July 1, 2025 • 52 mins
In this episode, David Nakhla speaks with Dr. Jim Berry, an elder at Reformation OPC in Morgantown, West Virginia, and Professor and Chair of the Department of Behavioral Medicine and Psychiatry at WVU’s Rockefeller Neuroscience Institute. He’s joined by Mr. Rob Guss, an elder at Calvary OPC in Glenside, Pennsylvania, who shares his powerful testimony of God’s grace in delivering him from addiction.
Addiction brings with it deep brokenness. It can consume a family’s resources and, when discovered, often brings added pressure to the household—resulting in broken relationships, sadness, confusion, and other diaconal needs.
This conversation hopes to equip deacons to better understand how to walk alongside those caught in addiction—emphasizing the importance of presence, listening, and long-term counsel. A practical case study at the end offers a real-world scenario, guiding deacons through how to respond when someone confesses a struggle with addiction. The episode reminds listeners that while the path may be long and difficult, deacons are privileged to come alongside those suffering with lasting hope through the love of Christ.
Referenced in this episode:
Flesh and Thorn: Understanding Addiction as Disease Dr. James Berry; Ordained Servant June-July 2018
You can find all of our episodes at thereformeddeacon.org. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for giveaways and more information. Find other resources on OPCCDM.org. Make sure to send us some feedback on your podcast player or ask a diaconal question by going to OPCCDM.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rob Guss (00:00):
The church can really come alongside these people and
encourage them of the hope thatthey really have, not only of
the hope that's to come, but thehope in the here and now, and
that there is true freedom andtrue forgiveness in Christ.
David Nakhla (00:15):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
My name is David Nakhla.
(00:36):
I serve as the administratorfor the OPC's Committee on
Diaconal Ministries.
Today we're going to focus onthe topic ministering to those
struggling with addiction.
This is a topic that's relevantto deacons because addiction
brings with it so muchbrokenness.
Not only can addictions consumemuch of a family's resources,
but addictions, when discovered,can result in someone being
(00:57):
fired from their job.
This can add pressure on ahousehold that's already in
distress.
It can result in brokenrelationships, bringing hurt and
pain and sadness and confusionto not only the one struggling
with addiction but also to thoseclose to him or her, especially
their family, and this mayoften result in many diacral
needs for deacons to workthrough.
(01:18):
So I'm thankful to be able towelcome two men onto the podcast
who come to us with verydifferent experiences on this
topic.
First, it's our privilege tohave Dr Jim Berry.
Dr Berry is an elder atReformation OPC in Morgantown,
west Virginia.
He's also a professor ofpsychiatry and the chair of the
Department of BehavioralMedicine and Psychiatry at West
(01:41):
Virginia University'sRockefeller Neuroscience
Institute.
I first met Dr Berry at the OPCGeneral Assembly a number of
years ago.
I very much appreciated thecounsel and advice he gave to me
when at that time I wasministering to a friend who was
struggling with an addiction toalcohol.
So I look forward to hearinghis thoughts on this topic.
(02:01):
And secondly, I'm thankful thatRob Guss is able to join the
conversation.
Rob is one of our newly mintedelders at my home church,
calvary OPC in Glenside,pennsylvania, where he and I
together serve as part ofCalvary's session.
Rob and his wife are expectingtheir fourth child in August.
They've been married nine years.
(02:21):
After a number of years, as asoftware engineer, rob sends the
call to ministry and enrolledat Westminster Theological
Seminary, where he also works intheir IT department.
While serving together on thesession, I soon found Rob's
insight to be super helpful,especially in recent occasions
when we've been ministering tovarious members struggling with
addiction and Rob was able toprovide insight because he knows
(02:45):
that struggle firsthand.
I won't steal his thunder,rather I'll let him tell his own
story in his own words.
So welcome brothers, thanks forhaving us.
Pleasure to be here.
Dr Berry, let's start with you,if you don't mind.
You wrote an article back in2018 that was published in the
Ordained Servant, one of theOPC's magazines.
In that article, you describedaddiction in America as quote a
(03:09):
crisis unlike anything we'veseen before, with overdose
deaths outpacing car accidentsand even the peak of the AIDS
epidemic and that article wasseven years ago.
I'm sure it's only gotten worsesince then.
You also point out that ournation's declining life
expectancy is largely driven bypreventable addiction-related
(03:30):
causes such as overdose, suicideand liver failure.
This epidemic is happening allaround us in the church.
So, dr Barrett, you serve as anelder in the church.
How could or should the churchbe engaging this staggering
brokenness in our culture?
Jim Berry (03:47):
Yeah, I firmly believe that we in the church
have a unique opportunity toenter the lives of those
neighbors that God has, in hisprovidence, placed us among that
.
We have that opportunity toenter their lives and be able to
(04:07):
demonstrate the love of Christand to call them to see
themselves as sinners in need ofsalvation and in need of all
that Christ has accomplished forthem.
And the older I get and themore that I am in the church and
(04:28):
the longer I'm in a Reformedfaith, I've come to really rest
in our doctrine of adoption andrecognizing that really our
foundational identity of who weare as children of God, hidden
in Christ.
It makes all the difference inthe world.
And I am really interested inhelping churches be equipped and
(04:52):
see that as part of theirmission is to really enter the
brokenness of the folks thatlive in their communities and
bring them to the riches thatChrist has to offer.
David Nakhla (05:02):
Thank you, Rob.
Would you be willing to shareyour story and how the Lord
brought you to faith?
If there were specific peoplethe Lord used and, if so, how he
used them, even in your battlewith addiction?
Rob Guss (05:17):
Sure.
So I grew up in South Floridain a, I would say, a nominal
Roman Catholic family.
My parents divorced when I waseight years old and my father
left when I was 10.
My sister was 12.
He moved up to Massachusetts tolive with another woman, so
that was the same age that Ibecame an atheist.
(05:39):
I struggled with hearing thewhole idea of our.
Basically the phrase or thesaying that you know your father
in heaven was really repulsiveto me because I equated the two
and I thought that if there wasa God up there and this is the
kind of life that he wasallowing to happen or causing to
happen, however, that worked.
I mean, I'm only 10 at thispoint.
I don't really know how toprocess a lot of this.
(06:01):
I figured I'd be better offwithout him.
Hindsight, the worst decision Iever made started doing drugs
when I was 13.
That only really escalated astime went on and then started
selling drugs to support myhabit, and then I got radically
saved when I was 20.
That's kind of a whole otherstory unto itself, but
essentially it wasn't lookingfor God, I just got blindsided.
(06:23):
One day.
He just made it overwhelminglyclear that he existed and that
he loved me and that he had aplan for my life.
And I also felt, for the firsttime, convicted of my own sin.
And my life turned around likealmost immediately.
The very next day, I stoppedusing drugs completely no rehab,
no desire to use drugs, nowithdrawal symptoms.
(06:46):
And that was 20 years ago.
So it's been a heck of a journeyever since.
So yeah, I don't understand itmyself.
So if you want me to explainhow that all works, I have no
idea, but only by the grace ofGod.
David Nakhla (06:57):
So can you share a little bit more about how you
came to Christ when you were 20?
Rob Guss (07:02):
Yeah, I would say I had somewhat of a psychotic
breakdown of some kind to whereI became indifferent for about
two to three weeks, and by thatI mean I felt no emotions
whatsoever pain, sorrow, joy.
It absolutely terrified me.
So I realized this is probablydue to the fact that I was doing
a lot of drugs and so the onlything I could think of was to
(07:25):
try and go to like a 12-stepprogram.
So I started going to meetingsand those were very eye-opening,
I guess, because you hear somereal horror stories and in light
of the things that I was doingand seeing where I thought I was
eventually going to end up wasreally terrifying.
The one moment that stuck outfor me was so everyone in AA
(07:48):
meetings if you don't know this,we all well, at least I did you
drink a lot of coffee and yousmoke a lot of cigarettes.
Like, you're always going oncoffee breaks and smoking a lot
of cigarettes.
And so during one of thosebreaks this guy came up to me
and I was 19 at the time and Iprobably looked like I was 13 or
14.
I looked pretty young and hegoes hey, kid, how old are you?
(08:10):
And I told him I was 19.
And he goes I've been puttingneedles in my arm longer than
you've been alive and that wasthe real like time kind of stood
still and I just really had toreevaluate my life.
And then, a little time afterthat, basically I started to
read their book, and one oftheir steps which is a real
problem for an atheist like meand, by the way, like I, was a
(08:33):
very hostile atheist too.
I hated the church, I hatedChrist, I hated his people Like
it made me angry.
And one of the steps is theytell you that you have to find a
higher power because you don'thave anything within you to like
overcome this thing.
And so they have this chapterfor agnostics.
And as I'm turning the page toread this chapter, which I like
(08:57):
was really not looking forwardto, I just felt this need to go
to church.
I don't really know how todescribe it, but it just kept
getting stronger and strongerand it wouldn't go away.
I hadn't been in church in avery, very long time.
I just basically got in my carand drove to the closest church.
That was not a Roman Catholicchurch.
I showed up.
It's like 1.30-ish on a Sundayafternoon and even I was
(09:20):
thinking this is insane.
Like even I know, people don'thave church at 1.30 on a Sunday
afternoon.
So this is like what are youdoing here?
But there were a handful ofcars and there was these two
really young girls standing outfront and they're handing out
these flyers.
I've been a musician for a longtime so I was really into music
at that time.
And the flyer basically saidthat they were having a piano
(09:43):
recital.
So I'm like this is great, Ican listen to this piano recital
.
I don't have to listen to somepreacher tell me about Jesus or
sin or anything.
And something happened in thatchurch that I can't really put
into words.
But I experienced somethingthere that I don't know how to
describe.
And the kids there were.
They are so little that theirlittle feet are like hanging off
(10:06):
the bench.
They can't even touch thepedals.
They're playing some of themost beautiful music I'd ever
heard.
So long story short.
As soon as that got done, Ibolted out of that place because
I got really freaked out.
And then I'm leaving the churchand I see out of the corner of
my eye like this flock of allthese white birds that I'd never
seen before.
(10:27):
And the words thank you Godjust came out of my mouth and I
just I just broke down and criedand I just lost it.
And the weird thing was is thatI knew exactly who it was too.
It wasn't just some likegeneric deity or any kind like.
I knew this was Jesus Christ,and I don't know how I knew that
, but that really freaked me out.
(10:48):
So that night, yeah, I gave mylife to him.
I don't, I didn't even knowwhat to tell him, I didn't even
know what to say, but I feltvery convicted of my sin.
I thought he was going to killme.
Honestly, I thought I was goingto die because of all the
terrible things I'd done.
And I just told him I'm a drugaddict, I'm selling drugs.
I don't know what you want withme, but I told him.
I told him I think you have thewrong guy Wow, which, in
(11:12):
hindsight, is borderlineblasphemous.
But yeah, I just told him ifyou want me, you can have me.
And so then the next day,totally different person Wow.
All the glory goes to God.
David Nakhla (11:23):
Thanks.
What an amazing story.
Thanks for sharing that, rob.
So before we dive into how tohelp those struggling with
addiction, can we begin byhelping deacons understand first
how to recognize some of thesigns that someone has an
addiction?
Are there physical things tolook for or behavioral?
(11:46):
I was just talking with anotherelder at General Assembly and
he was talking about a man whowandered into the back of church
and he interacted with the guyand the conversation was very
strange.
So I think that could happen inany of our churches, right,
somebody wanders in the backdoor or maybe somebody comes
asking for help.
So how do we recognize thatsomeone is high or under the
(12:08):
influence of something?
And once we suspect that, arethere do's and don'ts that you
would advise a deacon any stepsto take that type of thing?
Jim Berry (12:19):
Yeah, I think it's important to recognize that.
You know addiction exists on acontinuum.
Yes, right, so there will ormay certainly be people and
circumstances that are at yourfront door.
Somebody comes into thesanctuary who is obviously
impaired and obviouslyintoxicated and I think you know
most people would be able torecognize wow, there's something
(12:41):
wrong with this person.
Don't know what it is exactly,but it seems like there is
something amiss.
And they might have alcohol intheir breath, they might smell
of, you know, cannabis orsomething else, and then you're
like okay, I think I know what'shappening here.
You know, in that case it canbe a futile experience trying to
, you know, reason with somebodywho is intoxicated.
(13:03):
And so I think at that point,when you're encountering and
you're in that same space withsomebody, just making sure
they're safe and making surethat folks around them are safe
too, but that's not the time tostart getting into the deep
theological questions about whothey are, what they're doing and
all of that stuff.
But it's really just hey, whatcan I do to make sure this
person's safe and maybe andstart a relationship, stuff,
(13:24):
right, but it's really just hey,what can I do to make sure this
person's safe and maybe start arelationship?
But I would say that what ismore common in our churches is
what's hidden as far asaddiction is concerned.
Right, and too often ourchurches are like our social
media posts, where we like toput on there, you know, sort of
our facade and what we want toproject as our lives and that
we're all together or we havethings all together and we live
(13:47):
these perfect lives.
But in reality, right, there'sa lot of brokenness underneath
that, and usually church isgoing to be the last place that
it shows up that somebody isreally struggling with an
addiction problem.
And you know signs over timeespecially their spouses or
their children, or maybe eventheir parents, are going to
their homes and take them out tolunch and dinner as deacons and
(14:28):
have coffee or whatever it is,just to get to know them, and
then you'll start realizingwhat's underneath the surface.
David Nakhla (14:36):
Really good.
Anything you want to add tothat, Rob.
Rob Guss (14:38):
Yeah, I would just say similar to what Dr Berry was
talking about.
I think a lot of people havethis false impression that when
you hear the word addiction,they immediately think of like,
the absolute extreme, basicallywithout realizing that you know
there's this like idea of likeand I was one of them like a
(15:00):
functional drug addict.
I mean, I kept a full-time job.
None of the people I workedwith had any clue I was doing
drugs in the bathroom.
They had no idea.
I think the other issue that canmake it really hard to find or
to detect in people is, I thinkaddicts, serious addicts, are
(15:21):
professional liars really andthey're very, very good at
manipulating people.
Situations Like, for example, Ialways dressed appropriately.
I was still yes, ma'am, no,ma'am, thank you, please, and
thank you Like.
You would have had no idea thestuff that I was doing.
My parents had no idea, none ofmy siblings did Some of them
(15:42):
even my friends had no idea.
Idea, none of my siblings didSome of them, even my friends
had no idea.
So it can be really difficultto detect if you want to kind of
stay hidden, and I think that'ssomething important to keep in
mind too, is that we tend to beI shouldn't say we, because I'm
not an addict anymore, I've beenclean for 20 years but you can
(16:03):
manipulate people a lot and youget very, very good at putting
that mask on and making it seemlike everything's okay.
Coming across people who arelike high in the moment is
probably going to be less oftenthan the people who are just
using on a regular basis.
Another thing, too, I thinkyou're going to come across,
which is probably the mostdifficult hurdle, is you'll come
(16:27):
across people who probablydon't even recognize or realize
that they themselves are addicts.
You know, they just think that,oh, it's totally normal for me
to drink x amount every day,like this, just, it just becomes
a way of life, you know, and sothey might not even recognize
or realize that they have a realproblem.
You know, this is just likethis is just what I do, you know
, and so they might not evenrecognize or realize that they
have a real problem.
You know, this is just likethis is just what I do.
(16:49):
You know, it's like brushingyour teeth you get dressed every
morning, take a shower.
Whatever Using becomes likeevery day, it just becomes a
part of you.
So that could be another thingI think you come across quite a
bit.
David Nakhla (17:04):
Dr Bear, can you talk about what?
Is that tipping point whensomething is defined as an
addiction?
Jim Berry (17:10):
Yeah, I mean you can look at the clinical definition
of that and that's basicallythat.
Have you been using to such adegree that it's caused
clinically significant problemsthat you are no longer able to
control?
And I like what AlcoholicsAnonymous and Narcotics
(17:30):
Anonymous how they put it isthat your life has become
unmanageable.
So you've been captured by thissubstance, has created a life
for you that has really becomeunmanageable and taking you in
directions that you just don'twant to go, and you realize that
you've been become powerlessover it and you really can't
change Right.
And so that starts getting into the far end, the deep end of
(17:54):
the spectrum.
However, you can also look at itas more on the shallow end of
the spectrum, where somebody isdrinking, for instance, in a way
that is unhealthy, where they,you know, maybe are driving
intoxicated or maybe they'vedrank to such a degree that they
have trouble getting up forwork the next day, and this is
(18:15):
happening on occasion, that'smore, you know, more and more
frequent they're not showing upfor their kids soccer game
because they're going out to thebar.
I mean, these are things right?
Are you giving up activitiesthat are really important to you
and the people around you, andas those become more and more
prevalent and start piling on,then it becomes deeper and
(18:35):
deeper there in the pool of thecontinuum.
David Nakhla (18:38):
That's helpful, thank you.
So, dr Berry, can you talk tous about what the Bible says
about this topic and maybe evenhow that framework or that
understanding helps shape yourteaching on the subject in your
practice?
Jim Berry (18:51):
Yeah, I think you know foundationally, you know we
understand according toScripture, that we live very,
very messy lives and that welive in a very broken world.
Right, this is not the way wewere created to live right, In
full fellowship with, first andforemost, God and then in full
fellowship with our fellowhumans, but because of original
(19:15):
sin and our fallenness that weare now broken and we live in a
broken world and we are waitingour full redemption and glory.
So I mean, foundationally, ourhearts are deceptive, Our hearts
cling to things that areagainst God.
And you know, one of the thingsthat I've always appreciated
(19:37):
about, even early on, and whatattracted me in medical school
to working with folks who hadaddiction, was to me I saw boy
sin incarnate in my own sinincarnate and could recognize
wow, in these lives they've beencaptured in such a way of their
hearts, their desires, thatthey hate doing what they're
(19:58):
doing, but still they keep doingit because they just feel like
they have to do this in order tolive.
And to me that was just veryprofound early on and I could
see myself in that.
I could see areas where I fallshort of you know what I knew to
be right and what I knew to betrue, and so I wanted to learn
(20:18):
more about that and see howpeople got better as well.
You know, addiction is onemanifestation of our fallenness,
but for those of us who don'tmeet the diagnoses necessarily
or are that extreme, all of usgive ourselves over to things
that we know we shouldn't bedoing, and thank God.
Then we have Christ, who boreall of our brokenness, all of
(20:42):
our sinfulness, and has redeemedour body and our soul, and so
now our flesh in Him is beforethe Father.
When the Father sees the Son,he's seeing us, and that gives
all of us, and should give usall, hope, no matter what we've
been through, no matter whatwe've done, that Christ has
borne it all for us on the cross, and not only that, but then
(21:06):
equips us, through His Spiritand the gifts that we've been
given through the church, tolive lives that are comforting
lives and to live lives in glory, even knowing that as we groan
and as we wait for our fullredemption here, we can be
comforted, and we can comfortone another and always live in
that hope that there will be aday where all of our addictions
(21:27):
and all of our trials will beput to rest and we'll live in
full glory and joy and peace.
David Nakhla (21:32):
Rob, do you have any thoughts as to whether
there's a role that the churchcan play in an addict's
transformation?
Rob Guss (21:41):
Yeah, well, I would say, first and foremost, the
solution that they really needis the gospel, and that's the
only thing that will actuallybring them true freedom and
deliverance, because, at the endof the day, this is a sin issue
.
You know, one of the thingsthat I struggled with when I was
going to those meetings and Ithink there's a lot of good that
(22:02):
can be gleaned from an AA andall these other is you always
introduce yourself.
You say hi, I'm Bob, I'm anaddict, and even if you've been
clean for like 20, 30 years,they just tell you that you're
going to be.
This is a disease, you're goingto be addicted to this thing,
and I didn't like that.
I was like I don't want to beaddicted to AA meetings or NA
meetings for the rest of my life, like I don't want to choose,
(22:24):
swap one addiction for another.
I want to be done with thisnonsense, and I think only in
the gospel do you have that, andI think we need to encourage
our brothers and sisters who arestruggling is that the gospel
is not just a pardoning of yoursins, but there's power to it to
where you can truly be set freeand delivered from it, and
(22:46):
addiction is one of those thingsthat it can get really dark
really quick and you can kind ofadopt this mindset of I'm just
going to be this way for therest of my life, I'm just going
to have to deal with this thingforever, until I'm dead,
basically.
But the church can really comealongside these people and
encourage them of the hope thatthey really have, not only of
(23:09):
the hope that's to come, but thehope in the here and now, and
that there is true freedom andtrue forgiveness in Christ.
We should also be encouragingthem that you can adopt this
real sense of self-hatred whenyou struggle with this disease,
sense of self-hatred when youstruggle with this disease.
It reminded me when he wastalking.
(23:30):
We just heard a sermon on this,romans 7, where Paul says I
don't do the things I know I'msupposed to do.
I do the things I know I'm not,and he says who can deliver me
from this body of death?
Like that is literally thetagline of every drug addict
I've ever met, when you come torealize that I hate this thing
so much but you just feel likethere's no escape.
(23:53):
It's like ideal texts that takethem to.
Here's an apostle, here's a manwho's given revelation from
Jesus himself, who's strugglingwith things, and so, granted, he
probably wasn't struggling withdrug addiction, but at the end
of the day, you can sympathizewith him that if someone like
the Apostle Paul is saying words, by the way, that are inspired
(24:16):
by the Holy Spirit and writtendown in Scripture, how much more
can we be encouraged by thosethings as well?
I would say the church has theonly true source of
encouragement for people who arestruggling with this, because,
at the end of the day, it's aheart issue, it's a sin issue,
and only the gospel has thesolution for sin issues.
Jim Berry (24:38):
Yeah, I would say a couple of things in response to
that too.
One is yeah, I don't know.
I mean, maybe Paul did sufferfrom addiction.
What I think is so cool aboutthe text is, right, it says, you
know, we don't know what thethorn in his flesh was.
Right, we have some suspicions.
But what I think is sowonderful and beautiful about it
is that, you know, we could seeour own thorns in our flesh and
(25:00):
maybe maybe Paul suffered fromthat.
I don't know, but we know hesuffered from something.
It was a fleshy thing,obviously, from that I don't
know, but we know he sufferedfrom something.
It was a fleshy thing,obviously.
One of the other nuances I wouldsay about, you know, I love
Rob's experience and what he wasable to just enjoy, the healing
that he had.
But also, you know, I thinkit's so important what he talked
(25:25):
about as far as the guilt andthe shame that people experience
when they are going throughthis.
And you know, I thinkculturally we put a particular
emphasis on addiction as moreshameful, you know, than some
other things where I'm not surethe Bible would right.
We tend to minimize our ownsins, right, and then completely
stigmatize others and it justseems like addiction is one of
those things where our cultureand even our churches would put
(25:46):
that in a different category ofsin.
And I would also say that therewill be people, and a lot of
people that I work with to thisday who are faithful Christians,
who continue to wake up everyday and still think about using
and struggle with the fact thatsomething is in their brain and
(26:07):
their bodies, maybe their heart,that still wants to use.
And so I don't want anybody toget the impression coming away
right from our conversation thatif that wasn't removed from
them, that somehow they're lessChristian or they should be
feeling guilty about that andall of that stuff right, or they
should be feeling guilty aboutthat and all of that stuff,
(26:28):
right.
But to recognize that there area whole bunch of people who
still just struggle every day,and some every moment, with the
cravings and the feelings andall of this stuff.
But they are still very much assaved as I am and they're still
very much a child of God asanyone else who calls upon the
name of Christ, and they have totrust that God is still working
(26:51):
in them and that God stillloves them and there will be a
day when that will all go away.
But it might not be the side ofglory or a church member.
David Nakhla (27:11):
Interacting with someone struggling with
addiction might be uncomfortableor even find it intimidating to
face.
Some may think I don't want mykids exposed to this or worry
that it's risky to be involvedin ministry to somebody who is
struggling.
You know worry that it's riskyto be involved in ministry to
somebody who is struggling.
Do you have any words ofcaution or are there
(27:36):
misconceptions that deaconsmight have on the topic and then
maybe any advice to overcomesuch fears and enable us to
engage practically and wisely inhelping?
Jim Berry (27:44):
I think first and foremost is encourage deacons to
follow the pattern of Christ.
And Christ went to the broken,went to the outcasts of society
and opened himself up to themand entered their suffering and
was vulnerable before them.
(28:04):
And so I think, as I readscripture and see who Christ was
and is that's what he's callingus to do, it's certainly safe
to stay away from anything wedon't understand, and certainly
our natural tendencies is toavoid suffering and, for those
who are ashamed, to avoid themas well.
(28:25):
And I would encourage ourdeacons and members and children
to say, hey, you know we needto follow Christ and try to
minister to people.
That's why you know we're here.
But also, you know, be wise inhow you do that.
And just because somebody has anaddiction doesn't necessarily
mean that they are going to actimmorally or, you know, somehow
(28:51):
put you or your children indanger.
Right, you got to be wise.
And so if you know thatsomebody has, is really
struggling with addiction, whoisn't in recovery, that you know
thinking about even drivingwith them or letting your kids
drive with them, that's onepractical thing that should come
to mind, right.
And if somebody is getting high, you don't want, you don't want
(29:13):
to put anybody else at risk forthat.
For instance, you know, likelike Rob said, dishonesty can be
really part of the problemsthat people start utilizing to
be able to live their lives, theproblems that people start
utilizing to be able to livetheir lives, and so you know
being wary about loaning moneyand other things that can put
the people at risk.
That's great.
Rob Guss (29:34):
Yeah, I guess one thing I would say for deacons
people struggling with addictionyou probably have to be more
proactive than you're probablyused to, in the sense that
addicts don't typically, like Imentioned earlier, there can be
a lot of self-hatred and shameand all of these things, so
you're not exactly going to bevery forthcoming with this and
(29:56):
seeking forgiveness.
Well, they say, you know, thefirst step is admitting you have
a problem.
That's a really, really hardstep to overcome.
It's the reason why it's thefirst one.
Just getting there is tricky.
So I think, similar to what DrBerry said earlier, just being
in the lives of your people andespecially talking to the people
(30:18):
around the person who you maysuspect, they'll probably have a
better idea.
But it's also one of thosethings where these are really
lost sheep and they're going tostray a lot and it's going to
require, I would say, a morehands-on, a proactive approach,
whereas maybe other sins thatpeople are struggling with
they'll be more forthcoming andgetting help and assistance with
(30:40):
.
I would be reluctant to seeaddicts who are really going to
be, unless they've hidden rockbottom and that's that would be
great and then they've woken upsaying I just need help.
But the whole process leadingup to that point.
So just being aware of yourpeople and the only way to know
that is just to be in theirlives, you know.
And then the lives of thepeople who are in their lives.
Jim Berry (31:03):
Yeah, rob, I couldn't agree more really put his
finger on it on.
An important part of this isthat the folks who are
struggling with addiction, shameis compounding upon shame and
they're unlike, maybe, otherpeople in the church who are
going to reach out to thedeacons for help because they
need assistance for some reason.
Right, these people are goingto be running away and they are
(31:26):
not going to want this to cometo light at all unless they've
really really gotten to thatpoint where they, like Rob said,
they've hit rock bottom orwhatever it is, where they
recognize, all right, I've gotto do this, but otherwise it's
all right If you start smellingthat this person has a problem
trying to just spend more timewith them and be gentle with
(31:48):
them and have that relationshipand develop that trust and be
the type of deacon who isprojecting, who is living a life
that seems to be open andwilling to let somebody confess
to and know that.
Okay, I'm not going toautomatically judge you,
disqualify you, whatever it isright, I'm not going to shame
(32:09):
you further, but I'm going to bethere and listen to you and I'm
going to be there as a sinnertalking to a sinner.
That, I think, is so, soimportant is not putting
yourself or again giving theimpression that somehow you're
above this person.
But yeah, wow, you're dealingwith this and, like Rob said,
it's so hard.
The three hardest words to sayis I need help.
(32:30):
And once they say that is boy,there's the window of
opportunity to do what you canand say you know, boy, it must
have been really hard for you tofinally come to admit that.
I know how hard that can be andI'm going to be there for you.
I'm going to love youunconditionally and let's try to
help you with this.
David Nakhla (32:46):
So can you to follow up on that?
Then what does that?
When they say I need help, whatdoes that help look like?
Jim Berry (32:53):
First and foremost I would say is being with that
person and saying I'm going tobe with you.
Thank God, you came to me.
God did not create us to besolitary creatures, but he
created us to be in relationshipwith one another.
That is the beauty of thechurch, and I'm going to be with
you, I'm going to do what I canto help you and I'm going to be
with you until the end.
(33:13):
First and foremost, that's whatpeople need to hear and say
listen, there's nothing you cantell me.
That's going to make me thinkless of you as a human being,
and you know I struggle withthings, you struggle with things
.
Let's try to go forward, then,in having a conversation as far
(33:33):
as what is it that you actuallyneed and who can we bring
alongside us to get you evenmore help?
And trying to find out.
You know, ask as many questionsand be as curious as you can
and to learn their story so youknow how to best help them.
Yeah, I think one of the thingsand maybe Rob will disagree or
agree, but sometimes, you know,coming in with all the answers
(33:56):
can not be a good way toapproach this, because it's like
, unless you're like Rob, who'veactually lived the life of
somebody with addiction.
You just don't.
You really don't know what itis.
And if you come at it like youthink you do, because you've
read some books or heard somethings or you just have your own
opinions, I mean people arejust going to lose trust in you
(34:17):
immediately or quickly and andthen it can create more of a
barrier for them to open up more.
So I guess humility, curiosityand humility, I think, are key
aspects of what to develop as weapproach those who are
suffering.
David Nakhla (34:33):
Where does that hit the point of enabling?
Jim Berry (34:36):
So you know it depends what you mean by
enabling.
You know, if you continue togive somebody money, for
instance, so they can go out andbuy a bag of heroin, you know
that would be enabling.
We all need to be very carefulabout that because that is not
going to help somebody but couldactually put them at risk and
actually kill them.
(34:56):
So you have to be careful aboutthat.
But I would never, ever, ever,say that being with somebody,
opening up your life, beingavailable to them, is ever
enabling, and that is, again, Ithink that's what we're called
to do.
And even when they continue andthey will, because that's part
(35:16):
of the process of addiction evenwhen they continue to fail,
when they continue to mess up,it's all right.
What can we learn from thesemistakes?
And what do you do to get to goforward?
Right, so you can still beavailable for somebody and be
there, but not enable them tocontinue the behavior that they
(35:37):
have.
It's going to be harmful forthem.
But at the same time, guys,right, it doesn't mean that you
don't put in particularguardrails and limits, because
we all have our own limits too.
It doesn't mean that you cancall me at three in the morning,
every night, when you're drunkand you are not allowed to do
that, right, that's, that's offlimits.
(35:58):
If you need to talk to me,right, and it's an emergency,
then you know, then we can talkabout that.
But otherwise, you know you canset a.
You know time is okay.
This is when we can talk, andthese sort of things too.
So I don't want to give theimpression that you just have to
be completely 24 hours a day,seven days a week, available to
somebody and that folks can takeadvantage of that too.
Rob Guss (36:21):
Yeah, I think one thing I would add is when
someone is forthcoming or theyget to the point where they
admit that they need help,probably a good thing for you to
just keep in mind that you'rein this thing for the long haul.
Generally, I mean, I personallybenefit from deacons for other
(36:41):
reasons, but, for example, thisis not like someone lost their
job and they just need helppaying the rent for a couple
months.
This is a process and theprocess looks different for
everyone.
Testimony a whole lot, becauseI don't want to give the
(37:05):
impression that like I'm in theanomaly here and I don't even
like telling addicts about mystory because then they can
easily think, well, why not me,why did it happen?
So it's typically a very, verylong road and, similar to what
Dr Barry was saying, I think weshould never underestimate Mark
Bube talks about this a lot theidea of ministry, of presence,
(37:26):
of just physically being intheir life, walking with them,
and you need to recognize thatthrough this process they are
going to fall a lot, like it'snot just like, hey, I need help,
help, and then boom, they'renever going to use again, like
they're gonna keep going back tothat, you know, rolling around
(37:47):
in the mire or whatever likeit's, they're gonna relapse.
It just takes a tremendousamount of patience, a tremendous
amount of patience, and there'sreally no shortcut, you know,
unless the lord just radicallyintervenes.
It's just one of those thingswhere they could, like Dr Barry
was saying, they very well couldbe struggling with it for the
(38:09):
rest of their lives and thinkingabout it and all these other
things.
As fits, all solution or everyaddict is like its own unique
case, you know.
So I would also stress theimportance of prayer for
(38:30):
something like this.
This is not something that anyone of us is capable of handling
, that we need the Lord and theHoly Spirit to give us the
wisdom and the grace and thepatience to do it.
Jim Berry (38:42):
Yeah, it makes me think when you were talking
there, rob, is a story I heardabout Johnny Cash I think it was
you too, and Bono said thisstory.
So you may know that Johnny Cashhad a lot of demons in his life
, and certainly drug addictionand alcohol addiction were some
of them, and he got saved andultimately he was able to be in
(39:02):
recovery and have a long timesober.
And I think it was Bono and theguys from UT who went to visit
him at his home in his lateryears and he prayed before their
meal and talked about, you know, the delivery of Christ and the
joy he has in the salvation,something of that nature.
And then after the prayer, Ithink Bono said something like
(39:26):
well, that was a reallybeautiful prayer.
And Johnny Cash said yeah, Isay that, but I want you to know
, it's really important to know,that I still think about using
every day, and to me that wasjust like very, very apropos and
is typical for a lot of thepeople who are still out there,
who have been saved but stillstruggle with this.
David Nakhla (39:49):
So our podcast Real World Cases episodes are
some of our most popular and wethought maybe we could discuss a
scenario having to do withaddiction and have each of you
give your thoughts as to how todeal with it.
So here it is.
Steve, a 42-year-old man who'sbeen a member of your OPC church
(40:10):
for about 11 years approachesyou a deacon after the Sunday
evening service.
He's a quiet, clean-cut,reserved guy who usually sits
near the back with his wife andtwo teenage daughters.
Clean-cut, reserved guy whousually sits near the back with
his wife and two teenagedaughters.
He works in IT, he servesoccasionally as an usher and he
(40:30):
has attended a midweek men'sgroup off and on for years.
You've known Steve on a surfacelevel for over a decade Polite
conversations, a few prayerrequests.
He's friendly but neverparticularly sociable.
After hesitating and glancingaround to make sure no one else
is listening, steve admits toyou that he's been struggling
with alcohol.
What started as casual drinksafter work turned into nightly
(40:52):
binges.
He believes he's hidden it fromhis family for years, but
recently his wife confronted him.
He seems scared and ashamed andadmits he doesn't know what to
do next.
He says he believes God canchange him, but he's prayed and
not had relief.
At one point he seems tobacktrack a bit from remorse to
justification, asking if youthink he's making too much of it
(41:16):
.
You're the first person he'sever told.
How should this deacon respond?
Jim Berry (41:22):
Yeah, I would go back to something I was saying
earlier.
The first response would be tosay hey, Steve, listen, I know
how hard it must have been foryou to even talk to me about
this, so I just want you to knowhow grateful I am that you
trusted me enough to share whatyou're dealing with right now.
(41:43):
And this must be very, verydifficult for you.
So that's how I would approachit and start it and then say
that I believe that help isavailable and that I am
convinced people get better allthe time.
Let's start meeting togetherand help me understand more of
your story and what's beenhappening, and can we, you know,
(42:08):
commit to getting together on aregular basis and talking more
about this?
Then I also might say is thereanyone else that you trust that
I could you know talk to andmaybe bring in to our team here
as we try to work together?
If not, that's okay, it can beyou and me right now, and maybe
(42:29):
would it be possible to talk toyour wife also, who's already
brought up some concerns withyou.
I think that's how I wouldapproach it initially.
That's great.
Rob Guss (42:39):
Yeah, I don't really know if I could say anything
better than that.
That's pretty spot on, just tokind of echo the fact of first
encouraging them, of just howmuch courage it takes for them
to get to that point, becausethey've probably been thinking
about that and ruminating overthat for a very significant
(42:59):
amount of time.
I think you also need torecognize the weight of the
responsibility now that's onyour shoulders, because they've
been willing to open up to youabout this and so you're dealing
with a very, very fragileperson, I would say, and the
fact that they've openedthemselves up to you
(43:22):
specifically is that's a veryweighty matter.
And so you need to be real wiseand real careful with what you
say, what you don't say and howyou kind of move forward.
And then, similar to what DrBarry said, you need to be more
involved in their lives,frequent kind of meetings,
trying to understand what'sgoing on.
And then I would also say atsome point, the sooner the
(43:44):
better if you can get otherpeople involved.
This is not like a lone wolfsituation where it's like, oh,
he came to me, so I can bearthis, and it's like we can get
the pastors involved.
Definitely want to get the wifeinvolved, you want to be having
conversations with her, andthen just remember you're in
this thing for the long haul.
It's going to probably take awhile and then, as things
(44:05):
progress, you can haveconversations about treatment
programs or what that looks like, but again, I think it's just a
presence thing.
Just now, whether you want it ornot, the Lord has put this
person in your life and you'vebeen tagged, you're it.
And so now you, especially as adeacon, put this person in your
life and you've been tagged,you're it.
(44:25):
And so now you, especially as adeacon, as a you know, a
minister in God's house, youhave this immense responsibility
and weight upon your shouldersto walk alongside this brother,
and it's a privilege.
Honestly, you shouldn't feellike a burden, like, oh man, why
did he pick me, why?
No, that's a gift.
You know, there's somethingthat that man saw in you and the
(44:48):
Lord's been preparing you, andthe Lord ordained this thing to
happen.
That's what you need to remembertoo.
It's not like the addict justwent eeny, meeny, miny moe, and
even if he did, it's stillprovidential at the end of the
day.
So it is a gift and it's notgoing to be easy, I would say,
but you will get, lord willing,a front row seat of the gospel
and the grace of God at work insomeone's life.
You will just see it manifesttime and time and time again,
(45:12):
and it should be a source ofencouragement to you because,
hopefully you'll remember, thisis why I serve in the church.
This is why I serve as a deaconis because I get to be the
hands and feet of Christ and I'mliterally seeing my Lord use my
broken hands and my feet ofclay to minister to this person
and I'm watching sanctificationhappen right before my eyes,
(45:34):
like it's pretty wild.
It's pretty amazing and you getto see that it's incredible.
Jim Berry (45:42):
Yeah, one of the things that attracted me, even
as a medical student, to workingwith this population is I saw
people get better in ways Ididn't see in other areas of
medicine, and a lot of timesthere's sort of this myth or
stigma out there that you know,addiction is just people are
always going to be at the bottomof the barrel, but that's just
not.
The reality is that I got tosee that early on in my medical
(46:05):
career is that actually nopeople got better all the time
and not only got their livesbetter and got healthier, but
transformed, and dramatically,and they became better husbands,
better wives, better employees,employers, citizens and all of
that stuff.
One other thing that comes tomind in that first experience is
, too, it's okay to say I don'tknow right and that I don't have
(46:28):
all the answers.
Boy, this is a lot, steve,you're dealing with a lot.
I wish I knew all of theanswers.
I wish I knew you know what todo to help, but I'm not going to
tell you that I do because Idon't.
This is uncharted territory forme and I think people will
really respond to that a lotbetter than trying to pretend
that you know what you're doingor have all the answers and just
(46:51):
say let's try to find theseanswers together.
Another thing that comes tomind is if you can already have
like Rob is a great example ifyou can already have some people
picked out in your church withlived experience from addiction
to be able to bring on as partof the team and connect with too
, is they're going to be able tomeet with them in a way that
(47:12):
you just don't, because of whatthey're, what you, what they've
gone to, so they're going to beable to relate to things and
think about how those thoughtpatterns they used to be in and
what's going to be harmful.
And then a third thing thatprobably comes to mind is making
sure that you've familiarizedyourself with whatever
professional services you havein your community and so that
you can have that at the readywhen you need that and when the
(47:34):
time comes to.
Rob Guss (47:35):
You made me think of something else, dr Barry is I
would say especially initially,as those early conversations are
being had is I think it wouldbe very wise and do a lot of
good for you to do morelistening than talking.
Yes, yes, you also need to becareful with like hammering them
(47:58):
down with the law.
Don't get me wrong.
It's a sin issue that needs tobe addressed.
But I can almost guaranteethey're well aware of the depth
of depravity and sin thatthey're in and they don't need
to be reminded and come off insome self-righteous way,
especially if it's happening ina church.
They're coming to a deacon,they know.
(48:20):
So that time needs to come.
But initially, I think youreally need to exercise
tremendous humility and just letthem do as much of the talking
and you just be a person presentand listen to them, not only
because you have no idea whatthey're going through and you
definitely don't have all theright answers, but they just
(48:41):
need someone to listen to them.
Because the one thing aboutaddiction from my own experience
, I mean all sin is selfish, butaddiction is very you go real
deep inside.
So you're not talking about alot of stuff, you're suppressing
, you're constantly hiding stuffpushing it down, and that stuff
needs to come out over time,because that's the stuff that
(49:05):
causes you to do the drugs inthe first place.
So, yeah, doing a lot morelistening, I would say, even if
you feel like you're notactually doing anything and
you're just literally sittingthere and just listening, you're
doing a lot more than you couldprobably ever imagine.
You know, you don't have to begiving all of this like wise,
(49:26):
profound advice, but justsitting there and let them just
say whatever they want to say.
Jim Berry (49:32):
And I could not agree more.
You know, we know right, thatthere's a spiritual healing and
benefit that takes place inthose relationships and those
interactions and that time andthat space.
But also even I can tell youthat, through like neuroimaging
and other research that has beendone in the brain field, that
(49:53):
brain changes occur over time.
When just that is happening andrepairs occur and and
strengthens certain neuralnetworks that make it more
likely for people to get healthytoo.
So there's real power in this.
David Nakhla (50:09):
Do you have thoughts at all, dr Berry, as I
put on your elder hat, yeah, atwhat point do you think the
deacon should involve the elders, and what should that look like
?
Involve the elders, and whatshould that look like.
Jim Berry (50:20):
Yeah, I mean, I think , as soon as you possibly can.
But you don't want to do in away that the person isn't
necessarily ready for to wherethey're going, to just kind of
close down or run away.
They may come to that and theymay not be ready for it, and if
they start engaging in thingsthat are very dangerous to
themselves or to their childrenor to their wife, you may have
(50:44):
to get a hold of an elder andsay, all right, now we have to
come in and we have to be moreof the all right, we got to set
some ground rules and we got tokeep people safe.
There may be circumstances likethat, but if it hasn't risen to
that level of just moredangerousness or you know deep,
(51:07):
deep, deep sin stuff happening,then I would just say, just wait
and let it organically sort ofcome together and the more that
Steve develops trust with thedeacon, the more the deacon can
say you know what?
I just think we're at a pointright now where we should bring
in an elder.
(51:27):
And can we do that now and makeit a conversation and dialogue
as much as you possibly can andmake it a cooperative thing?
David Nakhla (51:36):
Good, Good, that's very helpful.
Well, thank you, jim and Rob,for joining me on this episode.
This has been so helpful.
I'm sure that deacons will findit very informative and
beneficial to them in theirservice.
So thank you, brothers.
Jim Berry (51:53):
Thanks for having us.
Yeah, thank you.
This is something that I feelvery privileged to be able to
talk to others about, and it wassuch a delight to hear Rob's
story Again, another reminder ofthe power of Christ and the
love of the church and what Godhas given us.
David Nakhla (52:08):
So, deacons, we hope this episode is helpful to
you and will be an encouragementto you in your labors for the
Lord, and I'd like to thankTrish Dugan, our producer, for
her excellent work in puttingthis episode together.
If you found this episodehelpful to you, please consider
forwarding a link to it tofellow deacons or others in your
congregation who you thinkwould benefit from this material
(52:29):
.
Thank you, thanks for joiningus.
Go to our website,thereformdeaconorg.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again for another episode of theReform Deacon Podcast.
The church can really come alongside these people and
encourage them of the hope thatthey really have, not only of
the hope that's to come, but thehope in the here and now, and
that there is true freedom andtrue forgiveness in Christ.
David Nakhla (00:15):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
My name is David Nakhla.
(00:36):
I serve as the administratorfor the OPC's Committee on
Diaconal Ministries.
Today we're going to focus onthe topic ministering to those
struggling with addiction.
This is a topic that's relevantto deacons because addiction
brings with it so muchbrokenness.
Not only can addictions consumemuch of a family's resources,
but addictions, when discovered,can result in someone being
(00:57):
fired from their job.
This can add pressure on ahousehold that's already in
distress.
It can result in brokenrelationships, bringing hurt and
pain and sadness and confusionto not only the one struggling
with addiction but also to thoseclose to him or her, especially
their family, and this mayoften result in many diacral
needs for deacons to workthrough.
(01:18):
So I'm thankful to be able towelcome two men onto the podcast
who come to us with verydifferent experiences on this
topic.
First, it's our privilege tohave Dr Jim Berry.
Dr Berry is an elder atReformation OPC in Morgantown,
west Virginia.
He's also a professor ofpsychiatry and the chair of the
Department of BehavioralMedicine and Psychiatry at West
(01:41):
Virginia University'sRockefeller Neuroscience
Institute.
I first met Dr Berry at the OPCGeneral Assembly a number of
years ago.
I very much appreciated thecounsel and advice he gave to me
when at that time I wasministering to a friend who was
struggling with an addiction toalcohol.
So I look forward to hearinghis thoughts on this topic.
(02:01):
And secondly, I'm thankful thatRob Guss is able to join the
conversation.
Rob is one of our newly mintedelders at my home church,
calvary OPC in Glenside,pennsylvania, where he and I
together serve as part ofCalvary's session.
Rob and his wife are expectingtheir fourth child in August.
They've been married nine years.
(02:21):
After a number of years, as asoftware engineer, rob sends the
call to ministry and enrolledat Westminster Theological
Seminary, where he also works intheir IT department.
While serving together on thesession, I soon found Rob's
insight to be super helpful,especially in recent occasions
when we've been ministering tovarious members struggling with
addiction and Rob was able toprovide insight because he knows
(02:45):
that struggle firsthand.
I won't steal his thunder,rather I'll let him tell his own
story in his own words.
So welcome brothers, thanks forhaving us.
Pleasure to be here.
Dr Berry, let's start with you,if you don't mind.
You wrote an article back in2018 that was published in the
Ordained Servant, one of theOPC's magazines.
In that article, you describedaddiction in America as quote a
(03:09):
crisis unlike anything we'veseen before, with overdose
deaths outpacing car accidentsand even the peak of the AIDS
epidemic and that article wasseven years ago.
I'm sure it's only gotten worsesince then.
You also point out that ournation's declining life
expectancy is largely driven bypreventable addiction-related
(03:30):
causes such as overdose, suicideand liver failure.
This epidemic is happening allaround us in the church.
So, dr Barrett, you serve as anelder in the church.
How could or should the churchbe engaging this staggering
brokenness in our culture?
Jim Berry (03:47):
Yeah, I firmly believe that we in the church
have a unique opportunity toenter the lives of those
neighbors that God has, in hisprovidence, placed us among that
.
We have that opportunity toenter their lives and be able to
(04:07):
demonstrate the love of Christand to call them to see
themselves as sinners in need ofsalvation and in need of all
that Christ has accomplished forthem.
And the older I get and themore that I am in the church and
(04:28):
the longer I'm in a Reformedfaith, I've come to really rest
in our doctrine of adoption andrecognizing that really our
foundational identity of who weare as children of God, hidden
in Christ.
It makes all the difference inthe world.
And I am really interested inhelping churches be equipped and
(04:52):
see that as part of theirmission is to really enter the
brokenness of the folks thatlive in their communities and
bring them to the riches thatChrist has to offer.
David Nakhla (05:02):
Thank you, Rob.
Would you be willing to shareyour story and how the Lord
brought you to faith?
If there were specific peoplethe Lord used and, if so, how he
used them, even in your battlewith addiction?
Rob Guss (05:17):
Sure.
So I grew up in South Floridain a, I would say, a nominal
Roman Catholic family.
My parents divorced when I waseight years old and my father
left when I was 10.
My sister was 12.
He moved up to Massachusetts tolive with another woman, so
that was the same age that Ibecame an atheist.
(05:39):
I struggled with hearing thewhole idea of our.
Basically the phrase or thesaying that you know your father
in heaven was really repulsiveto me because I equated the two
and I thought that if there wasa God up there and this is the
kind of life that he wasallowing to happen or causing to
happen, however, that worked.
I mean, I'm only 10 at thispoint.
I don't really know how toprocess a lot of this.
(06:01):
I figured I'd be better offwithout him.
Hindsight, the worst decision Iever made started doing drugs
when I was 13.
That only really escalated astime went on and then started
selling drugs to support myhabit, and then I got radically
saved when I was 20.
That's kind of a whole otherstory unto itself, but
essentially it wasn't lookingfor God, I just got blindsided.
(06:23):
One day.
He just made it overwhelminglyclear that he existed and that
he loved me and that he had aplan for my life.
And I also felt, for the firsttime, convicted of my own sin.
And my life turned around likealmost immediately.
The very next day, I stoppedusing drugs completely no rehab,
no desire to use drugs, nowithdrawal symptoms.
(06:46):
And that was 20 years ago.
So it's been a heck of a journeyever since.
So yeah, I don't understand itmyself.
So if you want me to explainhow that all works, I have no
idea, but only by the grace ofGod.
David Nakhla (06:57):
So can you share a little bit more about how you
came to Christ when you were 20?
Rob Guss (07:02):
Yeah, I would say I had somewhat of a psychotic
breakdown of some kind to whereI became indifferent for about
two to three weeks, and by thatI mean I felt no emotions
whatsoever pain, sorrow, joy.
It absolutely terrified me.
So I realized this is probablydue to the fact that I was doing
a lot of drugs and so the onlything I could think of was to
(07:25):
try and go to like a 12-stepprogram.
So I started going to meetingsand those were very eye-opening,
I guess, because you hear somereal horror stories and in light
of the things that I was doingand seeing where I thought I was
eventually going to end up wasreally terrifying.
The one moment that stuck outfor me was so everyone in AA
(07:48):
meetings if you don't know this,we all well, at least I did you
drink a lot of coffee and yousmoke a lot of cigarettes.
Like, you're always going oncoffee breaks and smoking a lot
of cigarettes.
And so during one of thosebreaks this guy came up to me
and I was 19 at the time and Iprobably looked like I was 13 or
14.
I looked pretty young and hegoes hey, kid, how old are you?
(08:10):
And I told him I was 19.
And he goes I've been puttingneedles in my arm longer than
you've been alive and that wasthe real like time kind of stood
still and I just really had toreevaluate my life.
And then, a little time afterthat, basically I started to
read their book, and one oftheir steps which is a real
problem for an atheist like meand, by the way, like I, was a
(08:33):
very hostile atheist too.
I hated the church, I hatedChrist, I hated his people Like
it made me angry.
And one of the steps is theytell you that you have to find a
higher power because you don'thave anything within you to like
overcome this thing.
And so they have this chapterfor agnostics.
And as I'm turning the page toread this chapter, which I like
(08:57):
was really not looking forwardto, I just felt this need to go
to church.
I don't really know how todescribe it, but it just kept
getting stronger and strongerand it wouldn't go away.
I hadn't been in church in avery, very long time.
I just basically got in my carand drove to the closest church.
That was not a Roman Catholicchurch.
I showed up.
It's like 1.30-ish on a Sundayafternoon and even I was
(09:20):
thinking this is insane.
Like even I know, people don'thave church at 1.30 on a Sunday
afternoon.
So this is like what are youdoing here?
But there were a handful ofcars and there was these two
really young girls standing outfront and they're handing out
these flyers.
I've been a musician for a longtime so I was really into music
at that time.
And the flyer basically saidthat they were having a piano
(09:43):
recital.
So I'm like this is great, Ican listen to this piano recital
.
I don't have to listen to somepreacher tell me about Jesus or
sin or anything.
And something happened in thatchurch that I can't really put
into words.
But I experienced somethingthere that I don't know how to
describe.
And the kids there were.
They are so little that theirlittle feet are like hanging off
(10:06):
the bench.
They can't even touch thepedals.
They're playing some of themost beautiful music I'd ever
heard.
So long story short.
As soon as that got done, Ibolted out of that place because
I got really freaked out.
And then I'm leaving the churchand I see out of the corner of
my eye like this flock of allthese white birds that I'd never
seen before.
(10:27):
And the words thank you Godjust came out of my mouth and I
just I just broke down and criedand I just lost it.
And the weird thing was is thatI knew exactly who it was too.
It wasn't just some likegeneric deity or any kind like.
I knew this was Jesus Christ,and I don't know how I knew that
, but that really freaked me out.
(10:48):
So that night, yeah, I gave mylife to him.
I don't, I didn't even knowwhat to tell him, I didn't even
know what to say, but I feltvery convicted of my sin.
I thought he was going to killme.
Honestly, I thought I was goingto die because of all the
terrible things I'd done.
And I just told him I'm a drugaddict, I'm selling drugs.
I don't know what you want withme, but I told him.
I told him I think you have thewrong guy Wow, which, in
(11:12):
hindsight, is borderlineblasphemous.
But yeah, I just told him ifyou want me, you can have me.
And so then the next day,totally different person Wow.
All the glory goes to God.
David Nakhla (11:23):
Thanks.
What an amazing story.
Thanks for sharing that, rob.
So before we dive into how tohelp those struggling with
addiction, can we begin byhelping deacons understand first
how to recognize some of thesigns that someone has an
addiction?
Are there physical things tolook for or behavioral?
(11:46):
I was just talking with anotherelder at General Assembly and
he was talking about a man whowandered into the back of church
and he interacted with the guyand the conversation was very
strange.
So I think that could happen inany of our churches, right,
somebody wanders in the backdoor or maybe somebody comes
asking for help.
So how do we recognize thatsomeone is high or under the
(12:08):
influence of something?
And once we suspect that, arethere do's and don'ts that you
would advise a deacon any stepsto take that type of thing?
Jim Berry (12:19):
Yeah, I think it's important to recognize that.
You know addiction exists on acontinuum.
Yes, right, so there will ormay certainly be people and
circumstances that are at yourfront door.
Somebody comes into thesanctuary who is obviously
impaired and obviouslyintoxicated and I think you know
most people would be able torecognize wow, there's something
(12:41):
wrong with this person.
Don't know what it is exactly,but it seems like there is
something amiss.
And they might have alcohol intheir breath, they might smell
of, you know, cannabis orsomething else, and then you're
like okay, I think I know what'shappening here.
You know, in that case it canbe a futile experience trying to
, you know, reason with somebodywho is intoxicated.
(13:03):
And so I think at that point,when you're encountering and
you're in that same space withsomebody, just making sure
they're safe and making surethat folks around them are safe
too, but that's not the time tostart getting into the deep
theological questions about whothey are, what they're doing and
all of that stuff.
But it's really just hey, whatcan I do to make sure this
person's safe and maybe andstart a relationship, stuff,
(13:24):
right, but it's really just hey,what can I do to make sure this
person's safe and maybe start arelationship?
But I would say that what ismore common in our churches is
what's hidden as far asaddiction is concerned.
Right, and too often ourchurches are like our social
media posts, where we like toput on there, you know, sort of
our facade and what we want toproject as our lives and that
we're all together or we havethings all together and we live
(13:47):
these perfect lives.
But in reality, right, there'sa lot of brokenness underneath
that, and usually church isgoing to be the last place that
it shows up that somebody isreally struggling with an
addiction problem.
And you know signs over timeespecially their spouses or
their children, or maybe eventheir parents, are going to
their homes and take them out tolunch and dinner as deacons and
(14:28):
have coffee or whatever it is,just to get to know them, and
then you'll start realizingwhat's underneath the surface.
David Nakhla (14:36):
Really good.
Anything you want to add tothat, Rob.
Rob Guss (14:38):
Yeah, I would just say similar to what Dr Berry was
talking about.
I think a lot of people havethis false impression that when
you hear the word addiction,they immediately think of like,
the absolute extreme, basicallywithout realizing that you know
there's this like idea of likeand I was one of them like a
(15:00):
functional drug addict.
I mean, I kept a full-time job.
None of the people I workedwith had any clue I was doing
drugs in the bathroom.
They had no idea.
I think the other issue that canmake it really hard to find or
to detect in people is, I thinkaddicts, serious addicts, are
(15:21):
professional liars really andthey're very, very good at
manipulating people.
Situations Like, for example, Ialways dressed appropriately.
I was still yes, ma'am, no,ma'am, thank you, please, and
thank you Like.
You would have had no idea thestuff that I was doing.
My parents had no idea, none ofmy siblings did Some of them
(15:42):
even my friends had no idea.
Idea, none of my siblings didSome of them, even my friends
had no idea.
So it can be really difficultto detect if you want to kind of
stay hidden, and I think that'ssomething important to keep in
mind too, is that we tend to beI shouldn't say we, because I'm
not an addict anymore, I've beenclean for 20 years but you can
(16:03):
manipulate people a lot and youget very, very good at putting
that mask on and making it seemlike everything's okay.
Coming across people who arelike high in the moment is
probably going to be less oftenthan the people who are just
using on a regular basis.
Another thing, too, I thinkyou're going to come across,
which is probably the mostdifficult hurdle, is you'll come
(16:27):
across people who probablydon't even recognize or realize
that they themselves are addicts.
You know, they just think that,oh, it's totally normal for me
to drink x amount every day,like this, just, it just becomes
a way of life, you know, and sothey might not even recognize
or realize that they have a realproblem.
You know, this is just likethis is just what I do, you know
, and so they might not evenrecognize or realize that they
have a real problem.
You know, this is just likethis is just what I do.
(16:49):
You know, it's like brushingyour teeth you get dressed every
morning, take a shower.
Whatever Using becomes likeevery day, it just becomes a
part of you.
So that could be another thingI think you come across quite a
bit.
David Nakhla (17:04):
Dr Bear, can you talk about what?
Is that tipping point whensomething is defined as an
addiction?
Jim Berry (17:10):
Yeah, I mean you can look at the clinical definition
of that and that's basicallythat.
Have you been using to such adegree that it's caused
clinically significant problemsthat you are no longer able to
control?
And I like what AlcoholicsAnonymous and Narcotics
(17:30):
Anonymous how they put it isthat your life has become
unmanageable.
So you've been captured by thissubstance, has created a life
for you that has really becomeunmanageable and taking you in
directions that you just don'twant to go, and you realize that
you've been become powerlessover it and you really can't
change Right.
And so that starts getting into the far end, the deep end of
(17:54):
the spectrum.
However, you can also look at itas more on the shallow end of
the spectrum, where somebody isdrinking, for instance, in a way
that is unhealthy, where they,you know, maybe are driving
intoxicated or maybe they'vedrank to such a degree that they
have trouble getting up forwork the next day, and this is
(18:15):
happening on occasion, that'smore, you know, more and more
frequent they're not showing upfor their kids soccer game
because they're going out to thebar.
I mean, these are things right?
Are you giving up activitiesthat are really important to you
and the people around you, andas those become more and more
prevalent and start piling on,then it becomes deeper and
(18:35):
deeper there in the pool of thecontinuum.
David Nakhla (18:38):
That's helpful, thank you.
So, dr Berry, can you talk tous about what the Bible says
about this topic and maybe evenhow that framework or that
understanding helps shape yourteaching on the subject in your
practice?
Jim Berry (18:51):
Yeah, I think you know foundationally, you know we
understand according toScripture, that we live very,
very messy lives and that welive in a very broken world.
Right, this is not the way wewere created to live right, In
full fellowship with, first andforemost, God and then in full
fellowship with our fellowhumans, but because of original
(19:15):
sin and our fallenness that weare now broken and we live in a
broken world and we are waitingour full redemption and glory.
So I mean, foundationally, ourhearts are deceptive, Our hearts
cling to things that areagainst God.
And you know, one of the thingsthat I've always appreciated
(19:37):
about, even early on, and whatattracted me in medical school
to working with folks who hadaddiction, was to me I saw boy
sin incarnate in my own sinincarnate and could recognize
wow, in these lives they've beencaptured in such a way of their
hearts, their desires, thatthey hate doing what they're
(19:58):
doing, but still they keep doingit because they just feel like
they have to do this in order tolive.
And to me that was just veryprofound early on and I could
see myself in that.
I could see areas where I fallshort of you know what I knew to
be right and what I knew to betrue, and so I wanted to learn
(20:18):
more about that and see howpeople got better as well.
You know, addiction is onemanifestation of our fallenness,
but for those of us who don'tmeet the diagnoses necessarily
or are that extreme, all of usgive ourselves over to things
that we know we shouldn't bedoing, and thank God.
Then we have Christ, who boreall of our brokenness, all of
(20:42):
our sinfulness, and has redeemedour body and our soul, and so
now our flesh in Him is beforethe Father.
When the Father sees the Son,he's seeing us, and that gives
all of us, and should give usall, hope, no matter what we've
been through, no matter whatwe've done, that Christ has
borne it all for us on the cross, and not only that, but then
(21:06):
equips us, through His Spiritand the gifts that we've been
given through the church, tolive lives that are comforting
lives and to live lives in glory, even knowing that as we groan
and as we wait for our fullredemption here, we can be
comforted, and we can comfortone another and always live in
that hope that there will be aday where all of our addictions
(21:27):
and all of our trials will beput to rest and we'll live in
full glory and joy and peace.
David Nakhla (21:32):
Rob, do you have any thoughts as to whether
there's a role that the churchcan play in an addict's
transformation?
Rob Guss (21:41):
Yeah, well, I would say, first and foremost, the
solution that they really needis the gospel, and that's the
only thing that will actuallybring them true freedom and
deliverance, because, at the endof the day, this is a sin issue
.
You know, one of the thingsthat I struggled with when I was
going to those meetings and Ithink there's a lot of good that
(22:02):
can be gleaned from an AA andall these other is you always
introduce yourself.
You say hi, I'm Bob, I'm anaddict, and even if you've been
clean for like 20, 30 years,they just tell you that you're
going to be.
This is a disease, you're goingto be addicted to this thing,
and I didn't like that.
I was like I don't want to beaddicted to AA meetings or NA
meetings for the rest of my life, like I don't want to choose,
(22:24):
swap one addiction for another.
I want to be done with thisnonsense, and I think only in
the gospel do you have that, andI think we need to encourage
our brothers and sisters who arestruggling is that the gospel
is not just a pardoning of yoursins, but there's power to it to
where you can truly be set freeand delivered from it, and
(22:46):
addiction is one of those thingsthat it can get really dark
really quick and you can kind ofadopt this mindset of I'm just
going to be this way for therest of my life, I'm just going
to have to deal with this thingforever, until I'm dead,
basically.
But the church can really comealongside these people and
encourage them of the hope thatthey really have, not only of
(23:09):
the hope that's to come, but thehope in the here and now, and
that there is true freedom andtrue forgiveness in Christ.
We should also be encouragingthem that you can adopt this
real sense of self-hatred whenyou struggle with this disease,
sense of self-hatred when youstruggle with this disease.
It reminded me when he wastalking.
(23:30):
We just heard a sermon on this,romans 7, where Paul says I
don't do the things I know I'msupposed to do.
I do the things I know I'm not,and he says who can deliver me
from this body of death?
Like that is literally thetagline of every drug addict
I've ever met, when you come torealize that I hate this thing
so much but you just feel likethere's no escape.
(23:53):
It's like ideal texts that takethem to.
Here's an apostle, here's a manwho's given revelation from
Jesus himself, who's strugglingwith things, and so, granted, he
probably wasn't struggling withdrug addiction, but at the end
of the day, you can sympathizewith him that if someone like
the Apostle Paul is saying words, by the way, that are inspired
(24:16):
by the Holy Spirit and writtendown in Scripture, how much more
can we be encouraged by thosethings as well?
I would say the church has theonly true source of
encouragement for people who arestruggling with this, because,
at the end of the day, it's aheart issue, it's a sin issue,
and only the gospel has thesolution for sin issues.
Jim Berry (24:38):
Yeah, I would say a couple of things in response to
that too.
One is yeah, I don't know.
I mean, maybe Paul did sufferfrom addiction.
What I think is so cool aboutthe text is, right, it says, you
know, we don't know what thethorn in his flesh was.
Right, we have some suspicions.
But what I think is sowonderful and beautiful about it
is that, you know, we could seeour own thorns in our flesh and
(25:00):
maybe maybe Paul suffered fromthat.
I don't know, but we know hesuffered from something.
It was a fleshy thing,obviously, from that I don't
know, but we know he sufferedfrom something.
It was a fleshy thing,obviously.
One of the other nuances I wouldsay about, you know, I love
Rob's experience and what he wasable to just enjoy, the healing
that he had.
But also, you know, I thinkit's so important what he talked
(25:25):
about as far as the guilt andthe shame that people experience
when they are going throughthis.
And you know, I thinkculturally we put a particular
emphasis on addiction as moreshameful, you know, than some
other things where I'm not surethe Bible would right.
We tend to minimize our ownsins, right, and then completely
stigmatize others and it justseems like addiction is one of
those things where our cultureand even our churches would put
(25:46):
that in a different category ofsin.
And I would also say that therewill be people, and a lot of
people that I work with to thisday who are faithful Christians,
who continue to wake up everyday and still think about using
and struggle with the fact thatsomething is in their brain and
(26:07):
their bodies, maybe their heart,that still wants to use.
And so I don't want anybody toget the impression coming away
right from our conversation thatif that wasn't removed from
them, that somehow they're lessChristian or they should be
feeling guilty about that andall of that stuff right, or they
should be feeling guilty aboutthat and all of that stuff,
(26:28):
right.
But to recognize that there area whole bunch of people who
still just struggle every day,and some every moment, with the
cravings and the feelings andall of this stuff.
But they are still very much assaved as I am and they're still
very much a child of God asanyone else who calls upon the
name of Christ, and they have totrust that God is still working
(26:51):
in them and that God stillloves them and there will be a
day when that will all go away.
But it might not be the side ofglory or a church member.
David Nakhla (27:11):
Interacting with someone struggling with
addiction might be uncomfortableor even find it intimidating to
face.
Some may think I don't want mykids exposed to this or worry
that it's risky to be involvedin ministry to somebody who is
struggling.
You know worry that it's riskyto be involved in ministry to
somebody who is struggling.
Do you have any words ofcaution or are there
(27:36):
misconceptions that deaconsmight have on the topic and then
maybe any advice to overcomesuch fears and enable us to
engage practically and wisely inhelping?
Jim Berry (27:44):
I think first and foremost is encourage deacons to
follow the pattern of Christ.
And Christ went to the broken,went to the outcasts of society
and opened himself up to themand entered their suffering and
was vulnerable before them.
(28:04):
And so I think, as I readscripture and see who Christ was
and is that's what he's callingus to do, it's certainly safe
to stay away from anything wedon't understand, and certainly
our natural tendencies is toavoid suffering and, for those
who are ashamed, to avoid themas well.
(28:25):
And I would encourage ourdeacons and members and children
to say, hey, you know we needto follow Christ and try to
minister to people.
That's why you know we're here.
But also, you know, be wise inhow you do that.
And just because somebody has anaddiction doesn't necessarily
mean that they are going to actimmorally or, you know, somehow
(28:51):
put you or your children indanger.
Right, you got to be wise.
And so if you know thatsomebody has, is really
struggling with addiction, whoisn't in recovery, that you know
thinking about even drivingwith them or letting your kids
drive with them, that's onepractical thing that should come
to mind, right.
And if somebody is getting high, you don't want, you don't want
(29:13):
to put anybody else at risk forthat.
For instance, you know, likelike Rob said, dishonesty can be
really part of the problemsthat people start utilizing to
be able to live their lives, theproblems that people start
utilizing to be able to livetheir lives, and so you know
being wary about loaning moneyand other things that can put
the people at risk.
That's great.
Rob Guss (29:34):
Yeah, I guess one thing I would say for deacons
people struggling with addictionyou probably have to be more
proactive than you're probablyused to, in the sense that
addicts don't typically, like Imentioned earlier, there can be
a lot of self-hatred and shameand all of these things, so
you're not exactly going to bevery forthcoming with this and
(29:56):
seeking forgiveness.
Well, they say, you know, thefirst step is admitting you have
a problem.
That's a really, really hardstep to overcome.
It's the reason why it's thefirst one.
Just getting there is tricky.
So I think, similar to what DrBerry said earlier, just being
in the lives of your people andespecially talking to the people
(30:18):
around the person who you maysuspect, they'll probably have a
better idea.
But it's also one of thosethings where these are really
lost sheep and they're going tostray a lot and it's going to
require, I would say, a morehands-on, a proactive approach,
whereas maybe other sins thatpeople are struggling with
they'll be more forthcoming andgetting help and assistance with
(30:40):
.
I would be reluctant to seeaddicts who are really going to
be, unless they've hidden rockbottom and that's that would be
great and then they've woken upsaying I just need help.
But the whole process leadingup to that point.
So just being aware of yourpeople and the only way to know
that is just to be in theirlives, you know.
And then the lives of thepeople who are in their lives.
Jim Berry (31:03):
Yeah, rob, I couldn't agree more really put his
finger on it on.
An important part of this isthat the folks who are
struggling with addiction, shameis compounding upon shame and
they're unlike, maybe, otherpeople in the church who are
going to reach out to thedeacons for help because they
need assistance for some reason.
Right, these people are goingto be running away and they are
(31:26):
not going to want this to cometo light at all unless they've
really really gotten to thatpoint where they, like Rob said,
they've hit rock bottom orwhatever it is, where they
recognize, all right, I've gotto do this, but otherwise it's
all right If you start smellingthat this person has a problem
trying to just spend more timewith them and be gentle with
(31:48):
them and have that relationshipand develop that trust and be
the type of deacon who isprojecting, who is living a life
that seems to be open andwilling to let somebody confess
to and know that.
Okay, I'm not going toautomatically judge you,
disqualify you, whatever it isright, I'm not going to shame
(32:09):
you further, but I'm going to bethere and listen to you and I'm
going to be there as a sinnertalking to a sinner.
That, I think, is so, soimportant is not putting
yourself or again giving theimpression that somehow you're
above this person.
But yeah, wow, you're dealingwith this and, like Rob said,
it's so hard.
The three hardest words to sayis I need help.
(32:30):
And once they say that is boy,there's the window of
opportunity to do what you canand say you know, boy, it must
have been really hard for you tofinally come to admit that.
I know how hard that can be andI'm going to be there for you.
I'm going to love youunconditionally and let's try to
help you with this.
David Nakhla (32:46):
So can you to follow up on that?
Then what does that?
When they say I need help, whatdoes that help look like?
Jim Berry (32:53):
First and foremost I would say is being with that
person and saying I'm going tobe with you.
Thank God, you came to me.
God did not create us to besolitary creatures, but he
created us to be in relationshipwith one another.
That is the beauty of thechurch, and I'm going to be with
you, I'm going to do what I canto help you and I'm going to be
with you until the end.
(33:13):
First and foremost, that's whatpeople need to hear and say
listen, there's nothing you cantell me.
That's going to make me thinkless of you as a human being,
and you know I struggle withthings, you struggle with things
.
Let's try to go forward, then,in having a conversation as far
(33:33):
as what is it that you actuallyneed and who can we bring
alongside us to get you evenmore help?
And trying to find out.
You know, ask as many questionsand be as curious as you can
and to learn their story so youknow how to best help them.
Yeah, I think one of the thingsand maybe Rob will disagree or
agree, but sometimes, you know,coming in with all the answers
(33:56):
can not be a good way toapproach this, because it's like
, unless you're like Rob, who'veactually lived the life of
somebody with addiction.
You just don't.
You really don't know what itis.
And if you come at it like youthink you do, because you've
read some books or heard somethings or you just have your own
opinions, I mean people arejust going to lose trust in you
(34:17):
immediately or quickly and andthen it can create more of a
barrier for them to open up more.
So I guess humility, curiosityand humility, I think, are key
aspects of what to develop as weapproach those who are
suffering.
David Nakhla (34:33):
Where does that hit the point of enabling?
Jim Berry (34:36):
So you know it depends what you mean by
enabling.
You know, if you continue togive somebody money, for
instance, so they can go out andbuy a bag of heroin, you know
that would be enabling.
We all need to be very carefulabout that because that is not
going to help somebody but couldactually put them at risk and
actually kill them.
(34:56):
So you have to be careful aboutthat.
But I would never, ever, ever,say that being with somebody,
opening up your life, beingavailable to them, is ever
enabling, and that is, again, Ithink that's what we're called
to do.
And even when they continue andthey will, because that's part
(35:16):
of the process of addiction evenwhen they continue to fail,
when they continue to mess up,it's all right.
What can we learn from thesemistakes?
And what do you do to get to goforward?
Right, so you can still beavailable for somebody and be
there, but not enable them tocontinue the behavior that they
(35:37):
have.
It's going to be harmful forthem.
But at the same time, guys,right, it doesn't mean that you
don't put in particularguardrails and limits, because
we all have our own limits too.
It doesn't mean that you cancall me at three in the morning,
every night, when you're drunkand you are not allowed to do
that, right, that's, that's offlimits.
(35:58):
If you need to talk to me,right, and it's an emergency,
then you know, then we can talkabout that.
But otherwise, you know you canset a.
You know time is okay.
This is when we can talk, andthese sort of things too.
So I don't want to give theimpression that you just have to
be completely 24 hours a day,seven days a week, available to
somebody and that folks can takeadvantage of that too.
Rob Guss (36:21):
Yeah, I think one thing I would add is when
someone is forthcoming or theyget to the point where they
admit that they need help,probably a good thing for you to
just keep in mind that you'rein this thing for the long haul.
Generally, I mean, I personallybenefit from deacons for other
(36:41):
reasons, but, for example, thisis not like someone lost their
job and they just need helppaying the rent for a couple
months.
This is a process and theprocess looks different for
everyone.
Testimony a whole lot, becauseI don't want to give the
(37:05):
impression that like I'm in theanomaly here and I don't even
like telling addicts about mystory because then they can
easily think, well, why not me,why did it happen?
So it's typically a very, verylong road and, similar to what
Dr Barry was saying, I think weshould never underestimate Mark
Bube talks about this a lot theidea of ministry, of presence,
(37:26):
of just physically being intheir life, walking with them,
and you need to recognize thatthrough this process they are
going to fall a lot, like it'snot just like, hey, I need help,
help, and then boom, they'renever going to use again, like
they're gonna keep going back tothat, you know, rolling around
(37:47):
in the mire or whatever likeit's, they're gonna relapse.
It just takes a tremendousamount of patience, a tremendous
amount of patience, and there'sreally no shortcut, you know,
unless the lord just radicallyintervenes.
It's just one of those thingswhere they could, like Dr Barry
was saying, they very well couldbe struggling with it for the
(38:09):
rest of their lives and thinkingabout it and all these other
things.
As fits, all solution or everyaddict is like its own unique
case, you know.
So I would also stress theimportance of prayer for
(38:30):
something like this.
This is not something that anyone of us is capable of handling
, that we need the Lord and theHoly Spirit to give us the
wisdom and the grace and thepatience to do it.
Jim Berry (38:42):
Yeah, it makes me think when you were talking
there, rob, is a story I heardabout Johnny Cash I think it was
you too, and Bono said thisstory.
So you may know that Johnny Cashhad a lot of demons in his life
, and certainly drug addictionand alcohol addiction were some
of them, and he got saved andultimately he was able to be in
(39:02):
recovery and have a long timesober.
And I think it was Bono and theguys from UT who went to visit
him at his home in his lateryears and he prayed before their
meal and talked about, you know, the delivery of Christ and the
joy he has in the salvation,something of that nature.
And then after the prayer, Ithink Bono said something like
(39:26):
well, that was a reallybeautiful prayer.
And Johnny Cash said yeah, Isay that, but I want you to know
, it's really important to know,that I still think about using
every day, and to me that wasjust like very, very apropos and
is typical for a lot of thepeople who are still out there,
who have been saved but stillstruggle with this.
David Nakhla (39:49):
So our podcast Real World Cases episodes are
some of our most popular and wethought maybe we could discuss a
scenario having to do withaddiction and have each of you
give your thoughts as to how todeal with it.
So here it is.
Steve, a 42-year-old man who'sbeen a member of your OPC church
(40:10):
for about 11 years approachesyou a deacon after the Sunday
evening service.
He's a quiet, clean-cut,reserved guy who usually sits
near the back with his wife andtwo teenage daughters.
Clean-cut, reserved guy whousually sits near the back with
his wife and two teenagedaughters.
He works in IT, he servesoccasionally as an usher and he
(40:30):
has attended a midweek men'sgroup off and on for years.
You've known Steve on a surfacelevel for over a decade Polite
conversations, a few prayerrequests.
He's friendly but neverparticularly sociable.
After hesitating and glancingaround to make sure no one else
is listening, steve admits toyou that he's been struggling
with alcohol.
What started as casual drinksafter work turned into nightly
(40:52):
binges.
He believes he's hidden it fromhis family for years, but
recently his wife confronted him.
He seems scared and ashamed andadmits he doesn't know what to
do next.
He says he believes God canchange him, but he's prayed and
not had relief.
At one point he seems tobacktrack a bit from remorse to
justification, asking if youthink he's making too much of it
(41:16):
.
You're the first person he'sever told.
How should this deacon respond?
Jim Berry (41:22):
Yeah, I would go back to something I was saying
earlier.
The first response would be tosay hey, Steve, listen, I know
how hard it must have been foryou to even talk to me about
this, so I just want you to knowhow grateful I am that you
trusted me enough to share whatyou're dealing with right now.
(41:43):
And this must be very, verydifficult for you.
So that's how I would approachit and start it and then say
that I believe that help isavailable and that I am
convinced people get better allthe time.
Let's start meeting togetherand help me understand more of
your story and what's beenhappening, and can we, you know,
(42:08):
commit to getting together on aregular basis and talking more
about this?
Then I also might say is thereanyone else that you trust that
I could you know talk to andmaybe bring in to our team here
as we try to work together?
If not, that's okay, it can beyou and me right now, and maybe
(42:29):
would it be possible to talk toyour wife also, who's already
brought up some concerns withyou.
I think that's how I wouldapproach it initially.
That's great.
Rob Guss (42:39):
Yeah, I don't really know if I could say anything
better than that.
That's pretty spot on, just tokind of echo the fact of first
encouraging them, of just howmuch courage it takes for them
to get to that point, becausethey've probably been thinking
about that and ruminating overthat for a very significant
(42:59):
amount of time.
I think you also need torecognize the weight of the
responsibility now that's onyour shoulders, because they've
been willing to open up to youabout this and so you're dealing
with a very, very fragileperson, I would say, and the
fact that they've openedthemselves up to you
(43:22):
specifically is that's a veryweighty matter.
And so you need to be real wiseand real careful with what you
say, what you don't say and howyou kind of move forward.
And then, similar to what DrBarry said, you need to be more
involved in their lives,frequent kind of meetings,
trying to understand what'sgoing on.
And then I would also say atsome point, the sooner the
(43:44):
better if you can get otherpeople involved.
This is not like a lone wolfsituation where it's like, oh,
he came to me, so I can bearthis, and it's like we can get
the pastors involved.
Definitely want to get the wifeinvolved, you want to be having
conversations with her, andthen just remember you're in
this thing for the long haul.
It's going to probably take awhile and then, as things
(44:05):
progress, you can haveconversations about treatment
programs or what that looks like, but again, I think it's just a
presence thing.
Just now, whether you want it ornot, the Lord has put this
person in your life and you'vebeen tagged, you're it.
And so now you, especially as adeacon, put this person in your
life and you've been tagged,you're it.
(44:25):
And so now you, especially as adeacon, as a you know, a
minister in God's house, youhave this immense responsibility
and weight upon your shouldersto walk alongside this brother,
and it's a privilege.
Honestly, you shouldn't feellike a burden, like, oh man, why
did he pick me, why?
No, that's a gift.
You know, there's somethingthat that man saw in you and the
(44:48):
Lord's been preparing you, andthe Lord ordained this thing to
happen.
That's what you need to remembertoo.
It's not like the addict justwent eeny, meeny, miny moe, and
even if he did, it's stillprovidential at the end of the
day.
So it is a gift and it's notgoing to be easy, I would say,
but you will get, lord willing,a front row seat of the gospel
and the grace of God at work insomeone's life.
You will just see it manifesttime and time and time again,
(45:12):
and it should be a source ofencouragement to you because,
hopefully you'll remember, thisis why I serve in the church.
This is why I serve as a deaconis because I get to be the
hands and feet of Christ and I'mliterally seeing my Lord use my
broken hands and my feet ofclay to minister to this person
and I'm watching sanctificationhappen right before my eyes,
(45:34):
like it's pretty wild.
It's pretty amazing and you getto see that it's incredible.
Jim Berry (45:42):
Yeah, one of the things that attracted me, even
as a medical student, to workingwith this population is I saw
people get better in ways Ididn't see in other areas of
medicine, and a lot of timesthere's sort of this myth or
stigma out there that you know,addiction is just people are
always going to be at the bottomof the barrel, but that's just
not.
The reality is that I got tosee that early on in my medical
(46:05):
career is that actually nopeople got better all the time
and not only got their livesbetter and got healthier, but
transformed, and dramatically,and they became better husbands,
better wives, better employees,employers, citizens and all of
that stuff.
One other thing that comes tomind in that first experience is
, too, it's okay to say I don'tknow right and that I don't have
(46:28):
all the answers.
Boy, this is a lot, steve,you're dealing with a lot.
I wish I knew all of theanswers.
I wish I knew you know what todo to help, but I'm not going to
tell you that I do because Idon't.
This is uncharted territory forme and I think people will
really respond to that a lotbetter than trying to pretend
that you know what you're doingor have all the answers and just
(46:51):
say let's try to find theseanswers together.
Another thing that comes tomind is if you can already have
like Rob is a great example ifyou can already have some people
picked out in your church withlived experience from addiction
to be able to bring on as partof the team and connect with too
, is they're going to be able tomeet with them in a way that
(47:12):
you just don't, because of whatthey're, what you, what they've
gone to, so they're going to beable to relate to things and
think about how those thoughtpatterns they used to be in and
what's going to be harmful.
And then a third thing thatprobably comes to mind is making
sure that you've familiarizedyourself with whatever
professional services you havein your community and so that
you can have that at the readywhen you need that and when the
(47:34):
time comes to.
Rob Guss (47:35):
You made me think of something else, dr Barry is I
would say especially initially,as those early conversations are
being had is I think it wouldbe very wise and do a lot of
good for you to do morelistening than talking.
Yes, yes, you also need to becareful with like hammering them
(47:58):
down with the law.
Don't get me wrong.
It's a sin issue that needs tobe addressed.
But I can almost guaranteethey're well aware of the depth
of depravity and sin thatthey're in and they don't need
to be reminded and come off insome self-righteous way,
especially if it's happening ina church.
They're coming to a deacon,they know.
(48:20):
So that time needs to come.
But initially, I think youreally need to exercise
tremendous humility and just letthem do as much of the talking
and you just be a person presentand listen to them, not only
because you have no idea whatthey're going through and you
definitely don't have all theright answers, but they just
(48:41):
need someone to listen to them.
Because the one thing aboutaddiction from my own experience
, I mean all sin is selfish, butaddiction is very you go real
deep inside.
So you're not talking about alot of stuff, you're suppressing
, you're constantly hiding stuffpushing it down, and that stuff
needs to come out over time,because that's the stuff that
(49:05):
causes you to do the drugs inthe first place.
So, yeah, doing a lot morelistening, I would say, even if
you feel like you're notactually doing anything and
you're just literally sittingthere and just listening, you're
doing a lot more than you couldprobably ever imagine.
You know, you don't have to begiving all of this like wise,
(49:26):
profound advice, but justsitting there and let them just
say whatever they want to say.
Jim Berry (49:32):
And I could not agree more.
You know, we know right, thatthere's a spiritual healing and
benefit that takes place inthose relationships and those
interactions and that time andthat space.
But also even I can tell youthat, through like neuroimaging
and other research that has beendone in the brain field, that
(49:53):
brain changes occur over time.
When just that is happening andrepairs occur and and
strengthens certain neuralnetworks that make it more
likely for people to get healthytoo.
So there's real power in this.
David Nakhla (50:09):
Do you have thoughts at all, dr Berry, as I
put on your elder hat, yeah, atwhat point do you think the
deacon should involve the elders, and what should that look like
?
Involve the elders, and whatshould that look like.
Jim Berry (50:20):
Yeah, I mean, I think , as soon as you possibly can.
But you don't want to do in away that the person isn't
necessarily ready for to wherethey're going, to just kind of
close down or run away.
They may come to that and theymay not be ready for it, and if
they start engaging in thingsthat are very dangerous to
themselves or to their childrenor to their wife, you may have
(50:44):
to get a hold of an elder andsay, all right, now we have to
come in and we have to be moreof the all right, we got to set
some ground rules and we got tokeep people safe.
There may be circumstances likethat, but if it hasn't risen to
that level of just moredangerousness or you know deep,
(51:07):
deep, deep sin stuff happening,then I would just say, just wait
and let it organically sort ofcome together and the more that
Steve develops trust with thedeacon, the more the deacon can
say you know what?
I just think we're at a pointright now where we should bring
in an elder.
(51:27):
And can we do that now and makeit a conversation and dialogue
as much as you possibly can andmake it a cooperative thing?
David Nakhla (51:36):
Good, Good, that's very helpful.
Well, thank you, jim and Rob,for joining me on this episode.
This has been so helpful.
I'm sure that deacons will findit very informative and
beneficial to them in theirservice.
So thank you, brothers.
Jim Berry (51:53):
Thanks for having us.
Yeah, thank you.
This is something that I feelvery privileged to be able to
talk to others about, and it wassuch a delight to hear Rob's
story Again, another reminder ofthe power of Christ and the
love of the church and what Godhas given us.
David Nakhla (52:08):
So, deacons, we hope this episode is helpful to
you and will be an encouragementto you in your labors for the
Lord, and I'd like to thankTrish Dugan, our producer, for
her excellent work in puttingthis episode together.
If you found this episodehelpful to you, please consider
forwarding a link to it tofellow deacons or others in your
congregation who you thinkwould benefit from this material
(52:29):
.
Thank you, thanks for joiningus.
Go to our website,thereformdeaconorg.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again for another episode of theReform Deacon Podcast.
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