May 27, 2025 • 30 mins
This week Aideen interviews Joseph McGuire, internationally renowned facial profiling and body language expert, who shares his expertise on reading people through nonverbal cues and ancient Chinese face reading techniques. He explains how understanding these signals can help us communicate authentically, recognize red flags in relationships, and make better decisions in both personal and professional contexts.
• Joseph has been fascinated by observing people since childhood, intuitively reading their intentions and emotions
• Chinese face reading views the mind and body as an inseparable unit, treating the face as a life map
• Pay attention to people's eyes - they will feel warm, neutral, or cold, giving immediate insight into someone's intentions
• Contrary to popular belief, liars often maintain eye contact to monitor your reactions
• When dating someone new, use a three-date strategy: neutral location first, then your environment, then theirs
• If someone won't introduce you to their friends, consider it a major red flag
• Trust your instincts and physical sensations when something feels wrong
• For authentic communication, use a genuine smile that reaches your eyes
• Being willing to show vulnerability creates stronger connections with audiences
• Sometimes small comments you make can have profound impacts on others
Be sure to connect with Joseph if you need guidance on making important decisions or want to learn more about reading people.
Connect with Joseph
LinkedIn: @joseph-mcguire-face-facts
Website: www.clearsightcommunications.com
YouTube: @ClearsightJ
Twitter: @clearsightj
YouTube Testimonial: Mike Harsanyi Testimonial for Joseph
Thanks for listening! To book a free consultation with Aideen visit https://www.confidenceinsinging.com/contact/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Aideen Ni Riada (00:03):
Welcome to the Resonate podcast with Aideen.
I'm Aideen Ni Riada, and myguest today is Joseph Maguire,
and I'm really excited tointroduce you to all to Joseph.
Joseph is an internationallyrenowned facial profiling and
body language expert who hasbeen consulting on ancient
Chinese face reading since 1985.
(00:23):
From an early age, joseph hasbeen fascinated by people, much
like I have been fascinated bypeople for a long time too and
by how they move, behave andreveal so much without speaking,
as well as by the hidden layersbehind the words they choose.
He has honed his skills innegotiation, interrogation and
(00:45):
elicitation, drawing on insightsfrom former FBI trainers, and
is a valued member of theinternational investment
consulting firm Alpha ConsultTeam.
Welcome, joseph, it's great tohave you here.
Joseph McGuire (00:57):
Oh, absolute pleasure, Aideen.
Thank you so much for theinvitation.
Aideen Ni Riada (01:01):
Yeah, I'm really happy to speak with you
because we've spoken before.
I bought your book as wellabout face reading.
I think I bought about threebooks on Chinese face reading
around that time because I gotreally interested in it.
Um, but tell us a little bitabout how you got interested in
um people, because you say herein your bio that they reveal so
(01:22):
much without speaking.
Can you elaborate on how thisbecame obvious to you and where
your work has come from?
Joseph McGuire (01:31):
Yeah, well, it goes back to my earliest
childhood, because I was readingpeople.
As a small child, I justintuitively knew a lot about
people like the adults around me, visiting my parents' home, et
cetera.
I could read, I couldunderstand and this probably
goes back to even before I hadspeech, but that I could
understand who was being honest,who was hiding something, who
(01:53):
lacked confidence.
I probably didn't have thewords for it at the time, but I
could tell who was being reallyauthentic and who wasn't.
I remember my father used tobring me to soccer matches as a
young child and I could tell whowas going to move where, whose
head was going to drop, who gota surge of confidence when
things went well, I could readthe play before it happened and
(02:16):
I could just see what peoplewere going to do or not going to
do.
To me it was just glaringlyobvious.
I didn't realize that if it wasobvious to me, it wasn't
obvious to other people, and Igrew up with very little
self-confidence.
So I spent a lot of timeobserving people.
I was the strong, silent type,as I was often described, and it
(02:42):
took a long time for me todevelop the confidence, but I
realized in retrospect.
This was like my apprenticeship, and it wasn't until I moved to
London, when I was in my early20s and I started to study.
I studied a branch of orientalmedicine which introduced me to
the ancient Chinese skill ofreading faces, initially as a
(03:04):
diagnostic tool, but the Chineseperspective was always that the
mind and the body are oneinseparable unit.
So, rather than the Westernmedical approach of thinking of
the heart as a muscle in thechest and the liver as this
large organ on the right-handside of the upper abdomen, they
thought in terms of okay, okay,the heart relates to this area
(03:25):
of these areas of emotion.
This aspect of our, of ourbeing, the liver, is associated
with these parts of our mentalprocesses, parts of our thinking
, etc.
Etc.
So, and they also saw it as allone integrated whole.
So what you were, what I wasbeing taught was being in was,
was the understanding that weare looking at a person rather
(03:45):
than, rather than just umexclusive parts.
And the understanding thendeveloped further from that that
, uh, the, the face wasunderstood as representing a
life map it really isfascinating to think that we can
understand ourselves so muchbetter by analyzing our face.
Aideen Ni Riada (04:07):
And I guess with the Chinese medicine it was
for medical diagnoses andthings like that.
And now you've moved intonegotiation and like quite
serious, you know business kindof transactions.
But how does an ordinary personlike myself maybe use face
(04:29):
reading or what would you?
What kind of advice do you givethe average person, um, in
terms of like what we should belooking out for when we are
trying to read people?
Joseph McGuire (04:40):
sure, absolutely , yeah.
Um, really what I'm about iscommunication and relationships,
and life is all about reallyany kind of human interaction,
whether it's business or social,is all about communication and
relationship.
So really what I'm helpingpeople is to recognize how to
communicate best with anotherperson.
That's the first thing, thebest of ourselves to that,
(05:02):
because one thing I have learnedover the years I was a
therapist for many years and onething I have learned over the
years is that even eminentlysuccessful people often lack
fundamental confidence inthemselves.
So people tend very often towear a mask and hide behind the
mask.
So really I'm looking to helppeople be themselves and
(05:24):
communicate to best effect withwhoever they're engaging with do
you find people get um?
Aideen Ni Riada (05:32):
you know, you know they respond to others in a
way that you know they feellike a higher or lower or you
know authority figures cansometimes make us feel a little
um of ourselves.
What kind of dynamics do youfind affect people the most in
that kind of way?
Joseph McGuire (05:50):
Yeah, well, one of the areas I particularly work
with I've worked with youmentioned the business side, but
I've also worked with a lot ofwomen who've had disappointments
and, shall we say, particularlynegative experiences in
relationships.
So that's an area I'veparticularly focused on the one
of red flags, narcissists andpeople with, shall we say,
(06:11):
ulterior motives.
So one thing I learned a longtime ago is that people who do
have ulterior motives, they tendto have a radar for who to
choose as their target, and theywill usually choose somebody
who has that lack of confidencein themselves and is looking for
(06:33):
approval, looking for praise,looking for love, I guess in
simple terms, and so how do youhelp someone in that situation?
Well, I help them recognizetheir own strengths, first of
all, because that's fundamental.
I help them because, so what Iwill do is I'll profile that
(06:55):
individual and I'll show youlook, this is a strength that
you're underutilizing, this is astrength you're not even
recognizing and help them tobring those strengths through.
But then also help them torecognize their own instincts,
because we all have, we talkabout gut instinct, gut feeling,
and we all have it.
But again, we've beenconditioned, trained, to ignore
(07:17):
it or not pay attention to it.
So, again, going back to thatidea that the body is a
transmitter and a receiver allthe time.
So, when people get a sensationof, oh, this isn't right,
something isn't right, not tooverthink it, but just to pay
attention.
And then, if it's a situationwhere they have already met
(07:40):
somebody and they have somequestions, I will profile that
individual for them and I willsay look, this is showing up as
a red flag, this is something tobe very careful about, this is
something to pay attention to.
So and so, unfortunately, veryoften people come to me after
the fact, but at least I wouldbe able to show them what to
look for in the future, as wellas help them again, recognize
(08:03):
their own strengths and bringthem more to the surface yes, I
mean, we can get into verytangled situations sometimes.
Aideen Ni Riada (08:12):
Um, I myself was involved with a personal
development group for about 10years and I know that I kind of
got a little too attached tothat.
Like, as you said, we are allseeking belonging, love and
sometimes, if we maybe have beenalienated in family
relationships or if we've had anargument with you know, our,
(08:37):
you know someone that we'reclose to, then we look beyond to
a stranger for that support andthey, if we don't know them
very well, can lead us down apath that we weren't expecting.
Well, part of me is like whycan't we all just be young and
innocent and be, you know,protected and everything?
Joseph McGuire (09:01):
But there's an element of you have to have some
street smarts right In order tobe able to, um, navigate the
world really well yeah, yeah,absolutely, and I, like I,
always recommend people be open,like be be open, be trust you
know, trust your best self, beyou know, share the best of
yourself, but at the same time,be discerning and if you get a
(09:22):
sensation that somebody or asituation is not right, walk
away.
Aideen Ni Riada (09:27):
Make no apologies, no excuses, just walk
away and you don't even need tonecessarily understand or like,
have a reason, like, logicallyyou might not have an actual
reason, but you should stilltrust your instincts.
Joseph McGuire (09:41):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and at the very
least make sure, if you get afeeling that somebody or
something is not right and youfeel that in your body it's a
sense of discomfort, if you getthat at least sort of close
yourself down and gatherinformation, don't reveal
yourself, ask questions and keepasking questions if you need to
(10:06):
, if you're not satisfied, andif you're still not satisfied,
make an excuse, do whatever youneed to do and just leave.
Aideen Ni Riada (10:14):
We've spoken about this before, because I
always feel like I'm a littletoo innocent and you'd given me
some advice where you said thatif you're unsure of someone, ask
a similar question like ask thesame question again, but with a
different words to really sothat you have time to watch the
person for how they say whatthey're saying.
(10:35):
What kinds of things are youasking, like if we're looking at
someone and we're trying tojudge are they being truthful or
is there something else goingon?
What kinds of things can welook out for?
Joseph McGuire (10:48):
Yeah, one of the common things is eye contact,
and there's two particularthings I would highlight there.
Number one is the feeling weget from the eyes, and there's
three basic possibilities whenwe make eye contact with
somebody.
And there's three basicpossibilities when we make eye
contact with somebody.
There's three basicpossibilities.
One is that the eyes feel warm,and feel is the operative word
here.
So the eyes either feel warm orthey feel neutral or they feel
(11:12):
cold.
And if you make eye contactwith somebody and their eyes
feel cold, you want to closeyourself off and ideally just
leave, unless you absolutelyhave to stay there.
But again, if you want to closeyourself off and ideally just
leave, unless you absolutelyhave to stay there, but again,
if you have to stay, make sureyou're gathering information,
you're not revealing it, andthen you leave as soon as you
can.
So that's the first thing.
The second thing is there's athere's a common misconception
(11:36):
that liars will will avoid eyecontact.
That's a myth.
That's a complete myth.
The likelihood if somebody islying to you or being deceitful,
they will hold eye contactbecause they want to see how
you're responding.
Are you buying what they'resaying?
So the fact that somebody turnstheir head away or turns their
(11:59):
eyes away does not mean they arelying, like, for example, if
you ask yourself a question, ifI ask you a question here what
was the address of the firsthouse you lived in?
Your eyes will go somewherebecause you have to think about
it.
And it's the same.
That's normal, that's normal,that's normal.
(12:21):
So if you have to think aboutsomething, your eyes will go in
some direction or other.
So really, it's about payingattention to what people.
This is going off in probably aslightly different direction,
but paying attention to howpeople behave when there is
absolutely nothing at stake.
And then if they, if theirbehavior changes, that's
(12:44):
probably going a little bitfurther into things.
But if their behavior obviouslychanges or their tone of voice
changes, then it may not be anabsolute red flag, but it raises
questions yeah, um, I've gottenreally interested in this
lately.
Aideen Ni Riada (13:00):
I've been, I read a book by malcolm gladwell
called talking to strangers, andwhat he was, um, trying to draw
attention to was that a lot ofpeople's behavior is is purely
situational.
So one person could be, youknow, great having a cup of
coffee with you, but if they,you know, are confronted by I
(13:20):
don't know someone giving them aticket, say out on the street,
then you'll see what they'rereally like.
But they may not ever show thatunless they're in that
situation, unless you canobserve them in that situation.
And so I thought that wasreally interesting because I was
reading a book recently.
Sheryl Sandberg's wrote a bookcalled Leaning In about
(13:43):
professional women in theworkplace, and she was
suggesting in her book thatyounger women don't pause their
careers in anticipation ofhaving a family, that they keep
momentum going in their careers.
So she gave an example of awoman who wanted to meet the
ideal guy, and so she devised atest.
(14:04):
So, on the second date, ratherthan going on the date, she, uh,
she would cancel last minuteand she would say work was the
reason and she would judgewhether or not his response was
um respectful to her decision towork instead of going on the
date, and so she did marrysomeone and she tested him that
(14:27):
way, and they are still together.
So I thought that wasfascinating.
Do you suggest that we dolittle tests on people like that
?
Yes, because sometimes theseyes, okay, yeah absolutely,
absolutely.
Joseph McGuire (14:39):
yeah, yes, okay, absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, because, again, I've metso many women over the years
who've had negative experiencesin dating or in established
relationships and really we haveto recognize that if we're
going on dates, it is a test.
It is a test and so oftenpeople are looking for love and
(15:02):
they're hungry for love and theywill let that over that, that
that desire, that need, overridetheir instincts.
So so there are several, thereare several things I would
recommend.
I mean, like, if you're, ifyou're dating somebody, even if
the first date is incrediblywonderful, you're just wow, this
is the person, this is myperson.
(15:24):
The first date I would alwaysrecommend being in a neutral
place where it's not familiar toeither of you.
That's the first thing, so youget some sense of how they are
in a new environment.
The second date should be in aplace that's familiar to you or
to them, where you're meetingpeople familiar to you or to
them, where you're meetingpeople familiar to you or them.
And the third the third date,if there is one, should be the
(15:46):
opposite so you're getting tosee their environment and their
friends and they're getting tosee you and your environment and
your friends.
That will tell you a lot aboutthe real person.
And if, for some reason, theycannot arrange for you to meet
their friends, their friends areall away.
(16:08):
Their friends, oh, they alllive elsewhere.
That's a massive, massive redflag.
That's a classic indication ofa narcissist.
Aideen Ni Riada (16:17):
Okay.
Joseph McGuire (16:20):
So there's a lot more's.
Aideen Ni Riada (16:22):
That's a few basic tips well, I hope that
this is useful to someone who'slistening.
I mean, I think it's alwaysuseful to be reminded that, uh,
things are not always what theyseem.
And I started paying attentionto this after seeing a podcast
with Vanessa Van Edwards, who isa body language expert, and,
(16:46):
yeah, I was really fascinated bywhat she was saying.
She talked about microexpressions, which are very
quick expressions that we don'treally register consciously very
often, and I would see myselfas being pretty intuitive, like
I can read people sometimes, butafter learning about that, I
(17:08):
noticed that I was seeing someof these micro expressions and I
was in a conversation and Inoticed the dad talking about
his son going to college and hehad a downturn on his mouth that
he was maybe a little worriedabout his son going to college.
And he had a downturn on hismouth that he was maybe a little
worried about his son going.
And previously I would havethought, oh, yeah, I can feel
that he's feeling something.
But this time I realized I'mobserving something.
(17:30):
So in a way, it's improving my,my communication skills,
because not only am I kind ofseeing oh, I'm feeling something
but I'm also going.
Oh, there's evidence, I canactually see a physical change
in his face.
So I should trust my intuition.
Um, because it's not justintuition.
(17:52):
Would you say that that a lotof the time, our intuition is
something that we're seeingrather than just feeling from
the gut.
Joseph McGuire (18:00):
Both, both.
In my classes, I will often usethe Chinese symbol for
listening, and the Chinesesymbol for listening contains
reference to the ears, the eyes,the heart and the mind, and all
of them working together.
So you're never just seeing,you're never just hearing.
Aideen Ni Riada (18:28):
It's using the whole body again, as the whole
body has an antenna.
Wow, I love that, and I oftensay to people that singing is
the whole body like a tuningfork, because we're transmitting
energy.
But it's not just our voicethat they're hearing, they're
also you.
When we transmit and we speakand are we, um, we are actually
revealing a lot about who we are, like our I would.
(18:49):
I love the idea of listening toan audiobook by the author if
they've got a good voice,because I feel like you get so
much from listening to someoneand their voice transmits more
than just what the wordstransmit.
So I really that's interestingwith the chinese symbol for
listening that it's everythingyour mind, your heart, your ears
(19:12):
.
You said a few other thingsthat I didn't catch.
You know, it's funny how ourbrains catch only a certain
amount, like logically.
We can't process all theinformation that we're given.
That can be a good thing and abad thing, right.
Joseph McGuire (19:27):
Yeah, but you have to recognize that you're
filtering, and it's practice,it's practice, practice,
practice to filter out what'sextraneous and what's irrelevant
, and so much of it is.
Aideen Ni Riada (19:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a skill in the way as
well.
So I'm interested to um, to askyou about this idea of maybe
presenting yourself, because oneof the things that I help
people with is, you know, topresent themselves well, to
maybe brand themselves, to talkabout themselves in a way that
(19:59):
shows their, their, perhapstheir expertise.
What kinds of tips do you havethat would help someone to
change how they're beingperceived by others, so that
they're not just being seen assomeone who's Maybe what can
happen is people see us in acertain way, maybe as friendly,
(20:21):
but may not see us as also beingcredible or an expert.
Joseph McGuire (20:26):
Yeah, context is everything.
Context is very important, butif somebody is asking me that
question, why is it important toyou?
That's the first thing I wantto know about somebody's
motivation.
Do you just want to be seen asthe expert, the influencer, the
star, whatever it might be, ordo you want to share something
(20:47):
with people?
Do you want to connect withpeople in some kind of
meaningful way?
And if you do, then you need toshow up as yourself.
So you need to take the maskoff.
You need to trust yourself totake the mask off, because, by
and large, what's happening nowin the for want of a better term
the public arena is people wantto see real people, they want
(21:09):
to feel a connection rather thanjust hear somebody purporting
to be or being presented as, anexpert.
So are you willing to show upas yourself?
Let your guard down.
Are you willing to like?
The first thing I alwaysrecommend to people is to smile
the genuine, the full Duchennesmile, where your face and your
(21:29):
eyes light up when you smile,because that registers so
powerfully with people If yougreet them with a smile, that
actually triggers a mirrorneuron response in the in your
audience, whether that's anaudience of one or many.
So if you can smile and it's,and it's that genuine, that
radiant smile, that's the firstpart of communication, that's
(21:52):
the first thing.
There are so many, there's somany technical aspects to
presentation and what you dowith your hands, how you stand,
etc.
And what you and, like you're,you've got particular expertise
in the voice.
How does your voice transmit?
Are you, are you speaking fromsomewhere in your, in your chest
, where you're kind ofstrangulated, or are you, are
(22:13):
you showing who you are throughyour voice is?
Are you just talking in amonotone where it's very
technical and it's very dry?
That tells you so much aboutwhere somebody is at.
So there are multiplevariations, but the first thing
is to just learn.
First thing really is to justlearn to relax, which most of us
have to do.
(22:34):
We have to learn to relax andthen know why you're there.
What are you contributing toyour audience?
What do you want to share withthem?
Aideen Ni Riada (22:44):
absolutely, and I think that there are phases
to this as well.
It's being able to be relaxedin a one-to-one situation with
someone, then it's being able tobe relaxed in front of a room
of people that you'refacilitating, maybe being
relaxed in front of camera,being relaxed on a larger stage
and you build your um, yourmuscle basically of you know
(23:11):
being able to communicate bystrategically and kind of
incrementally and puttingyourself into slightly less
comfortable situations.
You know, they say that a lotof growth happens right at the
edge of the comfort zone.
Joseph McGuire (23:25):
Oh yeah, oh yeah , yeah, absolutely yeah.
And that's when, when you, whenyou allow yourself to,
particularly in a public, youknow, in a public presentation,
a public speaking sort ofscenario, when you allow
yourself to go there, to thatplace where it's a little
uncomfortable for you, peoplerespond to it Because everybody
(23:49):
has some element ofvulnerability in them and that
speaks to them.
When you're willing to show upand recognize that guys I'm
metaphorically speaking, nakedhere it's a real person.
Aideen Ni Riada (24:04):
It's a real person.
But I know myself.
I mean I've gone through phaseswhere I've felt a little maybe
lacking in direction or a littlemore self-doubt than usual.
Do you recommend that idea offake it till you make it?
Because on one hand, you'resaying you have to be really
authentic, but sometimes whenyou're putting your best foot
forward, it feels, you know,like you're putting forward
(24:28):
maybe a version of yourself.
You're not putting forward thesame part person that you maybe
are with your spouse, you'reputting forward a different
variety of you yeah, it variesaccording to the audience there
is.
Joseph McGuire (24:41):
There are scenarios where it's not about
yeah, sometimes maybe you needto go in and wear a mask, like
if it's a formal businessmeeting you, you don't want to
be seen to screw up or to besomebody who's you know again,
metaphorically, sort of weepingand letting all their troubles
show.
But if it's a relativelyinformal scenario, trust
(25:11):
yourself.
Trust yourself to be real, but,again, know who your audience
is.
What is it you want to sharewith the audience?
Because, again and I know I'msaying the same thing, I'm
repeating the same thing butpeople want to meet real people.
They want to feel they havesomething in common with you.
Certainly they want to beentertained or they want to
(25:34):
listen, to watch somebody theyadmire, they respect, but they
want to feel they have somethingin common with you.
They want to be touched, theirlives to be touched in some way
by whatever it is you contributeand by your presence.
So trust in that.
Aideen Ni Riada (25:50):
I love that because I feel like sometimes we
certainly with clients andstudents that I've had, and even
with myself sometimes weunderestimate how needed we are,
how needed our perspectivemight be.
Like it's great to have like abig expert that we might see on
YouTube or that we might readtheir book, but actually the
(26:11):
advice that I have learnedthrough my own everyday life, my
own ups and downs, and sayingthat to a friend or supporting
them through something similaras a friend, is hugely important
.
Like we cannot underestimateour value in our relationships
because you're the one that'sthere and if you're there,
(26:34):
you're the most important personto them in that moment.
So, yeah, I think all of ushave gone through so much and we
have had so many differentexperiences and you might think,
well, you're one of many thatmaybe someone else has been
through what you've been through, and in different ways.
But no one gets to be you andno one can replace you.
(26:55):
No one walks in your shoes, andso in the moment when you are
can be yourself, when you can behonest and when you can support
someone with a story or ananecdote or support, I feel like
it's it's.
Some of these situations arelife or death situations.
(27:16):
It's like you know.
They need to hear from us.
Life isn't worth living if wekeep holding back and if we keep
hiding yeah, absolutely,absolutely.
Joseph McGuire (27:25):
and you don't know in advance what something
that to you is a throwawayremark might be so, so impactful
for somebody like I've had that.
So now I've had that situationon numerous occasions where
something I've said that to mewas totally inconsequential.
Somebody afterwards said, wow,I so needed to hear that today.
And I have no idea what it was.
(27:46):
I even said so, you know.
Again, it's really just showingup.
And the other thing is, it'sokay to feel nervous, it's
perfectly okay to feel nervous.
I mean, there are so manystories of famous actors,
actresses, sports stars who arehugely successful and they
literally throw up before theyappear on stage or before they
(28:09):
appear in whatever their sportis, and this goes on almost
every time for some people.
That's pretty extreme to me,but it happens, so it's normal.
And there's an old JerrySeinfeld line about public
speaking where he said that thetwo biggest fears people report
(28:35):
are fear of death and fear ofpublic speaking, and for many
people, fear of public speakingis actually the number one.
So he said that the persongiving the eulogy at a funeral
is often in a worse place thanthe person in the coffin.
Aideen Ni Riada (28:50):
Oh, my Lord, Is there anything that you'd like
to say to our listeners, likeany words of wisdom that you
think maybe people need to bereminded about?
Joseph McGuire (29:02):
um, yeah, again, I go back to the eyes.
When you, when you meetsomebody for the first time,
whether it's in the socialcontext, the business context,
pay attention to the eyes andwhat's the feeling you're
getting from the eyes?
This to me like obviously a fewyears ago, we were all going
around wearing masks, so all youcould see was the eyes and the
eyebrows and the eyes.
This to me like obviously a fewyears ago, we were all going
around wearing masks, so all youcould see was the eyes and the
eyebrows, and the eyes are themost important thing.
(29:24):
If you're paying attention tothe eyes again, are you getting
a feeling of warmth?
Is it neutral or is it cold?
They're the three basicpossibilities.
And if it's neutral, again, justtread carefully, don't reveal
too much of yourself, just youknow.
Gather the information, seewhether this person is okay, and
(29:47):
it may be just that you'remeeting them for some kind of
transactional engagement, that's, you know it's a one-off or a
couple of times and that's itand you've no particular
significance for each other.
But if it's and if it's warm,by all means open up more.
But if it's cold, closeyourself off, gather information
and leave ASAP.
Aideen Ni Riada (30:07):
Yeah, if you get that much, if you get that
much, that's huge.
Thank you so much, joseph.
It's a pleasure to speak to youagain and I always love talking
with you.
I think it's absolutelyfascinating the work that you do
to you again and I always lovetalking with you.
I think it's absolutelyfascinating the work that you do
and I know from seeing some ofyour testimonials that you
really help people at a veryhigh level to make, you know,
(30:27):
very big decisions, and so if,if you or if you know someone
who's making a big decision andthat they may need some
reassurance or some guidance, Iwould highly recommend
connecting in with Joseph andI'll put his contact details
with the show notes.
Thanks again, everyone, forlistening.
We appreciate you being here.
Take care until next time.
(30:48):
Bye-bye.
Welcome to the Resonate podcast with Aideen.
I'm Aideen Ni Riada, and myguest today is Joseph Maguire,
and I'm really excited tointroduce you to all to Joseph.
Joseph is an internationallyrenowned facial profiling and
body language expert who hasbeen consulting on ancient
Chinese face reading since 1985.
(00:23):
From an early age, joseph hasbeen fascinated by people, much
like I have been fascinated bypeople for a long time too and
by how they move, behave andreveal so much without speaking,
as well as by the hidden layersbehind the words they choose.
He has honed his skills innegotiation, interrogation and
(00:45):
elicitation, drawing on insightsfrom former FBI trainers, and
is a valued member of theinternational investment
consulting firm Alpha ConsultTeam.
Welcome, joseph, it's great tohave you here.
Joseph McGuire (00:57):
Oh, absolute pleasure, Aideen.
Thank you so much for theinvitation.
Aideen Ni Riada (01:01):
Yeah, I'm really happy to speak with you
because we've spoken before.
I bought your book as wellabout face reading.
I think I bought about threebooks on Chinese face reading
around that time because I gotreally interested in it.
Um, but tell us a little bitabout how you got interested in
um people, because you say herein your bio that they reveal so
(01:22):
much without speaking.
Can you elaborate on how thisbecame obvious to you and where
your work has come from?
Joseph McGuire (01:31):
Yeah, well, it goes back to my earliest
childhood, because I was readingpeople.
As a small child, I justintuitively knew a lot about
people like the adults around me, visiting my parents' home, et
cetera.
I could read, I couldunderstand and this probably
goes back to even before I hadspeech, but that I could
understand who was being honest,who was hiding something, who
(01:53):
lacked confidence.
I probably didn't have thewords for it at the time, but I
could tell who was being reallyauthentic and who wasn't.
I remember my father used tobring me to soccer matches as a
young child and I could tell whowas going to move where, whose
head was going to drop, who gota surge of confidence when
things went well, I could readthe play before it happened and
(02:16):
I could just see what peoplewere going to do or not going to
do.
To me it was just glaringlyobvious.
I didn't realize that if it wasobvious to me, it wasn't
obvious to other people, and Igrew up with very little
self-confidence.
So I spent a lot of timeobserving people.
I was the strong, silent type,as I was often described, and it
(02:42):
took a long time for me todevelop the confidence, but I
realized in retrospect.
This was like my apprenticeship, and it wasn't until I moved to
London, when I was in my early20s and I started to study.
I studied a branch of orientalmedicine which introduced me to
the ancient Chinese skill ofreading faces, initially as a
(03:04):
diagnostic tool, but the Chineseperspective was always that the
mind and the body are oneinseparable unit.
So, rather than the Westernmedical approach of thinking of
the heart as a muscle in thechest and the liver as this
large organ on the right-handside of the upper abdomen, they
thought in terms of okay, okay,the heart relates to this area
(03:25):
of these areas of emotion.
This aspect of our, of ourbeing, the liver, is associated
with these parts of our mentalprocesses, parts of our thinking
, etc.
Etc.
So, and they also saw it as allone integrated whole.
So what you were, what I wasbeing taught was being in was,
was the understanding that weare looking at a person rather
(03:45):
than, rather than just umexclusive parts.
And the understanding thendeveloped further from that that
, uh, the, the face wasunderstood as representing a
life map it really isfascinating to think that we can
understand ourselves so muchbetter by analyzing our face.
Aideen Ni Riada (04:07):
And I guess with the Chinese medicine it was
for medical diagnoses andthings like that.
And now you've moved intonegotiation and like quite
serious, you know business kindof transactions.
But how does an ordinary personlike myself maybe use face
(04:29):
reading or what would you?
What kind of advice do you givethe average person, um, in
terms of like what we should belooking out for when we are
trying to read people?
Joseph McGuire (04:40):
sure, absolutely , yeah.
Um, really what I'm about iscommunication and relationships,
and life is all about reallyany kind of human interaction,
whether it's business or social,is all about communication and
relationship.
So really what I'm helpingpeople is to recognize how to
communicate best with anotherperson.
That's the first thing, thebest of ourselves to that,
(05:02):
because one thing I have learnedover the years I was a
therapist for many years and onething I have learned over the
years is that even eminentlysuccessful people often lack
fundamental confidence inthemselves.
So people tend very often towear a mask and hide behind the
mask.
So really I'm looking to helppeople be themselves and
(05:24):
communicate to best effect withwhoever they're engaging with do
you find people get um?
Aideen Ni Riada (05:32):
you know, you know they respond to others in a
way that you know they feellike a higher or lower or you
know authority figures cansometimes make us feel a little
um of ourselves.
What kind of dynamics do youfind affect people the most in
that kind of way?
Joseph McGuire (05:50):
Yeah, well, one of the areas I particularly work
with I've worked with youmentioned the business side, but
I've also worked with a lot ofwomen who've had disappointments
and, shall we say, particularlynegative experiences in
relationships.
So that's an area I'veparticularly focused on the one
of red flags, narcissists andpeople with, shall we say,
(06:11):
ulterior motives.
So one thing I learned a longtime ago is that people who do
have ulterior motives, they tendto have a radar for who to
choose as their target, and theywill usually choose somebody
who has that lack of confidencein themselves and is looking for
(06:33):
approval, looking for praise,looking for love, I guess in
simple terms, and so how do youhelp someone in that situation?
Well, I help them recognizetheir own strengths, first of
all, because that's fundamental.
I help them because, so what Iwill do is I'll profile that
(06:55):
individual and I'll show youlook, this is a strength that
you're underutilizing, this is astrength you're not even
recognizing and help them tobring those strengths through.
But then also help them torecognize their own instincts,
because we all have, we talkabout gut instinct, gut feeling,
and we all have it.
But again, we've beenconditioned, trained, to ignore
(07:17):
it or not pay attention to it.
So, again, going back to thatidea that the body is a
transmitter and a receiver allthe time.
So, when people get a sensationof, oh, this isn't right,
something isn't right, not tooverthink it, but just to pay
attention.
And then, if it's a situationwhere they have already met
(07:40):
somebody and they have somequestions, I will profile that
individual for them and I willsay look, this is showing up as
a red flag, this is something tobe very careful about, this is
something to pay attention to.
So and so, unfortunately, veryoften people come to me after
the fact, but at least I wouldbe able to show them what to
look for in the future, as wellas help them again, recognize
(08:03):
their own strengths and bringthem more to the surface yes, I
mean, we can get into verytangled situations sometimes.
Aideen Ni Riada (08:12):
Um, I myself was involved with a personal
development group for about 10years and I know that I kind of
got a little too attached tothat.
Like, as you said, we are allseeking belonging, love and
sometimes, if we maybe have beenalienated in family
relationships or if we've had anargument with you know, our,
(08:37):
you know someone that we'reclose to, then we look beyond to
a stranger for that support andthey, if we don't know them
very well, can lead us down apath that we weren't expecting.
Well, part of me is like whycan't we all just be young and
innocent and be, you know,protected and everything?
Joseph McGuire (09:01):
But there's an element of you have to have some
street smarts right In order tobe able to, um, navigate the
world really well yeah, yeah,absolutely, and I, like I,
always recommend people be open,like be be open, be trust you
know, trust your best self, beyou know, share the best of
yourself, but at the same time,be discerning and if you get a
(09:22):
sensation that somebody or asituation is not right, walk
away.
Aideen Ni Riada (09:27):
Make no apologies, no excuses, just walk
away and you don't even need tonecessarily understand or like,
have a reason, like, logicallyyou might not have an actual
reason, but you should stilltrust your instincts.
Joseph McGuire (09:41):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and at the very
least make sure, if you get afeeling that somebody or
something is not right and youfeel that in your body it's a
sense of discomfort, if you getthat at least sort of close
yourself down and gatherinformation, don't reveal
yourself, ask questions and keepasking questions if you need to
(10:06):
, if you're not satisfied, andif you're still not satisfied,
make an excuse, do whatever youneed to do and just leave.
Aideen Ni Riada (10:14):
We've spoken about this before, because I
always feel like I'm a littletoo innocent and you'd given me
some advice where you said thatif you're unsure of someone, ask
a similar question like ask thesame question again, but with a
different words to really sothat you have time to watch the
person for how they say whatthey're saying.
(10:35):
What kinds of things are youasking, like if we're looking at
someone and we're trying tojudge are they being truthful or
is there something else goingon?
What kinds of things can welook out for?
Joseph McGuire (10:48):
Yeah, one of the common things is eye contact,
and there's two particularthings I would highlight there.
Number one is the feeling weget from the eyes, and there's
three basic possibilities whenwe make eye contact with
somebody.
And there's three basicpossibilities when we make eye
contact with somebody.
There's three basicpossibilities.
One is that the eyes feel warm,and feel is the operative word
here.
So the eyes either feel warm orthey feel neutral or they feel
(11:12):
cold.
And if you make eye contactwith somebody and their eyes
feel cold, you want to closeyourself off and ideally just
leave, unless you absolutelyhave to stay there.
But again, if you want to closeyourself off and ideally just
leave, unless you absolutelyhave to stay there, but again,
if you have to stay, make sureyou're gathering information,
you're not revealing it, andthen you leave as soon as you
can.
So that's the first thing.
The second thing is there's athere's a common misconception
(11:36):
that liars will will avoid eyecontact.
That's a myth.
That's a complete myth.
The likelihood if somebody islying to you or being deceitful,
they will hold eye contactbecause they want to see how
you're responding.
Are you buying what they'resaying?
So the fact that somebody turnstheir head away or turns their
(11:59):
eyes away does not mean they arelying, like, for example, if
you ask yourself a question, ifI ask you a question here what
was the address of the firsthouse you lived in?
Your eyes will go somewherebecause you have to think about
it.
And it's the same.
That's normal, that's normal,that's normal.
(12:21):
So if you have to think aboutsomething, your eyes will go in
some direction or other.
So really, it's about payingattention to what people.
This is going off in probably aslightly different direction,
but paying attention to howpeople behave when there is
absolutely nothing at stake.
And then if they, if theirbehavior changes, that's
(12:44):
probably going a little bitfurther into things.
But if their behavior obviouslychanges or their tone of voice
changes, then it may not be anabsolute red flag, but it raises
questions yeah, um, I've gottenreally interested in this
lately.
Aideen Ni Riada (13:00):
I've been, I read a book by malcolm gladwell
called talking to strangers, andwhat he was, um, trying to draw
attention to was that a lot ofpeople's behavior is is purely
situational.
So one person could be, youknow, great having a cup of
coffee with you, but if they,you know, are confronted by I
(13:20):
don't know someone giving them aticket, say out on the street,
then you'll see what they'rereally like.
But they may not ever show thatunless they're in that
situation, unless you canobserve them in that situation.
And so I thought that wasreally interesting because I was
reading a book recently.
Sheryl Sandberg's wrote a bookcalled Leaning In about
(13:43):
professional women in theworkplace, and she was
suggesting in her book thatyounger women don't pause their
careers in anticipation ofhaving a family, that they keep
momentum going in their careers.
So she gave an example of awoman who wanted to meet the
ideal guy, and so she devised atest.
(14:04):
So, on the second date, ratherthan going on the date, she, uh,
she would cancel last minuteand she would say work was the
reason and she would judgewhether or not his response was
um respectful to her decision towork instead of going on the
date, and so she did marrysomeone and she tested him that
(14:27):
way, and they are still together.
So I thought that wasfascinating.
Do you suggest that we dolittle tests on people like that
?
Yes, because sometimes theseyes, okay, yeah absolutely,
absolutely.
Joseph McGuire (14:39):
yeah, yes, okay, absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, because, again, I've metso many women over the years
who've had negative experiencesin dating or in established
relationships and really we haveto recognize that if we're
going on dates, it is a test.
It is a test and so oftenpeople are looking for love and
(15:02):
they're hungry for love and theywill let that over that, that
that desire, that need, overridetheir instincts.
So so there are several, thereare several things I would
recommend.
I mean, like, if you're, ifyou're dating somebody, even if
the first date is incrediblywonderful, you're just wow, this
is the person, this is myperson.
(15:24):
The first date I would alwaysrecommend being in a neutral
place where it's not familiar toeither of you.
That's the first thing, so youget some sense of how they are
in a new environment.
The second date should be in aplace that's familiar to you or
to them, where you're meetingpeople familiar to you or to
them, where you're meetingpeople familiar to you or them.
And the third the third date,if there is one, should be the
(15:46):
opposite so you're getting tosee their environment and their
friends and they're getting tosee you and your environment and
your friends.
That will tell you a lot aboutthe real person.
And if, for some reason, theycannot arrange for you to meet
their friends, their friends areall away.
(16:08):
Their friends, oh, they alllive elsewhere.
That's a massive, massive redflag.
That's a classic indication ofa narcissist.
Aideen Ni Riada (16:17):
Okay.
Joseph McGuire (16:20):
So there's a lot more's.
Aideen Ni Riada (16:22):
That's a few basic tips well, I hope that
this is useful to someone who'slistening.
I mean, I think it's alwaysuseful to be reminded that, uh,
things are not always what theyseem.
And I started paying attentionto this after seeing a podcast
with Vanessa Van Edwards, who isa body language expert, and,
(16:46):
yeah, I was really fascinated bywhat she was saying.
She talked about microexpressions, which are very
quick expressions that we don'treally register consciously very
often, and I would see myselfas being pretty intuitive, like
I can read people sometimes, butafter learning about that, I
(17:08):
noticed that I was seeing someof these micro expressions and I
was in a conversation and Inoticed the dad talking about
his son going to college and hehad a downturn on his mouth that
he was maybe a little worriedabout his son going to college.
And he had a downturn on hismouth that he was maybe a little
worried about his son going.
And previously I would havethought, oh, yeah, I can feel
that he's feeling something.
But this time I realized I'mobserving something.
(17:30):
So in a way, it's improving my,my communication skills,
because not only am I kind ofseeing oh, I'm feeling something
but I'm also going.
Oh, there's evidence, I canactually see a physical change
in his face.
So I should trust my intuition.
Um, because it's not justintuition.
(17:52):
Would you say that that a lotof the time, our intuition is
something that we're seeingrather than just feeling from
the gut.
Joseph McGuire (18:00):
Both, both.
In my classes, I will often usethe Chinese symbol for
listening, and the Chinesesymbol for listening contains
reference to the ears, the eyes,the heart and the mind, and all
of them working together.
So you're never just seeing,you're never just hearing.
Aideen Ni Riada (18:28):
It's using the whole body again, as the whole
body has an antenna.
Wow, I love that, and I oftensay to people that singing is
the whole body like a tuningfork, because we're transmitting
energy.
But it's not just our voicethat they're hearing, they're
also you.
When we transmit and we speakand are we, um, we are actually
revealing a lot about who we are, like our I would.
(18:49):
I love the idea of listening toan audiobook by the author if
they've got a good voice,because I feel like you get so
much from listening to someoneand their voice transmits more
than just what the wordstransmit.
So I really that's interestingwith the chinese symbol for
listening that it's everythingyour mind, your heart, your ears
(19:12):
.
You said a few other thingsthat I didn't catch.
You know, it's funny how ourbrains catch only a certain
amount, like logically.
We can't process all theinformation that we're given.
That can be a good thing and abad thing, right.
Joseph McGuire (19:27):
Yeah, but you have to recognize that you're
filtering, and it's practice,it's practice, practice,
practice to filter out what'sextraneous and what's irrelevant
, and so much of it is.
Aideen Ni Riada (19:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a skill in the way as
well.
So I'm interested to um, to askyou about this idea of maybe
presenting yourself, because oneof the things that I help
people with is, you know, topresent themselves well, to
maybe brand themselves, to talkabout themselves in a way that
(19:59):
shows their, their, perhapstheir expertise.
What kinds of tips do you havethat would help someone to
change how they're beingperceived by others, so that
they're not just being seen assomeone who's Maybe what can
happen is people see us in acertain way, maybe as friendly,
(20:21):
but may not see us as also beingcredible or an expert.
Joseph McGuire (20:26):
Yeah, context is everything.
Context is very important, butif somebody is asking me that
question, why is it important toyou?
That's the first thing I wantto know about somebody's
motivation.
Do you just want to be seen asthe expert, the influencer, the
star, whatever it might be, ordo you want to share something
(20:47):
with people?
Do you want to connect withpeople in some kind of
meaningful way?
And if you do, then you need toshow up as yourself.
So you need to take the maskoff.
You need to trust yourself totake the mask off, because, by
and large, what's happening nowin the for want of a better term
the public arena is people wantto see real people, they want
(21:09):
to feel a connection rather thanjust hear somebody purporting
to be or being presented as, anexpert.
So are you willing to show upas yourself?
Let your guard down.
Are you willing to like?
The first thing I alwaysrecommend to people is to smile
the genuine, the full Duchennesmile, where your face and your
(21:29):
eyes light up when you smile,because that registers so
powerfully with people If yougreet them with a smile, that
actually triggers a mirrorneuron response in the in your
audience, whether that's anaudience of one or many.
So if you can smile and it's,and it's that genuine, that
radiant smile, that's the firstpart of communication, that's
(21:52):
the first thing.
There are so many, there's somany technical aspects to
presentation and what you dowith your hands, how you stand,
etc.
And what you and, like you're,you've got particular expertise
in the voice.
How does your voice transmit?
Are you, are you speaking fromsomewhere in your, in your chest
, where you're kind ofstrangulated, or are you, are
(22:13):
you showing who you are throughyour voice is?
Are you just talking in amonotone where it's very
technical and it's very dry?
That tells you so much aboutwhere somebody is at.
So there are multiplevariations, but the first thing
is to just learn.
First thing really is to justlearn to relax, which most of us
have to do.
(22:34):
We have to learn to relax andthen know why you're there.
What are you contributing toyour audience?
What do you want to share withthem?
Aideen Ni Riada (22:44):
absolutely, and I think that there are phases
to this as well.
It's being able to be relaxedin a one-to-one situation with
someone, then it's being able tobe relaxed in front of a room
of people that you'refacilitating, maybe being
relaxed in front of camera,being relaxed on a larger stage
and you build your um, yourmuscle basically of you know
(23:11):
being able to communicate bystrategically and kind of
incrementally and puttingyourself into slightly less
comfortable situations.
You know, they say that a lotof growth happens right at the
edge of the comfort zone.
Joseph McGuire (23:25):
Oh yeah, oh yeah , yeah, absolutely yeah.
And that's when, when you, whenyou allow yourself to,
particularly in a public, youknow, in a public presentation,
a public speaking sort ofscenario, when you allow
yourself to go there, to thatplace where it's a little
uncomfortable for you, peoplerespond to it Because everybody
(23:49):
has some element ofvulnerability in them and that
speaks to them.
When you're willing to show upand recognize that guys I'm
metaphorically speaking, nakedhere it's a real person.
Aideen Ni Riada (24:04):
It's a real person.
But I know myself.
I mean I've gone through phaseswhere I've felt a little maybe
lacking in direction or a littlemore self-doubt than usual.
Do you recommend that idea offake it till you make it?
Because on one hand, you'resaying you have to be really
authentic, but sometimes whenyou're putting your best foot
forward, it feels, you know,like you're putting forward
(24:28):
maybe a version of yourself.
You're not putting forward thesame part person that you maybe
are with your spouse, you'reputting forward a different
variety of you yeah, it variesaccording to the audience there
is.
Joseph McGuire (24:41):
There are scenarios where it's not about
yeah, sometimes maybe you needto go in and wear a mask, like
if it's a formal businessmeeting you, you don't want to
be seen to screw up or to besomebody who's you know again,
metaphorically, sort of weepingand letting all their troubles
show.
But if it's a relativelyinformal scenario, trust
(25:11):
yourself.
Trust yourself to be real, but,again, know who your audience
is.
What is it you want to sharewith the audience?
Because, again and I know I'msaying the same thing, I'm
repeating the same thing butpeople want to meet real people.
They want to feel they havesomething in common with you.
Certainly they want to beentertained or they want to
(25:34):
listen, to watch somebody theyadmire, they respect, but they
want to feel they have somethingin common with you.
They want to be touched, theirlives to be touched in some way
by whatever it is you contributeand by your presence.
So trust in that.
Aideen Ni Riada (25:50):
I love that because I feel like sometimes we
certainly with clients andstudents that I've had, and even
with myself sometimes weunderestimate how needed we are,
how needed our perspectivemight be.
Like it's great to have like abig expert that we might see on
YouTube or that we might readtheir book, but actually the
(26:11):
advice that I have learnedthrough my own everyday life, my
own ups and downs, and sayingthat to a friend or supporting
them through something similaras a friend, is hugely important
.
Like we cannot underestimateour value in our relationships
because you're the one that'sthere and if you're there,
(26:34):
you're the most important personto them in that moment.
So, yeah, I think all of ushave gone through so much and we
have had so many differentexperiences and you might think,
well, you're one of many thatmaybe someone else has been
through what you've been through, and in different ways.
But no one gets to be you andno one can replace you.
(26:55):
No one walks in your shoes, andso in the moment when you are
can be yourself, when you can behonest and when you can support
someone with a story or ananecdote or support, I feel like
it's it's.
Some of these situations arelife or death situations.
(27:16):
It's like you know.
They need to hear from us.
Life isn't worth living if wekeep holding back and if we keep
hiding yeah, absolutely,absolutely.
Joseph McGuire (27:25):
and you don't know in advance what something
that to you is a throwawayremark might be so, so impactful
for somebody like I've had that.
So now I've had that situationon numerous occasions where
something I've said that to mewas totally inconsequential.
Somebody afterwards said, wow,I so needed to hear that today.
And I have no idea what it was.
(27:46):
I even said so, you know.
Again, it's really just showingup.
And the other thing is, it'sokay to feel nervous, it's
perfectly okay to feel nervous.
I mean, there are so manystories of famous actors,
actresses, sports stars who arehugely successful and they
literally throw up before theyappear on stage or before they
(28:09):
appear in whatever their sportis, and this goes on almost
every time for some people.
That's pretty extreme to me,but it happens, so it's normal.
And there's an old JerrySeinfeld line about public
speaking where he said that thetwo biggest fears people report
(28:35):
are fear of death and fear ofpublic speaking, and for many
people, fear of public speakingis actually the number one.
So he said that the persongiving the eulogy at a funeral
is often in a worse place thanthe person in the coffin.
Aideen Ni Riada (28:50):
Oh, my Lord, Is there anything that you'd like
to say to our listeners, likeany words of wisdom that you
think maybe people need to bereminded about?
Joseph McGuire (29:02):
um, yeah, again, I go back to the eyes.
When you, when you meetsomebody for the first time,
whether it's in the socialcontext, the business context,
pay attention to the eyes andwhat's the feeling you're
getting from the eyes?
This to me like obviously a fewyears ago, we were all going
around wearing masks, so all youcould see was the eyes and the
eyebrows and the eyes.
This to me like obviously a fewyears ago, we were all going
around wearing masks, so all youcould see was the eyes and the
eyebrows, and the eyes are themost important thing.
(29:24):
If you're paying attention tothe eyes again, are you getting
a feeling of warmth?
Is it neutral or is it cold?
They're the three basicpossibilities.
And if it's neutral, again, justtread carefully, don't reveal
too much of yourself, just youknow.
Gather the information, seewhether this person is okay, and
(29:47):
it may be just that you'remeeting them for some kind of
transactional engagement, that's, you know it's a one-off or a
couple of times and that's itand you've no particular
significance for each other.
But if it's and if it's warm,by all means open up more.
But if it's cold, closeyourself off, gather information
and leave ASAP.
Aideen Ni Riada (30:07):
Yeah, if you get that much, if you get that
much, that's huge.
Thank you so much, joseph.
It's a pleasure to speak to youagain and I always love talking
with you.
I think it's absolutelyfascinating the work that you do
to you again and I always lovetalking with you.
I think it's absolutelyfascinating the work that you do
and I know from seeing some ofyour testimonials that you
really help people at a veryhigh level to make, you know,
(30:27):
very big decisions, and so if,if you or if you know someone
who's making a big decision andthat they may need some
reassurance or some guidance, Iwould highly recommend
connecting in with Joseph andI'll put his contact details
with the show notes.
Thanks again, everyone, forlistening.
We appreciate you being here.
Take care until next time.
(30:48):
Bye-bye.
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