March 1, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode, host John Stahl (deacon at Immanuel OPC, Wilmington, DE) leads a discussion with Shiloh OPC, Raleigh, NC Deacon Tim Hopper and Harvest OPC in Wyoming, MI Associate Pastor of Youth and Evangelism Adrian Crum to consider practical ways to help your congregation understand that a deacon's role extends beyond taking the offering and performing building maintenance.
Referenced in this episode:
- The Letters of John Newton (Hardcover Banner of Truth Edition)
- The Deacon: Biblical Foundations for Today's Ministry of Mercy by Cornelis Van Dam
- The Reformed Deacon podcast hosted by the OPC Committee on Diaconal Ministries
- “Finding the Next Deacon” (S4: E 4 Feb. 2025 episode of TRD)
- “The Heart of a Deacon” (S 3: E18 Sept. 2024 episode of TRD)
- “How the Westminster Standards Relate to Deacons” (S3: E 9 April 2024 episode of TRD)
- “A Study of Acts 6 with RHM Charles Biggs” (S 2: E 12 June 2023 episode of TRD)
- “The Deacon is No Small Office” C. Nick Willborn (audio from PSE 2018)
- OPC Book of Church Order (Section 11 on Deacons)
- The OPC Committee on Diaconal Ministries (CDM) website
- OPC Presbytery Diaconal Summit 2025
- OPC National Diaconal Summit 2026
You can find all of our episodes at thereformeddeacon.org. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for giveaways and more information. Find other resources on OPCCDM.org. Make sure to send us some feedback on your podcast player or ask a diaconal question by going to OPCCDM.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tim Hopper (00:00):
Deacons just in conversations we have with folks
in the church can takeopportunities that we get to
educate people about what thediaconate does.
A lot of Reformed churches wehave folks that come from a
variety of backgrounds, whethernew believers or from different
types of churches, where adeacon might mean or be a
different thing.
We should be ready to explainwhat we do and how we fit in the
(00:20):
church.
David Nakhla (00:21):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
John Stahl (00:41):
Hello, my name is John Stahl.
I'm a deacon at Imanuel OPC inWilmington, delaware.
Today I'm joined by Adrian Crum, associate Pastor of Youth and
Evangelism at Harvest OPC inWyoming, Michigan, and Tim
Hopper, a deacon at Shiloh OPCin Raleigh, North Carolina.
We serve together on the OPCCommittee on Diaconal Ministries
(01:04):
.
Today Adrian, Tim and I will behaving a conversation, tossing
around some ideas on how deaconscan help their church
understand what a deacon can dofor them.
So I think we'd agree that mostknow what Act 6 says about the
role of a deacon serving thewidows and needy of the church
(01:25):
so the elders can devotethemselves to the ministry of
the word and prayer.
But what does that look like intoday's world, where we also
have buildings and budgets tocontend with?
This topic arose from thisanecdotal situation.
Someone in a church had aserious health need, but didn't
even think to approach thedeacons.
(01:46):
When this scenario wasdiscussed, we wondered if it
might be more common than we hadimagined.
So the question is why wouldthis be and how can we attempt
to fix it?
How do we let people know thatdeacons do more than building
maintenance and offerings,though that deacons do more than
(02:07):
building maintenance andofferings?
So I'd like to start withdiscussing how the deacons and
elders might make it abundantlyclear to the congregation that
the deacons are there to servethe people.
How can we communicate thisbetter?
Tim Hopper (02:16):
In my own experience , the most formal way that we've
done this for our congregationis at our annual congregational
meeting and sometimes we have asecond congregational meeting
during the year.
We'll give a deacon report andshare some high level
information on just theactivities of the diaconate and
our diaconal fund and we usuallywill take an opportunity there
(02:38):
to try to impress on people whatwe're here for and let them
know we're here to serve andthat we try to discover and seek
out ways in which we can servefolks.
But sometimes we just don'tknow and we need folks to come
to us and really try to get thatmessage across with hopes that
people will hear it byrepetition and also people will
(03:00):
hear it and then pass that alongto others.
Because you know, sometimessomeone in the church will be
having a discussion with anotherperson and it's really helpful
if that other person says youknow you need to go talk to the
deacons about this.
Adrian Crum (03:11):
I think it's very easy to reduce what a deacon
does to kind of having acheckbook.
Like if I need help, then Ineed to go to the deacons and
ask for money.
And I'm going to wait until thevery, very last minute, when
things are really, reallyserious and I'm at the edge of
(03:31):
getting foreclosed on my home ordefaulting on some other kind
of loan, to then ask fordiaconal help.
And the reality is what theBible teaches a deacon must be
is a list of character qualities.
I was very struck by that as Iwas reading the character
qualities of 1 Timothy, chapter3.
It actually doesn't tell usexactly all the roles of a
(03:54):
deacon.
The Bible tells us there was asituation in Acts 6 that
required the help of deacons,but we need men who have good
judgment, who do not want toserve themselves, according to 1
Timothy 3.
And then the field isrelatively wide in terms of what
a deacon is called to do forpeople.
So I always encourage people inour church if you don't know
(04:14):
what to do in a situation, askone of your deacons if they need
to give you some sort of wisecounsel in many, many different
areas of life, not onlyfinancial but other aspects of
their life.
I think it's very, very helpfulfor men who have been
consistently praying for people,tracking people, giving them
different kinds of advice to goto a deacon for that kind of
help.
John Stahl (04:33):
So, Adrian, you're suggesting that the best way to
do this is others to refer theirfellow members to the deacons
or the members to actually go tothe deacons.
And, Tim, you were talking moreon the lines of a large group
instruction during the annualmeetings.
Tim Hopper (04:53):
I think also deacons just in conversations we have
with folks in the church cantake opportunities that we get
to educate people about what thediaconate does.
And there are a lot of ourchurches now, a lot of Reformed
churches.
We have folks that come from avariety of backgrounds, whether
new believers or from differenttypes of churches, where a
deacon might mean or be adifferent thing, and it's just.
(05:15):
You know, as we have thoseopportunities, we should be
ready to explain what we do andhow we fit in the church.
John Stahl (05:23):
Have either of you had the opportunity, or has the
minister, the one who does newmembership classes?
Do you make sure that the roleof deacon is presented there?
I'm not sure that we do.
Adrian Crum (05:37):
I have never seen the diaconate described in a new
membership class, so I thinkthat's a wonderful idea.
I think, unfortunately, the waythat most people understand
what deacons are is justobserving deacons at their job
in the different churches thatthey've been at, and
unfortunately that is oftenrestricted to things like making
(05:57):
decisions about whether or notto expand a building or fix a
building.
I think it's helpful to teachat different ways in membership
classes and in other contexts,what deacons do.
Tim Hopper (06:07):
Yeah, I think it'd be interesting too and I
actually don't know how ourpastors handle it either, but
it'd be great for whoever'steaching the membership class to
pull in a deacon and have themtalk to the class for 15 minutes
.
I think that'd be a wonderfulthing, yeah.
John Stahl (06:21):
At our church we, just within the last year, we've
tried to have the deacons do anannouncement actually before or
during monthly fellowship meal,just to tell them what we're
involved with some of the thingsthat we're doing, and so that's
an opportunity as well.
So you've brought up the pointabout people coming from
(06:45):
different backgrounds, different, even different reform
congregations where the deaconsdo different things.
Everyone has their own idea ofwhat a deacon does, and I'm sure
within the three churchesrepresented here, the deacons do
various things, have variousresponsibilities, do different
services that may be unlike theother two, but why do you think
(07:09):
that it's become the case thatmany people think of deacons as
taking care of the building andthe offering, but no more than
that?
Adrian Crum (07:16):
I think unfortunately tend to want to
reduce our job just generallyI'll speak as a pastor before I
speak about deacons we tend towant to reduce our job to the
predictable rhythms of tasksthat I can kind of check off the
list.
So I have to write a sermonthis week.
I'll check that off the list.
I have to prepare a bulletinthen also check that off the
list.
So I think deacons can thentend to restrict their jobs to
(07:39):
specific tasks that they cancheck off the list.
Right, you need the offering tobe counted.
I can.
That's a very objective thing.
I can then check off the list.
People are more messy and theytake a lot of time and, honestly
, if we could have 10 hours ofdiscipleship with someone for
every one hour that we dedicateto answering the question, how
much money should we give tothem, I think that would be very
(08:00):
, very worthwhile.
But we are all restricted inhow much time we have as
officers in the church, and so Ithink that ends up being
usually the restriction that wehave how much time can we give
to a situation and how can wededicate the right kind of work
to it?
But I do think oftentimesprayer and good judgment and
good counsel is what a lot ofsituations require.
Tim Hopper (08:21):
There's also just the practical aspect that the
facilities work or things alongthose financial work are things
that we can talk about and thatpeople see, whereas you know a
lot of more quote.
You know, diaconal needs arethings that we're going to be
much more discreet about forgood reason.
That's not necessarily a badthing, it's just the reality of
the situation and so that justputs the onus on us to do more
(08:45):
education there.
But it's it's not necessarily abad thing that people see you,
you know, fixing the toiletbefore the service and so they
think, well, deacons fix thetoilet before the service.
Well, that's great that they.
I think that's a good thing fora deacon to be doing potentially
, and it's good for people tosee deacons just willing to hop
up and serve.
But we can't just go publicizeoh, we, you know, we talked to
(09:06):
this widow for two hours afterthe service about this need,
right?
So it becomes an opportunityjust for us again to educate the
congregation.
One thing we've started sharingin our diaconal reports one of
the other deacons has starteddoing those reports and just
sharing for each year inaggregate how many households or
people within the congregationthat we've helped.
(09:27):
Not any specifics, but we'vehelped eight different families,
or something to that effect,with the goal of sharing a
little bit without breakinganyone's privacy, and let people
know that that we are doingthose things, cause it is very
difficult to share any level ofdetail there.
John Stahl (09:45):
Yeah, that's a good point.
I actually never consideredthat.
Totaling up and reporting thatwe may do that for offerings but
not for people, and that does.
I think that's a good idea.
I don't know whether it's truemuch in reform circles, but you
know, I pretty much grew up inan evangelical environment and
(10:06):
you know there was always thejoke that well, the preacher, he
has an easy job, he justpreaches on Sunday morning,
right, but that's his publicposition, that's his public role
.
But how many hours are spent inpreparing that, as well as
counseling and otheradministrative details and
(10:27):
ministering evangelism.
Whatever the minister does andyou know the minister, the
elders need to toot theminister's horn a little bit for
his benefit and the congregantsand similarly for us as deacons
.
Are there any other ideas thatyou may have to alleviate this
(10:47):
issue where the congregation,the members, don't really
understand what the deacons door all that they do?
Tim Hopper (10:55):
I mean, there's the obvious.
When the opportunity arises inpreaching to talk about the
diaconate, it's a goodopportunity for the minister to
educate the congregation.
But there are potentiallyopportunities for Sunday school.
You know, churches often aroundthe time of officer nominations
might do a short Sunday schoolseries on the offices, which I
think is a really helpful idea.
But you know, I think we justreally ultimately, whatever
(11:18):
approach we choose, you have tobe persistent and steady.
For many of us, ourcongregations have a lot of new
faces over time and they're justalways new folks or children
who are growing up in thecongregation that need to be
educated about it and you justreally have to, I think, just do
the slow drip of this over timeand shape people's perspective
(11:40):
and understanding.
Adrian Crum (11:41):
I think it's helpful also to realize that to
pick up the phone and call adeacon is just daunting
sometimes.
And so I think to ask at timespeople who are struggling to
know, should I even reach out tomy deacon or not?
Is my need big enough, whetherit's financial or other kind of
spiritual care?
And I think I ask sometimespeople is it okay if I call a
(12:02):
deacon for you and they reachback to you and I'll just
explain a little bit what'sgoing on and they can talk to
you?
And I think that can be ahelpful way to refer people
together, because I think thebest way to know what a deacon
does is to actually speak with adeacon about something and get
to benefit from their wisdom andtheir experience.
And oftentimes it's not asscary as it seems to reach out
and ask for help.
So if they call you and kind ofpray for you and walk you
(12:24):
through the situation, you seehow beneficial and practical the
help of the deacon really is.
John Stahl (12:29):
And like what you said, Adrian, about, if somebody
comes to you and you realize,oh, this is a diaconal issue,
something that a deacon is notnecessarily trained but gifted
or certainly called to do, thatyou'll refer them to the deacon.
I think that's important thatthe elders and ministers aren't
trying to take on too much,because the deacon's role is to
(12:53):
alleviate the burden ofconsidering the members'
physical needs and otherwisefinancial needs so they can
dedicate themselves more todirect gospel ministry.
So I will say also that I have,as a deacon, done some budget
counseling, a little bit ofcareer guidance when I can.
(13:14):
There's other things emergencysnow shoveling, things like that
.
I think as we're out doingthose things and taking the
initiative to do those thingsbeyond building maintenance and
taking offerings, that themembership will be more inclined
.
I had one member that I didsome budget counseling with.
(13:35):
That it helped him immenselyand so I believe he's been
sharing that experience withothers.
So you know, when it's notparticularly sensitive, our work
can be publicized, if you will,by the congregation, just
naturally.
Tim Hopper (13:49):
I think one thing for deacons to cultivate is
their reputation, and deaconsshould have within our church a
reputation of men who are wise,who are able to listen and slow
to speak, who are going to givethoughtful counsel, who know the
word and are able to share thatas they counsel folks.
But that should humble us andchallenge us, as me and John
(14:12):
serving as deacons and those whoare listening, that it's part
of our calling as office to beabove reproach and we should at
times be reflecting on.
Do we have within thatcongregation a reputation of
someone who, if a person's inneed and struggling, they're
going to want to come and talkto us?
And I think, if you can'tanswer that in the affirmative
or you know, ask your spouse oryour elders, your pastor, look
(14:35):
for areas that you may need togrow there, because I think that
impacts all of this discussionis having men that folks are
going to want to actually comeand talk to makes a big
difference.
Adrian Crum (14:44):
Yeah, on the character question, I was
looking at our OrthodoxPresbyterian Book of Church
Order, section 11, which is ondeacons, and it says those
chosen to this office should beof great faith, exemplary lives,
honest repute, brotherly love,warm sympathies and sound
judgment and I think those twothings that Tim was just
(15:04):
highlighting people are verywise and able to make a good
decision in tricky and kind ofcomplicated situations, but also
who have compassion for people.
I mean, I think a deacon withno compassion is sort of a
contradiction in terms, and sodeveloping that reputation, like
Tim was talking about, is soimportant.
John Stahl (15:20):
And sometimes that compassion has to be tempered
too.
But certainly deacon withoutcompassion, that doesn't really
make sense, does it yeah?
Adrian Crum (15:27):
The compassionate thing to do it can be, say no to
someone who's asking for acertain kind of help.
For sure, telling someone thetruth can often be a
compassionate thing to do, butwe also, like Tim said, we need
to be receptive to someonecoming to speak to us and be the
kind of men that people desireto seek counsel from.
John Stahl (15:43):
And so we are dealing with some character,
qualities and skills incommunication, both public
communication in larger groupsand also at the individual level
.
So some deacons you know theyalready have experience on the
(16:04):
public level and alsoministering to people at the
individual level.
Yet there's others,particularly ones, I think, that
are really good at doing fix-upthings.
I'm not, but I admire thosethat are good at that.
Yet they might be fearful orinexperienced with the people
(16:26):
side of things.
Even though they may becompassionate, they don't have
those speaking abilities.
How can we help these deacons?
What tools or helps can asession and diaconate use?
Tim Hopper (16:38):
In my own experience when I first became a deacon, I
was fortunate to serve with twoexperienced deacons and just to
get to really shadow them forquite some time and see how they
handled discussions andconversations.
I learned a lot from them andwas able to emulate them and
really shadow them until youknow, at some point you get a
(17:02):
discussion and they're not thereand you just have to jump in
and start doing it.
And I know not everyone's ableto be in that position where
you're able to serve withexperienced deacons, but that's
one of the biggest ways.
But I think, also having areasonable expectation, we have
our congregational meeting thisSunday and we'll have a deacon
presenting our deacon report.
(17:23):
That we do at those meetingsand not everybody on our
diaconate has interest in doingthat and I don't think there's
an obligation for everyone to dothat necessarily.
I mean, I think it's not arequirement for deacons to be
able to speak in front of people, but I think you know those who
struggle just in one-on-onediscussions or you know those
smaller type discussions need tothink about how to grow there
(17:47):
and you know, like I said,through watching others.
But also, again, you know ourdeacons need to grow in wisdom,
do they know the word and knowhow to share from the word to
others and do they have thatwisdom to share?
And then sometimes, beyond that, folks just need some
confidence and maybe they needjust encouragement from their
pastor.
Like, you actually do have alot to offer here, you don't?
You're maybe aren't going to bean all-star public speaker, but
(18:09):
you don't need to worry aboutthat.
Just share from your knowledgeand from the Word and from your
own experience and watch for thefruit to come out of that.
Adrian Crum (18:19):
Yeah, that's wonderful, don't have much to
add.
1 Timothy 3, verse 9, says theymust hold the mystery of the
faith with a clear conscience.
So, deacons, if you do desireto be a deacon in a church, you
should hold the gospel and holdthe Bible very, very confidently
, with a clear conscience.
Like it says, you do not needto be a professional orator
(18:42):
right, you're not being ordainedas a teacher or a preacher when
you're a deacon but you need tobe rooted in the Bible.
You need to hold withconfidence all of the scriptures
and then live that out.
And I think the example ofdeacons is very, very
significant too.
It says in 1 Timothy 3 thatthey must be husbands of one
(19:02):
wife and manage their childrenand their own households well.
And I think, as people in thecongregation watch someone
living their life in a waythat's worthy of being emulated,
like Tim was just talking aboutthey will also want to come and
ask for advice from someonelike that.
So I think being asked to giveadvice, even if you don't love
to talk, is a great waysuggesting may not always be the
(19:24):
deacon taking an initiative,but as a response to those
coming to him.
Tim Hopper (19:37):
I will promote a resource I think I've promoted
on the podcast before, but abook very influential on me was
the letters of John Newton.
John Newton, the author ofAmazing Grace, wrote many, many
letters that have been preservedand there are several editions.
I really like the hardcoverBanner of Truth edition.
But just his ability toempathize with people and care
(19:58):
for them and speak the truth tothem and apply the scriptures in
careful ways to people indifficult circumstances was very
helpful for me and it continuesto be helpful to me and I
encourage deacons to go pick upa copy of that and read through
it.
It's not a big narrative.
I took years to read through itfor the first time and you can
just slowly plod through it.
(20:19):
But I think there's a lot to belearned from John Newton that's
helpful for deacons.
John Stahl (20:24):
Might there be any other resources that are
available or used by either thedeacons or the session and for
training purposes or encouragingthe congregation, and even
encouraging the deaconsthemselves.
Tim Hopper (20:37):
Hopefully The Reformed Deacon Podcast.
That's what we're aspiring tohere and we have, I think, three
years of backlog now that folkscan go and listen to and a lot
of that content is going to belargely timeless.
But yeah, I think we'veproduced good resources.
Adrian Crum (20:56):
If someone wants to read a full book form version.
The best book that I have readabout the diaconate is by
Cornelis Van Dam.
The Deacon (21:01):
Biblical Foundations for Today's Ministry
of Mercy and he walks throughevery period of redemptive
history, so a ministry throughthe Old Testament.
The New Testament times talksabout the office of deacon in
the history of the church andthe current function of the
office, and one of the points hemakes in that book I was
looking at that before thispodcast today is that in the Old
(21:23):
Covenant there were noministers of mercy as official
deacons in that sense, and soall of the congregation of
Israel was expected to serve.
And I think that's a goodreminder as well that we don't
require or expect the deacons todo all of the mercy ministry in
a church.
John Stahl (21:41):
I think we had mentioned this before the
deacons are set apart toencourage others to do that and
certainly to be examples in that.
So there certainly is adefinite aspect of leadership in
that we're taking initiativeand ensuring that needs are
being met.
But as part of it is, you know,the people open up to those
(22:04):
that they have relationshipswith, and so often members have
relationships with others thataren't deacons, and so it's
important to encourage themembership to, when someone
approaches them with a diacon,lead as well.
They can give them counsel andhelp as they can.
But to encourage the membershipshould encourage one another to
(22:26):
go to the deacons.
So, Tim, you mentioned aboutthe use of the Reformed Deacon
podcast.
Are there any specific episodesthat might be helpful
specifically for a deacon inpursuing more of a counseling in
spiritual matters that may berelated certainly to the
physical or financial needs?
(22:46):
Sure, yeah, A few episodes, arecent one we did physical or
financial needs.
Tim Hopper (22:48):
Sure, yeah, a few episodes.
A recent one we did Finding theNext Deacon from February of
2025, the Heart of a Deacon fromSeptember of 2024, how the
Westminster Standards Relate toDeacons from April 2024, a Study
of Act 6 with Charles Biggs.
That's June 2023.
There's also not on the podcastbut on the CDM website a
lecture that Pastor Nick Wilborn, who's a PCA pastor, gave here
(23:08):
for the podcast but on the CDMwebsite, a lecture that Pastor
Nick Willborn, who's a PCApastor, gave here for the
Presbytery of the Southeast,called the Deacon has no Small
Office that you can listen to.
I'm sure there are others aswell, but we have again, I think
, some really good episodes inthe podcast history and
encourage folks to go back andcatch up on those if you haven't
on those?
John Stahl (23:34):
if you haven't, let's switch gears just a little
bit and think in terms of ourPresbytery Diaconal Committees.
How can the Presbytery DiaconalCommittees help individual
diaconates with this issue ofreally training, encouraging
congregation in what the deaconsdo?
I know sometimes we've heard inpresbyteries that committee may
(23:55):
not be particularly active butthen we have others.
Like in our presbytery, we dogive a committee report,
verbally or written, eachquarter to the presbytery.
Do you have any ideas there andhow the presbytery diaconal
committees might be able to helpwithin their presbytery?
Adrian Crum (24:17):
So for the Presbyterian Diaconal Committees
, I think they are one of theleast used resources in terms of
committees at different levels.
So we believe that the localchurch is where God serves his
people, both through the wordand through mercy, either out of
(24:41):
resources or just needs counsel, we do recommend that you,
after you've worked throughthings on a local level, you
raise that issue to yourpresbytery's diaconal committee.
Now, one reason that it can benot a very visible committee in
your presbytery is we tend tohave mostly deacons on that
committee and in the case of thediaconal committee of our
presbytery, as an example, for awhile we actually had only
deacons on that committee andthe minister's spot had not been
(25:03):
filled.
So I think it's just really,really necessary to remember
that a regional church, so thepresbytery, should come
alongside its local churches tosupport and encourage deacons,
and at times that can be just areally encouraging experience.
I do serve on the diaconalcommittee of our presbytery and
(25:23):
I just recently had a case wheresomeone reached out and I can
tell pretty quickly that theneed is not a financial or
physical need.
There's going to be just needsthat will require some care,
some prayer and diaconal carefor that congregation, and so
it's a really good resource todo that.
And then also at the GeneralAssembly level, there are times
(25:44):
when a matter can be brought upto our denominational committee.
John Stahl (25:48):
Tim, do you have any thoughts in that regard?
You are the moderator, Ibelieve, for yours.
Tim Hopper (25:54):
Yeah, the chairman for the Presbytery of the
Southeast Committee for a numberof years now and I've been
reflecting on this question.
I don't think I have any reallyprofound answers beyond what
Adrian shared, except that Ithink part of what I aspire to
do and have our committee do isand really what the CDM wants to
be doing is just encourage ourdeacons and as we're trying to
(26:15):
think about helping our localdeaconates serve our
congregations better, I thinksometimes just what they need is
encouragement and just tounderstand how much they have to
offer the congregation.
And so, you know, hopefullythrough our education not like
on the podcast again and throughthe National Diaconal Summit,
which we'll be hearing aboutmore soon it'll be coming up
next year, in 2026.
(26:36):
Hopefully we're encouraging ourdiaconates to take hold of what
they've been given in theirordination and the calling that
the Lord's given them to servetheir churches.
As Dr Willborn said in thisvideo from our Presbytery
Conference, the deacon is nosmall office and make sure our
deacons know that and I thinkyou know, as they can see, that
it's not to build them up andbuild up their ego, but to build
(26:57):
up the size of theirservanthood and their
willingness to lay down theirlives for the well-being of
their brothers and sisters inthe church and I think you know
we have a lot of churches in theOPC that have small diaconates
0, 1, 2 guys.
Those churches are the onesthat are most on my mind as a
presbytery diaconal committeemember, wanting to just be able
(27:18):
to encourage them and let themknow they're not alone and that
we're able to equip them andback them up as needed and
hopefully that reinvigoratesthem to go and use their gifts
for the sake of the congregation.
John Stahl (27:37):
So I don't know if we're accomplishing that as the
church, as a church leadership,can encourage others to come to
the deacons when they know whatthe deacon's role is and their
character, their desire to bethere for the members.
But we also know that peoplemay know what the deacons do but
(28:00):
they hold back out of a senseof being ashamed right, and that
happens a lot.
How can we reassure them?
So it's not just an educationalissue at this point ignorance,
but of being ashamed, thatthere's a fear of going to the
deacons.
Adrian Crum (28:19):
So people can fall into need because of their sin,
sometimes right.
So if someone is addicted togambling, they may end up coming
to the deacons for help with asin addiction.
But there are also many needsthat come not because of sin or
guilt, but they still produceshame.
So when a man loses his job,for instance, unfortunately we
(28:41):
often equate our identities withour job.
A man loses his job, there's anabundant amount of shame over
the fact that they're withoutemployment, and I think just
reassuring someone and saying,hey, in the Lord's providence,
this is what has happened, Ithink maybe taking more
initiative in those situations,likely deacons will have to take
the first step, because it isso shameful for someone to feel
(29:03):
like they are in a greatphysical need.
I think, even with guilt, though, even when, let's say, a
financial need has come on oneof our congregants because of a
sin issue in their life.
It's just good to remember thatPaul and Peter had massive sin
failings in their lives, thatPeter denied Christ three times
and that's recorded verypublicly in the Gospels, and he
(29:26):
comes back in the epistle ofPeter and speaks about the grace
of Christ toward him, and thenPaul testifies that it's a
trustworthy thing that Jesuscame into the world to save
sinners.
So I think pursuing people overand over again with the
reassurances of the gospel isnot only something that a pastor
needs to do from the pulpit,but deacons need to do as they
(29:49):
reassure people.
Nothing in our lives do we havebecause we deserve it or
because we merit it.
It's all because of the graceand the love of God and
hopefully that pushes backagainst some of the shame and
the guilt that people feelbefore coming to the deacons.
Tim Hopper (30:04):
I think there's another thing often, as people
have financial needs, just theirissues, that are often not
necessarily sin, but just theyrealize they've been unwise or
foolish with their money andsometimes people really need a
firm word about that.
But one thing I tell peopleevery time is look, none of our
deacons have just managed ourmoney perfectly and hopefully
(30:26):
we're setting examples.
We can all point to cars weshouldn't have bought or, you
know, I don't know, justdifferent decisions that were
not the right decision to make.
And yeah, I mean hopefully justhave that humility to let
people know you know you're notcoming to somebody who's just
done everything perfectly withtheir money, because I don't
think any of us can do that.
(30:47):
But I think also in the biggerpicture, something I've already
alluded to but about ourreputations within the church is
do we have a reputation ofsomeone who's just gonna, you
know, beat somebody over thehead when they come with a
concern?
Or do we have a reputation asdeacons, of someone who's going
to listen and help and providethe guidance and counsel and not
be afraid to speak up but beable to speak the truth in love
(31:11):
and be able to have whateverdiscussion needs to be had?
And many of us who serve asdeacons John, you're an
exception, I imagine, but manyof us don't just have a
reputation of just being afriendly, warm, bubbly, chatty
person and I think a lot of usare very action-focused and
we're there at church lookingfor what needs to be done,
(31:33):
always doing things, notsomebody necessarily who's just
going to go around and greeteverybody and just be the
warmest person in the room.
But at the same time we need toconsider the priority in our
role of serving the people inour church.
And one thing our deacons havedone over the last number of
(31:53):
years now it's been a multi-yeareffort is try to free the
deacons on Sundays from being sooverburdened by every different
responsibility that they don'thave time to just know the
people in the church and be ableto have conversations with
folks in the church.
So you know, trying to have ourdeacons not being the usher and
the security guy and the soundguy and you know you can end up
(32:15):
doing everything but insteadsharing the load on that within
the church and then just havingthe deacons able to just go know
people and foster thoserelationships.
As those relationships arefostered, it just makes those
diaconal discussions so mucheasier.
So there's work that can bedone ahead of time, before these
(32:36):
conversations that happen.
That can make them much better.
Adrian Crum (32:40):
I think one last thing on just reassuring people
who feel shame may just be toremember that deacons are
ambassadors or representativesof Christ.
If you think about the posturethat Christ had toward people in
need, even people who were very, very ashamed in different ways
, his heart towards them was tocorrect them at times, to
(33:02):
challenge them, but also to bevery, very merciful and to love
them.
And so I think, with the samehonoring that Christ had for
those who had different kinds ofsins and sufferings, and the
way that he forgave andchallenged and corrected and
loved and was merciful with them, again, the position that a
deacon is in as they receivesomeone in need is to set Christ
(33:24):
in front of that person.
John Stahl (33:27):
Yeah, I think that's a real good point and the
members should understand thatthe deacon is, like you said, an
ambassador, really not aminister of the gospel and not
in the official term, but aminister.
And if so, then you know, we goto the Lord Often knowing the
(33:49):
goodness of the Lord and Hisforgiveness.
We go to Him a lot sooner withour needs and prayer than we
would to another human being,another person especially, maybe
even within the church, andmore an official, an officer of
the church.
And so if they could understandthat that's the case, that if
(34:09):
we're ministering hopefully, asChrist would minister
imperfectly that they should beable to come to them and we
speak to ourselves that way too,as fellow deacons, you know,
going to one another, going toothers in the church and
confessing our faults.
So one last question we mayhave answered this, but how can
(34:31):
we make it known that deaconscan be a sort of sounding board,
somewhere to go for advice youknow there might not be a
specific need, but just to gofor counsel.
Don't want to always have allthe answers, but at least
there's somebody they know thatthey can go to.
Tim Hopper (34:50):
I think we've alluded to a lot of the answers
here, but again, having sessionmembers and the pastors
recognize these situations andsay, hey, you should go talk to
your deacons about this thedeacons building that reputation
and just have a history ofdoing this within the
congregation.
But at the same time with that,I think there's also there's a
humility reputation to be builtto that our deacons don't just
(35:11):
think we can solve everything orknow everything and know which
times we need to say I don'tknow, but maybe we can find
someone together who can helpyou and not just try to be
something he's not.
Adrian Crum (35:23):
Yeah, it does take humility to say I don't have an
answer for you.
Oftentimes the problems again,by the time that a problem comes
to a deacon, there can be somany different interrelated
marital issues or work issues orother tensions and different
relationships that have beencaused by the situation.
So I think it's like Tim justsaid, being able to say, wow,
(35:45):
that's really really difficultand painful.
I don't even know where tostart.
But let's pray and just takeone step at a time.
I think it's good to rememberif someone particularly has
experience as a deacon, when yougo to seek out counsel and
advice, you're getting all ofthe previous cases that that
person has thought throughhopefully kind of summarized for
(36:08):
you.
So they're not speaking to youas sort of the first time
they've ever thought about anissue, but they're actually
bringing the many, manydifferent situations that
they've thought about in thepast and then offering you their
counsel.
So they're hopefully notrequiring something of you but,
as we've said already, it's awisdom question oftentimes and
someone taking all of thosedifferent situations that
they've been engaged with in thepast in the church and offering
(36:29):
you a possible decision can bereally beneficial.
John Stahl (36:33):
Yeah, the deacon's job, really any kind of
minister's job we do need totrust the Lord to keep us humble
, and yet we need to trust theLord to be confident in His Word
and what we're called to do, sothere's that balance that only
the Lord can accomplish in ourlives.
Well, this was a really goodconversation.
(36:54):
I appreciate, Tim and Adrianboth of you and your work on our
committee together, but also inyour individual churches, and
having this discussion, I hopewill be a blessing to the other
deacons and even members as theylisten to this podcast.
David Nakhla (37:10):
Thank you, john Thanks.
Adrian Crum (37:11):
John.
David Nakhla (37:11):
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our website,thereformdeaconorg.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again for another episode of theReformed Deacon Podcast.
Deacons just in conversations we have with folks
in the church can takeopportunities that we get to
educate people about what thediaconate does.
A lot of Reformed churches wehave folks that come from a
variety of backgrounds, whethernew believers or from different
types of churches, where adeacon might mean or be a
different thing.
We should be ready to explainwhat we do and how we fit in the
(00:20):
church.
David Nakhla (00:21):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
John Stahl (00:41):
Hello, my name is John Stahl.
I'm a deacon at Imanuel OPC inWilmington, delaware.
Today I'm joined by Adrian Crum, associate Pastor of Youth and
Evangelism at Harvest OPC inWyoming, Michigan, and Tim
Hopper, a deacon at Shiloh OPCin Raleigh, North Carolina.
We serve together on the OPCCommittee on Diaconal Ministries
(01:04):
.
Today Adrian, Tim and I will behaving a conversation, tossing
around some ideas on how deaconscan help their church
understand what a deacon can dofor them.
So I think we'd agree that mostknow what Act 6 says about the
role of a deacon serving thewidows and needy of the church
(01:25):
so the elders can devotethemselves to the ministry of
the word and prayer.
But what does that look like intoday's world, where we also
have buildings and budgets tocontend with?
This topic arose from thisanecdotal situation.
Someone in a church had aserious health need, but didn't
even think to approach thedeacons.
(01:46):
When this scenario wasdiscussed, we wondered if it
might be more common than we hadimagined.
So the question is why wouldthis be and how can we attempt
to fix it?
How do we let people know thatdeacons do more than building
maintenance and offerings,though that deacons do more than
(02:07):
building maintenance andofferings?
So I'd like to start withdiscussing how the deacons and
elders might make it abundantlyclear to the congregation that
the deacons are there to servethe people.
How can we communicate thisbetter?
Tim Hopper (02:16):
In my own experience , the most formal way that we've
done this for our congregationis at our annual congregational
meeting and sometimes we have asecond congregational meeting
during the year.
We'll give a deacon report andshare some high level
information on just theactivities of the diaconate and
our diaconal fund and we usuallywill take an opportunity there
(02:38):
to try to impress on people whatwe're here for and let them
know we're here to serve andthat we try to discover and seek
out ways in which we can servefolks.
But sometimes we just don'tknow and we need folks to come
to us and really try to get thatmessage across with hopes that
people will hear it byrepetition and also people will
(03:00):
hear it and then pass that alongto others.
Because you know, sometimessomeone in the church will be
having a discussion with anotherperson and it's really helpful
if that other person says youknow you need to go talk to the
deacons about this.
Adrian Crum (03:11):
I think it's very easy to reduce what a deacon
does to kind of having acheckbook.
Like if I need help, then Ineed to go to the deacons and
ask for money.
And I'm going to wait until thevery, very last minute, when
things are really, reallyserious and I'm at the edge of
(03:31):
getting foreclosed on my home ordefaulting on some other kind
of loan, to then ask fordiaconal help.
And the reality is what theBible teaches a deacon must be
is a list of character qualities.
I was very struck by that as Iwas reading the character
qualities of 1 Timothy, chapter3.
It actually doesn't tell usexactly all the roles of a
(03:54):
deacon.
The Bible tells us there was asituation in Acts 6 that
required the help of deacons,but we need men who have good
judgment, who do not want toserve themselves, according to 1
Timothy 3.
And then the field isrelatively wide in terms of what
a deacon is called to do forpeople.
So I always encourage people inour church if you don't know
(04:14):
what to do in a situation, askone of your deacons if they need
to give you some sort of wisecounsel in many, many different
areas of life, not onlyfinancial but other aspects of
their life.
I think it's very, very helpfulfor men who have been
consistently praying for people,tracking people, giving them
different kinds of advice to goto a deacon for that kind of
help.
John Stahl (04:33):
So, Adrian, you're suggesting that the best way to
do this is others to refer theirfellow members to the deacons
or the members to actually go tothe deacons.
And, Tim, you were talking moreon the lines of a large group
instruction during the annualmeetings.
Tim Hopper (04:53):
I think also deacons just in conversations we have
with folks in the church cantake opportunities that we get
to educate people about what thediaconate does.
And there are a lot of ourchurches now, a lot of Reformed
churches.
We have folks that come from avariety of backgrounds, whether
new believers or from differenttypes of churches, where a
deacon might mean or be adifferent thing, and it's just.
(05:15):
You know, as we have thoseopportunities, we should be
ready to explain what we do andhow we fit in the church.
John Stahl (05:23):
Have either of you had the opportunity, or has the
minister, the one who does newmembership classes?
Do you make sure that the roleof deacon is presented there?
I'm not sure that we do.
Adrian Crum (05:37):
I have never seen the diaconate described in a new
membership class, so I thinkthat's a wonderful idea.
I think, unfortunately, the waythat most people understand
what deacons are is justobserving deacons at their job
in the different churches thatthey've been at, and
unfortunately that is oftenrestricted to things like making
(05:57):
decisions about whether or notto expand a building or fix a
building.
I think it's helpful to teachat different ways in membership
classes and in other contexts,what deacons do.
Tim Hopper (06:07):
Yeah, I think it'd be interesting too and I
actually don't know how ourpastors handle it either, but
it'd be great for whoever'steaching the membership class to
pull in a deacon and have themtalk to the class for 15 minutes
.
I think that'd be a wonderfulthing, yeah.
John Stahl (06:21):
At our church we, just within the last year, we've
tried to have the deacons do anannouncement actually before or
during monthly fellowship meal,just to tell them what we're
involved with some of the thingsthat we're doing, and so that's
an opportunity as well.
So you've brought up the pointabout people coming from
(06:45):
different backgrounds, different, even different reform
congregations where the deaconsdo different things.
Everyone has their own idea ofwhat a deacon does, and I'm sure
within the three churchesrepresented here, the deacons do
various things, have variousresponsibilities, do different
services that may be unlike theother two, but why do you think
(07:09):
that it's become the case thatmany people think of deacons as
taking care of the building andthe offering, but no more than
that?
Adrian Crum (07:16):
I think unfortunately tend to want to
reduce our job just generallyI'll speak as a pastor before I
speak about deacons we tend towant to reduce our job to the
predictable rhythms of tasksthat I can kind of check off the
list.
So I have to write a sermonthis week.
I'll check that off the list.
I have to prepare a bulletinthen also check that off the
list.
So I think deacons can thentend to restrict their jobs to
(07:39):
specific tasks that they cancheck off the list.
Right, you need the offering tobe counted.
I can.
That's a very objective thing.
I can then check off the list.
People are more messy and theytake a lot of time and, honestly
, if we could have 10 hours ofdiscipleship with someone for
every one hour that we dedicateto answering the question, how
much money should we give tothem, I think that would be very
(08:00):
, very worthwhile.
But we are all restricted inhow much time we have as
officers in the church, and so Ithink that ends up being
usually the restriction that wehave how much time can we give
to a situation and how can wededicate the right kind of work
to it?
But I do think oftentimesprayer and good judgment and
good counsel is what a lot ofsituations require.
Tim Hopper (08:21):
There's also just the practical aspect that the
facilities work or things alongthose financial work are things
that we can talk about and thatpeople see, whereas you know a
lot of more quote.
You know, diaconal needs arethings that we're going to be
much more discreet about forgood reason.
That's not necessarily a badthing, it's just the reality of
the situation and so that justputs the onus on us to do more
(08:45):
education there.
But it's it's not necessarily abad thing that people see you,
you know, fixing the toiletbefore the service and so they
think, well, deacons fix thetoilet before the service.
Well, that's great that they.
I think that's a good thing fora deacon to be doing potentially
, and it's good for people tosee deacons just willing to hop
up and serve.
But we can't just go publicizeoh, we, you know, we talked to
(09:06):
this widow for two hours afterthe service about this need,
right?
So it becomes an opportunityjust for us again to educate the
congregation.
One thing we've started sharingin our diaconal reports one of
the other deacons has starteddoing those reports and just
sharing for each year inaggregate how many households or
people within the congregationthat we've helped.
(09:27):
Not any specifics, but we'vehelped eight different families,
or something to that effect,with the goal of sharing a
little bit without breakinganyone's privacy, and let people
know that that we are doingthose things, cause it is very
difficult to share any level ofdetail there.
John Stahl (09:45):
Yeah, that's a good point.
I actually never consideredthat.
Totaling up and reporting thatwe may do that for offerings but
not for people, and that does.
I think that's a good idea.
I don't know whether it's truemuch in reform circles, but you
know, I pretty much grew up inan evangelical environment and
(10:06):
you know there was always thejoke that well, the preacher, he
has an easy job, he justpreaches on Sunday morning,
right, but that's his publicposition, that's his public role
.
But how many hours are spent inpreparing that, as well as
counseling and otheradministrative details and
(10:27):
ministering evangelism.
Whatever the minister does andyou know the minister, the
elders need to toot theminister's horn a little bit for
his benefit and the congregantsand similarly for us as deacons
.
Are there any other ideas thatyou may have to alleviate this
(10:47):
issue where the congregation,the members, don't really
understand what the deacons door all that they do?
Tim Hopper (10:55):
I mean, there's the obvious.
When the opportunity arises inpreaching to talk about the
diaconate, it's a goodopportunity for the minister to
educate the congregation.
But there are potentiallyopportunities for Sunday school.
You know, churches often aroundthe time of officer nominations
might do a short Sunday schoolseries on the offices, which I
think is a really helpful idea.
But you know, I think we justreally ultimately, whatever
(11:18):
approach we choose, you have tobe persistent and steady.
For many of us, ourcongregations have a lot of new
faces over time and they're justalways new folks or children
who are growing up in thecongregation that need to be
educated about it and you justreally have to, I think, just do
the slow drip of this over timeand shape people's perspective
(11:40):
and understanding.
Adrian Crum (11:41):
I think it's helpful also to realize that to
pick up the phone and call adeacon is just daunting
sometimes.
And so I think to ask at timespeople who are struggling to
know, should I even reach out tomy deacon or not?
Is my need big enough, whetherit's financial or other kind of
spiritual care?
And I think I ask sometimespeople is it okay if I call a
(12:02):
deacon for you and they reachback to you and I'll just
explain a little bit what'sgoing on and they can talk to
you?
And I think that can be ahelpful way to refer people
together, because I think thebest way to know what a deacon
does is to actually speak with adeacon about something and get
to benefit from their wisdom andtheir experience.
And oftentimes it's not asscary as it seems to reach out
and ask for help.
So if they call you and kind ofpray for you and walk you
(12:24):
through the situation, you seehow beneficial and practical the
help of the deacon really is.
John Stahl (12:29):
And like what you said, Adrian, about, if somebody
comes to you and you realize,oh, this is a diaconal issue,
something that a deacon is notnecessarily trained but gifted
or certainly called to do, thatyou'll refer them to the deacon.
I think that's important thatthe elders and ministers aren't
trying to take on too much,because the deacon's role is to
(12:53):
alleviate the burden ofconsidering the members'
physical needs and otherwisefinancial needs so they can
dedicate themselves more todirect gospel ministry.
So I will say also that I have,as a deacon, done some budget
counseling, a little bit ofcareer guidance when I can.
(13:14):
There's other things emergencysnow shoveling, things like that
.
I think as we're out doingthose things and taking the
initiative to do those thingsbeyond building maintenance and
taking offerings, that themembership will be more inclined
.
I had one member that I didsome budget counseling with.
(13:35):
That it helped him immenselyand so I believe he's been
sharing that experience withothers.
So you know, when it's notparticularly sensitive, our work
can be publicized, if you will,by the congregation, just
naturally.
Tim Hopper (13:49):
I think one thing for deacons to cultivate is
their reputation, and deaconsshould have within our church a
reputation of men who are wise,who are able to listen and slow
to speak, who are going to givethoughtful counsel, who know the
word and are able to share thatas they counsel folks.
But that should humble us andchallenge us, as me and John
(14:12):
serving as deacons and those whoare listening, that it's part
of our calling as office to beabove reproach and we should at
times be reflecting on.
Do we have within thatcongregation a reputation of
someone who, if a person's inneed and struggling, they're
going to want to come and talkto us?
And I think, if you can'tanswer that in the affirmative
or you know, ask your spouse oryour elders, your pastor, look
(14:35):
for areas that you may need togrow there, because I think that
impacts all of this discussionis having men that folks are
going to want to actually comeand talk to makes a big
difference.
Adrian Crum (14:44):
Yeah, on the character question, I was
looking at our OrthodoxPresbyterian Book of Church
Order, section 11, which is ondeacons, and it says those
chosen to this office should beof great faith, exemplary lives,
honest repute, brotherly love,warm sympathies and sound
judgment and I think those twothings that Tim was just
(15:04):
highlighting people are verywise and able to make a good
decision in tricky and kind ofcomplicated situations, but also
who have compassion for people.
I mean, I think a deacon withno compassion is sort of a
contradiction in terms, and sodeveloping that reputation, like
Tim was talking about, is soimportant.
John Stahl (15:20):
And sometimes that compassion has to be tempered
too.
But certainly deacon withoutcompassion, that doesn't really
make sense, does it yeah?
Adrian Crum (15:27):
The compassionate thing to do it can be, say no to
someone who's asking for acertain kind of help.
For sure, telling someone thetruth can often be a
compassionate thing to do, butwe also, like Tim said, we need
to be receptive to someonecoming to speak to us and be the
kind of men that people desireto seek counsel from.
John Stahl (15:43):
And so we are dealing with some character,
qualities and skills incommunication, both public
communication in larger groupsand also at the individual level
.
So some deacons you know theyalready have experience on the
(16:04):
public level and alsoministering to people at the
individual level.
Yet there's others,particularly ones, I think, that
are really good at doing fix-upthings.
I'm not, but I admire thosethat are good at that.
Yet they might be fearful orinexperienced with the people
(16:26):
side of things.
Even though they may becompassionate, they don't have
those speaking abilities.
How can we help these deacons?
What tools or helps can asession and diaconate use?
Tim Hopper (16:38):
In my own experience when I first became a deacon, I
was fortunate to serve with twoexperienced deacons and just to
get to really shadow them forquite some time and see how they
handled discussions andconversations.
I learned a lot from them andwas able to emulate them and
really shadow them until youknow, at some point you get a
(17:02):
discussion and they're not thereand you just have to jump in
and start doing it.
And I know not everyone's ableto be in that position where
you're able to serve withexperienced deacons, but that's
one of the biggest ways.
But I think, also having areasonable expectation, we have
our congregational meeting thisSunday and we'll have a deacon
presenting our deacon report.
(17:23):
That we do at those meetingsand not everybody on our
diaconate has interest in doingthat and I don't think there's
an obligation for everyone to dothat necessarily.
I mean, I think it's not arequirement for deacons to be
able to speak in front of people, but I think you know those who
struggle just in one-on-onediscussions or you know those
smaller type discussions need tothink about how to grow there
(17:47):
and you know, like I said,through watching others.
But also, again, you know ourdeacons need to grow in wisdom,
do they know the word and knowhow to share from the word to
others and do they have thatwisdom to share?
And then sometimes, beyond that, folks just need some
confidence and maybe they needjust encouragement from their
pastor.
Like, you actually do have alot to offer here, you don't?
You're maybe aren't going to bean all-star public speaker, but
(18:09):
you don't need to worry aboutthat.
Just share from your knowledgeand from the Word and from your
own experience and watch for thefruit to come out of that.
Adrian Crum (18:19):
Yeah, that's wonderful, don't have much to
add.
1 Timothy 3, verse 9, says theymust hold the mystery of the
faith with a clear conscience.
So, deacons, if you do desireto be a deacon in a church, you
should hold the gospel and holdthe Bible very, very confidently
, with a clear conscience.
Like it says, you do not needto be a professional orator
(18:42):
right, you're not being ordainedas a teacher or a preacher when
you're a deacon but you need tobe rooted in the Bible.
You need to hold withconfidence all of the scriptures
and then live that out.
And I think the example ofdeacons is very, very
significant too.
It says in 1 Timothy 3 thatthey must be husbands of one
(19:02):
wife and manage their childrenand their own households well.
And I think, as people in thecongregation watch someone
living their life in a waythat's worthy of being emulated,
like Tim was just talking aboutthey will also want to come and
ask for advice from someonelike that.
So I think being asked to giveadvice, even if you don't love
to talk, is a great waysuggesting may not always be the
(19:24):
deacon taking an initiative,but as a response to those
coming to him.
Tim Hopper (19:37):
I will promote a resource I think I've promoted
on the podcast before, but abook very influential on me was
the letters of John Newton.
John Newton, the author ofAmazing Grace, wrote many, many
letters that have been preservedand there are several editions.
I really like the hardcoverBanner of Truth edition.
But just his ability toempathize with people and care
(19:58):
for them and speak the truth tothem and apply the scriptures in
careful ways to people indifficult circumstances was very
helpful for me and it continuesto be helpful to me and I
encourage deacons to go pick upa copy of that and read through
it.
It's not a big narrative.
I took years to read through itfor the first time and you can
just slowly plod through it.
(20:19):
But I think there's a lot to belearned from John Newton that's
helpful for deacons.
John Stahl (20:24):
Might there be any other resources that are
available or used by either thedeacons or the session and for
training purposes or encouragingthe congregation, and even
encouraging the deaconsthemselves.
Tim Hopper (20:37):
Hopefully The Reformed Deacon Podcast.
That's what we're aspiring tohere and we have, I think, three
years of backlog now that folkscan go and listen to and a lot
of that content is going to belargely timeless.
But yeah, I think we'veproduced good resources.
Adrian Crum (20:56):
If someone wants to read a full book form version.
The best book that I have readabout the diaconate is by
Cornelis Van Dam.
The Deacon (21:01):
Biblical Foundations for Today's Ministry
of Mercy and he walks throughevery period of redemptive
history, so a ministry throughthe Old Testament.
The New Testament times talksabout the office of deacon in
the history of the church andthe current function of the
office, and one of the points hemakes in that book I was
looking at that before thispodcast today is that in the Old
(21:23):
Covenant there were noministers of mercy as official
deacons in that sense, and soall of the congregation of
Israel was expected to serve.
And I think that's a goodreminder as well that we don't
require or expect the deacons todo all of the mercy ministry in
a church.
John Stahl (21:41):
I think we had mentioned this before the
deacons are set apart toencourage others to do that and
certainly to be examples in that.
So there certainly is adefinite aspect of leadership in
that we're taking initiativeand ensuring that needs are
being met.
But as part of it is, you know,the people open up to those
(22:04):
that they have relationshipswith, and so often members have
relationships with others thataren't deacons, and so it's
important to encourage themembership to, when someone
approaches them with a diacon,lead as well.
They can give them counsel andhelp as they can.
But to encourage the membershipshould encourage one another to
(22:26):
go to the deacons.
So, Tim, you mentioned aboutthe use of the Reformed Deacon
podcast.
Are there any specific episodesthat might be helpful
specifically for a deacon inpursuing more of a counseling in
spiritual matters that may berelated certainly to the
physical or financial needs?
(22:46):
Sure, yeah, A few episodes, arecent one we did physical or
financial needs.
Tim Hopper (22:48):
Sure, yeah, a few episodes.
A recent one we did Finding theNext Deacon from February of
2025, the Heart of a Deacon fromSeptember of 2024, how the
Westminster Standards Relate toDeacons from April 2024, a Study
of Act 6 with Charles Biggs.
That's June 2023.
There's also not on the podcastbut on the CDM website a
lecture that Pastor Nick Wilborn, who's a PCA pastor, gave here
(23:08):
for the podcast but on the CDMwebsite, a lecture that Pastor
Nick Willborn, who's a PCApastor, gave here for the
Presbytery of the Southeast,called the Deacon has no Small
Office that you can listen to.
I'm sure there are others aswell, but we have again, I think
, some really good episodes inthe podcast history and
encourage folks to go back andcatch up on those if you haven't
on those?
John Stahl (23:34):
if you haven't, let's switch gears just a little
bit and think in terms of ourPresbytery Diaconal Committees.
How can the Presbytery DiaconalCommittees help individual
diaconates with this issue ofreally training, encouraging
congregation in what the deaconsdo?
I know sometimes we've heard inpresbyteries that committee may
(23:55):
not be particularly active butthen we have others.
Like in our presbytery, we dogive a committee report,
verbally or written, eachquarter to the presbytery.
Do you have any ideas there andhow the presbytery diaconal
committees might be able to helpwithin their presbytery?
Adrian Crum (24:17):
So for the Presbyterian Diaconal Committees
, I think they are one of theleast used resources in terms of
committees at different levels.
So we believe that the localchurch is where God serves his
people, both through the wordand through mercy, either out of
(24:41):
resources or just needs counsel, we do recommend that you,
after you've worked throughthings on a local level, you
raise that issue to yourpresbytery's diaconal committee.
Now, one reason that it can benot a very visible committee in
your presbytery is we tend tohave mostly deacons on that
committee and in the case of thediaconal committee of our
presbytery, as an example, for awhile we actually had only
deacons on that committee andthe minister's spot had not been
(25:03):
filled.
So I think it's just really,really necessary to remember
that a regional church, so thepresbytery, should come
alongside its local churches tosupport and encourage deacons,
and at times that can be just areally encouraging experience.
I do serve on the diaconalcommittee of our presbytery and
(25:23):
I just recently had a case wheresomeone reached out and I can
tell pretty quickly that theneed is not a financial or
physical need.
There's going to be just needsthat will require some care,
some prayer and diaconal carefor that congregation, and so
it's a really good resource todo that.
And then also at the GeneralAssembly level, there are times
(25:44):
when a matter can be brought upto our denominational committee.
John Stahl (25:48):
Tim, do you have any thoughts in that regard?
You are the moderator, Ibelieve, for yours.
Tim Hopper (25:54):
Yeah, the chairman for the Presbytery of the
Southeast Committee for a numberof years now and I've been
reflecting on this question.
I don't think I have any reallyprofound answers beyond what
Adrian shared, except that Ithink part of what I aspire to
do and have our committee do isand really what the CDM wants to
be doing is just encourage ourdeacons and as we're trying to
(26:15):
think about helping our localdeaconates serve our
congregations better, I thinksometimes just what they need is
encouragement and just tounderstand how much they have to
offer the congregation.
And so, you know, hopefullythrough our education not like
on the podcast again and throughthe National Diaconal Summit,
which we'll be hearing aboutmore soon it'll be coming up
next year, in 2026.
(26:36):
Hopefully we're encouraging ourdiaconates to take hold of what
they've been given in theirordination and the calling that
the Lord's given them to servetheir churches.
As Dr Willborn said in thisvideo from our Presbytery
Conference, the deacon is nosmall office and make sure our
deacons know that and I thinkyou know, as they can see, that
it's not to build them up andbuild up their ego, but to build
(26:57):
up the size of theirservanthood and their
willingness to lay down theirlives for the well-being of
their brothers and sisters inthe church and I think you know
we have a lot of churches in theOPC that have small diaconates
0, 1, 2 guys.
Those churches are the onesthat are most on my mind as a
presbytery diaconal committeemember, wanting to just be able
(27:18):
to encourage them and let themknow they're not alone and that
we're able to equip them andback them up as needed and
hopefully that reinvigoratesthem to go and use their gifts
for the sake of the congregation.
John Stahl (27:37):
So I don't know if we're accomplishing that as the
church, as a church leadership,can encourage others to come to
the deacons when they know whatthe deacon's role is and their
character, their desire to bethere for the members.
But we also know that peoplemay know what the deacons do but
(28:00):
they hold back out of a senseof being ashamed right, and that
happens a lot.
How can we reassure them?
So it's not just an educationalissue at this point ignorance,
but of being ashamed, thatthere's a fear of going to the
deacons.
Adrian Crum (28:19):
So people can fall into need because of their sin,
sometimes right.
So if someone is addicted togambling, they may end up coming
to the deacons for help with asin addiction.
But there are also many needsthat come not because of sin or
guilt, but they still produceshame.
So when a man loses his job,for instance, unfortunately we
(28:41):
often equate our identities withour job.
A man loses his job, there's anabundant amount of shame over
the fact that they're withoutemployment, and I think just
reassuring someone and saying,hey, in the Lord's providence,
this is what has happened, Ithink maybe taking more
initiative in those situations,likely deacons will have to take
the first step, because it isso shameful for someone to feel
(29:03):
like they are in a greatphysical need.
I think, even with guilt, though, even when, let's say, a
financial need has come on oneof our congregants because of a
sin issue in their life.
It's just good to remember thatPaul and Peter had massive sin
failings in their lives, thatPeter denied Christ three times
and that's recorded verypublicly in the Gospels, and he
(29:26):
comes back in the epistle ofPeter and speaks about the grace
of Christ toward him, and thenPaul testifies that it's a
trustworthy thing that Jesuscame into the world to save
sinners.
So I think pursuing people overand over again with the
reassurances of the gospel isnot only something that a pastor
needs to do from the pulpit,but deacons need to do as they
(29:49):
reassure people.
Nothing in our lives do we havebecause we deserve it or
because we merit it.
It's all because of the graceand the love of God and
hopefully that pushes backagainst some of the shame and
the guilt that people feelbefore coming to the deacons.
Tim Hopper (30:04):
I think there's another thing often, as people
have financial needs, just theirissues, that are often not
necessarily sin, but just theyrealize they've been unwise or
foolish with their money andsometimes people really need a
firm word about that.
But one thing I tell peopleevery time is look, none of our
deacons have just managed ourmoney perfectly and hopefully
(30:26):
we're setting examples.
We can all point to cars weshouldn't have bought or, you
know, I don't know, justdifferent decisions that were
not the right decision to make.
And yeah, I mean hopefully justhave that humility to let
people know you know you're notcoming to somebody who's just
done everything perfectly withtheir money, because I don't
think any of us can do that.
(30:47):
But I think also in the biggerpicture, something I've already
alluded to but about ourreputations within the church is
do we have a reputation ofsomeone who's just gonna, you
know, beat somebody over thehead when they come with a
concern?
Or do we have a reputation asdeacons, of someone who's going
to listen and help and providethe guidance and counsel and not
be afraid to speak up but beable to speak the truth in love
(31:11):
and be able to have whateverdiscussion needs to be had?
And many of us who serve asdeacons John, you're an
exception, I imagine, but manyof us don't just have a
reputation of just being afriendly, warm, bubbly, chatty
person and I think a lot of usare very action-focused and
we're there at church lookingfor what needs to be done,
(31:33):
always doing things, notsomebody necessarily who's just
going to go around and greeteverybody and just be the
warmest person in the room.
But at the same time we need toconsider the priority in our
role of serving the people inour church.
And one thing our deacons havedone over the last number of
(31:53):
years now it's been a multi-yeareffort is try to free the
deacons on Sundays from being sooverburdened by every different
responsibility that they don'thave time to just know the
people in the church and be ableto have conversations with
folks in the church.
So you know, trying to have ourdeacons not being the usher and
the security guy and the soundguy and you know you can end up
(32:15):
doing everything but insteadsharing the load on that within
the church and then just havingthe deacons able to just go know
people and foster thoserelationships.
As those relationships arefostered, it just makes those
diaconal discussions so mucheasier.
So there's work that can bedone ahead of time, before these
(32:36):
conversations that happen.
That can make them much better.
Adrian Crum (32:40):
I think one last thing on just reassuring people
who feel shame may just be toremember that deacons are
ambassadors or representativesof Christ.
If you think about the posturethat Christ had toward people in
need, even people who were very, very ashamed in different ways
, his heart towards them was tocorrect them at times, to
(33:02):
challenge them, but also to bevery, very merciful and to love
them.
And so I think, with the samehonoring that Christ had for
those who had different kinds ofsins and sufferings, and the
way that he forgave andchallenged and corrected and
loved and was merciful with them, again, the position that a
deacon is in as they receivesomeone in need is to set Christ
(33:24):
in front of that person.
John Stahl (33:27):
Yeah, I think that's a real good point and the
members should understand thatthe deacon is, like you said, an
ambassador, really not aminister of the gospel and not
in the official term, but aminister.
And if so, then you know, we goto the Lord Often knowing the
(33:49):
goodness of the Lord and Hisforgiveness.
We go to Him a lot sooner withour needs and prayer than we
would to another human being,another person especially, maybe
even within the church, andmore an official, an officer of
the church.
And so if they could understandthat that's the case, that if
(34:09):
we're ministering hopefully, asChrist would minister
imperfectly that they should beable to come to them and we
speak to ourselves that way too,as fellow deacons, you know,
going to one another, going toothers in the church and
confessing our faults.
So one last question we mayhave answered this, but how can
(34:31):
we make it known that deaconscan be a sort of sounding board,
somewhere to go for advice youknow there might not be a
specific need, but just to gofor counsel.
Don't want to always have allthe answers, but at least
there's somebody they know thatthey can go to.
Tim Hopper (34:50):
I think we've alluded to a lot of the answers
here, but again, having sessionmembers and the pastors
recognize these situations andsay, hey, you should go talk to
your deacons about this thedeacons building that reputation
and just have a history ofdoing this within the
congregation.
But at the same time with that,I think there's also there's a
humility reputation to be builtto that our deacons don't just
(35:11):
think we can solve everything orknow everything and know which
times we need to say I don'tknow, but maybe we can find
someone together who can helpyou and not just try to be
something he's not.
Adrian Crum (35:23):
Yeah, it does take humility to say I don't have an
answer for you.
Oftentimes the problems again,by the time that a problem comes
to a deacon, there can be somany different interrelated
marital issues or work issues orother tensions and different
relationships that have beencaused by the situation.
So I think it's like Tim justsaid, being able to say, wow,
(35:45):
that's really really difficultand painful.
I don't even know where tostart.
But let's pray and just takeone step at a time.
I think it's good to rememberif someone particularly has
experience as a deacon, when yougo to seek out counsel and
advice, you're getting all ofthe previous cases that that
person has thought throughhopefully kind of summarized for
(36:08):
you.
So they're not speaking to youas sort of the first time
they've ever thought about anissue, but they're actually
bringing the many, manydifferent situations that
they've thought about in thepast and then offering you their
counsel.
So they're hopefully notrequiring something of you but,
as we've said already, it's awisdom question oftentimes and
someone taking all of thosedifferent situations that
they've been engaged with in thepast in the church and offering
(36:29):
you a possible decision can bereally beneficial.
John Stahl (36:33):
Yeah, the deacon's job, really any kind of
minister's job we do need totrust the Lord to keep us humble
, and yet we need to trust theLord to be confident in His Word
and what we're called to do, sothere's that balance that only
the Lord can accomplish in ourlives.
Well, this was a really goodconversation.
(36:54):
I appreciate, Tim and Adrianboth of you and your work on our
committee together, but also inyour individual churches, and
having this discussion, I hopewill be a blessing to the other
deacons and even members as theylisten to this podcast.
David Nakhla (37:10):
Thank you, john Thanks.
Adrian Crum (37:11):
John.
David Nakhla (37:11):
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our website,thereformdeaconorg.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again for another episode of theReformed Deacon Podcast.
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