What is Religious Abuse TRB #29 Dr. Peridot Gilbert-Reed

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When spiritual leaders become sources of harm rather than healing, the damage can reach to the very core of a person's identity and faith. Dr. Peridot Gilbert-Reed joins host Kathy Chastain to unpack the complex reality of spiritual abuse—a topic both personal and professional for this psychologist specializing in religious trauma.

Dr. Gilbert-Reed offers a powerful framework for understanding this often-misidentified form of harm, explaining how spiritual abuse occurs when authority figures use manipulation, coercion, and scripture-twisting to control others. She shares her own journey through both overt and covert religious abuse, and how these painful experiences ultimately shaped her professional work helping others heal from similar wounds.

The conversation distinguishes between religion (organized, communal) and spirituality (personal, individualized)—a crucial distinction for those who've been hurt by religious institutions but still desire a relationship with God. This explains why many become what researchers call "dones"—done with organized religion but not done with their faith journey.

For more information from Dr. Reed, visit her website at www.peridotreed.com

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider with your
host, kathy Chastain.
Christian-based psychotherapistand Redeemed Backslider.
This podcast is dedicated tothose who have wandered but are
ready to return to thelife-changing power of grace and
the freedom found in Jesus.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider.
I'm your host, kathy Chastain.
I'm a Christian-basedpsychotherapist and I'm a
Redeemed Backslider.
With me today is a colleague ofmine, dr Peridot Gilbert-Reed.
I call her Peri and I do nothave her bio with me today, but

(00:43):
she is a psychologist in thefield of religious abuse and
spiritual bypassing and I'll lether tell you a little bit more
about herself, but we did coverit in our last video with her on
spiritual bypass, so that wasepisode 25.
And if you didn't get a chanceto see it, I encourage you to go

(01:03):
back and watch it, because thatconversation is a little bit
different than the one we'regoing to have today.
So thank you again for beinghere, perry, it's good to see
you.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
Good to see you as well.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
So what did I miss in your bio?
Maybe you want to tell thepeople out there Not much.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
I'm a counselor here in Louisiana.
We're in the northern part ofLouisiana, shreveport, bezier
area.
I have my PhD.
I have a doctorate ofphilosophy with a concentration
in psychology and theology.
My passion for this is what Idid my dissertation on and how.

(01:44):
The last question is really theuh part with spiritual bypass,
and we talked a lot like yousaid a little bit about that
last time how it intersects withspiritual abuse, and so, um,
I'm passionate about this topic.
The more that people know, themore that, um, they can watch
out for how it's being done tothem, but also to be accountable
to make sure that they don't doit to somebody else.

(02:05):
So that is, I think, probablythe main things they are now
have published articles withChristianity Today and Christian
Counseling Magazine on thetopic of spiritual bypass and
spiritual abuse.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah.
So if any of you want to lookfor her work, I'll have it in
the link below, but also youcould just Google her and Google
the topic.
It'll probably come up.
And before we get started, Ijust want to say a little caveat
to the audience.
This podcast in particular is toreach the backsliders, the ones

(02:43):
that have been hurt by church,hurt by ministry, hurt in life,
whatever the reason that they'veleft their faith or left a
church in setting or left theLord.
The context of everything we doin this podcast is to reach
those and hopefully encouragethem to give God another try,

(03:08):
maybe from a different lens.
And so we talk about a lot ofdifferent subjects here, hoping
to reach them, and so, with thatin mind, nothing that we say
here is meant to throw stones atministry or Christian culture
or any particular denomination.
It is meant to just give anexample of the fallacy of men

(03:32):
and the humanity of people andhow things can happen sometimes
overtly, sometimes covertly,sometimes ignorantly that really
really make an impact in anegative way in someone's life.
And so we just want to offer adiscussion in that area, because

(03:53):
if it's you, if anybody evenattending church today has been
affected by this.
I would encourage you todiscuss it and really do some
work around it, so that itdoesn't become a root that pops
up someplace and begins to bearfruit in your life when you

(04:14):
don't really want it to.
And so, with that in mind,we're going to just jump right
in and, perry, I'll start likewe did last time.
If you could just give us adefinition of what spiritual
abuse really is.

Speaker 3 (04:29):
So spiritual abuse is an interesting term to define.
I don't know that there's onesettled definition.
However, kenneth Pergment, whenI did my research, he brought
up defining the soul and he saidit was the sacred.

(04:51):
So when you look at and I'mgoing to backtrack for a second
what religion is and whatspirituality is, religion is
organized.
It is usually a set of tenetsthat someone follows, those
types of things, whereasspirituality is individual.
It's that person's relationshipwith God.
So when we think about whatspiritual abuse is, one could

(05:15):
say and it's one that I defer toit is an abuse of the sacred,
it's an abuse of the soul.
It goes deeper than can even beimagined.
Now, johnson and Van Bonderen,who wrote the groundbreaking
work on spiritual abuse in 1991,the Subtle Power of Spiritual

(05:39):
Abuse is the title of it theydefined it as any element of
spirituality that causes harm.
Craig Cashwell I talked abouthim a little bit previously said
that anything that ispsychologically damaging cannot
be theologically sound and thatthat wait'm gonna, I'm gonna

(06:03):
pause.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
I'm gonna pause because I mean there's there's
so much to that, a few thingsthat you've said so far, but I
want you to just repeat thatanything that is psychologically
damaging cannot betheologically sound.
Wow.
Yeah because God is good andGod is perfect in all his ways,

(06:27):
and so that that's such a thatthat really encompasses so much.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
okay, I'm sorry to interrupt but continue with your
definition yeah, so you know,like I said, when it comes to
definitions, it's very hardbecause you're dealing with
different components.
Um, it is a longer definition.
It would say when anyone inauthority and this is because

(06:52):
religion, spiritual can beanywhere right, so they can be
in a religious organization,they can be within a church,
they can be within a home.
So, excuse me, when anauthority uses their power to
establish a structure thatcovertly or overtly uses tactics

(07:18):
such as coercion, manipulation,exploitation, censorship I'm
trying to get that word out aswell as promotes secrecy and
silence, and then also misusesscripture and spiritual bypass
on an individual for their owngain, then spiritual abuse has

(07:41):
occurred.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
Okay, so it is, and I'm going to back up and we're
going to break it down becausethat was huge.
So go back to the beginning.
When you said the differencebetween the sacred and the, you
described and I was grabbing mynotebook to catch some notes

(08:06):
Spirituality, and I was grabbingmy notebook to catch some notes
.
Yes, could you just slow thatdown and break that down?
So religion is.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
Religion is organized .
It's more of a communal process.
It follows a set of values andprinciples.
It can enhance our spirituality, but it's more institutional.
It's primarily material.
It's what you know.
We go to a building, often forchurch, not always but there it

(08:34):
is the communal process.
We have a set of beliefs thatwe adhere to.
Whatever religion we follow,that's religion.
So it is more of a standard perse, correct?
You know, within this organizedstructure that this is what we
do.
Yes, spirituality isindividualized.

(08:55):
It is my personal relationshipwith Christ, my image of who God
is.
It incorporates the values andthe principles that I'm learning
, but it is again individualizedin how maybe I incorporate that
into my life.
You don't need religion to bespiritual so you can have your

(09:18):
spirituality without necessarilybeing a part of a religion.
Being a part of a religion andthen it's immaterial, it's
unobservable.
When I have my time with God,that isn't meant for everybody
to be, you know, for it to beseen, it is my relationship, my
one-on-one with God and how theHoly Spirit speaks to me and

(09:40):
those types of things.
So that's the differencebetween religion and
spirituality.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
Right, and so I want to park right here for a minute,
because I think that this verything is where people get lost
and even a bit confused, becausea lot of people go to church
looking for a God, andrightfully so right.
But I think where thatbreakdown happens is when they

(10:11):
don't quite know the path tofind their own walk with God.
Some people do, some peopledon't, some people are so new to
all of it, and so they justknow okay, I want to be closer
to God, I'm going to go to achurch and I'm going to find

(10:35):
community, because we all needthat, we're wired for community,
and so a lot of times peoplecan get lost.
Their heart and their intentionis in the right place, but
unfortunately, you know, godsays for us to work out our own

(10:56):
salvation with fear andtrembling.
He does call us to anindividual walk, and so I think
this place right here brings alot of confusion to people.
It's also the place wherepeople would say I don't need to
go to church to have God, and,as you said, that could be true.

(11:19):
But the Bible also says to notforsake the assembling of
yourselves together.
Bible also says to not forsakethe assembling of yourselves
together, and it's nice to go tochurch and fellowship with
like-minded people, to beencouraged with one another, and
so I think that, when it comesto religion, this is really

(11:41):
where I think a lot of peopleget so confused and where people
really identify God with aparticular set, a denomination
or a set of rules.
I just I feel like there's alot of meat here.

(12:04):
I'm not quite sure how totweeze it all out, but I know
that in my particulardenomination that people will
leave the denomination becauseof the standard that this
particular denomination follows,similar to other denominations.

(12:24):
You know, like I don't evenknow what denominations don't
believe women to be leaders orspeakers or anything in the
church, but every denominationhas their own set of standards
that they abide within.
Right, but a walk with God issomething different.
And then you choose whichcommunity of body of believers

(12:48):
you choose to go to.
Right, yeah, right, go ahead,go ahead.

Speaker 3 (12:55):
No, you're good.
Yeah, that the research showsand, if you know, barna is a
great resource.
They do a lot of religiousresearch as well as Pew Research
Center, and so research thatcame out I want to say it was
like somewhere between 2015 and2017.

(13:17):
But they studied the nuns andthe don'ts and the nuns were
like we want nothing to do withreligion, we want nothing to do
with God.
They're going to be morealigned with.
Some were atheists, some wereagnostic, some were we don't

(13:37):
know what we believe, but it'snot that.
And then the dones were act andthen the dons were we are done
with religion.
We are not done with our faith,and part of that came from the
fact that there had been so muchreligious harm that many
individuals had incurred thatthey couldn't trust going into a

(13:58):
religious environment.
So they separated themselvesout of it and were able to say
look, I know my jesus, and thatisn't it what they right?
Yeah, you know, witnessed inthere.
So it's a very fine line,because when you've been hurt by
religious entities, it is veryhard to follow going back to a

(14:24):
church again.
It is very hard to go into aplace where community, where we
should be able to find community.
I posted a while back.
I have a you know, of course,instagram, facebook under
ParadoxReadcom, but one of thethings I said in there is people
should expect to go to a churchand find Jesus.

(14:44):
They should, no matter thecombination.
I should be able to walk in andknow that there is going to be
the God of Scripture there.
Unfortunately, what hashappened is many have not, and
so now they're trying to figureout.
How do I even navigate what Ithought I knew God to be?

(15:05):
And then, how do I ever trustgoing back into a religious
organization or even religiouspeople again?
That was one of the things inmy research a lot of people said
probably all of them.
How do we trust religiouspersons again?
How do we know that ourintention or their intention is

(15:26):
good for us and that they willcontinue to show christ as he is
in scripture, not who rightcreated him to be?

Speaker 2 (15:37):
right, I?
Um, yeah, I totally agree.
I grew up in when I wasprobably 11 years old, so I was
born and raised in church.
When I was about 11 years old,the church that I was attending

(15:57):
split the pastor we were having.
So I'm Pentecostal, so webelieve in all the expression of
the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit, and so we were seeing powerful
moves of God, powerful peoplecoming in.
The newspaper had done articleson the church because it just

(16:20):
seemed like they were floodedwith people just coming to see
what was going on there.
It was so powerful and Iremember being a little kid, you
know we'd get out of churchreally late on Sunday nights
because there was such apowerful move.
Well, and then one day we foundout that the pastor was hiring

(16:41):
prostitutes and gambling and wehad a building fund to build the
church over.
At that time was over a milliondollars in the fund, which was
a lot of money back in the 1970s, and only to find out it had
all been squandered, and so itwas a really big blow.

(17:02):
My family, along with otherfamilies, had left the church
and there was a lot of people, Ithink, that did not survive
that split that fell away fromGod because of that, and
obviously we can see how and why.
But there was also a very largecore group of people who, um,

(17:26):
really had a walk with God andwe are the church that I attend
today.
But when they brought inanother pastor, there was a
board of people the core boardof people that had decided okay,
we're just going to keep goingtrying to follow God.

(17:47):
And they brought in a pastorwho was the most humble and
loving and gracious man.
I mean, I don't think I've evermet another person like him
since, but just loving, loving,loving, and he really did
nurture us back to the abilityto follow again somebody else.

(18:13):
But he taught us very clearlythey need to bear the fruit of
the Lord.
You don't just follow blindly,you watch their life, you watch
how God works in their life.
But that happens, you know,we're seeing it in the headlines
today and, um, and I see peoplearound town that used to go to

(18:39):
church before that happened andit was, it was a major, major
thing in our little city, um,but I see people around town
that used to go and I think Iwonder where they are with the
Lord.
I wonder if that wrecked themin their faith or if they found
another avenue to find the Lordand went back to their

(19:01):
relationship with him.
So that was just a little bitof my history and I feel very
fortunate that my family wasable to survive that.
But it happens a lot and thereare those very real examples of
abuse.

Speaker 3 (19:19):
Yeah, there are, they're all around and it
doesn't take.
You know, you go to Netflix,you can go to Hulu, you can go
to these different things andsee some of the greatest falls,
unfortunately, in sex over that.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, and what was your story, perry?
Because you did yourdissertation based on your own
experience.
So what prompted all this foryou?

Speaker 3 (19:49):
So, um, there are two things.
One is I've had very overt typeof spiritual abuse.
This is where there's no doubtyou, you're in it.
You're looking at going.
That's not right.
And then I've had very covertabuse where it is a lot of
spiritual bypass, a lot ofspiritual gaslighting to where

(20:11):
you're walking away going.
I don't even know which way isup or down.
So it started, I would probablysay.
Now I've had slights throughout.
I mean I went to a Baptistcollege.
It was one of the bestexperiences.
I'm so thankful.
I have no doubt God was in it,but there were moments where I
had that there.
Like I said, anywhere religionis, you can have some religious

(20:34):
views.
Anywhere spirituality is,there's a chance for spiritual
bypass.
But when was a lot?

(20:55):
It was overt in that, unlikeseeing this, other people in the
office are seeing it.
However, nobody's doinganything and I didn't know what
to do.
Often, what we find withreligious abuse is and some
people have asked this why didpeople not go tell?
Who were they going to tell?
The only person to tell is theone that abused you.

(21:17):
You're not going to getvalidation from that, right.
And so, um, I had a lot of whatwould be called workplace
workplace bullying, um,spiritual.
And then it was turned on me.
Well, I need to be nicer, Ineed to be kinder.
I'm the problem.
I was even told there was asituation where literally there

(21:37):
were four of us three went tolunch women and then I didn't.
And when that was brought upbecause we had an animal review
I was even told that like hewent to the people and said, hey
, did this happen?
They come back.
And he said, well, yeah, butthey said you're hard to get

(21:58):
along with.
I'm like and that's okay, youknow like, but again I wasn't
healthy enough I'm going to saythis for myself because I was
going through changes.
God was working in my heart andreally trying to get me
mentally and emotionally healthyonce again, to be able to start
seeing some of this Right.
And so I was like, well, maybeI need to work harder.

(22:21):
So I went with some of thespiritual bypass elements given
to me, like turn the other cheek, remember it's important to
forgive.
Maybe you know I wouldn't killhim with kindness Not helpful,
right Because all I did was denymy pain while trying to please
someone else.
And so that continued for abouttwo or three years until the

(22:43):
point that I just could not takeit anymore.
I got married to a pastor thereand I was supposed to leave to
go finish my or begin my work incounseling, actually finish it
up with my practicum.
And I was to the point I wasgoing to leave.
I was supposed to exit in May.

(23:03):
I came in and said I'm done, Iwas tired of going home every
day and crying, I was tired ofwrecking.
I mean it was so blatant that Iwas on being out and so it
wasn't until then that it wasaddressed.
But even then it was turnedback on me.
So that was the very overt Um.
From there I left and did mycounseling um practicum and

(23:27):
that's where we have to practicea lot of this stuff.
But you have supervision, allthe things.
And then once I graduated, Iwent into a Christian counseling
firm and they are experiencedvery covert abuse.
It was a covert narcissist thatled it.
It was the covert abuse of,again, a lot of spiritual
gaslighting.

(23:48):
You know he would.
We would be told we're allowedto ask questions, but then when
we asked questions, you're notsupposed to go against authority
, because I, like you, I'mwilling to share this with you.
But this isn't really yours toknow.
But it's like well, you justtold me I can ask questions.
And then often we'd be calledout in prayer and ask questions,

(24:13):
and then often we'd be calledout in prayer, that was fun, so
a lot of things like that.
And once I left from the veryovert abuse within the church, I
could not handle going there.
In fact, my husband was onstaff there and it was very hard
for us to um grieve what washappening because he was still

(24:35):
there and I was still having tohear the things that were
happening there and I helped theway and the people that are
just enjoying life and I'm likethose people.
What felt like at the timeruined mine.
Um and I did not attend churchfor about a year and then COVID
hit and then I was so really twoyears and I kind of eased back

(24:57):
in, but on the heels of thecovert abuse.
Here's the craziness.
Kind of cool how God works,right.
Is that those experienceshelped me write my dissertation.
Those experiences allowed me tosee I'm not the only one and
people need help in overgrowing.

(25:17):
I had often had people I mean, Ihave a background in studying
the phenomenon of religiousabuse when I was in my undergrad
at my Bible school, and so Ihad some knowledge of it and
could bring language to that andI had several people coming
into my office even prior to allof this happening.
But now, now I had a reallyfulfilled language and really

(25:41):
saw the purpose of that painthat I went through, and I don't
know that I ever questioned God.
What I did question was God,why am I suffering and they're
having the time of their life?
It felt like a real injusticeto watch all of these people

(26:01):
prosper and I was just hangingout back here with my heart.
Just it felt like cut all openfor everybody to see, and so it
took a very long time for me toheal from that and a lot of
therapy.
Actually, when you get intospiritual or religious abuse,

(26:24):
you definitely if you're seekingcounseling for something like
that I'm just going to take thislittle caveat make sure that
the therapist does have traumatraining, does understand that
there is a unique component whenit comes to the spiritual
aspect, and if you, you willwant to find someone that at
least has some understanding andcan incorporate that in there.
There was no one here.

(26:45):
I actually went to Dallas, whichis about three hours away, to
get some counseling over thatand, if anything, just to be
validated that what in the worldI had experienced was real.
There's a lot of times thatjust you haven't been able to
trust anything else and becauseyou've been told for so long,
the coercion, the manipulation,the censorship, all of that the

(27:08):
spiritual bypass makes youreally think you're crazy.
And so then, when I finally hadsomeone say, no, you really did
experience these things and,yes, you have had spiritual
abuse it felt like that was aturn, that something was finally
validated and I could reallybegin the process of healing.

(27:28):
And then my husband and I couldfind healing because we were
having to grieve.
Ministry was not going to looklike what we thought it was on
there, and even now, as I speakon spiritual bypass and I speak
on spiritual abuse and I speakon my circumstances that led to
that, I think he and I now bothcan have some peace, like, okay,

(27:50):
this is your story to tell,this is you are going to help
people.
It's not me, I am.
There was a time I was bitter,there was a time I was resentful
and I was there for a long timeBecause, again, I didn't know
how to heal from that.
Right, I think too, because Iwas still in the environment and
still around those people, ittook me longer to heal, but now

(28:12):
I'm able to do this from a placeof peace and a place of hope
and a place of resilience.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yes, yes.
Can you describe like theexperience or the circumstance
that was abusive and what itcould have looked like from a
healed place, with a leader orwhoever was responsible for the
abuse, like if they were reallywalking it out as Christians?

(28:40):
You know?
What was their behavior from anabuse standpoint?
Then what should have theirbehavior been if they were truly
, you know living what theybelieve?

Speaker 3 (28:51):
Yes, thank you for asking that question, because
that's so important.
One is from the abusivestandpoint it was.
I was ignored.
I was told I was the problem.
I wasn't.
When I went with a question itwas usually an eye roll of like
here she goes again.
So there was no validation fromthat.

(29:12):
There was just no safety there.
I knew I could not go to theonly people again in the church
world very seldom.
Now some churches may have that.
I can't speak to every church.
They don't have an HRdepartment.
You can't go to the HRdepartment and complain about a
situation.
You're going to the very peoplewho are hurting you and you're
hoping they're going to receivewhatever situation.
You're going to the very peoplewho are hurting you and you're
hoping they're going to receivewhatever it is you're saying.

(29:34):
In my case they did not and soit was denied, it was pushed
aside, it was ignored.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
So I mean it sounds like they were like better than
you, or judgmental of you or youknow, coming across as if you
didn't have a right, maybe, tohave a voice or to be there
among them.

Speaker 3 (30:00):
I would definitely say that my voice was not heard.
It's just kind of like we don'thave time for that.
That's what I felt like oftenwe don't have time for that, and
we got things to do and peopleto see, and these people offer
more and you don't.
I mean that's what it kind offelt like, because their voice
was often heard, mine was not.
And so actually, um, after anincident that had occurred, once

(30:22):
I left the church, um broughtus to a conversation.
The pastor reached out and saidhey, come in and talk to us,
let's find out what's going on.
And so I tried and some washeard, and then it was turned
back on me.
That conversation today, as ahealed person, would have looked

(30:43):
completely different from myend, for sure, but when you are
working with religious personsand you have that experience,
number one validation they wouldhave validated my experience as
a healed individual and ahealed culture, because often
culture is from the top down,and so in a healed culture, they

(31:04):
would have said hey, let's talkthrough that, let's get
together, let's find out what wecan do.
How can we work together tomake this environment best for
everyone?
Additionally, when there's aconversation with a hurt person
who has seen that be like okay,let's talk through this.
If there's apologies necessary,there will be apologies, but we

(31:26):
don't turn it around on anyone.
We own our mistakes and we'reable to say well, I will learn
from that and I will workthrough that.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
That is not what yes or sorry that I hurt you.
That was totally not theintention at all.
Anything, I don't know that.
I'm trying to just give livedexamples that people can relate
to because I think, just as yousaid before, holding space for

(32:03):
somebody to hear you know,because it's easy, could be a
personality thing and not a uh,not a segregation thing, not a
not anything intentional right,just completely unaware, and
that could all be gettingmisread and misunderstood.
And now we're reacting toassumptions that we're making
and and boy, it just can spiralquickly yes, and in my instance

(32:28):
it.

Speaker 3 (32:29):
Yes, I was the odd man out, but it was also the
fact that there were verycognizant decisions from three
of the women to leave me out,and that's never Right, right.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Never, no.
And so you're saying thatwasn't dealt with from a
ministry perspective?
The pastor or whomever that wasover those women did not
address, it, did not deal withit.

Speaker 3 (32:55):
That was the issue, rather than hey, why don't we
work together to make this thebest environment for everyone?
How can we do that?

Speaker 2 (33:04):
Okay, or figure out why it's happening in the first
place.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
Yes.
So a lot of that was in play.
Some of those people I've beenable to heal with and we have at
least been able to be aroundeach other, some still not.
And that's just life, and youdon't realize how small a city
is and you have something likethis and you run into them

(33:30):
everywhere you go right, um, forthat.
As far as the second environmentthat I was in, where it was a
business, it was a christiancounseling firm and it was a
business, um, going to theindividual again, I'm going to
the abuser, um, and I am toldthat, um, there must be

(33:52):
something like I shouldn't beasking these questions, this is
from an unhealthy place.
And this is what happened Ishouldn't be asking questions.
Yet I'm told I can askquestions.
A lot of gaslighting, a lot ofmaking you feel like you're the
issue Myself.
And what's been interesting isit wasn't just me, myself and
my-worker that started thebusiness had the same experience

(34:12):
, so at least there hadvalidation.
I knew it wasn't just me.
Like, I am hearing these thingsand I am seeing these things,
um, and when I was trying toapproach, I was laughed out.
I was told well, maybe, andbecause I do have a hearing
condition.
I wear hearing aids.
It was used as well.

(34:33):
You didn't hear me properly.
Those kind of things.
That's from an unhealthy place,from a healthy place.
That would have been.
Yeah, you know, I did ask youto that.
You could ask anything.
I'm sorry, I didn't putboundaries around that.
I would prefer not to discuss X,y and Z, right, right,
definitely not using someone'sweakness or disability against

(34:54):
them.
I think it's just you justdon't do that.
You can say, hey, you know, Irecognize where you're coming
from.
I think if I stated that, thatwasn't what I meant, here is
what I'm stating and then, okay,you're all on a clear page on
there.
You know, even if someone andwe know this right.
So, whether it's in the church,it's in a counseling place,

(35:17):
it's anywhere, someone can haveso much trauma and so much hurt
that you could breathe and theywould misinterpret that, and I
don't mean that disrespectfully.
I've been there.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
Right, and I don't mean that disrespectfully I've
been there.
We can still approach them withhumility and we can still
approach them with grace and beable to say how can we work
together then to have adifferent outcome?
General is able to beaccountable and able to have
conversations about differencesand sit with somebody and be
able to let someone have anopinion.
I may not always agree withsomeone, but I definitely will

(36:08):
honor their ability to have anopinion, and it's okay if we're
not on the same page.
We might have differentexperiences, but a really good
leader would be able to do that,hopefully, just to hear
somebody and draw them ininstead of I'm right, you're
wrong.

(36:28):
Yeah, and I don't think this isnot specific to just religion,
it just happens to be.
I personally believe because ithappens in relationships and
work environments and families,but when it is in a religious
culture, it seems like it's 10times more hurtful because it's

(36:55):
the God piece that people arethere for, and so they begin to
equate that.
You know well.
If this is I hear this all thetime if this is what God is like
, I don't want anything to dowith it.

Speaker 3 (37:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
And unfortunately that is not how God is at all.

Speaker 3 (37:13):
Chuck DeGroat wrote when narcissism comes to church,
and he has a towards the end ofthe book he's talking about how
he works with church.
Those planting churches andpeople often hire him.
He's both a he has a uniqueposition and that he's an MDiv,
so he has his background inreligion that's what often

(37:34):
pastors have as ambassadors ofdivinity and then he's also, I
believe, a doctor and apsychologist, so he would do
reports to state whether theindividual planting the church
was mentally, emotionally andspiritually healthy enough to do
so.
And one of the things I've justnever, boy.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
we need to do that, I think, with our pastoral ship,
because our humanity can get inthe way.
And boy, I wish there was aprotocol for that.
You know that everyone goinginto ministry would go through,
you know, like, like we had todo, becoming therapists, we had

(38:18):
to do.
I had to do 120 hours oftherapy, which I've always done
anyways, you know, before Icould even do my practice, I
think.
And so I wish that we had thatfor ministers, because it really
will show someone their blindspots.
But sorry to interrupt, goahead.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
And in fact, when I was doing research on the book
I'm writing, I contacted, I wantto say, like six of the top
seminaries and ask them if theyhad any um, what's the word?
I'm looking for Any way tocheck in on like a like a

(39:00):
screening.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
like a screening come up with assessment.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
Yeah, yes, a screening, and none of them did.

Speaker 2 (39:08):
Yeah, and so you might need to create that, perry
, an assessment.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:16):
It's just helpful for again, let's do some therapy,
let's find out our blind spots.
But with Chuck DeGroote, hegave this story in his book and
it was a gentleman who had a lotof difficulty and turmoil in
his church and because he loved,he recognized he was the

(39:36):
problem.
He was like but I don't knowhow to change this and the
authorities above him so anelder, elders or a board
contacted Chuck DeGroote andsaid hey, will you come in let's
see if we can figure out what'sgoing on.
They go through this process,the last step of the process,
which this is hard on anybody,but especially just leading up

(39:57):
to this and knowing the pastorwas going to have to do this.
And I remember in the book ChuckDucro turns to him and said are
you ready for this?
And he said I guess I'm ready,as I'm going to be.
He said this is going to be thequestion we're going to be.
You said this is going to bethe question we're going to ask
people that are coming in.
How do you experience me?
And that pastor had to sit witheach person of his staff and be

(40:19):
able to ask that question andsit through receiving that
answer.
That's hard for me to evenimagine.
But when we have that type ofaccountability, when we have
that type of vulnerability, wealso create a not only healthy
culture but a safe culture, nomatter what it is.

(40:40):
If it's a Christian counselingfirm, if it's a Christian school
, if it's anything like that, wehave that opportunity, but
unfortunately many people don'thave that.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
Right, and I want to pause real quick because the
reason I mean there's manyreasons why I wanted to do this
podcast particularly, but I justwant to say that when we're not
practicing these things in achurch culture, the enemy comes
to steal, kill and destroy.
I said that last podcast andthat's what we're guarding

(41:16):
against, because we havereceptive people coming into our
churches.
We have people that are thereto look for the Lord and find
out how do you do this thingcalled being a Christian, and so
the enemy is going to be justwaiting for one little mistake
to draw them away and it mightbe their only chance hopefully

(41:41):
not, because God will alwayspursue them.
But it's so important that weget this right because the enemy
is there to take advantage ofone little misstep, one little
hurt, you know, and of coursecongregation members have to be
aware of their adversary as well.
But you know, my heart reallygoes out to the people who are

(42:03):
sincere and they're just reallysincerely trying, and then
something happens, they getwounded and and that the
intimacy, the end.
The enemy is just anopportunist to pounce, to pounce
on the.
You know, one little open woundcan do so much damage to the

(42:27):
soul of a person.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
Yes, and I love that entry there of the opportunist
because he is, if he can see it,he will use it.
Um right, if we remember in thescripture, he, he was the
beautiful snake in the garden,he was all these.
I mean, he comes in ways wecan't even imagine and I have
never.
You know when I talk about alot of this Screwtape.

(42:50):
Letters by CS Lewis.
If you've not read that.
It's fabulous, but it is so.
You know, cs Lewis was so wisewhen he wrote that and just
seeing these subtleties of howthe enemy comes in and can
dampen our souls and take thosewounds and rip them open.
There's also that saying of adeath by a thousand paper cuts.

(43:16):
I mean it only takes that oneslight, another slight, another
slight.
Next thing you know we'rebleeding all over the place and
if the church, if the religiousleaders in any organization are
not able to receive that andhear that, then we have a
culture we have to really lookat and go.

(43:36):
What are we doing If we're, ifwe are here, the churches for
the?
You know, jesus calls us thesick because we are sick with
sin.
We, you know this needs to be aplace where the sick feel
welcome, where the sick knowthey will be restored.
And when we go expectingrestoration and we get hurt,

(43:57):
that makes us a little leery togo to the next place or the next
place, or the next place.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
Right, and so the opportunity for religious abuse
to occur is when people staysilent and they don't address it
right.
I mean, there's lots of places,that's not the only one but if
someone is feeling hurt, theyneed to go to their pastor or
leadership someone if it feelssafe to do so.

(44:24):
But talk about it so that itdoesn't just boil up and see if
you can get to the bottom of it.

Speaker 3 (44:31):
You've said a key thing there and I want to make
sure every listener hears that,as long as you are safe to do so
, If you have tried this.
It has not worked.
You have felt berated, you havefelt belittled and all of those
things.
Then you don't.
Then I think you have to make achoice of either leaving and
choosing another church orreally just seeking God's wisdom

(44:53):
and guidance on that Right.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
Yeah, and I think so many people do not trust
themselves to hear God's voicein their own life.
They're just so used tofollowing a leader which you
know.
Paul said follow me as I followChrist, and I think they're
there for that reason.
But also, god is our shepherd.
The Bible says the Lord is myshepherd and he is speaking.

(45:19):
And he is talking and he isguiding.
And so if there is ever a checkin your spirit and your heart,
don't just ignore that andminimize it.
Take it to the Lord in prayerand take it to someone that you
do feel safe with to getperspective, because maybe it is
a bad day, maybe it is really abigger problem than what it

(45:42):
felt like.
So can you talk?
I know I'm going off script alittle bit.
So can you talk?
I know I'm going off script alittle bit.
Can you talk about the coercion?
You know, as a therapist, thereis a lot of narcissists in the
church world and I totallybelieve that I interviewed one

(46:07):
person a long time ago who hadsaid to me that they really
liked being on stage and theyreally liked being on stage and
they really liked how they feltafter they preached a message

(46:27):
and there were some other thingsthat I can't go into, but I
just I thought that that wasprobably not the right reasons
for wanting to pastor, you know.
But I was wondering if youcould talk about what narcissism
could look like from a pastoralstandpoint or someone that is

(46:48):
in leadership, and how thatcould look covertly and overtly,
using, I know, the wordcoercion.
I don't know that averagepeople that's not from a
therapeutic background wouldunderstand coercion.
But if you want to maybe breakdown coercion, manipulation and

(47:08):
I think censorship is huge, I'mglad you said that but maybe
just sort of give us a pictureof what that could look like
from a narcissistic leader.
So you know, and again, chuckDeGroote used this terminology
called faux neuro ability ummany foe, as in fake neuro, as

(47:33):
in mind ability, so they can saya good word and make you feel
something right yes, yes, andthey can present them on their
own selves as very vulnerable,because, we've got to remember,
vulnerability demandsvulnerability.

Speaker 3 (47:48):
So if I pretend that I'm vulnerable, you'll be
vulnerable, but then I'm likethis is where narcissism comes
in is I'm going to take what yougive me and your vulnerability
and I'm going to use it againstyou, against you, yes, so that
is your coercion, that is yourmanipulation, for sure.
Now, those who are overtnarcissists, you're going to

(48:08):
spot it.
Something is going to.
They're going to be the onesthat feel as though I am the
leader here and everything I saygoes, and I'm not really
worried about what you thinkabout me, it's very.

Speaker 2 (48:20):
but there there are denominations, there are church
cultures that believe that thereare.

Speaker 3 (48:29):
There are.
So they promote the narcissismand notice that if we go back to
scripture, when Peter isreinstated, jesus doesn't say,
peter, I will put you up here.
He said, on this rock I willbuild my church.
So let's know that man is notcalled to be the end, all be all

(48:51):
.
Jesus is on that.
But those who promote thatnarcissism, yes, and often
narcissists.
Let me rephrase that toxiccultures do not have
accountability.
If we think about Mars Hill, ifwe think about the sex abuse
scandals, if we think aboutthese different things, there

(49:12):
was no accountability.
That's how it went on for solong and so oftentimes, if a
someone in leadership role is anarcissist, they typically have
built around themselves peoplethat promote whatever it is the
leader is doing.
That's kind of your overt partof it, and so they have no

(49:34):
problem.
They think it's their right tomanipulate, to coerce, to
whatever.
They don't have a reason totell you.
I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
Because, and in a Christian setting, they
typically the term I hear a lotis they are the man of God,
meaning no one else is hearingGod but them, and and, and.
I think that that that's ascary thing, you know.

(50:02):
Um, the posture of that to meis a bit scary.
Um so, okay, I'll let you keepgoing.
Um so, coercion is gettingpeople to come along with them
from a place of power andinfluence, right, um, and
manipulation is preying uponsomeone's weakness in order to

(50:25):
get them compliant and thenCoercing them to do Right, right
.
Hand in hand, If you see one yousee another Right and coercion
I'm just going to.
There's a term called fog.
Coercion can be used throughfear, obligation and guilt, so a

(50:46):
lot of this stuff works.
If you're fearful, oh, if Idon't do this I'm going to go to
hell, or um, oh, what are theygoing to think of me?
I won't.
You know, excommunication issomething some organizations do,
um, which is really hard.
Um, what else was I going tosay?
So, you know, the guilt is gosh.

(51:08):
I really want to be a goodChristian, so I might as well, I
might as well just submit, Imight as well just oblige.
And all of that is good whenyou have the gifts of the spirit
, when there's peace there, whenthere is joy there, when there
is humility there, when there islove.

(51:29):
And I think all of this, Ithink our entire spiritual walk
with God, has got to be mirroredagainst the fruit of the spirit
, because that, that really isthe map.
Like, if, the, if the Biblegave us what the fruit is.
That's what we should belooking for.
Are they bearing fruit?

(51:50):
Is this peaceable?
Is this loving?
Is this God's goodness andcensorship, how does that look?

Speaker 3 (52:00):
Yes, back to also covert.
How does that look?
Yes, back to also covert,covert narcissism is they

(52:22):
definitely use a lot of thevulnerability, in which they
will use the vulnerability togain commitment, to gain
notoriety, to be seen as he's sohumble or she is so humble.
Um, when in actuality, they usethat to again the enemy is good
at what he does and he's goingto bring in people that he knows
he can use their fear againstthem, use their obligation and
their guilt against them and Isay he is a general term, but it
can be he or she.
So censorship is when a pastoror a leadership, anyone in a

(52:50):
leadership role has said youknow, if you really love God,
you won't tell anyone about thisBecause you wouldn't want to
see God's church hurt, god'schurch hurt.
Or you know, this is so specialbetween me and you that we
really we don't want otherpeople to know about it because

(53:12):
this is so holy between me andyou.
That is the form of censorship.
But notice, it's coercion, it'smanipulation and it's
censorship.
We often see this with peoplewho've been sexually abused by
some religious role and it'scontinued for years.
Why?
Because of censorship, right,Don't tell anyone.
And I would even say smallpersonal opinion.
I haven't found any research onthis.

(53:32):
When churches or religiousorganizations, anyone, requires
you to sign an NDA which is donot disclose, right, censorship.
Right to sign an NDA which isdo not disclose, that's
censorship.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
Right, 100%, 100%.
And I mean I don't see wherethere is any room for that in
church unless you're sitting onthe board of directors and it's
just business kind of stuff.
But then there's accountabilitythere on a board with other
people, yeah, and I thinkcensorship could take place in

(54:09):
lots of, lots of ways where it'sjust the conversation is
controlled, especially I won't,I won't name the denominations,
but there are some where whenthey do encourage
excommunication of familymembers, they're not even
allowed to talk to them, they'renot even allowed to be around

(54:29):
them.
And I think also what is usedis to not be unequally yoked,
which I totally believe in thatscripture.
But I think that can be used inthe wrong way in censorship as
well.
And so I go ahead.
I was just going to say Ibelieve if someone is really has

(54:51):
a prayer life reading theirBible, that the Lord will
quicken in their spirit.
Something's not right here.
This does not feel good to me,you know, and pay attention to
that, because that's, that'sthere for a reason.

Speaker 3 (55:07):
And some of the research that I did, just as the
background for my dissertation.
Um didn't even know it was outthere until I was doing the
research.
There is research on um,domestic violence, and how
scripture um and is oftenmisused and used as a form of

(55:28):
censorship against the woman.
And men can be sexually abusedas well.
Just the research I did wereprimarily women that were seen
on that, but how that can beused as a form of censorship
because, again, wives submit toyour husbands.
So you have no voice here.
I'm telling you this is whatwe're going to do and if you

(55:50):
don't, you know the consequence.
So oftentimes, coming out ofthat, they struggle again with
some of that.
So this is not like I said.
It's not just in religiousorganizations, it's not just in
a church, it's not just in aschool, it can be across the
board.
I love what you said earlierabout having a check in your
spirit If it doesn't feel right.
We need to listen to that voiceinside of us that says that

(56:11):
doesn't feel right.
Often and I would say it in myown story was true because I had
been in it for so long thatvoice was so dulled that it
wasn't until I really startedgetting healing, I could hear
that voice again.
Um, due to my own trauma, dueto the trauma I was in and those
kinds of things.
So definitely it is.
I am not blaming anyone, anyvictim of this, but I am saying

(56:35):
sometimes it's just hard to hearthat voice and as we heal we
can hear that a little bitbetter.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
Right, right, and yes , and I think you know I wanted
to talk about too, like thenormal, there's going to be
times this has happened to menumerous times we'll have people
come in church.
You know, throughout my lifeI've sat in different services,

(57:00):
I've sat under differentpreachers, I've sat under
different evangelists, whomeverit might be, and there are
checks in my spirit, you know,and I will have to go home and I
will pray about that Now.
With that said, that doesn'talways mean that what they said

(57:22):
was wrong, or it doesn't alwaysmean that what they said was
faulty.
Sometimes it is just me needingto work through my own biases,
my own woundedness, my ownsorting through if this is

(57:43):
actually conviction or if thereis a spirit of condemnation
trying to come against me,because all of those can take
place too.
Right, it's not that we're justraising our hand and saying, oh,
you know, I'm a victim of abuse, because this doesn't feel good
to me, you know.
So, with that in mind, how doessomebody kind of determine the

(58:06):
difference between normal upsand downs in a church culture
versus how are they going toknow?
Okay, this feels like abuse, orI need to look at myself first
and figure out what's going onwith me before I turn around and
say it's their fault, becausethat line can get super blurry

(58:30):
and maybe very narrow to wherewe don't always know that.
So how would you help someonedifferentiate between what's
normal ups and downs in churchversus a religious culture where
there is abuse going on?

Speaker 3 (58:47):
So I definitely think , understanding you know, being
able to identify what abuse isright, so you know is it is what
you're experiencing, comingfrom someone in authority, and
it's continual, like you keepfeeling, you keep feeling that
and that hasn't changed.
I would also say you know whatcontext is this being done?

(59:09):
In?
Where are you feeling thatthose kinds of things?
Does it fall under coercion,manipulation and those sorts of
things?
So you're looking at thetotality of abuse and what it is
and understanding that, okay, Iam seeing red flags and I need
to step back and go.
Is this a red flag?
And how can?

(59:30):
Is number one?
Is this leader approachable tobe able to?

Speaker 2 (59:37):
I love that.
I love that Because if there ishumility there, that's a fruit
of the spirit.
I love that because if there ishumility there, that's a fruit
of the Spirit, and so it couldbe likely that it is not actual
abuse, because there is awillingness there.

Speaker 3 (59:51):
Go on Something, whatever it is.
I can you know from my ownexperience what I had to do is
because I did find myself oftengoing into a church and I would
pick apart everything because ofmy own woundedness, like he
shouldn't have said that, and ohmy gosh, I can't believe you
said that and it would just goon and on.
I would drive myself crazy beingin a service and I was like I

(01:00:15):
can't keep doing this.
I knew that was my woundednesscoming up, and so I also have to
.
This is where, as as atherapist, I guess it's a
blessing and a curse, because Iknew what I was doing inside of
myself.
So, right, right, negativestatements were playing in my
head I'm no good, I can't dothis.
Um, I feel rejected, I don'tfeel worthy enough.

(01:00:38):
But none of that's true.
So I knew enough of that to beable to catch that negative
thinking and go, stop, stop.
Is that really what's beingsaid here right now?
And so, taking that step back,rather than react immediately, I
would go back and go.
I'm a believer of a holisticlook itself.
So what is my body experiencing?

(01:00:58):
My body is often the firstindicator that something is
going on within me.
So my heart may raise.
The first time I went back tochurch, I remember my stomach at
knots.
My heart was racing.
I was already looking for theexit as soon as I entered
because I'm like I ain't doingthis, like nobody had said
anything, the church hadn't doneanything.
That's not abuse, that is mywoundedness, and it was my first

(01:01:22):
time after healing, and sothat's going to be a natural
response to a situation on there, right?
Sure, yeah, what is my bodyexperience?
The next question I'm going toask myself is what is my heart
feeling?
Am I feeling nervous?
Am I feeling scared, worried,frustrated, overwhelmed, lonely?
What is it that is going oninside my heart?
So, if someone doesn't have agood what I call a feelings

(01:01:45):
language, I really encourage afeelings wheel.
That's out there.
There are different emotions,but talk that through, really
identify what that is for you.
And then the last question waswhat is my brain thinking?
You know, I'm not safe.
I can't handle this, and for meit was a lot of safety piece of
that Like I would walk intosomewhere, anywhere that I

(01:02:06):
thought religious people wouldbe and I wouldn't feel safe.
Nobody had done anything to mein that space, and it's just
because I'd gone into there.
This was new for me and I'm likedo I even want to be vulnerable
enough to even have thatopportunity?
God has worked through me andall of that and helped me to
register that.
But I think that's one thing wehave to look at, that we own.

(01:02:28):
The second thing is and Ibelieve God does this for us
throughout the Psalms, I believeDavid lays this out is naming
our soul wounds.
We have to know where we'rewounded.
Some of our soul wounds werenot committed by church.
Some of our soul wounds beganway back in childhood and

(01:02:48):
sometimes I have to sit back andgo.
That really isn't that person'sfault.
I know what that soul wound is.
That's a soul wound ofabandonment of rejection, and I
have to sit with that, I have togrieve that, I have to work
through that.
Now, if I truly believe thatsomething has happened, that
person said something, thatperson did something, I too.
We talk about the humility ofthe pastor.

(01:03:09):
I too have to be humble enoughto recognize my own things that
I need to work through, and thenI can go to the person that may
or may not have hurt me and wecan work through that together.
But if I go in and I say I'mnot the problem, you are, I'm
repeating a cycle that has beendone to me.

Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
Right A hundred percent.
And I think, with a backsliderwho is trying to come back,
walking through the door of achurch after being gone and all
of the automatic thoughts offeeling judged or feeling like
you know, everyone's going tojust give you so much attention
because you're here, that isuncomfortable as well.

(01:03:51):
You know there are so manythings that they have to walk
themselves through.
I love what you said about theholistic view of self, because a
person is going to feel it intheir body, in their emotions
and in their thoughts and forbacksliders particularly, the
hardest thing for them to do isgrace the doors of a church

(01:04:14):
again after so long of beinggone.
But just know, if you are abackslider listening to this,
there is a lot of us in thechurch now who have come back
and understand what that feelslike and had to do it.
I definitely had to do itmyself and before I ever went

(01:04:35):
back to my church of originprobably about five years before
I went back, every time I wouldsee someone that I would
recognize as part of my assemblyor something.
The Lord would point out to mehow I was judging them and he
would convict me.
You're judging them and yet youexpect them not to judge you at

(01:04:58):
all, and so if I wasn't evenable to look at someone in love
without judgment, how can Iexpect anybody to look at me in
love without judgment?

Speaker 3 (01:05:18):
And so I had to really work through that within
myself is that remember, whetherit be the church or
personalization across the board, it's humans, right?
Yes, we are fallible.
I am fallible.
I will hurt someone.
I pray for intentionally, butI'm going to hurt someone.

(01:05:41):
I need to remember that I'mgoing to do what I want others
to do for me.
Um, you know, do not expect ofothers what you're not willing
to do yourself.
So if you're going to expectthem to give you grace, guess
what?
We're going to have to givesome to you.
Um, and so, being able to reallygo into a place of like, I'm

(01:06:03):
going to give the opportunity tosee if I can share this with
whoever that leader is, and ifthey're a safe person.
If they show me they're notokay, then I have tried, I've
done my part by trying to go tothem and then I've learned from
that.
But I think we have to rememberthat we're, at the end of the
day, we're all human beings whoare fallible.

(01:06:26):
We are all people who are goingto do something wrong, because
that's humanity on there.
It doesn't mean that we're lessthan it doesn't mean that we're
not good enough, that we're notworthy or valuable, because god
said while we were stillsinners.
He died for us.
Um, he calls us valuable andwe're a royal priesthood of
people belonging to God, but wealso have to remember that we

(01:06:48):
are human.
Yeah, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):
So we have to get our own healing, you know, along
the way.
So I think I hope for theaudience that we've painted a
clear enough picture.
I think there's a lot of caseswe could actually talk about
where spiritual abuse has, has,um, been concerned and and

(01:07:15):
perhaps we will do that atanother time um, but right now I
just wanted to broach thesubject of what spiritual abuse
is and spiritual narcissism inthe church and give people a
really good definition,indication of what that could be
.
But I want to ask the question,now that we know that, what do

(01:07:40):
you think the steps of healing?
So let's say there's someoneout there that said sadly, I
have seen this a few times wherethere was sexual abuse in the
church from ministry and that isa very, very difficult.

(01:08:02):
I mean, I think any abuse isdifficult, but that one is a
very common and very difficult.
What would you say the steps tohealing are for those who have
been, who have been judged, whohave been wounded, who have felt
like they did not findcommunity in their church when
they desperately wanted to, orwho has been alienated because

(01:08:26):
they didn't do this right, orthey're not doing this right and
they're being judged becausethey're not Christian enough or
not holy enough.
So what are the steps tohealing for that person so that
they can reconnect either totheir walk with God or reconnect
in a healthy way to communitywithin a church culture?

Speaker 3 (01:08:49):
Yes, so you know, definitely I've developed this
method of VALID acronym on there.
So one is the first step is tovalidate your experience.
Now, we can and I have a caveatto this and that we can
validate it for ourselves allday long but sometimes we feel

(01:09:10):
like I'm the only one validatingthis.
That's another hard part withspiritual abuse.
Two people can go to the samechurch and have two different
experiences and so go ahead,sorry.
And so what happens is when weturn to someone maybe that is,
you know, in our small group,and we've had an experience,
whatever it is, and they're likeI didn't hear that Well, then

(01:09:30):
we're like, okay, did I hearthat wrong?
Well, we could have heardcorrectly, we could have had
that experience.
We sometimes wind up denyingour experience because the other
person didn't have the sameexperience.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
Right, the other person didn't have the same
experience, right, and sovalidate means for someone to
just say this happened, I feltit, I experienced that and it
was real, and you have to beable to do that for yourself,
even if no one else.
If you know, I could be angryand I could be zero to 30

(01:10:02):
seconds punching the wall and Imay not know why I was angry and
just put a hole through thewall, but it doesn't negate the
fact that I had felt anger.
Now I probably need to figureout what's going on with me.
But to validate is to justreally say this was real for me,

(01:10:23):
you know, and no matter whatthe circumstances were, it was
real for me.
Yes, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:10:30):
The very first thing is, again, when we're feeling
that body, mind and heart andwe're feeling those things, we
want to give a voice to that,even if the voice is in a
journal or just out loud in ourthoughts, whatever it is, we
just you know.
For me, being able to say thishappened to me.
I was disrespected, I wassilenced, I was and I, you know

(01:10:52):
fill in the blank.
I needed to own that.
Now, part of the problem wasbecause I was so much in the
environment still and nobody wasvalidating it.
That's where I did need someoneto help me, someone outside of
myself, to be able to say no,this really did happen to you.
So if you feel like, look, I'vegiven validation to myself all

(01:11:15):
day long and telling myself, yes, you could believe this
happened to you, and I stillfeel like I'm crazy, making in
my head find a therapist againor a trusted person that you can
express this with and receivethe information that is healthy
enough for you that you areready to receive, that's a piece
of validation too.
The other thing is autonomybeing able to recognize myself

(01:11:38):
outside of others.
So when we're in spiritualabuse environments, our autonomy
is squashed Right, right, yes,recognize that.
No, I am my own person.
The.
I am a person that God hascreated to have my own
individual gifts and talents.
It is not necessarily meant tobe just like this person or

(01:12:01):
whatever this person is wantingme to be Right.
Right.
Recognizing you are your ownindividual self.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
And if you, because God, because God, you know the
Bible says that we are all onebody, but individual members.
We're not all going to be thehand, not the feet, not the.
You know we are all individuals.
But I love what you said and Ithink that goes back to identity
too.
Like we are valuable in theperson God made us to be and it

(01:12:30):
is with a purpose, for a purpose.
There is no accidents, and soautonomy is not I'm clarifying
this for the religious out there.
That's going to, you know, findholes in what we're saying.
But this is not that you'regoing to go to church and say
I'm going to be my ownindividual self and I'm not ever

(01:12:50):
going to fit in with the crowd.
It's not that at all.
It's just saying that I have myown unique way of thinking.
I have my own unique way of whoGod has made me to be.
And God, if we're submitted toGod and if we're submitted to
our pastor in a healthy way,then there should be grace for

(01:13:14):
all of that, for God to work allof those things out within
ourselves.
But we are working out our ownsalvation with fear and
trembling, knowing that one dayit's going to be me standing
before God, not anyone else, notmy mom, not my dad, not my
pastor, not my friends, me.
So that autonomy, I think, isso very important, because we

(01:13:40):
don't always get that validationin a church culture.
But at the end of the day, noone's going to save me but Jesus
, and I'm going to have toanswer for what I do.
And so it's very difficult tofind that balance of not just

(01:14:01):
asserting yourself as anindividual but yet being an
individual at the same exacttime.
It's like what you said theother day both things can be
true at the same time.

Speaker 3 (01:14:11):
Yes, absolutely.
The next thing is lamenting.
A lot of us had an idea of whatwe thought church was going to
be, what we thought ministry wasgoing to be, what we thought
fill in to be, what we thoughtfill in the blank family,
marriage and sometimes, I know,for me it was a lot of God.

(01:14:34):
I just, I know you called me toministry but I did not sign up
for this and I don't know how towork through this.
I'm mad, I'm angry.
You know how could this thing Ilonged for for so long end up
this way?
Right, it was a lot oflamenting, and you know that is
that it is beyond grief.
For those who don't know whatlamenting is, it is a true cry

(01:14:56):
of the soul, of our rawest partsof us that are uncensored.
Grief can be uncensored as well, but usually grief comes out of
that lamenting, of really beingable to say God, help me to
understand this, because I gotnothing on there.
And so I think that's one thingwe have to do too is to lament
what we hoped would be and togrieve what has been lost

(01:15:19):
through our spiritual abuseexperience.
I think also, identifying,recovering from spiritual abuse
will take time, and we have tofigure out what our own thoughts
and feelings are, and also whattrustworthiness is, what wisdom
is, what discernment is, and sobeing able to sit in that and

(01:15:42):
know that, to know that forourselves, in our autonomous
self, but also to know what thatis as the Lord defines it, not
just as society defines it orculture defines it, and so
really sitting in that to beable to identify that.
And then the last one is todevelop, developing spiritually

(01:16:04):
healthy habits.
A lot of times in spiritualabuse, the autonomy was taken
because, you know, there was ademand of loyalty, a demand of
commitment and submission thatdenied self totally, the
autonomous self.
Yes, we are to deny selfbecause we follow Christ, but
there is a difference betweenyou follow nothing else and no

(01:16:24):
one else but me as this man orwoman who reaches.
And so we have to go back towhat our spiritual is.
What is it to sit with the Lord?
What is it to study scripture,not in a spiritual bypass way,
not in a spiritual abuse way,but to truly hear from the Lord,
so to engage healthy spiritualhabits, really seeking God.

(01:16:47):
What spiritual habit would workfor me?
Because what works for you,kathy, and what works for me?
And knowing the Lord most maybe different things, because
we're two different people.
That doesn't make it wrong,that makes it different.
And so, as long as it'saligning with the word of God,
and know this, if what is beingasked of you is not following

(01:17:08):
scripture, is not following thecharacter of Christ, then it's
not healthy.
God is going to bring us to aplace where we can know him in
our raw selves and know him, theman who says come to me all who
are weary and I will give yourest.
And so being able to developthose spiritual habits that

(01:17:29):
allow us to know what rest is,to allow us to know what
conviction is not condemnation,to know what it is to walk in
the fruits of the Spirit, aswe've spoken through, without,
but that's the valid method thatcan help us.

Speaker 2 (01:17:50):
Oh, I love that, and I think what's so awesome about
that is like the first threecome out of what was done to you
.
The last two is takingresponsibility for yourself and
then being able to do your ownwork and instead of blaming,
instead of staying angry,instead of just cutting it off,
I'm done.
It is a call to really grow,identify the repercussions, and

(01:18:15):
I think you know, in my lifeit's taken years and I can see.
You know, growth is often atime span and so real, real,
true things happen, but God isin the middle of all.
Let me say this God can redeemit.
God, god can totally redeem itand restore.

(01:18:40):
But we then have to begin toidentify, like you said, how do
I get better with discernment?
How do I get better atunderstanding myself so that I'm
not so easily persuaded by avery charismatic what's the word

(01:19:00):
?
Persuasive person?
Right?
And so the last one developingspiritual, healthy habits.
I love that too, because it'saccountability back to like, yes
, this happened, but I'm notgoing to stay stuck here, I'm
not going to stay here, I'mgoing to go on with God, and so

(01:19:24):
I love that.
That's so awesome that youcoined that.
Yes, absolutely yeah.
So I know we have to wrap up.
You're on a time construct, andso am I.
I want to just finish with onelast question, again with the
backslider in mind someone thathas been wounded in the church,

(01:19:45):
not part of community anymorebecause they have been hurt or
they're angry or they have veryjustifiable reasons for blaming.
What would you say to thatperson to where they can maybe
try to take some steps back to arestorative process?

Speaker 3 (01:20:08):
The first thing I want to do is to validate.
I know we've talked about that,but I'm certainly sorry for the
experience.
No matter what it is, you werehurt and that hurt deserves to
be heard, and so for that I wantyou to know that I respect that
and I know that you may have towork through that hurt.

(01:20:31):
I think the next thing that canbe done is right now, wherever
you are, you may have very mucha distaste for anything
religious, for any religiousinstitution or thing.
Know that God's word hasn'tchanged in 2000 years.
It's not going to change today.

(01:20:51):
So if you can go to scripture,look at the Psalms, look at
Lamentations, know what it is tolament, know what it is to cry
out, god hears your every cryingand he draws the broken hearted
near to him, yes, amen.
So start there with that andjust begin to work within

(01:21:13):
yourself this relationship.
Just, you know, like God, Ican't handle much of you today,
but I can handle two minutesGreat, it was two minutes more
than you did yesterday and thenmaybe one day you can reach a
place where you can becomeinvolved again in community.
But it will take time, and alsogive yourself grace for the
time that it will take.

Speaker 2 (01:21:35):
Yeah, yeah, I love that, perry, that's so good and
I will definitely have you onagain.
There is much that we couldhave covered.
This is such an ongoingconversation, I think, but I'll
figure out how we can do itagain and maybe do some case
studies, case scenarios to wherewe can give some very real

(01:21:58):
examples and practicalapplication for those listening
examples and practicalapplication for those listening
right now.
I wanted to introduce theconcept because, as a former
backslider, um, and as knowingother backsliders, you know not
everything that happens to thebackslider and definitely no
abuse occurred in my life, um,but there was a lot of spiritual

(01:22:22):
bypassing that I did to myselfbecause it was what I known and
what I was taught, you know, andand all of us are just
endeavoring to do the best thatwe can, and so I just wanted to
start the conversation for thoseto let them know that we do
know this.
This does exist in churches andthere are, there are and has

(01:22:43):
been some really awful cases.
There's also a lot of good andyou know, if anybody could do,
what the Lord taught me to do isjust keep my eyes on him.
Then if I'm looking up, I'm notgoing to be, looking out.
I'm not going to be looking atwhat someone's doing, how
someone's looking at me, howsomeone's not talking to me, how

(01:23:04):
someone might be.
I'm going to be just looking atGod, and that can be very
helpful for someone who neverleft God but also doesn't want
to go back to church, you know.
So I will think on this moreand figure out how we can
further the conversation, but Ihope that it was helpful for any

(01:23:26):
who have listened and, um,again for someone watching.
Please reach out to us.
You can reach out to Perry.
Her website is parareadcom.
Um, and that's R E E D.
I will put it all in thedescription.
Um, and you can reach out to metoo.
Our website isTheRedeemedBacksliderorg.

(01:23:47):
Any last thoughts, perry,before we go?

Speaker 3 (01:23:52):
No, just know that.
I think the main thing is againremember people are human.
We got to.
God tells us, or David saysdon't put your faith in man, but
put your faith in the Lord.
He is the one that will sustainus.
So continue to seek wisdom fromGod and know that man's going

(01:24:12):
to hurt Hopefully notintentionally, but when it does
you do have someone who willcatch you, and that is the Lord.

Speaker 2 (01:24:20):
The Lord, yes, yes.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
I really appreciate it, and Godbless everyone.
Bye-bye.

Speaker 1 (01:24:30):
We are so glad you joined us.
If you have a story ofredemption or have worn the
label of a backslider, we wouldlove to hear from you.
If you'd like to support ourministry, your donation will be
tax deductible.
Visit our website attheredeemedbacksliderorg.
We hope you will tune in forour next episode.