What About The "Standards" TRB #38 Pastor Jeremy Cain

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider.
With your host, Kathy Chastain,Christian-based psychotherapist
and redeemed backslider.
This podcast is dedicated tothose who have wandered but are
ready to return to thelife-changing power of grace and
the freedom found in Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 (00:22):
Hi, welcome to the Redeem Backslider.
I'm your host, Kathy Chastain.
I'm a Christian-basedpsychotherapist and I'm a
Redeemed Backslider.
I'm trying really hard not tolaugh because my cousin is
sitting here with me laughing.
I know you're trying really hardnot to laugh as I open up.
But with me today is my pastor.
And um and I've said thisbefore, he's my family member

(00:46):
too.
So, you know, uh, I say thatonly because I might slip and
call him by his name, but he ismy pastor, and um I'm very
grateful for that today.
So uh we are going to broach areally difficult subject today,
um, the quote unquote standardsof being in an apostolic church.

(01:09):
And I wanted to talk to himabout this because when I came
back, his approach with me wasvery loving and what I needed
for many reasons, which maybewe'll get into, maybe we won't.
But I have heard as I've hadthese podcasts and as I've

(01:29):
talked to backsliders, um everysingle conversation, if it's a
female and sometimes males, comeback to how we live as
apostolics.
And I I think that even for me,this subject is touchy, and I
know it it's been touchy forsome that's come back.

(01:52):
So I wanted you to hear from mypastor and his heart um as we
move forward, and um, we're justgonna go from there.
So thanks for doing this again.

SPEAKER_02 (02:04):
It's I'm I'm really glad to be here again, Calf.
It's so much fun, and um I'm sovery proud of the the work
you're doing here, and uh itsreach is incredible to see um
I've heard so many good reportsback from very strange sources.
I'm like, what you've seen thatand just people have come

(02:26):
because uh what you're doing isreally touching a very wide,
wide audience.
And I think the backslider umcan get lost in the shuffle of a
church that's moving on andgoing forward.
But I just appreciate you justyou know taking the time to
really reach back to people whohave have a real heart toward

(02:48):
God and maybe trying to healsome of those hurts that cause
them to go away.
So it's a beautiful, beautifulthing to see.
And I just want to congratulateyou on the incredible job you're
doing.
Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
Means a lot, means a lot.
Um, so I want the audience tohear the heart of a pastor, at
least my pastor.
I I know we can't speak forothers out there, but you you
have a you you talk to manyother pastors, you know pastors,

(03:19):
you are in in community withthem.
Um what is your heart about thebackslider?
What are you seeing?
We've had I was counting about10 backsliders that have come
back in the last I I wasthinking like two years, you
know, um, that's just come backto our church.

(03:40):
And I I think 10 is a largenumber.
What are your what are yourthoughts on that?
Is that a large number?
What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 (03:48):
I think locally, yes.
I think it is.
I think it is.
I like I said, I think your yourreach in this podcast is well
beyond the local.
You're talking what's happenedin our church, and I'm you know,
I'm pretty, pretty amazed atthat because the the backslider
has a tendency to be writtenoff.
Like, well, that's just they'rejust choosing that way, they

(04:09):
just will never be back.
And so when they when they comeback and their heart is open and
God just remolds them, youthink, wow, that's it's it's so
amazing.
It's and it's such a seeminglyquick work that God does.
And you don't realize that Godhas been working on them the
whole time, He's been watchingover them the whole time, and
and so to see them back locallyis it's always miraculous.

(04:32):
And it's I guess it's alwayskind of dumbfounding.
Like, man, I thought I thoughtyou could never come back from
that.
Wow, you know, I mean, like youI don't know if it's just so it
feels shocking to see them comeback.
I think it's shocking the onesthat come back, yeah.
And the ones that you think, oh,they're they're not far from the
kingdom, they're right there,they're right on the and and

(04:54):
those seem to just teeter righton the edge and just leave, you
know, and leave a lot of thatundone.
And then you see these ones thatjust kind of way, way, way out
of bounds, and you think youjust can't recover from that
situation, and those are theones that come back, and they're
just you know, they're all in,they're just on the cusp of just

(05:17):
the very cutting edge of whatGod is doing in the church, and
they're just so happy to behome.
You think I sure didn't see thatcoming.
Yeah, you know, and that's howyou, I mean, I I guess it's how
you really know it's a Godthing, is like you thought,
because in from all humanperspective, you look at it and
go, This is impossible.
And then God steps in and and uhyou see them just make this

(05:38):
incredible, incredible change,and you think, wow, that's the
least like likely candidatecomes back.
It's pretty amazing.

SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
Yeah, I feel like it's really miraculous.
I mean, I I think myself,because I know who I was, it's
just a miracle what God has doneand what he's still doing,
because I know I would havenever seen this or or even my
career field like as a highschool dropout, I would have

(06:08):
never in a million years thoughtI would be sitting in a chair in
a position to help someone else,you know, because I was I was so
uh undone in my own life.
And I feel like every backsliderstory is a miracle of God and
his redemption towards them.

(06:29):
And the some of the ones we'veseen in the church, like like
Keith and Carrie and Raina, andjust there's so many others,
each of those stories I feel isjust God's I want to say
sovereignty, yeah, his handmoving in each of those lives
because the longevity of how farhow long they were gone, the

(06:52):
depravity of how far they wentbeing gone.
All of us really, you know, itjust looks different on each
person.

SPEAKER_02 (07:00):
Yeah, yeah.
It's such a beautiful thingthat's what I think that's
what's the greatest thing islike God it truly shows that God
loves performing miracles.

SPEAKER_01 (07:11):
Like he just takes we just don't always recognize
it as that.

SPEAKER_02 (07:15):
Yeah, and you do you just see it in people's eyes
when they come back to come backto God, they come back to that
relationship, come back home.
Um, it's such a beautiful thingto see.
And like you said, it's it's theones that are three sheets to
the wind, and you almost writeit off.
You're talking a little bitabout yourself, and because
we're you know, we're family,that um, you know, growing up, I

(07:38):
think you might have mentioneduh, you know, growing up
together, I was able to watchyour life from a a distance, you
know, and and uh maybe you don'tsee its effect, but over time I
saw you go in and out ofdifferent situations and
struggles and stuff like that,and watching you grow up, that
was a you think, oh man, youknow, oh well this mistake's too

(08:00):
far, this mistake's too far.
So to see what God has justcompletely uh, you know,
rerouted your life to to justthis, you know, walk with him
and and using you in this inthis uh ministry to ch change
lives is just incredible to see.
And it's only a it's only thehand of the Lord.
It's only the hand of the Lord.

SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
So well, I think you said at Thanksgiving you said,
oh, this girl is wild.
And it's so funny to hearsomeone else's observation, you
know.
But I was I was crazy.
Yeah, uh-huh.
That's so diplomatic.

SPEAKER_02 (08:40):
Well, you know, I I think about it like when we were
growing up, I say, you know,when I'm in my teenage years,
you're in your early 20s,somewhere in there.

SPEAKER_01 (08:51):
Yeah, I think you're eight years younger, nine years
younger.

SPEAKER_02 (08:54):
So like whenever you would come, you know, from
wherever you were uh back homefor you know Christmas or
Thanksgiving, it was always youknow, like complete change.
I remember when you know yourhair was like short on the sides
and then it was up, and I meanit was very, very fashionable

(09:17):
for the day, very in in stepwith you know, whatever was
going on in the world, whateverwith height of fashion and
beauty and all these kind ofthings.
You were always in the middle ofall that.
And uh yeah, it was always asurprise how you it wasn't like
you said, it wasn't disgusting,but it was it was clearly on the

(09:40):
other side of where where youknow, as as uh someone who who's
grown up in church and themodesty and holiness and and all
these sanctification and allthese things, uh it was clearly
outside of those bounds, but youyou could tell you were like
very much just trying to be, youknow, trying to be be something,

(10:00):
be accepted, be real, be among.

SPEAKER_01 (10:03):
And um and that motivated me so much to be
accepted and to try to find aplace where I could fit because
I never did fit.
Now I don't try, I still like itif I can, you know, but but
yeah, uh very, very attentionseeking, which is interesting
because I'm an introvert, so Inever saw myself as attention

(10:27):
seeking um because I didn't doit vocally, but I did it with my
looks and my body.
Yep.
And you know, I used to runaround half naked, and so yeah,
all the time.
But I was in an industry thatreally promoted that, and um,
but yeah, so the modesty thinghas been uh it's just all

(10:49):
miraculous for me, you know.
But it's also God has healed mein all those places that I
haven't needed those things,like I once did.
Um, so how many conversationsare you having with backsliders
as they come back?
Are they are you havingconversations or they come and

(11:11):
ask you questions?
Any of them coming aboutstandard questions?

SPEAKER_02 (11:18):
I I don't I don't think I feel a ton of questions
about holiness, especially frombacksliders.
Um, because I think they alreadyhave kind of a pre-programmed,
like if they've raised beenraised in church, they already
kind of have they already havekind of ideas of what they they
believe for them is holiness.

(11:38):
They believe that God has calledthem to, and those are things
that they've run from.
So when they come back, it'salmost as if they already know
what they need to do.
They'll even tell you, I I knowwhat to do.
You know, if you meet somebody,um I recall a conversation I had
with a really good friend ofmine.
In fact, my buddy Brent, who umI talked about at the last

(12:00):
podcast, um, steal somebody onthe very tip of my tongue and
and forefront of my mind.
I remember a conversation wewere having.
He was driving back from sac uhSacramento, and um I I I did
talk about how that um, youknow, he came came from a very
strict background.

(12:20):
Um and um when I talked to him,I really felt called, you know,
I really felt burdened for him,and and he's driving back.
I said, Come, you know, justcome.
He he was making a trip up andback from Sacramento back down
to uh to Lancaster.
And I said, I said, just juststop in, come by, come by on
church, stay at my house, comestay.

(12:43):
And um, and he's all no.
I said, bro, you can come back.
He's like, man, you guys are youguys just aren't there yet.
And I'm like, what what do youmean?
And he had it in his mind thatyou know that we didn't preach
or teach holiness to the levelthat he was taught.

(13:06):
And I was taken aback um becausethere was some differentiation
made when I was a a youth, and Ididn't realize growing up here
under my my pastor, um, I neverfelt that like heavy burden of
to try to be holy or to besomething, it was just an

(13:26):
outgrowth of our relationship,and I always felt like that's
the way he approached it.
But this um that my friend wastalking about was very um hard,
uh like just the level ofstandards were there.
This was the first recognitionthat there were a diff there was
differences and variance in inour approach.

(13:48):
This was when I was in, youknow, I was like in junior high,
maybe something like that, maybeat junior camp or something like
that.
I remember some some so back tothe conversation.
Um he had mentioned, you know,he he just he indicated to me
that if he he's a he hedistinctly said he said if if I

(14:12):
come back, I've got to go backto my dad's church.
I can't go anywhere else.
And I thought to myself, man,wow, why would you say that?
Like you can come back.
Really, you just need to getaround Christ, you just need
Jesus back in your life.
You need to, um, he loves you,he wants you to be close.
I said, I'm I'm not asking youto go my way.

(14:35):
Um I'm just I just want you tobe close.
I just want you to be close toGod.
But for him to get close meantto be completely a hundred
percent perfect again.

SPEAKER_01 (14:47):
And he and that was a stumbling block.

SPEAKER_02 (14:49):
100%.

SPEAKER_01 (14:49):
Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 (14:51):
I felt like that was one of the that was just the
bridge too far.
That was the the um it was justtoo much for him to reach.
Um, he he had it in his mind,like this is kind of talking
about the backsiders, he hadthis framework in mind that I
must do all these things beforeGod will accept me back.

SPEAKER_06 (15:10):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (15:11):
And so he had a problem with drugs.
He knew he couldn't get rid ofthat at that point.
He had a problem with alcohol,he had a problem with women, he
had a problem.
I mean, I don't know about that.
I I know he had a problem withdrugs, alcohol, you know,
smoking, all those kind ofaddictive things that he had
going on in his personality andin and in his life, he'd open

(15:32):
the door to all those things.
He opened the door when we wereteenagers to those things.
Um, so he, you know, for him tocome back to God, meant
everything in his life that hecalled joy, everything that
brought him peace, everythingthat gave him some bit of
comfort in his life, you wereasking him to throw all that

(15:54):
away and walk back to Christ.
And in in essence, do you needto do that?
Yes, at some point you you'remaking that way back, but cold
turkey out out of nowhere,right?
It was just an impossibility forhim.
But he had this um, what yousaid, this this kind of
structure built in his mind, allthese things he had to do before

(16:18):
he came back.
And I was like, man, don't don'tworry about those things right
now.
Just come back, get in thepresence of God, let God help
you with those things.
You can't do them on your own.
I mean, I don't think this walkwith Christ and this life of
holiness unto him can be done onin the flesh.
In fact, it can't.
It's just it's ugly, it'sdisgusting, it's not at all what

(16:40):
Christ asks of us.
It's when we're in Christ thathe gives us the ability to
become like him without, youknow, so you can't you can't
have that ab abstracted fromfrom the conversation.
It has to be with him, walkingwith him.
And um he just didn't, I justdon't think he could wrap that

(17:01):
in his head.
In his in his mind, he had hishis his mindset that I have to
do this, then I can come.
Right, right.
He said, I just need to get thisdone, I need to fix this, I'm
gonna finish that, and I'll beI'm I'm making my way back, I'm
coming back.
And it it never made it.

SPEAKER_01 (17:18):
So um with with him particularly, and uh, so for
anyone listening, some somepeople are regular listeners,
and you're part of ourorganization, others aren't.
But in the Pentecostal movement,the apostolic movement that we
are in, um there are, I guess,sects within it.

(17:43):
And each sect, differentchurches, different people, uh
believe differently in the wholemodesty, I want to call it a
standard.
And so with we don't often getto hear what men go through.
We always hear what the women gothrough, but with him, it was a
sleeve-link thing, right?
He was he was thinking that ourchurch didn't hold a strict

(18:08):
enough standard on how theydressed, and because we could
wear short sleeves versussleeves to the wrist, right?

SPEAKER_02 (18:17):
That was one of one of his, I mean, one of his
things that he was taught wassleeves always have to be down
to the wrist for men, longsleeves, no shorts, all that
kind of stuff.
Which um, you know, that's oneof those things he was, you
know, he just couldn't bringhimself to.
All the addiction problemsobviously were the the I think

(18:40):
the major cat problem.
But um and that's what I wastrying to anyway.
I was trying to get to him like,hey, look, baby steps back,
right?
Just just get in the presence ofGod.
Let let your heart be open tohim and let you know, let God
love touch you again, you know,not don't be like, well, I
can't, I can't, I can't, Ican't.

SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
But that that is really the place that people
live when they think they wantto come back to church, but they
only see what they have to giveup if they come.
Right.
And so I I can we parse outstandards versus holiness

(19:23):
because I personally see thosevery differently, and I feel
like they have been synonymouswith one another from a a
preaching perspective.
And I I to be honest with you,when I hear a pastor talk about
holiness, I sometimes cringe umbecause I I don't, and it's just

(19:46):
not as straightforward as aswhat it sounds, but I don't
think holiness is the same asstandards of the church, but I
do think that the standards ofthe church become natural as

(20:06):
someone is growing in theirholiness to God.
And the reason I sort of want tohave you talk about that more
and maybe define it separatelyis because uh none of us can get
holy in ourself.
We can't clean up the outsideand voila, we're holy.

(20:28):
Holiness comes from the presenceof God in our life, relationship
with God in our life, andpursuit of God, right?

SPEAKER_02 (20:38):
Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 (20:39):
And and so I I think for people out there that really
don't want to come back to ourkind of church, this is where
they stumble.
So I I just maybe you couldaddress that because I don't
even I'll let you address it,then I'll if I go far afield,

(21:02):
let me know.

SPEAKER_02 (21:03):
I just, you know, I think kind of what you're
indicating and what is that thedamage that comes from standards
applied, outward standardsapplied by men.

SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
And I think before the inward has been done.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (21:20):
So I would say this as a defense to preachers and
pastors, we preach holiness.
Because we need to be holy,right?
Because it's an it's a it's nota it's not a question, it's an
absolute of the scripture, it'sa doctrine of the Bible.
So this is an absolute holinessis an absolute necessity.
Absolutely.

(21:40):
Old Testament, New Testament,you could follow the theme all
the way through.

SPEAKER_01 (21:42):
So there's no right.

SPEAKER_02 (21:45):
So this is what I would get to is this word
holiness is used by preachers.
This word standards is used byparishioners, in my mind.
Okay.
Okay.
Preachers that I know, pe menthat I love and respect, they
never refer to things likestandards, standards of

(22:07):
holiness.
They talk about holiness.
They talk about holiness untoGod because that is the literal
kind of scriptural premise, isthat you are separated.
It's not just a separation fromthe world, it's a it's a
separation unto God.
That separation unto God bringsa person to holiness.

(22:29):
So when we talk about standards,generally speaking, you're
talking when I hear this wordand I hear hear it, uh, it has
this kind of super negativeconnotation because oftentimes
it's referred to by, like Isaid, parishioners, people who
who are in a backslidden state,people who have kind of
struggles, like, oh, is that astandard?

(22:51):
Oh, this is a standard issue.
People that are going away fromGod talk about standards.
People that are close to Godtalk about being holy.
You know what I mean?
So I think it's it's a whole.
I think it's a no, I'm saying,I'm saying when we're looking
for a way out of things that arethese external forces in a sense

(23:18):
of what people say, oh, you needto do this, you need to,
holiness is this, holiness isthis.
So when that doesn't come fromwithin, it's a standard from
without.
Does that make sense?
Holiness comes from theexpectation expectation of the
church.
Right.
So this is a perception, though,right?
This is how people perceiveholiness, is like um you go to a

(23:42):
church and you see everybodydressed a certain way, you're
like, oh, well, that's holiness.
That be that can be thattransitions from what people
honestly express holiness as toa standard.
Well, if you come here, you haveto do this, you have to, it has
to be like this.
So those are those are theconversations of standards.

(24:02):
Conversations of holiness arehow do I become like Christ?
How do I become closer to him?
How do I walk more like him,talk more like him, look more
like him, think more like him?
How do I that's the conversationof holiness?
To me, the conversation ofstandards is a conversational of
minimalism.
Like what's the minimum I haveto do?

(24:25):
So these are people in my mindwhen we talk about standards,
this is these conversations aredevolved conversations that meet
begin to talk about what arewhat it what are my what are my
requirements.
I think once we get to thatplace as people or as saints, if
it were looking for what do Ihave to do, we have missed it
completely.

(24:46):
This has to come holiness, trueholiness, true holiness only
comes from a life separated untoGod saying, I want to please
God.
How do I be right what God wantsme to be?

SPEAKER_06 (24:59):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (25:00):
That's to me true holiness.
Standards are when you're you'retrying to measure up to people's
perception of what you'resupposed to do.
But we doctrinal perception,Jerry.

SPEAKER_01 (25:14):
You you have surely said under preachers who have
interchanged holiness and dresscode.

SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
But it's problematic, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 (25:24):
That's what I'm talking about.
Because I know your heart thatholiness is like that
relationship with God.
Like when we love him, we wantto please him.
And and I think he naturallychanges those things within us.
But but uh, you know, I don'tknow.
I don't know that people arewanting to know what's expected

(25:46):
of them because they're wantingto ride the fence.
I mean, I think there probablyis that for sure.
But I think the the hurt aroundthis subject is when you have a
preacher up there talking aboutholiness, and then they tell you
how long your dress needs to be,and if it's at your knees or a

(26:07):
hair above, then that's notholiness.
And so there is this well,there's just been judgment.
Sure.
Judgment and the perception isif I'm if I don't look like
that, then I'm in a backsliddenstate.
And all of it is being measuredby outward appearance, none of

(26:28):
it's being measured by what'sactually happening in the heart.
And and if someone is beginningto change, maybe for people who
grew up in this way and alwayslive this way, and they start to
change the way they look, to me,that should be a red flag of oh,
what's happening in the heart,what's going on here that that

(26:52):
this is all of a suddenchanging.
Whether they wear pants ordresses or not, it's it should
be a red flag that there'ssomething else happening.
It's just manifesting on theoutside, right?
Right.
But I I I'm talking about thepeople who had really tough

(27:14):
pastors, had really, you know, Imean, I I see on Instagram, for
example, and it sometimes ittakes everything I have not to
reply, but some cute littlePentecostal girl posted herself
running on like a 5k in herlittle skirt and the leggings

(27:36):
that were attached, and a fullmodest sweatshirt and her little
running number.
I thought was amazing.
I thought, good for you.
Someone commented underneathabout the fact that they had
leggings on, and that that, youknow, and that that was sin, and
that these leggings representedblah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

(27:58):
you know, and and I I have seenso much of that.
So leggings, even under a skirt,is not tolerated by some
apostolics.
And that that's what I'm talkingabout is when when all of this
gets really confused, becauseyou're so right.

(28:20):
I'm gonna say with the exceptionof two, um, has been because God
has changed my heart.
You know, God, I I reallydesire, maybe three, desire to
please him, desire to love him.
I want, I want to be pleasing tohim because I love him.
But I I'm also, you know, 59.

(28:45):
I've had a lot of life.
I see the emptiness of all ofthat.
I don't need it anymore.
I'm in a different place where Ican let things go because it
doesn't.
I'm also healed in areas where Idon't need all of that, right?
But you got you got people thatdon't want to step foot in an

(29:06):
apostolic church, even thoughthe power of God is so real
there and so palatable becausethey grew up with this harshness
around outward appearance.
And so how what would you sayabout that journey?

(29:30):
Like as a pastor, are you know,I know you're not sitting up
there judging them, but theydon't always know that.
So as a pastor, what do you seewhen they come back and w and
what what I don't even know whatquestion to ask.
What is your heart around that?

SPEAKER_02 (29:51):
Well, I I think I I'm probably gonna roll back a
little bit in the more some ofyour earlier statements, and
that is um You know, I have seenI have seen pastors preach you
know tough very tough things.
And um as far as what we would,you know, we would define in

(30:14):
this this context as standards,and they at a conference or at
somewhere they preach these kindof very stringent standards and
the the crowd is up and rah, youknow, and then that's very
disenfranchising for people whoare maybe not there yet, but
here we are in a massive groupof people and everybody's
shouting.

(30:34):
And if you're not measuring upto this level, so there's this
kind of cultural aspect thatbuilds up around a church,
around certain styles ofpreachings, uh, you know, that
that really kind of I thinkbring this to the surface.
And I think in those situations,this conversation of holiness
can become a standardsconversation as a as opposed to

(30:57):
a holiness unto Godconversation, because you're in
that and they're different.
Yeah, different.
And so that that that perceptionthat someone is a holiness
preacher, right?
Becomes this very um dogmatic,um articulated position about
every single thing in a person'slifestyle, how they approach,

(31:20):
what they wear, how they wear,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, go
on down the line.
And I think it really straysfrom the conversation of um and
unintentionally, right?
Because all the people that I'veseen in this kind of are in in
in in people that I've come intocontact with, people that are

(31:43):
considered real holinesspreachers, whatever, they do it
from a pure heart.
I think back in in in um that'sgood to hear.

SPEAKER_01 (31:52):
That's good to hear.
They really because it doesn'talways feel that way.
Uh-huh.
No, it doesn't.
It's not on the pew, it soundsharsh, no, it's unloving.
I agree.
I agree.
And um I think part of whythere's so many coming back with
you, the love you have for thesh for the sheep is felt.

(32:13):
We feel it when you even Sunday.
I told him before we startedthis podcast, I, you know,
Sunday he kind of preached aboutsomething he never does.
But even then it was so loving.
And and that was very clear.
So I guess that's the differenceis the perception of the person
sitting on the pew.
Yeah, you know, it it felt veryharsh.

SPEAKER_02 (32:38):
Yeah.
And I think, and I think backjust because of my experience,
right, growing up, and I beganas I went to Bible college, I
began to realize there was thesekind of what you referred to
earlier, is kind of kind ofdifferent factions amongst us,
people who are considered theseare very holiness people, these
are like middle of the row,these are like, oh, they're a
little slipping, you know.

(32:58):
And so we have these.
And so you could you could havethese the the perception, and I

(33:19):
grew up under this perception isthat these are holiness
preachers, these are, you know,guys just trying to live for
God, these are people like justabout to slip off of a cliff,
you know.
And so I grew up under thatperception.
And and as I've gone on in myministry, um, in fact, in the
last just in the last few yearsas pastor, I've run into um a

(33:41):
number of different pastors thatI perceived very differently.
Um and kind of hearing them out.
And these are aged men.
In fact, a lot of theseconversations that I've had have
been at funerals, uh, sadly.
Uh, funerals for for for greatmen in our organization of who

(34:02):
have gone on to their reward.
And they might have beenperceived this way or that way
or what have you.
But then at the end, at theirfuneral, you get to have these
kind of conversations withpeople who were really affected
by them, who are whose liveswere changed by, oh, he was he
was my pastor.

(34:23):
He, he, he, you know, he reallygave his heart to me.
And my perception of that personwas this dogmatic, grueling, you
know, because that's the onlyview or glimpse I had of their
life.
But then I talked to somebodywho was actually affected by
them, and they begin to justexpound upon the love that they

(34:45):
had for me, the care and and theconcern.
I remember a story about uhprobably one of the most
dogmatic known people in my lifethat, and I didn't even know
him, but I just know stories ofyou know, uh of this uh of this
preacher named I terry out of Ithink the Bakersfield area and
this kind of real stringentapproach he had.

(35:06):
But I ran into a guy, and uh,gosh, what was his name?
He was at the funeral, and Iknew him by proxy somehow, I
can't remember.
And then he came into contactand he told me he had come out
from Icteri.
He said, you know, I was I wasum I was kicked out of his

(35:26):
church five times.
So this is this very dogmaticman, my perception.
And his positions omacr to mecame across hateful.

SPEAKER_01 (35:41):
Well, he kicked someone out five times.
Yeah, that's a bit scary.

SPEAKER_02 (35:44):
And this was not an oddity for him.
Like he would like, if you don'tagree, if you're not lining up,
boom, you're out.
You're out.
You make a mistake, boom, get onout of my church.
I'm not gonna allow, I'll justfellowship you.
And this man kind of braggedabout two things.
One is who his pastor was.

(36:04):
Two, he bragged about beingkicked out that many times.
And I was just in my mind, I'mlike going, what?
And he said, But you know what?
He said, This brother kicked meout.
I already mentioned his name, Idon't know why I'm saying this
brother.
Um, Ike Terry kicked me out,disfellowshipped me from the

(36:27):
youth group, disfellowshipped mefrom the church five times.
Every single time hedisfellowshipped me.
He said I was a mechanic.
I was working at a I think a gasstation or something as a
mechanic.
He said every time hedisfellowshipped me, he would
show up at my work and he wouldum he would work with me all

(36:51):
day.
He would sit at my job everyday.
He would show up to my job andstay with me hours at a time,
talking to me, loving on me,caring for me.
He said, and then eventually hewould I I would be able to come
back.
He said, and then I would go,and I was just this wild guy,

(37:11):
and I was just going, you know,I was trying to live for God,
but I was making these stupidmistakes at the same time.
And he said he could not allowthat to infect the rest of so he
would kick me out again.
He said, and then he would showup my job.
So that perspective of this manthat I had already, yes, the

(37:34):
perspective of this man, I'veI've always said this man
preached against fresh air.
He was, you know, hisperspective was hateful, his
perspective was dogmatic, hisand it was very polarizing.
But I'm gonna tell you, in allthese funerals and different
people that I've talked to, thatwas not the man.
Yeah, that was a miss, this wasa perception of the man.

(37:57):
And but this person um revealingthat to me, I thought, whoa, I
have, I, I, I'm, I have missedit.
And this is the thing, and and II think this is kind of what I
want to get to is sometimespastors preach things because it
it they see the danger, right?

(38:19):
They see the person whetherthat's a cultural danger,
whether that's a problem forthat person's life in
particular, or a problem for thecongregation.
The people that he's been givento pastor.
And so he might make this veryuh you know, dogmatic or or or
stringent requirement, becausehe sees that as something that

(38:44):
he feels like if I don't takecare of this, people will be
damaged.
If I don't take care of it, if Idon't, if I don't hedge this
right now, if I don't make amake a make a um a stand against
this right now, this couldimpact others that are amongst
the weakest among us, you know.
And so I guess my perception ofthose things has changed quite a

(39:07):
bit because I really um I reallyhad a a change of heart in
talking and having aconversation to some of these
guys and guys that grew up underhim.
They said, man, he was hard, hewas tough, but man, the love.
And I think that's thedifference is this thing only
works.
Holiness only works in love.

SPEAKER_04 (39:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (39:29):
In love with Christ, in love with his things, in love
with his will, in love with hispurpose.
And and so when you are in lovewith him, you want to do things
that please him, right?
And so it doesn't really matter,and I think this is where true
holiness comes into play is I dothings because I love him.

SPEAKER_06 (39:48):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
Not because he requires me.
Right.
Or that the church requires andso that the danger is the danger
is you get the you get therequirement without the love.
Right.
Then it's a standard.
Right.
I think that's the I thinkthat's the problem is people
they look at, you know, theycome into a church or they have
a perception of what holinessalready is, they come in and

(40:10):
say, well, well, they theyaren't gonna accept me, they
aren't gonna love me.
And if they you know, if that'sthe case, it it's I think it
it's wrong.
I don't think that that's theright perspective to have.
I think if you come in and youjust say, I I want to love God
with your with an open heart,God will bring you to a place of

(40:33):
holiness with him.
Because if you love him, you'regonna start, you're just gonna
naturally tend toward him.
Um and so those are those areimportant uh ways in which I
think you you people get amisconception of what um like
what's I want to say like what'srequired.

(40:54):
Again, that's the the worstwording to use.
What is what is my requirement?
Right, right.
It's you you don't ask that whenyou're in love with somebody.
What do I have to do to makesure that you love me?
That's if I said that to mywife, that would be World War
III.
That's ridiculous.
So the same thing would is truewith Christ and in love with

(41:15):
him, it's never a what do I haveto?

SPEAKER_05 (41:18):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (41:19):
But when we get to religion, it is a have to,
right?
People look at it like, what doI have to do to be a part of
this church?
What do I have to do to Yeah?
I think that's a really, reallyterrible way to approach it, the
subject.

SPEAKER_01 (41:31):
Yeah.
Well, I think too, people aretrying to get to a place where
they can believe that God lovesthem.
Because I think that's why theyask, what do I have to do?
Because they do feel apart fromGod.
They have been out in the worldand they they they are coming

(41:52):
back with a place of I do, I amcommitted, I am ready, I want to
do this, but I don't know how, Idon't know what.
And so I don't think they'realways trying to hold on to
things, but they're also theywant to make sure that they're
in right standing with God andthat God loves them, because to
embrace and actually know that Iknow that I know that I am his

(42:17):
child and that he loves me takesa lot of confidence in God, and
a new backslider coming homedoesn't have that.
No, and they so they they theyneed to know hey God's with me
and everything's gonna be okayand he's gonna lead me however
he leads me.

(42:37):
Yeah, so I I don't think but atthe same time, some things just
don't make sense in thosebeginning stages.
Yeah, even in a year stage, youknow, and I I think people want
to know, hey, is am I okay?
Is this a sin?
Is this you know there's so muchthat we do not know about God

(43:04):
coming home from being abackslider?
And so I anyways, I I think thatmy takeaway from this is there's
a lot more behind the scenesthat doesn't always get said if
no one's ever asking thequestions.

(43:24):
And so for someone to be able tocome and ask questions and that
be okay, I think that'simportant because we do we do
perceive the ministry assomething different than what
the reality probably is.

SPEAKER_02 (43:41):
Yeah, I think so.
Um I think you know, uh just asa fundamental rule of of coming
back to the Lord is that whenyou come back, um, and and and
you know, when you look at kindof like the old testament
typology when um when this wordholiness is first used, like

(44:02):
it's it's when they're comingout of Egypt, when they're
separated from everything thatthey had before, and they and
they're then then you knowthrough Leviticus and through uh
you know the following text,there's there's a very
descriptive process that he'sgiving to his people in the old

(44:25):
testament about becoming holy,being separated unto the Lord,
be ye holy, for I am holy.
These things, the these conceptsare reiterated and then they're
defined in a lot of ways.
And I think that's the the theum the tough thing is when we
get into the new testament, isthe same requirement is called.
First Peter refers back to be yeholy for I am holy.

(44:47):
So he's he's tying this oldtestament concept back to and
he's saying, hey, look, what wasback there is here too.
There's there's a requirementhere.
There's a there's a there's away in which you we need to
approach God.
Of course, we're dealing with agentile nation, and there's you
know, they're not under the law,and they're and all these other
things.
So how do we how do how doesthat play out in the the modern

(45:12):
in our modern society in our inour in our day?
How does that play out in ourculture?
I think that's the the bridgethat most people have trouble
with is they start to want toparse these things.
But I I think probably thefundamental rule in in my mind
is what was I doing when I wasin the world?

(45:33):
Right.
You know, was I was I smoking?
Man, I probably shouldn't smoke.
You know, was I drinking?
Probably shouldn't be drinkinganymore.
Those things that led me or keptme captivated or entertained in
the world, those things thatwere a part of my person, when
when God calls his people, hewhen he comes, brings them out

(45:55):
of Egypt, just like he does withus in bringing us out of sin, a
fundamental rule is just whatwas I doing before?
I don't want to do that, right?
That that was that was somethingthat held me away from Christ.
Whereas when we come into theNew Testament, what brings me
closer to him?
Um I I think the if if if wekind of simplified some of that

(46:16):
down, like what makes me drawcloser to him?

SPEAKER_05 (46:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (46:20):
Does um, you know, if if I can if I can play that
out in my life, what does thatlook like?
Um, if I separate myself fromwhat I used to be, what does
that look like in my life?
Right.
I think those those fundamentalrules applied to your life bring
you to a place that's closer tohim because obviously what I was

(46:41):
doing over there wasn't right.
Right.
Or I or I wouldn't, you know, oruh I wouldn't have been held
captive there.
But when he when he brings thisout, it's pretty easy to me.
It's a pretty easy discussion.
What was I doing before?
I don't want to do that, right?
Right.
I want to do something new.
I want to, I want to get closerto God.
So how do I get closer to him?
I can read my, you know, I canread the word, I can, I can

(47:03):
pray, I can, I can fast, I canput myself in a position of
obedience unto Christ.
Um, I can submit myself unto Godand to man um in in those
things.
And that kind of like obedienceto the spirit of God, obedience
to the word of God, obedience,then uh that that's what the the

(47:25):
scripture is talking about.
That obedience to God's word,his will, and his purpose in
your life and his spirit talkingto you.
Um, it's better than sacrifice.
It bec it's not a challenge umto be holy, it's just being
close to him.

SPEAKER_01 (47:43):
Yeah, but that's that's a I agree with you,
that's a heart posture that getsdeveloped in the process.
And backsliders coming back, Ithink they know one thing is
that they're not okay, they'retired of what they're doing, and

(48:03):
they and they're probably livingunder conviction, and the Lord
is dealing with their hearts,and so they want they want to
return to God and at least startoff getting to know him again,
you know, like the prodigal whenhe came back to his father.
Um But I forgot what I was gonnasay.

(48:26):
I just I just lost my frame ofmind.
Anyways, sorry, I just lost myjust lost my thought.
I I just don't I just don't wantthe person out there that I I
you you cannot be alive todaywithout thinking and knowing

(48:46):
that Jesus is gonna come backsoon.
That the prophecies are beingfulfilled, we're seeing it in
real time.
Yeah, the mark of the beast iscloser than it's ever been.
And I and I really think itcould get rolled out any minute,
sure, you know, right afterdigital currency and digital ID
is coming.
But I think people out therethat have had any footprint of

(49:09):
of being in church is is knowingthat.
And they're they're starting tolook at that, they're starting
to get afraid of that, they'restarting to realize, oh, I need
to get my life right.
Yeah.
And I don't want the outsideappearance of somebody to affect
whether they walk into anapostolic church, yeah, you
know, because that that can'tthat can't be the reason that

(49:34):
they don't get their life rightwith the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 (49:37):
I think it's such a beautiful moment, though, in our
history, in where we're at as asa in the timeline of God.
I don't know.
I mean, we are closer now thanwe've ever been to the coming of
the Lord.
And I think you're right, thethe person that grew up in
church or even uh or maybewasn't, but they they know

(49:58):
enough of the word of the Lord,they've heard enough about it
that they're like, wait aminute, this is close.
Yeah, the things that theytalked about are happening.
The the the revelation of thatum is a very clairvoyant call to
to to those who are his.
And I think a lot of people areopening their eyes, and I think

(50:19):
that's what's so beautiful aboutthis moment in in our in our
lives is is that when you startto say, okay, the Lord is coming
back soon.
That's why I smile because it'ssuch a when you realize that you
look that you must compare andcontrast now the Lord's coming

(50:42):
back.
Eternal weight of glory, eternaluh relationship with Christ, the
the beauty of uh of being ableto live with him forever,
compared to where I'm at today.
Right.
You know what I mean?
So whenever you grapple withthese ideas that the Lord is
coming back, you must alsograpple with the idea of what am

(51:03):
I holding on to in this worldthat's more valuable than this?
Than eternity, yeah.
Yeah, the pearl of great price.
I've sell everything for that.
And I think that is the essencereally of holiness is like you
make this decision, like youlook at the world and say, ah,
yeah, whatever that is, I don'twant it.
It's not, it's not to becompared with this, right?

(51:23):
What with what I can have inChrist Jesus, what I can uh, how
close can I be to him?
It's no longer a discussion whenyou really compare and contrast
these two things, when you seethe coming of the Lord so soon,
the reality and uh of and thereality of hell.
The reality of hell, the realitythat that um his word is true,

(51:44):
his will is coming about, itthat doesn't, you know, all
these I just think it's such aneye-opening moment in our in our
history, in our society, in ourculture, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah.
All the key phrases.
I just think it's such aneye-opening moment for us.
And I think as as a backslider,you know, um it's just it's it's

(52:09):
not a it's not a tough choice inmy mind when you compare these
two.
Right now, the devil can get hishooks in, and that's that's the
the the the danger, obviously,is when you're in the world, the
devil has his ways of justhooking you on things, not only
addictive, but mentally and andjust all the strongholds, yeah.

(52:31):
All the all the strongholds thatcan really kind of hold a person
down, and they can get to aplace like I was talking to
about about my buddy.
Um, it's not only the hooks ofaddiction, it's the confines
built around their ownperception of what is required

(52:51):
of them.
Right.
That standard, oh, I gotta dothis, do this.
Skip all that.
As a pastor, that's what I say.
We're not talking about thatright now.
What I want you to talk about isgetting in that altar, getting
close to God.
Right.
All this will make sense onceyou're close to God.
Right.
Once you're in a place whereyou're like, when you've made
that contrast, like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 (53:12):
Yeah, heaven, hell, but not a difficult decision.

SPEAKER_02 (53:16):
Streets of gold burning fire.
I mean, it's it the contrastcannot be uh more poignant.
So when you look at it likethat, you're like, man, I don't
what can give what can I give inexchange for him, what what can
a man give in exchange for hissoul?
Right, right.
So there is no cost, there is noum, there is no um requirement,

(53:39):
yeah, um that that you should beintimidated by, because if I do
it because I'm in love withChrist and I want to be close to
Jesus, it's gonna be easy.
Right.
Jesus said, My yoke is easy andmy burden is light.
Right.
And truly it is.
And I think that's the thing ispeople put a burden upon

(54:00):
themselves that's not requiredof the Lord.

SPEAKER_06 (54:03):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (54:03):
They put a they put a uh and and and that danger is
now I'm being yoked up withman's concepts.

SPEAKER_01 (54:14):
But they have not yet crossed over to the decision
yet.
Backsliders are in that place ofcontemplation.
So they haven't maybe found thatplace at the altar yet to where,
oh man, I don't ever want toleave this.
They're just in the thecontemplation and they're
looking at, you know, is thisnecessary?

(54:35):
Is this is this needful?
Um there's been a lot ofjudgment around the issue,
right?
So yeah, I think you're right.
When someone is in the placethat you just described, there
is no, yeah, there, there is noquestion, right?
Because you are back into thatplace with the Lord that is what

(54:57):
makes us want to just pursue himand please him and love him.
Yeah.
But that that contemplationplace about um coming back to an
apostolic church, because I sayon here a lot, like just come,
just come.
Yeah.
Just come once, just come andwalk in the door and see if you

(55:18):
feel the presence of God.
Yeah, you know, but I think somany are afraid to walk in the
door because A, I think they'vegonna feel the presence of God
and they know that.
And B, they're not ready to kindof take all the other steps.
And and I would say, I so I'mgonna pause here and talk about

(55:38):
our first conversation we had,because I wasn't either.
And and the the things that I'vegiven up in my life today have
been because God, because Godhas showed me some things,
except for like the three thatI'm gonna mention.
But I think I want to remove thebarrier in that contemplation

(56:03):
moment for people.
And I think you did it sobeautifully with me, you know,
um when I came back.
Do you remember what I said whenI called you?

SPEAKER_02 (56:14):
Uh yes, kind of.

SPEAKER_01 (56:18):
Okay, tell me.

SPEAKER_02 (56:20):
The way I remember it was you said, I I want to
come back to church.
I want to come back to yourchurch.
I know I'm kind of not where youwould describe as as the place I
need to be.
Um and my response was yeah, catKat, if if you I want you to

(56:41):
come back, I want you to comeback to my church.
I don't want those things tohold you back, but um, I don't
but if you have already amade-up mind, this is just the
way I'm going to be, I'm notgonna change, this is who I am,
and that's I said, well thenthat's not gonna be a good fit,
something to that effect.
But I said, if you'll come andyou just remain open to God, if

(57:02):
God requires more of you, if heasks more of you, if you begin
to if he begins to ask you tochange, I'm just asking you to
be open to that.
That was my uh that's the way Iremembered.

SPEAKER_01 (57:12):
Is that yeah, fairly, yeah.
But uh for the audience, so youguys don't know me unless you've
seen my Facebook past pictures,but um by the time I think I
asked, I'd already cleaned up mymodesty stuff.
I I had already cleaned up how Ipresented my body to the world.

(57:34):
I wasn't, you know, for me, forwhere I was, right?
Um, but I still wore big hoopearrings, I had a thumb ring on
my on my right thumb, and I worejewelry.
I love jewelry.
I used to wear bracelets up myarm and you know, I was very
fashionable, I would think, youknow, and I had my own little
style.

(57:55):
And so when I called my pastor,I said, I'd like to come, you
know, but I want to come how Iam.
Would you accept me how I am?
You know, because I also toldhim that in the past, when I had
given my life back to God, I Idid do all the outward things.

(58:16):
I I joined the choir, I cleanedup everything that was expected
of an apostolic Pentecostalgirl, and I still never found my
place.
And more importantly, I didn'thave answers for people as to
why I did what I did.
And it was very important for meto know the reasons why we do

(58:37):
what we do.
And so you said, no, Kathy, justcome.
But I would ask that you remainopen to God, to let God lead
you.
And so, you know, because thatwas and and it is hard going.
It was hard for me.
I think I probably took myearrings out on church days, but

(58:58):
it was hard for me to go andjust stay true to myself for the
reasons that I felt wasimportant and let God kind of do
that work.
And so, um, so so my pastorsaid, yes, come, you know, just
stay open to God.
But he, I think you heard myheart.

(59:19):
You knew I wanted the things ofthe Lord, I wanted to be part of
what God was doing, and I knewbecause I'd been many years at
other churches, um, the power ofGod was at our church, and
that's what I was after.
I wanted the presence of God.
Um, and so you you opened thatdoor for me, and I felt very

(59:45):
loved and and very seen in thatmoment to just come and be, you
know, and um I think I also toldyou one of the reasons I needed
to find a church and have apastor.
Is because in my field of workI've had uh some really scary

(01:00:07):
experiences spiritually withpeople.
I've been threatened umphysically with murder with
clients, and I understood enoughspiritually speaking that I
needed a covering.
And at the time, I didn't have apastor that I felt could cover
me spiritually.

(01:00:28):
And as a single woman, um, Iknew that I needed that.
And so I asked you if you wouldbe my covering.
Do you remember what you said tome?

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:38):
Not exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:40):
You said, Well, Kath, the first covering is
hair, and he and you said, Iwill I'll be your covering, I'll
be your pastor.
But you know, the Bible sayshair is your covering, and so
you very gently talked to meabout hair.

(01:01:01):
And at the time I used to cut mybangs.
Um, I cut my hair a lot.
I I always wanted it longbecause I never got to have long
hair, so I I did do that, but Istopped cutting my bangs from
that moment on, um for thatreason, you know.
And um, so anyways, and you lookgood.

(01:01:25):
Thank you.
It's been an adjustment becauseI'd only seen myself for so
long.
But you know, the hair thing, umto be honest with the people
watching, um once I got introuble for cutting my hair when
I was a kid, my mother made mememorize a whole 11th chapter of

(01:01:48):
1 Corinthians on hair.
Like I I was grounded till Imemorized that whole thing.
It took months.
I I will say I've studied it outa lot.
I still don't have the thecomplete revelation, but I do do
it on obedience unto my pastorbecause um I feel like it's

(01:02:10):
needful, you know, and I and Idid ask, so we went to Israel,
and um I I did I was able to seesome things being in Israel
about the holiness standard, themodesty, I will say, standard
and the hair thing.
And I did read Sister Haney'sbook on guarding the
supernatural, which was allabout hair.

(01:02:32):
Um, I still struggle with thatin myself, you know, and I am
praying, and not that I struggleto want to cut my hair, that's
not it.
I struggle with um wanting to befully persuaded in the reason
because the way the Hebrewinterprets script the way it all

(01:02:54):
is interpreted in originallanguage is to me a little
different, but it doesn'tmatter.
Um, to me, that doesn't matter.
I trim my dead ends because if Idon't, my hair would be up to
here and it breaks.
So, in some ways, maybe I'm notbeing completely obedient in the
trimming of my dead ends, but Ireally endeavor.

(01:03:15):
Um, I don't cut my hair anymorefor fashion in any way or
anything like that.
I'm really, I'm really trying uhto gain some revelation in that
area.
Um, but I think I don't know ifyou want to comment on any of
that, maybe not where I'mconcerned or where I'm

(01:03:36):
concerned, I don't care.
But I think any kind of insightyou could offer people watching
about that particular thingwould be helpful.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:47):
Yeah, I um, you know, it the hair issue
obviously has has been is one ofthose very prominent ones
amongst us because you you know,people look and they say, Oh,
yeah, all your ladies have longhair.
Um and um the text obviouslyreferring to uncut hair um has

(01:04:09):
always been a prominentprominent factor when when when
when he's when he when Paul'swriting about these things and
and kind of delineating and notthat hair is the essence and the
essential center point of uh ofthat text, although it it is the
the tool he uses to pr show theheadship and authority um of

(01:04:35):
God.
God is the head, man, and thenthe woman, and that each each of
those covers.
So God covers man, man covers,and God gave the woman her hair
for her covering, and thatcovering is symbolic of you know
the covering over the mercy seedand all and all these beautiful,
beautiful analogous things thatgo back to the old testament.

(01:05:00):
And so um it's become somethingthat's really delineated who we
are as Pentecostals is the hairissue.
Um, and because the scripturerefers to it, you know, in that
in that way, and and it and ittalks about that headship
bringing um authority, um,bringing right alignment with

(01:05:23):
with Christ, and also thebenefit of of having um what
what Paul refers to is powerwith the angels.
Um and so there's something veryeven if we don't understand it
in its totality, there'ssomething powerful there, and we
realize that.
And I think you made mention ofit is you know, you've been to a

(01:05:45):
lot of churches, and I think wehad that conversation when when
you were coming back, and andyou you had mentioned, um, I
want to come back where thepower of God is, I want to feel
his presence like I know he is,that depth.
And I think I asked you at thattime, I said, Well, well, Kat,
what's the difference?
Because I know you've been tochurches that no longer find

(01:06:10):
that as a position to take.
Like, well, you know, you can dowhatever you want.
You can cut your hair, you canwear whatever you want, you can
do just come and be and don'tmake any changes to your life.
It's not that they're wanting togo away from God.
I think ultimately they justwant to lower the barrier so
more people can come.
I think it's done out of a pureheart.
People a lot of times lose theirstandards because they think the

(01:06:31):
standards are holding peopleback.
Right, right.
These these kind of doctrinalpositions are holding people
back.
And so, in a from a pastor'sheart, they say, Well, if
there's something in the waythat I can help, I'm gonna look,
I'm gonna get that out of theway so that that more people can
come, more people canexperience.
What ends up happening is thosebarriers that God builds, those

(01:06:52):
headships, those authorities,those uh that that that
structure that the Lord put inplace, once removed, it no
longer has the same effect.
And you can definitely sense it,you can definitely feel it.
If you're spiritually attuned,you can walk into a church and
say, you know, the spirit ofGod's here, but it's not that
deep.
Right.
Right.
And then you go into otherplaces um who definitely kind of

(01:07:16):
are a lot more holiness-orientedand you can feel a depth.
And so you can tell thedifference between, you know,
from my experience.
This is just, you know, from myexperience, you can go into a
church and you can tell ifthey're holiness people or not.
Um, because there's somethingvery beautiful and something
that God really stands with whenit comes to holiness.
And I think, like I said,there's so much historical um

(01:07:39):
textual evidence to this and anabsolute call from the scripture
to be holy.
So whatever that is, we need tohave it.
Whatever it looks like.
Whatever it looks like.
You need it's not it's not amaybe or uh it would be a good
idea, it's an absolute from thescriptural uh position.
And so what does that look like?

(01:08:01):
I think those are those are thehard discussions, but um it it
it gets to where if you if ifyou get into a congregation that
has this perspective ofholiness, like I want to be
close to God, what do I need todo?
What can I do to be close tohim?
Um, when you get around peoplelike that, there's something

(01:08:24):
very real about that.
There's a very, there'ssomething very um the spirit of
God seems so real, so depth.
So because I think God justloves that sacrifice, that that
obedient sacrifice unto him.
There's something that's just sodesirous of him.
When people are willing to laydown themselves to glorify him,

(01:08:46):
there's something just amazingthat happens in the spirit
realm.

SPEAKER_05 (01:08:48):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:49):
Because it's no longer about self, me, mine, my
way, my fashion, my style, my myperson, my persona, my all that
gets all to glorify him.
And that is being created.
That's a person saying, I wantto be created in the image of
God, recreated, reformed in theimage of him.
And so I think that is kind ofthe essence of holiness is being

(01:09:11):
created in his image.
Right.
And getting back to that placewhere we are in his image.
When we're in the world, we'redoing everything almost to
diminish that image.
Right.
In fact, you look at, you know,culturally, and I would say the
ultimate play of Satan is todamage the image of God.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:30):
Identity is the I think identity issues are the
number one mental health issue,how it plays out in every every
piece of mental health.
I feel like it always comes backto an identity piece because
shame is about identity.
So, so yeah, everything comesback, I think, to identity.

(01:09:51):
All the eating disorders, allthe all the anxiousness,
depression.
It's all rooted in rejection andabandonment are the core issues
that create personalitydisorders, and most of what
mental health issues are rootedin.
All that's identity.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:11):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:11):
All of it.
All of it is an absence of love.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:14):
Well, I've never heard it like that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:16):
That's interesting because I I think And you're
right, Satan does come to stealthat from us.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:22):
So that's the best way to absolutely destroy
somebody, is right, you you tearthem down, you break what they
think their image is.
Right.
So if they're popular, ifthey're cool, or whatever, or
whatever you and you want todestroy them, you're gonna break
that image.
And when you know, in the Gardenof Eden, right, Adam and Eve are

(01:10:42):
created in the image of God, andand God reaffirms that
constantly, right?
Uh that you're made in the imageof God.
And so anything that can destroythat image is what the devil is
after, to destroy what God hascreated.
So, I mean, you see it in the inall the different, you know, sin
community, if you will,communities.
That's a stupid way to say it,but sin changes the look, right?

(01:11:08):
If you see somebody who's hookedon methamphetamine, it's
unmistakable.
Right.
And if you've ever used meth andand and dealt with that, you see
it.
Oh, you know, it's unmistakable.
If somebody doesn't see that,they might not recognize that,
but the identity is so clear.
Or whatever your drug of choice,or whatever um, whatever sin

(01:11:28):
that really can get a grip onsomebody's life, it's
unmistakable.
Once you lust or or whatever,when you see it on somebody, you
can't unsee it.
It's there.
I mean, there's an image that iscreated in that person by
whatever afflicts them, whateverbondage they're in, that image
is created in them.
And that's why I think it's sobeautiful when a person comes

(01:11:51):
back to God, like that, that uhthe story in in Jeremiah where
Israel, uh Israel is they'vebeen destroyed by slavery and
the image he the Lord says, Comeback to me.
I'm gonna put you, I'm thepotter.
Let me put that lump of clayback on.
He says, Look, watch, can't Iredo it?
Look at look at the potter, howhe he that that vessel was

(01:12:14):
marred in his hands.
It was messed up, it it got itgot sidetracked, it didn't take
the right form.
But I'm gonna take that lump,I'm gonna rework that lump.
I'm put let me let me be that toyou, Israel.
God, God was saying in Jeremiah.
And I think that that same thingis true of the backslider, is
that's what all that God issaying.
He says, Look, you're just a letme let me put my hands back on

(01:12:38):
you, let me re-mold you, let mereshape you.
The image that sometimes theworld puts on us, even religion
can put on us, is a destruct,can be a horribly marred thing.

SPEAKER_05 (01:12:51):
Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:52):
Religion can put a marred perspective on us in our
lives.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:57):
Un you know, just and religion is is anything that
we do in the church culture thatis not coming from a pure heart,
that's not coming fromrelationship with with the Lord,
right?
If I if I cleaned up tomorrow,took all my makeup off and did
all the things, you know, justto be Pentecostal and to be more

(01:13:18):
accepted, it would not be comingfrom the right heart posture.
And eventually I'd probablyresent that, which you know,
before it just didn't work.
I have to make sure it's comingfrom the right place to where it
can last because it never lastedbefore, you know, because it was

(01:13:38):
just what I thought I wassupposed to do.
It was religion, it was notdoing it unto man and not unto
God.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:45):
So those, yeah, those are that I mean, if we if
we're doing anything like this,right, right, our it is going to
fail.
If we do it unto man becausesomeone requires it of me or
somebody asks it of me.
But when the Lord steps in andsays, hey, and he begins to
convict us for things that we'redoing or our directions we're
taking, or even positions in ourmind and and and thought that

(01:14:08):
we're that we're utilizing, ifhe steps in and asks us
different, it it's waydifferent.
Yeah, I mean just it justchanged it.
And you're willing to change,right?
And it happens, it's very easy.
It's very easy.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:20):
Yeah, super easy.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:21):
And it's it's it those things fall off of us like
you know, it just they'rethey're shucked off of us real
quickly when it's to God.
Yeah, when it's to man, it's ityou're right.
I think it builds resistresentment, resistance uh to to
religion.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:40):
Um well, there's an absence of trust there, you
know, that you don't you don'ttrust.
And if you can't trust, yeah,it's super hard to follow
somebody if you don't trustthem.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:51):
Yeah, I think culturally as as Pentecostals, I
think a lot in times past wehave this kind of idea that just
whatever, you know, whateverpastor would say, I have to just
do these things.
And I think um that was alittle, not a little, it was
very damaging to a lot of peoplebecause that's all they saw.
That's all and that I thinkpartially was a cultural thing.

(01:15:14):
Like during the 40s, 50s, 60s,it was just do because I said
do.
Right.
Whereas when I went to Biblecollege, um, and and really we
we talked about these things asI that's not that wasn't the
perspective of our professors,Dr.
Seagraves and Crownover and anduh Brother Garner, and it was a

(01:15:36):
passion for the things of God.
If I'm passionate about God, Iwant him, I desire him, I'm
gonna follow him.

SPEAKER_05 (01:15:44):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:44):
And if he says jump, I'm gonna say how high, not
because man requires this, butbecause the Lord asks me.

SPEAKER_06 (01:15:50):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:51):
Something very different when the Lord asks me.
And so um, and I think sometimespeople because they don't
cultivate a relationship whereGod talks to them, they just
have a church relationship, thenthen you have the problem that
we're really kind of referringto, and that is a standard
problem, because now it's notGod talking to me.

(01:16:11):
The the church, the churchrequires this.
My pastor said so.
Da, da, da, da, da.
And then it it's never gonnahold weight, it's never gonna
hold uh strength in your life ifyou're doing it as unto man.
But if you're doing it as untoGod, man, what you know, like I
said, how far do you want me togo?

(01:16:32):
I'll go as far as you want, aslong as I'm doing it to God.
Right.
If I'm doing it to man and it'sjust because man requires it of
me, I could be a diligentsoldier, I could do what
somebody asks of me as long asI'm in their presence.

SPEAKER_06 (01:16:48):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:49):
As soon as I'm out of their presence, I'm doing my
own thing.
Right.
Right.
And so that's the difference.
True holiness is it becomes an II am who I am who God wants me
to be.

SPEAKER_06 (01:16:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:17:00):
Instead of I am what my church requires of me or my
religion requires of me.
Holiness comes from within towithout and it it's it's
beautiful when you've seen it.
And when you see it, it's itit's the most gorgeous thing
ever.
It's the ugliest thing ever,too.
If it's if it's outward, right,it's not inward.

(01:17:22):
Not inward, not inward.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:24):
Yeah, so I mean I think that's when I remember
going to Bible college, uh CLC.
I didn't go to Bible college,but CLC.
And I remember seeing girls withreal gaudy jeweled-up watches
and skin tight clothes.
And I was thinking, because Iwas always looking at the heart,

(01:17:46):
what I saw was the heart behindit, and the two didn't compute
for me.
And I'm like, it's the same.
Yeah, that this is the same, itdoesn't matter.
And and that was part of when Istarted to not um you saw the
hypocrisy, yeah.
I saw the hypocrisy, and again,I was just trying, Lord, what
does all this mean?

(01:18:07):
I was just trying to follow theLord, yeah.
But anyways, that ended uptaking me down a whole different
road because I started goingless.
When I started figuring out Ididn't fit in, I was always at
church on Sundays, but I stoppedtrying to be involved in the
culture because I did see thehypocrisy.

(01:18:32):
But in my own self also, I wenta whole different direction
because again, my wound wasneeding to belong someplace.
And and I think um I don't knowthe stories of backsliders out
there that haven't come back.
I know there's deep, deepwounds.
Um, we're having this discussionso that how you look on the

(01:18:54):
outside doesn't have to be abarrier to when you come back,
you know, that you could justcome back because I think I'm
glad you said that about thepastors, that they are
approaching it from the rightperspective.
But when we are wounded, we'regonna hear it from a wounded
lens, and we're gonna hear it astalking to us and targeted to

(01:19:16):
us, you know, and um, and that'sjust not always the case,
probably actually rarely thecase that it's specific towards
one person.
So I want to talk a little bitabout the things that I've given
up and maybe the conversationsthat we've had.
So for anyone out there thatdoesn't know me, I have come

(01:19:40):
from a lifestyle of fitness,very involved in the fitness
community, and the gym has beena big part of my life for a long
time, which is why I walkedaround half-necked most of the
time.
And um, so when so that was justone of the pieces.
The other piece is I hateddresses.

(01:20:01):
Like, I don't think I even had adress in my closet when I came
back, maybe one or two, uh,because I was so uncomfortable
wearing a dress, old, very ultrauncomfortable because it really
triggered me to how I wasraised, and I wanted nothing to
do with that.

(01:20:22):
And um so one of you know whathappened for me is tell a little
bit about my story, is I startedcoming back to our church, and
the Lord had been dealing withme, and I already knew the world
had nothing for me.
I think I had I I feel like Ihad a a really good taste of the

(01:20:47):
world in lots of ways that thatno amount of money, no amount of
prestige, no amount of anythingwas gonna fill the void that
only God could fill.
So I'd been coming.
Um and then I went to Israelwith uh Christian Life Center.
And before I went to Israel, Isat down with my pastor because

(01:21:09):
again, I didn't have manydresses, and I hadn't really
found my place.
I hadn't really found my placein myself to be comfortable in
my own skin.
I couldn't imagine going toIsrael and wear a dress every
day when it was winter time, andI just could I didn't I didn't

(01:21:30):
know.
I like in my mind conceptually,I could not figure out how am I
gonna dress, wear a dress for 10days.
And I was bringing friends thatweren't Pentecostal at all, you
know, so I probably had a littlecaretaking going on there.
Um but do you remember when Icame to you to talk to you about
that?

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:48):
A little bit, yeah.
I don't remember all thespecifics.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:51):
So I knew I was going with the Haneys, I knew I
was gonna be going with CLC, andI I knew probably everyone else
was gonna be wearing dresses.
But it was very important to meto walk this out with God
vertically and to be true tomyself.
And if I would have worn a dresson that trip instead of um

(01:22:13):
leggings and sports clothes thatI ended up wearing, I f I feel
like I would have been in alittle bit of jeopardy within
myself because I would have beendoing it all for the wrong
reasons.
But you told me, Kath, you wearwhat you you wear what you're

(01:22:34):
gonna wear.
You're probably gonna be morenoticeable because you don't fit
in, because you're not wearing adress, you're probably gonna
stand out even more, and I don'tthink that's what you really
want to do.
Um, but you you know, you dowhat you feel you need to do,
essentially.
Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_02 (01:22:54):
Yeah, vaguely.

SPEAKER_01 (01:22:56):
Yeah.
Um, but I but I did talk to mypastor because my heart was not
to be disrespectful.
I didn't want to bedisrespectful.
I didn't want to go having theliberty that I had in the Lord
because me and the Lord I feltwe're in a good place.
I wasn't trying to go, you know,do whatever I wanted in a

(01:23:20):
certain way and then be with allthese Christians.
I was never trying to berespectful, but I was really,
really trying to stay true tomyself and let God do that work
in me over time.
And and going to Israel helpedme a great deal in that for the

(01:23:42):
first time I really had adifferent lens to see modesty
through.
Uh bigger than just aPentecostal environment.
Uh because I just could neverget it.
But probably because I was onlylooking at myself and my own
little world, I didn't, I didn'tnotice if people noticed me.

(01:24:03):
I didn't care if people noticed.
I just it wasn't important tome, so I wasn't paying attention
to it.
But when I when I went toIsrael, I got to see how the
other women dressed.
And I got to see how they, youknow, didn't wear makeup.
Other women like our people.
It is Jewish people, yeah, isIsraeli ladies and and even the

(01:24:27):
Islamic community, because wewere in sometimes the Islamic
communities, they actuallyunderstood it from a very
different perspective, but froma religious perspective also in
following their custom andculture and holiness standards.
And so I came out of that tripreally thinking, wow, that makes

(01:24:54):
so much sense.
It gave me a bigger context tolook at than just the way that I
was raised.
And I could see from a broaderlens what it really meant in
other cultures.
And Pentecostalism is, I mean,everything that we believe from
the Bible came from Israelbecause that's where Jesus came

(01:25:14):
from, right?
That's where everything waswritten.
So that helped a lot.
And then um I came to you about,I think I came to you to ask
about the pants and dressesissue.
Probably a couple years.
And the reason I did that isbecause when I came back from

(01:25:35):
Israel, um, I was very moved onthat trip in many ways, but I
went to landmark right afterthat.
And as I was sitting inlandmark, I went by myself.
The Lord just really began tospeak to me, and everything had
come full circle for me, Ithink.

(01:25:56):
That one night in landmark, itwas a Tuesday night, and but the
Lord began to speak to me, andhe told me, I have called you to
this.
And I didn't know what the thiswas other than our apostolic

(01:26:19):
movement, to the UnitedPentecostal movement, to the
holiness standards that I alwaysviewed.
I felt like the Lord was saying,This is what I've called you to.
And in the weeks and monthsafter, I just said, Yes, okay,

(01:26:39):
because I want him.
I've only ever wanted him.
But I had to unpack all thewounds from childhood and all of
the religiosity that came withit, and just be able to get a
clear picture of the Lord.
So when I came back, I asked youabout the the pants thing.

(01:27:01):
Um, because I I was obviouslystill just trying to be myself
and I didn't have a really goodreason not to wear them.
Um, do you remember what yousaid to me then?

SPEAKER_02 (01:27:12):
I think I do because it's it goes back kind of a
little bit to our conversationbefore, and that is image.
Um when when you when you lookat someone who is uh you know,
like um trying to change theirgender or whatever, the first
thing they do is some verynoticeable things that is

(01:27:35):
clearly the opposite of whatthey are.
So if they're a woman and theywant to be like a man, the first
thing they do is cut their hairand put on pants.
It's unmistakable, it's everysingle time, and vice versa.
Man wants to look like a woman,first thing he does grows his
hair out in some weird way andtries to put a dress on, which

(01:27:56):
just doesn't work.
And so, but it's so much a partof the the identity of a man as
a man and a woman as a womanthat you automatically they
automatically know, evenunconsciously, they're saying
this is the right image.
I always I thought that was afascinating thing.

(01:28:18):
I think that's what I related toyou is there's just something
about it.
There's something very feminine,there's something very um modest
about uh a woman who wears adress and it is very feminine,
it's very in the image of Ithink what what God wants,
desires.

SPEAKER_01 (01:28:37):
Yeah.
And that that helped because Ihad chosen to stay and remain in
our apostolic movement, and Iknew, okay, now that I made this
decision, I felt like Godclearly told me this is what
He's called me to, this is whatI was born into, this is my
heritage.
I needed then to be able tounderstand.

(01:29:00):
And so we were we were meetingfor lunch that day to have some
of these conversations.
And as I drove up, I had seen atrans man dressed as a woman in
a dress.
I mean, like literally, I parkedmy car and it walked right in
back of me.
And so that image was just soreticent in that moment.

(01:29:22):
And I thought, okay, I couldlive with that.
That is that is something that Ican take with me and then be
able to give an answer tosomeone else, you know, about um
why I choose to wear a dress.
And, you know, he knows all thisbecause we've had all these

(01:29:42):
conversations, but I wanted todo this podcast for anyone out
there who struggles with this.
Like that struggle is real, youknow, and it is so important for
us to be comfortable in our skinbecause we're so.
Vulnerable on the inside.

(01:30:03):
I had someone tell me once, andit really hit me between the
eyes.
He was a very close friend ofmine, and he just said it so
matter-of-factly.
He said, Kathy, you built such aperfect image on the outside
that no one can get close toyou.
It's the mask you wear.
And I don't think he understoodthe depth of that truth.

(01:30:28):
But sometimes how we do look isa mask that we wear.
And it certainly had become themask that I wore because I
identified more in how I presentmyself because I'm really afraid
of being hurt, you know?
And so we can often see howsomeone looks on the outside is

(01:30:50):
weaponry, is armor from peoplebeing able to see us on the
inside.
And so learning to find myselfinto who I am as an apostolic,
you know, is so different.
And and and my pastor uh wasvery gentle and and really

(01:31:16):
helped me.
You said you you will find yourway, you'll find how you fit,
and you'll find your own styleagain.
And it it has taken some time.

SPEAKER_02 (01:31:26):
I remember how I remember that conversation.
You're like, I just don't knowhow I would look because you
were have always been veryfocused on fashion and you
always have dressed, you know,like I said, always up to date
and and looked always lookedgood.
Um, I said, you'll figure itout, you'll figure out a style
that's unique and your own.
And I think you've done that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:31:47):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, in thatconversation that day, back to
the jewelry thing, I used towear this thumb ring, and you
reached over and pulled at it,and you go, What does this mean?
You said, What does this mean?
And and you know, it reallymeant nothing.

(01:32:09):
There was no significance to it,there was no memory attached to
it, it would had not been givenas a gift.
And I I thought, okay, so I tookit off that day.
I never put it back on.
But I I was intrigued by thethings that you notice, you
know, and I know you're veryprophetic, so I I think of that

(01:32:30):
too often, you know, nothinggets by you.
And so when you comment onsomething, I pay attention to
giving me a lot more credit.
Well, well, I do know that aboutyou, but um anyways, I just I
wanted to have this conversationbecause you know, in total
transparency for me, especiallyfor people from our church that

(01:32:53):
watch this podcast.
Um I'm working on this stuff,and and you know that we talk
frequently about stuff.
Um, but it is a process, youknow, and and I whatever choices

(01:33:13):
that get made in my life, I wantto make sure that I have really
clear and good reasons for them.
Because if I'm honest, I I don'tthink everything that we well,
you're gonna have to chime inhere.
There is a difference betweensalvation issues and standard

(01:33:37):
issues, and that's the argumentmost people make is this isn't
gonna take you to hell.
This isn't a heaven or hellissue.
So a lot of these things are notheaven and hell issues, but what
I did notice when I ultimatelysaid is there's such a marked

(01:33:58):
difference in an apostolicchurch when people do kind of
abide by those holinessstandards that have been set
forth and the power of God thatmoves in that environment.
And there's to me, I can't denythat because I have gone to

(01:34:18):
other churches and felt thepresence of the Lord, but it
isn't the same.
The depth seems to be absent.
And I and I think there's reallysomething to it to it, but um
yeah, yeah.
I guess that was the statement.

SPEAKER_02 (01:34:36):
Yeah, a good statement.
Yeah, I think but I I I would uhagree with you.
I think there's there's there isa depth and it's unmistakable.
And I and I was so thankful,like when you were when God had
moved on you and you're comingback and you could just see your
struggle.
And I love that you know, youdon't do anything until you've

(01:34:57):
thought it out.
And I think because you feellike you also have to are be
able not only to give an answer,not only for uh in your own
self, but to others.
So this is why I do what I do.
This is why I love that becauseyou're never you're not in a
hurry.
I try to make sure that you'renot in a hurry um as a pastor,
because I want every decisionyou make to be like this comes,

(01:35:19):
this has come not only be fromthe word from God speaking to
me, but also good teaching anddirection.
Um, I don't want it to be likelike we've talked about.
I I'm trying to prevent exactlywhat I the damage that we've
seen, right?
Because it has affected a greatmany people in our in our
organization who grew up andlove God and care and have depth

(01:35:42):
uh you know in in relationship.
They've experienced Jesus onsuch an amazing level.
And then these things destroybecause, like you talked about,
I think early on, when you kindof you put all you got all
involved and you did all theoutward expression, um, and then
you saw people who were not whowere following some sort of

(01:36:05):
guidelines and standards, andyet their heart was it was not
even real, is not genuine.
But from outwardly, they lookedright, but inwardly, it's it was
exactly what Jesus was, in mymind, exactly what Jesus was
talking about when he looked atthe Pharisees.
He said, You're whitedsepulchers, you have this
beautiful outward appearance,but inside is death, is dead

(01:36:27):
men's bones.
And that's how damaging holinessstandards are, um when they're
not genuine, they're just anoutward expression.
It's it's it's pretty on theoutside, it it's following the
rules or whatever, but it has noit has no validity.
And when it when you see it, thehypocrisy of it is destroying,

(01:36:53):
it destroys everything ittouches.
When I came back to God, andI'll just relate this quick
story to you, is when I cameback to God, the first time God
spoke to me was about a girl,and I was in a I was in a a
class, and this this girl walkedin.
I was single, I was of age, Iwas, you know, and this this

(01:37:18):
girl walked in, and she was uhBetty Betty Pentecost.
She was, I mean, she hadeverything dialed in, head to
toe.
Her hair was long or somethinglike that.
Her hair, yeah, hair uncut,links, and all this other,
everything was in its place.
It looked picture perfect,right?
And I looked and said, Oh, this,you know, that girl's

(01:37:41):
Pentecostal.
She's, you know, like, and andthat was such a contrast from
the world that I thought, thisis beautiful.
And immediately the Lord spoketo me.
He said, Don't even go close toher.
And I thought to my and Iremember just kind of sitting
back in my chair going, one, Godjust spoke to me.
Two, why is he, you know, whywhy is this?
And that was probably the bestdirection God had ever given me

(01:38:09):
in my life.
And it was very clear, verypoignant, and it not to impugn
that person, they were goingthrough their own struggles at
the time and what have you.
But God looked down the road inmy life and said, if you get
close to her, she will destroyyou.
And it and um and it all of thatwas true, all of that was true,

(01:38:32):
and and I think about thedifferent things and how that
God led me to my wife.
Um, and and um, and how it howthat the beauty of holiness was
so genuine in her.
Um, I saw her from a long wayoff, and the Lord said, you
know, there's your wife.

(01:38:52):
And I saw, I mean, she was way,she had to be 200 yards away
from me down in the altarpraying.
I think I was in it was atBakersfield at youth convention.
I saw her way down in thecorner, just off by herself,
just worshiping God, praisingGod.
I thought, who in the world?
And God said, There's your wife.
And I said, Who is this?
And so I made my way down towhere she was at.

(01:39:12):
I sat, you know, five, six rowsback off the off the front after
service was over, and I thought,I better find out who this is.
She turns around and it's it's agirl I knew from from junior
camp growing up.
She was I I met her when I was Ithink I was 11 and she was 10.
So it's like I knew her allalong, and um, but that that

(01:39:37):
reality of true holiness wasseen in her.
She wasn't, she didn't, she wasoff by herself.
She had care.
Yeah, she didn't care.
Everybody else is like packingtheir stuff up.
Oh, where where are we gonna go?
We're gonna go to Woody's, we'regonna go here, who's who's going
with who?
Everyone else is having thosediscussions.
They're out in the lobby,they're they're already gone,

(01:39:59):
and she's just down thereworshiping.
And the Lord said, That's yourwife, that's who you need in
your life.
That's what you're um, that'swhat I need from you for you.
That's gonna help you.
And uh he's I mean, and uh, Iwas obedient to that, and I and
I, you know, of course she wasgorgeous too, but yeah, which

(01:40:19):
also made it super easy.
Um, but the the the two met,right?
The the idea of holiness andgenuineness was real.
It was not it was not put on, itwas not it, it was not just some
outward thing that she wastrying to measure up with.
Yeah, it was real, it was itcame from here.
And and even though in my earlyattempts to dissuade her from

(01:40:42):
certain positions of holiness,she was she would resist to the
core because that's not who shewas, right?
Um, even in some of you know, sothat strength that she had uh a
woman that takes that kind ofstrength position where her
covering, her head um was solid,right?

(01:41:07):
Um her dad raised her like that.
Her she was submitted to herdad, then she was submitted uh
to the word of God.
And then as a husband, shesubmitted unto me.
That headship and authority felldirectly.
God knew I needed that withouther strength.
I I would never be even close towhere I'm at.

(01:41:27):
I would have been destroyedvery, very, very easily.
But God knows how to bring thatright strength into your life,
and um He did.
So it was in such contrast herher life was in such contrast to
where God spoke to me.

SPEAKER_06 (01:41:44):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:41:45):
And so that's that whole concept of the whited
sepulchre and and Jesus coming,you know, that the other story
of Jesus coming to the the figtree, right?
And he comes to this tree, itlooks like it should have fruit.
And then he comes to it and hasnothing on it.
He was so he cursed, he cursedit.

(01:42:07):
That's very strong, and itwithered away directly.
And and and I think that's sucha stark reality that in in
living for God, in trying to beholy, it cannot be an outward
expression, it cannot be just uhsomething put on.
It better bear fruit, it betterhave a 100% fruit involved,

(01:42:30):
right?
Um, and I think that's the truechallenge of holiness is not
just not just having the outsideright, but having the inside
right that produces the fruit ofthe outside.

SPEAKER_06 (01:42:43):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:42:43):
That's the challenge.
And I think um when that's donecorrectly, it's so so gorgeous,
it's so beautiful.
And uh it destroys the yoke.
Um it destroys the yoke of ofpeople who are this is what I
mean by destroying the yoke.
So like there in our society, inour world, there is perversion,

(01:43:07):
lust is like a yoke on people,on men especially.
So when um when a woman walks intrue holiness, it he cannot,
it's almost like uh spiritually,there's like a block.
He cannot look at a woman who'swalking in true holiness and be
lustful and have he's like, Oh,that girl's different, and he

(01:43:29):
moves on.
Yeah, it's a it's a it's a it'sa barrier, it's a it's a it's a
spiritual barrier.
It's a holiness barrier that'sbuilt around her.
He he it is so much he that manwants to peer into her soul,
into her person.
He can't do it.

(01:43:49):
There's a border.
There's a whole there's athere's a there's a this this is
a shrouding of her life, andit's accepted and like
understood spiritually and moveon.
Yeah, because there's um but thereality of that is uh is to me
very very seen.

(01:44:09):
Now this is what the is anyway,I think this is the attempt of
what Islam tries to do, butwithout the spirit, right?
And without the spirit, it justgets more and more and more and
more and more.
My dad was in Kuwait and uh andIraq and different deployments
and stuff like that, and hetalked about one of the things

(01:44:30):
he talked about was being thereand seeing women in burkas.
And he said, you know, they'rethey are covert, man, head to
toe.
He said, but what was in theireyes is the same as every
American girl.
Yeah, you can see it because youcan't and that the Bible says

(01:44:51):
eyes are the windows.

SPEAKER_01 (01:44:52):
See the stall?

SPEAKER_02 (01:44:53):
He said there the difference was so like the
outward, sure.
But inside, you see those eyes,they there the eyes were saying
a completely different thing.
And he says, People are people.
Yeah.
And that's and I I thought thatwas so profound.
And then him seeing that andexpressing that, I thought that
was that was so interestingbecause it it is as much as as

(01:45:15):
much as much as Islam and otheruh religions realize the
importance and the effect ithas, if it doesn't come from the
heart, it's still invalid.
Right.
Right doesn't matter how manythings you got covered, yeah.
Uh it it it uh you can't replacetrue holiness that comes from

(01:45:39):
the inside, the fruit of it.
Yeah, it can't, it will alwayscome out.

SPEAKER_01 (01:45:43):
Right.
Yeah.
And I will say too, for justusing your analogy, everyone who
is single is looking for a mate,a spouse.
And you know, the best way toguard against the wrong one is
by being the right one yourself.
Because like if you are livingholy, if there is that barrier

(01:46:05):
there, then that automaticallychecks someone else's
intentions, you know, and andyou don't want someone who
doesn't have real genuineintentions for longevity and and
mostly for God.
So so that's huge, I think, too.

SPEAKER_02 (01:46:20):
Yeah, I think that's the danger, right?
So like single people comingback um to God and and realizing
the relationships that theybuilt in the world were based on
a bunch of nonsense and stuffthat just fades away over time.

SPEAKER_01 (01:46:34):
Well, just based on lust and sex and all that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:46:37):
I didn't want to say it like that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:46:38):
Well, I'll say it for you because I mean this is
where people are living.

SPEAKER_02 (01:46:42):
Yeah, yeah.
100%.
And that's what I think is soawesome is you see these people
starting to come back to God andthey're going, everything that I
used to think about this, this,and this, all the things that I
thought I needed in the world,those are really invalid.
Those are really things that Idon't want, actually.
I realize that those are veryshallow um experiences.
Those are very shallow.

(01:47:03):
Um, there's a very brief bit ofenjoyment in this or that or
what have you, right?
And so coming back to God, youstart to say, Lord, what is it
that you want?
What kind of person can you putin my life that will be my
strength in my time of weakness,that will be my uh better half,
you know.
Right, right.
Um where is that person?

(01:47:24):
Who is that person?
And I think, like you said, Ithink it's such a powerful thing
is if you want to want thatperson, you must also be that
person, right?
You want to be the the um, andand I feel like if we're patient
enough, God will bring us to theright person in in in his
timing.
Yeah, and really that's all youwant.

(01:47:46):
You don't want it in your timingbecause your timing already is
messed up, obviously.
Right.
But relying on his timing inthat and being patient in that,
being contented in that.
I know I've seen you over manyyears and and you've had
different relationships, butI've seen you also just dig your
heels in in being single andsaying, I'm just I'm in love

(01:48:10):
with Jesus, I'm going to be inlove with Jesus, I'm not going
anywhere.
And I've seen that in you.
I've I've I just want you toknow how proud of you I am in
that is because it it's veryreal.
Like, um, it's not an outward,it's not an you know, something
you're just saying and you'relike secretly searching for this
man, right?
If that were the case, I don'tuh you could you could have uh a

(01:48:34):
hundred suitors knocking downyour door.
I have no no no uh otherthought, but you're refusing
that position because you're inlove with him, and I think that
is a beautiful thing to witnessand see.
Um, and I think if the Lordbrings that person, that the
Lord will bring that person,yeah.

(01:48:55):
And I think you have to becontented in the idea that if he
doesn't, I'm happy with Christand this world's not my home,
and I'm going to I have betterthings, like you know, heaven,
we're not gonna be worryingabout the things that we're
worried about here.
Here we're worried about youknow practical matters, yeah,

(01:49:16):
like sexuality and all theseother yeah.
That is gonna be so below us,yeah, in the heavenlies, and we
can't because it's such a partand such a driving force in our
lives today, we think, oh, thenheaven will, you know, we'll be
having I don't know, you know.
I just think that people want totransition, transfer that

(01:49:39):
thought because it's such a partof our life today.
And Jesus said, in heaventhere's neither male nor female.
So what are you gonna do withthat?
Right.
Because that's not he's makingthe point, just like he makes
the point that the mostexpensive thing, the most
valuable thing in our earthtoday is gold, we're gonna be
walking on those things.
And that I think that sameparadigm is Jesus is trying to

(01:50:02):
show that what we so value andthink are so much necessity in
this life and this world are notgonna be that important.

SPEAKER_01 (01:50:11):
Yeah.
No, it's not.

SPEAKER_02 (01:50:13):
So if you're focused on sex and you're just, you
know, the heavenlies is gonna bea celestial whatever.

SPEAKER_01 (01:50:23):
Yeah, I think people I think that's ridiculous.
Yeah, they just don't know howto just live.
But I think every stage that youwalk through in in your choice
to pursue the Lord in this way,the holiness way, the
abstinence, all being single,waiting for God, is always gonna

(01:50:45):
reveal something within us.
Like, and and I believeultimately God wants to heal
every single piece of our heart.
And so when I bump against, soon Thanksgiving, I'm gonna tell
you about about thecaterpillars.
I'm gonna tell them about thecaterpillars.
So at Thanksgiving, I was havinga conversation with him, a

(01:51:08):
pastoral conversation about somethings in my own life, and he he
talked to me about my eyelashes.
Oh, and second time he's calledthem caterpillars.
But that, you know what how muchof a distraction it is.
And um, and I'm like, I'm I'mnot married to him, but I have

(01:51:30):
had eyelashes for almost 20years, 19 years.
So 19 years I've been wearingeyelashes to, you know, feel
better about myself, I guess.
Um, but the point of saying thatis everything that I let go of,
I'm bumping up against my owninsecurity and having to expose

(01:51:59):
that insecurity to the Lord andletting him do the work in it,
you know.
Um, and and that's that's thehard thing, right?
It's because it's not aboutlashes, no lashes, not about
wearing lipstick, no lipstick,you know, it's not about any of
that.

(01:52:19):
It's about um being able to lovemyself, yeah.
You know, being able to look inthe mirror and feel like I can
face my clients today and andfeel like I have some form of
self-confidence, you know, andthat that's a slippery slope

(01:52:41):
too.
But, you know, my point in allof this is the things that I
have let go of in order to inorder to live this life in what
I know God told me I was calledto, um, it's bumped up against
my own wounds and humanity andand insecurities.

(01:53:04):
And I think for the backslider,you know, I definitely don't
want you to come back and haveto fit in a mold.
I know that you don't wantanyone to come back and fit into
a mold.
It's super needful that you knowyourself and that you can begin
to just get vertical with Godand just find the Lord.

(01:53:27):
Because, and then for thosethat's been back for a little
while, you know, every new thingthat God presents to us is an
invitation for deeper healing,in my opinion, and deeper
relationship with Him.
And ultimately, God is not thisis gonna sound contrary, you can

(01:53:52):
fix it from a pastoral place.
But God is not a God ofjudgment, He's not sitting there
waiting for us to be perfectbefore He's gonna love us or
even move in our life, butrather He knows that how much
bondage sometimes we are in bythe things, you know, there's so

(01:54:14):
many little things that nevershow up on the outside
appearance that we could do thatkeeps us captive.
You know, and um and God istrying to do all of those
things, not that not just theoutside.
Like you said, the outside justcomes naturally as we grow

(01:54:35):
closer to the Lord, and I thinkthat's the way it should be.
But um, but God is not punitive,He's not sitting there waiting
for you to be a certain way forHim to love you.
He just loves you, yeah, youknow, and I I don't want you
know, I ask him to have thisconversation because I don't

(01:54:57):
want any backslider, anyprodigal to not come back to
church because of what theythink they have to comply with.

SPEAKER_02 (01:55:09):
Yeah.
I hope that's what thisconversation destroys.
This has been my prayer aboutthis conversation is that Lord
help help help me to destroysome of those things, those
concepts that are built up inour own minds, because I think
that ultimately you've playedout.
I've watched you play out in inyour walk back to God is that I

(01:55:30):
didn't I didn't require a bunchof stuff out of you up front.
I'm not requiring a I but youhave step by step, God has
revealed these things to you.
And you've made those changes.
We are the all all I think thatthe backslider has to do is say,
I'm just a lump of clay, let meget back on the potter's wheel.

(01:55:52):
Um and if we're if we'll allowour hearts to be in that
position, God will build us theway He wants us to be.
Yeah, and it won't, it will bebeautiful, it will be
incredible, it will not feelawkward, it will not be strange
to us, it'll be like, Yeah, Idon't know why I haven't been
this my whole life.
This is who I am.

SPEAKER_01 (01:56:12):
Ultimately, yes.

SPEAKER_02 (01:56:13):
And it's just been buried by all these other
things, yeah, and tarnished andtainted by all the the different
you know things that we've beentrying to be or do in our lives,
and we fell into these differentmolds because of that.
And Jesus is just saying, comeon, just be that lump, be the
lump of clay again.
Let me put my hands back on you,let me form you.

(01:56:34):
Uh, can't I reform you?
And and and I think the the thespirit is very clear that he
does.
That's why I was so confident.
I know when you when you cameback and you're saying, you
know, I don't know, I you knowthis.
I said, as long as you'll listento the Lord, because I know the
way the Lord works, and that ishe always changes what he
touches.

(01:56:54):
Yeah, he never leaves anybody inthe condition they're in.
I don't care how good or how faraway they are from God, he never
leaves people in the conditionthey're in.
He brings them really to hisdesign for them.

SPEAKER_01 (01:57:06):
Yeah, complete redemption and and restoration,
yeah, even to restore.
And that and that's what like Ifeel like I could have stayed on
the pew and went to heaven, andyou know, I could have not done
all any of the things and lived,but I also would have lived
without the more of God that Iwas searching for, you know.

(01:57:29):
I I think that for me, I wantmore of him, and so at every
little crossroads, there's many,many crossroads he presents.
Okay, if you want more, yeah,you can go this way or you can
stay this way.
And like literally, you have toponder and consider that because

(01:57:51):
there is a price to pay.
But it is a glorious price whenyou when you make a choice to
pay the price, it's not costly.

SPEAKER_03 (01:58:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:58:03):
Because the reward of what we get in return is
everything.
Yeah, you know, and and I don'tknow for people out there, I
wish I could convey.
I wish I could convey what thatfeels like, what that looks

(01:58:26):
like.
When you just make one smalldecision to say, okay, God, I'm
gonna try.
Because that one small decisionto give God a chance again in
your life will be the best thingyou ever did, you know, because
there is nothing that cancompete with his presence.

(01:58:49):
There's there's nothing that cancompete to his voice, you know,
speaking to you in a moment.
I was in danger once in my in myoffice, and the Lord just
clearly spoke.
He's gonna hurt you, he couldhurt you.
And it was a word of warning,and it was just so clear, and
like there's just nothing thatcompares to being positionally

(01:59:15):
set to hear him without thenoise of the world, without the
noise of our inner uh our innerum cognitive dissonance that
takes place.
It's it's just pureness becausethat connection has been

(01:59:36):
re-established.

SPEAKER_02 (01:59:37):
Yeah.
I think it's so it's such abeautiful moment because it is,
it's to me that you just feel aperson feels so much more in
their skin when they're walkingin un in unity with with the
Lord.
The stuff that I think God justas we're walking, the the stuff,

(01:59:58):
the cares of this world just.
kind of fall off.
They just the the the you knowall the requirements that we had
put on ourselves from what thisperson thought or that person
what we should those things justkind of fall off when you're in
that really close relationshipwith Jesus and you just feel so
in your skin it's like yeah itit it's like I I've been waiting

(02:00:18):
to be here my whole life.
Yeah I'm finally I'm finallywalking in in that in that unity
with him and it's it's a it'sthe best thing ever.
I feel like that's where that'swhere holiness is walking with
him like that.

SPEAKER_01 (02:00:32):
Yeah.
Yeah and he does the work andand that's I would say let let
him do the work you said atThanksgiving you know it's the
journey the backslider does havea journey back and every little
step is is significant and Godis going to lead the backslider

(02:00:55):
through each step you know Ijust wanted them to hear a
pastor's heart because I knowmany have preconceived ideas and
that's I don't think that's theheart of the ministry now.

SPEAKER_02 (02:01:10):
No I don't think so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (02:01:13):
So um any final words to anyone listening out
there oh man I you know I Ithink it's just I I appreciate
you doing this.

SPEAKER_02 (02:01:27):
Um this is probably one of the most hurtful topics
uh as far as at least in in ourmovement um and I think it's uh
for you trying to cross thisbarrier and really trying to
bring it into a way in whichhopefully black backsliders can
see uh I just I reallyappreciate appreciate the

(02:01:48):
discussion I think it's I I hopeit I hope it can really help um
some people because really Godhe is love he's trying to bring
he's our father he's gonnaaccept us right you know um he's
just gonna accept us as a fatherand all we have to do is really
come to him as as children andthen yeah you know he takes care

(02:02:10):
of the rest we grow and maturein him and you know um I feel
like you know if you'll just bepatient with with God he'll
build up I'm I guess I'm talkingto pastors right now because uh
I feel like as pastors if we'repatient with people if we grant
people the mercy and grace thatGod has given us man it it

(02:02:33):
really is so so helpful if weget to a place where we're just
demanding people to do things aspastors I think that's um I
think it's very ineffective.
I think it creates a um a agroup that may be obedient to a
man but not to God.
I think it has these kind ofcatastrophic outcomes but if

(02:02:57):
we're patient with people andgive them grace and mercy and
and and really allow God to workin their life it's amazing to
see how quickly God does thework and how truly uh
efficiently he does it becauseit comes from inside yeah and uh
it's true change that lasts Ithink my pastor brother McPhail

(02:03:20):
always said when I was growingup uh a man convinced against
his will of a is of the samemind still he would repeat that
a number of times that's manconvinced against his will is of
the same mind still it's true.
It's it's words that I thinkhave just all I've always lived
by and I think is so so true andespecially when it comes to

(02:03:42):
these kind of things is peoplecan demand all kind of religious
nonsense like the Pharisees didand the you know um demand
things of people who don't whotheir heart is not there.

SPEAKER_06 (02:03:55):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (02:03:55):
And so there really is a heart condition.
Right.
And so when they're out they'redone you know all that stuff
soon as you know kids that growup in and I I was a youth pastor
uh you know for for many yearsyou know you see these kids they
grow up in church and they saysoon as I'm 18 I am out of here
I will never I you know and Ithink oh God please let them see

(02:04:16):
the beauty before it's too lateyou know but some of them don't
and they they dip out and theyare gone so and and um you know
they have a number of strugglesand then when if they ever turn
and when God is working on themthey turn back they're like man
what did I what was I doing?
And it's almost like they havethis just come you know you know

(02:04:40):
prodigal moment where they comeback and they're like wow I I
didn't realize the mercy and thegrace.
I didn't understand I didn'tunderstand my parents were
trying to help me right theyweren't trying to destroy my
life they were trying to buildup barriers to protect me.
Right right they were trying todo these things they were
putting these boundaries upbecause they know the the
enemies out there and trying toyou know trying to attack and I

(02:05:05):
think if we realized how muchpeople cared about us those who
you know come in and say oh thestandards the standard really
those people if you peeled backall the stuff that builds up
around this this this topic youpeeled all that back you'll see
a heart that's somebody a parentthat loves their child right a
pastor that loves their flockright you may have

(02:05:27):
misinterpreted how it comes acomacross but the essence was
somebody who truly loved you whowas truly cared about your soul
right and put these things inaction thinking that this would
be the best yeah I think I thinkit was all all those things were
done with a pure heart.

SPEAKER_01 (02:05:45):
Yeah and and I definitely can see that now as
someone who's come back I canunderstand the reasons now um
looking back and and I I doactually believe we were very
protected in lots of waysbecause of how we lived that
others weren't yeah so truly allright well I love you you're a

(02:06:08):
great pastor and thank you forbeing here again well thank you
thank you yeah and for anyoneout there I hope I hope this
helps please please pleaseplease please don't let the
outward appearance keep you fromcoming back to church get into a
place where the Holy Ghost ismoving where God is is there and

(02:06:31):
just get back in his presenceand let him walk you through
because the the ultimate goal isto make heaven right I want to
make it to heaven and notbecause I just don't want to go
to hell but because I want tolive with the one I love the
most you know so thank you forwatching and um again if you

(02:06:53):
have a testimony to share ifyou're a backslider and have
come back um please reach out tous we would love to talk to you
and thanks again bye.

SPEAKER_00 (02:07:02):
We are so glad you joined us if you have a story of
redemption or have worn thelabel of a backslider we would
love to hear from you.
If you'd like to support ourministry your donation will be
tax deductible visit our websiteatredeemed backslider dot org we
hope you will tune in for ournext episode

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