Headed To Hell TRB #28 Terry Boucher

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider with your
host, kathy Chastain.
Christian-based psychotherapistand Redeemed Backslider.
This podcast is dedicated tothose who have wandered but are
ready to return to thelife-changing power of grace and
the freedom found in Jesus.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider.
I'm your host, kathy Chastain.
I'm a Christian-basedpsychotherapist and a Redeemed
Backslider With me today, fromthe state of North Dakota, is
Terry Boucher, but if you'rephonetically sounding out his
name, it's Terry Boucher.
The R is silent.

(00:43):
So I'm super excited abouthaving him today and hearing his
story and I hope it will blessand minister to you as he shares
his history.
So welcome to the podcast,terry.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me, Kathy.
It's an honor to be on here.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah.
So Terry has a book out, whichI'll talk about at the end of
the podcast too, but it's calledFrom Darkness to Light.
But he sent me this book andit's really gripping.
I haven't had a chance to readall of it, but I'm going to let

(01:24):
you just jump right in and start.
You were raised in church by asingle mom.
I know that your dad passedaway from leukemia when you were
three months old, so shortlyafter that you guys moved to
Missouri.
Take me through your early daysof being raised in church with

(01:45):
your mom and your brother.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
And well, yeah, so, like you said, after my dad
passed away, I think we movedfrom Julia, illinois to Missouri
when I was maybe two years old,grew up in church as a kid.
I mean I love church.
I was involved in Biblequizzing.
I was a little kid who alwayscouldn't wait to go pick out a
new tie, you know a littleclip-on tie to wear to church.

(02:09):
I just loved it and as theyears progressed, you know I
started hanging out with.
Well, let me back up Basically.
I mean I had a good life.
I was in all kinds of sports.
My mom took us on vacationsevery summer.
I was in all kinds of sports.
My mom took us on vacationsevery summer.
There's really no, I can't thinkof anything traumatic why my

(02:29):
life would have went astray.
I know they say then thereprobably is something to it
about having a father figure inthe home, although I never
really knew my dad.
So it wasn't something that Ithought about or longed for.
But I'm sure there is somethingthere, considering that's, you
know, a male and female to havea family.
But I just started hanging outwith the wrong people and I

(02:54):
started smoking cigarettes whenI was like around 12 years old
and then I started listening todifferent music and it started
off with just like normal, justnormal music other than church
or Christian music.
And then eventually I startedlistening with just like normal,
just normal music other thanchurch or christian music.
And then eventually I startedlistening to things like
metallica, um, and it just andyou don't realize it at the time

(03:14):
, but there is a spiritualaspect to that and it starts
changing your heart.
You have to start havingdifferent thoughts and
everything, and and graduallyand I'm sure this is from the
enemy, but gradually I startedlike having thoughts of just
like not liking it.
I didn't want to be at church,I didn't want to be there and
people would come up and want topray for me and I'd tell them

(03:35):
to get their hands off me.
It was just little thing, very,as I look back, not real out
outlandish or crazy, but there'sa gradual progressing to it and
yeah, can I interrupt reallyquick?

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yeah, because I don't want to go too fast over all
these details, because I thinkthat the details matter and I
know we always talk about thesensational piece of where a
person has been, which we willdefinitely get to, sensational
piece of where a person has been, which we will definitely get
to.
But as I was reading your book,I was very intrigued by

(04:10):
something, because I'm alwayslooking for the place where it
begins.
What is the moment wheresomething shifts?
And often it is trauma.
Something shifts and often itis trauma, but, like in your
case, it wasn't trauma.
And you describe a story in yourbook about a friend that you

(04:32):
were hanging around with thatsmoked cigarettes and he would
get them from his parents sneakthem, probably.
So I want to ask you from thislittle boy who's in Bible
quizzing, who loves church howdid it come to be that you had a

(04:53):
friend that was smokingcigarettes?
Clearly he probably didn't goto church.
How was it?
Were you in a school where youdidn't have church kids with you
?
How did you meet this kiddo?
I'm not blaming the kiddo, butI'm speaking of the influence
and availability that opened thedoor for you.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah, he was just some kid from the neighborhood.
We just rode bikes.
I don't know.
I know we were always hangingout, we'd climb through these
big pine trees, trees, and we'dclimb the pine trees.
Um, it was just one of theselike bad kids in the
neighborhood.
What, what eventually wouldturn into me.
I would be the kid that youknow parents didn't want their

(05:37):
kids hanging around with and Iguess my mom didn't know.
You know she's a single mom,yeah, you don't know she don't
know what's going on and we'rerunning around and um, and I
just remember like he alwayssmoked and I never really I
don't know, I never smoked acigarette before and I remember
him telling I remember a pack ofmarble reds and a box sitting
there.
He said don't touch these andhe went to climb I think he's

(05:58):
climbing up the tree and himtelling me don't touch them.
And I did and did.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
And that's what I want to ask, because the way you
wrote it in the book I thoughtwas awesome, because in
psychology there's two thingshere we always want to do the
thing we're told not to do.
And there's probably a part ofyou that said don't tell me what

(06:25):
to do, I'm going to do it allvery subconscious, um, but also
intrusive thoughts, because Iknow further in your story you
had a lot of thoughts but, um, Iwonder if there was an
intrusive thought that just said, hey, why don't you?
What would it be like to smokethis cigarette?
Cause you, you said you, whatwould it be like to smoke this

(06:49):
cigarette?
Because you, you said I justlooked at them, I didn't really
want to smoke cigarettes, butthere they were and I, next
thing, you knew, you just pickedit up and lit it yeah, yeah,
I'm not sure.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Um, it's been so many years I can't remember.
I know.
Now I recognize thoughts youknow that are from the enemy.
I can.
I can see them a little clearwhen I have something I realize
is not just my, it's not justyour mind saying, hey, this or
that you realize.
No, it's very subtle and youcan tell the difference between
the voice of God and what's notof God.
Back then I honestly don'tremember.

(07:18):
I'm sure.
I'm sure it was just anenticing voice of the enemy
trying to get me hung up.
And I think many times theenemy sees things in people that
we wouldn't normally see andthey try to get them very young
and get them caught up in alifestyle so they can't become

(07:39):
what they see potential.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
Right, they see, they see yeah, potential, right I?
Um, I do believe that the enemytargets kids because, a he
knows what god's going to dowith them in the future and, b
he tries to avert theirpotential and and never allow
them to see their own identity.
You know, if he, if he can getin at an early age and cause you

(08:06):
to identify with somethingother than yourself, who God
made you to be, a lot of peopleapart from God believe that
identity and then they begin toown that, and we see that in the
world today.
But I think it's alsosignificant that you were 12
years old.
I have noticed in working withchildren that eight years old

(08:28):
and 12 years old seems to be avery significant age in the
lives of boys, particularly andI asked someone about this in
Jewish culture, because I couldbe mistaken, but I think the bar
mitzvah is the age of 12.
And I think maybe for girlsit's 13.

(08:51):
But I'm pretty sure it is theage of 12 in Jewish culture.
And someone explained it to melike this it's not that you're
becoming a man at 12, but youare leaving childhood.
And when I read that about youthat you were 12 years old when

(09:12):
all of this began I thought,gosh, that is just such the work
of the enemy, um, as you'removing away from childhood to
really try to set your course inlife.
So anyways, that's just.
I'm very fascinated by all ofthose little details because I
I'm looking always like.

(09:32):
But where does this start?
Where does you know?
Cause?
You said in the book it's itwas like a slow drift.
When you're looking on theshores you can see but I'll let
you finish your story.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
Yeah, no, that, yeah, that is true, it is.
Uh, it is a slow drift, youdon't?
You don't realize that I'llactually mention it.
Like it's like how people driftaway, like they're the ocean.
When I was a little kid, I'd goto the ocean and I'd go ride the
little boogie boards and I'd,and every time I'd come in from
a, from a wave, you'd be a fewfeet down the shore, a few feet,
and if you didn't constantlykeep yourself in check and go

(10:08):
back up the shore and go backwhere your stuff was set up,
you'd find yourself drifted.
Everything looks the same, allthe umbrellas and the people,
everything seems the same.
But that whole time you've beendrifting and then you realize
you're not in the same place.
You've been drifting and you'vebeen, and then you realize
you're not in the same place.

(10:28):
Um, but man, I just uh, allthose little things, music, and
it just started like justchanging, changing my heart.
And then I remember we startedmy brother, me both, we just
started disrupting uh, sundayschool class.
We, you know, um, the devilwould just started putting
telling us that there'sdiscrepancies, there's false
things in the Bible, and westarted questioning that.
Then we started like bringingit up and disrupting Sunday

(10:50):
school class we would.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
How quick was that from from starting smoking?
How quick did that start tohappen?

Speaker 3 (10:58):
I would say, within the whole thing, to getting to
getting really vulgar about itjust a couple of years, to
getting to getting really vulgarabout it just a couple of years
, um, not so like, if you wantto look at the broad sense of
like how, how, because we it gotto where we would print out
like raylon manson lyrics andpantera lyrics, like really
vulgar songs.
I mean stick it in scienceschool teachers mailbox at
church they all had oh wow no wewould.

(11:19):
Just, we were just turned intoevil little kids and uh, so it
was a quickly for a few years,compared to being a Bible
quizzer and loving to go tochurch.
And then I don't know if you'refamiliar with it, but the movie
I remember watching.
Well, at first I listened to aMarilyn Manson music video on

(11:44):
the MTV Music Awards and I'lltell you there's spiritual stuff
, I guess, attached to it,because it just took me Like
there's something about theanger and something about it
that I just I liked, I justplayed it.
It just pulled me in.
I played it over and over.
I mean I must have listened toit 40 or 50 times.
I had it on the VHS, I recordedit and I played it over and

(12:05):
over.
I mean I must have listened toit 40, 50 times I had on the vhs
I recorded, just play over andover, and it drew me in.
And then I began watchingdifferent movies and one was the
craft with others like the.
I don't know if you've heard ofthat I've heard of it.
I never watched it there's abunch of um girl high school
girls that already startedgetting into witchcraft and they
literally started prayingpraying to the devil and

(12:29):
different spirits and invokingthem.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
And in the movie it shows.

Speaker 3 (12:34):
in the movie Yep, and I took everything that they did
in that movie, the craft and I.
I went out to my littleclubhouse in the backyard I
painted up a pentagram, thecandles, and I prayed to the
devil.
Well, I mean, I literallyprayed to the devil and, just
like you'd ask god to come intoyour heart, um, I invited the
devil to come into my life anddo with me as he will, you know,

(12:57):
and I wanted power, like I.
I knew god was real and I knewthe devil was real and I, I
think at that time I was justbeginning to get a lot of hate
towards some people at schooland I just wanted I mean, I was
naive to think I'd just getpower and do whatever I wanted,
but I wanted this power and todo stuff.
And then that led into westarted messing around with the

(13:18):
Ouija board and then we startedmessing around with voodoo dolls
and, like I wanted it, I turnedvery evil.
You know I was making voodoodolls and trying to harm people,
like seriously harm people.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
Where do you think, have you given much thought to
where all of that anger wascoming from with you?
Because I mean, I understandthe influence of music and all
of that, but I think somethinghad to already exist in you,

(13:56):
some sort of pain that thatmusic just could trigger.
And I could be wrong about that.
But, do you know what it wasbringing out in you, where that
anger was coming from?

Speaker 3 (14:10):
no, originally I remember listening to metallica
and it would just make me juststart imagining like fighting,
like it would just.
I remember just listening tothese songs so high it was
something I never listened to sohigh, fast paced, that I just
started imagining like beatingpeople up.
You know when I was listeningto it.
But I know with the MarilynManson around that time I had
been running track in gradeschool and in junior high and I

(14:37):
had beaten the junior varsityrecord in pole vault and I'd
beaten the senior record as aninth grader and I just had to
go to a senior meet and I wouldbreak the record there and they
pulled me off the school bus.
I remember they said I had totake a drug test and they caused
me not to be able to break thatrecord and then they kicked me
out off the track thing and fromthere I started getting really

(15:01):
angry with the school becausethey took the one thing I was
good at.
There I started getting reallyangry with the school because
they took the one thing I wasgood at, um, and then I think
that that's along somewherealong there.
I mean, I'm sure that maybethere's some underlying stuff I
didn't notice, but I know someof that stuff.
I began being mad at the school,you know, like, yeah, and I the
way I dress, so I was dressingdifferent, you know.
So then you have people, um,you're dressing like a freak

(15:24):
they want to call or a gothic orsomething People were.
You know, I was constantly backthen you really couldn't wear
stuff.
But now you can wear whateveryou want.
But back then in those daysthey would want you to turn your
shirt inside out, kick you outof school.
It was very serious.
So I was always under scrutinyfrom the types of shirts I would
wear, because I had some, youknow, some of these Marilyn

(15:44):
Manson shirts weren't very nice,so I guess, and then all that
stuff, when they tell me not todo something, the devil would
just take that and twist it andjust, I guess whisper lies in my
mind to where I just developedhate.
But that hate was so, so so far, you know, like the thoughts I

(16:05):
had.
I mean, I began to have thoughtsof like, uh, killing people um,
you know, like I'm notexaggerating, and um, oh and uh,
around that time I had uh, wentto um, so combine, combine,
just shooting had just happenedliterally that this week, and I

(16:26):
went to go get some marijuanafrom somebody at the movie
theater and I didn't look at itbecause there's people all
around.
So I bought it and come to findout it was oregano.
And then I confronted theperson the next Monday up
against a locker and there'speople everywhere and I told him
I said you're dead.
I lost it on him, which I meantI was just going to really

(16:46):
severely beat him, but combine,shooting just happened and um, I
was going to run track that dayout of town.
I had a big duffel bag with me.
Next, you know these people aremaking all kinds of lies and
rumors up that I was going toshoot everybody in school right
and everyone's so sensitive toit.
After, after what had happened,yeah, yeah, yeah parents won't

(17:07):
let their kids go to school umyeah plus I was kicked out and
then it just all I, just I.
There were so many differentthings.
I guess the way things I did,the way I dressed and what I
listened to, that it, um, itjust fueled my anger towards
everybody.
I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
And yeah, you know, I know that intrusive thoughts
have a lot of power and the seedgets planted by the enemy, you
know.
So that's definitely one waythat could incite all of that.
Loneliness is another, you know.
But I have had kids and mostlythey're boys, and what I see is
that all of that turns to eitherself-harm and suicidal ideology

(17:54):
or homicidal ideology.
And so you can see, like,usually if a kiddo is depressed,
it's going to be suicidalideology.
If a kiddo is angry and lookingfor a way to feel better, it's
homicidal.
And it's a bit scary how commonthat that really is.

(18:19):
And so, if I'm hearing youright, you're saying I didn't
really identify any of theemotions that I was feeling.
I just, I just knew that I wasangry and aggressive and wanting
more of all of that.

Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah, yeah, I enjoyed .
It's the craziest thing Like Ienjoyed that feeling.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Well, power is exhilarating and intoxicating,
yeah.
What how did you from listeningto metallica marilyn manson.
So so the craft is?
Is the thing that kind ofplanted that seed?
About witchcraft?
Had you heard about it before?

(19:01):
Do you know about it before?
Was it simply just watching themovie?
I'm sure I'd heard aboutwitchcraft had you heard about
it before.
Do you know about it before?
Was it simply just watching themovie?

Speaker 3 (19:07):
I'm sure I'd heard about witchcraft before in
church and different stuff likethat, but I never really like
knew that much about until Iwatch this movie, the crap that
like glamorize.
They glamorize these girls whoare who, who are being picked on
or harassed at school for theway they dress, the way they the
stuff they dress, the way theythe stuff they listen to and
they they sit here and theyinvoke demons and spirits and

(19:29):
then they have powers and theystart causing harm to all these
people who have caused.
You know, give them grief pickedon them or whatever Right, and
I, literally, I took everythingthat they said to heart and I, I
was just going to try that, trythat, you know, and I,
literally, I, I prayed to the,invited him in, like even though

(19:50):
I didn't see no differenceright that moment.
Now I look back and see thingsstarting, starting to change.
That you know, it's not nothingto mess around with right, yeah
, okay.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
So what happens after that?

Speaker 3 (20:30):
no-transcript graduated.
I didn't even need to pass asingle class my senior year.
But, um, I just started doingdrugs really heavily, hanging
out with much older people, verylike in their 30s and 40s,
doing very hard drugs, smoking,crack, drinking.

(20:52):
Partying on the weekend duringschool too, um, going out.
We robbed places, bash people'smailboxes.
There's times we actually wentto the principal's house in the
middle and the night, pounded onhis door and just cussed him
out right to his face and um,just devious things that
eventually it just led to morethings.
The first time on my senior year, um, the very first day of my

(21:14):
senior year, I was arrested.
We had stolen a dirt bike and Ihad in pieces at my mom's house
and got told on for the rewardmoney.
They came and I was arrested atthe lunch table my first day of
senior year and that's whatstarted.
Um started my extensiveincarceration and from there I

(21:37):
mean my whole high school likeit was just filled with.
I mean it's just a blur filledwith hard drugs, alcohol
stealing, meth labs, crazy stuff.
I was locked up in juvenile.
I went off with my mom, rippedthe phone out of the wall and
they took me to juvenile, thento a psych ward as a teenager.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
Did they diagnose you then at the psych ward?

Speaker 3 (22:03):
I don't think so.
I think they.
I was there for about a weekand they eventually they.
Just let me go back to my mom.
And when I was in school I gotkicked out for all the other
stuff.
They sent me to a place andthey gave me all these inkblot
tests, you know, and I had topass all this stuff.
And they asked me what I seeand I'm like you don't really

(22:23):
see anything and I'm going topass all this stuff.
And they ask me what I see, andI'm like you don't really see
anything.
I see little pictures inside ofthem, but you don't really see
like any real pictures in theseinkblots.
But I guess they didn'tdiagnose me.
I'm sure, like nowadays, Iwould have been diagnosed with
something but I was neverdiagnosed with anything.
And then I did graduate, butthat last year I was never at

(22:45):
school.
They wanted me not to walkbecause I just didn't come to
school.
I continued getting in trouble,continued breaking my probation
and having violations.
Then I became very addictedright out of high school, very
addicted to crack.
I was about 18 years old.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
And crack is meth.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
But it's cocaine.
Cocaine mixed with baking,baking soda oh, that's crack
okay yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
Okay, because I always get the two confused
methamphetamines and crackbecause sometimes people
interchange them.

Speaker 3 (23:24):
Yeah, it's just cocaine mixed with baking soda.
You heat it up and cool it down, and then it turns into a crack
rock.
Okay.
And I got my girlfriend at thetime my high school girlfriend.
We'd been together for likethree, three and a half years
got her addicted to crack andthen, next thing, you know, you

(23:46):
know, um, she's just.
I eventually wanted to get outof it.
I eventually wanted to stopsmoking crack and then she
didn't and I gave her theultimatum and she chose, chose
the crack, um chose us to shackup with the 44 year old crack
dealer.
She's like 18 19.
So that was the end of ourrelationship.
I got sent to rehab.

(24:06):
I was lying to my PO coming inthere telling her I had bugs and
out of my mind, I don't haveall these bugs.
So she would just tell me toget out of there now.
And it worked for the timebeing.
And I never did follow up withany medical exams, and then
somebody told on me for that too.
So I was shipped up to rehaband then I got out of there and

(24:37):
then I was arrested it was thislong years of uh me trying to
play the system that you can'tplay.
You know, I think you can passdrug tests and do all this while
you can, yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
So you mentioned some of the hallucinations that you
had.
So you're listening to thismusic, you start witchcraft, you
get into drug addiction alittle bit heavier.
You mentioned doing LSD.
Was that mixed in the drugs youwere doing or did you purposely

(25:10):
choose to do LSD?
Because I know sometimes thingsare laced.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
Yeah, no, I chose.
I chose to do LSD and Iactually, as you as well, Were
you looking for the trip of itor were you?

Speaker 2 (25:27):
were you doing it in conjunction with the witchcraft?
Were you like, like, do youknow?
Any of you may not have eventhought about those things.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
I'm just curious no, no, I just did it.
Just I want to get high.
I enjoyed.
I enjoyed the hallucinogens, umlike the meth, where I'd stay
up for days and then sometimesweeks, and the hallucinations
that you'd have I enjoyed.
We'd go out wander the woods,which I would.
I don't know why you'd want todo that, because sometimes
you're so paranoid.

(25:57):
My brother and me would be highon meth and we'd want to go
smoke a cigarette outside, butyou're so paranoid somebody's
going gonna run up from the sideof the house that we both sit
facing the other way, butthere's nothing there.
You know, you hear peoplewhisper terry, terry, like
whispering your name, um to comeout into the dark, um, but I

(26:18):
enjoyed that go ahead ohI just said I enjoyed that and
as as my drug.
Later, years later I beganstaying up for weeks on in on
meth and then taking LSD.
So I would just be that much,that much more out of my mind.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
Now that you, now that you're living for God and
fully delivered, when you lookback at hearing your voice,
hearing your name be whispered,what do you think that was?
What do you think about that?

Speaker 3 (26:51):
I think it was the enemy trying to get you to just
lose your mind, because I knowlike one of the times I was out
in my clubhouse just gettinghigh.
But another time I rememberhearing my name whispered and I
could have swore it was a longhallway and I was in the living
room.
I could have swore I sawsomebody like a shadow, like
walk past and then go into the,into, uh, the bathroom, and I

(27:12):
grabbed a knife and I beganwalking through the house, even
though I didn't see it going inany rooms before that.
I began checking room by roomwith a knife and I was ready to
just start stabbing somebody andthere was nothing there.
You know, just completely outof my mind and you know they
could.
That could happen.
You could be out in public andattack somebody.
I mean, I've seen people justbe talking to him.

(27:36):
They just disintegrate intonothing.
All blow dust, blow off in thewind, just completely.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
So you were talking to when that experience happened
?
Were you having a conversation?
So that would have been animaginary, an imaginary person,
right?
But it was someone that youknew at the time because you
called him by by his name dusty.

Speaker 3 (27:59):
Yeah, well, in the book I don't know what I call
them, but we were sitting theresmoking meth in some shady dope
house in the middle of thistrailer park and it was really
good, really, really, reallygood meth, and it wasn't enough
for days.
We'd just been smoking it for afew hours and I was sitting
there talking to him and he justlike just sitting there, and

(28:22):
then I began like asking him youknow, hey, where'd you go?
Man, like not, like I should bethinking that's not real, but
I'm so high I'm thinking, well,where'd you just go in?
All right, you know, I just sawhim just saying right, I'm
still trying to figure out wherehe's at Just completely.

(28:48):
Do you look back at, think anyof that was demonic or do you
think it was just hallucination?
I think a mixture of both.
Um, something I think is justhallucination, but I do believe
it opens you up to spirits,because a lot of things I would
see people call shadow people.
You see, I believe you'reseeing, um, you're able to see
things that other people can'tsee.
And I've even had and I don'tknow if I wrote about it or not,
but I've had it where I couldfeel, especially after I went to

(29:10):
church, but I could feel thesespirits on me.
I was high on meth and then myex-girlfriend's dog.
It would just keep growling andbarking at me, acting
completely out of character, andit would be looking up at me,
but it wasn't looking at me.
It'd be looking over myshoulder against the wall, and
there's nothing there.
I'd be at the top of the steps.
It wouldn't let me come downthe steps that it's seeing

(29:33):
something that it can see that Ican't see.
Right right, right, right.
So yeah, a mixture of both.
I think a mixture of bothmixture of both.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
I think a mixture, mixture of both.
And so where does the voodooand the witchcraft come into
play in conjunction with yourdrug use?
How deep did you get in?
I mean, it sounds like you gotinto it deep.
Um, where did that lead youlike, did you?

Speaker 3 (30:00):
hurt.
Thankfully, I don't thinkanybody was ever actually harmed
.
I think it was just, you know,a kid trying to get involved.
I think we invited stuff intoour lives doing that.
As far as I know, nobody wasactually harmed by sticking

(30:21):
pants in an adult, you knowRight.
We sure did try.
Yeah, sticking pants and adult,you know Right.
We sure did, we sure did try,yeah, but yeah, I don't know.
You know it's interesting.
I don't know if you ever seensome of the book.
Like, there's a book about whatpeople that are, um, diagnosed
as um schizophrenic and stuff,and it shows all these crazy

(30:42):
drawings of these shadow lookingthings.
Right, you ever?
Well, the funny thing is like alot of those things are what
you see on math too, yeah, andand it's almost like it's
spiritual when you're tappinginto a realm and these people,
they say they're actually seeingsomething that's there that
most people don't.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Yeah, I believe a lot of what we call mental health
disorders is spiritual.
I'm trying to do research inthis area.
I have a questionnaire that Igive people because I think that
there is so much of it that isspiritual, because the Bible

(31:24):
says we're either going to livefor God or we're going to live
for the devil.
There is really no in between.
So anything that is not of Godis going to be that, and yet we
try to put language around itbecause science now, finally,
the dsm has a section in thebook where they will deal with
paranormal.
But because paranormal stuff isnot always provable, you know,

(31:50):
other than people's livedexperience, um, science does not
recognize it, but so much of ofwhat people go through, I
believe, is spiritual in natureand, um, and I think, intrusive
thoughts, which is definitely aclinical term.
Um, and I saw it.

(32:10):
I read the, I read the diary,parts of the diary that was
posted online of the schoolshooter that just happened this
week and it's very obvious, it'svery clear he was fighting
himself and fighting histhoughts and in one hand, saying
this isn't what I want to do.
I don't want to do this.
I love my family.
I don't, you know.

(32:31):
But those seeds grow if wedon't address them.
But those seeds grow if wedon't address them.
And as Christians, if we don'tknow how to even recognize an
intrusive thought, we can'tfight it.
And for you, I just think aboutthe story of picking up the
cigarettes.
It was such an impulsive act.
But we know in the therapeuticworld.

(32:53):
But we know in the therapeuticworld that behavior is always a
function out of impulses, afunction out of believed thought
processes or belief system.
Sometimes it can be instinctive, like rebellion.
So I'm always very intriguedwith all of that stuff because I

(33:14):
feel like the more we know asChristians, the better we're
able to help others fightagainst stuff, and especially as
innocent kids in our youthdepartments across America that
have little kiddos growing up inhomes where I cannot tell you
the number of parents who watchscary movies and watch them with

(33:34):
their children.
I cannot tell you the number ofparents who watch scary movies
and watch them with theirchildren Like it's devastating
because they don't think there'sanything wrong, but I a
thousand percent believe it'sopening doors into the demonic
realm.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
Well, now that you mention that, I completely I
don't know how I forgot about it, but my cousin used to come
down from Virginia everyChristmas and my grandpa's house
right across the road, and wewere like five years old and
he'd bring movies over like theTexas Chainsaw Massacre, and on
Christmas, me and my cousin,little kids, we were watching

(34:07):
Texas Chainsaw Massacre, freddyKruger, all these things.
And I look back and I rememberI would have dreams, these
dreams, dreams, and I would bewalking down the hallway to go
to the bathroom and I feel likeI'm getting pulled under down
below the floor and they wererepetitive, the same dream over
and over.
But, um, I forgot about that.
Like those movies, like whatyou said, I believe they do,

(34:29):
they do open a door and Ibelieve that they open a door
into your house.
and then if people knew whatthey were doing like, if they
knew what they watched, if thata demon could be walking up and
down their hallway, would theystill watch it because I had
some insurance agents and Inever went out on halloween or
anything, but I was really closewith my insurance agent, so

(34:50):
when she'd bring her daughterover on halloween and I would
give her candy, I didn't go outtrick-or-treating or anything.
Anyways, one day her and hersister came over and they all
had witch outfits on and I letthem in the house and I gave
them some candy and after that,for about a month long, I began
being woken up, being choked.
I woke up, being able tobreathe, feeling like I'm

(35:12):
getting choked.
I'd jump out of bed, I'm goingto panic, and I couldn't figure
out what was going on.
I literally couldn't breathe.
And then one day God revealedit to me what it was.
That was like, as when peopleput on Christ and put on stuff
like that, you allow them, youput that on, and whenever I
invited, them to the house.

(35:33):
They were in my house, Like thespirit of what they had was in
my house and it was choking meevery night.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yeah, I followed a guy named John Ramirez for a
while who was a high priest inthe satanic world and got
radically delivered and savedand now he preaches the gospel.
But he has a lot to say aboutcostumes and what we wear at
Halloween, because you do reallytake on an identity, whether

(36:04):
people intend to or not.
Some people can dress up.
I dressed up as a kid forHalloween because we weren't
raised that there was anythingwrong with that, but we were
never also allowed to doanything evil.
It was a Pentecostal girlopportunity to wear makeup

(36:25):
Because we couldn't wear any ofthat at church.
So I got to be a cheerleaderbecause I was never allowed to
be that in real life, allowed tobe that in real life, you know.
But I really believe that andpeople that are sensitive in
their nature, in theirpersonality, when they're
sensitive or if they'resensitive to the Spirit of God

(36:46):
because God has a calling onthem, are going to feel that way
more than a person who's notreally wired that way or God had
not instilled certain gifts inthem.
So it sounds like from an earlyage you were already very
spiritually inclined anddiscerning, even if you didn't

(37:10):
know how to understand it oridentify it.
But you know what you described,being choked.
I have those situations often.
Psychology would call it sleepparalysis.
You know that, yeah, that's theclinical name when you have a
sleep paralysis event or butpeople report being attacked in

(37:30):
their sleep.
I've had people have scratchesor bruises, I've you know, crazy
stuff, which is why I came upwith questionnaire.
I came up with because peoplebecause the spirit realm is very
, very real and people thataren't even acquainted with
church culture are havingdemonic attacks.

(37:51):
But you know, we're labeling alot of things as a psychological
issue and I think it's helpfulto have language for both,
because not everybody's going towant to address the spiritual
piece.
It doesn't mean someone's bad.
I always, usually think thedevil's working that hard

(38:13):
against somebody.
It's generally because god hasa plan for them, which god has a
plan for everybody.
But I tend to look at thingsfrom that lens of you know, what
is god really wanting to do ina life of a person?
Yeah, so you've had a ton, aton of experiences spiritual,

(38:35):
you know, aside from justcriminal and other experiences.
Yeah.
So continue.
Sorry, I just oh no, that wasgood I interrupt a lot because I
just have so many questionsabout all of those details.
I think they matter.

Speaker 3 (38:54):
They do.
I'm glad you brought it upbecause I wouldn't even thought
about that, but they do.
I completely forgot about whatI was watching as my mom didn't
know it that, um, and I stillcontinue to go to bible quizzing
years later like it, but it'ssomewhere.
I'm sure it did plan, because Iwas always having crazy dreams
and and sleepwalking, trying toget out of the house, and these

(39:15):
dreams of witches and just crazystuff.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
Before you got into drugs.

Speaker 3 (39:23):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I think because of the movies I
was watching.
That's his way entertainment.
He's going to put stuff onmovies so he can get people.
I've had God show me in dreamsdifferent things like it's.
That's a way they uh, he gets,he gets people yeah, yeah I

(39:44):
don't know.
Um, yeah, so my, my life wasjust very, very bad and I um
continued the heavy drug use.
Uh, I was in fights all thetime, and my brother and me we
were in fights, like one time wekicked in a house to get back
at some people.
Um, uh, one had his faceseverely beat in one one of them

(40:05):
, he was stabbed multiple timesin the face.
My brother was stabbed in.
His chest was long, waspunctured.
I had cuts all over me.
Um, it was just like where weliterally kick in a door, kick
somebody's door in to try tokill them.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
And Terry, was any of that gang related?
Were there gangs in the area?

Speaker 3 (40:24):
Because here there's so many gangs there's gangs and
one of the people we stole methlab from we sold all the stuff
to Somebody was in the Cripsgang.
This was like my sophomore yearof high school.
We sold it to him.
So the gangs we weren'tinvolved in any of that, but we
were a lot of violence, fightswith bats, hockey sticks, knives

(40:46):
, like you name it.
My life was just out of control.
There was one time I mean,there was a car accident.
We had what I should have beendead in.
One of of my friends diedmultiple different car accidents
.
We were in um, but it was justlife, life of crime, in and out,
in and out of um, in and out ofjail, um.

(41:06):
There was a time where I waswalking out.
I went in there to getpseudophagin pills to make meth
and I walked out of lawgreensand, just like out of a movie,
all of a sudden SWAT team riflessurrounded me and put me on the
hood of a car.
Like I had no idea.
No idea all that was coming, um.

(41:27):
So then they charged me withpossession of precursor drug
with intent to manufacture meth,and none of this stuff, like it
, didn't stop me.
I thought I was going to stop.
I took probation eventually.
And then I was on probationdoing all kinds of designer
drugs.
At one point I was out in atent.
My po came to my house lookingto do a home visit.
I was out sleeping in the frontyard in a tent.

(41:48):
This designer drug called blissall over mirrors, lines spread
out, be like if she would havecame in there I I would have
been hit.
No slowing down.
I remember searching forsomebody who was cooking meth at
my cousin's house.
I was searching for him.
I was walking through thedrinking tequila and walking

(42:10):
through the weeds, trying totrack him so I could stab him
while I'm on probation.
Just out of control I beganshooting.
Go ahead.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
No, go ahead.

Speaker 3 (42:21):
I was just going to say.
I began shooting up dope.
In between all that time, too,I began sticking a needle in my
arm too Not too long after that,and that just became a whole
other habit.
You could buy needles.
My friend was a diabetic, sothen I began shooting meth up.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
So it sounds to me like once you discover drugs,
you kind of stayed loadedperpetually.

Speaker 3 (42:50):
Oh yeah, I was never sober Like.
I remember one lady down theroad when she finally, when I
finally got back into church,like she was like I haven't seen
you since I've known you over10 never sober.
I remember one lady down theroad when I finally got back
into church.
She was like I haven't seen yousince I've known you over 10
years.
Sober I was never.
I was always under theinfluence of something, at least
something that's notexaggeration.
I literally was always at leastdrinking or weeding, but

(43:11):
usually I was on a mixture ofall kinds, all kinds of
different things did you everhave moments during that time of
realization or moments?

Speaker 2 (43:25):
did you ever feel the Lord convicting you, or the or
dealing with you?
Or were there ever times thatyou thought to yourself man,
what am I doing?
Or wow, look at all the crazy.
Like any of those moments?

Speaker 3 (43:41):
Yeah, I mean, originally I had the thoughts
like I knew I was going to go tohell, like I was like, well,
I'm going to go to hell, and Iknew it, but it didn't bother me
, I didn't think about it.
I mean, I have pictures where Idrew signs.
I'm just drinking out of mymind, flipping the camera off
and I got a sign with the upseton cross that says I'm already
dead.
Just, I'm already dead.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
There's no hope, did you?
Because I've asked other peoplethis question Because you
thought you were going to hell.
Do you think that gave you alicense to just do whatever you
wanted, like there was no?
There's no deterrent after that.
If that's the worst, that'sgoing to happen, right?

Speaker 3 (44:21):
yeah, yeah, I think it didn't matter.
Like there's no conviction tothink, gosh, that'd be horrible.
Like there's none of thosethoughts, like that'd be
horrible to burn forever.
None of that, just like youaccept, I'm going to go hell,
whatever, and that's sad.
It wasn't until, like, we gotin this rat bad car wreck, um,
and my friend he was driving, hedied.
I should have been dead.
For some weird reason, I neverwore my seat belt, especially

(44:43):
having been on the influence,but that day I had it on.
We went off the road, hit likea concrete tunnel that goes onto
the road, like a wall justsmashed.
It flipped over, um, he died.
He died there on the scene.
And, uh, we actually hit sohard the seatbelt I was wearing
a seatbelt but it snapped, butit held me long enough to keep
me from going through thewindshield.

(45:04):
It snapped, uh, broke a bunchof my ribs, punching my lungs
and I would eventually just stopbreathing.
I collapsed on the side of thehighway and the helicopters came
and they, they revived me.
Um, but remember, after thattime, that was the first time I
thought man, I have to be alivefor some reason.
How?

Speaker 2 (45:23):
old were you.

Speaker 3 (45:25):
I would have been probably about 2003.
So I was just out of highschool, it was 2002, so probably
like 19.
And I had those thoughts but itstill didn't Like.
I thought, man, I must be likethere's a change in my thought
pattern, a little bit thinking I, I was saved, spared, but it
didn't stop me because I wouldstill go on to, to shooting up

(45:48):
meth and continuing the same,the same lifestyle.
All this other stuff that Ijust described to you happened
after that.
You know the the meth, the methlab stuff, the shooting up all
kinds of fights, kickingpeople's doors in.
I was running around St Louissmoking crack Parts of St Louis
I shouldn't be at being white,they told me.

(46:10):
One of them thought I was a copone time because they said
there's no way you'd be out herein the middle of the night if
you weren't a police officer andthere's times when I thought
they were going to kill one ofmy friends, take him behind the
aisle.
They wouldn't let me go to goget the dope, and just so many
different things.
I should have been.
People get killed in St Louisall the time over Just crazy.

(46:30):
And I went to my PO.
I'd known my PO one time.
After I had to see my PO thenext morning I stayed up all
night drinking, smoking crack inSt Louis and went to my PO or
went to rehab to do anoutpatient class which they I
reeked of booze, and theywouldn't let me even leave until
I could blow under a 0.08.
So, just like a fast track, Istill never you know.

(46:52):
And and throughout all that,those I never you know, and
throughout all those years, whenI got back in church to speak
about a testimony, I startedgoing to my police paperwork and
I counted up all the times Iturned myself in willfully to do
time, not against my own will,getting arrested, but I turned
myself in to do time close to 70times, like just to turn myself

(47:16):
in to do different amounts oftime.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
I'm laughing because I'm thinking okay, if you're
turning yourself in, that is awhole lot of arrests.

Speaker 3 (47:27):
Yeah, it is because that's just me turning myself in
.
Right, right, right yeah that'swhen I have the paperwork, like
the dates he turned himself at9 am or this time or whatever.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
What a miraculous God , because I don't even know the
end of your story, but 70 timesis a lot.
And I know that because Ihelped somebody write a letter
to get some of their stuffexpunged and that person had 35
arrests and many were forfailure to appears and stuff.

(48:03):
And I thought at that time boy,that is a lot, that's a lot of
arrests.
So yours was double and that'sjust crazy.

Speaker 3 (48:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
Considering people can go their whole life and
never be arrested.
You know so not to.
I hope that doesn't make youfeel bad, I know you're on the
other side of that, you know.
So when did you, what made youfinally go to prison, how old
were you and what was thecatalyst that sent you to prison

(48:34):
?

Speaker 3 (48:34):
Well, well, I actually never made it to prison
in my own sick way.
I was like I couldn't wait toget there.
It was like almost like anachievement.
Um, I should have been inprison multiple times.
This last time I was facing umlife in prison, um, I was with
my girlfriend and I took some ofher her xanax pills and I
wouldn't give them back to heranyways, I can't went to get her

(48:54):
weed and I came back and sheflipped out on me.
This is one of those situationswhere there wasn't a mark on
her.
Literally, it's in the report.
I had a marker scratched on her.
I came back and she split myhead open with a plate because I
wouldn't give her her pills.
Then she proceeded to take abat to me and I just wanted to
get my stuff, so I walked out ofthere anyway, she, she called

(49:15):
the police on me and, um, Iremember popping a bunch of
xanax as I was walking down theroad and I remember the last
thing I was remember, uh, theyarrested me and I got real mad
because I hadn't done anything.
And then I remember spitting atthe cop through the thing,
cussing a sergeant out in thecelly part of jail and then I
and I packed and I blacked outthen.
And then I woke up to themreading me my charges and I.

(49:37):
They had charged me withfelonious restraint, um,
unlawful use of a weapon, firstdegree assault and armed
criminal action, and uh, thearmed criminal action alone was
three years to life.
The other ones, like 10 to 15,uh, 7 to 15, like all, like if I
were to get convicted I'd befacing life.

(49:58):
And then it was that time, likeman, I'm not getting out.
You know, they asked me who Iwanted to.
I said I wanted to sign myproperty over to my mom.
They said, no, you'll get whenyou get out.
And I said I'm not getting out.
So this is my like, this is mylife, the rest of my life, you
know, I'm not ever getting out.
And um, I was going throughhorrible withdrawals.
It took me back to populationfor a couple weeks.

(50:18):
I was shaking, like alcoholwithdrawals, drug withdrawals.
I couldn't even eat, like I wastrying to eat my food and I was
just shaked where it'd fall offthe before I get it to my mouth
.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
They didn't give you a doctor for detox medical detox
no, they don't care wow no.

Speaker 3 (50:33):
No nothing, nothing.
I felt like death.
I felt miserable.
I'm like I'm literally I'mnever going to see the light of
day again.
And then that's whenever Ievery other time I went to jail,
I never wasn't a Bible thumper.
I didn't pick the Bible becauseI knew I'd be back, it was just
wind.
But this time I was like I'msick of it, god you know.

(50:56):
But this time I was like I'msick of a, god you know.
I was like I just can't, um, Ican't do it no more, you know,
uh so you believed he stillloved you.
Oh, yeah, yeah, somewhere, yeahyeah, and I wanted, um, I, I
wanted him to uh take the pain.
I said I don't care, I want tobe changed.
I said I don't care if I neverget out of prison.
I, uh, I just wanted to changeman.

(51:18):
I don't want to live like this,no more.
And then the next morning Iwoke up and I just had peace.
Um, I just had peace like Ican't even explain it and, uh, I
, I was there for about fourmonths and I, they finally got
my um ex-girlfriend on the standand I had a $50,000 cash bond

(51:40):
and it went from 50,000 cash to$500 after she got up on the
stand.
And they found out all these,but they still didn't want to.
They didn't want to just, theydidn't want to just drop the
charges.
They knew like they didn't wantto just drop the charges.
They knew that, but I theydidn't just drop the charge, but
they knew that.
So I got out on bond and Iactually forgot something.
Well, I want to backtrack realquick because it is important.

(52:01):
We were on drugs Come back tothat before that and my brother
and me were smoking crackcocaine and we got into it.
He come walking across thefloor in the living room and the
lights were kind of dim.
My mom was asleep on the couchfor some reason, and in the
living room the lights were kindof dim.
My mom was asleep on the couchfor some reason.
My friend was over there and Iwas laying on the floor.
He was all belligerent and hestepped on me and finally I got

(52:23):
sick of it the way he waswalking around and I got up and
I just punched him.

Speaker 2 (52:27):
Your brother.

Speaker 3 (52:31):
Yeah, punched him and knocked him into the kitchen
and then right around the corneris one of those blocks with
knives and he just pulled out an8 1⁄2-inch butcher knife and
then come at me and just startedstabbing me.
About 14 times.
He stabbed me.
I got about six or seven of myarm, a lot of defensive wounds
all up and down, probably by myheart here, by my lungs, my back
, my head.
He just started stabbing melike he was throwing punches and

(52:59):
then somehow I was able to gethim down on the ground, get on
top of him to get the knife.
And then it was dim in there.
My mom thought it was him on topof me and then she picked up a
fireplace poker and then startedbeating me in the head with the
fireplace poker and, uh,eventually I was able to get the
knife and get out of there.
And then she I said we got toget to the hospital and she
grabbed a bunch of towels.

(53:19):
But when she got out there tothe car, like I couldn't tell
where I was stabbed.
I mean it just looked like themovie Carrie, just covered in
blood and I was getting weak,starting to slide down, starting
to slide down her car, you know.
So we ended up making it to thehospital in town, about six
miles away, and they airliftedme to St Louis University SLU

(53:43):
Hospital and that night I neverwent to bed.
I'd been smoking crack anddrinking.
They took care of me, what theywere supposed to do surgery.
I have nerve damage in my leftarm because my whole muscle was
cut in half.
Uh, they sent me out the nextmorning.
The next morning I left hadhuge bottles of prescription
pills.
I started snorting them, eatingthem, got more beer and I was

(54:06):
just walking around theneighborhood partying like I
never went to bed.
it never slowed me down and Ijust about died being stabbed,
and and anyways, that was his,do you?

Speaker 2 (54:17):
think you had a death wish, Terry.
I didn't care.

Speaker 3 (54:21):
There were some times I just didn't care.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It didn't matter, but luckilyGod's merciful God did yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
Yeah, he cared Because I think when you already
believe you're going to go tohell, I mean, what is there to
care about?
And I think we've talked aboutit on the podcast before people
that are raised in church, whenthey backslide, and especially
if you get into any kind ofdevil worship stuff, you believe

(54:52):
I've already done the worstthat I can do and there's not
going to be any hope.
So there's a tendency to justdo as much as you can.
Yeah.
But it is so wonderful to lookback on a life and see that God
did care in all the places thatwe did not, and he never does

(55:17):
really leave us ever, and Ithink your story is such a
wonderful example of that.
So you're looking at fourmonths and you just told the
Lord you were tired of it.
Well, I was not.
I mean you're looking at a year.

Speaker 3 (55:33):
Yeah, I was there total before I got out on bond
four months.
But like a couple weeks into itI told God I was tired of it
and he gave me that piece likethe passive understanding.
I remember going to the rec Imean it's not outside, it's in
another little concrete room butrunning in circles, little
circles.
I could, and I was just happy.
I was like man.
I wish she could see me now.
I Like man.
I wish she could see me nowLike I don't even care, Like I'm

(55:54):
at peace.
And he changed me.
Then I got out on bond.
I was out for like two or threehours I ate breakfast with my
mom and they issued a probationand parole hall on me and I went
to my PO.
They locked me right back up.
I was in the same cell by noon.
But then a few weeks later Idid get back out for good and I
started going to church with mymom and it was interesting.

(56:18):
I got put on house arrest, butit was interesting.
They let me go to church.
But they said I need to go toanger management and substance
abuse classes and they gave me aphone number of who I needed to
call.
Well, come to find out thisperson.
They were doing these classesat the church I had started
going to and the person I neededto call was my old sunday

(56:44):
school teacher.
Wow, that I used to.
You know, harass.
Yes, it was the craziest thinglike full circle right back to
where I started as a kid and, um, like the way god orchestrated.
And then he started, he, um, he, he had I changeds.
And then come to find out thePO who, or the PO that I had now
was roommates with a prosecutorin high school, prosecuting

(57:05):
attorney in high school.
So she started telling thisprosecutor like he's not like
what you think.
I mean what it says.
You know, even though they wantto drop the charges that god
was placing people I'm giving mefavor.
And uh, on 2011, yeah, june 12,2011, I was baptized.

(57:26):
I got baptized, had my ankle.
I didn't stay in there too long,I was worried I was going to
get messed up, but I had myankle bracelet on, got baptized
and I got the holy ghost thatnight.
And then, um, I was just atpeace facing life in prison.
But I was at peace and uh, butthen I ended up there's some
lady or girl started going theseclasses too, at church.

(57:48):
So I I liked her.
We started dating and then wewanted to get married.
My pastor said I should waitand thought I knew everything.
I didn't listen to counsel.
So, long story short, we gotmarried, but she hadn't.
I'd given my cigarettes up theday I got baptized.
I said I'm not going to needthese, no more.
I threw them out the window onthe way to church, stopped
smoking, didn't have no problem,like it was just gone.

(58:10):
And she still had a problem withsmoking and we just didn't get
along.
We should have never gottenmarried.
And then I ended up smokingbecause she had them and then
eventually she would take offand go out of state and just
leave for months at a time.
I had no idea where she's at.
I'm still waiting to go tocourt.
I remember she was supposed tobe my wife in a Christmas play

(58:35):
and I had no idea where she's at.
I had somebody else play mywife in the Christmas play at
church while I had no idea whereshe's at, so that really hurt.
And eventually she filed for adivorce and she left church,
filed for a divorce.
Everybody in church is crazy.
I started falling back intodrugs.

(58:59):
I went into the carpenter'sunion and my partner who helped
me do roofs there, he wassmoking meth.
I started smoking meth and thenthat led to shooting up all the
time, which eventually led tous getting pills and cooking
meth.
And I remember I left the unionafter about three, three and a

(59:20):
half years.
I was helping an old, anotherfriend with this house.
He had left the st louis areaand I was supposed to be
remodeling this house and I wasjust going there, spun out on
math.
I was, meth was cooked there.
I covered all the windows upwith black, black felt paper.
I'd go there to do work and Iwould just shoot up, hear voices
just sitting in this, turn onmy techno music, do a shot of

(59:42):
dope and just lose my mind.
And it got to where I was upfor days on end.
And then I remember I wasn't atchurch because this was like an
off and on, missing churchthing.
And then I remember I keptsaying I'll be at church next
week, I'll be at church nextweek and next week would come.
I was getting high again onSunday morning and the last time

(01:00:03):
I'd been up for like 10, 9, 10days and I was on the porch,
spun on my mind and there's apicture of me in the book with
it and I felt God, tell me to go, go, let me dead or in prison,
just go.
And uh, I was like, okay, god,I'll go, I'll go in my time.

(01:00:25):
And then I was like I gotta.
I was getting ready to take abusiness over.
I was gonna sign paperwork totake over my friend's business,
which I never would have beenable to handle.
I would have lost everything onthe meth man.
But uh, I was like, okay, I'lldo it my time and I guess god
didn't mean my time, he meantnow.
And then that night, uh, I waslike, well, I'll try to not do
any mess.
I wasn't doing any meth, I wasjust smoking weed.

(01:00:46):
I was gonna go to bed and thenI just started hearing it was
almost like a psychosis, whatpeople describe it as psychosis,
but I know it was god drivingme out of there.
And I just started hearingpounding on the walls next to me
in the living room, so hard andviolent, like I could feel it
shaking my body Pounding.

(01:01:06):
Then I started hearingscreaming and there's no way to
describe it.
It's like how Paul says wordsdon't describe this.
It's like otherworldly, but itsounded like the best way I can
say it when it says there shallbe weeping and gnashing of teeth
, and it was like I could hearhell, like these people,
horrible, horrible screaming andI'd go out in the living room

(01:01:27):
and nothing lights out,perfectly calm, all the noise
just stopped all the screamingstopped.
I go back in my room.
That happened several times.
I was like I'm ready to lose mymind, I'm going to run out of
this house, you know.
And then it wouldn't go away.
I messaged my Sunday schoolteacher and it still kept going.

(01:01:47):
I started praying and the moreI prayed, the louder it got.
The more I prayed, the louderit got.
So I opened my Bible and I waslike man, I'm going to learn to
pray tonight.
Because I was terrified, likeI've seen a lot of crazy stuff
and I was terrified and thenoises were so loud I was like

(01:02:07):
there's no way I'm going to goto sleep and I had all these
fears, like my Sunday schoolteacher told me I could go live
up there with him, becausebefore all this week, the week
before that, I went to go visithim and I was clean and I got
off the plane within an hour,hour and a half.
I was sticking a needle in myarm after landing in St Louis
and I had all these fears likewhat am I going to do for money?

(01:02:30):
How am I going to survive?
What am I going to do?
And I got this printed out butI wrote.
So I opened my Bible randomly toDeuteronomy and this chapter.
I didn't write the chapter I'mpretty sure it was Deuteronomy
30, but I got to the verses 29through 33, so I had all these
fears.
And he's talking like to theIsraelites, about like what he

(01:02:51):
did when he brought them out ofbondage, you out of egypt.
And he says then I said untoyou, dread not, excuse me,
neither be afraid of them.
The lord, your god, which goesbefore you, he shall fight for
you according to all that he didfor you in egypt.
He starts speaking to me aboutlike he took you out of prison,
he saved your life from prison.
From all this he's reminding meall he did for you in egypt,

(01:03:12):
before your eyes, and in thewilderness, where thou has seen
how the lord, thy god, bear theeas a man, doth bear his son,
and all the way that he wentuntil you came into this place.
Yet in this thing you did notbelieve the lord, your god, who
went before you to search youout of place to pitch your tents
, and he's speaking to me about.
He's already here in fargo,he's already gonna, he's

(01:03:33):
searching it out, he's gonnatake care of, he says.
I'm fired by night to show youby what way you should go and
cloud by day.
And that's when I thought tomyself like I'm never going to
go to sleep, you know.
And so there was 13 versesremaining in that chapter and I
was like wide awake and before Iever finished the 13 verses in

(01:03:54):
that chapter, I was just put tosleep like I was just out put to
sleep.
I woke up the next morning.
It was surreal.
It was like a movie.
The lights were still on, sunshining through my window.
The only thing missing was likebirds chirping you know to be
like a movie.
But I was just sitting there,bible wrapped up in my arms.
He just put me asleep yeah andum, and then uh, then I was like

(01:04:19):
, okay, god, I'm out of here.
You know, and I, uh, everything, I.
I walked away from thatbusiness thing.
I didn't go get the bank loanat the bank.
I packed everything I couldthat I could fit my truck up in
three days.
I left, I drove here, I lefteverything, everything behind,
just ran, ran yeah, I was like Iwas scared, like and, and I got

(01:04:42):
here and, um, like I was soterrified, like it was so
traumatic, like what I heard,that I literally slept with the,
had to sleep with the lights onin the Bible in my arms for a
few weeks, like it was thattraumatic I don't know how to
describe the how traumatic itwas but it scared the daylights
out of me and I've seen a lot,of, a lot of stuff yeah um, I

(01:05:06):
think that's a gift.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
When the lord opens our eyes and ears to hear the
sounds of hell, it, you know,not Not everyone, gets that
experience, but everybody, noteverybody.
But I've heard people say I'mnot afraid to go to hell.
They have no idea what it'sgoing to be like.

(01:05:29):
They think they're tough enoughto handle it, but they really
just don't have any idea.
So, terry, I think you fellinto a trap that I see people
fall into rather quickly whenthey come out of the world and
they find the Lord.
They want to find a husband ora wife, and you know I have a

(01:05:59):
lot to say about that, but Iwill reframe.
What would you say to theperson who is just getting out
of jail, coming in to try and toheal from their own wounds and
trying to get really grounded intheir walk with God?
What would you say to themabout dating?

Speaker 3 (01:06:17):
I would say they need to hold off, they need to work
on themselves.
For my instance which is mostpeople if you're not spiritually
healthy or any kind of healthy,as soon as you go through some
heartache within a relationship,and especially if you had those
tendencies from drinking ordrugs or whatever maybe you're

(01:06:40):
going to turn right back to that, like if you're not strong,
you're going to go right back toit.
So many people have arelationship issue and they go
right back to that lifestylethey live.
But even even if it's besidesthat point, you're not going
through that.
Like if you're not for sureyou've heard from god.
Like you should just wait.
Like I learned a very hardlesson.

(01:07:02):
Like I should have listened.
Like when it says you shouldlisten to counsel, you should
you know God put those peoplethere for a reason and I didn't
listen.
And you should definitely justhold off and wait and work on
yourself and make sure you'respiritually strong and really
pray about something and notjust pray about it for a month
or a few months.

(01:07:22):
Spiritually strong and reallypray about something and not
just pray about it for a monthor a few months like
wholeheartedly pray and haveother people pray.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
Because I think at this point you loved the Lord.
Your heart and intention wasnot to backslide, not to go back
into the life you came from.
You would have probably nevereven saw yourself doing that
because God had so miraculouslyalready delivered you right.

(01:07:51):
And I think that that's thething is we can become very
confident in our desire to servethe Lord that we very easily
miss where our vulnerable partsare.
And if we didn't learn newcoping mechanisms?
Because when you first fall inlove with Jesus and you first

(01:08:13):
change your life, like all yousee is all the goodness, You're
not really walking in the valleywhere you can be tested again
or where you can be vulnerableagain.
And it's so easy for the enemyto bring a love interest before
we have had experience stumblingand I think that, from a

(01:08:38):
backslider perspective, that wasoften a reason I backslid was
the desire for love and my heartwas to love the Lord and live
for God, but I didn't know howto cope with that need of
longing that existed, and Ithink God gives us those things.
Everybody has a desire for amate, but, as I see, we're

(01:09:03):
seeing quite a revival in ourchurch here and a revival with
backsliders that have come backafter 20 years, 30 years, like
major, major life changes andthat's what I think all these
single men getting out of prisonor getting off of drugs and

(01:09:24):
everybody's looking for a girland the girls are looking for a
guy because God put that in us.
But I do hear stories likeyours and see where it's also a
stumbling block if we're notreally really careful with it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:47):
Yeah, very much so I.
I even started putting herbefore before, god you know,
like it yeah, unintentionallyunintentionally, yeah, but it
became to where, like that wasalways on my mind more than god
or I want something was going on.
I would worry about that versuslike okay, I need to make sure
I'm at church or whatever it mayher bible reading or praying,
whatever it may be and then shebegan to get lifted up above,

(01:10:09):
like I treated her and did allthis other stuff for her, and
then I kind of god just saved mefrom all this and I put god on
the back burner not completely,but wait, compared to where
where he was.
Whenever I first came back intochurch I mean, that's all I
read the Bible for six, sevenhours a day until I couldn't.
I'd fall asleep and wake up andread again, like I couldn't get

(01:10:30):
enough of it, and he was likeeverything you know.
And then I left him, you know,and God showed me that he led me
to the book of Hosea wheneverything was going on, and he
showed me he let me know.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
How long did you live with your Sunday school teacher
?
Once you left, what did lifestart to look like for you after
you made that decision to dothat?

Speaker 3 (01:11:02):
Okay, so I was there for about four months, three or
four months before I had gottenan apartment, and I was doing
good.
I started roofing for someother people.
I was doing pretty good.
I got myself an apartment but,like the first year, I had no
furniture.
I had a bed.
That was it.
So I had this empty, lonelyapartment.
I left everything I knew.

(01:11:23):
I didn't know anybody reallybesides them.
There were some people atchurch, but I left everything
that I knew for my entire life.
And then some people that Ireally trusted had hurt me.
And I remember I had been inchurch early to pray on a
Wednesday night before churchhad started and before it
started I walked out the churchand started searching for a

(01:11:44):
liquor store and I finally, Ifinally found, when I picked up
some liquor, picked upcigarettes again, when I hadn't
hadn't touched them since I,since I left, I smoked like
chain smoke on the way to NorthDakota and then I put them out.
That was it.
Smoked two or three packs, butthen that was it dakota, and
then I put them out, that was itsmoked two, three packs, but

(01:12:05):
then that was it.
And then, um, and I picked itup and I just went back to my
apartment and sat there and justdrank, sat up against the wall,
stared at the empty, no livingroom, and that began a struggle
where I uh it wasn't all thetime but it was, you know,
probably every week or somethingI was, I was drinking, just
sitting in an empty apartmentdrinking the cigars.
It was almost like a curse thatafter I picked them back up

(01:12:30):
with my ex-wife, like I nevercould completely, I'd go on
little stints but I could neverfully.
I didn't have that freedom Ihad from them like God
originally gave it to me.
And then I picked them back upand I couldn't get rid of them,
and so that went on for a while.
And then, um, the next year Iactually made it through um that

(01:12:52):
first year with no otherfurniture, and then I had
started my business and God justbegan to bless me.
And it just started, like everyyear, my business started
doubling and um bless me thatway, but I was still struggling
with smoking.
And then there's people I hadhired that did drugs and I just
couldn't seem to break thatcycle and everybody smoked

(01:13:12):
cigarettes.
And one day I had a bad day andI remember he was like into all
kinds of drugs, so I bought acouple hits of LSD off of him.
It was a bad idea, Because nowthat I've been back in church I
have all these convictions.
So I took these two right lsd.
And then, as it startsintensifying, I started thinking
gosh, what are you doing?

(01:13:34):
And those thoughts turned intoa horrible panic, bad trip.
I've never had a bad trip, butuh, and it was something I
couldn't come down from.
Everything was turning into afun house, everything around me,
like the way things looked, andI ended up calling some people
from church in the middle of thenight to come, get, to come
over there, because I was havinga horrible bad trip.

(01:13:54):
And God, when I try to get mybible out and read, and all the
words were just moving likewater across.
I couldn't do that try to listento the bible, nothing would
take it away.
And that was the last last timeI did drugs like it's, like I
didn't ever want to, and godactually gave me a dream about
that too.
That said, he was taking thatfrom me, but the cigarettes were

(01:14:15):
still, uh, were still the thing, and um, I was at this head,
went to a different church andwe had a Christmas play and and
um, and the Christmas play.
I had to hold these, so I heldthese chains up.
It's all black light stuff.
All these white chains up andbroke on these plastic chains in
the play, breaking them, and afew weeks later I was like

(01:14:37):
struggling with cigarettes.
And I just happened two nightsin a row.
Every time I'd start havingthese cravings, I'd always give
into it and I was like God,you've got to take it from me,
I'm going to smoke, I'm going tosmoke, I just know it.
And I made it through the firstnight and then it happened the
second night and I made it tothe second night and I fell
asleep and I had two differentdreams that night and the first

(01:14:57):
night, or the first.
The first dream, I was in thishouse and I was chained to all
these people and they allrepresented bondage.
They all like different people.
One was even, one was evensomebody that was in the
pornography, like I recognized,like that's what it stood for.
Right and I was chained to allthese people in this house bound
by chains.

(01:15:18):
And then then I saw myself inthe Christmas play.
I was in the audience and I sawmyself on the stage and I saw
myself reach up and break thosechains in the dream.

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):
Because you had the power.
Yeah, well, with God, obviouslyyeah, but your will to be
delivered?

Speaker 3 (01:15:37):
Delivered, yeah yeah.
And the next morning my pastorpreached a message talking about
giving you power to tread onscorpions and all this stuff.
And God told me.
He said I'm breaking thesechains of addiction in your life
and from since then I've neversmoked a cigarette.
I never had a desire to smoke acigarette.

(01:15:58):
Just completely gone,completely delivered, wow so was
gone, completely delivered.

Speaker 2 (01:16:03):
Wow, so many steps.
I think there's so many lessonshere about how God works, how
long-suffering he is, how heworks in us and with us.

(01:16:24):
To kind of walk it out, youknow, sometimes people get
delivered really rapidly andthey never go back.
And other people like me myprocess, like I don't feel like
I ever left God once I gave mylife back to him.
I was 28, but it took me yearsto really embrace his love for

(01:16:48):
me and, um, my identity in him.
Because I think we turn back tothose things because we don't
feel we don't love ourselves, wedon't feel worthy, we give up
on ourself, we don't have areason to fight, we have lots of
reasons to quit and that's allof our own internal pain of our

(01:17:12):
heart and our emotions that havenot been healed.
But man, god, is just so lovingand long-suffering and it
sounds like, even though you didgo back to your addiction a
couple different times, the Lordwas there with you in it and
you were able to pray and talkto him through it.

(01:17:33):
And I think that's such animportant fact because a lot of
people, the minute that they sin, they cut off themselves
communication from the Lord.
They they feel so separatedfrom him that they can't pray.
And I think your story is sucha beautiful example of the fact

(01:17:55):
that you were trying, throughoutall of it, to talk to him and
to read your Bible and, at thevery same time, still very much
struggling within, withinyourself.

Speaker 3 (01:18:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah it was.
There was times when I didn'twant to pray, obviously.
I felt unworthy.
And then sometimes I didn't, Istill went to church because I
knew if I didn't go to church itwas going to be a lot worse.
I just knew better.
So there was like probably ayear and a half or more that I
went to church every Sunday andWednesday, but I didn't want to
be there.
I felt dead.

(01:18:29):
I didn't feel a single thing, Iwas just there, you know.
But I continued.

Speaker 2 (01:18:35):
You were trying With your actions.
You were still trying.

Speaker 3 (01:18:39):
Yeah, but I felt unworthy.
I felt unworthy.
I felt like what's wrong withme because I sincerely did.
I went on several like Danielfast, like 21 days I fasted and
um, so many times and, uh, I'mlike what's wrong with me.
Like I told you I can't do it.
I know I can't do it.
There's one time where I got upwhen I was in the empty
apartment and I was like I don'tknow, you don't have to give

(01:19:00):
like 10% of everything, exactly10%.
But I was like I'm going togive you 10% of my day and it's
going to be the first 10%.
And I literally would get up atmidnight and I'd walk around my
from root, like follow thepattern of the whole apartment
Empty apartment and pray for twohours and 40 minutes.
I would pray and I did thisevery night, and then I'd go

(01:19:22):
back to sleep.
I would pray and I did thisevery night, and then I'd go
back to sleep and I was like whyI'm trying?
Why won't you take this from me?
I tried, sincerely, tried sohard and I don't know why.
I don't know if there'ssomething I was missing.
I wish it was where, because itcan't be by works.

Speaker 2 (01:19:38):
It can only be by grace and love.
Yeah.
And if he would have answeredand I don't know, I'm not God,
obviously, and there might bepeople listening to this that
could disagree but if he wouldhave answered you at that time
that you were doing that, youwould have felt like it was
something you could have done,like that would have created a

(01:20:03):
worthiness thing.
Like you know, instead of weare undeserving, it's nothing we
can do, it's not the amount offasting, the amount of prayer,
it's.
It is unmerited grace that godbestows on us because he loves
us.
I believe works are important,obviously, yeah, but I'm glad to

(01:20:26):
hear the fact that the Lord wasteaching you that you know.
Yeah.
No matter how much you'repraying or fasting, that's not
what's going to always get Hisattention.

Speaker 3 (01:20:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:20:40):
I mean, I think it does, but you know what I'm
saying.
Yeah, yeah, you know God ismarvelous in how he does things.
Yeah, I mean, I think it does,but you know what I'm saying.
It's a yeah, yeah, you know godis marvelous and how he does
things.
We don't always know how what'sgoing to be the thing.
So take me to where you aretoday.
So so you turned your lifearound after that, and what's
life look like for you now?

Speaker 3 (01:21:01):
well, now I have.
I have a house.
I just got a place um.
It's been, I've been, I'll behere 10 years and in april.
I've wanted a place for a longtime and every time I've been
ready to sign those papers too,and god say this is what you
want, not what I want.
So I stayed living in anapartment, putting up with
neighbors.
I just can't stay, can't stand,and finally, finally, um, I

(01:21:21):
just can't stand, can't stand,and finally, finally, not last
October, october before, godjust gave us everything.
I wanted, just a beautifulpiece of property on the river,
private, and he's given meeverything as far as that.
I wanted, you know, blessingwith that.
But now I'm praying for to beout of roofing.

(01:21:46):
So it's what pays the bills,but it's just so much I want to
do be in ministry, I want to goto prisons, I want to go to
different places and do things,and it's so time consuming.
I have to do everything myself,you know, from the work to the
paper, everything, paperwork,and it's like I don't have time
for God.
I'm so mentally, physically andspiritually exhausted.

(01:22:08):
I know it's not what God wantsfor me.
So, although I have everythingI could physically want, I've
realized that it isn't.
Even that still doesn't bringyou peace.
You could have whatever youwanted and it's not going to
bring that fulfillment or peace.
So now I'm at a spot where I'mfasting and praying for God to

(01:22:32):
make a way to leave roofingbehind.

Speaker 2 (01:22:37):
Yeah, to go into ministry full-time.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:22:41):
Even if I have some ideas for different things for
the help financially, but causeit may not be able to just be
full time ministry where itsupports everything else.
But that's what I would like tobe able to do is not be so
tired.
All I can give God is 2%, youknow that's not his will either.
Yeah, so that's where I'm at now.

(01:23:03):
I've made it through all, donethe business stuff and I don't
if I'm praying, for one dayhe'll give me that that thing
where I can walk away from thisone, like I walked away from the
one he's already yeah, and soyour heartbeat is really prison
ministry prison, prison ministry, and and and people addicted
yeah.
There's not enough peopleeither that is involved in it,

(01:23:27):
and they're hungry.

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
You mean in our church culture or?

Speaker 3 (01:23:33):
in general.

Speaker 2 (01:23:34):
In general, there's not enough.

Speaker 3 (01:23:36):
In general.
Yeah, I guess there's notenough.
I mean, anywhere you look,there's not enough people to go
into the prisons.
There's not enough facilitiesaround at least this city.
There's not enough people to gointo the prisons.
There's not enough facilitiesaround at least this city.
There's not enough for peopleaddicted and a lot of them like,
they're there for some shortlittle program and they're back
on the streets and they're notreally being taught Jesus.
That's what they really need.

(01:23:56):
That's what's going to change.
It isn't just some NA thing andI don't think it's great that
people have classes, but Ibelieve that when you you stand
up and say hey, I'm, I'm, myname is so-and-so and I'm an
addict, you're claiming thatpower over your life.
Yeah, you're claiming to beaddicted and say, hey, I'm free.
No, it's a trick to stay boundfor the rest of your life and I

(01:24:22):
just want more.
There's not enough people thatI know there's not, because I
talk to people all over theplace and there's one person
I've been fighting with for likeeight years now to try to get a
minister to that prison, andhe's been fighting.
He has life without and he'sbeen for like 20 years.
And every time he gets moved,then I have to try to reach out
to new pastors, and nobody seemsto want to go.

Speaker 2 (01:24:50):
Have you looked into the prison ministries that exist
within our organization,because I know there's a couple
people that are doing prisonministries Probably not in your
area, but I believe uh upci hasa prison ministry.
Have you looked into that tosee about being able to go where

(01:25:13):
you, where it is you want to go?

Speaker 3 (01:25:14):
yeah, I'm, I'm part of that.
I have a credentials with themfor north american missions to
do that um.
But they won't let me come intothe jail here in this area.
They say they got enough peopleand everything um the other
prisons.
I'm gonna have to try to startgetting there, but they're so.
They're far enough away, likewe're like when I'm working.
I just don't, I can't, I'moverwhelmed, do it and the

(01:25:37):
winters can get crazy here, likeblizzards and shut the highways
down like it's hard to drivethree hours um, but in time I'd
like to get away with from theroofing where I can do that.
So I do, am involved in that andum that's great yeah, some of
the ministers that are involvedin the prison ministry are.
Well, there's pictures of thehead chaplain.

(01:25:58):
He's in my book and then myfiance's book.
There's pictures of them atsome of the prisons in texas.
So I do actually I spoke withone of them this morning I do
talk, keep in contact with themand try to um, try to get things
done.
You know, advocate, advocatefor people that's wonderful,

(01:26:18):
terry.

Speaker 2 (01:26:19):
So what?
What has become of your brotherand your mom?
My mom, I mean you don't haveto talk about that, if that's if
you don't want to oh, it's fine.

Speaker 3 (01:26:28):
Um, my mom is in the next room.
I'm not sure what she's doingright now but she's so good,
yeah, she's up in age.
So, um, she stays with me andthen my brother has his own
place.
He's up here too.
He moved, he got out of prison.
He, he had to do.
He got sentenced to 15 years,um, because he ended up getting
the fight.
I got him out on bond and sixmonths later he ended up

(01:26:50):
stabbing somebody else and, um,but he, he ended up getting 15
years.
He did a little over 13 yearson that 15 and then, um, he got
released in august of 2018 andthen I met with the parole board
and said that he had a job whenhe came up here.
So he got released from prisonin Missouri, came straight up

(01:27:12):
here, started living with me atthat time and then it's in my
book but I actually baptized him.
I actually baptized him at thechurch.
Oh praise the Lord yeah picturesof that in the book.

Speaker 2 (01:27:36):
So, yeah, he's doing better.
Yeah, yeah, I am going to readyour book.
Oh, praise the Lord.
So what would you say to thebackslider that's out there you
know that has a similar story orleft when they were kids, like
you did.
What would you say to themtoday?

Speaker 3 (01:27:55):
I would say come back .
I mean obviously, but it's thatyou're never too far gone that
you can't come back, and he'salways waiting, you know, in
your life.
He can literally give you backall the years, like it talks
about giving you back the yearsof locust eight, like and it
says, and he says the which thearmy which he sent before.

(01:28:16):
So it's like god sent the armyof locusts to strip you and take
everything from you, to get youto a point of desperation and,
and you know, they're probablygoing through a lot of
desperation and in differentsituations, because, being
stubborn like we are, it takesus sometimes, it takes a lot of
situations to get us to you know, get desperate and come back

(01:28:38):
yeah, yeah they can always yeah,always come back.
He will restore everything.
He actually I didn't writeabout it, but like I was going
to file bankruptcy, I went on a21-day Daniel fast and on that
fast I was reading about theyear of Jubilee and everything
being restored and everything,and God told me I had an
attorney, I was getting ready tofinalize it, which would have

(01:29:00):
took I wouldn't even be able toget this house or anything, and
it would have took I wouldn'teven look at this house or
anything and, uh, it would havemessed my credit up, I think for
like 10 years.
And god said don't filebankruptcy, you know so, I
didn't.
And then I don't remember theexact time but within like a
week, like everything was wipedout of my credit, my credit now
I have excellent credit.
Like he did, everything waswiped away, restored back to me.

(01:29:21):
Um, man, he can just doeverything.
He literally will give you backeverything if you just, yeah,
like, start walking back towardsthem.

Speaker 4 (01:29:30):
It might be hard for a minute but you know that's
worth it anything and it's worthit yeah, yeah

Speaker 2 (01:29:38):
what would you say to the parent out there who has
lived with you know?

Speaker 3 (01:29:47):
Don't stop praying.
But you know, I believe God'sGod always hears and he's there
and I don't know why it took meso long, or, like I know my mom
was praying for me a long timeago, but he does hear it and
there might be.
Maybe he wanted me to.
I don't think I want likecondone sin, but maybe he saw
the bigger picture.

(01:30:07):
I don't, I'm not really sure.
I can't think on.
His thoughts are higher thanours.
But I would say don't stoppraying, just keep praying for
him.
It's possible.
You know, sometimes you putthem in situations.
There's another mom.
I'm talking to her son.

(01:30:28):
He just got 30 years, but oneof the people in the prison
ministry hooked me up with herand so now I'm talking to her
son and he's in Texas too, butshe's a praying mom and I
believe that that he was put inprison to bring him back.
You know it's not like that's alife saving, that that's a
life-saving thing.

Speaker 2 (01:30:44):
You know, yeah, it can be yeah yeah, yeah, just
keep praying yeah, I've heardlots of parents say um, they're
always glad when their kiddogets arrested because they can
sleep at night, because theyknow they're safe.

Speaker 3 (01:31:00):
That's what my mom said about me.

Speaker 2 (01:31:01):
She's, yeah, she's always felt safe that at least
she knows I'm safe, like that'syeah, mind-boggling yeah yeah, I
know so, um, do you have anylast minute thoughts, anything
you want to say to anyone that'sout there listening?

Speaker 3 (01:31:21):
um, I don't know, just don't give up.
I don't know what I'm trying tosay.
Now I'm on the spot thinking,yeah, just really, god's good,
and it doesn't matter whereyou've been, what you've done.
Yeah.
Your life can change for thebetter just like that, as soon

(01:31:43):
as you start walking towardsthem.

Speaker 2 (01:31:45):
Yeah, and and I'm going to just mention the book
again Um, it's called fromdarkness to light.
Uh, terry, uh, boucher, butit's B O U C H E R.
Um, terry has pictures in thebook.
It's very well written.
Uh, he is also, um, writes alot of poetry.

(01:32:07):
Terry has pictures in the book.
It's very well written.
He also writes a lot of poetry.
You've written a lot of poetryin the book as well.
So this could be a really greatresource for anyone out there
who shares a similar story toTerry's, because there's tons of
scripture in here as well, andthe Bible is alive.

(01:32:27):
It's going to do the job thatit's sent to do.
So I just want to encourageanybody out there who can relate
to his story, who might knowsomebody in prison or addicted,
you know, pick up a copy andgive it to them, because you
never know.
You never know what tool God isgoing to use to reach into the

(01:32:48):
heart of somebody to turn themaround.
And so, terry, I am very happyto meet you and I am so thankful
to God.
I mean, when I do thesepodcasts and I see what God does
in a life, it's just, it'smiraculous, but it just

(01:33:12):
illustrates so much His love forus that I don't think any of us
could really comprehend.
We can only know the story thathe's delivered us from.
But I'm so grateful that you'rehere today and preaching the
gospel and can testify of thegoodness of God.

(01:33:35):
And that's such a cliche.
I think that gets said over andover.
But I think it gets said frompeople who really have lived his
goodness, because it'sunmerited.
We do not deserve it and we arethe best ones to judge that,
because we know who we've beenand we know where we've been.
But I'm so glad that youreached out to me and I look

(01:33:59):
forward to digging into yourfiance's book.
I'll definitely have her on,yeah.
So thank you so much forsharing your testimony.

Speaker 3 (01:34:07):
You're welcome.
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:34:10):
Yeah, God bless you and and keep moving forward.
I know you will.

Speaker 3 (01:34:15):
You too.

Speaker 2 (01:34:16):
Okay, thank you for everybody for joining us, and if
you have a testimony to share,please reach out to us.
Our website istheredeemedbacksliderorg.

Speaker 1 (01:34:39):
We'd love to hear from you If you'd like to
support our ministry.
Your donation will be taxdeductible.
Visit our website attheredeemedbacksliderorg.
We hope you will tune in forour next episode.

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