November 1, 2024 • 45 mins
It's the start of season 4!
In this episode, pastor Chris Cashen, Trinity Reformed OPC, Lanham, MD and deacon Tim Hopper, Shiloh OPC, Raleigh, NC, propose and discuss some different ways for deacons to care for their pastors. From forming friendships, to periodic check-ins, to helping them wade through the complicated maze of choosing an home, car, insurance plan and completing taxes, Tim and Chris see many opportunities for serving the pastor and allowing them to be able to focus on the care of the congregation through the Word and preaching. Deacons can alleviate the loneliness often felt by pastors and their families by strengthening the pastor-deacon relationship, encouraging the women of the church to befriend the pastor's wife—all which can lead to promoting unity within the church. Join us as we explore meaningful ways deacons can be a blessing to their pastors, all while growing together in Christ.
Referenced in this episode:
OPC Committee on Ministerial Care's website
Pastor Retreat information (found on the CMC website)
Healthcare.gov
OPC Insurance Benefits
You can find all of our episodes at thereformeddeacon.org. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for giveaways and more information. Find other resources on OPCCDM.org. Make sure to send us some feedback on your podcast player or ask a diaconal question by going to OPCCDM.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, this is Tim Hopper from the OPC Committee on
Diaconal Ministries and theReformed Deacon Podcast.
It's hard to believe that thismonth it's been three years
since the OPC Committee onDiaconal Ministries debuted the
Reformed Deacon Podcast.
The committee has been blessedby it and we hope that you have
been too.
It may be encouraged andinspired to think about the
diaconate in new ways.
We know how much responsibilityyou carry as a local deacon and
(00:23):
we want you to feel supportedin your work through this
podcast.
If you've listened since thebeginning, you know we've
covered a lot of ground.
In our 62 episodes.
We've chatted with authors,explored real-life cases,
examined the doctrinalfoundations of the diaconate and
heard from many experiencedpastors, elders and deacons all
related to the role of the localdeacon.
If you haven't listened to allof them, be sure to go back and
(00:45):
catch up.
The list of future diaconaltopics seems endless and we're
excited for year four and beyond.
We'd love to hear from you Ifyou have comments, topic ideas
or questions.
Drop a quick message to mail atthereformeddeaconorg and you'll
receive a high-quality theReformed Deacon t-shirt.
Be sure to follow us on yourfavorite podcast player so
you'll never miss an episode,and feel free to like and share
(01:09):
with other deacons who you thinkmight benefit for even more
resources.
Check out the CDM's website,opcdmorg.
Thanks for listening.
I think as just an overarchingaspect of this whole discussion
is the opportunity for thedeacon to just be a friend of
(01:29):
the pastor and just know him andthose relationships can differ.
You know, maybe sometimes youand your pastor have the same
hobbies, sometimes not, and itcan be very different in a lot
of ways.
But an opportunity for thedeacon to just know the pastor
and be a friend to him and tohis wife, welcome to the
Reformed Deacon, a casualconversation with topics
(01:50):
specifically designed to helplocal Reformed deacons.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC
alone, so let's take thisopportunity to learn from and
encourage one another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Welcome to another episode of the Reformed Deacon
Podcast.
My name is Chris Cashin.
I'm here with Tim Hopper.
Tim serves as a deacon at theShiloh Presbyterian Church in
Raleigh, north Carolina, and isa member of the OPC's Committee
on Diaconal Ministries.
I serve with Tim on thatcommittee Committee on Diaconal
(02:27):
Ministries.
I serve with Tim on thatcommittee and I'm a pastor of
Trinity.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Reformed OPC in Lanham, maryland.
Hello, chris, thank you fortalking today about this topic.
This is going to be a littlebit different from ways we've
done this in recent days.
Anyway, we're not going to havea particular host or someone to
interview, but just adiscussion with me and Chris
about ways that deacons can carefor their pastors.
I think in some ways this is agood follow-up to our recent
discussion about the OPCCommittee on Ministerial Care,
(02:51):
which is trying to look at waysthat at a denominational level,
we can serve our ministers.
But then there are a lot ofopportunities, I think, also for
deacons to serve and blesstheir ministers and their
families.
So we just wanted to look atsome ways that is possible.
So I think our question issimple and maybe not considered
(03:12):
in this way often but how canand should a diaconate care for
the pastor or pastors of a localchurch?
So, setting the scene a littlebit, as we think about this
question, we do realize thereare spiritual needs for our
pastors and there will be alsoneeds for mercy and physical
care for our pastors.
I think in a good situation,the spiritual needs of the
(03:35):
pastor should be particularlymet and served by the ruling
elders of the church, as well asfellow ministers within the
presbytery and obviously otherfriends and connections they may
have.
But these elders and ministersare especially ordained and
equipped for this work.
In the work of what we mightcall mercy care and diaconal
care, the deacons obviously havea great opportunity to care for
(03:58):
their pastor and this means andwe want to think a little bit
outside the box of that todayand hopefully delve into some
things that might be a littlebeyond just the most obvious
financial needs that a ministermight have.
We recognize that pastors mayhave events in their lives that
call for financial assistanceyou know, the house damaged by a
(04:20):
flood or a child having anemergency medical need and
circumstances where a pastor mayneed one-time financial help
and hopefully our diaconates areserving in that way and if
they're not being able to servein the way they need, working
with our presbytery diaconalcommittees to help there.
But we want to think about somesituations potentially beyond
that, how a diaconate might carefor their pastor beyond and in
(04:43):
addition to these financialneeds.
So we might think about this assort of baseline care or usual
care of normal diaconal thingsand then some additional things
that deaconates and deaconsmight be able to do as well.
That would be added on to thatkind of diaconal care, and I'm
not sure how often deaconatesconsider this as a topic and an
(05:04):
idea and something for me tothink about more as a deacon and
hopefully encourage others aswell.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Yeah, tim, I think that's right.
I have not been in thepastorate that long, but the
thought that the deacons wouldbe active in caring, with regard
to mercy ministry, for theirpastor, I think is something
that I just haven't experiencedpersonally, and I think it's
something that the deacons ofthe church should be thinking
about and should be pursuing.
(05:31):
So let's consider thissituation.
Reformed OPC of New Beginnings,usa and I don't think that
actually exists has called a manfresh out of seminary to be
their solo pastor.
His name is Dan and now he'sPastor Dan.
(05:52):
The Presbytery has approved thecall, placed it in his hands,
ordained and installed him, andnow he's in his first year of
his pastorate at Reformed OPC.
That may change as we gothrough this scenario, but
that's what we want you to bethinking about.
(06:13):
Reformed OPC has a lovingcongregation, a solid session
and a good group of deacons.
So let's just begin to thinkabout some of the ways that the
deacons could be thinking aboutPastor Dan.
Let's start with just hisfinancial support.
Tim, the diaconate was notinvolved in drafting the call to
(06:37):
Pastor Dan.
Now do you have any thoughts onwhether they should have input,
whether it be at thecongregational level or maybe
even at the presbytery level.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
I think that'd be a very unfortunate situation for
deacons to not be involved atall in that drafting of a call.
In my congregation the sessiondelegates a lot of the financial
management and oversight of thechurch to the deacons.
So in that scenario I thinkit'd be very problematic for
this to happen.
But even if maybe yourtreasurer is on the session or
someone who's not an officer andthe session's only working with
(07:12):
the treasurer and not talkingto the deacons, I think, apart
from just the deacons also beinga part of the leadership of the
church, I think if you're in achurch with a good diaconate
which most of us are that yourdeacons are going to be just
very helpful eyes on thinkingabout a call and being able to
(07:33):
evaluate the fitness of the callfor providing for the minister
and for his family.
So I think it'd be unwise fromthat perspective.
But I also just think it's agood and right responsibility of
the deacons to be part of thecare for their minister in this
way.
So I would certainly encouragesessions to not overlook that
(07:55):
opportunity to involve thedeacons.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
That's good input and possibly the Presbytery
Diaconal Committee at thepresbytery level should have
some input on that.
I don't know that that happensas a matter of routine, but
that's another area in which thedeacons of the church on the
regional level could be involvedin that.
But actually we're beyond that.
(08:18):
With regard to Pastor Dan Tim,do you think that the Board of
Deacons should be checking inwith Pastor Dan on an annual or
maybe other periodic basis tosee how he's doing financially,
maybe even before the annualcongregational meeting?
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah, I think again, another great opportunity for
deacons.
I think this is a great area forthe diaconate and the ruling
elders to also partner togetherin serving the minister.
I think whenever we talk aboutfinancial issues and financial
needs, those are rarelyseparated from spiritual
considerations.
Among other reasons, jesustalks so much about money and
(08:56):
how we think about money and notbeing controlled by money.
I think it's a good opportunityfor both the ruling elders and
the deacons to check in with theminister and understand if his
call is providing for him andhis family and what that looks
like.
I think could take a number ofdifferent approaches, but maybe
you have a pair, a deacon and aruling elder, who just make that
(09:18):
their regular habit to try tocheck in and speak with the
minister.
Or I think it could be workedout a number of ways check in
and speak with the minister, orI think it could be worked out a
number of ways.
But often our diaconates arejust very grounded and wise, and
financially wise men would bevery well equipped to help
understand the situation.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Again, good advice, and I know that things change.
We might think that the callwas sufficient as a man comes,
but once he's there, we canalways be checking in on him to
make sure that our thoughtsactually turned out to be
accurate, as he actually livesin that area.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think, as just an overarchingaspect of this whole discussion
is the opportunity for thedeacon to just be a friend of
the pastor and just know him.
And plus, at our church withtwo pastors and consider them
both friends, and thoserelationships can differ.
(10:16):
You know, maybe sometimes youand your pastor have the same
hobbies sometimes not new, itcan be very different in a lot
of ways.
But an opportunity for thedeacon to just know the pastor
and be a friend to him and tohis wife, outside of needing to
think about this as kind of aformal diaconal task, just to
have a sense of his life and howhe's doing, I think it's a good
(10:37):
opportunity.
You know, I think ruling eldersshould be seeking to do the same
thing, but the relationshipbetween the pastors and the
ruling elders can be differentjust because they are working
together in a different capacityand I think with that there's
just an opportunity for deaconsto have a different relationship
than the ruling elders have,neither bad nor good, but I
(10:58):
think a complimentaryrelationship.
So I would encourage that, ifthat's not happening, get to
know your pastor.
This reminds me I'm supposed toreply to my pastor and tell him
when I can get lunch.
I've been neglecting that.
Another topic that often cancome up is the pastor filing tax
returns, which in the UnitedStates in particular, where most
(11:19):
of our ministers are, can bequite complicated, and for
ministers it can be especiallycomplicated.
The tax laws around ministersare somewhat bizarre.
Do you think deacons have arole in helping pastor figure
out how to complete his taxreturns?
Speaker 3 (11:34):
I think that would be great.
I'm an attorney and I havetrouble going through the
federal forms and the variousstate forms and trying to figure
out what I'm supposed to do.
I know that deacons are notmost are not practicing
attorneys or tax accountants,but maybe the deacons could come
(11:57):
alongside their pastor and justask the question to begin with,
you know, pastor Dan, do youneed help with filing your taxes
?
I know you're a new pastor.
This is all new to you andthere are some particularities
that you need to be aware of.
Do you need help?
And not that the deacons wouldbe equipped necessarily to do
(12:18):
that, but they could point theirpastor to someone who might
have that knowledge.
And that's not to say thatsomeone on the board of deacons
wouldn't have that knowledge.
If they did, that would begreat.
But if not, there are all kindsof helps and some cost money.
Obviously, money, obviously.
(12:43):
But to get their pastor thatadvice that he needs to be
edified and correctly fill outhis returns and take advantage
of the tax laws which are givento pastors so that he can feel
comfortable that he's doingthat's what's required of him as
a citizen of the country andusing his finances well.
That's part of the tax return.
So, citizen of the country andusing his finance as well,
that's part of the tax return.
So, yeah, I think there's arole at least for the Board of
(13:05):
Deacons to come alongside theirpastor and, at a minimum, ask
the question do you need help?
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah, I've served as our treasurer at our church for
a number of years and workedwith four different ministers in
that capacity and I alwaysstrongly encourage them that
they need to find someone,probably a CPA, who has
experience with clergycompensation, to help with them
and filing their taxes.
It is a cost and you know, ifthere's a need to help with that
cost, the church can talk abouthelping with that.
(13:31):
But I think in the long runyou're almost certainly going to
save money because if you messthat up and you get penalties
and various things.
And I think it's good fordeacons to try to be informed
and understand some things likehow housing allowance works and
how you know pastor in the USthis is specifically to the US,
but pastors is, you know,self-employed.
(13:53):
They're just someidiosyncrasies to their taxes
and it's good to understand that.
But I think I strongly encourageministers to have an expert and
I think a lot of ministers havenames that are passed around
between them and have workedwith folks who are experienced
here.
But if you don't have that, askyour deacons and deacons.
I think if you don't haveanswers you can ask around
(14:15):
within your presbytery or Idon't know if the CMC publishes
a list of recommendations.
I'm not aware of that, but Ithink if we asked around at the
CMC level, folks would have somenames to recommend.
So yeah, this can be a veryfrustrating and time-consuming
area.
That's a good way to help out.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Yes, I know very well , I'm sure to help out.
Yes, I know very well, I'm sure.
Another topic, tim, that mightbe of help to the pastor is
health insurance.
It's always a challenge tosecure health insurance, to
figure out what the family needsand what the best policy might
be, and there are various thingsout there, some that are not
(14:58):
actually insurance, but it'salways a challenge and I'm
wondering what your thoughts areif the Board of Deacons can
help Pastor Dan.
He's moved to a new area, he'sgot a young family.
Is there anything that theBoard of Deacons can do to help
guide him in securing thatinsurance for his growing family
?
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
This is another thing I've beeninvolved with and continues to
be a challenge.
I think it's a challenge at alot of our churches.
It's an area where the OPC as adenomination is trying to be
more proactive and helpful.
The one option that hopefullypeople are aware of is that the
Committee on Ministerial Care ofthe OPC has coordinated a group
(15:37):
insurance plans that ministerscan buy into now and those are
expensive.
But unfortunately insurance isjust expensive these days and I
think it's worth churches atleast evaluating it's something
we've been evaluating over thelast year.
One of the ways in which I'vetried to help with that is just
to look at the plans and makerecommendations.
They've changed up the plans alittle bit, I think, since last
year, but some of the plans hadthings that concerned me, like
(16:01):
no out-of-pocket max forexpenses, which is fine in a
normal situation, but if someonegets cancer where the
treatments can, on paper, costmillions and millions of dollars
, that could end up in adifficult spot.
So I just looked through thoseplans and made my suggestions to
our pastors.
If we were going to considerthose, here are the ones that I
(16:22):
would look at and actually, withthat, one of the challenges in
interacting with our minister'sfamilies has sometimes been.
Some folks are inclined to tryto be as frugal as possible and
think, you know, they need tohave the cheapest plan to not be
a burden on the church.
And one of the ways that I'vetried to approach that
diagonally is, say, the church'sgoal here is not necessarily I
(16:45):
mean, some churches are just ina very tight financial situation
but at least in the ideal worldthe church's goal here is not
to make this as cheap aspossible, which ultimately is
going to put the burden on theminister's family to pay for
more expensive care, but ourdesire is to care for you and be
able to help provide for you.
So sometimes it just takes alittle bit of convincing for,
(17:07):
you know, depending on thepersonalities, but I think also
things are different these daysthan they were 20 years ago.
But trying to stay informedabout that and I think a lot of
ministers are getting insuranceoff the marketplace through the
federal government and justtrying to understand how that
works a little bit is, you knowyou don't have to know the ins
(17:28):
and outs, but there are a lot ofnuances there around insurance,
subsidies based on income andvarious things and just trying
to be able to help and guidepeople through what can be a
very frustrating process and, ifyou know folks who work in that
world, being able to connectyour minister with them.
And if not, I think theCommittee on Ministerial Care of
the OPC is a great place toturn with questions and they'll
(17:50):
answer them as they're able.
But yeah, I think it's achallenging and frustrating
situation and sometimesespecially, I think, for folks
buying insurance off themarketplace it becomes a chore
every year to figure out how todeal with that.
I guess also being informedabout and this is just good for
your congregation being informedabout the health share plans
(18:11):
like Samaritan Ministries thatmany folks in our churches use
and that has its own pros andcons.
I think knowing a little bitabout that and being able to
speak helpfully about that topeople is useful.
We have a number of people inour congregation on them.
I think they're great in manyways, but it doesn't come
without difficulties and, yeah,just I think a little bit of
(18:32):
knowledge goes a long way, Iguess here and on top of that,
just being able to offer alittle bit of encouragement
through that, you know it can bea very different experience,
especially from those of us whohave been in, you know, the
corporate world, working andjust having employer provided
insurance for I have for my mywhole adult life you just don't
realize the kind of the stressand the challenges of going
(18:54):
around with having to figurethat out all yourself.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Yeah, that's a good point, Tim around with having to
figure that out all yourself.
Yeah, that's a good point, tim,that the pastor doesn't need to
feel alone as he's navigatingthose deep waters of health
insurance.
Well, tim, when Pastor Danarrived in New Beginnings, he
rented an apartment so he couldjust get a lay of the land and
figure things out.
But now he wants to buy a home.
(19:19):
He's never done so.
He's a young man and I'mcertain that the Board of
Deacons might have someassistance for him.
Where can he go to get somehelp in navigating the
home-buying maze?
And now, when he actuallypurchases a home, is there
anything that the deacons can doto just come alongside and and
(19:43):
and encourage him?
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Yeah, and I think this is one that um is going to
be very situation dependent.
I mean, people come with allkinds of different knowledge.
Uh, I look back to buying myfirst home, which wasn't
actually that long ago six yearsago, I think and realize how
little I knew at the time andhow, you know, I had so many
(20:06):
unknown unknowns I didn't evenknow the questions to ask.
So I think this is a situationwhere if you particularly have
folks who are experienced here,just to be a friend and be able
to make yourself available andchat through these things is
really helpful.
And if you have a realtor inthe church who would be useful,
you know, I don't know, it'smaybe not always the best thing
(20:27):
for the pastor to use therealtor in the church to buy a
house.
I don't know, you can kind ofdecide that on a situational
basis.
But even if they could justadvise and look over things, if
you have somebody in the churchwho is handy we have two deacons
in our church who work inconstruction, which is a huge
blessing, and they, you know, ifthe pastor wants, could go, you
know, look at a home with them.
(20:48):
It may be a big help but itmight not be something everybody
wants, right.
So you, I think this is asituation where you don't want
to just force yourself intohelping, but just to make
yourself available in the mosthelpful way.
I think that just is reallyfeeling out what is needed and
trying to meet those needs.
I guess I feel a little bitnervous about stepping on toes
(21:10):
or coming in.
You don't want to just treatyour minister like they're your
18-year-old child.
I'm curious of your thoughtsfrom the other side of the table
as a minister.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
You know, I really appreciate your sensitivity to
not coming in like a bowl in aChina store and the pastor might
not want it, and so Iappreciate the sensitivity to
that.
I think that's very wise.
As I was buying our first home,I could have used a lot of
guidance.
(21:42):
I wasn't in the pastorate atthat time but I think anyone
coming alongside the pastor andjust at least offering and
saying, look, we know thatyou're here, we know certain
areas that you might want toconsider, we know certain areas
that you might want to stay awayfrom.
We're here to help.
We're not here to push you inany particular direction, but if
(22:02):
you want it, we're here, wehave some knowledge and we do
know realtors, we do know loancompanies, we've got folks that
we can recommend, but we're notagain pushing anyone on you, and
so I think that would behelpful and appreciated by
anyone, especially one who's notsought out or who has not
(22:23):
purchased a home before, whichcan be a daunting task and then,
after you buy it, just tryingto figure out how to turn the
water on or what happens whenthe roof is leaking and the
deacons being there to possiblyprovide some guidance to
craftsmen who can come in andhelp.
So you know, I think thedeacons have a role to play, but
(22:46):
I do appreciate concern forsensitivity to that.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, I think also in maintaining the house, it's a
good time for deacons to assesstheir own abilities.
I have a friend who's aminister, who lived in a manse
and the deacons tried to do alot of the maintenance, with the
emphasis on tried, and it justdidn't.
It didn't go well and I thinkit created some tensions over
things not being met in asatisfactory way.
(23:13):
Um and so it's a goodopportunity for humility and you
know, sometimes we really needto save money, sometimes we
really want to save money, butsometimes we need to be
realistic about our abilitiesand make sure that we're not
causing a strain, and I thinkparticularly that can easily
cause a strain on the minister'swife and family when folks are
(23:35):
trying to be helpful and it'snot being helpful.
So just, I think, a little bitof a caution there.
Yes, good, very good.
So we want to talk about cars,and it's a similar situation to
houses.
In some ways it's also a touchysubject often.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
I think you could probably apply the same wisdom
to to that.
Cars breakdown, I think, moreoften often than houses do, and
so a pastor could certainly usehelp in finding a good mechanic.
But again, I think your wisdomon being sensitive to pushing
knowledge onto the pastor whenit may not be desired is also
(24:15):
wise.
But cars are a bit of their ownproblems.
They're necessary in thecommunities that we live in and
yet they can be very problematic.
So I think the pastor wouldappreciate at least guidance and
going to the right mechanic.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, and you know, I think a lot of us much like.
But if there's also anopportunity, if one, you know,
sometimes young men could feelvery just have a lack of
(25:04):
confidence in this area andsometimes maybe it's just an
opportunity to build up theirconfidence and realize, help
them realize they're, they'rebetter, not just this area, but,
you know, all these kinds ofareas, realize that they're
better at making these decisionsand providing and leading for
their family than they realize.
Sometimes it's an opportunity tosay, oh, you actually don't
know, let me try to talk to youabout it, but I think cars are a
difficult diagonal thing ingeneral.
(25:27):
Just, you know, you often findout folks who are having
financial troubles, have carpayments they shouldn't be
having, and you know peopletheir lives are interfered with
by cars breaking down and youknow it's, I think, a tough one
in our world.
Yes, so let's go back to atopic I already broached on a
little bit, but just thinkingabout hospitality and really
(25:49):
friendship.
So if we, maybe Pastor Dan, hasmoved across the country to
take this call and he has nofriends or family in the area
outside of the local church, howcan a diaconate use hospitality
to encourage Pastor Dan, andalso just think about
encouraging the congregation tohave hospitality.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
I think this is a great question and one that our
churches and maybe ourdiaconates, our sessions, are
really not thinking about.
Many times it's the pastorwho's expected to have
hospitality, and I think that'sthe right expectation.
I think pastors should be theones leading the way in
(26:28):
hospitality.
An encouragement it would befor the deacons to take a lead
role in encouraging the membersof the congregation very
specifically to, hey, have thepastor over to your home just to
give him a sense of who you are, not in a pastoral visit sense,
(26:52):
but just in a friendship, afellowship sense, a community
sense, where you're inviting himinto your home, you're giving
he and his family a meal, you'rejust sharing your lives with
him, and that would be such agreat blessing.
The pastor is feeling part ofthe congregation to that extent
(27:15):
he is feeling welcomed in, he'sfeeling loved, his family is
enjoying just fellowship withanother family.
I think the deacons have asignificant role to encourage
that hospitality.
Certainly they should be doingit themselves as well, I think.
But just encouraging the entirecongregation, Now, that may
(27:37):
take some training.
It may take some teaching.
It may be something that thedeacons would want to bring to
the session and say, hey, we'dlike to, if we can, have a part
of the education hour, maybeonce or twice in the year, to
use to encourage thecongregation in hospitality and
then maybe have a specialsection on, and you know what,
you can invite Pastor Dan andhis family to come as well.
(27:59):
So I think there's a role forthe diaconate to play in
encouraging the congregation andcertainly in providing an
example to the congregation forhospitality, specifically to the
pastor.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, I think that's great Again, an opportunity to
know your pastors and know theirinterests.
And you know one of our pastorsloves pickleball and some folks
in the church love to playpickleball with him are more
than just pastors, they're menand husbands and fathers and
they may have interests.
I think you just read lawtextbooks outside of your work
(28:43):
maybe, but people on the podcastcan't see that you're at a loss
for words from that.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
I don't have anything to respond.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I think just knowing and this goes for all the folks
in our church, right Knowing thefolks in your church and and
understanding you know peopleare more than maybe more than
just the impression you get onSunday, not in a in a bad way.
Just, you know, we only get somuch exposure to someone on
Sunday and I think for a pastorespecially, we get even more
limited because they're veryfocused on Sunday and they have
(29:14):
a large role to play, obviouslyat the church and you just need
that exposure and fellowshipoutside of the church.
I think that's a great reminderto not just expect the pastor
and his family to be thecoordinator for that.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Well, Tim, you've already touched upon this
subject and that is fellowshipwith the pastor subject.
And that is fellowship with thepastor, and I'll just say that
the pastorate can be a verylonely place, especially for a
solo pastor.
Certainly, the session providessome camaraderie, but that's
limited and there are otherchurches in certain locations
(29:53):
that are close enough where apastor can fellowship with other
pastors.
But what an opportunity for thedeacons to come alongside their
pastor and really just takesome time to fellowship with him
, kind of on a one-on-one basis.
What do you think of that?
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, I think, great opportunity, something that we
try to do, like I mentioned,just having a meal together
during the week or if there arecommon interests.
Yeah, I think it just goes backagain to being a friend and
deacons are in a special placeto do that.
Not that others in thecongregation can't, and again,
as with all of this, it's justsomewhat situation dependent.
(30:33):
But I think in any case it'sjust better for our deacons to
be thinking proactively here andnot just assuming everything is
handled and you know.
So you kind of feel that outand understand the needs.
But I think everyone benefitsas those relationships are built
, and not just with the pastorsbut with the ruling elders, the
(30:54):
deacons, the session knowing oneanother outside of just church
and church meetings is a greatthing.
In our church it's kind ofebbed and flowed over the years,
but we sometimes just theofficers will get together on
Sunday evening and sit around afire at somebody's house and,
you know, smoke a pipe and justchat with one another.
(31:16):
It's a great opportunity.
Just think about those thingsand how they could work in your
church.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
That sounds great.
I'd like to be part of that.
You're welcome.
Well, let's not leave thepastor's wife out.
She is in a rather uniquesituation the wife of a pastor.
She's the member of thecongregation, but unless you've
got multiple pastors, she's theonly one, and life can be lonely
(31:43):
in that role as well.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
What can the diacon's wives and I think also the
ruling elder's wives to just bethere for the pastor's wife and
make sure they're aware of her.
But I think again, evaluatingyour situation and the age and
stage of your pastor's wife,maybe you encourage other ladies
in the church who might not bethinking about it to just get to
(32:16):
know her or understand what sheneeds.
Maybe if your pastor has youngkids, what the wife needs is is
a break to just get out byherself.
So try it.
Maybe the deacons can helpcoordinate some kind of
childcare for the woman on aregular basis or something just
so she can get out and have sometime.
You just have to think throughwhat the situation is.
It's different for you.
(32:45):
Your wife as an empty nesterversus a young pastor who has
four, six, eight young kidscould be totally different as to
what this looks like.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Yeah, good point, good point.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Yeah, before we go forward, I think one other thing
to mention again is the OPCCommittee of Ministerial Care
does provide these retreatstipends to help support pastors
and their wives, I think, to gohave some kind of retreat I
don't remember all the detailsof how that works and encourage
deacons to encourage theirministers to make use of that.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Hmm, Actually that feeds right into the next
question, which is a little bitmore difficult than some of the
ones we've talked about earlier.
Pastor Dan is young andenthusiastic and, as the deacons
have been watching him, he'sjust going, going, going.
He is pressing on and preachingand teaching and doing his
(33:37):
visitations and involved inevangelism.
He's enthusiastic and now thedeacons have observed after two
years now we've moved on fromthat first year Dan's looking a
little weary and he may beshowing some signs of burnout.
It's really not time for thesession to consider a sabbatical
, but it does seem to be timefor maybe a change of pace or
(34:02):
some rest.
What can the deaconate do tohelp Pastor Dan to come
alongside Pastor Dan as hebegins his third year?
Speaker 1 (34:10):
I think a lot of opportunities here.
One is that's a good reminderfor the deacons to reevaluate
their own service and thingsthey're doing.
I think in a lot of ourchurches I hear about pastors
doing things that they shouldn'tbe doing the pastor scrambling
on Sunday morning to copybulletins, copy and fold
(34:31):
bulletins right before theservice.
If that's happening, I wouldencourage you to whether the
deacons take that over or findsomebody else in the church who
can help with that and keep thepastor's Sunday morning free
from that responsibility.
It's just an example.
I've tried.
I've actually gotten out of thehabit of this need to get back
in it.
But when our deacons in sessionmeet together which, just as a
(34:53):
side tip, is something thatshould be happening on a regular
basis, but make sure you'resaying to the session are there
things that deacons could bedoing here to take things off
your plate?
And I think asking that butalso just observing that are
there things that you're seeingthe pastor doing that you could
say, hey, can we take that over?
Do you need to be doing thosethings?
(35:15):
And that's the encouragement Itry to give to all church
members and don't just sit andwait to be asked, but look for
ways you can serve.
I think also I wasn't lookingahead in our notes here, but I
think this retreat stipend fromthe Committee on Ministerial
Care is a great thing toconsider.
At least look into the detailsof that.
I know in some churches andthis is very case-by-case things
(35:43):
, but maybe somebody in the homehas a vacation home that
they're willing to lend to thepastor.
I think that's a greatopportunity to make use of that,
even if it's, you know, maybeyou have a beach house and you
let them use it for free in theoff season when you can't rent
it anyway.
To look out for those kinds ofopportunities Again, I think I'm
interested in your perspectiveon this one as a minister.
What are ways which you havebeen or could see being served
(36:03):
in this way?
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Yeah, that's why I said it was a tough question.
You mentioned the Committee onMinisterial Cares Fund at least
that's the way I understand itto provide a getaway for a
pastor and his wife, for a weekmaybe, and there are certain
limitations to that.
But if the deacons are goingand I think they should
encourage their pastor to takeadvantage of that again if it's
(36:27):
offered in 2025, they shouldknow that their pastors need to
get out there early because thefund is limited and they need to
take advantage of the fundwhile there's money still in it.
But in the case that that's notavailable, maybe the deacons
could think about hey, maybe alove gift to the pastor.
(36:48):
Maybe he just doesn't have thefinancial ability at that point
in time to go someplace and justrest and pay for it.
Maybe the deacons mightconsider offering that.
But that's why I said this is atough question and it's
something that deacons mightwant to wrestle with and
certainly interact with thesession on before they would
(37:10):
make any decisions, but it'ssomething for the deacons to
consider.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Yeah, I think a great opportunity to huddle with the
ruling elders in particular andwork on this together, because
certainly I think in all of yourinterests, but also all of your
purview, not to care for yourminister.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
Well, let's touch upon one more topic here, and
that is just kind of asking forhelp, as we think about the
interaction between Pastor Danand the diaconate.
What do you think aboutinviting him to the Board of
Deacons meetings?
Do you think that's appropriate?
Speaker 1 (37:46):
I know this is a habit in some churches.
It's not been a habit in ourchurch.
I think it is appropriate, butI don't think it's not
necessarily always a good idea.
For one it's just an extraresponsibility and usually going
to be an extra night out forthe pastor.
If your pastor is already doinga lot of visitation or other
evening responsibilities,especially if they have kids at
(38:07):
home, I think it's wise to thinkwhether or not that's a good
idea.
I think if you don't do that,like I said, the session and
deacons meeting together on aregular basis is a good thing.
We're trying to get into a habitof doing that quarterly.
Actually, I think we're tryingto switch it now to every other
month from quarterly just tomake sure we're on the same page
(38:29):
.
And I think it's you know.
I think, for if a pastor isattending the deacon meeting, it
is good for him to make surehe's not coming in and being
domineering and taking over,because you need to let your
deacons be your deacons.
But yeah, I think it is a good,could be a good opportunity.
I think it probably could be aparticularly good opportunity
(38:50):
for a young minister who may nothave a lot of exposure to the
diaconate and I think ourseminaries have relatively
limited instruction on diaconalthings, and it's a good thing.
We've only had a little bit ofexperience with interns but it's
something I try to encourageinterns at least to come a
little bit to our deaconmeetings and just see how things
(39:12):
work.
I think it gives them a leg up.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
Yeah, I appreciate your wisdom on that.
A pastor could come into ameeting and thinking that, okay,
now I need to run this, andthat would be the wrong approach
.
But I do appreciate the factthat seminaries really are not.
I don't think they spend.
We spend much time in trainingour future pastors about what
(39:36):
the diaconate looks like.
So, yeah, just inviting them tohey come in and see how we work
and operate would be if he hadtime for that, wonderful, yeah,
good idea.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
So, just as we wrap up here, one other thing to
think about is what do we thinkabout deacons going to their
pastor to help in solving adiaconal matter?
When should deacons go, andwhat kind of things might the
deacons bring to the pastor?
Speaker 3 (40:05):
Again, it's related to the pastor going to the
diaconal meetings, but it's abit different, as I think of
deacons.
I think of deacons as beingproblem solvers and I think it's
the nature of men to say youknow what, we got this and we
really don't need any help onthis.
I think that's part of thenature of a deacon.
(40:27):
I think that's part of thenature of a deacon, but I want
to think that it might be justan encouragement to your pastor
to, from time to time, say, hey,we've got this diaconal
situation, we think we know howto approach it.
But, pastor, what do you thinkNow?
(40:51):
I think that works a couple ofdifferent things.
I think, first, it's thedeacons going and seeking
counsel and advice, not sayingthat we don't have a plan, but
saying, hey, you know what, thisis the way we'd approach it.
We just want to bounce this offyou and see what you think.
Secondly, I think it's anencouragement to the pastor just
(41:14):
knowing that the deacons valuehis input.
And you feel part of the churchwhen the deacons are coming to
you as the pastor and saying,hey, this is going on and first
of all, we want you to know ofit.
But secondly, we'd like yourhelp, and just asking for help
(41:41):
can be an encouragement to thepastor.
Certainly, that can get out ofhand if one were to take it to
an extreme, and he's always onthe phone with every diaconal
matter.
But I'm not suggesting that.
I'm just suggesting that maybethink about going to the pastor
as a means of encouragement tothe pastor.
I'm not sure we would think ofit that way, but if I receive
(42:02):
that kind of question, I'mencouraged that the deac would
value my input on it.
So yeah, I think it's.
I think it's something that thedeacons might want to think
about.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Yeah, that's helpful and I think for us.
We've seen there are so manysituations diaconal situations
that are bigger than justsomebody needing money, as
almost all diaconal situationsare, and I've never regretted
going and talking to the pastorabout those things and that's
good, good for everyone, asyou're saying.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
Yeah Well, tim, as we wrap up, I just want to first
thank you for serving so manyyears at Shiloh, but what other
advice might you offer todeacons just generally, as they
consider this topic of mercyministry to your pastor?
Speaker 1 (42:53):
I think, just generally, a way we serve our
pastors indirectly is justthinking about being faithful
deacons, which means also beingfaithful Christians and faithful
church members and havingdeacons who are regular
attendants in worship, havingdeacons who are raising their
household well, having deaconswho are proactive and responsive
(43:14):
to needs at the church, isgoing to be a boost and
encouragement to your pastor.
So I think there's a lot ofthis we've talked about are the
things of direct involvement,but I think there's a lot of
indirect opportunity as well,where, as the deacons are
serving the church well, you'reserving your pastor and your
elders and that's going to beencouragement.
(43:34):
One of my favorite pieceswritten on the diaconate is this
piece from RC Reed, who is aSouthern Presbyterian.
He wrote this 120 years ago inthe Union Seminary magazine, but
in it he talks about how a gooddeacon is the pastor's most
valuable ally.
Officially he is worth twoelders, and I think what he
means by that is.
(43:54):
He goes on to say the problemwith a good deacon is people try
to make him an elder and so youlose a deacon and gain an elder
.
So that makes a deacon worthtwo elders.
Hopefully the ruling elders arethe pastor's most valuable ally
and the whole congregation aswell.
But I think there's a specialrelationship between the pastor
and the deacon as they servetogether.
That is a chance to be ablessing and an encouragement to
(44:17):
the congregation.
It's something I hope the fourpastors I've served with would
testify to at Shiloh and at allour congregations.
And as we build thatrelationship, as we serve one
another, as we serve the churchtogether, you know, just like
Ephesians, it's a chance for usto grow up in every way into
Christ and it'll bless ourpastor and in turn that's going
(44:40):
to bless the deacon and blessour whole congregation and
there's just, hopefully, asnowball effect of blessing and
service here that deacons havean opportunity to do and that's
such a that's a privilege for meand the motivator to me and
should be for all of our deacons, even through the discouraging
times and the difficult times,that blessing from Christ is
(45:03):
there and is free to the takingfor us, which is a great thing.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Well said, Well said.
Thank you, Tim.
Well, thank you, Tim, fortaking the time to consider this
important topic of serving yourlocal pastor with mercy Deacons
.
We hope that this episode washelpful and will be an
encouragement to you in yourlabors for the Lord.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Thanks for joining us .
Go to our website,thereformdeaconorg.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again for another episode of theReform Deacon Podcast.
Hello, this is Tim Hopper from the OPC Committee on
Diaconal Ministries and theReformed Deacon Podcast.
It's hard to believe that thismonth it's been three years
since the OPC Committee onDiaconal Ministries debuted the
Reformed Deacon Podcast.
The committee has been blessedby it and we hope that you have
been too.
It may be encouraged andinspired to think about the
diaconate in new ways.
We know how much responsibilityyou carry as a local deacon and
(00:23):
we want you to feel supportedin your work through this
podcast.
If you've listened since thebeginning, you know we've
covered a lot of ground.
In our 62 episodes.
We've chatted with authors,explored real-life cases,
examined the doctrinalfoundations of the diaconate and
heard from many experiencedpastors, elders and deacons all
related to the role of the localdeacon.
If you haven't listened to allof them, be sure to go back and
(00:45):
catch up.
The list of future diaconaltopics seems endless and we're
excited for year four and beyond.
We'd love to hear from you Ifyou have comments, topic ideas
or questions.
Drop a quick message to mail atthereformeddeaconorg and you'll
receive a high-quality theReformed Deacon t-shirt.
Be sure to follow us on yourfavorite podcast player so
you'll never miss an episode,and feel free to like and share
(01:09):
with other deacons who you thinkmight benefit for even more
resources.
Check out the CDM's website,opcdmorg.
Thanks for listening.
I think as just an overarchingaspect of this whole discussion
is the opportunity for thedeacon to just be a friend of
(01:29):
the pastor and just know him andthose relationships can differ.
You know, maybe sometimes youand your pastor have the same
hobbies, sometimes not, and itcan be very different in a lot
of ways.
But an opportunity for thedeacon to just know the pastor
and be a friend to him and tohis wife, welcome to the
Reformed Deacon, a casualconversation with topics
(01:50):
specifically designed to helplocal Reformed deacons.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC
alone, so let's take thisopportunity to learn from and
encourage one another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Welcome to another episode of the Reformed Deacon
Podcast.
My name is Chris Cashin.
I'm here with Tim Hopper.
Tim serves as a deacon at theShiloh Presbyterian Church in
Raleigh, north Carolina, and isa member of the OPC's Committee
on Diaconal Ministries.
I serve with Tim on thatcommittee Committee on Diaconal
(02:27):
Ministries.
I serve with Tim on thatcommittee and I'm a pastor of
Trinity.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Reformed OPC in Lanham, maryland.
Hello, chris, thank you fortalking today about this topic.
This is going to be a littlebit different from ways we've
done this in recent days.
Anyway, we're not going to havea particular host or someone to
interview, but just adiscussion with me and Chris
about ways that deacons can carefor their pastors.
I think in some ways this is agood follow-up to our recent
discussion about the OPCCommittee on Ministerial Care,
(02:51):
which is trying to look at waysthat at a denominational level,
we can serve our ministers.
But then there are a lot ofopportunities, I think, also for
deacons to serve and blesstheir ministers and their
families.
So we just wanted to look atsome ways that is possible.
So I think our question issimple and maybe not considered
(03:12):
in this way often but how canand should a diaconate care for
the pastor or pastors of a localchurch?
So, setting the scene a littlebit, as we think about this
question, we do realize thereare spiritual needs for our
pastors and there will be alsoneeds for mercy and physical
care for our pastors.
I think in a good situation,the spiritual needs of the
(03:35):
pastor should be particularlymet and served by the ruling
elders of the church, as well asfellow ministers within the
presbytery and obviously otherfriends and connections they may
have.
But these elders and ministersare especially ordained and
equipped for this work.
In the work of what we mightcall mercy care and diaconal
care, the deacons obviously havea great opportunity to care for
(03:58):
their pastor and this means andwe want to think a little bit
outside the box of that todayand hopefully delve into some
things that might be a littlebeyond just the most obvious
financial needs that a ministermight have.
We recognize that pastors mayhave events in their lives that
call for financial assistanceyou know, the house damaged by a
(04:20):
flood or a child having anemergency medical need and
circumstances where a pastor mayneed one-time financial help
and hopefully our diaconates areserving in that way and if
they're not being able to servein the way they need, working
with our presbytery diaconalcommittees to help there.
But we want to think about somesituations potentially beyond
that, how a diaconate might carefor their pastor beyond and in
(04:43):
addition to these financialneeds.
So we might think about this assort of baseline care or usual
care of normal diaconal thingsand then some additional things
that deaconates and deaconsmight be able to do as well.
That would be added on to thatkind of diaconal care, and I'm
not sure how often deaconatesconsider this as a topic and an
(05:04):
idea and something for me tothink about more as a deacon and
hopefully encourage others aswell.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Yeah, tim, I think that's right.
I have not been in thepastorate that long, but the
thought that the deacons wouldbe active in caring, with regard
to mercy ministry, for theirpastor, I think is something
that I just haven't experiencedpersonally, and I think it's
something that the deacons ofthe church should be thinking
about and should be pursuing.
(05:31):
So let's consider thissituation.
Reformed OPC of New Beginnings,usa and I don't think that
actually exists has called a manfresh out of seminary to be
their solo pastor.
His name is Dan and now he'sPastor Dan.
(05:52):
The Presbytery has approved thecall, placed it in his hands,
ordained and installed him, andnow he's in his first year of
his pastorate at Reformed OPC.
That may change as we gothrough this scenario, but
that's what we want you to bethinking about.
(06:13):
Reformed OPC has a lovingcongregation, a solid session
and a good group of deacons.
So let's just begin to thinkabout some of the ways that the
deacons could be thinking aboutPastor Dan.
Let's start with just hisfinancial support.
Tim, the diaconate was notinvolved in drafting the call to
(06:37):
Pastor Dan.
Now do you have any thoughts onwhether they should have input,
whether it be at thecongregational level or maybe
even at the presbytery level.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
I think that'd be a very unfortunate situation for
deacons to not be involved atall in that drafting of a call.
In my congregation the sessiondelegates a lot of the financial
management and oversight of thechurch to the deacons.
So in that scenario I thinkit'd be very problematic for
this to happen.
But even if maybe yourtreasurer is on the session or
someone who's not an officer andthe session's only working with
(07:12):
the treasurer and not talkingto the deacons, I think, apart
from just the deacons also beinga part of the leadership of the
church, I think if you're in achurch with a good diaconate
which most of us are that yourdeacons are going to be just
very helpful eyes on thinkingabout a call and being able to
(07:33):
evaluate the fitness of the callfor providing for the minister
and for his family.
So I think it'd be unwise fromthat perspective.
But I also just think it's agood and right responsibility of
the deacons to be part of thecare for their minister in this
way.
So I would certainly encouragesessions to not overlook that
(07:55):
opportunity to involve thedeacons.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
That's good input and possibly the Presbytery
Diaconal Committee at thepresbytery level should have
some input on that.
I don't know that that happensas a matter of routine, but
that's another area in which thedeacons of the church on the
regional level could be involvedin that.
But actually we're beyond that.
(08:18):
With regard to Pastor Dan Tim,do you think that the Board of
Deacons should be checking inwith Pastor Dan on an annual or
maybe other periodic basis tosee how he's doing financially,
maybe even before the annualcongregational meeting?
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah, I think again, another great opportunity for
deacons.
I think this is a great area forthe diaconate and the ruling
elders to also partner togetherin serving the minister.
I think whenever we talk aboutfinancial issues and financial
needs, those are rarelyseparated from spiritual
considerations.
Among other reasons, jesustalks so much about money and
(08:56):
how we think about money and notbeing controlled by money.
I think it's a good opportunityfor both the ruling elders and
the deacons to check in with theminister and understand if his
call is providing for him andhis family and what that looks
like.
I think could take a number ofdifferent approaches, but maybe
you have a pair, a deacon and aruling elder, who just make that
(09:18):
their regular habit to try tocheck in and speak with the
minister.
Or I think it could be workedout a number of ways check in
and speak with the minister, orI think it could be worked out a
number of ways.
But often our diaconates arejust very grounded and wise, and
financially wise men would bevery well equipped to help
understand the situation.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Again, good advice, and I know that things change.
We might think that the callwas sufficient as a man comes,
but once he's there, we canalways be checking in on him to
make sure that our thoughtsactually turned out to be
accurate, as he actually livesin that area.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think, as just an overarchingaspect of this whole discussion
is the opportunity for thedeacon to just be a friend of
the pastor and just know him.
And plus, at our church withtwo pastors and consider them
both friends, and thoserelationships can differ.
(10:16):
You know, maybe sometimes youand your pastor have the same
hobbies sometimes not new, itcan be very different in a lot
of ways.
But an opportunity for thedeacon to just know the pastor
and be a friend to him and tohis wife, outside of needing to
think about this as kind of aformal diaconal task, just to
have a sense of his life and howhe's doing, I think it's a good
(10:37):
opportunity.
You know, I think ruling eldersshould be seeking to do the same
thing, but the relationshipbetween the pastors and the
ruling elders can be differentjust because they are working
together in a different capacityand I think with that there's
just an opportunity for deaconsto have a different relationship
than the ruling elders have,neither bad nor good, but I
(10:58):
think a complimentaryrelationship.
So I would encourage that, ifthat's not happening, get to
know your pastor.
This reminds me I'm supposed toreply to my pastor and tell him
when I can get lunch.
I've been neglecting that.
Another topic that often cancome up is the pastor filing tax
returns, which in the UnitedStates in particular, where most
(11:19):
of our ministers are, can bequite complicated, and for
ministers it can be especiallycomplicated.
The tax laws around ministersare somewhat bizarre.
Do you think deacons have arole in helping pastor figure
out how to complete his taxreturns?
Speaker 3 (11:34):
I think that would be great.
I'm an attorney and I havetrouble going through the
federal forms and the variousstate forms and trying to figure
out what I'm supposed to do.
I know that deacons are notmost are not practicing
attorneys or tax accountants,but maybe the deacons could come
(11:57):
alongside their pastor and justask the question to begin with,
you know, pastor Dan, do youneed help with filing your taxes
?
I know you're a new pastor.
This is all new to you andthere are some particularities
that you need to be aware of.
Do you need help?
And not that the deacons wouldbe equipped necessarily to do
(12:18):
that, but they could point theirpastor to someone who might
have that knowledge.
And that's not to say thatsomeone on the board of deacons
wouldn't have that knowledge.
If they did, that would begreat.
But if not, there are all kindsof helps and some cost money.
Obviously, money, obviously.
(12:43):
But to get their pastor thatadvice that he needs to be
edified and correctly fill outhis returns and take advantage
of the tax laws which are givento pastors so that he can feel
comfortable that he's doingthat's what's required of him as
a citizen of the country andusing his finances well.
That's part of the tax return.
So, citizen of the country andusing his finance as well,
that's part of the tax return.
So, yeah, I think there's arole at least for the Board of
(13:05):
Deacons to come alongside theirpastor and, at a minimum, ask
the question do you need help?
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah, I've served as our treasurer at our church for
a number of years and workedwith four different ministers in
that capacity and I alwaysstrongly encourage them that
they need to find someone,probably a CPA, who has
experience with clergycompensation, to help with them
and filing their taxes.
It is a cost and you know, ifthere's a need to help with that
cost, the church can talk abouthelping with that.
(13:31):
But I think in the long runyou're almost certainly going to
save money because if you messthat up and you get penalties
and various things.
And I think it's good fordeacons to try to be informed
and understand some things likehow housing allowance works and
how you know pastor in the USthis is specifically to the US,
but pastors is, you know,self-employed.
(13:53):
They're just someidiosyncrasies to their taxes
and it's good to understand that.
But I think I strongly encourageministers to have an expert and
I think a lot of ministers havenames that are passed around
between them and have workedwith folks who are experienced
here.
But if you don't have that, askyour deacons and deacons.
I think if you don't haveanswers you can ask around
(14:15):
within your presbytery or Idon't know if the CMC publishes
a list of recommendations.
I'm not aware of that, but Ithink if we asked around at the
CMC level, folks would have somenames to recommend.
So yeah, this can be a veryfrustrating and time-consuming
area.
That's a good way to help out.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Yes, I know very well , I'm sure to help out.
Yes, I know very well, I'm sure.
Another topic, tim, that mightbe of help to the pastor is
health insurance.
It's always a challenge tosecure health insurance, to
figure out what the family needsand what the best policy might
be, and there are various thingsout there, some that are not
(14:58):
actually insurance, but it'salways a challenge and I'm
wondering what your thoughts areif the Board of Deacons can
help Pastor Dan.
He's moved to a new area, he'sgot a young family.
Is there anything that theBoard of Deacons can do to help
guide him in securing thatinsurance for his growing family
?
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
This is another thing I've beeninvolved with and continues to
be a challenge.
I think it's a challenge at alot of our churches.
It's an area where the OPC as adenomination is trying to be
more proactive and helpful.
The one option that hopefullypeople are aware of is that the
Committee on Ministerial Care ofthe OPC has coordinated a group
(15:37):
insurance plans that ministerscan buy into now and those are
expensive.
But unfortunately insurance isjust expensive these days and I
think it's worth churches atleast evaluating it's something
we've been evaluating over thelast year.
One of the ways in which I'vetried to help with that is just
to look at the plans and makerecommendations.
They've changed up the plans alittle bit, I think, since last
year, but some of the plans hadthings that concerned me, like
(16:01):
no out-of-pocket max forexpenses, which is fine in a
normal situation, but if someonegets cancer where the
treatments can, on paper, costmillions and millions of dollars
, that could end up in adifficult spot.
So I just looked through thoseplans and made my suggestions to
our pastors.
If we were going to considerthose, here are the ones that I
(16:22):
would look at and actually, withthat, one of the challenges in
interacting with our minister'sfamilies has sometimes been.
Some folks are inclined to tryto be as frugal as possible and
think, you know, they need tohave the cheapest plan to not be
a burden on the church.
And one of the ways that I'vetried to approach that
diagonally is, say, the church'sgoal here is not necessarily I
(16:45):
mean, some churches are just ina very tight financial situation
but at least in the ideal worldthe church's goal here is not
to make this as cheap aspossible, which ultimately is
going to put the burden on theminister's family to pay for
more expensive care, but ourdesire is to care for you and be
able to help provide for you.
So sometimes it just takes alittle bit of convincing for,
(17:07):
you know, depending on thepersonalities, but I think also
things are different these daysthan they were 20 years ago.
But trying to stay informedabout that and I think a lot of
ministers are getting insuranceoff the marketplace through the
federal government and justtrying to understand how that
works a little bit is, you knowyou don't have to know the ins
(17:28):
and outs, but there are a lot ofnuances there around insurance,
subsidies based on income andvarious things and just trying
to be able to help and guidepeople through what can be a
very frustrating process and, ifyou know folks who work in that
world, being able to connectyour minister with them.
And if not, I think theCommittee on Ministerial Care of
the OPC is a great place toturn with questions and they'll
(17:50):
answer them as they're able.
But yeah, I think it's achallenging and frustrating
situation and sometimesespecially, I think, for folks
buying insurance off themarketplace it becomes a chore
every year to figure out how todeal with that.
I guess also being informedabout and this is just good for
your congregation being informedabout the health share plans
(18:11):
like Samaritan Ministries thatmany folks in our churches use
and that has its own pros andcons.
I think knowing a little bitabout that and being able to
speak helpfully about that topeople is useful.
We have a number of people inour congregation on them.
I think they're great in manyways, but it doesn't come
without difficulties and, yeah,just I think a little bit of
(18:32):
knowledge goes a long way, Iguess here and on top of that,
just being able to offer alittle bit of encouragement
through that, you know it can bea very different experience,
especially from those of us whohave been in, you know, the
corporate world, working andjust having employer provided
insurance for I have for my mywhole adult life you just don't
realize the kind of the stressand the challenges of going
(18:54):
around with having to figurethat out all yourself.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Yeah, that's a good point, Tim around with having to
figure that out all yourself.
Yeah, that's a good point, tim,that the pastor doesn't need to
feel alone as he's navigatingthose deep waters of health
insurance.
Well, tim, when Pastor Danarrived in New Beginnings, he
rented an apartment so he couldjust get a lay of the land and
figure things out.
But now he wants to buy a home.
(19:19):
He's never done so.
He's a young man and I'mcertain that the Board of
Deacons might have someassistance for him.
Where can he go to get somehelp in navigating the
home-buying maze?
And now, when he actuallypurchases a home, is there
anything that the deacons can doto just come alongside and and
(19:43):
and encourage him?
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Yeah, and I think this is one that um is going to
be very situation dependent.
I mean, people come with allkinds of different knowledge.
Uh, I look back to buying myfirst home, which wasn't
actually that long ago six yearsago, I think and realize how
little I knew at the time andhow, you know, I had so many
(20:06):
unknown unknowns I didn't evenknow the questions to ask.
So I think this is a situationwhere if you particularly have
folks who are experienced here,just to be a friend and be able
to make yourself available andchat through these things is
really helpful.
And if you have a realtor inthe church who would be useful,
you know, I don't know, it'smaybe not always the best thing
(20:27):
for the pastor to use therealtor in the church to buy a
house.
I don't know, you can kind ofdecide that on a situational
basis.
But even if they could justadvise and look over things, if
you have somebody in the churchwho is handy we have two deacons
in our church who work inconstruction, which is a huge
blessing, and they, you know, ifthe pastor wants, could go, you
know, look at a home with them.
(20:48):
It may be a big help but itmight not be something everybody
wants, right.
So you, I think this is asituation where you don't want
to just force yourself intohelping, but just to make
yourself available in the mosthelpful way.
I think that just is reallyfeeling out what is needed and
trying to meet those needs.
I guess I feel a little bitnervous about stepping on toes
(21:10):
or coming in.
You don't want to just treatyour minister like they're your
18-year-old child.
I'm curious of your thoughtsfrom the other side of the table
as a minister.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
You know, I really appreciate your sensitivity to
not coming in like a bowl in aChina store and the pastor might
not want it, and so Iappreciate the sensitivity to
that.
I think that's very wise.
As I was buying our first home,I could have used a lot of
guidance.
(21:42):
I wasn't in the pastorate atthat time but I think anyone
coming alongside the pastor andjust at least offering and
saying, look, we know thatyou're here, we know certain
areas that you might want toconsider, we know certain areas
that you might want to stay awayfrom.
We're here to help.
We're not here to push you inany particular direction, but if
(22:02):
you want it, we're here, wehave some knowledge and we do
know realtors, we do know loancompanies, we've got folks that
we can recommend, but we're notagain pushing anyone on you, and
so I think that would behelpful and appreciated by
anyone, especially one who's notsought out or who has not
(22:23):
purchased a home before, whichcan be a daunting task and then,
after you buy it, just tryingto figure out how to turn the
water on or what happens whenthe roof is leaking and the
deacons being there to possiblyprovide some guidance to
craftsmen who can come in andhelp.
So you know, I think thedeacons have a role to play, but
(22:46):
I do appreciate concern forsensitivity to that.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, I think also in maintaining the house, it's a
good time for deacons to assesstheir own abilities.
I have a friend who's aminister, who lived in a manse
and the deacons tried to do alot of the maintenance, with the
emphasis on tried, and it justdidn't.
It didn't go well and I thinkit created some tensions over
things not being met in asatisfactory way.
(23:13):
Um and so it's a goodopportunity for humility and you
know, sometimes we really needto save money, sometimes we
really want to save money, butsometimes we need to be
realistic about our abilitiesand make sure that we're not
causing a strain, and I thinkparticularly that can easily
cause a strain on the minister'swife and family when folks are
(23:35):
trying to be helpful and it'snot being helpful.
So just, I think, a little bitof a caution there.
Yes, good, very good.
So we want to talk about cars,and it's a similar situation to
houses.
In some ways it's also a touchysubject often.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
I think you could probably apply the same wisdom
to to that.
Cars breakdown, I think, moreoften often than houses do, and
so a pastor could certainly usehelp in finding a good mechanic.
But again, I think your wisdomon being sensitive to pushing
knowledge onto the pastor whenit may not be desired is also
(24:15):
wise.
But cars are a bit of their ownproblems.
They're necessary in thecommunities that we live in and
yet they can be very problematic.
So I think the pastor wouldappreciate at least guidance and
going to the right mechanic.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, and you know, I think a lot of us much like.
But if there's also anopportunity, if one, you know,
sometimes young men could feelvery just have a lack of
(25:04):
confidence in this area andsometimes maybe it's just an
opportunity to build up theirconfidence and realize, help
them realize they're, they'rebetter, not just this area, but,
you know, all these kinds ofareas, realize that they're
better at making these decisionsand providing and leading for
their family than they realize.
Sometimes it's an opportunity tosay, oh, you actually don't
know, let me try to talk to youabout it, but I think cars are a
difficult diagonal thing ingeneral.
(25:27):
Just, you know, you often findout folks who are having
financial troubles, have carpayments they shouldn't be
having, and you know peopletheir lives are interfered with
by cars breaking down and youknow it's, I think, a tough one
in our world.
Yes, so let's go back to atopic I already broached on a
little bit, but just thinkingabout hospitality and really
(25:49):
friendship.
So if we, maybe Pastor Dan, hasmoved across the country to
take this call and he has nofriends or family in the area
outside of the local church, howcan a diaconate use hospitality
to encourage Pastor Dan, andalso just think about
encouraging the congregation tohave hospitality.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
I think this is a great question and one that our
churches and maybe ourdiaconates, our sessions, are
really not thinking about.
Many times it's the pastorwho's expected to have
hospitality, and I think that'sthe right expectation.
I think pastors should be theones leading the way in
(26:28):
hospitality.
An encouragement it would befor the deacons to take a lead
role in encouraging the membersof the congregation very
specifically to, hey, have thepastor over to your home just to
give him a sense of who you are, not in a pastoral visit sense,
(26:52):
but just in a friendship, afellowship sense, a community
sense, where you're inviting himinto your home, you're giving
he and his family a meal, you'rejust sharing your lives with
him, and that would be such agreat blessing.
The pastor is feeling part ofthe congregation to that extent
(27:15):
he is feeling welcomed in, he'sfeeling loved, his family is
enjoying just fellowship withanother family.
I think the deacons have asignificant role to encourage
that hospitality.
Certainly they should be doingit themselves as well, I think.
But just encouraging the entirecongregation, Now, that may
(27:37):
take some training.
It may take some teaching.
It may be something that thedeacons would want to bring to
the session and say, hey, we'dlike to, if we can, have a part
of the education hour, maybeonce or twice in the year, to
use to encourage thecongregation in hospitality and
then maybe have a specialsection on, and you know what,
you can invite Pastor Dan andhis family to come as well.
(27:59):
So I think there's a role forthe diaconate to play in
encouraging the congregation andcertainly in providing an
example to the congregation forhospitality, specifically to the
pastor.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, I think that's great Again, an opportunity to
know your pastors and know theirinterests.
And you know one of our pastorsloves pickleball and some folks
in the church love to playpickleball with him are more
than just pastors, they're menand husbands and fathers and
they may have interests.
I think you just read lawtextbooks outside of your work
(28:43):
maybe, but people on the podcastcan't see that you're at a loss
for words from that.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
I don't have anything to respond.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I think just knowing and this goes for all the folks
in our church, right Knowing thefolks in your church and and
understanding you know peopleare more than maybe more than
just the impression you get onSunday, not in a in a bad way.
Just, you know, we only get somuch exposure to someone on
Sunday and I think for a pastorespecially, we get even more
limited because they're veryfocused on Sunday and they have
(29:14):
a large role to play, obviouslyat the church and you just need
that exposure and fellowshipoutside of the church.
I think that's a great reminderto not just expect the pastor
and his family to be thecoordinator for that.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Well, Tim, you've already touched upon this
subject and that is fellowshipwith the pastor subject.
And that is fellowship with thepastor, and I'll just say that
the pastorate can be a verylonely place, especially for a
solo pastor.
Certainly, the session providessome camaraderie, but that's
limited and there are otherchurches in certain locations
(29:53):
that are close enough where apastor can fellowship with other
pastors.
But what an opportunity for thedeacons to come alongside their
pastor and really just takesome time to fellowship with him
, kind of on a one-on-one basis.
What do you think of that?
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, I think, great opportunity, something that we
try to do, like I mentioned,just having a meal together
during the week or if there arecommon interests.
Yeah, I think it just goes backagain to being a friend and
deacons are in a special placeto do that.
Not that others in thecongregation can't, and again,
as with all of this, it's justsomewhat situation dependent.
(30:33):
But I think in any case it'sjust better for our deacons to
be thinking proactively here andnot just assuming everything is
handled and you know.
So you kind of feel that outand understand the needs.
But I think everyone benefitsas those relationships are built
, and not just with the pastorsbut with the ruling elders, the
(30:54):
deacons, the session knowing oneanother outside of just church
and church meetings is a greatthing.
In our church it's kind ofebbed and flowed over the years,
but we sometimes just theofficers will get together on
Sunday evening and sit around afire at somebody's house and,
you know, smoke a pipe and justchat with one another.
(31:16):
It's a great opportunity.
Just think about those thingsand how they could work in your
church.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
That sounds great.
I'd like to be part of that.
You're welcome.
Well, let's not leave thepastor's wife out.
She is in a rather uniquesituation the wife of a pastor.
She's the member of thecongregation, but unless you've
got multiple pastors, she's theonly one, and life can be lonely
(31:43):
in that role as well.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
What can the diacon's wives and I think also the
ruling elder's wives to just bethere for the pastor's wife and
make sure they're aware of her.
But I think again, evaluatingyour situation and the age and
stage of your pastor's wife,maybe you encourage other ladies
in the church who might not bethinking about it to just get to
(32:16):
know her or understand what sheneeds.
Maybe if your pastor has youngkids, what the wife needs is is
a break to just get out byherself.
So try it.
Maybe the deacons can helpcoordinate some kind of
childcare for the woman on aregular basis or something just
so she can get out and have sometime.
You just have to think throughwhat the situation is.
It's different for you.
(32:45):
Your wife as an empty nesterversus a young pastor who has
four, six, eight young kidscould be totally different as to
what this looks like.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Yeah, good point, good point.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Yeah, before we go forward, I think one other thing
to mention again is the OPCCommittee of Ministerial Care
does provide these retreatstipends to help support pastors
and their wives, I think, to gohave some kind of retreat I
don't remember all the detailsof how that works and encourage
deacons to encourage theirministers to make use of that.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Hmm, Actually that feeds right into the next
question, which is a little bitmore difficult than some of the
ones we've talked about earlier.
Pastor Dan is young andenthusiastic and, as the deacons
have been watching him, he'sjust going, going, going.
He is pressing on and preachingand teaching and doing his
(33:37):
visitations and involved inevangelism.
He's enthusiastic and now thedeacons have observed after two
years now we've moved on fromthat first year Dan's looking a
little weary and he may beshowing some signs of burnout.
It's really not time for thesession to consider a sabbatical
, but it does seem to be timefor maybe a change of pace or
(34:02):
some rest.
What can the deaconate do tohelp Pastor Dan to come
alongside Pastor Dan as hebegins his third year?
Speaker 1 (34:10):
I think a lot of opportunities here.
One is that's a good reminderfor the deacons to reevaluate
their own service and thingsthey're doing.
I think in a lot of ourchurches I hear about pastors
doing things that they shouldn'tbe doing the pastor scrambling
on Sunday morning to copybulletins, copy and fold
(34:31):
bulletins right before theservice.
If that's happening, I wouldencourage you to whether the
deacons take that over or findsomebody else in the church who
can help with that and keep thepastor's Sunday morning free
from that responsibility.
It's just an example.
I've tried.
I've actually gotten out of thehabit of this need to get back
in it.
But when our deacons in sessionmeet together which, just as a
(34:53):
side tip, is something thatshould be happening on a regular
basis, but make sure you'resaying to the session are there
things that deacons could bedoing here to take things off
your plate?
And I think asking that butalso just observing that are
there things that you're seeingthe pastor doing that you could
say, hey, can we take that over?
Do you need to be doing thosethings?
(35:15):
And that's the encouragement Itry to give to all church
members and don't just sit andwait to be asked, but look for
ways you can serve.
I think also I wasn't lookingahead in our notes here, but I
think this retreat stipend fromthe Committee on Ministerial
Care is a great thing toconsider.
At least look into the detailsof that.
I know in some churches andthis is very case-by-case things
(35:43):
, but maybe somebody in the homehas a vacation home that
they're willing to lend to thepastor.
I think that's a greatopportunity to make use of that,
even if it's, you know, maybeyou have a beach house and you
let them use it for free in theoff season when you can't rent
it anyway.
To look out for those kinds ofopportunities Again, I think I'm
interested in your perspectiveon this one as a minister.
What are ways which you havebeen or could see being served
(36:03):
in this way?
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Yeah, that's why I said it was a tough question.
You mentioned the Committee onMinisterial Cares Fund at least
that's the way I understand itto provide a getaway for a
pastor and his wife, for a weekmaybe, and there are certain
limitations to that.
But if the deacons are goingand I think they should
encourage their pastor to takeadvantage of that again if it's
(36:27):
offered in 2025, they shouldknow that their pastors need to
get out there early because thefund is limited and they need to
take advantage of the fundwhile there's money still in it.
But in the case that that's notavailable, maybe the deacons
could think about hey, maybe alove gift to the pastor.
(36:48):
Maybe he just doesn't have thefinancial ability at that point
in time to go someplace and justrest and pay for it.
Maybe the deacons mightconsider offering that.
But that's why I said this is atough question and it's
something that deacons mightwant to wrestle with and
certainly interact with thesession on before they would
(37:10):
make any decisions, but it'ssomething for the deacons to
consider.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Yeah, I think a great opportunity to huddle with the
ruling elders in particular andwork on this together, because
certainly I think in all of yourinterests, but also all of your
purview, not to care for yourminister.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
Well, let's touch upon one more topic here, and
that is just kind of asking forhelp, as we think about the
interaction between Pastor Danand the diaconate.
What do you think aboutinviting him to the Board of
Deacons meetings?
Do you think that's appropriate?
Speaker 1 (37:46):
I know this is a habit in some churches.
It's not been a habit in ourchurch.
I think it is appropriate, butI don't think it's not
necessarily always a good idea.
For one it's just an extraresponsibility and usually going
to be an extra night out forthe pastor.
If your pastor is already doinga lot of visitation or other
evening responsibilities,especially if they have kids at
(38:07):
home, I think it's wise to thinkwhether or not that's a good
idea.
I think if you don't do that,like I said, the session and
deacons meeting together on aregular basis is a good thing.
We're trying to get into a habitof doing that quarterly.
Actually, I think we're tryingto switch it now to every other
month from quarterly just tomake sure we're on the same page
(38:29):
.
And I think it's you know.
I think, for if a pastor isattending the deacon meeting, it
is good for him to make surehe's not coming in and being
domineering and taking over,because you need to let your
deacons be your deacons.
But yeah, I think it is a good,could be a good opportunity.
I think it probably could be aparticularly good opportunity
(38:50):
for a young minister who may nothave a lot of exposure to the
diaconate and I think ourseminaries have relatively
limited instruction on diaconalthings, and it's a good thing.
We've only had a little bit ofexperience with interns but it's
something I try to encourageinterns at least to come a
little bit to our deaconmeetings and just see how things
(39:12):
work.
I think it gives them a leg up.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
Yeah, I appreciate your wisdom on that.
A pastor could come into ameeting and thinking that, okay,
now I need to run this, andthat would be the wrong approach
.
But I do appreciate the factthat seminaries really are not.
I don't think they spend.
We spend much time in trainingour future pastors about what
(39:36):
the diaconate looks like.
So, yeah, just inviting them tohey come in and see how we work
and operate would be if he hadtime for that, wonderful, yeah,
good idea.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
So, just as we wrap up here, one other thing to
think about is what do we thinkabout deacons going to their
pastor to help in solving adiaconal matter?
When should deacons go, andwhat kind of things might the
deacons bring to the pastor?
Speaker 3 (40:05):
Again, it's related to the pastor going to the
diaconal meetings, but it's abit different, as I think of
deacons.
I think of deacons as beingproblem solvers and I think it's
the nature of men to say youknow what, we got this and we
really don't need any help onthis.
I think that's part of thenature of a deacon.
(40:27):
I think that's part of thenature of a deacon, but I want
to think that it might be justan encouragement to your pastor
to, from time to time, say, hey,we've got this diaconal
situation, we think we know howto approach it.
But, pastor, what do you thinkNow?
(40:51):
I think that works a couple ofdifferent things.
I think, first, it's thedeacons going and seeking
counsel and advice, not sayingthat we don't have a plan, but
saying, hey, you know what, thisis the way we'd approach it.
We just want to bounce this offyou and see what you think.
Secondly, I think it's anencouragement to the pastor just
(41:14):
knowing that the deacons valuehis input.
And you feel part of the churchwhen the deacons are coming to
you as the pastor and saying,hey, this is going on and first
of all, we want you to know ofit.
But secondly, we'd like yourhelp, and just asking for help
(41:41):
can be an encouragement to thepastor.
Certainly, that can get out ofhand if one were to take it to
an extreme, and he's always onthe phone with every diaconal
matter.
But I'm not suggesting that.
I'm just suggesting that maybethink about going to the pastor
as a means of encouragement tothe pastor.
I'm not sure we would think ofit that way, but if I receive
(42:02):
that kind of question, I'mencouraged that the deac would
value my input on it.
So yeah, I think it's.
I think it's something that thedeacons might want to think
about.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Yeah, that's helpful and I think for us.
We've seen there are so manysituations diaconal situations
that are bigger than justsomebody needing money, as
almost all diaconal situationsare, and I've never regretted
going and talking to the pastorabout those things and that's
good, good for everyone, asyou're saying.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
Yeah Well, tim, as we wrap up, I just want to first
thank you for serving so manyyears at Shiloh, but what other
advice might you offer todeacons just generally, as they
consider this topic of mercyministry to your pastor?
Speaker 1 (42:53):
I think, just generally, a way we serve our
pastors indirectly is justthinking about being faithful
deacons, which means also beingfaithful Christians and faithful
church members and havingdeacons who are regular
attendants in worship, havingdeacons who are raising their
household well, having deaconswho are proactive and responsive
(43:14):
to needs at the church, isgoing to be a boost and
encouragement to your pastor.
So I think there's a lot ofthis we've talked about are the
things of direct involvement,but I think there's a lot of
indirect opportunity as well,where, as the deacons are
serving the church well, you'reserving your pastor and your
elders and that's going to beencouragement.
(43:34):
One of my favorite pieceswritten on the diaconate is this
piece from RC Reed, who is aSouthern Presbyterian.
He wrote this 120 years ago inthe Union Seminary magazine, but
in it he talks about how a gooddeacon is the pastor's most
valuable ally.
Officially he is worth twoelders, and I think what he
means by that is.
(43:54):
He goes on to say the problemwith a good deacon is people try
to make him an elder and so youlose a deacon and gain an elder
.
So that makes a deacon worthtwo elders.
Hopefully the ruling elders arethe pastor's most valuable ally
and the whole congregation aswell.
But I think there's a specialrelationship between the pastor
and the deacon as they servetogether.
That is a chance to be ablessing and an encouragement to
(44:17):
the congregation.
It's something I hope the fourpastors I've served with would
testify to at Shiloh and at allour congregations.
And as we build thatrelationship, as we serve one
another, as we serve the churchtogether, you know, just like
Ephesians, it's a chance for usto grow up in every way into
Christ and it'll bless ourpastor and in turn that's going
(44:40):
to bless the deacon and blessour whole congregation and
there's just, hopefully, asnowball effect of blessing and
service here that deacons havean opportunity to do and that's
such a that's a privilege for meand the motivator to me and
should be for all of our deacons, even through the discouraging
times and the difficult times,that blessing from Christ is
(45:03):
there and is free to the takingfor us, which is a great thing.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Well said, Well said.
Thank you, Tim.
Well, thank you, Tim, fortaking the time to consider this
important topic of serving yourlocal pastor with mercy Deacons
.
We hope that this episode washelpful and will be an
encouragement to you in yourlabors for the Lord.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Thanks for joining us .
Go to our website,thereformdeaconorg.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again for another episode of theReform Deacon Podcast.
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