When Innocence Is Stolen: TRB #19 Part 1 of 3

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What if your spiritual struggles have been confused with willpower or belief, but in reality, they stem from wounds inflicted long before you could understand them? In this groundbreaking first installment of a three-part series, Kathy Chastain and guest Kelly Ventura illuminate the powerful connection between childhood attachment trauma and our ability to trust God.

Every human is designed as a whole person—body, mind, emotions, and spirit—yet childhood experiences can fracture this unity, creating patterns that follow us into adulthood and spiritual life. Kelly, a licensed Pentecostal preacher with over 25 years of ministry experience, brings profound insight as he explains how the first five years of life establish templates for all future relationships—even our relationship with our Creator.

This episode offers hope beyond simple platitudes. When we understand that "your spirit is what becomes saved first, but your mind, emotions, and flesh need saving too," we gain compassion for ourselves and others who struggle. The healing journey involves recognizing intrusive thoughts as spiritual warfare rather than personal shortcomings, developing consistent spiritual practices, and intentionally choosing to see evidence of God's goodness.

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Redeem California, With God it IS Possible:

God of the Impossible: 30-Prayers for the Redemption and Restoration of California

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider with your
host, kathy Chastain.
Christian-based psychotherapistand Redeemed Backslider.
This podcast is dedicated tothose who have wandered but are
ready to return to thelife-changing power of grace and
the freedom found in Jesus.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider podcast.
I'm your host, kathy Chastain,and I am a Christian-based
psychotherapist and a redeemedbackslider.
Today we're going to dosomething a little bit different
with our podcast.
But before I begin I want togive a shout out to the studio
that I've been recording mypodcast in Bright House.

(00:45):
The two guys, michael andSteven, have been wonderful.
They got the studio togetherwith very little notice and just
opened the doors and let mecome in.
This has been very impromptu.
I just really felt to do it.
I called them up and we wereready to go within a week.

(01:06):
So today we're actuallyrecording episode nine or 19
rather, and they've just beenwonderful, so I wanted to shout
out to them.
Also, I wanted to tell youabout our website.
It's called theRedeemBackslidercom On.
That website gives you a littlebit more information about my
history but really talks abouthow you can be involved.

(01:32):
One of the things we are doingis we've created a prayer group,
so some of the backsliders thatwe've had on this podcast.
We meet every Sunday morningbefore church at 8 am and we
have created a list ofbacksliders.
It's so far six pages that weknow of just between our local
churches here, but what we'redoing is we're really looking

(01:56):
for the community out there tosend us a list of other
backsliders that you guys knowof, as well as anyone that wants
to join us and pray.
We're hoping that over thecourse of this, as we evolve,
that we'll get more people onboard that will carry the burden

(02:16):
to see people return to theLord, and with that, so visit
our websitetheredeemedbackslidercom, and
there's lots of information onthere, and with that, today's
episode is going to be a littlebit different.
I am not interviewing abackslider today, but rather a

(02:37):
colleague that works with me atmy practice, kelly Ventura.
Practice Kelly Ventura.
We are going to do a three-partseries on the whole person and
how attachment and trauma anddistrust and fear create the
perfect environment for someoneto backslide and to turn away

(03:02):
from God, and how God's originalplan of restoration through the
cross can bring everything backtogether.
I think that if you have anybackground of wounds whatsoever
which I think all of us do Ithink this might be very
interesting to you.
So with that, in the studiowith me today is my friend and

(03:23):
colleague, kelly Ventura.
Kelly is a licensed preacher.
He's a Pentecostal preacher inthe United Pentecostal Church
International.
He's been ordained for several,several years and has over 25
years of ministry, was on theevangelistic field for quite

(03:46):
some time, kelly.
I'll just have you give yourbackground for the listeners so
they can have a better idea ofwho you are.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
Absolutely yeah, I was on.
Well, I started as a youthpastor, actually did that for a
little bit and then began to getinvitations to go in other
places and so really probablystarted full-time I would say
probably late 90s, 99, 2000,right in that range.
And I remember the day I wasworking and actually working for

(04:17):
my father-in-law, and went intohis office and said, hey, I
feel like God's calling me to dothis and this is what I want to
do.
And it kind of sounds now likehe was trying to get rid of me.
But he actually just reachedacross the table and shook my
hand and said this is whatyou've been waiting for, go do
it.
Wow, what a blessing.
Yeah, so it was really cool.
So, yeah, so started early 2000s, probably traveled for

(04:39):
full-time gosh, 15 years maybe,kind of just, you know, kind of
like in that area there.
But yeah, so travel full timewith my wife and daughter.
My daughter began to call thebackseat of our truck because we
had a truck and a fifth wheel.
At one point she began to callthe backseat of the truck her

(05:00):
room.
So yeah, we traveled for a longtime preaching and, uh, once my
daughter got older we kind ofsettled down more uh here
locally, back home in visalia.
So yeah, that's kind of uh,kind of, in a nutshell, that's
kind of uh what, uh, what I'vebeen up to and and your passion
has been also acting and youhave traveled with the.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
Uh, what was the name of the drama team from the
organization?

Speaker 3 (05:25):
Yeah, we did so.
The United, the UPC, so it hassplit up in different districts,
right.
So the Western district at thattime was all of California.
So we traveled all overCalifornia.
We brought together youth fromages I think we started at like
15 to 18, kind of that range andbrought youth together from all

(05:49):
over.
I just bumped the mic, so sorryabout that, but we brought
youth together from all over thestate and we rehearsed and did
a drama called the WesternDistrict Drama Tour.
We would do one production goall throughout the state.
It was a very, very cool thing,uh, and was able to kind of I
was able to kind of bring in myuh, uh, acting experience from

(06:13):
high school and college and allthat good kind of stuff, um, and
kind of direct it into, uh,into church and ministry, and
that was kind of a way that Godkind of showed me.
It was kind of like hey, youknow, yeah, you have this
ability, uh, but I can also usethat ability as well, uh.
So it was very, very cool, um.
And so, yeah, we did that forabout seven years.

(06:35):
Uh, my daughter traveled withme.
She was very, very young.
She traveled with us, uh, Iremember vivid memories of her
on church pews watching us setup and all that kind of stuff,
so yeah, so that was very cool,that was fun.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, and so for the last few years you've been more
local.
You still go out and preachdifferent places and you still
do your one man drama, which Ithink is on Paul right.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
The most recent one I'm doing is on Paul.
Yeah, it's the book of 2Timothy, so it's the last words
of Paul, is what I call it kindof a title, if you will, but
anyway.
So 2 Timothy was thought anywayto be the last word before Paul
was executed.
So that's kind of like to methat's kind of always been kind
of like his last words to, notonly to Timothy, it's kind of

(07:24):
always been kind of like hislast words to, you know, not
only to Timothy, but to thechurch, uh, as well.
And if you actually readthrough second Timothy, it's
kind of cool because he'sbringing in all these sort of
disparate ideas and kind ofputting them in one bag and
saying, here you go, um, butit's very, very cool.

Speaker 2 (07:41):
So yeah, that's kind of what my latest kind of
one-man drama is is the lastwords of Paul.
And in addition to yourministry stuff, a while back I
don't even know how long it'sbeen now you really became
interested in counseling andcoaching Right, and so you've

(08:02):
had a variety of working with me.
Our practice is CaliforniaChristian Counseling and
coaching Right.
Um, and so you've had a varietyworking with me.
Um, our practices CaliforniaChristian counseling.
Uh, so works, has an officethere.
But but you're you reallydeveloped a passion for that.
Can you talk about where thatcame from and what led you to
that?

Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, I've always, um , enjoyed cause I'm naturally uh
, although you probably can'ttell it right now I'm naturally
a very quiet person, kind of I'min my head a lot.
You're an introvert, yes.
So I always find myself talkingwith pastors or other people or
ministry leaders or what haveyou, and really listening and

(08:45):
kind of just kind of that's mypart of the conversation, and
then, at kind of the end of theconversation, someone going so
what do you think?
And then being able to kind ofgo well, here's my perspective,
here's my take, and always beenkind of interested in that On
the evangelistic field.
Sometimes, you know, you get tobe friends with pastors and

(09:05):
ministry leaders and people andjust reaching out.
So I think for me, counselinghas kind of been kind of an
outreach of that, just a naturalbyproduct, yeah, and being able
to talk with people,individuals, couples.
We all go through things andwhat my passion and my desire
has been has been going okay,what have I?

(09:27):
How have I messed up?
You know.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
Right right.

Speaker 3 (09:31):
And then what can I take from that and give to
someone else and go?
Okay, because there's always, Iknow, a good pastor friend of
mine, brother Granquist.
Pastor Granquist used to alwayssay he goes.
You know what, kelly, there'stwo ways to learn things.
You can learn by watchingsomeone or you can learn by
going through it.
He goes, it's a whole loteasier to watch from somebody

(09:53):
else's experience.
And so I always thought, okay,well, if I can do that and I can
go, okay, here's what I did,here's what I did wrong, and
then here's what you can do toavoid this.
I think it's always beensomething for me is kind of like
a cool thing to be able to drawfrom.
You know, like like Samson,drawing honey, you know, from
the from the lion, yeah, fromthe carcass of the lion, right,

(10:16):
Drawing honey from that andgoing, ok, here's the thing that
I conquered and I'm going tobless somebody else with.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
So that's kind of been my my take, kind of my
thought behind it is this iswhat I want to do, and so
working with people because youwork with people that is not
just from our church, I mean,you're working with anybody that
calls outside of church how hasthat been for you?
How have you enjoyed that?

Speaker 3 (10:41):
Good Because, well know, at the end of the day,
whether you're, you know whetheryou go to a church, you attend
a church or you don't.
I think at the end of the dayyou know.
To quote a famous song from theeighties people are people,
right.
I was just thinking that peopleare just people, yeah, and so
the best mode, Yep, and so um,when, um, when you realize that

(11:12):
it's kind of like, okay, whetheryou're coming from a church and
the type of people that comeinto my office are usually one
of probably three types.
But one is you know, I'm in alarge church and maybe
disconnected and don't have thatoutlet to talk with someone,
which is sometimes a symptom ofa large church Right, or I'm in
between churches.
You know, I had a church, butmaybe now I'm attending a
different church and maybethere's still that disconnect.
Or maybe I've been burned outon church right, or never

(11:34):
attended, you know and I, but Iwant still that kind of
spiritual voice in my life, youknow, and so that's kind of what
I mean by people are people.
It's kind of like we all are insome kind of stage of that,
even if we're in church and weare thriving and everything's
going great and we do have thoseresources.

(11:55):
Sometimes it's kind of likewell, I want to talk to somebody
that doesn't know me, you knowthat can, can speak into my, uh,
into my life, or speak to me,or we can, uh, have a, have a
session, so that's somethingthat that I I enjoy a lot.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yeah, yeah, and that that's the beauty of counseling,
I think, is that a counselor isvery neutral, right?
There's no emotional buy-inthere, so they have a different
perspective because they don't,they're not connected, so it's
easier for them to see, maybe,what you can't see as you're
going through things.

(12:31):
Right, and I'm not building acase for therapy, but, but it's
so interconnected and we'll see.
So we so thank you for thatbackground of your little resume
.
We're going to be starting athree-part series on the whole
person, which I just said, andso today is part one, and we're

(12:52):
going to be talking about God'soriginal design and when
innocence is stolen from us aschildren and how that affects
attachment, and you guys willsee as we go along how all of
this is very interconnected.
But I think what you just saidis a great segue into discussing

(13:12):
the whole person, becausepeople are just people, but we
are all made up of body, mind,soul and spirit, right?
So you want to elaborate onthat?

Speaker 3 (13:24):
Yeah, absolutely so.
You know, we were designedoriginally created for those.
You know, I've always preachedand taught my whole life.
It's body, soul, spirit, butthere's actually we can kind of
call out another Aspect of thattoo.
So it's the flesh, it's ouremotions, right?
Which we would always talk aboutas the heart, right, right, our
mind and right and our spirit.

(13:49):
So the flesh is that physicalaspect of a person, our biology,
our health.
1 Corinthians 16, 19 talksabout that.
Our emotions is one thing, andI think sometimes in church we
really kind of downplay a littlebit sometimes because it's kind
of like maybe we don'tunderstand emotions.

(14:13):
I mean, church is emotional initself, in our worship.
But sometimes having emotionssometimes is thought of maybe as
a negative thing In somedenominations.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
Right, right, yeah, exactly, but it's really the
maybe as a negative thing Insome denominations Right, right,
yeah exactly, but it's reallythe seed of our feelings.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
I often tell people you know, hey, your emotions are
kind of like that dashindicator on your dashboard of
your car that says, you know,hey, check the engine, there's
something going on underneaththat we need to look at.
So emotions like, you know,anger and all that kind of good
stuff well, good stuff, allthose, all those kinds of
emotions, right, uh, are thingsthat are underlying saying, hey,
we need to check some thingsout, we need to look at, look at
some things that are kind ofgoing on underneath.

(14:54):
Uh, our mind is probably one ofthose things that, if we can
get a victory in our minds, um,it's one of those things that
it's an ongoing battle, it's anongoing process, it's an ongoing
struggle, if you want to callit that.
But we are constantly bombardedby all kinds of struggles in

(15:21):
our mind and usually I find alot of times, you know, talking
with people is that, um, thestruggles that happen in the
mind usually result fromsomething underneath, some, some
kind of belief that people haveabout themselves, uh, that say
you know, I'll pick one, youknow I am unlovable, Right, and
that kind of bubbles up into ourthought processes Sometimes.

(15:59):
Um, I'll sometimes talk with,with, with, with someone in my
office and we'll talk about.
You know, we're going to talkabout how you were raised, how
you were brought up, but we'regoing to talk about that so that
you can have a betterunderstanding or a lens of why
you do things now.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
Right, right, because when they say in therapy, you
have to go back to yourchildhood, right, there's a
reason we say that, right, youknow, because what happens in
our childhood is critical to howwe live out our adult years,
which we will talk about ingreater detail, right?
So I, I want to, I want topause for a minute and talk

(16:35):
about the flesh piece, um,because I think so.
This, this podcast, is reallyspecifically designed for
backsliders and for people whoare apart from the Lord, whether
they ever knew God in the firstplace but grew up in church and
just didn't really have arelationship, or whether they

(16:56):
left for whatever reason.
But our flesh is, you know,where addictions occur, occur
where our need to mask, um, youknow, we, we typically will mask
all of our hidden parts throughour flesh, right?
Whether, whatever, however wedress up our flesh, our temple,

(17:18):
right, um, our central nervoussystem also is a part of our
flesh, and so when people getinto behaviors that cause
avoiding, like um, particularlyemotions, right, people avoid
their emotions all the timethrough addiction, through, um,

(17:39):
any kind of instantgratification, whether that's
shopping, whether that's sex,whether that's um, whether
that's sex, whether that'seating, whether that's substance
use.
All of that often is aboutavoidance and so that our
central nervous system getstriggered through different

(18:00):
things that operate in our fleshrealm, things that operate in
our flesh realm.
And so when it comes to theLord, like we're probably going
to be all over becauseeverything is so interconnected.
But when it comes to the Lord,the spirit of God connects with
the spirit of man, our spiritright, and our spirit is what

(18:22):
becomes saved.
But then that has to do a workin our flesh Right and sometimes
that process is a little bitslower.
So when a person gets saved,their flesh has to get saved,
their mind has to get saved.
Everything goes with that theiremotions have to get saved and

(18:42):
their spirit has to get saved.
Right, their emotions have toget saved and their spirit has
to get saved.
And so, with that in mind,kelly, when a person comes to
church and surrenders their lifeto the Lord, the first thing
that gets saved is their spirit.
Right, right, right.

Speaker 3 (18:57):
God's spirit inhabits theirs, yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
Yeah, and then it's the walking out process that can
be super tricky.
So do you want to talk aboutany of that?

Speaker 3 (19:07):
No, and I think that when you were talking about one
of the things that kind of I wasthinking about when you said we
mask things, it's one of thethings when we come to God and
we do bring everything to him,one of the things that kind of—
we think we are Right, right,right Until we're faced with it
and it's harder.
And then later on, God says,well, let's read and let's go

(19:27):
through some prayer and let meshow you some other parts of
yourself.
Right, but when we come to himwe kind of do that masking.
When you said that, that kindof triggered in my head the
story of in the scripture, thestory of the man the Bible calls
it with the withered hand, orthe hand that was drawn up.
Right right Now the Bible man.

(19:51):
The bible calls with thewithered hand, or the hand that
was drawn up right right now.
The bible says one of thethings in my head now this is
the the preacher in me thinkingyou know, um in the bible it
says specifically not enoughcaffeine this morning, sorry
everybody.
Specifically it says that itwas his right hand.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
Um, and the bible.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
Yeah, the bible is specific to mention right versus
left, right versus left,because in the Bible right is
the hand of power, right is thehand of anointing blessing.
You know, the blessing wasgiven through the right hand,
all that good kind of stuff.
Um, so that's.
The Bible specifically mentionsthe right hand and when the man
shows up to church that day,jesus basically calls him out.
But when he calls him out hedoesn't say show me your right

(20:26):
hand.
He says to the man with thewithered hand he says show me
your hand.
So that mask could have come onand said here's my left hand
right, here's the good hand,here's the hand where
everything's okay.
But Jesus was like okay, I'mgoing to leave it to the man to
take the mask off and go.

(20:47):
Okay, here's the part of me thatis not okay.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
So with that example of that story, that's, I love
that.
So where does shame show up,like cause?
The man literally had a choiceright, right.
This is where free will comesin.
The man had a choice to showwhat was.
Everything is good on theoutside, right, right, to offer

(21:11):
his left versus a shame response.
We'd want to hide it.
We'd want to hide our um, ourvulnerability, our our um, the
parts of us.
That's not perfect, right, butthe man was willing to trust God
and show his right hand.
Kelly, that's so good I'venever thought about.

Speaker 3 (21:32):
Yeah, and I think the shame.
I think the shame come in whenyou're asking that.
I think the shame comes in,like you were saying in that
decision process.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
Right.

Speaker 3 (21:39):
Because it's kind of like okay, I kind of look at
shame as something that someoneelse gave to that person.
Somewhere along the line,somebody told that man it's
shameful, or something happenedwhere he took on shame and I
think that in that moment, whenhe made that decision to show

(22:01):
his right hand, he kind of madethat decision on some level
right to go okay, this shamethat I've been carrying doesn't
belong to me.
right, I'm gonna remove it hereand I'm gonna stretch forth my
right hand right right, uh, andI think that that's kind of um
where it came in and the laws ofthat time.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
They were very specific he wasn't supposed to
be there right, right, so therewas already this societal caste
system that, um, he was uncleanand couldn't be there, right,
okay, we're getting ahead ofourselves.
So, um, I want to go back tohow we are made as a whole
person, in our innocence.
When god sends us from heaveninto this world, he makes us

(22:46):
with a purpose and for a purpose.
One of my mentors has alwayssaid that you are born with a
purpose, for a purpose.
So we're made up of the flesh,which God designed as the temple
that he indwells.
Our emotions, the seed of ourfeelings joy, grief, fear, anger
and emotions are designed tosignal what's good, what's bad,

(23:14):
and they are meant to beacknowledged and regulated.
And in that I think that's ahuge place.
Where people go awry, they'llcome back to the Lord, or even
for Christians that arecurrently living in church and
pursuing the Lord, it istypically the emotions and the

(23:35):
dysregulation of that fear,shame, all of those things that
inhibit a person's ability to bevictorious in the Lord.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
Right, right, absolutely, absolutely.
I think that when we bring that, it's, it's all like, like you
were saying, it's all of thosethings that pull us back and
constantly pull us in and andget us back not get us, but pull
us back to where we were before.
And it's that constant push andpull, uh, that we find
ourselves in, and but it's, it's, it's it's when we constantly

(24:12):
show up Right and go OK, I'mstruggling here, it's kind of
going back and forth, but I'mgoing to show up again.
I'm going to show up in frontof his presence again.
I'm going to go to church again, I'm going to go to counseling
again.
I'm going to go to church again.
I'm going to go to counselingagain.
I'm going to go, and that'skind of where we kind of go.
Okay, in spite of kind of allthis struggle that's happening
here, I'm still going to show upand I'm still going to move

(24:34):
forward.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
Right, and we'll find that that's not always easy for
a person to do right Because ofwhatever wounds, wounds that
have been afflicted on them as akid.
And so the mind is the realm ofour thoughts, beliefs,
reasoning and identity.
So this is probably the primaryplace that the enemy shows up.

(24:58):
So, in a therapeutic sense, wehave intrusive thoughts and
automatic thoughts.
So you want to talk aboutintrusive thoughts and automatic
thoughts.

Speaker 3 (25:13):
Sure, automatic thoughts are kind of those
thoughts that we find ourselveskind of going back to in certain
situations, you know, in avariety of different situations,
right, but it's always thatsame thought, so a friend's
Probably not even conscious,right.
And it's happened so much sincewe were little humans, right?

Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:34):
It's happened so much and so often.
There's kind of that pathwaythat's automatic, right, and you
know, sometimes it feels like Ididn't even think about it, but
that thought just came to myhead.
Well, there's been that pathwayfor so long, that's why it felt
like I didn't even think aboutit or I didn't even realize it.
But it's that one thought thatkeeps coming up.
So, for example, I'm unlovable.

(25:55):
That can lead us to think, well, if I'm perfect, then I'll be
lovable.
So it can lead us in certainsituations where it's like, okay
, our friend stood us up fordinner.
Well, it could be, a friend gotstuck in traffic, the friend
got sick.
We don't get a text or whatever.
And our first thought couldautomatically be well, I'm
cutting them off, I'm not goingto text them back, I'm going to
you know the mafia, they're deadto me.

(26:16):
But what's pushing that is,first of all, you're going to
find yourself without anyfriends.
Secondly, what's pushing thatis that thought of I am
unlovable.
Well, that means, you know, ifI'm unlovable, the reason they
stood me up for dinner isbecause they don't love me,
right, right, uh, so weautomatically go to that.

(26:36):
So there's those automatic,automatic thoughts that keep
coming up so intrusive thoughtshave always kind of intrigued me
.
What, what, what do you aboutthose?

Speaker 2 (26:44):
I think they come straight from hell, definitely,
but intrusive thoughts are theand I've had these, you know so.

Speaker 1 (26:53):
I think everyone does right.
We just don't.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
The problem with intrusive thoughts is, most
people, if you do not understandspiritual warfare, you will see
them as your own thoughts.
And so I've had littlefive-year-old kids tell me their
brain just tells them things.
But an intrusive thought is youknow you're driving down the
road and oh you should justdrive.

(27:17):
You know, drive your car overthis overpass, or drive your car
into this tree right here, youknow.
Or drive your car into thistree right here, you know.
Or I've shared this experience.
Well, this was a differentexperience I'll share.
But I've had intrusive thoughtswhere, you know, I didn't
really even trust myself todrive.

(27:38):
I wasn't living for God and Iwas in the mountains, in Reno,
going back to Reading mountains.
Uh, right, in reno, going backto reading, and um, I just had
this overwhelming sense andthought about driving my car off
the cliff which I was raised inchurch.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
I am not suicidal I don't know, what that means you
know, but it was such anoverwhelming thing.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
I, you know, had to call my dad and and, uh, he
prayed for me.
I just waited it out.
But intrusive thoughts firstshow up as a seed.
It's just a little thought youknow, drive your car off of this
overpass, or, um, why don't youmake a phone call?

(28:20):
And blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, right, it's.
Basically it can be anythingfrom a critical thought you're
just so ugly, or you're just toofat, no one's going to love you
.
Or it could come in as atemptation.
You know Well, nobody will knowthis, why don't you go do this,

(28:40):
or whatever, right?
Intrusive thoughts can come inall shapes and sizes, but the
original goal, I believe, is theenemy is testing to see what we
respond to.
Some things are so obvious wejust will reject it outright.
Like you know, I knew I'm notgoing to get in my car and drive

(29:02):
when I did not feel safe, youknow, and I was away from the
Lord.
Other things become sointertwined with our own
identity, especially if there isshame involved, like oh, you're
ugly and you know that person'slooking at you funny.
See, they're judging you Right.
And especially in a churchculture, that is very easy to

(29:24):
happen.
You know, pastor walks by,doesn't shake your hand.
An intrusive thought can easilycome in and say see, he knows
he doesn't like you, he'sjudging you, you know, and we
have to be careful.
That is actually the accuser ofthe brethren, which the Bible
identifies as Satan.
And so intrusive thoughts.

(29:45):
If we could ever really learnto recognize them for what they
are, we would live a much morevictorious life.
But people that don't have aframework of biblical
understanding or don't have arelationship with God, they
often believe whatever comesinto their brain, because, after

(30:07):
all, the brain exists withinour flesh, and so, um, they
believe that something's wrongwith them.
You know, obsessive compulsivedisorder for example is
intrusive thoughts.
That has grown into a behavioralpattern.
Right and so so intrusivethoughts are huge, I think, from

(30:28):
a context of just how itaffects our emotions, how it
affects our behaviors and, a lotof times, how it affects our
relationships with ourself, theability to have confidence in
ourself and confidence towardsGod, but in our relationship
with others.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
So that was a very long explanation and I think one
of the things too when youmentioned identity and talking
about that's kind of where therealm of the mind right, and my
mind again harkens back to thevery first kind of confrontation
that Jesus has with the enemy.

(31:07):
Right is in the wilderness,right when he's fasting and
praying, and every attack thatthe enemy brings to him is not
anything fabulous, right,anything big, epic.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
Every attack starts off with if you are the son of
God Right, every single one ofthose.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
Yeah.
So I think that that is soimportant to realize that that
is where the enemy comes.
If you really are this person,then they would love you.
If you really are this person,then they would like you.
If you really are this person,then you would be a good
Christian, and I think that I'mgetting ahead of ourselves.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
That's okay.
We'll probably will a milliontimes.

Speaker 3 (31:47):
But I think that's probably part of when we grow up
, when we realize, you know, hey, if I have had to earn love, if
I've had to earn respect or notrespect, but I've had to earn,
you know, affection or value inmy, in my home, you know, that
starts to develop kind of alittle mental checklist in our
mind that says, if I'm this,then I'm okay, right.
And it's hard for us sometimesto go okay, I need to kind of

(32:11):
rewire that and go.
Nothing I can do will be ableto earn God's love.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
Right.

Speaker 3 (32:18):
Right.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
And you know I'm really careful in I think let's
see how do I say this?
It's very easy to applyscripture to situations without
finding the correlation, but Ithink, in talking about God's
love, it is all-encompassing, itheals every aspect of our mind,

(32:45):
our flesh, our emotions and ourspirit.
But without a relationship withhim, without really having an
experience with him, it justsounds like hyperbole, right?
Is that the right word?
And I think that's possiblywhere there is a disconnect

(33:07):
between unbelievers and church,right, or between people who
have walked away from God, ismaybe they never really had that
experience to understand.
God is so much more than justwhat the pastor got up and said
on Sunday, right, and I thinkthose people who actually have

(33:29):
been in the trenches with theLord and has had to really kind
of walk this out through muchsuffering, because the suffering
is not that God is going to say, hey Kathy, hey Kelly, do blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
That's not what it's about.
It's about us coming face toface within ourself and being

(33:51):
able to confront our ownbrokenness in order to receive
and apply what God actually hasfor us, which, ironically, is
where identity is found, right,right, it's everything in.
You know Brother Clark used tosay which, ironically, is where
identity is found, right, it'severything in.
You know, brother Clark used toexplain this that the spirit

(34:12):
world is exactly parallel andopposite to the natural world.
And that seems like acontradiction, right?
But it's not.
It's just so fascinating, Ithink everything when it comes
to the Lord is so fascinating.
So the Spirit is the eternalpart that communes with God.

(34:34):
Our Spirit carries identity,purpose and a capacity for
worship and discernment, and sowhen it comes to, like we said,
the part that is saved, it's ourspirit.
But when we have a directconnection in our spirit to the

(34:55):
Lord, he then imparts into us orreveals to us what he's already
imparted into us.

Speaker 3 (35:03):
Right, yeah, no.
And I think that when thathappens too, he begins to
rebuild and repair also Rightright Things that are in us,
that he begins to speak to ourspirit, and I think that is why
there is this and Nate Wilson,bishop Nate Wilson, I have to

(35:28):
get the title right or he'llcall me no, he won't.
Bishop Nate Wilson always usedto say when you are saved, and
that infusing of spirit, of ourspirit and God's spirit, he said
it's like, of course this has adifferent correlation in the
therapy world, but there's anenmeshment, right.
Of course in the therapy world,you know, that means something

(35:50):
totally different, but in thisworld it's kind of like his
spirit and our spirit are sointertwined and so we abide in
him and he in us.
Right, exactly, there's suchthat close relationship that we
cannot help.
But sometimes his spirit startto reveal things and to speak to
us, and do things for us thaton our own we could not do.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
Right, but I love that what you're saying, because
let's take that and apply it toenmeshment in a psychological
world right, enmeshment is acodependency to another person,
it is an intertwining to anotherperson.
So if I'm enmeshed withsomebody that doesn't love me,

(36:38):
that is self-serving, that issuper self-centered and selfish
or abusive or addictive, myidentity is going to be coming
from that person, which will beso much less than what God ever
has for us, and so that might bea great segue into attachment.

(37:03):
Segue into attachment.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
Um, so just to recap, I mean do you think that that
it's something is taking the?

Speaker 3 (37:15):
place of god basically right.

Speaker 2 (37:15):
Some person is taking the place of god.
We should be enmeshed with him,right um and wholeness, because
he's the only pure form of love.
Right um, but throughbrokenness and through you know,
when.
When you know, the originaldesign of god's plan for us is
wholeness, right right, body,mind, soul, spirit.

(37:37):
That we would function in unityvertically with him.
Right right and so, and thenwhat happens?
I mean, I think there's veryfew people that, that I think
there's very few people who havenot been affected by a loss of
innocence.

Speaker 3 (37:57):
Oh, I'm sure, yeah, and and every time that I not
every time, but a lot of timeswhen I talk to individuals and
and you know, and talking withthem in my office and you could
probably a thousand times morethan me speak to this, Right but
, um, I think that even incouples counseling, sometimes
you'll, you'll talk about somethings and then kind of somebody

(38:19):
will say something and you kindof zero in on, kind of like, oh
you know, let's talk a littlebit more about that, or let's
have a one-on-one session andmaybe talk about that a little
bit more.
Um, but yeah, I I think that youknow, everyone is susceptible
and everyone has had somethinghappen to them, right?

Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah, Uh.

Speaker 3 (38:37):
I think, I don't think that there's anyone that
is uh uh immune to that yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
so why do you think childhood abuse and trauma occur
?
Who do you think is responsiblefor that?
From a spiritual lens?

Speaker 3 (38:57):
From a spiritual lens , I think it is fallen nature
that gives itself over to lust,temptations, all these things
you know, perversions, all thesethings that attack and when you
don't have, when someone doesnot have that ability to

(39:21):
withstand and ability to fightthings off right, I think it is
a result of someone has havegiven themselves over and then
they unfortunately act on it,you know and hurt someone else,
um, and it's.
that's the worst possible thing.
I think one of the worstpossible things that could ever

(39:41):
happen to someone is that, whenthat occurs, to realize that
this, this comes from yes, aperson made this decision, right
?
You know, a person made thischoice to to do this to someone
else.
I can't fathom how that wouldbe so like traumatic right to

(40:02):
someone and affect someone inthat way.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
Well, I always think the devil comes to steal, kill
and to destroy, and the thingthat he loves the most is to
steal the innocence from theinnocent, because if we are sent
from heaven with a purpose or apurpose into this earth, then

(40:28):
the enemy is always trying toabort that before we ever
discover who God created us tobe.
And so you know I can'tremember where it says it might
be in Corinthians, where it says, or Romans, that we either live
to the lord, we, we, we onlyserve one or two masters we

(40:50):
either serve the lord or weserve the enemy right, you
cannot serve two.
You would either cleave to one,hate the other right right,
right, and so you know thefallen world is a product of of
the fallen nature that that camewhen sin entered because of the
fall of Adam, right, right, andso everything is a byproduct of

(41:11):
that.
And so in some ways, you know,I worked with the offender
population for quite some timeand I've I've had a huge um and
I've had a huge, I had a burdenfor them, because it never felt
I would meet a felony parolee orwhatever, and I could see the

(41:34):
innocence in them, a lot of themen that are very hardened on
the outside.
When you sat and talked to them, you can see the little boy in
them or the little girl in them.
You can see the little boy inthem or the little girl in them.
You can see the innocence inthem.
But then the the product of themask.
They were on the outside tohide.
That you know um, but you, butthey always kind of revert back

(41:59):
to who they were before abusetook place, which I've always
found so fascinating.
And so in that sense, it's easyto love people when you know
that people are just reactingout of their absence of God.

(42:20):
You know what I'm saying.
Like we really need to beblaming the enemy for what he
does to people and how hemanipulates them, and then,
obviously, people have free will.
I just recently experiencedthat with something.
But, um, yeah, it's easier tosee and even maybe separate the

(42:43):
person, because they will alwaysbe a soul first, right between
the person who is a soul and thebehavior that they're acting
out of, because the enemy haspredominance in their life and
that is that is difficult, Ithink, to do, um, for, for, for
anyone that is.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
So I mean, that's, that's the to me.
We're, you know we're talkingabout, you know, god, uh, and
filling our spirit and our mindand all the four aspects.
And I think that is probably oneof the toughest lessons not
lessons, but one of the toughestthings that people have to kind

(43:25):
of come to terms with is makingthat separation out Right,
especially if you've beenoffended, right.
I mean, that has to besomething that is almost kind of
like that's the standard, right, that's the perfection.
I'm never going to probablyquite get there, you know, but

(43:49):
you know I'll.
If someone is, is, is fortunateenough and and and is able to
get to that place where theyshow forgiveness, it's still
okay to go.
Oh, but I can't let that personback into my life right, of
course.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
Yeah, there's boundaries right right, there's
always another podcast, it isanother podcast yes, yes um, so
so, for the people out therelistening, when you came into
this world, god created youperfect, and whatever home that

(44:25):
you were born into formed youright To become and your free
will choices to become whoeveryou are at this moment in time,
for good and for bad.
And so that leads us intoattachment.

(44:45):
There are four kinds ofattachment, and the way we
attach to somebody, or ourability to attach to the Lord,
is rooted in our home that we'reborn into.
Like I said a minute ago, yeah,attachment is probably at the
root of of everything, of everyyou know of everything and I

(45:08):
think about, um, my friend kimphillips.
Um, I don't know if yeah, ifyeah, they were at church with
us growing up.
Um, but I think kim phillips issuch a great example of secure
attachment absolutely and oneday I wanted to have her on here
because she's my friend fromchildhood and she, you know, I

(45:32):
don't want to say she's nevermade a mistake in her life.
But you know, from the outsidelooking in, kim has really done
it right.
She's lived for God her wholelife.
I don't think she ever gotwrapped up or entangled with the
kind of temptations that we didas kids, you know, in youth
group.
She got married at an early age.

(45:54):
She is a pastor's wife and Kim,to me, is the epitome of love
and gentleness.
You know me of love andgentleness, she's just so loving
.
Anytime you meet her, any placeyou see her around town, she's
just so loving.
And that is a byproduct of hersecure attachment, because she

(46:17):
was raised in a home with twoparents that loved her and spent
time with her and gave herattention.
And so attachment is about whenyour caregiver, in all of our
cases as a parent, shows up foryou when you need them.
When you're a little baby, ifyou cry, they're right there to

(46:38):
comfort you.
They're right there to feed you.
If you're a toddler and youneed help, they pick you up and
they do all the things you needright.
It's a sense of safety andsecurity, you know.
Hence secure attachment, and soeverything after that can

(47:00):
create chaos in our life, whichI'll.
I'll let you talk about thosetypes of attachment.
But secure attachment is veryhard to come by, and, yeah, it's
just very hard to come by, andI would, I would think that in
today's culture it is definitelythe minority, it's a rarity.

(47:28):
Yeah, it's definitely aminority, and everything else is
.
You know, the other kinds ofattachments.

Speaker 3 (47:32):
So right, uh, so the um.
Sorry, what's the actual nameof?

Speaker 2 (47:36):
it avoidant anxious avoidant and anxious.

Speaker 3 (47:40):
Okay, okay.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
And disorganized.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
Okay, all right.
Yeah, so you know there'savoidant attachment when you
know caregivers are distant.
You see the effect that thatkind of an attachment has on
youth at that age, because as achild they learn to sort of

(48:15):
suppress emotion, to kind ofavoid any kind of closeness, to
kind of put people at an arm'sdistance, and you can really
kind of see how that leads tosort of a emotional detachment
from everyone else.
It definitely shows up, likewhen I would talk to student

(48:40):
ministries.
It definitely shows up at thatstage, you stage, you know
talking, you know 15, 16, 17, 18, right in that age it's kind of
like now it's kind of like Idon't want to say in full
blossom, but kind of like infull effect now where you can
completely see where okay now.
and and I think sometimes when ayoung person as is that stage

(49:04):
too and they've learned that ata very, very super young age,
they've learned that type ofattachment, I think that the
challenge is to plug them into abody of believers right.
Because it's kind of like well,the person that was supposed to
care for me uh did not, you know, or they were unavailable, or

(49:28):
they kind of you know, pushed meaway, right, and I think that,
um, when you start talking aboutthe church is your body, it can
, or the your body, but thechurch is the body of christ.
Right, it can go one of twoways.
Right, it can go like oh yeah,I've never had this before,
great this feels great and thisis automatic connection right,

(49:51):
or obviously the other side,where it's like I don't know
yeah, I don't fit

Speaker 2 (49:56):
right didn't fit at home, don't fit here, right?
Yeah, so avoidant attachmentoccurs when the caregiver is
distant or unresponsive, thechild learns to suppress
emotions and avoid closeness,which leads to emotional
detachment.
So, yeah, definitely shows upin early adolescence and teenage

(50:20):
years and then, for sure, inmarriage and relationships.
Right, oh, absolutely.
When someone is unable toemotionally connect, there's
like this veil that's presentthat prevents them from being
able to connect.
Right, and most people areunaware, right, they just grow

(50:40):
up and think that who they areis normal.
They're not always even awareof themselves.
They have no self-introspection, which can lead to lots of
personality disorders.

Speaker 3 (50:54):
Yeah, and when I talk to people also, sometimes it's
kind of like okay, guys, as faras couples go, hey, we're
designed to connect on a lot ofdifferent levels and if we're
only connecting on one, thenthat's going to build resentment
in a relationship, right, andso if you're not connecting
emotionally as well asphysically and spiritually and

(51:15):
socially and all these otherkinds of things, that's going to
harbor feelings toward theother person in your
relationship.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
Yeah, because we're a whole body creature, right?
So important to note thatattachment bonds get broken when
a child is zero to five yearsold.
Now there's some research thatsays it's zero to seven years
old, but I believe it's zero tofive because I've had
five-year-olds, I've actuallyhad four-year-old kiddos.

(51:44):
You know, and you can alreadysee and they're already behaving
.
So I think by the time a kiddois five, six and seven years old
, there's already some patternsdeveloped.
And I think the research is, bythe time a child is eight years
old, 80% of their emotionalregulation or dysregulation is

(52:06):
already established.
That's a very scary thing ateight years old.
And so for anybody that areyouth pastors, sunday school
teachers, teacher teachers, thiswindow that we have with kids
in elementary school and, youknow, up to eight years old, is

(52:28):
where we really have the abilityto influence children for good.

Speaker 3 (52:33):
So crucial.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
It's so, so crucial.
And I've become such a believerin Sunday school ministry
because that's our formativeyears and it's really hard to
unlearn what we have learned ifwe didn't learn something great.
You know about the Lord, right?
So anxious attachment resultsin inconsistent caregiving.

(52:57):
So if a parent, if you got alittle baby, and the parent is
inconsistent, right, sometimesthey're there, sometimes they're
not I'm guilty of this.
As a parent, I've mourned andgrieved and asked God to remove
it from my son.
But I got divorced when my sonwas like nine months old, and so

(53:20):
we that's a whole differentstory but we shared custody and
so the way the courts were setup is I would have him a few
days, his dad would have him afew days, and he's nine months
old, he's still very close tonursing and very attached to his

(53:40):
mama, and then I have to lethim go and then he's with his
dad and his dad was a great dad.
So no complaints there.
But my child grew up veryanxious and I distinctly
remember one night and I wishthe Lord would remove this
memory from me, but I rememberone night because I was really

(54:03):
crazy back then, really woundedactually, and I just didn't know
how to deal with it exceptthrough alcohol.
And my little toddler child wasprobably two and a half or
three years old and I had livedwith some friends in a condo and
I'd put him to bed.
It was probably 10 o'clock atnight by this time He'd already

(54:25):
been put to bed, you know, laidwith them.
While he fell asleep, thoughthe was all tucked away.
I was getting ready to go outfor the night with my
girlfriends and his babysitterwas going to take care of him,

(54:47):
and as I was getting ready towalk out the door, my little
baby was standing at the top ofthe stairs, crying, you know.
And I think about how he grew upfeeling so anxious.
And, you know, as he grew I'dalways told him, but I could
remember seeing him and hisfeeling was always that I was
going to leave, always, always,always.

(55:08):
And I think that's the effectof a broken home on kids, and a
lot of kids grow up veryanxiously attached when divorce
occurs, because what was normalfor them in their early
childhood became disrupted andthey no longer knew what was

(55:31):
going to be safe and secure,because everything that they
knew and had been taught gottotally blown out of the water
and I never really understoodhow severe severe divorce is for
children at early ages, becausewe and I was guilty of this.
I thought that my son justwouldn't remember.

(55:53):
In it he talks about how ourbody, even in utero, when a mom
is pregnant, retains memory andretains the effects of trauma,
whether mental, emotional,physical.

Speaker 1 (56:14):
Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 (56:16):
It's quite fascinating.
So divorce plays a huge, hugerole in anxious attachment.
But anxious attachment isreally where codependency kind
of sets in.
And you teach the Christiancodependency book.
What have you learned throughthat process?

Speaker 3 (56:37):
Well, what I've learned is kind of being able to
look at and realize that peoplewho end up with, or end not end
up with, but end up in acodependent relationship
sometimes we focus a lot on thebehavior of the other person,

(57:01):
right that they're enmeshed withright, right, right.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
And so we're responding only to their
behavior.
If they're nice to me, I'll benice to them, Right?
If they're mean to me, I'll bemean to them.
Or if they're moving away fromme, I'm going to try to.
I'll be really anxious to getthem back to me.

Speaker 3 (57:21):
But then my thing has been kind of looking at okay,
so you have the codependentperson that's enmeshed with this
other person.
How did that codependent personend up there?
And then we go back to thingslike attachment.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
Right.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
What happened in childhood.

Speaker 3 (57:36):
Right, and one of the courses that we talk about is
we talk about the framing andthe structure of home Right, and
that's one of the firstchapters that we talk about,
because we model, we live outwhat we see at home.
So if this is how it happenedat home when we're zero to five,
or zero to seven, if this washow it was carried or presented

(57:57):
to us when we're very young,this is how we're going to do it
in another relationship.
I once had a therapist tell meone time we were talking and he
said you know what he said.
Sometimes people buy a new carhoping that it's going to change
their driving behavior.
This new car is going to begreat.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
It's going to fix it all.

Speaker 3 (58:19):
Right, right, but he said you realize, though.
He said you can buy a new car,but you have to fix the driver.
Right right, and so we talkabout.
You know, in that course wetalk about so much about how
what we see at home and whatwe've developed is what we're
going to carry over into ournext relationship.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
Right.

Speaker 3 (58:36):
And if we don't realize that and be able to
identify that, then we're stillgoing to keep not only carrying
that over into the nextrelationship, but also that's
what we're going to model to ourkids, right, and it kind of
perpetuates that codependentbehavior down the road, not only
for our own relationships,right, but for our children's

(58:58):
and grandchildren'srelationships too.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
Right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
So important.
The last attachment style is adisorganized attachment, which
is developed when caregivers area source of both comfort, um,
and fear.
So typically that's with abuse,right, um, we see this in a

(59:21):
domestic violence cycle.
But a child lacks a real, clearunderstanding of what their
household will look like.
So let's say you have a littlekiddo who grows up with an
alcoholic parent.
Alcohol is so unpredictablethis kid doesn't know.
Okay, how's mom coming hometonight?

(59:43):
Is mom going to be loving andhave dinner made, or is mom
going to be asleep on the couchor screaming at us for no reason
, right?
Or dad, is dad going to evencome home after work and is mom
going to be all crazy andworried because he's at the bar,
or you know, on and on?

(01:00:04):
Or is dad going to be angry andstart beating up mom or start
beating up us, right?
Or you have a parent thatsexually abuses their child,
right, you never know.
You never going to know whatrole you play as the child if

(01:00:25):
you have to protect yourself.
At night, is your parent gonnacome in and abuse you?
Or during the day, you knowthey're on the pta board like,
right you know?
Disorganized attachment is whenboth are present at the same
time and a kid has no sense ofsafety, um, or really sense of

(01:00:49):
real love, right, absolutely so.
That that's a huge um, it's ahuge issue and it's so very
common, especially withchildhood trauma, which is
neglect, and that's more when aparent is avoidant a lot of
times.
So neglect, physical abuse,sexual abuse, and then
psychological abuse, which is alot of verbal abuse and and

(01:01:12):
manipulation and control.
Like, we don't always talkabout manipulation and control
of a parent when it comes topsychological abuse, but when
you have a parent who isnarcissistic or borderline or
any of these other personalitydisorders which, by the way, are

(01:01:35):
rooted in childhood trauma, akiddo can grow up with all that
kind of stuff, right?
So, kelly, I'm going to breakthese back down specifically.
So, a person that has avoidantattachment, the inability to
connect emotionally, how is thatgoing to affect their ability

(01:01:58):
to connect?
Talk to God, pray to God,connect with God, connect with a
pastor, connect with a churchyou know what would you say?

Speaker 3 (01:02:10):
That's going to affect them, I mean on a trust
level.
So it it boils down to trust.
Can I trust this person, youknow, because, um, I, I haven't
got, I haven't received thatlevel of care, and so it's
developed these kind of thoughtsand behaviors in me and so I
don't know not necessarilybehavior, these ways of

(01:02:32):
communicating with the world,and I lack trust.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
Do you think they're aware of that?

Speaker 3 (01:02:38):
I think sometimes they are at a superficial level.
I think that there is thatawareness, but I think that a
lot of what they're experiencingis being driven by that
breakdown of trust on a verydeep level.
And so I think that when youstart talking about God as your

(01:02:58):
father, right, that's adifficult bridge sometimes for
people to cross, right.
Right, yeah, because of theirpast experience.
But then when they get to thepoint where they realize god is
love, but like you were talkingabout pure love, right, um,
that's when the bridge starts toget crossed, right, um, and I

(01:03:23):
think that it's difficult whenthere's not that trust there.
I think that it's difficult forpeople to establish
relationships in church, right,and when there's that
vulnerability issue, because,basically, trust is built right
on a series of people beingvulnerable with each other.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
Yeah, we're gonna get to that in the next episode, I
think.
Because, trust and fear is ahuge factor.

Speaker 3 (01:03:52):
Right, because when people have that trust issue,
it's kind of like I can'tconnect to the church because
it's not that I don't trust thepeople, right, it's that there's
something in me thatautomatically questions all of
these things.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
And avoidant, particularly avoidant attachment
.
They really lack emotion ingeneral.
They really lack capacitysometimes for the emotion itself
because they didn't receive it.
Right, you know, probably thebiggest form of of neglect.
And so, um, for applicablepurposes, if you are a person

(01:04:34):
who recognizes me, you know I'mnot really attached to people
very much.
I can take them, relieve them.
Someone breaks up with me, itnever really quite breaks my
heart.
Yeah, I'll miss them, but Iwasn't really attached.
If you're a person that findsyourself with that, I would

(01:04:55):
really, from a sincere andearnest place, ask you to say a
little prayer for God to revealto you where that got broken,
because God wants to heal thatyou know.
And so as God begins to do thework of restoration on our
hearts, he will expose parts ofus that are wounded.

(01:05:18):
And so, if you know because youwon't feel it probably, but if
you know and I don't quite getattached to things that might be
a clue that you need somehealing in that area and ask God
, god, just give me the emotionsthat you created me to have,

(01:05:38):
because they seem to be missing.
They're not missing, they'rejust buried under trauma, right?
So anxious attachment.
That's where codependency comesin.
So what does that person looklike in the Christian faith?

Speaker 3 (01:05:58):
Sometimes an anxious someone has that anxious
attachment.
Anxious someone has thatanxious attachment that's going
to look like someone that does.
I'm trying to say thisdelicately.
In the church world always saysyes to everything.

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
Yeah, people pleasing .

Speaker 3 (01:06:14):
Yes, I see that a lot .
And there was a book I cannotremember the title of it, anyway
, it was basically a boundarybook.
It might have been Cloud inTownsend, I can't remember, but
it was talking.
Remember the title of it.
Anyway, it was basically aboundary book, it might've been
cloud in towns and I can'tremember, but it was talking
about the power of saying no,that it's okay.
Don't tell people, it's okay tosay no.

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
And you can't say no, though, until you know who you
are, because codependency isabout getting my value from you,
right, right, if.
If you're the person that givesme my value, I need that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
Right, right.
So someone in church that isfacing that kind of, or that has
had that kind of, attachment inthe past is usually someone
that will always be the one thatwill take on other tasks.
Even though it's driving themcrazy, you know, and it's
stressing them out, and they'vegot so many things on their
plate, they will always takethat on.
That's really what it lookslike a lot of, and it can also

(01:07:09):
look like being a little needy,needing a lot from leadership, a
lot of reassurance, yeah,reassurance, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah.
I've seen that a lot.
Yeah, I've experienced thatsometimes too.
No, no, I have too.
I've seen that a lot.
Yeah, I've experienced thatsometimes too.
No, no, I have too.
I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:07:27):
I tell my pastor all the time.
I sometimes just call hisfamily so I can say this, but
I'll call him and just say Ikind of miss you.
I need to talk, basicallybecause that's appropriate.
There's times we do need to dothat, and I think there's times
we do need to do that and Ithink there's times we do need
encouragement.
You know from our leaders andpastors.

(01:07:49):
But when there is an attachmentwound and it comes out through
anxious attachment people, I'mgoing to just relay this back to
God.
This is the person who prays,prays, prays, and when God
doesn't answer right away, theybecome very anxious about

(01:08:13):
whether they did something wrong, whether God is listening to
them, whether God is going toanswer their prayer, and so they
really struggle with patienceto wait on God's timing or
struggle with just leaving theircares at the feet of the Lord

(01:08:35):
and getting up and going abouttheir day, because they need God
to respond.
And often the Christian journeyis God is showing us who he is,
sometimes when he doesn'trespond.

Speaker 3 (01:08:47):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
And that's very hard for someone who has anxious
attachment.
And I think this is wherepeople come into the church and
you know that parable of theseed that falls into the ground.

Speaker 3 (01:09:01):
Different kinds of ground.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
Yeah, and so I think, as leaders and pastors, and
even Christians who go to church, it's helpful to understand the
behavior patterns of peoplewith their attachment issues,
because it's all just really abyproduct of what happened to
them in childhood, you know, andhow they can struggle in their

(01:09:27):
relationship with the Lord, youknow.
So, last one, disorganizedattachment.
This is the person that comesfrom an abusive home, an
alcoholic home kind of.
You know the good and the bad.

Speaker 3 (01:09:43):
Right, right, I would you know if you've seen the
good and the bad.
Right right, I would you knowif you've seen the good and the
bad.
I think, though, sometimes,that when you've experienced
both of those things and hadthat kind of attachment, I think
that, as far as the church goes, I think it's the person that
is.
You know, again, I'm I'mspeaking slowly and thinking

(01:10:07):
slowly here because I don't wantto offend anybody or anything
like that but I think it's kindof one of those types that are
on the mountaintop on Sunday andMonday morning they're crashing
in the valley.
Yeah, yeah.
And and I think the challengefor when, if someone says, yeah,
I recognize myself, as you know, as having this kind of
attachment, I think that thechallenge is to go okay, let's

(01:10:30):
find a consistency in God, and Ithink one of the challenges of
that is going okay.

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
They don't know how.

Speaker 3 (01:10:38):
And they don't know how.
And one of the best ways, Ithink, to kind of work that out
is to go all right, I am goingto pray for 15 minutes a day, 10
minutes a day, whatever yourschedule allows, an hour,
whatever your schedule allows.
Right, I am going to do thisfor this period of time to
establish sort of a consistentthing that I do every day, so

(01:11:00):
that I can not only experiencethrough prayer but I can go oh
look, I'm doing somethingconsistently on a daily basis in
my spiritual walk with God.
That's helping me to sort ofcounteract all of the other
things that I suffer from, fromthat attachment.

Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
Yeah, because I think that I totally just lost my
train of thought.
But those become the behaviorpatterns that form right.
And so there's a fun littlequote that says you do good, you
feel good, you do bad, you feelbad.
And so it's not about how muchtime you spend in prayer 15

(01:11:44):
minutes or whatever.
God's there, he's there with us, no matter what.
But it's about what you'redoing to yourself when you tell
yourself I am dedicating thistime to spend in prayer.
Or reading Right or reading yourBible.
You then know hey, I've donesomething good, check that off
my list.
I can now pat myself on theback knowing I'm on the right

(01:12:07):
track.
I am spending time with theLord, I am spending time in my
word.
It makes it much more difficultfor the enemy to come in and
condemn you because he doesright.
Oh, you didn't pray today andyou didn't do this today.
So when we develop thesepatterns, I really sort of feel

(01:12:28):
like god is so perfect in theway he does everything because
he understands this right.
The bible says as a manthinketh in his heart, so is he.
That's really the foundation ofcognitive behavioral therapy
right, yeah so.
So all of those things are sointerconnected in our ability to

(01:12:49):
become whole in him, but alsoin the way we perceive ourselves
.
Right, because at the root ofattachment is a wound.
You didn't get what you need.
You know wounds are basicallynot getting your needs met, or
being abused and told a lot ofhorrible things about yourself

(01:13:12):
to where you don't know yourself, you don't know your value, you
don't know your worth, um, andthat becomes a seedbed for all
sorts of lies from the enemy andso um.
So you know that that can come,like I said earlier, from
divorce, from sexual abuse, fromphysical abuse, from verbal

(01:13:34):
abuse, from poverty, evenaccidents um yes, from or or uh.
Criminal activity yeah,accidents, car accident, brain
injury, traumatic birthexperience there's so much that
contribute to a person's abilityto form secure attachment.

(01:13:59):
But the good news is that Godhas given us a way to heal, and
I believe that he revealshimself to us as the provider,
the protector, our refuge, ourcounselor, the mighty God, our
prince of peace.
He reveals himself to us in allthose ways as we begin to heal

(01:14:24):
through all of these things thathappen because we live in a
fallen world.

Speaker 3 (01:14:28):
Right, and I mean, one of the major reasons why God
revealed himself in so manynames is because he realized
humanity is facing so manydifferent things, right, that I
have to not have to, but I wantto reveal myself to each and
every one of these situations,but it's the same, god, right.
Yes, he's the great I am sohe's going to be, and he works

(01:14:50):
all that out in us and developsthose patterns that counteract
everything that we've learned inthe past.

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:14:58):
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ
Jesus.
You know, and that is somethingthat to me is kind of I don't
know I'll say fabulous, becausewhat it does is that mind that
was in Christ, that sacrificial,that you know, the joy that was
set before him, all of thosethings, if it is in us, it can

(01:15:21):
equip us and arm us, so to speak, to address all of that that
has happened to us in the past,right, right, but be also be
able to not just address it, butto bring us out and uh along
the way and help us move forwardand establish healthy patterns,
establish things in our livesthat are, you know, whatsoever.

(01:15:43):
Whatsoever things, whatsoever,things are pure, whatsoever,
things are just right.

Speaker 2 (01:15:47):
Right yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:15:48):
Think on these things right.
I think that's so important?

Speaker 2 (01:15:53):
because I tell people all the time in therapy.
The Bible tells us what to doThink on these things, because
when we have negative thoughtpatterns and we have intrusive
thoughts and we constantly onlysee the bad, he instructs us.
Now you have to, on purpose,with your free will, choose to
think what's good, Choose tothink what's lovely, choose to

(01:16:17):
think what's just, and thattakes effort.
I have to sit down and make amental list.
You know, and I do this often.
I have a note on my phone rightnow.
What do I know for sure?
I come back to that questionall the time, no matter where
we're at in our journey, likenone of us have ever arrived, we

(01:16:38):
don't ever have all the answers.
I have to constantly come backto what do I know for sure about
God and about myself and who Iam in him, who he says that I am
, and constantly remind myself,as David, predisposed to think
the worst.
We are predisposed to see theworst.

(01:17:10):
We have to work at looking atwhat's good and what's true and
what's lovely and what's honestand what's of a good report.
But you know, I used to tellpeople in nutrition it only
takes a few weeks to learn howto eat right, and then it's just
what you do.
It just becomes who you are,and so we have to learn new

(01:17:34):
things.
But I guess the takeaway I wantto leave with people and I'll
let you give a takeaway too iswe are not our behaviors.
We do have free will, um, but Ithink God you know.
No, but we do have free willand I'm grateful every day that

(01:17:57):
I did not die in my sin, um.
But what I do want to say topeople is a lot of our behaviors
that take us away from God andcause us to fall into temptation
and cause us to see the worldthrough a lens of rejection or a

(01:18:18):
lens of abandonment is usuallya product of the devil's working
in early childhood, and that isnot who God says that you are,
and so you know.
I would encourage you, if any ofthis resonates with anybody

(01:18:39):
listening, I would reallyencourage you to get curious,
really, about who does God saythat you are right, because he
made you on purpose, with apurpose, and it's not too late
I'm a super late bloomer, so youknow.

(01:19:02):
Be curious about who God is ifit's been a long time since
you've looked at him as apossibility and who he says that
you are.
What do you want to say to?

Speaker 3 (01:19:13):
people.
No, I'm going to go back to thescripture that I talked about.
You know, let this mind be inyou, which was also in Christ
Jesus.
Right, it is no matter wherewe're at or what we're facing.
Allowing his mind to be in us.

Speaker 2 (01:19:28):
How does someone do that?

Speaker 3 (01:19:29):
To allow ourselves to go okay, there is something
bigger, there is somethingbetter for me down the road, to
allow God to show us what he hasin store for us.

Speaker 2 (01:19:42):
And so what would the first step be for someone who
wants to do that but doesn'tknow how to do that?

Speaker 3 (01:19:49):
The first step, I would say, is to open your Bible
, and today we can look on ourphones, right now, and you can
do a search and say you know, doa search about you know, let
this mind be in you, which wasalso in Christ Jesus, and then
begin to take those scripturesthat you find about you know all
of these different things, andbegin to wherever you're at

(01:20:09):
Right.
I need scriptures on you know,the battle of the mind.
I need scripture on whateveryou know sin, temptation,
whatever the thing might be andput those things in a list and
begin to not only read those ona daily basis, but begin to pray
those on a daily basis, butbegin to pray those on a daily
basis.

Speaker 2 (01:20:26):
Ask God for those.

Speaker 3 (01:20:27):
Yeah, and what I've done is is is I've been in times
in my life where I have gotten,I have finished praying Right
and I have you know God'slistened to me.
Carry on for an hour orwhatever.

Speaker 1 (01:20:40):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:20:41):
And then I finally said okay, god, I want you to
show me.
I'm not trying to superspiritualize anything, but I
just say God, I want you to showme how you see me.
Yeah, right, and all I've doneis I don't recommend people just
open up the Bible and startreading.
I find the scripture thatpertains to you Right, but I've

(01:21:02):
done that before and I have justsaid God, show me how you see
me.
And I was flipping through anold Bible the other day and I
found a mark that I had put inone of my old preaching Bibles
and I opened it up and it wasright in a spot and I was like,
oh, I wonder what you know.
And I began to read it and Iwas like, oh, this is the answer

(01:21:22):
that I just asked God for.
I was like you know what?
There's a reason why I justrandomly stuck a bookmark in
there, however many years ago.
But to begin to not only praythose scriptures and ask God
what are those scriptures?
Or to begin to search for themon your phone, but then at the
end of your prayer time, go now,god, show me.
And God may not open up theBible and show you the exact

(01:21:45):
scripture, right, but throughoutthe day, there's going to be
things happen to you.
Be attuned to those things.
Things are going to happen toyou.
Things are going to come yourway, opportunities are going to
come your way.
There's going to be a song thatyou're going to be streaming
that's going to speak to you.
There's going to be a message,a podcast, that is going to
speak to you.
Hopefully, that is going to beattuned to those things

(01:22:06):
throughout your day, becausethey're not just circumstantial,
they're intentional and by God,to get your attention.
It's a temptation for us to go.
Oh, this is circumstantial,this just happened to be on here
, and I think that kind of comesback to kind of how we are
wired as people.
We are really good as humanbeings.
We are really good atcollecting evidence against us,

(01:22:31):
right.
Why we're no good, why we can'tdo this, why God doesn't love
us it's called confirmation bias.
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:22:38):
Where I believe that I'm not good, and then
everything that happens to mebegins to confirm that belief.
Right and then.
But what I me?

Speaker 3 (01:22:44):
begins to confirm that belief.
Right, and then, but what Itell folks is like we're really
good at that.
I said but what I want you tochallenge you is to go okay,
I've got 10 things on that list.
Find 10 things on the otherside of the ledger, right, 10
things.

Speaker 2 (01:22:58):
Yeah, what's the opposite.

Speaker 3 (01:22:59):
Yeah, what else?
What you've said before, right,what else is true?

Speaker 2 (01:23:02):
Right, right.

Speaker 3 (01:23:03):
So this might be true in my life.
But what else is true?
You know, finding 10 otherthings that I'm happy about, 10
other things that I'm good at,10 other things that God has
spoken to me, 10 other things tobalance that out, and then
begin to go oh, there are a lotof things that you know.

Speaker 2 (01:23:23):
Are also true Right.

Speaker 3 (01:23:24):
Exactly that Right.
Exactly that's good about you.
Exactly exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:23:28):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think that that's a goodplace to leave off.
You know, at the end of the day, as a backslider, I thought a
lot of things that I realizedwere not true, and I remember

(01:23:50):
the day I prayed back throughand the day I committed my life
back to God, how faulty mythinking was, and it really
scared me because what I hadrealized is all these, I had put
so much confidence in what Ithought I knew was true and what

(01:24:11):
I believe to be true, and theway I you know for my life cause
I was 28 at that time and, um,and to come face to face with
the fact that I had gotten itwrong caused me to not trust
myself and it really left mewith no choice but to trust God.
And over time, god has, youknow, god has reestablished the

(01:24:36):
confidence I have in myself, butnow it's grounded on the word
and not in my own, you know, inmy own, you know my my own
thinking, um, and so I think youknow what I'm trying to say is,
for those of you guys who areestranged from the Lord or grew
up in church and haven't comeback because of whatever, for

(01:24:57):
whatever reason, um, I wouldjust ask you to maybe give God
another chance and try it again.
What I said is, lord, you know,last time I knew how to do this
was when I was a kid and Ididn't do it very well.
So I'm going to try you now asan adult, with my adult mind and
my adult experiences, and tryto get to know you again from a

(01:25:21):
different perspective.
And you know, god has blown mymind um and taught me so much Um
, but mostly I really think thatthe only true healing that can
come from childhood wounds isthrough the love of God.
It is the most perfect lovepure love.
Yeah, yeah, so, um, anyways, Ihope this was helpful.

(01:25:45):
I'm still looking for those ofyou out there who have a
testimony to share about yourreturn to the Lord and, in the
meantime, if you have anyquestions about this episode,
you can feel free to email me oremail Kelly, or email Kelly.
We'll attach his information inthe link and hope you'll join

(01:26:07):
us next week for part two, whichis going to be all about fear
and distrust, how that getsembedded in our hearts and our
minds, and also how that affectsus as a whole person and
further kind of creates abarrier between us and God.

(01:26:28):
So until next time, kelly,thanks for being with me.

Speaker 3 (01:26:31):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:26:32):
Bye.

Speaker 1 (01:26:35):
We are so glad you joined us.
If you have a story ofredemption or have worn the
label of a backslider, we wouldlove to hear from you.
If you'd like to support ourministry, your donation will be
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Visit our website atkathychastaincom.
We hope you will tune in forour next episode.