Returning to Wholeness with Kelly Ventura, TRB #21 Part 3 of 3

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider with your
host, kathy Chastain.
Christian-based psychotherapistand Redeemed Backslider.
This podcast is dedicated tothose who have wandered but are
ready to return to thelife-changing power of grace and
the freedom found in Jesus.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider.
I'm your host, kathy Chastain.
I'm a Christian-basedpsychotherapist and I'm also a
Redeemed Backslider.
With me in the studio today forpart three of our series how
Trauma Affects Our View with Godis my colleague, kelly Ventura.
So, kelly, thanks for comingback three separate times.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
Yeah, different shirt this time.
New shirt, color blue, one ofthe only blue shirts I have in
my closet.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Oh good, so we'll recap for everybody today, and
why don't you take us throughthe recap of where we've been
episode one, episode two, andthen we'll kick off today.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
Episode one, we did talk about kind of the overview
of God's design for us as humans.
We talked about the flesh, theemotions, the mind and the
spirit, how all of that isbrought to God and how it kind
of not kind of but it doesreflect his design for us, right

(01:27):
.
Perfection and purity, right andpurpose.
Yeah, we reviewed some of thescriptures, kind of talked about
that, about Thessalonians,talking about making your whole
heart, spirit and body to bekept blameless.
Jesus grew in wisdom.
We talked about love the Lord,your God, with all your heart,
soul, mind and strength.

(01:47):
So we talked about kind ofthose four aspects also.
We did kind of define also the.
I think this was my part, so weprobably kind of not really
defined it super well, but wedid talk about the flesh, so the
body, which is kind of thatvehicle that carries us through
right our life and how we engagewith the world around us.

(02:09):
So it's our physical body whichmine is tired this morning, so
I'm sure everybody else canrelate but we talked about our
emotions, which is the seat ofour feelings, whether that be
joy, grief, fear.
We talked about anger, wetalked about anxiety, we talked
about a lot of different thingswhen we touched on that Also,

(02:30):
the mind, which is kind of theseat of our, or the realm of our
thoughts, our beliefs, ourreasoning, our identity, and we
also talked about how we canrenew the mind.
We talked about the scripturein Romans 12 and two Um, and
then we talked about the spirit,which sometimes, you know, uh,

(02:53):
it kind of gets a little bitmurky sometimes with some
definitions of the spirit.
But essentially what we did wastalk about how that is our
identity.
It's the seed of our identity,our purpose, right, our capacity
for even engaging in worship toGod, right, it's our spirit
that reaches out to God.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, our eternal part of us that is always sort
of rooted in that pureness ordesires, that place where God
fits right, the place where thatthat longs for him.

Speaker 3 (03:27):
Right, and that's how we also receive love, right.
Is in our spirit.
We talked about that, how weexperience transformation when
we come to the Lord.
Right, and that's how, throughour spirit, how we-.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
That gets saved first .
That gets saved first right.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
God saves our spirit.
To save our soul right.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
Right right.

Speaker 3 (03:51):
And then we talked about, kind of at the end of
that kind of section we talkedabout when each part of the
person is operating as God wantsus to be, as God has designed
us, has created us to be, Thenthat's when we experience the
positives right, we experiencehealth, identity, purpose
connection.

(04:11):
Wholeness, wholeness.
Yeah, and then any disruptionin that kind of affects the
whole of who we are.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
And how does that disruption occur?

Speaker 3 (04:25):
occur and then so we talked about the disruption.
Thank, that's a great segue,awesome, perfect.
Thank you so?
We talked about.
After that, though, we talkedabout how that disruption
happens, and we talked about, uh, trauma, and we talked about
attachment.
We talked about kind ofdefining those, those different
types of attachments.
We talked about trauma beingthat emotional, physical,

(04:53):
psychological response todistressing or a disturbing
event or events in our lives.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
Well, trauma is a byproduct of abuse.
Basically, you know whetherthat's psychological, sexual,
physical, um emotional neglectokay which I know you know.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
I'm just clarifying for the audience right, right,
uh, and you actually kind of umwent a little bit deeper there
and talked about acute trauma,right, which is that that single
event, uh, chronic, sorry, goahead yeah, I was gonna say
acute is where it's sort of likea ptsd effect, where it's still

(05:30):
affecting you on a regularbasis but it's been one event
that's still affecting someone,or is that?

Speaker 2 (05:37):
no, um, acute means more that it's happening right
now.
Okay, you know that.
That it's that the effects ofsomething is ongoing in the
present moment.
Right, it doesn't necessarilymean how long it lasted or how
many times it happened.
It's mostly the effect ofwhatever that was.

(05:57):
So if I'm in pain right nowfrom a broken arm you know two
weeks ago, I'm still in acutepain yeah.

Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yeah, and we also talked about along those lines.
We talked about chronic trauma,which is that repeated exposure
to, to trauma, to, to stressyeah, it's ongoing Right.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
Right and so like, in a sexual abuse, or physical
abuse or neglect or evenpsychological.
Often that is not just aone-off.
If there is abuse, it'stypically ongoing, sometimes for
years.
I've known people who areabused from age five years old

(06:41):
to age 11 years old or age eightyears old, until they actually
moved out of the house, you know.
So it can be ongoing, um, whichcreates a whole lot of other
things.
But all of that leads to how weattach and which is, um,
ultimately what forms a personright and I think maybe to one

(07:04):
of the things that we didn't.

Speaker 3 (07:05):
I don't, I don't remember if we did like my
father-in-law says I've sleptsince the last time.
You know I did this.
But complex trauma is one ofthe things that I don't know
that we really kind of zeroed inon at all.
But can you kind of speak tothat?
It's that trauma that occurs inthe context.
It's that trauma that occurs inthe context.
So we're talking aboutattachments.
So it occurs in the context,right, of relationships, you

(07:28):
know, especially during, youknow, when we're little humans.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, so complex trauma is really defined as
little T trauma.
So big T trauma is the fourmajor neglect that could be.
As a kiddo you didn't have acaregiver that was feeding you
and you might've gone dayswithout food or your diaper

(07:51):
never got changed for a whileand you lived in constant,
constant neglect or physicalabuse, sexual abuse or
psychological abuse.
So those are basically the bigT traumas.
Other big T traumas would be anear-death experience, a car
accident or even an infant, andI've had friends whose child

(08:18):
developed cancer at a very earlyage.
I mean we know of friends earlyage.
I mean we know of friends andso that child lived with tons of
surgeries, tons ofhospitalizations.
So that's still a big T trauma,even though it wasn't the kind

(08:38):
that we typically associate withtrauma car accident, witnessing
your parents try to murder yourother parent, or real case
experiences where the child didwitness their parent being
murdered, or any of those kindof big, big life events that we
would consider big.
The little incidents of likebeing bullied at school, being

(09:05):
made fun of not getting yourneeds met, your parent
ridiculing you, or a breakup,something that really affects
our emotional equilibrium.
That then kind of changes theway we view the world.

(09:25):
So there's a plethora of thingsthat would constitute little T
trauma, but so complex trauma iskind of like the ongoing
effects of all of those things.
Trauma is such a buzzword thesedays and I think it's because

(09:47):
people are getting acquaintedwith themselves more so and not
slipping things under the ruglike they used to.
But it is kind of a buzzword.
But basically we're trying toidentify the things that hurt us
.
Right.
Because whatever hurts us, if itdoesn't become healed, is going

(10:07):
to fester and get infected.
And if it gets infected it'sgoing to come out and you're
going to bleed on somebody youknow generally not in a good way
, Right, right, so that'scomplex trauma, okay, so kind of
.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
I'm going to go down this cul-de-sac here for a
second.
So what about you?
You brought this up about youknow it's kind of a buzzword,
right, and I'm sure, as alicensed marriage and family
therapist and having your ownpractice and all that good stuff
that you probably see onInstagram and social media kind
of, these videos that that kindof do bring you know these ideas

(10:46):
, these thoughts, these concepts, these conditions right, kind
of to the forefront, I wouldimagine sometimes it's for the
good and sometimes maybe not.
You know, maybe someone'smisinformed or something, what?
What's your take on kind ofsocial media and how it brings
these things to the surface?

Speaker 2 (11:08):
I think there are some wonderful things on social
media.
I often use that as a referencefor people because if you come
to therapy even if you come to apastor for counseling typically
you're going to get one hourRight.
That is, one hour in seven daysis not sufficient to address
the issue.
When I used to do nutrition andpersonal training, I would tell

(11:33):
people you know, if you'recoming to work out with me for
two days a week, you got sevendays in a week.
Why are you only picking twoLike how much change do you
really want?
So one hour is not sufficient,and so often I use social media
tools to help people kind ofunderstand a little bit more

(11:54):
about themselves, and so in thatsense, there are wonderful
people on social media where youcan really glean and learn from
um.
However, tiktok and YouTubesometimes can be very negative,
and here's why I'm going to goback to the lens we see life
through.
So if my lens is abandonment ormy lens is rejection because I

(12:20):
have all these wounds that Ihave not addressed, I'm going to
then look at videos thatreinforce that.
Again, confirmation bias.
I believe something Now.
Everything I see and hear andlearn is reinforcing and
confirming what I alreadybelieve.

(12:41):
And so I've seen this with kidswith cutting, I've seen it with
kids with suicidal, I've seenit with kids with suicidal
ideation, and adults, for thatmatter, whatever they view.
Once the algorithms are sogreat at knowing what the person
is interested in, they willcontinue to feed that to them.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
You must be able to read upside down, because I just
wrote on my notes algorithm.
Oh yeah, no, I wasn't.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
But you know so.
So if someone is listening tosad, depressing music and
there's so much of that, orsomeone is said to their friend,
hey, I cut myself all of asudden, you know the phone's
listening, it's going to feedyou all those videos and now you
have a menu and a diet ofnegativity that's going to

(13:29):
reinforce your victimization andfurther behaviors.
So here's what I would say.
The Bible says nothing initself is unclean, but when it
enters the heart of man, itbecomes unclean, and so I think
there's wonderful tools outthere, but it can be used for

(13:53):
bad.
Everything, I think, can begood and bad at the same exact
time.
It's just what we do with itand what we're looking for
ultimately.
Right, two things can exist inour heads at the same time yeah,
yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
And then we talked about a little bit too, about,
well, we talked not a little bit, but then we went into
attachment and that deepemotional bond that is created,
that connection that's createdbetween us when we're little
humans, right, and ourcaregivers Right.
And then we were talking aboutkind of the different attachment

(14:30):
styles.
We went through secureattachment, which forms when you
know, I call it the leave it tobeaver attachment, but that's,
that's kind of not really whatit is, I know, but that's kind
of like right, right, right.
And the caregivers areemotionally available.
They're there, everythinghappens great for you, and even,
I would say even in secureattachment right, everybody's a

(14:53):
human being and not everything'sgoing to happen, perfect all
the time Right, right, right.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
But there's that attachment.

Speaker 3 (14:57):
But you can repair Right when things go wrong,
Right right, beaver always wasable to come home, you know,
when he had a problem and Wardwas always able to fix it.
I like that, so, uh, but uh.
Then we talked about avoidantattachment, right, so when
caregivers are uh distant, right, uh, unresponsive, uh, they're

(15:20):
not tuned into the emotions andthe needs of the child, how is
that so?
I was thinking about this typeof attachment and I know that in

(15:41):
a codependent relationship,right, one is the avoidant right
Kind of avoids responsibility,kind of retreats.
In a codependent relationship,someone that is in a
relationship with someone thatthis person feels like they are
always covering for this person.
They have a partner that isalways avoiding, whether that be
spinning off and going inaddictions or just completely

(16:03):
withdrawing and separating fromfamily emotionally distant,
emotionally withdrawal.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
How does that type of attachment factor into
codependent relationships?
Well, the codependent, you know, based on whether or not well,
it would totally amplify therejection and abandonment wound.
Okay, right, and so thecodependent person pushes harder
, works harder, tries to dobetter, constantly strive,

(16:35):
strive, strive.
Because they're trying tofigure out what's going to make
this avoidant spouse or parentcome closer to them.
Because, ultimately, they'relooking for connection.
And at the end of the day, weare all looking for connection
because that's how God wired us.
You know, when he made Adam, hedidn't make Adam to be alone.

(16:58):
He first made Adam and had allof the animals on the earth as a
companion.
That was not good enough.
So then put Adam to sleep andmade Eve.

(17:23):
Because humans need faculties,are disconnected within
themselves, it makes itincredibly difficult for that
relationship to be healthy, andall the more reason why healing
needs to occur.
And you can heal.

(17:43):
Someone who is avoidant canheal.
But what happens sometimes is Idon't want to say one or two
things, because nothing fitstidily into this nice little box
, but this is where, in all ofthese situations, is where
personality disorders are formed.
So, let's say, a narcissist,for example and, by the way,

(18:08):
statistics show that there'sreally only about 1% to 5% of
people who are clinicallynarcissistic.

Speaker 3 (18:16):
I was going to say another thing that's rampant not
rampant, but a lot on socialmedia also that we see too.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yeah, because we have traits of narcissism.
And I would say the traits ofnarcissism occur because people
are living in survival mentality.
So if someone is holding a gunto my head and the only thing
I'm thinking about is how I'mgoing to live and get away from
this person, make it out alive.
My top priority is myself,because I am surviving, and so

(18:47):
people with abusive backgroundsand trauma are very much in
survival instinct.
So it does look incrediblyselfish, but the selfishness is
rooted in survival and so thatoften gets misconstrued with
narcissism, and so when someoneis really clinically narcissist,

(19:11):
it's very difficult for them toeven recognize where their need
is.
They don't even see the factthat they're disconnected, they
don't even see the fact thatthey're emotionally unavailable.
They just don't even have alens for that or any sort of,
because it was really severed inthe trauma and that would only

(19:37):
I mean God is the only one thatcan really create a miracle to
repair that and restore what gotbroken.
Because they say thatresearchers say that the psyche
gets split and there becomes aveil that just puts that piece

(19:58):
of that person away and itbecomes so far removed they
can't quite access it and itbecomes so far removed, they
can't quite access it.
It would really take anintervention of God in that type
of a situation.
But avoidance is often coping.
So many things become coping,which we'll get through in a

(20:19):
little bit more, but the woundis affecting, know is affecting
in our, ultimately our, identity.

Speaker 3 (20:27):
Right.
So those kinds of things, youknow, for example, when we're
talking about narcissism, thatbecomes something that kind of
has, I guess, then developedright to where that person has
kind of seen it as kind of acoping mechanism for trauma,
then Right, and it feels orseems selfish, but in reality

(20:48):
it's just that person going no,this is how I am reacting and
responding to what has happenedto me.

Speaker 2 (20:54):
Yeah Well, it's subconscious.
So the person is completelyaware Right Right In narcissism
there is no awareness periodthat the veil is covering
everything, right.
But when a person is aware andthey've learned to cope out of
safety, to prevent pain, furtherpain, that person can actually

(21:18):
grow through that and heal andget some help and then learn how
to connect.
But the vulnerability that thattakes is quite difficult.

Speaker 3 (21:29):
It's a big step.
Yeah.
So we also talked about theanxious attachment which is the
result of inconsistentcaregiving, which can lead to
the child becoming anxious,clinging, needy, etc.
You know, fearing abandonment,and I know that there's a lot of

(21:53):
parents out there that areprobably going oh no, you know,
I want to make sure my child,you know, gets the best.
We're not always consistent.
So are we talking about, youknow, about the occasional?
I know we're not talking aboutI'm asking our way because I
know we're not but we're notreally talking about the

(22:16):
occasional inconsistencies thatwe all sometimes have.
Right, I am going to cut thatright there, because my chair
just made a weird noise and itsounded like something else, so
okay, I didn't even hear it, bythe way let me go back.
My chair just didn't made thissqueak and I'm like, oh, that
sounded weird and I was liftingup at the same time.

(22:36):
So, anyway, okay, all right.
So 23, 26, okay, we'll startagain here, all right.
So anxious attachment is one ofthe ones that we talked about
as well, kind of that weemphasize.
I know that a lot of parentsare probably listening, going,

(23:11):
oh no, I want to make sure mychild is receiving consistent,
you know, love and all thosegood kind of things from me.
If there's someone out theregoing, hey, you know what, maybe
I have been inconsistent in myapproach, what I know, we're
talking zero to five years,right, zero to three years, kind
of like, right in that, whatcan I do as a parent to kind of
repair that?
We talk a lot about repairingconversations, right, and
repairing different things inour lives.

(23:32):
If someone is recognizing andgoing, oh, I may be a little
inconsistent, I want to makesure that my child gets the best
From your viewpoint, what cansomeone do to kind of repair
that?

Speaker 2 (23:47):
your viewpoint, what can someone do to kind of repair
that?
Well, generally that I mean ifthey're in the process of
raising a child zero to five.
If you're in that process rightnow, you know, I would just
make sure your own needs are met, because we cannot meet the
needs of others if we ourselfare not okay.
And so when it comes toparenting, like, one of the
things I see often is um, um,what's the word?

(24:14):
Um?
Postpartum depression in moms,right, and so when there is
postpartum um, the mom is really, really struggling, and so they
are really going to have adifficult time connecting with
their infant and little toddlerbecause mom's all over the place
and needs some help, and so themom might show up and nurse the

(24:36):
baby and have a little time tobe with the baby, but then the
mom is going to fall back into adepression and may not be
available for the rest of theday.
So it's that kind of thing.
Also, when they're siblings,born really close together, the
kiddo that maybe they're two nowthey have another little baby

(24:58):
come along and doesn't alwaysget the attention it needs, you
know, and a lot of children areborn close together like that.
So that in and of itself is nota problem.
Where attachment gets disruptedis when a child has needs that
doesn't get met or gets met veryinconsistently.

(25:22):
And most of the time whenchildren are growing, what's
going to happen is they're goingto cry.
So I just had heard of a case.
Actually, a pastor friendcalled me and the parent was
screaming at the child becausethe child is crying.

(25:42):
Children do not cry most of thetime unless they have a need.
We do not always know what thatneed is, but when a children
throws themselves on the groundand has a tantrum, something's
happening.
The kid's not just being a badkid, right.
And so if we don't address that, if we don't comfort that, if
we don't and there's lots ofways to parents so I'm not here

(26:04):
to say, right, always pick themup and hold them.
My daughter-in-law isincredible, um, in the way that
she parents and has taught metons, you know, because she's so
good at being able to recognizethings.
But you know it's, it's this.
Attachment usually gets brokenwhen needs aren't met.
If a child cries and they'renever soothed, they're not

(26:26):
comforted, but maybe they do getfed.
So you know, they may get theirneeds met in this area, but
they're not getting their needsmet in that area and it gets
incredibly confusing.
Well, you know mom or dad orsibling, you know they play with
me, but then they do this to metoo.
Or they might feed me, but thenthey don't pick me up when I'm

(26:50):
crying.
Or they pick me up all the timewhen I'm crying, but, man, I go
to bed hungry and I'm starvingto death.
You know, it could be anycombination of anything, but the
child doesn't have a way toprocess that, because they're
developing Okay.

Speaker 3 (27:08):
Got it.
We also talked aboutdisorganized attachment and
that's when caregivers like youwere just mentioning right, Our
source of comfort and fear.
So that's that abusive right.
And then the child kind oflacks a clear strategy for
safety, Right, Right.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
And connection Right, and then the child kind of
lacks a clear strategy forsafety.

Speaker 3 (27:30):
Right, right and connection Right, yeah.
And then we we did mention Iknow you talked about to how
trauma affects attachment Right,and when trauma we were
mentioning disrupts that earlybonding, then that internal
belief system and all of thosethings that develop early on are
shaped around like you weretalking about survival right

(27:51):
Rather than trust in a parentRight.
So we mentioned, we mentionedthat, we talked about that and
we talked about how that affectsnot only their ability to
connect emotionally andspiritually, but it also results
in all of the things that wetalked about.
You know the insecurity, therelationship dysfunction with,

(28:13):
with others, and then and then Iwas going to say, obviously,
but most importantly, thatmistrust toward God, because if
I've, if I've not received that,if I've received, you've
received disorganized orinconsistent care and I've
developed that internal beliefsystem then, any parent right,

(28:33):
any father right when we talkabout God as our father, then
any father is going to.
There's that belief system thatany father is going to behave
the same way.
God is my father and he's notgoing to be consistent.
I mean that's the internalmonologue.
That happens sometimes.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yeah and again.
All this is so subconscious.
People are not really aware.
They're just reacting, anduniversally, I think everybody
has heard that God is good, andso, when their experience
doesn't match that, theyimmediately go back to the way

(29:09):
they cope because of theabandonment, rejection wound All
of which, you know, wounds,mostly most attachment styles in
this setting are going to leadto either an abandonment or a
rejection wound.
You want to, yeah, so and thenand and and.

Speaker 3 (29:34):
healing then from that, or understanding.
Uh, this leads to healing frominside out rather than outside
in Right, we kind of talkedabout that a little bit, helping
people heal from the root, notjust kind of manage the symptoms
of what's happening to them.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
So I want to just sort of quick talk to the
audience about.
You know, if you don't knowyourself well, it's hard to sort
of put all of this together.
But any kind of trauma big Ttrauma, little t trauma is going
to cause a person to feelrejected, abandoned, fearful,

(30:22):
distrusting, and all of thosebegin to shape the way we see
ourself and which leads to shame, and shame is an identity
crisis.
It's really an identity issuebecause now, you know, because
of what I didn't get, whatneeds't get met, the original

(30:45):
design God had for us when we'rea kiddo got interrupted by the
enemy through trauma, and nowhas completely distorted our
sense of self Right.
And so it starts with you know,our needs don't get met.

(31:08):
We begin to form this beliefsystem about who we are or who
we're not Right, and that beliefspeaks to identity this is who
I am.
And then all of that funnelsdown into our emotional system
and our emotions then are whatwe behave out of.
So our coping mechanisms areactually behavior patterns that

(31:32):
are rooted in our emotions, thatare rooted in our ultimate
belief system of ourself.

Speaker 3 (31:38):
Right, and you're talking about that, talking
about the different fears ofabandonment and rejection, about
that, talking about, um, thedifferent fears of of
abandonment and rejection, uh,which is part of shame it is, is
is closely tied to shame, right, um, and that was kind of what
we talked about in part twoabout, uh, fear, broken
attachment, uh, and trust.

(31:58):
So when you mentioned that fearof abandonment and rejection,
um, there's also that fear,right, of harm, right, a fear of
one of the things that I kindof was looking at our show notes
and we didn't really talk aboutit a whole lot but the fear of
being unseen or forgotten.
Yeah.
Right, do I matter?
Right, right, you know.

(32:19):
Fear of abandonment, says arethey going to leave me?
Right.
Fear of rejection says am Igood enough?
Right, right, which is verycommon, right, uh, feeling not
being good enough, that thatgoes to a whole, uh wide range
of feelings, right I'm notenough right.
I'm not enough right yeah, andthen the fear of harm says you

(32:40):
know, will I be hurt, right.
And then, of course, the fearof being unseen and forgotten is
like, do I even matter, right,right, and that leads to kind of
a framework for relationships,and we talked about when fear
becomes that framework.
We talked about the how we kindof interact.

(33:01):
So we talked abouthypervigilance, right, which is
I call it always reading thegreen, which is a golfing term,
right.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah, I was reading the room.
Yeah, right.

Speaker 3 (33:12):
Reading the room Right and I want to address
something real quick I know,you're going to go further.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
But hypervigilance can also be a really good thing
because what it teaches a personis discernment, right, when
you're hypervigilant because ofnegative reasons, you also
become very discerning andsometimes that discernment is
viewed through a negative lens.
But when God comes in andrestores that and heals that,

(33:42):
you get to keep all of thetalents you learned through
survival and God begins to showyou discernment through His lens
.

Speaker 3 (33:50):
Yeah, it's that, I guess, I just wanted to add that
, really quick.
Right.
So going back to talking aboutthe whole person, then if in our
spirit right we've learned thathypervigilance, when God fills
our spirit to save us, then thatworking of His spirit with our
hypervigilance right is a goodthing.
Yeah, no, that's perfect.

(34:11):
We talked about control.
Yeah.
Right Avoiding hurt throughperfectionism or withdrawal.
I see that you know just as aperson going to church.
Right we see that inperfectionism, if I am perfect,
then the church will love meright.

(34:32):
If I am perfect, then God.
And sometimes when we think,okay, if I am perfect, then the
church will think I'm good,right, the church will love me,
then we.
We translate that.
People translate that sometimesas if the church loves me, then
that must mean god loves me tooright right, but in reality
there's that disconnect with thelord right there.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
They're still very much dependent on their value
coming from someone else'sopinion of them, right, instead
of our value coming from god'sopinion of us it's that and
that's human nature.
But but it's also um, it's alsojust a part of a person that
has not been healed yet and it'spart of that.

Speaker 3 (35:15):
That external referencing right, that's the
term I was, that was kind ofcome to my head there uh, that
external referencing of lookingat and saying, okay, if
everybody else thinks I'm good,then I'm good.
We also talked aboutdefensiveness, right.
Yes A lot of that.
Yeah, using distance, and onething that we had again in the

(35:37):
show notes, which we can put upalso in the description of this
once we're done with part threehere using distance or
aggression to self-protect.
Talk a little bit about whatyou see when you talk about
distance or aggression toself-protect.

Speaker 2 (35:53):
Yeah, john Gottman would call it stonewalling.
Stonewalling, yeah, anddistance is just a complete
disconnect and that can happenfor a lot of reasons, but
ultimately someone is trying tocontrol the situation.
Distance is just a completedisconnect and that can happen
for a lot of reasons, butultimately someone is trying to
control the situation.
And I'm going to control thissituation by distancing myself
and not giving you access to me.

(36:14):
And I see aggression asbullying and I see it so
frequently.
Which is all of this frequently.
Which is all of this?
You know, we talked about thislast time.
It's all very intertwined withso much of what we do in therapy
.
But you know, violation ofboundaries, because love really

(36:36):
will show up and respect aperson.
You know love will really sayyou know, okay, you're asking me
to lower my tone.
I'm going to lower my tonebecause you're not feeling
comfortable.
But when someone is superdefensive, number one, they're
not accountable and they won'ttake responsibility.
So immediately, my ability totrust you is out the window

(37:01):
because we can't communicate andwe can't connect is out the
window because we can'tcommunicate and we can't connect
.
And if somebody is aggressive,they're also taking control of
the situation and bullying theother person because why it
works.
If I puff out my chest and Istart yelling and screaming, the

(37:21):
average person is going to backup and say, okay, this doesn't
feel safe.
At least subconsciously,they're going to feel that way
and they're going to go theopposite direction, which is
exactly what that person wantsthem to do, because they want to
take the pressure off ofthemselves in that situation.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
And yeah, when you mentioned Gottman Iman uh, I was
talking, I was, I was thinkingautomatically in my head uh, one
of the uh four horsemen I thinkhe calls it right Of of
communication and stonewallingis one of them, uh, which is
excellent, and I use that when Iwhen I talk with couples um.
I use the four horsemen a lot,talking about you know the the

(38:03):
negative things that we do thataffect communication between
between couples.
I use I use that a lot.
It's very, very good.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
And I, and so just real quick, I want to interject
in this.
So I tell clients all the timeif I'm angry at you, but let's
say you walked up and you hit mein the face, right, I have a
very good reason to be angry andyou're probably going to get
hit back, but my emotions belongto me and so if I'm angry, that

(38:38):
should be a red flag to me thatsomething's going on with me.
So if a person is defensive andif a person is aggressive, that
should be the first red flagthat something's going on with
them.
You know, and and um, we shouldbe able to look at that.
But going back to the fact thatmost people don't take the time

(39:01):
to look inward, they don't takethe time to look at themselves,
they just justify.
You know well, you shouldn'thave said it to me that way.
Your tone was wrong.
You know all of the pushbackand blame instead of being able
to come to the table and say,hey, and you know, as Christians
we're all guilty of this likebecause people are people, and

(39:22):
so, even though God cleans upthe inside, I feel like a lot of
Christians compartmentalize.
I am this when I'm at churchand I feel the Lord and
everything is good, and then yougo home and now you have to
apply all of these things, whichis where the fruit of the
Spirit comes in, but we haven'treally learned how to do those

(39:44):
things because we haven't takenthe time to look at ourselves,
we haven't taken the time toaddress our own childhood and
the hurts in life that caused usto turn to the Lord in the
first place, and so I think thisis the place where a lot of
people see hypocrisy, and it'sit's not really hypocrisy, it's

(40:06):
just ignorance.
They just haven't fully allowedGod to work in all four
quadrants of their being Right.

Speaker 3 (40:14):
Right, and I think, when you were talking about
compartmentalizing, I thinkthat's something that happens
regardless of what denominationyou're in, or you're just when
you come to church, right, and Ithink sometimes that, um, we,
specifically when talking aboutanger and talking about how it's
, you know, I call it kind oflike that, that dashboard
indicator, that something is up,right.

(40:36):
Yeah, um, and I think sometimes, as believers, what we do is we
we're and um, which is okay,you know, as long as we, and
that's where we stop.
Yeah.
Right, be angry.
So if I'm angry, but if I don'tsin, then I'm okay.
Well, yes, that's what thescripture says, but you know

(40:58):
what else is true, right?
So there's something elseunderneath that that's causing
that anger.
Um, I may not sin because of myanger, right?
So sometimes we go, okay, I'mangry but I'm not going to sin.
Okay, turn the page.
End of story, go to the nextchapter, right?
But really it's kind of likeGod's like no, no, no, no, wait,

(41:19):
wait, wait.
You want to think about whyyou're being angry also to avoid
that in the future.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
And anger is a secondary emotion, and a lot of
people have heard that.
I had a professor one time tellme it was a secondary emotion
to hurt and helplessness, and Ireally find that true.
But I want to add a coupleother things.
It's also a response toinjustice, and so when things

(41:50):
happen to us that's not fairliterally not fair Because there
is right, there is wrong, thereare moral laws, there are civil
laws, there are things that arejust unjust, and so when a
person is dealing with injustice, when they have been hurt, when

(42:11):
they are helpless, you knowthat's the kid whose parent
beats them up.
They can't do anything about it, but take it.
You know there is a lot of thatthat results in anger, because
anger gives me a sense ofcontrol.
When I feel helpless, I need tonot feel helpless.
When I feel hurt, I need arelease, I need an expression

(42:33):
for that, and so anger is such areally great tool for a person
to use, but if left unchecked,it can lead to suicide, it can
lead to murder and I mean I seeit and it can lead to bitterness

(42:54):
, in a spiritual context wherebitterness will kill your soul
and prevent you from evergetting close to God.
So that's just a little extrawhere anger is concerned,
because we do have a generationright now, especially of boys
and men that are very angrybecause for some reason anger

(43:16):
feels masculine and it gives avery false sense of masculinity
and strength when it is exactlythe opposite.
And if you think about how hardit is for a man to cry and be
vulnerable or to be angry, whichone is the hardest?

Speaker 3 (43:38):
Yeah, they're going to pick the angry button.
Guys do that, right, Right.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
But the hardest thing is for a man to be vulnerable
and cry Right.
So which one is really strong?
Not being angry Right?
That's the weakest becausethat's the easiest Right.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
Because when we think we're controlling the situation
, we're really illustrating toeveryone around us that we are
out of control.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
Correct yeah, correct yeah For people who know how to
see that Right.

Speaker 3 (44:04):
Right, but again, it's one of those things, just
as so, just as all these copingmechanisms kind of develop right
over time to where we don'teven think about it.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
Right, it's automatic .

Speaker 3 (44:13):
It's instinctive and one of these, and it's the same
thing.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
on the positive side of it, right, it's like we have
to develop these things so thateventually it becomes a second
nature to us.
Yeah, my previous relationshipused to say, which was very
helpful.
I also punched him in the faceonce because he wouldn't back

(44:38):
off, which thank goodness he didnot hit me back.
That was a moment of weakness.
But he used to say to me hey,can we start over?
Yep, can, can we have a do-over?
And you know, I've alwaysadmired that about him because,
um, I was so defiant andprideful.
I would rather someone punchedme in the face then.

(45:01):
Uh, then for me to swallow mypride and be vulnerable.
But he was able to really cometo the table and say, hey, I
think you heard me wrong.
Could we just start over?
And um, that helped a lotbecause I was able to meet him
there and and that wasn't easy,but you know it takes strength

(45:23):
to be able to do that yeah, Oneof the things I talk about when
I talk to couples is thoserepair attempts.

Speaker 3 (45:30):
Right, yeah, that's a perfect example of a repair
attempt is, and I say, hey,conversations that start off
negative are probably not goingto finish positive.
Right, they're going to finishhow they started off.
Yes, probably not going tofinish positive, right, they're
going to finish how they startedoff, yes, so if you find
yourself starting off aconversation like you never take
out the trash.
So here's what we're going totalk about, here's what we're

(45:54):
going to talk about, right,you're always lazy, you're
always doing this kind of thing.
So conversations that startlike that are not going to end
with but I love you, right,right, they're going to start
off.
If they start off negative'regonna end negative.
And so I say, hey, do that.
Exactly what what you weretalking about is that pause,
right, um, sometimes when I,sometimes I direct community
theater, sometimes in my sparetime, right, and so, uh, one of

(46:17):
the cast members goes hey, doyou realize that every time you
want the scene to stop becauseyou want to interject something,
you do this little hand motionand and I'm like what it is is,
it's the remote control in myhand, right, and I'm pushing the
pause button and so I telleverybody on stage I'll go hold
up and I'll do this little, thislittle pause button, uh
maneuver thing with my hand.

(46:38):
Looks like I'm giving them athumbs up, but I'm not.
I'm trying to uh pause.
And so the scene stops and Iinterject as a director.
Sometimes in life it's like yougot to hold the pause button,
right, you got to go.
Okay, you know what?
This did not start off very well.
You're not getting the bestversion of me right now and I'm
not getting probably the bestversion of you.
Maybe let's pause on this,let's come back five minutes

(46:59):
later, 10 minutes later.
I'm going to go for a drive,but I am coming back, right, and
we will revisit this.
Right, it's when thatseparation happens, where
there's no front loading of hey,this is why this is happening,
right, I'm going to come back.
When that doesn't happen, thenit's like, well, they're
avoiding me.
Yeah, distrust, right, trust isjust completely broken.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
Yeah, and so with that lens, how we view God is
really going to be hampered,because if we're not able, if we
get angry and defensive andaggressive, we're not going to
be able to handle correction orwe're not going to be able to
handle a loving word that isactually for our good.
That would, you know, help usto heal from some of these

(47:42):
things, you know.
And that's when people get madat the preacher and, you know,
gr us to heal from some of thesethings.
You know, and that's whenpeople get mad at the preacher
and, you know, grumble andcomplain, and it's generally
because there's something withinthem that is not wanting to be
accountable or responsible towhat they need to do, and most

(48:04):
of the time it is because theywere accused all the time of
something, and so when you'reaccused a lot of things, true or
false, it creates thatdefensive posture and so we
really have to separate, youknow, which takes a lot of

(48:26):
intentionality.
We really have to separate.
Okay, you know, this is not myparent, this is not my ex.
This is really, you know thisperson actually really loves me.
I tell, I tell customers orclients all the time you got to
remember you love this person.
You got to remember you choseto do life with this person.

(48:47):
Because that is generally goingto be on the back burner.
And if we put that on the frontburner okay, wait a minute what
would this look like through alens of love?
We can typically kind of lowerour defenses and come to the
table and the same with God, ifI can remember, wait, god loves
me.
My pastor actually is here formy good to shepherd me, you know

(49:10):
.
Is that really their intention?
Or am I mishearing it becauseof my wounds Right?

Speaker 3 (49:17):
And there's a lot of people that maybe have fallen
away from their faith that mightbe listening to this in that
exact same position right now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And cause.
We talked about how that, youknow, last time, I think in
episode two, we talked about howthat broken attachment, that
fear, can influence how we seeourselves, how we see others,
but then ultimately, how we seeGod, and we see fear distorts

(49:40):
that view of God.
Is what we're kind of talkingabout, and God is seen as
distant, he's seen as punitive.
God is seen as trustworthy oruntrustworthy, rather, and we
fear that intimacy with God,even while you were talking
about kind of that littleaddition to that statement was
you were talking about evenwhile longing for it, right,

(50:03):
right, and that was one of thethings that we talked about in
episode two.
We talked about what you knowfear blocks healing.
It prevents that deep emotionalconnection with others, like I
was just talking about, leads toavoidance or vulnerability.
It reinforces that cycle ofshame, anxiety, isolation from

(50:26):
others.
But then we started talkingabout perfect love, casting out
fear, god's love beingconsistent.
I think it was attributed toBenjamin Franklin, who said the
only thing in life that isconsistent is death and taxes.
I think that's the statement,but I would go a little bit
further and say the only thingreally that is consistent in

(50:47):
life is God's love.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
Amen yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
And as we receive that type of love, all that
other fear begins to I'm goingto say not overnight, but it
begins to dissolve.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Yeah, when we take a step to trust, take a step to
gamble on God.
Really, you know, yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:12):
That intentionality, yeah, and that fear gets
replaced by trust.

Speaker 2 (51:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:18):
That was kind of where we ended up in episode two
.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
Yeah and yeah.
So with attachment, with anysort of you know, and I would
say you know this is notstatistically correct, but I
would say pretty much humanityas a whole really struggles with
fear and trust.

(51:43):
You know, if you've lived lifeat all, fear shows up and I
think that's the number one toolthe enemy uses against people a
lot it's not the number one,but it's pretty up there and our
ability to trust others,because ultimately we're afraid
that we're going to get hurt.
You know so, yeah, so God'sperfect love to cast out fears,

(52:08):
yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (52:09):
And when that I was listening to a podcast and I
actually wrote down thescripture.
A very famous preacher wastalking about this and one of
the things that he brought upwas John 15 and 9.
And I actually wrote it downfor myself and kind of to have
here.
And he the scripture that saysas the father has loved me,
jesus is talking to hisdisciples as the father has

(52:31):
loved me, so I have loved you.
And when we receive that love,you know, from him, it begins to
kind of abate everything elseand we allow that love to come
into our spirit.
Yeah Right, it begins to workon all of the other things that

(52:54):
we need help with.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
Right, right, um, but today.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
Uh, we wanted to kind of as part.
Of course, we have spent quitea bit of time kind of recapping,
but I think we've recovered, Ithink it was good.
yeah, We've covered a lot ofreally good stuff and brought
some things out that we didn'tbring up in parts one and two,
right.
But today what we're going totalk about is where the enemy is
at work in abuse and trauma,right, right.

(53:24):
From a biblical perspective,from a biblical lens, how the
enemy uses trauma.
You know that we talked aboutespecially, particularly rather
in childhood, to kind ofdisorient, distort our identity,
disrupt attachment to others,ourselves to God Right.
Disrupt attachment to others,ourselves to God right.

(53:44):
And how it hinders a person'srelationship with God, because
ultimately that's the goal ofthe enemy to cut off
communication, to cut off thatrelationship with God.
Because he knows, the enemyknows that if that happens, then
everything else is easy fromhis perspective, right, right.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
And that's where the backslider's living Right,
exactly Because there's a fewdifferent types of backsliders
those who love God but have beenhurt by the church, those who
love God but just don't want togo back to their childhood
church because they have badmemories or whatever.

(54:25):
And then there are those whoare angry at God and those who
think that God didn't show upfor them, and those who feel
like they've gone too far forGod to forgive them.

Speaker 3 (54:40):
Which is a lie.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
Which is a complete lie, right, but that belief can
be so strong, so strong, and sothat that's why we're addressing
this, you know, because, again,we're reaching for people who
are disconnected from theirrelationship with the lord and
wanting them to reconnect.
And what we're trying toexplain is that all of this

(55:06):
where you are or where you'renot with God is so intricately
woven in how and what happenedto you and how you see yourself,
from birth all the way towhatever place you find yourself
in life with, and even me, andeven you, kelly, you know, I

(55:27):
mean, in the last probably 11and a half years, god has
probably brought me further thanI've ever been in my life, you
know, and even though I wasstriving, even though I was
studying and reading, the last11 years it's really been a
turnaround, almost 12 now.
But we're always ever evolving,and what God is always trying

(55:54):
to do is expose what's in us,what's been buried, what's been
wounded, and there are timeswhen I've been in prayer.
This happened several years agoat church.
I bet you this happened 15, 18years ago.
I was down praying towards thefront of the church and I was

(56:17):
just praying and, all of asudden, the Lord gave me a
picture of my son as a littlebaby, probably two years old.
He just gave me a picture of myson at that age and when he did
, I just wept for the pain Ifelt of what happened, you know,

(56:40):
back then.
And I heard the Lord say Ihaven't forgotten, and in that
moment he was bringing up to mepain that had been so deeply
buried when I, you know, when wegot divorced.

(57:00):
And so you know, the lord neverforgets, and when he does bring
those things up to exposewhat's in us, he's trying to
heal it, right, you know.
But it's got to come up, it'sgot to come out, right.
So where is the devil at workin our wounds?

Speaker 3 (57:17):
yeah.
So, uh, number one we'redistorting, he's distorting, the
enemy is distorting the imageof God.
So God's design is that eachperson, each child, each person
bears the image of God right andhas that inherent value because
of it.
And the enemy's attack is heintroduces obviously we're

(57:39):
talking about introducing shame.
So he introduces shame,confusion, identity damage.
I think I mentioned in the firstepisode where every attack that
the enemy came to Jesus whenJesus is first starting his
ministry, right, every attacksays you know, if you are the
son of God, right, if you reallyare who you say you are Right.

(58:01):
If you are this person, say youare Right.
If you are this person, then dothis right.
It's that if-then statementthat he's using in all three of
these attacks against Jesus.
And I think it's interesting tolook at also, is that Jesus'
response to that is not somedeclaration, it's not some.

(58:24):
I mean he could have easily saidanything at that point, right,
he could have said beforeAbraham was I am so who, are you
right?
He could have said anythinglike that, but what he actually
uses is the word of God back.
That's why I think it'simportant to looking at this
from even when we find ourselvesin a spot where we might be

(58:45):
falling away from our faith orfalling away from we think we're
falling away from God.
Right, we feel that way, wefeel that separation.
I think that even in thosemoments, to always have the word
of God close to you.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
Yeah, if you're not going to church anywhere, read
your Bible, yeah exactly I meanread your Bible.
God will speak.
That word is alive.

Speaker 3 (59:11):
Because I mean we talk about too in Genesis,
chapter 1, we know the scriptureGod's design was God.
Created man in his own image,in the image of God Genesis 127,
created he him male and female,created he them.
So that attack from the enemywants to come against your
identity in God, who you are,just like he did with Jesus he

(59:36):
talks about we talked about alsoI want to talk about shame real
quick.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
Yeah, go for it.
So I give this analogy whenpeople don't always know it.
We hear the word shame also abig buzzword, but how it's
connected to your identity is,and some of you guys may know
this.
Guilt says I've done somethingbad, I feel bad about what I've

(59:59):
done.
Shame says I've done somethingbad, I am done.
Shame says I've done somethingbad, I am bad.
So let's say an alcoholic, forexample, they've had a behavior
pattern of substance use and nowtheir identity is I'm an
alcoholic or I'm a drug addict,and that's the lens that they

(01:00:23):
see themselves in, and soeverything in life is based on
that.
And if I'm going to go out androb a bank, I rob a bank.
I make a mistake and Ihopefully learn a lesson from
that Versus.
I rob a bank, I'm a bank robber.

(01:00:44):
My identity is now I'm acriminal for the rest of my life
, right.
And so the devil attacks ouridentity, and we see this
particularly in the transculture, and I'm not trying to
be political here, but I havepersonally known and seen people

(01:01:05):
commit suicide and I am very,very who have been in that
demographic, and so I have adeep, deep passion for that
community, for them tounderstand the identity piece.
Because when the devil canconfuse identity, you have no

(01:01:27):
grounding, you have no tetherback to the Lord and the next
step he comes to still kill anddestroy.
And and I think it's alarminghow much our LGBTQ community is
dying at a rapid pace.
So identity affects all sortsof things.
Even as a backslider thatbecomes an identity, right,

(01:01:53):
because I leave church, I cut myhair, I leave church, I wear
pants and makeup, or I leavechurch and I become a drug
addict, or I become a prostitute, or you know, we said before in
other episodes, when you're abackslider it's anything goes,
because you already know thatyou're sinning and so you
already feel like, oh, I mightas well just do it all.

(01:02:15):
But a backslider can be anidentity and a label that we
wear too, and yet that is notwho God says we are, and we have
to work really hard atrealigning our given identity
that the enemy tries to give tous with what identity God says

(01:02:38):
we are.
So okay, sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:02:42):
No, I want to talk about that realignment section
that you were talking about, therealignment piece.
Sometimes shame causes us,prevents us from hearing from
God in certain moments in ourlives.
Right, and sometimes and when Isay hearing I mean we can

(01:03:03):
actually hear someone speak asermon or a message, or we hear
a song, or whatever the casemight be that would move us,
that would move us right.
And once we start to feelourselves being moved right,
that shame piece kicks in andsays no, no, no, no, no,
Something's wrong with you.
You might as well not evenreach out.
Might as well not even respond.

(01:03:24):
Might as well, not even becauseof all of this other stuff,
right?

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
And that's the devil, that's the intrusive thought
speaking.

Speaker 3 (01:03:30):
That's not you Exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
But you've just grown accustomed to listening to that
voice for so long that youbelieve it.
And that is the power ofintrusive thoughts, is it
becomes a belief.
But the Bible says casting downevery imagination.
Sorry, I got so passionateright there.
Casting down every imaginationthat exalts itself against the

(01:03:55):
knowledge of God becauseintrusive thoughts.
That is the accuser of thebrethren lying to you about who
you are in God when that comesin, especially if you're sitting
in a church service.

Speaker 3 (01:04:07):
Especially, and all of those things, all of those
thoughts that are coming to us,when it boils down to it is
condemnation, self-condemnation,condemnation from the enemy.
And there's a differencebetween when you're sitting in
church, even listening to amessage or listening to a song,
and you feel that unction, right, that's the drawing of the Lord

(01:04:30):
.
God does not push, he doesn'tprod, he doesn't force, he's
gentle.
God is gentle and he draws.
God always draws.
And I think there is thedifference between for us to
kind of identify and go oh yeah,this is the difference is
there's a difference betweencondemnation and conviction.

(01:04:52):
Condemnation says I am bad,right, right, right.
Conviction says come to me.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
I'm so sorry.
I'm so sorry.
I never want to do that again.
That's conviction.
And conviction also.

Speaker 3 (01:05:10):
Not only is there that, piece of it, but it's the
conviction of God that draws usback to Him.
Yes, this has happened.
I know where to go as a resultNot back to shame, but towards
God.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
Right To be able to receive His love and forgiveness
, right To be able to receivehis love and forgiveness, right,
yeah.
So for anyone out there, if youdeal with condemnation, if you
deal with a lot of guilt andself-deprivation, deprecation,
start making a list ofeverything that you're believing

(01:05:40):
, because the enemy is speakingto you and you've owned it as
your own voice, you've owned itas your own thoughts, you've
owned it as your own braintalking to you, and it is not
because it is exactly oppositeof what God says you are.
So start making a list, beaware, become more aware of
whatever those thoughts are andpay attention.

Speaker 3 (01:06:02):
Yeah, because the good.
Actually we are really good atas humans.
We are really good at makingthat negative list right About
ourselves.
I don't have this, I don't havethat.
We're really good at makingthat negative list and we've
lived with it and that's how our, our human nature is right.
It's really difficult to gookay, let's draw a line down

(01:06:26):
that list and on the other side,let's write the good things,
what we do have, what is goingright for us, what we do have
that is productive, that isbeneficial for others, that is
all these other things.
I've talked to people before andsaid you know, people have a
long list of you know what'swrong, right.
And then I go okay, well, let'sjust right here in our session,

(01:06:48):
let's talk about what you havegoing on, you know, do you have
your master's?
Yeah, you know.
Do you own your own business?
Yeah, how long have you beenmarried?
35 years, you know.
So we go on all these thingsand I'm going okay.
So all of these things thatyou're telling me, all these
positive things, are directlycontradicting all the other
stuff that's in the other column.
And then to see sometimes thelook on people's face sometimes

(01:07:12):
it's like it's that aha moment,right.
It's like oh, okay, thisbalances that out Okay, and it's
kind of like a way for us tokind of go I can move forward
from this right.
I don't have to accept all thisstuff that I've carried around
for so long.

Speaker 2 (01:07:27):
Right, yeah, and that's such a simple practice is
.
It is actually gratitude andthankfulness.
You start looking at what youknow, what you do have, what is
left.
Maybe you have you know, likeme, I've been divorced.
Maybe you have had that.
But what's left?
You know what else is.
Maybe you have you know, likeme, I've been divorced.

(01:07:48):
Maybe you have had that.
But what's left?
You know what else is goodabout you.
Are you loving?
Are you compassionate?
Are you gentle?
Are you, you know, intentional?
Are you hardworking, like?
There's so many qualities youknow, but we're taught oh,
that's just being conceited.
You shouldn't do that.
No, the Lord wants us to knowwho we are, because he created

(01:08:12):
us Right and he's placedeverything in us that we're
going to need to live for himand to do the work of him.
So it is critically importantthat we start paying attention
to what is good.

Speaker 3 (01:08:24):
Yeah, another way that the enemy kind of works
against us is kind of pervertingthe role of authority in our
lives.
Romans talks about this inRomans 13, verse 1 through 4.
I'm just going to read throughthis really quick.
I have my Bible on my phone,just like everybody else on the
planet now.
But let every soul be subjectunto the higher powers.

(01:08:53):
Paul's writing, or the writer ofRomans, who is most likely Paul
, for there is no power but ofGod.
The powers that be are ordainedof God.
Whosoever, therefore, resisteththe power, resisteth the
ordinance of God, and they thatresist shall receive to
themselves damnation, for rulersare not a terror to good works
but to the evil.
And then Jesus even spoke andsays in Matthew 18 and 6, but
whoso shall offend one of theselittle ones?

(01:09:14):
Talking about the children thatwere coming to him right, which
believe in me, it were betterfor him that a millstone were
hanged about his neck and thathe were drowned into the depths
of the sea.
So God's design is that parentsshould reflect that protective
nature and nurturing nature ofGod right, that authority.
That's in our lives that welearn when we're very young that

(01:09:36):
they are, they are theauthority in our lives.
My dad was a Marine.

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):
For good for good.
For good for good.

Speaker 3 (01:09:43):
And my dad taught me a great work ethic.
Um, and I think out of hisoutflow, dad, if you're watching
, I remember.
So I remember him teaching mehey, you got to get up in the
morning, you got to get up andyou got to do whatever it is
you're going to do.
You know, even when I waspreaching and it's like you know
, you got to get up, you got tostudy, you got it.
I mean, he didn't tell me this,but that's as a result.

Speaker 2 (01:10:05):
You learned it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:06):
That's why I learned it Because what he would do was
when I was a kid.
I would be laying in the bedjust wanting to sleep and,
military Marine style, he wouldwalk into my room and flick the
lights on and off and he'd saycome, say no, come on, it's time
to get up.
And so, as a result of that,though, I learned a good work
ethic.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
I bet you learned to make your bed in the morning too
, and how to make my bed.

Speaker 3 (01:10:35):
But that is God's design, so that parents are that
authority in our lives, thatprotective, that nurturing
nature in our lives, thatprotective, that nurturing
nature.
But then of course, the enemy'sattack is to break that right,
so that caregivers are brokenand they're used to instill fear
, they're used to instillmistrust, hatred toward

(01:10:56):
authority.
And then that hatred towardthat parental authority
sometimes translates into andI'm sure you've seen it
translates into that hatred forGod.

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
Yeah, rebellion, yeah .
So I think that's that's greatand this is how we respond.
So, um, let's say you had thatcaregiver that was super
authoritarian.
Um, a kiddo.
I want to use myself and mysister as an example.
Um, not that my, my mom or dadwere authoritarian, but there's

(01:11:30):
rules in homes, right.
And when you grow up in church,then there's additional rules
in homes.
And so when you're a kiddo andyou don't understand some of
those rules, or you, you know,in your development, have
questions.
You know, in our environment ofour church culture, there was so

(01:11:50):
much that was just sin and wedid, and my mom and dad were
first generation ChristianPentecost, so they didn't even
have the full revelation orunderstanding.
They were just doing what thechurch told them.
And so when it came to us, theywere just doing what the church
told them, and so when it cameto us, we were just doing what
our parents told them.
And so my sister's response wasshe's the oldest and she

(01:12:13):
responded obediently and she didwhat she was told.
She didn't ask a lot ofquestions, she just kind of
followed the rules.
Well, I did not.
I had questions and I stillhave questions.
I'm the question asker.

(01:12:33):
It's so funny.
My daughter-in-law told me oneday.
She said, maybe don't ask somany questions.
And I'm like oh dagger to to theheart.
I don't know how not to do that.
Yeah, but she was so rightbecause, you know, sometimes it
can be too much.
But I was such a inquisitiveand curious child and I've

(01:12:55):
remained that in my adulthoodthat I just ask a lot of
questions.
And so I asked questions andwhen I didn't like the response,
I became very rebellious, andso my rebellious nature led me
to a place where I didn't trustauthority.
I didn't trust people, I didn't.

(01:13:15):
You know, you can tell me whatyou think, but I'm not going to
believe you.
I'm going to figure it out formyself and then I'm going to do
what I want for myself.
You know, because I didn'ttrust anything by the time I got
into my teen years, becausethings did not make sense for me

(01:13:35):
intellectually, they didn'tclick, and I didn't know how to
deal with that because I was akid, and so people that grow up,
they can respond that's a fight, flight or freeze.
You know I was a kid, and sopeople that grow up, they can
respond that's a fight, flightor freeze.
I was a fighter, I was defiant,I was rebellious.
My sister was not, she wasobedient, she was, dare I say,

(01:14:00):
passive, and I mean passive inthe fact she didn't voice her
concerns or her thoughts, shejust was dutiful and so you know
.
So that could really hinder ourability to connect with
leadership and our ability toconnect with God, because
ultimately we just don't trust.

(01:14:21):
We trust ourself, and the Lordquickly taught me I was fallible
, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:14:28):
Yeah, no, and my wife is.
I clearly married up in therelationship and she is the rule
follower.
She's the one that will do itin the same way as your sister,
and I tend to be the one that isquestioning, sometimes the lie.
You are unlovable, it's yourfault, god abandoned you.

(01:14:51):
That is one of the ways thatthe enemy kind of begins to sow
into our spirits right and kindof give us those core wounds or
those core beliefs that we carrythroughout life, especially if

(01:15:14):
you've been in black sheep Right.
Exactly John 8, 44 says Jesustalking to the Pharisees you are
your father, the devil.
He is a liar and the father ofit.
And so these lies kind of begin,not kind of.
I say kind of a lot becauseanyway that's my personality,

(01:15:34):
but these lies begin to kind of.
I said it again.

Speaker 2 (01:15:38):
It's okay, you just flow.

Speaker 3 (01:15:40):
It begins to form I'm not going to say kind of it
begins to form these internalstrongholds right.
Yeah right that get replaced byGod's truth.
Right.
And part of if you find yourselffalling away from your faith or
even if you are in church.
One of the ways is we're kindof trying to reverse that right

(01:16:02):
when his lies replace God'struth.
Now we want to kind of go backthe other way.
We want his truth to replace,you know, god's truth to replace
his lies, right?
That's what we're kind ofaiming for, right, right.
One of the ways that the enemyattacks is severing safe
attachments.

(01:16:24):
You know, one of my favoritepsalms that you have here in our
show notes here is Psalm 27 and10.
When my father and my motherforsook me, this is the part
that I like the Lord will takeme up.
You know, paul writes in 2Timothy 2, he said, you know, at
my first answer no man stoodwith me, but all men forsook me.

(01:16:45):
And then he says this thisblows my mind.
Paul's awesome.
But he says he says all thesethings he talks about Alexander
the coppersmith, all these kindsof things that happen, he says.
Nevertheless, he said, he saysI pray God that it not be laid
to their charge.
So, he says all these things?
He says that my first answer.

(01:17:05):
In other words, when God firstcalled me, no man stood with me,
but all men forsook me, nevermind, he wrote a huge portion of
the New Testament.
So the guy that nobody stoodwith ends up writing a majority
of the New Testament.
First of all, no man stood withme.
I pray God that it not be laidto their charge.

(01:17:26):
then he says nevertheless, godstood with me right so the lies
that were put into me or saidabout me, right through things
that happened, through thingsthat happened to him.
He says nevertheless, god stoodwith me right, and he shall
deliver me out of every evil.
Work Right.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
And he really does.
Yeah.
You know when we can cross thatdivide and step across that
threshold to be curious aboutGod again and to try him on
again.
He does show up in such apowerful way and does, you know,
do exactly what you said.

Speaker 3 (01:18:09):
Right, because God's design is, for you know, human
attachment prepares the soul toattach to God Right.
And then the strategy of ourenemy is to break human trust.
That also blocks that spiritualtrust, as well, right, right
yeah.
Um, another way that the enemybegins to uh uh, be at work in

(01:18:35):
our lives is blocking spiritualperception in our lives.
So that ability to be curious,that ability to be perceptive of
the Spirit, 2 Corinthians Paulwrites again in 2 Corinthians 4
and 4, he said In whom the Godof this world has blinded the

(01:18:56):
minds of them which believe, notlest the light of the glorious
gospel of Christ, who is theimage of God, should shine unto
them.
So it gives, that blocking notprovides, but it causes that
spiritual numbness, confusion oreven aversion that often arises

(01:19:17):
out of that trauma that wetalked about before, right, and
then Satan blinds the minds andhe begins to stir confusion
about God's not only nature buthis nearness, right, right, how
close he is to us.
When we talk about blockingthat spiritual perception and

(01:19:39):
often arises after trauma howdoes it affect people that you
see that come to you, that talkabout these kinds of things,
talk about trauma that happened?
How does that blocking, thataversion, arise?

Speaker 2 (01:19:55):
Well, when we talk about numbness and um, an
aversion to deal with theirtrauma, um, that kind of looks
like apathy and um, when aperson you know they, they just
don't want to deal with it andand you can't blame them you
know you cannot blame a personfor wanting to put that far, far

(01:20:19):
away and disconnectingthemselves from the sexual abuse
of their father or theirparents' murder or whatever.
Big, big, big horrible thingshappen to children and so when

(01:20:39):
they survive it, the very lastthing they want to do is go back
to it and have to look at itagain because they're, in a way,
different place in life.
Um, but when someone becomesnumb and um, and they just have
an aversion to dealing with anyof it they've just learned to

(01:21:01):
cope with blocking they justblock everything that's going to
affect them, because oneemotion can lead to another
emotion.

Speaker 3 (01:21:14):
The domino that chain effect.

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):
Yeah, and Brene Brown gives the image of an armored
up heart.
So she shows this picture thatfirst you have a whole heart,
perfect by God, and then, uh, afractured heart.
That's where all of the woundscome in, and then the armor that
we place to hold all thosepieces together.
You know that has to begin tocome off, one piece at a time.

(01:21:39):
And so when we, when we preventemotion from coming in because
we don't want to feel anythingthat was resemble our pain, we
also prevent the good coming in.
So people will often block anyemotion, because if I feel good,
my capacity to feel bad is alsothere and they're fearful of

(01:22:04):
that.
So when a person is living inthat type of state in their life
, they're just kind of goingthrough the emotions and just
taking the days as it comes.
It would be very difficult toconnect to God, because God is
wanting to connect with you inan emotional way.
That's where connectednesscomes from, and so I got to be

(01:22:25):
able to let him in, and if I'mnot even letting myself in there
, I'm sure not going to be ableto let God in there, or even a
spouse.
You know that's where tons ofthe avoidance stuff is, in
avoidant attachment.
So it's pretty detrimental to aperson's ability to reconnect
with God Right and even attemptto see God as something good.

Speaker 3 (01:22:50):
And there's always that one even later in life.
I've spoken with some peoplethat even later in life
something traumatic happens,right, people that even later in
life something traumatichappens Right, and it's that
automatic instinct to to go.
You know, I'm putting a wallaround everything and not
letting anybody in, right, right, that's where we jumped to.
And, uh, you know, sometimespeople will say that and I'll go

(01:23:13):
hey, you know what that's.
I get that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:16):
That's a natural response, you know it'll send
you straight to hell, though.

Speaker 3 (01:23:20):
But I'll say it's okay to set up a boundary.
Just in that wall put a littlegate for me.
Yeah.
Just put a little gate in there.
That's great.
Open up that little gate so youcan control what comes in and
out.
Right, so that you, it's aboundary thing right, yeah right
.
Clouden Townsend would say thesame thing, right.
It's that little gate thatallows God in, that allows the

(01:23:42):
good in and keeps the bad out,right, yeah?
Right.
We also talked about how theenemy produces generational
patterns.
So we look at-.

Speaker 2 (01:23:54):
Oh, big subject.

Speaker 3 (01:23:56):
Big subject.
I want to read 2 Corinthians.
Uh, let me, let me back up.
I want to read, uh, galatiansthree, 13.
So when we, when we talk aboutgenerational patterns, um, I
often look at this as not likesome mystical curse right, that
we're talking about, but I lookat it as you know, just as I

(01:24:20):
inherited.
You know, the theological termthat preachers will use is
propensity, right, but really,all Propensity to do something
Right.
So all it is is really, you know, just like I inherited dark
hair and dark eyes, you know,and light skin from my mom,
right, Just as I inherited thosethings from our parents, we

(01:24:44):
inherit those things from ourparents we also inherit the
propensity, the ability forcertain sins to be predominant
in our life, sometimes, Right.
Right, but that is the power ofthe gospel, the power of
someone being saved.
Is what Paul writes inGalatians right.

(01:25:06):
Christ hath redeemed us fromthe curse of the law.
In Galatians 3.13, being made acurse for us.
So on the cross, Christ tookeverything that would be put
upon us.
Right, that's what Paul issaying.
He says, for it is written forus.

(01:25:28):
For it is written cursed iseveryone that hangs on the tree.
But the power of the gospel,then, is in 2 Corinthians 5.17,.
Right.
Therefore, if any man be inChrist, he is a new creature.
Old things are passed away.
Behold, all things are becomenew.
So that is the power of thegospel.

(01:25:49):
But abuse often repeats itselfin families, right?

Speaker 2 (01:25:57):
Yeah, so we don't like to talk about generational
curses.
There are generational cursesand generational blessings and
you know curse is such atriggering word but if we look
at it just in overall familypatterns, familiar patterns, you
see violence trickle downthrough generations, right.

(01:26:20):
You see addiction trickle downthrough the generations
grandparent, parent, person.
We even see out-of-wedlockbirths trickle down through
generations.
We see suicide in generationpatterns.

(01:26:41):
We see um gambling ingenerational patterns and part
of this.
And so it's not just you knowthe bible uses the term
generational curse, but what,what it actually kind of
translates to, is bloodlinepatterns that become.
You know we talked about, Ithink in the first or second

(01:27:02):
episode how nature and nurtureform us, so our nurturing family
of origin.
That is the generational curses.
I believe it's biology as well,because of what Brother Logsdon
said in episode 14 about howthe blood remembers and in

(01:27:25):
epigenetics.
You know, I think epigeneticsproves generational curses but
also proves generationalblessings because cellular
trauma remembers in thebloodline and so we do see that
we are born into families and we, you know, we do have things

(01:27:48):
that are in our bloodline thatgets transferred.
So you know, homosexuality, forexample you know people will
probably dispute this but comesfrom either sexual abuse in a
family or there is extendedgenerational patterns of

(01:28:12):
homosexuality.
That then gets transferred andsame, you know, with all of that
kind of stuff.
But we see it in generationalblessings too, right, we have
generational Christians,generational preachers,
generational wealth,generational health, right,

(01:28:37):
where parents had a lifestyle ofhealthy eating and fitness.
Kids grow up learning how tohave a lifestyle of healthy
eating or fitness or whateverthe case may be.
But the bloodline piece is socentral to the cross because
we're born in sin, so whateveris in our bloodline if you come
from a family of gang membersand in this area we have that so

(01:29:00):
so much.

Speaker 3 (01:29:01):
Whatever's modeled in front of you, you're going to
carry on.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:04):
Right, right, and usually you can trace it back
through more than one or twogenerations.
That's why it's called that.
But the cross came to undo allof that.
When we get baptized in thename of Jesus, we take on the
work of the cross, you know, andwe get filled with the Holy

(01:29:25):
Spirit.
His blood covers all of that.
So, whatever was attached to mybloodline no longer is going to
be true for me, right, right,yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:29:35):
Yeah, the power of the cross is there to break all
of those things that we have,that are in our lives, that are
passed on, that we've eitherpassed on through bloodline or
that passed on through.
Just hey, I watched my fatherdo this and that looks like what

(01:29:55):
true love looks like, or that'swhat family looks like, or
that's what coping looks like,so I'm going to do the same
thing, and so it kind of carrieson and perpetuates through that
.
Or I look, I saw, you know, mymom was this, and so I'm going
to do this because that's what Isaw growing up, and so that
must be what real family, thatmust be what real love looks

(01:30:16):
like.
So I'm going to do the samething, yeah, and then the power
of God, the power of the gospel,can break that.
We also looked at or not lookedat.
Looking at how the enemy looksor how the enemy is at work in

(01:30:36):
our lives is fomenting kind ofself-destruction.
So trauma increases that riskfor addiction.
We're kind of talking aboutaddiction, suicide, rage,
spiritual despair, and theenemy's goal is to steal, like
we're talking about.
We've mentioned several timesright, steal, kill and destroy

(01:30:57):
is to steal, like we're talkingabout we've mentioned several
times right, steal, kill anddestroy, steal peace, kill
identity and destroy any senseor any purpose, any destiny
right that someone might have intheir lives.
And you look at John, chapter10 and 10, it's right there.
You know, the thief cometh notbut for to steal, kill and to
destroy.

(01:31:18):
I have come that they mighthave life and that they might
have it more abundantly.
I think that I enjoy readingthe gospel so much because Jesus
always balances out.
You know, I always tell people,you know why, when you're

(01:31:39):
talking with somebody, havingcommunication with somebody, why
accentuate the negative Rightand, for example, don't forget
to take out the trash.
Right, if I tell somebody don'tforget to take out the trash,
what that person hears is forget, take out trash.
Right.
But if I say, hey, remembertoday's trash day.
Like my wife tells me a lotremember, today is trash day,

(01:32:00):
remember to take out the trashRight right.
If you emphasize remember, thenit's like I hear remember, take
out trash.
Okay, I'm probably going to doit Right.
If I hear, don't forget, I'mprobably going to forget, Right,
right.

Speaker 2 (01:32:14):
And I'm just going to plug.
This is a great plug fortherapy, because we don't come
by all this naturally.
We don't learn to speak thisway.
Naturally we have to sort ofunlearn, um, our, our most
common instincts, you know, andrelearn ways to communicate in a
healthy way and in a proper waythat invites connection.

(01:32:36):
And so therapy isn't justcoming and saying, hey, I have a
problem and you're going to fixit for me.
I think it's exactly theopposite, you know, it's just to
maybe see yourself through adifferent lens, to where then
you can begin to apply that anddo the work at home yourself.
Right, it's it not that, atleast in my approach to therapy

(01:33:00):
and your approach, kelly, we'renot here to fix anything.
We're not here to have ananswer that you don't have.
We are here to help you seeyourself wherever you might be
and reframe it for you so thatyou can take that and say, oh,
okay, maybe that makes a lot ofsense.
I didn't see it that way.

(01:33:21):
And then you got something towork with.
And so communication, like it'seasy for us to sit here and
tell you how to talk, but if youknew my background, like it is
a living miracle, I am a livingmiracle that I even get to do
this job.
You know that I even get to dothis job, you know.
But I've had to learn and God,in His grace, has just taught me

(01:33:41):
.

Speaker 3 (01:33:42):
He is the great teacher you know, and so
emphasizing the positive is kindof the hallmark, not always,
but kind of how Jesuscommunicated unless he's talking
to Pharisees and other passages, but he always talks about.
You know, in this verse ofScripture he talks about how the

(01:34:04):
thief is coming to steal, killand to destroy, and it's almost
like you could put the word butin there, right, and a lot of
times we do put that in therewhen we're quoting this, but
it's actually not there.
Actually, I almost said it whenI was reading it here, but I am
come that they might have lifeand that they might have it more
abundantly.
So it's that, it's that, it'sthat I know what the enemy is

(01:34:26):
doing.
But here is what I can do insomeone's life.
Here's what I have come tobring in someone's life.

Speaker 2 (01:34:33):
And that's what you said earlier, both things being
true at the same time.
You know, there is always apositive and a negative, and I
use the analogy a lot of theseasons, right?
If there is winter, there'ssurely going to be summer, and
if there is night, there'salways going to be day.
It's the dichotomy.
And so if there is somethingbad, there is always going to be

(01:34:57):
something good.
But you might have to work alittle harder to look for it,
because it's not our instinctivenature to just look at the good
.
Our instinctive nature, becausewe live in a fallen world, is
to look at the bad first.
But both are always going to bepresent if we have eyes to see.
And that takes us back to, Ithink, the last thing is how the

(01:35:20):
enemy blinds our eyes to beable to see the truth about
ourself and about God.

Speaker 3 (01:35:28):
Right, absolutely, because when those things are
removed from our eyes Paul talksabout the scales were removed
from my eyes, in other words,the veil, the thing that got
between me and seeing when thatthing you were talking about,
the veil In other words, theveil, the thing that got between
me and seeing.

Speaker 2 (01:35:40):
Yeah, the veil right.

Speaker 3 (01:35:41):
When that thing you were talking about, the veil
earlier in this episode, right?
So when that gets removed, thenI can see things as they really
are, exactly, you know.
And the Spirit of the Lord God.
One of my favorite scripturesis Isaiah 61, 1 through 3, right
.
One of my favorite scripturesis Isaiah 61, 1 through 3, right
.
The Spirit of the Lord God isupon me because he hath sent me

(01:36:03):
to heal the brokenhearted, tobind the brokenhearted, to give
unto them beauty for ashes, theoil of joy for mourning.
That whole section of scriptureis one of my favorite because
it emphasizes how Jesus came toheal, obviously, the
brokenhearted and destroy thatenemy, the enemy's work.
Right, right, and to set up anew hope.

(01:36:28):
Not set up, but to bring a newhope to mankind.
Right, because hope is in thefuture.
Right, right, hope is down theroad, something great's going to
happen and sometimes, whenwe're in our present, no matter
where we are, that's the messagewe need.

Speaker 2 (01:36:46):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:36:46):
Because faith is right now Right, right and, but
sometimes which we just learned.

Speaker 2 (01:36:51):
Which we just learned .

Speaker 3 (01:36:52):
Yeah, yeah, so hope is down the road, and sometimes
I need that message where I am,yeah, right, because what that
does is, not only do I havefaith that something's going to
happen right now I'm going tomake a step, but I also have
that hope that God's going to bewith me on this process.
Right, god's going to be withme down this road as I move

(01:37:14):
toward him.

Speaker 2 (01:37:14):
Yeah, yeah, and I, you know, my heart really goes
out to the people who, uh, whohave turned away from the Lord
and, if not in relationship, ormaybe they just are hurt.
Um, you know, and this, if youguys see our website or any of

(01:37:36):
our, you know the attachments,the descriptions, our scripture
verse is Luke 4.18, that Jesuscame to preach the gospel to the
poor, to bind up thebrokenhearted, to open the eyes
of the blind and to set atliberty those that are captive.
And to set at liberty thosethat are captive.

(01:37:58):
And everything that we'vetalked about in the way the
enemy works against a humanheart, you know, because of hurt
and trauma, is all encompassingin that one scripture, because
people will fall into one ofthose categories.

Speaker 3 (01:38:18):
Which is a restating.
Jesus is restating Isaiah 61,yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:38:24):
And so people will always fall into one of those
categories.
You're either dealing with abroken heart, you've believed
something and have blindnessabout your true identity because
you believed a lie.
Because you believed a lie, oryou're captive to a lifestyle of

(01:38:44):
addiction or criminal activityor abuse or just self-harm or
whatever it could be, becauseonce you become captive, it
really takes deliverance.
When Paul was in prison whichis what a captive is it took the

(01:39:12):
angel of the Lord to open theprison doors to set him free.
When you become enslaved tosomething, deliverance is
required, and that can only comefrom Jesus, because that means
you can't get yourself out of it, you cannot help yourself, it
needs.
But you have to be able to havethe forethought to say I need
deliverance, I am a captive tothis.

(01:39:33):
To that I mean.
Pornography, I think, is such agreat example of captivity,
because pornography is one ofthose things that affects an
alarming rate in women, butdefinitely males.
Right, people become captive tobecause it has created such a

(01:40:00):
stronghold and they've learnedfrom such an early age that it
has become ingrained in who theyare, what they are, what they
do, how they find their release,how they find validation, and
so you know, I personallybelieve that that particular
thing requires deliverance.
But you have to be able torecognize your need for

(01:40:22):
deliverance.
And so, you know, we read thatscripture Luke 4.18, so easily,
but we don't sit out and reallyintricately tweeze it apart and
apply it to all the areas oflife that people are living.
But if you are out there, there, and if any of the things that

(01:40:43):
we have said is resonated withyou, I would encourage you to
just say a simple prayer and askGod to one Lord, please forgive
me, because I need you to hearme.
You know I, I, I need you tohear me.
You know I need you and I wantto find out who you are now.

(01:41:08):
I mean, my cousin Keith wassitting in a jail cell and said
God, if you're real, I need youto show me.
And man God filled him with theHoly Ghost because God will
rise, he will rise to theoccasion, because he desires to
have a relationship.
And I think that just prayingLuke 4.18 would just do a lot

(01:41:32):
for a person.
Because you know, lord, yousaid that you came to heal the
brokenhearted, you came topreach the gospel to the poor.
And I am poor.
I am poor in spirit.
I don't have much in my spiritto offer, or even to believe,
but when you begin to pray that,when you really begin to pray,

(01:41:52):
scripture man, the Lord is justgoing to come in and begin to
work on you if you will just beopen to let him Right, and he
does it.

Speaker 3 (01:42:04):
When you're talking about Paul being released from
prison, my mind went also backto Peter.
That's why I was looking uphere in Acts, chapter 12.
When Peter was released fromprison, the church was praying
Right, right, and thatrestoration process as you make
the steps, god, or thatrestoration, that returning
process, right, god is going toopen every obstacle, but we have

(01:42:29):
to make that step right.
He's going to meet us at everyobstacle because it says you
know, when Peter was releasedfrom prison, right, he went to
the first gate right or firstward right, and then God took
care of that.

Speaker 2 (01:42:44):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:42:44):
He went out to the second ward God took care of
that.
Then he went to the iron gatethat leads to the city God took
care of that.
Then he led him two streetspast that so he wouldn't be
recaptured Right.
And then led him straight tothe church Right, and then led
him straight to the church Right.
So as we begin to step, godopens up every obstacle that
starts to come our way.

Speaker 2 (01:43:05):
But again, it's that making that first step and the
reason it requires the step isbecause he gives us free will,
right?
And Brother Pierce, charlesPierce used to say years ago God
is a gentleman.
And Brother Logsdon, when hewas here, ministered to me and

(01:43:26):
he said to me again God is agentleman.
God is never going to force hiswill upon us.
He's never going to push you toa point you don't want to go.
He's going to be willing totake you you don't want to go.
He's going to be willing totake you wherever you do want to
go.
But it does require us to engagein the process.
He's not going to sit fromheaven and just do all the

(01:43:48):
things for us that he's promisedto do in scripture.
Those promises are real andthey are for us.
But it requires ourparticipation because it's just
like living in a marriage.
Every single day I have to I'mnot married anymore, but you are

(01:44:09):
and every single day you haveto get up and you have to choose
.
To be intentional with yourwife.
You have to choose to, you know, give her a kiss and and pray
with her and tell her that youlove her and call her throughout
the day, because it is arelationship.

Speaker 3 (01:44:26):
It's easy for me to do.

Speaker 2 (01:44:29):
And so God requires that, because he wants our free
will, he wants us.
We choose him.
He's going to show up everysingle time.
Our inability to take the stepsand our inability to choose him
is usually rooted in our fearand our distrust of whether or

(01:44:51):
not God's going to show up.
But listen, I am a high schooldropout.
I've said that before.
I didn't just drop out, I wasactually kicked out because I
had failing grades.
And today I have a master'sdegree.
And that is not because I am sosmart.

(01:45:11):
It is because God is so good,because I believed.
Until pretty much till I was 28years old.
I was the black sheep.
I was the black sheep.
I was the troublemaker.
I'd already had two drunkdrivings and I already had a
divorce and a child and I hadfailing events.
There was nothing in me tobelieve that I could actually be

(01:45:36):
a vessel of honor for the Lord,you know.
But I did have a broken heartand I came to church one day and
the preacher preached on Luke4.18.
And in that moment God bound upmy broken heart and began the
restoration process.
It's taken me a long time toget here and I still got a long

(01:45:59):
way to go, and that's the humanjourney.
But you know, again, it isn'tbecause I am so good, it's
because God began to reveal tome, when he began to heal me,
what he placed in me and you.

(01:46:19):
That rebellion that I had wasactually a thirst for truth, and
I did not know that until many,many, many years later.
It's not an excuse forrebellion, but it is an
illustration of how God makesall things good, right, right,
but we've got to be willing totake a step.

(01:46:41):
I can't stress that enough foryou that are out there.
I promise, and if you listen toany of the testimonies on this
podcast, taking the first stepis the hardest step, right, but
God will show up.

Speaker 3 (01:46:58):
Yeah, every time, every time.

Speaker 2 (01:47:01):
Kelly, I wanted to end.
I don't know if you haveanything to add to that, but I
wanted to end with a list ofnames of who God is.
Sounds good.
The Bible talks a lot about theaspects of God, and so I
started with El Roy.
I don't know if that's how yousay it, el Roy, and that's the

(01:47:24):
God who sees.
And that's what you weretalking about.
Am I even significant?
Do I even hold any value?
And Hagar said because I won'tgive you the whole Bible story.
And Hagar said because I won'tgive you the whole Bible story.
But Hagar was kicked out of thehouse of Abraham because she
had Ishmael and Ishmael was notthe chosen seed that Isaac was.

(01:47:53):
And she said and God came toher and saw her.
And she said you are the Godthat sees.
So God sees us everywhere,wherever we are.
But do you want to read thisElohim, god the mighty creator?
Do you want to go through thisSure?

Speaker 3 (01:48:09):
Sounds good.
Yeah, no.
Elohim, god, the mighty creator, emphasizes God's power and
God's sovereignty.
Yahweh, jehovah, lord, I am whoI am.
The Lord, I am who I am, I am.
He speaks to that in Exodus 3and 14.

(01:48:30):
Moses is saying they're notgonna believe me.
Who should I say?

Speaker 2 (01:48:38):
And I am, that I am and he is the.
I am means whatever I need,whatever it is, right now I have
it.

Speaker 3 (01:48:43):
And notice it wasn't I am.
It wasn't I was, I shall be.
It was wherever you are rightnow.

Speaker 2 (01:48:48):
That's what I am, I'm your healer, I'm your provision
, yep.
I am your restorer, I am all ofthese things, yep.

Speaker 3 (01:48:56):
I don't know, I uh Lord or master, uh, obviously
it's significant, signifying uh,lord's, god's Lordship, uh and
his authority in our lives andsometimes, you know it's
difficult you know we weretalking about a lot of different
things today and sometimes it'sdifficult for us as humans to
go.
You know, hey, hey, maybe I hada negative experience with

(01:49:16):
authority in our lives and it'sdifficult sometimes to put him
in that authority position inour lives.
But I think ultimately, when weget to that place and it's a
process sometimes but when weget to that place, I think it
makes that the struggle, makesputting him in authority over
our lives, so much more powerful.

Speaker 2 (01:49:38):
Right, because he's a trusted authority and as that
trusted authority, he's going tofight your battles Right.
He's going to protect you, heis going to rescue you, he is
going to be all the great thingsthat authority should have
represented but did not, yep.

Speaker 3 (01:49:57):
El Shaddai, god Almighty, and I'll go through
some of these as well.
Yahweh Rapha, the Lord whoheals, that's one of my favorite
ones.
Exodus 15 and 26 denotes God'spower to heal Not only heal
physically, but heal spiritually, heal mentally, I think.

(01:50:18):
Sometimes I've, you know,traveling.
I traveled for about 15 yearsfull-time evangelizing and, uh,
one of the things that I mean, Imean I, you know, I've seen
people get out of wheelchairs,wheelchairs.
I've seen people, um, you know,I've seen healings.
I've seen, you know, I hadactually when, when, uh, brother

(01:50:39):
Logsdon was talking about, youknow, praying for someone that
wanted to have a child.
The same thing happened to uswhen we were evangelizing and a
couple came down to the altarand they said you know, we've
been trying, it's just nothappening.
Will you pray for us?
And almost the exact samescenario as what he described in
revival and prayed for them,forgotten that I had prayed and

(01:51:03):
a few months later, you know,the couple came back to the same
church.
We were back at the same churchand they said, hey, we're
pregnant.
You know, and then, probablyseveral months later, right, we
came back to the same churchagain and they had their child
with them.
You know, so, the Lord.
So I've seen all these things.
I've seen, you know, thesephysical things that God has

(01:51:25):
done.
But for me the more I thinkthat I was thinking about this
the other day some of the thingsthat probably impact me the
most is the spiritual things.
Yeah.
You know, I saw, there was onetime we were, we were in a
revival down in los angeles andI was, I was preaching and I,
you know, sometimes we tellpeople, you know, you got to

(01:51:47):
look a certain way before youcome to god, right, which is I,
I don't.
You don't have to get cleanbefore you take a shower, right,
like brother loxon was sayingthe other day, right?
And so this guy had come downand he wanted to receive the
Holy Ghost and he had piercingseverywhere nose, ears, eyebrows,

(01:52:08):
everywhere and I was like youknow what this guy's coming.
We talked through repentance.
We talked through what it meant.
We prayed a prayer ofrepentance together and I went
to put my hand on his foreheadto pray for him and as I did
that, he stopped me and he goeswait a second.
And he stopped in the middle ofthe altar service there, took

(01:52:28):
everything out.
Oh, wow.
Laid it on the altar, lifted upboth his hands and he looked at
me.
He goes now.
I'm ready.
Wow.
And literally.
I put my hand on his foreheadand God filled him now I'm ready
Wow.
And literally I put my hand onhis forehead and he got filled
with the Holy Ghost.
Right there it was, just didn'thave to work it up.
He was like you know what?
Hey, hang on a second.
This means something to me, youknow, and I I need to lay it

(01:52:50):
down, and lay down what thismeans to me.
Right, and he says he just looksat me, he nods he goes, now I'm
ready.
And he just looks at me, henods he goes, now I'm ready.
Wow.
Yeah.
So those kinds of things, theLord that heals those kinds of
things to me, those kinds ofhealings right are the things
that stick out in my mind themost.
Yahweh Nisi, the Lord is mybanner.

(01:53:13):
God gives us victory in battlevictory in battle.

Speaker 2 (01:53:23):
And I think of that, like you know, a neon sign over
us.
Like you know, in the spiritrealm that God is fighting for
us and the banner is goingbefore us.
It's seen, it's felt, it'sknown.
Without it, you know, being soovert like we are going to have
the victory.

Speaker 3 (01:53:38):
Yeah, I'm a fan of of history.
I love reading about history,specifically roman history and
one of the things that, um, whenthey went into battle you know
we see it sometimes in in filmand stuff like that but uh, when
they went into battle theywould carry the banner of the
legion right whatever legionthere was, you know you, you
would see it.
It's a red, you know uh flag,that kind of hangs down.

(01:54:01):
It has a symbol on the front, aneagle on top, different types
of symbols on it, but anyway,depending on the Legion, anyway.
So the thing was is in battle,someone would always hold the
banner up so that no matterwhere they were in the battle
losing, winning, kind of inbetween someplace they would
always have some place to goback to and regroup and fight

(01:54:25):
the enemy again.
So when I hear the Lord is mybanner, that's what I think of.
No matter where we are in ourstruggle in life we see the
banner.
The Lord is our banner.
We have that common touch pointto go back to and go.
I need to regroup, I need tosee him again.
Now I can go back and fightanother day.
The Lord is my banner.

(01:54:46):
Of course, yahweh Shalom.
The Lord is peace.
God is the source of all peace.
Judges 624.
He's the Prince of Peace, he'sthe Prince of Peace, the mighty
God, everlasting Father, thePrince of Peace, prince of Peace
.
He's the Prince of Peace.
You know, the mighty God,everlasting Father, the Prince
of Peace, yahweh Ra'ah.
Some of these, I don't rememberhow to say.

Speaker 2 (01:55:04):
Yeah, that's good, you don't have to say them all.

Speaker 3 (01:55:08):
Jehovah and Yahweh is the same it's just different
translation.
Yeah, the Lord is my shepherd,and then that is the pastoral
care and guidance of God, godbeing our shepherd.
There's so many the story ofbeing a shepherd and how the

(01:55:30):
shepherd goes after the sheepand how the shepherd protects
the sheep.

Speaker 2 (01:55:34):
And how the sheep know his voice.

Speaker 3 (01:55:36):
And how the sheep know his voice and the story of
the 99 that Jesus tells.
I mean, there's so many thingsthat we could go into about
being a shepherd.
I think it's no coincidence atall that God calls David, who
proved himself first as being ashepherd and then makes him a
king.

Speaker 2 (01:55:55):
And I studied once what sheep meant when I first
rededicated my life and I wasnot surprised, but also
surprised that sheep are thedumbest animal they are, and
this was in a biblicaldictionary that it said that the

(01:56:15):
sheep are so dumb they will runoff a cliff without even
knowing.
They will run to their deathoff a cliff if a shepherd is not
there to reel them back in.
And the church is oftencorrelated with sheep and I
thought man, lord, what doesthat really say about us?

(01:56:36):
And, more importantly, whatdoes it say about God that, no
matter how dumb we can be inwhat we do or the decisions we
make, we have a shepherd that'salways pulling us back, going
after us, you know, constantlycovering with his mercy and his
grace our dumbness.

Speaker 3 (01:56:59):
And you know, going back to kind of what I was
talking about, sometimes wecreate walls around us and I
mentioned to one person I said,just put a little gate in there.
Right, yeah.
So looking at how a shepherdprotects the sheep at night,
right yeah.
They go into the pen or thelittle area, the stone enclosure
basically, and there's oneopening into it and the shepherd

(01:57:23):
sleeps in the opening.
Wow, to make sure that thesheep are protected.
Yeah.
And then, of course, jehovah, orYahweh Sitkanu, the Lord our
righteousness, the Lord ourrighteousness.

Speaker 2 (01:57:46):
Jeremiah 23 and 6 talks about God's provision of
righteousness for us.
Yeah, so we hear the wordrighteousness in Christian
circles, but for people whodon't always know what that
means, righteousness is doingthe right thing, doing what is
right, and God is a righteousGod, which you know.
We talk about him being a just,equally just and equally love.

(01:58:08):
You know, when it comes down tobeing righteous, it's about
doing what is right.
You know, and so God will rightthe wrongs in our life,
absolutely.
There's so many things aboutGod, and I mean he is the healer

(01:58:28):
, he is the wonderful counselor,he is the mighty God, he is the
Prince of Peace, he is ourrefuge, he is our strong tower,
and I've told people before,because this is how the Lord
taught me how do we know him inthese ways, unless there is a
need that creates us to?

Speaker 3 (01:58:49):
know him Unless we experience it right.

Speaker 2 (01:58:50):
You know, I have to be sick to know him as a healer.
I have to be afraid to run to astrong tower.
You know, I need him to be myrefuge and my strength when I am
depleted and empty and I can'tsee what's in front of me.
I mean, there's so many thingsthat the Lord shows up and I

(01:59:13):
have even seen him make a tablefor me in the presence of my
enemy.
I have experienced thatfirsthand and it was so
marvelous.
It was just so marvelous and Ithink if we are looking for
God's hand in our life, we willfind it.

(01:59:35):
Absolutely.
And Brother Arlogson said in oneof our episodes look low, and
that's what someone taught me.
You know, when we cannot alwayssee, if we just start looking
at the little things, the simplethings, the daily things, you
will see the hand of God workingin your life, absolutely.
So, yeah, so God's plan for usis to restore, you know,

(02:00:14):
absolutely.
Restoration is bringing allthings together and restoring
what the enemy has stolen.
And I believe that as we beginto look at ourselves and we
begin to address these deeperissues that could be inhibiting
us and blocking us from the workthat God wants to do in our

(02:00:36):
life, if we just go back to thetruth of His Word because he
tells us who we are in Him andhe tells us who he is to us our
choice is to believe it andapply it and walk by faith in
that right.
I may not feel like I'm adaughter sometimes, I may not

(02:00:59):
feel like his promises are yeaand amen sometimes, but I can
choose to believe it with faithor I can choose to fear it with
mistrust, and that's where freewill comes in, because both
exist, but it's my choice whichone I'm going to choose.
And so we just learn how towalk this out one day at a time

(02:01:21):
and really practice applying.
I'm not going to believe italways, and that's where we
don't walk by feelings, we don'twalk by sight.
That's what the Bible ismeaning by that.
I can't trust what I feel,because right now I don't feel
anything.
I have to believe what theBible says is true, and that's a

(02:01:41):
process.
It doesn't happen overnight.

Speaker 3 (02:01:43):
No, it doesn't.
You know, he refathers when youwere talking about I don't
always feel like a daughter, Idon't always feel like a son,
but he refathers that andrefathers us right, right and
establishes that connectionagain.
He renews that connection,restores that identity I think I

(02:02:04):
was talking about in the firstepisode.
Sometimes at the end of prayerI'll just open up my Bible and
I'll say God, show me how yousee me, because how I see me
right now is not very great.
It's kind of in the negative andso it's part of that other side
right, I can either trust or Ican be afraid of it, right.

Speaker 2 (02:02:24):
Takes practice.

Speaker 3 (02:02:25):
Right.
And so I'm like and I tellpeople it's going to take
practice and you're not going toget it right every time, Right?

Speaker 2 (02:02:49):
And it's okay if you don me and God always comes
through in terms of achievement,maybe, and status, and I was
allowed to become the thingsthat I aspired to become, that I
thought were important, that Ithought was valuable, and God is

(02:03:09):
so good in His love for us heallowed me to do that.
But, man, of all the thingsI've had, all the things I've
seen, all the places I've been,there is nothing I would never
go back to that ever, because itwas empty.
There's nothing that holdsvalue for me beyond God, except,

(02:03:32):
of course, my family.
But God is so much moreabundant than these things that
we attribute to as value in theworld, and I think the best kept
secret is the Bible.
I think it's a treasure troveof jewels and treasure that, man

(02:03:55):
, no matter where you findyourself, if you will just pick
up your Bible and start readingit, the Lord, you will be amazed
at what you find in there.
I'm amazed, actually.
Yes, yeah, so anything else youwant to say before we end.

Speaker 3 (02:04:10):
We've been talking so long.
I could talk for another twohours yeah.
And when you start talkingabout this kind of stuff.
It's like yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:04:17):
It just kind of snowballs into so many other
things.
So if you're out there and youlike this kind of content, would
you let us know in the commentsor reach out to us in email,
because we could do more likethis.
We will continue to interviewbacksliders and talk about what
led them away and their journeyback to God, but there is so

(02:04:41):
much more to talk about too injust the Christian journey.
So I want to give you guys whatwould be beneficial to you and
where you're at in this place inlife, and so we can only know
that if you let us know.
So our website again is theredeemedbacksliderorg, and also

(02:05:06):
we get all the comments.
So please let us know in that,like, follow, share all the good
things and until next time.
Thank you for watching.
We really appreciate it.
Bye, thanks everyone.

Speaker 1 (02:05:19):
We are so glad you joined us.
If you have a story ofredemption or have worn the
label of a backslider, we wouldlove to hear from you.
If you'd like to support ourministry, your donation will be
tax deductible.
Visit our website attheredeemedbacksliderorg.
We hope you will tune in forour next episode.

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