Breaking the Silence: The Importance of Discussing Suicidal Thoughts Openly with Dr. Tyson Bailey, PsyD, ABPP

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tyson Conner (00:11):
Do you want to learn about psychological growth
without sorting through thejargon? You're in the right
place. This is the RelationalPsych podcast. I'm your host
licensed therapist, TysonConner. On this show, we learn
about the processes and theoriesbehind personal growth, and
experience a little bit of itourselves. This is season two,
where we'll focus on thepractice of relational
psychotherapy, and exploreconcepts and theories that

(00:33):
consider psychology from arelational lens. And please keep
in mind that this podcast doesnot constitute therapeutic
advice, but we might help youfind some.
And today, Listener, the topicthat we're going to discuss is
discussing suicidality, suicidalthoughts and impulses with your

(00:56):
therapist. And before we diveinto it, and before I introduce
the guest, I just want to saythat this is a touchy topic that
has a lot of big feelings aroundit and can really kind of freak
people out. We will be talkingabout suicide and the desire to
kill oneself on the episodetoday. So if that's something
that you're especially sensitiveto, like, be kind to yourself,

(01:19):
if that means skipping this one,skip it. And if that means
taking your time, taking abreak, do that. We don't want
anyone to be harmed by this. Wealso are talking about
conversations with yourtherapist around suicide in a
very particular way. And I'lllet our guests go into that a
little bit more. But we want toencourage folks to first and

(01:42):
foremost, have an open andtrusting relationship with your
therapist. That's the thing thatcomes first. And be aware that
different therapists responddifferently to things,
especially to sensitive topicslike harm to self or others. So
we'll get into that a little bitmore in this episode, but we
wanted to say those things uptop. Before we dive in. Having

(02:03):
said that, my guest on thepodcast today is Dr. Tyson
Bailey. Dr. Bailey is a BoardCertified Clinical psychologist
who is also a co-owner ofSpectrum Psychological
Associates. He's published andpresented on trauma, suicide and
psychological assessment. Andtoday, we are talking about

(02:24):
reasons to discuss suicidalthoughts in therapy early and
often. Dr. Bailey, welcome tothe podcast.

Tyson Bailey (02:33):
Thank you for having me.

And this is a big topic, I already gave my
disclaimer at the start. Andbefore we get into the topic at
hand, I just want to acknowledgethis is the longest conversation
I've had with another Tyson inmy entire life,

I think me as well.

With the exception of the conversation you and I
had leading up to this. SoListener, you're truly listening
to a historic document. So I'mglad to have you on the show. So
let's jump right into it. Um,suicide and talking to a
therapist about suicide. It's,as I mentioned, it's touchy -

(03:14):
people have big reactions to it.
Why do you think that is?

I think there's so much that goes into the reason
why that is. A lot of it isculture based, we have a lot of
judgments and thoughts aroundthis idea of harm to self,
whether that is suicidal harm toself or non suicidal - that
would be things like cutting,burning actions against the body
that are not typicallyassociated with an intent to

(03:46):
die. And most people -- the mostcommon reaction that my clients,
and other professionals that Italked to report when they
disclose this is that the thecomments, the behaviors are
shaming in nature, it's aneffort to get the person to be

(04:07):
quiet, most often rather thaninviting them into a
conversation. Unfortunately,I've had many folks who I've
worked with report that thatsame experience happens within
therapy. So it's not necessarilyjust an out there problem, it
can be within the therapy roomas well. And so I think that

(04:29):
influences a lot of how we thinkabout it and talk about it.
There's also this reallydominant idea that's seems
really sticky - it seems likeit's really pervasive - that if
we talk about it, that meanspeople will go do it. I think
there's also some hesitationthere because it's like, well,

(04:51):
if I bring it up, if I talkdirectly about it, then that
means that it increases thelikelihood. When in fact the
data set is that it doesn't,that when we talk more openly
and directly about these things,especially the sort of taboo
topic that suicide tends to beframed as that it actually

(05:11):
reduces the likelihood thatsomebody is going to engage in
violence to themselves in someway, shape or form. And so I
think it's really multifaceted,but there's definitely a very
large cultural component to thereasons that people don't feel

(05:32):
like they can talk about this.
Don't believe they can talkabout this. And hesitate to talk
about it across the board,whether it's outside of therapy
or in.

Yeah, yeah. So what I'm hearing you say is that
talking about suicide,culturally is sticky and
complex, because of thesecultural taboos that we have,
these societal taboos. Talkingabout doing any harm to yourself
is something that people havebig, big barriers around. And

(06:03):
most people's response is tosay, "Well, let's not talk about
that," even so far as to suggestin some way that if we talk
about it, then we risk peopledoing it more, is sort of a
pervasive myth that many peoplelive with. And it sounds like
that happens in therapy sessionsas well, that that taboo, those

(06:24):
myths, persist with therapistsas well. So clients have told
you and shared stories with you.
And I've heard similar storiesof talking to previous
therapists about suicide andgetting this reaction that kind
of shut down the conversation.
And you're advocating for adifferent way of doing things.

(06:46):
You say that research says thatnone of that's true, and
actually talking about it ismore helpful. What does the
research say about talking aboutsuicidal thoughts?

Well, so I will offer a point of clarity on what
I said earlier, because I thinkthis is important. Again, it's
talking about these thingswithin the context of a trusted
relationship. And that is socritical. There's lots of --
when people look for atherapist, very often they're
looking for a type of therapistor what we call a modality. So

(07:19):
they're looking for somebody whodoes cognitive behavioral
therapy, or dialectical behaviortherapy, or EMDR, because
they've heard that that helpedsomebody along the way. And the
techniques that guide our workare really important as
therapists, and they can be verymeaningful for the folks who
come in. However, the researchclearly shows that the

(07:40):
relationship is the mostimportant factor when it comes
to therapeutic change,regardless of modality, and
regardless of what bringssomebody into therapy. And so
the tough part is, forming thatrelationship can be hard,
especially if suicidal thoughtsare on your mind. And I think
that is an important piece torecognize. Because, again, if

(08:03):
you take that big risk to saysomething out loud, that parts
of your brain, parts of ourculture, say, "Nope, you you
don't get to say, that's notsupposed to be quiet." Or
"you're bad for having thosethoughts," you know, "how could
you," are some messages that arereally common for folks. And so

(08:24):
I think that that is a toughbalance to find, and to know,
"okay, when have I built enoughof a relationship to talk about
these things?"And then circling back to that,
to the research, the researchshows that when we can talk
about these things in a settingwhere there is a relationship

(08:46):
that has been built - where thatis a two way street as much as
therapy gets to be, right?
Because there are somedifferences as far as the
relationships that are built intherapy. That that is very often

(09:08):
a powerful and healingexperience. On the other side of
things can be very damaging, ifthat same shame -- if that
withdrawal happens. I think wecan all think about times in our
lives where we have disclosedsomething that we've debated and

(09:31):
debated and debated about, "do Isay this to the person" and
thinking that we really havethat trusting relationship and
then seeing the person backup.
And I'm not sure it matters whattopic that is, some probably
could be worse than others, butlike, that's such a tough
experience. And when the ideabehind therapy is "this is the

(09:53):
place that you're supposed to dothat' right? This is the place
you're supposed to talk aboutthe things that you don't
normally talk about that youhave that listening ear. And
then you get that withdrawalresponse. That can be really, I
mean, really hard up todevastating, I think for people.
And so that's the tough part is,is that we therapists are human

(10:19):
beings too, right? We bringourselves we bring our culture,
we bring all of that then to ourwork. And that means that we
could bring in our biases, thatmeans we can bring in previous
messages. And frankly, the ideaof suicide is scary for us

(10:39):
therapists, you know, in manyways. Some on the sort of legal
ethical realm, and very many onthe human being realm.

Yeah. So part of what, as you're talking, I'm
imagining a listener, who ismaybe on the fence, maybe they
do have suicidal thoughts. Andthey haven't talked to their
therapist about it. And maybethey're listening to this
episode to figure out like, "isthat a good idea? This guy
thinks I should, okay, why?" I'mkind of imagining that person in

(11:18):
my mind. And part of what I'mhearing you say is, yes, it's
important to be able to talkabout it, we hope in
psychotherapy, you're able totalk about pretty much anything
without the fear of being shamedin response. And I'm also
hearing you say that, like,there is a very real effort

(11:41):
that's required to build arelationship with a therapist
strong enough to have thesekinds of conversations. If
someone is in that position ofsaying, like, "this thing is, in
my mind, I don't know if Ishould talk to my therapist
about it". So I guess I've gottwo questions. The first is,

(12:02):
what are your reasons of "thisis why you really ought to get
there with somebody." And thenwhat kind of recommendations you
have for a person who's tryingto assess "Can I trust this
relationship? Is this the righttherapist to talk to? Or is this

(12:23):
the right time? Are we ready toget there yet?"

Sure, I think the "why," the primary why is that
silence around these thingsoften makes them grow bigger.
The cultural messages get inevery time you have a higher

(12:52):
profile suicide. AnthonyBourdain. Right. Robin Williams.
There are all sorts of messageson both sides, some messages are
compassionate, understanding,many messages are not - shaming
or derogatory. Robin Williams'daughter, for instance, did some

(13:16):
talking about some of themessages that she got about her
father, and how devastating thatwas for her to not only lose her
father, and to experience that.
And I think Anthony Bourdain isan interesting example. Because
as best I saw from the variousthings that were out there in
the media, that was a surprisethat people didn't know. And

(13:39):
they didn't really have any ideahow much he was struggling, even
people he was really close to.
And human beings arefundamentally relational. Our
brains are wired to -- if youthink about a baby coming into
the world, everything that babydoes is about being in
connection. Or taking a breakfrom that connection if they

(14:01):
need to avert gaze, that sort ofthing. And so, being able to
think about it from thatperspective, if we're going to
heal, if we're going to grow aspeople, it is most often through
a relationship in some way,shape, or form. And when we have

(14:23):
these things that we areculturally told to hide, or
withdrawal or pull back from,then we probably won't have the
opportunity to heal.
Unfortunately, many people havealso learned that human beings
are dangerous, that's theirfundamental message that life
has taught them. Either throughabuse or systemic issues, like

(14:43):
racism, I mean, you know,there's all sorts of issues that
contribute to those experiencesand that might influence how
likely or how much somebody'sthinking about death. And so If
we can come together in somesort of community - that might
be a community of two, thatmight be a larger community -

(15:04):
we're much more likely to getthrough those experiences, to
find a way through them, toheal, whatever that means for us
as individual people. And so Ithink that's the fundamental of
"why" is, is that if we aregoing to get through some of
these difficult experiences, itis going to be through human
connection most often. And Ithink that, if we have

(15:31):
difficulty finding that if thehuman beings are dangerous,
parts of our brain keep gettingactivated over and over and over
again, because we disclose, andthen somebody shames us or
whatever the process is, thenthat's going to be really
problematic in a variety ofways. So branching into the kind

(15:56):
of the, "what can we do," youknow, and how might we
determine?
I think it is, okay, and reallyhelpful idea to ask your

(16:16):
therapist directly. "If someonecomes in, and they have been
having thoughts like this, howdo you work with that? What is
your process?" "What sort ofthings would you do?" Many of
the clients who have sharedtheir stories with me, in

(16:38):
therapy - I work predominantlywith individuals who have
experienced lots and lots oftrauma - and people who have
experienced lots of trauma arevery adept at reading body
language, because they had tobe. It's a way to maintain
safety, it's a way to have somesense for what might be coming,
And so if you ask that question,and you notice your therapist

(17:05):
sort of having this very strongsomatic reaction,

if you see their body tensing up, if you can see
a look of consternation acrosstheir face flash for a moment,
or just their shoulders tighten,that could be enough to let you
know, this person is maybe notcomfortable enough in this
relationship themselves, to hearwhat you might be wanting to
bring them.

Or at least it's worth noticing and wondering
about, because, again, eventhough, people get really adept
at analyzing body language, it'sa very inexact thing that we do.
We want to be a little cautiouswith that, but it definitely is
one of those things that we canpay attention to. Not only it's

(17:49):
like, "what are they saying?"Right? For me, I distinctly know
the answer to that question, notonly because I've said it over
and over and over again, topeople who come into my office,
but because I also teach aboutthis. And so there's something
about that, that I have a verylaid out 'here is how I work

(18:12):
with them.' And one of thethings I often say, because a
lot of people their big fear isthe hospital, it's like, "I'm
gonna say this, and I'm gonnaget locked up." And that's
usually how I start, which isthat if you bring this in, my

(18:33):
first step is not to thehospital. Because it is scary.
I've had folks who have ended upin the hospital. And while it
can be necessary and helpful attimes, it can also be very
jarring, very scary, verydisruptive. And so I think that

(18:56):
that can be really helpful forsomebody to have a sense for
like, Okay, well, what are thesteps? If it's like, step one is
we'll talk about it a little bitand step two is the hospital. I
mean, I don't-- I couldn't tellyou exactly how many steps that
I have. But there-- I mean,there's at least... there's at

(19:17):
least 15, between like aninitial disclosure and
conversation, and where we mightbe considering the hospital. And
I have a very specific way ofthinking about that, like,
instead of just going straightto the hospital, go to the
parking lot, hang out in theparking lot, use your skills. If
that works, then leave. And sothere's even steps there where

(19:41):
it's really sort of cultivatedover time through lots of
supervision through lots oflistening to the folks who share
their stories with me about whatworks. So that we can walk
through those conversations,like we would any other
difficult conversation that wemight have. And I think that is

(20:01):
really important. And so askingdirectly, you know, "what's your
process look like?" I thinkpeople who are used to working
in this area will probably havesome sort of answer to that and

(20:23):
it also might give the person anopportunity to say, "look, you
know, this is a place that Ireally struggle." I have some
clients who, unfortunately, havehad a client who died by
suicide. And for them for aperiod of time, or maybe for the
rest of their career, they willsay outright, "I have lost

(20:45):
somebody in this way. And Idon't think I can show up for
you in the way that you need meto." I think that it starts to
open up a conversation, becausethat's how relationships are
built.

Right? Yeah. So there's a few things that you've
said that I want to recap andunderscore. The first is that,
in turn the like, brief briefanswer to the question, "Why
talk about it?" Sounds like itboils down, oversimplifying, but
it boils down to, 'becausehealing happens in relationship.
Because this kind of healinghappens in a relationship.'

(21:24):
Because 'sucking it up' is justswallowing poison. You need to
get it out, and you needsomeone's help dealing with it.

Well, as I like to say, to my clients, if sucking
it up, and those sorts of thingsworked - I'd be out of a job,
right? I mean, everybody triesthat first, you know, and it's a
reasonable thing to try. But Ithink if some of those
colloquial phrases that getsused, if they were sufficient

(21:53):
for most people to heal on theirown, right, self help books
would work much more effectivelythan they tend to and I would be
doing something else. And ifpeople stopped doing terrible
things to each other, I couldhandle that.

Yeah, sure. It'd be great to not have a job
because the world was a betterplace.

So I think that's an important piece of like-- and
because most of that is- thenpushes the person back toward
themselves instead ofinterrelationship,

And then the super short answer to the question,
like, "how do I evaluate whetheror not my therapist can handle
the conversation" is, ask them.
"How do you handle when peopletalk about suicide?" And gauge
their response. And it soundslike, you're-- what you have is
a very clear answer to thatquestion. And hopefully, most

(22:47):
people will have a clear answer,even if that clear answer is,
'you know, I'm not the besttherapist for someone who's
feeling suicidal.' In the sameway that if a if a client shows
up to me with OCD symptoms, thenI can tell them look, my
modality, the research is prettyclear, the way that I practice
is not super helpful for OCD.

(23:10):
And like, I haven't done thelearning to help you with these
symptoms. I can help you withthe existential stuff about OCD,
and like making sense of yourlife and things like that. But
if you want the symptoms to goaway, you should see someone
else. Talking about suicide, howdo you respond to someone who's
suicidal? A therapist responsemight be, I'm not very good at
that. And that doesn't mean thatyou're a bad client, doesn't

(23:32):
mean that there's somethingthat's just worse with you than
with someone else. It just meansthat that therapist isn't very
good at that, in the same waythat I'm not very good at
helping reduce OCD symptoms. Andmaybe if I did more intentional
work, that could change. Maybeif that therapist who says I'm
not very good with suicide, ifthey did more intentional work,
maybe that would change. Anddifferent therapists provide

(23:54):
different things. And it's okayto find someone who provides
what you need. And that's atheme that we come back to a lot
on the show.

Yeah. I mean, the match, as I said earlier, the
relationship is important. Andthe relationship is more
important than the technique.
And the way our techniqueinfluences our presence in the
room is part of therelationship. So again, it's
also not so clean that it'slike, oh, well, if we have a

(24:24):
relationship, then everythingwill be fine. We do need to be
doing things and some of thosethings might be having difficult
conversations. And I think thatis such a critical piece in the
same way that you might say,Well, do you work with this

(24:45):
issue, like OCD as an example?
And if the person says no, Idon't do that. I do a lot of
psychological assessments aswell to help people in a variety
of contexts, I am not welltrained in doing assessments for
autism. And so I don't do thosebecause I don't know enough

(25:09):
about them to do them well. Andthat's important for folks who
are seeking help to understandthat US therapists are ethically
mandated to maintain ourcompetence, and stay within our
competence. And it might be asituation where somebody says
that's beyond my competence insome way, shape or form.

It's not too dissimilar from going to a
doctor and saying, like, "I'vegot this weird thing with my
foot. What do I do doc?" Mostlike general practitioners -- I
guess that's what they callthem. In the UK, we call them
here at primary care physicians.
Most most people in generalpractice will like, at least
start looking into it with you.

(25:53):
But at some point, they'll say,if the problem is not simple,
they'll say, "You know what,this is beyond my scope. Let me
refer you to someone else." Andif you've gone to enough
doctors, then you know that eventhese like folks in like general
family practice have differentspecialties. There are some
doctors who will be like "footstuff, I don't do that go over
there." And then there are otherdoctors who will be like, "oh,

(26:15):
yeah, no, I can, I canabsolutely help with that." I
knew a pediatrician who, likewas just like a just a
pediatrician. That's just whathe did. And he was born with a
cleft lip and palate. And so ifthere was any kind of stuff
happening with like birthdefects around a child's face,

(26:37):
he was like, "I'll work withyou, becaus you will have to go
to fewer specialists."Similarly, psychotherapists, we
all have our own specialties,and they're usually not as
clearly identified. We don'thave the like suicide department
and the like, trauma departmentand the autism department, in

(26:57):
most of our clinics. So you kindof have to have the conversation
with your therapist, to figureout like, do my needs extend
beyond your specialty? And ifthat's true, again, I want to
underscore that's not becauseyour problems are super bad. It
means that what you're dealingwith requires someone with

(27:18):
different experience trainingand skill. And that's not
wrong, that's a conversationthat would be good to have

Yeah. I think usually when I have new clients
come in, that's how I start issaying, "we're going to have a
conversation, we're going to tryto figure out, can we work
together?" It's also myopportunity to make sure that I
have the skills necessary. And Ithink that takes some time too,

(27:51):
sometimes we figure it out inone session. Sometimes we
don't.That it's an ongoingprocess. And if we think about
it from that, forming arelationship perspective, then
it makes sense. Most folks whowe feel deeply connected with,
even if we had that initialspark, like that first meeting,

(28:16):
and we go, "oh, there'ssomething here;" I don't think
we really can know that, likeit's going to develop into what
it becomes. That's an importantstart, a lot of people will come
into my office and say, evenafter the first session, it's

(28:36):
like, "this is one of the firsttimes in my life I feel truly
listened to." And that'ssimultaneously like lovely to
sooner rather than later.
hear and also very sad, thatthat's the lived experience of

So the biggest theme that I'm picking up so
a lot of folks. So I thinkit's... having those
conversations is important, youknow, and asking those questions
is important.
far, is that like, it's a safety-- or maybe the better word of

(29:11):
security -- in a relationship.
That's the first thing you need.
You need to have the safety, thesecurity, the stability,
something in your relationshipwith your therapist, where --
and you can evaluate thatthrough just felt experience.
What does it feel like to sitwith this person? And by asking
directly, what do you deal withthese sorts of things? I'm

(29:32):
imagining now a listener, who,maybe they have suicidal
thoughts. Maybe they have afamily member who has suicidal
thoughts, and it's confusing tothem, and they just don't get
it. And I've heard this story anumber of times, like "I don't
know why I think this I justdo." Knowing that this is a
topic that you could teach anentire academic years worth of

(29:55):
courses on, is there- do youhave like a brief summary of
like when people come to youtalking about suicide? How do
you think about it? I'mimagining that client or a
family member whose anxiety isgoing up who's like, "Okay, I'm
thinking about this wholesuicide thing now, it doesn't
make sense. How do I even startthe conversation? This is so

(30:16):
irrational? Why do I feel thisway?"

One of the things that I very often cite with the
folks who I work with is thatthey did some anonymous survey
research. So these are questionswhere you don't have to be
identified. And 50% of peopleacknowledged experiencing
suicidal thoughts at some pointin their life. Now, we know even
on anonymous research, there arepeople who will say no, even

(30:42):
though they have, but even we'llsay for the sake of example,
that it's 50%.

And that's related to that shame piece,, cultural
taboo, that we have, even insideof our heads.

Absolutely, we call that internalized shame.
It's happening within us. And soit's like, okay, well, yes, I
have those thoughts. But even Ican't acknowledge that on this
piece of paper. But we'll sayfor the sake of argument that
it's 50%. What that means isthat it's literally a coin flip.

(31:16):
There's two of us sitting inthis room. It's a coin flip
whether one of us hasexperienced suicidal thoughts at
some point in our life. Whatthat tells me is it's common,
it's a really common experience.
The Whys are largelytheoretical. I think there's...
I mean, we again, we could behere for a while if we start to

(31:39):
get into all the whys, but Ithink the most important thing
is, is that it's actually prettycommon for those thoughts to
float through our head at somepoint. Not necessarily to take
action on them. And if we havethat thought, and then we start
saying, "Oh, my God, I'm aterrible human, because I have

(32:00):
had this thought" that actuallyincreases the likelihood that at
some point, we will maybe takethat thought into action or
behavior. Right, it becomes arisk for being the person who
comes up with a plan, or enactsa plan.

Right. It makes it makes, I think about I go back
to this analogy, often on thispodcast. Maybe it's because
Freud was some of the firstpsychology I read in undergrad,
but in Freud's Three Essays onSexuality, he talks about his
idea of repression, and he'sdescribing a lecture hall, or

(32:43):
someone's giving a lecture, andthere's someone who's like,
causing trouble, like making ascene. And Freud says, imagine
you throw that person out intothe hallway, and then they bang
on the doors, right? They're notquiet, they bang on the doors.
And then that essay, Freud saysthe answer is to let the man in
who's baning on the lecture hall- because of course it was a
man, because this was the 1890s.
But let them in in and hear himout. And then hopefully, after

(33:11):
he said, what he needs to say,he can go and join the audience
of the lecture. And that comesto my mind, because it sounds
like what you're describing isif the suicidal thought, which
at least half of all peoplewalking around, have had, is
the man causing trouble. Thenthrowing him out of the lecture

(33:33):
hall and ignoring him, as helike bangs and screams, makes it
more likely that he's just gonnaget louder and louder and
louder, and come up with a wayto burst back in and steal the
microphone. Like that part ofus, whatever it is, whether it's
suicide, or anxiety, or terror,or attraction, whatever it is,

(33:53):
if it gets stuffed, and hiddenin a closet, it doesn't stay
there. It just kind of buildsenergy. And part of what I'm
hearing you say is that talkingto someone about it gives that
energy somewhere to go, wheremaybe we can start to make sense
of it, or start to talk aboutit, or start to feel through it.

(34:16):
Whereas holding it in, leavingit stuffed just gives it room to
grow and grow and grow untilit's more powerful than the
other parts of a person's mind.

Yeah and at that point, it gets more sticky. And
eventually, it's much morelikely that shame comes in and
you know, we get thatcompounding effect of these
experiences.
And again, we see that insociety we see that in culture

(34:50):
we see that sort of all over theplace as far as the 'you are bad
you are wrong. You are broken,whatever the message is' for
having these thoughts as opposedto like, yeah, these thoughts
are actually pretty common. Andif we have those trusted others,

(35:13):
those connected relationships,we can very likely invite those
thoughts to take a seat in theauditorium rather than banging
on the doors.

Right. A lot of people, their big fear about
talking about this ishospitalization. Right? There's
memes about it. Right? There's acommon meme - point of view, you
were too honest with yourtherapist, and it's a
perspective picture of someonebeing wheeled on a gurney into a
hospital, right? That is like athing that Gen Z jokes about on

(35:45):
the internet, which like manythings people joke about the on
the internet is incredibly dark.
But you also said that you haveworked with people who did spend
some time being hospitalized. SoI'm in part thinking about our
listener who might have suicidalthoughts themselves. In my
experience, oftentimes, whensomething is full of shame, it

(36:08):
goes to extremes in someone'smind, right? "This part of me is
so shameful. Yeah, these guysare talking about it, like 50%
of people have it, but mine isworse than everyone's else. It's
so so so bad." So maybe toaddress the fear related there,
what is the situation where youwould think hospitalization is

(36:30):
the right move? And how, andwhat does that process look
like? What does it look like toactually be hospitalized? How
does that help?

So the criteria for hospitalization is means
plan and intent. Those are kindof the three primary components,
not just suicidal ideation, thatwon't do it. So it has to be
like "I'm thinking aboutsuicide. I know how I'm going to

(37:02):
do it. I'm going to do it atthis point. And I am set on that
decision."

So when we're hospitalizing someone suicidal
ideation, is like, you'redefinitely not gonna get
hospitalized if you don't havethat, at least not for suicidal
ideation, because it's notthere, right. There's other
reasons to get hospitalized. Butthat's outside of the scope of
this conversation. But that'snot sufficient. That's not
enough. The other three thingsthat are necessary- means,

(37:31):
which is a way to do it. So ifsomeone is saying, I'm feeling
suicidal, and they are like, "Idon't have-- I don't know how, I
don't know why. I just I justfeel that way." That's no means,
nothing's been identified forhow. If someone says, "I'm
feeling suicidal, and I have arope that I've tied into a

(37:55):
noose," that's a means. Okay, Ihave access to that. A plan.
Someone could have a rope thatthey tied into a noose. But then
if you as a therapist, ask them,"oh, what are you going to do
with that?" They say "I don'tknow. I just tied it, leave it
under my bed, look at it,sometimes." That's not really a

(38:15):
plan, like kind of -- kind ofimplies a plan, that examples
may be a little sketchy, but asopposed to someone saying, like,
"Well, I would wait untileveryone was asleep. And then
I'd go to a specific place, andthen hang it," right? That would
be a plan that has a process toit. And then there's intent. And

(38:36):
intent is if someone's sittingacross from their therapist, and
their therapist is saying like,"Okay, you have the suicidal
ideation, you have means - a wayto do it, you have a plan of how
you do it, are you going to doit?" If the person says, "No."

(38:56):
Then that's not intent. And ifthe person says, "yeah," that is
intent. There's shades ofcomplexity on all three of
those. It's really common tohear people think, say things
like, "I don't know," or "Ican't think of a reason not to.

(39:17):
But I really want to think of areason not to." These are all
things that I've heard before.
But what I'm hearing you say islike, those are the four
components you need, suicidalideation itself is not enough.
You need to have a way toseriously harm or kill yourself,
need to have a plan for how touse that way to seriously harm
or kill yourself. And you needto intend to follow through on

(39:38):
that plan.

And I think that there are so many ways to work
to interrupt that in therapywithin each of those points.
Again, unfortunately, that'swell beyond the scope of what
we've got here today. But that'sthe piece. One of the other
things that I look at because,as I've been saying throughout

(40:03):
this, it's about therelationship -- one of the big
pieces that I look at is howwilling is this person to
continue to work with me? Evenif there are a majority or all
of these things present? Right?
Is the person willing to stay ina relationship with me? Hmm. And
that is one of the things that Ithink is so important. Because

(40:24):
again, if I'm going to sit hereon this podcast and say how
important the relationship is,but it's not part of the factors
that we're considering, thenwe're immediately saying that
the relationship isn't actuallythat important. And again, that
can be a really big problem. Andso, it's that piece where a lot

(40:45):
of folks who share their storieswith me have had a plan for 40
years, 30 years, they're neverwithout one. And so I think that
it's that piece of like, howmuch can we hold on to that
relationship? And the tough partis, is even when it's handled

(41:12):
really well, even when it is amutual decision, there is still
a rupture in the therapeuticrelationship when
hospitalization comes to be partof things. Some more so than
others, depending on how thatgoes. An example of a
significant rupture... I havehad clients who've told me,

(41:38):
they've talked about thesethings, they've left their
therapists office, and thetherapist called the designated
mental health professionals,after the person left, without
any collaboration withoutletting him know that was going
to happen. That was a reallysignificant rupture.

And Listener, the designated mental health
professionals are the people who-- there's levels of complexity
here we could get into, butthere's essentially you can be
hospitalized voluntarily of yourown choice, you show up and you
say, "I don't think I can keepmyself safe" or whatever else.
And then you'll be in thehospital until you are safe. But

(42:17):
there's also, honestly, it'smore of a legal process than a
medical one. But there are waysof people saying "you can't keep
yourself safe. And we're goingto make you go to the hospital"
that designated mental healthprofessionals - at least in
Washington state, that's whatthey're called - are the folks
who make that process happen.
They're the ones who do it. Soin this example, a client left

(42:37):
their therapists office, and thetherapist was, for whatever
reason, very worried, veryoverwhelmed, who knows, called
those folks who then found thisperson, and this person was
hospitalized, potentially,against their will, but
definitely without aconversation with their
therapist, which was reallyharmful to their relationship.

And so I think that when that is done, when a
person can continue toparticipate in that process in
therapy, then I thinkhospitalization is less likely
and less needed. And I thinkthat the difficulty with

(43:22):
hospitalization, where I'veheard a lot of people report
fear, is from this very old ideaof the hospital, like, "I'm
going to end up there, and I'mgoing to end up there for
months." That did used tohappen. And frankly, many of
those folks had no businessbeing in the hospital, even
though they were there formonths. That does not happen

(43:45):
these days, in part because ofresources, in part because there
are so few places that providethis level of support. And so if
people end up in the hospital,they very often end up there
maybe long enough to bring onsome new skills, mostly long

(44:07):
enough to say, "Okay, I willagree that I am not going to
hurt myself." And very often atthat point, they are discharged
back to the care of theirtherapist, or hopefully to the
care of their therapist. Andlike I said, even when that
process is done really well,there are still -- there can be

(44:29):
breaks in the relationship thathave to be discussed that have
to be worked through to see ifwe can come back together. And I
think one of the pieces that'sso important to remember and
this is not just about thistopic today, but just in
relationships in general.
Ruptures are not a problem inrelationships - are not

(44:51):
inherently a problem inrelationships. In fact, the
people we are closest to veryoften are the people we've been
able to repair those ruptureswith. Because I don't think it's
possible to not have ruptures ina relationship if it spans for
any extended period of time.

Yeah. Not not an intimate and mutual one.

And therapy, I mean, I would love to say that I
have never had ruptures in, youknow, the course of my
therapeutic career. And that'sjust not true. And so even those
of us who are really welltrained in some of these things,
we're still humans, and thingsstill happen.

And I think that's especially relevant when talking
about this topic about suicide,because of the shame piece.
Because shame is very, veryadept, and skilled at telling
us, "oh, if there's a rupture,it's your fault. Oh, there was a
rupture in your relationshipwith your therapist, because you
were talking about suicide. Andit was overwhelming. And there

(45:59):
was this disruption in thiseasy, safe relationship you've
established? Well, that'sbecause you're bad. And so you
shouldn't talk to anybody aboutthis stuff, ever." That's an
easy conclusion to come to. Andwhat I'm hearing you say is
like, "No, the ruptures are apart of developing a deep
relationship with somebody. Andthat relationship is where the

(46:23):
healing happens."

ruptures are human. That's just true for all
sorts of reasons. They're human.
We experience them therapy is ahuman being relationship. That's
true. And therefore it's goingto happen because human. And we
may do a lot of things to try tomediate that. And they're going

(46:45):
to happen. And the hope is incoming back together after that,
that both individuals arewilling to think about their
responsibility, where-how didthey respond? How might they
respond differently, that sortof thing. And I think, like you

(47:05):
said, that's particularlyimportant when we're thinking
about these more difficulttopics like suicide. Where
there's so much messaging,including, I mean, the
fundamental message of shame is"I'm bad." You know, guilt is "I
did something bad." That iseasier to manage than I'm bad.

(47:27):
Full stop. And when you havealready had those messages, over
and over and over again, andthen they come more, it's like
-- there's not even a question.
It's like, oh, yeah, I'm bad.
That's truth. And I thinkthat's, like I said particularly

(47:48):
important in these conversationsto hold on to.

Yeah. And just as a side note, so much of what
we're talking about, around thistopic of suicide feels true to
so many elements of therapy.
We're applying them to thisconversation around suicide, and
like, a lot of other issues intherapy are unlikely to get you

(48:13):
hospitalized, some might. Butlike, a lot of the things we're
talking about, about workingthrough the ruptures, about
dealing with shame. These comeup so often in therapy about all
sorts of things, trauma andanxiety, and depression and
psychosis, and you name it. Ifthere's a symptom you're dealing
with and shame is involved. Alot of the stuff we're talking

(48:37):
about is irrelevant. So I justwanted to throw that out there
as a thought I was having.

I mean, I think one of the things that I think
about with that, , ourdiagnostic manual requires that
we call everything a disorder.
Right? And if you are disorderedincomes shame. And I think that
I mean, particularly when Ithink about trauma, and the
effects of trauma over thelifespan, and the ways that

(49:07):
people figure out how to copewith some of that stuff, are
actually pretty amazing. They'requite adaptive, when faced with
horror, on a regular basis. Andyet we live in a culture that
insists that we call that adisorder. And we live in a
culture that has an insuranceindustry that says if you don't

(49:31):
call something a disorder, wewill not pay for treatment. And
so I think that is again, awhole nother conversation but it
also reinforces the things thatpeople come into this office
with and to talk about thesethings. That it's like, "I must
be..." even some of the frame ofwhat's supposed to help is using

(49:58):
this language that mightreinforce this idea that "I'm
bad."

Yep. And again, could get cut out of this
conversation, but like,everything you're just talking
about, is super relevant totrans issues. Like, that is an
ongoing discussion in transspaces, how do we feel about
this category of genderdysphoria, because without that,
on my chart, I'm not gonna getthe treatment that I need to

(50:27):
feel well in my life, to confirmmy gender. But that diagnosis
inherently says this issomething that's broken about me
and I'm not broken, right?
That's like, that's the tensionthat a lot of trans people are
talking about. And folks whowork with trans people have to
deal with. I feel like, that'snot too dissimilar from the way

(50:52):
that our field treatedhomosexuality in the past as
well. And neurodiversityactually, as well, there's a lot
of categories of things that wetreat with this word "disorder."
And what I'm hearing you say islike, well, it could actually be
like, deeply human, and maybeeven a strength. But if we don't

(51:14):
call it a disorder, then you'renot gonna get your insurance
reimbursement.

And we know that many of those aspects of
identity - being trans, beingblack, that sort of thing. They
are... Many of thosenon-dominant or marginalized
identities increase our risk forsuicide. And, again, it's about

(51:46):
whole groups of people being outof connection with the ideas of
the dominant culture.

Yeah, gosh, I've been thinking recently a lot
about shame, in part, because alot of our episodes have really
centered around shame. Andthere's this question in the
field of like, what's the use ofshame that we kind of still
struggle with a little bit?
There's like, this sense amongpsychologists, like every
emotional experience that'scommon to humanity has some kind
of function, serves some kind ofuse, right? So what's good about

(52:14):
it? And guilt, right, we haveguilt, like it sucks, but like,
it can teach us like, "Oh, whenI do that thing, I feel bad, I
shouldn't do that thing. Andalso, that thing I feel bad
about might hurt people, so Iwon't do it." So I've been
playing with the idea thatprobably exists out there in the
world. And I'm just not citingit correctly. That maybe part of
the reason we have such a hardtime figuring out what to do

(52:36):
with shame, is because it ismore of a sociological reality
than an inter psychic one. It'sa group identity thing. It's a
belonging thing. And this fieldthat we practice in is so like,
hyper individual, that it's hardfor us to make sense of these,
like social realities. And likeyou're talking about the

(53:00):
relationship a lot. I work forRelational Psych, there's this
movement towards acknowledginghow relational human beings are
and thinking about us. You know,somebody said recently, it might
be better to think aboutindividual people as nodes of a
network more than like anindividual, concrete, complete
person. Which is a complicatedidea. Don't follow that too far.

(53:20):
But like, I'm wondering if partof the trickiness and stickiness
of shame is that its function ison a level that goes beyond one
mind, and maybe goes beyond twominds. And so as psychology
related folks get a little bitlike, oh, no, I don't want to go
there. And Listener, myundergrad was in sociology. So

(53:43):
Emile Durkheim is a bigsociology guy, and his first
major texts was Suicide. That'swhat it was called. And that's
what he studied. And he proved,from the sociologists
perspective, that this superindividual act, what could be
more personal than the choice totry to kill oneself? And his

(54:06):
research was, well, actually,there's so many social factors
that impact it. So there'ssomething in here, I don't have
a full theory about it. Butthere's something in here about
shame, and about society andabout belonging and about group
and about identity. That and allthis stuff is really important,

(54:28):
and really relevant to thequestion of suicide, of people
feeling suicidal.

From an evolutionary psychology
perspective, they believe thatshame --in tribal times. If we
weren't in the group, we weredead. Right? If we weren't able
to stay within the group, thenit was very difficult, if not
impossible to survive on yourown. And so they believe shame

(54:58):
developed as a way to maintaingroup cohesion. If the group
says no, no, we don't-- thatdoesn't work for u. We as a
culture, say child abuse is bad,child abuse is no good, that
doesn't work for us. And soshame from that perspective, if

(55:18):
you have the urge to engage inchild abuse, the regulatory
function of shame, is to say,oh, no, that doesn't work.
That's not something -- thatcould get me kicked out of the
group. As we have expanded, andthere's so many groups, and I

(55:39):
mean, in comes the internet, andour ability to connect with
humans all over the world. If weget kicked out of a group, now,
it is less destructive than itwas back then. We are less in
danger than it was back then.
And then I think we get into thehow shame has been used, right?
To try to regulate people. Butthat I think, is really

(56:01):
fascinating to think about froma sort of where we came from
perspective, that that's how webelieve that and why shame has
been around is that it'ssupposed to remind us if we're
going against the morals andvalues of the group that we're
in, then shame is supposed tohave a regulatory function to
remind us not to do whateverthat behavior is.

Yeah. And from what I remember, from my
undergrad sociology classes, thelike, short version of dark
times conclusion about suicidewas that when people are
isolated, they're more likely tocommit suicide. So that's--

Still true.

Make sense.
Especially with how all thisinteracts with shame, if you
don't belong anywhere, then itseems like if that's your
experience, I don't belonganywhere, then that sounds to me
like a really fertile ground forshame to grow. And everything
that follows from that,including suicide.

There is a book that I read parts of recently
for the presentation that I doon suicide assessment, and it's
called rethinking suicide. I'mgonna forget the author's name
at this moment,

Check the show notes Listener.

But it is... the fundamental conclusion is... are
things like, we need to buildcities that normalized
connections with other humanbeings. We need to make sure
that everybody has clean waterand sufficient food. It's all

(57:38):
about connection. And not onlyconnection at the individual
level, but at the communitylevel. And the central tenant of
the book is that if we keepframing this as an individual
problem, rather than a societallevel problem, then we're never

(57:58):
going to get anywhere. And Ithink military suicides are a
great example of this. They arestill a significant problem.
Still.

Even though we've been talking about it pretty
publicly, and there's beenpublic health initiatives for
decades now?

I think so. And most of the vets will report
that part of the reason is theyfeel disconnected from society,
they come back, and they, evenwithin their family system, war
has had such a profound effect.
Or the other things that happenwithin the military that aren't

(58:38):
about combat, and they impactsomebody's ability to feel in
connection.And that increasessomebody's likelihood. I always
tell my clients therapy doesn'tactually have the monopoly on
helping people. I think we havea particular skill set and

(59:00):
people can get help in all sortsof ways. And I think when it
comes to stuff like this, thingslike suicide, that help is going
to come through a relationship.
Whether it's with a therapist,whether it's with a good friend,
whether it's with I mean,anybody who can offer that
relationship and show up for theperson, that's where the healing

(59:23):
will come.

Yeah, I mean, I hear from - I work with a lot of
adolescents - I've heard peoplewho felt like they found that
sense of belonging through the kpop group, BTS, and I've worked
with people who found that senseof belonging that helped them
through a time where suicide wasreally high - suicidal ideation
-- Thinking about suicide,that's what that means Listener
-- it was really high, becauseof their church and their faith

(59:46):
community, their relationshipwith God. But it's a
relationship. It's not just anappreciation. It's not a distant
thing. It's not even really athought. It's a felt experience
of belonging. So I'm trying toimagine a good way to wrap this
up, and the thing that I'mimagining is, there's sort of
two people in my mind who I canimagine listening to this

(01:00:09):
episode, maybe need to taketheir time, maybe certain
sections of it, they're like,Okay, you guys, like skip ahead
other sections. I like takingnotes. And these two folks are
one, somebody who is a client inpsychotherapy, or considering
becoming a client inpsychotherapy, who has a lot of
suicidal thoughts, and doesn'tknow how to talk to anyone about

(01:00:29):
them, or if they should. So I'mcurious if you would have final
thoughts for that person, we'vebeen talking to that person a
lot, directly and indirectly,this episode. But I'm also
thinking about people who lovesomeone with a lot of suicidal
thoughts, parents, partners,friends, you know somebody who

(01:00:49):
that's part of their story,that's part of their life, or
you suspect it might be. Do youhave any words of peace or
recommendation or for someonewho might be in that position
who's listening to this, andmaybe suicide is not something
that they have on their mindvery often, but they love folks
who do. So those are kind of thetwo parting words.

Tyson Bailey (01:01:20):
In many ways, my thoughts would be the same for
both of these folks. Rememberthat a huge part of talking is
listening. And really listening,not listening to respond, not
listening to offer a solution,but really listening and saying,

(01:01:43):
"I hear you." Remembering to askboth in therapy and as a as a
loved one, "what do you needfrom a right now?" Do you need a
solution? I've got these ideas,right? Do you need me to listen?

(01:02:04):
And if the person says, I needyou to listen, then do that. I
think that that is somethingagain, that is such an important
part of connection and largelymissing in many of the
interactions and many of theconversations that we have. So

(01:02:25):
yes, it is risky. And in somesituations more so than others.
But if we want to help people toget through tough things, it is
through connection andlistening, and relationship,
that that is most likely tohappen. And I've talked with

(01:02:53):
parents or loved ones, orsomebody at a variety of points
throughout my career, and it'slike, they all want to do
something, and that'sunderstandable. And yet, when
you slow your brain down, it'slike, oh, wait, I haven't really
been listening to this person, Ihaven't really been sort of

(01:03:13):
paying attention to what they'reasking for. And again, that's
understandable, it can be ascary experience, it can be a
scary experience, for those ofus who are trained to navigate
these conversations. But havingthat conversation, keeping in
mind the importance of therelationship and that
connection, and how much thatmakes a difference in getting

(01:03:41):
through the circumstances. Andasking those questions, working
to find those people who you canbe in relationship with, that
you can have those opendiscussions with. I think that

(01:04:04):
part is really important sort ofacross the board. As we think
about how -- to go back to RobinWilliams, I remember we saw him
one time, and he told a jokeabout this group of younger
humans who were sitting in acircle at a coffee shop, tapping

(01:04:24):
away on their phones. And one ofthem stopped and looked up the
other one and said, "I know,"and then goes back to her phone,
so they're literally liketexting each other. And I'm just
like, Wow, what an example ofdisconnection, right? That is
like, through electronic device,and so I think about, like, how
does that influence us? And howdo we create connection within

(01:04:48):
that context, given that ourelectronic devices are all quite
a consistent part of our livesat this point?

Tyson Conner (01:04:55):
Listener. That's probably how you're accessing
this very audio recording. Yeah,what are the what I'm hearing
you say is like, connect,connect. And like, that's risky.
And I hope also keeping in mindthat rupture and repair stuff we
were talking about, that likewhen you connect with someone

(01:05:16):
deeply when you when you talkand when you listen well, there
will be rupture. And thatdoesn't mean it's over, that
means it's working. That meansyou're being human together. So
a little bit of encouragement inthe midst of all that. That
sounds like the closest thing toan experiment that we could
recommend to someone based offof this conversation today.

(01:05:37):
Unless you have anything else tosuggest.

I mean, it's important to recognize, like I
said, it is a risky experiment.
It really is. And I think it'simportant to say that, I don't
offer this experiment lightly.
And that it is really, um, itmay take a bit, it may take a
few versions of that experimentto find that person or people

(01:06:03):
hopefully, that you can talk to.
And it's, you know, when youfind those people, when you find
those points of connection,really amazing things can
happen. And then some not so funstuff can happen. And then, I
mean, that's sort of the cycle.
And so I think it's alsoimportant that we recognize

(01:06:24):
that, even within the context oftherapy, and even with somebody
who might be a good match, theremay be some rough patches, and
most likely will be some roughpatches.

Yep. Okay, in terms of further learning,
you've already mentioned thatone book, there'll be a link to
that in the show notes, you'vealready sent me so many
resources at the end of thetrainings that you offer, folks.
some links to some of thosethings will also be in the show
notes Listener. If there'ssomeone who's listening to this
conversation, and is feelinglike there's something in this

(01:06:58):
that they're really interestedin, that really intrigues them,
whether it's about the shamestuff we've been talking about,
or about suicide, and how tothink about it, are there any
other resources that you'd pointthem towards to like, keep
exploring this and keep thinkingabout it?

A lot of the things that I sent, you have
both a phone number component,and an online component. So
there's some of the suicideresources that are built for
people who are experiencingthese things have helplines that
you can call those folks areexcellently trained. I have

(01:07:35):
really been impressed by andlarge. And I always tell my
clients, if you don't seem toclick with the person right
away, hang up, call back, you'llget somebody different, you
know, and that's fine. And so Ithink that there are also things
that are built-- websites thatare built that have lots of

(01:07:56):
information on them. And so Ithink that there are good
resources out there that arepeople you can talk to, are
places that you can gatherinformation. And I think those
are probably the most effectiveplaces to start to look at. I

(01:08:21):
think those are the things thatprimarily come to mind.

Yeah, absolutely.
And, again, Listener, those willbe in the show notes. I'm also
going to kind of sneakily throwin a plug for some of the
trainings that you do, becausewe do have other therapists who
listen to this. So if you're aprofessional, if you're not a
therapist, then this nextsection will probably be less
relevant to you. But I mean,there's a part of me that

(01:08:45):
imagines someone could listen tothis podcast and then say, hey,
therapist of mine, would youmind listening to this podcast
so we can try to talk aboutsuicide together? So would you
be willing to just say what kindof offerings that you have for
other therapists, you do asuicide assessment and
prevention training. That iscompliant with the continuing

(01:09:09):
education requirements inWashington State?

Yeah, it's approved by the Department of
Health. And it's called InvitingDeath to Tea. And it's trauma
informed relational assessmentof chronic suicidal ideation of
thinking about how do you bepresent in this work? And then I
have a variety of othertrainings that I do, some on

(01:09:35):
violence risk assessments, someon trauma informed care, trauma
informed assessments. So there'sa variety of things that I do,
but the the one most relevant tothis talk is the suicide
assessment.

And where can people find that if they're
interested?

I have page on my website. I just launched my new
website and so I think it Isseminars and training is what I
ended up calling that page. Andso anything that I'm offering or
possible offerings are listed onthat site.

Lovely, there will also definitely be links to that
in the show notes. Tyson, thankyou for coming on the show. This
was a very, very heavy topic totalk about. And I feel like my
own thinking about these thingshas opened up and I hope that

(01:10:34):
that's true for our listeners aswell. So I really appreciate
your time.

Thank you again for having me and I hope the
same. I think the more we talkopenly about these things, the
more we will find healingsolutions, and that is really
important.

Special thanks to Dr. Tyson Bailey, Dr. Bailey can
be found at his websiteDrTysonBailey.com, where you
will find a calendar of Dr.
Bailey's upcoming trainings andseminars, link in the show
notes. Also in the show notes,you'll find our further learning
for this episode, Dr. Bailey hasprovided a list of resources
around suicide prevention,including specific helplines and

(01:11:17):
websites for veterans andLGBTQIA+ individuals. The
Relational Psych Podcast is aproduction of Relational Psych,
a mental health clinic providingdepth oriented psychotherapy and
psychological testing in personin Seattle and virtually
throughout Washington state. Ifyou're interested in
psychotherapy or psychologicaltesting for yourself or a family

(01:11:37):
member, links to our contactinformation are in the show
notes. If you are apsychotherapist and would like
to be a guest on the show or alistener with a suggestion for
someone you'd like us tointerview, you can contact me at
podcast@RelationalPsych.group.
The Relational Psych podcast ishosted and produced by me, Tyson
Conner. Sam Claney is ourexecutive producer with

(01:11:59):
technical support by Ally Rayeand the team at VirtualAlly.
Carly Claney is our CEO. Ourmusic is by Ben Lewis. We love
you, buddy.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Breaking the Silence: The Importance of Discussing Suicidal Thoughts Openly with Dr. Tyson Bailey, PsyD, ABPP

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

All Episodes

Breaking the Silence: The Importance of Discussing Suicidal Thoughts Openly with Dr. Tyson Bailey, PsyD, ABPP

Stuff You Should Know