Preacher, Prisoner, Surrendered - TRB #35 - Michael Torres - The Redeemed Backslider

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider.
With your host, Kathy Chestdain,Christian-based psychotherapist
and Redeemed Backslider.
This podcast is dedicated tothose who have wandered but are
ready to return to thelife-changing power of grace and
the freedom found in Jesus.

SPEAKER_07 (00:22):
Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider.
I'm your host, Kathy Chestain.
I'm a Redeemed Backslider andI'm a Christian-based
psychotherapist.
With me today in the studio, whocame down from Martinez area,
right?
Richmond.
Richmond, wow, even further isMichael Torres.
And his dad, who you can't see,is behind uh on the other side

(00:44):
of the camera, he actually liveshere.
So Michael came down to see hisdad and come into the studio
with us, which is always so muchnicer when we can do it in
studio.
So thank you so much for beinghere.

SPEAKER_01 (00:57):
Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_07 (00:58):
Yeah.
This is crazy.
And so we had a nice littleconversation off camera before
we started.
And Michael knows Pastor Kanefrom CLC, which is such a small
world when everybody startstalking.
And then, and then your dad isuh part of the pastoral team
from Fortress of Truth here.

(01:20):
Retired pastor from there, whichis here in our town.
And um anyway, so it it is sucha small world, and um, and God
is definitely working in in usbacksliders.

SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
Yes, he is.

SPEAKER_07 (01:34):
So I'm excited to hear your story.
And so I sent a littlequestionnaire out, yeah.
Uh, which I just started kind ofdoing actually.
Um, and you backslid at age 30,which uh is is interesting to me
that it was so much later inlife.
So tell me what life was like inyour childhood and teenage years

(01:59):
and adult years um before youbackslid at age 30.
I would guess you had arelationship with God for a very
long time before you walkedaway.
Yeah.
Right.
So walk me through thebeginning, what that was like.

SPEAKER_01 (02:14):
Um, so uh it's funny.
I was thinking about it.
I didn't plan on saying muchabout it.
Um, but I got the Holy Ghost atfive years old in Madera,
California.
Um my dad was assisting brotherClifford Clark at the time.
It was a uh prayer meeting.
I can still tell you uh theexact spot in the church where I

(02:34):
got the Holy Ghost.

SPEAKER_07 (02:36):
Um I'm amazed at one of my friends who's on the
podcast, um, Courtney Rakestraw,she got the Holy Ghost at three
years old.
Oh, that's so awesome.
And I was like, and I talked toher for a while about that
because I see children in mypractice and and I, you know, in
the developmental process, howman, that's I feel like that's a

(02:58):
miracle of God when He gives theHoly Ghost to kids that young.
There's something special.

SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
Very special.

SPEAKER_07 (03:05):
I mean, it's always special when someone gets the
Holy Ghost, but I think when youget it that young, it it feels
to me like there is a lifetimeand a lifelong calling from
birth.
Yes.
Sort of.
You know what I'm like Samuel.
Yes, yes, and uh I'm so wow,that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (03:26):
I can uh and also people don't remember memories
at that early, but you do.
Oh yeah, and she did.

SPEAKER_01 (03:33):
Yeah.
Yeah, I I remember one night uhwe were in uh this one we lived
in Madeira Acres.
Um I was praying for money.
I needed some money, and I askedJesus for money, and uh they had
given me a roll top desk, anduh, I was telling I I well I'd
asked my mom for money and shesaid, Why don't you pray?
So I prayed, and then I openedthe roll top desk and there was

(03:56):
money there.
Oh so I could still that's oneof my memories of praying for
something and God answering myprayers.
Yeah, and uh I I do remember umthat's one that I actually hold
on and hold on to, right?
Um then uh I do the bat beingbaptized.
I could still remember.
But I had a buddy named StephenMantuth, I think he's a pastor
somewhere.

(04:16):
He is, yeah.
Um, but he had just got the HolyGhost and got baptized, and he's
like, Man, it feels like newskin.
And sure enough, I when I gotbaptized, I was I came out and
I'll never I can still remember.
I was five years old.
Wow, and I still remember uhfeeling like new skin.
Wow, yeah, yeah.
Wow, yeah, it was awesome.

SPEAKER_07 (04:36):
Yeah, and wonderful that you remember, I mean,
because it is an experience, andI think they psychologists talk
about how memory is related toemotion, and so typically we
remember the bad because theemotion is so big, right?
But getting the Holy Ghost andgetting baptized is also such a
big emotion and experiencebecause it's undeniable.

SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
Yes, it's undeniable.
You can't take it away from me.
You can't take that away fromme.

SPEAKER_07 (05:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (05:04):
Um in the middle of all that, uh, we went to Brother
Clark left, and then um a pastornamed Brother Bo came, Kenneth
Bo, and then we went and to LA,Bellflower.
Okay.
And my dad helped him, and thenstarted a couple he started a
couple churches over there.

(05:25):
Um a gypsy church.
Well, I think they call itRomano Romano now.
I don't want to back then, youknow what, you know.
Anyways, it's a romano church.

SPEAKER_07 (05:32):
Uh I don't know what that means.

SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
Oh, I think gypsy is not what we use anymore.
Not politically correct.
Yeah, yeah.
So I think they call it Romano.

SPEAKER_07 (05:41):
I think but it's like a uh free um it it's the
ethnic, the ethnicity of them.

SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
Uh there uh he started church with the Romano
people that I always thought agypsy was like a vagabond.
Well, that's that's the I thinkthat's why it's an uh
politically incorrect now to useuh because of that, right?

SPEAKER_07 (06:03):
I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 (06:04):
Okay, yeah, good to know.
Beautiful people, yeah.
Uh, you know, and it's funnybecause now growing up around
them and stuff like that, I I werecognize them and stuff.

unknown (06:12):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (06:12):
And they're like, what?
I'm like, they're like, you're aguy show, you know, like you
know, also and I still rememberall that.
And uh, anyways, but it'sbecause people don't speak
Romano, they don't listen.

SPEAKER_07 (06:23):
I didn't never know it was a um ethnicity.

SPEAKER_01 (06:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's really cool.
It's a it's inter they'reinteresting people too.

SPEAKER_07 (06:30):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (06:31):
Um, so um then uh there uh in Bellflower, um when
we we I I had some some prettygood very good memories there as
well.
But um uh that's where hestarted a Spanish work and uh
the gypsy work.
But in the middle of that, itwas really cool.
It was after school.

(06:51):
Uh I had these, these are someof my memories that are you know
uh he had a Bible class and um Iremember this is my first time
actually um filling a purpose.
Like um he would have these uhwow, I didn't realize it was

(07:14):
gonna hit me like this.
Um We have in there on purpose.
Yeah, uh so he uh he would havethese um quizzes and um on like
who wrote the book of you knowGenesis or Acts or and then

(07:35):
memorizing the the the books ofthe Bible and I remember
studying the Bible and I thinkthat's where I fell in love with
God.
I think that's where I fell inlove with his word.
And um that that little classafter ch after school was my

(07:56):
favorite class and I loved itand had candy and and toys, but
it was learning the word of God,and I was so happy to know him.
And uh anyways, uh then my momwould um my mom would play these
uh records or records uh of allthe uh of the stories, the Bible

(08:18):
stories, and and I fell in lovewith those stories and I would
lay down, they had a uh oldwooden um I cannot believe this.
That's good.

SPEAKER_07 (08:28):
That means your heart is tender.
That's good, Michael.

SPEAKER_01 (08:33):
Um they had this old record player, uh it was wood,
and and uh the record player wasin the top, and you would open
the the cabinets, and they wouldthat's where the records were,
and we had the entire Biblestories all on records?
Yeah, on records.
Oh wow, it was so cool.
And you know, you put it on,right?
And if it skipped, you have toget up and you know fix it.

(08:56):
And um we also had a whiteupright piano, and my mom would
play that white upright piano atand sing and uh worship God at
night.
And uh so I still remember a lotof these old, old songs uh that
even people my age don't know.
Probably like the Rambos and theYes, the Rambo, yes, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (09:18):
I I'll pull those up now and again on YouTube because
that's my childhood too, right?
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (09:25):
Yeah, good stuff.
Or uh uh James Cleveland.
Uh I've had my share of life'sups and downs.

SPEAKER_07 (09:33):
Yes, I didn't know who sang that.
Because uh Nancy Grantquist, Ithink, recorded that.
Oh yeah.
Um so that's who I know for.
She's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 (09:43):
Yeah, I love Nancy Grantquist.
Yeah, uh, I'd like to bring herup at some point.
Um, yes, I actually rememberthem coming through Madeira when
they were doing the whole uhtour.

SPEAKER_07 (09:53):
Right?

SPEAKER_01 (09:53):
Yeah, yeah.
I still remember that.
Like it's pretty crazy.
Um, and then uh do you probablyremember uh Pass the Torch then?

SPEAKER_04 (10:00):
No.

SPEAKER_01 (10:01):
Uh in the eight it was like 81, 82.
Um, the uh the Western Districtat the time was United, right?
Um they there was uh Olympics inLA and they did this uh pass the
torch thing and they camethrough and you'd uh walk a mile
or run a mile.
I remember running a mile withmy mom.
I think I was five, I had tobeen about five.
I had to been five, because Ithink we were five when we moved

(10:23):
to LA.
So yeah, I still remember allthat.
I think Brother Williams was theone that um yeah, I and they
they had the the shirt and itsaid pass the torch and all
that.
Um I have these memories, right?
It's crazy.
God has been um definitely apart of my life, and then um, so
in the middle of all that, thestudying the falling in love
with the Bible, um a little um Iwas watching some of your

(10:48):
podcasts.
Uh um it was uh Sister Haney orMontez or um Yeah, Stephanie
Haney Montez, yes.
Thank you.
Um she said that she feltisolated.
Uh and yeah, I did, definitely,all those years.
Um different, different, right?
Uh I connected with Stephaniebecause uh she has a um sanguine

(11:08):
personality, yet still feltisolated.
And I had a sanguine, I didn'treally have other than I
mentioned Stephen Mantue, thatwas the only really really
friend I had um that whole time.
And it was it was it wouldn't bewhat you would consider a best
friend, you know.
Um so that was the closest Ihad.
But nothing against him.
I love him.
Don't please.

SPEAKER_07 (11:30):
It's just just experiences right as a kid.
Yeah.
Yeah, finding our friendshipsand where we fit, where we don't
fit.
Right.
Right.
And I think a lot of backslidersshare that commonality that we
felt like we didn't fit.

SPEAKER_03 (11:45):
Yes.

SPEAKER_07 (11:46):
You know, and looking back, I don't know how
you feel, but um I didn't fit,but I think that had to do with
my own woundedness.
Yeah.
And my inability to feelcomfortable within my own skin
and deal with the things thatwas troubling me, you know.
Yes.
Um, and I think too, it was alot of sensitivity.

(12:10):
I I'm gonna guess, because I gotan idea about you already.
But I think when people arereally highly sensitive, yes,
we're acutely aware of others,and so we're reacting to what
other people probably don't evenrealize they're transmitting.

SPEAKER_01 (12:28):
Yes, definitely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (12:31):
It took us all these years to figure that out.

SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that's it, that'swhat it is.
Um, we had um some of the epicthings that would happen.
Obviously, the night stalker wasin LA.
Uh, I remember when uh he gotcaught.
The neighbors, we all came out,you know, and everybody was
cheering and happy.

SPEAKER_07 (12:51):
Was that in your area?
Yeah, that was in your wow.

SPEAKER_01 (12:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, it'll I'll never forgetbecause we listened to the
radio, we didn't watch TV,right?
Right.
So um our neighbor, well, it wasall here.
The neighbor would always likelet us come over and we'd watch
Mr.
Rogers and listen.

SPEAKER_07 (13:06):
I think the Pentecost watch TV when they
weren't supposed to watch TV.
And then they just hide it whencompany came over at night.
That's why we think abouthypocrites because it was so
Yeah.
When you're a little kid, itdoesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_01 (13:24):
No, it's funny now though.
Yeah, yeah.
Uh so we would um, you know, uhmy mom was she wasn't um a
proponent of guns, but duringthat time, she made my dad get
the gun out, you know, becauseit was very scary.
It was what we call earthquakeweather, so it was hot and uh so
you people would keep thewindows open.
Right.
And uh uh, but in the middle ofall that, uh, she would come and

(13:47):
read uh stories.
Um we had these bunk beds, andshe read about Pearl Harbor and
all that, but she'd always readus uh stories from the Bible.
And um she would tell me thesestories about David, and I
genuinely believe this.
Um well, you know, God isimmutable, right?
And so because he'sunchangeable, you can look at

(14:09):
what he's done and know what hedoes.
Right because he's got rightsomething perfect can't change
because if it changes, itbecomes imperfect.
So this perfect God would sethas always set things in motion,
he's already in in front of usand behind us.
Right.
So I I genuinely believe bylooking at what he's done, that
he's done this before.

(14:30):
So he was setting my mom up withme, telling me stories uh that
would help me later in lifelater on when I needed it.
And uh David has been um so youknow, not me, but scholars
think, because I don't know, Iwasn't there, but scholars
believe um they're much smarterthan me that David had uh

(14:51):
bipolar.

SPEAKER_07 (14:52):
And um if you read uh his psalms, you know, they're
like they are they are one psalmis joyful, the other one is
depressive, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (15:03):
Yeah, yeah.
So um, you know, uh holding onto that and looking at somebody
that you can kind of kind ofconnect with.
Um, my mom gave me David, yeah.
And um, so um that helped me.
Um, and she gave me the storiesof you know overcoming and and
the difference between David andSaul.

(15:24):
And those stories have have umhave helped me immensely.

SPEAKER_03 (15:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (15:29):
Um, so I do remember when the Night Stalker was
caught, and uh, I mean, you goto the donut shop, and there's
his face and all that, right?
Like, um, I'll never forgetthat.
But uh, and the neighbor cameover to to um like tell us
because we didn't have a TV, butwe already heard it on the
radio.
Every, I'm telling you,everybody was in the streets
celebrating, hugging, and yeah,it was almost like you know, I

(15:50):
you hear these stories aboutWorld War II, how about people
doing that's actually how it wasin our neighborhood.
Everybody's out cheering and allthat.
I still I assume that.
And then in 87, um, we lived inum uh La Marata.
La Marada.
And that was the Whittierearthquake that happened there.
Oh, yeah.
Remember that.

SPEAKER_07 (16:10):
Uh I remember um Northridge.
Yes, I don't remember theWhittier one, but I remember
Northridge.

SPEAKER_01 (16:18):
Yeah, yeah, that was in 90, right?
Or 91.
I don't I don't know.
Um well it was funny.
The the funny thing about itwas, I mean, not as an ha-ha,
but that was a very dangerousearthquake that people died.
If I would have gone to schoolthat day, the whole ceiling fell
right where I was sitting.

SPEAKER_07 (16:33):
Oh wow, yeah.
So God spared you.
He did, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (16:37):
He did, he 100% did.
Um I'll never forget that day.
Um uh, you know, I can rememberwaking up and the whole thing
shaking, and we already hadearthquake, you know, um uh
practices already.

SPEAKER_07 (16:49):
And then, you know, yeah, those were the days when
they taught us that inelementary school, right?
We had the drills.
I remember that too, right?

SPEAKER_01 (16:56):
Yeah, so I get up, get my I get my brother and his
uh uh our he's like a hisfamily, Casey Clark, who grabbed
him and I got him and put himunder the bed, and then um our
parents came to the you know,they're in the doorway holding
all you guys all right?

SPEAKER_08 (17:09):
Yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_01 (17:10):
Um but I remember all that, and then um
incidentally, um we left.
There was a a church situationthat happened, um, and uh we all
had to leave.
Uh so um, and that that was myspiritual earthquake, right?
Like all of a sudden the peoplethat have we like the clerks

(17:31):
were we're very close.
Um our our school was reallycool.
It would it'd be Tuesday throughFriday.

SPEAKER_07 (17:37):
Was it a Christian school?
Or or okay.
So you you grew up going toChristian school?
Well, you're fortunate.

SPEAKER_01 (17:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (17:46):
I know.
I went to public school.
Trust me, I think I I knowthere's pros and cons to both,
but yeah, I look back, I'mgrateful to have been raised in
a Christian home.
Yeah, you know, and publicschool just made me aware of
what else is out there, I guess,that I probably may not have

(18:08):
noticed otherwise.
But I know that, you know, whenyou're in a Christian school,
there's a lot of confinement aswell.
So I think maybe it's justindividual for people.

SPEAKER_01 (18:20):
I think if if I would if I was gonna run a
Christian school, I would focuson the teachers because the
students should be the maingoal, right?
Um I think that's Christianschools are important.
Um I've I d I used to be hate Iused to hate Christian schools.

SPEAKER_05 (18:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (18:39):
But I've done a full kind of circle, and especially
now when I'm looking um becausethe Jesus said uh he taught that
we're salt and light.
And the ingredients don't workif if light's not being shown,
if salt's not in the in the inthe so it's not isolation, it's
separation.
You can be separated in a pile,like you know, different uh you

(19:01):
look different, right?

SPEAKER_06 (19:02):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
So um so it's not isolation.
Yeah, it's not isolation.
But we do need to protect ourkids.
And I think um I thinkprotecting our kids is um
putting the right teachers in inin in their life.
And if you can't, if you can'tafford to have those teachers,
maybe do homeschool that becauseum those are the things that bad

(19:23):
teacher can make a bigdifference.
It makes it horrible, it makeseither way.
If you have a good teacher, it'slike Sister Gibson, great.
I'm not gonna mention the badteachers because they're
probably still alive.

SPEAKER_07 (19:33):
But when you're a kid, it hurts.
It's horrible.
It really sti I mean, I have youknow, 60-year-old clients,
70-year-old clients that stilltalk about their childhood and
their high school days and theirelementary days because when
they were bullied or they had abad teacher, like they believe
that they internalize that andit affects them their whole

(19:55):
life.

SPEAKER_01 (19:56):
I still forgive these teachers every day.
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (20:01):
So I think there's so some seeds were already
getting planted.
As much as you loved God, yeah,there was still some things that
was hurting you along the way.

SPEAKER_01 (20:10):
Yeah, yeah.
Uh yeah, and then that's whathappened.
We we that's that that's thejourney that things split up
right in there in that end time.
I remember my my favoriteChristmas was in uh Lakewood.
Uh I was I turned seven.
That was my first my birthday'sChristmas Eve, so like it's all
kind of it's easy to remember.
But um, anyways, so uh but afterthe that earthquake, we came up

(20:34):
to we moved to Modesto becauseof all the the things that
happened there.
And um uh just to be clear, andthe Clarks were amazing, it had
nothing to do with them.
It was like there was uh I thinkit was a church split actually.
I you know what it was a churchsplit, I believe what it was,
and um, and so they had to leaveand we had to leave too because
we were all part of it.
So um, and that's different,right?

(20:55):
Because you're a kid, you're notreally understanding everything,
and you see that the Clarks arerighteous people.
Like I was gonna say, it wasTuesday through Friday, so we
would spend the weekendtogether, we go for service, and
then Monday we'd hang out, sowe'd go to Disneyland, or it was
cool, right?
Like it was we go to the MojaveDesert, these were m great
memories, you know.

(21:16):
And then all of a sudden that'staken away.
And uh I was already a lonelykid, already not you know,
really didn't have any friends.
Um, so they take that away.
It was uh it was a little moretraumatic than I guess I I
realized.
Uh but we come up to Modesto,and um there it was the the

(21:40):
funny thing about was the nextone was an 89 earthquake with uh
I remember that because I'm anA.
Oh, the Bay Area.
Yeah, yeah.
So I actually felt that one.
So we won an earthquake andthere's a trend with you in
earthquakes.
I remember seeing the carsgoing.
I was trying to do my homeworkand I was listening to the A's
game on the radio on the radiouh in my dad's office.

(22:00):
But anyway, so it was some funnythings about that.
But um, so there, um, but inModesto, I started um having
friends.
It was a guy named ChrisWilliams, who was my first
friend, and um then um um himand then it was uh uh Tim
Powell.
I met him at um Donkey Rock umuh junior camp.

(22:25):
Um and uh that was the place togo, you know.
Even all the pre PK kids wouldgo, like um Heidi Grandquist,
all of them, you know, like allof the it would all go, you
know.
And uh so that was fun.
But and that that's where I metuh Temple, and then ended up
that uh his dad um was also usedpastor in Fireball at one time,

(22:47):
then he was going to Modesto.
And uh so we all um just kind ofconverged slowly together, and
uh so he became one of my bestfriends, and then I met a d uh
another kid at camp um namedDavid Short.
And uh so those are the two thatI for the first time in my life
I actually had real friends.
Good.

SPEAKER_08 (23:07):
How old were you?

SPEAKER_01 (23:09):
So this uh Tim Pau was a nine.
I was nine years old with TemPau, and then David was ten.

SPEAKER_07 (23:16):
So you you already understood loneliness at that
early of an age.

SPEAKER_06 (23:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (23:25):
Yeah.
I I wonder where where becauseyour personality's still
developing, right?
Yeah you know, and theself-awareness also is still
developing.
How did you recognize where doyou think the loneliness came
from at such an early age?

SPEAKER_01 (23:44):
Um I think that's a good question.
I think uh not fitting any ofthe boxes, you know.

SPEAKER_07 (23:51):
But in what way?
Because this was all yourobservation, right?
Your internal awareness.
What did you notice?
I mean, where were you feelinglike you didn't uh fit?

SPEAKER_01 (24:02):
Oh, that's a good um yeah.
Uh well, like it's like I meanthe kids would point it out too,
right?
Like, um, because I'mimaginative, you know, I would
think of things.
I like to you know CreativeCreative, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And um and I and and and itwould be weird, like um the kids

(24:23):
we would it was always uh someweird like oh okay, here's a
perfect example.
Um we were we had like a it waslike a a kids' night, we were
all there.
Well um maybe this I shouldn'tsay the story, um, but um we
were boxing and it was me, and Iwas the youngest against all of

(24:44):
them.
Like I would box one, knock himdown, and then the next one
would come, and the next one,and it would and it was it was
literally me versus all of them.
And in games it was constantlybeing me versus all of them.

SPEAKER_07 (24:57):
It was like they kind of naturally Oh yeah, so
yeah, gravitated together as aclub.
Yeah.
Okay, so you notice that rightaway, right?
What do you make of that nowthat you are what what do you
notice about that now?
Uh you know I that you've comeback to the Lord.

SPEAKER_01 (25:17):
Yeah, yeah.
I um i it dude it still happensin the um I think um I mean this
is gonna sound pretentious, Idon't mean it to sound this way,
but it seems like they seesomething that makes them feel
less bored and they don't likeit, whether they understand it

(25:37):
or not.
Um so um because of that, theirreaction is you know, and um so
I don't know, people call itjealousy or whatever, but it
whatever it is.

SPEAKER_07 (25:52):
Um I've always said or felt, I think the Lord
revealed this to me, and maybeit was just a way to comfort me,
because again, it's not apretentious thing, it's uh it's
it's a endeavor to understand,you know, and um but I felt like

(26:13):
a leader never fits in with thecrowd.
And so when the crowd, you know,the leader is always apart from
and the crowd is alwayscongregated, and Jesus was never
part of the crowd, he was alwaysleading, and he never fit
either, and it's it's not thatbecause le leaders come in all

(26:34):
shapes and sizes, and you know,I could lead in one little
fragment of life that's mylittle corner of the world,
right?
Yeah, but it really helped me toaccept being okay with being
different, yeah, you know,because I I have a I'm a

(26:56):
question asker, you know.
I just ask, I see, I notice, Iobserve.
And I I think I've always beenthat way.
But I was also very, very youngwhen I noticed people didn't
invite me.
Yes, I didn't get invited tobirthdays.
I don't think I've ever been ina wedding in my life.
Oh, and I've and not that I needto, but when all your friends

(27:19):
growing up are always insomebody's wedding and then no
one ever asks me, I'm like, uh,what's going on here?
You know, you try to understandbecause we can't help but feel
rejected by it.
And so, um, anyways, I I thinkit's incredible that you already
understood some of that at suchan early age.

(27:40):
You you clearly had to be verysensitive, you know, and um, but
that's what I think.
I think leaders never fit withthe crowd.
So when the crowd isn'taccepting you, we should rejoice
in that, I think.
Yeah, and then figure out, okay,God, where do you have me?
Oh, that's good.
But there's also gonna be fewpeople that will, you know, I

(28:03):
think loneliness um is alsoloneliness can have to do with
childhood trauma and rejection,but it also can be the mark of
ministry or the propheticministry, because walking with
God is is a one-on-one walk, andit can also often be very

(28:27):
lonely.
I've heard so many people thatum operate in prophetic ministry
at being very, very isolating.

SPEAKER_02 (28:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (28:38):
And I and I I believe that that's by God's
design.
Yeah, you know, yeah, but it ithelps to understand those things
because we I mean, still I Icarry the desire to be accepted
and to fit in, you know, eventhough I am on so many levels,

(28:59):
there's still that internal needto just have a place.

SPEAKER_01 (29:04):
Yeah, you want to be normal.
I mean me.
I wanted to be normal, right?
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah, I I in prison, rather.
That's fast for real fast.
Just to highlight that.
Um, I'll never forget.
I watched this movie over andover again because it was a
sandstorm and they just put iton a loop.
Um, but it was this there was asaying in it the one reason why

(29:24):
I kept watching it because theykept relating to these there
were these outcast um outlawsthat were saving the day kind of
thing.
And one of them would saynormal.
Normal's just a setting on thewasher machine.
Yeah, you know what I mean?
We can't normal.
So yeah, that's what I wanted.
I wanted to be like the rest ofthem.
I wanted to fit, I wanted to fitwith them.

(29:45):
And it it just wasn't happening.

SPEAKER_07 (29:47):
But man, Michael, it sounds like God had such a
special touch of your life uhman from the beginning, you
know.

SPEAKER_01 (29:58):
Yeah, yeah.
I'd I I definitely stillremember some prayer meetings
with him.
Um even as a little kid, it'ssomething funny that you brought
that up.
Um we would I would um Iremember I was I just was over
there at the church in Modestouh in October.
Um I just was wanting to see mykids and then um so I was

(30:19):
hanging out and they weregetting the ha the church ready
for uh a service, so I ended uphelping them paint.
Um but in that section uh therewas a little step that I would
always go and pray and Iremember uh I that memory came
back when I'm looking at it, youknow, I was kinda in that I was
right there.
And I remember that was whereGod uh called me the first time.

(30:44):
And uh so I had to been nine orten.
And uh but it was at that step.
Um I can still remember it.
I still remember, I stillremember praying.

SPEAKER_07 (30:53):
What did he say?

SPEAKER_01 (30:55):
That's so crazy.
He's all you're called.
I'm calling you to preach.
And um, I didn't want to be apreacher, I didn't like it.
Um, my dad would talk about thisis a beautiful life, and I'm
like, this is terrible.
I can't watch TV, I can't playsports.
This is horrible.
What are you talking about?
I remember I don't want this,like um because we don't

(31:22):
understand at that age, youknow.
Yeah, no, and and then these uhI'm I'm calling you and I was
praying, and I'm like, Are yousure?
I don't I don't know I don'twant this, you know, but um but
I think deep down I did, like,you know, because I want to be
used, I wanted to be uh have apurpose, right?
Yeah, and I found if I foundthat purpose.
So that was the first time,yeah.

(31:42):
And it was like I remember it,yeah.
I'm I'm calling you, I'm callingyou to preach.
And so um there it was, and uhsome okay, and then um fast
forward what uh going uh toschool and all that, and um I
trying to fit in.
Um well, so David Short showedup uh in my sixth grade, and

(32:05):
that was uh the first time soTim Pal still wasn't going to
our school yet.
David Short, um, I rememberseeing him.
I'm like, what you're in myschool?
So I finally had a friend myage, yeah, it was really cool,
and um that was that was thereal friendship.
That was the first realfriendship I had um in going to
school, and um so we we ended upliving in the same town, riding

(32:28):
bikes.
Uh, we'd ride bikes to eachother's house and stuff like
that.
Um, so that was my first okay.
I have a real friend.
Well, he's different, so youhave two kids that are
different, right?
You know, and uh so we we got itwas God, yeah, absolutely put
you together, yes, yeah,orchestrated from the beginning,
all the way.

(32:48):
And um so in that that was agood year.
That was Sister Gibson was myteacher.
And um we had like nine kids inthat class, it was perfect.
It was it was it was perfect,and uh so it's so out of that
class, it was uh me, um so uhDavid Short, um Bobby Rodella,

(33:11):
and um Nathan Sandoval.
I'm not sure what about Nathan,but I know David's pastoring and
Bobby's assistant pastor inAntika.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 (33:21):
Wow, wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 (33:22):
Yeah, so that was the special little and then
Stephanie Weems is now Jones, Ithink.
I think she's the pastor's wifein um Texas somewhere.
So like this little group ofpeople that God put together
that, you know.
Anyways, so but that was a goodyear, and then things started
moving direction.
Uh, but I started wanting to fitin.

(33:43):
And uh so in junior high, um,that's when I started, you know.

SPEAKER_07 (33:48):
Um yeah, normal struggles of teenage years.
Yeah.
Okay, but were you still like inlove with God and still pursuing
him, even though you probablywere struggling in the other
areas?
It would be or do you feel likeyou kind of that's when I
started?

SPEAKER_01 (34:08):
Yeah, I was already starting to get a lot of hurt,
and um, and then uh so I didactually.
I I and I felt like well, if youcould smoke weed and all that,
that was cool, right?
So that's where I wanted to go.
I just wanted to be cool.
I just wanted to be to fit in.
Right, right.
And uh all the my friends wereolder, um, a lot older, uh,
because there was nobody otherthan David Short, but he didn't

(34:29):
even go to my church, he was tothe series church.
So in my church, everybody wasolder than me.
Everybody, and so I I wasalready going to the high
school, uh, Sunday schoolbecause there was nobody my age.
Yeah, right.
So and so all those guys, and umyeah, so I uh noticing girls and
all that, and um I wanted Iloved their attention alike

(34:52):
because I I felt like it was avalue thing there, of course,
yeah.
Yeah, so that's when all thatstarted happening, and then I
found that you know, if you'refunny and outgoing, that you
know, things can happen right,get a little bit more attention,
yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So that um that went thatdirection.
And um, but I still loved God,yeah, and it was hurting me that

(35:17):
and I just felt like I couldn'tmake and then with all that
pressure that back then, youknow, the the you just didn't
think you can make it.
I just like well, I rememberasking God, like, why'd you even
have me alive?
I can't, I can't live like Ican't, you know?

SPEAKER_07 (35:30):
Because there's so many eyes.
I mean, I think growing up whenwe, you know, I don't know how
old you are, but I'm 58 and andthe focus was so much on the
outward that there was a lot ofjudgment.
And and I don't know that it wasever like nowadays I learn to
understand motive, right?

(35:51):
Yeah.
People don't always, they're notjudging you from a bad place of
motive.
It's just what we learned,right?
You know, yeah, it it's just itwas a cultural thing and we felt
it, but it wasn't because peopleprobably didn't like us.
It was just that we are told ifyou don't do this, then this is
what it means.

(36:12):
Even you know what I'm saying?
So it was very hard.
And I think it's an importantpiece to talk about because
there's, you know, and I talk tobacksliders and people, that is
the biggest hurdle for them tojump in coming back to our
church, uh, UPC churches,because that's what they

(36:33):
remember that was theirexperience.
And yet, I don't know what it'sbeen like for you, but for me,
um it's way different now.
And probably because we'remature, sure, and and we it's
between us and God, but there'sso much more love and
acceptance.
And I think that when we'rekids, we just don't know how to

(36:55):
understand it or no talk aboutit or ask questions about it.
It just is it just feels soblack and white.

SPEAKER_02 (37:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (37:02):
So so you guys feel that too, huh?

SPEAKER_02 (37:05):
Because girls, we definitely felt it.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (37:08):
But yeah, it does feel like an impossible way to
live because any little mistakewould make you an outcast.
Yeah, yes, exactly.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (37:17):
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
And that and then and you know,so there's a lot that happened
there.
Um, I uh got in trouble.
There's a I don't know if youever remember it, but there was
a convention called PSR,Progression.

SPEAKER_07 (37:29):
I remember that was the beginning of the what's the
other organization?

SPEAKER_01 (37:34):
WPF.

SPEAKER_07 (37:35):
Yeah, I think PSR was kind of the start of WPF
before it finally changed.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (37:41):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (37:42):
I remember that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (37:44):
So our church was heavily involved in it.
Uh Brother Keys was part of theand but Brother Clark was too.
So um, so I from the beginningremember all of it.
Um, so I was definitely alreadyfeeling the oats, trying to just
fit in, trying to find my part,and and it was killing me the
whole time.
But um I got in trouble.

(38:06):
I think uh well, it's it's allunder the blood.
But uh I it is, but you knowwhat?

SPEAKER_07 (38:11):
There's people out there that haven't come back, so
it's yeah, you know, I have noidea what your story is,
Michael, but it is so importantto be able to share what God has
redeemed in your life and andhealed because people people
often feel like they've gone toofar.

SPEAKER_01 (38:30):
Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah.
Well, and and I what happenedwas I we had we were getting I
got I got high and drunk in PSR,is what happened.
A lot of people did, and it'ssenior camp.
Yeah, it's in your camp, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (38:44):
I mean, seriously, Brother Mahaney talks about
being at senior camp or campmeeting, and he said he was
drunk every single day.
And I mean, he's a famousevangelist now.
It happens, yeah, yeah, youknow, and that's just the
reality of what we've lived,right?

SPEAKER_01 (39:02):
Yeah, yeah, that's what happened.
And I I got in trouble.
I got in trouble.

SPEAKER_07 (39:05):
And so from church trouble or law enforcement
trouble?

SPEAKER_01 (39:08):
No, of church.
They said so.
I had to sit with my parents,and um, so this was kind of like
this transition part.
And um, I was already I wasplaying the bass for a youth
service, and so I I had to sitdown from that.
And um, so I'm sitting with theyouth would sit all on the right
side, and my parents, my mom saton the left side, so I had to

(39:29):
sit with that uh my mom.
Um, well, brother uh he's mybishop now, but uh Mark Morgan
came through and uh he saidthere's I'm the only one sitting
on that side because everybodyelse is sitting in the youth,
right?
He says there's a young man overhere uh that's gonna uh just
point to the section, you know,that uh I believe is uh God told

(39:50):
me he's gonna make uh gonna turnhis life around tonight.
And uh I I still remember this,and I'm like, yeah, right.
There's like no way.
You know, I I can't do this, youknow.
And um so with Tim Powell and uhDaniel Warren came, and another
kid named Luke, and they'relike, dude, after it was

(40:11):
preaching when he was done,they're like, You need to go
down there, let's go down there.
And I'm like, All right, whynot?
So I walk and um a guy namedJulio Hernandez um started
praying for me, and uh man, I'llnever forget again.
God just all over, you know, andand uh I was like, All right,

(40:32):
I'm gonna do this again.
Let's try it, let's go, youknow.

SPEAKER_07 (40:34):
And uh because it was never really about your walk
with God, it was learning how tolive, right?

SPEAKER_01 (40:40):
Right, yeah, yeah.
In this world, yes, yeah, how tomake it, right?
Yeah, that's powerful, yes.
So that that started it, and um,but we didn't really have
anybody like we didn't haveanybody preaching or anything in
our youth.
Um, they were already kind ofolder, and um, so uh because of
that, like uh um Jeff Morgan wasour youth pastor, and he um

(41:05):
anyways, we had that was anextended revival, and so we
hadn't had Sunday school in awhile.
And so Brother Keys said, uh,you guys need to have Sunday
school.
So that that was like a one ofthose revivals.
So it was uh Saturday orsomething, Friday or Saturday
night.
Well, so Sunday morning umbrother Keys is teaching in the
main sanctuary.

(41:25):
We're in the youth section or inthe youth chapel, and nobody
interrupts Brother Keys.
Like nobody, I still I don'tthink they still interrupt,
don't do that.
But we're all over here and Ihave nothing to lose.
I'm like, you know, right, youknow, and uh he goes, Brother
Jeff Morgan's like, if you guyswant revival, well, we need some

(41:46):
radicals, and he goes, If if youwant to do it, I man, I still
feel it.
You need I want you to take offrunning, run around the
sanctuary, and come back.
Well, I'm already in trouble, soI have nothing to lose.
So I take off running, right?
And unbeknownst to me, all mybuddies, all of us, I see my
buddies there, you know, theythey all ran with me, right?
Well, to I didn't know this.
Well, brother Keys was in the inthe middle of it, his sermon.

(42:09):
He goes, you know what we needaround here is we need some
radicals, right?
And just when he said that, herewe come running around around
there.
Um, Jason, who's now we'rerelated to my marriage now, um,
man tooth, he I remember it waskind of a funny moment because I
look back and uh Jason took thatturn too fast to hit the pew and
knocked the pew over.
He goes rolling, and I'm like,oh no.

(42:33):
But we come back in and the HolyGhost fell, and we have a
revival.
And I guess that's thatsanctuary blew up.
And then somehow we found out,and Jeff Morgan says, I want you
all, let's all go out there.
So we all came out and we allhad, and uh, and that was my
let's go moment, you know.

SPEAKER_07 (42:51):
And uh and did you live for God after that until
you were 30?

SPEAKER_01 (42:55):
Yeah, that was yeah, yeah.
And so um the first time I feltthe anointing was like a week
later, my dad was doing thetestimonies, and we remember
testimony, sir?
Yeah.
So Sunday night, um, but we hadit was a big church, and so he'd
give you the mic, call up, youknow, and give you the mic.
And uh I was praying.
For some reason, I wasn'tpraying in the the uh youth

(43:17):
chapel, I was praying in themen's prayer meeting uh room,
and um I felt like God told me Iwas gonna testify.
So I was like, okay.
So I was trying to like, becauseI used to, I I still don't feel
bad about it.
I used to make fun of people andsome of that, and and like be
loud on purpose, clap whennobody's clapping, like just
just interrupting.
Yeah, yeah.
It's horrible, anyways.
Um, so I'm like, you know, I II'm gonna tell I used to make

(43:40):
fun, but now tonight I'm a onegod apostolic, right?
You know, and um, so I'm leaningup against the uh um the uh the
altar area, and I'm saying, youknow, I'm one god up.
And when I did that, it was likefire, like electricity hit me
from the top of my head to thebottom of my feet.

(44:02):
I I reacted, my bodysubconsciously reacted.
I stepped out and all of asudden I was yelling.
I'm like out in the middle ofeverywhere, and I'm like, wait,
this is crazy.
Yeah, and then and uh I used tothink the preachers yelled on
purpose.
I didn't know that it wasbecause of what they were
feeling.

(44:23):
And um, some of them probablystill do preach uh preach on
purpose on purpose, but butstill, you know, I hear I was.
So I'm like, whoa, this iscrazy.
And then uh the lady after me,who turns out to be an aunt of
my pastor now, uh, was like,whoa, I didn't expect that out
of him, you know.
Um I I want to go back too.

(44:43):
There was some miracles thathappened along the way.
Um, do you know a pastor?
Uh he's a prophet named JeromeBourne.
Um, he came to our church andsaid that people are gonna give
a thousand dollars.
This is obviously a long timeago.
A thousand bucks was a lot, andI didn't have a job.
And I felt like I was gonna givein the middle of all that when I
before, you know, so I did, andGod, I had been praying for

(45:04):
years since I was in Madeira,five years old, praying for a
bulldog.
And one day at school, uh uh oneof my uh uh the parents comes up
and says, Hey, do you still wanta bulldog?
I'm like, Yeah, and he gave mean English bulldog paper.
Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_08 (45:18):
We have those are very expensive, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (45:21):
Back then we had puppies, and I was able to sell
them for like 1500 bucks, athousand bucks, you know.
Yeah, so I was able to give athousand dollars um to the
thing.
So that kind of that allhappened too.
Like that was really cool littlemoments there, but uh so God was
always with me.
But that was, and then um, soafter I testified, um, the guy

(45:41):
that was in charge of chapelgoes, Hey, I want you to preach.
So he had me and Tempel preach.
And I mean, I just prayedthrough, like it wasn't like you
know, but we didn't haveanybody, right?
And um, so I did, and I felt theanointing again, and it was
like, Whoa, this is so cool!Like, I was I it was like so um
that happened, and uh so uhtalking about walk with God.

(46:05):
Um so in the middle of all this,uh I I um brother Jeff Morgan
had me like assist him uhbecause John Davis had left, and
uh so and that was my deal.
I just immediately was just likeGod started opening doors for me
to preach and I startedpreaching and started learning.
Um and I just um fell in lovewith him, really did.

(46:27):
And um, but so I would havethese lows and these highs, and
I would go to the church andpray and pray and pray.
Um I it got to a point where uhSonitrol was the um alarm system
um that they would get and knewme by name because I'd call
them, say, hey, I'm gonna bepraying, I'd be in my dad's
office.

(46:47):
And um, and uh those were themoments that had sustained me,
would hold on to me and stuff.
And we were talking aboutloneliness, and I'd be asking
God and trying to trying towrestle with all this.
And I didn't realize as thatthese lonely times, that this
loneliness, this separated, likefeeling different, um, and then

(47:09):
the lows that you feel and thehighs, that um those were
actually gifts from God.

SPEAKER_08 (47:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (47:15):
Yeah.
And that would drive me to myface if talk to him, you know?

SPEAKER_03 (47:21):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (47:21):
Yeah.
And um, so not fitting in was ablessing.
Not fitting in, not beingnormal, just setting on a
washing machine was a gift.
And the whole time I didn't knowrealize it was a gift.

SPEAKER_08 (47:33):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (47:33):
Um, and even in the that moment I didn't realize it.

SPEAKER_07 (47:37):
Right.
Yeah, after the fact, I think.

SPEAKER_01 (47:39):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (47:40):
God kind of gives understanding to those things.

SPEAKER_01 (47:43):
Yeah, yeah.
And it was because of that, itkind of shot me forward and I
started preaching around andstuff like that.
And there was there was kidsthat made me feel more isolated
because other kids would belike, Hey, how come he's
preaching and treating me alittle bit different?
But they didn't realize thisbecause I'm going through it,
I'm you know f hitting a wall, Icall it, you know what I mean?

(48:06):
Right.
And so I had to stay on my face,I had to pray, I had to fast,
um, I had to do these thingsjust to make it right, right?
Just to walk.
Yeah, and uh um, so uh Godstarted using me.
I started uh preaching out wehad uh um these uh daughter
works, I think.

(48:26):
Um anyways, um so we I'd go andstart preaching for them stuff.
I never preached for money, Ididn't care, like it just it was
my purpose.
And uh I had the the second timewas I was gonna I was gonna
mention was when I that was asolidifying call because I was
like, God, I don't haveanything.
I don't have I don't if I don'tpreach, I don't I don't have it
like I don't have a trade, Idon't have a lot of people.

(48:47):
Nothing to fall back on.
Nothing.
Right.
Yeah.
And uh he and he's like, youknow, I definitely you know, I
I'm I'm I've called you.
And sure enough, the guy uhright uh so it was like you know
two or three witnesses, right?
Uh God will talk to you firstand then confirm it with other
people.
And sure enough, uh the otherguy came up because it doesn't
take a rocket scientist to tellyou you're called a God, you

(49:09):
know, to preach.
And so I was like, Yeah, thatwas just the confirmation that
God had already told me.
So okay, so so I'm all in.
I go uh we're doing I'm doingBible college um through uh a
couple different avenues.
Um, and I was reading, studying,trying to, you know, do my best,
you know.
Right.
And um and I we startedpreaching revivals.

(49:29):
I preached up in Canada, um,preached at senior camp, like a
little they'll they had a littleslot, I'll never forget that.
A couple little slots.
Man, the Holy Ghost moved.
Um, I guess there's some tapesstill out.
But um, so all of this happenedand God's moving.
Um and I'm in the rightdirection, but I'm still lonely.

(49:51):
Yeah, you know, and I'm seeingall my buddies, they're getting
married and and finding, youknow, and I'm like, what's wrong
with me?
You know, what's what's thedeal?
And uh so uh I'll never forgetagain.
I'm in the prayer room at night,and this time I was in the
ladies' prayer room.
Um, and I was praying, and a guynamed Isaac Surrey walks in

(50:13):
because there was he had aprayer room key.
And uh he's like, I just feel totell you that uh God don't worry
about it, God's gonna take careof it.
You just keep going.
I think he told me a story, andhe told me a story of um, I
don't think I know, he told methe story of Verbal Bean, how
that you know, Verbal Bean waspraying, and uh, you know, God
said, you know, don't worryabout it.
And then I'm paraphrasingobviously, but then finally he

(50:37):
got sick and he's like, youknow, I need a wife.
And then that's when he got hiswife.
So he said, just keep prayingand keep studying, keep going,
God will give you a wife.
I'm like, okay, sure.
Well, um I apparently didn'theed it, you know what I mean?
Because I still wanted one,right?
I wanted one, and I'm still allmy buddies are having
girlfriends and engaged, and uhand uh I'm like, man, what's my

(50:58):
deal?
Like, you know, let's go, youknow.
And uh so now I'm 21, I'mlicensed and um to preach.
To preach, yeah.
And uh and I'm like, I I gotthis I'm together.
Well, you know, what's the deal?
So I s there was a a young ladyin my church, and um you know,

(51:18):
we started dating, whatever, andI and and um there was some uh
uh things that you know werealarming or whatever, but uh my
pride now I look back and I sayit was my pride because I didn't
want to get people to think Icould fail and stuff like that.
And um and so um I was preachingat PSR actually um that year,

(51:42):
and uh I thought, you know,we're supposed to get married
and that's what preachers aresupposed to do, right?

SPEAKER_05 (51:47):
Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (51:48):
Yeah, and so uh because of that we rushed the
marriage and um you know Imarried You ignored the flags.
Ignored the flags, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (51:59):
We all do that because we're lonely, right?
Yes, we're lonely trying to fitsomebody into that box, yeah,
yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (52:11):
And uh so um we I got married, and uh that was I
married the wrong person.
Yeah, yeah, that's whathappened.
Um so that happened, and theneverything just slowed down.
Like uh I wasn't preaching asmuch.
Um God was still using me.
Um I was a youth pastor inGustine for a little while, and

(52:33):
uh but I you know and then um II just kinda uh then what so the
I'm in my late twenties now andthings that's when things really
went downhill.
Um the marriage was nobody woulddescribe it as good.
It was horrible actually.

(52:55):
And um, but at the time I didn'tfeel I didn't believe uh in that
I thought I felt like the Bibleuh didn't uh said that you
couldn't divorce.
I'm stuttering because it'sstill a hard topic for people.
Um I do recommend if you ever umI do recommend the book uh
Marriage and Divorce by D Dr.

(53:16):
Enstone Brewer.
Um I discovered that in prison.
Um and I I I I but I eventalking to other people now,
it's still a touchy subject withpeople.

SPEAKER_07 (53:28):
Because you're Christian.

SPEAKER_01 (53:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (53:30):
I know.
I I have those wonderfulChristians that come in for
counseling, but they're marriedto a narcissist suffering abuse.
And you know, but I will say,because I'm not gonna get into
that right now, but but what Iwhat I always tell them is, you
know, the Bible says, husbandslove your wives like Christ

(53:52):
loved the church and died forher.
Like marriage is not just aboutwe can't get divorced.
It's also about what marriage issupposed to look like through
through love and throughforgiveness and through two
people working on arelationship, if it's meant to
mirror our relationship with theLord, right?
And so it my opinion is it takestwo people to be married, and

(54:16):
ultimately, you know, I've beendivorced more times than I like
to say.
And um I I have to just trustthat God forgives that He 100%
does.
And and I I believe that mypastor has helped me a lot.
Yeah, but you know, even if wemake a mistake, there's still

(54:36):
redemption and forgiveness andrestoration.
Yes, you know, because that'swho God is, yes, in spite of
whatever.

SPEAKER_01 (54:46):
Oh man, that's what the book when you um you talk
about that uh Galatians, right?
So it's funny how we um we'retalking about isolation and and
church hurt.
There's a lot of church hurt,right?
The book of Acts 15 is the timethat Galatians is being written.

SPEAKER_07 (55:02):
Oh, that's good.
Denied it.

SPEAKER_01 (55:04):
Yeah, there's a lot of people that misunderstand,
they think that Thessalonians,first, second Thessalonians is
for Paul's first writings.
It's Galatians that is his firstwriting.
And he's writing to formerGreeks, former Romans, right?
This is a Celtic society thatwas moved from France to Turkey.

(55:24):
Okay.
So these people were pagansthrough and through.
They had they did not valuewomen at all.
They still don't.

unknown (55:33):
No.

SPEAKER_01 (55:35):
So, right?
So, yes, uh, there's some if youread some of the Roman, I can't
even say some of the things thatthey said about their value of
what they they would just tradethem away, right?
And so Paul is speaking to theseformer people, he says, Such
were some of you, right?
Right?
So some of these people werehorrendous people at one point

(55:55):
that had gone through severalwomen and divorces and uh
horrible things.
And he says, but God, right, youknow, and and then it's they're
redeemed.
This so if God can redeem thesepagans that we used to cut
people's heads off and use themas mugs, right, you know, right,

(56:15):
yeah, yeah, all things, yes,right.

SPEAKER_07 (56:18):
He redeems all things if we allow him to.

SPEAKER_01 (56:21):
Yes, yeah, that's why Acts 15 was a fight.
Because they're like, how canGod save these people?
They were mad.
Read Acts 15.
They they didn't want, they'relike, no, no, no, no, no, no,
no, no.
They're not they're not saved.
And and Paul's like, no, no, no,no, you are saved.
Relax one step at a time.
Right.
Yeah, and they just they came upwith like three or three laws,

(56:42):
right?
You know, don't, you know, don'tworship idolatry, don't
fornicate, and um uh don't eatsomething that's strangled,
right?
That's been strangled.
Like so they they started withbasic laws just to get them, you
know what I mean?
Right.
But that's that's what that'swhat the church is all about.
It's uh all about redemption.
And if God can save them, he cansave me.
And if God can save me, he cansave anybody.

(57:02):
Yeah, he can save anybody.

SPEAKER_07 (57:04):
So you stayed um because you were because of your
our church culture, right?
I think Christian culture ingeneral is about not getting
divorced, right?

SPEAKER_01 (57:14):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (57:15):
Um and as a preacher, it would be even
harder, right?
Especially in the organization,because then that's your life,
that's your purpose, that's yourcall, that's all the things.

SPEAKER_01 (57:27):
Yes, yeah, yeah, that's that that image, exactly.
Yes, that's it, everything.
So um, yeah, so in the middle ofall that, so she actually, you
know, her story is her story.
She she backslides.
Um, and um, I'm still trying togo to church.
I'm still trying to bring Haley,my my oldest daughter, to
church.
And um I'll never so I'm stillstruggling.

(57:50):
So and then I f um it's it'sbeen it's rocky, really hard,
and it was a struggle every day.
Um and then uh we were about toget divorced.
We were at finally at a pointwhere we're gonna get divorced,
and um there was somereconciliation and uh she gets

(58:13):
pregnant.
And um, so this is another crazypoint in my life.
Um so I'm working as anunderground locator in Yosemite
and uh love Yosemite by the way.
Um so she was losing the baby.
She was losing Riley, who's nowRiley.
Um and I was working almostseven days a week, probably most

(58:34):
l a lot of times seven days aweek, just to pay the bills.
And um she cried she called meon a Friday saying, Hey, I'm
losing the baby, I'm going tothe hospital.
So she goes to the hospital uhor she was bleeding, and and at
the hospital she calls me again,says uh there said the babies I
lost the baby.
Um they're gonna have me come inMonday.
And um and the DNC.

(58:57):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So I um come home from work,whatever, and then Saturday and
Sunday go to work.
And Sunday I call just to checkin on her.
And she uh I was working at aspot and there was uh I I knew
where the cell tower was, so Igo to the cell tower tower and I
call her and she's uh crying,you know, it's uh she's in pain

(59:18):
and all that.
And you know, and and I'm reallyclose to back I'm backsliding at
this time now because uh it waslike um you know, working,
you're not going to church,there's no right, you know,
method to encourage you.

SPEAKER_08 (59:34):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (59:35):
And I was still trying to get Haley involved,
still um still my mom would takeher to church, and and and my
mom was babysitting her andstuff, so I would do her hair
and it was you know, so Haley'smy mom was amazing.
My mom was amazing.
So I go to uh the next part towork and I get on my knees and I

(59:56):
begin to pray, and I say, God,if you will heal and My baby, I
will serve you.
And the Holy Ghost hit me sohard that I knew I knew that He
answered me.
I said, Uh oh.
And so I took a picture of it.
So I still to this day have apicture of the spot where God uh
healed Riley.

(01:00:16):
Wow.
Yeah.
So she goes to the the doctorthe Monday and they're like, We
don't know what happened.
That baby's alive.
You're gonna it's gonna be okay.
Yeah, praise God.
Yeah, super God.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:27):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:28):
Um, so um, so that kind of got me, and I started
really going back to church andagain, you know.

SPEAKER_07 (01:00:34):
And so, real quick, your form of backsliding at this
time of substance, right?
Yeah, get being comforted bysubstance.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:43):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
And um, yeah.
So uh I'm going to church, I'mliving right.
I'm trying to live right rather.
It still is a struggle.
Um, but I was still going, I wasbecause I told God I would.
And so um people can see, right?
Like you could tell because I'mwhen I'm in, I'm all in, right?

(01:01:04):
And when I'm not, when you canyou can see me fading, you know.
And uh I went to uh my dad wasin charge of the ki junior camps
uh in our section at the time.
And so I'd go and Haley wasgoing for with him, you know.
Uh he was the camp director.
And um, so I remember thecouples.
Um I was praying.
Now my mom had cancer at that,started getting cancer at this

(01:01:26):
time.
Um I had cancer.
Oh, I messed up.
I got cancer and God saved meand healed me.
How old were you?
I was in my twenties.
I should actually know this.
Um because it happened before mymom.
Uh I can't remember now.
Um so Haley's twenty-two, so sheit would be twenty years ago.

(01:01:48):
So I was twenty-six.
I was twenty-six.

SPEAKER_08 (01:01:52):
Wow, that's so young.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:54):
Yeah, yeah.
And um there God, um I I theydid the surgery and they said
there was still more.
And it was on oh wow, it'sreally close to this time.
Um, it was right aroundThanksgiving.
Um they said you're gonna haveto come back and we're gonna
have to do radiation.

SPEAKER_07 (01:02:09):
Where was the cancer?
What kind of cancer was it?
It was testicular.
Okay, yeah.

unknown (01:02:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:13):
So um they had to we're gonna do radiation, and
I'm like, oh, all right.
Well, um I'm like, all right.
Well, Brother Bishop Morganagain comes to church and I'm in
the altar and he lays hands onme and he's and he goes, curse
those dead cells.
I curse these death cells, andhe prayed for me, and God healed
me of cancer.

(01:02:33):
Like I didn't have to do that.
Oh, I believe it.
It was so crazy.
Yeah, um Wow.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:02:38):
So that was a And I'm just gonna stop here because
there are miracles of Godhealing cancer.
Yeah.
And um, we saw it blow throughour church, and it's I'm not
gonna say, um, but I I thinkthat that is an area of faith
that people struggle to believeGod for.

(01:03:00):
Yes.
But man, I'm just gonna believeGod for it because it's good to
hear a testimony.
We've heard those testimonieswhere God has healed cancer.
Yeah.
Um, and then there's othertestimonies when that's that's
their trip home, you know, to bewith the Lord, which is where we
all want to be.
Yeah.
But um, it's so good to hear thetestimony of God healing them.

(01:03:25):
Because I believe he does.
I believe there's nothing toohard for him.
Nothing.
And I and you know, whateverwilderness season the church has
been in, I think, I think thechurch has been in a wilderness
season, but I think all that'sdeliberate by God's timing too,
in the earth.
Yes.
Because he's got a purpose inthe earth, yes, and he's got a

(01:03:46):
purpose in the church, and hedoes carry us through, but there
are definite times when he'smoving too in supernatural,
powerful ways, I think, which iswhat we're seeing now.
Absolutely.
I feel like we're seeing thatnow.
And I, you know, I'm not God, Ican't speak for him, but I feel
like timing is God, God's abouttiming.

(01:04:09):
Yes, and whatever's happening,you know.
So, anyways, I feel like we'rein this new season of time with
the Lord um worldwide, you know,especially in the American
church.
And then again in our particularum church culture.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:23):
Yeah, yeah.
He's immutable, right?
If he's done it before, he'sgonna do it again.
Right, he still acts, he's stilllooking to show himself.

SPEAKER_07 (01:04:32):
Yes, yes, so okay, he heals you of cancer, yeah,
and then you're he saves yourchild.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:38):
Yes, so that's kind of that's kept me going, right?
Right, and then my mom getscancer, and she was the
adhesive, she held us alltogether.
She was amazing.
Like I was telling you, shewould I'd go to sleep and she
would play the piano, like youknow, all these old hymns and
stuff like that.
Um, you ever heard of LostSheep?
Um, that one Lost Sheep, shewould sing that one.
I'm like, oh, I love that songstill.

(01:04:59):
But I don't even know if yeah,anyways, because distracted.
But anyway, so um, yes.
And uh so she got it, andbrother, I remember the reason
why I was bringing this camp onecamp up, um, because brother
Copel was praying for me, and Ireally felt like I pushed
through and was so that kind ofsustained me longer, you know.
Yeah, um, the body is important.

(01:05:20):
I'm telling you, you gotta stayconnected to the body because we
are important.
The blood has gotta flow.
It's gotta flow.
Right.

SPEAKER_07 (01:05:27):
And uh so wait, I want to stop there because
that's there's more to that.
That's so powerful.
I've never thought about thebody of Christ in the way you
just described it as ourphysical body, the blood is
life.
Yes, life is in the blood, yes,and so being connected to the

(01:05:49):
body of Christ, life is in thebody because the blood is
flowing.
That's so powerful.
I'm gonna have to unpack thatlater.

SPEAKER_06 (01:05:57):
Yes.

SPEAKER_07 (01:05:58):
Um, because we hear that argument now all the time,
right?
I can watch church online, Idon't need to go.
We know, we know what we getwhen we go, right?
Yes, yes.
Um, but I I hear that frompeople a lot.
I don't need to go, I can justbe at home.
But this is a brand new veinthat I I need to unpack and look
at.
Yeah, because there is somethingwe feel differently being at

(01:06:20):
church.
I know I can worship at home Idid yesterday because my dad is
sick and um it's okay, he's okaytoday.
But um, but you know, we worshipat home if we can't be in church
and we feel the presence of Godthere, but there is something so
different than being in service.

(01:06:41):
Yes, but I love what you saidbecause the blood is flowing
through the body, it'sdifferent.
And we are the body is acongregation.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:50):
Yes.

SPEAKER_07 (01:06:50):
I love that, Michael.
That's good.
Thank you for that littlenugget.
It's God so go on.
So camp.
So yeah, you were saying youwere getting something different
there.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:00):
Yeah, and and and I'll never forget uh he I could
there's another spot where Icould tell you right where I was
sitting, where he was prayingfor me.
And I mean, it was a longprayer.

SPEAKER_07 (01:07:10):
God really had you focus for those moments of
memory so that you can point.
That's why I love journaling somuch.
But but but he really allthrough your life had you
remember when it happened,because you can't argue with
yourself when you when you knowthat you know you can't deny

(01:07:31):
unless you willfully choose tobelieve a lie.
Exactly.
And we some people do do that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:37):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:07:37):
But when you when you love the Lord, you know, we
can't believe that lie.
Good.
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:43):
Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_07 (01:07:44):
Keep going.
I'm having light bulb moments asyou're talking.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:47):
This is where it's at, right?
The blood's flowing, right?
Yeah, yeah.
So um, in the middle of allthis, and you know, that there's
a lot that I'm really not sayingbecause there's people that are
around and they they know, yeah,you know, so I I'm not trying to
hurt anybody.
Sure.
But there was a lot bad, a lotof bad going on, and a lot of
hurt, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lotof hurt.
And I'm still trying to make it,still trying to push.

(01:08:10):
Um, but those moments carried mefurther.
Yeah, they did.
And um in the end, uh I had Ibought a house, I had a job.
Um yeah, trying to figure outbasically I had this moment
finally of just I was I wasworking Sundays again, I wasn't

(01:08:32):
going back to Sunday.
Were you divorced at this time?
I wasn't, and it but the themarriage was was done.
Yeah.
The marriage was for sure done.
And um, but I was still tryingto hold on, she was trying to
make everything work with theLord.
With yeah, in spite of themarriage going on.
Yeah.
And what literally took placewas I stopped I got sick and

(01:08:52):
tired of because I've thoughtover this so much, right?
Yeah, but um I got this job withFree Delay, and I was just I I
had to start working on Sundaysbecause I needed the money
because I had this house that Iwas I finally it took me eight
years to get this house, finallyget this house, and um I had
which feels like success, right?

SPEAKER_07 (01:09:11):
It feels like a blessing, it is a blessing,
yeah.
So you don't wanna negate that,right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:17):
Right, right.
I felt like I still feel like itwas a miracle that I got it,
right?
But um, there was better ways ofhandling it.
Um so uh that's when everythingreally started going.
That was the I was done done.
Um did you make a willful,conscious decision to be done,

(01:09:37):
done, done?
No.
Um it's it what happened wasagain, I stopped going to church
because I was working.
I was still trying.
I was really trying.
And then um it got to um thehome life was just so so
horrible.
And then my parents moved toViselia.
They took the church in Visalia.
That that there's a lot there.
I'm probably moving what theywould call anachronistically.

(01:09:58):
I'm not exactly chronological.
That's okay, but um so but my somy parents are there, she's
definitely dying of cancer.
And um and I the what's it's nota marriage.
Um now because I'm isolated, andmost of my friends are now

(01:10:19):
backslid.
So the people that are my that Ihang out with are backslidden.
So I you know that's where it'sat, right?
So um I'm with them, and they'rethe ones that are taking me in.
They're the ones that you feelthey are, they're they're still
my friends.
They're I love them dearly, andthey're they're still my
friends.
Well, we're calling thosebacksliders home.
Amen.
Amen.

(01:10:40):
So they um they took me in, andand that's when things just kind
of just because I just like, andthen I'll never forget.
Finally, I'm like, you know, I'mand then um I started losing my
house, and so I I'm done.
Like, I was just like, I'm youknow, I had been promised.
You hear I pr rem remembermessages I'd uh of of financial

(01:11:01):
blessings and stuff like that,and I'd given my whole life, and
I still hadn't, I was stillstruggling, still scratching.
And I was like, man, what's thedeal?
Why am I still scratching?
Why am I I'm supposed to beblessed?
And so um I was like, you knowwhat?
I can I know I can do it my way,so I'm gonna do it my way.
And that's when I backslid.
Uh, but it wasn't consciously,it was just it was and then uh

(01:11:23):
because I would Haley stillremembers I'd get my guitar out
and I would sing songs with her,she'd get her little animals and
we'd have church.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:11:30):
And I'm you know So it wasn't a walking away from
God, but it was a um there was aloss of faith somewhere, right?
That God was gonna show up ordeliver or yeah, turn the
situation around.
And I can't imagine what losingyour mom.

(01:11:51):
I mean, were you guys prayingfor a miracle?
I I would imagine right?
That's what we do.
We would expect God to move inthat way.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:59):
Yes, yeah.
And she was an angel, like um uhI never heard her lie, never
heard her cuss, you know.
Uh in fact, the moments that shewas would be angry, like we
would they're comical becauseright, because it's not out of
character, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, but um yeah, uh, and therewas a she I would call her every

(01:12:23):
day.
I would talk to her every day.
And there's some promises thatGod told her that I'm still
holding on to.
Um, she had a dream that uh mygrandfather he was backslidden,
he would come back to God.
And I never, never knew him tobe in church.
And um then my my ex-wife, heshe had a dream that she would

(01:12:45):
get in church, and she actuallydid get back in church when I
was in prison.
Um she's not uh whatever youknow again, that's not yeah, but
um so her those promises, andshe had one more promise of me
being um successful and happy atone point.
This is before I started robbingbanks and all that.
Michael, you robbed a bank.

(01:13:08):
Banks.

SPEAKER_07 (01:13:09):
My word, I think you left that out in the
questionnaire.
But you know what?
Um what wants to come out of mymouth is how exciting is that.
But but it but not not because Ijust it's just amazing God's

(01:13:30):
faithfulness to his children.
So good, you know.
Um, so you took matters intoyour own hands to get rich.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:40):
Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_07 (01:13:41):
I'm sorry about your mom.
Yeah, I'm sorry about your mom.
I I I have both my parentsstill, and um I don't know what
that's gonna be like, but butthat was a vulnerable age and a
vulnerable time for you goingthrough the your marriage and
all the disappointment, I'msure, that you're facing.
Yeah, in addition to losing yourrock and yeah, someone so

(01:14:05):
loving.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:06):
Yeah, she was she would she she got me.
Yeah.
You know, out of all the people,she would she understood me.

SPEAKER_07 (01:14:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:13):
And uh, you know, when you're seen by somebody.
Well, she's your mom.

SPEAKER_07 (01:14:16):
Yes, when you're seen by somebody, it it's
everything.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And uh, I was tired.
I was worn out.
Yeah, and I knew that I I knew Icould rob banks.

SPEAKER_07 (01:14:29):
Why did you know that?
Like, who who thinks of that?

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:32):
So the thing is, um, I grew up not watching TV.
Um, so I read a lot of books.
I lived uh it helped.
I found out um they said um itdoesn't matter.
Um, but reading books would helpme.

SPEAKER_07 (01:14:46):
It does matter.
What did they say?

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:48):
Uh well apparently some psychologists thought I was
I might have been bipolar, mightbe bipolar.

SPEAKER_07 (01:14:53):
Um but and so reading books would help you
focus.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:56):
Yeah, yeah.
And I definitely have ADHD, butthese are all gifts, these are
gifts.

SPEAKER_07 (01:15:00):
Yeah, I believe I believe that, and I because
we'll talk about the bipolarstuff later.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:05):
But yeah, it was definitely their gifts.
And um, so yeah, because in mymanic, I I have to pray, and
then in my depression I have topray.
I la left the song.
I'm so crazy, glad that webrought this up.
When I got married, I was shewouldn't like me going to the
church to pray all night.
But those are moments would holdme, and those were the moments

(01:15:26):
that helped me.

SPEAKER_07 (01:15:27):
Because you learn to cope, yeah.
Because I think substance is theway people cope when they don't
have a different way to cope,right?
Because a lot of people withbipolar um and depression will
say that the drugs kind of levelthem out.
And to be fair, it does, it'sjust the wrong way, and also

(01:15:49):
killing you at the same time,right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
But isn't that like the devil?
He he uh there's always thislittle silver lining that looks
like it's a silver lining, butit it's a death sentence.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:01):
Yeah, it's the fruit, right?
It looks it's desirable to theeye, right?
And and it's great, but it'skilling you at the same time.

SPEAKER_07 (01:16:09):
Um was your drug of choice meth?

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:16:13):
Yeah, because I think crank has the opposite
effect of ADHD, and it's it doesbring you down when you're
manic, it kind of calms.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:22):
Yep, absolutely.
So uh yeah, so that so becauseyou take that away, and that's
that so I definitely I mean,there's a lot of layers because
you know, I should have marriedthe right woman person.
I feel like the right personwould have um been awesome with
me going, right?
Would would have been supportiveof me praying.

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:39):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:39):
Um, there probably should have been communication,
there would have beencommunication, I think.
I don't know, I wasn't there.
I mean, it didn't happen, itdidn't happen, so right.
I can only postulate, but um butalso impatience waiting on God.
Impatience.

SPEAKER_07 (01:16:53):
Yes, yeah, Jason Sisko.
Do you ever listen to him?

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:56):
I I had I heard him preach one time and I loved it.

SPEAKER_07 (01:16:59):
Yeah, well, he has prayer nation, and um anyways, I
remember him from Bible College,he preached at our church, and
it it was right, it was a greatmessage, but I still have my
notes on that from 1996.
96?
Yeah, I think that's the messageI heard.
I'm not kidding.
He was at CLC.
No, he was at our church, hecame to Lighthouse, but okay.

(01:17:20):
Um, but I say that because hetells the story.
I think I think if memoryserves, he went all the way
through Bible college um andfelt very similar, like he
didn't fit, like he didn'tbelong.
Yeah, he was single, and I Iwant to say I don't know if he
found someone his senior year orafter graduating, but God spoke

(01:17:43):
to him through all of that aboutwaiting and explained to him the
loneliness he felt and gave himunderstanding in those areas and
he's talked about it.
Yeah.
Um, anyways, I've I've gleaned alot from him over the years, and
so I'm definitely gonna Yeah,because I feel like and look at

(01:18:05):
his ministry today, that'sprophetic, and and he and he
very much I think he still walksa lonely road, but God has given
him a spouse to kind of be theperson, you know.
Yeah, um, but anyways, go on.
So um, yeah, all the choices,but you know, no matter what,

(01:18:28):
God knew it all was gonnahappen, and uh he's got you.
And it's gonna be exciting tosee what unfolds for you.
Yes, but I want to hear aboutthe drama of being a bank
robber.

SPEAKER_01 (01:18:39):
That's crazy.
So, yeah, so I'll never forget.
Um that never scared you.
Um, no, I I I knew I knew that Icould plan it out.
Um, like I said, I well, I readbooks, right?
So um um some of my heroes waslike Black Bart.
Um are these criminals?
Yeah, okay.

(01:19:00):
And they're real, right?
You know, I would read theirstories, right?
Right.
Um, you know, Jesse James, youknow, who wouldn't who wouldn't
like him, you know.
But uh Doc Holiday actuallywasn't an outlaw, but he would
ride the outlaw trail.
Um you know, these kind ofthings.
Um, so anyway, so the you know,they were the people that I
liked, you know, read theirbooks and thought they were

(01:19:21):
really cool.
A lot of Louie Lamore, but whatkid didn't read Louie Lamore in
the 90s?
Um that was in the UPC.
Um anyways, uh so I read allthese books and I was like,
well, I know I know I could dothis.

SPEAKER_08 (01:19:34):
And um so um Black Barton That is a big level of
confidence.

SPEAKER_07 (01:19:42):
But I would guess there was probably already can I
say I don't want to sayarrogance, but there do you feel
like there was because that's abig stretch from a rational mind
to say, oh, I read this bookabout how they did it in the
1800s and I'm gonna go rob abank.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:20:04):
I mean, have you thought about that?
I'm just trying to get intowhat's happening in your brain
to think that you could havegotten away with it.
So yeah and you probably did fora while, I guess, if you did
multiple.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I um yes.
So they uh they they got me forfour hostile takeovers.
Um but um so that's interestingthat you did that because I've
I've never thought of myself asan intelligent person.
Um I don't think I did.
Um but sometimes it would beperceived by people that way.

SPEAKER_07 (01:20:39):
And um, but I always thought that I was kind of, you
know, you're probably muchsmarter than you gave yourself
credit for.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:45):
Well, I appreciate that.
I don't know.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:20:48):
I think Well, I can tell by the way your brain I I
could tell by the things yousaid, how your brain, you know,
you're you're paying attentionto a lot of details, a lot of
things.
You're picking it from theenvironment, you're reading
people, you're you're taking it.
I mean, I think not every kid isa reader, you know, to be able

(01:21:08):
to read books.
There's so much greatinformation.
I'm just summarizing a littlebit, but probably more, it's
just so natural for you becausethat's how you were, that's how
you're wired.
You probably didn't step backobjectively and look at you know
how it all fits together andwhat God's given you, actually.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:28):
In terms of intelligence and huh, well, I I
think you I thank you.
I don't know what that thinks,but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:21:38):
And I'm not trying to be, you know, blow smoke
either.
I'm just saying I I always lookat I like to understand the
process.
I like to understand what'shappening with our emotions and
our thoughts that's leading usto these steps.
Like at what point does faithbreak down?
At what point do we say, God, Ilove you and I want to live for

(01:22:01):
you, but I'm in need right now,right this moment.
I don't see you coming through.

SPEAKER_06 (01:22:07):
Yes.

SPEAKER_07 (01:22:07):
You know, to where we don't have a way to
understand that, you know.
So I'm just hearing you talk andtrying to see what your process
was and all that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:22:19):
That's great.
I love that because you justtriggered me in a couple areas,
um, in a good way.
Not because you brought backexactly the scenarios, right?
Um, so the scenario with myex-wife, I had um, there was
always a process.
I had done two uh uh back toback two-year not dating, you

(01:22:41):
know.
And so I expected because I didthese things that God would come
through.
Yeah, I did my part.

SPEAKER_07 (01:22:47):
We did all, we checked all the boxes.

SPEAKER_01 (01:22:49):
I did what I was asked for.
Okay, so here what are we doinghere now?
Like, let's, you know, and thenI would hear all these
preachings about if you give,it'll be given back to you, you
know.

SPEAKER_08 (01:22:58):
Pressed down, shaking together, little man
given to your bosom, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:23:01):
Yeah, and I'm like, hey, I I've done my part.
Well, you know, where you at?
Let's let's go, you know.
I and I'm um people uh I'vefound us out later that ADHD
also makes you very black andwhite.

SPEAKER_07 (01:23:13):
Where um I don't but I think our religion, no offense
to our religion, but I think wewere taught black and white.
It's either this or it's this.
Yes.
And I don't think that's anyfault of anything.
I think it's just constructsthat constructs, you know,

(01:23:33):
because it we're either sinningor we're living for God, right?
And even the Bible says, youknow, you're either serving the
enemy or you're serving God.
You can't serve.
There's no neutral ground.
Right.
So it is, it's it's verydifficult to understand that God
is a God of process because weset up our expectations as

(01:23:55):
either or.
Yes, exactly.
And he is not an either-or, he'snot an either-or God.
He's trying to always revealhimself to us in in the fruit of
the spirit, which is patience isone.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:07):
Yes.
If you look at so again, webring back what he's done,
right?
Oh, you could just go to thefirst chapter of the book of
Genesis, right?
Right.
You see that it's layer uponlayer, it's one day added to the
next.
Right.
Um, the rakia is the uhfirmament is what we translate
firmament, right?
But that holds everything in sothat everything he creates later

(01:24:29):
can set in its place.

SPEAKER_06 (01:24:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:31):
You know what I mean?
So um it's always he's alwaysbeen a god of layer upon layer.
Right.
Um, the uh Abraham, when youlook at his story, it's 10
success, well, ten being uh, youknow, I don't know.

SPEAKER_07 (01:24:45):
Yeah, I know.
Yeah, we won't get into all thatright now.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:48):
But bottom line is he let he adds upon adds upon
adds.
Right.
And then the the wilderness, headds upon adds upon adds.

SPEAKER_07 (01:24:54):
David, he added line upon line, precept upon precept,
here, a little, there, a little.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:59):
Yes, yeah.
That's what he does, right?

SPEAKER_07 (01:25:02):
And but when we're kids, I mean it takes, I think
it just it just takes God toreveal those things, right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:25:11):
Um I mean, yeah.
We just have to learn that inour walk with God.
Yes, you know, but we don't knowthat necessarily at the time.
We're just needing God to showup.
And so when he doesn't, we don'thave a way to understand that.
Yeah.
I and the thing But thankfullyhe knows our heart.

SPEAKER_01 (01:25:32):
He does, and and that's the that's funny you said
that because I loved God mywhole life.
So did I through all that?
Yeah, I loved him, and it hurtthat I wasn't, you know, right.
And I almost I felt hurt by him,right?
Right.
And people don't you know wannasay that.

SPEAKER_07 (01:25:46):
Disappointment, yeah.
Because, right, because it's allwe knew of him, like he had to
teach us the rest.

SPEAKER_01 (01:25:52):
Yes, obviously, this is your word, right?
You told me this, I believethis.
So, what's going on, you know?

SPEAKER_07 (01:26:00):
All those seeds, though, Michael, are still gonna
give a harvest.
They've just been dormant.

SPEAKER_01 (01:26:06):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, God has been answering
prayers from me being a kid evennow.
Yeah, he's doing it.
He doesn't not prayer no oneprayer doesn't go by.

SPEAKER_08 (01:26:20):
Right.
I believe that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:26:21):
Yeah, and uh, but yeah, he's a prayer answering
God, he's a good God.
And um, so I I was tired ofbeing tired.
And uh, so I um but the answeris I I did I I I guess that does
take arrogance, right?
And pride.
Um both of them were arroganceand pride with marrying my ex

(01:26:42):
because I I chose her as the Irecognize it because I had it
too, right?

SPEAKER_07 (01:26:46):
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
So I I I don't think we knewthat.
We don't do that on purpose.
It's just a byproduct probablyof our humanity.

SPEAKER_01 (01:26:56):
Yes.
That's not submitted, but yes,yes.
Because that's what it's uh allabout.
It's uh it's a it's the it's ahumble humble yourself under the
mighty hand of God and he willexalt you.
Right.
Um that goes back to again toGenesis.

SPEAKER_07 (01:27:10):
Well, and probably you were trying to fulfill your
calling, right?
Yes.
I got I got a word in 1995, andI was trying to help God for you
know 30 something years, yeah,fulfill his word to me.
You know, I was trying to helpme.
Yeah, but it just led to mistakeafter mistake.
And so um, anyways, he yeah, I Ican I know I say that because uh

(01:27:36):
you believed his word to you.
Yes, and so when it doesn't lineup, it it can be very confusing.

SPEAKER_01 (01:27:43):
Yes, exactly.
Yeah, you're right.
Um, so that's this so yeah, hereI was.
Um my I was losing my house, Ilost my job, I was losing my
job, losing my my marriage.

SPEAKER_07 (01:27:55):
Is that because of drugs?

SPEAKER_01 (01:27:57):
Or or just did you just quit on life?
I I feel like um so my job isbecause I I you know my my um
ADHD and the bipolar kind ofmakes it difficult if you don't
manage it properly.

SPEAKER_03 (01:28:11):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:28:11):
And um I I I there was some mistreatment there too,
but I think because this is youknow, full disclosure, it's
nothing I have nothing againstanybody.
Um but if in the right situationI've been fine.
It would have been okay.
But because uh I it's my faultreally, um uh my ADHD makes it

(01:28:32):
difficult for to do um the thisone part of the route.
Um but the the box routes I wasgreat, no problem.
Um I overcame, I learned figuredit out, you know, and I was
really proud of that.
And then um I was put on anotherroute and and I I turned in
something wrong or whatever.
And um, anyways, that that mademe lose my job.
Okay, made me feel less uh mantoo.

SPEAKER_08 (01:28:55):
Of course, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:28:57):
Um there so uh I was and I was struggling, I was
trying, I really was, and thenuh so that and then I wanted to
start my own business, and thatwas not going through.
So I was like, you know what?
I I know I can rob banks becauseI, you know, I've done it.

SPEAKER_07 (01:29:13):
Had you been fantasizing about that?

SPEAKER_01 (01:29:15):
I've been thinking about it.
I wouldn't I wouldn't use theadjective fantasy because um I
didn't really want to, but Idefinitely put myself in a
situation if I had to, this iswhat I would do.

SPEAKER_06 (01:29:27):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:29:28):
Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_06 (01:29:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:29:29):
Um, maybe maybe the adjective fantasy would be where
it would work.

SPEAKER_07 (01:29:33):
I I just think in my mind I was Yeah, fantasy leads
to a different motive than whatsurvival does.
Yeah, so I understand whatyou're saying.

SPEAKER_01 (01:29:41):
Yeah, yes, okay.

SPEAKER_07 (01:29:42):
And I wonder where that thought came from in the
first place.
Like, where did that seed getplanted about as a teenager?

SPEAKER_01 (01:29:51):
I think.
Because as a teenager, I I gotthese outlaws.
I I didn't realize at the timewhy I was connecting, uh, but
they have the sim.
Emotions that I was strugglingwith.
Some of these guys were had didhave so you were relating to
them.

SPEAKER_07 (01:30:04):
Yes.
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:30:05):
Yes.
I you know.

SPEAKER_07 (01:30:07):
Man, I gotta I need to write that down.
Keep going.
I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 (01:30:12):
Yeah, so you know, we we call it mental health.
I don't like calling it mentalhealth.
These are blessings, these areblocks that God's given us.
But whatever.
And uh but you could see that Icould subconsciously read
through the lines that theseguys we were we were the same
people.
Right.
You know, and a black Bart forsure.
Um his story was out of SanFrancisco.

(01:30:33):
Um he actually he successfullyrobbed stagecoaches for Wells
Fargo against Wells.
At the end he got caught, andthen when he got out, they were
being robbed again.
And so they said, Hey, look, weknow it's you, but we'll we'll
pay you uh hey retirement tostop robbing us.
And he actually started workingfor them and like cap help

(01:30:54):
capture Wow Yeah, it's a prettycrazy story.
But he definitely had the sameloneliness and stuff like that,
you know.
Um his wife and kids were inanother state, I don't remember
where, but he was sending them.

SPEAKER_07 (01:31:06):
So you found a point of relation, yeah, and you saw
yourself in them.

SPEAKER_01 (01:31:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:31:11):
So that gave you some identity.

SPEAKER_01 (01:31:13):
Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 (01:31:15):
Because if it's not gonna be the preacher identity,
which is quickly going down thedrain with the loss of your
marriage, yes, then you needed anew identity.

SPEAKER_01 (01:31:25):
Yes, absolutely, yes, because now I have
something to fit in.
Right.
Yeah, my preaching as apreacher, I I definitely felt I
knew I was in my purpose, andthat was my calling, and that
was what I, you know.
Yeah, absolutely.
That was my ditty thing.
Well, yeah, I liked how youunpacked that.
That was really cool.

SPEAKER_07 (01:31:40):
Identity is such a it I I think that that's at the
core of what's happening from inmost areas, but yeah, um, it's
been so associated with you knowthe LGBTQ world, but it's still
like every little kid isstruggling with identity, and
tons of grown adults arestruggling.

SPEAKER_02 (01:32:01):
Yes, right?

SPEAKER_07 (01:32:02):
So if we answered the identity issue, yeah, it
would alleviate, I think, a lotof the rejection and abandonment
and loneliness.
I mean, it does God's gonna fixthe deepest wounds and all of
that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:32:15):
But yes, he does too.

SPEAKER_07 (01:32:17):
Wow, that is so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 (01:32:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:32:21):
So what so one day you just so were you using
substance at this time as well?
Or were you just focused onfinding a way to I was heavily
drinking, yeah, big time.

SPEAKER_01 (01:32:32):
Um, and then he I didn't even realize how bad it
was till I heard my oldestdaughter talking about it.
Um, but I it was oh I'll tellyou a story.
I mean, it may not be funny, butum my neighbor, uh, he lost his
job.
So uh he he was uh um he fromMexico, so he didn't speak
English.
And um, but we cut wecommunicated and I found out

(01:32:53):
what was wrong with him.
So I was like, hey, well, Istarted having him work on my
house and the property and allthat.
Well, I'm definitely backslidingat the time and robbing banks
already.
So I um take him to Home Depot,we get our stuff, and I stopped.
I get him, hit a case of beer,and I bought me a case of beer
that he liked.
Um, and so anyways, we weredoing this every day.

(01:33:14):
He's like, No more, no mass nomas.
I'm like, why?
It was my wife, she know howthough.
Like, what?
She's very angry at me everyday.
I come home drunk.
I didn't even know.
I was like, really?
I didn't realize it how bad itwas, you know.
Right, right.
Um, but yeah, so I wasdefinitely, it got to a point I

(01:33:35):
was hiding my alcohol at myneighbor's house and things like
that.
Um, because I was trying, Idon't know.
I was just trying to escape, youknow.
Yeah, so um, but yeah, so I'llnever forget uh I was losing the
house.
I needed uh to take care of it.
And uh so I was like, okay.
Um I I planned it out.
I kind of read other bankrobbers, you know, seen looked

(01:33:58):
in the news and stuff like that,how they did it, how the people
got away, and I recognized theway of doing it.
So um I was like, all right, I Iknew this one bank pretty well,
and um so I planned it out anduh uh timed it.
I re went through the kind ofscenario in my head and actually

(01:34:18):
did the whole process, practicedit, and uh did a dry run.
And um it's like okay.

SPEAKER_07 (01:34:24):
And uh I'm looking at his dad who's sitting here
wondering what he's thinkingabout all this.

SPEAKER_01 (01:34:34):
Yeah, so uh well, yeah.
So uh I'll never forget, uh Ihad a well, I I had a bicycle
because nobody knows people on abike.
Um I parked the vehicle in a uhresidential area and uh drove
the bicycle from the vehicle uhthrough the park and then to the

(01:34:54):
the bank.
And uh this was my first one.
And um I timed it out right, uh,tried to anyways, and um went in
and it's like good morning, andthey're like, Good morning.
And I wore disguise because ifyou wear a mask, it's all
immediately, you know, they gotnoticed.
Yeah, yeah.
This one had an armed bank guardoutside, too, by the way.

(01:35:15):
And uh so I uh the there was alady on the phone, I hung up her
phone and said, Okay, this is abank robbery.
And were you armed?
I was, yeah.
And so I pulled out the gun, andthen they, you know, and I
immediately felt bad when theygot quiet and raised their
hands.
I always felt, oh man, this isawful, you know.
So they were walking, I had toldthem where to go, and the the

(01:35:35):
manager, um, I'll never forget,she she was um, she opened the
safe, and I just was feelinghorrible already.

SPEAKER_07 (01:35:44):
And um that sounds so contrary to what someone
would feel, right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:35:50):
Yeah, and I was just like, oh man, this is not cool.
And um, then she dropped thestacks of money and uh she
started she started crying.
She was like, I'm so sorry.
I'm like, whoa, it's okay.
I go, I'm sorry.
Just stand in the corner.
I'm sorry that I hope you knowyou're gonna be okay.
And I'm so sorry for for this.
And I put the money in the and Itold her, I hope you have a

(01:36:10):
better day.
And I left.
Well, I walk out.
Um, there was the arm guard wasright there.
I had the money in the backpackand the guns were in my waist uh
under the hoodie.
And uh I was like, Good morning.
He's like, good morning.
And I walked off, got on thebike and rode off.
Uh uh, but yeah, God protectedme.
I had just robbed an arm guard'sbank and he didn't even know it.

(01:36:30):
But uh yeah, so I get on thebike, ride it, put it in the um,
got in the vehicle and took off.
But I tied I did do the and thatwas a I remember driving and the
cops were coming this way, uh,going to the bank that I just
robbed.
And uh I remember thinking, oh,you know, man, I don't like
this, but I could do it, youknow?

SPEAKER_07 (01:36:51):
I would think though, what an ego boost.
I I know it's the total wrongway, but no, yeah, but that's
what happens, right?
So what went through your mindand and what did you feel?
I would imagine you'd be elated.
I was.
Were you scared?
Were you were I mean, did youall of that?
Yeah.
I'll never forget.
How long before you robbed yoursecond one after the first one?

(01:37:13):
Uh it was about six months.

SPEAKER_01 (01:37:15):
Um incidentally, by accident, I um maybe not by my
accident.
Uh it was accident on my part,maybe not maybe there was some
more previdential areas behindthis, but um, it's it was March
27th, was the day I robbed thatbank.
The reason why I know that isbecause the last bank I robbed
was March 27th the next year.

(01:37:35):
The very same day.
And it happens to be uh he'slike a son to me, he's my my
roommate.
Uh his it's his birthday.
So it's kind of a crazy yeah,connections, yeah, synchronicity
there.
But um, and Haley's birthday, mydaughter's, uh, is the 31st of
so not March, May, May, excuseme, May 27th.

(01:37:58):
Um, incidentally, so uh on thatyou're right.
I did feel like, wow, I I canactually do this.
Like, wow, I I'm actually okay.
And then the thing is you can'ttalk about it, you can't tell
nobody about it.
Right.
You can't, you know, I'd look inthe newspaper to see, oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:38:12):
And I would think it'd be hard to quit when you
get away with something.

SPEAKER_01 (01:38:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was able to pay my bills.
I felt good about that too.
And it was felt it was nice tofinally make money for once in
my life.
And I'm not sure.
Make money.
Right.

SPEAKER_07 (01:38:26):
It's good to have money, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 (01:38:28):
This book.
Yes.
It's good to have money, notmake money.
Um, I let me clarify that.
Little faux pod there.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It felt good to have money.

SPEAKER_07 (01:38:42):
So what how did so you were still drinking during
all this?
Yeah.
So how how long did that go onbefore you got caught?
And how did you get caught?

SPEAKER_01 (01:38:52):
Um, it took another year.
I I um so and I got I was toldon.
So it it would happen, I neededthe money, I'd pay the I'd
finally have to go get it androb another bank and then uh I
would live off of that money,and then um then wait until I
get I could see that the stackswere getting low again.

SPEAKER_07 (01:39:09):
And why didn't you think about robbing a
convenience store or someplacelike that with less risk, not a
federal crime?
Uh well, I think maybe that oh,because they could get the money
back.

SPEAKER_01 (01:39:22):
Yeah, the banks were getting their money back.

SPEAKER_07 (01:39:24):
Well, you are a considerate bank robber.

SPEAKER_01 (01:39:27):
Well, I it's crazy.
I couldn't rob from a normalperson, but I felt like if I
robbed from a bank, at leastthey're getting their money
back.

SPEAKER_07 (01:39:33):
It wasn't a complete loss.

SPEAKER_01 (01:39:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:39:35):
And was uh this is probably TMI, but I'm just
curious sidebar from thebackslider piece.
But um, was it always the sameamount, similar amount?
I don't know if banks have moneyset aside in case they get
robbed.

SPEAKER_01 (01:39:49):
That yeah, yeah, that's that they they'd have a
bag.
Uh it was a bag a lot of times.
Um, and then uh but the averageis about 50 grand, like usually
because I'm just going to thevault.
I'm not hitting the tailors.
I just wanted to grab one quickbecause I was in and out with
one minute.
This was what was my goal.
And um, I if I could, I wouldlove it, ATM if I'm being
honest.
Um, I'm being honest.

(01:40:10):
I'd rather hit the ATM becausethat's 200,000 in a case.
But you really did yourhomework, yeah.
Yeah, I did.
Yeah, okay.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, that's the thing.
And so that's what I helped.
I mean, it didn't help.
It was like what it made merealize that I actually can
succeed.
I can be successful, even thoughit was a wrong success.
Um, but it was something that Iplanned out and that I felt like

(01:40:32):
you had control of it.
I felt out of control, yeah,yeah.
Uh something was said yesterdayin church that it hit me about
the deep being uh Ezekiel's hopein uh 37.
Um, how that the water wasoozing from the temple.
That when people were standingin the shallow, their feet are
still on the ground, they'restill in control.
I didn't have to think aboutthat.
That's good.

(01:40:53):
The deep, you're not in thedoor.
In control.

SPEAKER_07 (01:40:55):
No, you're not.
Yeah.
Bethel sings a song that was mysong for many years about um
being in the deep.
I forget the name of it, butit's a beautiful yeah.
It's about complete surrender.
Surrender.
Yeah.
Yeah.
To God.
That's what it's about.
Yeah.
Because your head's just barelyabove water, but that deep
calleth unto deep.

SPEAKER_02 (01:41:16):
Yes.
That's where it's in.

SPEAKER_07 (01:41:17):
And it and yeah, and you'll never be satisfied with
less.

SPEAKER_02 (01:41:20):
No.

SPEAKER_07 (01:41:21):
Yeah.
No.
So how did you get caught andwhat it's my fourth one?

SPEAKER_01 (01:41:26):
Um, this one in particular, I I broke my rules
on purpose.
I had rules that I set thatsaid, you know, this is what I'm
gonna do, this and that.
And uh so this one I I was done.
I I after talking about it andthinking about it, I think I was
ready to go.
I think I was um likesubconsciously.
Yeah.
Yeah, like I was done.
I was done hiding because Ididn't I had to hide it.

(01:41:46):
I was lying where the money wascoming from.
Um I mean, they're finding outbags of money, you know, like
where's this at?
You know, where did you do?
You know, so it's kind of hardto explain that.
Um so I was really and I wasdone with my life.
And so I subscribe.

SPEAKER_07 (01:42:03):
What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_01 (01:42:04):
I think I think I was done.
I knew that I was gonna getcaught eventually.
And I thought for sure I wasgoing for life because I knew
the rules.
And uh And you weren't botheredby that.
No, I mean, you know, it's it'sit was not cool, right?
Um, but I had a plan first.
I was gonna go to, well, nowwe're talking, um, I was gonna
go to Mexico, from Mexico toMorocco, because Morocco is a um

(01:42:28):
non-extraditable country.
But the problem is I would neverbe able to contact my kids again
because even though Americawon't extradite, they'll pay
contractors to kidnap you.

SPEAKER_07 (01:42:38):
And so um Wow, I am shocked at the research you did.
You were so you thought youwould get caught, but then you'd
skip out on bail.
Yeah, pay bail, and then youwould just leave the country.

SPEAKER_01 (01:42:51):
Yeah, yeah.
But I can't do that.

SPEAKER_07 (01:42:53):
Okay, can I just say it's a little scary how
premeditable that was?

SPEAKER_01 (01:42:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:43:00):
This is a Pentecostal preacher right here,
premeditating is wow.
But I mean, yeah, that that's somuch so much talk about with
that.
Yeah.
But I I'm saying that in um Idon't want to say a good way,
but in a good way in that, youknow, you definitely were

(01:43:23):
equipped, you definitely areequipped.
That only comes from God.
I think that's what I'm saying.
You know, then the enemy justtries to hijack what God gives
us.
But you know, I hope you neverlet him lie to you again that
you're not smart or you're notworthy or you're not able,
because clearly that's a lie.

SPEAKER_01 (01:43:42):
Thank you, Samat.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
Yeah, yeah.

unknown (01:43:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:43:48):
I mean, because that that's some very purposeful,
intentional, yeah, dedicated,yeah, disciplined uh thing you
had going on there.

SPEAKER_01 (01:43:59):
Yeah.
You know.
Yeah.
Uh yeah, it's crazy.
You're it's it's you're sayingthis stuff, and it's actually
you're hitting home because I Ihadn't some I I had some some
work done with psychologists inprison, and they would they've
they touched on it, but seeingit from a Holy Ghost filled
point of view, uh that's whatthe enemy will hijack what you

(01:44:23):
have and turn it for evil.
Right.
You know, I didn't yeah, yeah.
I didn't yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:44:28):
And I'm just gonna say this too.
We have to be very careful whatwe believe about our physical
health and our mental health.
Because once a belief getsgrounded, yeah, it's we we come
into agreement often with theenemy about things that are
never meant to be true for ourlives.

(01:44:50):
And so I I am a therapist, yeah.
Um, but I will say that uh uhprobably all mental health
conditions are spiritual innature, and I'm in the process
of proving, at least doingresearch on that right now.
But um because I, you know, weknow how powerful the belief

(01:45:10):
system is, you know.
So don't be don't get toocomfortable with a bipolar
diagnosis because uh God doesn'tmake mistakes when he makes us.
He doesn't make us with withflaws, he doesn't make all that
stuff is given to us, and eventhe devil used physical health

(01:45:31):
to attack Job.
Yes, and so we know that thedevil can attack us physically,
yes, but that's a that's ademonic attack, and God God is
perfect, God he makes usperfect.
So so, anyways, don't get toocomfortable with that, but I
know that in the short termthere is a need to understand
and to make sense because uh itdoesn't make sense, and and I

(01:45:55):
would say too, in anunredemptive process, yeah, that
yeah, it is probably bipolar,yeah.
But um, our ignorance to all ofthat, and I mean that in a good
way, also prevents us fromallowing God to redeem it and to
completely heal it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:46:15):
Yes, yes, you know, amen.
100%, amen.
Absolutely sorry, I didn't meanto No, it it and when you
brought that up, it ran throughmy mind that uh because these
thoughts, right, they hit you ata young age.
Right.
That's why I was talking to you.
I don't like all these, youknow, some of the things about
teaching teachers, he'll heattacks you when you're a kid.

SPEAKER_07 (01:46:34):
Yes, he does.

SPEAKER_01 (01:46:35):
Just like he he attacks you at the beginning of
your ministry, right?
Yes, Jesus in the wilderness,right?
You know, um Adam and Eve in thegarden, you know.

SPEAKER_07 (01:46:44):
Because all that, what you just said, Jesus and
it's all about identity.
Yeah, and it's so hard for us toembrace the fact that we might
be valuable, yes, and that Godreally could be for us because
you know, because the lies ofthe enemy.
But you're right, it it startswith kids, and I can see um, and

(01:47:07):
this keeps coming up.
I this is the research I'm doingabout intrusive thoughts because
intrusive thoughts are neverjust isolated, there is always
uh other spiritual element, andit begins in childhood.
Yes, when kids start havingnightmares, when they start
feeling like there's somethingin the room at night, when they
feel that you it is very real,and so that's what I was talking

(01:47:32):
about the seed getting planted.
It gets planted, yeah, and so itdoes grow and bears fruit over
time unless we unpluck it.
Yes, and um, anyways, that's mysoapbox.
I'm gonna be quiet.

SPEAKER_01 (01:47:46):
Oh, you're giving me this amazing.

SPEAKER_07 (01:47:47):
I love that you just said that because that confirms
so much of what I have beenseeing in my work with kids.
Yes, and what I believe to betrue is is the the lies that
just you know, or the littlethought, oh, because you know,
they did a study once um in abig old conference, and and the
speaker said, How many here hasever thought about running your

(01:48:08):
car off the overpass?
And almost the whole room ofthousands of people raise their
hands.
No way, it's an intrusivethought.
Yes, and I I have people all thetime, teenagers, kiddos, you
know, they just start driving,and the this is the thought.
I wonder what would happen ifand that seed has already been

(01:48:29):
planted.
So, anyways, it sounds likethat's what happened to you.
And you know, we don't realizetoday I'm grateful.

SPEAKER_02 (01:48:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:48:39):
I did have TV in my home growing up, but we went
through periods of time whenthey didn't, and when they did,
and when they didn't, when theydid.
And now I look, I look back andI think, gosh, we really there
was so much truth about thestandards that was set out back
then.
We couldn't go to movies,couldn't watch TV.

SPEAKER_02 (01:48:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:48:58):
And man, if I was I have grandkids now, but if I was
raising a kid, I wouldn't wantthem to watch TV, I wouldn't
want them to go to movies.
Yeah, I wouldn't, I would wantto shelter and protect them from
all of that because all of it isan introduction.
It's just something that they,you know, maybe they notice it,
maybe they don't, but it they'reall seeds, in my opinion.

(01:49:21):
That could potentially grow ifwe don't catch it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:49:25):
Oh, there's a massive amount of suicide being
it uh in our kids now.

SPEAKER_07 (01:49:29):
Oh, massive, massive.

SPEAKER_01 (01:49:30):
And that's coming from the media, it's it's for
sure.

SPEAKER_07 (01:49:33):
Yeah, so anyone out there, get ready or TV.

SPEAKER_01 (01:49:37):
The UPC had it right the first time.
Just don't read it, read uhblack part.

SPEAKER_07 (01:49:42):
Yeah, yeah, no names of books.
No, but it it is so true.
And you know, when kids areimaginative and when they're
creative and they they think,and you know, um, anyways, it's
so powerful.
But the fact that you said thatis so interesting to me.
Yeah.
Okay, so you get arrested.

(01:50:03):
I guess you didn't get to go onthe run.
What happened?

SPEAKER_01 (01:50:06):
Okay, so um, well, here's what happened.
Um, it was the last bank.
I um broke all my rules, and umI uh I go into the bank and it's
I definitely it was it was afiasco, right?
Um there was too many people inthere.
I usually would would hit it onthe Thursday at 10 30 in the

(01:50:26):
morning because Thursdays isless people um and it's before
the it's right after the uh themorning rush and it's right
before the lunch rush.
So that means it's less rightoverall.
Overall.
And you don't I learned thisfrom Black Bart.

SPEAKER_07 (01:50:40):
You don't want to give anyone out their ideas.

SPEAKER_01 (01:50:43):
Yeah, you don't want citizens involved, right?
You just want the the You wantthe money.
Yeah, that's all I wanted wasthe money.
Yeah.
Well, anyways, there was an oldlady in there, elderly lady, I
shouldn't say old, I wasn'tbeing disrespectful.
Um, but she I was tellingeverybody on the ground, and uh
and she started to go down.
I was like, whoa, you're okay,ma'am.
You see, you can sit down if youwant.
And I went and I got in herchair.

(01:51:03):
And and I was like, man, this isgonna take already things were
just going out of control.
There's too many people.
And uh so I said, you know what,just give me the money right
there, and I and uh I left.
Well, there's again way too manypeople.
So I leave and there and I tooktoo much time.
And uh the cops were the it'scalled the dragnet, they were

(01:51:24):
already um so but because I theway I was dressed, I didn't look
like a bank robber and I wasriding a bike.
I beat that dragnet.
I I looked, I was yeah, itwasn't very far away from the
cop at all.
I talked to him, jumped in thetruck and drove off.
Left the bike there.
Um but they were looking, and Ican I remember I was at a red

(01:51:44):
light and I waited, and it'shard, your heart's beating.
Yeah, and I'm like, Man, Iwanted to run this red light,
but I said, Nope, stay righthere, stay right here.
And all the cops passed me.
And then I just drove on, andthen driving home, I that
street, I went on it a whileback, and I all those memories
came back on me.
I was just like, uh, this is notcool.

(01:52:05):
So, anyway, so um I get home anda friend of mine uh called me
and said, Hey, it looks like umthey're looking for you.
So I um How'd that how'd theyknow?

SPEAKER_07 (01:52:16):
How did your friend know that they were looking for
you?

SPEAKER_01 (01:52:18):
They put me on multi uh Facebook or media or
something.

SPEAKER_07 (01:52:22):
So they knew who you were.

SPEAKER_01 (01:52:23):
Yeah, and because I wasn't wearing a mask, I was
wearing a disguise.
Okay.
So but because they discoveredyour identity.
And if I would have done it, ifI would have followed my rules,
I wouldn't I would well, Iprobably would have been killed
definitely at some point.
Um, but because I was in ourhometown, you know, you're not
supposed to dirty your ownbackyard, right?

(01:52:43):
But I was in my own hometown,people knew who I was, and so
they called in the hotline andsaid, Yeah, I know who he is,
you know.
And uh so I could have left eventhen, but uh all this ran
through my mind.
Uh so you know what if I takeoff, I'll never be able to I
Riley was two years old, Haleywas nine, uh I'll never be able

(01:53:05):
to I wouldn't be able to talk tohim again.

SPEAKER_08 (01:53:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:53:07):
So I'd rather do spend the rest of my life in
prison uh and still be able toat least talk to him.

SPEAKER_07 (01:53:13):
And so I made a conscious choice this day.

SPEAKER_01 (01:53:16):
Yeah, so I did.
And um I hid the gun somewhere,but that gun turned up and I hid
some money somewhere, butanyways, all that got uh
discovered.
All my efforts were foiled.

SPEAKER_03 (01:53:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:53:31):
And uh then they got me at the house.
And um, but I my my neighbor didhave right.
I took Rayleigh uh Riley to myneighbors, so she didn't choose
two, so she didn't experienceyeah.
Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:53:44):
How long did you how much prison time did you serve?

SPEAKER_01 (01:53:47):
So this is a miracle.
So um so it started out becausethey were all hostile takeovers,
there's kidnappings.

SPEAKER_07 (01:53:52):
If if you move yeah, major, major, major, major
felonies.

SPEAKER_01 (01:53:55):
Yeah.
So I was looking at three lifesentences with the state of
California.

SPEAKER_07 (01:53:59):
And um Wow, Michael, that's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 (01:54:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'll never forget they the thejail that they were holding me
in is actually closed nowbecause it's inhumane.
Uh so uh, but while we were init, they were saying it's it's
not livable and they were payinga fine for it.
So I was in an inhumane jail.
Okay, I got and I'm nothyperbolizing at all.
It was like about 120 degrees atone point on the 4th of July.

(01:54:23):
I'll never forget 2011.
And uh the if you could imagine,so this is the jail.
The road right here on this sideof it is where the parade is.
And every year I would take mydaughters to the parade.
Yeah, they were right there atthat parade.
My jail cell was right here onthe top floor.
Uh, I think it's Y or X, um, Ithink it was Y.

(01:54:46):
Or no, Z, it was Z section.
And um, anyways, and they wereright here.
So 120 degrees, they had thisfan blowing, so it was like this
whole major um like a hairblower kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 (01:54:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:55:00):
And I said, Well, this is it.
This is my the rest of my life.
So I can either be horrible forthe rest of my life, or I can be
thankful for what I got and livefor God and love for God.
Love, and I I remember prayingfor a Bible.
Um, I didn't even have a Bible,I was just trying to quote the
scriptures in my mind.

SPEAKER_07 (01:55:16):
How long had you been sentenced yet, or was this
right after your arrest?

SPEAKER_01 (01:55:21):
Yeah, I got arrested in uh July well twice because
they I actually got out um forfor a month on on um on um good
recognizance.
Yeah, recognized recognition.
I can't even speak English,sorry.
But uh they they they put upmoney, bail, and I I was out for
a month.
Um and that was good because Iwas able to be around my mom for

(01:55:44):
one last moment and then uh andbe around my kids for just a
little bit.
Uh I actually came here toVicelia to a wedding.
Uh my cousin got married andthen uh took a train trip back
and that was pretty much it.
And then uh I spent a weekendwith them with my parents, and
uh uh my dad let me borrow hisbook, uh Omar Kaisiam still
remember that.
Um that's a great book, anyways.

(01:56:04):
Um so though these were uhHarold R uh Bell and Lamb,
Harold Lamb.
Anyways, um so those were littlemoments that I had that were you
know good, God moments, right?
Uh so then uh they came back andgot me because then they
realized there was more banksinvolved because they only got
me for one at first and thenthey they got me for some more
banks.
And um they're like, oh, thisguy's gonna be gone for life, so

(01:56:27):
we shouldn't have him out on onum on um mail.
So they put me back, and so nowit's 4th of July and I'm um I'm
looking at uh life, three lifesentences, and that's when I
knew my daughter was that w wasright there.

(01:56:47):
And I said, Okay, God, this isit.
Let's go.
And um there was a messagepreached on a Wednesday night by
uh John Kenonis in the BodestoChurch.
He's an assistant pastor.
And um he wasn't at the time, hewas uh I think he knew the
pastor at the time, but hepreached about on the foundation
of David's greatest failure isthe temple building.
And I remember I took that andreceived that for me.

(01:57:10):
Yeah, yeah.
And uh and later on in prison Icalled him.
I said, Hey, was that do youstill believe that that was for
me?
He goes, Yes, absolutely, Ibelieve that was for you.
Um so then I'm like, okay, anduh I'm slain there and it's
Solomon.

SPEAKER_07 (01:57:29):
Yeah I've looked at that story so many times because
um because Solomon was thegreatest king, the wise that I
mean God turned around andblessed him after yeah, his and
that's so powerful that blessedme long time ago when I first
fell in love with my Bible tosee the love of God show up that

(01:57:52):
way.
And anyways, that I'm gonna He'sawesome.

SPEAKER_01 (01:57:56):
No, no, there's a lot I'd love to touch that
sometime, but um yeah, so I heldon to that promise.
Bishop Morgan had preached amessage about um that God gives
these promises to you.
Um and he in like he held on touh Peter.
Peter didn't was not worriedwhen he was in prison because he
knew that he was gonna livelonger, right?
And so uh he went to sleep.

(01:58:16):
Yeah, he was like he rested.
Yeah, God's got him.
So I'm like, you know what?
God gave me these promises.
I don't think I'm um if if I am,I am, but I don't think I'm
gonna be here for the rest of mylife.
And I said, But anyway, ateither rate, here I am, God.
I give it all to you.
And um, I was in that situationfor about a month, and then they
transferred me to um to thedetention center that's open

(01:58:38):
now.
Um, that was all brand new backthen, and um, well, I think it
was.
Um and anyways, the lot goingon, but I kept holding on, and I
believed it was there, it wasthere in the detention center
that God spoke to me, um, and hetold me that I'm not gonna do
life.
That he's gonna take care of me.
And I said, Okay, all right.
So I've been in praying andpraying and praying, and I was

(01:59:01):
uh 280 pounds.
I got down to like 200.
I lost, I lost 80 pounds.

SPEAKER_07 (01:59:08):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (01:59:09):
And uh they couldn't recognize me in a lineup.
So the feds picked me up.

SPEAKER_07 (01:59:14):
Was that on purpose?

SPEAKER_01 (01:59:15):
I purposely lost weight.
I was exercising and andwouldn't eat bread.
They had good biscuits, by theway.
Side note.
But I but uh yeah, but I Iwouldn't eat them, I'd give them
away, and um, I didn't uh hardlyask for any money of my books,
you know, uh, because I didn'twant to spend it on con I didn't
think I didn't.
Yeah.
So I kept it simple and lost 80pounds in six months and uh

(01:59:37):
exercised.
And um, anyways, the feds pickedme up, and it was the day before
Christmas.
It was uh day before ChristmasEve, it was the 23rd of December
of uh 2011.

SPEAKER_07 (01:59:48):
Because by now you're just picked up by local
law enforcement.
Feds hadn't stepped in yet totake over the case.

SPEAKER_01 (01:59:53):
Yeah.
So I knew I was looking at threelife sentences during the whole
state time.
Right.
Um but now Uh the feds picked meup the day before Christmas Eve.
And they I have all this stuffthat people are giving me.
I had a a white shirt that I uhmy um sister-in-law bought me
and uh she's amazing by the way.
So um we I um they the f FBIpicked me up and I'm changing

(02:00:18):
into some clothes out of theirclothes and I and it's super
quiet.
Oh no, no, I need a backup,backup, backup.
Um in August my mom passes awayand um I was there was a br um
brother Evans would show upevery week to my um to the cell
and we're locked down 23-1.
Um so um he he my door would popand I knew my brother Evans

(02:00:43):
would want me, uh I'd go seehim.
That was my church.
And then um anyways, when my momdied, it was I she died on a
Sunday, and that Monday morningmy de my cell was not supposed
to uh pop, my door was notsupposed to pop open, and it
popped open and I knew that shehad passed away.

SPEAKER_07 (02:01:01):
That was a sign from God.

SPEAKER_01 (02:01:02):
Yeah, yeah.
And uh he came and he saw me,and and and I'll never forget
and uh I'll never forget that.
And it was it was really cool uhto for God to move and give me
somebody and and uh because youknow it's lonely in there.

SPEAKER_08 (02:01:17):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (02:01:18):
And uh have somebody.

SPEAKER_08 (02:01:20):
Which was your Achilles too.

SPEAKER_01 (02:01:21):
Yeah, so it just heightened everything.
Um yeah, I was a weird kid, andso you know, and then uh you
weren't a weird kid, you justhad a great need.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And uh so God took care of meover there.
And I remember I was able totalk to my mom.
My my daughter got the HolyGhost that camp that summer, and

(02:01:45):
uh, she told me Jason West wasone that prayed for her.
And uh, and I remember talkingto my mom right before she died
that Wednesday.
I called her and um and I toldher, I said uh to tell Jesus and
uh King David, I said hi.
She said she would.
So David knows who I am.
Yeah.

(02:02:05):
Well, there you go.
That's a great testimony.
That's cool, huh?

SPEAKER_07 (02:02:11):
That's so funny.
So uh when did you get out?

SPEAKER_01 (02:02:15):
So I so they pick me up that 23rd, and I I told
everybody, Merry Christmas.
They were like, But this isanother miracle.
The FBI pick takes me to myhouse.
They're like, Man, you have allthe stuff.
They go knock on the door, theyget my kid, and Haley is is nine
years old, and Riley's just two,and they get Serena, and they

(02:02:39):
all come out and they give themmy stuff, and I was able to tell
them goodbye.

SPEAKER_07 (02:02:43):
Yeah, wow.
Yeah, what a gift, because thatwas probably not common.

SPEAKER_01 (02:02:48):
So not common.

SPEAKER_07 (02:02:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (02:02:50):
And uh so then they drive me to uh to uh to Fresno,
and uh that's where the Fedfederal holdings are and uh I
remember coming into thecourtroom it's packed because
everybody wants their familymembers to come out for
Christmas and uh the the judgeshe was reading off all my

(02:03:12):
charges and it got up to 150years, and the people are like
making exclamations in thecourtroom, and they're like, Oh
my, you know, and even the judgeis shaking her head and I just
remember going, God, you got me,you got me.
This is gonna be all right, it'sgonna be all right.
And uh sure enough, the firstdeal was 90.
No, the first the what they weretrying to charge me was 90

(02:03:32):
years.
The first deal was 39 years, andthey said, if you don't sign the
39, we're gonna give you 92.
And I was like, Well, there's nodifference between 39 and 92.
Right.
And I remember um the seconddeal was 32 years.
They said it and I said, Nope.
And they're like, my lawyer'slike, what are you talking
about?
You know, this is normal.
This is what you know, and I waslike, No, God gave me told me

(02:03:54):
he's gonna take care of me.
I'm gonna get a better deal.
I'm gonna get a better deal.
God told me.
And um two weeks before trial,um two weeks before trial, um,
our my the prosecutor that wastrying to prosecute me had a
family emergency.
His his son, I actually havenever said this out.
I don't think I've said this outloud.
Maybe I have once.
His son got uh cancer.
So I started praying for his ownson.

SPEAKER_04 (02:04:16):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (02:04:17):
And um we got a new prosecutor, and she didn't
really want to deal with me.
So she gave me a deal for 16years.
This is my third deal.
And I he came That ismiraculous.
It's God.
Yeah, it's God that'smiraculous, absolutely God.
Um, and I found out even greaterbecause once I got in prison, I
seen guys that did like twojobs, and they were doing 40

(02:04:39):
years.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Now one guy, yeah, was in one,he did one and he was like 45
years.

SPEAKER_07 (02:04:45):
He was he Yeah, no, that's the hand of God for sure.

SPEAKER_01 (02:04:49):
100%.
Um, and then uh so uh I sign itand I'm crying.
I I I go over to the to back tomy people that have been around,
you know.
Yeah, and I'm like, I got it for16 years, and everybody's like
cheering, like I scored atouchdown.
I'm like, yes, right, yeah.
But I was going to uh chapel onSundays, and the lady said, You

(02:05:11):
know what?
I believe God's gonna give youeven a better deal.
I gave a testimony, you know.
I said she said, uh, I believeGod's gonna give you a better
deal.
And so I said, All right, and Ibelieve it.
So I I believed even for abetter deal.
But you were at peace.
I was totally at peace.
Yeah, I'm I'm getting out, youknow.
At first I wasn't gonna get out.
Now I'm getting out.
Right.
And I'm getting out of time thatI, you know, it's reasonably a

(02:05:32):
good year, right?
Right.
So um, and at this time, none ofthese federal things have kicked
in yet.
Uh only the crack law kicked inwhile I was in and the the
adjustment of the crack cracklaw.
But they were talking about themeth law being uh chat uh um uh
adjusted, which is two, theycall it the two points law, then
a two points law rather.
And they were talking about umthe this thing was gonna be
called the first step act whereyou're gonna get more time, a

(02:05:54):
halfway house and stuff.
But I'm a violent criminal, sonone of these things are
supposed to apply.
Right.
So um, but I kept believing Godfor them, right?
And people did, ah, that's notgonna happen.
Oh, let me jump back.
So I go to the courtroom, it'smy time.
Um I felt so isolated, so alone.
I was actually, they had me inLerdo Max, not in Fresno,

(02:06:17):
because I think even Fresnopeople come see me, but now I'm
in Lerdo Max, it's hard forpeople to see me.
Um a guy named Monte Abelos,he's a who he's uh with Jesus
now, but amazing man of God.
He came and visited me, and thenhe had other people come and
visit me.
He was he was a Christian,Jewel.
And um, anyways, so may hismemory be blessed.

(02:06:39):
He was a good man.
Um so he uh so I I'm nowisolated and I come out and I'm
in I was always because yeah, itwas a black box, I was always
black boxed.
And um so I'm I'm uh and theychanged my time because my
family shows up and uhapparently my loved ones they

(02:07:03):
filled the courtroom.
Wow.
Yeah.
That was that was pretty cool,you know.

SPEAKER_07 (02:07:09):
And uh Yeah, I guess so many families turn their
back.

SPEAKER_01 (02:07:15):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, some drove up all the wayfrom LA, but like like the
clerks drove all the way fromLA, Ontario area, and then um
and you know, Fresno's far fromModesto, they don't you know
they go to Sacramento, theydon't go to Fresno.

SPEAKER_06 (02:07:29):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (02:07:30):
So um they uh all drove down and I get in there
and uh this is res there's anthis is important, uh, besides
the fact that all of a sudden Ifelt loved.
I walk in and I'm trying to telleverybody I love you, like with
the black box and I'm lookingout there and trying to read it
all in.
It's pretty cool, and I see thisyoung lady um sitting in the
front.
I thought she was a cousin thatgrew up because I just didn't

(02:07:52):
recognize her.
But I tell her I love you, youknow.
And then I go and um it's myturn to talk, and um I I talk
and um I was talking from theheart, and I turned back to tell
my dad, hey, I'm sorry for beinga you know, putting a black um
mark on your name and all that.
And I'm crying, and everybodyelse is crying, and that young

(02:08:12):
lady's crying, so I just don'tthink anything of it.
Well, the judge uh O'Neill,Judge O'Neill, he says, I've
never seen this many bankrobberies and have no victims
like come in and write a letterthat they were um they went to
work the next day.
I I was trying to be polite.
I you know, I I'm sorry ifyou're watching this, I do

(02:08:35):
apologize for robbing your bank.
Um but uh so anyways, long storyshort, I tried to be as you
know, I don't know.
But anyways, I wasn't trying tobe uh hurtful or anything.
Right.
So um he goes, I've never seenthat, and never seen that have I
seen a lot uh a person wherethey're they're going down the
highway and dude just it's likethey did a three sixty.

(02:08:56):
Yeah, exactly.
He's like obviously there's somesubstance abuse, which there
was.
And um he goes, I'm not gonnagive you the 16 that you signed
for, or that there was a 20-yearminimum, and I'm the only one on
my case, so this is total god.

SPEAKER_07 (02:09:09):
There's no no attorney involved.

SPEAKER_01 (02:09:11):
Yeah, well, no the attorney, but it's saying what I
mean by that is um that'sthere's no there's no
accessories, right?
So I'm not snitching on nobody,right?
Right.
Like, and if that's yourtestament, good, I'm not
judging, I'm just saying Right.

SPEAKER_07 (02:09:22):
You you didn't have a deal to make.
I didn't have a deal.

SPEAKER_01 (02:09:24):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Thank you.
Exactly.
That's how I should say it.
Um, so uh 20-year minimum.
He goes, he goes, but I'm notgonna do that, I'm gonna give
you hope.
And he took one more year off.
He gave me 180 months, 15 years.

SPEAKER_04 (02:09:37):
Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (02:09:37):
He goes, I've been up since uh five o'clock or
three o'clock that morning.
And so I'm thankful.
The prosecutor got up and shewas crying.
Wow, that's not right, nothing Icould say to make a prosecutor
cry.
Right, that's God, right?
You know what I mean?
Right.
Turns out that the young ladythat was crying was the
prosecuting assistant.
Oh, wow.
That was so God moved in thatcourtroom.

(02:09:59):
God moved.

SPEAKER_07 (02:10:00):
Well, I imagine all your family was praying too.

SPEAKER_01 (02:10:02):
Oh, 100% their prayers, 100%.
Um, yeah, I mean, uh TirsoGonzalez, I don't know if you
know him.

SPEAKER_07 (02:10:08):
He I'm horrible at nights.

SPEAKER_01 (02:10:10):
He's the pastor in Fresno.
He was there, Mike Simmons, he'sthe family cousins.
He was there.
Um, it was packed, you know.

SPEAKER_07 (02:10:17):
So did you do the 15, Mike?

SPEAKER_01 (02:10:20):
So this is what the the yeah, thank you for telling
me.
So I go to prison and I stillbelieve God was gonna do
something.
Even though I'm a violentcriminal, nothing's supposed to
happen.
Um uh Trump signs this thingcalled the Second Step Act.
That opens the door for allthese programs.
And um Was that when theystarted releasing people from
prison?

SPEAKER_07 (02:10:39):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:10:40):
Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (02:10:40):
Because all of us good conservative Republicans
got really angry about that.

SPEAKER_02 (02:10:45):
But I'm glad that someone like you were able to
get out because of that.

SPEAKER_01 (02:10:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But the programs, see, if youput somebody just a side note,
if from somebody that's been inprison, uh, if you treat
somebody like a dog, they'regonna be a dog when they get
out.

SPEAKER_07 (02:11:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (02:11:02):
If you train somebody to stay in a cage,
they're gonna want to stay inthe cage.

SPEAKER_07 (02:11:06):
Right.
We see that over the recidivismrate.
Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 (02:11:09):
Yeah, I think they gave me a 20% chance of making
it when I got because I've doneso much time that I uh to go
back.
And it's hard.
I'm not gonna lie.
It the first year, it's stillhard, but the first because you
have to associate, right?

SPEAKER_07 (02:11:22):
You have to gang up and become into a game.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (02:11:25):
Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_07 (02:11:27):
Um how much time did you serve?

SPEAKER_01 (02:11:30):
So I did 13 years total.
Um the last year of it, though,was uh 11 and a half months was
uh in Oakland at a halfwayhouse.
Okay.
So um 12 of it was behind bars,and the the last year was 11 and
a half months was out.
It was in um public, but I wouldget locked up every night,
right?
You know, uh at the halfwayhouse.

(02:11:50):
Um the set that second step actis what helped.
I was taking all these programsand all that.
It was a miracle.
The long story of it to cut itshort.
I was supposed to originallycome to Fresno, um but uh I
checked with I was checking withuh my uh counselor or the
secretary, and she goes, No,you're going to San Francisco or

(02:12:11):
Oakland.
I was like, What?
And she goes, Yeah, so I wastransferred to Oakland.
Um, but I also got 11 and a halfmonths.
I was the first violent criminalin from my what I understand in
my prison to get more than sixmonths halfway house.

SPEAKER_05 (02:12:24):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (02:12:24):
God.
So I I did 12 really behindbars, excuse me, I'm so sorry,
on a 15-year sentence.

SPEAKER_07 (02:12:32):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (02:12:32):
A violent criminal.

SPEAKER_07 (02:12:33):
And then you did the rest, and then the the other um
two years was because of theTrump Act.
So no, none for good time, sir.

SPEAKER_01 (02:12:42):
So the good time was that 15%.
And then you oh, oh, that alsoadded 105 days because they
adjusted our time that wasmessed up.
So I got because I did so muchtime, they it was seven days a
year.
They gave me another 105 days.
That put it on for thank you forbringing that up.
Then I um they gave me more, uh,like five more months extra
halfway house.

(02:13:03):
So that put me outside at 12,yeah, even though the last half
of that was still behind, youknow, but I was still able to go
to church.
Right.
That's the other part of themiracle.
Greg, do you know Greg Godwin?
He's an evangelist.

SPEAKER_07 (02:13:14):
I don't know names much.

SPEAKER_01 (02:13:16):
You know what?
My bad, I apologize.
But Greg Godwin gets a hold ofme while I was in the halfway
house.
Um, and and he goes, You need togo to Bishop Morgan's church.
Well, I'm I'm trying to Becausehe's in San Francisco, yeah.
So I'm trying to ninja out ofthis, right?
I'm not still trying to, youknow what I mean?

SPEAKER_07 (02:13:31):
Wait, you're still not trying to be part of UPC,
right?

SPEAKER_01 (02:13:33):
I want to come back to God, right?
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 (02:13:35):
But you wanted to not be a part of the church.

SPEAKER_01 (02:13:38):
Right.
I didn't want I didn't think Ithought it was just gonna be
like right.

SPEAKER_07 (02:13:41):
So I'm like, ah because it's scary, yeah, yeah,
yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (02:13:44):
And I love God.
I served God in prison.
There's there's there's a periodof time prison where I was like,
let's go.
And you know, it was rough, itwas rocky, but I I did.
I studied, I learned um a lot ofthings and started stuff because
I knew at one point I'm gonnacome back to church.
Yeah, so I started um studyingthe Bible, and because people
don't plan to fail, they failthe plan, right?
So I'm like, hey, God's gonnastill use me, He's still got me.

(02:14:05):
So I started studying andpraying and reading and digging,
and um, but I didn't know if itwas gonna be a UPC.
I didn't, I thought it was gonnabe like independent or some, you
know.
Right.
And so I'm in the three-day backthe blackout period, and uh a
guy named Shane Hunt gets a holdof me, and he he and I remember
David Short I was telling youabout he he pastors in Arizona.

(02:14:28):
David Short emails a guy namedJeremy Hogue, who's uh Bishop
Morgan's uh son-in-law.

SPEAKER_07 (02:14:33):
Yes, I buy clothes from his wife.
Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 (02:14:36):
Anyways, yeah, so and then uh so Jeremy and then
okay, so uh Greg Godwin gets ahold of Jeremy, and then Shane
Hunt gets hold of Jeremy.
He says, Jeremy, you need to gosee Mike in uh Oakland.
So he comes and sees me.
I get out uh April 12th, um, andhe sees me the 24th, two weeks
later.
So I never have a chance to.

(02:14:56):
I went to one Baptist church andit was horrible.
Nothing against Baptist church,but it was just the message was
horrible.
Stop saying, I know.
I'm like, uh no, this is not me.
So so uh so Jeremy sees me, hepicks me up.
There's another thing.
You know how uh ladies uh haveuh this hope chest for when they
get married, you know.
I when I was in prison, I wasgonna get out, so I had this

(02:15:18):
little hope chest, you know?
Wow, and um, there's a a brandthat's not a very well-known
brand, but I I like it.
And uh he nobody really knowsabout it unless you like
lumberjacks or something, youknow.
So um it he's wearing one ofthose shirts.
Oh.
And uh I'm like, no way.
I'm like, you like that?
And he goes, How do you know?
Like we're both like, there's noway.

(02:15:40):
Okay, so he picks me up in histruck.
We drive around to um MacArthurand to Adams Point right here.
He goes, I was praying for youthis morning.
He goes, and God doesn'tnormally speak to me this
quickly.
He goes, but God told meSamson's hair began to grow.
Does that mean anything to you?
And I just begin to ball becausefor the last two years, I was

(02:16:01):
mad, angry with God.
Like, God, what's the deal?
I never had a choice.
I never had a choice.
I was always gonna be apreacher.
There was no, I didn't have anoption from birth.

SPEAKER_07 (02:16:13):
And uh and God brought up Oh, so he was
speaking to you about Samson'scall on his life.

SPEAKER_01 (02:16:19):
Oh Samson, so I'd been arguing with God about
Samson.
And I said, Well, Samson neverhad a choice, but then God had
brought up.
I had never told anybody.
God brought up Samuel as well.
The two men that were born had aNazarite vow from birth had no
choice, right?
But one embraced it, the otherone fought it.

SPEAKER_07 (02:16:36):
Right.
And so Well, no, the other onedidn't fight it, fight it, he
fell.

SPEAKER_01 (02:16:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (02:16:44):
A woman.

SPEAKER_01 (02:16:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (02:16:46):
I mean, I know there's a lot to Samson, but I
agree.
But he was he was weak in thebecause he he immediately
disobeyed his parents when hewanted somebody that was from
the Philistine camp.

SPEAKER_01 (02:16:59):
Yeah, he was 40 years old when he when he did
when that happened with Delilah.
So, and he had already been asuccessful judge.
So he wasn't even a kid when hedid this.
But he never fully this what Imean by fighting is he's he
never fully embraced it.
Like he was always Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_07 (02:17:15):
So I'm not trying to argue with you, but I try to
embrace it.
I hope that didn't come acrossthat.

SPEAKER_01 (02:17:18):
No, no, no.
I was um trying to clarify whereso it kind of plots out.
I was in my 30s, yeah, he's inhis 40s.
Um, there was a time there was aperiod where Samson did embrace
it, right?
And then there's a time where hedidn't, like where he's like, I
want to do it my way.
That kind of thing.

SPEAKER_07 (02:17:36):
Right.
I think he probably took it forgranted.

SPEAKER_01 (02:17:38):
He definitely I feel like that way, absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 (02:17:40):
Because it just was easy for him.
God just had always anointedhim.

SPEAKER_01 (02:17:44):
Yes, you know, yes, he took his calling and his
separation and his covenant forgranted.
Yeah.
Yep, his anointing.
Yeah, and uh he was different,and then that was the other part
of it was I had to livedifferent.
I didn't, I didn't have achoice.
I had to be different.

SPEAKER_07 (02:17:58):
Correct.
There is no uh that was part ofthe word that was given to me
in '95.
And the preacher said he called,I was on the back row, called me
out, tell you everything.
But he said, God doesn'tbargain.
If you will live for him withall of your heart, yes, yes, and
and he says, and God doesn'tbargain, yes, he will do blah,

(02:18:21):
blah, blah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:18:21):
Yes.

SPEAKER_07 (02:18:22):
And you know, I didn't, I can honestly say now I
do.

SPEAKER_02 (02:18:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (02:18:28):
But you know, we don't, I think we don't know
that we're not.

SPEAKER_02 (02:18:32):
Right.

SPEAKER_07 (02:18:33):
But God knows because he sees.
And I think so much of what he'sexposing in all of us as we walk
out this journey is he'srevealing what's been buried in
our heart that we didn't evenknow was buried.
Yes.
But he did, yes, and he's tryingto expose it so that we could
give it to him.
Yes, and that it doesn't hold usbecause you didn't know the

(02:18:54):
seeds that were gonna crop up inyour life.
I didn't know the seeds, but Godknew the seeds.

SPEAKER_01 (02:19:00):
He knew.

SPEAKER_07 (02:19:01):
And so that that separation and um you're right,
you're dead on, yes.

SPEAKER_01 (02:19:07):
Yeah, yeah, and that's that's the height.
That was it, right?
God called me to this path, hecalled me to this dedication.

SPEAKER_07 (02:19:13):
There's not gonna be because it has to do with the
call.

SPEAKER_01 (02:19:19):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yes, but isn't it blessed?

SPEAKER_08 (02:19:24):
It's worth it.

SPEAKER_01 (02:19:26):
It's worth it, it's worth it.
It's worth it.
Yes, there's an anointing thatcomes with that.

SPEAKER_07 (02:19:33):
That's a hard road, but it's not hard, I think, when
you understand and you can just,you know, I think about um even
if, you know, even if this isall there is, even if God,
there's you know, all the thingsI used to think, and I think God
removes that too.

(02:19:53):
Like all the desires that I usedto have that was about that
prophecy.
Yes, like I'm okay.
Yes, if none of them everhappen, I'm so okay because of
what we get to have with God.
Yes, you know, there's nothinglike that relationship.

SPEAKER_01 (02:20:09):
Nothing, nothing, nothing.
You can't, but there's now novalue.
No, you can't pay anything.
Um I and because you're livingthis way, you don't realize that
it's different.
You don't even know.
Like, I didn't, I just thoughtthat everybody experienced it.
I didn't I just assumed I didn'tknow you only have yourself to
judge by.

(02:20:29):
Yeah, yeah.
So I saw you're right, and it isa choice.
You're right.
Let me clarify that.
He does give us the choice.
This is what I was fighting, butthis is a choice.
Because if you look at theblessings of God, especially in
Deuteronomy, he goes, if rightyou obey, right, you know, if
and so then I will.

SPEAKER_07 (02:20:46):
But it doesn't go against our will.

SPEAKER_01 (02:20:47):
He doesn't, he gives it to you to choose.
Yes, and so if if you choose toserve me, if you choose to live,
this is the way I'm a path Iwant you to live.
If you're obedient to that, I'mgonna bless you.
And and Samuel, and look at soSamuel says, okay, and then he
embraces it.
He embraces the calling, he doesit, and becomes the greatest
judge of Israel.

(02:21:08):
Okay, and his word never hitsthe ground, right?
Never, never.
So you see somebody thatembraces it and you see somebody
that fights it, that struggleswith it, you know.
And that was Samuel, Samsonrather.
And that's when he said,Samson's hair, I've been
involved because I'm sittingthere and I begin to I just
broke and prayed through allover again right there.
Because I knew that I gotta Ichoose.

(02:21:30):
I can either when Samson saidokay and embraced it, that's
when he made the greatest right,right.

SPEAKER_08 (02:21:35):
Of all time.

SPEAKER_07 (02:21:48):
And even though it's normal for other people to do,
it's not it's so to me, this iswhat he taught me.
That's a consecration, yeah.
Because there are things that umis not okay, yeah.
But it it's not a sin issue, andit's not a uh a theological

(02:22:11):
issue, it's a consecrationissue.

SPEAKER_01 (02:22:14):
And and yeah, isn't that beautiful when God it's
crazy because there's things I'mlooking around, I'm like, oh,
it's not bad for them, andeverybody will be they'll be but
it's so easy when you're in lovewith him.

SPEAKER_07 (02:22:27):
Yes, that's you know, because you love him, you
want to please him.
Like I don't ever, ever, everwant to hurt him.
Oh you know, yeah, yeah.
It's love, I think.

SPEAKER_03 (02:22:40):
It's absolutely love.

SPEAKER_07 (02:22:41):
And there is, I don't know if you've experienced
this yet, but I certainly have.
I don't have the lonelinessanymore.
God is totally healed.
I I see a need, yeah, you know,but it isn't for the same
reasons that it once was, youknow.
And that's because God fills thevoid.

(02:23:04):
Everything else is gonna be, youknow, icing on the cake.
It's just an added little giftof his kindness and his goodness
towards us.
But um, but I I don't I don'tknow if you've experienced that
yet where the loneliness isgone.
But he will feel that.

SPEAKER_01 (02:23:24):
I it's it's um so how it's been right now
personally has been um So you'vebeen out real quick for how many
so technically uh two years kindof um but because um that year
in the halfway house I was I wasout really I was behind bars,
but I was out because I was ableto go to work.
Right.
And and that was a miracle.
I got a job, but I it was 2023.

SPEAKER_07 (02:23:47):
So two years.
So have you were you at ahalfway house for all of 2023?
Yes.
So you've been free for a yearto where you can but you still
have to stay within a yeah, mycomprobation officer knows that
I'm here.

SPEAKER_01 (02:24:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (02:24:02):
And I I gonna, I'm sorry, I'll probably have to
have you back again becausethere's so many layers that are
really important to talk to talkabout.
Um so what where are you now interms of I know there's still a
lot more healing God's gonna do,right?

(02:24:22):
In all of us, but but whatwhat's he speaking to you about
now?

SPEAKER_01 (02:24:27):
Oh wow.
I mean, you've actually beenlike st uh walking all over it,
right?
It's been amazing because um I'mpreaching again.

SPEAKER_07 (02:24:35):
Wow, crazy.
Well, because what a testimony.

SPEAKER_01 (02:24:38):
Oh, he's amazing, God.
He's so he's so good.
He's so good.
Both of my daughters live forGod.

SPEAKER_07 (02:24:44):
Wow, how old is Riley?

SPEAKER_01 (02:24:46):
Riley's uh 16, she turns 17 in January, and then
you're seven years older, right?

SPEAKER_07 (02:24:53):
Yes, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 (02:24:54):
Okay, she's 22.
Yes, and um wonderful, yeah.
It's amazing what God's doing.

SPEAKER_07 (02:24:59):
So are you staying in Oakland because of probation
stuff right now, or or will youeventually live closer to where
your family is?

SPEAKER_01 (02:25:07):
Oh so um I God called me there.
Okay, I called me the bay.
So you feel to stay okay?
Even as a young man, I wastrying to get out there to start
a church.
Um I I had felt that call.
And God never like it's cool howhe works it all out.
Like, um, and I even even inprison, I thought, you know, I'm
probably gonna be going to theBay Area at some point and
start, you know, starting achurch.

SPEAKER_07 (02:25:28):
Is Brother Morgan still there?
Is he okay?

SPEAKER_01 (02:25:30):
He's the he he he's the bishop, he pastors uh uh San
Francisco.

SPEAKER_07 (02:25:34):
Because I know he's in other places too, so I didn't
know where his home office was.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (02:25:39):
Okay, and I was just there yesterday, actually.
Okay.
Um, but uh so I go to churchtwice on Sunday.
I go to the one uh Jeremy's inEl Cerrito, and then he goes, we
all go back into the home churchin San Francisco.
Okay, and uh I love it.

SPEAKER_07 (02:25:52):
So if I'm hearing you right, God never changed his
mind about your call to preach.
Oh and so he walked you throughall of the learning the lessons,
right?
Yes to bring you back to thispoint.

SPEAKER_01 (02:26:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you nailed it when uh youknow the patience, the waiting.
And um, there's a story withSamuel.
Uh it's called uh we call itEbony Ebenezer, but it's Ebon
Haetzer, it's the rock of ourhelp.
And um if the battle happened inthe with the Philistines where
uh the they brought the Ark ofthe Covenant out and they lost,

(02:26:32):
and the Philistines took theArk.
Um then of course.
I remember all that, yeah.
So they get the Ark back.
Now San uh Samuel's in charge.
He takes them in, they fight thesame spot.
This time they win because Godis their help, God is their
rock, they're obedient.

SPEAKER_07 (02:26:51):
Everything comes full circle, full circle,
everything comes full circle.

SPEAKER_01 (02:26:54):
And here I am again, back, you know, and you were
talking about the loneliness.
Um, it's healing for the firsttime in my life.
Life.

SPEAKER_07 (02:27:02):
Well, Michael, don't you feel you have a better
understanding of who you are?

SPEAKER_01 (02:27:06):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Yeah, yeah, definitely,definitely.
Um, and it's cool, like it'slike um, I call it a lacuna.
Lacuna is like an archaeologicalterm where it's a missing piece,
right?
So it's not just a gap, there'sactually a piece that's missing
from it.
And so I have this this thismissing piece, this lacuna right
here.
And I would I even in prison,I'm like, God, I don't

(02:27:27):
understand this.
Um your holy ghost is supposedto.
You said your word in your wordthat if you drink of your water,
you'll never thirst again.
But I'm thirsty and I have yourholy ghost.
I I have this loneliness, I havethis desire to have a person in
my life.

SPEAKER_07 (02:27:42):
That's what it is.
If it was filled, you wouldn'tkeep praying.
Yeah, right?
And it may, maybe it remains foryou to continue to intercede for
that until it's filled.
Yes.
Because prayer, God worksthrough prayer.
He 100% works through prayer.
And and when we do have adesire, it becomes a a burden,

(02:28:02):
right?
That you have to burst in thespirit.

SPEAKER_01 (02:28:06):
You're it's you're absolutely right.
Is here's the thing.

Merle Ewing said this (02:28:09):
like, I'll never forget, he said, you
can't um something that's full,right?
If you put a uh a water hose andyou turn it on, and uh you put a
cap on the end of that waterhose, it's technically not full.
There's an air, there's a bubbleof air in it.
The only time that water hose iscompletely full is when you take
off the cap and the water'sflowing through it.

(02:28:33):
So the only way I can heal,right?
Where and it's been healing,it's getting smaller and smaller
and smaller is by God using meand being letting his spirit
flow through me.
Me being a part of the body,letting the Holy Ghost flow
through me.
That's where the healing in thatwater I'm full.
Notice what the woman did at thewell.
She said, if you drink up mywater, you'll never thirst

(02:28:54):
again.
She goes and gets people andbrings them back.
She became used immediately.
The water, the water is flowingthrough her.
Right.
That's where it's full.
That's where it's at.
It's being a part of each other.
And like, you know, we we blowup the whole, you know, fivefold
ministry and and all that.
We're servants.
Right.
It's all of it's all right, it'sonly for the body.

SPEAKER_07 (02:29:12):
Yeah, the the gifts are the gifts are always about
the body.
It's not about to be somebody,it's not for a title.
No.
It's and I think it's I thinkit's more about intimacy with
God because when we get to hearhim, when we get to intercede
for someone because he revealssomething, it's all out of love.

(02:29:34):
Yes.
And I think you just have toexperience that, yeah, you know,
for it, for that, for you to aperson to know that, right?
It it it's all flowing from aplace of love, which is what the
Bible says, but it's sodifferent when you understand it
from experience versus whatwe're told.
You know, and we do idolize onwell, in our celebrity, yeah.

(02:29:57):
We we we grew up that way, and IAgain, I don't think it's
anyone's fault.
I just think it was the culture.

SPEAKER_01 (02:30:02):
But osmosis.

SPEAKER_07 (02:30:04):
But it's changing, I think.

SPEAKER_01 (02:30:06):
Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_07 (02:30:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (02:30:07):
I and I this w where I've been learning is I'm
healing, right?
And and I'm back to the samebattles that I had before.
Right.

SPEAKER_07 (02:30:14):
Because you gotta overcome them last time.
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (02:30:17):
But I don't have a choice, right?
Like this is right.
I go back to prison if thisdoesn't happen.
Right.
You know?
Um, so I'm this is where I'm at.
And God has brought me a mightylong way.
And I don't, I'm, I'm, I got twodaughters, I got my dad, I got,
you know, a church that lovesme.
They're having me preach.
Like, it's crazy.
I'm preaching out.
Like, this is not, you know,right.

(02:30:38):
The the UPC has brought me backin, wrapped arms around me.
Like I went in and they're Iwent, I was so scared.
I went to um youth conventionlike a couple years ago, and
they came out and hugged me.

SPEAKER_03 (02:30:49):
Like, like what?

SPEAKER_01 (02:30:50):
Like, you know, yeah.
Um, but God is is definitely I'mlearning the the whole waiting,
the patient.
Um, but it's all about him andit's learning to it's a it's a
cooperation.
Uh Romans 8 28.
Um, all things work.
He's actually quoting out of theShema and out of Isaiah, but

(02:31:11):
because you were talking aboutif love God with all your heart,
right?
When you love God with all yourheart and you're following his
purpose, he'll take even yourpain and all your suffering and
use that as a gift.
Right.

SPEAKER_08 (02:31:22):
But I believe it.
I've seen him, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (02:31:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Kim Haney wrote a book years agocalled Um God's Got a Waiting
Room.
And it's it's excellent becausewe all walk through that season
where we wait, you know, and I'm30 years.
So I I've said this, I'm 30years.
I prayed back through 30 yearsago.

(02:31:46):
Awesome.
But um I s I stayed innon-denominational churches, I
healed out there.
But anyways, I've been back inUPC for well, since my cousin
took over the church, probablyfive years, but you know, but
that's been a journey too.
But um I learned through thatbook that I just have to take

(02:32:07):
all my expectations off thetable.
Yes.
But God has answered all of mychildhood questions and prayers,
and the the prayers that didn'tget answered long ago that broke
my heart.
Yes.
He gave me understanding in him,he gave me answers for them, and
he never had to do that for me,but he did because he's good.

(02:32:29):
He's a good person.
And he wants he wanted me toknow, you know, the reasons why
those prayers didn't getanswered.
But you know, it doesn't matternow, but it I was gonna serve
him anyways, but he loved meenough to give me answers to
just comfort me in somethingthat I was gonna be okay with no
matter what.

(02:32:50):
But he's just good.
I mean, I'm excited.
This is still pretty fresh andnew for you.

SPEAKER_02 (02:32:56):
So cool.

SPEAKER_07 (02:32:57):
But what a miracle! So many.
So and you know, I think,Michael, there are so many
backsliders out there who Godhas called, and they got tripped
up because of all the samereasons we did, yes, not

(02:33:17):
fitting, being lonely, trying tofind a place, yes, because
ultimately they don't know theiridentity and who God God's got
something so much more andbigger for them.
But you know what?
Your story and the stories ofothers who've been on the
podcast is gonna help.
Oh because you know, not justbecause God redeemed you, but

(02:33:42):
because there was there was acall long before there was ever
a falling away.
Yes, yes, and um, and I thinkmany, many backsliders share
that identity piece, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
So I I gotta wrap up because mysorry.
No, no, I listen.

(02:34:03):
My pastor had told me I I cantalk and talk and talk.
And your story is rich on somany levels.
And I I want to dig into all thepieces.
Okay.
Um, because I feel like there'sso many jewels there, you know,
just how the enemy comes againstus, yes, what he tells us, what

(02:34:23):
what is real to our ownemotional struggle as a human,
how God wired us.
Yeah.
And then you add sensitivity ontop of all that, and it just,
you know, it's just the perfectstorm.
But um, I'm grateful that you'rehere today.

SPEAKER_01 (02:34:39):
Thank you for letting me come.

SPEAKER_07 (02:34:40):
You know, I'm so grateful.
Um, I always end with the sametwo questions.

SPEAKER_01 (02:34:45):
Okay.

SPEAKER_07 (02:34:45):
Um, I want to start backwards with you today on
that.
So um, your dad is here with ustoday and has stayed in ministry
throughout all of this, which Iimagine um I want to have you on
someday to tell your story.
Um, but what do you say to theparents?

(02:35:07):
Because I think you're fortunatenot all parents would stick
around.
What do you say to the parentwho had a kid who has a kid out
there like you were?

SPEAKER_01 (02:35:16):
Yeah.
You know, um, truthfully, mydad, I'm not saying this because
he's sitting here, um but uh hedid the right thing.
Um he just loved me.

SPEAKER_07 (02:35:27):
It's really hard to do when when we're horrific
humans.
Yeah.
It's really hard to love beyondbad um behavior.
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (02:35:39):
And when you're especially in this situation
where me, where he had to spendI don't even know how much money
he had to say to take care of mykids, take care of me while I
was in prison, it's a sacrifice.

SPEAKER_04 (02:35:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (02:35:50):
But if you just keep loving them, just love them.
Uh fruit, when it hits theground, it actually turns the
ground into fertile ground soil.
So the fruit of your spirit isnot going uh unnoticed.
It's actually resoiling thatground that you're with your
kids.
And if you just keep lovingthem, being patient with them,
you're gonna turn that soil intofertile ground.

SPEAKER_07 (02:36:13):
And then what do you say to the backslider who hasn't
come back yet?
And particularly to the onethat's afraid to go back to UPC
church, like you were, like Iwas, like every UPC backslider
kid I've talked to is so afraidto go back to our church
environment.
What do you say to them?

SPEAKER_01 (02:36:33):
Well, the first thing is a whole lot different
than what it was growing up.
It's a whole it's not the same.
And um I think you need to comehome.
Yeah.
You need to come home.
Okay.
And if I know you, I love you.
It's just letting you know.
I love you, and I'm praying foryou.
This is home.
There's nothing like being home.

(02:36:53):
There's nothing like thepresence of God.
Nothing.
And like you said, it's worthit.
It's worth it.
There's nothing in this worldthat's not worth that's worth
trading this in for.
Nothing.
Yeah, it's all empty.
It's all empty.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (02:37:08):
Well, I um I think we're running out of memory on
the camera.
So sorry.
Oh, no, don't apologize.
I mean, I I talked probably asmuch as you.
So uh Michael, it what apleasure and what what a
redemption story that you have.
And um man, if anybody doubts ifGod is still doing miracles, He

(02:37:31):
is still doing miracles.
And I believe there's more tocome, greater things than this,
and many, many more miracles tocome.
So um, as we close, if you knowBackslider, if you're familiar
with Michael Torres and knew himwhen he was a preacher back in
the day, will you please sharehis testimony with with others

(02:37:54):
and share our uh share our ourchannel and please like and
subscribe and if God leads youto donate, that helps too.
Um but pray for us because um wejust really want to reach the
backslider.
Yes.
So God bless you all, and uhthanks for being here and thank
you so much.

(02:38:17):
Bye.

SPEAKER_00 (02:38:18):
We are so glad you joined us.
If you have a story ofredemption or have worn the
label of a backslider, we wouldlove to hear from you.
If you'd like to support ourministry, your donation will be
tax deductible.
Visit our website at theredeemed backslider.org.
We hope you will tune in for ournext episode.

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Preacher, Prisoner, Surrendered - TRB #35 - Michael Torres

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Preacher, Prisoner, Surrendered - TRB #35 - Michael Torres