June 1, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode, host Tim Hopper (Shiloh OPC, Raleigh, NC) is joined by fellow seasoned deacons Lynne Hunter (Harvest OPC, Wyoming, MI) and Bob Keys (Grace OPC, Columbus, OH) to wrestle through several thought-provoking real-world scenarios.
Consider what you might do if your church had a budget surplus or a woman visits your church asking for rent money for her motel stay; what the proper process is when a charity approaches your diaconate for support or when a church member asks for tuition help for her last semester of art school.
Tune in to hear how Tim, Lynne, and Bob suggest working through each scenario—and then bring the conversation to your own diaconate! A few of these were submitted by Joel Vander Kooi, a deacon at Redeemer OPC in Airdrie, Alberta—thanks, Joel! (He got a cool The Reformed Deacon t-shirt for his suggestions.)
Referenced in this episode:
Suggested guidelines and questions for a deacon to ask a stranger
You can find all of our episodes at thereformeddeacon.org. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for giveaways and more information. Find other resources on OPCCDM.org. Make sure to send us some feedback on your podcast player or ask a diaconal question by going to OPCCDM.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bob Keys (00:00):
This is what I always like ways to verify her story,
and there are ways you can dothis.
Tell her at some point,appropriately, we do not give
cash, our policy is never togive cash and then watch her
response.
Watch her eyes, watch her bodylanguage.
That will tell you immenselywhere she's coming from.
David Nakhla (00:21):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon.
A casual conversation withtopics specifically designed to
help the Reformed Deacon.
A casual conversation withtopics specifically designed to
help local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
Tim Hopper (00:40):
Hello, this is Tim Hopper.
I'm a deacon at Shiloh OrthodoxPresbyterian Church in Raleigh,
north Carolina, and a member ofthe OPC Committee on Diaconal
Ministries.
On today's episode of theReformed Deacon, we're doing
another real-world casesdiscussion with two voices that
you've heard before on thesereal-world cases Mr Lynn Hunter,
who's a deacon at Harvest OPCin Michigan, and Mr Bob Keyes,
(01:03):
who's a deacon at Grace OPC inOhio.
Both of these brothers haveserved their churches for many
years and have a lot of wisdomto share.
Welcome, lynn and Bob.
Thank you Good morning.
Before we dive in, I want to doa quick shout out to a deacon,
joel Vander Kooi from RedeemerOPC in Airdrie, alberta, canada,
for sending in a few of thescenarios we're using today.
(01:26):
Thank you very much, joel, andto our listeners if you've got
ideas, we'd love to hear them.
You can tap the text us underour logo in your podcast app or
send an email to mail atthereformeddeaconorg.
And just to let you know, joelis getting a very nice Reformed
Deacon t-shirt for contributingthese case studies.
(01:47):
Guys, let's jump into our firstscenario.
We have four today.
It's the end of the year and youdiscover you have a surplus in
the church budget.
What do you do with it?
Should it be used to pay offthe mortgage or put it towards
the building fund?
Do we give our missionariesabove what we have committed to
them already?
Do we put it towards thebuilding fund?
Do we give our missionariesabove what we have committed to
them already?
Do we split it among causesthat we collect for?
(02:09):
Do we roll it forward to nextyear's budget?
How should we handle thissurplus situation?
I think actually, before wejump into this, maybe a useful
data point would be just aglimpse of how your deacons are
involved in your church budgetand finances at the general
budget level.
Our deacons are involved inyour church budget and finances
at the general budget level.
Bob Keys (02:26):
Our deacons are primarily the ones that do the
initial budgeting of each year.
We put the budget together.
It takes about two months to doit, maybe even three.
So we start early and we getinput from the congregation and
then, once we put it together,we agree on it as deacons.
Then we move it then to theelders and let them go over it
and make any changes that theysee are necessary.
(02:48):
But we talk to pastors, we talkto so many people about it and
work together.
We have one primary guy thatI'm going to refer to here
because I asked him about it.
He's our finance guy.
He is a certified publicaccountant, and so he does an
excellent job for us certifiedpublic accountant and so he does
an excellent job for us, and sothat's how we do it, and all I
can say is that he's just soimportant to our congregation to
(03:09):
put our budget together.
Lynne Hunter (03:17):
Well, harvest is.
On the other end, we have agroup of trustees.
They take care of all budgetingmatters concerning the church.
The only money they do not haveresponsibility for is the
benevolent fund, and they takecare of the budget.
They would decide what wouldhappen on this rollover and then
it becomes just like Bob'schurch.
Once they have the budget set,they send it to the sessions and
(03:39):
session approves it or makesuggestions of changes approves
it or makes suggestions ofchanges.
In the case of this excess,first question that came to me
is have they paid all theirpresbytery and general assembly
dues?
If it's excess, after that,then I'm going to look at what
Harvest has done, where theyhave split that excess and taken
(04:02):
a given part of it tobenevolent fund and the rest
goes out to missionaries that wesupport within our presbytery.
We have a building fund that ispart of the budget.
If we had a major buildingprogram going on, that might be
something that we'd contributeto, but we put the spreading of
(04:24):
the gospel ahead of buildingbrick and mortar.
Tim Hopper (04:28):
The Harvest, I believe, is the largest
congregation in the OPC and Ithink probably things are going
to potentially be more maybestructured than some of our
churches, so I think that'suseful as just for folks who are
listening, to keep in mind youmight not do things exactly the
same way.
I think we're all actually fromrelatively large congregations,
OPC wise, so take that for whatit is.
Bob Keys (04:50):
Tim, we're not from that big as a harvest, but this
question reminds me of our ownpersonal budgets.
Life's full of changes.
Our lives are full of changes,and so we really need to plan,
even with our own accesses, whatwe're going to do with it, and
we each have so many differentways to go.
We need a new car, we need anew down payment for a house
(05:11):
that we want to purchase, wehave a hot water tank or a roof
that needs to be replaced, wehave a new baby coming, we have
retirement and we have even acollege expenses for our
children.
This is the same as our churchat least.
We have so many differentthings that take need, and they
change each year.
In our cases, they change.
I'll mention just a few thatour church has had in the last
(05:31):
five or 10 years that haveneeded a lot of money put
towards them, and I think we'vealways got to look ahead.
What do we need to continue ourministry, to grow the church and
to grow his people?
And, for instance, we'restarting a new church 30 miles
from our church this coming year.
What's that going to take?
(05:51):
It's going to take money, notonly from the denomination, the
presbytery, but it's also goingto take our money, and so we're
starting to already plan forthat new church to be funded by
our church, and that takes money.
We also need a new flooring.
A year and a half ago and we gota big building, so that was a
huge expense in our buildingfund.
We brought on a third pastor ayear and a half ago and that was
(06:14):
a huge new transition as well.
And if you don't plan for that,you can't do it.
You've got to grow and you'vegot to plan for that major
expense.
You're talking about a hundredplus thousands of dollars to
fund that third pasture and thenadding on to our facilities.
We've added on maybe 12 yearsago and there's even talk about
adding on again and that's not aone year or two year or three
(06:35):
year plan.
That's major.
You don't want to go into hugedebt and so you're talking about
millions for any kind ofsubstantial building expansion
program.
So those are the kind of thingsthat you've got to look in the
future and say these are thekind of things we need to grow
and to be a productive church ofJesus Christ.
What do we need to continuethat growth and that ministry to
(06:57):
people?
And so I agree with Lynn.
Our ministry to people is whatwe've always got to plan for and
always got to look carefullywhat do we need and how can we
plan wisely for the things thatwe need?
And the Lord does provide.
That's the other thing.
We've always had a surplus atGrace the last 10, 15 years, and
the way in which we use thatmoney shows us our love and our
(07:18):
dedication to our Savior.
Tim Hopper (07:20):
Very good answers, guys.
I wouldn't change much in myown situation other than
mentioning something that hasn'tbeen mentioned, which is one
option for folks is just makingadditional contributions to the
OPC Worldwide Outreach Fund,which supports our home missions
, foreign missions and Christianeducation the past with funds,
(07:45):
and that can be a big help there.
But yeah, I think there's not,obviously there's just not a
single answer to this.
It's something that everybody'sgoing to have to consider in
their own situation.
But I think to Bob's point,very wise to be thinking
proactively about this and notjust letting it come and
surprise you.
Bob Keys (07:57):
Can I put in what my finance guy?
He's a certified publicaccountant.
He had a great statement hereand I'd like to read it.
In situations where giving hasexceeded expenses for a
particular year, it is importantto handle that surplus wisely.
As a board of deacons, we mightask one another does the church
already have sufficientreserves in its general fund?
(08:18):
If so, the next question mightbe what long-term capital
projects for our church are onthe horizon.
Are those adequately funded, orshould some of those surpluses
be set aside for other suchprojects?
When it comes to thinking aboutpaying off a down payment on a
mortgage, contemplate thecurrent interest rate the church
is paying, the length of timeremaining on the mortgage and
(08:39):
the amount that would be savedif you pay it off or don't pay
it off, and then process thatbased on other needs that are
important in the future for thechurch.
Tim Hopper (08:49):
Very good.
No, that's a great answer.
Bob Keys (08:51):
That was Andrew's answer.
By the way, he's a wise man.
That's what Deacon's all aboutis having men that are gifted
I'm not gifted in taking care ofall the finances, but boy
Andrew is, and that's just theblessing of the church is to
have men that are good.
Tim Hopper (09:05):
Yeah, I think that's something that always is so
clear in these discussions.
Having a multitude ofcounselors and being able to
have these discussions, I think,helps us make better decisions
here.
Let's move on to scenarionumber two.
This one's a little bit longerof a setup.
Paula seems familiar.
As you talk to her, you arewondering whether she has
visited before today.
She has been sharing with youthat she has a single mom and a
(09:28):
widow living in an extended staylow budget hotel.
Your guess is that she's in herearly forties.
She's approached you after theservice to request help with
rent for a week.
She does not have a car.
She works part-time doingcleaning, but primarily lives on
SSDI, which is Social SecurityDisability, which provides
monthly payments to people withdisabilities and older adults
(09:50):
who have little or no incomeresources.
Paula gets food stamps.
She's missed a couple shiftsthis week and is short on rent
money.
She is pleasant, clean, polite,dressed, neatly and seems
intelligent, though admittedlynot highly educated.
You have offered her some foodfrom the church food pantry, but
she only has a hot plate tocook on and so she can't really
use it.
You have about $20 of cash inyour wallet and there's probably
(10:13):
$50 in cash available at thechurch in the deacon's cabinet.
What are your thoughts?
Lynne Hunter (10:18):
First time she's asked.
We're probably going to help,but it's not going to be with
cash.
It's going to be a checkwritten out to the person that
she pays her rent to or companythat she pays her rent to.
And the reason we're going tohelp is this gives me an
opportunity to continue talkingwith her with a follow-up basis
(10:41):
of how things going, invitingher back to church the next week
, getting to know her a littlemore, getting her under gospel
preaching, maybe on a weeklybasis or twice a Sunday.
But this always gives us anopening to help and to get into
somebody's life.
And then we'll start takingcare of maybe some other issues
(11:03):
budgeting issues down the road.
But let's first get this firstchance and use it wisely to get
into her life.
Bob Keys (11:12):
I like your response.
This is a hard one.
This is a tough situation forevery deacon.
If they're in the diaconatelong enough, they're going to
experience these kind ofdifficult situations.
I think it takes two steps andI'll mention both of them.
The first one is wisdom anddiscernment.
I think this is what is soneeded for every deacon, and
(11:34):
Acts talks about it as well.
Men of wisdom.
The second is diaconal care andstewardship.
That Lynn talked about wisely,and I'm going to talk about each
one of those specifically.
I want to believe Paula.
You want to believe she hasreally wanted a relationship
with the church.
You really want to believe sheis telling you everything
truthfully.
But wisdom and discernment arerequired.
(11:57):
The majority of the time inthese situations like Paula's,
the person is simply attemptingto get the church to give them
cash so they can spend it onwhat they want.
This is where wisdom anddiscernment come in.
First.
I thank God and praise God thatshe's calm and she's talking in
the church.
Praise God, you don't take thatfor lightly.
It's important that you seethat as a great opportunity for
(12:18):
the gospel of Christ.
But I would ask her manyquestions and again, going into
it, you have to realize this isgoing to take time, energy,
stress from one or two or moredeacons, and so you don't go
into this thinking it's just afive or ten minute time.
This takes time, energy and, Iguarantee, stress.
Not easy.
(12:39):
Some of the questions I wouldask.
And you're looking to find outher full story.
If you've got time, take her.
Make sure you're not alone.
I'll talk about that severaltimes.
You're not alone with it.
Where has she attended church inthe past?
I think that's one of the mostimportant questions you can ask
her.
What other relationships hasshe had with the church of Jesus
Christ, true Bible-believingchurches?
Has she had any?
And if she hasn't, thatprobably changes things as well.
(13:02):
How long has she been a widow?
You don't know.
Ask her how long she's been awidow.
How old are her children andhow many children does she have
and why didn't they come withher?
Does she have other family inthe area?
Is she living with anyone otherthan her children?
Interesting question.
I think that's important.
Does she have a boyfriend?
Does she live with anotherwoman?
What else is going on in thathome?
Even in that hotel, it's a home.
(13:22):
How did she learn about yourchurch?
Important question how did sheget to your church today?
Who drove her there?
If you don't know of a hotelclose?
Someone drove her there, andwhere is the hotel that she's
living at now and how long hasshe been there?
I mean, these aren't all thequestions.
These are just some typicalkind of questions I would ask
right off the bat.
In this situation, you must askquestions where you can verify
(13:44):
her truthfulness, and I want tobelieve them.
I told you from the verybeginning I want to believe her
story, but you've got to findout whether she's really
truthful.
So I encourage you to bringanother deacon, if you can, when
you're talking with her, soanother deacon can hear and ask
questions.
Bring your wife along, bringher right there beside you and
(14:04):
let her be a part of thatconversation with this woman.
My rules, and Lynn, you hit onthe first one Never, never, give
cash.
Never, even with your owncongregants.
It's just not wise to give cash.
You're right.
If you're going to giveanything, you're going to give a
check directly to the hotel.
Exactly, lynn, you couldn't bemore right.
No, being alone with this woman.
(14:27):
I can't emphasize that enough.
You're jeopardizing your ownperson and the church.
You're a deacon, so make sureyou have another deacon or your
wife with you at all times orthe congregation around you.
You've got to have all thoseprotections when you do this
kind of work and do not tell herright off the bat that you're
going to help her.
(14:47):
I would try to verify what I'mtalking about sufficiently
before you say anything aboutgiving anything.
And if you do, then give herone to two days rent, not a week
or two or five or 10.
One or two days will get youmore time.
And the other thing always bewilling to give food.
She's got a hot plate.
I'll give her a microwave.
I got a spare microwave.
I'll give her a microwave, butgive her food.
(15:08):
Food stamps aren't sufficientgenerally for someone to live
off, and so food should be yourprimary way to give help.
Ask her to come to your eveningservice.
That is a big one, I mean.
If you've got an eveningservice, that is just the
primary way to get her back in,where you can have more time to
talk to the deacons and you canset up a way in which you can do
it in terms of verifying moreabout what she's doing and get
(15:30):
her more involved in theservices and other women Ways to
verify her story.
This is what I always like.
I like ways to verify her storyand there are ways you can do
this.
If you're really astute, youcan do it.
Tell her at some pointappropriately we do not give
cash.
Our policy is never to givecash and then watch her response
(15:51):
.
Watch her eyes, watch her bodylanguage.
That will tell you immenselywhere she's coming from.
Get good at that.
Look her straight in the eyesand say our policy is we cannot
give you cash, and then justgive it a few seconds and see
how she responds.
Tell her that you can drive herhome she didn't have a car so
you can drive her home with yourwife or another deacon and that
(16:14):
you can meet with the hotelmanager.
The hotel manager is going totell you, but you can certainly
work with her and the hotelmanager to arrange for whatever
it needs if it goes that far.
Most of the time it will not gothat far if she's not telling
the truth, but if she is, you'llget an opportunity to see where
(16:35):
she's living.
Ask her to bring her kids down.
Don't go into her apartment.
Do not go into her apartment.
Have the kids come down andmeet with you and your wife and
by doing that you're going tolearn a tremendous amount.
I'm assuming that she's 45, herkids are going to be grown,
maybe 16, 18, 20, 30.
So, again, having the kids comedown, I think, is another great
(16:55):
, great opportunity to get youinvolved with their family.
I think these are the kind ofthings I would.
And again, I'm not sure thatyou're going to be able to get
her SSI paperwork anddocumentation and other
verifications, food stamps butthat's another approach as well
and I probably wouldn't takethat one.
But it's another way to clearlyverify that she's really in the
kind of need that she's in.
You know, it's just anotheroption you have, but I probably
(17:18):
wouldn't use that, at leastinitially.
But getting to the hotel andseeing the office manager there
will tell you a tremendousamount about the real situation,
if you can get that far.
Lynne Hunter (17:27):
I'll give you one more thing we have at Harvest
because of the metropolitan areathat we live in, we have a
basically it's a clearing housesfor churches.
It's called access and what wedo on any of these cases whether
they come into this churchthey're not church members we
get their driver's licensenumber, last four, their social
(17:51):
security, their phone number anddate of birth and this all goes
to this clearinghouse.
That clearinghouse then has arecord of churches helping.
If they see this person has A,they've gone to church A, church
B and they're at harvest, thatmakes red flag.
But if there's no red flags now, they have a record of hey,
(18:12):
harvest is helping this personwith this amount of money and if
that comes up on their radaragain then they can flag it for
other churches.
The other thing this does is onbigger needs.
They also help with finding newhousing or getting more than
one church involved to pay alarger bill.
(18:33):
We've helped with largerhospital bills through this
group.
So use all your resources.
Don't just think it's just yourchurch that has to foot this or
take care of it all.
There's lots more resources outin the world that we can use to
help on these situations.
Bob Keys (18:50):
I agree with you, len.
We have an organization we workwith in Columbus and they are
really good.
They're certainly Christian,bible-based, and we use them to
help us with more specifics thatwe are not as good at as they
are, and so we volunteer attimes with them and they know us
.
We've had men that have reallyled some of their areas of
(19:13):
ministry and so we work closelywith them on these kind of
things as well, and I agree, ifyou can have someone in your
community to help you walkbeside these people, it's so
important.
I had a couple other things andI didn't talk enough about the
diaconal care and stewardship.
I think this is the othersection that's so important.
This is a gospel ministry and,as I mentioned, it's so
(19:35):
important that we care for thesepeople that come to our
churches that need help.
This is diaconal ministry and Ithink, as the story proves to
be truthful and right, we wantto connect this woman and her
family with other godly womenand children in our church, get
them involved in a Bible studyand bring their children to see
the gospel of Christ acted outin a godly way in our church and
(19:58):
this shows them the gospel thechildren need to see the gospel
of Jesus Christ.
This is so important, and so,if they really are there, we
want them as well.
We want to present the gospelof Jesus Christ to them.
I think one thing that we do notdo well as deacons and I am
learning to do this better andbetter is to pray with and for
these people that come.
(20:18):
Well, all are diaconal ministrypeople.
Whatever we do diaconally, weshould be praying with them and
for God's work in their heartsand their lives.
We should pray for her life,for her heart, and that she'll
come back and be involved andcontinue to receive the love and
care in the community ofbelievers of Jesus Christ, and
we should also share the simplegospel of Christ with her again
and again, in concert with thediaconal ministry that she's
(20:42):
receiving.
I think it's most important ofall.
I mean, if we're not doing this, then we're not really doing
diaconal care and stewardship.
It has to do with her heart andwhat we can do in terms of
ministering to her heart for thecause of Christ.
We can give her all the thingsin the world, but the most
important thing she has are hopeand Christ.
Tim Hopper (21:00):
Great answers, guys.
One follow-up here is we haveoften, in situations like this,
gone straight to the hotel orwherever the person's staying
and just tried to pay, even justshowing up at the desk and just
paying ourselves.
And often you know a budgethotel, they're not going to
complain about somebody doingthat.
We've had things happen likefinding out someone said, oh, I
(21:21):
can't afford my rent this week,and then you find out they've
just been going around tochurches and they're prepaid for
weeks ahead of time throughdoing this kind of thing.
Or a similar situation a womansaying, oh, I need a hotel
because I'm in this shelter, butthe shelter has all these
problems I think she was sayingit had bedbugs and all these
things.
And we spoke to the shelter andfound out this lady was just a
(21:43):
serial liar about things that'sgoing on.
And, bob, you've alluded severaltimes to getting the truthful
story.
But how do we handle thesesituations?
And maybe this needs to be awhole nother real world
discussion podcast.
But how do we handle thesesituations?
If someone is lying, it doesn'tmean that they don't need help.
How do we handle them lying tous?
Bob Keys (22:03):
I think you pray with don't let them get out the door
without prayer.
I think you're going towardsthe heart and we all sin and we
all fall short of the glory ofGod.
But Christ, that's our hope.
Bring them back.
It's never too late to helpsomeone with mercy, ministry,
and so, again, if you findthey're lying, don't just shut
them out.
Pray with them, encourage them,talk about the gospel, what
(22:24):
that means, what that reallymeans in this situation, and
offer more help.
Come back, be a part of thechurch.
We are here, we want to serveyou, we want to show you the
love of Christ.
Come back and let us talk withyou and encourage you and bless
you.
Tim Hopper (22:44):
Very good.
I'll just mention one otherthing before we move on.
I think that what Grand Rapidshas in terms of a church kind of
clearinghouse thing is unusualand not unusual in a bad way,
it's just not very common but agreat thing.
But there is also for those inthe US, the United Way, which is
not a Christian organization atall.
I think all over the US you candial 211 on the phone and get
in touch with the United Way,which they provide information
(23:06):
about community resources thatmay or may not be religious
affiliated and all the caveatsabout maybe, if they are
religious affiliated.
But if someone is saying theycan't afford housing and you're
wanting to find out what are theresources that may be available
outside our church, in yourcommunity, your local United Way
, which you can access through211, is a good place to start
there.
(23:27):
Let's move on to our next case.
This is a short one.
The church is approached by acharity seeking support.
What are the criteria you'regoing to use before supporting a
cause?
Do your deacons have a preparedflow chart type decision
process that you handle on acase-by-case basis?
How do you think through this?
Bob Keys (23:45):
I think the best way to handle it is ahead.
This is something you canprepare for, I think, up ahead
with leadership of the church, Ithink.
Develop a clear church policywith the elders and deacons
concerning how the churchordinarily gives to or doesn't
give to charities.
I think there's three areashere.
(24:05):
There are probably more, butI'll mention three.
Identify clearly charitieswhich the leadership
specifically wants to supportand to the extent they want to
support them.
I think we have severalcharities that we know that we
want to give towards, and so wespecifically set out monies each
year for those to give towards,and so we specifically set out
(24:27):
monies each year for those.
And it's clear and we havedefinite reasons why we're doing
it.
Number two is determine how tohandle charities or giving
members of the church that haverequests for things that they're
doing mission projects orthings like that charities even
outside the church, within andwithout the church.
Get an idea how to handlemembers and their requests.
Be clear Again.
Remember you have congregantsthat can give to this and want
(24:49):
to give to this.
So be wise in how you set yourpolicy and how you can best
serve the church and serve yourmembers in your policy.
And the last one I have is toChristian charities that have
really no relationship with yourchurch.
And this is the final one.
I mean I surely wouldn't wantto give to non-Christian
charities.
I can't see many reasons whywe'd want to do that.
Maybe, but Christian charitiespossibly.
(25:12):
But how do we do that?
And I think again, talk aboutit, work it out with the
leadership and decide early onso that there's no
misunderstandings, no questions.
When you have a request, youknow kind of what answer you
need to be given.
Lynne Hunter (25:30):
Yeah, we do pretty much the same thing.
We have a list of basicallythey're mostly mission work that
we prepare at the beginning ofour fiscal year every year, and
we have a collection schedule.
Some of them are in the generalbudget, but the rest of them
are part of a special collectionschedule that we put out at the
beginning of the year and anyof those congregation is allowed
to contribute to any time ofthe year.
(25:52):
Ones that come through us let'ssay they've sent a letter and
it's gotten to the secretary,who's handed it to me we as a
diaconate will then startvetting them.
What are their Christianprinciples?
What is their belief?
Are they Reformed?
Are they Calvinist?
And we have strained more thanone of them out and said, no,
(26:14):
we're not going to help becausethey just don't line up with
what we do or what we believe asa church.
Those ones that are other ones,it's basically all case by case
, and so then you know, go backto the diaconate and then, if
it's a big enough issue, it'llgo to session.
But more than likely we havealready got done all the
(26:35):
background work before it evengets to a deacon's meeting.
So that you know, one or twodeacons have worked on this,
gotten all the information,presented it at a deacon's
meeting and it either goesforward or it doesn't go forward
.
But basic criteria does theirdoctrine line up with our
doctrine?
Our whole job is to helppromote the gospel.
Tim Hopper (26:56):
Only in Grand Rapids do you have the privilege of
asking if the charities areCalvinist, though.
Lynne Hunter (27:03):
Okay, so you can look at it in a different way.
You look at their statement offaith and say is that statement
of faith lining up with thestatement of faith of any OPC
church?
Yes, basically an OPC church,whether it's in Ohio or
Pennsylvania or Canada, ourstatements of faith are all the
(27:25):
same.
So is this charity's statementof faith lining up with what we
believe?
So okay, you can take theCalvinist part out and say does
the statement of faith line upwith what we believe?
Tim Hopper (27:44):
these quote Christian ministries,
evangelical ministries that arebelieving that their ultimate
purpose is seeing people to cometo know the Savior and not.
We're helping you find your ownway, your own path, which is,
you know, we have a lot of veryliberal churches here that have
various kinds of ministries thatwe would be less likely to
support.
Bob Keys (27:59):
I think it's important .
Our deacons always see itimportant to talk with the
elders if we have any question.
I think you can get into a lotof trouble if you really just
move ahead as deacon board toapprove things.
So we normally, if it's notwithin the OPC charity type
stuff, we generally arecontacting our elders and
letting them weigh in as well onwhat we think.
(28:19):
So I think that's reallyimportant and again, I think we
should also encourage members tosupport well-run,
Bible-believing Christiancharities outside our
congregation after they givetheir tithes and offerings to
the church.
This is what God wants as well.
He wants us all to serve thechurch, the greater church, by
ministering to other needs thechurch may not want to get
(28:41):
involved with, but need to behandled and used to see the
gospel go forward in ourcommunities and in the United
States and the world.
So again, that's where a lot ofChristians can get involved
with and be a blessing to othersand blessing to themselves by
serving the Lord this way.
Tim Hopper (28:57):
Let's move on to our last scenario.
Kristen, a member of yourchurch, was recently sharing
with you that she has beendenied tuition assistance for
her final semester of communitycollege, where she is an art
major.
She is estranged from herparents and supports herself
with a part-time job as adrugstore cashier.
Kristen doesn't have the moneyto cover tuition and asks that
the deacons could help her justthis once.
What should we do?
Bob Keys (29:18):
I believe that your primary job in this particular
scenario is to help Kirsten withher life planning.
Getting a degree from acommunity college is a long way
from getting her prepared andinto a career job time job in an
area out in art or graphic artsor blog design or all kinds of
(29:42):
different things she could dowith art, which is a wonderful
area, or even apprenticeship,where she can put into practice
what she's already learned andtest to see if this area is
really her passion or not.
Take six or 12 months off, payyour debts off and get
experience in the area of yourinterest.
I mean, there's all kinds ofoptions.
Again, what you're going to bedoing is just encouraging her to
(30:02):
think.
Another option is to reduce hercredit hours at the college and
get a full-time job in the areaof her interest maybe not
cashier, but an area of herinterest and finish in a year or
18 months, rather than in thenext three to six months.
Again, delaying this stuff isn'tbad.
It might be really, really goodfor her.
And rather than asking formoney, simply give her wisdom,
(30:26):
at least initially, of whatoptions she might have other
than asking for money.
And again, the number one thingI would do is pray with her
again.
What a blessing to be able topray with this young woman
starting her life, gettingeducation and jobs, and pray
that God would provide for herneeds in these tangible ways of
delaying and doing the rightthings.
So those are some things Iwould think about doing.
And get other people involved.
There's probably other peoplethat are really able and capable
(30:48):
of life planning wisdom, and sodon't be the only one there.
Get another woman or anotherperson qualified in the area to
talk with her and to encourageher and to walk side by side
with her down this path and helpher to find a job.
Help her to find the right jobthat really could be
encouragement to her and reallya platform for her long-term
(31:08):
employment.
Lynne Hunter (31:09):
I would agree with Bob Paying tuition.
Although it's a nice, it's nota must and there are other ways
that this could be accomplished.
This is also a place where youprobably could reach out into
your congregation and find othereducators that could help
counsel this young lady.
Maybe it is taking a whole yearoff, maybe it is just cutting
(31:33):
down the number of credit hoursso that you can afford this
semester and stretching the timeout a little bit.
I really like Bob's suggestionof hey, find a job in the area
you're working with and try itout, take an internship for a
year.
So yeah, it's not the answershe's going to want to hear, but
it's probably the answer she'sgoing to need to hear.
But there's one other thing italso gives you the time and the
(31:57):
ability to work with her, notjust once.
You can start building acontinuing relationship and
finding out why she's estrangedfrom her parents, finding out
what else can we help with,where else can we help, and
maybe it's a matter of gettingher involved in the church so
that she can see a biggerpicture than just her life at
(32:19):
this point in time.
Bob Keys (32:20):
Lynn, I really appreciate your point about her
family.
That's the biggest concern Ihad.
It wasn't about her job and allthis stuff, it was about her
family.
Now again, there are reasonswhy she may be estranged.
There may be reasons I canmention 10 different reasons why
she may be estranged and it maynot ever be a possibility that
she ever develops a relationshipwith them.
But if at all possible, thisyoung woman needs to be able to
(32:44):
rebind this relationship withher family, if at all possible.
For me, that's even moreimportant than anything else.
This hurts to hear.
Is there someone in the church,another woman that can help her
do this?
Can someone come from the otherside and bring the family back
to her?
I don't know, I mean, but thisis the thing that concerns me
the most of all.
This situation is herestrangement with her family,
which is the most importantthing for her, I believe, right
(33:05):
now.
Tim Hopper (33:06):
I'm going to offer a little bit of a different
perspective based on two detailshere.
And I think y'all areabsolutely right that this is a
great opportunity to be jumpingin and trying to help this young
woman and just thinking abouther life and career and things.
But I think two aspects of thisone is this is community
college and two is that, thisbeing her last semester, I just
(33:28):
looked up here in North Carolinaa semester of community
colleges for in-state is betweena thousand and $2,000.
So we're talking about arelatively small amount of money
and that small amount of moneyis getting her yes to an art
degree from community college,which maybe isn't the most
valuable thing in life, but it'sgoing to put her in a position
where for the rest of her lifeshe can say I have an
(33:49):
associate's degree versus I onlyhave a high school degree,
which for better or worse, it isgoing to be meaningful in
employers and it's going to bemeaningful in her own life in
saying, oh, I completed andaccomplished something.
So you know, I think if thiswas saying, oh, I didn't get
assistance for the firstsemester of community college
and an art degree, I would behaving a whole different
(34:10):
conversation versus.
I've already been working onthis, I've been supporting
myself through this.
I'm clearly committed to this,and can we just get her over the
final hump here, along with allof what you're describing, and
let's talk about how we can helpyou in your life and be
thinking towards how you canprovide for yourself, maybe get
into the family issues and allthese other things?
But I would say that's arelatively small amount of money
(34:33):
for a pretty big benefit forher now and potentially, you
know, for the rest of your life.
You can say I have a collegedegree, you know it's community
college degree, it's an artdegree, but employers care, it's
a college degree.
So I would be pretty willing tohelp or say maybe do a match,
can you put in 500 or we'll putin a thousand, something like
that.
So she has skin in the game.
(34:54):
But especially if she's beencommitted to doing this over the
last two years or four years orwhatever it is, if she's
actually been really committedto it, taking a break could be a
big interruption.
That'd be hard to get back onthe train.
So, yeah, I would love to seeher get that diploma, but again
with all the other caveats thaty'all have offered.
Bob Keys (35:14):
I appreciate that, tim .
I think our young people areour greatest asset in our
churches, and any kind ofdiscouragement can be huge, and
so I agree, I think, one thingher granddaughter is a wonderful
artist.
She's professional at 16.
And my goal is to get her, whenshe comes next month to our
(35:34):
house, to get her with somegraphic artists that have a
career doing art and let herjust enjoy their friendship and
what they do and how they do it,because she doesn't understand
the gifts that God's given herand how she can really use them
for him.
So again, that's one goal Ihave is make sure a couple
graphic artists, a guy and a galyounger, do it for a living,
(35:56):
get her involved in their livesand let them encourage and bless
and help her understand whatgifts God's given her and to use
them wisely for a praisekingdom.
Lynne Hunter (36:05):
By the way, tim college in the near states a
whole lot cheaper than Michigan.
Oh yeah yeah.
Average community college inMichigan 5,000.
For in-state In-state ohinteresting.
6,900 for out-of-state for onesemester.
Tim Hopper (36:20):
Yeah, well, you know , I think you'd want to look at
the cost and try to reallyunderstand what that is
concretely and is that withinthe realm of possibility?
But yeah, I think my biggestthing is trying to keep that
momentum going and getting overthe finish line.
Lynne Hunter (36:31):
Oh yeah, I definitely agree with your
momentum idea.
That does resonate with me.
And how can we encourage her tomove forward?
Bob Keys (36:38):
I would say one other thing.
If she can get with the rightcompany, they probably would pay
for it.
She finds the right opportunity, even within your church.
With the right company, she canmaybe get exactly what she
wants and get paid for it.
There's all kinds ofopportunities and again it's
looking at everything, lookingat all the opportunities,
talking to people that are outthere.
Again, I can't emphasize thisenough in Diakono Ministries,
(37:01):
praying with her, what apowerful tool that is for the
cause of Christ, for the deacon,I keep emphasizing that it is
such an important part of whatwe do to know that God is the
one that supplies all of ourneeds and praying that prayer
for her and knowing that thechurch and his people care is so
(37:22):
important and so valuable.
Tim Hopper (37:24):
Very good.
I think that's a great place towrap up.
Thank you again for your time.
Bob Keys (37:27):
Thank you, Tim.
Always good to see you, brotherLynn, what a blessing you are.
Thank you.
David Nakhla (37:31):
See you folks.
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our websitethereformedeaconorg.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again for another episode of theReformed Deacon Podcast.
This is what I always like ways to verify her story,
and there are ways you can dothis.
Tell her at some point,appropriately, we do not give
cash, our policy is never togive cash and then watch her
response.
Watch her eyes, watch her bodylanguage.
That will tell you immenselywhere she's coming from.
David Nakhla (00:21):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon.
A casual conversation withtopics specifically designed to
help the Reformed Deacon.
A casual conversation withtopics specifically designed to
help local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
Tim Hopper (00:40):
Hello, this is Tim Hopper.
I'm a deacon at Shiloh OrthodoxPresbyterian Church in Raleigh,
north Carolina, and a member ofthe OPC Committee on Diaconal
Ministries.
On today's episode of theReformed Deacon, we're doing
another real-world casesdiscussion with two voices that
you've heard before on thesereal-world cases Mr Lynn Hunter,
who's a deacon at Harvest OPCin Michigan, and Mr Bob Keyes,
(01:03):
who's a deacon at Grace OPC inOhio.
Both of these brothers haveserved their churches for many
years and have a lot of wisdomto share.
Welcome, lynn and Bob.
Thank you Good morning.
Before we dive in, I want to doa quick shout out to a deacon,
joel Vander Kooi from RedeemerOPC in Airdrie, alberta, canada,
for sending in a few of thescenarios we're using today.
(01:26):
Thank you very much, joel, andto our listeners if you've got
ideas, we'd love to hear them.
You can tap the text us underour logo in your podcast app or
send an email to mail atthereformeddeaconorg.
And just to let you know, joelis getting a very nice Reformed
Deacon t-shirt for contributingthese case studies.
(01:47):
Guys, let's jump into our firstscenario.
We have four today.
It's the end of the year and youdiscover you have a surplus in
the church budget.
What do you do with it?
Should it be used to pay offthe mortgage or put it towards
the building fund?
Do we give our missionariesabove what we have committed to
them already?
Do we put it towards thebuilding fund?
Do we give our missionariesabove what we have committed to
them already?
Do we split it among causesthat we collect for?
(02:09):
Do we roll it forward to nextyear's budget?
How should we handle thissurplus situation?
I think actually, before wejump into this, maybe a useful
data point would be just aglimpse of how your deacons are
involved in your church budgetand finances at the general
budget level.
Our deacons are involved inyour church budget and finances
at the general budget level.
Bob Keys (02:26):
Our deacons are primarily the ones that do the
initial budgeting of each year.
We put the budget together.
It takes about two months to doit, maybe even three.
So we start early and we getinput from the congregation and
then, once we put it together,we agree on it as deacons.
Then we move it then to theelders and let them go over it
and make any changes that theysee are necessary.
(02:48):
But we talk to pastors, we talkto so many people about it and
work together.
We have one primary guy thatI'm going to refer to here
because I asked him about it.
He's our finance guy.
He is a certified publicaccountant, and so he does an
excellent job for us certifiedpublic accountant and so he does
an excellent job for us, and sothat's how we do it, and all I
can say is that he's just soimportant to our congregation to
(03:09):
put our budget together.
Lynne Hunter (03:17):
Well, harvest is.
On the other end, we have agroup of trustees.
They take care of all budgetingmatters concerning the church.
The only money they do not haveresponsibility for is the
benevolent fund, and they takecare of the budget.
They would decide what wouldhappen on this rollover and then
it becomes just like Bob'schurch.
Once they have the budget set,they send it to the sessions and
(03:39):
session approves it or makesuggestions of changes approves
it or makes suggestions ofchanges.
In the case of this excess,first question that came to me
is have they paid all theirpresbytery and general assembly
dues?
If it's excess, after that,then I'm going to look at what
Harvest has done, where theyhave split that excess and taken
(04:02):
a given part of it tobenevolent fund and the rest
goes out to missionaries that wesupport within our presbytery.
We have a building fund that ispart of the budget.
If we had a major buildingprogram going on, that might be
something that we'd contributeto, but we put the spreading of
(04:24):
the gospel ahead of buildingbrick and mortar.
Tim Hopper (04:28):
The Harvest, I believe, is the largest
congregation in the OPC and Ithink probably things are going
to potentially be more maybestructured than some of our
churches, so I think that'suseful as just for folks who are
listening, to keep in mind youmight not do things exactly the
same way.
I think we're all actually fromrelatively large congregations,
OPC wise, so take that for whatit is.
Bob Keys (04:50):
Tim, we're not from that big as a harvest, but this
question reminds me of our ownpersonal budgets.
Life's full of changes.
Our lives are full of changes,and so we really need to plan,
even with our own accesses, whatwe're going to do with it, and
we each have so many differentways to go.
We need a new car, we need anew down payment for a house
(05:11):
that we want to purchase, wehave a hot water tank or a roof
that needs to be replaced, wehave a new baby coming, we have
retirement and we have even acollege expenses for our
children.
This is the same as our churchat least.
We have so many differentthings that take need, and they
change each year.
In our cases, they change.
I'll mention just a few thatour church has had in the last
(05:31):
five or 10 years that haveneeded a lot of money put
towards them, and I think we'vealways got to look ahead.
What do we need to continue ourministry, to grow the church and
to grow his people?
And, for instance, we'restarting a new church 30 miles
from our church this coming year.
What's that going to take?
(05:51):
It's going to take money, notonly from the denomination, the
presbytery, but it's also goingto take our money, and so we're
starting to already plan forthat new church to be funded by
our church, and that takes money.
We also need a new flooring.
A year and a half ago and we gota big building, so that was a
huge expense in our buildingfund.
We brought on a third pastor ayear and a half ago and that was
(06:14):
a huge new transition as well.
And if you don't plan for that,you can't do it.
You've got to grow and you'vegot to plan for that major
expense.
You're talking about a hundredplus thousands of dollars to
fund that third pasture and thenadding on to our facilities.
We've added on maybe 12 yearsago and there's even talk about
adding on again and that's not aone year or two year or three
(06:35):
year plan.
That's major.
You don't want to go into hugedebt and so you're talking about
millions for any kind ofsubstantial building expansion
program.
So those are the kind of thingsthat you've got to look in the
future and say these are thekind of things we need to grow
and to be a productive church ofJesus Christ.
What do we need to continuethat growth and that ministry to
(06:57):
people?
And so I agree with Lynn.
Our ministry to people is whatwe've always got to plan for and
always got to look carefullywhat do we need and how can we
plan wisely for the things thatwe need?
And the Lord does provide.
That's the other thing.
We've always had a surplus atGrace the last 10, 15 years, and
the way in which we use thatmoney shows us our love and our
(07:18):
dedication to our Savior.
Tim Hopper (07:20):
Very good answers, guys.
I wouldn't change much in myown situation other than
mentioning something that hasn'tbeen mentioned, which is one
option for folks is just makingadditional contributions to the
OPC Worldwide Outreach Fund,which supports our home missions
, foreign missions and Christianeducation the past with funds,
(07:45):
and that can be a big help there.
But yeah, I think there's not,obviously there's just not a
single answer to this.
It's something that everybody'sgoing to have to consider in
their own situation.
But I think to Bob's point,very wise to be thinking
proactively about this and notjust letting it come and
surprise you.
Bob Keys (07:57):
Can I put in what my finance guy?
He's a certified publicaccountant.
He had a great statement hereand I'd like to read it.
In situations where giving hasexceeded expenses for a
particular year, it is importantto handle that surplus wisely.
As a board of deacons, we mightask one another does the church
already have sufficientreserves in its general fund?
(08:18):
If so, the next question mightbe what long-term capital
projects for our church are onthe horizon.
Are those adequately funded, orshould some of those surpluses
be set aside for other suchprojects?
When it comes to thinking aboutpaying off a down payment on a
mortgage, contemplate thecurrent interest rate the church
is paying, the length of timeremaining on the mortgage and
(08:39):
the amount that would be savedif you pay it off or don't pay
it off, and then process thatbased on other needs that are
important in the future for thechurch.
Tim Hopper (08:49):
Very good.
No, that's a great answer.
Bob Keys (08:51):
That was Andrew's answer.
By the way, he's a wise man.
That's what Deacon's all aboutis having men that are gifted
I'm not gifted in taking care ofall the finances, but boy
Andrew is, and that's just theblessing of the church is to
have men that are good.
Tim Hopper (09:05):
Yeah, I think that's something that always is so
clear in these discussions.
Having a multitude ofcounselors and being able to
have these discussions, I think,helps us make better decisions
here.
Let's move on to scenarionumber two.
This one's a little bit longerof a setup.
Paula seems familiar.
As you talk to her, you arewondering whether she has
visited before today.
She has been sharing with youthat she has a single mom and a
(09:28):
widow living in an extended staylow budget hotel.
Your guess is that she's in herearly forties.
She's approached you after theservice to request help with
rent for a week.
She does not have a car.
She works part-time doingcleaning, but primarily lives on
SSDI, which is Social SecurityDisability, which provides
monthly payments to people withdisabilities and older adults
(09:50):
who have little or no incomeresources.
Paula gets food stamps.
She's missed a couple shiftsthis week and is short on rent
money.
She is pleasant, clean, polite,dressed, neatly and seems
intelligent, though admittedlynot highly educated.
You have offered her some foodfrom the church food pantry, but
she only has a hot plate tocook on and so she can't really
use it.
You have about $20 of cash inyour wallet and there's probably
(10:13):
$50 in cash available at thechurch in the deacon's cabinet.
What are your thoughts?
Lynne Hunter (10:18):
First time she's asked.
We're probably going to help,but it's not going to be with
cash.
It's going to be a checkwritten out to the person that
she pays her rent to or companythat she pays her rent to.
And the reason we're going tohelp is this gives me an
opportunity to continue talkingwith her with a follow-up basis
(10:41):
of how things going, invitingher back to church the next week
, getting to know her a littlemore, getting her under gospel
preaching, maybe on a weeklybasis or twice a Sunday.
But this always gives us anopening to help and to get into
somebody's life.
And then we'll start takingcare of maybe some other issues
(11:03):
budgeting issues down the road.
But let's first get this firstchance and use it wisely to get
into her life.
Bob Keys (11:12):
I like your response.
This is a hard one.
This is a tough situation forevery deacon.
If they're in the diaconatelong enough, they're going to
experience these kind ofdifficult situations.
I think it takes two steps andI'll mention both of them.
The first one is wisdom anddiscernment.
I think this is what is soneeded for every deacon, and
(11:34):
Acts talks about it as well.
Men of wisdom.
The second is diaconal care andstewardship.
That Lynn talked about wisely,and I'm going to talk about each
one of those specifically.
I want to believe Paula.
You want to believe she hasreally wanted a relationship
with the church.
You really want to believe sheis telling you everything
truthfully.
But wisdom and discernment arerequired.
(11:57):
The majority of the time inthese situations like Paula's,
the person is simply attemptingto get the church to give them
cash so they can spend it onwhat they want.
This is where wisdom anddiscernment come in.
First.
I thank God and praise God thatshe's calm and she's talking in
the church.
Praise God, you don't take thatfor lightly.
It's important that you seethat as a great opportunity for
(12:18):
the gospel of Christ.
But I would ask her manyquestions and again, going into
it, you have to realize this isgoing to take time, energy,
stress from one or two or moredeacons, and so you don't go
into this thinking it's just afive or ten minute time.
This takes time, energy and, Iguarantee, stress.
Not easy.
(12:39):
Some of the questions I wouldask.
And you're looking to find outher full story.
If you've got time, take her.
Make sure you're not alone.
I'll talk about that severaltimes.
You're not alone with it.
Where has she attended church inthe past?
I think that's one of the mostimportant questions you can ask
her.
What other relationships hasshe had with the church of Jesus
Christ, true Bible-believingchurches?
Has she had any?
And if she hasn't, thatprobably changes things as well.
(13:02):
How long has she been a widow?
You don't know.
Ask her how long she's been awidow.
How old are her children andhow many children does she have
and why didn't they come withher?
Does she have other family inthe area?
Is she living with anyone otherthan her children?
Interesting question.
I think that's important.
Does she have a boyfriend?
Does she live with anotherwoman?
What else is going on in thathome?
Even in that hotel, it's a home.
(13:22):
How did she learn about yourchurch?
Important question how did sheget to your church today?
Who drove her there?
If you don't know of a hotelclose?
Someone drove her there, andwhere is the hotel that she's
living at now and how long hasshe been there?
I mean, these aren't all thequestions.
These are just some typicalkind of questions I would ask
right off the bat.
In this situation, you must askquestions where you can verify
(13:44):
her truthfulness, and I want tobelieve them.
I told you from the verybeginning I want to believe her
story, but you've got to findout whether she's really
truthful.
So I encourage you to bringanother deacon, if you can, when
you're talking with her, soanother deacon can hear and ask
questions.
Bring your wife along, bringher right there beside you and
(14:04):
let her be a part of thatconversation with this woman.
My rules, and Lynn, you hit onthe first one Never, never, give
cash.
Never, even with your owncongregants.
It's just not wise to give cash.
You're right.
If you're going to giveanything, you're going to give a
check directly to the hotel.
Exactly, lynn, you couldn't bemore right.
No, being alone with this woman.
(14:27):
I can't emphasize that enough.
You're jeopardizing your ownperson and the church.
You're a deacon, so make sureyou have another deacon or your
wife with you at all times orthe congregation around you.
You've got to have all thoseprotections when you do this
kind of work and do not tell herright off the bat that you're
going to help her.
(14:47):
I would try to verify what I'mtalking about sufficiently
before you say anything aboutgiving anything.
And if you do, then give herone to two days rent, not a week
or two or five or 10.
One or two days will get youmore time.
And the other thing always bewilling to give food.
She's got a hot plate.
I'll give her a microwave.
I got a spare microwave.
I'll give her a microwave, butgive her food.
(15:08):
Food stamps aren't sufficientgenerally for someone to live
off, and so food should be yourprimary way to give help.
Ask her to come to your eveningservice.
That is a big one, I mean.
If you've got an eveningservice, that is just the
primary way to get her back in,where you can have more time to
talk to the deacons and you canset up a way in which you can do
it in terms of verifying moreabout what she's doing and get
(15:30):
her more involved in theservices and other women Ways to
verify her story.
This is what I always like.
I like ways to verify her storyand there are ways you can do
this.
If you're really astute, youcan do it.
Tell her at some pointappropriately we do not give
cash.
Our policy is never to givecash and then watch her response
(15:51):
.
Watch her eyes, watch her bodylanguage.
That will tell you immenselywhere she's coming from.
Get good at that.
Look her straight in the eyesand say our policy is we cannot
give you cash, and then justgive it a few seconds and see
how she responds.
Tell her that you can drive herhome she didn't have a car so
you can drive her home with yourwife or another deacon and that
(16:14):
you can meet with the hotelmanager.
The hotel manager is going totell you, but you can certainly
work with her and the hotelmanager to arrange for whatever
it needs if it goes that far.
Most of the time it will not gothat far if she's not telling
the truth, but if she is, you'llget an opportunity to see where
(16:35):
she's living.
Ask her to bring her kids down.
Don't go into her apartment.
Do not go into her apartment.
Have the kids come down andmeet with you and your wife and
by doing that you're going tolearn a tremendous amount.
I'm assuming that she's 45, herkids are going to be grown,
maybe 16, 18, 20, 30.
So, again, having the kids comedown, I think, is another great
(16:55):
, great opportunity to get youinvolved with their family.
I think these are the kind ofthings I would.
And again, I'm not sure thatyou're going to be able to get
her SSI paperwork anddocumentation and other
verifications, food stamps butthat's another approach as well
and I probably wouldn't takethat one.
But it's another way to clearlyverify that she's really in the
kind of need that she's in.
You know, it's just anotheroption you have, but I probably
(17:18):
wouldn't use that, at leastinitially.
But getting to the hotel andseeing the office manager there
will tell you a tremendousamount about the real situation,
if you can get that far.
Lynne Hunter (17:27):
I'll give you one more thing we have at Harvest
because of the metropolitan areathat we live in, we have a
basically it's a clearing housesfor churches.
It's called access and what wedo on any of these cases whether
they come into this churchthey're not church members we
get their driver's licensenumber, last four, their social
(17:51):
security, their phone number anddate of birth and this all goes
to this clearinghouse.
That clearinghouse then has arecord of churches helping.
If they see this person has A,they've gone to church A, church
B and they're at harvest, thatmakes red flag.
But if there's no red flags now, they have a record of hey,
(18:12):
harvest is helping this personwith this amount of money and if
that comes up on their radaragain then they can flag it for
other churches.
The other thing this does is onbigger needs.
They also help with finding newhousing or getting more than
one church involved to pay alarger bill.
(18:33):
We've helped with largerhospital bills through this
group.
So use all your resources.
Don't just think it's just yourchurch that has to foot this or
take care of it all.
There's lots more resources outin the world that we can use to
help on these situations.
Bob Keys (18:50):
I agree with you, len.
We have an organization we workwith in Columbus and they are
really good.
They're certainly Christian,bible-based, and we use them to
help us with more specifics thatwe are not as good at as they
are, and so we volunteer attimes with them and they know us
.
We've had men that have reallyled some of their areas of
(19:13):
ministry and so we work closelywith them on these kind of
things as well, and I agree, ifyou can have someone in your
community to help you walkbeside these people, it's so
important.
I had a couple other things andI didn't talk enough about the
diaconal care and stewardship.
I think this is the othersection that's so important.
This is a gospel ministry and,as I mentioned, it's so
(19:35):
important that we care for thesepeople that come to our
churches that need help.
This is diaconal ministry and Ithink, as the story proves to
be truthful and right, we wantto connect this woman and her
family with other godly womenand children in our church, get
them involved in a Bible studyand bring their children to see
the gospel of Christ acted outin a godly way in our church and
(19:58):
this shows them the gospel thechildren need to see the gospel
of Jesus Christ.
This is so important, and so,if they really are there, we
want them as well.
We want to present the gospelof Jesus Christ to them.
I think one thing that we do notdo well as deacons and I am
learning to do this better andbetter is to pray with and for
these people that come.
(20:18):
Well, all are diaconal ministrypeople.
Whatever we do diaconally, weshould be praying with them and
for God's work in their heartsand their lives.
We should pray for her life,for her heart, and that she'll
come back and be involved andcontinue to receive the love and
care in the community ofbelievers of Jesus Christ, and
we should also share the simplegospel of Christ with her again
and again, in concert with thediaconal ministry that she's
(20:42):
receiving.
I think it's most important ofall.
I mean, if we're not doing this, then we're not really doing
diaconal care and stewardship.
It has to do with her heart andwhat we can do in terms of
ministering to her heart for thecause of Christ.
We can give her all the thingsin the world, but the most
important thing she has are hopeand Christ.
Tim Hopper (21:00):
Great answers, guys.
One follow-up here is we haveoften, in situations like this,
gone straight to the hotel orwherever the person's staying
and just tried to pay, even justshowing up at the desk and just
paying ourselves.
And often you know a budgethotel, they're not going to
complain about somebody doingthat.
We've had things happen likefinding out someone said, oh, I
(21:21):
can't afford my rent this week,and then you find out they've
just been going around tochurches and they're prepaid for
weeks ahead of time throughdoing this kind of thing.
Or a similar situation a womansaying, oh, I need a hotel
because I'm in this shelter, butthe shelter has all these
problems I think she was sayingit had bedbugs and all these
things.
And we spoke to the shelter andfound out this lady was just a
(21:43):
serial liar about things that'sgoing on.
And, bob, you've alluded severaltimes to getting the truthful
story.
But how do we handle thesesituations?
And maybe this needs to be awhole nother real world
discussion podcast.
But how do we handle thesesituations?
If someone is lying, it doesn'tmean that they don't need help.
How do we handle them lying tous?
Bob Keys (22:03):
I think you pray with don't let them get out the door
without prayer.
I think you're going towardsthe heart and we all sin and we
all fall short of the glory ofGod.
But Christ, that's our hope.
Bring them back.
It's never too late to helpsomeone with mercy, ministry,
and so, again, if you findthey're lying, don't just shut
them out.
Pray with them, encourage them,talk about the gospel, what
(22:24):
that means, what that reallymeans in this situation, and
offer more help.
Come back, be a part of thechurch.
We are here, we want to serveyou, we want to show you the
love of Christ.
Come back and let us talk withyou and encourage you and bless
you.
Tim Hopper (22:44):
Very good.
I'll just mention one otherthing before we move on.
I think that what Grand Rapidshas in terms of a church kind of
clearinghouse thing is unusualand not unusual in a bad way,
it's just not very common but agreat thing.
But there is also for those inthe US, the United Way, which is
not a Christian organization atall.
I think all over the US you candial 211 on the phone and get
in touch with the United Way,which they provide information
(23:06):
about community resources thatmay or may not be religious
affiliated and all the caveatsabout maybe, if they are
religious affiliated.
But if someone is saying theycan't afford housing and you're
wanting to find out what are theresources that may be available
outside our church, in yourcommunity, your local United Way
, which you can access through211, is a good place to start
there.
(23:27):
Let's move on to our next case.
This is a short one.
The church is approached by acharity seeking support.
What are the criteria you'regoing to use before supporting a
cause?
Do your deacons have a preparedflow chart type decision
process that you handle on acase-by-case basis?
How do you think through this?
Bob Keys (23:45):
I think the best way to handle it is ahead.
This is something you canprepare for, I think, up ahead
with leadership of the church, Ithink.
Develop a clear church policywith the elders and deacons
concerning how the churchordinarily gives to or doesn't
give to charities.
I think there's three areashere.
(24:05):
There are probably more, butI'll mention three.
Identify clearly charitieswhich the leadership
specifically wants to supportand to the extent they want to
support them.
I think we have severalcharities that we know that we
want to give towards, and so wespecifically set out monies each
year for those to give towards,and so we specifically set out
(24:27):
monies each year for those.
And it's clear and we havedefinite reasons why we're doing
it.
Number two is determine how tohandle charities or giving
members of the church that haverequests for things that they're
doing mission projects orthings like that charities even
outside the church, within andwithout the church.
Get an idea how to handlemembers and their requests.
Be clear Again.
Remember you have congregantsthat can give to this and want
(24:49):
to give to this.
So be wise in how you set yourpolicy and how you can best
serve the church and serve yourmembers in your policy.
And the last one I have is toChristian charities that have
really no relationship with yourchurch.
And this is the final one.
I mean I surely wouldn't wantto give to non-Christian
charities.
I can't see many reasons whywe'd want to do that.
Maybe, but Christian charitiespossibly.
(25:12):
But how do we do that?
And I think again, talk aboutit, work it out with the
leadership and decide early onso that there's no
misunderstandings, no questions.
When you have a request, youknow kind of what answer you
need to be given.
Lynne Hunter (25:30):
Yeah, we do pretty much the same thing.
We have a list of basicallythey're mostly mission work that
we prepare at the beginning ofour fiscal year every year, and
we have a collection schedule.
Some of them are in the generalbudget, but the rest of them
are part of a special collectionschedule that we put out at the
beginning of the year and anyof those congregation is allowed
to contribute to any time ofthe year.
(25:52):
Ones that come through us let'ssay they've sent a letter and
it's gotten to the secretary,who's handed it to me we as a
diaconate will then startvetting them.
What are their Christianprinciples?
What is their belief?
Are they Reformed?
Are they Calvinist?
And we have strained more thanone of them out and said, no,
(26:14):
we're not going to help becausethey just don't line up with
what we do or what we believe asa church.
Those ones that are other ones,it's basically all case by case
, and so then you know, go backto the diaconate and then, if
it's a big enough issue, it'llgo to session.
But more than likely we havealready got done all the
(26:35):
background work before it evengets to a deacon's meeting.
So that you know, one or twodeacons have worked on this,
gotten all the information,presented it at a deacon's
meeting and it either goesforward or it doesn't go forward
.
But basic criteria does theirdoctrine line up with our
doctrine?
Our whole job is to helppromote the gospel.
Tim Hopper (26:56):
Only in Grand Rapids do you have the privilege of
asking if the charities areCalvinist, though.
Lynne Hunter (27:03):
Okay, so you can look at it in a different way.
You look at their statement offaith and say is that statement
of faith lining up with thestatement of faith of any OPC
church?
Yes, basically an OPC church,whether it's in Ohio or
Pennsylvania or Canada, ourstatements of faith are all the
(27:25):
same.
So is this charity's statementof faith lining up with what we
believe?
So okay, you can take theCalvinist part out and say does
the statement of faith line upwith what we believe?
Tim Hopper (27:44):
these quote Christian ministries,
evangelical ministries that arebelieving that their ultimate
purpose is seeing people to cometo know the Savior and not.
We're helping you find your ownway, your own path, which is,
you know, we have a lot of veryliberal churches here that have
various kinds of ministries thatwe would be less likely to
support.
Bob Keys (27:59):
I think it's important .
Our deacons always see itimportant to talk with the
elders if we have any question.
I think you can get into a lotof trouble if you really just
move ahead as deacon board toapprove things.
So we normally, if it's notwithin the OPC charity type
stuff, we generally arecontacting our elders and
letting them weigh in as well onwhat we think.
(28:19):
So I think that's reallyimportant and again, I think we
should also encourage members tosupport well-run,
Bible-believing Christiancharities outside our
congregation after they givetheir tithes and offerings to
the church.
This is what God wants as well.
He wants us all to serve thechurch, the greater church, by
ministering to other needs thechurch may not want to get
(28:41):
involved with, but need to behandled and used to see the
gospel go forward in ourcommunities and in the United
States and the world.
So again, that's where a lot ofChristians can get involved
with and be a blessing to othersand blessing to themselves by
serving the Lord this way.
Tim Hopper (28:57):
Let's move on to our last scenario.
Kristen, a member of yourchurch, was recently sharing
with you that she has beendenied tuition assistance for
her final semester of communitycollege, where she is an art
major.
She is estranged from herparents and supports herself
with a part-time job as adrugstore cashier.
Kristen doesn't have the moneyto cover tuition and asks that
the deacons could help her justthis once.
What should we do?
Bob Keys (29:18):
I believe that your primary job in this particular
scenario is to help Kirsten withher life planning.
Getting a degree from acommunity college is a long way
from getting her prepared andinto a career job time job in an
area out in art or graphic artsor blog design or all kinds of
(29:42):
different things she could dowith art, which is a wonderful
area, or even apprenticeship,where she can put into practice
what she's already learned andtest to see if this area is
really her passion or not.
Take six or 12 months off, payyour debts off and get
experience in the area of yourinterest.
I mean, there's all kinds ofoptions.
Again, what you're going to bedoing is just encouraging her to
(30:02):
think.
Another option is to reduce hercredit hours at the college and
get a full-time job in the areaof her interest maybe not
cashier, but an area of herinterest and finish in a year or
18 months, rather than in thenext three to six months.
Again, delaying this stuff isn'tbad.
It might be really, really goodfor her.
And rather than asking formoney, simply give her wisdom,
(30:26):
at least initially, of whatoptions she might have other
than asking for money.
And again, the number one thingI would do is pray with her
again.
What a blessing to be able topray with this young woman
starting her life, gettingeducation and jobs, and pray
that God would provide for herneeds in these tangible ways of
delaying and doing the rightthings.
So those are some things Iwould think about doing.
And get other people involved.
There's probably other peoplethat are really able and capable
(30:48):
of life planning wisdom, and sodon't be the only one there.
Get another woman or anotherperson qualified in the area to
talk with her and to encourageher and to walk side by side
with her down this path and helpher to find a job.
Help her to find the right jobthat really could be
encouragement to her and reallya platform for her long-term
(31:08):
employment.
Lynne Hunter (31:09):
I would agree with Bob Paying tuition.
Although it's a nice, it's nota must and there are other ways
that this could be accomplished.
This is also a place where youprobably could reach out into
your congregation and find othereducators that could help
counsel this young lady.
Maybe it is taking a whole yearoff, maybe it is just cutting
(31:33):
down the number of credit hoursso that you can afford this
semester and stretching the timeout a little bit.
I really like Bob's suggestionof hey, find a job in the area
you're working with and try itout, take an internship for a
year.
So yeah, it's not the answershe's going to want to hear, but
it's probably the answer she'sgoing to need to hear.
But there's one other thing italso gives you the time and the
(31:57):
ability to work with her, notjust once.
You can start building acontinuing relationship and
finding out why she's estrangedfrom her parents, finding out
what else can we help with,where else can we help, and
maybe it's a matter of gettingher involved in the church so
that she can see a biggerpicture than just her life at
(32:19):
this point in time.
Bob Keys (32:20):
Lynn, I really appreciate your point about her
family.
That's the biggest concern Ihad.
It wasn't about her job and allthis stuff, it was about her
family.
Now again, there are reasonswhy she may be estranged.
There may be reasons I canmention 10 different reasons why
she may be estranged and it maynot ever be a possibility that
she ever develops a relationshipwith them.
But if at all possible, thisyoung woman needs to be able to
(32:44):
rebind this relationship withher family, if at all possible.
For me, that's even moreimportant than anything else.
This hurts to hear.
Is there someone in the church,another woman that can help her
do this?
Can someone come from the otherside and bring the family back
to her?
I don't know, I mean, but thisis the thing that concerns me
the most of all.
This situation is herestrangement with her family,
which is the most importantthing for her, I believe, right
(33:05):
now.
Tim Hopper (33:06):
I'm going to offer a little bit of a different
perspective based on two detailshere.
And I think y'all areabsolutely right that this is a
great opportunity to be jumpingin and trying to help this young
woman and just thinking abouther life and career and things.
But I think two aspects of thisone is this is community
college and two is that, thisbeing her last semester, I just
(33:28):
looked up here in North Carolinaa semester of community
colleges for in-state is betweena thousand and $2,000.
So we're talking about arelatively small amount of money
and that small amount of moneyis getting her yes to an art
degree from community college,which maybe isn't the most
valuable thing in life, but it'sgoing to put her in a position
where for the rest of her lifeshe can say I have an
(33:49):
associate's degree versus I onlyhave a high school degree,
which for better or worse, it isgoing to be meaningful in
employers and it's going to bemeaningful in her own life in
saying, oh, I completed andaccomplished something.
So you know, I think if thiswas saying, oh, I didn't get
assistance for the firstsemester of community college
and an art degree, I would behaving a whole different
(34:10):
conversation versus.
I've already been working onthis, I've been supporting
myself through this.
I'm clearly committed to this,and can we just get her over the
final hump here, along with allof what you're describing, and
let's talk about how we can helpyou in your life and be
thinking towards how you canprovide for yourself, maybe get
into the family issues and allthese other things?
But I would say that's arelatively small amount of money
(34:33):
for a pretty big benefit forher now and potentially, you
know, for the rest of your life.
You can say I have a collegedegree, you know it's community
college degree, it's an artdegree, but employers care, it's
a college degree.
So I would be pretty willing tohelp or say maybe do a match,
can you put in 500 or we'll putin a thousand, something like
that.
So she has skin in the game.
(34:54):
But especially if she's beencommitted to doing this over the
last two years or four years orwhatever it is, if she's
actually been really committedto it, taking a break could be a
big interruption.
That'd be hard to get back onthe train.
So, yeah, I would love to seeher get that diploma, but again
with all the other caveats thaty'all have offered.
Bob Keys (35:14):
I appreciate that, tim .
I think our young people areour greatest asset in our
churches, and any kind ofdiscouragement can be huge, and
so I agree, I think, one thingher granddaughter is a wonderful
artist.
She's professional at 16.
And my goal is to get her, whenshe comes next month to our
(35:34):
house, to get her with somegraphic artists that have a
career doing art and let herjust enjoy their friendship and
what they do and how they do it,because she doesn't understand
the gifts that God's given herand how she can really use them
for him.
So again, that's one goal Ihave is make sure a couple
graphic artists, a guy and a galyounger, do it for a living,
(35:56):
get her involved in their livesand let them encourage and bless
and help her understand whatgifts God's given her and to use
them wisely for a praisekingdom.
Lynne Hunter (36:05):
By the way, tim college in the near states a
whole lot cheaper than Michigan.
Oh yeah yeah.
Average community college inMichigan 5,000.
For in-state In-state ohinteresting.
6,900 for out-of-state for onesemester.
Tim Hopper (36:20):
Yeah, well, you know , I think you'd want to look at
the cost and try to reallyunderstand what that is
concretely and is that withinthe realm of possibility?
But yeah, I think my biggestthing is trying to keep that
momentum going and getting overthe finish line.
Lynne Hunter (36:31):
Oh yeah, I definitely agree with your
momentum idea.
That does resonate with me.
And how can we encourage her tomove forward?
Bob Keys (36:38):
I would say one other thing.
If she can get with the rightcompany, they probably would pay
for it.
She finds the right opportunity, even within your church.
With the right company, she canmaybe get exactly what she
wants and get paid for it.
There's all kinds ofopportunities and again it's
looking at everything, lookingat all the opportunities,
talking to people that are outthere.
Again, I can't emphasize thisenough in Diakono Ministries,
(37:01):
praying with her, what apowerful tool that is for the
cause of Christ, for the deacon,I keep emphasizing that it is
such an important part of whatwe do to know that God is the
one that supplies all of ourneeds and praying that prayer
for her and knowing that thechurch and his people care is so
(37:22):
important and so valuable.
Tim Hopper (37:24):
Very good.
I think that's a great place towrap up.
Thank you again for your time.
Bob Keys (37:27):
Thank you, Tim.
Always good to see you, brotherLynn, what a blessing you are.
Thank you.
David Nakhla (37:31):
See you folks.
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our websitethereformedeaconorg.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again for another episode of theReformed Deacon Podcast.
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