God Was Too Hard- TRB#16- Tamara Farmer

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At just fifteen years old, Tamara Mazon-Farmer had her world shattered when someone she deeply admired in church delivered a crushing prophecy: she would never marry, never have children, never know that kind of love. This devastating message—which she now recognizes as a false word—became an identity she "put on like a jacket" every morning, eventually driving her away from faith entirely.

In this raw and vulnerable conversation, Tamara courageously traces her journey from devoted church girl to a life consumed by addiction and darkness. After walking away from Bible college, she plunged into years of alcohol abuse, married an atheist, and faced increasingly dangerous situations—including a chilling supernatural encounter that forced her to call on the very God she thought she'd abandoned.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider with your
host, kathy Chastain.
Christian-based psychotherapistand Redeemed Backslider.
This podcast is dedicated tothose who have wandered but are
ready to return to thelife-changing power of grace and
the freedom found in Jesus.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider.
I'm your host, Kathy Chastain.
I'm a Christian-basedpsychotherapist and I'm also a
Redeemed Backslider.
With me today via Zoom isTamara Mazzone-Farmer, and she
hails from Illinois.
So, Tamara, welcome to thebroadcast.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really excited to sharewhat God has done.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, I'm excited to hear your testimony For the
viewers out there.
Tamara, her mom and dad attendchurch with me and she grew up
apparently in the same churchthat I did.
But I think when you were thereI was out being crazy, you know
, not serving God at that time,so I don't remember a lot of you

(01:14):
know of you being there.
I don't know how old you werewhen you ended up leaving, but I
was away from our church fromthe age of about 14, 15 to 28,
and I'm much older than you, soyou're probably just a little
kiddo at that time.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yeah, I remember seeing you come and visit the
church and sit with your parentsfor special occasions and
holidays and stuff, um, so I doremember you, uh, and I knew
that you were friends with myparents.
Um, but my family, I, we didn'twe sorry, I'm a little nervous

(02:01):
Um, we got in church when I was10.
Oh, when you were 10.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
So I wasn't raised there from ababy baby.
I was 10 years old and had afriend invite me to Sunday
school and I kept coming toSunday school with her, and then
her parents invited my parents,and so here we are.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Do you know what year that was, by any chance?
I'm just curious what year wasit when you were 10?

Speaker 3 (02:31):
93.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Okay, okay, yeah, I don't think I was not in church
at that time when that was.
So I okay.
So tell me the story.
The story you were you thefirst one then to come to church
, and then your parents cameafter that.
It sounds like what you said.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yeah, so my friend invited me to Sunday school and
I would come with her as oftenas I could on Sundays because
all of my friends went to somekind of a church and we were
kind of the only family and Icome from a big family, so we're
the only kids on the block onSundays so anytime I got to go

(03:15):
and do something else and Iloved it.
So any chance I got I went toSunday school and then when her
parents invited her mom,actually invited my mom to come,
and my mom came for two yearsbefore my dad came into the

(03:35):
church.

Speaker 2 (03:38):
Okay, and then where do you fall in the lineup of
children?
Are you the oldest, youngest?
Are you the oldest?

Speaker 3 (03:46):
I am the oldest of six.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Okay, you are the oldest.
Okay, so tell me what life waslike growing up at 10, coming
into the church, having your momcome in.
I know a little bit about yourmom and dad's story.
Maybe one day I'll have themshare it.
But when they did get in churchthey got all the way in.
I mean it's pretty miraculouswhat God did in their life.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
Yes, god instantly changed my parents and my family
unit just became so muchstronger and we always had a
really strong family bond.
That's just the way that wewere raised, even from little
kids.
I can remember us always beingsuper close.
But when my parents gave theirlife to the Lord and started

(04:39):
going to church, everythingchanged, but in a good way.
It was peaceful and God was inthe middle of it.
And for my mom, I think, thetransition was a little bit
easier than it was for my dad.
But once my dad jumped in, Imean, like you said, they were

(05:02):
all the way in sold out, and soit was amazing.
We had a wonderful childhood.
I don't think I could haveasked for a better childhood
than the one I had.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
Oh, that's beautiful.
That's really nice.
So walk me through your story.
I know that you were in churchand then you became a backslider
and you're living for the Lordnow.
Where do you want to begin?

Speaker 3 (05:39):
Well, I'll just start at the beginning.
So from the time I was, we'llstart like youth camp age, I
would go to youth camps and Iwould, you know, get involved as
much as I could.
From a really early age I felta call to music ministry and so

(06:01):
I grew up singing.
My dad plays guitar and hesings, and so we would go and we
would sing at different, mostlySpanish churches or different
you know events and stuff, andso that started when I was
probably 10 or 12 years old andthen I joined the youth group

(06:21):
and the youth choir and I jumpedright in.
I didn't have a problemtransitioning.
I don't ever.
I was trying to think today.
I don't think I was one whoever had a problem with, you
know, standards or beingdifferent.

(06:41):
I knew I was different.
I knew that I was kind of anawkward kid.
Anyway, I'm kind of an awkwardadult.
That's just who I am.
You know I've learned toembrace it.
But you know, so I just I don'tremember struggling in that way

(07:02):
through school.
I was fortunate to have othergirls at my school who only wore
skirts and who had the samestandards as I did.
So it wasn't too difficult, Ishould say.
I'm sure I fought it a littlebit, just because when you're 10
years old you want to, you know, fit in with all your friends

(07:24):
and stuff.
But I don't remember strugglingwith it that much.
My hair was probably my biggeststruggle and that's mainly
because I didn't know what to dowith it.
I have all of this, you know,massive amount of curly hair and
I have no idea what to do withit.
So, again, it was just reallygood.

(07:48):
You know, our youth group wasfun, we all I don't feel like we
were real clicky, I feel likewe all kind of got along and it
really was wonderful.
And so I was involved with asmany things as I could be, just
to occupy my time.
And I wasn't interested in,like school things because I

(08:09):
wanted to do God things, Iwanted church things, I wanted,
you know, to be a part of whatGod was doing.
And so I would say that myheart change, I guess, happened
when I was about 15, 15 or 16.

(08:31):
There was somebody in thechurch who I really, really
looked up to and, looking back,I definitely had her on a
pedestal because she hadeverything I wanted she had the
most beautiful voice, she had abeautiful family.
She was anointed.
Everything that I, you know, asa 15-year-old child, could

(08:57):
think like, wow, if I could belike somebody you know, I would
want that type of life or thattype of ministry.
Not knowing of course, what wasgoing on behind the scenes, if
anything.
But this was somebody that Ihad really admired and we had

(09:18):
went to a youth service.
It was at another church andwhile I was there of course,
when you're 15, 16 years old,you're checking out the boys and
all of that stuff and I hadmade a comment about somebody in
particular and I said I don'teven remember exactly what I

(09:41):
said, to be honest but herresponse to me was that's not
God's plan for you.
You will never be married, youwill never have children, you
will never be loved like that,you will never know love like
that.
Because that is not God's plan.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
So I raised my hand because there's a little delay
in hearing you, but I just wantto clarify.
So this person that you lookedup to, that you admired, that
you wanted your life to be like,is the one that said this to
you.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
She totally spoke death over you.

Speaker 3 (10:21):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
But as a 15-year-old you would have had no way of
knowing that no.

Speaker 3 (10:29):
I didn't.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
So you totally believe that what she said was
from God.

Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:37):
Oh, my goodness.
I wonder you know how oftenthat happens in church.
I really wonder how oftensomething like that happens.
But anyways, go on.
That's awful.

Speaker 3 (10:54):
I think it happens more than what we realized, or
it used to happen.
I feel like people spoke morefreely in generations past than
they do now.
Um, but yeah, you will never beloved, you will never have kids
, you will never get married,you'll never know love like that

(11:15):
, and it broke my heart.
Um, and I just felt defeated.
Um, there is nothing more thanI have ever wanted in my life as
to be a wife and a mother.
I have felt since early on avery strong call to love, and

(11:38):
knowing God is love and God'slove.
I just couldn't imagine Himgiving me this and then saying,
oh, but you can't have it, it'snot for you.
But, because of who this personwas in my life.
I took it and I carried it withme for a long time.

(12:03):
I used to say I put it on likea jacket.
Every day I'd just pick itright back up and put it on.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
Did you talk to anyone about it?
Did you tell anybody?

Speaker 3 (12:16):
No, I didn't.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
You didn't talk to your mom or your pastor.
No who was the youth leaders atthat time.

Speaker 3 (12:24):
Your pastor, who was the youth leaders at that time?
The youth leaders at that time,I think we were in a transition
.
It was, I think, right before,brother and Sister.
Cain came, and so I think itwas kind of a transitional

(12:44):
period.
But no, I didn't share thatwith anybody because I was
embarrassed about it.
I was ashamed of it.
What is wrong with me that Godis going to not give me the
desires of my heart?
Because that's there.
And so there has to besomething wrong with me because

(13:06):
that's not God's plan for mylife.
So sorry, it's difficult.
Still, it was really.
It was hard.
It was hard to go through, youknow, the rest of my teenage

(13:28):
years.
Of course I did it.
You know, I could put on asmile and I could, you know, go
through the motions and I lovedthe Lord and so I just accepted
it at some point.
You know, god, if that's notyour will for me, okay, show me
what is.
And so I wasn't interested indating after that.
I wasn't interested in.

(13:49):
You know, I always madecomments, kind of just to fit in
, but you know, deep down Ididn't.
I didn't present myself thatway, I wasn't.
I knew that that wasn't God'splan for me.
I wasn't.
I knew that that wasn't God'splan for me.

Speaker 1 (14:04):
So I just found other things to do, you believed that
it wasn't.

Speaker 3 (14:10):
Right, right.
I believed that that was notGod's plan, so I just didn't
entertain it in my heart fromthen on.
And it was painful, and so Iwent through high school and
after high school I did a yearat college, at COS, and then I

(14:31):
went off to Bible college and Iloved Bible college.
It was such a wonderfulexperience and that's a
testimony in itself.
God spoke to me in Biblecollege and told me that I would
live in Illinois and I had no,I didn't know.
Yeah, I didn't know anybody inIllinois.

(14:52):
I had no desire to come toIllinois, so that's a whole
separate testimony.
But God was very clear with it.
And it's funny because I sharedit with one of my friends from
Bible college and then when Imet my husband I was like and he
lives in Illinois, and you know.
So it kind of broughteverything full circle and

(15:13):
together.
But while I was at Biblecollege when did you go to Bible
college?
I went to Christian Life CollegeOkay, in Stockton, in Stockton,
to Christian Life College inStockton, and I loved it.
I got involved with thingsthere and in helping daughter
work churches and, you knowagain, music ministry and

(15:36):
wherever the Lord would use me.
That's where I wanted to be.
But again, I still carried theweight of this jacket, of this
burden that I wasn't lettinganybody else in or anybody else
see.

(15:57):
And after my first year of Biblecollege, my family was going
through some things and so Icame home to be with my family.
My family was going throughsome things and so I came home
to be with my family and Istruggled a lot with it.
And it was then that I began tostruggle with the standards and

(16:20):
the you know, all of the thingsthat go along with it, even
though I had a walk with God.
Still, I just didn't understandit completely and I didn't
necessarily agree with the waythings were being presented to
me.
Not that they were incorrect,just the presentation of them
was not appealing and it wasn'tsomething that I wanted anything

(16:41):
to do with quite honestly, thatI wanted anything to do with
quite honestly.
So I did it for other peopleand by the time I was an adult I
didn't have to do it for otherpeople anymore because I'm an
adult.
And so, you know, I prayed and Istill struggled internally with

(17:03):
that, and so it just felt likeI was just, you know, putting
more weight on, and I wound upgoing back to Bible college for
about six months and while I wasthere my life just completely
changed.
That weight became too much andI didn't know how to give it to

(17:26):
God and not pick it back up,because that had become such a
huge part of my identity andwhat I thought of myself.
I didn't know how to just leavethat at the altar.
And so I became friends withpeople who weren't doing godly
things and who were making otherchoices.

(17:49):
And, you know, I followed suit.
And so I wound up backslidingout of Bible college and I was
supposed to sing at a serviceone night and I had been, you
know, just running wild beforethat.

(18:12):
And when I got up on theplatform, you know, of course
I'm frantically calling myfriends to see if they'll switch
nights with me so I don't haveto get up and sing right after.
I know that I've done all ofthese wrong things and nobody
could do it.
And so I got up there on thatplatform and I looked around and

(18:36):
it was an amazing service andGod was moving and there are
people at the altar weeping andthere are people at the altar
weeping and I just couldn't doit.
I could not be a hypocrite, Icould not.
I knew that I needed to be onthe other side of that platform
at the altar and I wasn't, andso I put my microphone down and

(18:59):
I walked off the platform andnever walked back up there.
I did.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
I just want to interject really quick.
I just want to say that that is.
I love that you did that.
I love that you recognize thegodly conviction, because that's
purity.
I think that was the purity ofyour heart towards the Lord and

(19:30):
I think you did the right thingfrom a heart posture place, you
know, and that would have had tobe so embarrassing, wondering
what someone was going to think,what it's going to mean for you
for school to just walk off.
But, Tamara, I think the factthat you honored what was right

(19:50):
in that moment was reallyimportant because you were doing
it between you and the Lord.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yeah well, thank you, it was not easy and it was
embarrassing.
Thank you, it was not easy andit was embarrassing.
I always wanted to remain closeto God, even when I wasn't in
church and when I wasn't doingthings that were right.
I didn't ever want to go toofar where I couldn't feel that

(20:28):
and I didn't want to lose that.
And so for me at that moment,walking away was the best thing
I could do.
And I walked off that platformand I walked into the prayer
room that was at the back of thechurch and I had a conversation
with God and just laid it allout and I said your way hurts
and I don't want to hurt anymore.
And I said your way hurts and Idon't want to hurt anymore, and

(20:48):
I don't know how to give it upto you.
I don't know how not to let itdown, just leave it alone.
So I'm going to walk away andI'm going to try it my way,
because your way is too hard,and so it was a very conscious
decision.
It wasn't something that Islipped into, or you know, I

(21:13):
made a lot of really baddecisions while I was gone, and
that was the first one waswalking away.
When I walked out of thatprayer room, I had a friend stop
me on the way out and ask me ifI was okay and I said, yeah,
I'm okay, I'm just gonna go fornow.
And that's the way I said it is.

(21:34):
I'm gonna go for now.
I always felt like in my heart Iwould come back, and I was
backslidden for probably eightto ten years and I, from the
beginning, I always felt like Iwould be back.
So the next day I withdrew fromschool and I you know, I stayed

(22:03):
with friends or you know,wherever I could until I could
get my head together.
You know, leaving a dorm roomin a school where you're safe
and protected and you haveeverything at your fingertips,
to being completely on your ownin a big city like Stockton
wasn't easy by any means.

(22:24):
But I had friends who were verygracious and let me stay and
unfortunately I guess I couldsay it that way is those friends
.
Most of them were backslidersas well.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
So it seems, seems to go that way.
Did you right away, the nextday, leave college?
You know give your notice andcheck out of college.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
Yeah, I did.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
And when you what?
Did you tell your mom and dadas to the reason that you were
making the decision?

Speaker 3 (23:01):
I don't remember the reason I gave them.
Honestly, I remember a coupleweeks before that happened I
knew that I was drifting and soI sought counsel from somebody
there and the response I got wasI don't have time.
And so my perception of thatwas well, if you don't have time

(23:31):
, then it's not that important.
And so when I went back towithdraw from school and I had
to explain to this person why Iwas leaving, they tried to
counsel me through it, but I hadjust put up a brick wall and
you didn't have time for me.
Two weeks ago, when I came toyou wanting the help I no longer
want your help because I'mgoing to do this my way now and

(23:51):
I just instantly my heart becamehardened and I didn't want
anything to do with it and Ipacked up my stuff and I left up
my stuff and I left, and sothat began kind of my downwards

(24:12):
spiral.
Some of my very best friendswere in the gay community and,
even though that wasn't mylifestyle choice, that was Say
that again, say that again.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
It cut out.

Speaker 3 (24:20):
Oh, okay, sorry, Some of my best friends that I
drifted towards were my friendsin the gay community, and, even
though that wasn't my lifestylechoice, they were all ones who
had felt rejected and who hadfelt unloved and who had felt
like they would never receivethat kind of love.

(24:44):
And so that's kind of where Igravitated towards, I guess I
can say.
I think we were all seekingjust, I mean, we were all
seeking pure love, connection,connection, you know, a place to

(25:06):
belong?
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
And so I sorry, I, you knowstarted drinking, started
partying, partying.

(25:35):
I met my first husband in SanFrancisco and we partied, we
drank all the time.
I became an alcoholic and Iwould drink six days a week,
easy, and drugs, pills, whateveryou know fun thing we could get
our hands on at the time.
And so I knew that my life wasoff track.

(25:58):
I knew my life was off, but Iwas having a good time, I was
enjoying it, I wasn't getting inany trouble, I wasn't, you know
, I still held a job, I wasstill responsible, I still, you
know, did the, you know thethings that you do as an adult,
but I was able to enjoy being anadult, if I can say it that way

(26:19):
.
And I dove in headfirst intoeverything.
And my first husband and I wewere.
And before I get into that, Ido want to say like these are

(26:43):
all my choices, I get into that.
I do want to say like these areall my choices.
So none of this is a reflectionof, you know, things that were
pushed on me.
I made my own choices and soanyway, like I said, we just
dove headfirst into alcoholism.
He was already an alcoholic whenI met him.
He came from a family ofalcoholism.

(27:05):
You know, as he was growing up,his parents owned a bar and so
he grew up in that environment.
So, for somebody who's neverbeen in church and didn't
understand anything, you knowhe's an atheist or an agnostic,

(27:27):
but if you asked him, he't tellyou he's atheist.
And so, going from beingoneness, apostolic, pentecostal
to complete opposite, you knowspectrum, and he even asked me
along the way are you sure thisis the life you want?
Are you sure that you're readyto give everything up?

(27:51):
And at that point I was because, like I said, I was having a
good time.
And so, as with using drugs andalcohol, a lot of irresponsible
decisions get made and we movedaround a lot because there's no
stability.
Now there's no.

(28:12):
He he didn't.
He worked for his dad.
His dad owned a business, adifferent business other than
the bar, and he worked for hisdad quite a bit.
But for me there was nostability.
As much as I wanted it, as muchas I tried for it, we were just
kind of like best friends whojust partied all the time.

(28:34):
And I don't even think thatwhen we got married well, I know
we shouldn't have got marriedwe were best friends and neither
one of us was going anywhere.
So it was kind of like thething to do.
We both thought we were in loveand we weren't.
We just had fun and drank allthe time.
And so on my wedding day I'llnever forget, my dad was taking.

(29:02):
We got married at the museum inHanford and my dad was taking me
there.
And because I got ready at bedand breakfast there and it was
just me and my dad, and my dadsaid are you sure this is what
you want to do?
And I said, yeah, I think so.
And he goes, are you sure?

(29:22):
And we pulled up to a stop signand he said um, if you go left,
you go get married.
If we go right, we go to pismono questions asked.
And I told him to turn rightand he turned right and then I
said no, no, no, turn around,turn around, there's all those
people there.

(29:42):
And so he turned around and Igot married and it was hard.
I mean, marriage is hard withGod sometimes, and so without
God marriage is really hard, andespecially because at this
point there were points in mebeing lost that I wanted to come

(30:09):
back, but I had no support inmy home to come back, and so it
was very hard to.
I'd go to church in the morningand then come home to a husband
who was half drunk, you know,and then come home to a husband
who was half drunk, and so itwas a really hard contrast to
live because I couldn't.

(30:29):
I knew now that I'm married,because somebody told me that
I'm never going to get married,so I'm going to show you and I'm
going to get married, but nowI'm married and so I have to
stay married.
But I also want God and I alsowant to go to church and I also

(30:53):
want to give my life back to theLord.
But I couldn't because of whatwas going on in my home, and so
I just embraced it and I gotinto a really dark place at one
point and I was what do you mean?

Speaker 2 (31:13):
you embraced it.
You mean you accepted the factthat you're married now and that
because your husband was anatheist and he's probably not
going to come with you, so didyou at that point stop trying to
go to church.
What do you mean?
You embraced it.

Speaker 3 (31:31):
That's exactly what I mean.
I just stopped trying At thatpoint.
Jeremy and Angela were stillreally good friends and people
that I could count on and Iwould call them and you know,
counsel with them Not reallycounsel, but just talk to you.
They're my friends and you knowthey always encouraged me to

(31:52):
come back, and people from thechurch, you know, always
encouraged me.
I'd be drunk, walking down thestreet and they'd pull over just
to say hi, and they loved meand they missed me, and you know
so it was.
I always knew that there wassupport there.
However, I was now married andI knew what that meant in the
eyes of God, and so I, like Isaid, I just embraced it and

(32:16):
just decided this was mydecision.
It wasn't a mistake, it wasn'tsomething I just slipped right
into it.
You, this was a choice, and nowI have to live with the
consequences of this choice.
And so in doing that, thingsbecame really dark for me and I

(32:39):
struggled a lot, I startedcutting a lot.
I started cutting and that Inever even knew where that came
from or that that was a thing.
And so I see it now and I knowthat it was a spirit.
And I know that because, youknow, eventually I tried to

(33:03):
commit suicide and it was just adark place.
And I remember one night beingso drunk and feeling sick and
not knowing what to do, becausenow I can't call on God because
I've rejected Him twice, and soI can't call on God, because

(33:26):
I've rejected him twice and so Ican't call on him.
And so I laid in bed and Iprayed to whatever is listening
just take me now, take me out,I'm done.
And I fell asleep.
And when I woke up, I woke upbecause I couldn't breathe and I
felt like something had theirhands around my neck and I

(33:48):
looked and it was this darkshadow and I was trying to
scream but I couldn't, because Icouldn't breathe and that,
whatever it was said, I'm hereto take you out.
And I remember thinking in mybrain Jesus, jesus, jesus, you

(34:08):
gave it permission.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
I did.

Speaker 3 (34:13):
I did.
I was ready until it happenedand I did not know at the time
that spirits could do that.
Obviously, I grew up in achurch where we see deliverance
and things like that, but Ididn't know that physically they
could do that.
And I was trying to scream.

(34:35):
And I was trying to screamJesus and my husband at the time
he was in the living room,husband, at the time he was in
the living room and um, he's.
He told me, um, that he heardme scream, but he couldn't
understand what I was saying.
But I, when I woke up or when,when I came to I was in a pile

(34:58):
on the floor.
I wasn't even in my bed anymore.
So I felt like whatever thiswas had picked me up by my neck
and um, and it's like I said, Ididn't realize that that that
could happen.
But I, I, I was ready until ithad a hold of me, and then I

(35:18):
called on Jesus and um.
So from then on, um, I don'teven know what happened next.
I know that it took me a longtime before I could sleep and so
I started taking a lot of pillsto help me sleep and at one
point I took a cocktail of like23 different pills.

(35:40):
I had no idea what they were,whose they were, where they came
from.
Pills I had no idea what theywere, whose they were, where
they came from.
I was at the point in my lifewhere I was done and thankfully,
by God's grace, he wasn't donewith me.

Speaker 2 (35:58):
Tamira, hold on.
I have a couple of questions inthat piece.
There's still a little to havea couple of questions in that
piece.
There's still a little.
Some of it's getting cut off,so it's like picking up extra
words or delayed words.
So I just want to ask a couplequestions.
So you said I took a cocktailof pills.
Was that cocktail of pills thenight you said you were done, or

(36:22):
was this after?

Speaker 3 (36:25):
That was after.

Speaker 2 (36:27):
Okay, so I want to go back to the night that that
demon tried to choke you.
Before that, you said you werein a really dark place.
Had you been having any demonicencounters that you can
remember?
Like were you?
Did you feel evil around?
Did you feel there was apresence around?

(36:47):
Did you have intrusive thoughts?
Did you like, were youexperienced things that you just
sort of ignored or dismissed as, like I'm just, this must not
be real, it's just me thinkingthese things, or were you really
feeling a presence of demonicinfluence around you before this

(37:08):
night happened?

Speaker 3 (37:11):
So I definitely felt the demonic presence.
Before this happened, I wouldgo to church and I would just
want to scream out.
There was something inside ofme that just wanted to like,
just out of nowhere.
And I was able to controlmyself and not do that, because

(37:36):
I didn't want to be that personor look that way or you know
whatever, but I just you know.
So I knew something wasregistered yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:48):
And, looking back, how do you interpret that?
Do you interpret that as likeum, like oppression, or do you
feel like it was internal Um?
Because I want to.
I want to ask another question.
When you decided to marry anatheist, you did that

(38:10):
consciously.
And when he asked you are youready to give everything up?
What did you think he wasasking you at that point?

Speaker 3 (38:21):
Well, at that point he knew the type of life that I
had come from.
You know the church background.
He came to church with me onceor twice, so he knew a little
bit about my background.
I actually met him while I wasin Bible college, and so he knew
the life that I was steppingout of to be a part of this

(38:44):
other life.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Okay, now, was he a backslider as well?
You said most of your friendswere, but he was just a random
guy you met in San Francisco,okay, so the reason I asked that

(39:06):
question is I have learned alot about soul ties and someday
I'll have that conversation here.
But I wonder, because the Biblesays that fornication sex, you
know, we become one with aperson and it is the only thing,
it's the only sin that's donewithin the body.
I still don't quite know whatall that means from a sin aspect

(39:29):
and a spiritual connotation,other than we join together with
another person when we do havesex with them.
And so I think when wefornicate outside of marriage or
have extramarital affairs, weare bringing something into us

(39:49):
that doesn't really have legalgrounds, right, because both of
them are done outside thecovenant of marriage, because
both of them were done outsidethe covenant of marriage.
So, with you saying, when Iwent to church I just wanted to
scream out, I wonder and I'mthinking this out loud, you can
weigh in on this, but I'mwondering if that was part of

(40:10):
him, your oneness with him, thatwas causing that reaction, or
if you feel like it was becauseyou said I feel like it was
something in me.
Did you think that you had ademon at that point?
Were you afraid of that?

Speaker 3 (40:30):
No, I was I.
I've never thought about it likethat.
I've never thought that I havebeen demon possessed.
I know that some of the placesthat I hung out were very dark
places.
Some of those friends that Iwould hang out with were they
practiced Wicca, I believe it'scalled.

(40:50):
I'm not too familiar with it,but I you know, I know I was
around things that I shouldn'thave been around and I was
exposed to things that Ishouldn't have been.
But I have never thought of theconnection like that.
And because of the way I grewup, my first husband was also

(41:16):
the first person that I ever hadsex with, and so that would
make sense to me that it workslike that, because he was very
resistant to anything about Um,and so, yeah, I've never I've
never put that that piecetogether, um, but it makes sense

(41:42):
.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
So you were so that night that this happened.
This happened in your sleep.
You said whatever is out there.
So you weren't really prayingto God at that point and you
were aware that you were notreally praying to God at that
point, but you were feeling thatthere was a presence and you

(42:07):
were giving it permission totake you right.
I want to make sure Iunderstood that correctly.
Yeah, I bet at that point youdidn't really understand what
you were doing no.
I didn't power.
You were really giving it rightcorrect yeah.

Speaker 3 (42:24):
I did not, um it, it wasn't something that I expected
to happen.
I just wanted to not bemiserable anymore, and I was, I
was.
I was miserable.
I not only physically,spiritually, mentally.
I was disappointing my family,and that was huge for me was

(42:47):
disappointing my dad.
That was one of the hardestthings that I dealt with was
because I knew, and, um, my dadpicked me up to take me to
church one day and he saw thecuts on my arm and and I always
did it where, um, you know, upon the top of my arms or my

(43:10):
thigh, where it could be coveredwith a shirt or, you know,
pants or whatever Um, so itwasn't like it was an attention
thing.
I didn't want anybody to knowthat.
That's how I was getting somesort of release.
But my dad saw it because Iraised my arm and my shirt went
up and he asked about it and Isaid, oh yeah, well, I was just

(43:32):
drinking and I stumbled and Ihit the wall outside and it was
like stucco.
Um, I said, I hit the wall andit just it scratched my arm and
I covered it and I'll neverforget that, because he looked
at me like he knew that I waslying, but he wasn't going to
question me any further, um, andI think my dad always knew that

(43:55):
I would talk to him in my timeand I would be truthful with him
when I was ready to and at thatpoint I wasn't, I hadn't hit my
rock bottom, and so he was justletting me live, live, and he,
he knew that.

(44:16):
I knew that they were alwaysthere, um, and that they were
praying, but they had setboundaries and they were letting
me make my choices and live theconsequences of those choices.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
And um so um so after that, after that night, you
called out the name of Jesus.
Was there any recognition thathe saved you in that moment?

Speaker 3 (44:48):
I think there was.
As soon as I got my breath, assoon as I was able to breathe, I
said thank you, jesus.
And then, like I said, I wascrumbled on the floor.
I was still feeling drunk, andso I got right back up in bed
but I couldn't sleep and I wasjust.
You know, I didn't know how topray at that point, because I

(45:11):
had rejected the Lord, and so Ididn't feel like it was fair for
me to ask God to help me,because I'd walked away and
because I had made the decisionand I talked to him about it,
and so I didn't feel like it wasfair for me to just call him
when I needed him.

(45:32):
But when I don't need you, youcan just sit on the shelf over
there, you know, I know thatthat's not the type of God that
we serve, and so I wasn't surehow to go about talking to him
about it or how to turn thingsaround Because, like I said, I

(45:52):
was still married and I wasdetermined to stay married.
Married.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
And I was determined to stay married Because, again,
you were determined to staymarried because you knew how God
felt about marriage.
Isn't that ironic?
Yeah, I'm pointing this outbecause I can see, and hopefully
you can see when you look backthe thread of God all throughout

(46:20):
it.
You were still very much tryingto honor him in your marriage,
even though you felt like youcouldn't talk to him and that
you weren't serving him.
There was a piece of you thatstill was.

Speaker 3 (46:35):
I think I always kind of hoped that you know some way
, somehow some, you know, god isgoing to save him.
That way we can go to churchtogether and we can be a family
together.
And you know, all of the thingsthat I was told that I couldn't
have, I would have and it wouldall be okay.

(46:55):
I always kind of hoped that andunfortunately for me it didn't
turn out that way.
I can't say unfortunately,because the end of my story is

(47:25):
wonderful.
So, if we fast forward a littlebit, I was married for about
eight years to my first husband.
Whatever fix we could get drugs,pill, drugs or not, drugs,
sorry, alcohol and pills were,were my vices, I guess.
Um, mainly alcohol, um, but um,there came a point when, um, he

(47:52):
started to use heroin and thatwas something that he didn't
expose me to.
I had no idea At this point.
I was going to nursing schooland working three jobs to keep a
roof over our head in theMoschetto apartment in Visalia
and you know there was no timefor anything or you know any um

(48:21):
anything.
There was no quality timebecause I was studying or I was
working or I was at school and Ikind of just let him run things
and do what he wanted to do,while I was doing what I needed,
what I needed to do, what Ineeded to do, and I was kind of

(48:41):
a doormat, you know, just doingwhatever he wanted me to do just
to make him happy because I hadstuff to do.
And I had a friend in nursingschool who recognized that and I
didn't even see it at the time,I was just like, oh well,
that's kind of who he is, and myfriend was in recovery herself
and she saw all the signs andshe said you know, you don't

(49:03):
have to put up with that, youdon't have to deal with that.
And so she really instilled inme a voice and some boldness,

(49:23):
some boldness, and so I'llforever be grateful for that
because it really helped withwhat was to come.
When my husband at the timestarted using heroin he had used
heroin for probably four orfive months before I knew
anything about it he would gobehind my back and ask my
parents for money and say it wasbecause we didn't have bills.
He'd ask his parents for money.

(49:44):
So, like you know, just, and Ihad no idea that these things
were going on, and so it wasreally sad.
It makes me sad to think about.
You know the hoops that peoplewill jump through.
And so I found out because wehad just moved into an apartment

(50:07):
I was working at Folsom Prisonat this time and I had asked him
to hang a shelf and he said ohwell, I have somewhere to go, I
will do it when I get back.
Well, I got really angry becauseit's not that hard to hang the
shelf, so I'll just do it myself.
And when I went to his toolboxI found all of his stuff and

(50:33):
even though, like I said, I wasstill drinking and doing pills
and stuff, I was not preparedfor that, and so I'll never
forget my eyes went blurry,looking at it, like is this
really what I'm seeing?
And when he came home, I said Ineed to ask you something, and

(50:57):
before you lie to me, know thatI know.
And so we had a very honestconversation about it and I said
OK, at this point you've gottwo choices, because I can't
live like this, I can't do that.
Choices because I can't livelike this, I can't do that.

(51:19):
You know all of the other stuffyou know, I mean all of the
other addictions in my brainwere okay, but not that.
One Couldn't do that and so thechoices were rehab or I was
leaving, and at first he told meto go and at that point I

(51:40):
should have left, but I didn't,because my husband is sick and
if I leave him when I need himthe most, what kind of wife am I
?
So I looked at it from thatperspective.
So I began to lie for him andto cover things up for him and I

(52:09):
became part of it, even thoughI wasn't using and it was hard.
And lying to my family wasreally hard and I hated it.
I hated every second of it andhe would take my stuff and sell
it to drug dealers.
I'd have to go buy my stuffback from drug dealers.

(52:30):
I have walked through somereally dark places, physically
and emotionally, just trying tohelp in any way I could, because
I knew I had been throughnursing school, so I knew
physically what it was doing.
But also, you know, in ourfamily, our family, somebody in

(52:50):
our family had battled thataddiction and you know,
thankfully they found recoveryand they found the Lord, and so
God helped them through that.
So I knew that God could helpand I knew that God could do it,
but he was so resistant to itthat I couldn't reach him, and

(53:11):
so we made the decision you cutout a little bit.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
Oh sorry, that's okay , it's the delay, I think in the
decision you cut out a littlebit.
Oh sorry, that's okay, it'sit's the.
It's the delay, I think, in theaudio.
Um, so you became a nurse andthen I became a nurse graduate.
Okay, and so he decided not togo to rehab.
And then you started, I guess,becoming really codependent and

(53:41):
hiding from him, okay, and thenI missed some of the other stuff
you said.
You knew that God could help,but were you saying he wasn't
open to God or that you didn'tfeel like you could go to God?

Speaker 3 (54:01):
you could go to God.
No, he wasn't open to God.
So at this point I knew that hecould go to God because he had
never lived for the Lord before,and so I knew that he could.
I still hadn't accepted it formyself that I could just walk
right back in and God wouldaccept me with open arms.
However, I knew that he coulddo that.
He just didn't want it and so,like you said, I became Sorry to

(54:26):
interrupt.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
So do you think that?
Did you think at that point youhad blasphemed Because you said
he could go, because he neverhad been to God, but you didn't
feel like you could?
Did you think that you hadblasphemed at that point, or you
just didn't feel like youdidn't feel justified to go back
because you'd left?
Yeah, I just felt like it wasn'tfair for me to ask God, okay,

(54:52):
okay, because it feels like thatwas changing a little bit, like
at first you didn't feel likeit was fair, but then you didn't
feel like you could.
So I was just curious ifanything was changing in your
thought processes or if it wasjust you just didn't feel like
you could.

Speaker 3 (55:08):
Yeah, I just didn't feel like it was right for me to
go back to God, because I hadcried out to God, you know,
before, and, um, you know, likeI said, in times of trouble, or
you know, when I was sick, oryou know things, I had cried out
and then turned around and didthe same exact thing over again
and so, um, you know, I didn'tever want to feel like I was

(55:33):
using God, um, and so, um, itwas because, like I said, I knew
that he could, but it wasn'tfair for me because I wasn't
ready to give up the drinkingand the lifestyle that came
along with that.
It was fun.

(55:55):
And I looked back at one pointand remembered Brother Jeremy
saying Pentecostals are theworst backsliders, because they
fall hard and they fall fast andthey go head first, or you know
something along those lines.
And I remember, even while Iwas before, I came back to the

(56:18):
lord, thinking that like, wow,he was right.
He was right, because if I'mgoing to hell anyway, why not?
You know?

Speaker 2 (56:26):
yeah, that that was.
That was what I thought toowhen I was out there.
Yeah, which is such a lie fromthe enemy yes, yeah it is and
it's.

Speaker 3 (56:38):
It's a sad lie.
It's a sad thing for the enemyto plant that in somebody's mind
and in their heart.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
Um so um, because I I've talked to you and a couple
others and myself, like thewhole time I was away and sounds
like the whole time you wereaway you loved the Lord.
You didn't want to be apartfrom him.

(57:08):
You still desired him.
You just didn't know how toreconcile the pain, the lie that
you believed, but at that timeyou didn't know that it was a
lie and how to live with.
Yeah, anyways, it's sowonderful to me when God always

(57:29):
just knows that about us.
He knew your heart and you werestill always trying to honor
him the best.
You knew how, even though youwere drinking, you know, you
still thought very well of God.
You still sort of knew he lovedyou and you thought the good

(57:49):
things about him, not the badthings, sounds like yeah, I
never perceived God as a God whowas going to like bang me over
the head for doing wrong.

Speaker 3 (58:03):
I knew God is love and that's all I ever wanted was
love, and I just went about itcompletely wrong, wrong.

(58:27):
And so when God called me back,it has just been an amazing
love story since, because Godhas truly restored everything
that I thought I would neverhave, and so the testimony with
that is and so the testimonywith that is, we wound up in

(58:56):
Missouri because I figure, okay,out of sight, out of mind,
let's get you know around newpeople, new experiences, away
from the drugs and everybody weknow here.
And when we got to Missouri, itwasn't long after that, he
committed a crime and I had tobe the one to call the police,
because I was afraid that if Ididn't, he would wind up killed,
and so my thought process wasbetter to be in jail alive than

(59:22):
dead, and so when I did that, itwas one of the hardest things
that I had to do.
But after the police left andthe dust was starting to clear,
I sat on the front porch of whatwas my cousin's house at the
time, and I was smoking acigarette sitting on the front

(59:46):
porch and I was at my point.
I just couldn't do it anymoreand I looked up and I said God,
if you care about me, even justa little bit, I'm ready, please
help me.
I wasn't finished with thatcigarette before a church bus

(01:00:08):
pulled up to drop some Sundayschool kids off next door.
And I knew that was God.
I knew, so I walked over and itwas a United Pentecostal Church
and I walk over and I'm kind ofshy and again they didn't know
who I was.
They didn't know me or anythingabout me or my background or

(01:00:32):
what I had.
Just went through and I justasked are you Pentecostal?
And they said yes, and I knewthey were.
But I didn't know how to open aconversation.
And so we started talking andthey told me where their church
was, there in town, and so Iwent for the next service and

(01:00:54):
God totally changed my life.
God at that point began torestore me.
It was a process Addiction forme was deliverance, it was
walking away and it wasn't hardfor me walking away and it it

(01:01:14):
wasn't hard for me.
Um, you know I I didn't strugglewith um cravings or with you
know any is sitting in jail,still with the same mentality,
and I knew that I could not livelike that anymore.

(01:01:35):
And then I found out I waspregnant and that was it.

(01:01:57):
That was the easiest I'm doneever, because it's no longer
about me and it's no longerabout you, and I always knew
that I wanted to raise children,to love the Lord, and I don't
want my kids to miss the arkbecause of choices that I'm

(01:02:19):
making.
And so I still stayed marriedfor a time.
While I was pregnant, I cameback home to California to be
with my family and I got counselfrom my pastor because, again,
I'm married.
So I want this to work and Iknow what the want this to work
and, um, I know what the Lordsays about marriage and I know,

(01:02:42):
um, what you know.
I just I still felt like, if Ileave, now, what kind of wife,
what good am I as a wife if Ileave when he needs me the most
and, um, most.
And Pastor McPhail, being thewise man that he is, gave me the
best advice that I ever tookand he said it's easier to say

(01:03:13):
you can't come than it is to sayyou have to go.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
So if he's going to recover, let him do it somewhere
else and then come, but don'tlet him into your house.
Say that again, because it cutout.

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
I totally missed the whole few words.
Okay, so he said it's easier tosay you can't come than it is
to say you have to go, and so ifhe's going to recover, let him
recover somewhere else and thencome and work on your family,
but for now you need to focus onyou and your baby and getting
your life together and livingfor the Lord.

(01:03:48):
And that was so wise, because Iwas so easily manipulated
through those years and, like Isaid, I was a doormat and just
you know, I felt guilty AnytimeI wanted to make a decision to
live for the Lord.
I felt guilt because there wasthis other huge part of my life

(01:04:11):
that wasn't in alignment withthat.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm, and so, um, uh,eventually our marriage
dissolved.
Um, you know it didn't work.
Um, it was amicable, it waseverything.
Um, you know, he went his way,I went my way.
There was no fighting.

(01:04:32):
Um, you know, it wasn't ugly,and I'm grateful for that,
because it doesn't have to beugly, it doesn't have to be
contentious, and I really feellike God played a part in that
for me, on my behalf, that Godset those things into motion,

(01:04:56):
because it wasn't easy to walkaway.
And now here I am trying to gainmy footing, trying to live for
God again.
But I'm not a single woman now,I am a mother.
I am a single mother now, andso I have to get this right this

(01:05:16):
time.
There's no other way around it.
And so it was hard.
But I had really supportivepeople in my life my family, my
friends, the church everybodywas always there for me.
I jumped right back intoministry and God just completely

(01:05:38):
restored everything that Ithought that I could never have
and that I had lost.
And so I was back in California, for—let's see, carter was born
in 15, and I left in 17 or 18.
So I was in California for twoor three years before I felt the

(01:06:00):
Lord call me back to Missouri,to that small church that I had
prayed back through in.
And so I went back there and Ihelped with whatever I could,
and I loved it.
It was hard to be there and beaway from family, but I felt
like that's where God wanted me,and then just the places that

(01:06:30):
he put me in, the people that healigned in my life.
You know, everything was likecheck, check, check.
This is it.
You're on track here.
You know everything was likecheck, check, check.
This is it.
You're on track here, you know.
And so in 2018, I met myhusband and we now have three

(01:06:52):
beautiful sons and I have twobonus daughters, and you know, I
am a wife and I am a mom and Iam very loved.
My husband is wonderful.
He I know that the Lord had mein mind when he made my husband.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
He um yeah it.

Speaker 3 (01:07:15):
It makes me feel very special to God and very loved
and I know that the lord doesn'tplay favorites but sometimes.
But the life that I have.
I I kind of feel like that, um,I I'm very, very blessed, um,
especially coming out ofeverything that I did.

(01:07:35):
God totally turned everythingaround and it hasn't always been
easy and it hasn't always beensmooth, but that's life.
And I know that I had myhusband pray with me before this

(01:07:56):
podcast because my nerves, Iwas so nervous, and so just to
be in a home where we can prayopenly, where we pray with our
children, and where we'reraising our children to know and
love the Lord is just amazingto me and I'm so grateful

(01:08:17):
because I thought I would neverhave that and so

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
I do feel very, very blessed and I think you know the
lord uh, he always had that inmind for you then and we just
came in to try to steal it andto kill it, like he does, right
and um, and you know it makes mesuper excited about, because
2018 wasn't that long ago.

(01:08:43):
I think you have so much futurein front of you.
I'm I'm really excited aboutnow that you found the place
that God had always intended foryou to be like.
What is next?
Like?
What else does he have for you?
Because this the enemy workedreally hard to keep you from
finding this place with yourhusband and your family.

(01:09:06):
Ultimately, the place you arewith the Lord, because this was
his desire for your life,because he placed that in your
heart a long time ago.
So I always look at things likewhen the enemy works really hard
to defeat the purpose of God insomeone's life, what does God

(01:09:27):
really have in store for them touse them in the kingdom?
You know, because I know thatthe enemy attacks everybody, but
I think he I think he attackssome people a little extra and
it usually has to do just frommy observation, I don't really

(01:09:49):
know.
I think biblically there'sprecedent, but it's usually
because someone has a reallydivine purpose.
We all have a purpose, but youknow what I'm saying.
There's just some people thatthe enemy really does try to

(01:10:11):
thwart the purpose of God intheir life in a greater measure.
As you were talking, I had afew questions.
I'm going to forget them rightnow.
When did you start?
When did you tell anyone, haveyou told anyone that the reason
for that downhill spiral wasbecause somebody said that to

(01:10:31):
you?
When did you tell someone thatfor the first time?

Speaker 3 (01:10:36):
Um, I think, um.
I think sister Angela was thefirst person I told that to.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
And that was after you prayed back Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 (01:10:49):
After yeah, yeah, I don't know that I had told them.
We were really close to theCanes as I was growing.
You know my teenage years.
They came to our church when Iwas about 17 years old, to right
before I graduated high school,right after this happened, and

(01:11:11):
I was pretty close to them theentire time, you know, of course
, doing my thing.
They never stopped loving meand never stopped praying for me
and would always take time forme If I reached out.
They didn't push Um, but theyknew that I knew better and and

(01:11:32):
so they held firm with theirboundaries as well.
Um, but I?
I don't remember when I openedup about it, but I do remember
that she was the first person Iopened up to about it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:50):
Do you remember what she said, or when you started
putting the pieces together Like, wow, I really believe
something that wasn't God,believe something that wasn't
God Like?
Did you have that understandingright when you came back to
church, or did it take some timefor you to put those pieces
together?

Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
No, I think I knew while I was backslidden that
that wasn't from God.

Speaker 2 (01:12:16):
Oh, you did.

Speaker 3 (01:12:18):
Yeah, I don't think I knew as a teenager.
But you know, when I was in my20s, um, you know, mid to late
20s, I think I had figured itout.
Um, you know, god is love, godwill give you the desires of
your heart.
God's not going to put anythingin your heart, that's not of
him, if you're diligentlyseeking him.
And so I, I figured that out.

(01:12:42):
Um, while I wasn't living forhim because I didn't want to
carry it anymore, I was, youknow, tired of trying to
medicate it, tired of trying todrink it away.
I was just, I was tired and Ihad to figure it out.
And at that point, once it wastoo late and I was too far gone,

(01:13:03):
I realized, oh, I messed up,because that wasn't sound advice
, that wasn't a word, that wassomebody's opinion.

Speaker 2 (01:13:17):
And I want to just give a plug right there, because
what you just said was theBible.
When you realized that thatwasn't God, it was because you
knew what the Bible said.
God will give you the desiresof your heart when your heart is
pleasing towards him and he'snot going to put anything bad
there.
And so somewhere along the line, you read your Bible.

(01:13:41):
You knew what the Bible said,and it was the truth of God's
word that brought clarity to thelie.
So, just for anyone out therewho grew up in church, like a
lot of us, I didn't read myBible growing up in church.
I've been studying my Bible forthe last 30 years but didn't
really read it growing up inchurch.
I've been studying my Bible forthe last 30 years, but didn't

(01:14:02):
really read it growing up inchurch.
And so the word of God is theonly thing that is going to help
us discern between the true andthe false.
And, especially as we go downthese last days and the way the
world is changing and thecraziness that's going on,
knowing what the Bible saysabout who God is, about who we

(01:14:26):
are in Christ, about everythingthat the Bible says, is the only
way that we're going to knowwhen it is the enemy speaking to
us, or someone else's falseword or false testimony, or you
know a false prophet who speakssomething over you, or just
somebody that gives you a wordcurse.
It's so important to know whatthe truth is of the word of God,

(01:14:52):
so I just wanted to point thatout, because you said that,
because you knew that, andthat's so beautiful to me.

Speaker 3 (01:15:00):
Even being able to discern, you know.
You know, maybe it's notnecessarily a bad word, but
where is that coming from, youknow?
Where is that just an opinionof somebody who I think the
world of, and they may thinkvery little of me, you know?
Or is?
Is that something that you know?

(01:15:21):
I should go to my pastor?
I should go to my family, Ishould you know.
Or is?
Is that something that you know?
I should go to my pastor?
I should go to my family, Ishould you know.
And I just did it.
I had no discernment, I had nodirection.

Speaker 2 (01:15:32):
I just did it Partly, tamara.
I think it's because you werepure.
Your heart was pure towards theLord.
It was pure towards this person.
Like you, you really sort of saweverything through rose colored
lenses, like we do when we whenwe're really just trying to do
the right thing Right, and so itwould never be on your radar to

(01:15:56):
question those things, probablynot on your radar to even
question God things.
Probably not on your radar toeven question God.
But for anyone that is watchingthis if it doesn't feel right,
talk to someone about it.
Don't believe everythingsomeone says to you, no matter

(01:16:18):
what credentials they are, nomatter even me people that come
to me.
I'm a therapist.
I have credentials, but thatdoesn't mean anything if I get
it wrong, right.
So it doesn't matter who aperson is, what titles they
might have.
If it doesn't feel right, getanother opinion, even like if

(01:16:39):
it's a doctor telling you areport.
Just don't take anybody's wordfor anything.
Go to your pastor, go to yourparents, go to someone that you
know loves you, and tell them,because the enemy works in
secret and he works in thedarkness, and what he does to

(01:17:00):
people is he tries to keep itall hidden, and so when you
don't talk about it withsomebody, he gets to do his
dirty work in the dark becausenobody can pull you out.
So I just I wanted to give aplug there because, I think,
that's good.
And and again, I just you know,and and again I just you know I

(01:17:26):
hate the way that the enemyworks against, against kids,
against people whose heart isreally set on loving god and
living for god.
It is the enemy's work, it'snot nothing.
You did wrong and you probablyknow that today.

Speaker 3 (01:17:42):
Yeah, my husband and I talk about it quite a bit
because he was a backslider too,and so he has an amazing story
of God's grace and so we talkabout it and you know we joke
because we have five kids.
He has adopted Carter and thenwe had two together and then he

(01:18:03):
has his two girls, and so wejoke.
Well, if we would have married,you know, 20 years earlier,
we'd be done raising babies,because our youngest, you know I
mean they're two and four arethe two youngest and it's hard
you know, when you're in yourforties it's hard to raise
littles that little, and so youknow we always kind of joke

(01:18:25):
about that.
But we would not.
Also, we wouldn't be the peoplethat we are and come from the
experiences that we have.
You know we have a burden forhelping people through recovery
and, you know, for prodigals aswell, and so you know we have a

(01:18:48):
lot in common as far as thatgoes, and the direction that we
feel like God is taking us andGod is calling us to is really
exciting.
It's really exciting and, likeI said, it hasn't always been
easy, and you know, blendingfamilies is hard sometimes and

(01:19:11):
there are bumps in the road, butthere have been times when I
have literally taken my Bibleand stood on it and prayed and
said, god, I am standing onevery promise in this book.
I am standing on every promisein this book.
I'm standing on every word,every part of it, and help me,

(01:19:31):
help us, help, lead us, guide us, call us, direct us.
Whatever your will, make it ourwill.
And so I am so grateful for thelife I have now um you know I
was telling you before thepodcast, I don't like looking
back before god.

(01:19:53):
You know, while I was gone, youknow it.
Just that's a place I don'tvisit very often, but I think
it's a place that needs to bevisited to be told.
And my downhill spiral startedbecause I was hurt in the church

(01:20:13):
.
And that happens, it happens,and it happens more than what I
think, that we're aware of orthan what we recognize.
Yeah, so I just wanted to bereal from that perspective of it
and you know the person whohurt me.

(01:20:34):
I have no idea where they are intheir life right now.
I wish them the best of things.
I do still pray for them.
I do not harbor any resentmentor hard feelings or hurt towards
them anymore.
For a long time I did and itwas really ugly, but I just

(01:20:57):
don't.
I've learned to give it all toGod and just be grateful for
what I have.
You know, like I said, I am sograteful for the life I have now
my husband, my kids.
You know God is so so good, farbetter than what I deserve for

(01:21:18):
sure.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
Yeah, that's good.
I think when God does come anddo the healing, he does take it
all, like all the unforgivenessand the resentment and the hurt.
He just and I feel like it'sreally supernatural he just
supernaturally takes it from us,yeah, and he uses everything.

(01:21:43):
So you're right, like who youare today is a by-product of
where you've been, but I thinkwhen you, when you really hand
it over to God, he makes allthings beautiful Right.
So I'm excited that you have aburden for backsliders.
That's so exciting.

(01:22:10):
I really think that God's goingto do a work in this arena.
You know, because, maybebecause I'm talking to
backsliders, you know, I feel it, but I can see that so many of
us that were out there werereally backsliders for the wrong
reasons, never because, youknow, not always because we were
trying to leave God.
We just didn't know how to dealwith the hurt and the wounds of
life.
So I feel like God is reallydoing a work and bringing people

(01:22:31):
back.
What would you want to say tothe backslider that's out there
who might be listening, whohasn't come home, who might
struggle with the standards?
Because I do hear that a lotfrom girls, like they don't want
to come back and do all thethings.
I get it, but it's very real.

(01:22:54):
It's such a very real struggle.
Or they just don't feel readyor know, or they don't feel
worthy what would you say tothat backslider that hasn't come
home yet?

Speaker 3 (01:23:14):
To the backslider I would say you were made for more
.
Oh, I love that you were madefor more.
Even if your life isn't acomplete mess, like mine was,
you were made for more than justwalking down the street every
day and just walking throughlife.
God has a plan.
God created you with a purpose,and it's never too late to come

(01:23:39):
back.
It's never too late to comeback as far as coming back and
following standards and, thatbeing a struggle, I struggled
with that too.
Don't Just come.
Don't struggle with it.
Don't struggle with it.
No one cares Right, Right yeahreally it's such a misconception

(01:24:02):
.

Speaker 2 (01:24:02):
I think that, um, I think the enemy uses that
against us, but really no onecares.
I don't think anyone's looking.
All the self-consciousness thatwe have felt is coming from our
own internal um wrestle that wehave, but I'm so glad that you

(01:24:28):
said that.

Speaker 3 (01:24:35):
Yeah, I think, like you said, a misconception about
coming back and not having to bethe first thing you do is you
got to get your skirt back onand tease your hair up.
No, just come back and letJesus love you.
Let Jesus love you the way thathe wants to and let him lead
you into that.
Let him do his thing, becauseit's going to be far better than

(01:24:57):
anything you can do on your own.
My mom and I just had aconversation about that as well
and how, growing up in church,we always knew that that was the
thing to do.
And, coming back, I was kind ofembarrassed if I'd come in
jeans or if I'd come, however,but I really didn't have to be,

(01:25:22):
because there's not thatpressure and that weight, and
when you're coming back to God,there is no pressure.
You just come and let Him loveyou, and he's going to love you
through every step that he wantsyou to take.

Speaker 2 (01:25:40):
Yeah, yeah, because it isn't.
It isn't a heaven or hell issueand I I think that the I think
don't.
If you don't let that get inthe way, god knows how to give
you peace about all the thingsand talk to you about it.
And and I think also equallyimportant is that I think the

(01:26:06):
pastors love us way more thanprobably what we ever realized
as kids, and I think there'sprobably way more acceptance
than what we probably felt askids.
We just didn't have a way tounderstand it or look at it.
Correct, yeah, so I love that.
Okay, what would you say to theparent who has a kiddo out

(01:26:31):
there, or someone who has aspouse?
That's a backslider.
What would you say to thatperson?

Speaker 3 (01:26:39):
Well, don't be afraid to set the boundaries and set
your expectations.
Love, always love, give grace,pray.
I am a result of prayingparents.
My mom prayed for me.
She would text me all the timethat she was praying for me.

(01:27:01):
Prayer, get on your knees fastfor your kids, but don't be
afraid to set those toughboundaries.
Because that's what helped meis when my parents finally said
okay, enough is enough.
We love you, but we're going tobe hands off.
That's when I started to figurethings out on my own and

(01:27:23):
realized oh, wait, a minute.
I do need to live for God.
I do need I'm not going to becovered under my parents'
household anymore.
And so, while you're prayingfor your kids, don't be afraid
of a little bit of tough love,and I don't know if that's the
right thing to say, the rightanswer to that question.

(01:27:45):
But as a parent myself, you know, I would hope that that's the
way that I would approach mychildren if they have you know
if they, if God forbid, if theywalk away from the Lord just
with grace and love, always love.

Speaker 2 (01:28:06):
Yeah, I love that you said that, because boundaries
are very important.
I think, as Christians, it's soeasy to become codependent
because we worry about the worstcase scenario that they're
going to end up dead.
And that is something that yougo through when you have a loved
one that's not living for God.

(01:28:26):
But Lisa Turkhurst wrote a bookthat I have used many times.
I think it's so helpful foranyone out there who's listening
, who has a loved one that's notin church.
It's called Good Boundaries andGoodbyes, and what I love about
this book is it's veryChristian based and she uses the

(01:28:50):
metaphor about the Garden ofEden and how God himself set
boundaries up, that he placedthe tree of life in the center
and he also placed the tree ofknowledge of good and evil
somewhere.
We don't know where it wasplaced, but God had boundaries
in order and the book is reallyabout when you really love

(01:29:14):
someone.
Setting boundaries is such akind and gracious thing to do
and it's such a shift, becauseboundary sometimes is a dirty
word, you know, for people, butit really.
I really highly recommend thatbook, good Boundaries and
Goodbyes by Lisa Turkhurst Ifyou are struggling with someone

(01:29:36):
that you do need to set someboundaries with, because I think
it would be really helpful.
So I love that you said thatand, coming from addiction
yourself, you understand hownecessary that that is and you
can love and be kind and have aboundary all at the same time.

(01:29:57):
Yes, and prayer, of course.
Prayer is always, always.
God's always working throughprayer.
So, tamara, I know there'sprobably.
I'll go home tonight, as Ialways do after every interview,
and think, oh, I should haveasked this, I should have asked
that.
I would have loved to dugdeeper here, but I appreciate
what you shared so much and Iknow I just know it's going to

(01:30:23):
minister to people because Ithink that's it's your story,
but I think it will reallyresonate in the hearts of others
.
Um, yeah, so thank you so muchfor sharing and I hope you can
Thank you for.

Speaker 3 (01:30:40):
thank you for allowing me to share my story.
God is far too good for me tonot give him the glory.

Speaker 2 (01:30:49):
Yeah, well, and I hope you can make it back to our
church and our town and have usall worship together.
That would be so nice.
God is doing the work.
I believe he's bringing peoplehome.
I really do Not just in ourcommunity, in our church that
would be so nice.
God is doing the work.
I believe he's bringing peoplehome.
I really do Not just in ourcommunity, in our church.
I do believe he's bringingpeople home here, but I think

(01:31:12):
just in general he's reunitingpeople.
So thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:31:21):
I really enjoyed talking to you.
Thank you, I enjoyed.
I really enjoyed talking to you.
Thank you, I enjoyed it as well.

Speaker 2 (01:31:26):
Okay, I'll see you soon, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:31:28):
All right, thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:31:30):
Okay, and thank you for watching.
And again, if you guys have atestimony to share, please send
us an email, reach out.
We would love to hear from you.

Speaker 1 (01:31:54):
Good night, we are love to hear from you.
Good night, visit our websiteat kathychastaincom.
We hope you will tune in forour next episode.