August 4, 2025 • 52 mins
In episode 23, Zach and Pat welcome a special guest: Alyssa McClanahan, historian, preservationist, and author, whose work brings buildings and the people behind them back into the spotlight. Alyssa’s nationally recognized storytelling-based preservation projects explore how architecture intersects with memory, justice, and identity.
Together, they unpack what historic preservation really means in today’s fast-changing real estate and urban development landscape. From adaptive reuse and sustainability to community-led preservation efforts, Alyssa shares powerful insights and real-life stories—like saving the Taft Theatre, Cincinnati Music Hall, and more. You’ll also hear about the challenges facing preservation today, and why forgotten spaces and found objects can hold deep meaning in our collective history. If you’ve ever wondered what makes a place worth preserving or who decides, this episode will leave you thinking differently about the buildings around you.
Check out her books here:
- Zimmer: The Movement That Defeated a Nuclear Power Plant
- Findlay Market of Cincinnati: A History
- Be on the lookout for her upcoming book, Insignificant: A Hidden History of Women, coming late 2025.
As we build toward Episode 25 and the next season of The Rent-ish Pod, make sure to follow and subscribe so you never miss the latest real estate trends, tips, and insights. Got a question you want answered on air? Email us at questions@therentishpod.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
What's going on, everybody?
My name is Zach, and I'm herewith my co-host, Patrick.
What up?
You told me to go, and then youstarted drinking your soda.
So that was bad timing on yourpart, Mr.
Producer.
We're your hosts for the RentishPodcast.
Welcome in the podcast that'sall about rental properties,
hosted by two guys that work inthe real estate industry and
(00:22):
kind of know what they'retalking about.
but
SPEAKER_01 (00:24):
mostly don't
SPEAKER_00 (00:25):
sip.
Great job, Patrick.
You nailed the second one.
I'll give you a two out of 10 onthe first one, but a nine out of
10 on the second.
Okay.
So you did a great job.
So yeah, mostly we don't, you'reright.
Which is why I think you're allgonna have fun listening to us
talk to experts, learning alongwith us, or just laughing about
how little we know.
But we're gonna learn somethingtoday, Patrick.
How about that?
I'm excited.
You're excited?
SPEAKER_01 (00:45):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
Because we're joined by a very special guest.
We've had a few episodes in thepast where it's just a lot of me
and Patrick just kind ofshooting the breeze and kind of
guessing about properties andabout buildings, but now it's
real.
Now it's official.
We've got someone here that'sgonna be able to educate us, I
think, on some really awesomehistoric preservation of modern
America And some cool stuffabout the place that we're
(01:08):
recording too, Cincinnati.
So we're joined today by AlyssaMcClanahan, who is a historian,
preservationist, and authorwhose work explores the
intersection of architecture,memory, and justice.
She's written over 100place-based building histories,
developed interpretive contentfor museums, led inclusive
walking tours, and designedstorytelling-based preservation
(01:29):
projects across the country.
What a resume.
Quite the resume.
Quite the resume.
Alyssa, thank you for coming onto The Rentish Pod.
Thank
SPEAKER_02 (01:37):
you so much for having me.
That makes me sound far moreimpressive than I am.
That was a very kind intro.
SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
No, I'm so glad that you're here and that you've
decided to take some time totalk to Patrick and I about some
cool buildings and some coolfacts.
And I'm sure we're going to havea cool little discussion here.
But I don't know.
Tell us a little bit about you.
Tell us what's your story.
What brought you to this placehere
SPEAKER_02 (01:58):
today?
Yes, that's a great question.
I have always loved old places,I think, ever since I was a
little kid and just stories theytell.
So I think with that as thebackground, I was in grad school
for history, like with a capitalH, you know, like to be a
professor or something.
And I kind of realized I didn'twant to do that.
(02:20):
I wanted to work more on theground, work with the public,
work with people that were likedealing with history in a more
messy, visceral way.
So when I was in grad school, Imet my husband and we got
involved in historicpreservation, like activism,
volunteering, uh, publicitycampaigns to save an old
building from just being torndown for a parking lot,
(02:41):
something that felt like itdidn't make a lot of sense.
He bought his first oldbuilding.
We worked on it together.
I then kind of tumbled into abeautiful career, beautiful not
because of my own work, butbecause of the opportunities
I've gotten to have in historicpreservation consulting.
So particularly historicpreservation tax credit
(03:01):
consulting.
And then from there, spending alot of time dealing with
singular places.
What can we do with them?
What's the story that they tell?
How to retell that in anadaptive, reused way?
I think I made some connectionswith community organizations
that were interested in, we havean old building, we have an old
neighborhood.
(03:21):
How can you help us storytellthis in an inclusive, creative
way that would make ordinaryfolks like you and me care about
it and want to go explore thatplace?
And so I have a toe inside of auniversity.
I I teach at UC Blue Ash.
I'm very grateful for that.
I love the students.
I teach urban and environmentalhistory, place-based history,
(03:43):
trying to get like kiddos tocare about places.
But I mostly like to, again, bekind of on the ground of a
community, like dealing witheveryday people and what are the
stories that surround us?
What are the different ways thatpeople remember the past?
Kind of deal with all thosemessy questions.
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
That's beautiful.
It's very poetic.
You can tell that you have apassion for the history of these
places, which is why it would becool to kind of like dig a
little deeper into some of thembut okay yeah in terms of this
just a question off the batabout teaching and about like
getting other people to reallycare about the buildings that
you care about do you find thatit's pretty easy to get someone
(04:21):
to really feel that same sort ofexcitement that you might feel
about a building like being ableto share that story is that
something do you feel like thatconnection is easily made for
you
SPEAKER_02 (04:29):
I think so it's different in the classroom
versus like out in the quoteunquote real world but I feel
like the same maybe tactics kindof be employed where it's like,
what, what's the creative likeoutlet that we're going to get
people to just like be able togo back in time and imagine
like, Oh, being here in thesixties or the 1860s, you know,
you just got to like kind ofcare a little bit, uh, just give
(04:52):
a shit to use the phrase, youknow, um, employ our empathy.
Um, you know, for students, it'slike, let me show you an
awesome, large format, old, oldphoto of this place.
Right.
And I find that for a publicaudience, like, um, That, over
words, any day is going to getsomebody to care a little bit
more about a place.
There's another awesome localhistorian here, Ann Steinert,
(05:14):
who had this awesome project acouple years ago where she would
take a scene from the city andfind an old photograph from that
same vantage.
And she got permission from thecity, like permits and
everything, to temporarilyinstall them as though they were
like road signs.
And so you could look like, oh,Central Parkway today, flashback
120 years.
It's the canal, but it's theexact same perspective And you
(05:36):
would just see people, maybelike to be a bit stereotypical,
someone that you would think,maybe they're not that
interested in history, right?
They're down here to see theReds ball game or whatever.
And they're stopping and they'relooking at it.
And they're like talking totheir 12-year-old about it.
And that is like beautiful,accessible public history right
there, right?
And I always love that projectof hers.
(05:56):
So I find stuff like thatinvigorates imaginations.
SPEAKER_01 (06:00):
I was going to ask, because that sign example that
you mentioned is reallyinteresting to me.
What are some other ways besidesobviously teaching, maybe
besides like putting up thesigns?
What are some other ways thatyou get those stories out there
for folks who might not beseeking them to learn about?
SPEAKER_02 (06:14):
Yeah.
I have found like anything to dowith like a walking tour,
anything to get the body movinga little bit and get them
physically into an old spacereally does the trick.
I also like to be a little bitodd or creative with like
collaborations.
Like who could I pair up with inthe city that has nothing to do
(06:35):
with history but they have askill set that I totally lack
where they could help me come upwith like, not even just like,
here's my idea, please help meexecute it.
But they'll help me come up withthe idea because they like think
about things totally differentthan a historian.
So I've worked with a lot oflike local artists to come up
with weird ways to produce artor other ways to story tell.
(06:58):
John and I were involved in amagazine years ago that was just
all about like, how do we tellunder the radar developer's
stories and the buildingsthey're working on the stories
that are there that no one elseis reading and then by working
on the magazine you're workingwith like all sorts of new
characters that I would nevernormally work about and then
(07:20):
that gets them to care about thestories and you learn from them
one of the things I was involvedat with Finley Market was some
public art Cincinnati has such abeautiful rich tradition with
artworks of these public muralseverywhere I feel like that's
another great example like let'spaint a scene let's imagine a
scene right and then yeah justweird things I did a Pendleton
(07:41):
art show years ago where we gota group of folks together that
had been in old buildings andcollected various found objects
over the years and we did an artshow of like this is an old
bottle I found and like whatstories can it tell like whose
hands possibly held this rightand that it was just weird stuff
like that
SPEAKER_01 (08:00):
yeah
SPEAKER_02 (08:01):
I'm always up for the weird thing because it
usually means somebody is goingto care and I'm going to get to
meet fascinating people that areway smarter than me, that know
how to do all sorts of things
SPEAKER_00 (08:09):
I don't.
SPEAKER_02 (08:11):
That's what I'm after in life.
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
Yeah, stuff all over the spectrum there.
But in terms of like, you are anauthor.
Yes.
We talked about that in yourintro.
You got a couple things herethat I did want to help plug.
Oh, thank you.
Zimmer, The Movement ThatDefeated a Nuclear Power Plant.
That's the whole title.
Is that your first publishedwork?
That's the second book.
That's your second one.
Is the first one Finley Marketof Cincinnati History?
(08:33):
Good guess.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I don't know.
Tell us about the process oflike actually like it must be so
much time and effort andresearch poured into making
these books and publishing them.
SPEAKER_02 (08:45):
Yes, it is, because I think that's the way it should
be.
Right.
If you're going to undergo ahistorical research project like
that's what people should trusthistorians to do well, like it's
going to be rigorously researchas objective as possible.
So I like that.
Like this is going to be acouple of years of your life
type of mentality because it'slike, well, that's what you were
(09:05):
trained to do.
You need to do that.
Um, and I am a very un impatientperson with everything else in
my life, but that I can get downto look in some sources for many
years.
Um, but yeah, so I was hired in2018 by the corporation for
Finley market to do thoseplace-based histories of all the
buildings that surround themarket and up and down Elman
(09:28):
race streets.
They were interested in more anda more inclusive understanding
of the market areas past, um,including like immigrants and
African Americans that had spenttime there.
And they were going to use thatto kind of drum up for their
business, for the market in agood way, just like better
storytelling.
Let's tell everybody's versionof Finley Market.
(09:48):
I finished that, which resultedin some cool stuff for the
market.
And I was like, I have all thisresearch.
And so I decided to turn it intoa book using this method I
learned in school.
It's called micro history.
And the idea behind it is like,let me take a singular thing or
place and like blow, use it as alens into a larger history.
(10:10):
So I could use your shoe tolargely explore the shoe
industry or the history of thegarment industry or the history
of labor or something like that,you know?
And so it's like, I'm going totake a singular object that's
really relatable to people anddo that.
So Finley market is interestingbecause I feel like a lot of
people in the city love it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:30):
They don't, Exactly know why they love it.
Maybe they like to go there.
Maybe they like the oldbuildings around it.
It feels like Europe.
I've heard all these things, butthey don't know exactly why.
And so I wanted to investigate,like I wanted to offer the
history of the market to themand sneakily tell them the
larger history of cities, ofurban core neighborhoods through
(10:53):
a beloved place to them.
And that was a sneaky way for meto get at larger things that I
think some people have a hardtime with, like the importance
of of immigration and race incities and racism in cities and
white flight and how governmentshelped build cities and then
stopped and now they'rereinvesting in them and all
these things that urbanhistorians know a lot about but
(11:14):
the everyday public doesn't knowwhy over their own experienced
population growth and not growthand now regrowth and so it's my
sneaky way to do that that's thegoal I'm not sure if it did that
but that's the goal that's coolI
SPEAKER_00 (11:28):
would imagine that I would love to read the book I
mean, I'm very interested inCincinnati history.
Huge Cincinnati.
I've lived here my entire life.
So it's a very passionate thingfor me.
It's part of the reason I stillstay here is that the culture,
the history and all that stuff.
So definitely want to check thatout.
That's very cool.
And you have an upcoming booktoo, Insignificant.
You want to tell us a little bitabout that as well?
SPEAKER_02 (11:49):
Yes.
So spending a lot of my last, Idon't know, 15 years and very
long abandoned, very dustybuildings with my husband and
friends.
I have collected...
As much as I could, anything Icould get my hands on, something
that I physically found in thebuilding or I found digitized by
researching the building.
(12:09):
And I particularly wanted tocollect stories of women because
women do not get their due whenit comes to the history of
places, buildings, real estatetoday.
And most of the women that livedin these buildings I've spent
time on were immigrants ormigrants from the South.
They were poor.
They were anonymous.
And so they were considered justkind of like anonymous in
(12:31):
insignificant in their time, butthey matter to me.
And so I collected stuff andstories and did all this local
history research on them andgenealogy.
A couple of years ago, John andI were involved in trying to
prevent an old hotel from beingtorn down for an empty parking
lot.
And the people, the folks thatwere trying to do that told me
when researching this building,nobody significant ever lived
(12:55):
there.
Nothing significant everhappened.
The hotel had been an activehotel for years.
More recently, it was a boardinghouse full of lower income
people.
And that phrase peeved me deeplyand intrigued me because.
In my little world ofhistorians, we don't think that
about anybody now.
We realize that every human hasstories to tell and is
(13:18):
significant.
But I started thinking about thelarger public that I want to
engage with, and I still thinkthat's kind of a common idea,
that if you didn't leave behinda bunch of stories, or maybe you
didn't have any money, or youdidn't leave behind this
interesting story that's easilyfound, you could be cast off as
insignificant.
Like, how am I going to tellyour life?
So it was my mission to usethese women's lives that I found
(13:40):
to...
prove that guy wrong.
Basically.
It's a passion project, youknow?
So it's a creative way to tellwomen's history in the country,
but it's through these localstories.
Each chapter starts with anobject I found, which is
hopefully interesting, and thenexplores their life.
And I try to make it asinteresting as possible.
(14:01):
And spending significant timesaway from academia, I've gotten
better at being a little weirdin my writing.
There's a lot of questions init, like, what does she feel
here?
What does she do here?
And I think you just got to askthose questions because then
that gets you like in your likeseven year old mindset, right?
Where you're just like playingpretend and you're being
creative.
And that's, I think a huge goalin my life is to continue to do
(14:22):
that and get other people to dothat.
Yeah.
And honor these women's lives.
SPEAKER_00 (14:26):
That's awesome.
Anything else?
I don't know if you have anyquestions to jump in, Patrick.
Before you do, we mentioned thename John a few times.
Just to give the listeners somecontext.
I was just thinking about thatright now in my head.
I was like, I should probablysay something about.
So, John, you're referring toJohn Blatchford.
Yes, I am.
Who we've had as a guest on thepodcast.
And you guys can go back andlisten to one of those episodes.
(14:47):
He is part of Cohorts.
SPEAKER_02 (14:49):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (14:49):
And you guys are just like a building team of the
super friends, which we're goingto talk about in a
SPEAKER_02 (14:56):
minute.
Yes.
Yeah, so he runs cohorts andthen renovates historic, we
joke, like long abandonedbuildings.
The first one he renovated hadbeen vacant since 1977.
We met in an old building andfell in love in an old building
and live in an old building now.
There's like a theme here.
Our poor kid is probably like,oh my God.
SPEAKER_00 (15:17):
This kid grew up loving buildings.
I
SPEAKER_02 (15:20):
hope so.
We always joke he's going tolike the opposite.
Like everything new, you know,that's how kids are, right?
SPEAKER_01 (15:26):
But yes, that's That's who I'm referring to.
OK, cool.
So wait, so in this book, eachchapter is like a different
story, like a different woman.
Just from Cincinnati or fromthat one building?
From
SPEAKER_02 (15:37):
Cincinnati.
Yep.
So an example was I found an oldplate from a Irish famine
survivor.
She brought it over with her,remarkably, how the heck this
thing survived.
And she lived in various partsof downtown Cincinnati and
further out.
And so I kind of traced thisplate throughout.
And that tells you a lot aboutearly Cincinnati history that
(15:59):
early 1800s stuff mid 1800s ittells you about women in that
time period it tells you aboutimmigrants and I'm always down
to talk about these themes alater chapter looks at a working
class seamstress little stuffshe left and you might think
like what does that lady have toshare right but she if you dig a
little and you get creativethese people had all the
(16:20):
emotions we have they livedtheir full lives you know just
because she didn't marry or havemoney right she was you know a
badass in her own right and soI'm trying to honor these people
and one thing we did too is wetried to find each of their
graves and that was reallymeaningful to go find them I
found all of them but I thinkone
SPEAKER_00 (16:38):
wow that's very impressive very cool well that
kind of transitions basicallyvery well talking about like the
stories of these people andeverything that you've gone
through for digging through allthis information and putting it
all together the case forpreservation right so why does
it matter obviously I mean Ifeel like there's a lot of like
you've talked a lot aboutstories and everything but is
(16:59):
that your basic case for whyhistoric preservation matters is
like to carry on that legacy ofthese people
SPEAKER_02 (17:04):
yeah I think that's a great question I feel like
depending on which hat I have onthere are a lot of answers and
that is a I think that bodeswell for historic preservation
so when I have my historian haton or my I feel like visiting
Europe hat on it's like yesbecause place gets embedded with
meaning over time and there'ssomething about the human soul
(17:24):
that craves that whether or notevery one of us can articulate
that that is what we like to goto Paris and places like that,
right?
And so I think it's honoringsomething deeply cultural and
artistic and deeply human aboutus.
But there are so many otherreasons.
I think it is an excellentcommunity development tool.
(17:46):
It's an excellent economicdevelopment tool.
It is much better for theenvironment than building
something new.
It is a very flexible artprogram these days.
I teach my students about thehistory of historic preservation
and where it's at now is it's areally exciting moment there are
very creative ways that we canemploy it it's not this must be
(18:09):
a house museum you know likethank goodness we have evolved
from that that adaptive reuse isreally at an all-time high I
think it's yeah financiallyenvironmentally culturally in
many ways really good
SPEAKER_00 (18:21):
for some people that might not might not have an
understanding like it might beobvious for some but yeah the
environmental impact yeah canyou touch on that a little bit
like what you specifically meanby having an environmental
impact with preservation
SPEAKER_02 (18:32):
yes years ago I asked my friend Brad Cooper who
would be a great person to everinterview he's a local architect
to come in he's a lead architectin particular to come into my
students my class and lecture tomy students the history of like
lead and how architecture hasbeen influenced by environmental
(18:53):
perspectives over time and hehad this thing he said that
always stuck with me it isalways is better for the
environment to fix something upthan to build new.
And so I've always thought thatcaptures that well.
But in my own experience andfrom my understanding, it is
(19:13):
often financially, butdefinitely like more
sustainable, it's better interms of conservation, to take
something that's existing interms of the waste that you
produce and new constructionversus old, that's going to be
less.
In terms of your carbonfootprint, that is going to be
less.
There's also just something likeit's already physically there.
So you're not bringing in a lotof new equipment, new materials.
(19:37):
I also love how, depends on whattime period you're talking
about.
I think this building is a greatexample.
Most of Over the Rhine'sarchitecture is a great example.
These buildings were built byfolks that were really smart and
they are almost like sustainablelittle capsules in and of
themselves, right?
In ways that a lot of newerbuildings like have to work a
little bit harder with thingslike heating and air and
(19:59):
ventilation.
I think that's beautiful.
You know, the high ceilings inold buildings, the use of
transoms and large double hungwindows, casements to make them
really, really airtight,plaster, brick, all these things
that breathe well, right?
Those are very, very sustainablematerials that I think speak to
an earlier conservation ethic.
that we strayed from in the1950s and so new buildings are
(20:25):
great too but I think like ifthere is absolutely an
environmental argument torenovate what's there amongst
many other arguments yeah
SPEAKER_00 (20:34):
you teased it earlier when we were talking
about different buildings aboutCincinnati but could you you
said that you knew a little bitabout the history of this the
place that we're literallysitting in right now
SPEAKER_02 (20:43):
I love this building
SPEAKER_00 (20:43):
would you care to share a little bit
SPEAKER_02 (20:45):
yes okay so I am obsessed with immigration
history because I think that'sjust such a beauty.
Like, what a crazy story.
You get on a boat or a plane nowor whatever, and you come to a
new country, wherever that is.
Like, what gumption.
And it breeds fascinatingstories.
So one of the things that peoplethat had been here a little bit
longer did around the turn ofthe 20th century was they built
(21:07):
these things called settlementhouses to try to help immigrants
assimilate.
So around 1900 was this highpoint for people coming into the
U.S.
from Europe and Asia andparticularly parts of Europe
Europe that English would not betheir first language, Italy and
Russia and places like that.
And so this was a really commontactic in Chicago and New York,
(21:28):
but also here that we're goingto build these houses and
they're going to offer likeEnglish language classes.
They're going to offer likebilliards for men.
They're going to offerkindergarten for kids and
daycare for kids.
So it's like a one stop shop forlike learn English, get a job,
have a like fun, healthy placeto hang out at night, bring your
kids.
And this was one of them.
(21:48):
And the other thing that theywere, a lot of them were, this
is a movement largely run bywomen.
They really cared particularlyabout helping young women.
They were very concerned thatyoung women that were single
would come here and be easilyled astray, that the cities
were, you know, kind ofterrifying for them, right?
(22:11):
And so they particularly wantedto offer classes and like fun
activities for young singlewomen and occasionally boarding
for them.
And as I understand it, thatyoung women also lived here that
were working in a place likeover the Rhine or downtown.
And they wanted to make surethat they were living in kind of
like a, a safe, um, wholesomeplace surrounded by other young
women and run by kind of likematrons, you know, that could
(22:32):
kind of take care of them.
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
Gotcha.
Cool.
Does this building have like aname?
Like you said, you love thisbuilding.
Is that, is there a nickname forit or is it just the address
that.
SPEAKER_02 (22:40):
So I've always heard it referred to as the Emanuel
community center, even backthen.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (22:45):
Um, which I think is still what people refer to it
today in my Would you all call
SPEAKER_01 (22:50):
it?
I just call it the office.
SPEAKER_00 (22:54):
I feel like an idiot.
Stole the words right out of mymouth.
Say the name again one more
SPEAKER_02 (22:59):
time.
Emanuel Community Center orEmanuel Settlement House.
SPEAKER_00 (23:03):
Emanuel Community Center.
I wonder if that's written orprinted or etched somewhere on
the building.
Yeah, that would be
SPEAKER_02 (23:09):
cool
SPEAKER_00 (23:10):
to see.
Yeah, I would love to check thatout.
Emanuel, I forgot it
SPEAKER_02 (23:13):
again.
Yeah, Emanuel Community Centeror Settlement House.
I think there's a matchingoutside that says something.
the effect of like four youngwomen.
You can see that.
And then I think I'm gettingthis correct.
As the building aged and we wentlike further into like the 1950s
and 60s and Over the Rhinebecame more like Appalachian and
African-American, it continuedto act as like a community
(23:34):
center and offered services forthose families.
It just has a really beautifulhistory.
And I think it's just like in aseamless row of buildings.
It's the park.
I mean, it's a great office.
SPEAKER_00 (23:47):
It is a beautiful place to have an office.
and now we know that we're apart of a historically
significant...
I didn't appreciate it untilnow.
We're going to put that on thepodcast art for every episode.
It's recorded in a very historiclocation.
Is it fair to say that youthink...
You might be biased.
I feel like we're all maybe alittle bit biased about
Cincinnati, but it's got to beup there in terms of United
(24:09):
States cities that have a lot ofdeep culture and a lot of really
awesome historical buildings.
Where is it on the list for
SPEAKER_02 (24:17):
you?
John and I talked about this Allthe time.
We've lived in New York for aspell.
He's from New York.
So he always brings thisoutsider's perspective.
And I feel like maybe if youlive on the coast, you haven't
heard of it or some or you'veheard of it maybe, but you
haven't been here.
But we
SPEAKER_00 (24:30):
went to the Super Bowl once or twice, technically.
But I think
SPEAKER_02 (24:36):
like, wow.
Yeah.
I mean, A, it was an incrediblyhuge city back in the day.
Right.
Like very, very significant.
SPEAKER_01 (24:43):
Like in the 1800s.
In
SPEAKER_02 (24:45):
the 1800s, preceded Chicago and prominence was like
the city Thank you.
West of the Appalachians.
And I think that that importancelingers, you know, like you
could feel that you're right inthe old buildings, the culture
here, the freaking CSO is one ofthe oldest in the nation.
It's still so great, you know,and I feel like it's a city that
has had its struggles like somany American cities.
(25:07):
It's not unique in that, butyou're right.
Like it's old importancelingers, I think.
And it it also like has newimportance, like with Blink and
artworks, all the muralseverywhere.
I mean, the expanding bikelanes, all of the parks.
There are many aspects ofCincinnati that I think are
really important and prominentin the old school sense of that
(25:29):
word.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
Okay.
Yeah.
So what are some of the bighistoric buildings that
Cincinnati would most be wellknown for that have done a
really good job with the wholepreservation?
SPEAKER_02 (25:41):
I feel like the two that you mentioned, Music Hall
is a great example and theCincinnati Museum Center, I feel
like are probably...
two of the most famous and thoseare so interesting because
they're from very different timeperiods.
They look so different too.
They're in two differentneighborhoods.
SPEAKER_00 (25:58):
Let's talk about Music Hall first.
Then we're going to talk aboutthe second one after that.
Give us a little bit.
What's your coolest fun factabout Music Hall?
Not to make you go off the topof your head there.
SPEAKER_02 (26:13):
I love Music Hall.
I feel a little bit like I'm ina European city when I stand in
front of it.
It has that like old worldfeeling my understanding it's
built in the 1870s it's kind ofthat you know grand exhibition
hall and what's i think is socool about it is it's largely
retained that purpose like whichechoes your earlier point about
cincinnati's importance likeright we still need this magical
(26:36):
palace to house all these art umarts and cultural institutions
and events i have always foundit interesting as someone that
john always jokes that i likelike depressing history but, you
know, historians like peoplethat are not here anymore.
We're not too bothered by deadpeople.
(26:56):
So this area, when theriverfront was kind of the
early, you know, olddevelopment, and then we slowly
moved north, it was giant oldforest up here that was slowly
being cleared, and then reallyearly settlers came up this way.
Parts of what's underneath MusicHall and then Washington Park
(27:17):
was an old graveyard.
and particularly poorer folksthat couldn't afford maybe more
institutional burials so whenthey were doing the renovations
on music hall and in washingtonpark over the last you know
roughly 10 to 15 years they werestill exhuming bodies from that
and removing them and honoringthem so i think that's like it
(27:38):
just speaks to the layers in aplace and the different uses of
it and for those that areinterested in that music hall is
allegedly haunted by those thosefolks for those people that
believe in that wow but i thinkthat more objectively, that the
burial history there is reallybeautiful.
I'm always just so interested ingoing back in time, thinking
(28:00):
beyond that.
Then it was a dense forest usedby indigenous people.
That's a story we don't see inOver the Rhine told anywhere.
And that environmental history.
What were the old growth treesthat were here before they were
cleared?
I'm always interested in that.
Go back a little bit further andinvestigate those layers.
SPEAKER_00 (28:17):
Music Hall is one of the places where it's like when
i have friends or familyvisiting from out of town that's
one of the places that's alwayslike a checkbox like you got to
go walk through washington parkyou got to just stand in front
of it admire the beauty ifyou're here during one of those
times like blink i do think theydo a great job of highlighting
the building it's really it's areally really cool thing that
they do there anything elseanything on music hall anything
(28:38):
before we switch gears for justa
SPEAKER_01 (28:40):
smidge i saw the nutcracker there this past
christmas what'd you thinkwhat'd you think of the
nutcracker dude i like i so iknow the music from it i've
always wanted to see like a likea ballet like Like either that
or Swan Lake, basically.
And the music's great.
I was falling asleep the wholetime.
It was just like, hey, the chairwas comfy and the music was
(29:04):
relaxing.
And it was so boring.
But I'm
SPEAKER_00 (29:09):
glad that I experienced it.
Yeah, you got to sit in ahistoric building and witness
something that someone elseprobably witnessed.
Yeah.
You know, in that same place,like channel that energy.
SPEAKER_01 (29:19):
It was really cool.
Just to me, I wasn't superengaged by it, even though I
appreciated literally everythingabout it.
It's just like, I would goagain, like if they were going
to show another, you know,ballet or whatever there.
I would see another, because itgenuinely was relaxing.
But I can't, I'm not even goingto like pretend.
I was just on the edge of myseat.
SPEAKER_00 (29:40):
The gumdrops and all the beautiful Christmassy
stories, that doesn't fill youwith energetic excitement.
SPEAKER_01 (29:48):
It's a good vibe.
I really appreciate what thepeople are doing.
I love the music.
That really scratched the itch.
I was like, what is the songfrom the Nutcracker?
There's a bunch.
There's a couple others.
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
(30:10):
Yeah, that was a bunch.
Yeah.
Anyways, that was cool.
It was cool to see it there too.
Like this, you know, 150 yearold building.
SPEAKER_00 (30:16):
Yeah.
We do segments on the show.
Sometimes we talk about thehistory of buildings and I think
we got to make music call apriority.
Yeah.
Make that one, make that one anin-depth conversation.
That'd be very cool.
But I want to ask you aboutanother building.
Yes.
And this is very important rightnow.
Very important.
So we're recording this episodeon July 10th, 2020.
Patrick, I know that you knowwhy this day is significant.
(30:39):
Alyssa, do you know why this dayis significant?
SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
July 10th, no.
SPEAKER_00 (30:43):
July 10th, 2025.
The reason today is significantis because today there is a new
Superman movie in theaters.
I'm a huge...
I heard the producers laugh fromtwo walls.
I'm a huge comic book nerd.
I'm a huge Superman fan.
Love all the movies.
And I don't know if you knewthis.
I think you know this becausewe've talked about it before on
(31:04):
the show.
The Cincinnati Museum Center,the Union Terminal, was used as
the illustrative example for theHall of Justice in the Super
Friends cartoon in the 70s.
So if you go back and look atthe 1970s Super Friends comic,
whenever it's like, Meanwhile atthe Hall of Justice, they'll pan
over, and it's literally, it'sthe exact same design.
(31:25):
The rotunda, you can see the...
cascading water that comes downand like all the terminal pass
and it's a very art deco styleseries much like like Batman the
animated series and the Supermananimated series from back in the
day so I grew up loving the CMCand loving the museum because it
was like every time I went I waslike I was going to the Hall of
Justice today is a very big dayfor me because I'm seeing
(31:48):
Superman tonight and I'm takingthe day off work tomorrow and
I'm gonna see it again thisweekend probably maybe one or
two more times and yeah so withthe Cincinnati Museum Center
Union Terminal tons of historythere in my opinion it's the
best building on earth I thinkit's my favorite building it
fills me with such nostalgiathere but I would love to hear
your they
SPEAKER_01 (32:08):
supposedly filmed this new Superman
SPEAKER_00 (32:09):
movie oh yeah thank you that's a great point so they
filmed for they filmed for threedays I actually went to the set
of the production they walled itoff at the very end before you
get to the parking lot but youcould drive by and see the
camera rigs and everything soit's gonna be in the movie in
the live action yep exactly andshout out to Cincinnati County
the animal shelter, they ran afundraiser this weekend for the
(32:33):
4th of July where if you donatedor adopted a dog or a pet, you
were entered into a contest towin tickets to see Superman at
the Union Terminal in theOmniMax.
I did not win, but I donated, soshout out to Cincinnati Care.
I hope whoever went to that hada great time.
SPEAKER_02 (32:50):
That's amazing,
SPEAKER_00 (32:51):
all that.
When I see the Union Terminaltonight at the theater, I'm
going to stand up and clap.
SPEAKER_01 (32:58):
Wait, just...
I know this is like the finalday before you see it.
How many times have you seen thetrailer so far?
SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
Oh, my God.
Immeasurable amounts of times.
I'll put it on when I just feela little bit sad and I need to
get cheered up or whatever.
So I'll put that on.
I'm excited about the movie.
I like the Superman shirt, bythe way.
Thank you.
Yeah, rocking the Supermanshirt, the red chucks.
Yeah, it's a whole vibe.
But yeah, tell us about theUnion Terminal.
That's what I think.
There's just so much interestingto say about that building.
SPEAKER_02 (33:24):
Agreed, yeah.
My mind first went to, I lovehow many films are...
filmed in Cincinnati there'slike so I do a lot of tax
historic tax credit consultingand the same folks that run that
in Columbus do the movie taxcredits and Cincinnati is often
the spot for places to film andI I love that about Cincinnati
(33:46):
that is just so cool
SPEAKER_00 (33:47):
yeah shout out to film Cincinnati I know a lot of
people in films and a lot ofpeople that are involved in like
production around the area andit's very very very very cool to
see Cincy getting attention
SPEAKER_02 (33:57):
agree yeah and that's like a world I'm always
interested in learning moreabout.
I love Cincinnati Museum Center.
I feel like I have thosenostalgic memories as a kid too
where you go there and you canstand at one end and your friend
can stand at the other end.
It's a giant dome for those ofyou that haven't been in there.
I wrote about Cincinnati MuseumCenter in the Insignificant book
(34:20):
I was telling you guys whereit's looking at the women.
I think it's a beautiful exampleof places that change over So I
didn't know this, but what wasthere before was this really old
park called Lincoln Park.
It was one of the first in thecity and it serviced the West
End neighborhood, which was thenin that era in the mid 1800s,
(34:41):
like growing, very immigrant,increasingly Russian and Jewish.
And they needed a park becauseeveryone needs a park.
Right.
And then in the 1920s, theydemolished that and they widened
what was called Laurel Avenue,which is now Ezra Charles, to
make this big promenade to leadto Lincoln Park.
to a huge new railroad center.
(35:01):
But in doing that, producingthis beautiful historic building
that I love, that you love, wedemolished a lot.
And so it's so interesting thatthe 1920s and 30s is the
beginning of that urban renewaltime period where we demolish a
lot of urban core infrastructurebecause we think new is better.
(35:21):
And so Union Terminal is a greatexample of we demolished it and
for sure displaced people, whichwe need to account for, but also
you produce something that hasan intention and a good a giant
train station that was used thatway for years right and now is a
state of the art museum multiplemuseums Omnimax one of the best
archives in the city so it's
SPEAKER_00 (35:42):
and still trains technically
SPEAKER_02 (35:43):
yeah
SPEAKER_00 (35:44):
take the Amtrak absolutely
SPEAKER_02 (35:46):
John did that once
SPEAKER_00 (35:46):
it took him forever the Amtrak oh you can take a
train from the Union Terminalstill I did not know that
straight up yeah it's still acool experience if you ever get
the chance to take a train fromthe Union Terminal I had no idea
SPEAKER_01 (35:57):
that that still was a thing
SPEAKER_00 (35:58):
Okay, that's cool.
Cool, yeah.
It's a beautiful building.
It's awesome.
That's in which one of yourbooks you said?
SPEAKER_02 (36:04):
The insignificant one, yeah.
I just think it gets you tothink about, you know, nothing
is just black and white, right?
Everything is nuanced.
And so even when you're talkingabout something like historic
preservation and you're arguing,well, this should be preserved,
but this shouldn't, you know,you realize the subjectivity is
involved in it, right?
So if you're building this grandnew train station that we all
love, and for very validreasons, you know, you can still
(36:27):
acknowledge...
the stuff that preceded it,right?
The beginning of the demolitionof the West End, which is a huge
part of Cincinnati history thata lot of folks, particularly of
color in this neighborhood inthe West End, feel very
viscerally.
And I think it's a good exampleof like the messiness of it.
And I think a lot about thatstuff just because I'm employed
on and fixing up a lot ofbuildings in Over the Rhine,
(36:50):
which is a neighborhoodundergoing a lot of change right
now.
And it's race-based change, it'sclass change.
And so I think about like weightof that a lot I guess and the
messiness of it it's not it'snot wholly good it's not wholly
bad it's that uncomfortable grayarea that you kind of like work
SPEAKER_00 (37:06):
through yeah so what are some common challenges that
preservationists face likeobviously there must be a lot of
there's some barriers to entrybut then there's also it's got
to be things that you deal withon a daily weekly basis about
all this kind of stuff so I mean
SPEAKER_02 (37:19):
yes I think it kind of runs the gamut I mean it can
be something as simple as likefinding good craftspeople that
can restore or restore replicatea particular section of a
building or a feature that youwant.
Finding a good company that canrestore old wood double hung
windows has been a challenge forJohn and I, for all my historic
(37:41):
tax credit clients, things likethat.
Just because some of that crafthas been lost over time.
There's still plenty ofcompanies that do it.
You just have to dig a littleand find them.
Yeah, I think financingchallenges is a really big part
of I'm sure John can talk atlength much more about that.
(38:02):
I know a bit about that world.
You know, preservation isinteresting because it is, on
the one hand, there are so manythings about it that make it
more sustainable and in someways more affordable than I'm
going to demolish this and buildsomething new.
Because that involves so muchmore versus an existing shell.
(38:23):
Right.
And so there are things aboutit, if you take aspects of the
building and you're reusingthem, that will ultimately save
you money, which I think is ahuge misconception about
preservation, that it's alwaysgoing to cost you gobs of money.
That said, to contradict myself,this is the messiness of it.
It's a lot to invest in abuilding that sat there vacant
for five decades, particularlyin a climate where you don't
(38:46):
know the interest rate.
You don't know about inflation.
You don't know where thesupplies are going to come in.
If you're talking about tariffsright now, regardless of how you
feel about them, there's justthe messy reality of like, oh, I
don't know if I can get thatwood or those refrigerator And
so that all those things slowlystart to snowball and dissuade a
lot of people from wanting toget involved in an old building
(39:08):
and renovate it.
Yeah.
So the part that I kind of comein is filling those financing
gaps and easing that burden alittle bit.
There's the federal and thenOhio State Historic Preservation
Tax Credit Program, which is areally wonderful program that
takes a lot, some of the riskout of it for the men and women
doing those projects.
(39:28):
Most of my clients are just kindof smaller bootstrap teams.
There are definitely largecompanies that renovate old
buildings, of course, andutilize these things, but they
make it possible for smallerteams teams that maybe don't
come from a lot of financialresources to embark on that with
less risk, I would say.
SPEAKER_00 (39:49):
Okay.
I would imagine that educationalso plays a huge role.
And I'm sure that, I mean...
you know, I'm sure you feel thatin what you've put out in terms
of your, your books, yourresearch, these events that
you've done, but like educatingthe people, you know, maybe
catching someone's spark ofcreativity and then they go on
to, to be involved in the, inthe process as well.
SPEAKER_02 (40:11):
Yeah.
I think it's like a beautifulcommunity of like-minded people,
which you are all, you both likehistory, right?
You care about old spaces, likethat in and of itself, it's all
you need.
Like, it's just, it's like a bugyou catch, I guess.
But yes, I...
I think once you just kind ofexplain it a little bit, people
(40:31):
start to care from my studentswho are largely 17 and 18 years
old, you know?
And like, so we're just thisidea of like, do you have a
connection to an old place?
That's a harder question to aska 17 year old, you know?
But I think when you explainwhat preservation actually is
and in all of its messiness andthen explain, get them to think
about some place, it can be asold or as not old as they want.
(40:55):
And just like, what does thismean to you?
then that lights the fire.
And I think the challenge thenis to do that with like a public
audience at a museum or at apublic gathering, a bar or
whatever.
SPEAKER_00 (41:06):
Walking tours.
SPEAKER_02 (41:06):
A walking tour, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:08):
Do you still host any, do you still do those on a
regular basis?
SPEAKER_02 (41:11):
So I wrote them, but I don't tend to give
SPEAKER_00 (41:14):
them.
Oh,
SPEAKER_02 (41:15):
okay, gotcha.
So I wrote them for, I worked onthem for Friendly Market, but I
especially wrote the Over theRhine Museum walking tours.
If you're familiar with the Overthe Rhine Museum, it's a
UNKNOWN (41:27):
you
SPEAKER_02 (41:28):
If you've been to the New York Tenement Museum,
it's in New York in the LowerEast Side.
And maybe the 90s or so, thesewomen got this idea that they
wanted to design a new kind ofmuseum where if you go into it,
each of the rooms in this oldtenement building were like you
were going back in time into adifferent era.
SPEAKER_01 (41:48):
So it's
SPEAKER_02 (41:49):
like Little Italy in like 1903 or 1960 New York or
whatever, et cetera.
And so that gets you to thinkabout different immigrant groups
that came through.
Yeah.
Vietnamese, Italians, etc.
So Ann Steinert, who I mentionedearlier, and some partners in
Cincinnati thought that was acool idea to do for Over the
Rhine.
So this is a great example tokind of answer your question of
(42:11):
just people that like care abouteducation and got that bug of
storytelling.
So they bought a building nearFindlay Market and they're doing
this.
They researched the heck out ofit.
And it has this reflectivehistory of Over the Rhine.
It was like Germans at one pointand then Czechs, some Eastern
Europeans, maybe some Jewishimmigrants later on.
Appalachians and AfricanAmericans it totally reflects
(42:32):
the history of the neighborhoodand they're designing it so that
you go into like this bedroomand it's like over the Rhine in
1960 and this is what theirkitchen would have looked like
and then over the Rhine in 1952etc and so I designed walking
tours for them is kind of howI'm looping back to that but the
(42:53):
walking tours reflect thatmission and just reflect
something I share with Anne andthose people of How do you bring
alive all the different eras ofa neighborhood and of a place?
How do you pay attention to allkinds of people that live there?
Not just like maybe the groupsthat we tend to pay attention to
the most or men.
Pay attention to all thedifferent stories.
(43:13):
And people like it, right?
Like the New York TenementMuseum is one of the most
popular museums in New YorkCity, which is saying something,
you know?
Yeah, I'm always so fascinatedby it.
Like we like old places.
We like the meaning that'sembedded.
We just don't always like...
have the words to articulate it.
And I have too many words, youknow?
SPEAKER_00 (43:31):
It's awesome.
No, it's a cool concept.
I'm definitely adding that tothe list of Cincinnati things
that I've not done that I needto check out.
So it's a good list.
So looking ahead.
at the future of preservation wegot a couple more questions to
ask you thank you so much forhanging out with us it's been
truly i think really fascinatingdiscussion so how is
preservation changing andmodernizing as we as we move
(43:51):
into the this new era this newage the world's constantly
changing obviously so withincincinnati or just the the way
that preservation is going ingeneral i mean like tech design
storytelling like i mean likewhat's the next decade of
preservation look like in youropinion
SPEAKER_02 (44:08):
yeah lots of things to think about there i think
it's in a really in some ways areally healthy place so ever
since the 60s and 70s we havegotten to this place where we
should save this old buildingbut creatively reuse it as maybe
it was an old warehouse butwe're going to turn into
apartments or it's going to be anew market you know and that was
(44:29):
a major feat for Americans towrap their minds around that.
And so I feel like we've had,we've seen a maturation of that
and we're like, okay, let'scontinue with that energy.
Like this is an old buildingwe're going to save.
Like, Oh, what are the coolthings we could do with it?
Yeah.
We're also at that continuinginto an era where we're, more
and diverse people areinterested in living in urban
(44:51):
core neighborhoods again wherewe're preserving things we are
taking vacant buildings puttingbodies and businesses back into
them preservation is key to allof that we have strong
preservation incentive programsin this country that I'm very
proud of at a federal level.
But the teethiest stuff is atthe state and local level.
(45:13):
And Cincinnati has a really goodstuff here.
Ohio has one of the besthistoric tax credit programs in
the country.
And I never thought I would careabout taxes in my life.
But these are programs that forthose of you that don't know
you, you apply for them.
You can win them.
They're very competitive, butthey essentially for qualifying
expenses, things that most workyou do to an old building, you
(45:37):
get so many cents back on thedollar up to a certain
percentage.
So it's 25% in Ohio.
Sounds technical and kind ofboring, but it's huge because
it's essentially like you couldget 25% of your costs back as a
direct tax cash refund.
So it is huge.
That actually matters for thestate of preservation because
the state program has beenaround since the early aughts.
(46:00):
The federal legislation thatbacks that up has been around
since the 70s and 80s.
That has more than anythinghelped preservation in this
country and so the continuanceof those programs is very key
they are often threatened byfolks that are interested in
cutting back programs which isunfortunate because it's a
program that has tons and tonsand tons of evidence that it
(46:24):
works yeah and it's all aboutproving economic and community
development impact to win thesethings so it's a jobs growth
thing it's an income tax incomething it's It's a tool that
pretty much wherever you are onthe political spectrum, you can
get behind.
So it's frustrating when theyget attacked because it's
usually by folks that don'tunderstand how they work.
(46:45):
But in terms of thinking aheadto the next decade with
preservation, supporting andmaking sure those programs live
on is absolutely key.
I think in terms of like tech, Idon't think too much about that.
You know, as a historian, I tendto be a little bit of a Luddite
with stuff like that.
But John thinks the constructiondevelopment guy thinks a lot
about that and I think there isroom for technological
(47:08):
innovation with constructiontake maybe some of the risk out
of it maybe that said I think Idon't know I also just think
like you know spending a ton oftime in my 20s with like
contractors and subcontractorslike plumbers those are jobs
that I would argue are supposedto be done by humans right and
like I think that's kind ofbeautiful
SPEAKER_00 (47:30):
yeah it's gonna be ever evolving ever changing I
SPEAKER_02 (47:33):
think that would be good I think if it's ever
evolving That means it'shealthy.
(48:04):
are also very, very vitallyimportant.
And I could talk at length aboutthat, but that's super
important.
SPEAKER_00 (48:10):
Awesome.
Patrick, any last questionsbefore we start wrapping it up?
SPEAKER_01 (48:16):
Is there a building...
in Cincinnati or anywhere in theUS that you want to preserve at
all costs?
Like if you had to pick onebuilding?
SPEAKER_02 (48:25):
You know, I saw that question on your script and I
thought about it and I was like,hmm, because it changes all the
time.
What
SPEAKER_00 (48:32):
do you mean?
Patrick totally just came upwith that.
Sorry,
SPEAKER_02 (48:36):
sorry.
I think it's a good question.
If you could tell from my books,my research interests kind of go
ping pong-y all over the place.
So I think my answer to thatquestion changes all the time.
This This is not in Cincinnati,but I think this is cool.
I read a bit about thisrecently.
In the South, there are oldcabins that sharecroppers lived
(48:57):
in.
So folks that wereAfrican-Americans recently freed
from slavery built and lived inthese very simple wood cabins,
sometimes lean-tos.
They had, you know, gottenfreedom or like won that and
then were stuck farming plots ofland that were not their own.
They were in these kind ofcyclical...
(49:17):
They were in cycles of poverty.
But all of that's to say, someof these old sharecroppers'
cabins that are from the 1870s,1880s are still there.
And they speak to this historythat is so like literally
disappearing, right?
Most of those people migratednorth to places like Cincinnati
to the West End to make a bettergo of life.
(49:38):
And that impressive feat, theyleft behind these old cabins
where they had tried to eck outa living and in the most
impressive way.
And there's this effort rightnow by the national park system
pairing up with African-Americanpreservationists in the South to
save them, which I think is socool and badass, especially
because these are like verysimple and wood structures and
(49:58):
wood does not tend to last, youknow?
And, and there, it just kind ofspeaks to my interest in like a
place that you think is likeinsignificant is actually deeply
significant.
Like somebody spent their wholelife here and like tried to make
a go of things and their lifespeaks to like slavery and the
civil war and reconstruction.
And like, we should definitelygive a shit about that and I
think that's so cool thatthey're they're trying to save
(50:20):
them I was reading about that sothat's my answer for today
SPEAKER_00 (50:22):
I'll probably change tomorrow yeah that's beautiful
all right Alyssa thank you somuch for joining us this has
been an awesome discussion we'lldefinitely love to have you back
if you ever want to come backand hang out and talk buildings
with us or our nutcracker reviewapparently when we go see that
in the theater at the music hallbut yeah thank you guys for
listening to another episode ofthe Rentish podcast we can be
(50:43):
found everywhere you get yourpodcasts Spotify Apple give us a
review give us a rate Follow us.
Give us a comment.
Tell us how much you love theshow.
Email questions attherentishpod.com.
If you have any questions ortopic suggestions or anything
you want to hear us talk about,stay and subscribe for new
episodes.
And again, shout out to Alyssa.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show.
(51:03):
It was awesome to talk with you.
And yeah, I've been Zach.
That's been Patrick.
And we'll see you next time.
SPEAKER_02 (51:10):
Thank you.
What's going on, everybody?
My name is Zach, and I'm herewith my co-host, Patrick.
What up?
You told me to go, and then youstarted drinking your soda.
So that was bad timing on yourpart, Mr.
Producer.
We're your hosts for the RentishPodcast.
Welcome in the podcast that'sall about rental properties,
hosted by two guys that work inthe real estate industry and
(00:22):
kind of know what they'retalking about.
but
SPEAKER_01 (00:24):
mostly don't
SPEAKER_00 (00:25):
sip.
Great job, Patrick.
You nailed the second one.
I'll give you a two out of 10 onthe first one, but a nine out of
10 on the second.
Okay.
So you did a great job.
So yeah, mostly we don't, you'reright.
Which is why I think you're allgonna have fun listening to us
talk to experts, learning alongwith us, or just laughing about
how little we know.
But we're gonna learn somethingtoday, Patrick.
How about that?
I'm excited.
You're excited?
SPEAKER_01 (00:45):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
Because we're joined by a very special guest.
We've had a few episodes in thepast where it's just a lot of me
and Patrick just kind ofshooting the breeze and kind of
guessing about properties andabout buildings, but now it's
real.
Now it's official.
We've got someone here that'sgonna be able to educate us, I
think, on some really awesomehistoric preservation of modern
America And some cool stuffabout the place that we're
(01:08):
recording too, Cincinnati.
So we're joined today by AlyssaMcClanahan, who is a historian,
preservationist, and authorwhose work explores the
intersection of architecture,memory, and justice.
She's written over 100place-based building histories,
developed interpretive contentfor museums, led inclusive
walking tours, and designedstorytelling-based preservation
(01:29):
projects across the country.
What a resume.
Quite the resume.
Quite the resume.
Alyssa, thank you for coming onto The Rentish Pod.
Thank
SPEAKER_02 (01:37):
you so much for having me.
That makes me sound far moreimpressive than I am.
That was a very kind intro.
SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
No, I'm so glad that you're here and that you've
decided to take some time totalk to Patrick and I about some
cool buildings and some coolfacts.
And I'm sure we're going to havea cool little discussion here.
But I don't know.
Tell us a little bit about you.
Tell us what's your story.
What brought you to this placehere
SPEAKER_02 (01:58):
today?
Yes, that's a great question.
I have always loved old places,I think, ever since I was a
little kid and just stories theytell.
So I think with that as thebackground, I was in grad school
for history, like with a capitalH, you know, like to be a
professor or something.
And I kind of realized I didn'twant to do that.
(02:20):
I wanted to work more on theground, work with the public,
work with people that were likedealing with history in a more
messy, visceral way.
So when I was in grad school, Imet my husband and we got
involved in historicpreservation, like activism,
volunteering, uh, publicitycampaigns to save an old
building from just being torndown for a parking lot,
(02:41):
something that felt like itdidn't make a lot of sense.
He bought his first oldbuilding.
We worked on it together.
I then kind of tumbled into abeautiful career, beautiful not
because of my own work, butbecause of the opportunities
I've gotten to have in historicpreservation consulting.
So particularly historicpreservation tax credit
(03:01):
consulting.
And then from there, spending alot of time dealing with
singular places.
What can we do with them?
What's the story that they tell?
How to retell that in anadaptive, reused way?
I think I made some connectionswith community organizations
that were interested in, we havean old building, we have an old
neighborhood.
(03:21):
How can you help us storytellthis in an inclusive, creative
way that would make ordinaryfolks like you and me care about
it and want to go explore thatplace?
And so I have a toe inside of auniversity.
I I teach at UC Blue Ash.
I'm very grateful for that.
I love the students.
I teach urban and environmentalhistory, place-based history,
(03:43):
trying to get like kiddos tocare about places.
But I mostly like to, again, bekind of on the ground of a
community, like dealing witheveryday people and what are the
stories that surround us?
What are the different ways thatpeople remember the past?
Kind of deal with all thosemessy questions.
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
That's beautiful.
It's very poetic.
You can tell that you have apassion for the history of these
places, which is why it would becool to kind of like dig a
little deeper into some of thembut okay yeah in terms of this
just a question off the batabout teaching and about like
getting other people to reallycare about the buildings that
you care about do you find thatit's pretty easy to get someone
(04:21):
to really feel that same sort ofexcitement that you might feel
about a building like being ableto share that story is that
something do you feel like thatconnection is easily made for
you
SPEAKER_02 (04:29):
I think so it's different in the classroom
versus like out in the quoteunquote real world but I feel
like the same maybe tactics kindof be employed where it's like,
what, what's the creative likeoutlet that we're going to get
people to just like be able togo back in time and imagine
like, Oh, being here in thesixties or the 1860s, you know,
you just got to like kind ofcare a little bit, uh, just give
(04:52):
a shit to use the phrase, youknow, um, employ our empathy.
Um, you know, for students, it'slike, let me show you an
awesome, large format, old, oldphoto of this place.
Right.
And I find that for a publicaudience, like, um, That, over
words, any day is going to getsomebody to care a little bit
more about a place.
There's another awesome localhistorian here, Ann Steinert,
(05:14):
who had this awesome project acouple years ago where she would
take a scene from the city andfind an old photograph from that
same vantage.
And she got permission from thecity, like permits and
everything, to temporarilyinstall them as though they were
like road signs.
And so you could look like, oh,Central Parkway today, flashback
120 years.
It's the canal, but it's theexact same perspective And you
(05:36):
would just see people, maybelike to be a bit stereotypical,
someone that you would think,maybe they're not that
interested in history, right?
They're down here to see theReds ball game or whatever.
And they're stopping and they'relooking at it.
And they're like talking totheir 12-year-old about it.
And that is like beautiful,accessible public history right
there, right?
And I always love that projectof hers.
(05:56):
So I find stuff like thatinvigorates imaginations.
SPEAKER_01 (06:00):
I was going to ask, because that sign example that
you mentioned is reallyinteresting to me.
What are some other ways besidesobviously teaching, maybe
besides like putting up thesigns?
What are some other ways thatyou get those stories out there
for folks who might not beseeking them to learn about?
SPEAKER_02 (06:14):
Yeah.
I have found like anything to dowith like a walking tour,
anything to get the body movinga little bit and get them
physically into an old spacereally does the trick.
I also like to be a little bitodd or creative with like
collaborations.
Like who could I pair up with inthe city that has nothing to do
(06:35):
with history but they have askill set that I totally lack
where they could help me come upwith like, not even just like,
here's my idea, please help meexecute it.
But they'll help me come up withthe idea because they like think
about things totally differentthan a historian.
So I've worked with a lot oflike local artists to come up
with weird ways to produce artor other ways to story tell.
(06:58):
John and I were involved in amagazine years ago that was just
all about like, how do we tellunder the radar developer's
stories and the buildingsthey're working on the stories
that are there that no one elseis reading and then by working
on the magazine you're workingwith like all sorts of new
characters that I would nevernormally work about and then
(07:20):
that gets them to care about thestories and you learn from them
one of the things I was involvedat with Finley Market was some
public art Cincinnati has such abeautiful rich tradition with
artworks of these public muralseverywhere I feel like that's
another great example like let'spaint a scene let's imagine a
scene right and then yeah justweird things I did a Pendleton
(07:41):
art show years ago where we gota group of folks together that
had been in old buildings andcollected various found objects
over the years and we did an artshow of like this is an old
bottle I found and like whatstories can it tell like whose
hands possibly held this rightand that it was just weird stuff
like that
SPEAKER_01 (08:00):
yeah
SPEAKER_02 (08:01):
I'm always up for the weird thing because it
usually means somebody is goingto care and I'm going to get to
meet fascinating people that areway smarter than me, that know
how to do all sorts of things
SPEAKER_00 (08:09):
I don't.
SPEAKER_02 (08:11):
That's what I'm after in life.
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
Yeah, stuff all over the spectrum there.
But in terms of like, you are anauthor.
Yes.
We talked about that in yourintro.
You got a couple things herethat I did want to help plug.
Oh, thank you.
Zimmer, The Movement ThatDefeated a Nuclear Power Plant.
That's the whole title.
Is that your first publishedwork?
That's the second book.
That's your second one.
Is the first one Finley Marketof Cincinnati History?
(08:33):
Good guess.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I don't know.
Tell us about the process oflike actually like it must be so
much time and effort andresearch poured into making
these books and publishing them.
SPEAKER_02 (08:45):
Yes, it is, because I think that's the way it should
be.
Right.
If you're going to undergo ahistorical research project like
that's what people should trusthistorians to do well, like it's
going to be rigorously researchas objective as possible.
So I like that.
Like this is going to be acouple of years of your life
type of mentality because it'slike, well, that's what you were
(09:05):
trained to do.
You need to do that.
Um, and I am a very un impatientperson with everything else in
my life, but that I can get downto look in some sources for many
years.
Um, but yeah, so I was hired in2018 by the corporation for
Finley market to do thoseplace-based histories of all the
buildings that surround themarket and up and down Elman
(09:28):
race streets.
They were interested in more anda more inclusive understanding
of the market areas past, um,including like immigrants and
African Americans that had spenttime there.
And they were going to use thatto kind of drum up for their
business, for the market in agood way, just like better
storytelling.
Let's tell everybody's versionof Finley Market.
(09:48):
I finished that, which resultedin some cool stuff for the
market.
And I was like, I have all thisresearch.
And so I decided to turn it intoa book using this method I
learned in school.
It's called micro history.
And the idea behind it is like,let me take a singular thing or
place and like blow, use it as alens into a larger history.
(10:10):
So I could use your shoe tolargely explore the shoe
industry or the history of thegarment industry or the history
of labor or something like that,you know?
And so it's like, I'm going totake a singular object that's
really relatable to people anddo that.
So Finley market is interestingbecause I feel like a lot of
people in the city love it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:30):
They don't, Exactly know why they love it.
Maybe they like to go there.
Maybe they like the oldbuildings around it.
It feels like Europe.
I've heard all these things, butthey don't know exactly why.
And so I wanted to investigate,like I wanted to offer the
history of the market to themand sneakily tell them the
larger history of cities, ofurban core neighborhoods through
(10:53):
a beloved place to them.
And that was a sneaky way for meto get at larger things that I
think some people have a hardtime with, like the importance
of of immigration and race incities and racism in cities and
white flight and how governmentshelped build cities and then
stopped and now they'rereinvesting in them and all
these things that urbanhistorians know a lot about but
(11:14):
the everyday public doesn't knowwhy over their own experienced
population growth and not growthand now regrowth and so it's my
sneaky way to do that that's thegoal I'm not sure if it did that
but that's the goal that's coolI
SPEAKER_00 (11:28):
would imagine that I would love to read the book I
mean, I'm very interested inCincinnati history.
Huge Cincinnati.
I've lived here my entire life.
So it's a very passionate thingfor me.
It's part of the reason I stillstay here is that the culture,
the history and all that stuff.
So definitely want to check thatout.
That's very cool.
And you have an upcoming booktoo, Insignificant.
You want to tell us a little bitabout that as well?
SPEAKER_02 (11:49):
Yes.
So spending a lot of my last, Idon't know, 15 years and very
long abandoned, very dustybuildings with my husband and
friends.
I have collected...
As much as I could, anything Icould get my hands on, something
that I physically found in thebuilding or I found digitized by
researching the building.
(12:09):
And I particularly wanted tocollect stories of women because
women do not get their due whenit comes to the history of
places, buildings, real estatetoday.
And most of the women that livedin these buildings I've spent
time on were immigrants ormigrants from the South.
They were poor.
They were anonymous.
And so they were considered justkind of like anonymous in
(12:31):
insignificant in their time, butthey matter to me.
And so I collected stuff andstories and did all this local
history research on them andgenealogy.
A couple of years ago, John andI were involved in trying to
prevent an old hotel from beingtorn down for an empty parking
lot.
And the people, the folks thatwere trying to do that told me
when researching this building,nobody significant ever lived
(12:55):
there.
Nothing significant everhappened.
The hotel had been an activehotel for years.
More recently, it was a boardinghouse full of lower income
people.
And that phrase peeved me deeplyand intrigued me because.
In my little world ofhistorians, we don't think that
about anybody now.
We realize that every human hasstories to tell and is
(13:18):
significant.
But I started thinking about thelarger public that I want to
engage with, and I still thinkthat's kind of a common idea,
that if you didn't leave behinda bunch of stories, or maybe you
didn't have any money, or youdidn't leave behind this
interesting story that's easilyfound, you could be cast off as
insignificant.
Like, how am I going to tellyour life?
So it was my mission to usethese women's lives that I found
(13:40):
to...
prove that guy wrong.
Basically.
It's a passion project, youknow?
So it's a creative way to tellwomen's history in the country,
but it's through these localstories.
Each chapter starts with anobject I found, which is
hopefully interesting, and thenexplores their life.
And I try to make it asinteresting as possible.
(14:01):
And spending significant timesaway from academia, I've gotten
better at being a little weirdin my writing.
There's a lot of questions init, like, what does she feel
here?
What does she do here?
And I think you just got to askthose questions because then
that gets you like in your likeseven year old mindset, right?
Where you're just like playingpretend and you're being
creative.
And that's, I think a huge goalin my life is to continue to do
(14:22):
that and get other people to dothat.
Yeah.
And honor these women's lives.
SPEAKER_00 (14:26):
That's awesome.
Anything else?
I don't know if you have anyquestions to jump in, Patrick.
Before you do, we mentioned thename John a few times.
Just to give the listeners somecontext.
I was just thinking about thatright now in my head.
I was like, I should probablysay something about.
So, John, you're referring toJohn Blatchford.
Yes, I am.
Who we've had as a guest on thepodcast.
And you guys can go back andlisten to one of those episodes.
(14:47):
He is part of Cohorts.
SPEAKER_02 (14:49):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (14:49):
And you guys are just like a building team of the
super friends, which we're goingto talk about in a
SPEAKER_02 (14:56):
minute.
Yes.
Yeah, so he runs cohorts andthen renovates historic, we
joke, like long abandonedbuildings.
The first one he renovated hadbeen vacant since 1977.
We met in an old building andfell in love in an old building
and live in an old building now.
There's like a theme here.
Our poor kid is probably like,oh my God.
SPEAKER_00 (15:17):
This kid grew up loving buildings.
I
SPEAKER_02 (15:20):
hope so.
We always joke he's going tolike the opposite.
Like everything new, you know,that's how kids are, right?
SPEAKER_01 (15:26):
But yes, that's That's who I'm referring to.
OK, cool.
So wait, so in this book, eachchapter is like a different
story, like a different woman.
Just from Cincinnati or fromthat one building?
From
SPEAKER_02 (15:37):
Cincinnati.
Yep.
So an example was I found an oldplate from a Irish famine
survivor.
She brought it over with her,remarkably, how the heck this
thing survived.
And she lived in various partsof downtown Cincinnati and
further out.
And so I kind of traced thisplate throughout.
And that tells you a lot aboutearly Cincinnati history that
(15:59):
early 1800s stuff mid 1800s ittells you about women in that
time period it tells you aboutimmigrants and I'm always down
to talk about these themes alater chapter looks at a working
class seamstress little stuffshe left and you might think
like what does that lady have toshare right but she if you dig a
little and you get creativethese people had all the
(16:20):
emotions we have they livedtheir full lives you know just
because she didn't marry or havemoney right she was you know a
badass in her own right and soI'm trying to honor these people
and one thing we did too is wetried to find each of their
graves and that was reallymeaningful to go find them I
found all of them but I thinkone
SPEAKER_00 (16:38):
wow that's very impressive very cool well that
kind of transitions basicallyvery well talking about like the
stories of these people andeverything that you've gone
through for digging through allthis information and putting it
all together the case forpreservation right so why does
it matter obviously I mean Ifeel like there's a lot of like
you've talked a lot aboutstories and everything but is
(16:59):
that your basic case for whyhistoric preservation matters is
like to carry on that legacy ofthese people
SPEAKER_02 (17:04):
yeah I think that's a great question I feel like
depending on which hat I have onthere are a lot of answers and
that is a I think that bodeswell for historic preservation
so when I have my historian haton or my I feel like visiting
Europe hat on it's like yesbecause place gets embedded with
meaning over time and there'ssomething about the human soul
(17:24):
that craves that whether or notevery one of us can articulate
that that is what we like to goto Paris and places like that,
right?
And so I think it's honoringsomething deeply cultural and
artistic and deeply human aboutus.
But there are so many otherreasons.
I think it is an excellentcommunity development tool.
(17:46):
It's an excellent economicdevelopment tool.
It is much better for theenvironment than building
something new.
It is a very flexible artprogram these days.
I teach my students about thehistory of historic preservation
and where it's at now is it's areally exciting moment there are
very creative ways that we canemploy it it's not this must be
(18:09):
a house museum you know likethank goodness we have evolved
from that that adaptive reuse isreally at an all-time high I
think it's yeah financiallyenvironmentally culturally in
many ways really good
SPEAKER_00 (18:21):
for some people that might not might not have an
understanding like it might beobvious for some but yeah the
environmental impact yeah canyou touch on that a little bit
like what you specifically meanby having an environmental
impact with preservation
SPEAKER_02 (18:32):
yes years ago I asked my friend Brad Cooper who
would be a great person to everinterview he's a local architect
to come in he's a lead architectin particular to come into my
students my class and lecture tomy students the history of like
lead and how architecture hasbeen influenced by environmental
(18:53):
perspectives over time and hehad this thing he said that
always stuck with me it isalways is better for the
environment to fix something upthan to build new.
And so I've always thought thatcaptures that well.
But in my own experience andfrom my understanding, it is
(19:13):
often financially, butdefinitely like more
sustainable, it's better interms of conservation, to take
something that's existing interms of the waste that you
produce and new constructionversus old, that's going to be
less.
In terms of your carbonfootprint, that is going to be
less.
There's also just something likeit's already physically there.
So you're not bringing in a lotof new equipment, new materials.
(19:37):
I also love how, depends on whattime period you're talking
about.
I think this building is a greatexample.
Most of Over the Rhine'sarchitecture is a great example.
These buildings were built byfolks that were really smart and
they are almost like sustainablelittle capsules in and of
themselves, right?
In ways that a lot of newerbuildings like have to work a
little bit harder with thingslike heating and air and
(19:59):
ventilation.
I think that's beautiful.
You know, the high ceilings inold buildings, the use of
transoms and large double hungwindows, casements to make them
really, really airtight,plaster, brick, all these things
that breathe well, right?
Those are very, very sustainablematerials that I think speak to
an earlier conservation ethic.
that we strayed from in the1950s and so new buildings are
(20:25):
great too but I think like ifthere is absolutely an
environmental argument torenovate what's there amongst
many other arguments yeah
SPEAKER_00 (20:34):
you teased it earlier when we were talking
about different buildings aboutCincinnati but could you you
said that you knew a little bitabout the history of this the
place that we're literallysitting in right now
SPEAKER_02 (20:43):
I love this building
SPEAKER_00 (20:43):
would you care to share a little bit
SPEAKER_02 (20:45):
yes okay so I am obsessed with immigration
history because I think that'sjust such a beauty.
Like, what a crazy story.
You get on a boat or a plane nowor whatever, and you come to a
new country, wherever that is.
Like, what gumption.
And it breeds fascinatingstories.
So one of the things that peoplethat had been here a little bit
longer did around the turn ofthe 20th century was they built
(21:07):
these things called settlementhouses to try to help immigrants
assimilate.
So around 1900 was this highpoint for people coming into the
U.S.
from Europe and Asia andparticularly parts of Europe
Europe that English would not betheir first language, Italy and
Russia and places like that.
And so this was a really commontactic in Chicago and New York,
(21:28):
but also here that we're goingto build these houses and
they're going to offer likeEnglish language classes.
They're going to offer likebilliards for men.
They're going to offerkindergarten for kids and
daycare for kids.
So it's like a one stop shop forlike learn English, get a job,
have a like fun, healthy placeto hang out at night, bring your
kids.
And this was one of them.
(21:48):
And the other thing that theywere, a lot of them were, this
is a movement largely run bywomen.
They really cared particularlyabout helping young women.
They were very concerned thatyoung women that were single
would come here and be easilyled astray, that the cities
were, you know, kind ofterrifying for them, right?
(22:11):
And so they particularly wantedto offer classes and like fun
activities for young singlewomen and occasionally boarding
for them.
And as I understand it, thatyoung women also lived here that
were working in a place likeover the Rhine or downtown.
And they wanted to make surethat they were living in kind of
like a, a safe, um, wholesomeplace surrounded by other young
women and run by kind of likematrons, you know, that could
(22:32):
kind of take care of them.
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
Gotcha.
Cool.
Does this building have like aname?
Like you said, you love thisbuilding.
Is that, is there a nickname forit or is it just the address
that.
SPEAKER_02 (22:40):
So I've always heard it referred to as the Emanuel
community center, even backthen.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (22:45):
Um, which I think is still what people refer to it
today in my Would you all call
SPEAKER_01 (22:50):
it?
I just call it the office.
SPEAKER_00 (22:54):
I feel like an idiot.
Stole the words right out of mymouth.
Say the name again one more
SPEAKER_02 (22:59):
time.
Emanuel Community Center orEmanuel Settlement House.
SPEAKER_00 (23:03):
Emanuel Community Center.
I wonder if that's written orprinted or etched somewhere on
the building.
Yeah, that would be
SPEAKER_02 (23:09):
cool
SPEAKER_00 (23:10):
to see.
Yeah, I would love to check thatout.
Emanuel, I forgot it
SPEAKER_02 (23:13):
again.
Yeah, Emanuel Community Centeror Settlement House.
I think there's a matchingoutside that says something.
the effect of like four youngwomen.
You can see that.
And then I think I'm gettingthis correct.
As the building aged and we wentlike further into like the 1950s
and 60s and Over the Rhinebecame more like Appalachian and
African-American, it continuedto act as like a community
(23:34):
center and offered services forthose families.
It just has a really beautifulhistory.
And I think it's just like in aseamless row of buildings.
It's the park.
I mean, it's a great office.
SPEAKER_00 (23:47):
It is a beautiful place to have an office.
and now we know that we're apart of a historically
significant...
I didn't appreciate it untilnow.
We're going to put that on thepodcast art for every episode.
It's recorded in a very historiclocation.
Is it fair to say that youthink...
You might be biased.
I feel like we're all maybe alittle bit biased about
Cincinnati, but it's got to beup there in terms of United
(24:09):
States cities that have a lot ofdeep culture and a lot of really
awesome historical buildings.
Where is it on the list for
SPEAKER_02 (24:17):
you?
John and I talked about this Allthe time.
We've lived in New York for aspell.
He's from New York.
So he always brings thisoutsider's perspective.
And I feel like maybe if youlive on the coast, you haven't
heard of it or some or you'veheard of it maybe, but you
haven't been here.
But we
SPEAKER_00 (24:30):
went to the Super Bowl once or twice, technically.
But I think
SPEAKER_02 (24:36):
like, wow.
Yeah.
I mean, A, it was an incrediblyhuge city back in the day.
Right.
Like very, very significant.
SPEAKER_01 (24:43):
Like in the 1800s.
In
SPEAKER_02 (24:45):
the 1800s, preceded Chicago and prominence was like
the city Thank you.
West of the Appalachians.
And I think that that importancelingers, you know, like you
could feel that you're right inthe old buildings, the culture
here, the freaking CSO is one ofthe oldest in the nation.
It's still so great, you know,and I feel like it's a city that
has had its struggles like somany American cities.
(25:07):
It's not unique in that, butyou're right.
Like it's old importancelingers, I think.
And it it also like has newimportance, like with Blink and
artworks, all the muralseverywhere.
I mean, the expanding bikelanes, all of the parks.
There are many aspects ofCincinnati that I think are
really important and prominentin the old school sense of that
(25:29):
word.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
Okay.
Yeah.
So what are some of the bighistoric buildings that
Cincinnati would most be wellknown for that have done a
really good job with the wholepreservation?
SPEAKER_02 (25:41):
I feel like the two that you mentioned, Music Hall
is a great example and theCincinnati Museum Center, I feel
like are probably...
two of the most famous and thoseare so interesting because
they're from very different timeperiods.
They look so different too.
They're in two differentneighborhoods.
SPEAKER_00 (25:58):
Let's talk about Music Hall first.
Then we're going to talk aboutthe second one after that.
Give us a little bit.
What's your coolest fun factabout Music Hall?
Not to make you go off the topof your head there.
SPEAKER_02 (26:13):
I love Music Hall.
I feel a little bit like I'm ina European city when I stand in
front of it.
It has that like old worldfeeling my understanding it's
built in the 1870s it's kind ofthat you know grand exhibition
hall and what's i think is socool about it is it's largely
retained that purpose like whichechoes your earlier point about
cincinnati's importance likeright we still need this magical
(26:36):
palace to house all these art umarts and cultural institutions
and events i have always foundit interesting as someone that
john always jokes that i likelike depressing history but, you
know, historians like peoplethat are not here anymore.
We're not too bothered by deadpeople.
(26:56):
So this area, when theriverfront was kind of the
early, you know, olddevelopment, and then we slowly
moved north, it was giant oldforest up here that was slowly
being cleared, and then reallyearly settlers came up this way.
Parts of what's underneath MusicHall and then Washington Park
(27:17):
was an old graveyard.
and particularly poorer folksthat couldn't afford maybe more
institutional burials so whenthey were doing the renovations
on music hall and in washingtonpark over the last you know
roughly 10 to 15 years they werestill exhuming bodies from that
and removing them and honoringthem so i think that's like it
(27:38):
just speaks to the layers in aplace and the different uses of
it and for those that areinterested in that music hall is
allegedly haunted by those thosefolks for those people that
believe in that wow but i thinkthat more objectively, that the
burial history there is reallybeautiful.
I'm always just so interested ingoing back in time, thinking
(28:00):
beyond that.
Then it was a dense forest usedby indigenous people.
That's a story we don't see inOver the Rhine told anywhere.
And that environmental history.
What were the old growth treesthat were here before they were
cleared?
I'm always interested in that.
Go back a little bit further andinvestigate those layers.
SPEAKER_00 (28:17):
Music Hall is one of the places where it's like when
i have friends or familyvisiting from out of town that's
one of the places that's alwayslike a checkbox like you got to
go walk through washington parkyou got to just stand in front
of it admire the beauty ifyou're here during one of those
times like blink i do think theydo a great job of highlighting
the building it's really it's areally really cool thing that
they do there anything elseanything on music hall anything
(28:38):
before we switch gears for justa
SPEAKER_01 (28:40):
smidge i saw the nutcracker there this past
christmas what'd you thinkwhat'd you think of the
nutcracker dude i like i so iknow the music from it i've
always wanted to see like a likea ballet like Like either that
or Swan Lake, basically.
And the music's great.
I was falling asleep the wholetime.
It was just like, hey, the chairwas comfy and the music was
(29:04):
relaxing.
And it was so boring.
But I'm
SPEAKER_00 (29:09):
glad that I experienced it.
Yeah, you got to sit in ahistoric building and witness
something that someone elseprobably witnessed.
Yeah.
You know, in that same place,like channel that energy.
SPEAKER_01 (29:19):
It was really cool.
Just to me, I wasn't superengaged by it, even though I
appreciated literally everythingabout it.
It's just like, I would goagain, like if they were going
to show another, you know,ballet or whatever there.
I would see another, because itgenuinely was relaxing.
But I can't, I'm not even goingto like pretend.
I was just on the edge of myseat.
SPEAKER_00 (29:40):
The gumdrops and all the beautiful Christmassy
stories, that doesn't fill youwith energetic excitement.
SPEAKER_01 (29:48):
It's a good vibe.
I really appreciate what thepeople are doing.
I love the music.
That really scratched the itch.
I was like, what is the songfrom the Nutcracker?
There's a bunch.
There's a couple others.
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
(30:10):
Yeah, that was a bunch.
Yeah.
Anyways, that was cool.
It was cool to see it there too.
Like this, you know, 150 yearold building.
SPEAKER_00 (30:16):
Yeah.
We do segments on the show.
Sometimes we talk about thehistory of buildings and I think
we got to make music call apriority.
Yeah.
Make that one, make that one anin-depth conversation.
That'd be very cool.
But I want to ask you aboutanother building.
Yes.
And this is very important rightnow.
Very important.
So we're recording this episodeon July 10th, 2020.
Patrick, I know that you knowwhy this day is significant.
(30:39):
Alyssa, do you know why this dayis significant?
SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
July 10th, no.
SPEAKER_00 (30:43):
July 10th, 2025.
The reason today is significantis because today there is a new
Superman movie in theaters.
I'm a huge...
I heard the producers laugh fromtwo walls.
I'm a huge comic book nerd.
I'm a huge Superman fan.
Love all the movies.
And I don't know if you knewthis.
I think you know this becausewe've talked about it before on
(31:04):
the show.
The Cincinnati Museum Center,the Union Terminal, was used as
the illustrative example for theHall of Justice in the Super
Friends cartoon in the 70s.
So if you go back and look atthe 1970s Super Friends comic,
whenever it's like, Meanwhile atthe Hall of Justice, they'll pan
over, and it's literally, it'sthe exact same design.
(31:25):
The rotunda, you can see the...
cascading water that comes downand like all the terminal pass
and it's a very art deco styleseries much like like Batman the
animated series and the Supermananimated series from back in the
day so I grew up loving the CMCand loving the museum because it
was like every time I went I waslike I was going to the Hall of
Justice today is a very big dayfor me because I'm seeing
(31:48):
Superman tonight and I'm takingthe day off work tomorrow and
I'm gonna see it again thisweekend probably maybe one or
two more times and yeah so withthe Cincinnati Museum Center
Union Terminal tons of historythere in my opinion it's the
best building on earth I thinkit's my favorite building it
fills me with such nostalgiathere but I would love to hear
your they
SPEAKER_01 (32:08):
supposedly filmed this new Superman
SPEAKER_00 (32:09):
movie oh yeah thank you that's a great point so they
filmed for they filmed for threedays I actually went to the set
of the production they walled itoff at the very end before you
get to the parking lot but youcould drive by and see the
camera rigs and everything soit's gonna be in the movie in
the live action yep exactly andshout out to Cincinnati County
the animal shelter, they ran afundraiser this weekend for the
(32:33):
4th of July where if you donatedor adopted a dog or a pet, you
were entered into a contest towin tickets to see Superman at
the Union Terminal in theOmniMax.
I did not win, but I donated, soshout out to Cincinnati Care.
I hope whoever went to that hada great time.
SPEAKER_02 (32:50):
That's amazing,
SPEAKER_00 (32:51):
all that.
When I see the Union Terminaltonight at the theater, I'm
going to stand up and clap.
SPEAKER_01 (32:58):
Wait, just...
I know this is like the finalday before you see it.
How many times have you seen thetrailer so far?
SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
Oh, my God.
Immeasurable amounts of times.
I'll put it on when I just feela little bit sad and I need to
get cheered up or whatever.
So I'll put that on.
I'm excited about the movie.
I like the Superman shirt, bythe way.
Thank you.
Yeah, rocking the Supermanshirt, the red chucks.
Yeah, it's a whole vibe.
But yeah, tell us about theUnion Terminal.
That's what I think.
There's just so much interestingto say about that building.
SPEAKER_02 (33:24):
Agreed, yeah.
My mind first went to, I lovehow many films are...
filmed in Cincinnati there'slike so I do a lot of tax
historic tax credit consultingand the same folks that run that
in Columbus do the movie taxcredits and Cincinnati is often
the spot for places to film andI I love that about Cincinnati
(33:46):
that is just so cool
SPEAKER_00 (33:47):
yeah shout out to film Cincinnati I know a lot of
people in films and a lot ofpeople that are involved in like
production around the area andit's very very very very cool to
see Cincy getting attention
SPEAKER_02 (33:57):
agree yeah and that's like a world I'm always
interested in learning moreabout.
I love Cincinnati Museum Center.
I feel like I have thosenostalgic memories as a kid too
where you go there and you canstand at one end and your friend
can stand at the other end.
It's a giant dome for those ofyou that haven't been in there.
I wrote about Cincinnati MuseumCenter in the Insignificant book
(34:20):
I was telling you guys whereit's looking at the women.
I think it's a beautiful exampleof places that change over So I
didn't know this, but what wasthere before was this really old
park called Lincoln Park.
It was one of the first in thecity and it serviced the West
End neighborhood, which was thenin that era in the mid 1800s,
(34:41):
like growing, very immigrant,increasingly Russian and Jewish.
And they needed a park becauseeveryone needs a park.
Right.
And then in the 1920s, theydemolished that and they widened
what was called Laurel Avenue,which is now Ezra Charles, to
make this big promenade to leadto Lincoln Park.
to a huge new railroad center.
(35:01):
But in doing that, producingthis beautiful historic building
that I love, that you love, wedemolished a lot.
And so it's so interesting thatthe 1920s and 30s is the
beginning of that urban renewaltime period where we demolish a
lot of urban core infrastructurebecause we think new is better.
(35:21):
And so Union Terminal is a greatexample of we demolished it and
for sure displaced people, whichwe need to account for, but also
you produce something that hasan intention and a good a giant
train station that was used thatway for years right and now is a
state of the art museum multiplemuseums Omnimax one of the best
archives in the city so it's
SPEAKER_00 (35:42):
and still trains technically
SPEAKER_02 (35:43):
yeah
SPEAKER_00 (35:44):
take the Amtrak absolutely
SPEAKER_02 (35:46):
John did that once
SPEAKER_00 (35:46):
it took him forever the Amtrak oh you can take a
train from the Union Terminalstill I did not know that
straight up yeah it's still acool experience if you ever get
the chance to take a train fromthe Union Terminal I had no idea
SPEAKER_01 (35:57):
that that still was a thing
SPEAKER_00 (35:58):
Okay, that's cool.
Cool, yeah.
It's a beautiful building.
It's awesome.
That's in which one of yourbooks you said?
SPEAKER_02 (36:04):
The insignificant one, yeah.
I just think it gets you tothink about, you know, nothing
is just black and white, right?
Everything is nuanced.
And so even when you're talkingabout something like historic
preservation and you're arguing,well, this should be preserved,
but this shouldn't, you know,you realize the subjectivity is
involved in it, right?
So if you're building this grandnew train station that we all
love, and for very validreasons, you know, you can still
(36:27):
acknowledge...
the stuff that preceded it,right?
The beginning of the demolitionof the West End, which is a huge
part of Cincinnati history thata lot of folks, particularly of
color in this neighborhood inthe West End, feel very
viscerally.
And I think it's a good exampleof like the messiness of it.
And I think a lot about thatstuff just because I'm employed
on and fixing up a lot ofbuildings in Over the Rhine,
(36:50):
which is a neighborhoodundergoing a lot of change right
now.
And it's race-based change, it'sclass change.
And so I think about like weightof that a lot I guess and the
messiness of it it's not it'snot wholly good it's not wholly
bad it's that uncomfortable grayarea that you kind of like work
SPEAKER_00 (37:06):
through yeah so what are some common challenges that
preservationists face likeobviously there must be a lot of
there's some barriers to entrybut then there's also it's got
to be things that you deal withon a daily weekly basis about
all this kind of stuff so I mean
SPEAKER_02 (37:19):
yes I think it kind of runs the gamut I mean it can
be something as simple as likefinding good craftspeople that
can restore or restore replicatea particular section of a
building or a feature that youwant.
Finding a good company that canrestore old wood double hung
windows has been a challenge forJohn and I, for all my historic
(37:41):
tax credit clients, things likethat.
Just because some of that crafthas been lost over time.
There's still plenty ofcompanies that do it.
You just have to dig a littleand find them.
Yeah, I think financingchallenges is a really big part
of I'm sure John can talk atlength much more about that.
(38:02):
I know a bit about that world.
You know, preservation isinteresting because it is, on
the one hand, there are so manythings about it that make it
more sustainable and in someways more affordable than I'm
going to demolish this and buildsomething new.
Because that involves so muchmore versus an existing shell.
(38:23):
Right.
And so there are things aboutit, if you take aspects of the
building and you're reusingthem, that will ultimately save
you money, which I think is ahuge misconception about
preservation, that it's alwaysgoing to cost you gobs of money.
That said, to contradict myself,this is the messiness of it.
It's a lot to invest in abuilding that sat there vacant
for five decades, particularlyin a climate where you don't
(38:46):
know the interest rate.
You don't know about inflation.
You don't know where thesupplies are going to come in.
If you're talking about tariffsright now, regardless of how you
feel about them, there's justthe messy reality of like, oh, I
don't know if I can get thatwood or those refrigerator And
so that all those things slowlystart to snowball and dissuade a
lot of people from wanting toget involved in an old building
(39:08):
and renovate it.
Yeah.
So the part that I kind of comein is filling those financing
gaps and easing that burden alittle bit.
There's the federal and thenOhio State Historic Preservation
Tax Credit Program, which is areally wonderful program that
takes a lot, some of the riskout of it for the men and women
doing those projects.
(39:28):
Most of my clients are just kindof smaller bootstrap teams.
There are definitely largecompanies that renovate old
buildings, of course, andutilize these things, but they
make it possible for smallerteams teams that maybe don't
come from a lot of financialresources to embark on that with
less risk, I would say.
SPEAKER_00 (39:49):
Okay.
I would imagine that educationalso plays a huge role.
And I'm sure that, I mean...
you know, I'm sure you feel thatin what you've put out in terms
of your, your books, yourresearch, these events that
you've done, but like educatingthe people, you know, maybe
catching someone's spark ofcreativity and then they go on
to, to be involved in the, inthe process as well.
SPEAKER_02 (40:11):
Yeah.
I think it's like a beautifulcommunity of like-minded people,
which you are all, you both likehistory, right?
You care about old spaces, likethat in and of itself, it's all
you need.
Like, it's just, it's like a bugyou catch, I guess.
But yes, I...
I think once you just kind ofexplain it a little bit, people
(40:31):
start to care from my studentswho are largely 17 and 18 years
old, you know?
And like, so we're just thisidea of like, do you have a
connection to an old place?
That's a harder question to aska 17 year old, you know?
But I think when you explainwhat preservation actually is
and in all of its messiness andthen explain, get them to think
about some place, it can be asold or as not old as they want.
(40:55):
And just like, what does thismean to you?
then that lights the fire.
And I think the challenge thenis to do that with like a public
audience at a museum or at apublic gathering, a bar or
whatever.
SPEAKER_00 (41:06):
Walking tours.
SPEAKER_02 (41:06):
A walking tour, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:08):
Do you still host any, do you still do those on a
regular basis?
SPEAKER_02 (41:11):
So I wrote them, but I don't tend to give
SPEAKER_00 (41:14):
them.
Oh,
SPEAKER_02 (41:15):
okay, gotcha.
So I wrote them for, I worked onthem for Friendly Market, but I
especially wrote the Over theRhine Museum walking tours.
If you're familiar with the Overthe Rhine Museum, it's a
UNKNOWN (41:27):
you
SPEAKER_02 (41:28):
If you've been to the New York Tenement Museum,
it's in New York in the LowerEast Side.
And maybe the 90s or so, thesewomen got this idea that they
wanted to design a new kind ofmuseum where if you go into it,
each of the rooms in this oldtenement building were like you
were going back in time into adifferent era.
SPEAKER_01 (41:48):
So it's
SPEAKER_02 (41:49):
like Little Italy in like 1903 or 1960 New York or
whatever, et cetera.
And so that gets you to thinkabout different immigrant groups
that came through.
Yeah.
Vietnamese, Italians, etc.
So Ann Steinert, who I mentionedearlier, and some partners in
Cincinnati thought that was acool idea to do for Over the
Rhine.
So this is a great example tokind of answer your question of
(42:11):
just people that like care abouteducation and got that bug of
storytelling.
So they bought a building nearFindlay Market and they're doing
this.
They researched the heck out ofit.
And it has this reflectivehistory of Over the Rhine.
It was like Germans at one pointand then Czechs, some Eastern
Europeans, maybe some Jewishimmigrants later on.
Appalachians and AfricanAmericans it totally reflects
(42:32):
the history of the neighborhoodand they're designing it so that
you go into like this bedroomand it's like over the Rhine in
1960 and this is what theirkitchen would have looked like
and then over the Rhine in 1952etc and so I designed walking
tours for them is kind of howI'm looping back to that but the
(42:53):
walking tours reflect thatmission and just reflect
something I share with Anne andthose people of How do you bring
alive all the different eras ofa neighborhood and of a place?
How do you pay attention to allkinds of people that live there?
Not just like maybe the groupsthat we tend to pay attention to
the most or men.
Pay attention to all thedifferent stories.
(43:13):
And people like it, right?
Like the New York TenementMuseum is one of the most
popular museums in New YorkCity, which is saying something,
you know?
Yeah, I'm always so fascinatedby it.
Like we like old places.
We like the meaning that'sembedded.
We just don't always like...
have the words to articulate it.
And I have too many words, youknow?
SPEAKER_00 (43:31):
It's awesome.
No, it's a cool concept.
I'm definitely adding that tothe list of Cincinnati things
that I've not done that I needto check out.
So it's a good list.
So looking ahead.
at the future of preservation wegot a couple more questions to
ask you thank you so much forhanging out with us it's been
truly i think really fascinatingdiscussion so how is
preservation changing andmodernizing as we as we move
(43:51):
into the this new era this newage the world's constantly
changing obviously so withincincinnati or just the the way
that preservation is going ingeneral i mean like tech design
storytelling like i mean likewhat's the next decade of
preservation look like in youropinion
SPEAKER_02 (44:08):
yeah lots of things to think about there i think
it's in a really in some ways areally healthy place so ever
since the 60s and 70s we havegotten to this place where we
should save this old buildingbut creatively reuse it as maybe
it was an old warehouse butwe're going to turn into
apartments or it's going to be anew market you know and that was
(44:29):
a major feat for Americans towrap their minds around that.
And so I feel like we've had,we've seen a maturation of that
and we're like, okay, let'scontinue with that energy.
Like this is an old buildingwe're going to save.
Like, Oh, what are the coolthings we could do with it?
Yeah.
We're also at that continuinginto an era where we're, more
and diverse people areinterested in living in urban
(44:51):
core neighborhoods again wherewe're preserving things we are
taking vacant buildings puttingbodies and businesses back into
them preservation is key to allof that we have strong
preservation incentive programsin this country that I'm very
proud of at a federal level.
But the teethiest stuff is atthe state and local level.
(45:13):
And Cincinnati has a really goodstuff here.
Ohio has one of the besthistoric tax credit programs in
the country.
And I never thought I would careabout taxes in my life.
But these are programs that forthose of you that don't know
you, you apply for them.
You can win them.
They're very competitive, butthey essentially for qualifying
expenses, things that most workyou do to an old building, you
(45:37):
get so many cents back on thedollar up to a certain
percentage.
So it's 25% in Ohio.
Sounds technical and kind ofboring, but it's huge because
it's essentially like you couldget 25% of your costs back as a
direct tax cash refund.
So it is huge.
That actually matters for thestate of preservation because
the state program has beenaround since the early aughts.
(46:00):
The federal legislation thatbacks that up has been around
since the 70s and 80s.
That has more than anythinghelped preservation in this
country and so the continuanceof those programs is very key
they are often threatened byfolks that are interested in
cutting back programs which isunfortunate because it's a
program that has tons and tonsand tons of evidence that it
(46:24):
works yeah and it's all aboutproving economic and community
development impact to win thesethings so it's a jobs growth
thing it's an income tax incomething it's It's a tool that
pretty much wherever you are onthe political spectrum, you can
get behind.
So it's frustrating when theyget attacked because it's
usually by folks that don'tunderstand how they work.
(46:45):
But in terms of thinking aheadto the next decade with
preservation, supporting andmaking sure those programs live
on is absolutely key.
I think in terms of like tech, Idon't think too much about that.
You know, as a historian, I tendto be a little bit of a Luddite
with stuff like that.
But John thinks the constructiondevelopment guy thinks a lot
about that and I think there isroom for technological
(47:08):
innovation with constructiontake maybe some of the risk out
of it maybe that said I think Idon't know I also just think
like you know spending a ton oftime in my 20s with like
contractors and subcontractorslike plumbers those are jobs
that I would argue are supposedto be done by humans right and
like I think that's kind ofbeautiful
SPEAKER_00 (47:30):
yeah it's gonna be ever evolving ever changing I
SPEAKER_02 (47:33):
think that would be good I think if it's ever
evolving That means it'shealthy.
(48:04):
are also very, very vitallyimportant.
And I could talk at length aboutthat, but that's super
important.
SPEAKER_00 (48:10):
Awesome.
Patrick, any last questionsbefore we start wrapping it up?
SPEAKER_01 (48:16):
Is there a building...
in Cincinnati or anywhere in theUS that you want to preserve at
all costs?
Like if you had to pick onebuilding?
SPEAKER_02 (48:25):
You know, I saw that question on your script and I
thought about it and I was like,hmm, because it changes all the
time.
What
SPEAKER_00 (48:32):
do you mean?
Patrick totally just came upwith that.
Sorry,
SPEAKER_02 (48:36):
sorry.
I think it's a good question.
If you could tell from my books,my research interests kind of go
ping pong-y all over the place.
So I think my answer to thatquestion changes all the time.
This This is not in Cincinnati,but I think this is cool.
I read a bit about thisrecently.
In the South, there are oldcabins that sharecroppers lived
(48:57):
in.
So folks that wereAfrican-Americans recently freed
from slavery built and lived inthese very simple wood cabins,
sometimes lean-tos.
They had, you know, gottenfreedom or like won that and
then were stuck farming plots ofland that were not their own.
They were in these kind ofcyclical...
(49:17):
They were in cycles of poverty.
But all of that's to say, someof these old sharecroppers'
cabins that are from the 1870s,1880s are still there.
And they speak to this historythat is so like literally
disappearing, right?
Most of those people migratednorth to places like Cincinnati
to the West End to make a bettergo of life.
(49:38):
And that impressive feat, theyleft behind these old cabins
where they had tried to eck outa living and in the most
impressive way.
And there's this effort rightnow by the national park system
pairing up with African-Americanpreservationists in the South to
save them, which I think is socool and badass, especially
because these are like verysimple and wood structures and
(49:58):
wood does not tend to last, youknow?
And, and there, it just kind ofspeaks to my interest in like a
place that you think is likeinsignificant is actually deeply
significant.
Like somebody spent their wholelife here and like tried to make
a go of things and their lifespeaks to like slavery and the
civil war and reconstruction.
And like, we should definitelygive a shit about that and I
think that's so cool thatthey're they're trying to save
(50:20):
them I was reading about that sothat's my answer for today
SPEAKER_00 (50:22):
I'll probably change tomorrow yeah that's beautiful
all right Alyssa thank you somuch for joining us this has
been an awesome discussion we'lldefinitely love to have you back
if you ever want to come backand hang out and talk buildings
with us or our nutcracker reviewapparently when we go see that
in the theater at the music hallbut yeah thank you guys for
listening to another episode ofthe Rentish podcast we can be
(50:43):
found everywhere you get yourpodcasts Spotify Apple give us a
review give us a rate Follow us.
Give us a comment.
Tell us how much you love theshow.
Email questions attherentishpod.com.
If you have any questions ortopic suggestions or anything
you want to hear us talk about,stay and subscribe for new
episodes.
And again, shout out to Alyssa.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show.
(51:03):
It was awesome to talk with you.
And yeah, I've been Zach.
That's been Patrick.
And we'll see you next time.
SPEAKER_02 (51:10):
Thank you.
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