September 26, 2024 • 22 mins
In this episode, the four deacons from Part 1 (John Stahl, Immanuel OPC, Wilmington, DE; Bob Keys, Grace OPC, Columbus, OH; Jared Grigg, Acacia OPC, Manassas, VA; Lynne Hunter, Harvest OPC, Wyoming, MI) continue discussing two more scenarios: a year-long intern is having car trouble and empty nesters who are struggling to pay their bills. This episode is particularly helpful with suggestions for approaching the family members of those who are needing help.
The men don't always suggest the same solutions, but their perspectives help to spur on good discussion and good answers; iron sharpens iron!
You can find all of our episodes at thereformeddeacon.org. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for giveaways and more information. Find other resources on OPCCDM.org. Make sure to send us some feedback on your podcast player or ask a diaconal question by going to OPCCDM.org.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bob Keys (00:00):
Think about how you can get the parents and the
family members interested inwhat you're doing and how you're
caring for them.
Ultimately, it's about thegospel and about encouraging
them to come, ultimately, tochurch, and that may take a long
time.
David Nakhla (00:14):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
John Stahl (00:33):
My name is John Stahl and I am a deacon at
Emanuel OPC in Wilmington,delaware.
I also serve on the OPCCommittee on Diaconal Ministries
.
Thanks for coming back tolisten to part two of the
episode Real World CasesLong-Term Dilemmas with deacons
Bob Keyes, jared Grigg and LynnHunter.
(00:55):
If you didn't catch part oneyet, be sure to go back at some
point to listen to that podcastas well.
For now let's get to the lasttwo scenarios these men discuss.
Let's continue with the nextcase.
Your church calls a one-yearintern.
Three weeks after he and hisfamily arrive you hear from the
pastor the intern's car haspermanently died and he's going
(01:18):
to pick him up for their weeklylunch.
The pastor says nothing abouthelp.
You are a big enough church tocall an intern, but you have a
lower than normal diaconal fund.
Other people have had cartrouble and while you and the
church have offered rides,you've been hesitant to put
money into helping peoplepurchase cars because you
haven't wanted to lay out biggersums, thus depleting the fund.
(01:42):
But you feel like this is morein the taking care of our
pastors category.
You know enough to know that aseminary guy with a family who
isn't independently wealthy isgoing to be taxed by this
situation.
What do you do?
Lynne Hunter (01:57):
First of all, I'll just say it Is this a diaconal
matter?
This is an intern.
He's an employee of the church.
If you give money from thediaconal fund, it is taxable
because he is an employee of thechurch.
So you have to get your taxaccountant out and make sure
(02:21):
that you really want to go thisdirection out and make sure that
you really want to go thisdirection.
Second, I would say and Harvesthas this there should be a
committee on seminary studentfunds.
We have actually two.
We have two committees.
One is seminary student fundand that's local.
(02:41):
And then we have internationalseminary students, where we have
funds those may or may not betaxable if we give them to an
intern.
So that's where I would start.
It's got to go back to yoursession.
(03:01):
Or, if you are like Harvest,you have a set of trustees.
They need to review this.
Now I'm not saying that thechurch can't help, but I'm
saying that you have to thinkabout all the aspects of it
before you start helping, andyour trustees or session unless
the session has delegated thiswork to the deacons need to
(03:26):
think about this when they hireinterns on is can we take care
of our pastors?
So I'll right away.
Tell you I am not in favor ofdiaconal funds going to interns.
Bob Keys (03:43):
We've run into too many problems with it.
I didn't know all that, but Iwould be in favor of looking for
someone that has a used car inthe church You're right, bob or
a car that they are going todonate at a value of zero and
then make sure it getstransferred properly.
This is my main way I would doit.
(04:04):
It's not a small, smallcongregation.
They have an intern.
There's got to be someone therethat's got an older car, that
can see the need, hear the needand respond to the need with a
title and I would pray that thatwould happen and give this
family a car, maybe even twocars.
If you can find two people,give them two cars, but again, a
(04:28):
young family like this.
I tell you, if they can see thechurch give to a need of an
intern, this intern family willbe forever blessed.
And I just think you've got tofind a way to do it.
Lynn, I appreciate your insights, but find a way.
Find a way to show them thelove of Christ.
(04:48):
They have spent two or threeyears in preparing for this.
They've given their life to thegospel and you've got to find a
way to help this family.
I don't care what you do do it.
Talk to your tax accountants.
Whatever you've got to do,you've got to find a way to not
hurt them but help them.
These are your interns, yourpastors and a long-term pastor
(05:11):
in the congregation, in thepresbytery, in the denomination,
and so anything we can do tohelp them, encourage them and
bless them, find a way.
Jared Grigg (05:20):
Whatever it is, find the way just my input is I
see both sides of this and I,you know I wouldn't be for
particularly like if I didn'thave the funds.
Diagonally, it's a one yearcommitment from this guy, so I
don't know Like I kind of seeLynn's point there If this is a
one year thing, like I don'twant to.
I don't want the guy to have topay taxes on money that I would
(05:42):
give him.
Of course we wouldn't, Iwouldn't give him money.
I did this one time for a guyin our church.
He's been there for years,sterling.
He had a car situation.
He came up here from anotherstate and I didn't know how long
he was going to be here.
He's actually an intern now,but he had a situation with a
vehicle where it just crappedout.
(06:04):
I have a business where I gothrough cars like crazy because
I do maintenance work and so Igot technicians that they burn
through cars, so I know how tofind cars and do that, and so I
kind of was like, okay, well, Ican probably do this because
it's not super hard for me tofigure it out, but I just went
through car dealerships and carlights and I ended up getting
the guy and we just bought itwith you know diaconal funds.
(06:26):
It was like a 19 or 2001 or twotoyota corolla with with you
know 100 000 miles on.
It was awesome, right.
And the guy was like he wanted3 000 for it and I negotiated
with I said I'll give you cashright now.
I got him to come down to youknow 2200 or whatever, something
like that, and it was like boom, this is easy.
So the first step I I thinkBob's right Like how do we get
(06:49):
the guy a car and how do wecultivate inside of the church
if it's a large enough church todo this where people in the
congregation can bless thatperson?
And we've had that happen a lot.
Like my first car after I wasmarried came from a guy that
sold it to me in the church forsuper cheap and then I think
(07:12):
that car's still in the airsomewhere.
So if we can, if we can providea vehicle in-house, let's do
that.
If we can't do that, let'sfigure out how like we can get
our minds together with somebodythat knows cars or is pretty
good and everybody's got a carguy or two in their church where
they can kind of help themnavigate.
A low cost, right, becausevehicle, because a vehicle is a
means to an end, like we don'tneed Land Rovers or whatever.
I mean they're cool if you canpay for them cash, but like it's
(07:32):
a devalued, it's not aninvestment.
Get a car that gets you safelyfrom A to B.
That's all you need, right, soyou can do your job.
Particularly because we calledthis guy yeah, he's had a car
problem or the thing died.
Maybe he should have knownabout that.
I don't know, maybe that'sanother discussion that I have,
probably with him, but I do wantto find a way to make sure that
he's able to get to and fromsession meetings and taking his
(07:56):
family where they need to go.
I think it's a necessity thathe has a car and I think it is
on the church on some level toprovide that.
I would never give the guymoney to go buy a car, like I'm
not, like that's out, like I'mnot giving the guy cash or
whatever.
But I do think it is ourresponsibility as a church, if
we call him, is to make surethat he's got a reliable
transportation to the best thatwe can.
Bob Keys (08:18):
The taxes to a young man like this, for an intern's
salary ain't going to be veryhigh.
That's another point that Idon't think even the taxes, if
it has to be that way, would bethat much.
But also, pastors oftentimesget car allowances and things
like that, and so I'm not surehow to do it.
I'm not a tax accountant, but Ithink there are ways to work
(08:40):
this so that there's minimal tax, if any, and ways that you can
do it legitimately and properlyto aid this family.
The other thing that we haven'ttalked about is their families.
Are their families able to helpwith a used car?
Maybe they are and allow thefamily to help them in this
regard, and if they're not, thenfind a way to do it.
Lynne Hunter (09:03):
Hey Bob.
John Stahl (09:04):
What.
Lynne Hunter (09:05):
It's been mentioned a a number of times,
and so I'll just bring up thequestion how do you get families
?
We had the scenario number two.
Now we we've talked about it inscenario number three.
Really, you probably shouldhave said something in scenario
number one how do we getfamilies involved?
John Stahl (09:24):
especially ones that aren't in membership.
Lynne Hunter (09:27):
Might be another whole podcast that we need to
talk about.
Bob Keys (09:31):
I think you talk to the individuals involved in each
of these case studies and seetheir relationship with their
families, talk to them, but youneed a relationship with them
first before you go with thatquestion.
But I think at some pointappropriate point you really
need to know who they are ifthey're not involved in the
church and find out what theyare able to do and how they're
(09:53):
able to help and encourage thesepeople to talk with their
families, communicate and seewhat they really can do and how
they can help and then make itclear what ways they can help to
these cases, to the peopleinvolved.
I think that's where I'd getstarted, and the goal is to even
to get them to come to church.
Think about how you can get theparents and the family members
(10:17):
interested in what you're doingand how you're caring for them.
Ultimately, it's about thegospel and about encouraging
them to come, ultimately, tochurch, and that may take a long
time.
That's not something you wantto do quickly, lynn, but I think
these are the kind of questions, the kind of things that I
would encourage, and I've donesome of that as well
Communication, talk, see whattheir family's like and see what
(10:41):
their hearts are like and seeif they're receptive to coming
to church or helping or whateverthey're able to do, and some
aren't, and that makes it hard.
John Stahl (10:52):
Whether they're members in the church or outside
of the church.
I know for us even morerecently, when we have call-ins,
people calling in for help whoaren't members in the church,
and we always encourage them toask their family members, and
particularly ones that are inthe area that have some kind of
(11:12):
relationship with them.
And often it's just plantingthat seed, that thought in their
minds.
They were either afraid to doit or didn't give a thought, but
just encouraging them to takean initiative to talk to their
family members has often beenthe trick for it.
(11:33):
They took that initiative andmom and dad were very willing to
help, maybe not all the way.
They did what they could.
All right, I think we're readyto move on to our final case.
Karen and Tom are empty nestersand members at your church.
They live off their home'sequity.
(11:54):
Tom struggles with long-termunemployment after multiple
layoffs and succession.
Karen is trying to start asmall business but isn't yet
drawing a salary.
The couple asks the deacons ifthey would help with their food,
internet and electric bills,just until Karen's business
begins to turn a profit.
(12:15):
They assure the deacons thatthey would be happy to give
generously to the church oncethey are back on their feet.
Another tricky one.
How would you respond?
Jared Grigg (12:26):
Well, first of all, when I read this and there's a
lot, there's some things we'lladdress here, I'm sure, as
brothers.
But the last part I've hadpeople do this in our church,
not necessarily members per sesometimes, but mainly people on
the fringes that are saying,well, hey, I'll give back to you
, as if it's some sort of bribeor something.
I don't like, the we would behappy to give generously to the
(12:48):
church once we were back on ourfeet.
Mercy ministry isn't about yougiving back.
We don't give out donations topeople with interest or even
them having to pay back.
For me, that last part was alittle emotional because it's
like this is not what diaconalmercy ministry is about.
Diaconal ministry is aboutbeing the hands and feet of
(13:08):
Christ and pointing you to thegospel and coming alongside and
working with you in yourstruggles.
I just like when I read this,I'm like, no, this is not about
a tit for tat thing.
If you need help, let's help,but what this?
Lynne Hunter (13:24):
triggered, jared I think it triggered it in you
and it triggered it in me is Ihave an opportunity to present
the gospel and we're going toget deep into this.
So I had the same thought aboutthe give generously part, but
then backing up and looking atthe rest of the scenario is
number one.
On our diaconate and throughoutHarvest Church, there are other
(13:48):
men who are very goodbusinessmen.
I'm going to ask one or two ofthem to help get involved to
look at this thing holistically,not just their budget, need for
food, internet, electric billsbut I want to see, is this
business that they're trying tostart actually even going, gonna
(14:10):
go somewhere?
You know, we we need to look atthe whole thing.
Just being a stop gap might be abad thing.
Is what I'm trying to say.
Can we help with the food,internet and all that?
Yeah, that's the easy part ofthis, because we can do that for
(14:31):
a couple months while we getothers involved to look at the
whole picture, and by doing itmore than one month, it gives us
the opportunity to speak thegospel into their lives and to
get them back onto the rightpath about giving generously.
We should be giving generously,no matter what.
John Stahl (14:50):
Yeah, I like your point.
My question is how do you liveoff your home's equity?
I don't get that?
Bob Keys (14:56):
Oh, I do.
The Home Equity Alliance creditis 8% to 9% today, and it won't
take long to put yourself in sodeep that you'll never have a
retirement.
You never do that, you never,never do that for daily living.
You never do that.
And so they're doing everythingwrong here.
Let's start with Tom.
(15:17):
Tom is losing his job often.
Why is he losing his job often?
I asked that question because Ireally believe Tom's got some
issues with holding a job.
What are they?
We really need to get to thebottom of what's wrong with Tom
in a loving, gracious way tohelp him.
(15:39):
Help him be able to hold on toa job for a long time.
Most employers don't hiresomebody for a short time.
They want a long-term employee,and so, again, helping them
understand how to be a goodemployee and how to be a desired
employee for the company is, tome, one of the first things
that need to be done.
The second thing is Karen needsto find a full-time job.
(16:02):
There's no business here.
You know what the averagefailure rate of a personal
business is.
The first year 35%.
You know what it is in fiveyears 50%.
This isn't good that she has apersonal business.
She needs to find a full-timejob as an empty nester.
She's got the time.
(16:23):
Get a job.
Get a good job, get a job withbenefits if possible, and get
moving.
There's plenty of jobs outthere, even if it's a low-paying
job, get a job and make money.
And Tom needs to find a jobafter the church, or someone in
the church helps analyze what heneeds to do to hold on to a job
(16:43):
, and then he needs to dowhatever it takes to do that and
he's got to be committed tothat.
And again, the home equity lineof credit is just.
That is just beyond mycomprehension.
I had to ask what that meant,but once I heard that it really
was what I thought it was.
What a disaster.
They're going to ruineverything they've ever had,
because that's normally mostpeople's major line of
(17:06):
retirement.
At least 50, 60% is their home,and so again, it's just a very,
very poor thing for emptynesters to do what they're doing
and they need to get back inline with reasonable, wise ways
of handling jobs and handlingfinances and taking care of
business.
Here it's not about giving themmoney or giving them food.
(17:27):
You do that if you have to fora few months but they need to
find work and get out of debtwith this home equity line of
credit.
Jared Grigg (17:36):
I think there's probably two, you know, with Tom
struggling with long-termunemployment.
I don't know how long he's beenunemployed, but let's say it's
a year, two years, maybe it's anextended period of time.
So there's probably a characterissue in there, like you kind
of pointed out, bob, which Iwould want to encourage my
session, whoever his local elderis, to kind of step in and
maybe get involved, becausethere's probably some depression
(17:57):
that he's dealing with, becauseGod calls men very early on to
take dominion and be fruitfuland multiply.
That's what men are made towork, and so men find a lot of
their.
You know, our chief end is toglorify God and enjoy forever,
and enjoying him is working in away, because he's designed us
to do that.
So when you struggle withlong-term employment you're kind
(18:21):
of kicking against the grain inGod's design, and so when we
kick against the grain of God'sdesign, our brains do not
function right.
So I would want to encouragehim to, you know, and as a
deacon I would probably bedirect with him as much as I
could.
I mean, if this I'm 36, I'mtechnically still a younger man,
kind of coming into that, butlet's say this is, this is an
(18:42):
older man right, like I wouldwant to encourage him in the
faith.
That's what the scriptures tellme to do, but I wouldn't want
to be to have this conversationwith him as well, hey, and I
wouldn't want to be to have thisconversation with him as well,
like, hey, man, like you need towork and then not be afraid to
be direct, because I thinksometimes you know men talking
(19:03):
to men like we struggle incertain ways, being passive,
aggressive, or like we don'twant to offend somebody's
feelings, but it's likesometimes you have to be
straight with men and men willrespect you for that and they'll
love you for that.
And a lot of times this is whatpulls people out in a lot of
ways, it's somebody telling themno, be a man and do this, and
that's love.
Bob Keys (19:19):
There's a good verse 1 Timothy 5.8, but if anyone does
not provide for his relatives,and especially his family, he is
deceived of the faith and isworse than an unbeliever.
And that's a harsh verse.
People need to realize they'reresponsible for their families
and they need to work and workhard and be wise.
(19:39):
And again, I'd use that versevery carefully but it's a clear
verse in 1 Timothy.
John Stahl (19:46):
I use it carefully, but I do use it because the Lord
used it in my life.
But I do use it because theLord used it in my life and so I
feel like I can, without shameor being on one up on you and
I'm telling you this is the wayit is, but gently, to tell them
this is what the word says.
You need to think about it.
This is serious business ifyou're not providing for your
(20:08):
own.
Bob Keys (20:12):
Well, I'll ask you to come and speak to if you've gone
through it Again.
It's just do it wisely andcarefully.
Always, always, be careful howyou use scripture.
Don't hurt people, butencourage them in the Lord.
Do what's right and wise.
John Stahl (20:27):
Could family possibly come in to play here
too?
They are empty nesters.
That assumes that they did havea fullness at one point, so
they have children.
So I've encouraged oldermembers to ask their children if
they can help if they haven'tbeen right.
The children have aresponsibility to the parents as
they get older, to provide forthem.
(20:49):
It might seem odd, that mighttake pride swallowing on the
part of Tom especially, but itmay need to be done in this case
just to help them get by untilthey're on their feet again.
Jared Grigg (21:03):
I think, one thing to think about too if these
children are Christian children,I think if my dad were to call
me and say, hey, I need help,like it would be an honor as a
son and I would hope that Iwould be in a situation where I
could do that for my, my parents, right, like that's such a
beautiful thing for for childrento come back and help their
parents.
You know we have a.
We had a situation that thatwas kind of escalated and I
(21:24):
won't get into the details.
It's a little bit differentthan scenario four here with
Karen and Tom.
But we had a lady that was alittle bit older and was
struggling and you know her, herchildren professed the faith.
They weren't in our church andme and another deacon who who
worked pretty closely with them,we were in contact with her son
.
Hey, what are you going to doin this situation?
Like, are you going to step upand do this?
I mean we weren't like super,super direct with him, like that
(21:47):
, but you know we were directenough to say, hey, your mom
needs help, you need to step upand do it.
I don't know where Karen andTom's kids are, but I'd like to
know.
John Stahl (21:56):
Well, I think we had some great discussion today.
Thank you for being here,brothers.
And these were challengingscenarios and I know I was
stimulated by the responses ofthese seasoned deacons.
We hope that our fellow deaconswill find our discussion
helpful and encouraging as theyserve their congregations in the
name of Christ.
David Nakhla (22:18):
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our websitethereformedeacon.
org.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again for another episode of theReformed Deacon Podcast.
Think about how you can get the parents and the
family members interested inwhat you're doing and how you're
caring for them.
Ultimately, it's about thegospel and about encouraging
them to come, ultimately, tochurch, and that may take a long
time.
David Nakhla (00:14):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
John Stahl (00:33):
My name is John Stahl and I am a deacon at
Emanuel OPC in Wilmington,delaware.
I also serve on the OPCCommittee on Diaconal Ministries
.
Thanks for coming back tolisten to part two of the
episode Real World CasesLong-Term Dilemmas with deacons
Bob Keyes, jared Grigg and LynnHunter.
(00:55):
If you didn't catch part oneyet, be sure to go back at some
point to listen to that podcastas well.
For now let's get to the lasttwo scenarios these men discuss.
Let's continue with the nextcase.
Your church calls a one-yearintern.
Three weeks after he and hisfamily arrive you hear from the
pastor the intern's car haspermanently died and he's going
(01:18):
to pick him up for their weeklylunch.
The pastor says nothing abouthelp.
You are a big enough church tocall an intern, but you have a
lower than normal diaconal fund.
Other people have had cartrouble and while you and the
church have offered rides,you've been hesitant to put
money into helping peoplepurchase cars because you
haven't wanted to lay out biggersums, thus depleting the fund.
(01:42):
But you feel like this is morein the taking care of our
pastors category.
You know enough to know that aseminary guy with a family who
isn't independently wealthy isgoing to be taxed by this
situation.
What do you do?
Lynne Hunter (01:57):
First of all, I'll just say it Is this a diaconal
matter?
This is an intern.
He's an employee of the church.
If you give money from thediaconal fund, it is taxable
because he is an employee of thechurch.
So you have to get your taxaccountant out and make sure
(02:21):
that you really want to go thisdirection out and make sure that
you really want to go thisdirection.
Second, I would say and Harvesthas this there should be a
committee on seminary studentfunds.
We have actually two.
We have two committees.
One is seminary student fundand that's local.
(02:41):
And then we have internationalseminary students, where we have
funds those may or may not betaxable if we give them to an
intern.
So that's where I would start.
It's got to go back to yoursession.
(03:01):
Or, if you are like Harvest,you have a set of trustees.
They need to review this.
Now I'm not saying that thechurch can't help, but I'm
saying that you have to thinkabout all the aspects of it
before you start helping, andyour trustees or session unless
the session has delegated thiswork to the deacons need to
(03:26):
think about this when they hireinterns on is can we take care
of our pastors?
So I'll right away.
Tell you I am not in favor ofdiaconal funds going to interns.
Bob Keys (03:43):
We've run into too many problems with it.
I didn't know all that, but Iwould be in favor of looking for
someone that has a used car inthe church You're right, bob or
a car that they are going todonate at a value of zero and
then make sure it getstransferred properly.
This is my main way I would doit.
(04:04):
It's not a small, smallcongregation.
They have an intern.
There's got to be someone therethat's got an older car, that
can see the need, hear the needand respond to the need with a
title and I would pray that thatwould happen and give this
family a car, maybe even twocars.
If you can find two people,give them two cars, but again, a
(04:28):
young family like this.
I tell you, if they can see thechurch give to a need of an
intern, this intern family willbe forever blessed.
And I just think you've got tofind a way to do it.
Lynn, I appreciate your insights, but find a way.
Find a way to show them thelove of Christ.
(04:48):
They have spent two or threeyears in preparing for this.
They've given their life to thegospel and you've got to find a
way to help this family.
I don't care what you do do it.
Talk to your tax accountants.
Whatever you've got to do,you've got to find a way to not
hurt them but help them.
These are your interns, yourpastors and a long-term pastor
(05:11):
in the congregation, in thepresbytery, in the denomination,
and so anything we can do tohelp them, encourage them and
bless them, find a way.
Jared Grigg (05:20):
Whatever it is, find the way just my input is I
see both sides of this and I,you know I wouldn't be for
particularly like if I didn'thave the funds.
Diagonally, it's a one yearcommitment from this guy, so I
don't know Like I kind of seeLynn's point there If this is a
one year thing, like I don'twant to.
I don't want the guy to have topay taxes on money that I would
(05:42):
give him.
Of course we wouldn't, Iwouldn't give him money.
I did this one time for a guyin our church.
He's been there for years,sterling.
He had a car situation.
He came up here from anotherstate and I didn't know how long
he was going to be here.
He's actually an intern now,but he had a situation with a
vehicle where it just crappedout.
(06:04):
I have a business where I gothrough cars like crazy because
I do maintenance work and so Igot technicians that they burn
through cars, so I know how tofind cars and do that, and so I
kind of was like, okay, well, Ican probably do this because
it's not super hard for me tofigure it out, but I just went
through car dealerships and carlights and I ended up getting
the guy and we just bought itwith you know diaconal funds.
(06:26):
It was like a 19 or 2001 or twotoyota corolla with with you
know 100 000 miles on.
It was awesome, right.
And the guy was like he wanted3 000 for it and I negotiated
with I said I'll give you cashright now.
I got him to come down to youknow 2200 or whatever, something
like that, and it was like boom, this is easy.
So the first step I I thinkBob's right Like how do we get
(06:49):
the guy a car and how do wecultivate inside of the church
if it's a large enough church todo this where people in the
congregation can bless thatperson?
And we've had that happen a lot.
Like my first car after I wasmarried came from a guy that
sold it to me in the church forsuper cheap and then I think
(07:12):
that car's still in the airsomewhere.
So if we can, if we can providea vehicle in-house, let's do
that.
If we can't do that, let'sfigure out how like we can get
our minds together with somebodythat knows cars or is pretty
good and everybody's got a carguy or two in their church where
they can kind of help themnavigate.
A low cost, right, becausevehicle, because a vehicle is a
means to an end, like we don'tneed Land Rovers or whatever.
I mean they're cool if you canpay for them cash, but like it's
(07:32):
a devalued, it's not aninvestment.
Get a car that gets you safelyfrom A to B.
That's all you need, right, soyou can do your job.
Particularly because we calledthis guy yeah, he's had a car
problem or the thing died.
Maybe he should have knownabout that.
I don't know, maybe that'sanother discussion that I have,
probably with him, but I do wantto find a way to make sure that
he's able to get to and fromsession meetings and taking his
(07:56):
family where they need to go.
I think it's a necessity thathe has a car and I think it is
on the church on some level toprovide that.
I would never give the guymoney to go buy a car, like I'm
not, like that's out, like I'mnot giving the guy cash or
whatever.
But I do think it is ourresponsibility as a church, if
we call him, is to make surethat he's got a reliable
transportation to the best thatwe can.
Bob Keys (08:18):
The taxes to a young man like this, for an intern's
salary ain't going to be veryhigh.
That's another point that Idon't think even the taxes, if
it has to be that way, would bethat much.
But also, pastors oftentimesget car allowances and things
like that, and so I'm not surehow to do it.
I'm not a tax accountant, but Ithink there are ways to work
(08:40):
this so that there's minimal tax, if any, and ways that you can
do it legitimately and properlyto aid this family.
The other thing that we haven'ttalked about is their families.
Are their families able to helpwith a used car?
Maybe they are and allow thefamily to help them in this
regard, and if they're not, thenfind a way to do it.
Lynne Hunter (09:03):
Hey Bob.
John Stahl (09:04):
What.
Lynne Hunter (09:05):
It's been mentioned a a number of times,
and so I'll just bring up thequestion how do you get families
?
We had the scenario number two.
Now we we've talked about it inscenario number three.
Really, you probably shouldhave said something in scenario
number one how do we getfamilies involved?
John Stahl (09:24):
especially ones that aren't in membership.
Lynne Hunter (09:27):
Might be another whole podcast that we need to
talk about.
Bob Keys (09:31):
I think you talk to the individuals involved in each
of these case studies and seetheir relationship with their
families, talk to them, but youneed a relationship with them
first before you go with thatquestion.
But I think at some pointappropriate point you really
need to know who they are ifthey're not involved in the
church and find out what theyare able to do and how they're
(09:53):
able to help and encourage thesepeople to talk with their
families, communicate and seewhat they really can do and how
they can help and then make itclear what ways they can help to
these cases, to the peopleinvolved.
I think that's where I'd getstarted, and the goal is to even
to get them to come to church.
Think about how you can get theparents and the family members
(10:17):
interested in what you're doingand how you're caring for them.
Ultimately, it's about thegospel and about encouraging
them to come, ultimately, tochurch, and that may take a long
time.
That's not something you wantto do quickly, lynn, but I think
these are the kind of questions, the kind of things that I
would encourage, and I've donesome of that as well
Communication, talk, see whattheir family's like and see what
(10:41):
their hearts are like and seeif they're receptive to coming
to church or helping or whateverthey're able to do, and some
aren't, and that makes it hard.
John Stahl (10:52):
Whether they're members in the church or outside
of the church.
I know for us even morerecently, when we have call-ins,
people calling in for help whoaren't members in the church,
and we always encourage them toask their family members, and
particularly ones that are inthe area that have some kind of
(11:12):
relationship with them.
And often it's just plantingthat seed, that thought in their
minds.
They were either afraid to doit or didn't give a thought, but
just encouraging them to takean initiative to talk to their
family members has often beenthe trick for it.
(11:33):
They took that initiative andmom and dad were very willing to
help, maybe not all the way.
They did what they could.
All right, I think we're readyto move on to our final case.
Karen and Tom are empty nestersand members at your church.
They live off their home'sequity.
(11:54):
Tom struggles with long-termunemployment after multiple
layoffs and succession.
Karen is trying to start asmall business but isn't yet
drawing a salary.
The couple asks the deacons ifthey would help with their food,
internet and electric bills,just until Karen's business
begins to turn a profit.
(12:15):
They assure the deacons thatthey would be happy to give
generously to the church oncethey are back on their feet.
Another tricky one.
How would you respond?
Jared Grigg (12:26):
Well, first of all, when I read this and there's a
lot, there's some things we'lladdress here, I'm sure, as
brothers.
But the last part I've hadpeople do this in our church,
not necessarily members per sesometimes, but mainly people on
the fringes that are saying,well, hey, I'll give back to you
, as if it's some sort of bribeor something.
I don't like, the we would behappy to give generously to the
(12:48):
church once we were back on ourfeet.
Mercy ministry isn't about yougiving back.
We don't give out donations topeople with interest or even
them having to pay back.
For me, that last part was alittle emotional because it's
like this is not what diaconalmercy ministry is about.
Diaconal ministry is aboutbeing the hands and feet of
(13:08):
Christ and pointing you to thegospel and coming alongside and
working with you in yourstruggles.
I just like when I read this,I'm like, no, this is not about
a tit for tat thing.
If you need help, let's help,but what this?
Lynne Hunter (13:24):
triggered, jared I think it triggered it in you
and it triggered it in me is Ihave an opportunity to present
the gospel and we're going toget deep into this.
So I had the same thought aboutthe give generously part, but
then backing up and looking atthe rest of the scenario is
number one.
On our diaconate and throughoutHarvest Church, there are other
(13:48):
men who are very goodbusinessmen.
I'm going to ask one or two ofthem to help get involved to
look at this thing holistically,not just their budget, need for
food, internet, electric billsbut I want to see, is this
business that they're trying tostart actually even going, gonna
(14:10):
go somewhere?
You know, we we need to look atthe whole thing.
Just being a stop gap might be abad thing.
Is what I'm trying to say.
Can we help with the food,internet and all that?
Yeah, that's the easy part ofthis, because we can do that for
(14:31):
a couple months while we getothers involved to look at the
whole picture, and by doing itmore than one month, it gives us
the opportunity to speak thegospel into their lives and to
get them back onto the rightpath about giving generously.
We should be giving generously,no matter what.
John Stahl (14:50):
Yeah, I like your point.
My question is how do you liveoff your home's equity?
I don't get that?
Bob Keys (14:56):
Oh, I do.
The Home Equity Alliance creditis 8% to 9% today, and it won't
take long to put yourself in sodeep that you'll never have a
retirement.
You never do that, you never,never do that for daily living.
You never do that.
And so they're doing everythingwrong here.
Let's start with Tom.
(15:17):
Tom is losing his job often.
Why is he losing his job often?
I asked that question because Ireally believe Tom's got some
issues with holding a job.
What are they?
We really need to get to thebottom of what's wrong with Tom
in a loving, gracious way tohelp him.
(15:39):
Help him be able to hold on toa job for a long time.
Most employers don't hiresomebody for a short time.
They want a long-term employee,and so, again, helping them
understand how to be a goodemployee and how to be a desired
employee for the company is, tome, one of the first things
that need to be done.
The second thing is Karen needsto find a full-time job.
(16:02):
There's no business here.
You know what the averagefailure rate of a personal
business is.
The first year 35%.
You know what it is in fiveyears 50%.
This isn't good that she has apersonal business.
She needs to find a full-timejob as an empty nester.
She's got the time.
(16:23):
Get a job.
Get a good job, get a job withbenefits if possible, and get
moving.
There's plenty of jobs outthere, even if it's a low-paying
job, get a job and make money.
And Tom needs to find a jobafter the church, or someone in
the church helps analyze what heneeds to do to hold on to a job
(16:43):
, and then he needs to dowhatever it takes to do that and
he's got to be committed tothat.
And again, the home equity lineof credit is just.
That is just beyond mycomprehension.
I had to ask what that meant,but once I heard that it really
was what I thought it was.
What a disaster.
They're going to ruineverything they've ever had,
because that's normally mostpeople's major line of
(17:06):
retirement.
At least 50, 60% is their home,and so again, it's just a very,
very poor thing for emptynesters to do what they're doing
and they need to get back inline with reasonable, wise ways
of handling jobs and handlingfinances and taking care of
business.
Here it's not about giving themmoney or giving them food.
(17:27):
You do that if you have to fora few months but they need to
find work and get out of debtwith this home equity line of
credit.
Jared Grigg (17:36):
I think there's probably two, you know, with Tom
struggling with long-termunemployment.
I don't know how long he's beenunemployed, but let's say it's
a year, two years, maybe it's anextended period of time.
So there's probably a characterissue in there, like you kind
of pointed out, bob, which Iwould want to encourage my
session, whoever his local elderis, to kind of step in and
maybe get involved, becausethere's probably some depression
(17:57):
that he's dealing with, becauseGod calls men very early on to
take dominion and be fruitfuland multiply.
That's what men are made towork, and so men find a lot of
their.
You know, our chief end is toglorify God and enjoy forever,
and enjoying him is working in away, because he's designed us
to do that.
So when you struggle withlong-term employment you're kind
(18:21):
of kicking against the grain inGod's design, and so when we
kick against the grain of God'sdesign, our brains do not
function right.
So I would want to encouragehim to, you know, and as a
deacon I would probably bedirect with him as much as I
could.
I mean, if this I'm 36, I'mtechnically still a younger man,
kind of coming into that, butlet's say this is, this is an
(18:42):
older man right, like I wouldwant to encourage him in the
faith.
That's what the scriptures tellme to do, but I wouldn't want
to be to have this conversationwith him as well, hey, and I
wouldn't want to be to have thisconversation with him as well,
like, hey, man, like you need towork and then not be afraid to
be direct, because I thinksometimes you know men talking
(19:03):
to men like we struggle incertain ways, being passive,
aggressive, or like we don'twant to offend somebody's
feelings, but it's likesometimes you have to be
straight with men and men willrespect you for that and they'll
love you for that.
And a lot of times this is whatpulls people out in a lot of
ways, it's somebody telling themno, be a man and do this, and
that's love.
Bob Keys (19:19):
There's a good verse 1 Timothy 5.8, but if anyone does
not provide for his relatives,and especially his family, he is
deceived of the faith and isworse than an unbeliever.
And that's a harsh verse.
People need to realize they'reresponsible for their families
and they need to work and workhard and be wise.
(19:39):
And again, I'd use that versevery carefully but it's a clear
verse in 1 Timothy.
John Stahl (19:46):
I use it carefully, but I do use it because the Lord
used it in my life.
But I do use it because theLord used it in my life and so I
feel like I can, without shameor being on one up on you and
I'm telling you this is the wayit is, but gently, to tell them
this is what the word says.
You need to think about it.
This is serious business ifyou're not providing for your
(20:08):
own.
Bob Keys (20:12):
Well, I'll ask you to come and speak to if you've gone
through it Again.
It's just do it wisely andcarefully.
Always, always, be careful howyou use scripture.
Don't hurt people, butencourage them in the Lord.
Do what's right and wise.
John Stahl (20:27):
Could family possibly come in to play here
too?
They are empty nesters.
That assumes that they did havea fullness at one point, so
they have children.
So I've encouraged oldermembers to ask their children if
they can help if they haven'tbeen right.
The children have aresponsibility to the parents as
they get older, to provide forthem.
(20:49):
It might seem odd, that mighttake pride swallowing on the
part of Tom especially, but itmay need to be done in this case
just to help them get by untilthey're on their feet again.
Jared Grigg (21:03):
I think, one thing to think about too if these
children are Christian children,I think if my dad were to call
me and say, hey, I need help,like it would be an honor as a
son and I would hope that Iwould be in a situation where I
could do that for my, my parents, right, like that's such a
beautiful thing for for childrento come back and help their
parents.
You know we have a.
We had a situation that thatwas kind of escalated and I
(21:24):
won't get into the details.
It's a little bit differentthan scenario four here with
Karen and Tom.
But we had a lady that was alittle bit older and was
struggling and you know her, herchildren professed the faith.
They weren't in our church andme and another deacon who who
worked pretty closely with them,we were in contact with her son
.
Hey, what are you going to doin this situation?
Like, are you going to step upand do this?
I mean we weren't like super,super direct with him, like that
(21:47):
, but you know we were directenough to say, hey, your mom
needs help, you need to step upand do it.
I don't know where Karen andTom's kids are, but I'd like to
know.
John Stahl (21:56):
Well, I think we had some great discussion today.
Thank you for being here,brothers.
And these were challengingscenarios and I know I was
stimulated by the responses ofthese seasoned deacons.
We hope that our fellow deaconswill find our discussion
helpful and encouraging as theyserve their congregations in the
name of Christ.
David Nakhla (22:18):
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our websitethereformedeacon.
org.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again for another episode of theReformed Deacon Podcast.
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