September 19, 2023 • 62 mins
In the first episode of Season 2, Tyson sits down with his supervisor and mentor, Rachel Newcombe, to discuss how people teach and learn. They talk about disruptions, the similarities between psychoanalysis and teaching, and what this podcast is trying to do.
Rachel Newcombe is a psychoanalyst, supervisor and teacher in the San Juan Islands, Seattle, Washington, and New York City. Her writing has appeared in Contemporary Psychoanalysis, The Psychoanalytic Review, The Rumpus, 7X7LA, Anti-Heroin Chic, Ellipsis Zine, and elsewhere.
Rachel’s twitter and instagram handle is @rachelnewcombe8
An example of her hybrid writing can be found here: https://www.ellipsiszine.com/memories-of-ambivalence-by-rachel-newcombe/
Further Learning:
The International Forum for Psychoanalytic Education: www.ifpe.org
Between the Covers Podcast: https://tinhouse.com/podcasts/
Between Us: a Psychotherapy Podcast: https://soundcloud.com/betweenuspodcast
Pedagogy of the Oppressed by Paulo Freire: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/72657.Pedagogy_of_the_Oppressed
Psychoanalysis at the Crossroads by Fred Busch: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/121105239-psychoanalysis-at-the-crossroads
When Teachers Face Themselves by Arthur Jersild: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1796385.When_Teachers_Face_Themselves
Can the Monster Speak? By Paul Preciado: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/57030264-can-the-monster-speak-a-report-to-an-academy-of-psychoanalysts
© Relational Psych 2023
W: www.relationalpsych.group
E: hello@relationalpsych.group
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tyson Conner (00:11):
Do you want to learn about psychological growth
without sorting through thejargon? You're in the right
place. This is the RelationalPsych podcast. I'm your host
licensed therapist, TysonConner. On this show, we learn
about the processes and theoriesbehind personal growth and
experience a little bit of itourselves. This is season two,
where we'll focus on thepractice of relational
psychotherapy, and exploreconcepts and theories that
(00:33):
consider psychology from arelational lens. And please keep
in mind that this podcast doesnot constitute therapeutic
advice, but we might help youfind some.
And today, my guest on thepodcast is Rachel Newcombe,
formerly of New York City, iscurrently a psychoanalyst,
(00:54):
supervisor and teacher in theSan Juan Islands, Seattle,
Washington and New York City. Asa teacher she practices a
radical pedagogy and thrives ina room of the disobedient, who
refuse indoctrination. Shelearns with and from students
who dare to question and makelearning their own. She began
her teaching career at age six.
Her first class consisted ofapproximately seven stuffed
(01:15):
animals gathered on her bed fora make believe story. Her
writing has appeared inContemporary Psychoanalysis, The
Psychoanalytic Review, TheTumpus, 7x7 LA, Anti-Heroine
Chic, #Elipsis. zine andelsewhere. Rachel, welcome to
the podcast.
Rachel Newcombe (01:34):
Thank you, round two. So we were talking
for a good 20 minutes about veryinteresting stuff. And then you
realized the - whatever you callit - wan't on
Tyson Conner (01:45):
Yep.
Rachel Newcombe (01:46):
So let's just pick up or do you want to give a
synopsis? We don't have to startall over.
Tyson Conner (01:52):
Our conversation today is about this question of
"how do people learn? And whatdoes it mean to teach?"
Rachel Newcombe (02:00):
And what about disruptions? Right?
Tyson Conner (02:04):
And they come up a lot. And one came up for us
today. And we were talking aboutthis, Listener, largely in the
context of like, how does apsychotherapist continue to stay
sharp, really, and to improveand to grow and develop? The
practice of psychotherapy isn'ta skill that you like, learn and
(02:26):
then have, and then it's set.
It's more of an art. It'ssomething that requires regular
practice, and regular upkeep andregular discipline to like, stay
on top of it. Especially whenyou practice from this
psychoanalytic lens andapproach. We don't use manuals
in psychoanalysis. And so ourlearning is not based off of
(02:47):
reading a manual and figuringout how it works. And so our
conversation was around just howwe think about teaching, and how
we think about how we learn. Wetalked about how there was some
research that Fred Bush, whowrote a book that you brought,
Rachel Newcombe (03:09):
The Psychoanalysis at the
Crossroads, and how when heasked people, "when you think
about your own psychoanalytictraining, what are the things
that are most memorable?"And themajority the time people say, 1.
their own analysis, 2.
supervision, And the last one isalways 3. the classroom. Which
(03:31):
made me interested and westarted talking about why do we
think it's that way? And I said,I think the teaching needs to
resemble more of thepsychoanalytic process that
we're actually doing. And thatthat maybe will change why it's
always third.
Tyson Conner (03:53):
Right? And we were talking about the idea that in
any situation of learning, theteacher and student are, ideally
ought to be learning together.
That's sort of what you'reputting forward. In contrast to
this model of like, the teacherhas all the data that they just
like, dump into the studentsmind. It's more of an experience
(04:15):
where both people learntogether. Right? And you just
talked about this idea ofsubmitting to learning
together--
Rachel Newcombe (04:27):
Submitting in a good way.
Tyson Conner (04:28):
Yes, yes.
Submitting too -- We talkedabout regression. And the idea
that people regress when theylearn, and Listener, regression
means going backwards is what itmeans. And in this context,
people regress when learningbecause when you learn, you have
(04:49):
to start from a place of notknowing something.
Rachel Newcombe (04:53):
Exactly. And not knowing inevitably brings up
anxiety.
Tyson Conner (04:58):
Mm hmm and there's lots of ways that people try to
protect themselves from thatanxiety.
Rachel Newcombe (05:02):
So to understand, people are going to
protect themselves all differentways. Defend what they don't
know, even if they're notconscious, they're doing it.
They could be constantlyquestioning the teacher who they
experienced as the authorityfigure. They could write down
everything the teacher says andjust assume everything is right.
(05:24):
They could -- anything from ourvery first experiences with
learning arise every time we arein the classroom, which is why
if we think about the classroom,it's really a psychoanalytic
classroom. There are going to betransferences to the teacher,
the teacher is going to havetransferences to the student.
(05:45):
And all of that makes for a bigcomplicated situation. Which is
why when things are disruptive,it doesn't mean something bad's
happening. It means that'seducation.
Tyson Conner (05:57):
Right. Yeah, I'm seeing the parallels as you're
talking between like atherapeutic context and an
educational context
Rachel Newcombe (06:06):
Intertwined
Tyson Conner (06:07):
For the Listener, to define transference briefly,
the idea of transference isanytime you enter into a new
relationship, you're bringing inyour experiences and memories of
previous relationships. And thatcan get kind of complicated,
especially as thoserelationships start to become
(06:27):
more significant. So if a goodexample of it that's like,
really simple, is if you had ateacher who in your elementary
school, who was mean, and verystrict and very harsh, and this
teacher was a man with grayhair, and a big bushy mustache.
(06:51):
And if you then go to see yourtherapist, and you talk to him
on the phone, and then you walkinto his office. And you see
he's a man with a big, bushymustache and gray hair. And he
reminds you of your teacher fromelementary school, then you
might expect this person to beharsh and mean with you, just
(07:14):
based off of how they look. Mosttransference - well, I don't
know if it's fair to say most -a good deal of transference
isn't based off of how peoplelook, but rather what they mean
to you.
Rachel Newcombe (07:29):
How they look might evoke something.
Tyson Conner (07:32):
Yes. And when Rachel's talking about how
students will have transferenceto the teacher, and the teacher
will have transference to thestudents, that transference can
help kind of set us up - notconsciously, we're not thinking
about it - but it sets us up totreat one another in a certain
way. And that way might not bethe best way for everyone --
Rachel Newcombe (07:52):
Or for the teacher to ignore what might be
going on that's disruptive, andnot use it as an opportunity for
further learning, I think is adisservice to everybody. As
opposed to maybe "Oh, this isthe acting up student or this
student always says blah, blah,blah." That can be addressed,
(08:13):
that can be incorporated intowhatever a teacher is teaching.
I mean, if we're psychoanalyticteachers, why would we ignore
the process in the classroom?
Tyson Conner (08:25):
Right? Yeah. So here's a question. This is a
very, like, high level question.
But like -- Okay, I'm gonnaframe it a little bit -- in
therapy, we have this idea oflike, psychoeducation; that
sometimes when you're workingwith a client, you will teach
them a psychological concept, oryou will teach them about how
(08:46):
certain things about a person'smind works. And that that's like
a part of therapy. But most oftherapy isn't teaching. At least
that's how we talk about it andthink about it. But what I'm
hearing you describe is thatmaybe all therapy is
psychoeducation, and maybe alleducation is kind of
(09:08):
therapeutic.
Rachel Newcombe (09:15):
I like that.
Anna Freud, you know, these two- Freud and Melanie Klein - both
interested in how childrenlearn. I would hope that all
learning can have apsychoanalytic element to it.
You know, when I was in graduateschool for teaching and
curriculum, I read this book byArthur Jersild "When Teachers
(09:39):
Face Themselves," and then Iwrote my end paper on that. And
then not even knowing how manyyears later, I would go to
psychoanalytic training, hisname came up, and I thought, "so
for decades, I have beeninterested in the same topic.
When teachers face themselves,and when analysts face
(10:02):
themselves." So our themesfollow us. So rather than fight
them just go with it.
Tyson Conner (10:09):
Right. And it sounds like you're recommending
that that mindset is the onethat we approach to classrooms,
therapy. And people for a longtime have talked about that idea
in therapy, right? There's thatold saying, "it's all grist for
the mill." The first time Iheard that I was sleep deprived
in a classroom, and I raised myhand and I said, "I don't know
(10:29):
what that means." And theteacher said., uhhhhhh, and he
didn't have an answer, so then Iwent and Googled it later.
Rachel Newcombe (10:37):
So the teacher used the phrase, but didn't know
what it meant?
Tyson Conner (10:40):
Apparently. I think it threw him off that I
raised my hand and said, "Pleasedefine that for me."
Rachel Newcombe (10:44):
So just using that, what do you make of the
teacher going, "uhhhhh?" Whatwas that like for you in that
moment?
Tyson Conner (10:53):
I kind of felt like I was being a little silly.
I felt like I was asking aquestion that like, wasn't what
we were here to answer.
Rachel Newcombe (11:05):
Alright, just go with that. What may you have
been picking up on that youasked that question. You're the
student. And you did ask thequestion. What are the questions
in the classroom? So not to putyou on the spot, but I don't
think it's just being silly.
What may you have beenresponding to? Because isn't
that considered a cliche?
Tyson Conner (11:28):
Yeah, grist for the mill. Yeah, kind of a
cliche. And also, like, therewas an assumption that we all
knew what that meant. And I waslike, but I don't.
Rachel Newcombe (11:37):
Alright, so what? So there's the assumption
everybody would know what thatmeant. You didn't. You raised
your hand and asked, and itwasn't addressed. And then you
didn't feel comfortable - notright or wrong - to wonder why
the teacher was using a phrasethat they couldn't explain. Now,
(11:59):
so what do you - as you and Iare talking about it - what do
you make of that?
Tyson Conner (12:04):
I find it interesting that that's the
example that came up. Becausethere's an echo of that in what
I do on this podcast, right?
Where like, even in thisrecording, you've used phrases
like regression andtransference. And then I've made
sure to go back and define them.
Because in my head, there's aversion of a Listener who isn't
(12:25):
familiar with the language, whodoesn't know the cliches, right?
Rachel Newcombe (12:31):
I know that your thing is anti-jargon. So do
you feel my using regression ortransference; do you think maybe
I wasent being sensitive, orjust assuming everybody would
know what theIy meant?
Tyson Conner (12:47):
I don't because you're just in a room with me. I
think. And I have the Listenerin my mind. And I don't expect
you to have the listener in yourmind. That's why I want to
define these things.
Rachel Newcombe (12:59):
No, I appreciate that.
Tyson Conner (13:03):
I'm in a lot of contexts. And like, part of the
reason I do this podcast, isbecause I'm in a lot of
contexts, having a lot ofconversations with people about
stuff that I find reallyinteresting and important. And
because we all have this sharedlanguage, and the shared
culture, and the sharedunderstanding of what these
things mean, we can have thesereally interesting
(13:24):
conversations, that if someonewho wasn't familiar with this
stuff were overhearing us, itwould sound like an episode of
Star Trek.
Rachel Newcombe (13:32):
So it's a reminder. And that's a reminder
for me, too, sometimes, to beaware if I use a word - because
we are doing a podcast - youstop me if that comes up.
Tyson Conner (13:44):
Yeah. And that's part of my role as the host. And
I think part of part of why thatmemory feels relevant to this is
that in that moment, I was beinga little playful, right? Like I
was being a little impish, alittle bit like, "Hey, slow
down. I want to catch up here."And I think that my teacher was
(14:05):
a little thrown off. And therewas something of a conflict
there that put us kind of like,against one another a little
bit. I had slowed him down, I'dstopped him and stumped him and
asked him a question he couldn'tanswer. And it kind of threw off
his groove in his rhythm. Andone of my hopes for this podcast
(14:26):
is that it could be a situationwhere if I slow someone down and
ask them a question, and getthem to redefine something, or
go back over something, it's notthrowing off the rhythm, it is
Rachel Newcombe (14:37):
But you said you kind of stumped the teacher.
the rhythm.
So in a way you entered theclassroom, the teacher uses a
cliche, you basically call theteacher out on using a cliche,
because even that word "tostump." So you're having a
(14:58):
reaction to the teacher, the onewho's in authority. And you're--
Tyson Conner (15:05):
We've had many conversations about my
relationship with authority. Oh,I didn't say it on this
recording, Listener. I seeRachel every week for individual
supervision.
Rachel Newcombe (15:16):
Even though you're licensed
Tyson Conner (15:17):
Even though I'm licensed.
Rachel Newcombe (15:19):
We agreed to call it supervision.
Tyson Conner (15:21):
We did. And in our conversations, my relationship
to authority comes up a lot. AndI haven't thought about the ways
that this podcast is actually, Ithink, a creative way for me to
play with my relationship toauthority; my own as well.
Because authority can often meaninaccessibility. And one of my
(15:43):
hopes is that theseconversations that we have on
the show would be accessible topeople, maybe helpful. Well,
that was fun.
Rachel Newcombe (15:55):
So I was just pointing out that even though it
sounds like that was a teachingmoment, a learning moment that
you use, what happens when theteacher is stumped? Is the
teacher curious about astudent's question? That is an
interaction and that I - youknow, I fixated on the word
(16:16):
stump - you know, you stump theteacher. So does that mean maybe
the student knows more, if notas much as the teacher? And or
what is even that dynamic? Whoknows more? Like what is
knowledge?
Tyson Conner (16:33):
Yeah. So any psychotherapist, anyone
practicing psychotherapy isrequired by the state to
continue their education. Andthe state has ways that they set
that up and evaluate that andthings like that. And within the
world of psychotherapy,especially psychoanalytic
psychotherapy, orpsychoanalysis, there is a long
(16:55):
tradition of continuing to studyand learn and grow.
Rachel Newcombe (16:59):
Because one wants to, because a person wants
to, because is it's exciting.
Tyson Conner (17:07):
Yeah, it's exciting. And it's fun. And
human beings appear to me to bepretty infinitely complex. And
so, it seems like the sort ofthing, interacting with other
human beings and trying to helpone another - whatever that
means - is, I think somethingthat you would never exhaust
(17:28):
learning about; that totallyinfinite well of learning. And
the questions coming to my mindare, "why do people choose to
learn the things they choose tolearn? And how do people pick
good places and people to learnfrom? What does a good teacher
(17:52):
look like?" I feel like most ofthe folks who would be listening
to this podcast are probablymore in positions of seeking out
teachers, they're more studentsthan they are teachers. Maybe we
can talk about how a teacherpicks good students too
Rachel Newcombe (18:05):
Oh boy, what's the so called good student?
Tyson Conner (18:09):
I have no idea
Rachel Newcombe (18:12):
How teachers and students sometimes are just
thrown together. As you know,more years in, there might be
study groups. So we might picksomebody because they're
interested -- Well, you'rereading a really interesting
book now. Right? Karen Maroda'sbook.
Tyson Conner (18:30):
Yeah, The Analysts Vulnerability,
Rachel Newcombe (18:32):
So people might gravitate towards somebody who
has literature they want tolearn or wants to learn a
theory. But in the classroom, ortraditional schooling or
psychoanalytic training, we'rekind of thrown together.
Tyson Conner (18:46):
Yeah, we are kind of tossed together, right.
There's not a lot of picking andchoosing that happens in those
contexts.
Rachel Newcombe (18:53):
And my d I don't know if it, I think maybe
it was the part where Tyson andI talked before we realized the
recording wasn't working -- Butmy real interest is in what
happens in a classroom that'sdisruptive, that I feel is an
inevitable part of learning. Andcan the teacher understand it
(19:16):
that way? And can studentsunderstand it that way? So it
doesn't have to be seen asseparate from whatever it is
they're learning. That is anaspect of what it means to learn
and what it means to teach.
Tyson Conner (19:31):
Hmm. Yeah, and that sounds like a very, very
different way of approachingteaching and learning. When I
think about the, you know, theschools that I went to, if there
was something that wasdisruptive to class, then it was
something that we tried to getpast as quick as possible. If
(19:52):
there was a student who wasbeing disruptive in class then
that student was asked to leave.
It was considered a distractfrom what we were trying to get
up to.
Rachel Newcombe (20:02):
it technically is a distraction. And there are
levels of how distracting it canbe. But it's also a distraction
that can be addressed. Firstwith the teacher wondering, why
might this be happening now?
What is the distracted studentwanting? See, again, we teacher
and student bring theirunconscious process to the
(20:24):
classroom. They don't check itat the door. So we have a
classroom full of how manystudents there are, all those
transferences. We have theteacher's transferences. So it's
a big, exciting soup going on.
Tyson Conner (20:43):
Yeah. So what makes a good teacher?
Rachel Newcombe (20:51):
It depends what the student needs. It depends,
because you and I could be inthe same classroom together and
afterwards, we say, "Oh, we lovethat teacher." We might love the
teacher for different reasons.
Two other students could walkout and say, "Oh, my God, can
you believe that teacher? Theydidn't even ask any questions."
(21:12):
So it's whatever the student'slearning needs are. Sometimes a
student doesn't know what theywant to learn until they're
exposed to it. So the firstthing that comes to mind is a
good teacher knows their subjectmatter. But it's also open to
(21:33):
possibilities of what mighthappen in the classroom. Because
when you enter a classroom,anything is possible.
Tyson Conner (21:45):
And it feels complicated, if only because in
a classroom, there are so manyother people involved. Thinking
about teaching with apsychoanalytical mind is tricky
for me, in part because all ofmy training and study and
(22:07):
experience really inpsychoanalytic settings, with
some exemptions, have been oneon one. Most of my experience
where someone was beingpsychoanalytic was either with a
therapist or with a supervisor,or with a colleague.
Rachel Newcombe (22:25):
But grad school, did you touch on some of
that? Did you have teachers whotouched on some of it?
Tyson Conner (22:30):
Absolutely. Yeah.
And I don't know if Iexperienced someone teaching
this content in apsychoanalytical way. If you're
in a classroom of 70 students,is it even possible to keep all
of these unconscious elements inmind at the same time? Is that
(22:52):
doable?
Rachel Newcombe (22:54):
I don't even know. To know they all exist, I
think is important. Because somestudents won't say anything. I
mean, who knows? It seems likelike an impossible task. But
just to be aware that they allenter the classroom that way.
That's why I taught that courseand love to teach it. The
Unconscious Goes to \School.
Because it's not separate from astudent. It's within a student.
(23:21):
And often, a teacher will teach.
And they love the so called, forlack of a better word, the
"smart students." "Oh, wow, theyknow so many ideas." But that's
just one type of student. Whatabout maybe the struggling
(23:42):
student? What about the studentthat doesn't know? What about
the student who's afraid to askquestions? So learning happens
all over the place.
Tyson Conner (23:52):
So I'm curious to shift the conversation a little
bit to talking aboutsupervision. In part because, my
guess is most of our listenerswill find themselves in
situations where they arelearning and teaching that look
a lot more like supervision thanlike a standard classroom.
(24:14):
Supervision, Listener, is whenyou have a usually newer, less
experienced or less experttherapist who goes to someone
with more experience orexpertise or specialty in a
certain way of practicing ordealing with a certain
population, and they meet one onone and they talk about the
(24:38):
work. They talk about what thesupervisee is doing with their
clients or patients and thesupervisor helps facilitate the
supervisees professionaldevelopment. That's a very, very
vague way of speaking about it,but I think that there are a lot
(25:00):
of situations in the world wherepeople find themselves in these
kinds of dynamics, especially inworkplaces, but also within
families. And, you know, withinreligious communities, there's
this kind of mentoring dynamicthat seems common to allow.
Rachel Newcombe (25:16):
And tricky in our profession is what happens
when the supervisee is alsogoing to be evaluated. Whether
it's psychoanalytic training ortwo year program or whatever.
How does that affect thedynamic?
Tyson Conner (25:34):
And that's really common in workplaces. Like most
managers who are mentoring theirdirect reports, are also in
charge of filling out theirannual review and saying, "Does
this person deserve a raise ornot?" Which makes that mentoring
relationship complicated.
Rachel Newcombe (25:55):
Well, let's use us. Let's talk about our
process. So you were alreadylicensed. So somehow we found
each other, unconsciously. Anddo you remember the first or
(26:16):
second session, what you felt?
Tyson Conner (26:19):
Yeah. So I - we spoke on the phone first. And I
remember immediately afterwards,feeling like, "oh, this will be
very interesting." I remember myworry. Because I did have a
worry going into it.
Rachel Newcombe (26:37):
What was your worry?
Tyson Conner (26:38):
My worry was that I would leave the conversation,
feeling like, either, you hadn'tshown up b had just like, asked
me a bunch of questions. Andlike, let me talk and then just
kind of like, been kind of ablank slate. Which is an
experience that I've had withother psychoanalytic mentors in
(27:01):
the past, especially in thatfirst encounter, just kind of
feeling like they're trying tostay, like really neutral; which
is a technique and is a thingthat some people respond really
positively to, but freaks meout. So I don't like it. So I
was a little worried you'd dothat, you didn't do that. And
the other thing I was worriedabout is that, from the
(27:21):
beginning, you would have a veryclear agenda of what a good
therapist look like, and thatyou would try to turn me into
that thing. Because I've hadthat experience.
Rachel Newcombe (27:32):
That somebody else's agenda - what it means to
be a good therapist, and thatthey were going to turn you into
that?
Tyson Conner (27:41):
And I think part of why that one freaks me out so
much -- the first one that likeblank slate, no engagement, that
is just a style that I don'trespond well to. And that's a
very common analytic style. Andsome people find it very
helpful. And I don't for me. Theother though, I think that
(28:02):
scared me as a concept. BecauseI think that's how we approach a
lot of training and education. Ithink a lot of training and
education does have thisunspoken, unconscious, largely
an assumption that there's athere's a good, whatever, good
therapist, good soldier, a gooddoctor, a good student, and
(28:25):
we're trying to turn you intothat thing.
Rachel Newcombe (28:28):
I'm aware, as you're talking now that I never
quite articulated it like this.
I think my agenda, if there isone is to turn the student or
the supervisee into a rigorouslearner.
Tyson Conner (28:45):
How do you do that?
Rachel Newcombe (28:46):
Well, how have -- well you're certainly a
rigorous learner. How haveyou... How is that?
Tyson Conner (28:48):
Yeah, well, it's interesting, because so when I
first reached out to you, andsaid, "Do you have room for
another supervisee right now, Iwas just practicing
(29:11):
psychotherapy part time, and Iwasn't working in this clinic
yet. And that's what we talkedabout was the psychotherapy I
was practicing. And then alittle over a year ago,
actually, I said to you at onepoint, "how do you even
supervise? How do you do this?
This seems impossible. Thisseems so complicated." And then
(29:33):
two weeks later, my life hadchanged very rapidly. And I was
in conversation with Dr. Claneyat this clinic, to come on staff
here as a supervisor. And so ourrelationship kind of shifted in
what we talked about. We weretalking about the practice of
(29:57):
psychotherapy, and a lot of theways that you engage got me to
wonder, why do I do what I do?
And to be curious about whatother people have said about why
they do what they do. And thenaround the time that I was
preparing to be in supervision,supervising people, our
(30:17):
conversations shifted to "Okay.
So now, how do you teach? How doyou supervise this intimate
relationship of an analytictherapy? It's deep and it's
intense. And the way that youchoose to interact with your
client is like, for a reason,and it's important to think
about it." How is supervisingany different? That's kind of
(30:41):
the first question that westarted with?
Rachel Newcombe (30:47):
Like even you developing this podcast, so I'm
sitting here, I'm in the processwith you? And then I'm thinking,
"Uh-Oh, what if there's thatlistener that's thinking, 'oh,
what does this have to do withteaching or something?'" Then I
realized, just as I say that,that somebody listening to how
you and I engage will get asense of why we do what we do.
(31:11):
Because we're doing it. And it'snot always pin-pointable. We're
open to each other. You asked mequestions, I asked you
questions. You do something,sometimes when I ask why that
choice at that moment, you sharethings with how you supervise,
and I asked the same kind ofquestions. Do you feel
(31:36):
comfortable if --Well, have youconfronted me? Not in an
obnoxious way?
Tyson Conner (31:41):
Yeah. There was that one time about the gender
and sexuality thing.
Rachel Newcombe (31:49):
Oh, boy.
Totally called me out, which isgood. Actually an important
point.
Tyson Conner (31:55):
Yeah. So to frame this, we're talking about, like,
how conflict comes intolearning? And especially
learning in relationships thatare active and close. This isn't
the kind of -- I don't know howyou can apply this to learning
from reading a book. But maybeyou could? I don't know. So
(32:19):
Rachel, and I had been workingtogether for about a year at
that point. And I was talkingabout a situation where I made
some comment about somebody whomaybe wanted a therapist who was
(32:39):
of a political affiliation, whowas --
Rachel Newcombe (32:42):
A sexual orientation and a gender
orientation. And you presentedthe case. And -- I'm blacking
out. So what did I say?
Tyson Conner (32:53):
I said, Well, I think that this person is
looking for a therapist who'slike this, this and this. And I
listed three things. And yourresponse was, "and you are none
of those things." And myimmediate thought was, "well,
actually, I'm two of thosethings."
Rachel Newcombe (33:08):
Right. And you told me. So what let you know
that you could tell me that?
Tyson Conner (33:16):
I think it's this theme that's been coming up in
this conversation, the wholetime of teaching environments,
requiring this surrender tolearning, which is an openness
to being wrong, an openness tonot knowing, which is an open --
Rachel Newcombe (33:36):
And assumptions. And we bring
assumptions to learning; our ownframework, or --
Tyson Conner (33:42):
I think part of the reason I felt comfortable
enough in that moment, saying,like, "actually, you're wrong, I
have two have these identities,"was because throughout our
process together, you'd askedme, "Well, how do you know that
about somebody? Did you askthem? You're making an
assumption there."
Rachel Newcombe (33:59):
And I was doing the same damn thing.
Tyson Conner (34:01):
Right. And that experience, and our previous
conversations helped me to getthis sense that 'oh, you're not
saying you've made an assumptionthere. tisk tisk bad job,
Tyson.' You're saying, 'Oh,look, you've made an assumption
there, human beings certainlymake an awful lot of
assumptions, don't we? And if weput in a lot of effort, we can
(34:22):
try to make fewer, and then wemight learn some more.'
Rachel Newcombe (34:25):
And you being able to say that, to me, totally
opened up I make assumptions.
Not that I thought I was aboveit, but that's the unconscious
piece. Why the heck did I makethat assumption? And again, you
say what is learning? You and Iboth had learning in that
moment. You brought it to me.
(34:47):
And how interesting, then youand I went on to teach a seminar
about it? We used that as ateaching moment. You and I
didn't plan for that.
Tyson Conner (35:02):
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Rachel Newcombe (35:05):
So the unexpected encounters; you say
what makes a good teacher? Beingopen to the unexpected
encounters.
Tyson Conner (35:13):
Right. Being open to the unexpected encounters.
The thing I can imagine alistener who's hearing this
thinking, like, I'm imagining alistener who is maybe a middle
manager, right? Someone who isin a position where they have
people who report to them,people who they're in charge of
(35:35):
mentoring, of helping to trainand to develop, but also has
people that they are mentored byand that they report to and are
beholden to, in some way.
Imagining someone in thatposition. And I'm imagining that
kind of person wondering, "okay,this stuff sounds really
(35:56):
interesting." Being open to whathappens, learning from and
learning with and learningtogether. This sounds like, to
do this means you have to bereally comfortable with not
having answers. How do you dothat? Because not having answers
(36:19):
is really scary.
Rachel Newcombe (36:23):
Well, not having answers or being open to
new questions. Because I havesome answers. Like, you could
ask me what my favorite booksare. I can give you an answer.
You can ask me questions. Soyou're talking about a specific
not having an answer. Like, sowhat do you do? What does the
(36:46):
teacher do when asked a questionthey don't have the answer for?
I would hope I say "I don'tknow." And I would be curious
about the students question.
"How did you even think of thatquestion, because now I'm
thinking of that question." Sothe teacher to be open to
(37:07):
questions that they didn'tanticipate, which is again,
anything when you walk in aclassroom.
Tyson Conner (37:15):
Yeah. It feels like this way of teaching
requires a kind of security inthe teacher.
Rachel Newcombe (37:25):
And tolerance for anxiety. Because if you go
in knowing anything can happen,it's both terrifying. And it's
also quite freakin thrilling.
Something's always had beenmade. And that's the site of
learning. That's what I feel isthe site of learning.
Tyson Conner (37:48):
This space where things are being made?
Mm hmm. I'mthinking about -- we've made
Rachel Newcombe (37:49):
Yes. Because there's knowledge, I'd love to
teach any one of these booksthat I brought. So there's
knowledge when we read a booktogether. But the reason we're
in a classroom is becauseknowledge is also created. What
if ideas that you didn't thinkof, I didn't think of the, other
students didin't think of, thencome together from us sharing
(38:12):
our minds together?
this connection betweenpsychoanalysis and teaching. And
you've made the argument thatlike, at the end of the day,
these two processes are built onthe same foundation--
(38:35):
Well, with oneexception, not at the end of the
day, all day long.
Tyson Conner (38:38):
All day long, right. That the process is the
same.
Rachel Newcombe (38:47):
I just have to say, and you know, me, I don't
-- Freud said that threeimpossible professions are
psychoanalysis, government, andeducation. People often remember
the first one psychoanalysis"the impossible profession," but
he also included education.
Tyson Conner (39:06):
Yeah, it's impossible.
Rachel Newcombe (39:09):
And necessarily so, but that's the thrilling
part two, it's the ongoingnessof it, the excitement of it.
Tyson Conner (39:17):
And I imagine that part of what was meant by
impossible there, is that youcan't be given a list of
instructions of how to teach andthen teach perfectly every time.
Rachel Newcombe (39:31):
Nor is that the goal, same as that's not the
goal with being a therapist oran analyst. It's showing up with
the unexpected. And that doesn'tmean -- and you know, my bias --
I think, to teach you have to bea rigorous learner always
ongoing. You know, for me, a petpeeve is taking a course,
(39:53):
reading materials aside, and theteacher standing up there and
asking for me the dreadedquestion, "what did you think of
reading?" Of all questions,which is why when I teach, I
often like to talk about how toread an article, how to engage
with an article, how to engagewith ideas that you don't know.
(40:14):
You know, it's like getting inthere. What do you do when you
don't know something? Do yousay, "Oh, this is too hard?"
What do you do when something'stoo hard? Those are all elements
of reading. What do you do witha student who shows up to class,
and you have a sense thatthey're not doing the reading? I
mean, again, there are so manydifferent things to manage. And
(40:35):
when you think about ourprofession, there are no
guidelines. And I don't know ifI think there should be, but I
think it's worth consideringthat nobody's required to take a
class on teaching in order toteach. It feels disrespectful to
teachers; that 'anybody couldteach' as if it's not a
profession or not an art.
Tyson Conner (40:57):
Yeah. And I noticed one of the books you
brought, I believe The Pedagogyof the Oppressed?
Unknown (41:04):
love a chain gallop?
Tyson Conner (41:06):
And is that the book where it talks about the
traditional model of teachingwhere it's, the teacher has the
content, and just like puts it--
Rachel Newcombe (41:18):
That's the Pedagogy of the Oppressed by
Paulo Freire. That he calls thebanking system of education,
right?
Tyson Conner (41:25):
The banking system requirement to study how to
teach, is because if you havethat banking system in mind,
it's just a transfer. Like,"what do you mean, I have to
learn how to do it? I have theinformation, I'm just gonna give
it to you. And then you'll haveit." And that's how you teach.
Rachel Newcombe (41:44):
Even with something like math, which is
more formulaic. Doesn't have tobe the banking system, because
not everybody will come to aclassroom with the same math
skills, right?
Tyson Conner (41:56):
So part of what I'm hearing you say is for a
Listener who's hearing this, ormight be wondering, "okay, how
do I be a better teacher?"There's a lot of these ideas
about openness to not knowingand openness to learning with,
and allowing things that youmight consider as a disruption
to actually be a part of thelearning process. To pay
attention to the unconsciousthat you bring as a teacher as
(42:20):
well as what your students mightbe bringing.
Rachel Newcombe (42:22):
Well, what I could do is, I can certainly,
after the podcast, send you someof my favorite books that
address this topic. Because someplace to start is to read about
people who are loving thistopic, who have encountered this
topic, who have spent theirlife, you know, feeling
(42:43):
passionate about this topic. Andthat's a place to start. When I
was a fourth grade teacher inNew York at a private school, I
spent one summer - there waslike a six week course, with
this teacher, her name is LucyCalkins - and she wrote a book
called something like, LessonsFrom My Students. And she was
(43:07):
teaching writing - this as aTeacher's College, Columbia -
she said, "We can teach studentswriting and grammar and
everything from their owncreative writing." Like you
don't have to take out a grammarbook and say, "Okay, now we're
going to learn about actionverbs." You can take out your
own creative writing to thestudent. "Okay, look, what are
(43:30):
the action words?" Everything'sintegrated. So I see that as
being the psychoanalyst job as ateacher too; everything is in
there in the classroom.
Tyson Conner (43:43):
Yeah, but the thing that Listeners will most
recognize your name from is howoften I referenced the idea that
all theory is autobiography.
Because that's an idea that Ifirst heard from you. And it
sounds like. part of what I'mhearing you say is, you know,
learning is building theory. Andso use the students
(44:04):
autobiography to do it--
Rachel Newcombe (44:09):
Absolutely. And that all of us, you know, if you
put 10 analysts in the room, themost fascinating question might
be, why do you love the theorythat you love, right? And
inevitably, we all have verypersonal attachments to how we
wind up with what we love.
Tyson Conner (44:30):
Part of what I love about that idea, is how it
leaves room for us all to bevery deeply human. And one of
the sticky points of the idea isthat it doesn't let us say, "my
theory is just inherentlybetter." And there's a tendency
(44:52):
to, I think that we want to beable to do that sometimes.
Because if it's just a betterthe we're safe. If it's just
better then we know, and we'reokay. And "look, this is the
right way to do it because it'sbest."
Rachel Newcombe (45:07):
And after - speaking of autobiography, -
after almost three decades inthe field, practicing a certain
way, interpersonalpsychoanalysis, I am being
supervised by a client. And howhumbling to really understand
comparative theory. And I feelso happy that I'm not learning
(45:32):
from somebody who is saying "Myway's the right way." Like
sharing "this is the way Iorganize my thinking," and it's
almost like I wish everybody inthe field after a certain point,
could try learning a differenttheory.
Tyson Conner (45:49):
This is making me think about one of my teachers
in grad school. I went to gradschool that was also a seminary.
And so I was required to takethese theology classes. And at
the time, I had just gotten intoa new spiritual tradition and
changed churches, I like fullyjoined it and like, did a whole
ceremony and everything. And wewere encouraged in this theology
(46:10):
class, to join a reading groupwhere they were studying a
theology different from ourtradition. And I went, and I
talked to the teacher, and Isaid, "Listen, I know we've been
encouraged to study somethingoutside of our tradition. But I
just joined this one, like I amless than a year into practicing
this kind of religion." And whatshe said was, "she thinks about
(46:36):
someone's theology like agarden. And when you first plant
your garden, you want high wallsaround it, so that things don't
get in and trample over it sothat seeds don't blow in and get
planted in your soil. But onceyour garden's grown up a little
bit, and your plants are sturdy,you tear down those walls, so
(46:56):
that you can cross pollinatewith the other gardens. That
like there's a developmentalprocess to it, and that it's
okay to find something that youidentify with. And you say, '
like this, this works for me.'And to dive into it." And what
I'm hearing you say is, you hopethat at some point, you're also
(47:18):
able to dive out of it intothose other traditions.
Rachel Newcombe (47:22):
To see why this garden is so pretty, or that
gardenis so pretty even, youknow, if it's different than
mine. And, Hmm, maybe I do wantto plant a petunia in my tulip
garden. Maybe there's room forthat.
Tyson Conner (47:38):
Yeah.
Rachel Newcombe (47:39):
Well, you have certainly turned me on to books
and podcasts that you love. Andthe one that stands out the
most. And I told you, I thenreferred it to my colleagues.
Can the Monster Speak? I nevereven heard of it. But that's
kind of cool. Is that a crosspollination? Yeah, I think so. I
(48:02):
mean, and then I pollinated mycolleagues.
Tyson Conner (48:05):
So there's one thing we haven't talked about
that I want us to if we havetime is the role of independent
learning in all of this. Becausewe've been talking about
learning and teaching in groupsettings, in individual
settings. But again, thinkingabout the Listener,
(48:26):
realistically, like this podcastis an individual learning
experience. It's a littleexperiential, because you get to
listen in on the conversation --
Rachel Newcombe (48:34):
But somebody who finds this, maybe on purpose
or accidentally, hopefully,it'll spark something, or, 'Oh,
what are those books Rachelmentioned? Or what's that book,
Tyson? Can The Monster Speak?'They might go and look. And that
will take them down, you know,into their own huge Botanical
Gardens, right. But soindependent learning, you asked
(48:58):
what makes a good teacher - Ialways had this fantasy,
psychoanalytic training isusually four year., I always had
this fantasy that somewhere inthere, there would be a fifth
year. And a teacher and advisorwould say, "you are to spend one
year in the library. Any libraryor several libraries of your
(49:20):
choice. Don't go with a plan.
Just begin reading. You couldstart with Anna Freud. You could
start with Florenzi, anybody.
You could go to the fictionsection." I think to encourage
the rigor of what it means toread. So I think that helps an
independent learner or podcastbut that you have to constantly
(49:44):
be saying, "What am I doing tolearn?" And not be a chore.
Tyson Conner (49:52):
That's where my mind was. I've spoken to a lot
of people who will have booksthat they read that are like
work That's like, 'I'm readingthis because it's good for me to
learn it. So I will read it.'And there's something about
that, that choreness of it, thatfeels -- I don't know, I don't
(50:14):
have many words for it, but itfeels like it doesn't quite fit
the theory that we're workingwith right now.
Rachel Newcombe (50:20):
Well, my colleague, Larry Green, we're co
presidents of IFPE, orinternational forum for
psychoanalytic education. Andjust a few days ago, he said to
me, "Oh, Rachel, you have toread her chapter on empathy."
And I said, "Oh, I know somebodywho's reading that book right
now. You!" So how interesting,two people who I like are
(50:43):
reading the same book. And justbeing open to that also. I like
her earlier writings, haven'tread - but now the two of you
have read it, and I absolutelyam going to read it or listen to
it.
Tyson Conner (50:55):
Yeah. Karen Morada's The Analyst
Vulnerability
Rachel Newcombe (50:59):
And knowing you and I were going to do a
podcast. I read her article, Ithink from 1998. 'Is
Psychoanalysis Unteachable?'
Tyson Conner (51:10):
Oh, shoot is it?
Rachel Newcombe (51:15):
Who knows? But I loved the article. I read hers
and Thomas Augden's 'On TeachingPsychoanalysis.' They were good
companion pieces. But what didyou mean by independent
learning?
Tyson Conner (51:30):
I'm thinking about how, for many people, the idea
of learning on your own issomething that's taken on as a
chore, or as an assignment. Orthere's the sense that, 'well,
if I'm going to be anintellectual person in the
world, then I need to read thisbook that they talked about on
NPR,' or something. And Iimagine you might have thoughts
about other compasses, otherways of guiding you through your
(51:54):
independent learning.
Rachel Newcombe (51:55):
One question, what interests you?
Tyson Conner (51:58):
Oh, there you go.
Rachel Newcombe (51:59):
Yeah. What interests you?
Tyson Conner (52:01):
What if the answer is young adult fiction?
Rachel Newcombe (52:02):
Then go there.
After this, you know, ElliottBay bookstore, it was their 50th
anniversary yesterday. So I'mgoing up there and the most
exciting thing is I don't have aplan. Sometimes I go looking for
a book. And just to go and seewhat draws you. You know, that's
why that whole fantasy of a yearin the library - See what draws
you, you know, see where youunconsciously follow your
(52:26):
interests. There are certainthings you must read, like if
you go to a formalpsychotherapy, but after that,
there's the whole thing thatDeborah Britain calls 'after
education.' And there's a Germanword, which I couldn't even
begin to pronounce, means 'aftereducation,' the education after
(52:46):
one's formal education, and shefeels that education inevitably
fails us. Not because it's bad,the impossibilities of learning.
So there's always the ongoingeducation.
Tyson Conner (53:04):
Yeah. So for a Listener who's feeling like
'okay, this is all veryinteresting. And it sounds like
it's important to do thisindependent learning, this
independent reading andstudying,' what I'm hearing you
say is follow what interestsyou. So then, how do I know - if
I'm a listener - how do I knowif what I'm reading is just
(53:26):
entertainment?
Rachel Newcombe (53:27):
Do they have to be separate? I told you when we
were outside last night, I wentto see Hedwig and the Angry
Inch. You take your interest inlearning and it could happen
anywhere. Like why do they haveto be separate? I don't know if
that's an answer. I found myselfbeing curious about the
(53:49):
playwright, about Berlin, abouteverything.
Tyson Conner (53:53):
So then learning is an experience that's defined
by curiosity.
Rachel Newcombe (54:01):
The individual's curiosity.
Tyson Conner (54:03):
So if you're reading a book, and you find
yourself curious about it, thenthere's learning. And it doesn't
matter if that book is Winniethe Pooh, or Michael Pollan's
most recent book, or whateverelse people are talking about
around the watercooler.
Rachel Newcombe (54:24):
this year at the IFPE conference, the theme
of the conference is -but is itpsychoanalytic? And one of the
people who's getting theDistinguished Educator Award is
not an analyst, but a podcasternamed David Naiman, who has this
wonderful literary podcastcalled Between the Covers. David
(54:50):
prepares and asks people heinterviews some of the most
psychoanalytic questions I haveever heard. So then there's the
question is, could something bepsychoanalytic and not be in a
psychoanalytic classroom? Sothen it, you know, following
your thing, ifsomething isentertaining, of course, you're
(55:12):
learning from it. You learn fromeverything. So what haven't we
Tyson Conner (55:21):
I think the only thing on my mind -- so in terms
addressed?
of further learning from this,you have a stack of books. Links
will be in the show notesListener, go to the show notes.
And you can find links to thesebooks. Also, you know, whatever
else, podcasts, YouTubevideos...
Rachel Newcombe (55:42):
Then I'll mention the ones that I
mentioned, IFPE, David Naimens.
podcast, John Totten here inSeattle has a wonderful
podcast... What was I going tosay? Oh, so when you thought
about the podcast, you wereinterviewing me, did you have
ideas what it would come out?
Like what it would look like? Orhow do you feel now as we're
(56:04):
winding towards the end?
Tyson Conner (56:05):
I've been thinking a lot about what this podcast is
recently, and what its gonna bebecause this is going to be part
of our second season. Our firstseason, we really just trying to
find our feet. Our secondseason, we're trying to be more
intentional. And this is aboutwhat I expected. There's a part
(56:27):
of me that feels anxious thatthis isn't accessible enough.
And when I listened back to it,I imagine I might feel
differently. I think that's justan anxiety that's with me in
this podcast for this season,especially. My hope is that
(56:47):
people are surprised by thisconversation. Because I think
people are used to conversationsabout learning and education and
development, personal,professional, intellectual
development as being kind oflike, "well, first this and then
this, and then this and thenthis."
Rachel Newcombe (57:04):
Like linear.
You mean?
Tyson Conner (57:05):
Yeah. And my hope is that people's experience of
listening to this conversationmight be one where there was
kind of a real refusal to leaninto the linearity of it, and an
openness to what came up and tothe disruptions that we dealt
with with the recording.
Rachel Newcombe (57:26):
And I told you, I was thinking, "I'm going to be
asked about education. I don'tknow anything about education.
What if he asked me a question Idon't know the answer to? What
if, what if the listener says,'well, she got transference
wrong?'" So anxieties never end.
It's just living with them. Butanxieties for me come up when
(57:46):
somebody goes, "Oh is she anexpert?" No I'm just somebody
who loves this topic.
Tyson Conner (57:56):
And selfishly, one of the reasons why I love
podcasts as a genre, is becauseit's a chance for people who
love a topic to just talk aboutit, and you can just listen, and
I love that. So I hope thatlisteners feel that way about
this episode.
Rachel Newcombe (58:11):
And I like how present you are --
Tyson Conner (58:13):
I love--
Rachel Newcombe (58:15):
as a podcaster.
Tyson Conner (58:17):
Thank you. I try to be. I have been fortunate in
that every episode we've doneI've been very interested in. I
think the one thing that I'd becurious to hear - we try to talk
to people about further learningoptions. But also, when we can
(58:39):
we try to offer an experiment,which is just the word that we
use for 'something that alistener could do to try to get
some experience of whateverwe've talked about.'
Rachel Newcombe (58:50):
Okay, so you're wanting me to have an
experiment? No matter what townyou are in, please go to an
independent bookstore. Without abook in mind, let yourself
(59:12):
wander for an hour, whether it'sthe cooking section, the zine,
section, the biography, and justlet yourself wander. And if you
can afford it, buy a book.
Tyson Conner (59:25):
That is a great experiment. Well, it helps that
that's what you're up to latertoday.
Rachel Newcombe (59:31):
Not looking for a specific book, and if you
can't make it to an independentbookstore, do the same thing in
a library.
Tyson Conner (59:38):
Right? Yeah. I love that. And I think part of
why I love it is because I thinkif there's an oversimplification
of our conversation today, itwould probably boil down to
something like, "let yourinterest and your ability to be
curious and not know guide theprocess."And like, that's what
(01:00:02):
you're recommending.
Rachel Newcombe (01:00:03):
And that's what you just synopsized perfectly.
Tyson Conner (01:00:06):
Well, let's wrap it up. Thank you so much for
coming in and for your extratime, especially with the
disruption.
Rachel Newcombe (01:00:12):
No worries.
Tyson Conner (01:00:13):
Special thanks to Rachel Newcombe for coming on
the podcast today, Rachel'stwitter and instagram handle is
@RachelNewcombe8, link in theshow notes. An example of some
of her hybrid writing can befound at the ellipsis zine
online. A link to that is alsoin the show notes. If this
conversation interested you orengaged you in any way,
(01:00:33):
hopefully, it won't surprise youto hear that there are an awful
lot of options for furtherlearning. Also in the show notes
today. The one thing I wouldlove to highlight is the
International Forum forPsychoanalytic Education, an
organization which Rachel iscurrently the copresident for.
As of the time of this episode'srelease, IFPE's 2023 annual
(01:00:55):
conference is about a monthaway, it'll be held in Pasadena,
California this year, andregistration is still open.
Links to many of the books wetalked about, as well as the
podcasts that Rachel mentioned,are also in the show notes. The
Relational Psych Podcast is aproduction of Relational Psych,
a mental health clinic providingdepth oriented psychotherapy and
(01:01:17):
psychological testing in personin Seattle and virtually
throughout Washington state. Ifyou're interested in
psychotherapy or psychologicaltesting for yourself or a family
member, links to our contactinformation are in the show
notes. If you are apsychotherapist and would like
to be a guest on the show or alistener with a suggestion for
(01:01:37):
someone you'd like us tointerview, you can contact me at
podcast@Relational Psych.group.
The Relational Psych podcast ishosted and produced by me, Tyson
Conner. Sam Claney is ourexecutive producer with
technical support by Ally Rayeand the team at Virtual Ally.
Carly Claney is our CEO. Ourmusic is by Ben Lewis. We love
you, buddy.
Do you want to learn about psychological growth
without sorting through thejargon? You're in the right
place. This is the RelationalPsych podcast. I'm your host
licensed therapist, TysonConner. On this show, we learn
about the processes and theoriesbehind personal growth and
experience a little bit of itourselves. This is season two,
where we'll focus on thepractice of relational
psychotherapy, and exploreconcepts and theories that
(00:33):
consider psychology from arelational lens. And please keep
in mind that this podcast doesnot constitute therapeutic
advice, but we might help youfind some.
And today, my guest on thepodcast is Rachel Newcombe,
formerly of New York City, iscurrently a psychoanalyst,
(00:54):
supervisor and teacher in theSan Juan Islands, Seattle,
Washington and New York City. Asa teacher she practices a
radical pedagogy and thrives ina room of the disobedient, who
refuse indoctrination. Shelearns with and from students
who dare to question and makelearning their own. She began
her teaching career at age six.
Her first class consisted ofapproximately seven stuffed
(01:15):
animals gathered on her bed fora make believe story. Her
writing has appeared inContemporary Psychoanalysis, The
Psychoanalytic Review, TheTumpus, 7x7 LA, Anti-Heroine
Chic, #Elipsis. zine andelsewhere. Rachel, welcome to
the podcast.
Rachel Newcombe (01:34):
Thank you, round two. So we were talking
for a good 20 minutes about veryinteresting stuff. And then you
realized the - whatever you callit - wan't on
Tyson Conner (01:45):
Yep.
Rachel Newcombe (01:46):
So let's just pick up or do you want to give a
synopsis? We don't have to startall over.
Tyson Conner (01:52):
Our conversation today is about this question of
"how do people learn? And whatdoes it mean to teach?"
Rachel Newcombe (02:00):
And what about disruptions? Right?
Tyson Conner (02:04):
And they come up a lot. And one came up for us
today. And we were talking aboutthis, Listener, largely in the
context of like, how does apsychotherapist continue to stay
sharp, really, and to improveand to grow and develop? The
practice of psychotherapy isn'ta skill that you like, learn and
(02:26):
then have, and then it's set.
It's more of an art. It'ssomething that requires regular
practice, and regular upkeep andregular discipline to like, stay
on top of it. Especially whenyou practice from this
psychoanalytic lens andapproach. We don't use manuals
in psychoanalysis. And so ourlearning is not based off of
(02:47):
reading a manual and figuringout how it works. And so our
conversation was around just howwe think about teaching, and how
we think about how we learn. Wetalked about how there was some
research that Fred Bush, whowrote a book that you brought,
Rachel Newcombe (03:09):
The Psychoanalysis at the
Crossroads, and how when heasked people, "when you think
about your own psychoanalytictraining, what are the things
that are most memorable?"And themajority the time people say, 1.
their own analysis, 2.
supervision, And the last one isalways 3. the classroom. Which
(03:31):
made me interested and westarted talking about why do we
think it's that way? And I said,I think the teaching needs to
resemble more of thepsychoanalytic process that
we're actually doing. And thatthat maybe will change why it's
always third.
Tyson Conner (03:53):
Right? And we were talking about the idea that in
any situation of learning, theteacher and student are, ideally
ought to be learning together.
That's sort of what you'reputting forward. In contrast to
this model of like, the teacherhas all the data that they just
like, dump into the studentsmind. It's more of an experience
(04:15):
where both people learntogether. Right? And you just
talked about this idea ofsubmitting to learning
together--
Rachel Newcombe (04:27):
Submitting in a good way.
Tyson Conner (04:28):
Yes, yes.
Submitting too -- We talkedabout regression. And the idea
that people regress when theylearn, and Listener, regression
means going backwards is what itmeans. And in this context,
people regress when learningbecause when you learn, you have
(04:49):
to start from a place of notknowing something.
Rachel Newcombe (04:53):
Exactly. And not knowing inevitably brings up
anxiety.
Tyson Conner (04:58):
Mm hmm and there's lots of ways that people try to
protect themselves from thatanxiety.
Rachel Newcombe (05:02):
So to understand, people are going to
protect themselves all differentways. Defend what they don't
know, even if they're notconscious, they're doing it.
They could be constantlyquestioning the teacher who they
experienced as the authorityfigure. They could write down
everything the teacher says andjust assume everything is right.
(05:24):
They could -- anything from ourvery first experiences with
learning arise every time we arein the classroom, which is why
if we think about the classroom,it's really a psychoanalytic
classroom. There are going to betransferences to the teacher,
the teacher is going to havetransferences to the student.
(05:45):
And all of that makes for a bigcomplicated situation. Which is
why when things are disruptive,it doesn't mean something bad's
happening. It means that'seducation.
Tyson Conner (05:57):
Right. Yeah, I'm seeing the parallels as you're
talking between like atherapeutic context and an
educational context
Rachel Newcombe (06:06):
Intertwined
Tyson Conner (06:07):
For the Listener, to define transference briefly,
the idea of transference isanytime you enter into a new
relationship, you're bringing inyour experiences and memories of
previous relationships. And thatcan get kind of complicated,
especially as thoserelationships start to become
(06:27):
more significant. So if a goodexample of it that's like,
really simple, is if you had ateacher who in your elementary
school, who was mean, and verystrict and very harsh, and this
teacher was a man with grayhair, and a big bushy mustache.
(06:51):
And if you then go to see yourtherapist, and you talk to him
on the phone, and then you walkinto his office. And you see
he's a man with a big, bushymustache and gray hair. And he
reminds you of your teacher fromelementary school, then you
might expect this person to beharsh and mean with you, just
(07:14):
based off of how they look. Mosttransference - well, I don't
know if it's fair to say most -a good deal of transference
isn't based off of how peoplelook, but rather what they mean
to you.
Rachel Newcombe (07:29):
How they look might evoke something.
Tyson Conner (07:32):
Yes. And when Rachel's talking about how
students will have transferenceto the teacher, and the teacher
will have transference to thestudents, that transference can
help kind of set us up - notconsciously, we're not thinking
about it - but it sets us up totreat one another in a certain
way. And that way might not bethe best way for everyone --
Rachel Newcombe (07:52):
Or for the teacher to ignore what might be
going on that's disruptive, andnot use it as an opportunity for
further learning, I think is adisservice to everybody. As
opposed to maybe "Oh, this isthe acting up student or this
student always says blah, blah,blah." That can be addressed,
(08:13):
that can be incorporated intowhatever a teacher is teaching.
I mean, if we're psychoanalyticteachers, why would we ignore
the process in the classroom?
Tyson Conner (08:25):
Right? Yeah. So here's a question. This is a
very, like, high level question.
But like -- Okay, I'm gonnaframe it a little bit -- in
therapy, we have this idea oflike, psychoeducation; that
sometimes when you're workingwith a client, you will teach
them a psychological concept, oryou will teach them about how
(08:46):
certain things about a person'smind works. And that that's like
a part of therapy. But most oftherapy isn't teaching. At least
that's how we talk about it andthink about it. But what I'm
hearing you describe is thatmaybe all therapy is
psychoeducation, and maybe alleducation is kind of
(09:08):
therapeutic.
Rachel Newcombe (09:15):
I like that.
Anna Freud, you know, these two- Freud and Melanie Klein - both
interested in how childrenlearn. I would hope that all
learning can have apsychoanalytic element to it.
You know, when I was in graduateschool for teaching and
curriculum, I read this book byArthur Jersild "When Teachers
(09:39):
Face Themselves," and then Iwrote my end paper on that. And
then not even knowing how manyyears later, I would go to
psychoanalytic training, hisname came up, and I thought, "so
for decades, I have beeninterested in the same topic.
When teachers face themselves,and when analysts face
(10:02):
themselves." So our themesfollow us. So rather than fight
them just go with it.
Tyson Conner (10:09):
Right. And it sounds like you're recommending
that that mindset is the onethat we approach to classrooms,
therapy. And people for a longtime have talked about that idea
in therapy, right? There's thatold saying, "it's all grist for
the mill." The first time Iheard that I was sleep deprived
in a classroom, and I raised myhand and I said, "I don't know
(10:29):
what that means." And theteacher said., uhhhhhh, and he
didn't have an answer, so then Iwent and Googled it later.
Rachel Newcombe (10:37):
So the teacher used the phrase, but didn't know
what it meant?
Tyson Conner (10:40):
Apparently. I think it threw him off that I
raised my hand and said, "Pleasedefine that for me."
Rachel Newcombe (10:44):
So just using that, what do you make of the
teacher going, "uhhhhh?" Whatwas that like for you in that
moment?
Tyson Conner (10:53):
I kind of felt like I was being a little silly.
I felt like I was asking aquestion that like, wasn't what
we were here to answer.
Rachel Newcombe (11:05):
Alright, just go with that. What may you have
been picking up on that youasked that question. You're the
student. And you did ask thequestion. What are the questions
in the classroom? So not to putyou on the spot, but I don't
think it's just being silly.
What may you have beenresponding to? Because isn't
that considered a cliche?
Tyson Conner (11:28):
Yeah, grist for the mill. Yeah, kind of a
cliche. And also, like, therewas an assumption that we all
knew what that meant. And I waslike, but I don't.
Rachel Newcombe (11:37):
Alright, so what? So there's the assumption
everybody would know what thatmeant. You didn't. You raised
your hand and asked, and itwasn't addressed. And then you
didn't feel comfortable - notright or wrong - to wonder why
the teacher was using a phrasethat they couldn't explain. Now,
(11:59):
so what do you - as you and Iare talking about it - what do
you make of that?
Tyson Conner (12:04):
I find it interesting that that's the
example that came up. Becausethere's an echo of that in what
I do on this podcast, right?
Where like, even in thisrecording, you've used phrases
like regression andtransference. And then I've made
sure to go back and define them.
Because in my head, there's aversion of a Listener who isn't
(12:25):
familiar with the language, whodoesn't know the cliches, right?
Rachel Newcombe (12:31):
I know that your thing is anti-jargon. So do
you feel my using regression ortransference; do you think maybe
I wasent being sensitive, orjust assuming everybody would
know what theIy meant?
Tyson Conner (12:47):
I don't because you're just in a room with me. I
think. And I have the Listenerin my mind. And I don't expect
you to have the listener in yourmind. That's why I want to
define these things.
Rachel Newcombe (12:59):
No, I appreciate that.
Tyson Conner (13:03):
I'm in a lot of contexts. And like, part of the
reason I do this podcast, isbecause I'm in a lot of
contexts, having a lot ofconversations with people about
stuff that I find reallyinteresting and important. And
because we all have this sharedlanguage, and the shared
culture, and the sharedunderstanding of what these
things mean, we can have thesereally interesting
(13:24):
conversations, that if someonewho wasn't familiar with this
stuff were overhearing us, itwould sound like an episode of
Star Trek.
Rachel Newcombe (13:32):
So it's a reminder. And that's a reminder
for me, too, sometimes, to beaware if I use a word - because
we are doing a podcast - youstop me if that comes up.
Tyson Conner (13:44):
Yeah. And that's part of my role as the host. And
I think part of part of why thatmemory feels relevant to this is
that in that moment, I was beinga little playful, right? Like I
was being a little impish, alittle bit like, "Hey, slow
down. I want to catch up here."And I think that my teacher was
(14:05):
a little thrown off. And therewas something of a conflict
there that put us kind of like,against one another a little
bit. I had slowed him down, I'dstopped him and stumped him and
asked him a question he couldn'tanswer. And it kind of threw off
his groove in his rhythm. Andone of my hopes for this podcast
(14:26):
is that it could be a situationwhere if I slow someone down and
ask them a question, and getthem to redefine something, or
go back over something, it's notthrowing off the rhythm, it is
Rachel Newcombe (14:37):
But you said you kind of stumped the teacher.
the rhythm.
So in a way you entered theclassroom, the teacher uses a
cliche, you basically call theteacher out on using a cliche,
because even that word "tostump." So you're having a
(14:58):
reaction to the teacher, the onewho's in authority. And you're--
Tyson Conner (15:05):
We've had many conversations about my
relationship with authority. Oh,I didn't say it on this
recording, Listener. I seeRachel every week for individual
supervision.
Rachel Newcombe (15:16):
Even though you're licensed
Tyson Conner (15:17):
Even though I'm licensed.
Rachel Newcombe (15:19):
We agreed to call it supervision.
Tyson Conner (15:21):
We did. And in our conversations, my relationship
to authority comes up a lot. AndI haven't thought about the ways
that this podcast is actually, Ithink, a creative way for me to
play with my relationship toauthority; my own as well.
Because authority can often meaninaccessibility. And one of my
(15:43):
hopes is that theseconversations that we have on
the show would be accessible topeople, maybe helpful. Well,
that was fun.
Rachel Newcombe (15:55):
So I was just pointing out that even though it
sounds like that was a teachingmoment, a learning moment that
you use, what happens when theteacher is stumped? Is the
teacher curious about astudent's question? That is an
interaction and that I - youknow, I fixated on the word
(16:16):
stump - you know, you stump theteacher. So does that mean maybe
the student knows more, if notas much as the teacher? And or
what is even that dynamic? Whoknows more? Like what is
knowledge?
Tyson Conner (16:33):
Yeah. So any psychotherapist, anyone
practicing psychotherapy isrequired by the state to
continue their education. Andthe state has ways that they set
that up and evaluate that andthings like that. And within the
world of psychotherapy,especially psychoanalytic
psychotherapy, orpsychoanalysis, there is a long
(16:55):
tradition of continuing to studyand learn and grow.
Rachel Newcombe (16:59):
Because one wants to, because a person wants
to, because is it's exciting.
Tyson Conner (17:07):
Yeah, it's exciting. And it's fun. And
human beings appear to me to bepretty infinitely complex. And
so, it seems like the sort ofthing, interacting with other
human beings and trying to helpone another - whatever that
means - is, I think somethingthat you would never exhaust
(17:28):
learning about; that totallyinfinite well of learning. And
the questions coming to my mindare, "why do people choose to
learn the things they choose tolearn? And how do people pick
good places and people to learnfrom? What does a good teacher
(17:52):
look like?" I feel like most ofthe folks who would be listening
to this podcast are probablymore in positions of seeking out
teachers, they're more studentsthan they are teachers. Maybe we
can talk about how a teacherpicks good students too
Rachel Newcombe (18:05):
Oh boy, what's the so called good student?
Tyson Conner (18:09):
I have no idea
Rachel Newcombe (18:12):
How teachers and students sometimes are just
thrown together. As you know,more years in, there might be
study groups. So we might picksomebody because they're
interested -- Well, you'rereading a really interesting
book now. Right? Karen Maroda'sbook.
Tyson Conner (18:30):
Yeah, The Analysts Vulnerability,
Rachel Newcombe (18:32):
So people might gravitate towards somebody who
has literature they want tolearn or wants to learn a
theory. But in the classroom, ortraditional schooling or
psychoanalytic training, we'rekind of thrown together.
Tyson Conner (18:46):
Yeah, we are kind of tossed together, right.
There's not a lot of picking andchoosing that happens in those
contexts.
Rachel Newcombe (18:53):
And my d I don't know if it, I think maybe
it was the part where Tyson andI talked before we realized the
recording wasn't working -- Butmy real interest is in what
happens in a classroom that'sdisruptive, that I feel is an
inevitable part of learning. Andcan the teacher understand it
(19:16):
that way? And can studentsunderstand it that way? So it
doesn't have to be seen asseparate from whatever it is
they're learning. That is anaspect of what it means to learn
and what it means to teach.
Tyson Conner (19:31):
Hmm. Yeah, and that sounds like a very, very
different way of approachingteaching and learning. When I
think about the, you know, theschools that I went to, if there
was something that wasdisruptive to class, then it was
something that we tried to getpast as quick as possible. If
(19:52):
there was a student who wasbeing disruptive in class then
that student was asked to leave.
It was considered a distractfrom what we were trying to get
up to.
Rachel Newcombe (20:02):
it technically is a distraction. And there are
levels of how distracting it canbe. But it's also a distraction
that can be addressed. Firstwith the teacher wondering, why
might this be happening now?
What is the distracted studentwanting? See, again, we teacher
and student bring theirunconscious process to the
(20:24):
classroom. They don't check itat the door. So we have a
classroom full of how manystudents there are, all those
transferences. We have theteacher's transferences. So it's
a big, exciting soup going on.
Tyson Conner (20:43):
Yeah. So what makes a good teacher?
Rachel Newcombe (20:51):
It depends what the student needs. It depends,
because you and I could be inthe same classroom together and
afterwards, we say, "Oh, we lovethat teacher." We might love the
teacher for different reasons.
Two other students could walkout and say, "Oh, my God, can
you believe that teacher? Theydidn't even ask any questions."
(21:12):
So it's whatever the student'slearning needs are. Sometimes a
student doesn't know what theywant to learn until they're
exposed to it. So the firstthing that comes to mind is a
good teacher knows their subjectmatter. But it's also open to
(21:33):
possibilities of what mighthappen in the classroom. Because
when you enter a classroom,anything is possible.
Tyson Conner (21:45):
And it feels complicated, if only because in
a classroom, there are so manyother people involved. Thinking
about teaching with apsychoanalytical mind is tricky
for me, in part because all ofmy training and study and
(22:07):
experience really inpsychoanalytic settings, with
some exemptions, have been oneon one. Most of my experience
where someone was beingpsychoanalytic was either with a
therapist or with a supervisor,or with a colleague.
Rachel Newcombe (22:25):
But grad school, did you touch on some of
that? Did you have teachers whotouched on some of it?
Tyson Conner (22:30):
Absolutely. Yeah.
And I don't know if Iexperienced someone teaching
this content in apsychoanalytical way. If you're
in a classroom of 70 students,is it even possible to keep all
of these unconscious elements inmind at the same time? Is that
(22:52):
doable?
Rachel Newcombe (22:54):
I don't even know. To know they all exist, I
think is important. Because somestudents won't say anything. I
mean, who knows? It seems likelike an impossible task. But
just to be aware that they allenter the classroom that way.
That's why I taught that courseand love to teach it. The
Unconscious Goes to \School.
Because it's not separate from astudent. It's within a student.
(23:21):
And often, a teacher will teach.
And they love the so called, forlack of a better word, the
"smart students." "Oh, wow, theyknow so many ideas." But that's
just one type of student. Whatabout maybe the struggling
(23:42):
student? What about the studentthat doesn't know? What about
the student who's afraid to askquestions? So learning happens
all over the place.
Tyson Conner (23:52):
So I'm curious to shift the conversation a little
bit to talking aboutsupervision. In part because, my
guess is most of our listenerswill find themselves in
situations where they arelearning and teaching that look
a lot more like supervision thanlike a standard classroom.
(24:14):
Supervision, Listener, is whenyou have a usually newer, less
experienced or less experttherapist who goes to someone
with more experience orexpertise or specialty in a
certain way of practicing ordealing with a certain
population, and they meet one onone and they talk about the
(24:38):
work. They talk about what thesupervisee is doing with their
clients or patients and thesupervisor helps facilitate the
supervisees professionaldevelopment. That's a very, very
vague way of speaking about it,but I think that there are a lot
(25:00):
of situations in the world wherepeople find themselves in these
kinds of dynamics, especially inworkplaces, but also within
families. And, you know, withinreligious communities, there's
this kind of mentoring dynamicthat seems common to allow.
Rachel Newcombe (25:16):
And tricky in our profession is what happens
when the supervisee is alsogoing to be evaluated. Whether
it's psychoanalytic training ortwo year program or whatever.
How does that affect thedynamic?
Tyson Conner (25:34):
And that's really common in workplaces. Like most
managers who are mentoring theirdirect reports, are also in
charge of filling out theirannual review and saying, "Does
this person deserve a raise ornot?" Which makes that mentoring
relationship complicated.
Rachel Newcombe (25:55):
Well, let's use us. Let's talk about our
process. So you were alreadylicensed. So somehow we found
each other, unconsciously. Anddo you remember the first or
(26:16):
second session, what you felt?
Tyson Conner (26:19):
Yeah. So I - we spoke on the phone first. And I
remember immediately afterwards,feeling like, "oh, this will be
very interesting." I remember myworry. Because I did have a
worry going into it.
Rachel Newcombe (26:37):
What was your worry?
Tyson Conner (26:38):
My worry was that I would leave the conversation,
feeling like, either, you hadn'tshown up b had just like, asked
me a bunch of questions. Andlike, let me talk and then just
kind of like, been kind of ablank slate. Which is an
experience that I've had withother psychoanalytic mentors in
(27:01):
the past, especially in thatfirst encounter, just kind of
feeling like they're trying tostay, like really neutral; which
is a technique and is a thingthat some people respond really
positively to, but freaks meout. So I don't like it. So I
was a little worried you'd dothat, you didn't do that. And
the other thing I was worriedabout is that, from the
(27:21):
beginning, you would have a veryclear agenda of what a good
therapist look like, and thatyou would try to turn me into
that thing. Because I've hadthat experience.
Rachel Newcombe (27:32):
That somebody else's agenda - what it means to
be a good therapist, and thatthey were going to turn you into
that?
Tyson Conner (27:41):
And I think part of why that one freaks me out so
much -- the first one that likeblank slate, no engagement, that
is just a style that I don'trespond well to. And that's a
very common analytic style. Andsome people find it very
helpful. And I don't for me. Theother though, I think that
(28:02):
scared me as a concept. BecauseI think that's how we approach a
lot of training and education. Ithink a lot of training and
education does have thisunspoken, unconscious, largely
an assumption that there's athere's a good, whatever, good
therapist, good soldier, a gooddoctor, a good student, and
(28:25):
we're trying to turn you intothat thing.
Rachel Newcombe (28:28):
I'm aware, as you're talking now that I never
quite articulated it like this.
I think my agenda, if there isone is to turn the student or
the supervisee into a rigorouslearner.
Tyson Conner (28:45):
How do you do that?
Rachel Newcombe (28:46):
Well, how have -- well you're certainly a
rigorous learner. How haveyou... How is that?
Tyson Conner (28:48):
Yeah, well, it's interesting, because so when I
first reached out to you, andsaid, "Do you have room for
another supervisee right now, Iwas just practicing
(29:11):
psychotherapy part time, and Iwasn't working in this clinic
yet. And that's what we talkedabout was the psychotherapy I
was practicing. And then alittle over a year ago,
actually, I said to you at onepoint, "how do you even
supervise? How do you do this?
This seems impossible. Thisseems so complicated." And then
(29:33):
two weeks later, my life hadchanged very rapidly. And I was
in conversation with Dr. Claneyat this clinic, to come on staff
here as a supervisor. And so ourrelationship kind of shifted in
what we talked about. We weretalking about the practice of
(29:57):
psychotherapy, and a lot of theways that you engage got me to
wonder, why do I do what I do?
And to be curious about whatother people have said about why
they do what they do. And thenaround the time that I was
preparing to be in supervision,supervising people, our
(30:17):
conversations shifted to "Okay.
So now, how do you teach? How doyou supervise this intimate
relationship of an analytictherapy? It's deep and it's
intense. And the way that youchoose to interact with your
client is like, for a reason,and it's important to think
about it." How is supervisingany different? That's kind of
(30:41):
the first question that westarted with?
Rachel Newcombe (30:47):
Like even you developing this podcast, so I'm
sitting here, I'm in the processwith you? And then I'm thinking,
"Uh-Oh, what if there's thatlistener that's thinking, 'oh,
what does this have to do withteaching or something?'" Then I
realized, just as I say that,that somebody listening to how
you and I engage will get asense of why we do what we do.
(31:11):
Because we're doing it. And it'snot always pin-pointable. We're
open to each other. You asked mequestions, I asked you
questions. You do something,sometimes when I ask why that
choice at that moment, you sharethings with how you supervise,
and I asked the same kind ofquestions. Do you feel
(31:36):
comfortable if --Well, have youconfronted me? Not in an
obnoxious way?
Tyson Conner (31:41):
Yeah. There was that one time about the gender
and sexuality thing.
Rachel Newcombe (31:49):
Oh, boy.
Totally called me out, which isgood. Actually an important
point.
Tyson Conner (31:55):
Yeah. So to frame this, we're talking about, like,
how conflict comes intolearning? And especially
learning in relationships thatare active and close. This isn't
the kind of -- I don't know howyou can apply this to learning
from reading a book. But maybeyou could? I don't know. So
(32:19):
Rachel, and I had been workingtogether for about a year at
that point. And I was talkingabout a situation where I made
some comment about somebody whomaybe wanted a therapist who was
(32:39):
of a political affiliation, whowas --
Rachel Newcombe (32:42):
A sexual orientation and a gender
orientation. And you presentedthe case. And -- I'm blacking
out. So what did I say?
Tyson Conner (32:53):
I said, Well, I think that this person is
looking for a therapist who'slike this, this and this. And I
listed three things. And yourresponse was, "and you are none
of those things." And myimmediate thought was, "well,
actually, I'm two of thosethings."
Rachel Newcombe (33:08):
Right. And you told me. So what let you know
that you could tell me that?
Tyson Conner (33:16):
I think it's this theme that's been coming up in
this conversation, the wholetime of teaching environments,
requiring this surrender tolearning, which is an openness
to being wrong, an openness tonot knowing, which is an open --
Rachel Newcombe (33:36):
And assumptions. And we bring
assumptions to learning; our ownframework, or --
Tyson Conner (33:42):
I think part of the reason I felt comfortable
enough in that moment, saying,like, "actually, you're wrong, I
have two have these identities,"was because throughout our
process together, you'd askedme, "Well, how do you know that
about somebody? Did you askthem? You're making an
assumption there."
Rachel Newcombe (33:59):
And I was doing the same damn thing.
Tyson Conner (34:01):
Right. And that experience, and our previous
conversations helped me to getthis sense that 'oh, you're not
saying you've made an assumptionthere. tisk tisk bad job,
Tyson.' You're saying, 'Oh,look, you've made an assumption
there, human beings certainlymake an awful lot of
assumptions, don't we? And if weput in a lot of effort, we can
(34:22):
try to make fewer, and then wemight learn some more.'
Rachel Newcombe (34:25):
And you being able to say that, to me, totally
opened up I make assumptions.
Not that I thought I was aboveit, but that's the unconscious
piece. Why the heck did I makethat assumption? And again, you
say what is learning? You and Iboth had learning in that
moment. You brought it to me.
(34:47):
And how interesting, then youand I went on to teach a seminar
about it? We used that as ateaching moment. You and I
didn't plan for that.
Tyson Conner (35:02):
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Rachel Newcombe (35:05):
So the unexpected encounters; you say
what makes a good teacher? Beingopen to the unexpected
encounters.
Tyson Conner (35:13):
Right. Being open to the unexpected encounters.
The thing I can imagine alistener who's hearing this
thinking, like, I'm imagining alistener who is maybe a middle
manager, right? Someone who isin a position where they have
people who report to them,people who they're in charge of
(35:35):
mentoring, of helping to trainand to develop, but also has
people that they are mentored byand that they report to and are
beholden to, in some way.
Imagining someone in thatposition. And I'm imagining that
kind of person wondering, "okay,this stuff sounds really
(35:56):
interesting." Being open to whathappens, learning from and
learning with and learningtogether. This sounds like, to
do this means you have to bereally comfortable with not
having answers. How do you dothat? Because not having answers
(36:19):
is really scary.
Rachel Newcombe (36:23):
Well, not having answers or being open to
new questions. Because I havesome answers. Like, you could
ask me what my favorite booksare. I can give you an answer.
You can ask me questions. Soyou're talking about a specific
not having an answer. Like, sowhat do you do? What does the
(36:46):
teacher do when asked a questionthey don't have the answer for?
I would hope I say "I don'tknow." And I would be curious
about the students question.
"How did you even think of thatquestion, because now I'm
thinking of that question." Sothe teacher to be open to
(37:07):
questions that they didn'tanticipate, which is again,
anything when you walk in aclassroom.
Tyson Conner (37:15):
Yeah. It feels like this way of teaching
requires a kind of security inthe teacher.
Rachel Newcombe (37:25):
And tolerance for anxiety. Because if you go
in knowing anything can happen,it's both terrifying. And it's
also quite freakin thrilling.
Something's always had beenmade. And that's the site of
learning. That's what I feel isthe site of learning.
Tyson Conner (37:48):
This space where things are being made?
Mm hmm. I'mthinking about -- we've made
Rachel Newcombe (37:49):
Yes. Because there's knowledge, I'd love to
teach any one of these booksthat I brought. So there's
knowledge when we read a booktogether. But the reason we're
in a classroom is becauseknowledge is also created. What
if ideas that you didn't thinkof, I didn't think of the, other
students didin't think of, thencome together from us sharing
(38:12):
our minds together?
this connection betweenpsychoanalysis and teaching. And
you've made the argument thatlike, at the end of the day,
these two processes are built onthe same foundation--
(38:35):
Well, with oneexception, not at the end of the
day, all day long.
Tyson Conner (38:38):
All day long, right. That the process is the
same.
Rachel Newcombe (38:47):
I just have to say, and you know, me, I don't
-- Freud said that threeimpossible professions are
psychoanalysis, government, andeducation. People often remember
the first one psychoanalysis"the impossible profession," but
he also included education.
Tyson Conner (39:06):
Yeah, it's impossible.
Rachel Newcombe (39:09):
And necessarily so, but that's the thrilling
part two, it's the ongoingnessof it, the excitement of it.
Tyson Conner (39:17):
And I imagine that part of what was meant by
impossible there, is that youcan't be given a list of
instructions of how to teach andthen teach perfectly every time.
Rachel Newcombe (39:31):
Nor is that the goal, same as that's not the
goal with being a therapist oran analyst. It's showing up with
the unexpected. And that doesn'tmean -- and you know, my bias --
I think, to teach you have to bea rigorous learner always
ongoing. You know, for me, a petpeeve is taking a course,
(39:53):
reading materials aside, and theteacher standing up there and
asking for me the dreadedquestion, "what did you think of
reading?" Of all questions,which is why when I teach, I
often like to talk about how toread an article, how to engage
with an article, how to engagewith ideas that you don't know.
(40:14):
You know, it's like getting inthere. What do you do when you
don't know something? Do yousay, "Oh, this is too hard?"
What do you do when something'stoo hard? Those are all elements
of reading. What do you do witha student who shows up to class,
and you have a sense thatthey're not doing the reading? I
mean, again, there are so manydifferent things to manage. And
(40:35):
when you think about ourprofession, there are no
guidelines. And I don't know ifI think there should be, but I
think it's worth consideringthat nobody's required to take a
class on teaching in order toteach. It feels disrespectful to
teachers; that 'anybody couldteach' as if it's not a
profession or not an art.
Tyson Conner (40:57):
Yeah. And I noticed one of the books you
brought, I believe The Pedagogyof the Oppressed?
Unknown (41:04):
love a chain gallop?
Tyson Conner (41:06):
And is that the book where it talks about the
traditional model of teachingwhere it's, the teacher has the
content, and just like puts it--
Rachel Newcombe (41:18):
That's the Pedagogy of the Oppressed by
Paulo Freire. That he calls thebanking system of education,
right?
Tyson Conner (41:25):
The banking system requirement to study how to
teach, is because if you havethat banking system in mind,
it's just a transfer. Like,"what do you mean, I have to
learn how to do it? I have theinformation, I'm just gonna give
it to you. And then you'll haveit." And that's how you teach.
Rachel Newcombe (41:44):
Even with something like math, which is
more formulaic. Doesn't have tobe the banking system, because
not everybody will come to aclassroom with the same math
skills, right?
Tyson Conner (41:56):
So part of what I'm hearing you say is for a
Listener who's hearing this, ormight be wondering, "okay, how
do I be a better teacher?"There's a lot of these ideas
about openness to not knowingand openness to learning with,
and allowing things that youmight consider as a disruption
to actually be a part of thelearning process. To pay
attention to the unconsciousthat you bring as a teacher as
(42:20):
well as what your students mightbe bringing.
Rachel Newcombe (42:22):
Well, what I could do is, I can certainly,
after the podcast, send you someof my favorite books that
address this topic. Because someplace to start is to read about
people who are loving thistopic, who have encountered this
topic, who have spent theirlife, you know, feeling
(42:43):
passionate about this topic. Andthat's a place to start. When I
was a fourth grade teacher inNew York at a private school, I
spent one summer - there waslike a six week course, with
this teacher, her name is LucyCalkins - and she wrote a book
called something like, LessonsFrom My Students. And she was
(43:07):
teaching writing - this as aTeacher's College, Columbia -
she said, "We can teach studentswriting and grammar and
everything from their owncreative writing." Like you
don't have to take out a grammarbook and say, "Okay, now we're
going to learn about actionverbs." You can take out your
own creative writing to thestudent. "Okay, look, what are
(43:30):
the action words?" Everything'sintegrated. So I see that as
being the psychoanalyst job as ateacher too; everything is in
there in the classroom.
Tyson Conner (43:43):
Yeah, but the thing that Listeners will most
recognize your name from is howoften I referenced the idea that
all theory is autobiography.
Because that's an idea that Ifirst heard from you. And it
sounds like. part of what I'mhearing you say is, you know,
learning is building theory. Andso use the students
(44:04):
autobiography to do it--
Rachel Newcombe (44:09):
Absolutely. And that all of us, you know, if you
put 10 analysts in the room, themost fascinating question might
be, why do you love the theorythat you love, right? And
inevitably, we all have verypersonal attachments to how we
wind up with what we love.
Tyson Conner (44:30):
Part of what I love about that idea, is how it
leaves room for us all to bevery deeply human. And one of
the sticky points of the idea isthat it doesn't let us say, "my
theory is just inherentlybetter." And there's a tendency
(44:52):
to, I think that we want to beable to do that sometimes.
Because if it's just a betterthe we're safe. If it's just
better then we know, and we'reokay. And "look, this is the
right way to do it because it'sbest."
Rachel Newcombe (45:07):
And after - speaking of autobiography, -
after almost three decades inthe field, practicing a certain
way, interpersonalpsychoanalysis, I am being
supervised by a client. And howhumbling to really understand
comparative theory. And I feelso happy that I'm not learning
(45:32):
from somebody who is saying "Myway's the right way." Like
sharing "this is the way Iorganize my thinking," and it's
almost like I wish everybody inthe field after a certain point,
could try learning a differenttheory.
Tyson Conner (45:49):
This is making me think about one of my teachers
in grad school. I went to gradschool that was also a seminary.
And so I was required to takethese theology classes. And at
the time, I had just gotten intoa new spiritual tradition and
changed churches, I like fullyjoined it and like, did a whole
ceremony and everything. And wewere encouraged in this theology
(46:10):
class, to join a reading groupwhere they were studying a
theology different from ourtradition. And I went, and I
talked to the teacher, and Isaid, "Listen, I know we've been
encouraged to study somethingoutside of our tradition. But I
just joined this one, like I amless than a year into practicing
this kind of religion." And whatshe said was, "she thinks about
(46:36):
someone's theology like agarden. And when you first plant
your garden, you want high wallsaround it, so that things don't
get in and trample over it sothat seeds don't blow in and get
planted in your soil. But onceyour garden's grown up a little
bit, and your plants are sturdy,you tear down those walls, so
(46:56):
that you can cross pollinatewith the other gardens. That
like there's a developmentalprocess to it, and that it's
okay to find something that youidentify with. And you say, '
like this, this works for me.'And to dive into it." And what
I'm hearing you say is, you hopethat at some point, you're also
(47:18):
able to dive out of it intothose other traditions.
Rachel Newcombe (47:22):
To see why this garden is so pretty, or that
gardenis so pretty even, youknow, if it's different than
mine. And, Hmm, maybe I do wantto plant a petunia in my tulip
garden. Maybe there's room forthat.
Tyson Conner (47:38):
Yeah.
Rachel Newcombe (47:39):
Well, you have certainly turned me on to books
and podcasts that you love. Andthe one that stands out the
most. And I told you, I thenreferred it to my colleagues.
Can the Monster Speak? I nevereven heard of it. But that's
kind of cool. Is that a crosspollination? Yeah, I think so. I
(48:02):
mean, and then I pollinated mycolleagues.
Tyson Conner (48:05):
So there's one thing we haven't talked about
that I want us to if we havetime is the role of independent
learning in all of this. Becausewe've been talking about
learning and teaching in groupsettings, in individual
settings. But again, thinkingabout the Listener,
(48:26):
realistically, like this podcastis an individual learning
experience. It's a littleexperiential, because you get to
listen in on the conversation --
Rachel Newcombe (48:34):
But somebody who finds this, maybe on purpose
or accidentally, hopefully,it'll spark something, or, 'Oh,
what are those books Rachelmentioned? Or what's that book,
Tyson? Can The Monster Speak?'They might go and look. And that
will take them down, you know,into their own huge Botanical
Gardens, right. But soindependent learning, you asked
(48:58):
what makes a good teacher - Ialways had this fantasy,
psychoanalytic training isusually four year., I always had
this fantasy that somewhere inthere, there would be a fifth
year. And a teacher and advisorwould say, "you are to spend one
year in the library. Any libraryor several libraries of your
(49:20):
choice. Don't go with a plan.
Just begin reading. You couldstart with Anna Freud. You could
start with Florenzi, anybody.
You could go to the fictionsection." I think to encourage
the rigor of what it means toread. So I think that helps an
independent learner or podcastbut that you have to constantly
(49:44):
be saying, "What am I doing tolearn?" And not be a chore.
Tyson Conner (49:52):
That's where my mind was. I've spoken to a lot
of people who will have booksthat they read that are like
work That's like, 'I'm readingthis because it's good for me to
learn it. So I will read it.'And there's something about
that, that choreness of it, thatfeels -- I don't know, I don't
(50:14):
have many words for it, but itfeels like it doesn't quite fit
the theory that we're workingwith right now.
Rachel Newcombe (50:20):
Well, my colleague, Larry Green, we're co
presidents of IFPE, orinternational forum for
psychoanalytic education. Andjust a few days ago, he said to
me, "Oh, Rachel, you have toread her chapter on empathy."
And I said, "Oh, I know somebodywho's reading that book right
now. You!" So how interesting,two people who I like are
(50:43):
reading the same book. And justbeing open to that also. I like
her earlier writings, haven'tread - but now the two of you
have read it, and I absolutelyam going to read it or listen to
it.
Tyson Conner (50:55):
Yeah. Karen Morada's The Analyst
Vulnerability
Rachel Newcombe (50:59):
And knowing you and I were going to do a
podcast. I read her article, Ithink from 1998. 'Is
Psychoanalysis Unteachable?'
Tyson Conner (51:10):
Oh, shoot is it?
Rachel Newcombe (51:15):
Who knows? But I loved the article. I read hers
and Thomas Augden's 'On TeachingPsychoanalysis.' They were good
companion pieces. But what didyou mean by independent
learning?
Tyson Conner (51:30):
I'm thinking about how, for many people, the idea
of learning on your own issomething that's taken on as a
chore, or as an assignment. Orthere's the sense that, 'well,
if I'm going to be anintellectual person in the
world, then I need to read thisbook that they talked about on
NPR,' or something. And Iimagine you might have thoughts
about other compasses, otherways of guiding you through your
(51:54):
independent learning.
Rachel Newcombe (51:55):
One question, what interests you?
Tyson Conner (51:58):
Oh, there you go.
Rachel Newcombe (51:59):
Yeah. What interests you?
Tyson Conner (52:01):
What if the answer is young adult fiction?
Rachel Newcombe (52:02):
Then go there.
After this, you know, ElliottBay bookstore, it was their 50th
anniversary yesterday. So I'mgoing up there and the most
exciting thing is I don't have aplan. Sometimes I go looking for
a book. And just to go and seewhat draws you. You know, that's
why that whole fantasy of a yearin the library - See what draws
you, you know, see where youunconsciously follow your
(52:26):
interests. There are certainthings you must read, like if
you go to a formalpsychotherapy, but after that,
there's the whole thing thatDeborah Britain calls 'after
education.' And there's a Germanword, which I couldn't even
begin to pronounce, means 'aftereducation,' the education after
(52:46):
one's formal education, and shefeels that education inevitably
fails us. Not because it's bad,the impossibilities of learning.
So there's always the ongoingeducation.
Tyson Conner (53:04):
Yeah. So for a Listener who's feeling like
'okay, this is all veryinteresting. And it sounds like
it's important to do thisindependent learning, this
independent reading andstudying,' what I'm hearing you
say is follow what interestsyou. So then, how do I know - if
I'm a listener - how do I knowif what I'm reading is just
(53:26):
entertainment?
Rachel Newcombe (53:27):
Do they have to be separate? I told you when we
were outside last night, I wentto see Hedwig and the Angry
Inch. You take your interest inlearning and it could happen
anywhere. Like why do they haveto be separate? I don't know if
that's an answer. I found myselfbeing curious about the
(53:49):
playwright, about Berlin, abouteverything.
Tyson Conner (53:53):
So then learning is an experience that's defined
by curiosity.
Rachel Newcombe (54:01):
The individual's curiosity.
Tyson Conner (54:03):
So if you're reading a book, and you find
yourself curious about it, thenthere's learning. And it doesn't
matter if that book is Winniethe Pooh, or Michael Pollan's
most recent book, or whateverelse people are talking about
around the watercooler.
Rachel Newcombe (54:24):
this year at the IFPE conference, the theme
of the conference is -but is itpsychoanalytic? And one of the
people who's getting theDistinguished Educator Award is
not an analyst, but a podcasternamed David Naiman, who has this
wonderful literary podcastcalled Between the Covers. David
(54:50):
prepares and asks people heinterviews some of the most
psychoanalytic questions I haveever heard. So then there's the
question is, could something bepsychoanalytic and not be in a
psychoanalytic classroom? Sothen it, you know, following
your thing, ifsomething isentertaining, of course, you're
(55:12):
learning from it. You learn fromeverything. So what haven't we
Tyson Conner (55:21):
I think the only thing on my mind -- so in terms
addressed?
of further learning from this,you have a stack of books. Links
will be in the show notesListener, go to the show notes.
And you can find links to thesebooks. Also, you know, whatever
else, podcasts, YouTubevideos...
Rachel Newcombe (55:42):
Then I'll mention the ones that I
mentioned, IFPE, David Naimens.
podcast, John Totten here inSeattle has a wonderful
podcast... What was I going tosay? Oh, so when you thought
about the podcast, you wereinterviewing me, did you have
ideas what it would come out?
Like what it would look like? Orhow do you feel now as we're
(56:04):
winding towards the end?
Tyson Conner (56:05):
I've been thinking a lot about what this podcast is
recently, and what its gonna bebecause this is going to be part
of our second season. Our firstseason, we really just trying to
find our feet. Our secondseason, we're trying to be more
intentional. And this is aboutwhat I expected. There's a part
(56:27):
of me that feels anxious thatthis isn't accessible enough.
And when I listened back to it,I imagine I might feel
differently. I think that's justan anxiety that's with me in
this podcast for this season,especially. My hope is that
(56:47):
people are surprised by thisconversation. Because I think
people are used to conversationsabout learning and education and
development, personal,professional, intellectual
development as being kind oflike, "well, first this and then
this, and then this and thenthis."
Rachel Newcombe (57:04):
Like linear.
You mean?
Tyson Conner (57:05):
Yeah. And my hope is that people's experience of
listening to this conversationmight be one where there was
kind of a real refusal to leaninto the linearity of it, and an
openness to what came up and tothe disruptions that we dealt
with with the recording.
Rachel Newcombe (57:26):
And I told you, I was thinking, "I'm going to be
asked about education. I don'tknow anything about education.
What if he asked me a question Idon't know the answer to? What
if, what if the listener says,'well, she got transference
wrong?'" So anxieties never end.
It's just living with them. Butanxieties for me come up when
(57:46):
somebody goes, "Oh is she anexpert?" No I'm just somebody
who loves this topic.
Tyson Conner (57:56):
And selfishly, one of the reasons why I love
podcasts as a genre, is becauseit's a chance for people who
love a topic to just talk aboutit, and you can just listen, and
I love that. So I hope thatlisteners feel that way about
this episode.
Rachel Newcombe (58:11):
And I like how present you are --
Tyson Conner (58:13):
I love--
Rachel Newcombe (58:15):
as a podcaster.
Tyson Conner (58:17):
Thank you. I try to be. I have been fortunate in
that every episode we've doneI've been very interested in. I
think the one thing that I'd becurious to hear - we try to talk
to people about further learningoptions. But also, when we can
(58:39):
we try to offer an experiment,which is just the word that we
use for 'something that alistener could do to try to get
some experience of whateverwe've talked about.'
Rachel Newcombe (58:50):
Okay, so you're wanting me to have an
experiment? No matter what townyou are in, please go to an
independent bookstore. Without abook in mind, let yourself
(59:12):
wander for an hour, whether it'sthe cooking section, the zine,
section, the biography, and justlet yourself wander. And if you
can afford it, buy a book.
Tyson Conner (59:25):
That is a great experiment. Well, it helps that
that's what you're up to latertoday.
Rachel Newcombe (59:31):
Not looking for a specific book, and if you
can't make it to an independentbookstore, do the same thing in
a library.
Tyson Conner (59:38):
Right? Yeah. I love that. And I think part of
why I love it is because I thinkif there's an oversimplification
of our conversation today, itwould probably boil down to
something like, "let yourinterest and your ability to be
curious and not know guide theprocess."And like, that's what
(01:00:02):
you're recommending.
Rachel Newcombe (01:00:03):
And that's what you just synopsized perfectly.
Tyson Conner (01:00:06):
Well, let's wrap it up. Thank you so much for
coming in and for your extratime, especially with the
disruption.
Rachel Newcombe (01:00:12):
No worries.
Tyson Conner (01:00:13):
Special thanks to Rachel Newcombe for coming on
the podcast today, Rachel'stwitter and instagram handle is
@RachelNewcombe8, link in theshow notes. An example of some
of her hybrid writing can befound at the ellipsis zine
online. A link to that is alsoin the show notes. If this
conversation interested you orengaged you in any way,
(01:00:33):
hopefully, it won't surprise youto hear that there are an awful
lot of options for furtherlearning. Also in the show notes
today. The one thing I wouldlove to highlight is the
International Forum forPsychoanalytic Education, an
organization which Rachel iscurrently the copresident for.
As of the time of this episode'srelease, IFPE's 2023 annual
(01:00:55):
conference is about a monthaway, it'll be held in Pasadena,
California this year, andregistration is still open.
Links to many of the books wetalked about, as well as the
podcasts that Rachel mentioned,are also in the show notes. The
Relational Psych Podcast is aproduction of Relational Psych,
a mental health clinic providingdepth oriented psychotherapy and
(01:01:17):
psychological testing in personin Seattle and virtually
throughout Washington state. Ifyou're interested in
psychotherapy or psychologicaltesting for yourself or a family
member, links to our contactinformation are in the show
notes. If you are apsychotherapist and would like
to be a guest on the show or alistener with a suggestion for
(01:01:37):
someone you'd like us tointerview, you can contact me at
podcast@Relational Psych.group.
The Relational Psych podcast ishosted and produced by me, Tyson
Conner. Sam Claney is ourexecutive producer with
technical support by Ally Rayeand the team at Virtual Ally.
Carly Claney is our CEO. Ourmusic is by Ben Lewis. We love
you, buddy.
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