From Possessed to Preacher: Part 2- Rev. Ethan Logsdon

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider with your host, kathy
Chastain.
Christian-based psychotherapistand Redeemed Backslider.
This podcast is dedicated tothose who have wandered but are
ready to return to thelife-changing power of grace and
the freedom found in Jesus.

(00:22):
Hi, welcome to the RedeemedBackslider.
I'm your host, kathy Chastain.
I am a licensed Christian-basedpsychotherapist and a redeemed
backslider.
Joining me today, from Texas,is Reverend Ethan Logsdon.
You may remember him from aprevious episode we recorded

(00:43):
where he shared his story, but Ienjoyed talking with him so
much that I really wanted tohave him back and go over a
little more content aboutspiritual warfare and some of
the things that we covered inthe last episode, but really
wanted to dive deeper into thethings that we struggle with as

(01:05):
Christians on our journey andhow the enemy works against us.
So he was gracious and agreedto come back.
So thanks for being here,brother Logsdon, and welcome.
Absolutely.
I'm so honored and glad I coulddo it.
I'm looking forward to it.
I read over the topics you sent.
I went over them again lastnight and the Lord actually

(01:28):
started to deal with me about afew of them, so I'm actually
really excited for today.
Oh good, Me too I've been reallyemotional this week, so I might
cry several times.
That's all right, it's just thewitness right of the Holy Ghost
.
Like you, say often when youminister.
But I wanted to tell you atestimony, and it's not about

(01:54):
the podcast and how good it'sdoing, but really what it's
meant for is to reach people.
And so after your podcast airedsomeone that I know, I've known
her around.
We would see each other atdifferent places, we had common

(02:17):
friends, but she was never oneto really text message me out of
the blue for any reason.
I used to text her about my dogs, way back when she worked for
the vet.
But anyways, she texted me andtold me how much your testimony

(02:38):
meant to her and when you said,just come back home, what that
really meant.
And so she asked a fewquestions and she had started
going to a church.
She was feeling a little lostin, but anyways, I invited her
to church and didn't really saymuch more.

(02:59):
I just wanted to let her knowwhatever questions she had.
Whatever I could do to help,I'd be there to help.
Wanted to let her know whateverquestions she had.
Whatever I could do to help,I'd be there to help.
And then so, after your mom'sepisode launched, the first
thing she said was what time ischurch on Sunday?
Oh, that's awesome.
And so it was.

(03:19):
It.
Just, I think both of yourguys' combined just really
ministered to her.
And so on Sunday she came andbefore church even started, she
was just weeping.
Oh, that's awesome.
And the Lord has just reallybeen present with her and
talking to her and her heart isjust open.

(03:41):
It's just beautiful to see whatGod is doing.
It's just beautiful.
So I wanted to tell you I wasso excited just to see the fruit

(04:03):
of it come through.
So, anyways, she's very happyand God's doing the work and I'm
excited about what else he'sgoing to do.
Yeah, that's awesome, yeah.
So today I sent you for theaudience.
I sent him a list of questions.
I really wanted to feel afterwhat the Lord might want us to
share, and and so I thought wecould open with agreements.

(04:27):
I don't think agreements was inmy list, but I do believe
talking about the power of wordsis, and so I wanted to ask what
are the spiritual implicationsof agreements?
And I made some notes.
Did you ever hear about or seethe movie Nefarious that came

(04:52):
out a couple of years ago?

Speaker 3 (04:55):
I heard about it.
I never watched it though, no,but there was a stir about it,
right?

(05:03):
Yes, it was written by a Christian.
I thought there was yeah okay.
Yeah, yes, it was written by aChristian.
I thought there was yeah, okayyeah, yeah.
It was written by a Christianand I cried about that movie for
like two weeks after I saw itbecause the spiritual
implications of it wasdevastating, I thought.
But for the audience who hasn'tseen it and I don't know,

(05:27):
Brother Logsdon, maybe you couldgive a caveat about being
careful who watches it.
But it was written by aChristian to illustrate demon
possession.
But the demon is speakingthrough this guy who is on death
row.
A therapist comes in tovalidate whether or not this

(05:51):
person is in his right mind totake the death penalty.
But here's what the demon said,which is why I wanted to start
with agreements and words.
He says the demon is speaking.
He says we cannot just possesssomeone.
We need a series of yeses.
We offer up a series oftemptations, gradually

(06:16):
increasing in the terms ofduration, intensity and grave
moral inequity.
The absence of baptism, in thiscase of the boy he possessed,
allowed us to begin the worklong before the age of reason,
at the age of three, At the ageof five.

(06:39):
The death of a toy car can do agreat deal to the emotions.
Then we go on to bigger andbetter things.
The gift of a Ouija board by agrandmother at the age of eight
gave us access to his decisionmaking.
So we begin to steer himwithout ever calling into

(07:01):
question who is doing thesteering.
Calling into question who isdoing the steering enough yeses
and a few no's gave us therights over the victim and his
physical and mental process.
Through each new level, thereare stages, each with its own
name and characteristics umgraduating into extreme

(07:24):
temptation, obsession,infestation, possession,
ultimately to subject subsubjugation.
And I know for the audiencethat might be too much
information, but I brought thatup because it hit me so much how

(07:45):
the innocence of a kid, how theenemy is already beginning to
steer them, and agreements thatwe make unaware and
unintentionally.
So I'm going to let you justdive into that wherever you want
, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (08:06):
So it is a lot of.
That is very true.
People don't the way.
I can't remember I was talkingwith somebody recently about the
subject of demonic possessionand what people don't understand
.
What possession means is I haveyou.

(08:30):
So it is when the human will canbe at I don't know 60% and
demonic can be at 40.
The moment the scales tip to 51, 49 is when you've become
possessed.
It means that they have you intheir control.

(08:51):
Now it's not going to be likemost of the time, it's not like
the demoniac at Gadara.
You're not going to see them,you know, ripping their clothes
off and acting crazy.
Ripping their clothes off andacting crazy, it just means to
be possessed, means at anymoment, if they wanted to do
something through you, theycould.

(09:11):
They just have you in theirpossession.
It doesn't mean that they liveout every ambition that they
have through you.
It means that they do controlyou, and so that does take a
series of and I think we talkedabout this last time the process
of manifestation beforesomething can, and so those two

(09:32):
processes about.
You know, and that's the wayI've always looked at it, you
know some people might not agree, but you know, as far as
percentages within the humanwill and how it can be affected
by certain factors.
For example, an addict.
When somebody is addicted to asubstance, there is something
chemical going on in their brainDisregard the spirituality

(09:56):
there is something that's goingon within their chemistry that
makes them desire and crave acertain substance, and if their
body doesn't receive it, it willthrow them into withdrawal.
So to say that that person hasfull control over their will,
sure, but to say that it's notinfluenced would be a lie.
And so all of those factorscontribute to possession.

(10:22):
Possession is not instant, ithas to be a process of
manifestation, and it's the sameway with Christ.
I hate to say that.
You know it's.
It's the.
The enemy will mock things thatbelong to the kingdom of God.
So it is not that the HolyGhost possesses you, but you
know, when you're controlled bythe Holy Ghost is when he can do

(10:44):
whatever he wants through youat any moment.
It doesn't mean he jerks youaround like a rag doll, it
doesn't mean.
But if your will is on thealtar and it's God's will 51 to
49, that means at any moment Godcan pull your card and say I
want you to do this, I want youto go here, I want you to say
this and you obey, and so it'sthe same principle, or the same

(11:08):
concept, in a way.
And so, yes, they do need aseries of big yeses which begin
to shift the human will, and thereason it's difficult is
because the book of Hebrews saidthat there needs to be the
death of a testator in order fora will to take place.

(11:32):
So, Jesus had to die in orderfor the second covenant to be
born.
Well, I think there's aprinciple within Hebrews.
Some people might disagree, butI do believe there needs to be
a death in order for anotherwill to be born, and what that
means is for us is we need todie out to ourselves in order
for the will of God to be born,which is the old man.

(11:53):
I'm sorry.

(11:55):
That's the old man dying, that's the old man Right.

Speaker 3 (11:58):
So the new man can rise, so the new man can rise,
and the enemy will work in thesame way.
He wants death in a certainarea.
He wants you to die out tocertain disciplines, he wants
you to die out to certainthought processes or in order
that a new will might be birthed.
And here's what's difficult.

(12:17):
Boy, that's powerful.

Speaker 3 (12:18):
And some people are going to understand what I'm
talking about.
The Bible says let the mindthat was in Christ be in you.
Be not conformed to the imageof this world, but be ye
transformed by the renewing ofyour mind.
It tells us to put on Christ,and there's all of these.
Remember, we talked in the lastepisode about manifesting the
qualities and characteristics ofJesus so that we become more

(12:42):
like him.
People are going to know whatI'm talking about when I say
this.
You can die out to your will somuch that your will becomes it
feels almost seamless with thewill of God, and you have no
idea if it is you just decidingto take a step or if the Lord is
ordering them.
And so your behavior becomes soseamless with God if you fall

(13:06):
into alignment and let certainthings die.
It's the same way for the otherside.
You can enter into such a placeof alignment with the other side
that you think these are yourbehaviors, you think you're the
one doing this, but you've gotno idea.
You are living out and servingthe will of something else, and

(13:27):
so by doing that, you aresurrendering your free will.
And by surrendering your freewill, I mean you are choosing to
place your free will behind thewill of something that's not of
God, and so by doing that,you're choosing to say yes to
something.
You're choosing to say yes tothe disciplines of hell.

(13:47):
There's a guy I've been workingon for a really, really long
time and he just can't seem toget some of these things down.
And he called me one day and hesaid Ethan, you think if I died
today I'd go to hell?
And I said man, I'll be honest,I'm nobody's judge.
I said, but if I were to judgeyou by the standard of the word,

(14:10):
I would say yes.
I said and I don't say that tocondemn you, I say that to
hopefully wake you up.
I said because you can't livelike hell and expect to go to
heaven, and so when people beginto, I hate.
You know, I'm hesitant usingthe word manifest because it
sounds so new age, but I meanit's a biblical word.
So when people begin tomanifest characteristics of hell

(14:32):
, that is what is in charge ofthem.
Right, that's what you are tothe image.
That's the image.

Speaker 4 (14:43):
They're conforming to the image and we are supposed
to conform to the image likethey're starting.
That's the image Like you said.

(14:45):
Yeah, they're conforming to the image, and we are supposed
to conform to the image ofChrist.
See I love it, because we'veheard these scriptures our whole
life, growing up in church, butnever really understanding the
depth of them, until we havethese sort of examples, you know
, to make sense of it or tobring it into, I don't know,

(15:12):
experiential place maybe.

Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah, yeah, but that's you know, there's some
truth element to it.
I remember the moment where myfull possession took place.
I can take you to the spot ithappened.
I remember I drove home and Iremember I backed my car up to

(15:36):
the tree line and we had justhad a flood.
So my car was pointing towardthe FEMA trailer that they had
while they were building thehouse.
I remember my car was pointingtoward the FEMA trailer that
they had, you know, while theywere building the house.
I remember my car was pointingtoward it and I remember I had
the.
I had blue lights on theinterior of my car.
I remember the blue hue andeverything.
And I just remember I mean itwas so overwhelming, you know we

(15:58):
talk about when the hand of Godrests on us, and it's so
overwhelming, you know.
You know without a shadow of adoubt, that the Lord is
somewhere, you know, verypresent, and that same thing,
but the other way happened and Iwas like this is strange and I
mean I remember it like it wasyesterday.
All it said was let me havecontrol.

(16:20):
And I remember.
But this request felt different, like there were other times
I'd never heard its voice veryprominent, and it wasn't like I
didn't hear it in my ear.
It wasn't like it was like animpression.
It's the same way the Lordspeaks to me it's an impression
and it's a statement that justit's like, it's like it's

(16:42):
inserted Ididn't think it.
Yeah, and I didn, and I didn'thear it with natural ears, but
it just let me have control andI stopped.
You could feel the weight.
I could feel the weight behindthe statement.
You know there are some thingsthat are said carelessly and
there are some things you knowlike, no, there's some intent
behind that.
I knew like it felt severe but,I'll be honest, I didn't know

(17:06):
what it meant.
I was like what does that mean?
But I kid you not.
I remember when I said, okay,go ahead.
I mean I remember it like itwas yesterday.
It was scary.
It felt the only way I canexplain it.
It felt like have you ever seenthe finger puppeteers where

(17:27):
they have the hooks around theirfingers?
and the strings and they canmake things.
It felt like strings wereattached to limbs in this thing.
Pick me up, not like off theground, I mean like it, it's
like like it, my, my, my, I meanI'm.
I turned the car off, I openedup the door.
But I mean, I turned the caroff, I opened up the door, but I

(17:47):
mean it was like I was inco-pilot, like it felt like it
was.
It was surreal, to say theleast Walked me into the bed,
laid me down, I went to sleep,woke up, everything was
completely normal again, but itwas at that moment my will
crossed over that 50-50 and into49.

(18:10):
Because there was an aspect.
I gave over.
I said yes.
Right, I said yes.

(18:17):
Because the Lord talks to us that way too.
There's been times in my lifewhere he has come to me and
asked me, and I've always saidyes to him.
But I know, like you, just knowwhen the Lord is asking you.
He gives us a choice.
We had an old evangelist usedto come through that always

(18:37):
would say God is a gentleman,he's a gentleman.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
He's a gentleman.

(18:43):
He's not going to make you do anything against your will.
And so, because I think someagreements are subconscious
agreements, right, like you know, when you sing along to music
or you, you know, watch violenceor you know all of that kind of
stuff, I think some of thoseare subconscious, but they're
still.
I don't know, I'd like youropinion but for you to hear that

(19:07):
and know that you made aconscious choice to say yes and
completely out of ignorance,right.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
Right, it was out of ignorance.

(19:18):
You didn't know really the depth.

Speaker 3 (19:20):
People don't understand the spirit realm
thrives off of obedience.
People don't understand thespirit realm thrives off of
obedience.
God desires obedience and theenemy also desires obedience,
and disobedience is obedience tothe other side, and that's what
people don't understand.
When you're disobedient to thewill of God, you're being
obedient to something else.
There's no, I don't know ifthere is.

(19:43):
It's a very, very thin line ofamorality, of neutral ground.
If there is neutral ground, itis very, very thin.
Most of the time you're makinga decision that leans you left
or it leans you right, andthat's what people don't
understand, right?

(19:58):
The Bible says we either live to God and hate the other master
when it's talking about the twomasters, or we live to the one
and and hate the other, yeah, soit seems like there really is
no middle ground.

Speaker 3 (20:18):
Yeah, it is.

(20:20):
And most people don't live their life with that sort of
idea in mind that they areliving for someone, even if
they're unaware of it.

Speaker 3 (20:30):
Right, even if they're unaware.
And you know, people say, well,I've heard people say, well,
those weren't my intentions.
Well, actions speak far louderthan words and they speak far
louder than intentions.
You know, Saul might have hadthe right intentions.
Saul said, no, I might have hadthe right intentions.
Saul said, no, I wanted tosacrifice to the Lord.
Well, you were in disobedience,and obedience is better than

(20:50):
sacrifice.
You might have tried tosacrifice with the right
intentions, but that's not whatGod said to do.
And so when the enemy looks andyou know, that's why I'm such a
big, you know, I'm a bigproponent on we have to watch
what we watch, what we entertain, and there's a whole.
It's not a message I preach,it's if I'm feeling something,

(21:11):
I'll go in and I'll talk aboutthe Hebrews passage where it
references entertaining angelsunaware, and I'll go in and I'll
hit this a little bit.
But what people don'tunderstand is, like media things
we scroll and pause on.
I think our algorithm says alot about us.
It says a lot about what wepause on, what we find

(21:33):
intriguing and entertaining.
And somebody said it like this,and I've never thought about
movies the same way, like I'mvery, very careful with what I
watch Very careful.
Somebody said it like this whenyou watch a movie, you allow
things to take place in yourhome that you would never allow

(21:54):
to take place in your home.

(21:55):
Right Right, infidelity affairs violence.

Speaker 3 (22:00):
And so when a spirit comes by and sees that and then
on Sunday you're like, oh no,I'm against adultery, I'm
against fornication, I'm againstall this stuff.
And it's going to look and say,well, you're letting it in your
home.
Monday, tuesday, wednesday,thursday, friday, saturday, your
actions are speaking for youand the spirit and they're
saying, no, you're welcomingthose things and your private

(22:22):
life speaks far greater thanyour public.
And so those are those subtleagreements that we make with the
enemy.
And I mean he does have an eyeon our private life and people
aren't aware of that.
He knows what we watch, heknows what we scroll through, he
knows what makes us tick.
And I remember you know somepeople aren't going to like this

(22:45):
, but that's okay.
I never got in this thing to belike God.
I had a dream years ago and Iwas in the foyer of a church and
, long story short, god pulledme out into the.
I was in the sanctuary, pulledme out to the foyer of the
church.
There's this old man, suit andtie, sitting in a leather chair,

(23:06):
and he looked like he was kindof.
I mean, to be honest, I thoughthe was not dead, but nearing
death.
I mean he was in the chair,drooling on himself and
everything, and he had a littledesk by him with a leather-bound
journal, and so I remember Iwalked over and I opened up the

(23:27):
journal.
I said, you know, he's probablynot going to need this anymore.
And in the dream I started toread it and I think the Lord
shielded my mind from it for areason.
But I remember in the dream Iwas able to process the
information and I was like thisis kind of crazy, like the
revelation that this guy has.
I've never heard stuff likethis before.

(23:48):
He's talking about intricaciesin the spirit and all of these
different.
All of a sudden, I get to apage that has my name on the top
and it's got bullet points.
When he wakes up and does this,if he wakes up and says this.
If he wakes up and texts thisperson, if he wakes up and goes
these places, attack with this,do this, use this, lay this trap

(24:09):
.
If he does this, back off.
If he does this, send thisspirit in.
I mean it isn't.
And I remember I felt a.
You know there are differentwitnesses we feel when it comes
to being sensitive to the spiritworld in an entirety, and I
felt such a demonic witness.
I remember I dropped the bookand I said this is a manual on

(24:31):
how to attack me.
And I look at that man and he'sno longer, you know, looking
like he's about to die, justdepressive.
He's looking up at me, smirking, and I was like, oh, that's not
a man at all.
It was a trick.
And little did I know.
That dream spoke volumes.

(24:51):
I was lured.
At a young age I thought thatthis guy was you know.
I was like, hey, this is hiddenknowledge.
And all of a sudden there's ahook in it.
And so that dream and it servedas an example itself, where God
was saying, hey, the enemyknows what makes you tick.

(25:12):
Yeah.
And I don't say this to glorifythe devil, but I think we in the
church we downplay him a lot.
We can't be foolish.
He knows what he's doing.
He's been doing this forthousands of years.

(25:35):
He knows humans, and if wethink he don't know us, we're
wrong.
We are wrong, and so that's whyit is so important, like Peter
said, be sober, be vigilant foryour adversary.
The devil walketh about like aroaring lion, seeking whom he
may devour.
I've heard people say well, heroars because he doesn't have

(25:56):
any teeth, and I heard apreacher say it like this.
He said well, go ahead andstick your head in the devil's
mouth and see if he don't bitedown on you.
The Bible says he's seeking whohe can devour, not who he can
intimidate and so that's whatpeople don't know.
He knows what we watch andthings of that nature.
So I try not to make thosesubtle agreements in private,

(26:18):
because I want authority inpublic.

(26:21):
Right, right, but I think you know with what's troubling.
What's always troubling to meis what is in the church.
Like that, in your dream theman was in the church in your
real life.
You know, uh, the guy who luredyou into the occult was in the
church and that is disturbing inand of itself.

(26:47):
But I think it just is anexample of how we are very
unaware in our discernment aboutthe spirit realm and I don't
know why that is in our I don'tknow.
I don't want to speak for ourorganization worldwide, but it

(27:12):
feels like we don't push intoseeking after the deeper things
of the Lord to really get rid ofdepression.
Because that agreement, I thinkthere's real depression the
Lord wants to deliver peoplefrom.
Like really get rid ofdepression.
Because that agreement, youknow, I think there's real
depression the Lord wants todeliver people from.
But I also think there'sagreements with that, you know,

(27:36):
because we're not looking atthings through the spiritual
lens.
We're just looking at thingsbecause we can diagnose it,
because we have a scientificdata on it it means that somehow
it's not spiritual, but I thinkit's always spiritual.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
Yeah, you know, I had .
Some of the listeners mightknow him.
Bobby Wade helped me out withsomething a while back and I
remember I called him one dayand there was just this
heaviness that had settled on meone day and I was just there
was just this heaviness that hadsettled on me and I remember I

(28:08):
was walking through Walmart andjust everybody was agitating me.
She said I should look at themand I just got angry and I was
like this isn't you know, thisisn't right.
I remember I called him, I saidman, I just I don't know what
it is.
And you know only the way,bobby Way could.
He said, brother Lockston, youknow, everything you feel isn't

(28:33):
what you feel.
And by when he said that itjust kind of clicked.
And he followed that up bysaying everything you feel
doesn't belong to you.
And so sometimes we wake up andwe feel things or we go into
certain places and all of asudden our mood changes, our

(28:55):
emotions have a little swing.
Our spirits, you know, soundslike they go quiet or our minds
get foggy.
Our spirits, you know, soundslike they go quiet or our minds
get foggy.
I've begun to realize those areindicators of certain
underlying factors within thatatmosphere, within certain
individuals, within thosechurches.
So I might wake up one day.
If I woke up tomorrow and feltdepressed, I ain't depressed, I

(29:16):
know me, I know myself.
I'm not saying I couldn't getinto that state, but my life is
not in such disarray right nowthat would cause me to be
depressed.
And that's not arrogant, that'sknowing where I am in life,
right, right, right.
And so I can't reinforce thatRight.
I can't say, oh, because I wokeup and all of a sudden, no

(29:39):
chances are I'm going to come incontact with somebody that day
or today that is struggling withthat, and God wants me to know
how they feel, so I can, so Ican be empathetic and so I can,
I can know where it is.
They you know, and a lot ofpeople don't.
Really.
They think, oh, I just feel, ok, that's mine.
No, could it be that God istrying to introduce you to some

(30:01):
personal gifts and introduce youto a spirit of ministry, and
sometimes we just but that's thething we don't stay sensitive
enough or in the presence of Godlong enough to realize those
things, because I was prayinglast night and the Lord just
started to deal with me aboutyou get, when you open yourself

(30:22):
up to the entire, you knowspirit world, you're going to
not not schizophrenic, you'regoing to hear and see voices
like there's going to be.
The Bible says that the heavensdeclare as handiwork.
The Bible says that creationgroans.
Yes, it does.
There's going to be that you'regoing to pick up on so many

(30:42):
different things.
There's going to be the voiceof our flesh.
There's going to be the voiceof other people's flesh.
There's going to be, you know,that's.
That's just kind of bouncingthrough.
And what people don'tunderstand is is the will of God
, for our life has a certain andI hate using these words, it
sounds new agey, but it's theonly.
For me, it's how it's how Iunderstand it.
I guess, coming from mybackground, that's why it does

(31:04):
sound, you know, new age, butthis is the way I understand it
the, the, the, the will of God.
It has, whatever you knowdeciphering through all this
stuff, it has a certain ring toit, it's got a certain frequency
, and so when I wake up and I've, I feel a certain way that I

(31:26):
know is not mine, I can discernwhether or not this is an attack
or if it's the will of God.
And what I mean by the will ofGod is there's something he
wants to do through this.

(31:35):
Through this right, right, Because it's got that certain
feel to it.

Speaker 3 (31:39):
It's got.
His voice.
It's got his voice on the tailend.

(31:43):
Sometimes it's a piece, sometimes it's a Even if it's
conflict, you can have peace inthat and knowing that-.
Right, you know.

Speaker 3 (31:51):
It's got his fingerprints on it.
Does that make sense?
Yep, yep.
Like.
To me, the best explanation fordiscernment is I don't know if
they do this anymore, but whatthey used to do to train federal
bank tellers is they wouldbring them into a room and have
them count US currency.

(32:12):
And they would just have themcount it day after day after day
after day, day.
And what's interesting is theydidn't go into a vault and pull
out every bit of counterfeitcurrency that they'd ever
confiscated and said, hey, gothrough all of this.
You got to memorize that thiswas made on this type of printer
and was made with this type ofmaterial, and it was.

(32:35):
They just had them count thereal thing.
So when they're out in the worldand they're feeling money, all
of a sudden, that they comeacross something, they're like,
hey, I've been so close to thereal thing, I'm so used to being
around the real thing, I knowwhat it feels like.
And this ain't it.
I might not be able to tell youwhere this kind of I can't tell
you it came from Puerto Rico.
I can't tell you any of that.

(32:56):
I might not be able to pinpointit, but I can tell you it's not
the real thing.
And so that's what I mean byit's got the fingerprints of God
on it.
There are some things you feeland you're like no, there's
God's hand, his voice is on this.
There's something about thisthat God wants me to pursue.
This isn't mine and a lot ofpeople.

(33:16):
What they'll do is they'll beginto embrace that and let it
become their identity, and then,there's a deadly I mean, I
don't know spirit, call it whatyou want and you know the
clinical word is hypochondriacs,where people it's a terrible,

(33:39):
terrible disease right now, andI don't mean like, but people
are they're running to socialmedia for all of these different
diagnosis and there'shalf-baked you know,
intellectuals out there, youknow, just spewing out nonsense
just because they have theInstagram app on their phone and
people cling to these sourcesas if they're, you know,

(34:01):
reliable and proven.
And then they'll look up all ofthese different and say, okay,
if I'm depressed, I've got toexhibit these symptoms, and so
if I'm, if I'm missing a few,and all of a sudden, you don't
know, people don't understand,and I don't mean to get into,
you know all of this deep stuff,but they, they are, I call it,

(34:21):
brooding in the fourth dimension, and what that means is there's
a moment when you step beyondthe line of acknowledging
something and you begin toentertain it, and so, all of a
sudden, they're brooding on thisthought, no longer in their
mind but in their spirit, andthis thought is oh, I'm
depressed.
And when they begin to brood onthat in the fourth dimension,
which is where the spirit realmis, it will begin to call out to

(34:48):
certain things and they'llbegin to embrace other If they
go down the list if I'mdepressed, I've got to act like
this and I've got to live likethis and subconsciously they
begin to manifest thosecharacteristics because that's
what they're brooding on all day.
And so you're right.
There is a level of agreementand if people aren't careful,
they will take on what they werenever meant to take on.
I know that was a lot, but Ijust wanted to.

(35:11):
No, it was good, because I think when we talk about healing
or, it's hard for people toreally absorb that if they I
think understanding agreementlike you don't always feel it.
People make agreements all daylong without emotional input,
just because it's theirlifestyle or what they've been

(35:33):
ingrained to do, you know um,but they still have a belief in
that somewhere yeah you know,that might even be subconscious,
but I think when we reallystart to believe what the Bible
says, even if we're just takingit in faith, we may not have
experience with it, but thatword will also begin to manifest

(35:55):
and take root, to where healingcan really start to come into
play.
Yeah, healing it can reallystart to come into play.
Yeah, but I think you know theagreement.
I see it a lot in therapy,especially through intrusive
thoughts that people reallybelieve.
I've had little kids, which iswhy that movie troubled me so

(36:17):
much.
I've had four year olds andfive yearolds who are having all
of these thoughts.
They believe it's them and it'snot, you know, because they're
still fairly innocent at thatage.
But the enemy is alreadyworking on them and so, um, I
think it.

(36:38):
It comes through wounds, right,it comes through our brokenness
, our hurts, our little toy thatgets broken, our little
crossword that gets said to usor we get spanked, and it hurts
our heart, breaks our heart, andso all those little things, the

(37:00):
enemy I heard one time that theenemy is an opportunist and he
just comes in to take advantageof normal moments in life, of
just growing up, right.
But when, when you do have, whensomeone is really, I think,
maybe destined to walk with Godand to have ministry and to have

(37:25):
a life in the Lord, the enemyreally comes in at a very early
age to try to disrupt it andweave in his little lies about
their own identity.

Speaker 3 (37:36):
Yeah, absolutely.

(37:39):
So from there I guess we'll launch into words.
In my email I wanted you to sortof unpack the spiritual
implication of words,specifically how they are used
to cast spells and how they areused for prayer.

(38:00):
For prayer because, um, I had,uh, by mistake, this girl who
came into church um a few yearsago and, um, I was trying to
help her.
She needed a place to live andso I opened up my house to let
her live there and the Lord wasdoing a work in her, but she had

(38:23):
been a witch all her life andher family, her mother and her
grandmother, had been a witch,which, you know, I didn't come
from that, didn't know anythingabout that.
But one day we were talkingabout prayer and she said well,

(38:47):
that's exactly what spells are.
Spell Se-l-l, that's a word youknow, they're just words, and
so I it really hit a light bulband I begin to understand.
I feel like, as a culture,prayer has been something that
has been so flippantly said andused that we don't really
understand the power of it,because we don't really

(39:08):
understand the power of words.
But I recently heard on apodcast that words never die and
I don't know if that's true ornot, but we know that Abel's
blood spoke to the Lord from thegrave and I know that life is

(39:33):
in the blood.
So we'll get to that.
But I just wanted you to reallytalk about the spiritual
implications of words and howthat relates to agreement and
what we are speaking overourself all the time for
positive or negative, but whatthe spirit world does with that.

Speaker 3 (39:51):
Yeah.
So part of my understanding ofthe spirit world is a lot of it.
A lot of the spirit deals withwhat I call avenues, and every
avenue will be anthropomorphicin nature, and what that means

(40:15):
is the spirit is immaterial, andso the only way, every time we
materialize or attempt tomaterialize the immaterial, it
has to be done throughanthropomorphic means.
And for those who don't knowanthropomorphic, I'm not trying
to be superfluousAnthropomorphic means that we

(40:36):
give human-like characteristicsto something that might be, you
know, something that's not human, like a phenomena or you know
the spirit world, and theperfect example of this to me is
in Exodus 33, where Moses asksthe Lord to show him his glory

(40:57):
and all of a sudden, godintroduces what they
academically callanthropomorphics.
And God Yahweh looks at Mosesand says no man can see my face
and live.
Hold on, he hasn't manifestedto a human for the incarnation.
God is a spirit.

(41:18):
What do you mean?
He can't see your face, youdon't have a spirit.
What do you mean?
He can't see your face.
You don't have a face, no mancan see my face and live.
But there is a place by me andI'll place you on the rock and
I'll cover you with my hand.
Well, hold on.
The same thing applies.
You don't have hands, you're aspirit.

(41:39):
And he says and then I willtake away mine hand you don't
have hands, remember and you'llsee my back parts, but my face
will not be seen.
And so that is what they callanthropomorphics.
And so what that is is God isusing human-like terms to relate
something that's going on inthe spirit.
So that's why it says and itcan even get not intentionally

(42:02):
confusing, it just is, becauseevery time we materialize the
immaterial, it will lose essence.
So the Bible says that thespirit of God is like water,
says it's like fire, says it'slike wind.
Right, right, those arecontrary elements, but that's
God.
God is saying there's, it'simmaterial, but the way that you
can understand it.
And so that's an avenue, wordsare an avenue in the Spirit.

(42:29):
It is like, you know, billyCole, when he developed the word
of faith by the authority ofthe word of God and by the power
, that is, in the name of Jesus,of the Word of God and by the
power that is in the name ofJesus.
That is an avenue to exercisefaith, like laying on of hands.
That is an avenue tomaterialize the immaterial.

(42:52):
And so words are the exact sameway, but there must be
substance somewhere, and whatthat means is you know, there's
a talk in the world, there's atalk in the world, there's a
phrase in the world where theysay, oh, they're all talk, where
it is literally just words.

(43:13):
But then there are times whereyou said no, there was weight
behind those words.

Speaker 4 (43:15):
They're speaking from a place of experience, you can
feel it.

Speaker 3 (43:17):
I can say let there be light all day.
I couldn't turn a light bulb onwith that, but God had
something backing up his words.
So when he said let there belight all day, I couldn't turn a
light bulb on with that.
But God had something backingup His Word.
So when he said let there belight there was authority behind
it, and so people don'tunderstand the damsel in
divination.
This is one of my favorite,favorite passages.

(43:39):
She finds Paul and says theseare the men sent by God to
preach the way into salvation,and she follows him.
The Bible says for three days,which in and of itself, that
statement sounds okay.
It sounds okay.
Right, it sounds okay.
And I've heard people say, oh,she was puffing up the man of
God.

(43:59):
No, that is literally what Godspoke to Paul.
It's not.
And then the Bible says Paul,being grieved in his spirit,
turned around and said come outof her.
And so here's the revelation.

(44:21):
Paul heard the right wordscoming out of the wrong spirit.
I can sit in front of anybodyand all of a sudden they can
make a passive, aggressiveremark and say I didn't mean it.

Speaker 4 (44:30):
But I felt the spirit underneath it.
Yeah, does that make sense.

Speaker 3 (44:32):
So when people are sensitive.
You know, like my mother says,oh, I'm going to kill you.
I know she didn't mean it.
Mm, hmm.
But if some guy on the side ofthe road just all of a sudden,
I'm going to kill you, there's adifferent, there's a spirit
behind it, and so that is somepeople, and I'm going to get in

(44:55):
trouble for this.
I'll be honest, I think some,most people, don't pray, they
just talk.
Because true prayer has aweight behind it.
Some people just like to bumptheir gums.
True prayer when you get intothe spirit of prayer, things
happen.
That is what Jesus meant whenhe said you know, you can say
thou to the mountain, be thouremoved and cast into the sea,

(45:17):
and it shall be so.
That is when you have somethingbehind your words.
You're not just talking.
You're not just talking, you'renot just and that's not saying
if you find this key, you canjust start moving mountains.
No, it's got to be, there's anorder of these things.
But what he was saying was, ifyou can tap into what I'm saying

(45:37):
, you can truly move things withyour prayers.
You can truly move things withyour prayers.
You can do some good, you cando some work if you know how to
pray.
And so people think that thewalls of Jericho came down just

(45:57):
through a shout.
There was a daily walk.
Behind the shout, behind thewords, behind the— the shout was
an avenue that that the walkwas able to travel on.
Does that make sense?
Yes, yes and I hope people getthat the shout was.
Think of the shout as a roadand think of the walking as the
vehicle, that road, that thatdrives across this road to its
destination.
That's what words are.

(46:18):
When I'm saying something,that's what people say oh, I
feel the anointing.
When you feel the anointingwhen somebody's speaking, their
preaching is just the avenue forthe Spirit of God to through
the foolishness of preaching.
God chose the foolishness ofpreaching to save them.
That would believe.
It's just an avenue.
So words are the same, they'rean avenue.

(46:39):
You can give me a New Age witchwho is loving all these fairies
and all of this.
I call it Disney witch stuffand since there's no real
substance behind what she does,she's not going to do anything.
And then I know another groupof they call them blood witches
who deal with the womb and allof this really dark stuff.

(47:03):
But it's got real weight behindit and when they begin to
operate the wrong spirit, stuffdoes happen.
But you know they could besaying the same thing but
there's nothing behind it andthat's why some preachers it's
just empty words, it's vainphilosophy.
But you can tell when somebodyis truly not by the words but by
what's behind the words.
It's vain philosophy, but youcan tell when somebody is truly

(47:24):
not by the words but by what'sbehind the words.
And so you know, some words canbe flippant sometimes, but a
lot of times if you just listento people, you can pick up on
what's underneath their wordsand you know, even if studies
show.
I don't have it on me right now, but I think it's only 20, and
I might be generous by saying 20.

(47:45):
20% of received communicationis verbal.
Over 80% is nonverbal.
So it's really the words arejust the avenue, and so that's
my, but then again somebodymight have a different take on
that.
That's my take on words, butthen again somebody might have a
different take on that.
That's my take on on words.
Words can be powerful.
Words can have the power oflife and death if there's power

(48:08):
behind them.

(48:10):
Right, because you know we have the power to bless and
curse and speak life and death.
And you're right, belief issuch a intangible thing, we
can't see it, but we know it.
So you know, speak to thenegative talk that people say

(48:31):
over themselves.
You know how they arereinforcing what they actually
believe and what's behind thosewords when they, you know, talk
bad about themselves or walk inunbelief it may not be people
say, well, I believe God can, Ijust don't know if God will.

(48:52):
And so we hear that a lot.
And just over their own identityand over their own life and
feeling unworthy or feelinginequitous, or feeling as if
they're not ever good enoughlike the weight behind those

(49:12):
words, for them and how thatreinforces the spirit realm.

Speaker 3 (49:17):
Sure, yeah.
So some people they makeflippant remarks and then others
, you know you're like, youreally do believe that about
yourself.
You know you hear some people.
They say you know one lady'scome into my mind and you hear
her talk to herself all the timeand a lot of it is very
degrading and you know I used tothink nothing of it but then

(49:42):
you know it started to justsomething about.
It just didn't sit right withme.
And that verse out of theabundance of the heart, the
mouth speaketh.
The mouth is the avenue totransmit what's in the heart.
That those words are just theavenue.
So it's really they are givingvoice to.

(50:03):
And here's the thing I neverlooked at it like this.
It doesn't say out ofeverything that's in the heart,
out of the abundance of theheart.
So what is a, what is abounding, and what they're, what
they're constantly?
And so for me those words are atelltale sign, depending on,
again, what you pick up onbehind those words.

(50:25):
Some people just say dumb stuff.
Some people you're like, hmm,there's something to that, and
then you can tell it's abidingand abounding in their hearts.
And so what?
People don't understand.
It's like a vicious cycle.
And then you think well, whatcame first, the chicken or the

(50:47):
egg?
I don't know.
All I know is there's a chicken, and so finding the genesis is
sometimes ineffective.
But you do know they're caughtin this pattern.
Is it abounding in their heartbecause they're saying it, or
are they saying it because it'sabounding in their heart because
they're saying it, or are theysaying it because it's abounding
in their heart?
But I have learned when it'sabounding in somebody's heart,
they'll talk about it, and it'sjust this cycle.

(51:09):
And so a lot of people you knowI'm not trying to find the
genesis of it, but I do knowwhether you know I'll say that
one more time Are theyconstantly talking about it
because it's abounding in theirheart or is it abounding in
their heart because they'reconstantly talking about it?
That's the issue.
We don't know, we don't know,and so I think it's very

(51:32):
important to watch what you say.
You know, james says bridle thetongue, it's the most unruly
member of the body, and I thinkwhen people do that, they are
signaling to the spirit world.
They have a lack ofself-control.
I mean who you know, and Idon't say this to discourage
somebody who might be strugglingwith speaking negative things

(51:55):
over their life.
But the first time you read I'msorry, I'm not sure if it's the
first one of the first timesyou ever read about you know you
read in the Old Testament andthe anger of the Lord was
kindled.
Yes.
One of the first times you readabout that was actually toward
Moses, and it was when Godcalled Moses and said this is

(52:17):
what I think of you.
You're a deliverer, this iswhat I want.
And Moses said I'm slow ofspeech, said this is what I
think of you.
You're a deliverer, this is whatI want.
And Moses said I'm slow ofspeech.
And he kept saying it.
And all of a sudden the Biblesays that the anger of the Lord
was kindled against Moses.
And we don't understand.
Sometimes, by us us speakingnegative, we are, we are
accidentally kindling the angerof the Lord, because the

(52:38):
psalmist said we're fearfullyand wonderfully made Genesis
says that we're the onlycreature that was created in the
image of God.
In the image of God.
yeah, and so when we do that, weare speaking negatively against
the image of God, and that'swhat some people don't
understand.
It's the same concept withinthe five-fold ministry there's a
human human that sits within aholy office, an imperfect human

(53:01):
in a perfect office.
We are imperfect people whohave been given a perfect image,
and that perfect image is theimage of God.
Now there's an image ofcarnality that has been added
due to the fault, but the imageof God that we were created in
is perfect, and I don't knowwhere that line, where the line
of my humanity begins and theline of God's image ends, and

(53:22):
I'm not surgical enough to getin there and speak so negatively
.
I might bump up against thatimage of God.
And it's the same thing.
That's why I say this aboutspiritual authority and pastors
in the fivefold, when Nadab andAbihu offered strange fire
before the Lord, the Bible saysthat the Lord sent a fire from

(53:44):
heaven and consumed them andsinged their bodies.
But here's what's interestingthe Bible said that God did not
touch a single fabric on thepriestly garments, because the
office is perfect, the peopleweren't, and only God is sharp
enough to correct the individualwithout touching what is holy,
and we as humans aren't.

(54:04):
And that's why we have to becareful about what we say about
ourselves, because I never knowwhen I'm actually going to bump
up against that image of God andall of a sudden, does that make
sense?
That's the same way it dealswith our interpersonal
relationships too.
I'm going to be careful abouthow I talk or view my sister,
because I might bump up againstthat image of God and now I'm

(54:27):
touching what is holy and thatmight invoke the judgment of the
Lord, and so we're not thejudgment of the Lord.
It might call out to a certainspirit.
There's no telling what itcould do, but that's why I'm so
careful about what I say aboutmyself, about what I say about
others, especially what I sayabout spiritual authority,

(54:47):
because you never know whenyou're going to bump up against
an image that is holy, and sowhen you do that to yourself, it
can have detriments.

(54:56):
And I think that's why the enemy attacks identity so much
and people, because they arespeaking against themselves,
they're speaking against theirown image, exactly what you said
, and the enemy is using that,you know, um against them, but
really kind of enjoying itbecause he does understand who

(55:19):
they are created to be and whothey are.
And so would you call thatblindness, like you know, you
were talking about the addictbefore.
Yeah, like once you becomepossessed by something I love,

(55:44):
luke 4.18.
I think that is our mandate asa church, you know, to bind up
the brokenhearted.
Yeah absolutely.
For the Lord to open the eyes ofthe blind and set the captives
free.
And I look at that a lot like,because I think captives really
requires a sovereign move of Godto release them.

(56:06):
They cannot release themselvesWould you agree.

Speaker 3 (56:12):
Yeah, I would, because I mean, I think,
practicality, you know, unlessthere's a jailbreak by an
individual, it's pretty.
I mean, prison is prison for areason You're not meant to get
out.
It's kind of outside of yourcontrol, unless there's an
external force that is aidingyou and helping you, you know.

(56:36):
So I would agree with that.
But to answer on something theLord brought this to my memory,
this is something I studied outwith that.
But to answer on something theLord brought this to my memory,
this is something I studied outmonths ago.
You said the enemy knows howwe're created, and he does, and
most people I guarantee you,most people never noticed this
In Genesis.
This was the attack.

(56:57):
So what he does is he comes inand he says the reason God
doesn't want you to eat of thisfruit is because he knows, in
the day that he is thereof,you'll become like him.
You're going to be like a god,we already were.
Not the little god doctrine, butwe were the only creature that

(57:22):
was created in the image of God,the only creature.
And Satan knew that and he saysyou're going to be like God if
you do this.
And all of a sudden he got Evechasing something that was
already hers it's a lie.
It was a lie Right.
He got her chasing an identitythat she really already had in

(57:42):
Christ or in God, and that istypically the trick of the enemy
he will get somebody to chasean identity that falls far
beneath the identity that theyhave in God.

(57:55):
Yes, yes, that's so good, so good.
Okay, let's see how do wetransition.
So, when people believe a lieabout their identity, when they
do speak ill of themselves, illof others, I mean, would you say

(58:20):
, like, I think think about theblindness opening the eyes of
the blind.
Do you think that is um, likehow would you conceptualize that
?
What all categories would thatmaybe fall into?
When we're, when we're talkingabout the lost, or even saints,
who are blinded to things thatthey really have access to

(58:44):
through the Bible, through theHoly Ghost.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
Yeah.
So I think one of our biggest,the biggest blinder, I think
within, not just our movement, Ithink within Christendom.
Jesus is teaching and somePharisees come up and they're

(59:09):
asking questions and stuff, andJesus had an interesting rebuke.
He said you do err, not knowingthe Scriptures, and then he
spoke in the Old Testament mypeople perish from a lack of
knowledge.
I think the greatest blinders wehave are the ones we put on

(59:30):
ourselves.
And so if we're not, if werefuse to educate ourselves on
where we come from and who weare in God, and we're blinding
ourselves and that just leads,it gives the enemy free roam to
just deceive.
And that is why I truly believeand this is not a defense for

(59:51):
people who are spirituallyabusive or manipulative but I
think a lot of that junk couldbe cut out if our pews were more
educated.
But we have a culture that isso hype and emotion-induced that
a preacher, as long as he hypesyou up, he can slip in false
doctrine and nobody will know itbecause it feels good, it's
hype.
Those are the blinders.

(01:00:12):
If we're going to do anythingfor God and do anything in the
Spirit, we've got to know theRight.
That's where the enemy's goingto attack.
It's where he attacked Jesus.

(01:00:23):
It's what's real Exactly.
It's exactly where he attackedJesus.

Speaker 3 (01:00:28):
That's exactly where he attacked Eve as well.
It might trail off intoattacking ideology and attacking
characteristics, but it'salways going to end back up.
He's going to attack the Wordsomehow and twist the scripture.

(01:00:42):
That's where it starts, it's where it ends.
End back up.

Speaker 3 (01:00:43):
He's going to attack the Word somehow.
That's where it starts, it'swhere it ends, that's where it
starts and ends Every time he'sgoing to attack and people don't
know.
That's what he does.
In our own life, like we live,our Western society, we don't
even understand this.
We are built on some valuesthat come from the Word, and so
he undermines those.
We think he's attackingpolitical agendas.
He's not.
He knows that those politicalagendas are nested within

(01:01:07):
principles that are found withinthe Word.
And he says I'm trying to getto that Word and if I can get in
that Word and dismantle it, Iwin.
And so if we can get educatedon the Word of God, his attacks
will become much.
That's why it says submityourselves, therefore, unto God.
Resist the devil and he'll flee.

(01:01:29):
And if you submit to God,you're submitting to his word,
because God's presence and God'sword, they're inseparable, and
I have scripture to back that upHis presence and his word,
they're inseparable.

(01:01:42):
And that's just a choice.
It's just whether youunderstand it or not.
It's a decision that you maketo submit to surrender Right.

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
Yeah, right, there is .
That's why and I don't say thisto offend any listeners, but
that's why I have such a hardtime understanding the Calvinist
doctrine.
I've studied it very thoroughlyand I just don't understand it.
Like a lot of their points arein conflict with just the

(01:02:14):
overall human experience, not tomention the theological issues
I have with it, but practicality.
The theological issues I havewith it, but practicality I mean
how we watch humans behave andact every day.
It kind of throws a wrench inthis idea that there's no free
will.
That throws a wrench in thisidea that saints aren't able to
make their own decisions butthey'll just persevere no matter

(01:02:36):
what.
That's not true.
Grace is resistible.
The Bible has mentionedmultiple times that they
resisted the grace of God.
They resisted the word of God.
People can choose.
They can use their free will toresist.
And again, I don't say this tooffend anybody In that doctrine
it makes God the only sinnerbecause he's the one ordaining

(01:02:59):
everything.
You're telling me he's the onewho ordained the father down the
road to beat his baby to deathwith a hammer.
No, that's literally outrageous.
God did not sovereignly ordainthat and say this is what I want
to happen, so I'm going toforce people to do this.
He's not a puppeteer up theredoing that.
People have free will.

(01:03:20):
People can choose to whetheryou're going to submit to the
word, resist the devil, andhe'll flee, or you can just give
in to his temptations, and it'sliterally as simple as that.
That's why this whole idea thatthere's no free will.
No, there's free will.
There's absolutely free will.
And the reason the enemy istrying to undermine free will

(01:03:42):
and people don't even understandand I don't mean to get
political he's doing it rightnow in the world.
He's saying I was born this way, I don't have a choice.
Right right, okay, okay, you dohave a choice.
But the moment you think youdon't have a choice because, see
, I'm passionate, about this.

(01:04:00):
You just believe it yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:03):
I'm passionate about this because it's the lie that
the enemy peddled to me.
He told me, the only way you'regoing to get out of this thing
is if I allow it.
You don't have a choice.
Your will is now mine, and it'sa lie.
You always have a choice.
You have a choice, even if yourwill is influenced.
And not only my testimony, butwe have a biblical account of a
man who was possessed bythousands of devils and even

(01:04:26):
they couldn't stop him.
I mean, it's simple.
We've heard it preached.
They could not stop him fromrunning to the feet of Jesus and
falling down at his feet, andthe Bible says worshiping him.
Literally, an army of devilscould not stop one person who
was willing, who used their freewill and said I am willing to
run to the feet of Jesus andworship.
And so which is funny is becausepossession has a caveat.

(01:04:49):
They can possess you in nearlyevery area, except the avenue
Well, the avenue of worship.
If you choose to worship theLord, they can't stop you.
They cannot stop, they cancontrol almost.
You know, I haven't fullystudied this out, but I think

(01:05:11):
they can control almosteverything else.
But if you decide, I'm going toget up and I'm going to go to
church today.
They can't stop you.
If you decide, I'm going to hitmy knees right now and I'm
going to cry out to the Lord.
They can't, they cannot.
That's the one thing.
They can't stop.
An army of them couldn't stopthe man in Gadara.

(01:05:30):
Yeah, that's so good.

Speaker 3 (01:05:32):
I didn't mean to get off on that.
Maybe it was the coffee.

(01:05:36):
No, it was really good.
You know, as you talk, I'm like, oh man, that's yeah, but I'm
just sitting here very attentive, and so then I just go blank on
what.

Speaker 3 (01:05:47):
I want to say, because I've got to listen.

(01:05:51):
But no, there's so many wonderful principles and I know
I've heard you preach now um alot and I know you're very
principally based and I thinkthe bible is a book of
principles because we could takethat and apply it to so many
different situations, you know.
But I think about I I thinkabout luke 4, 18 a lot, because

(01:06:15):
I think it really encapsulateswhere everybody's living.
You know, they're either livingout of their wounded heart,
they're living out of deception,or they're living out of
captivity yeah and and and what.
what breaks all of that is thepresence of the Lord, the
presence of the Lord.
Just preaching the gospel to thepoor.

(01:06:37):
So I want to move over intoblood now.
Sure, with my clientele-basedself-harm has become a very
popular thing.
I think tattoos became verypopular.
They became very trendy.

(01:06:57):
Suicide actually became verytrendy, but a lot of people have
cut and many kids in churchhave cut, and I know the Bible
says that life is in the blood,and so I wanted you to maybe
talk about um, how cutting, umwillfully cutting, how that

(01:07:24):
makes a covenant, makes anagreement with the enemy, and
and the power of the cross,because I think again, as
christians, we just apply theblood of Jesus, because that's
what we've been told forever.
But I really want to make theblood of Jesus applicable in how
that it can heal diseases,especially blood diseases, which

(01:07:46):
I believe is cancer right.
One of them, but I think we'remissing a level of revelation in
this that maybe you can speakto, as it relates to both sides
of the spirit realm where bloodis concerned.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
So in Leviticus it says do not mark or mar your
body, for I am the Lord, and weuse that to to talk.
Talk against tattoos.
And yeah, I agree, but I meancontextually, no, no, no person
who's being academically honestwill say that that was a

(01:08:26):
respective reference to tattoos.
I mean, I'm just just to betransparent, I mean I.
I mean I'm not encouragingsomebody to go get one.

(01:08:33):
Right right.

Speaker 3 (01:08:34):
I'm just saying to be intellectually honest, that's
not what it was referring to,because I mean even context.
I mean, if they reread that donot mark or mar your body, for I
am the Lord, okay, why wouldyou follow that up by saying,
for I am the Lord?
Well, it was common practice inthat day that they would cut

(01:08:56):
themselves.
But they would cut themselvesin order to invoke certain
spirits, right.
But then again, these pagan—Bail particularly Right.
There were so many differentpagan cultures, though it's
difficult to nail down whichones they were referring to.
So I tend to stay not withgeneralizations, as in like a

(01:09:19):
bad way, but like as far as thecommon denominator.
So I'm not going to highlightone pagan culture over another,
because we don't know whatexactly the Lord was referring
to, but we just know he saiddon't mark or mar your body and
so.
But I saw just refer to thegeneral practice.
These pagans would cutthemselves in a form of a ritual
, and some had different caveatsas to what it was for, but it

(01:09:43):
was all spiritually induced.
Every, every.
They didn't just cut their bodyfor no reason.
It all, every bit of it, hadsome sort of spiritual
connotation to it, whether thatwas to invoke a spirit, whether
that was to signify to othergroups of people or to other
tribes that they belong to thisfalse god or to this.
They cut themselves fordifferent reasons, but the root

(01:10:06):
of it always had a spiritualconnotation, had a spiritual
connotation, and so and and youknow, I I don't know, I can I
can deduce that it is because Ithink it destroys the temple.
I think it's, it's marring theimage and you know, we're

(01:10:27):
supposed to steward what Godgives us.
That includes our bodies, and Ithink by mutilating it it is
almost one, a form ofcarelessness, but two, if we're
not careful.
There's a certain spirit behindstuff like that that crosses
when you begin to harm flesh.
It crosses the line Like.

(01:10:47):
I can't explain it.
I don't have the understandingto be able to explain it right
now, but I've watched, I've seenit.
There's something that happensto the human soul when they
begin to cross that line intoharming flesh, whether that be
their own or somebody else.
There's a certain spirit thatif you're not careful, it's very

(01:11:15):
, very very vile, very wicked,very twisted and like.
That's why you know there's afunny saying.
You know they probably torturedcats when they were little, you
know Right, but that saying Imean it isn't for nothing.
Because, that does it like Ican't explain it.
You can almost see it.
It'll twist the soul.
I vividly remember when I cutmy hand to sign.

(01:11:45):
There was something thatchanged.
That's why people who arecombat veterans, who've seen war
I've sat down and talked to alot of them.
You can see it marks their soul.
There's something that when youcross that barrier, like Cain
did, it does something.
You know God set his mark uponCain and people might shoot me
full of holes for this becausethey might say that you know

(01:12:08):
that's not applicable, but Ithink it is.
I think that was a principle.
That's not applicable, but Ithink it is.
I think that was a principle.
I think when you take that stepand hurt and harm flesh, when
it's not in the will of God,because you know he did order
His armies to subdue otherarmies, but when you do it, I
think it leaves a mark on you.
Just as God marked Cain, now hemarked Cain, so people would

(01:12:31):
know.
But people who operate in thespirit will know what I'm
talking about.
There are certain marks onpeople's souls where you know
some places that they've been.
I can come in contact withpeople and I know if there's
been a past of molestation.
A lot of times it marks thesoul.
Now I'm not saying God didn'tcover it with his blood.
I'm not saying I'm digging upsomething underneath the blood,

(01:12:51):
right, right.
I'm saying that there are.
It just marks the human soul.
It leaves its imprint and Ithink, the physical.
You know there's something itmight mirror itself in the
physical you know, as far ascutting, but that's my take on
it.
You know I've never understoodit.
You know I've never, I've neverunderstood it.

(01:13:13):
You know I never had.
I can't speak from it.
I never had the urge to harmmyself.
You know I I never.
That was just never an avenuethe enemy used to attack me.
So I can't speak on it.
That what I, what I said,that's my, that's my take on it
is you know, I do believe ifsomebody's not careful they can

(01:13:36):
slip off into something very,very, very dark, very quick if
they're not careful.

(01:13:43):
I was thinking of it in terms of covenant, you know especially
the covenant Jesus made with uson the cross, and then you know
like you cutting yourself tomake that covenant.
You know, I've just alwayswondered about that.

(01:14:05):
I had bought a book oncebecause I looked at several
cultures.
It was about the blood,particularly about the blood of
Jesus, but how that culturesacross antiquity and even now
use blood in ritualistic stuffand sacrificial stuff.

(01:14:28):
And so I've wondered when theenemy can get a kiddo to spill
their own blood.
Is that you know a covenantthat they don't even know
they're entering into?

Speaker 3 (01:14:45):
I would say I don't know that.
I would personally say it was acovenant.
It might be.
To me, speaking from mybackground and kind of knowing
lightly how the enemy works, Iwould say it shows what cards

(01:15:07):
are in the human's hands, andwhat I mean by that is—.

(01:15:12):
That they're susceptible to.

Speaker 3 (01:15:14):
Right.
Right, it's letting him knowhow far they'll go, and so that
will give up.
That's why I say the spiritworld is built of avenues.
That in and of itself is anavenue of communication.
It's communicating to thatspirit.
There's something behind thecutting, there's a piece of
their will that's off, it'sslighted.
And so now I know that they'rewilling to go certain lengths by

(01:15:37):
them making that gesture andcutting themselves.
That's the avenue and they'resaying, okay, there's something
behind that.
Now I know there's somethingoff there.
They're willing to go tocertain lengths, and so it'll.
Just, it's like an indicator,like, okay, now I see, does that
make sense?
That's my take on it.

(01:15:59):
Now there are certain thingsthat have the intentions of
covenant I'm thinking of.
I believe it's Genesis 38,where I don't remember if God
ordered Moses to cut the animalsand lay them in half or cut
them in half or if God did thathimself.
But there's this vision thatAbraham goes into, where there's

(01:16:22):
this path and there's halves ofanimals on each side, and the
Bible says that the Lord walkedthrough and met Abraham and said
and met Abraham and said theymade a covenant and said so, be
one of us like these animals ifwe don't uphold our end of the
covenant and little to mostpeople.
That was messianic and what.

(01:16:43):
God was saying is let me become,like you know, one of these if
I don't end up, if I don'tuphold my covenant.
Now he did, but what he did washe paid the price because the
seed of Abraham didn't upholdtheir covenant and they were
supposed to become like the cutand bloody marred animals on
each side, but instead and Iheard one preacher say it like

(01:17:04):
this you don't need to cutyourself, because Jesus was cut
on the cross for you.
He already bore in his body thewounds that sometimes we feel
like we need to suffer for ourwrongdoings.
He already did that.
He said in the book of Isaiah.
It's one of my favoritepassages.
He said how could I forget you?

(01:17:25):
You know I'm paraphrasing, buthe said Israel, how could I
forget you?
I've graven thee again,anthropomorphics.
I've graven thee on the palmsof my hands.
Thy walls are ever before me.
So what he was saying was, whenthey drove those nails through
my wrist, that was me engravingyour name onto my identity.

(01:17:45):
How could I forget you?
And so you know, I think therewas a time and place for
somebody's body to be cut onceand for all, and I believe that
that was Jesus.
And I believe his body was notharmed for him.
It was harmed for us, and hebore the weight of our sins and
our iniquity and our everythingthat we were supposed to go

(01:18:07):
through.
And I know some people that'swhy they feel the need to cut
themselves.
Maybe it's a form of punishment, maybe it's a form of release.
Whatever the reason, jesus wascut for you, but that's my take
on it.

(01:18:21):
Yeah, no, that's good, that's good.
I was just thinking.
I think it was years beforegrowing up in church.
I never understood the cross inany real revelatory way.
I don't think because I knew hedied for my sins, I knew it was

(01:18:41):
my way to salvation, I knewintellectually- but, then when
you just look at the power inthe blood of Jesus, that life is
in the blood.
Just look at the power in theblood of Jesus that life is in
the blood and we apply the bloodto things and it's the barrier
that protects us.
I just think it's so powerful,the ramifications of it.

Speaker 3 (01:19:03):
When.

(01:19:03):
Scripture just comes alive for us beyond.
Just okay, do this, we believethis.
I mean, I always knew it, butit meant something so much
different to me when I began tostudy the blood a little bit
more.

Speaker 3 (01:19:20):
This was actually when I read this.
This was going to be myfavorite part of the whole
session.
And sometime back, the Lordgave me a revelation about the
blood Not just blood in general,but his blood and I'm telling
you it changed everything,literally everything.

(01:19:41):
This, right here.
I was so ready for this portionof the podcast right here.
So I want to open up the talkabout blood with this story, and
this is you can go and look itup If you want to.
I can send you a link to thearticle.
You can link it in the podcastif people don't believe me.

(01:20:01):
I mean, it's great.
They've done studies on this andI'm going to paraphrase.
There's a lady who was joggingone day and some man came out of
the woods and tried to stab herto death.
Some guy found her and they puther in an ambulance.
Paramedics rushed her to thehospital.
They lost her.
Well turned out she was anorgan donor.

(01:20:22):
So they harvest her organs andthere was a little.
I think she was an 11 year oldgirl either 11 or 9 or something
of that and she needed a hearttransplant.
So they transplanted the heartof this lady who was jogging and
some guy you know, but theynever found who it was who

(01:20:45):
murdered her.
So all of a sudden, the mothersaid and the article is slipping
me, I can't remember the time,but she said her daughter
started to change.
It was within the year, shesaid, like she started to have
dreams and what we would callvisions of some very dark things

(01:21:07):
.
She didn't want to sleep aloneat night.
I mean, it was a whole crazy,you know.
So her mother took her to apsychologist alone at night.
I mean, it was a whole crazy,you know.
So her mother took her to apsychologist.
She would know, you know, aboutthis, and a psychologist can't
get any real breakthrough notnot understanding this.
All of a sudden, emotional shift, mental shift, everything like

(01:21:28):
this.
This, this little world wasmessed up.
And the psychologist, um, shehad had and you would know how
this works, I don't know if sherequested or had access prior to
her medical files, you know,when you go into a psychologist,
but she's looking through andshe sees this heart transplant.

(01:21:54):
And so the little girl had beentelling this is what was
freaking her out, the dreams.
She started having dreams thatshe was being stabbed to death
and they got more and more vivid, more vivid, more vivid.
She started to see the guy'sface, and so she said this is

(01:22:17):
weird.
And this is like something youthink was out of a movie.
This actually happened.
Colleges have studied this.
So, they ask her.
She goes back in and she sayswould you be able to describe if
I brought somebody in?
You know, would you be able todescribe if these men were
placed in front of you?
Would you be able to point themout?

(01:22:38):
And this little girl saidabsolutely.
So they brought in a sketchartist and they sketched a
picture.
And they look and there's amatch there's a man who lived in
the area that the jogger wasmurdered, and so this is I mean,
this is like literally noevidence Like this isn't enough

(01:22:58):
to put somebody behind bars.
So they went out on a limb andsaid you know what?
We'll just question the guy.
There's nothing wrong withquestioning him.
So, they sent police officers toquestion the guy.
That the guy buckled at thedoor and admitted to it all and
said it was me I murdered her.
I've been living with it all myconscience.
So I think don't quote me on it.

(01:23:20):
The article will say I think Ican't remember if it was Yale or
there's a lot of colleges thathave studied it, but I think
they called it genome memory ormapping or something like that,
and the only thing they couldconclude is that somehow the

(01:23:43):
heart remembered things.
And so then, all of a sudden, Icoupled this information with
there are tons of studies thatshow when people get blood
transfusions, they pick uphabits that they've never had
before, or they pick updisciplines that they've never
had before.
They start going to the gym,they start eating, all because

(01:24:04):
they've had blood transfusions.
But what they don't understandis that there is life in the
blood.
Man that's powerful and so,because the blood speaks, you
take this, you take this, and Ibelieve that is where most what
people call generational curseslive.
I think they live in the blood,and so you take this now, apply

(01:24:30):
it to the blood of Jesus.

(01:24:30):
It has to live in the blood, because that's where life is.
That's where life is.

Speaker 3 (01:24:33):
So now you take all of this now apply it to the
blood of Jesus.
It has to live in the blood,because that's where life is.
That's where life is.
So now you take all of this,all of these principles, and
apply it to the blood of Jesus.
And so, all of a sudden, whenyou take on the blood, you start
picking up habits that you'venever had before.

(01:24:48):
You start picking up disciplines you've never had
before.
It changes us.
It really changes us.
It's not just words.

Speaker 3 (01:24:53):
It literally changes you.
Yeah and so, but here's thething I'm going to put a plug in
for all of my Pentecostalsthere's only one way you can
have the blood of Jesus, thetrue sacrifice, applied to your
life.
And that is when you're baptizedin the only saving name of
Jesus Christ, not in the titles.
That's why it's reiterated it'snot for religion.

(01:25:13):
The only way that that bloodcan be applied to your life is
if you do like the apostle saidin Acts chapter 2 and Acts
chapter 8, acts chapter 10, actschapter 19,.
You've got to be baptized inhis name, because then you're
buried in Christ and the bloodof Jesus is applied to you, and
so that's why you can say you'rea new creature.

(01:25:34):
It's because you've got newblood.

(01:25:38):
Because the iniquity runs through our bloodline and so his
blood takes away all theiniquity and cleanses it from
all of that, which is all theway back to Genesis 2.
I did not know about thosestudies, but that makes sense
because, I'm like epigeneticcellular, cellular transference,

(01:26:00):
you know, because I'm a hugebeliever in generational curses
and generational blessing, um,because it's evident.
I mean, you just talk to afamily, you can see what runs
through their family.
It's generational and you knowcurses has such a bad
connotation to it.
But it's just so evident thatthe Bible I feel like science

(01:26:23):
proves over and over and overhow real the Bible is.
Yeah, but wow, that is sopowerful Because we really do
have the power.
Yeah, yeah, you know.
When they say that the Lordgives you the power to tread on
serpents and all of that, it'sbecause of the power of His

(01:26:45):
blood that speaks that lives.

Speaker 3 (01:26:50):
That's why it says the blood of Jesus speaketh
better things than that of Abel.
Yes, because the blood's stillalive.
Abel's blood cried out forjustice.
Jesus has cried out for mercy,and so his blood can speak as
well.
He's got a voice.
Yeah, and so there's.
I'm telling you you could spendhours on talking about blood,

(01:27:15):
the blood of Jesus, and how it Imean it's to me.
When I found that out, it wasremarkable.
Oh yeah, I mean, it's just I'llhave to send you the study yeah
.

(01:27:29):
Yeah, I'm just picturing having you know you preach that
message at a church with peoplewho have disease processes
running through their body.
Embrace the transformative workof the blood of Jesus from a

(01:27:55):
faith perspective and then applyit.
You know, I think we would seeso much more divine healing, so
much more.

Speaker 3 (01:28:04):
Absolutely, absolutely.

(01:28:08):
And so, like I wasn't thinking about this, but I'm just
thinking about it now, what roledo you think communion plays?
Because I know a lot of in ourchurch culture we don't really
do communion a lot because theysee it as I think, they see it
as ritualistic.
But I know other Christiansthat take it all the time and I

(01:28:31):
know one guy who hadHuntington's disease.
He had a sister and I think amother pass away from
Huntington's disease, which is adebilitating disease.
He took communion every day forover a year I think, and the
Lord has completely healed himof that.

(01:28:52):
So do you have any thoughtsabout communion and applying the
blood?
Because the Bible says as muchas you do this in remembrance of
me.

Speaker 3 (01:29:01):
Absolutely.
So you know I think I'msometimes I can be a big word
guy, and you know we call itcommunion, and so for me it is a
regrounding.
Communion is not ritualistic,communion is a relational term.

Speaker 4 (01:29:26):
That's why I said, when you do this, oh, that's so
good.

Speaker 3 (01:29:28):
Do this in remembrance of me.
So for me, it could bedifferent for anybody, but for
me, you know, when you do thework of the ministry, you get
caught up in a lot of otherstuff and I think when you take
communion it will reground youto the center of this entire
thing that we do, and that isthe cross.
He said when you eat this bread, remember that it was my body.

(01:29:48):
When you take this cup,remember that was my blood that
was poured out.
And so for me, you know, when Iclose my eyes during communion,
I say God, you know, it's soeasy to get all of these other
things out of order, but I'm sothankful that in this moment of
true communion with you, itregrounds me to where this whole
thing started, to what is thisall about?

(01:30:09):
And it's about you on the cross.
It's about you making a way forall of humanity.
And so for me, that's whatcommunion is about.
And I think there is a powerwhen people finally see the
image of the cross.
And I think that's where, youknow, some people are healed,
some people are delivered.
I've seen people receive theHoly Ghost during communion

(01:30:30):
services.
I mean because it puts Jesusback in his right place.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, that's good, that'sfor me.
You know, it might be differentfor other people, but for me
it's about communion.
It's about.
You know, just reflecting onwhat he did.

(01:30:46):
Right, yeah, to make it tangible because, like I said, I
think we get so caught up withthe religiosity of the cross
that it's not always applicablein ways that I wish that it were
more, and hopefully it's movingin that direction and maybe it

(01:31:11):
is in other places I'm justseeing it now you know, for me.
You know that's probably areally great place to end.
Thank you so much.
I just really appreciate youand your ministry and your
insight and your revelation andthe way you see the Bible
through principles.

(01:31:31):
It's so applicable, I think, toany situation, wherever it is
that we're living.
So thank you for your time andyour dedication and your prayer
life and, yeah, like I said, themessages I've listened to have
just really ministered to me andI appreciate you.

(01:31:53):
I'm really glad to know you.

Speaker 3 (01:31:56):
I'm glad to know you as well.
Thank you, I hope it encouragesand blesses somebody.
I appreciate the work you'redoing.
I think there are a lot ofvoices out there, but it's
always good to have a good voice.

(01:32:10):
Thank you, thank you so much.
Okay, I'm going to send yousome emails about some things
but I hope you have a wonderful,wonderful day.

Speaker 3 (01:32:19):
Yes, ma'am, you too God bless.

(01:32:27):
God bless.
Story of redemption or haveworn the label of a backslider.
We would love to hear from youIf you'd like to support our
ministry.
Your donation will be taxdeductible.

Speaker 4 (01:32:45):
Visit our website at kathychastaincom.
We hope you will tune in forour next episode.

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