Fear & Distrust with Kelly Ventura TRB#20 Part 2

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What happens when our deepest wounds collide with our deepest spiritual longings? This soul-stirring conversation between Kathy Chastain and Kelly Ventura delves into the profound connection between childhood attachment wounds and our ability to trust God.

The wounds of abandonment and rejection don't just affect our human relationships—they fundamentally alter how we perceive and approach God. Through personal stories and therapeutic insights, Kathy and Kelly unpack how these core wounds manifest as fear, perfectionism, and the constant feeling of not being enough. When someone grows up with unavailable caregivers or experiences criticism and exclusion, their internal framework for understanding love becomes distorted. God becomes seen as distant, punitive, or untrustworthy rather than the loving Father described in scripture.

What makes this episode particularly powerful is its honesty about the challenges of vulnerability. Kelly shares how imposter syndrome affects even ministry leaders, while Kathy reveals a moment when she desperately needed God to show up and feared losing her faith entirely. Their candid admissions create space for listeners to acknowledge their own struggles without shame. The discussion offers practical first steps for anyone hesitant to trust again—finding a private space, starting with just five minutes of focused prayer, and recognizing that God meets us exactly where we are.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider with your
host, kathy Chastain.
Christian-based psychotherapistand Redeemed Backslider.
This podcast is dedicated tothose who have wandered but are
ready to return to thelife-changing power of grace and
the freedom found in Jesus.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider.
I'm your host, kathy Chastain.
I'm a Christian-basedpsychotherapist and I'm a
Redeemed Backslider.
With me today in the studio ismy colleague, kelly Ventura, who
is a pastoral counselor andcoach, and we're going to pick
up where we left off in episodeone about the loss of innocence,

(00:47):
healing the whole person.
But before we do, I just want tosay to everybody that watches
thank you for watching and goingthrough the analytics, it looks
like 46% of you guys have notsubscribed.
So you probably hear this.
If you watch YouTube very often, if you subscribe and like our

(01:10):
videos, it actually distributesit more into the whole YouTube
world, which allows us to reachmore viewers, which allows us to
hopefully reach morebacksliders.
So if you are a returninglistener, if you could please
like and subscribe our channel,that would help us a lot, but
mostly it will help the kingdomof the Lord if we can reach the

(01:34):
backsliders.
So with that, we're going tojust jump right in and we're
going to pick up where we leftoff.
Last week, we talked about thewhole person and the different
types of attachment that existin all of our lives and how that
could potentially affect ourwalk with God, and so we're

(01:55):
going to recap for you today.
Kelly, you want to recap whatit means to be the whole person.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
Sure, well, we talked about bringing our whole and
let me just say too.
So if you're watching, we weretalking about this before we
came on the podcast If you arewatching, you notice I have a
black shirt on.
It is not the same black shirt.
It has been several days, infact.
It is a Saturday now.
So if you're watching, you'llsee that I have actual, you know
like a little five o'clockshadow here.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Watching, you'll see that I have actual, you know
like a little five o'clockshadow here, so it is Saturday
morning.
I asked him when he came in hey, did you wear a black shirt
last week?

Speaker 3 (02:35):
And I did, and I you know, if you look at my closet I
have.
You know, the color palette inmy closet is of a 19th century
melodrama villain.
So it's pretty much black isall that I have.
So, anyway, black and t-shirts.
My wife loves it.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
So I made him self-conscious because he had
black on again.
So now I'm self-conscious.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
Now I'm completely thrown out of the podcast.
Sorry, but no, bringing yourwhole person to God body, soul,
mind and spirit and we weretalking specifically in terms of
salvation when we talked aboutyou know, god, you know, fills
our spirit, saves our soul.
But we bring our whole entireperson, body, also to God as

(03:15):
well.
And, you know, bringing thesethings to God.
We have to understand that,even though we are quote-unquote
saved right, or even though weare quote unquote saved right,
or even if we are in a positionwhere we feel like we've stepped
away from our faith or fallenaway from our faith, or however
you want to term it, we stillrealize that we have these.

(03:38):
God has to realize that we havethese struggles right In our
mind, in our body, in ourspirits.
That even though and one of theamazing things for me is that,
even though we have thesestruggles we body, soul, mind
and spirit we have these things.
Whether it's been wounds fromattachments or whatever the case
might be, god's love is stillpure to us.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
Right.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
And he loves us as the whole person.
But then then we startedtalking about uh, last time
about attachments also, do youwant to kind of recap kind of
the different attachments?

Speaker 2 (04:13):
yeah.
So, um, you know, when we're,when we come into this world, we
are created perfect.
You know we are an innocent,clean slate, that nothing is
written on us exceptgenerational bloodlines which
we'll get in later.
But we come into this world asa clean slate and so we are

(04:36):
partly formed by nature ornurture nature being our biology
, what we brought in from ourparents, right, and then also
nurture, which is ourenvironment that we are molded
in.
And that's where attachmentkind of comes into play.
If we have a wonderful lovinghome with attentive parents,

(05:00):
intentional parents, then wehave secure attachment.
We grow up feeling secure.
We have a ton of ability tohave resilience in distress.
We easily can manage emotionsbecause we have a secure base.

(05:20):
Then we have avoidant attachment, anxious attachment and
disorganized attachment, and allof those are rooted in the
different kind of environmentsthat we're molded in, right.
So disorganized is when parentsare both loving and abusive and
the child gets very confused bythat.

(05:43):
And the child gets veryconfused by that.
Avoidant often comes from whenthere's been emotional neglect
and physical neglect.
Your just needs as an infantand toddler are not getting met
at all.
So there's no way to attachemotionally or to feel safe and

(06:03):
secure because the rest of yourneeds aren't getting met.
And then there's anxiousattachment, and anxious
attachment often comes fromabandonment, where a caregiver
or parent has left, not beenavailable emotionally, or
there's been divorce or even adeath emotionally, or there's

(06:29):
been divorce or even a death,and so all of these ways that
our parents or caregiverinteracted it could even be a
grandparent really has an effecton us as a whole person.
And so with that we're going totalk about how those attachment
styles, how they sort of funneldown into two basic wounds and

(06:51):
I would say, from a mentalhealth perspective, most
diagnoses can be rooted in thesetwo wounds.
Kelly, what would you say thoseare?

Speaker 3 (07:06):
I would say abandonment and rejection.
And I think that when we talkabout abandonment, I think that
when people have that wound, Ithink that when they come to
church or when they're in churchor they're exposed to church, I

(07:28):
think that they see everyonearound them, they feel the
presence of God, they feel allthese wonderful things.
But for some reason sometimesit's kind of like if I have that
wound of abandonment, is mychurch family going to leave me
too?
Are they going to give up on metoo?
If I'm not perfect, you know,are you know?

(07:49):
Is god going to give up on me?
right, you know everyone elseleft me.
It's not a question, you know,sometimes in their minds, right,
it's not a question of, uh, ifthey leave me, right, it's, when
will they leave me?
And I think rejection comes in,especially too, in the church.
I think it comes in when peopleassume or they think, you know,

(08:11):
am I good enough?
And again, it's not a when,it's an, if it's, you know, when
I am rejected, you know it'sgoing to be inevitable right.
It doesn't leave, you know, itdoesn't leave space for grace,
it doesn't leave space for anyof those kinds of things in your
life.
But people kind of have thosethoughts that kind of prevent

(08:33):
them sometimes from connectingwith God, connecting with others
, and yeah, that kind of is someof the things that I've seen,
yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
So I want to just sort of talk about where some of
this can come from.
So I hear, you know, in thecounseling practice a lot of
people will say, well, I had agood childhood.
You know, I don't reallyremember anything too bad.
I mean, clearly, if there'sovert abuse, people will

(09:03):
remember that.
But a lot of people grow up inhouseholds where divorce
occurred but they'll saysomething like, oh, I don't
really remember.
Or I know my parents fought alot, but I don't really remember
, or whatever.
You know and we talked aboutthis last time divorce.
I think divorce is a hugelyunderestimated trauma that kids

(09:30):
go through.
And if 51% of America aredivorced and 51% of marriages
have ended in divorce, there isoften an abandonment wound and
or a rejection wound, and I'veseen both.
And so abandonment occurs whenthere is through experience or

(09:59):
perception, and perception ishuge because, you know, I tell
this example all the time I cansay that this wall is green, but
you know, the person sittingacross from me can say that this
wall is stage or olive green.
And so the way we see thingsand the way we perceive things

(10:21):
and the the you know semanticsthat we use to discuss this can
all create tons ofmiscommunication and confusion,
and so perception is huge, andso it is the real life
experience or perception ofbeing left behind emotionally or
physically by someone who wasexpected to love you, right.

(10:47):
Right, because what that leavesis the feeling that I'm not
loved, Right.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
Or I don't matter Right.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Right, and so the core experience could be feeling
alone, feeling forgotten ordiscarded, which creates a fear
of being left again.
Hyper-vigilance inrelationships that often
manifest as clinginess,codependency, emotional

(11:17):
withdrawal to protect againstloss.
So that's that person who, whenthey get a boyfriend or they
get a girlfriend, they break upfirst.
They're going to break up withyou before you can break up with
me.
But the root cause is loss of acaregiver through death, divorce
, incarceration, addiction and Iwould say incarceration is a

(11:43):
big deal, especially in our areabecause of the area that we
live in but also addiction.
Addiction is rampant, Even inthe church.
Addiction is rampant and when aperson comes from a home like
that, the caregiver might bepresent physically, but they're

(12:06):
not present really in any otherways, and so some symptoms of
abandonment can be fear ofintimacy, and that is huge.
Right, Like I'll get close toyou, but only so far.
You want to talk about that,Kelly?

Speaker 3 (12:25):
Yeah, no.
And I think what happens too isthat fear of abandonment kind
of drives an internal monologueinside of us.
Sometimes it says you know, ifI'm perfect, then they won't
leave me.
And I think it kind of createsthis desire inside of people to

(12:50):
overcommit, to overdo it, tostress, especially in the church
, to stress you know, I'm goingto be perfect, I'm going to do
all of these things, nevermind,it's not tearing my family apart
, but you know I'm being pulledaway from my family, being
pulled away from my family apart, but I'm being pulled away from
my family, being pulled awayfrom my loved ones.
But I'm going to overcommitbecause I've got to be perfect,

(13:11):
right, because if I'm perfect,other people are going to love
me and if I'm perfect, thenGod's going to love me.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
Right, right, perfectionism shows that, both
in abandonment and rejection,and it's huge and that's rude
and shame.
And, like we said last time,all that is so interconnected.
We're going to get to shame inour next episode, because what I
want to sort of help peopleunderstand and convey is how all

(13:39):
of this is affecting our mind,our emotions.
This is affecting our mind, ouremotions, our physical flesh
and our spirit.
Right, because most of whathappens in childhood is felt, it
is experienced, and based onthat experience, I'm going to

(14:02):
have an instinctive reaction onthat experience.
I'm going to have aninstinctive reaction.
So for me and this shows up herethis is where we get into fight
, flight or freeze.
So for me, I was morerebellious when I got hurt or
people left or my needs didn'tget met.

(14:23):
I fought back right.
Other people they freeze orthey fight or they leave.
But when they freeze theybecome super passive.
Often those people are rulefollowers.
Often those people are peoplepleasers.
People are rule followers.
Often those people are peoplepleasers because they're just

(14:46):
trying to do whatever they cando to get back to a decent place
of connectedness.
And often those thoughts in ourminds which has formed belief
systems, no one's sitting herethinking, oh, I'm acting this
way because of my childhood.

Speaker 3 (15:04):
They're just very subconsciously responding.
Yeah, no, that's very true, andI think that that panic
sometimes and fear creates us orcauses us rather to kind of go
into that paralysis, analysis oranalysis, paralysis.
Right, we're so in our headsometimes that we can't make

(15:26):
that next move, and so we justdo that freeze maneuver and we
kind of become passive, right,yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:34):
Right, so.
So what you know?
So abandonment, do a face.
I think I said common symptoms,bear of intimacy, being alone,
anxiety, distrust,over-functioning, trying to earn
love which I think is what youwere saying, kelly, um, and and

(15:56):
a feeling of panic or despairwhen somebody leaves or someone
that they value or want.
Right, we're going to get intothe faith based piece in a
second, but let's go through therejection wound because I think
we're going to break down howboth of these lead to a very

(16:18):
fear based response system.
Right, okay, so fear.
Right Okay, so fear.
So rejection, let's see, holdon, sorry, let me look at my
note.

(16:51):
Rejection wound is the emotionalpain resulting from being
excluded, unwanted or judged asunworthy, whether overtly
through bullying or betrayal, orsubtly through a lack of
affirmation or a lack of or ahyper sense of criticism.
So if, let's, you're the kidthat grows up and I've seen this
and it's devastating how muchbullying affects a whole person
throughout their entire lifethey could have a secure home,

(17:13):
attachment, wonderful parents,but they go to kindergarten and
they get bullied because theyhave red hair, or they're just a
little bit chubby, or maybethey're a little skinny, or

(17:48):
maybe the girl is just too tallin elementary school, or maybe
the girl begins to developprematurely, before the rest of
her classmates do, or whatever.
The boy has facial hair tooearly, or the boy is too short,
like there's so many reasonsthat kids get bullied.
That creates a rejection wound,which creates an identity
crisis, and so um, yeah, sorejection, um, has its own
fallout, but, um, but that ideaof being unwanted, that could
even come in the womb.
And I've seen this where parentshave wanted to abort their

(18:10):
child and then chose at the lastminute to keep the child.
Somehow that parent mistakenly,wrongly, communicates that to
the kiddo.
Right, and even though theyknow the parent loves them, in
their mind they still have thisunderlying belief yeah, but they
didn't want me, and so thatquestion always exists.

(18:31):
Or you have the kid I've seenthis, too, where you have a
sibling that gets straight A'sand is the athlete, and the
other sibling doesn't get verygood grades and is not the
athlete, but they're reallycreative and very expressive,
and so comparison, or you havethe parental figure that's

(18:55):
hypercritical, like all of thesethings and so many more that we
don't have time to discusscreates rejection.
So, kelly, how does that, howdoes all of that really create a
fear, and what areas?
If we look at interpersonalrelationship, social

(19:18):
relationship and workrelationships, if we're just
looking at those basics, how doyou think this stuff shows up in
fear for those peopleinteracting in life?

Speaker 3 (19:31):
Yeah, I think that feeling unwanted and having that
feeling inside of you, I thinkthat is one of, in my opinion,
one of the major drivers ofimposter syndrome.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
Can you elaborate on imposter syndrome?
I think people may be familiar,but elaborate on that.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
Right, it's just this feeling of I don't have what it
takes to be here, and prettysoon somebody's going to figure
that out.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, like calling you know we used to say that out
.
Yeah, like uh calling you knowwe used to say calling BS on
somebody, exactly yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
But it's this, it's this, uh, it's this fear that
has been imposed on us, that,for whatever reason, because
we're unwanted, that, um, youknow, I'm unwanted in this
position.
Whatever it might be, I mightbe a CEO, I might be a CFO, I
might well, let's just talkabout being a preacher yeah, I'm
.
It happens in in ministry aswell.
You know, uh, if you're aminute in ministry and you may

(20:30):
have had that in your past, youknow god helps us and and prayer
is something that um can helpus connect to god's divine plan
and god's divine love for us,and we understand all that.
But sometimes there's thatstuff that kind of just comes up
and sometimes having thatimposter syndrome in ministry is

(20:53):
kind of like here's what it isin ministry.
It's like I don't have what ittakes to be here, or for
whatever reason, because of mybackground, I should not be here
, you know.
Or I, for whatever reason,because of my background, my
background, I should not be here.
And all of those things areuntrue but they are, in a

(21:15):
spiritual sense, in a positivespin on it, they are true as
well.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
Right, no, you don't.
I love that.

Speaker 3 (21:23):
You don't have what it takes to be here because of
God's grace.
Right, you are here and youknow Paul says, you know,
nothing's going to separate usfrom the love of God.
You know the gifts and callingof God are without repentance.
So once you're there, you'rethere and God has given you that
gift, right?
And so sometimes they feel likeyou know, like somebody's going

(21:47):
to figure out that I don't have.
Somebody's going to figure outthat you have a story, a
background.
Somebody's going to figure outthat, yes, you have a we call
them testimonies right, you havea reason for why God has you
have a story and that has drivenyou to where you are now, put
you where you are now and putyou where you are now.
So sometimes we look atimposter syndrome in ministry as

(22:07):
a bad thing, and I guess it canbe if we kind of let it take us
down a negative path, right.
But I say, flip it on its headsometimes and go.
No, you're right, I don't havewhat it takes to be here, except
by God's grace.
That's why I'm here.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yeah, and I love what you said, because sometimes two
things can be true at the sametime.
Right, and I think that wedon't always stop to realize
that I can be.
You know, I flunked out of highschool, that is true.
My little GED hangs on my wallwith my master's degree because

(22:44):
I'm such a late bloomer.
But I never forget where I'vebeen, you know, and so it is.
Both of those things can betrue.
I did flunk out of high schooltotally.

Speaker 3 (22:59):
I barely passed high school, but I also, you know,
fixed it but.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
I also, you know, fixed it.
And so I remember when I was inthe fitness industry for many
years, before I changed careers,and my girlfriend worked for
one of the cosmetic surgeonshere and she says, hey,
so-and-so needs a personaltrainer.

(23:22):
You know, I told him about you,he wants you to train him.
And I was like that impostersyndrome just completely hit me,
because I had certificates todo what I was doing and I knew
what I was doing but I couldn'ttell you anatomy, because at
that time I hadn't even been tocollege.

(23:42):
I couldn't tell you what boneswere connected to this and what
muscle was connected to this.
And I was terrified.
I'm like I'm going to be in asurgeon's home training them.
And what if he asks me whichabdominal muscle are we working?
Right now I would not be ableto tell him.

Speaker 3 (24:03):
You don't know, I mean.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
I knew the basics but I didn't know the intricacies
Right.
And I remember I just thought,you know cause, believe it or
not, I still, I still prayed andtalked to God.
I'm like, well, I'm going toshow up, I'm going to say, yes,
I'm going to show up and I'mjust going to be me and do what
I know to do.
And I'm just going to be me anddo what I know to do.

(24:27):
But that is where that fight,flight, freeze comes in.
That's where, if a person'snatural tendency is to move into
fear and just avoid itcompletely because they're
afraid, someone's going to callyou out on what you don't know.
I mean, it's huge.
Imposter syndrome is huge.

(24:49):
And I think, for ministryleaders, because we're human,
right, we all know who we areand hopefully we are living a
sanctified life Right, hopefullywe are living a sanctified life
Right.
But there are still things thatcome against us.

(25:11):
And so if we're in a valley,you know, and you've got to get
up and preach about praise ortalk about joy, because you
speak what you need right, youplant seeds for what you need to
grow, it would be verydisconcerting, it would be very

(25:32):
difficult.
So I think that all of this isabout fear and always going back
to that place where it kind ofexists.

Speaker 3 (25:43):
Yeah, and then there's all you, when talking
about you know, that sort ofdisconnect that you feel, um,
when you are preaching something, um, and I need to inspire
people because you know theywant and they need to.
You know, whatever they need topraise, they need to.

Speaker 2 (26:01):
you know I need to talk to them about prayer or
encouragement or whatever thecase might be, or God gives you
a message about something you'renot feeling at all, but you
have to be obedient.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
Been there, done that , bought the t-shirt and burned
it, but yeah, I have been thereand so, having that in your head
, in ministry you've got to go.
Okay, this is not maybenecessarily where I am.
When I first started out,started out ministry, I
understood none of this, but youhave to kind of go okay, this
is.
This may not be where I amright now, but this is where the

(26:33):
people would need to be rightnow.
This is where God's people wantto be, need to be right now and
then you just become a vesseland at that point you are the
conduit.
Yeah, you know by which, and,and, and, and.
So sometimes I think evenpeople listening when you look
at ministry in your life.
Keep that in mind.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
And Kelly.
So how hard would that be,knowing that, okay, god gave me
this word, I have to deliver it.
And I don't feel any of it.
I don't feel worthy, I can'teven you it.
I don't feel worthy, I can'teven you know, I'm not here
emotionally.
Like what do you think that?

(27:13):
What do you think ministry goesthrough in terms of having to
overcome that?
And as you answer, I want youto specifically talk about our
will to what we choose.
The dichotomy of emotion.

(27:35):
Right, I'm not feeling it.
This is what I have, thedifficult, what you have to
overcome in order to be obedientto the Lord in that way.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
I think, once we get to the point where we realize
and we think okay, I don't feelthis and I'm not feeling, I'm
not at this place.
I'm struggling with this.
All these things are battlingagainst me.
We have to get to the pointwhere, in ministry oh well, I
say we I had to get to the pointin ministry where God just said

(28:05):
you know what, kelly, yes,you're struggling and you and I
are going to figure this outtogether.
But at this point it's almostlike a soldier mentality, right.
It's like.

Speaker 2 (28:16):
Elaborate on that.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
It's like you.
You know, a soldier is going tofeel fear, he's going to feel
anxiety, he's going to feel allthese things.
Of course, my dad's a Marine,and Marines aren't supposed to
feel all those things.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
If you're watching on YouTube.
We had some technicaldifficulties with our camera, so
I will not be on the rest ofthe episode, but we have some
great graphics for you to lookat in my absence and the audio
will continue, so we apologizethey're going to feel all those
things going in.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
But at some point there has to be that
understanding.
I am defending country.
I'm defending whatever the casemight be right.
There's a higher calling towhat I'm doing it's about the
unit and purpose right and soand so in.
It's the exact same thing.
Part of dying out to self isnot just dying out to is dying

(29:11):
out to our flesh and our desires.
That's part of it.
But it's also dying out to whoI think I am and what.
I'm struggling with and to putthat aside and go right now.
You know God and I are going totake care of this.
I'm assuming again, right,we're living a life that's
pleasing to God, but we all arehumans and we struggle with

(29:31):
stuff, right?

Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
We have struggles with thoughts and imposter
syndromes and all these things,but at some point it's got to be
like okay, god, we're going totake care of this later.
Right now, god's people need tobe, you know, hot.
You know God's people need tobe inspired.
God's people need direction,god's people need all these
things, and so I think that Godis saying you know what I called

(29:53):
you to do this.
How you feel right now.
This is harsh, but sometimes wehave to get to the point where
how I'm feeling right now isimmaterial, weighed against how
people are going to be affectedby what I have to say that God
gave me.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good.

Speaker 3 (30:14):
That's part of dying out to ourself too yeah.
Yeah, and dying out to how wethink it should happen, how I
should show up, how I should beand how I should be worthy.
It's part of that mentalchecklist in our head.
As long as we've done all thesethings, then I'm worthy.
But like Jeff Arnold preachedyears ago he preached that
message God is greater than ourheart and knows all things.

(30:37):
But if our heart condemns usnot, then we think we're great,
right.
But if our heart condemns us,oh, god's greater than our heart
and knows all things, right,right.
But if our heart condemns us,oh god's greater than our heart
and knows all things, um.
But in actuality we have torealize that you know, um, when
we get up to speak, you know godknows us, yeah, and god's going
to use us anyway right in spite, in spite of right, where we've

(31:00):
been and what we've done, yeahand so, yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
And so you know, when it comes to wounds this is a
huge burden of mine is I've saidit before it Lord really comes
in and does a work in a person'sheart, and so a lot of times we

(31:36):
, just when we come fromdifficulty, when we come from
things that hurt us, oftenpeople are operating from a
place of emotion, and emotion iswhat dictates their life.
If I'm angry, I'm going to actangry.
If I'm sad, I'm going to actsad, and every decision that I

(31:59):
make along the way is going tobe based on what I feel.
And when we come into a placeof healing with the Lord God
heals our emotions and ourthought processes we begin to
then make decisions based onwhat is true, not what we feel,

(32:22):
and that's a little bit of ajourney.
And so, you know, commonsymptoms from people that have
been rejected are peoplepleasing and perfectionism,
which we've already said.
Uh, self rejection, beatingyourself up, telling yourself,

(32:44):
you know, oh, I'm just this, or,or I'm that, or I'm not good
enough, or I'm too fat, I'm tooskinny, I'm don't seem good
enough, I'm, you know, not smartenough, all the not enough
things that we can then walk ina place of extreme guilt and
condemnation have been raised inor have gone to I'm trying to

(33:15):
say this delicately a churchthat lacks the Spirit of God and
maybe lacks the fruit of theSpirit.
If you don't have a shepherd whois really loving the sheep, who
is really there to encouragethe sheep and to you know, help,

(33:39):
lift you up the rules, and theminute you don't do the rule,
they're condemning you.
It is very easy for the enemyto come in and create that

(34:02):
condemnation in your thoughtsand a person will live in
extreme guilt, and especiallyfor people growing up in church.
That's a lot of what happened.
People growing up in church,that's a lot of what happened.
That is a lot of reason whybacksliders left is because they
were just expected to besomething and we bypass the

(34:26):
healing process that actuallycomes from the work that Jesus
did on the cross right, and sowe're only addressing sometimes
in church, not our church.
I always say that but sometimesin church and I think it's just
kind of a lack of understanding.

(34:46):
This isn't for every church,but sometimes in church they're
only dealing with the soul of aperson, which is the mind, will
and emotions.
They're only dealing with thespirit of a person to get saved,
to get you to heaven.
They're not dealing with thewhole, complete person of who

(35:09):
that person is and how theybehave out of these issues of
life that they have livedthrough right.
So we have people that come inthat's been in prison, who I
mean, I've known a lot of peoplewho have been in prostitution,
human trafficking.
It is way more common, way morecommon than what we ever realize

(35:33):
, especially in a church culture, because church cultures don't
talk about that stuff.
But you have these people thatcome in that are having all of
this real lived experience andsometimes, if we're not
sensitive to the Spirit of God,we're not really addressing that
.
We're not sensitive to thespirit of God, we're not really
addressing that.
We're just telling them getcleaned up and just get on the

(36:00):
train and live for God.
It just isn't that simple.

Speaker 3 (36:03):
Yeah, and while the outside, I think, is important,
I think it's again the two ideasright, again the two ideas
right.
It's the.
At the end of the day, thespirit of God is the.
In my view and I've said itbefore to people is the spirit
of God is the great regulator.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:24):
Right, talk about that.
So it helps us with all ofthese things.
We talk about emotionalregulation, right, and how to
not be like you were sayingmanage your emotions, manage
your emotions before they manageyou, right, or to regulate
those, or to make sure thatthey're not taking over every
decision, like you were talkingabout every decision that you're

(36:46):
making.
And I think that the Spirit ofGod being this great regulator
is because he, you know, theSpirit of God fills our spirit,
saves our soul, affects ourentire person.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
Right.

Speaker 3 (37:01):
We can bring all of those emotions that are really
emotions are just those reallylike dashboard indicator lights,
that hey you got to take careof something you know underneath
, here, right, and what thatlooks like is taking those
emotions to God in prayer andgoing.

(37:22):
God, I need your help with this.
I'm feeling anxious about mymarriage.
I'm feeling anxious about myrelationship with a loved one.
I'm feeling all of these things.
I need you to help me regulatethrough that.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
Right, and you and I know that.

Speaker 3 (37:38):
Right, you and I know that.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
God will take care of that.
But what about the people whodon't know that, or the people
who backsliders, in particular,who had really negative
experiences both at home andthen in the church?
How do we bridge that gap forthem to where they can begin to
see God like that?

(38:00):
Because what do you think theirability to trust God is like,
or where do you think theirplaces of fear is?
That prevents them from beingable to take that step in prayer
, or even in vulnerability, toapproach the Lord.

Speaker 3 (38:22):
I think, ultimately it's a fear of being judged,
because fear frames God more asa judge rather than a redeemer,
and religion does that too,right, right.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
I mean, we can either be heavy on grace and we teach
about a God who never judges,who never is righteous you, know
the righteous judge or we canteach about a God who is so holy
and he is all of that is trueis so holy that unless we both.

(39:01):
But what would you say to themindset where you have someone
that only sees God as the judge,the one up in heaven, pointing

(39:23):
the finger at you, saying you'renot this, you didn't do this
right, you've done too manythings, or if you come back, you
have to do all of these things.
What would you say to that?

Speaker 1 (39:37):
You know, and it's like where is?

Speaker 2 (39:38):
that coming from in them.

Speaker 3 (39:40):
Well, that's again.
That's coming from a place of afear of being judged, because I
want.
You know, somehow they got intheir head, you know, somehow we
get in our heads right that ifI am this way then I am good.
But we have to understand thatGod, I have to understand that

(40:02):
God loved us before we quoteunquote got good.
So that love, regardless ofwhere we find ourselves in our
walk, that love is still there.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
Okay, so I know that logically, but I didn't have
that growing up Not me, I did.
But what if I'm a person wholived in survival mode all of my
life and I don't feel safe andI didn't experience safety in

(40:34):
love, like how, what, whatthoughts and what emotions am I
going to have to overcome inorder to get to know God in this
way?

Speaker 3 (40:49):
Yeah, it is going to come from being able to, and it
doesn't necessarily have tohappen with anyone else, but
just a time with you and Godalone, because everyone,
regardless of where we're at inour life, we have those times
where we talk to God.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
Right.

Speaker 3 (41:10):
And to be able to understand and go.
Okay, what I say to people thatfeel that way is I say that God
loves you in your mostvulnerable moment.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Do you know how to be vulnerable?

Speaker 3 (41:28):
It's difficult.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
Yes, right.

Speaker 3 (41:45):
But to be able to tell, to show your deepest fears
.
Yes, right, where we go tochurch used to say you know
going God everything.
He used to use the phrase wartsand all right.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
Meaning all the bad stuff that I struggle with and
all the stuff that happened inmy past.
All of these things that I canbring to God and go here it is.
It takes courage.
It doesn't have to happen in achurch setting.
It doesn't have to happen inanything that's really great.
It can happen in your livingroom and go God.

(42:18):
Maybe it's been a while sinceyou've reached out to him, but
go God.
These are all the things, rightthat the judgment that man put
on you, god is never going toput on you.
Right, right, right.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
And you know, we don't really know that until we
decide.

Speaker 3 (42:49):
Right, we have to get to a point, right we?

Speaker 2 (42:50):
had to get to a point .
We decide to give God a chance,you know, because I think no
matter what and I've said thisbefore on the podcast you know
people are going to get it wrong, they're going to disappoint

(43:11):
you and they're going to say thewrong things, hurt feelings,
but most of the time it iscompletely unintentional.
You know.
A person's heart is not meantto do that necessarily, right?
It's just that when we are,when we come from an abandonment
wound or a rejection wound, ourlens has already become

(43:32):
distorted.
It goes back to confirmationbias.
I'm going to begin to seethrough this lens of what I
believe to be true already aboutmyself, or what I believe to be
true about the world around me,about relationships, about God,
about ministry, aboutChristians.

(43:53):
Right, Because we get accusedall the time of being hypocrites
and I would say, yeah, okay,but it's not on purpose, because
there's a big difference andthere are hypocrites for sure,
that is intentionally livingdouble lives, but I would say

(44:13):
the majority of Christians whoare really endeavoring to pursue
God, they're just doing thebest they can with what they
have.

Speaker 3 (44:25):
Right and there's hypocrisy, is not?
We often think of hypocrisy asbeing unique to the church.
It's not, it's not it'shypocrisy is in the corporate
world.
Hypocrisy is you know how manytimes, you know, have we ever
heard of someone being, you know, insider trading or something
like that?
Yeah, hypocrisy is, is iseverywhere, uh, and so.

(44:49):
I think when we realize thathypocr, at least in my head that
helps me go okay.
So hypocrisy is not about God.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
Right.

Speaker 3 (44:59):
Hypocrisy is about the human and just kind of mess
things up.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
Yeah, and you know, I think that when a person comes
from a place of fear you knowwhen, when I'm working with a
client and let's say they'restruggling with anxiety or
depression or anger orresentment, or hurt or sorrow,

(45:27):
any of those things sofrequently it can be drilled
down into either fear or the notbeing good enough narrative and
sometimes they're the sameright but at the root of it is
fear, which does not come fromGod.

(45:49):
But if I am afraid to beexposed, if I am afraid to be
vulnerable, if I am afraid togive God a chance, because my
perception of him has been oneof judgment, or I've seen this

(46:11):
too, where God didn't show up, Isaw a kiddo whose dad died
right in front of them and thatkiddo prayed that God would save
the dad and let him live, andthe dad died, and that kiddo has

(46:34):
a very distinctive memory ofasking God to save his dad and
then he didn't, you know.
And so people have theseexperiences that prevent them
from, you know, risking thattrust again, being able to take

(46:58):
that risk and trust.
I remember one time and Icannot remember the
circumstances, but I rememberwhere I lived and I remember
being on my hands and knees,desperate for God.
And the way that I explain thisis you know, and I don't I

(47:22):
can't remember if I had alreadyrededicated my life or not.
I think I had.
Yeah, I think I had.
But I just really needed God toshow up and I literally felt
like I was on hopelessness and afear.
You cannot see any hope beyondthat.

(48:01):
And I remember telling God ifyou do not show up and I didn't
really have a specific way Ineeded him to show up, I just
knew I needed something.
I didn't really have a specificway I needed him to show up, I
just knew I needed something andfeeling like my ability to have
faith would forever bejeopardized.

(48:22):
And that was just the emotionalfeelings that I was having at
that time.
But I remember I just prayeduntil I couldn't pray anymore
and I got up, dusted myself off,metaphorically speaking and I
went about my day and I remembera couple hours later the load

(48:46):
had lifted and there was notanything that happened.
There was not anyearth-shattering moment that
proved God came in and rescuedthe day.
My circumstances didn't change.
I didn't have any aha moment,but there was a marked change in

(49:10):
the peace that I felt and itwas enough to be okay to keep
going.
Again, I wasn't suicidal, but Iwas afraid that I would lose
faith, you know, and so I knowthat people very much live in

(49:32):
these crossroads and thesedichotomies.
They really want to trust God,they really want to approach him
and believe, but they justdon't know how.

Speaker 3 (49:47):
And often it is because there is a deeper wound
in our, in our, the way we seethe world, and in our emotions,
you know, and just overall inlife, and sometimes in our flesh
through disease, throughaccidents, through all sorts of

(50:08):
things and I think that,ultimately, you know wherever
we're at, whatever, whatever,when, wherever, however, we're
perceiving God, or, or whateverthe case might be, I think that,
ultimately, you know whereverwe're at, whatever, whatever,
when, wherever, however, we'reperceiving god, or whatever the
case might be, I think thatultimately, uh, there is a
moment where I don't thinkthere's just one moment that god
says I'm just going to give youone, one opportunity.
But I think there's sometimesthat there's that moment that

(50:29):
comes to us like, like you,right, I'm at the edge of this
cliff.
So sometimes situations in ourlives force us to get to that
moment.
Sometimes we make that choiceto say this is the moment right.
Right, sometimes you knowthings happen in life and we're
like you know what, this is themoment right.

(50:49):
But I think, ultimately, wehave to go okay, we have to make
that choice in our mind and inour spirit and go okay, I know
what my past has been, I knowwhat, how, I have you got in the
past, and all that comes intoplay and all that is a factor.

(51:12):
I'm not dismissing that.
I'm just saying we bring all ofthat with us once we make that
decision to go.
Okay, I'm going to make thatone step, and it could be that
one prayer that you pray rightand nothing big happens, not a
lot.
I have found that the mostsignificant moments spiritually

(51:33):
in my life have not been the big.
You know, somebody comes andgives you the word or something
like that and that's this bigboom.
You know, it has just been inthe.
I prayed, got up, wentthroughout my day, had forgotten
that I had prayed about X orABCD or whatever the case might

(51:53):
be right and all of a sudden itall falls into place.
I'm like, oh cool, it fell intoplace.
And God's like, yeah, remembermorning when you prayed or
yesterday when you prayed aboutthis.
Yeah, that's me taking controlof this.
That's me answering.
I prayed once when I was ayoung minister.
I went to a conference once andI was praying.
I was like God, you got to giveme a word.

(52:16):
You got to give me a word.
A lot of people do and a lot ofpeople get words, and that's
great.
And I was praying and had myhands lifted up and I was crying
out, I needed a word.
And Brother Mark Morgan comesover to me and I'm like, oh
great, here comes Mark Morgan.
Morgan comes over to me and I'mlike, oh great, here comes Mark
Morgan, you know he's going togive me the word that I need.

(52:37):
And he starts to pray for meand I'm like, all right, I'm
listening, I'm listening and hejust leans over.
He's a great friend of mine.
Now he leans over in my ear andhe goes God's already told you
what to do.
Now you just need to go doitbling.
And he left and I was like, ohokay, I guess I'm done, you know

(52:57):
, uh.
So it's kind of like those kindof moments that I once I got to
know him better and I did somework for him and got to know him
and the family and stuff.
I asked him about that one day.
I was like, hey, you rememberthis.
He goes.
No, I don't remember that youknow, um, but it was one of
those moments where it was likewasn't anything big, wasn't
anything huge, it was just, andI knew exactly what he meant.

(53:20):
That was the funny part.
I knew exactly what he wastalking about.
So sometimes it's just thosemoments where it's like this is
not going to be a big moment,but it's going to be something
like you were saying you know, Ineed god right now yeah, yeah,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:33):
And when people come to the table wounded, it's
everything to them, and theimportance of our choice is huge
, because the whole reason Godgave us free will is so that we
would choose from a place ofknowing and a place of desiring,

(53:59):
and not from a place ofperformativeness.
God is not going to perform foryou, and so that sincerity and
that vulnerability has to really, really be there.
But you know, I would say that,ironically, trust is also built

(54:23):
in these moments, when you arewilling to risk and you're
willing to say you know, god man, I'm going to take this step,
because what if I'm wrong?
What if what I thought wasincorrect?
What if you really are who theBible says you are?

(54:45):
What if yeah.
Because there's all these whatifs.
On the negative, side.
Right, but there's also whatifs on the negative side, but
there's also what if it's on thepositive side.
Like you know what if God didcatch me, which he did that day?
You know what if God really canmake all things good in your

(55:05):
life?
What if God really can takeaway your fear and anxiety and
give you a purpose?

Speaker 3 (55:13):
We often think you know what if?
What if this is the absoluteworst thing that could possibly
happen to me?
You know, we flip that over andgo okay, what if this is the
absolute best thing that couldpossibly happen?
Right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
Yeah, and the and the enemy shows up.
Um, the enemy shows up in ourthoughts.
He shows up Our instinct andour fallen nature is negative
first, and so part of what welearn as we become Christians or
as we take another step towardsGod is I have to learn how to

(55:46):
rewire that and be aware.
Okay, my first instinct is this.
Someone told me once giveeverything 24 hours.
I use that all the time intherapy now, because if you give
everything 24 hours, you're notgoing to react out of instinct,
which often isn't always goingto be good.

(56:07):
It's going to allow you toreact out of intentionality, and
living for God, especially inthe beginning, is often out of
intentionality.
I am choosing, I'm choosing totry, I'm choosing to explore,

(56:29):
I'm choosing to trust.
And then, when you get theexperience of his love and his
peace that comes along with it,it makes it easy.
But we're not bumping upagainst the goodness of God,
we're bumping up against our ownfear and our own flesh and our
own ego and our own pride thatis preventing us from taking

(56:49):
that step with him.
Absolutely Yep, and that's thedying process, you know, and man
, our ego our ego will give us areally great fight.

Speaker 3 (57:02):
Most definitely, most definitely, yeah, and trying to
.
You know, come to those momentswhere everything it's difficult
, because everything around youis screaming do this, do that,
you know, take it into your ownhands and sometimes making that
step of trust, no matter howsmall it could just be, driving

(57:25):
in your car and going I need you, god, when I go to this meeting
, or I need you, god, you know,to do this, and he follows
through and does it.
You're open with him, you'revulnerable with him, right, and
I tell people kind of in couplescounseling as well, it's kind
of like you know, um, the moreyou are vulnerable with each
other, uh, the more trust willbe built between you, you know.

Speaker 2 (57:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:48):
Hey, I, I told someone my deepest, darkest
concern in life.
Right, I told this person that,and they did not, you know,
text it to their friends.
They didn't make fun of me,they didn't, you know, whatever.
Oh, okay, I have, then, alittle bit of trust to share, a
little bit more.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
So what's the principle in that?
Do you know?

Speaker 3 (58:10):
You're going to tell me.
I have a feeling in that?

Speaker 2 (58:17):
do you know?
You're gonna tell me I have afeeling.
Yeah, the principle is that wehave to take the first step and
then, and then we get to learnthat it's safe.
It doesn't become safe first,right, it becomes safe once you
it's's completely right,completely unsafe, which is
contrary to our need right,Especially if we have any kind

(58:39):
of wounds.
We are looking for safety andsecurity and God is asking you
to take a step first and trust.
And I was just going to saysomething and I lost my train of
thought, but it was going to begood.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
Well, I have a story about that too.
So my daughter was learning.
Well, she had already learnedhow to swim and she was learning
how to.
You know, there's a differencebetween swimming in the pool and
learning how to dive into thepool, right.
So she was learning how to diveinto the pool.
She's younger and she was.
She was actually in the pool atthe house that we're at now,
anyway pool at the house thatwe're at now, anyway.

(59:15):
So she was getting ready.
I just said jump in.
I said I'll catch you, and shewouldn't do it.
And she wouldn't do it.
She wouldn't do it.
And so trust and faith go handin hand.
So she was standing at the edgeof the pool.
She goes no, you're going todrop me.
And I said no, I'm not.
So finally she jumps into thepool.
I catch her, she swims back tothe edge and jumps again.
So she's got the trust thatsays she's got the trust that

(59:38):
says dad did it before.
So that gives me faith to swimback to the edge of the pool and
jump again.

Speaker 2 (59:46):
Right, right.
I was going to ask you todelineate between trust and
faith yeah, trust says god hasdone it in the past.
You know whether I read no, Imean using this, this example
with lauren in this example yeahin this example.

Speaker 3 (01:00:01):
So her trust was dad caught me because, why wait?

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
he did what he said he was going to do because she
loves you and because you haveshown up for her Right and
because she has relationshipwith you Right.
So that allows me the abilityto trust you, right?
Okay, and then that allows forfaith to take place.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
And I have to say, and you know this, I'm a little
bit of a smart aleck.
So I was tempted to not catchher Right and just let her see
what it felt like.
But then I thought, well thenI'm going to damage her trust
and her faith Correct For later,jumps Right.
So I didn't.
And she did the same thing overand over again.
And now you know, at that pointyou know, all she wanted to do
was jump off the edge of thepool.

(01:00:42):
Yeah, right, and so I thinkthat sometimes, um, knowing,
because no matter where we arein our journey, even if we have
walked away from our faith orfallen away from our faith,
however you want to term- it orin church struggling, or if
you're in church and you'restruggling.
absolutely, I think that, at theend of the day, I don't ever

(01:01:05):
think it's a question of whetheror not people love God.

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
Yeah right.

Speaker 3 (01:01:09):
So if we so, like in my story and you were mentioning
her love for me caused me to goDad did it before I love him
I'm going to go back and try itagain.

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
Yeah, but you know, using that analogy as well, like
, yeah, it's so convolutedbecause there's so many aspects
to fatherhood.
But you know, the bible saysour father in heaven if.
If a father on earth knows howto give good gifts to his

(01:01:42):
children, how much more will ourfather in heaven give?
But when we have a family whodoesn't have a good father that
gave them good gifts, there isno context to understand that.
They have to just simply decidewhether or not.
I'm going to try, you know.
And Brene Brown talks about theconcept of curiosity and I love

(01:02:04):
it because she says you know,when it comes to trust, when it
comes to shame, we have to getreally curious about ourselves,
start paying attention to thethings that make me tick.
I'm always a little bit sad atthe people that don't really

(01:02:32):
know themselves, don't reallyspend any time thinking about
what they think or payingattention to what they feel.
They just go through life onautomatic pilot, doing the same
routine all the time.
They're not really payingattention to who they actually
are, what they're actuallysaying, how they're reacting and

(01:02:52):
just going through the motions.
But if a person could reallyslow down and get curious, huh,
you know who am I really.
Why did I just you know haveroad rage right there?

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
Right.
Why am I thinking this?

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
Yeah, yes, and really look at that where the Lord is
concerned, or where churchculture is concerned, or where
Christians are concerned, orwhatever the case may be, that
is preventing a person fromreconnecting to God, because
however they reconnect to God,god will lead them into all

(01:03:28):
truth.
The Bible says, and so you know, if you could just get curious
and maybe rethink what are yourbeliefs about God?
Where did they come from?
How long ago was that?

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
You know and who are you today?
Right, what else could be true,you know?

Speaker 3 (01:03:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
Because we've all heard God is good.
And if you haven't experiencedthat, are you just a little bit
curious as to why we say that?
Because it's not hyperbole.

Speaker 3 (01:04:04):
No, and it's true.
And beliefs that get drilledinto us, sometimes when we're
younger, like you were talkingabout.
How long ago was that into us?
Sometimes, you know, when we'reyounger, like you're talking
about, how long ago was that?
Well, it's 30 years ago, when Iwas you know, yeah, you know, a
teenager or whatever.
Um, you've grown, you'vechanged, you've developed, you
right, you know new experiencesyeah, new lenses, yeah, um, okay

(01:04:28):
.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Well, I am a talker so I not quite done, but I feel
like we are wrapping up.
I'm going to read just a few ofthe notes about the way that
fear can frame our idea aboutGod.
So fear can become theframework for relationships.

(01:04:50):
Through hypervigilance, throughcontrol, we avoid hurt by
taking control of situations anddefensiveness, using distance
or aggression to self-protectourselves.
But how this would distort ourview of God would be God is seen

(01:05:12):
as distant, like he's way up inheaven and I'm way down here
and I can't quite access him.
Punitive, which we've talkedabout already.
Untrustworthy.
I can't trust him.
Our soul fears intimacy.
Again, that's about exposure.
Someone's really going to seeme and are they going to like

(01:05:34):
what they see?
If they really see me, what ifthey find out I'm not all these
things that I've reflectedmyself to be, even though we
long for that intimacy.
And the surrender feels superthreatening.
Ability to surrender feelssuper threatening.

Speaker 3 (01:05:56):
Because in our minds that vulnerability is not safe
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
Yeah, right, and then trust.
Trust is obviously theunworthiness.
Why would God love somebodylike me?
I don't really trust that Godwould love me.
I don't feel worthy that hewould.
The mindset can lead to feelingdisqualified from grace and a

(01:06:22):
need to strive to earn God'slove, which I have heard that I
don't know if you have in yourpractice with people, but people
feeling like they'redisqualified, like God can't
forgive them, god's grace can'textend to them, and you see
people that maybe they've beenin combat duty and they've had

(01:06:47):
to take a life, or lawenforcement officers I don't
know if they struggle with thatas much, but you know when, when
the behaviors are egregious,people can sometimes feel that
way that god's grace can'textend to them.
Right, um, and then um,difficulty to surrender, also

(01:07:12):
because of the pain of childhood, and it just further
contributes to a person'sability to approach God and that
could distort God's promises.
We may not be able tointellectually accept them.
Scripture might feel true forothers, but not true for us but

(01:07:36):
not true for us, and I hadsomeone actually say that to me
once.
I believe it and I've heardthis.
I believe God will heal them.
I just don't know that God willheal us, but it's the same
stripes.

Speaker 3 (01:07:49):
Right, exactly, and it's the same blood.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
It's the same thing, it's the same cross Right,
exactly, and it's the same blood.
It's the same thing.
You know, it's the same cross,yep, and he doesn't change right
.
But the distortion is rooted inour unworthiness, you know, and
that is actually anti-biblical,totally anti-biblical
Resistance to prayer.
You know, the inability totrust can cause us to resist

(01:08:14):
prayer.
Prayer and worship requireemotional closeness and
vulnerability, and so peoplethat have wounds cannot usually
access that, and so when you'retaking your, what would you say,
kelly, would be baby steps forsomebody who struggles with

(01:08:38):
emotional intimacy andvulnerability.

Speaker 3 (01:08:42):
As far as prayer is concerned.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
No, as far as taking a step towards God in general.

Speaker 3 (01:08:47):
Yeah, I would make it so that any step you're making,
whether that is prayer orwhether that is, whatever the
case might be any step thatyou're making, make it as a
private and so whatever yourmind is, that you feel like,

(01:09:13):
okay, this has to be safe andthis has to be right.
Okay, so get in a room byyourself where there's no one
else.

Speaker 1 (01:09:20):
Turn your phone off.

Speaker 3 (01:09:22):
All of these things that are going to come into your
mind and give you that mentalchecklist that, oh, I'm not this
, I'm not that, I'm not theother thing, so I can't do this.
Move all those things out andtake five minutes as a start and
just remove all of those thingsout of your consciousness.

(01:09:43):
Right, focus on him and I thinkas much as of the noise that we
can turn down or turn off.
I think that is the better.
That would be my first step.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
Yeah, and you know God meets, god will meet you
where you're at, if, if you area person, I think about somebody
I've seen at church for a longtime and I was very similar,
just super, just super.
You know, um armored up BreneBrown would call it the armor

(01:10:17):
that we wear because, for fearof of being vulnerable, um,
because we often can't bevulnerable with ourselves.
Admitting, admitting our ownbrokenness is so difficult for
us because it's grievous.

Speaker 3 (01:10:34):
And I would do that with someone too.
If you're going to open up likethat and talk about, one of the
things, too, that I wouldsuggest is, if you have a
difficulty doing it on your own,I would definitely sit with
someone and talk with them aboutthat too, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:50):
Or I cut you off there, that's okay, that's okay,
that's okay.
But God will meet us wherewe're at right.
And so if all you could do isdrive in your car on the way to
work or go sit outside on thegrass or get alone with the
lights off, whatever it is,whatever small step you can take

(01:11:13):
, the Lord knows your heart, hecreated you, he knows the number
of hairs on your head and hewill notice whatever small step
that you can take in order tomake your way back.
Because, at the end of the day,it's not about the church you

(01:11:35):
go to, it's not about how youclean up the outside.
It's about your relationshipwith the Lord.
God takes care of all the rest.
God will order your steps,he'll lead, guide and direct you
.
He will walk with you and teachyou His ways.

(01:11:57):
I didn't know a lot of thisstuff.
The Lord has just had to teachme through life experiences,
through my own brokenness and myown hurt and my own heartbreaks
hurt and my own.
you know heartbreaks, butthankfully I knew he loved me.

(01:12:18):
I just didn't know how to livein this world.
But so I just want to sort ofmake it easy for people out
there, because what peoplestruggle with today is very real
and very convoluted andcomplicated, right, and you have

(01:12:40):
to give yourself grace.
But I know Kelly's life and mylife and many of the other
people's lives that you haveseen exposed on this podcast as
they've shared their testimonies.
At the end of the day, whetheryou grow up in church and you do
all the right things or you goout and you have a great big

(01:13:04):
history, you know, sadness issadness.
The way you feel sadness and theway I feel sadness, it's still
sadness.
What you do with that sadnessand what I do with that sadness
might differ.
If you feel rejection and Ifeel rejection, it's still
rejection.
It doesn't matter who we are orwhere we come from.

(01:13:26):
The emotional ramifications ofthat are very similar.
It's generally what we do withit and where we begin to um,
where our head goes, where ourhead goes with it, but it's,
it's painful.
Life is painful.
But, man, what I was going tosay is the difference with you

(01:13:49):
and me and the people that we'veinterviewed is that they have
been willing to just take a stepand say man God, it was not
working out for me on my ownRight, you know, and why not
give it a try?
You know and for you.
You grew up in church, you'velived, but you've changed jobs,

(01:14:13):
you pursued ministry, you've hadyour own growth in identity and
I mean I think every new seasonthat's constantly changing.
Vulnerability is constantly,because I actually think God
requires it, because I actuallythink God requires it.

Speaker 3 (01:14:31):
Yeah absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:14:31):
It's constantly having to die to ourself and
then become exposed again backto him.

Speaker 3 (01:14:39):
Yeah, no, I was going to say that, yeah, it's part of
dying to yourself and I thinkthat all of the stuff that we've
experienced and that we thinksometimes is going to be the
thing that keeps us fromreaching out right.
Right, think sometimes is goingto be the thing that keeps us
from reaching out Right.

Speaker 1 (01:14:51):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:14:52):
I just want to say that people that are find
themselves there right, all thatstuff God is going to use.

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:15:05):
Thank you, to teach us trust again, to teach us all
these different things.
So all that stuff just because,not just because, but because
we have those things.
That's not necessarily it's soeasy for me to sit on a podcast
and say this, but it's notnecessarily a barrier for God.

Speaker 1 (01:15:25):
Barrier for us, Right right.

Speaker 3 (01:15:27):
But God is going to take that and go oh yeah, that
time back there where thishappened, yeah, okay.
So you and I are going to goback here and we're going to
take that and go oh yeah, thattime back there where this
happened, yeah, okay.
So you and I are going to goback here and we're going to
revisit this and I'm going toshow you how I can show up for
you here, right, right, or we'regoing to talk about this and
we're going to work through this.
So all of those things you knowagain the scripture it's
overused all the time right, allthings work together, right.
So everything, everything thatI've been through, god is going

(01:15:50):
to use at some point I think Italked about this in part one
right To either help me or helpsomebody else Right.
To draw honey out of that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
Yeah, yeah, so good yeah, because he's good.
Okay, any last final thoughts?

Speaker 3 (01:16:07):
No, I promise next week I will have a different
colored shirt on.

Speaker 2 (01:16:11):
Oh no.
You can wear black.
I might wear black too.

Speaker 3 (01:16:15):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):
I'm totally teasing.
I'm sorry if I made youself-conscious.

Speaker 3 (01:16:18):
No, that's totally fine, totally fine.

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):
So I hope you guys were able to follow the
conversation.
I am very impromptu and I thinkI drive Kelly crazy sometimes
because he'll say, okay, whatare we going to talk about?
And I actually did write anorder.

Speaker 3 (01:16:34):
He does have an order here.

Speaker 2 (01:16:37):
We just kind of went all over, but I just like real
conversations.
So thank you for watching.
I hope you guys got somethingout of this today.
And next week we're going to dopart three and we're going to
tie it all together how ourbroken pieces God ultimately
wants to restore and wants toheal and redeem, and how all of

(01:17:00):
that points us back to how wewalk out this Christian life.
So please come back next weekand don't forget to like and
subscribe.

Speaker 3 (01:17:10):
Thank, you Thanks, everybody.

Speaker 1 (01:17:13):
We are so glad you joined us.
If you have a story ofredemption or have worn the
label of a backslider, we wouldlove to hear from you.
If you'd like to support ourministry, your donation will be
tax deductible.
Visit our website attheredeemedbacksliderorg.
We hope you will tune in forour next episode.