November 15, 2024 • 35 mins
In this episode, host, David Nakhla is joined by deacon John Stahl (Immanuel OPC, Wilmington, DE), deacon John Voss (Covenant OPC, Orland Park, IL) and pastor Adrian Crum (Harvest OPC, Wyoming, MI) to discuss our fist set of listener questions, from Caleb in Phoenix, Arizona, all related to I Timothy 5:3-16. This is an insightful, yet complex passage regarding widows and how they are to be regarded and provided for by the church.
Caleb's questions:
1. How should deacons interact with people asking for help when they have not yet asked their family for it? Verse four basically implies it's first the family's job then the church's job right? And is it the deacons job to go to the family asking for money on behalf of the person, or just telling them to ask and then come back if they refuse? Just overall I wonder what that interaction should look like. Have you ever had to enact church discipline on family members unwilling to provide for a widow (since they are "worse than an unbeliever")? Also, do you think this also applies to people with only unbelieving family?
2. How do deacons (or how SHOULD they) deal with the command to "refuse to enroll younger widows" (v. 11) and basically refuse to help people that could change their own circumstance (get remarried?) Is Paul referring to this group of "widows" widely and generally. Some of these concepts probably have to carry over to widowers as well so how do you decide what is specific to that time period and what is prescribed for today's church?
3. Similarity to #2, how should deacons focus on the godliness of those asking for help? Verses 9-10 seem to say that they must have shown exceptional godliness to be enrolled. (is there something special about this term "enrollment" compared to general financial help?) How do deacons differentiate between a request of a very godly member of the church compared to a spiritually lukewarm member (or an outside unbeliever asking for help)?
Although our panel doesn't pretend to have all the answers, we hope you will find the discussion to be insightful, helpful and scripturally based.
If you have questions you'd like more insight on, please be sure to email us: mail@thereformeddeacon.org.
Referenced in this episode:
Hebrews 3:13
1 Timothy 5:4
The Deacon: The Biblical Roots and the Ministry of Mercy Today
1 Corinthians 7:37
Hebrews 13:17
You can find all of our episodes at thereformeddeacon.org. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for giveaways and more information. Find other resources on OPCCDM.org. Make sure to send us some feedback on your podcast player or a
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Adrian Crum (00:00):
It's helpful to remember always that it's
typical that when there is somesort of financial breakdown,
there are also lots of spiritualstruggles in different ways,
and I think merely putting aBand-Aid on something
temporarily without askingheart-level spiritual questions
does not serve people very well.
David Nakhla (00:16):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousandDeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
My name is David Nakhla and I'mthe Administrator for the OPC
(00:38):
Committee on Diaconal Ministries.
On today's episode of theReformed Deacon, I'll be joined
by three members of theCommittee on Diaconal Ministries
deacon John Voss, deacon JohnStahl and pastor Adrian Crum.
They've all agreed toparticipate in interacting on a
set of excellent listenerquestions.
I'm sure my brothers here willbe the first to tell you that
(01:01):
they don't pretend to have allthe answers, but hopefully their
interactions on this text willhelp shed some light on the
topic.
And a big thank you to Caleb inPhoenix, arizona, who sent us
these questions.
We'll be sending you a ReformedDeacon t-shirt, caleb, if you
don't have one yet, and othersof you if you have questions or
ideas on a diaconal topic thatyou'd like to hear discussed.
(01:25):
Let us know by emailing us atmail, m-a-i-l mail@
thereformedeacon.
org.
You can find that in the shownotes below.
Great way to get a t-shirt.
They're comfortable.
Okay, brothers, let's getstarted.
Our questions come today from 1Timothy, 5: 3-16.
(01:50):
And I thought it'd be good tobegin by reading that passage,
kind of bringing it fresh intoour minds and then we can
interact with it.
So this is God's word I Timothy5:3- 16.
Honor widows who are trulywidows.
But if a widow has children orgrandchildren, let them first
(02:12):
learn to show godliness to theirown household and to make some
return to their parents, forthis is pleasing in the sight of
God.
She who is truly a widow, leftall alone, has set her hope on
God and continues insupplications and prayers night
and day.
But she who is self-indulgentis dead even while she lives.
(02:37):
Command these things as well,so that they may be without
reproach.
But if anyone does not providefor his relatives, and
especially for members of hishousehold, he has denied the
faith and is worse than anunbeliever.
Let a widow be enrolled if sheis not less than 60 years of age
(02:59):
, having been the wife of onehusband and having a reputation
for good works, if she hasbrought up children, has shown
hospitality, has washed the feetof the saints, has cared for
the afflicted and has devotedherself to every good work, but
(03:19):
refuse to enroll younger widowsfor when their passions draw
them away from Christ.
To enroll younger widows, forwhen their passions draw them
away from Christ.
They desire to marry and soincur condemnation for having
abandoned their former faith.
Besides that, they learn to beidlers, going about from house
to house, and not only idlersbut also gossips and busybodies
(03:41):
saying what they should not.
So I would have younger widowsmarry, bear children, manage
their households and give theadversary no occasion for
slander, for some have alreadystrayed after Satan.
If any believing woman hasrelatives who are widows, let
(04:01):
her care for them.
Let the church not be burdened,so that it may care for those
who are truly widows.
Let her care for them.
Let the church not be burdenedso that it may care for those
who are truly widows.
So, brothers, our firstquestion here that's come to us
is how should deacons interactwith people asking for help when
they have not yet asked theirfamily for it?
(04:23):
Our questioner points out thatverse four basically implies
it's first the family's job andthen the church's job.
But he wonders is it thedeacon's job to go to the family
asking for money on behalf ofthe person, or just telling them
to ask and then come back ifthey refuse.
He wonders what thatinteraction would look like.
(04:43):
Should deacons, how do theyinvolve the family when someone
comes to them asking for help?
John Voss (04:49):
If the person's coming asking for help, the
first thing I would want to dois find out what the issue is,
obviously what help is needed.
Once you've had thatconversation, the very next
question would be have youtalked to your family?
Because family comes first.
Right, it's not necessarily thechurch's responsibility, it's
(05:11):
the family's responsibilitynumber one when God instituted
family.
That's why he instituted thefamily to take care of each
other.
And then we see thecondemnation that Paul says by
you know it's worse than anunbeliever.
So I would be inclined tolisten to the situation but then
(05:32):
immediately ask have you talkedto family?
And I would do that.
If it's my church or whetherit's a walk-in from the street,
I would always ask about familyfirst and then maybe, if it's
pertinent, meaning that by thatI mean that it's a stranger from
off the street the nextquestion is well, what about
(05:52):
your home church?
That would be the next thingtoo.
Yeah.
John Stahl (05:56):
I would definitely agree with that.
That's our practice amongst ourdeacons at our church, amongst
our deacons at our church, and Idon't think there is any.
I'm glad, J ohn, that youbrought up that.
There really is no— I don'tthink there's much difference in
how we make suggestions tothose who have need inside the
(06:21):
church or outside, except Iwould actually challenge them to
ask their family first ineither case, and if it's within
the church and we hear thefamily refuse to help, then I
think it's probably a matter ofbringing the elders, getting the
elders involved, becausethere's other underlying issues
(06:45):
than just meeting physical need.
John Voss (06:48):
And that would be something that we would need to
clarify as well.
I know of individuals wherethere was drug addiction,
alcohol abuse.
The family tried to help.
For years the family helped,but there does come a time when
the family I don't want to sayturns your back, but if they're
(07:09):
not willing to engage with thehelp the family's trying to
offer them, there does come atime.
I think that you have to getthe church involved.
I think there's a time when youmay have to say we have to.
I don't want to say stop, but Iguess ultimately, yeah, you
almost have to stop because youcan't enable.
(07:30):
But with the idea that I'mstopping, I'm not breaking off
communication, I'm just notgoing to give you another 50
bucks or $25 because I'menabling you.
But there does come a time whenI think there is denial of the
request may be necessary, butstill staying in touch and
(07:50):
trying somehow to exhibit loveby staying asked their family
and there's been no help.
John Stahl (08:05):
So we've never had to get the elders involved in a
situation like that at the timethat I've been a deacon.
Yet I do remember one incidentfrom way back that a young
couple had the need and I askedif the family had helped yet,
and they hadn't.
And so I suggested that theyask for help from their parents,
(08:27):
who were part of the church aswell.
And what I remember from thatlong ago was it was positive,
the family did help, but thenthe deacons also helped where
the family couldn't.
So the family and the deaconsfulfilled their duties to this
young couple.
(08:48):
And then, in another case, whichhappened just a few weeks ago,
we had a call from the outsideand, as always, like John Voss
was saying, I suggested to theperson with the need to ask
their family, and typically theresponse is well, they can't
help either, or they've helpedso much already.
(09:09):
I said well, you know, still weask you to try.
You know, you never know whatGod will do.
And so what happened was theirmother helped out enough that
the church didn't even have tohelp.
So that was a success story,which doesn't often happen,
(09:30):
especially with somebody fromoutside the church.
Adrian Crum (09:34):
I think maybe to put the passage in context in
the New Testament, it's a letterfrom Paul to a young pastor
who's struggling through avariety of different problems
and issues, and I think we takeverse eight if anyone does not
provide for his relatives,especially for members of his
household, he's denied the faithand is worse than an unbeliever
.
We take that as sort of aprinciple, randomly, but it
(09:57):
comes in the context ofspecifically asking which widows
should be cared forconsistently by the church, and
I think there will be, to kindof qualify some of the things
that we've said, that John Vossand John Stahl have said, I
think there will be one-offsituations of maybe extremely
urgent need that are not widows,that the deacons may have to
(10:19):
just jump in and help.
I think the specific questionis if someone wants to become
dependent on the deacons.
These are some principles thatgo into effect, and I think the
reason for why Paul says this toTimothy is the people that are
often hardest to go and ask toare the people who know you the
best, and so I think theprinciple behind that is make
(10:40):
sure that the ones that youwould have to be most humble in
some sense, to go and ask you'vegone through that step, as
we've mentioned?
David Nakhla (10:46):
Yeah, yeah, that's good.
You know, I've had theexperience where, when somebody
has come from the outside askingfor help, we have oftentimes a
part of actually validatingtheir story to ask them for
contact info from a relative,talk to your mother, your father
(11:09):
, your brother, whatever, and ina sense there's an opportunity
there to do what the questioneris asking, to kind of play that
role of connecting them to thefamily.
But it also oftentimes youlearn why the family maybe isn't
helping, because this didn'tjust pop up overnight and
there's a long history here andmaybe there's bad reason that
(11:30):
they're not helping.
But maybe there's good reasonthey're not helping and so it
helps us to involve the familyfrom the standpoint of, as John
Voss was talking about, notenabling in the beginning.
So that's really, really great.
He asks an interesting follow-upquestion.
He says have you ever had toenact church discipline on
(11:52):
family members unwilling toprovide for a widow, since they
are, as he quotes here, sincethey're worse than an unbeliever
?
Yeah, that's interesting.
I don't think I've ever heardof that before.
It probably, you know, itprobably would be worthy of
church discipline if somebodywas actually saying no, I don't
really want to care for thiswidow, even though she's a part
(12:13):
of the church and she's part ofour family.
Yeah, there's demonstrates somesignificant hard-heartedness,
but what do you brothers think?
Or what have you seen?
John Voss (12:21):
I liked seeing that question.
Thankfully, I have neverexperienced it yet, in
particular in the church.
I've experienced it every timefrom those who are outside of
the church, but I have neverexperienced it within the church
itself.
But, that being said, I triedto put myself into that set of
shoes and look at should therebe.
(12:43):
And yeah, I do think that thechurch at that point needs to
step in with at least someadmonishment and want to sit
down and meet.
Now there again, going back towhat I had said, whatever five
minutes ago.
Sometimes there are reasons onwhy you're not helping in
(13:07):
accordance with the help that'sbeing asked of you.
Yeah, right, I mean, enablingis not helping.
Denial at that point, in a caseof addiction or something, or
even when you're living a wronglifestyle, then there does come
that time where denial of therequest is appropriate.
But you need to find thatbackground, the church needs to
(13:29):
find that.
Again, it's worse than anunbeliever, unless it's part of
what I would call intra-familydiscipline.
That's going on.
But again, to me that's also anillegitimate request.
If they're requesting somethingbut they're not going to change
lifestyle, blah, blah, thatkind of thing then I would
(13:51):
consider that to be aninappropriate request as well.
You're asking me to support youand affirm the decisions over
whatever it is you're doing, andI don't.
Adrian Crum (14:03):
And there's a place for that, so I think whenever
people ask questions aboutchurch discipline it's helpful
to take a step back and saythere are many different forms
of discipline.
So the book of Hebrews saysexhort one another as long as it
is called today.
So the very basic initial formof discipline is Christians
mutually encouraging andchallenging each other with
(14:24):
scripture.
Elders then also pray andadmonish and correct people in
informal ways.
And admonish and correct peoplein informal ways.
Formal church discipline is alast resort and it's always as a
response to hard-heartednessand non-repentance.
I think sometimes churchmembers can get the sense you
step out of line and boom, theelders are coming to charge you
(14:45):
with formal church discipline.
As a pastor and my whole lifeI've never seen that happen.
So I think it's helpful to sayif someone hardened in their
resolve not to care for theirfamily in this area which would
be quite surprising that couldbe a very last step.
But there would be many, manyinformal steps of discipline
leading up to that.
David Nakhla (15:08):
Yeah, that's good.
John Voss (15:08):
Thank you, Adrian, go back to the first two verses in
the chapter where Paul issaying when you speak to young
men, you speak respectfully, butyou speak to them as brothers,
to the older women, to yourmother, to the elder like your
father.
There's a respect that youtreat your fellow believers with
(15:32):
as well and initially, yes,it's done in kindness and
encouragement, not necessarilybringing a hammer down on
somebody.
Yeah.
John Stahl (15:46):
Yeah, good is that?
Often we think of the familythat's being asked is in the
previous generation, the parents, right Whereas this is focused
on the children giving help tothe parents.
It seems to me, which you know,we've had that case too, where
(16:06):
we've encouraged that, becausethat's where this particular
family is going to find theirsupport from, and some need of
support is from their children.
They've invested in theirchildren and now they should
expect that they would have thatlove and respect return to them
.
David Nakhla (16:25):
Yeah, thank you.
And just sharing with thelisteners, verse four is but if
a widow has children orgrandchildren, let them first
learn to show godliness to theirown household and to make some
return to their parents, forthis is pleasing in the sight of
God.
So, yeah, certainly in thatculture and even today, your
children and grandchildren arevery much, in a sense, your
(16:45):
social security, those who willbe caring for those older ones
who don't have the means to carefor themselves.
John Voss (16:52):
It's in that verse where Paul actually does point
that out.
I was looking at one of thecommentaries where they talked
about that.
The Pharisaic law was that if Iwanted to give a gift, instead
of giving it to my parents Icould give it to the temple, and
that was okay.
You didn't have to take care ofyour parents and basically that
was wrong.
The korban, yeah, the korban,or yeah, korban, but I also.
(17:15):
Then you look at one of theverses where it says the father
shall lay up for the children,not the children for the fathers
.
Yeah, and I think that you haveto take both of those within
proper context.
Yeah, and that is.
You know, if your folks arehurting, then you need to be
helping them out, and it's notalways monetarily.
We'll get into that maybe lateron in some of these other
(17:37):
questions, but there's otherthings besides, you know, taking
care of some expenses and stufflike that.
David Nakhla (17:44):
That's good.
No, the reminder of that it'snot always monetary.
It's a great reminder that theministry of presence is kind of
a recurring theme that's beencoming up these days.
Let's move to the secondquestion is how do deacons, or
should deacons, deal with thecommand to refuse to enroll
younger widows in verse 11 andbasically refuse to help people
(18:08):
that could change their owncircumstances, such as getting
remarried?
This refusal to enroll youngerwidows, he asks, is Paul
referring to this group ofwidows widely and generally?
Some of these concepts probablyhave to carry over to widowers
as well.
How would you decide what isspecific to that time period and
(18:30):
what's prescribed for today'schurch?
So this concept of refusing toenroll younger widows, the verse
nine let a widow be enrolled ifshe is not less than 60 years
of age, and then lots of otherqualifications that follow that.
Thoughts on that.
John Stahl (18:46):
It's a great question, one that I never
really analyzed much until Iread Cornelius Van Dam's book
the Deacon, because he addressesthis and specifically says
there's a turn, at verse 9, fromspeaking of the widows in
(19:06):
general and how they should behelped, versus this enrollment
of widows, and through hisresearch and interpretation,
he's come to the conclusion thatthis was speaking of widows
that are enrolled for a specificministry of love and service,
probably in particular toyounger mothers, given some of
(19:29):
the experience that they'reexpected to have in caring for
children and helping theafflicted.
So yeah, I would have to goalong with Van Dam's
interpretation, because that'swhat I've been exposed to.
And it seems to make sense.
John Voss (19:47):
Well, even in one of the passages where the woman has
helped raise children and oneof the commentaries that pointed
out didn't say bore children,it said raise children and
basically the implication wasthat had this older member
(20:08):
helped, like you were saying, tothe younger mothers and to the
younger children, had she helped, did she wash the feet of the
serve of the uh servants and thefollowers of Christ?
Was she uh um charitableactions to other members of the
church?
It goes back into the lastquestion we'll get to, I guess,
(20:30):
the godly acts.
But I saw that read the samething about that.
They would be enrolled inservice to the rest of the
church and I think that's onlyfair.
That the younger women aregoing to be raising their
children right, they've gotlittle kids.
They're going to have a hardertime being of service to others
(20:52):
in the church because they'vegot to take care of raising
these kids.
If they're overwhelmed theyneed help.
Perhaps One of the things isthat they get remarried.
That also falls upon the men inthe church too, women getting
married because she does needsupport.
I know of a case where someonemarried somebody for that reason
(21:16):
that she's a widow, she's gotfour or five kids and he knew
the family.
He knew her, he loved her.
He ended up marrying her andtaking care of that family,
raising the family as his own.
I guess that's maybe being partof the church as well, if the
(21:36):
church steps in, whether it'sthrough remarriage or whether
the church itself helps thatwoman.
Who's younger the kids getolder, a little bit older.
She can get another job, shecan get remarried.
I took this as is there otherthings that she can do to help
herself.
There are.
She's an older woman, at 60years old wasn't going to get a
(21:59):
job, especially in those days.
They're lucky if they made itto 60 years old.
But a younger woman could earnmoney by doing whatever, working
for somebody.
Maybe she wove blankets andsold them or something.
But there were ways that shecould help support herself and
they should be encouraged.
(22:20):
People should be encouraged todo that.
That's just part of being aperson, a human being, an adult,
that we take care of ourselvesand have something left over for
others.
So we encourage for that.
Now do we cut her off?
No, because there's going to beplenty of emergency things that
(22:41):
are going to come up wheresomeone I don't think he's
saying you cut them off?
I guess that's my point.
You're not cutting them off,but you're not as liberal in
your giving.
You try to encourage them totake steps on their own as well.
Maybe that's a better way ofputting it.
Adrian Crum (23:02):
So I have a comparison passage, because Paul
says in 1 Corinthians 7, verse37, whoever is firmly
established in his heart, beingunder no necessity but having
his desire and control hasdetermined this in his heart to
keep her as a betrothed, he willdo well.
So then, he who marries hisbetrothed does well, and he who
refrains from marriage will doeven better.
Earlier in the passage, hespeaks about the goodness of
(23:23):
remaining unmarried.
He desires everyone to be as heis, if it's possible.
Again, I think we tend to lookat individual verses in epistles
that are occasional, so they'rewritten to a particular problem
.
We tend to look at the passagesand then make sort of
principles that cover everything.
I think, very specifically, paulis concerned about a church
(23:45):
that is unruly and there aredifferent kinds of problems in
that particular church, andthere I think he's saying in
this case young women who areunmarried.
It can serve them particularlyto seek to marry and to manage
their households.
Give the adversary no occasionfor slander.
I don't think this is thensaying any woman who is under 60
(24:08):
years old, the Bible requiresto marry.
I think there is differentcircumstances and situations by
which it's not necessary, and soI think, again, we want to
compare Scripture with Scriptureand see, based on wisdom, what
a person is being called to.
I think his concern this mayrelate to our last question His
concern is not that godly peopleshould be cared for, like super
(24:33):
, super Christians or reallyremarkable Christians should be
cared for by the church and thenungodly people don't deserve to
be cared for.
I think sometimes it can beread that way.
I really think he's trying todiscern if someone is a believer
, if someone's a Christian, ifthey're a part of your church, a
member in good standing.
We could say here are thethings that are expected of them
(24:54):
, and then if someone isdemonstrating by their life that
they have no commitment to thegospel or Christ, you should
think wisely and differentlyabout that person.
I think that's the principleunder what Paul is saying in
this whole section.
David Nakhla (25:09):
Again, what Cornelius Van Dam in his book
the Deacon talks about is theenrolling, seems to be, into
some sort of class ofindividuals who are serving in a
very specific way in the church.
And he's saying, yeah, theyneed to be a certain type of
widow and there are certaintypes of widows who and he makes
(25:31):
the distinction of the youngerones for various reasons just
don't fit that class of serviceand that's why he says that when
their passions draw them awayfrom Christ, Van Dam is saying
that he's talking about thembeing drawn away from this
enrollment in this service andso don't even set them up for
failure.
(25:51):
In a sense, let's set a bar.
And he says 60 years old.
But as Adrian was saying, veryspecific to these circumstances,
in this particular situationthat young Timothy is finding
himself in, it's always been anintriguing passage to me because
you rarely see in Scripturesuch a black and white specific.
You know, you usually see aprincipal and you know Paul
(26:15):
saying not less than 60 yearsold.
That's just so, so unusual andit is unusual.
So any other thoughts on thatquestion?
Good question, Intriguingpassage.
Let's go to our third question.
He says similar to number twohow should deacons focus on the
godliness of those asking forhelp, and he points to verses 9
(26:41):
and 10.
He says seem to say that theymust have some shown exceptional
godliness to be enrolled.
Yeah, it seems like thisrelates to that enrollment, but
maybe if we can broaden it alittle bit, and he broadens it,
he says if so, how do deaconsdifferentiate between a request
of a very godly member of thechurch compared to a spiritually
lukewarm member or maybe evenan outside believer asking for
(27:04):
help?
John Stahl (27:11):
I don't know if you want to jump there or you want
to start initially with thegodliness, but thoughts I think
certainly a priority is on thehousehold of faith.
That's just a general diaconalprinciple that the household of
faith has priority, with thediaconal resources, over those
outside the church.
But that doesn't preclude weshould look to helping those
(27:32):
outside of the church, becausethat can be a means by which the
love of God is shown to aperson who doesn't know Christ,
but I think similarly, whodoesn't know Christ, but I think
similarly, one motivation thatwe have in helping those within
the body of Christ, within thelocal church, isn't just to help
(27:54):
meet their physical need, it'sfor them to sense that they're
part of the body, that they're avalued part of the body, an
encouragement to their spiritualwalk, if you will.
And so for that reason it'sdifficult to.
I think my tendency as deaconcertainly would be to give
priority to someone who hasshown service and love for the
(28:18):
Lord.
But again, you can't ignore theneeds of those in the body who
may be less mature, because theyneed to be encouraged to be
more part of the body, beencouraged to grow in the walk
with the Lord.
So the distinction between thehousehold of faith and those
(28:38):
outside of the church is prettymuch an easy one to make, right
biblically and emotionally,really as a deacon.
But within the church that's atougher call because everyone in
theory has made that commitmentto the local body to be a
member and we've received themas members, promising to be
(29:02):
concerned for their spiritualand material welfare.
David Nakhla (29:12):
It's certainly been my experience that not so
much the godliness but therequests that come when there's
a sense of entitlement orthere's a sense of impatience,
makes it difficult to ministermercy to individuals.
And I was thinking about.
The corollary to this would bewith the elders.
In Hebrews 3, it talks aboutobeying your elders and submit
to them for they keep and watchover your souls as those who
(29:33):
will give an account.
Let them do this with joy andnot with groaning, for that
would be of no advantage to you.
And in the same way the spiritof those who come with humility
and tenderness, it sure makesthe work of the deacons much
more enjoyable.
And you know, the deacons areindividuals with personalities,
(29:54):
with emotions as well, and to beable to find joy in that work,
by receiving requests inhumility, is a big factor in how
in the service that one willreceive.
I think, just practicallyspeaking.
Adrian Crum (30:06):
It's helpful.
I think we said this in sort ofa brief form earlier in this
podcast, but it's helpful toremember always that it's
typical that when there is somesort of financial breakdown,
there are also lots of spiritualstruggles in different ways,
and I think merely putting aband-aid on something
temporarily without asking heartlevel spiritual questions does
(30:27):
not serve people very well.
So I think, sensing that a callto godliness is really striking
to me, that Paul goes on tospeak about the dangers of love
of money.
So I think there's a connectionbetween godliness and loving
the Lord for the age to come andserving people's souls as you
care for them physically asdeacons, and so asking you know
(30:49):
what things are you worshipingor following after that have put
you into this situation?
And tying we always want to tieword and deed together and
connect those things, and so Ithink it'll take time and it'll
take a lot of wisdom.
It's the reason why the book ofActs, men full of wisdom and the
Holy Spirit are those who areset aside as deacons, and so I
(31:09):
think we need to be patient inasking lots of questions and
then again I think I mentionedthis in the article I wrote for
New Horizons, be able to putourselves in the shoes of people
that are in a hard place andsay I have done foolish stuff.
Also, I don't have my lifetogether and I have done things
that are foolish at times andgot myself in bad situations and
have the compassion of Christto serve people.
(31:31):
So I think you want to keepboth those things together.
David Nakhla (31:34):
Yeah, excellent.
John Voss (31:35):
Excellent points.
I don't think you look at mercyministry as whether or not
someone is earned.
Sometimes we think, oh well,this is a godly person and
they've earned or merited orthey deserve to be treated well.
But like you said, David,actually it's easy to do that.
Yeah.
It's some of those harder casesthat are a little bit more
(32:00):
difficult to deal with.
And then we have to open ourhearts and make sure what we're
doing and why we're doing it.
What are the reasons why we'redoing it?
Yeah, yeah.
David Nakhla (32:13):
Very good discussion, brothers.
Any final thoughts?
Final words.
Adrian Crum (32:20):
I think we've sort of already said this, but the
focus and the center of ourservice, as John Voss was just
saying, has to be leading peopleto Christ, and Christ is the
great deacon that has laid downhis life for us as his people.
And so I think, seeing thediaconal ministry as gospel
opportunity and beginning withurgings and encouragements of
(32:45):
the gospel, concluding with thatleading people, not merely
thinking I need to be sort of afinancial coach for someone who
deals with something that'smerely physical but driving
people to see their need forJesus and need for the gospel I
think it's essential.
John Voss (32:58):
It was a good passage .
I especially like about it isthat it really deals very well
with dealing with the householdof faith and it does show the
priority there that it istowards the household of faith.
That's first and foremost.
I actually had a little note tomyself to remember that the
(33:19):
household of faith comes first,obviously.
But Jesus did do I'll call itone-offs he did it within the
context of giving the word aswell.
But he fed the 5,000.
Once Next morning they were outlooking for him.
They wanted another meal, right, that's what he actually told
them.
You got fed yesterday.
That's why you're here todayand that's what happens when
(33:41):
you're dealing outside of thehousehold.
But we still do works of mercyto the outside, beyond the
household of faith.
I almost consider it a totallydifferent context.
We still want to give the word.
David Nakhla (33:55):
I was going to say , especially when they're
willing to stick around andlisten to the message which they
did with Jesus right.
John Voss (34:01):
And we're going to make you sit through the service
.
Actually, I look at that as anopportunity as well.
They're going to sit throughthe service.
Actually, I look at that as anopportunity as well.
They're going to sit throughthe service, um, and they need
help.
But you know what?
You never know when the lord's,when the holy spirit's going to
poke somebody's heart and wakethem up.
So I don't think there'sanything wrong with doing it.
There is a point and there is areason of offering the cup of
(34:23):
cold water to the unbeliever.
Look at the widow who, yes,lord, but even the dogs eat the
crumbs off the floor.
We are called to give mercy tothe outside world.
It's a different context thatwe give that mercy than when we
give it to the household offaith.
David Nakhla (34:41):
That's a good word to end on.
Thank you for that, adrian andJohn and John, thank you for
joining us today.
Very helpful discussion andthankful for the opportunity to
dive into this important text oncaring for the widows in our
congregations.
Thank you, thank you, welcome.
(35:02):
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our website,thereformedeacon.
org.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again for another episode of theReformed Deacon Podcast.
It's helpful to remember always that it's
typical that when there is somesort of financial breakdown,
there are also lots of spiritualstruggles in different ways,
and I think merely putting aBand-Aid on something
temporarily without askingheart-level spiritual questions
does not serve people very well.
David Nakhla (00:16):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousandDeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
My name is David Nakhla and I'mthe Administrator for the OPC
(00:38):
Committee on Diaconal Ministries.
On today's episode of theReformed Deacon, I'll be joined
by three members of theCommittee on Diaconal Ministries
deacon John Voss, deacon JohnStahl and pastor Adrian Crum.
They've all agreed toparticipate in interacting on a
set of excellent listenerquestions.
I'm sure my brothers here willbe the first to tell you that
(01:01):
they don't pretend to have allthe answers, but hopefully their
interactions on this text willhelp shed some light on the
topic.
And a big thank you to Caleb inPhoenix, arizona, who sent us
these questions.
We'll be sending you a ReformedDeacon t-shirt, caleb, if you
don't have one yet, and othersof you if you have questions or
ideas on a diaconal topic thatyou'd like to hear discussed.
(01:25):
Let us know by emailing us atmail, m-a-i-l mail@
thereformedeacon.
org.
You can find that in the shownotes below.
Great way to get a t-shirt.
They're comfortable.
Okay, brothers, let's getstarted.
Our questions come today from 1Timothy, 5: 3-16.
(01:50):
And I thought it'd be good tobegin by reading that passage,
kind of bringing it fresh intoour minds and then we can
interact with it.
So this is God's word I Timothy5:3- 16.
Honor widows who are trulywidows.
But if a widow has children orgrandchildren, let them first
(02:12):
learn to show godliness to theirown household and to make some
return to their parents, forthis is pleasing in the sight of
God.
She who is truly a widow, leftall alone, has set her hope on
God and continues insupplications and prayers night
and day.
But she who is self-indulgentis dead even while she lives.
(02:37):
Command these things as well,so that they may be without
reproach.
But if anyone does not providefor his relatives, and
especially for members of hishousehold, he has denied the
faith and is worse than anunbeliever.
Let a widow be enrolled if sheis not less than 60 years of age
(02:59):
, having been the wife of onehusband and having a reputation
for good works, if she hasbrought up children, has shown
hospitality, has washed the feetof the saints, has cared for
the afflicted and has devotedherself to every good work, but
(03:19):
refuse to enroll younger widowsfor when their passions draw
them away from Christ.
To enroll younger widows, forwhen their passions draw them
away from Christ.
They desire to marry and soincur condemnation for having
abandoned their former faith.
Besides that, they learn to beidlers, going about from house
to house, and not only idlersbut also gossips and busybodies
(03:41):
saying what they should not.
So I would have younger widowsmarry, bear children, manage
their households and give theadversary no occasion for
slander, for some have alreadystrayed after Satan.
If any believing woman hasrelatives who are widows, let
(04:01):
her care for them.
Let the church not be burdened,so that it may care for those
who are truly widows.
Let her care for them.
Let the church not be burdenedso that it may care for those
who are truly widows.
So, brothers, our firstquestion here that's come to us
is how should deacons interactwith people asking for help when
they have not yet asked theirfamily for it?
(04:23):
Our questioner points out thatverse four basically implies
it's first the family's job andthen the church's job.
But he wonders is it thedeacon's job to go to the family
asking for money on behalf ofthe person, or just telling them
to ask and then come back ifthey refuse.
He wonders what thatinteraction would look like.
(04:43):
Should deacons, how do theyinvolve the family when someone
comes to them asking for help?
John Voss (04:49):
If the person's coming asking for help, the
first thing I would want to dois find out what the issue is,
obviously what help is needed.
Once you've had thatconversation, the very next
question would be have youtalked to your family?
Because family comes first.
Right, it's not necessarily thechurch's responsibility, it's
(05:11):
the family's responsibilitynumber one when God instituted
family.
That's why he instituted thefamily to take care of each
other.
And then we see thecondemnation that Paul says by
you know it's worse than anunbeliever.
So I would be inclined tolisten to the situation but then
(05:32):
immediately ask have you talkedto family?
And I would do that.
If it's my church or whetherit's a walk-in from the street,
I would always ask about familyfirst and then maybe, if it's
pertinent, meaning that by thatI mean that it's a stranger from
off the street the nextquestion is well, what about
(05:52):
your home church?
That would be the next thingtoo.
Yeah.
John Stahl (05:56):
I would definitely agree with that.
That's our practice amongst ourdeacons at our church, amongst
our deacons at our church, and Idon't think there is any.
I'm glad, J ohn, that youbrought up that.
There really is no— I don'tthink there's much difference in
how we make suggestions tothose who have need inside the
(06:21):
church or outside, except Iwould actually challenge them to
ask their family first ineither case, and if it's within
the church and we hear thefamily refuse to help, then I
think it's probably a matter ofbringing the elders, getting the
elders involved, becausethere's other underlying issues
(06:45):
than just meeting physical need.
John Voss (06:48):
And that would be something that we would need to
clarify as well.
I know of individuals wherethere was drug addiction,
alcohol abuse.
The family tried to help.
For years the family helped,but there does come a time when
the family I don't want to sayturns your back, but if they're
(07:09):
not willing to engage with thehelp the family's trying to
offer them, there does come atime.
I think that you have to getthe church involved.
I think there's a time when youmay have to say we have to.
I don't want to say stop, but Iguess ultimately, yeah, you
almost have to stop because youcan't enable.
(07:30):
But with the idea that I'mstopping, I'm not breaking off
communication, I'm just notgoing to give you another 50
bucks or $25 because I'menabling you.
But there does come a time whenI think there is denial of the
request may be necessary, butstill staying in touch and
(07:50):
trying somehow to exhibit loveby staying asked their family
and there's been no help.
John Stahl (08:05):
So we've never had to get the elders involved in a
situation like that at the timethat I've been a deacon.
Yet I do remember one incidentfrom way back that a young
couple had the need and I askedif the family had helped yet,
and they hadn't.
And so I suggested that theyask for help from their parents,
(08:27):
who were part of the church aswell.
And what I remember from thatlong ago was it was positive,
the family did help, but thenthe deacons also helped where
the family couldn't.
So the family and the deaconsfulfilled their duties to this
young couple.
(08:48):
And then, in another case, whichhappened just a few weeks ago,
we had a call from the outsideand, as always, like John Voss
was saying, I suggested to theperson with the need to ask
their family, and typically theresponse is well, they can't
help either, or they've helpedso much already.
(09:09):
I said well, you know, still weask you to try.
You know, you never know whatGod will do.
And so what happened was theirmother helped out enough that
the church didn't even have tohelp.
So that was a success story,which doesn't often happen,
(09:30):
especially with somebody fromoutside the church.
Adrian Crum (09:34):
I think maybe to put the passage in context in
the New Testament, it's a letterfrom Paul to a young pastor
who's struggling through avariety of different problems
and issues, and I think we takeverse eight if anyone does not
provide for his relatives,especially for members of his
household, he's denied the faithand is worse than an unbeliever
.
We take that as sort of aprinciple, randomly, but it
(09:57):
comes in the context ofspecifically asking which widows
should be cared forconsistently by the church, and
I think there will be, to kindof qualify some of the things
that we've said, that John Vossand John Stahl have said, I
think there will be one-offsituations of maybe extremely
urgent need that are not widows,that the deacons may have to
(10:19):
just jump in and help.
I think the specific questionis if someone wants to become
dependent on the deacons.
These are some principles thatgo into effect, and I think the
reason for why Paul says this toTimothy is the people that are
often hardest to go and ask toare the people who know you the
best, and so I think theprinciple behind that is make
(10:40):
sure that the ones that youwould have to be most humble in
some sense, to go and ask you'vegone through that step, as
we've mentioned?
David Nakhla (10:46):
Yeah, yeah, that's good.
You know, I've had theexperience where, when somebody
has come from the outside askingfor help, we have oftentimes a
part of actually validatingtheir story to ask them for
contact info from a relative,talk to your mother, your father
(11:09):
, your brother, whatever, and ina sense there's an opportunity
there to do what the questioneris asking, to kind of play that
role of connecting them to thefamily.
But it also oftentimes youlearn why the family maybe isn't
helping, because this didn'tjust pop up overnight and
there's a long history here andmaybe there's bad reason that
(11:30):
they're not helping.
But maybe there's good reasonthey're not helping and so it
helps us to involve the familyfrom the standpoint of, as John
Voss was talking about, notenabling in the beginning.
So that's really, really great.
He asks an interesting follow-upquestion.
He says have you ever had toenact church discipline on
(11:52):
family members unwilling toprovide for a widow, since they
are, as he quotes here, sincethey're worse than an unbeliever
?
Yeah, that's interesting.
I don't think I've ever heardof that before.
It probably, you know, itprobably would be worthy of
church discipline if somebodywas actually saying no, I don't
really want to care for thiswidow, even though she's a part
(12:13):
of the church and she's part ofour family.
Yeah, there's demonstrates somesignificant hard-heartedness,
but what do you brothers think?
Or what have you seen?
John Voss (12:21):
I liked seeing that question.
Thankfully, I have neverexperienced it yet, in
particular in the church.
I've experienced it every timefrom those who are outside of
the church, but I have neverexperienced it within the church
itself.
But, that being said, I triedto put myself into that set of
shoes and look at should therebe.
(12:43):
And yeah, I do think that thechurch at that point needs to
step in with at least someadmonishment and want to sit
down and meet.
Now there again, going back towhat I had said, whatever five
minutes ago.
Sometimes there are reasons onwhy you're not helping in
(13:07):
accordance with the help that'sbeing asked of you.
Yeah, right, I mean, enablingis not helping.
Denial at that point, in a caseof addiction or something, or
even when you're living a wronglifestyle, then there does come
that time where denial of therequest is appropriate.
But you need to find thatbackground, the church needs to
(13:29):
find that.
Again, it's worse than anunbeliever, unless it's part of
what I would call intra-familydiscipline.
That's going on.
But again, to me that's also anillegitimate request.
If they're requesting somethingbut they're not going to change
lifestyle, blah, blah, thatkind of thing then I would
(13:51):
consider that to be aninappropriate request as well.
You're asking me to support youand affirm the decisions over
whatever it is you're doing, andI don't.
Adrian Crum (14:03):
And there's a place for that, so I think whenever
people ask questions aboutchurch discipline it's helpful
to take a step back and saythere are many different forms
of discipline.
So the book of Hebrews saysexhort one another as long as it
is called today.
So the very basic initial formof discipline is Christians
mutually encouraging andchallenging each other with
(14:24):
scripture.
Elders then also pray andadmonish and correct people in
informal ways.
And admonish and correct peoplein informal ways.
Formal church discipline is alast resort and it's always as a
response to hard-heartednessand non-repentance.
I think sometimes churchmembers can get the sense you
step out of line and boom, theelders are coming to charge you
(14:45):
with formal church discipline.
As a pastor and my whole lifeI've never seen that happen.
So I think it's helpful to sayif someone hardened in their
resolve not to care for theirfamily in this area which would
be quite surprising that couldbe a very last step.
But there would be many, manyinformal steps of discipline
leading up to that.
David Nakhla (15:08):
Yeah, that's good.
John Voss (15:08):
Thank you, Adrian, go back to the first two verses in
the chapter where Paul issaying when you speak to young
men, you speak respectfully, butyou speak to them as brothers,
to the older women, to yourmother, to the elder like your
father.
There's a respect that youtreat your fellow believers with
(15:32):
as well and initially, yes,it's done in kindness and
encouragement, not necessarilybringing a hammer down on
somebody.
Yeah.
John Stahl (15:46):
Yeah, good is that?
Often we think of the familythat's being asked is in the
previous generation, the parents, right Whereas this is focused
on the children giving help tothe parents.
It seems to me, which you know,we've had that case too, where
(16:06):
we've encouraged that, becausethat's where this particular
family is going to find theirsupport from, and some need of
support is from their children.
They've invested in theirchildren and now they should
expect that they would have thatlove and respect return to them
.
David Nakhla (16:25):
Yeah, thank you.
And just sharing with thelisteners, verse four is but if
a widow has children orgrandchildren, let them first
learn to show godliness to theirown household and to make some
return to their parents, forthis is pleasing in the sight of
God.
So, yeah, certainly in thatculture and even today, your
children and grandchildren arevery much, in a sense, your
(16:45):
social security, those who willbe caring for those older ones
who don't have the means to carefor themselves.
John Voss (16:52):
It's in that verse where Paul actually does point
that out.
I was looking at one of thecommentaries where they talked
about that.
The Pharisaic law was that if Iwanted to give a gift, instead
of giving it to my parents Icould give it to the temple, and
that was okay.
You didn't have to take care ofyour parents and basically that
was wrong.
The korban, yeah, the korban,or yeah, korban, but I also.
(17:15):
Then you look at one of theverses where it says the father
shall lay up for the children,not the children for the fathers
.
Yeah, and I think that you haveto take both of those within
proper context.
Yeah, and that is.
You know, if your folks arehurting, then you need to be
helping them out, and it's notalways monetarily.
We'll get into that maybe lateron in some of these other
(17:37):
questions, but there's otherthings besides, you know, taking
care of some expenses and stufflike that.
David Nakhla (17:44):
That's good.
No, the reminder of that it'snot always monetary.
It's a great reminder that theministry of presence is kind of
a recurring theme that's beencoming up these days.
Let's move to the secondquestion is how do deacons, or
should deacons, deal with thecommand to refuse to enroll
younger widows in verse 11 andbasically refuse to help people
(18:08):
that could change their owncircumstances, such as getting
remarried?
This refusal to enroll youngerwidows, he asks, is Paul
referring to this group ofwidows widely and generally?
Some of these concepts probablyhave to carry over to widowers
as well.
How would you decide what isspecific to that time period and
(18:30):
what's prescribed for today'schurch?
So this concept of refusing toenroll younger widows, the verse
nine let a widow be enrolled ifshe is not less than 60 years
of age, and then lots of otherqualifications that follow that.
Thoughts on that.
John Stahl (18:46):
It's a great question, one that I never
really analyzed much until Iread Cornelius Van Dam's book
the Deacon, because he addressesthis and specifically says
there's a turn, at verse 9, fromspeaking of the widows in
(19:06):
general and how they should behelped, versus this enrollment
of widows, and through hisresearch and interpretation,
he's come to the conclusion thatthis was speaking of widows
that are enrolled for a specificministry of love and service,
probably in particular toyounger mothers, given some of
(19:29):
the experience that they'reexpected to have in caring for
children and helping theafflicted.
So yeah, I would have to goalong with Van Dam's
interpretation, because that'swhat I've been exposed to.
And it seems to make sense.
John Voss (19:47):
Well, even in one of the passages where the woman has
helped raise children and oneof the commentaries that pointed
out didn't say bore children,it said raise children and
basically the implication wasthat had this older member
(20:08):
helped, like you were saying, tothe younger mothers and to the
younger children, had she helped, did she wash the feet of the
serve of the uh servants and thefollowers of Christ?
Was she uh um charitableactions to other members of the
church?
It goes back into the lastquestion we'll get to, I guess,
(20:30):
the godly acts.
But I saw that read the samething about that.
They would be enrolled inservice to the rest of the
church and I think that's onlyfair.
That the younger women aregoing to be raising their
children right, they've gotlittle kids.
They're going to have a hardertime being of service to others
(20:52):
in the church because they'vegot to take care of raising
these kids.
If they're overwhelmed theyneed help.
Perhaps One of the things isthat they get remarried.
That also falls upon the men inthe church too, women getting
married because she does needsupport.
I know of a case where someonemarried somebody for that reason
(21:16):
that she's a widow, she's gotfour or five kids and he knew
the family.
He knew her, he loved her.
He ended up marrying her andtaking care of that family,
raising the family as his own.
I guess that's maybe being partof the church as well, if the
(21:36):
church steps in, whether it'sthrough remarriage or whether
the church itself helps thatwoman.
Who's younger the kids getolder, a little bit older.
She can get another job, shecan get remarried.
I took this as is there otherthings that she can do to help
herself.
There are.
She's an older woman, at 60years old wasn't going to get a
(21:59):
job, especially in those days.
They're lucky if they made itto 60 years old.
But a younger woman could earnmoney by doing whatever, working
for somebody.
Maybe she wove blankets andsold them or something.
But there were ways that shecould help support herself and
they should be encouraged.
(22:20):
People should be encouraged todo that.
That's just part of being aperson, a human being, an adult,
that we take care of ourselvesand have something left over for
others.
So we encourage for that.
Now do we cut her off?
No, because there's going to beplenty of emergency things that
(22:41):
are going to come up wheresomeone I don't think he's
saying you cut them off?
I guess that's my point.
You're not cutting them off,but you're not as liberal in
your giving.
You try to encourage them totake steps on their own as well.
Maybe that's a better way ofputting it.
Adrian Crum (23:02):
So I have a comparison passage, because Paul
says in 1 Corinthians 7, verse37, whoever is firmly
established in his heart, beingunder no necessity but having
his desire and control hasdetermined this in his heart to
keep her as a betrothed, he willdo well.
So then, he who marries hisbetrothed does well, and he who
refrains from marriage will doeven better.
Earlier in the passage, hespeaks about the goodness of
(23:23):
remaining unmarried.
He desires everyone to be as heis, if it's possible.
Again, I think we tend to lookat individual verses in epistles
that are occasional, so they'rewritten to a particular problem
.
We tend to look at the passagesand then make sort of
principles that cover everything.
I think, very specifically, paulis concerned about a church
(23:45):
that is unruly and there aredifferent kinds of problems in
that particular church, andthere I think he's saying in
this case young women who areunmarried.
It can serve them particularlyto seek to marry and to manage
their households.
Give the adversary no occasionfor slander.
I don't think this is thensaying any woman who is under 60
(24:08):
years old, the Bible requiresto marry.
I think there is differentcircumstances and situations by
which it's not necessary, and soI think, again, we want to
compare Scripture with Scriptureand see, based on wisdom, what
a person is being called to.
I think his concern this mayrelate to our last question His
concern is not that godly peopleshould be cared for, like super
(24:33):
, super Christians or reallyremarkable Christians should be
cared for by the church and thenungodly people don't deserve to
be cared for.
I think sometimes it can beread that way.
I really think he's trying todiscern if someone is a believer
, if someone's a Christian, ifthey're a part of your church, a
member in good standing.
We could say here are thethings that are expected of them
(24:54):
, and then if someone isdemonstrating by their life that
they have no commitment to thegospel or Christ, you should
think wisely and differentlyabout that person.
I think that's the principleunder what Paul is saying in
this whole section.
David Nakhla (25:09):
Again, what Cornelius Van Dam in his book
the Deacon talks about is theenrolling, seems to be, into
some sort of class ofindividuals who are serving in a
very specific way in the church.
And he's saying, yeah, theyneed to be a certain type of
widow and there are certaintypes of widows who and he makes
(25:31):
the distinction of the youngerones for various reasons just
don't fit that class of serviceand that's why he says that when
their passions draw them awayfrom Christ, Van Dam is saying
that he's talking about thembeing drawn away from this
enrollment in this service andso don't even set them up for
failure.
(25:51):
In a sense, let's set a bar.
And he says 60 years old.
But as Adrian was saying, veryspecific to these circumstances,
in this particular situationthat young Timothy is finding
himself in, it's always been anintriguing passage to me because
you rarely see in Scripturesuch a black and white specific.
You know, you usually see aprincipal and you know Paul
(26:15):
saying not less than 60 yearsold.
That's just so, so unusual andit is unusual.
So any other thoughts on thatquestion?
Good question, Intriguingpassage.
Let's go to our third question.
He says similar to number twohow should deacons focus on the
godliness of those asking forhelp, and he points to verses 9
(26:41):
and 10.
He says seem to say that theymust have some shown exceptional
godliness to be enrolled.
Yeah, it seems like thisrelates to that enrollment, but
maybe if we can broaden it alittle bit, and he broadens it,
he says if so, how do deaconsdifferentiate between a request
of a very godly member of thechurch compared to a spiritually
lukewarm member or maybe evenan outside believer asking for
(27:04):
help?
John Stahl (27:11):
I don't know if you want to jump there or you want
to start initially with thegodliness, but thoughts I think
certainly a priority is on thehousehold of faith.
That's just a general diaconalprinciple that the household of
faith has priority, with thediaconal resources, over those
outside the church.
But that doesn't preclude weshould look to helping those
(27:32):
outside of the church, becausethat can be a means by which the
love of God is shown to aperson who doesn't know Christ,
but I think similarly, whodoesn't know Christ, but I think
similarly, one motivation thatwe have in helping those within
the body of Christ, within thelocal church, isn't just to help
(27:54):
meet their physical need, it'sfor them to sense that they're
part of the body, that they're avalued part of the body, an
encouragement to their spiritualwalk, if you will.
And so for that reason it'sdifficult to.
I think my tendency as deaconcertainly would be to give
priority to someone who hasshown service and love for the
(28:18):
Lord.
But again, you can't ignore theneeds of those in the body who
may be less mature, because theyneed to be encouraged to be
more part of the body, beencouraged to grow in the walk
with the Lord.
So the distinction between thehousehold of faith and those
(28:38):
outside of the church is prettymuch an easy one to make, right
biblically and emotionally,really as a deacon.
But within the church that's atougher call because everyone in
theory has made that commitmentto the local body to be a
member and we've received themas members, promising to be
(29:02):
concerned for their spiritualand material welfare.
David Nakhla (29:12):
It's certainly been my experience that not so
much the godliness but therequests that come when there's
a sense of entitlement orthere's a sense of impatience,
makes it difficult to ministermercy to individuals.
And I was thinking about.
The corollary to this would bewith the elders.
In Hebrews 3, it talks aboutobeying your elders and submit
to them for they keep and watchover your souls as those who
(29:33):
will give an account.
Let them do this with joy andnot with groaning, for that
would be of no advantage to you.
And in the same way the spiritof those who come with humility
and tenderness, it sure makesthe work of the deacons much
more enjoyable.
And you know, the deacons areindividuals with personalities,
(29:54):
with emotions as well, and to beable to find joy in that work,
by receiving requests inhumility, is a big factor in how
in the service that one willreceive.
I think, just practicallyspeaking.
Adrian Crum (30:06):
It's helpful.
I think we said this in sort ofa brief form earlier in this
podcast, but it's helpful toremember always that it's
typical that when there is somesort of financial breakdown,
there are also lots of spiritualstruggles in different ways,
and I think merely putting aband-aid on something
temporarily without asking heartlevel spiritual questions does
(30:27):
not serve people very well.
So I think, sensing that a callto godliness is really striking
to me, that Paul goes on tospeak about the dangers of love
of money.
So I think there's a connectionbetween godliness and loving
the Lord for the age to come andserving people's souls as you
care for them physically asdeacons, and so asking you know
(30:49):
what things are you worshipingor following after that have put
you into this situation?
And tying we always want to tieword and deed together and
connect those things, and so Ithink it'll take time and it'll
take a lot of wisdom.
It's the reason why the book ofActs, men full of wisdom and the
Holy Spirit are those who areset aside as deacons, and so I
(31:09):
think we need to be patient inasking lots of questions and
then again I think I mentionedthis in the article I wrote for
New Horizons, be able to putourselves in the shoes of people
that are in a hard place andsay I have done foolish stuff.
Also, I don't have my lifetogether and I have done things
that are foolish at times andgot myself in bad situations and
have the compassion of Christto serve people.
(31:31):
So I think you want to keepboth those things together.
David Nakhla (31:34):
Yeah, excellent.
John Voss (31:35):
Excellent points.
I don't think you look at mercyministry as whether or not
someone is earned.
Sometimes we think, oh well,this is a godly person and
they've earned or merited orthey deserve to be treated well.
But like you said, David,actually it's easy to do that.
Yeah.
It's some of those harder casesthat are a little bit more
(32:00):
difficult to deal with.
And then we have to open ourhearts and make sure what we're
doing and why we're doing it.
What are the reasons why we'redoing it?
Yeah, yeah.
David Nakhla (32:13):
Very good discussion, brothers.
Any final thoughts?
Final words.
Adrian Crum (32:20):
I think we've sort of already said this, but the
focus and the center of ourservice, as John Voss was just
saying, has to be leading peopleto Christ, and Christ is the
great deacon that has laid downhis life for us as his people.
And so I think, seeing thediaconal ministry as gospel
opportunity and beginning withurgings and encouragements of
(32:45):
the gospel, concluding with thatleading people, not merely
thinking I need to be sort of afinancial coach for someone who
deals with something that'smerely physical but driving
people to see their need forJesus and need for the gospel I
think it's essential.
John Voss (32:58):
It was a good passage .
I especially like about it isthat it really deals very well
with dealing with the householdof faith and it does show the
priority there that it istowards the household of faith.
That's first and foremost.
I actually had a little note tomyself to remember that the
(33:19):
household of faith comes first,obviously.
But Jesus did do I'll call itone-offs he did it within the
context of giving the word aswell.
But he fed the 5,000.
Once Next morning they were outlooking for him.
They wanted another meal, right, that's what he actually told
them.
You got fed yesterday.
That's why you're here todayand that's what happens when
(33:41):
you're dealing outside of thehousehold.
But we still do works of mercyto the outside, beyond the
household of faith.
I almost consider it a totallydifferent context.
We still want to give the word.
David Nakhla (33:55):
I was going to say , especially when they're
willing to stick around andlisten to the message which they
did with Jesus right.
John Voss (34:01):
And we're going to make you sit through the service
.
Actually, I look at that as anopportunity as well.
They're going to sit throughthe service.
Actually, I look at that as anopportunity as well.
They're going to sit throughthe service, um, and they need
help.
But you know what?
You never know when the lord's,when the holy spirit's going to
poke somebody's heart and wakethem up.
So I don't think there'sanything wrong with doing it.
There is a point and there is areason of offering the cup of
(34:23):
cold water to the unbeliever.
Look at the widow who, yes,lord, but even the dogs eat the
crumbs off the floor.
We are called to give mercy tothe outside world.
It's a different context thatwe give that mercy than when we
give it to the household offaith.
David Nakhla (34:41):
That's a good word to end on.
Thank you for that, adrian andJohn and John, thank you for
joining us today.
Very helpful discussion andthankful for the opportunity to
dive into this important text oncaring for the widows in our
congregations.
Thank you, thank you, welcome.
(35:02):
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our website,thereformedeacon.
org.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again for another episode of theReformed Deacon Podcast.
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