October 1, 2025 • 45 mins
In this episode, host Chris Cashen (pastor at Trinity OPC, Lanham, MD) is joined by pastor John Shaw and deacon Bob Keys from Grace OPC in Columbus, Ohio for a conversation on the financial needs of the church and the importance of encouraging generosity. Drawing from the example of the widow’s mite in Luke 21, they reflect on how this passage shapes our understanding of giving, particularly in the context of diaconal ministry.
Much of the discussion centers on the application of the passage as it relates to the work of the deacon, and how the generosity of Jesus Christ should move our hearts toward love and sacrificial giving within the church. Together, they explore the deacon’s role in fostering a culture of mercy ministry and faithful giving.
Listen in as Chris, John, and Bob offer gospel-centered insights on selfless generosity, financial stewardship and the church’s call to care for those in need.
Referenced in this episode:
Scripture
· Luke 21:1–4
· Psalm 110:1
· Acts 6
· 2 Corinthians 9:6–8, 15
· 2 Corinthians 8:9
· 1 Timothy 5:8
· Philippians 4:11–12
· Philippians 2:1–8
· John Calvin— Institutes’ section on prayer
You can find all of our episodes at thereformeddeacon.org. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for giveaways and more information. Find other resources on OPCCDM.org. Make sure to send us some feedback on your podcast player or ask a diaconal question by going to OPCCDM.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bob Keys (00:00):
You know you can squeeze and you can push and you
can do all kinds of things toget money, but that's not what
this is about.
It's about this woman's heartand how God's changed it.
David Nakhla (00:09):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
Chris Cashen (00:28):
Welcome to another episode of the Reformed Deacon
Podcast.
My name is Chris Cashen and Iserve as pastor of Trinity
Reformed OPC just outside ofWashington DC in Lanham,
maryland, and I also have theprivilege of serving on the
OPC's Committee for DiaconalMinistries.
Today with me is Pastor JohnShaw and Deacon Bob Keyes, both
(00:48):
from Grace OPC in Columbus, ohio, and I believe both have been
guests on the Reformed Deaconpodcast before.
But let me introduce these goodbrothers as we begin.
Well, first, pastor Shaw,serving at Grace OPC.
Raised as a covenant child inthe OPC, served as a deacon and
an elder before going toseminary and then served seven
(01:08):
years as a church planter andpastor and mission OPC at St
Paul, minnesota, and youprobably know him best as the
general secretary of our homemissions committee.
He served there for 11 yearsand now has been at Grace
Columbus for two years as pastor.
Welcome, john, really glad tohave you this morning.
John Shaw (01:26):
Thanks, Chris, very happy to be with you guys.
Chris Cashen (01:29):
And Bob.
Bob, you've been in Columbusfor some time a few years at
least, I guess since 1979 tohelp start the congregation
there at Columbus, and beenliving there for the last 46
years and serving and attendingthat church the deacon for over
40 years that's amazing and hasserved for a quarter of a
(01:49):
century in the PresbyteryDiaconal Committee there in the
Presbytery of Ohio and servedseveral terms on the CDM.
You're married to Kathy, twochildren and seven grandchildren
and it's just a joy to have youback on the podcast, bob
Welcome.
Bob Keys (02:05):
I'm blessed and I'm so glad to be here with you today.
Thank you.
Chris Cashen (02:09):
Well, brothers, thank you for taking time to be
with us.
Today we're going to bediscussing giving and giving in
the church and very specificallyfinancial giving.
We know that the gospel is freebut it takes dollars to carry
it around and people havematerial needs within the church
and at times and in particularcircumstances the church is
(02:30):
called to address those needsand certainly deacons are
involved in that ministry.
They're involved in this topic.
Our book of church orderspecifically provides that the
board it's referring to, theboard of deacons shall oversee
the ministry of mercy in thechurch and here's the important
part shall collect and dispersefunds for the relief of the
(02:53):
needy.
This was probably based uponthe first group of what we might
refer to as New Testamentdeacons who were charged with
distributing food for the widows.
That's from Acts, chapter 6.
Now, if they were to distributefood, we can imagine that they
were also called to collect thefood or funds for the purchase
(03:13):
of the food.
So they likely began theirministry by encouraging others
to give.
In this episode we want toconsider that kind of giving,
that kind of encouragement inthe deacon's role in doing so,
so that there will be thiscollection of funds which then
leads to distribution.
From time to time on the podcast, we pick up a short portion of
(03:36):
Scripture to see how it mighthelp us think through a
particular topic, and that'swhat we intend to do this
morning.
A particular topic, and that'swhat we intend to do this
morning.
We intend to open up aparticular passage and consider
it theologically, first,obviously, to strengthen a
deacon's understanding andpurpose for office, and then
we're going to invite ourbrothers here to opine on the
(03:57):
application of that passage.
That's really what we're tryingto do practically apply these
particular doctrines.
That's really what we're tryingto do practically apply these
particular doctrines.
Today we're going to be lookingat Luke, chapter 21,
specifically verses 1 through 4.
And you might know of thispassage as the widow's might,
but most of our discussion isgoing to be focused upon the
application of this passage asit relates to the work of the
(04:19):
deacon.
So let me just give us a littlebit of context as we get to
that passage.
Jesus was teaching in the temple, he's preaching the gospel, and
now he's attacked really by thechief priests, the scribes and
the religious leaders of the day.
He's peppered with questionsconcerning his authority, his
identity, really.
And that brings us to hisquestion to those who've been
(04:44):
questioning him about Psalm 110.
The Lord said to my Lord, sitat my right hand until I make
your enemies your footstool.
And he asked that question howis it that David calls him Lord,
who is his son?
And so he's bringing thatquestion of his identity right
to their faces?
And then he begins this In thehearing of all the people.
(05:06):
He said to his disciples Bewareof the scribes who like to walk
around in long robes and lovegreetings in the marketplaces,
in the best seats, in thesynagogues, in the places of
honor at feasts, who devourwidows' houses and, for a
pretense, make long prayers.
They will receive the greatercondemnation.
That's really important for usto understand that.
(05:26):
That's kind of the introductionto what we have next and that
which we want to focus on.
It's the scribes, the religiousleaders, who are devouring
widows' houses in that day.
Here's our text this morninglet's give attention to God's
Word.
Jesus looked up and saw therich putting their gifts into
(05:46):
the offering box and he saw apoor widow put in two small
copper coins and he said truly,I tell you, this poor widow has
put in more than all of them,for they all contributed out of
their abundance, but she, out ofher poverty, put in all she had
to live on.
(06:06):
Amen, hey John, would you prayfor us?
John Shaw (06:09):
I am happy to.
Let's pray, lord.
God, we're thankful for yourword and thankful for your
spirit, thankful that, as weread the scriptures, we know
that you are giving us eternaltruth that's for our good, to
strengthen us in faith andobedience.
And we're thankful, lord, inparticular, for the fact that we
can come to you in the name ofJesus and be reminded of your
(06:32):
generosity toward us, the loveof our Savior, and that, as we
reflect on the gospel, you workin us thanksgiving and joy that
overflows in service and giving.
We pray, lord, that you wouldstrengthen us in that.
We know our heart is not alwaysbent toward generosity, but
(06:54):
that you can re-bend and directour hearts to serve you and to
serve others.
And so we pray, lord, thatyou'd even encourage us in that,
as we consider your word today,we pray these things in the
great name of Jesus.
Amen.
Chris Cashen (07:05):
Amen, thank you.
Well, brothers, before we openup this passage specifically, I
just want to kind of set thetable.
I suppose I would like to knowhow important is giving,
financial giving to the church,whether it be for mercy ministry
or general ministry of the Wordof God.
I suppose we should start there.
Why should our deacons beinterested in the topic of
(07:29):
giving?
John Shaw (07:30):
Well, I think first of all we should be interested
because God's interested.
We'll talk about this more, butit's even just reflecting on
this and preparing is remindedhow often the Bible instructs us
in generosity and reminds us ofthe generosity of God and of
Jesus toward us.
So I think if we understand thegospel then generous giving
(07:52):
should be important and in factit's at the very heart of the
gospel.
So that's part of how Godstraightens, bends our hearts
more according to his will is towork generosity in us.
So it's kind of at the veryheart of ministry as a whole and
uniquely for deacons.
I maybe leave that for Bob totalk about a little bit.
Bob Keys (08:10):
I think that by nature we're very, very selfish people
, but selflessness is part ofthe Christian heart and
Christian life.
And giving, not justfinancially I know financial
giving is important but givingof our time, our energy, our
gifts, our possessions andwealth and everything else that
we have and are, are signs of atrue changed heart by the work
(08:34):
of the Holy Spirit.
Man looks on the outward, butGod looks at the heart, and I
think all this is about theheart.
All I'm going to be talkingabout is the heart.
It's about our hearts and it'sabout what God's doing in them
and through us and by us, and,again, the joy that that brings
when we see others blessed bythe gospel and by the meager
givings that we give.
It's not our gifts, it's thestewardship that God's given to
(08:57):
us, everything that joy that wereceive as we see God's
blessings in this church.
Chris Cashen (09:05):
Oh man, it's real.
Well, brothers, those areencouraging answers and I think
what you've just done is givenme the green light to go ahead
and dig into this passage.
So thank you.
This passage gives us a littleglimpse into one aspect of the
Old Testament temple worship.
We know that the priests, theLevites, were provided for in
(09:25):
the sacrificial offerings,whether that was unleavened
bread or meat set apart for them.
So they were provided for atleast in part.
These gifts that Jesus observesbeing placed into the offering
box, presumably financial gifts,and we know that for a fact
that widow places two coins, twocopper coins, into the box so
(09:49):
they're not used, we don't thinkto support those who labored in
the temple.
So what were these gifts for,if we can know that?
John Shaw (09:58):
Yeah, I appreciated the question, Chris, because I
don't know that this text tellsus what they're for.
And yet it was amazing to thinkabout the whole of the New
Testament and how muchinstruction there is about
giving.
I think if we're reading thescriptures rightly, we're
reading this passage in thecontext of the rest of the Bible
, but I think especially the NewTestament, and it was kind of
(10:21):
amazing to think about how oftenthe New Testament talks about
giving.
So, thinking about Jesus, firstof all, the Sermon on the Mount
, Jesus regularly with thePharisees and scribes, Jesus in
his parables, acts 2 through 6,james all over Paul, how much is
(10:42):
about giving and how the givingis almost always about caring
for those in need.
And so, like Acts 2 has alwaysbeen amazing to me, both because
it gives us kind of thestructure of what the church
should care about, so whatthey're committed to, teaching
and sacraments and fellowshipand prayer.
And yet after that the rest ofthe text talks about how they
(11:04):
gave so that no one had need,and I think it's in that context
that we should be reading Luke21.
This is about caring for peoplein need.
It's what makes it so shocking,because someone who, just in
the little description we get ofher is, throughout scripture
described as needy is giving tothose in need.
It's a remarkable text in thatway, and we'll get to more of
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this.
But how much that just flowsout of the gospel that Jesus
came to care not for those whoare healthy but for those who
are sick, which of course, firstof all has gospel import.
He's coming for sinners, notthe righteous, as he says in
that text Mark 2, 17.
But then how we have anopportunity to live out the
gospel and caring for those whoare needy.
(11:49):
I think that's the context ofhow we have to read this text
and, again, I think it's whatmakes it so shocking is, in
these four verses, to see aneedy person who's probably poor
, who is poor, caring for otherpeople who are needy and poor.
It's remarkable.
Chris Cashen (12:07):
It is.
I appreciate your going toother texts to help us kind of.
I'm not sure we're speculating,but maybe trying to understand
how these funds might have beenused.
So I appreciate that.
Bob Keys (12:18):
You started the conversation in the early church
, J hn in Acts, chapter 2.
You didn't say enough aboutchapter 4 and chapter 6, but
they all flow together in theearly church and how the early
church truly cared, loved andministered the gospel of Christ
to the world, to the church andthen the world.
(12:39):
I have to mention a guy named,one of my favorites, barnabas.
Barnabas is the real guy inActs, chapter 4.
Ananias and Sapphira reallyweren't.
They spent 10 times more timeon them, but Barnabas was the
guy.
Barnabas was called the son ofencouragement and what did he do
?
What did Joseph Barnabas do?
Wore off his, prospered him andhe sold his stuff and laid it
(13:01):
before the apostles' feet sothat people would not be in need
.
And there was no need.
The scriptures are clear herethat there was no one that had
need in the church because ofthis love and gracious giving by
people like Barnabas.
And then what did Barnabas dolater on?
He was one of the greatestevangelists, along with Paul, of
all time.
I think he should have been adeacon, but maybe he was a
deacon, I don't know.
But one sentence, chapter 4,and this guy out of the blue
(13:26):
that loved the Lord, JesusChrist was filled with spirit,
gave of what he had that peoplewould not have need.
There's the example Before thedeacons were even installed,
stephen Philip and all the otherfive, before they were
installed, it was Barnabas whoshowed the church how to love,
how to give and how to care forthose in need.
(13:47):
And again, I love Barnabas, sonof encouragement, and I'll talk
a lot about encouragement here,because I think that's what the
deacons do.
We encourage by our love forChrist, mercy ministry and we
show the church I'll talk a lotabout this later, but again,
this is what we do.
This is what the deacons, theirblood, is all about.
They're about showing andfacilitating the mercy ministry,
(14:11):
just as Barnabas did, the sonof encouragement for the gospel
of Christ.
Chris Cashen (14:16):
Very good.
Just an aside, bob is it thedeacons' practice at Grace to
take up a separate offering formercy ministries?
Bob Keys (14:25):
We always have.
I think it's so important thatthe diaconal offerings be
separate from the regular tithesand offerings.
I think there's lots of reasonsfor that, Chris.
I think that one we need topresent to the church what the
deacon does and what mercyministry is, and we have a lot
of new visitors in our church.
We have a lot of new members inour church that really don't
(14:46):
know really what deacons do.
A lot of them are not fromReformed and Presbyterian
churches and the deacon in otherchurches, if they have deacons,
they don't do what we do, andso it's really important that
they begin to see that this is aseparate offering for mercy
ministry for the cause of Christand for the gospel of Christ to
be proclaimed not only withinthe church but outside the
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church, and that the world mightknow and see the love and the
mercy of our Savior Jesus Christ, and his self-sacrificing for
us is an example for us to dothe same thing for others.
May the Lord grant the churchthat same idea that we serve and
minister by these offerings tothe church and to the world, the
(15:28):
gospel of Christ.
And so, yes, it's veryimportant we need to have
separate offerings where wecommunicate what we do, how we
do it and confidentially bevarious things we can speak of
that tell of how we're using thefunds to bless the body of
Christ and to show the gospel tonon-believers.
Chris Cashen (15:47):
Yeah, thank you.
So back to the passage, John.
It seems that some may walkaway from this passage with the
thought that Jesus really careslittle for giving by the wealthy
.
He doesn't focus on those folksat all.
(16:07):
Is that the case?
John Shaw (16:09):
It's not the case, and I really appreciated that
you included the couple ofverses from the end of chapter
20 and described some of thecontext.
You know the encouragement isto give from the heart.
We'll get to that a little bit,but even the warning about the
scribes, I mean, these arepeople of significance, in
(16:30):
position and power and even inwealth, and they give for all
the wrong reasons, if we thinkabout how the Gospels describe
them.
They don't give in secret, theygive in public, so that people
will recognize them.
They wear, as it said, longrobes and do all these things to
be noticed, offer long prayers,and there's a sense in which
(16:50):
what Jesus is doing in the text,like he does so often, is
present.
Two types of people in contrast,and so this poor widow becomes
the example, even because of hercircumstance, of someone who
gives a generosity that'ssurprising and almost shocking,
because there's a sense in whichwe could say she's the one in
need.
Why would she give?
(17:11):
And yet she gives and shebecomes an encouragement.
Uh, holy Spirit, generated,prod, if you will, to all of us,
whether we have abundance ornot, to give from the heart out
of thanksgiving and joy.
So I was thinking ofPhilippians 4, where Paul says
(17:33):
this kind of surprising thingthat he's content whether in
plenty or in want.
And I think sometimes we readthat and say, well, of course
he's content when there's plentyin want.
And I think sometimes we readthat and say, well, of course
he's content when there's plentybecause it's easy to be content
then.
But actually we know as we growolder that it's just as hard to
be content in plenty as it isin want.
But generosity flows fromcontentment.
(17:53):
So that's maybe a roundaboutway to get at it to say he's
concerned about all of us.
He's concerned about all of us,wealthy or poor.
That, by the grace of God, wehave fostered in our hearts the
kind of thankfulness thatoverflows in generosity.
We see that so clearly in thispoor widow.
Bob Keys (18:21):
So yeah, he cares about all of us poor or rich,
that we would respond to thegospel with thankfulness and
generosity.
I got to follow along with thatwith Philippians 2.
You talked about Philippians 4,but I go to Philippians 2 first
.
Look at Christ.
Look at Christ.
Look at our Savior.
Let me read just a little bit ofPhilippians 2, which again is
one of my favorite passages.
Let me read the whole thing.
If there's any encouragement inChrist, any comfort from love,
(18:42):
any participation in the Spirit,any affection and sympathy,
complete my joy by being of thesame mind, having the same love,
being in full accord and of onemind, Do nothing from
self-ambition or conceit, but inhumility, count others more
significant than yourselves.
Let each of you look not onlyfor his own interests but also
(19:06):
for the interests of others.
Selflessness, giving.
And again I have to make onemore comment.
I think there is a gift of thespirit of giving in Scripture
that talks about giving, peoplebeing able to give out of their
abundance, and that's a giftfrom the Spirit as well, and
that's good.
So I don't, as John said, it'snot about the amount, it's about
(19:27):
the heart and about lovingothers in generosity.
Chris Cashen (19:30):
Well, brothers, that has caused me to think
about this a bit.
Do you think that there is someparallel between this widow,
this poor widow who gives out ofher poverty, and Jesus Christ,
who comes in poverty so to speak, I think, absolutely.
John Shaw (19:53):
You know, I think you're hoping eventually to get
us to 2 Corinthians 9 and theconnection I mean.
I think clearly all of this isrooted in the gospel, where
Jesus isn't just an example tobe imitated though he is but
that by his work in his death,resurrection and ascension, his
spirit being sent to us, ourhearts are changed, our
(20:17):
perspective reformed and remadeso that we, like that
Philippians 2 text says, we havehis mind among us.
Our minds and hearts arechanged and bent toward Jesus,
and that's where I think all ofthis is kind of taking us.
The whole bent of scripture isthat God has a heart for the
nations there's evangelism and aheart for the poor and
(20:40):
oppressed there's generosity.
He displays it in Jesus.
Nations, there's evangelism ina heart for the poor and
oppressed, there's generosity.
He displays it in Jesus, andthen, as he regenerates us, he
makes us like Jesus so yeah, Ithink she's.
Bob Keys (20:57):
She's pointing us toward Jesus and what he does on
the cross.
Very good, I think back onmatthew 5, poverty.
Matthew 5 Jesus talks about thepoor in spirit, for theirs is
the kingdom of God.
Again, the difference is thework of the Holy Spirit in the
heart of the believer.
It's all about the HolySpirit's work.
You know you can squeeze andyou can push and you can do all
kinds of things to get money,but that's not what this is
about.
It's about this woman's heartand how God's changed it.
Chris Cashen (21:24):
So, Bob, if I were to point you to Abram giving a
tenth of everything toMelchizedek and other passages
in Scripture which speak of atenth as a standard for giving,
or at least a model.
It appears that the widow'sgifts was much less than that,
and yet Jesus praises her.
How can that be?
Bob Keys (21:44):
Well, that was an interesting question and I'm
still contemplating.
Let me tell you what I thinkJesus says in the passage that
she gave all that she had tolive on.
I don't know what percentagethat was or what tie that
equates to, but I do know thatJesus was looking at her heart.
Again, all I can say I keeptalking about the heart and not
(22:06):
to a percentage or a dollaramount.
God owns the cattle on athousand hills.
He can supply anything.
He doesn't need our money.
He needs our heart.
He needs our hearts.
Man looks on the outward, butGod looks on the heart.
Man looks on the outward, butGod looks on the heart.
Chris Cashen (22:21):
Well, there are certainly other passages in
Scripture that deal with giving,and 2 Corinthians 9, verse 5
reads this way.
So I thought it necessary tourge the brothers to go on ahead
to you arrange in advance forthe gift you promised.
So Paul's already lookingforward to this giving that has
(22:45):
been promised to him.
He's coming to get it.
And then we read this the pointis this whoever sows sparingly
will also reap sparingly, andwhoever sows bountifully will
also reap bountifully.
Each one must give as he'sdecided in his heart.
We've heard that word manytimes already today, Not
reluctantly or under compulsion,for God loves a cheerful giver.
So, John, you've alreadyalluded to this, but could you
(23:07):
open that up just a bit more?
How does this passage in 2Corinthians work with the
passage of the widow's mite thatwe're considering today?
John Shaw (23:15):
Yeah, there's a lot of interesting things just in
those couple verses.
I'm interested in verse 6 thatit really talks about the reward
for giving, which I think we'rea little bit afraid to talk
about sometimes because we wantit to be sacrificial.
We forget that there's actuallya reward and that God promises
that.
See you, sow bountifully, reapbountifully.
(23:37):
I think it's interesting aswell that it says the person who
gives that he or she hasdecided not in his mind but in
his heart.
It's a really interesting turnof phrase that Paul does.
We know the heart in Scripturekind of is the rudder that
guides our words and our actions.
(23:58):
So it's in some sense sayinghis whole life is bent toward
generosity and therefore hedoesn't give reluctantly, he
gives cheerfully.
To get at how this connects tothe widow.
I think what else is interestingin 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 as a
whole is that it begins and endswith the gospel.
(24:19):
So it begins with Jesus, whowas willing to become poor so
that you could become rich,taking us to the cross, and it
ends chapter nine does, withPaul rejoicing in, I think, in
Christ, this inexpressible gift,which isn't just salvation
(24:41):
through the cross but it'sChrist as a whole.
And so I think what Paul'sdoing is saying this heart
that's been captured by God andchanged by God is so captured
with the beauty of Jesus thatit's now bent toward
thanksgiving, toward joy, towardgenerosity.
(25:02):
And isn't that what we see inthe widow, that she one
recognizes that even in herpoverty the Lord has dealt
graciously with her.
So she's rejoicing and thankfuleven in her poverty, and she
sees that other people's needmight be greater than hers.
That only makes sense in lightof the gospel and what Christ
(25:25):
has done for us.
And so I think all that's kindof underneath Luke 21.
And, like you suggested earlier, Chris, that she is in some
sense pointing us toward Jesus.
Very clearly, the gospel is atthe heart of this, toward Jesus.
Very clearly, the gospel is atthe heart of this.
(25:45):
And so if we're going to growin generosity and our churches
are our primary focus, doesn'tchange.
We give them Jesus and thegospel over and over again and
remind them of thisinexpressible gift that is ours
in Jesus, and the only naturalresponse is thanksgiving, joy
and generosity.
Chris Cashen (26:03):
Good.
Thank you Well, bob.
I don't want to throw darts andarrows at the widow, but in 1
Timothy 5, paul tells Timothy ifanyone does not provide for his
relatives, and especially forthe members of his household,
he's denied.
The faith is worse than anunbeliever.
As Jesus observes this widow,he sees that she puts in all she
(26:24):
had to live on.
Now Luke doesn't tell usanything more other than she
gave out of her poverty.
But how can we really read thispassage of the widow's might
and Jesus prays for heralongside Paul's admonishment to
Timothy about denying the faith?
Bob Keys (26:42):
Another great question .
I enjoyed thinking about thisone and in 1 Timothy 5, we ask
the question who is Paul talkingabout in the passage?
I mean, we always want to askourselves these kind of
questions when we read Scripture.
If anyone I'm going to use theword anyone, that's what Paul
uses if anyone, who is thisanyone?
Why is this person notproviding for his family is the
(27:04):
real bottom line question, Ibelieve in the passage.
I look at it.
Could it be sin?
I think it is sin.
Could it be this?
Anyone is lazy, greedy,self-indulgent, a drunken,
addict or worse.
What kind of heart does thisanyone have in this 1 Timothy
passage?
What relationship do they havewith Christ is what we always
(27:28):
ask as a deacon.
Where are they at?
What motivates them?
And I have to believe that Paulis looking at someone that
needs Jesus Christ, and that'swhat he basically says at the
end in terms of his finalunderstanding of who this person
is.
This is not the widow in ourLuke passage.
Her heart is this love, joy,peace, patience, kindness,
(27:50):
goodness, faithfulness,gentleness and self-control.
That's what she is.
The Holy Spirit's work in herheart and her life.
It's the gospel that's changedher and this is not the person
of 1 Timothy 5.
It's directly opposite and thisis not the person of 1 Timothy
5.
It's directly opposite and sothis is the way to look at it.
It's not at all the same heart.
It's two different hearts, andthe other heart needs to see the
(28:12):
gospel that the widow has andrepent and turn to the Lord,
Jesus Christ, and be saved andthen develop a heart of the
widow.
Chris Cashen (28:21):
That's very helpful.
Bob Brothers, we've beenpractical, I think, but I want
to even get more practical atthis point and I think we're
agreed and help me if I got thiswrong, but I think we're agreed
that the diaconate should beinvolved in encouraging members
of the congregation to give.
So, john, in speaking withmembers about giving, is it
(28:43):
possible to cross the line,meaning as a deacon or an elder
encourages members to give, bereceived not as encouragement
but as an onerous command, suchthat the members feel pressured
(29:10):
into giving?
And if you think that that's apossibility, how would you avoid
that?
John Shaw (29:15):
I think it's definitely a possibility.
Thinking back to, you knowagain, 2 Corinthians 9, verses 6
, verses 6 and 7, encouragingpeople to give from the heart,
not reluctantly, but also notunder compulsion, for God loves
a cheerful giver.
I think it's even possible touse the biblical model of a
(29:37):
tithe as a club rather than anencouragement, and I think you
even see kind of a not a shift,but a gospel development in how
giving is talked about, in thatthe New Testament spends less
time on tithe and more time oncheerful giving and generosity,
and there's even some warningsfrom Jesus about how the tithe
(29:58):
can be used in a way that standsin conflict with the gospel.
I don't wanna go into thosetexts right now, but as he's
warning about the Pharisees, andso I think there's both a
danger and I think the remedy insome sense this might be too
simplistic, but I'll try toexplain what I mean by it is
more gospel Just remindingpeople, and I think that's what
(30:18):
Paul's doing.
So he's coming to collect agift that they've already
promised to give.
When he goes to the Corinthians, they're giving to support
people who are in need inJerusalem.
He's traveling to plantchurches, but also to gather
offerings to care for those inneed, obligations about caring
(30:45):
for people in need, but heprimarily encourages them
through the gospel and throughwhat Jesus has done for them.
And I think part of ourreluctance and I think there is
a reluctance on the part ofpastors to preach about giving
is because we're afraid thatwe're going to use it to lead
people to give out of compulsionrather than out of a heart
that's changed by the gospel.
And this is where elders anddeacons can work hand in hand.
(31:06):
You know, the elders andpastors who have a word in
prayer bent to their ministryand the deacons that have a
service bent that we all do ourjobs, our tasks, well and do
them hand in hand and letpastors and elders be pastors
and elders and deacons bedeacons.
I think that's a big piece ofit.
So we're holding forth, aspastors and elders, the gospel
(31:28):
and then the obedience thatflows from the gospel, and then
the deacons are setting anexample of and then encouraging
and motivating people towardgenerosity and service.
Those things work hand in gloveand I think you know the Spirit
works through those things tobend people toward generosity.
That's maybe not very specific,but I hope it helps kind of get
(31:51):
there.
I think it does.
Bob Keys (31:54):
My heart is this your question was so real, but there
are ways that deacons need toencourage the church and I'll
give you three points that Ithink every deacon should
consider in terms of how weencourage and bless the church
in terms of giving.
And let me give those in threeseparate points.
(32:14):
Number one, and I think it'sthe most important, we haven't
talked enough about it prayer.
We need to first prayindividually for our own hearts
to grow in our own love asdeacons for mercy.
If we aren't growing in ourlove for mercy, what do we
expect?
We need to pray as the deaconboard for the work in the church
(32:37):
that he will facilitate themercy ministry of the body, and
that's a general statement butit can lead to all different
kinds of specific ways in whichwe see people begin to really
understand mercy ministry fromthe gospel and begin to act and
give in a general sense, inevery sense, to the church and
(32:59):
those outside the church for thegospel.
And we need to pray for theSpirit's work in changing our
congregation into an outwardbasing, mercy-loving church.
So important, first pray.
Number two encouragement.
I Barnabas.
There he is by being an exampleof sacrificial loving and
(33:21):
giving, giving of our time,giving of our own wealth, giving
of our talents and gifts andgiving of our hearts to and for
others.
He's powerful.
A good friend of mine told methis when I was 25 years old
More is caught than taught.
So true, if the church doesn'tsee it in our lives, what's
going to motivate them, if thedeacons can't do it?
(33:43):
But if we do it, we can leadthe church in true mercy
ministry for the cause of Christ, for our Savior.
The last one is communication.
Use the word communicate,communicate, communicate.
It sounds like a realtor sayinglocation, location, location,
but in the deacon's life it'scommunication.
Let others know what mercyministry really looks like.
(34:04):
Teach them, by working side byside with them, how loving mercy
and how to be a servant and towash people's feet.
Don't expect them to giveunless they are shown,
encouraged and prayed with.
Let them see the blessings ofgiving financially and giving of
themselves to the lives ofothers.
(34:25):
This will be used by the HolySpirit to give real life meaning
to mercy ministry.
They have to experience and seefirsthand how it changes lives
and gives them real joy andpeace in the Lord.
It's contagious, anoutward-facing Mercy Ministry
church dedicated to meeting realneeds in the hearts of others
(34:47):
is a true gospel witness in whatwill change the life and the
heart of a church and itsmembers.
It'll change a church and Idon't know what you're going to
do with all the funds, butthere's always need.
Chris Cashen (35:00):
Thank you, bob.
Well, brothers, let me give youa scenario and open it up for
your response.
You've got a widow in yourchurch who's approached you
after reading this passage inLuke 21 and is moved by the
widow's offering.
She's excited and she tells youthat she's now ready to cash in
her retirement account and, inobedience to Christ, pour the
(35:23):
entire thing into the offeringplate.
How do you respond?
What do you say to this dearwoman?
Bob Keys (35:29):
I love that.
I would just man, wow, Iwouldn't want to discourage her.
And yet what I would say one isonce she's a widow, let's talk
about her being a widow first.
That means she doesn't have ahusband, she doesn't have
someone.
Maybe he did all the financialplanning, maybe he did all the
finances First.
I hope you know her, I hope shetrusts you.
I hope that you have beenwalking side by side or through
(35:53):
the difficult process ofbecoming a widow.
Number two ask what your realneeds are.
Maybe, if her husband was doingall the financial stuff, you
need to step in and lovingly andgraciously help her with her
finances, figuring out how topay the bills and how to do the
taxes and do the other thingsthat a widow may never have done
(36:14):
.
If that's the case, then that'swhere you start.
You start with a relationshipthat you can encourage her and
bless her.
Her heart is just like the widowat her mites.
What a blessing to see thatkind of heart that loves the
Lord that much.
So you don't want to discouragethat, but work with her.
Help her to see how to wiselybudget and if she really wants
(36:36):
to, she can make a will whichshe should have and give her
money at the end.
If she doesn't have a family,give it to the church, but give
it at the end rather thanimmediately.
It's called wisdom and loveWisely telling this widow how to
wisely budget and take care ofwhat God's given her but be
generous in all that she has andencourage her to do things that
(36:58):
she's able to do given otherways as well.
There's so many different waysthat a widow can encourage a
family that has six childrenthat she can pray for the
congregation.
So it's not just finances, it'sall about life and how she can
serve and minister to yourchurch in so many different ways
that she has, for the glory ofGod and for the benefit of the
(37:19):
church.
So I think it's a much biggerpicture than just giving all she
has.
I think it's really about howto encourage her, how to
instruct her, how to walk besideher, how to encourage her in
where she's at as a widow.
And what a blessing to hearabout this widow and her heart
for the Lord.
Chris Cashen (37:36):
All right brothers .
One more scenario A significantdiaconal need has been
presented to the church.
Mr Jones imaginary, a longtimefaithful member of the church,
has been diagnosed with cancer,but he has no health insurance
and, as we all know, the cost ofmedical care is great.
The actinal fund isinsufficient.
So what do you do?
(37:58):
How do you use the principleswe've discussed from Luke and 2
Corinthians and 1 Timothy toaddress this?
Where do we look?
What do we?
John Shaw (38:06):
do Bob, if that's all right, please, I think.
Just two quick things.
First of all, this is where Ithink sessions and deacons
working together is a big dealand I'm not sure we always
connect them as well as weshould.
So there's clearly mercy needs,but also significant spiritual
(38:30):
needs, and I think coming upwith a plan for the session and
for the deacons to work togetheris a big deal, and recognizing
how that all fits together, Ithink I just want to get this in
.
I feel like I'm in a volleyballmatch where I set and then Bob
spikes.
So I just wanted to get infront of Bob on this one,
because he's gotten in front ofme a couple of times when I had
stuff in my notes for later Justlots of prayer.
(38:51):
I'm with Bob on that.
I had prayer written down that Iwas going to get to.
It's instructive to me thatJohn Calvin was the theologian
of the Holy Spirit who also,like his section in the
Institutes on Prayer, is some ofthe best writing on prayer in
the history of the church.
Probably that reformed folksaren't known as they should be
(39:15):
for their dependence on the HolySpirit and their commitment to
prayer, and this is, you know,someone who needs a lot of
prayer from the whole church.
So thinking about how to getthe whole church engaged, not
just in serving but in praying,is a big deal.
We have several people in ourchurch that it's not similar to
this and that they have healthinsurance, but it's amazing how
(39:37):
people who can't get to churchbecause of their health needs
but can listen online and hearthemselves prayed for by name.
I'll get texts during theworship service that I find
after the service.
Thank you so much for prayingfor me.
I miss the church so much, likethere's just something about
that.
That prayer has all sorts ofaspects of the ways that the
(39:58):
Lord uses it, but it's anencouragement for people to know
the church is praying for themwhen they're in deep need.
So then I'll hand off to Bob,because you know, if an elder or
pastor gets this, one of thefirst things they should do is
pull their deacons in and sayhelp us.
Bob Keys (40:18):
So, john, I love your setup.
The whole church is the realkey here.
It takes a whole church.
There are so many issues, notjust financial, here.
It's more about so manydifferent issues that Mr Jones
has, and it takes the wholechurch.
It takes the leadership, but italso takes the congregation.
And you're so right, john,prayer is so important here, and
(40:40):
not just for him, but with himand praying with people.
It goes from a two-dimensionalto a three-dimensional structure
that brings God directly to him.
Now, from a deacon'sperspective, that's part of the
deacons.
I mean deacons should bepraying with people.
I just think that's soimportant.
I think so many deacons thinkthat that's not part of their
job, and I absolutely know thatone of the most important things
deacons can do is pray withthose in need Cannot be replaced
(41:04):
.
Now, in terms of Mr Jones, let'sconsider Mr Jones.
He's worried, he's fearful, notonly about finances but about
his life.
So there's many issues thatneed to be dealt with, and so
the whole church, as I said,needs to be involved.
Think about who is in yourchurch that can help him in all
the different aspects of hisneed.
I'm sure he probably has afamily and they too are scared
(41:27):
and they too have need.
So you have lots of differentneeds and a lot of different
ways in which the deacons shouldbe pulling people together to
make meals, walk side by sidewith the wife, the husband,
encouraging them in their faithand their trust in Christ.
Now let's talk about thefinances.
I mean, that's the other part Ithink is the most important.
But the finances, to me, arerather simple, but we can talk
(41:49):
about them.
I mean, there's lots ofdifferent ways that we can
handle that, but go slow.
One is go slow.
This is not a race, this is aslow process.
Look for family help first.
That's biblically solid.
Look for the family.
What can the family do?
And the hospital's gonna payfor a lot of this.
Trust me, 60 to 80% is gonna beall gone before you even start,
(42:11):
when they realize that theyhave no insurance and their
finances are limited.
So again, that's our system andit's not wrong to use the
hospital and their means to helpin this matter.
I love Presbyterianism.
It's really a wonderful thingand the reality is is we have
the church community first andif we communicate, communicate,
(42:35):
communicate in the right ways,lovingly, thinking about this
family and how we shouldcommunicate wisely for them and
not hurt them.
I guarantee you churches willgive sacrificially for this
long-term member in need.
But we're not alone.
We got a presbytery, we gotchurches in our area that are
just waiting to help encourageand bless this family and they
(42:58):
want to hear about what God'sdoing in this situation.
And so the PDC, our PresbyteryDiaconal Committees, are ready
to alert our churches in ourpresbyteries to help fund and
minister to this family.
And I have never seen a need yetin 25 years in our Ohio
Presbytery that we weren't ableto adequately handle through a
(43:21):
letter of clarity of what'sgoing on in this church with Mr
Jones, that the other churchesdidn't joyfully send money to
help.
And if that didn't work, if itwas a much bigger picture than
even that, then we have thedenomination level, the
Committee on Diaconal Ministriesthat's willing and ready to
help as well, and this is calledPresbyterianism.
(43:42):
We're not alone, we're not alocal church on an island.
We are together as a part ofthe Church of Jesus Christ.
What a blessing to know thatwe're cared for and loved by
many, many churches and adenomination that is for the
blessings and the mercies of ourLord Jesus Christ.
So again, that's a long answerto a really a fairly short
(44:03):
question.
But the reality is the deaconhas many, many ways in which
they can facilitate and blessthis family in great need, and
yet God is always there tosupply richly through the
churches of Jesus Christ.
Chris Cashen (44:18):
Amen Brothers, thank you, John and Bob, for
taking the time to help us walkthrough a few passages of
scripture on financial giving.
But you men have turned it tothe heart and so I really
appreciate that.
That's been encouraging to meand I hope it's been encouraging
to our deacons, even taking adifficult topic and pointing us
(44:39):
right back to Jesus, right backto the gospel and to the center
of the heart.
So thank you, brothers, deacons, we hope that this episode is
helpful to you and will be anencouragement in your labors for
the Lord.
You know you can squeeze and you can push and you
can do all kinds of things toget money, but that's not what
this is about.
It's about this woman's heartand how God's changed it.
David Nakhla (00:09):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
Chris Cashen (00:28):
Welcome to another episode of the Reformed Deacon
Podcast.
My name is Chris Cashen and Iserve as pastor of Trinity
Reformed OPC just outside ofWashington DC in Lanham,
maryland, and I also have theprivilege of serving on the
OPC's Committee for DiaconalMinistries.
Today with me is Pastor JohnShaw and Deacon Bob Keyes, both
(00:48):
from Grace OPC in Columbus, ohio, and I believe both have been
guests on the Reformed Deaconpodcast before.
But let me introduce these goodbrothers as we begin.
Well, first, pastor Shaw,serving at Grace OPC.
Raised as a covenant child inthe OPC, served as a deacon and
an elder before going toseminary and then served seven
(01:08):
years as a church planter andpastor and mission OPC at St
Paul, minnesota, and youprobably know him best as the
general secretary of our homemissions committee.
He served there for 11 yearsand now has been at Grace
Columbus for two years as pastor.
Welcome, john, really glad tohave you this morning.
John Shaw (01:26):
Thanks, Chris, very happy to be with you guys.
Chris Cashen (01:29):
And Bob.
Bob, you've been in Columbusfor some time a few years at
least, I guess since 1979 tohelp start the congregation
there at Columbus, and beenliving there for the last 46
years and serving and attendingthat church the deacon for over
40 years that's amazing and hasserved for a quarter of a
(01:49):
century in the PresbyteryDiaconal Committee there in the
Presbytery of Ohio and servedseveral terms on the CDM.
You're married to Kathy, twochildren and seven grandchildren
and it's just a joy to have youback on the podcast, bob
Welcome.
Bob Keys (02:05):
I'm blessed and I'm so glad to be here with you today.
Thank you.
Chris Cashen (02:09):
Well, brothers, thank you for taking time to be
with us.
Today we're going to bediscussing giving and giving in
the church and very specificallyfinancial giving.
We know that the gospel is freebut it takes dollars to carry
it around and people havematerial needs within the church
and at times and in particularcircumstances the church is
(02:30):
called to address those needsand certainly deacons are
involved in that ministry.
They're involved in this topic.
Our book of church orderspecifically provides that the
board it's referring to, theboard of deacons shall oversee
the ministry of mercy in thechurch and here's the important
part shall collect and dispersefunds for the relief of the
(02:53):
needy.
This was probably based uponthe first group of what we might
refer to as New Testamentdeacons who were charged with
distributing food for the widows.
That's from Acts, chapter 6.
Now, if they were to distributefood, we can imagine that they
were also called to collect thefood or funds for the purchase
(03:13):
of the food.
So they likely began theirministry by encouraging others
to give.
In this episode we want toconsider that kind of giving,
that kind of encouragement inthe deacon's role in doing so,
so that there will be thiscollection of funds which then
leads to distribution.
From time to time on the podcast, we pick up a short portion of
(03:36):
Scripture to see how it mighthelp us think through a
particular topic, and that'swhat we intend to do this
morning.
A particular topic, and that'swhat we intend to do this
morning.
We intend to open up aparticular passage and consider
it theologically, first,obviously, to strengthen a
deacon's understanding andpurpose for office, and then
we're going to invite ourbrothers here to opine on the
(03:57):
application of that passage.
That's really what we're tryingto do practically apply these
particular doctrines.
That's really what we're tryingto do practically apply these
particular doctrines.
Today we're going to be lookingat Luke, chapter 21,
specifically verses 1 through 4.
And you might know of thispassage as the widow's might,
but most of our discussion isgoing to be focused upon the
application of this passage asit relates to the work of the
(04:19):
deacon.
So let me just give us a littlebit of context as we get to
that passage.
Jesus was teaching in the temple, he's preaching the gospel, and
now he's attacked really by thechief priests, the scribes and
the religious leaders of the day.
He's peppered with questionsconcerning his authority, his
identity, really.
And that brings us to hisquestion to those who've been
(04:44):
questioning him about Psalm 110.
The Lord said to my Lord, sitat my right hand until I make
your enemies your footstool.
And he asked that question howis it that David calls him Lord,
who is his son?
And so he's bringing thatquestion of his identity right
to their faces?
And then he begins this In thehearing of all the people.
(05:06):
He said to his disciples Bewareof the scribes who like to walk
around in long robes and lovegreetings in the marketplaces,
in the best seats, in thesynagogues, in the places of
honor at feasts, who devourwidows' houses and, for a
pretense, make long prayers.
They will receive the greatercondemnation.
That's really important for usto understand that.
(05:26):
That's kind of the introductionto what we have next and that
which we want to focus on.
It's the scribes, the religiousleaders, who are devouring
widows' houses in that day.
Here's our text this morninglet's give attention to God's
Word.
Jesus looked up and saw therich putting their gifts into
(05:46):
the offering box and he saw apoor widow put in two small
copper coins and he said truly,I tell you, this poor widow has
put in more than all of them,for they all contributed out of
their abundance, but she, out ofher poverty, put in all she had
to live on.
(06:06):
Amen, hey John, would you prayfor us?
John Shaw (06:09):
I am happy to.
Let's pray, lord.
God, we're thankful for yourword and thankful for your
spirit, thankful that, as weread the scriptures, we know
that you are giving us eternaltruth that's for our good, to
strengthen us in faith andobedience.
And we're thankful, lord, inparticular, for the fact that we
can come to you in the name ofJesus and be reminded of your
(06:32):
generosity toward us, the loveof our Savior, and that, as we
reflect on the gospel, you workin us thanksgiving and joy that
overflows in service and giving.
We pray, lord, that you wouldstrengthen us in that.
We know our heart is not alwaysbent toward generosity, but
(06:54):
that you can re-bend and directour hearts to serve you and to
serve others.
And so we pray, lord, thatyou'd even encourage us in that,
as we consider your word today,we pray these things in the
great name of Jesus.
Amen.
Chris Cashen (07:05):
Amen, thank you.
Well, brothers, before we openup this passage specifically, I
just want to kind of set thetable.
I suppose I would like to knowhow important is giving,
financial giving to the church,whether it be for mercy ministry
or general ministry of the Wordof God.
I suppose we should start there.
Why should our deacons beinterested in the topic of
(07:29):
giving?
John Shaw (07:30):
Well, I think first of all we should be interested
because God's interested.
We'll talk about this more, butit's even just reflecting on
this and preparing is remindedhow often the Bible instructs us
in generosity and reminds us ofthe generosity of God and of
Jesus toward us.
So I think if we understand thegospel then generous giving
(07:52):
should be important and in factit's at the very heart of the
gospel.
So that's part of how Godstraightens, bends our hearts
more according to his will is towork generosity in us.
So it's kind of at the veryheart of ministry as a whole and
uniquely for deacons.
I maybe leave that for Bob totalk about a little bit.
Bob Keys (08:10):
I think that by nature we're very, very selfish people
, but selflessness is part ofthe Christian heart and
Christian life.
And giving, not justfinancially I know financial
giving is important but givingof our time, our energy, our
gifts, our possessions andwealth and everything else that
we have and are, are signs of atrue changed heart by the work
(08:34):
of the Holy Spirit.
Man looks on the outward, butGod looks at the heart, and I
think all this is about theheart.
All I'm going to be talkingabout is the heart.
It's about our hearts and it'sabout what God's doing in them
and through us and by us, and,again, the joy that that brings
when we see others blessed bythe gospel and by the meager
givings that we give.
It's not our gifts, it's thestewardship that God's given to
(08:57):
us, everything that joy that wereceive as we see God's
blessings in this church.
Chris Cashen (09:05):
Oh man, it's real.
Well, brothers, those areencouraging answers and I think
what you've just done is givenme the green light to go ahead
and dig into this passage.
So thank you.
This passage gives us a littleglimpse into one aspect of the
Old Testament temple worship.
We know that the priests, theLevites, were provided for in
(09:25):
the sacrificial offerings,whether that was unleavened
bread or meat set apart for them.
So they were provided for atleast in part.
These gifts that Jesus observesbeing placed into the offering
box, presumably financial gifts,and we know that for a fact
that widow places two coins, twocopper coins, into the box so
(09:49):
they're not used, we don't thinkto support those who labored in
the temple.
So what were these gifts for,if we can know that?
John Shaw (09:58):
Yeah, I appreciated the question, Chris, because I
don't know that this text tellsus what they're for.
And yet it was amazing to thinkabout the whole of the New
Testament and how muchinstruction there is about
giving.
I think if we're reading thescriptures rightly, we're
reading this passage in thecontext of the rest of the Bible
, but I think especially the NewTestament, and it was kind of
(10:21):
amazing to think about how oftenthe New Testament talks about
giving.
So, thinking about Jesus, firstof all, the Sermon on the Mount
, Jesus regularly with thePharisees and scribes, Jesus in
his parables, acts 2 through 6,james all over Paul, how much is
(10:42):
about giving and how the givingis almost always about caring
for those in need.
And so, like Acts 2 has alwaysbeen amazing to me, both because
it gives us kind of thestructure of what the church
should care about, so whatthey're committed to, teaching
and sacraments and fellowshipand prayer.
And yet after that the rest ofthe text talks about how they
(11:04):
gave so that no one had need,and I think it's in that context
that we should be reading Luke21.
This is about caring for peoplein need.
It's what makes it so shocking,because someone who, just in
the little description we get ofher is, throughout scripture
described as needy is giving tothose in need.
It's a remarkable text in thatway, and we'll get to more of
(11:27):
this.
But how much that just flowsout of the gospel that Jesus
came to care not for those whoare healthy but for those who
are sick, which of course, firstof all has gospel import.
He's coming for sinners, notthe righteous, as he says in
that text Mark 2, 17.
But then how we have anopportunity to live out the
gospel and caring for those whoare needy.
(11:49):
I think that's the context ofhow we have to read this text
and, again, I think it's whatmakes it so shocking is, in
these four verses, to see aneedy person who's probably poor
, who is poor, caring for otherpeople who are needy and poor.
It's remarkable.
Chris Cashen (12:07):
It is.
I appreciate your going toother texts to help us kind of.
I'm not sure we're speculating,but maybe trying to understand
how these funds might have beenused.
So I appreciate that.
Bob Keys (12:18):
You started the conversation in the early church
, J hn in Acts, chapter 2.
You didn't say enough aboutchapter 4 and chapter 6, but
they all flow together in theearly church and how the early
church truly cared, loved andministered the gospel of Christ
to the world, to the church andthen the world.
(12:39):
I have to mention a guy named,one of my favorites, barnabas.
Barnabas is the real guy inActs, chapter 4.
Ananias and Sapphira reallyweren't.
They spent 10 times more timeon them, but Barnabas was the
guy.
Barnabas was called the son ofencouragement and what did he do
?
What did Joseph Barnabas do?
Wore off his, prospered him andhe sold his stuff and laid it
(13:01):
before the apostles' feet sothat people would not be in need
.
And there was no need.
The scriptures are clear herethat there was no one that had
need in the church because ofthis love and gracious giving by
people like Barnabas.
And then what did Barnabas dolater on?
He was one of the greatestevangelists, along with Paul, of
all time.
I think he should have been adeacon, but maybe he was a
deacon, I don't know.
But one sentence, chapter 4,and this guy out of the blue
(13:26):
that loved the Lord, JesusChrist was filled with spirit,
gave of what he had that peoplewould not have need.
There's the example Before thedeacons were even installed,
stephen Philip and all the otherfive, before they were
installed, it was Barnabas whoshowed the church how to love,
how to give and how to care forthose in need.
(13:47):
And again, I love Barnabas, sonof encouragement, and I'll talk
a lot about encouragement here,because I think that's what the
deacons do.
We encourage by our love forChrist, mercy ministry and we
show the church I'll talk a lotabout this later, but again,
this is what we do.
This is what the deacons, theirblood, is all about.
They're about showing andfacilitating the mercy ministry,
(14:11):
just as Barnabas did, the sonof encouragement for the gospel
of Christ.
Chris Cashen (14:16):
Very good.
Just an aside, bob is it thedeacons' practice at Grace to
take up a separate offering formercy ministries?
Bob Keys (14:25):
We always have.
I think it's so important thatthe diaconal offerings be
separate from the regular tithesand offerings.
I think there's lots of reasonsfor that, Chris.
I think that one we need topresent to the church what the
deacon does and what mercyministry is, and we have a lot
of new visitors in our church.
We have a lot of new members inour church that really don't
(14:46):
know really what deacons do.
A lot of them are not fromReformed and Presbyterian
churches and the deacon in otherchurches, if they have deacons,
they don't do what we do, andso it's really important that
they begin to see that this is aseparate offering for mercy
ministry for the cause of Christand for the gospel of Christ to
be proclaimed not only withinthe church but outside the
(15:08):
church, and that the world mightknow and see the love and the
mercy of our Savior Jesus Christ, and his self-sacrificing for
us is an example for us to dothe same thing for others.
May the Lord grant the churchthat same idea that we serve and
minister by these offerings tothe church and to the world, the
(15:28):
gospel of Christ.
And so, yes, it's veryimportant we need to have
separate offerings where wecommunicate what we do, how we
do it and confidentially bevarious things we can speak of
that tell of how we're using thefunds to bless the body of
Christ and to show the gospel tonon-believers.
Chris Cashen (15:47):
Yeah, thank you.
So back to the passage, John.
It seems that some may walkaway from this passage with the
thought that Jesus really careslittle for giving by the wealthy
.
He doesn't focus on those folksat all.
(16:07):
Is that the case?
John Shaw (16:09):
It's not the case, and I really appreciated that
you included the couple ofverses from the end of chapter
20 and described some of thecontext.
You know the encouragement isto give from the heart.
We'll get to that a little bit,but even the warning about the
scribes, I mean, these arepeople of significance, in
(16:30):
position and power and even inwealth, and they give for all
the wrong reasons, if we thinkabout how the Gospels describe
them.
They don't give in secret, theygive in public, so that people
will recognize them.
They wear, as it said, longrobes and do all these things to
be noticed, offer long prayers,and there's a sense in which
(16:50):
what Jesus is doing in the text,like he does so often, is
present.
Two types of people in contrast,and so this poor widow becomes
the example, even because of hercircumstance, of someone who
gives a generosity that'ssurprising and almost shocking,
because there's a sense in whichwe could say she's the one in
need.
Why would she give?
(17:11):
And yet she gives and shebecomes an encouragement.
Uh, holy Spirit, generated,prod, if you will, to all of us,
whether we have abundance ornot, to give from the heart out
of thanksgiving and joy.
So I was thinking ofPhilippians 4, where Paul says
(17:33):
this kind of surprising thingthat he's content whether in
plenty or in want.
And I think sometimes we readthat and say, well, of course
he's content when there's plentyin want.
And I think sometimes we readthat and say, well, of course
he's content when there's plentybecause it's easy to be content
then.
But actually we know as we growolder that it's just as hard to
be content in plenty as it isin want.
But generosity flows fromcontentment.
(17:53):
So that's maybe a roundaboutway to get at it to say he's
concerned about all of us.
He's concerned about all of us,wealthy or poor.
That, by the grace of God, wehave fostered in our hearts the
kind of thankfulness thatoverflows in generosity.
We see that so clearly in thispoor widow.
Bob Keys (18:21):
So yeah, he cares about all of us poor or rich,
that we would respond to thegospel with thankfulness and
generosity.
I got to follow along with thatwith Philippians 2.
You talked about Philippians 4,but I go to Philippians 2 first
.
Look at Christ.
Look at Christ.
Look at our Savior.
Let me read just a little bit ofPhilippians 2, which again is
one of my favorite passages.
Let me read the whole thing.
If there's any encouragement inChrist, any comfort from love,
(18:42):
any participation in the Spirit,any affection and sympathy,
complete my joy by being of thesame mind, having the same love,
being in full accord and of onemind, Do nothing from
self-ambition or conceit, but inhumility, count others more
significant than yourselves.
Let each of you look not onlyfor his own interests but also
(19:06):
for the interests of others.
Selflessness, giving.
And again I have to make onemore comment.
I think there is a gift of thespirit of giving in Scripture
that talks about giving, peoplebeing able to give out of their
abundance, and that's a giftfrom the Spirit as well, and
that's good.
So I don't, as John said, it'snot about the amount, it's about
(19:27):
the heart and about lovingothers in generosity.
Chris Cashen (19:30):
Well, brothers, that has caused me to think
about this a bit.
Do you think that there is someparallel between this widow,
this poor widow who gives out ofher poverty, and Jesus Christ,
who comes in poverty so to speak, I think, absolutely.
John Shaw (19:53):
You know, I think you're hoping eventually to get
us to 2 Corinthians 9 and theconnection I mean.
I think clearly all of this isrooted in the gospel, where
Jesus isn't just an example tobe imitated though he is but
that by his work in his death,resurrection and ascension, his
spirit being sent to us, ourhearts are changed, our
(20:17):
perspective reformed and remadeso that we, like that
Philippians 2 text says, we havehis mind among us.
Our minds and hearts arechanged and bent toward Jesus,
and that's where I think all ofthis is kind of taking us.
The whole bent of scripture isthat God has a heart for the
nations there's evangelism and aheart for the poor and
(20:40):
oppressed there's generosity.
He displays it in Jesus.
Nations, there's evangelism ina heart for the poor and
oppressed, there's generosity.
He displays it in Jesus, andthen, as he regenerates us, he
makes us like Jesus so yeah, Ithink she's.
Bob Keys (20:57):
She's pointing us toward Jesus and what he does on
the cross.
Very good, I think back onmatthew 5, poverty.
Matthew 5 Jesus talks about thepoor in spirit, for theirs is
the kingdom of God.
Again, the difference is thework of the Holy Spirit in the
heart of the believer.
It's all about the HolySpirit's work.
You know you can squeeze andyou can push and you can do all
kinds of things to get money,but that's not what this is
about.
It's about this woman's heartand how God's changed it.
Chris Cashen (21:24):
So, Bob, if I were to point you to Abram giving a
tenth of everything toMelchizedek and other passages
in Scripture which speak of atenth as a standard for giving,
or at least a model.
It appears that the widow'sgifts was much less than that,
and yet Jesus praises her.
How can that be?
Bob Keys (21:44):
Well, that was an interesting question and I'm
still contemplating.
Let me tell you what I thinkJesus says in the passage that
she gave all that she had tolive on.
I don't know what percentagethat was or what tie that
equates to, but I do know thatJesus was looking at her heart.
Again, all I can say I keeptalking about the heart and not
(22:06):
to a percentage or a dollaramount.
God owns the cattle on athousand hills.
He can supply anything.
He doesn't need our money.
He needs our heart.
He needs our hearts.
Man looks on the outward, butGod looks on the heart.
Man looks on the outward, butGod looks on the heart.
Chris Cashen (22:21):
Well, there are certainly other passages in
Scripture that deal with giving,and 2 Corinthians 9, verse 5
reads this way.
So I thought it necessary tourge the brothers to go on ahead
to you arrange in advance forthe gift you promised.
So Paul's already lookingforward to this giving that has
(22:45):
been promised to him.
He's coming to get it.
And then we read this the pointis this whoever sows sparingly
will also reap sparingly, andwhoever sows bountifully will
also reap bountifully.
Each one must give as he'sdecided in his heart.
We've heard that word manytimes already today, Not
reluctantly or under compulsion,for God loves a cheerful giver.
So, John, you've alreadyalluded to this, but could you
(23:07):
open that up just a bit more?
How does this passage in 2Corinthians work with the
passage of the widow's mite thatwe're considering today?
John Shaw (23:15):
Yeah, there's a lot of interesting things just in
those couple verses.
I'm interested in verse 6 thatit really talks about the reward
for giving, which I think we'rea little bit afraid to talk
about sometimes because we wantit to be sacrificial.
We forget that there's actuallya reward and that God promises
that.
See you, sow bountifully, reapbountifully.
(23:37):
I think it's interesting aswell that it says the person who
gives that he or she hasdecided not in his mind but in
his heart.
It's a really interesting turnof phrase that Paul does.
We know the heart in Scripturekind of is the rudder that
guides our words and our actions.
(23:58):
So it's in some sense sayinghis whole life is bent toward
generosity and therefore hedoesn't give reluctantly, he
gives cheerfully.
To get at how this connects tothe widow.
I think what else is interestingin 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 as a
whole is that it begins and endswith the gospel.
(24:19):
So it begins with Jesus, whowas willing to become poor so
that you could become rich,taking us to the cross, and it
ends chapter nine does, withPaul rejoicing in, I think, in
Christ, this inexpressible gift,which isn't just salvation
(24:41):
through the cross but it'sChrist as a whole.
And so I think what Paul'sdoing is saying this heart
that's been captured by God andchanged by God is so captured
with the beauty of Jesus thatit's now bent toward
thanksgiving, toward joy, towardgenerosity.
(25:02):
And isn't that what we see inthe widow, that she one
recognizes that even in herpoverty the Lord has dealt
graciously with her.
So she's rejoicing and thankfuleven in her poverty, and she
sees that other people's needmight be greater than hers.
That only makes sense in lightof the gospel and what Christ
(25:25):
has done for us.
And so I think all that's kindof underneath Luke 21.
And, like you suggested earlier, Chris, that she is in some
sense pointing us toward Jesus.
Very clearly, the gospel is atthe heart of this, toward Jesus.
Very clearly, the gospel is atthe heart of this.
(25:45):
And so if we're going to growin generosity and our churches
are our primary focus, doesn'tchange.
We give them Jesus and thegospel over and over again and
remind them of thisinexpressible gift that is ours
in Jesus, and the only naturalresponse is thanksgiving, joy
and generosity.
Chris Cashen (26:03):
Good.
Thank you Well, bob.
I don't want to throw darts andarrows at the widow, but in 1
Timothy 5, paul tells Timothy ifanyone does not provide for his
relatives, and especially forthe members of his household,
he's denied.
The faith is worse than anunbeliever.
As Jesus observes this widow,he sees that she puts in all she
(26:24):
had to live on.
Now Luke doesn't tell usanything more other than she
gave out of her poverty.
But how can we really read thispassage of the widow's might
and Jesus prays for heralongside Paul's admonishment to
Timothy about denying the faith?
Bob Keys (26:42):
Another great question .
I enjoyed thinking about thisone and in 1 Timothy 5, we ask
the question who is Paul talkingabout in the passage?
I mean, we always want to askourselves these kind of
questions when we read Scripture.
If anyone I'm going to use theword anyone, that's what Paul
uses if anyone, who is thisanyone?
Why is this person notproviding for his family is the
(27:04):
real bottom line question, Ibelieve in the passage.
I look at it.
Could it be sin?
I think it is sin.
Could it be this?
Anyone is lazy, greedy,self-indulgent, a drunken,
addict or worse.
What kind of heart does thisanyone have in this 1 Timothy
passage?
What relationship do they havewith Christ is what we always
(27:28):
ask as a deacon.
Where are they at?
What motivates them?
And I have to believe that Paulis looking at someone that
needs Jesus Christ, and that'swhat he basically says at the
end in terms of his finalunderstanding of who this person
is.
This is not the widow in ourLuke passage.
Her heart is this love, joy,peace, patience, kindness,
(27:50):
goodness, faithfulness,gentleness and self-control.
That's what she is.
The Holy Spirit's work in herheart and her life.
It's the gospel that's changedher and this is not the person
of 1 Timothy 5.
It's directly opposite and thisis not the person of 1 Timothy
5.
It's directly opposite and sothis is the way to look at it.
It's not at all the same heart.
It's two different hearts, andthe other heart needs to see the
(28:12):
gospel that the widow has andrepent and turn to the Lord,
Jesus Christ, and be saved andthen develop a heart of the
widow.
Chris Cashen (28:21):
That's very helpful.
Bob Brothers, we've beenpractical, I think, but I want
to even get more practical atthis point and I think we're
agreed and help me if I got thiswrong, but I think we're agreed
that the diaconate should beinvolved in encouraging members
of the congregation to give.
So, john, in speaking withmembers about giving, is it
(28:43):
possible to cross the line,meaning as a deacon or an elder
encourages members to give, bereceived not as encouragement
but as an onerous command, suchthat the members feel pressured
(29:10):
into giving?
And if you think that that's apossibility, how would you avoid
that?
John Shaw (29:15):
I think it's definitely a possibility.
Thinking back to, you knowagain, 2 Corinthians 9, verses 6
, verses 6 and 7, encouragingpeople to give from the heart,
not reluctantly, but also notunder compulsion, for God loves
a cheerful giver.
I think it's even possible touse the biblical model of a
(29:37):
tithe as a club rather than anencouragement, and I think you
even see kind of a not a shift,but a gospel development in how
giving is talked about, in thatthe New Testament spends less
time on tithe and more time oncheerful giving and generosity,
and there's even some warningsfrom Jesus about how the tithe
(29:58):
can be used in a way that standsin conflict with the gospel.
I don't wanna go into thosetexts right now, but as he's
warning about the Pharisees, andso I think there's both a
danger and I think the remedy insome sense this might be too
simplistic, but I'll try toexplain what I mean by it is
more gospel Just remindingpeople, and I think that's what
(30:18):
Paul's doing.
So he's coming to collect agift that they've already
promised to give.
When he goes to the Corinthians, they're giving to support
people who are in need inJerusalem.
He's traveling to plantchurches, but also to gather
offerings to care for those inneed, obligations about caring
(30:45):
for people in need, but heprimarily encourages them
through the gospel and throughwhat Jesus has done for them.
And I think part of ourreluctance and I think there is
a reluctance on the part ofpastors to preach about giving
is because we're afraid thatwe're going to use it to lead
people to give out of compulsionrather than out of a heart
that's changed by the gospel.
And this is where elders anddeacons can work hand in hand.
(31:06):
You know, the elders andpastors who have a word in
prayer bent to their ministryand the deacons that have a
service bent that we all do ourjobs, our tasks, well and do
them hand in hand and letpastors and elders be pastors
and elders and deacons bedeacons.
I think that's a big piece ofit.
So we're holding forth, aspastors and elders, the gospel
(31:28):
and then the obedience thatflows from the gospel, and then
the deacons are setting anexample of and then encouraging
and motivating people towardgenerosity and service.
Those things work hand in gloveand I think you know the Spirit
works through those things tobend people toward generosity.
That's maybe not very specific,but I hope it helps kind of get
(31:51):
there.
I think it does.
Bob Keys (31:54):
My heart is this your question was so real, but there
are ways that deacons need toencourage the church and I'll
give you three points that Ithink every deacon should
consider in terms of how weencourage and bless the church
in terms of giving.
And let me give those in threeseparate points.
(32:14):
Number one, and I think it'sthe most important, we haven't
talked enough about it prayer.
We need to first prayindividually for our own hearts
to grow in our own love asdeacons for mercy.
If we aren't growing in ourlove for mercy, what do we
expect?
We need to pray as the deaconboard for the work in the church
(32:37):
that he will facilitate themercy ministry of the body, and
that's a general statement butit can lead to all different
kinds of specific ways in whichwe see people begin to really
understand mercy ministry fromthe gospel and begin to act and
give in a general sense, inevery sense, to the church and
(32:59):
those outside the church for thegospel.
And we need to pray for theSpirit's work in changing our
congregation into an outwardbasing, mercy-loving church.
So important, first pray.
Number two encouragement.
I Barnabas.
There he is by being an exampleof sacrificial loving and
(33:21):
giving, giving of our time,giving of our own wealth, giving
of our talents and gifts andgiving of our hearts to and for
others.
He's powerful.
A good friend of mine told methis when I was 25 years old
More is caught than taught.
So true, if the church doesn'tsee it in our lives, what's
going to motivate them, if thedeacons can't do it?
(33:43):
But if we do it, we can leadthe church in true mercy
ministry for the cause of Christ, for our Savior.
The last one is communication.
Use the word communicate,communicate, communicate.
It sounds like a realtor sayinglocation, location, location,
but in the deacon's life it'scommunication.
Let others know what mercyministry really looks like.
(34:04):
Teach them, by working side byside with them, how loving mercy
and how to be a servant and towash people's feet.
Don't expect them to giveunless they are shown,
encouraged and prayed with.
Let them see the blessings ofgiving financially and giving of
themselves to the lives ofothers.
(34:25):
This will be used by the HolySpirit to give real life meaning
to mercy ministry.
They have to experience and seefirsthand how it changes lives
and gives them real joy andpeace in the Lord.
It's contagious, anoutward-facing Mercy Ministry
church dedicated to meeting realneeds in the hearts of others
(34:47):
is a true gospel witness in whatwill change the life and the
heart of a church and itsmembers.
It'll change a church and Idon't know what you're going to
do with all the funds, butthere's always need.
Chris Cashen (35:00):
Thank you, bob.
Well, brothers, let me give youa scenario and open it up for
your response.
You've got a widow in yourchurch who's approached you
after reading this passage inLuke 21 and is moved by the
widow's offering.
She's excited and she tells youthat she's now ready to cash in
her retirement account and, inobedience to Christ, pour the
(35:23):
entire thing into the offeringplate.
How do you respond?
What do you say to this dearwoman?
Bob Keys (35:29):
I love that.
I would just man, wow, Iwouldn't want to discourage her.
And yet what I would say one isonce she's a widow, let's talk
about her being a widow first.
That means she doesn't have ahusband, she doesn't have
someone.
Maybe he did all the financialplanning, maybe he did all the
finances First.
I hope you know her, I hope shetrusts you.
I hope that you have beenwalking side by side or through
(35:53):
the difficult process ofbecoming a widow.
Number two ask what your realneeds are.
Maybe, if her husband was doingall the financial stuff, you
need to step in and lovingly andgraciously help her with her
finances, figuring out how topay the bills and how to do the
taxes and do the other thingsthat a widow may never have done
(36:14):
.
If that's the case, then that'swhere you start.
You start with a relationshipthat you can encourage her and
bless her.
Her heart is just like the widowat her mites.
What a blessing to see thatkind of heart that loves the
Lord that much.
So you don't want to discouragethat, but work with her.
Help her to see how to wiselybudget and if she really wants
(36:36):
to, she can make a will whichshe should have and give her
money at the end.
If she doesn't have a family,give it to the church, but give
it at the end rather thanimmediately.
It's called wisdom and loveWisely telling this widow how to
wisely budget and take care ofwhat God's given her but be
generous in all that she has andencourage her to do things that
(36:58):
she's able to do given otherways as well.
There's so many different waysthat a widow can encourage a
family that has six childrenthat she can pray for the
congregation.
So it's not just finances, it'sall about life and how she can
serve and minister to yourchurch in so many different ways
that she has, for the glory ofGod and for the benefit of the
(37:19):
church.
So I think it's a much biggerpicture than just giving all she
has.
I think it's really about howto encourage her, how to
instruct her, how to walk besideher, how to encourage her in
where she's at as a widow.
And what a blessing to hearabout this widow and her heart
for the Lord.
Chris Cashen (37:36):
All right brothers .
One more scenario A significantdiaconal need has been
presented to the church.
Mr Jones imaginary, a longtimefaithful member of the church,
has been diagnosed with cancer,but he has no health insurance
and, as we all know, the cost ofmedical care is great.
The actinal fund isinsufficient.
So what do you do?
(37:58):
How do you use the principleswe've discussed from Luke and 2
Corinthians and 1 Timothy toaddress this?
Where do we look?
What do we?
John Shaw (38:06):
do Bob, if that's all right, please, I think.
Just two quick things.
First of all, this is where Ithink sessions and deacons
working together is a big dealand I'm not sure we always
connect them as well as weshould.
So there's clearly mercy needs,but also significant spiritual
(38:30):
needs, and I think coming upwith a plan for the session and
for the deacons to work togetheris a big deal, and recognizing
how that all fits together, Ithink I just want to get this in
.
I feel like I'm in a volleyballmatch where I set and then Bob
spikes.
So I just wanted to get infront of Bob on this one,
because he's gotten in front ofme a couple of times when I had
stuff in my notes for later Justlots of prayer.
(38:51):
I'm with Bob on that.
I had prayer written down that Iwas going to get to.
It's instructive to me thatJohn Calvin was the theologian
of the Holy Spirit who also,like his section in the
Institutes on Prayer, is some ofthe best writing on prayer in
the history of the church.
Probably that reformed folksaren't known as they should be
(39:15):
for their dependence on the HolySpirit and their commitment to
prayer, and this is, you know,someone who needs a lot of
prayer from the whole church.
So thinking about how to getthe whole church engaged, not
just in serving but in praying,is a big deal.
We have several people in ourchurch that it's not similar to
this and that they have healthinsurance, but it's amazing how
(39:37):
people who can't get to churchbecause of their health needs
but can listen online and hearthemselves prayed for by name.
I'll get texts during theworship service that I find
after the service.
Thank you so much for prayingfor me.
I miss the church so much, likethere's just something about
that.
That prayer has all sorts ofaspects of the ways that the
(39:58):
Lord uses it, but it's anencouragement for people to know
the church is praying for themwhen they're in deep need.
So then I'll hand off to Bob,because you know, if an elder or
pastor gets this, one of thefirst things they should do is
pull their deacons in and sayhelp us.
Bob Keys (40:18):
So, john, I love your setup.
The whole church is the realkey here.
It takes a whole church.
There are so many issues, notjust financial, here.
It's more about so manydifferent issues that Mr Jones
has, and it takes the wholechurch.
It takes the leadership, but italso takes the congregation.
And you're so right, john,prayer is so important here, and
(40:40):
not just for him, but with himand praying with people.
It goes from a two-dimensionalto a three-dimensional structure
that brings God directly to him.
Now, from a deacon'sperspective, that's part of the
deacons.
I mean deacons should bepraying with people.
I just think that's soimportant.
I think so many deacons thinkthat that's not part of their
job, and I absolutely know thatone of the most important things
deacons can do is pray withthose in need Cannot be replaced
(41:04):
.
Now, in terms of Mr Jones, let'sconsider Mr Jones.
He's worried, he's fearful, notonly about finances but about
his life.
So there's many issues thatneed to be dealt with, and so
the whole church, as I said,needs to be involved.
Think about who is in yourchurch that can help him in all
the different aspects of hisneed.
I'm sure he probably has afamily and they too are scared
(41:27):
and they too have need.
So you have lots of differentneeds and a lot of different
ways in which the deacons shouldbe pulling people together to
make meals, walk side by sidewith the wife, the husband,
encouraging them in their faithand their trust in Christ.
Now let's talk about thefinances.
I mean, that's the other part Ithink is the most important.
But the finances, to me, arerather simple, but we can talk
(41:49):
about them.
I mean, there's lots ofdifferent ways that we can
handle that, but go slow.
One is go slow.
This is not a race, this is aslow process.
Look for family help first.
That's biblically solid.
Look for the family.
What can the family do?
And the hospital's gonna payfor a lot of this.
Trust me, 60 to 80% is gonna beall gone before you even start,
(42:11):
when they realize that theyhave no insurance and their
finances are limited.
So again, that's our system andit's not wrong to use the
hospital and their means to helpin this matter.
I love Presbyterianism.
It's really a wonderful thingand the reality is is we have
the church community first andif we communicate, communicate,
(42:35):
communicate in the right ways,lovingly, thinking about this
family and how we shouldcommunicate wisely for them and
not hurt them.
I guarantee you churches willgive sacrificially for this
long-term member in need.
But we're not alone.
We got a presbytery, we gotchurches in our area that are
just waiting to help encourageand bless this family and they
(42:58):
want to hear about what God'sdoing in this situation.
And so the PDC, our PresbyteryDiaconal Committees, are ready
to alert our churches in ourpresbyteries to help fund and
minister to this family.
And I have never seen a need yetin 25 years in our Ohio
Presbytery that we weren't ableto adequately handle through a
(43:21):
letter of clarity of what'sgoing on in this church with Mr
Jones, that the other churchesdidn't joyfully send money to
help.
And if that didn't work, if itwas a much bigger picture than
even that, then we have thedenomination level, the
Committee on Diaconal Ministriesthat's willing and ready to
help as well, and this is calledPresbyterianism.
(43:42):
We're not alone, we're not alocal church on an island.
We are together as a part ofthe Church of Jesus Christ.
What a blessing to know thatwe're cared for and loved by
many, many churches and adenomination that is for the
blessings and the mercies of ourLord Jesus Christ.
So again, that's a long answerto a really a fairly short
(44:03):
question.
But the reality is the deaconhas many, many ways in which
they can facilitate and blessthis family in great need, and
yet God is always there tosupply richly through the
churches of Jesus Christ.
Chris Cashen (44:18):
Amen Brothers, thank you, John and Bob, for
taking the time to help us walkthrough a few passages of
scripture on financial giving.
But you men have turned it tothe heart and so I really
appreciate that.
That's been encouraging to meand I hope it's been encouraging
to our deacons, even taking adifficult topic and pointing us
(44:39):
right back to Jesus, right backto the gospel and to the center
of the heart.
So thank you, brothers, deacons, we hope that this episode is
helpful to you and will be anencouragement in your labors for
the Lord.
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