March 10, 2023 • 52 mins
Show Notes
On today's episode, I chat with Andy Bryant about natural podiatry, common foot issues like bunions, and the best way to set your kids up for a lifetime of foot strength. Andy has been a podiatrist for over 20 years. For much of that time he was in a traditional practice but through yoga and self discovery he started strengthening his own feet. Too good not to share, he now has a practice based around helping his clients win back their natural foot function through exercise but even more importantly, habitual changes to lifestyle and footwear!
You're listening to the Resource Doula Podcast, a place where we provide information to help you make informed healthcare decisions for yourself and your family.
Resources he mentioned:
- Correct Toes toe spacers
- Anya’s Reviews website
– Listen to my interview with Anya here– Bunion article by Andy and Anya - Tip Toey Joey kids footwear
- Barefoot Universe
- Barefoot Shoe Review
- Barefoot Shoe Guide
- Gait Happens Instagram
- The Foot Collective
- Hypermobility Doctor
- Healthy Feet Alliance
Connect with Andy:
Please remember that that what you hear on this podcast is not medical advice. but remember to always do your own research and talk to a trusted provider before making important decisions about your healthcare. If you found this podcast helpful, please consider leaving a 5-star review in your favorite podcast app, it helps other people find the show. Thanks so much for listening!
The Resource Doula Podcast Social Channels:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Natalie (00:00):
On today's episode, I chat with Andy Bryant about
natural podiatry, common footissues like bunions, and the
best way to set your kids up fora lifetime of foot strength.
I'm Natalie and you're listeningto the Resource Doula Podcast, a
place where we provideinformation to help you make
informed healthcare decisionsfor yourself and your family.
(00:20):
Andy has been a podiatrist forover 20 years.
For much of that time, he was ina traditional practice, but
through yoga and self-discovery,he started strengthening his own
feet too.
Good not to share.
He now has a practice basedaround helping his clients win
back their natural foot functionthrough exercise, but even more
importantly, habitual changes tolifestyle and foot.
(00:56):
Hey Andy, welcome to the show.
Andy (00:58):
me, Natalie.
Natalie (00:58):
Absolutely.
Okay.
I'm really, really curious.
I wanna start out asking youwhat made you want to be a
podiatrist in the first place,and then how did you transition
to more minimal footwear?
The barefoot life?
Andy (01:12):
it's a, um, that's a long story.
So I'll start, I'll start andstart.
So when I was at school, stillin high school, I think I wanted
to be a physiotherapist, whichis like a physical therapist
there.
Um, but it took a lot of highmarks.
And so I don't think I had thosemarks to tell you the truth.
Um, and then, um, I did a workexperience.
So we go and sit in with aphysical therapist and there's,
(01:32):
there was a podiatrist there aswell, and she's like, oh, come
watch this.
I'm doing a toenail surgery,which is where you dig out an
ingrown toenail.
And I'm like, oh, that'samazing.
So then I was kind of fascinatedby that and went into podiatry.
Um, at university as well.
And it's different here comparedto the states we do, it's more
like an allied health comparedto a, um, being a, a doctor.
So more like a physicaltherapist.
(01:54):
Um, but while I was studying it,I'm like, oh, I don't think I
really wanna do this.
But I noticed that I enjoyedteaching other people.
And so I did my honors, whichwas an, uh, sort of a research
and clinical based honors,honors where I got to teach the
undergraduates.
And, um, I really enjoyed that.
But then I started, um, alsoworking and enjoying working and
(02:15):
earning money, I guess.
And before I knew it, I was ina, um, in a partnership for like
nearly 20 years of verymainstream podiatry.
and that was, uh, we had our ownlittle orthotic lab.
We, we did all the normalpodiatry things.
Um, and then I had, I was aserious cyclist and had a few,
um, concussions from fallingoff, and I wasn't allowed to
(02:37):
ride anymore, so I went to ayoga class.
I don't even know why I justwent there for exercise.
Someone had said, oh, you shouldgo.
And, um, well, um, apart fromall the other benefits of doing
yoga regularly, I noticed thatmy own feet were getting
stronger.
And I had a big runningbackground and been in orthotics
for 20 years myself.
And I like had a lot of ideasaround why I needed them and,
(03:00):
um, what all that meant.
But just noticed that my ownfeet were getting stronger.
I was also starting to go to thegym for the first time in years
and, and people were tradingbarefoot there and I was
questioning all this type ofstuff and I was still just doing
mainstream podiatry.
Um, and then, Just thought,well, why can't I get my clients
to have stronger feet ratherthan supported feet?
(03:21):
And that probably was thetrigger for me leaving that
business partnership becausethat wasn't gonna change there.
And so I went out on my own andthat really just opened the
flood gates for me to be able topractice as I want to.
And um, yeah, so for the lastthree years, I've just been
practicing as I want to, as.
Natural podiatrist or apodiatrist that promotes less is
(03:43):
more like trying to get peoplemoving down to wearing less on
their feet and strengtheningtheir feet, rehabilitating their
feet as you would any other partof the body.
And so it's just been thisnatural progression from like
one extreme to almost the other.
But I think I probably even tostart with, went into this
extreme of like, everyone has tobe barefoot and now I'm coming
(04:03):
back to meeting them wherethey're at, you know?
So I feel like, um, I'm becominga better practitioner and almost
full circle.
Um, that's the point of tellingyou about that education staff
at the start, I've just starteda.
Something called the Better FootProject, where a physio here in
Melbourne as well.
And I, she's really focused onfeat, uh, teaching other allied
health professionals how we lookafter feet because, um, it's
(04:27):
really poorly done.
And, um, so we're starting up acourse, so I'm going back to
being that educator that's justgonna be on weekends, but who
knows where that might lead me.
Yeah.
And
Natalie (04:37):
No, that's amazing.
Andy (04:39):
um, now most of my work is educating people as to how to be
or what to do as opposed to themrelying on me.
So I do feel like I've come thatfull circle and I'm back to
being an educator more thananything else.
Yeah.
Natalie (04:52):
Hmm Hmm.
I think that echoes, I mean,I've had a lot of different
practitioners on this podcast,and most of them are kind of
focused around the perinatalspace where they have clients
who are.
Pregnant or postpartum, andthey're transitioning into more
of the education, like taking,having the client take more
responsibility for their health.
(05:13):
And I think that's a huge trendwith just wellness in general
right now in the world.
Um, do you feel like it's morecommon for natural podiatry and
foot focused people in Australiaversus the us or
Andy (05:28):
No, I don't think so.
Not at all.
Um, but I think it's more commonfor people to want to be looking
after themselves.
And so I, I deal with clientsthat want to, uh, that are
motivated to look afterthemselves.
I don't deal with the ones thatwant a quick fix or that want me
to manipulate their fee or torely on Aho.
And so you definitely have a, amarket or a type of client, but
(05:48):
that, that, um, space is growingas in.
A lot of the public are, aremore aware to wanting to do it
themselves or be not reliantupon a health practitioner.
Here in Australia, there's a, aspodiatrist where there's a huge
reliance upon the orthotic andorthotic, um, income.
and, and so, um, it's definitelynot the case that there's more
(06:11):
natural podiatry here than, likeI could name on one hand how
many natural podiatrists thereare in Australia, or maybe two
hands lucky.
Um, but in the States it'sprobably quite similar.
And maybe it's a chiropractor ora physical therapist that's
doing the work that I do.
Um, and, and there's like twopodiatrists that I can think of
that might practice like I do,which is a bit sad because in
um, the states, it's a bigsurgical.
(06:33):
Um, surgery and orthotics arethe big part of podiatry and,
but you know, the guy that I'mthinking of is Ray McClanahan.
He, he, he's, um, devised thesethings called correcto, which
are to spaces, and he, um, He'sbeen trying to do this for like
25 years and trying to encourageother people to do it and, and
he's just been, you know, justso patient and now that people
(06:55):
are on board with this, I canjust imagine how excited he's,
but he could also, he, he's alsovery understanding that it's a
very long, slow burn.
Cause he's been trying to dothis stuff for 20 to 25 years
and he, he's got a greatpractice set up around it so it
can be done.
Yeah.
Natalie (07:10):
Mm-hmm.
I think it's hard to convinceanybody that they need to work
if they're expecting justpassive modalities or passive
Andy (07:16):
percent.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
And so like an example of thatis that I would explain to
someone, I could manipulate yourfeet or give you a, a massage
and you'd feel better and belike, oh, that made me feel
better.
And then you'd want again nextweek.
And then you'd have to keepcoming back every week.
Or I can teach you how to do ityourself.
And that's far more powerful.
So that's what I do.
Yeah.
Natalie (07:35):
Yeah.
Amazing.
I'm glad that there are peoplelike you who, who want to do
that.
I think there's, there's lessmoney if we're talking business
wise in.
Maybe, I don't know.
I, I'm not, you know, I'mspeaking for myself.
If, if I were to give somebody,um, like done for them programs
rather than empower them tocreate their own programs as an
(07:56):
exercise physiologist, right?
And teach them how to exercise,then they rely on me forever and
ever.
And I get more income that wayversus like, go and do your
thing So I.
Andy (08:08):
are more likely to talk about you if you've empowered
them to look after themselvesand be more positive about that.
So I would, I would I say thatI'd rather 100 clients that I
see once than 10 clients that Isee 10 times over, and I think
that's a better business modelas well, because, You've
empowered people that are gonnatalk about you.
So you're gonna get, have thisbigger spread if you lose one of
them because of whatever, youknow, because they move away or
(08:31):
whatever.
You've only lost 1% of yourclientele.
If you lose one of the 10,you've lost 10% of your
clientele.
Um, and so I, and there areosteopath and, and some podiatry
practices here as well, anddefinitely chiropractic
practices that are all about.
Coming back over and over againand buying into that model of
care.
And like, I'm the opposite ofthat.
(08:52):
Like, I do get people in forreviews, especially if we need
to progress their exercises.
Um, that's just to be expected,but there's definitely not a an
over servicing, a especially inthat manual therapy.
Um, yeah.
Natalie (09:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that happens a lot here.
I talk to clients who are, Ihave to go to my chiropractor,
you know, three times a week forSix weeks.
Andy (09:16):
And as I sometimes wish I was an exercise, I had exercise
physiology up on my, um, youknow, on my board out the front
because then people would expectthat of me.
Unfortunately.
I mean, fortunately people nowknow tend to book in to see me.
It's a bit of a weight, so theyhave to have a bit of a more
serious problem because if itjust happened yesterday, They're
(09:38):
not likely to wait three or fourweeks to see me.
Um, and so they're more likelyto wait because they've been
told about the way I work.
But you know, when I startedthis I was like, oh, if I just,
if everyone just knew I didexercise physiology work,
basically, um, then they wouldexpect that.
But when they come in expectingan orthotic and to be kind of
pampered, then it makes itharder.
(09:58):
But it has changed a bit now.
Yeah.
Natalie (10:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's interesting.
A whole, whole new world.
I feel like
Andy (10:05):
Well unfortunately it shouldn't be, but it's, yeah.
Yeah,
Natalie (10:09):
Right, right.
One of my Instagram followerswas asking, why aren't more
podiatrists recommending minimalshoes?
Like, it makes so much sense.
Like once you can, once you seeit, you can't unsee it.
right?
So why is that the
Andy (10:21):
Such a good question.
And so when I was at podiatry,podiatrist not knowing about
this, and there was a big boomof minimal shoes around 2010,
and that was like, um, I wasalready out for 10 years and I
had, I remember people coming tome and asking, can I wear this
shoe?
What, what, what, what does thismean for my foot function?
And um, I would say things like,and I don't know what, I think I
got this from uni, I assume Iwould say things, oh no, the
(10:43):
foot muscles are too small to beable to train.
Like we just didn't know how totrain them.
And so we have to rely upon, um,support.
I just can't believe thatwould've come out of my mouth.
Now that I think to think thatour foot needs support, the
thing that was like we were bornwith that is totally adapted to
our.
(11:03):
Environment.
You know, there's a fewarguments about that as well.
But yeah, so that's what mostpodiatrists are still saying,
that you can't exercise yourfeet enough.
Or they'll say that a stiff shoeand an orthotic is better for
your foot.
Like it optimizes the footmotion.
But, um, the foot's motion isnot meant to be optimized in, in
one way.
It's, it's not meant to be like,One track thing, it's meant to
(11:26):
be adaptable and, and if I turnleft my foot, my left foot does
something different to my rightfoot.
And if I go uphill and downhilland you know, like our foot
changes with every step.
and, and if we're trying to makeit the same with every step to
optimize it, it just doesn'tmake any sense.
And so, um, yeah, but I was thatpodiatrist, I was saying exactly
what we'd been taught.
So I think the answer to that isto your Instagram follow it.
(11:49):
Is that it's what we're taught,unless you question what you're
taught, which is hard to do,like is you spend all this
money, you get a degree.
It's, it's like ingrained uponyou.
Natalie (11:58):
right.
Andy (11:58):
only if you have personal experience and, and nearly all
the podiatrists that are thisway aligned, have some personal
experience of, you know, havingto redefine what their own foot
function is and then findingthis way of treating.
Yeah.
But there are some mainstreamones that are really coming
around, at least in the wide toebox.
(12:19):
And I, and when it comes to a.
the one negotiable that I won'tnegotiate on.
It must have a wide toe box.
And so, um, some podiatriststhat are mainstream are seeing
the benefit.
They even call it an anatomicaltoe box, which I think is quite
funny because that means all theother toe boxes aren't
anatomical and
Natalie (12:39):
right.
Andy (12:39):
label this small subset of shoes as anatomical and the rest
as like normal.
You know, that doesn't make anysense to me.
Yeah.
Natalie (12:47):
Right, right.
It's, it's funny, I think likeonce I switch, I've been in
minimal shoes for about five orsix years now at least.
Um, and like I just look atconventional shoes.
I'm like, that isn't even cuteanymore.
Like, it doesn't, you know, itdoesn't even look appealing
because I know the damage thatit does and it's so apparent,
(13:08):
which is, yeah, just wild,
Andy (13:10):
in a little cocoon of clients and family and everyone
wearing minimal shoes.
So if I go down to the localshopping center or um, somewhere
where there is not thatenvironment, I'm kind of freaked
out by all the squish.
Natalie (13:23):
Yeah,
Andy (13:25):
But then I had to catch myself, cause I bought a pair.
I, I got sent a pair ofgroundings and they've got like
a regular fit and a wide fit.
And I think they sent me theregular fit.
And I was like, wow, they lookso good.
Oh, I love these, I love them,they look so good.
And I wore them just for themovie, so I was hardly even
standing up.
Um, and my big toes both gotsore just from having the, for
like three hours.
Natalie (13:44):
Hmm.
Andy (13:45):
and then I was like, wow, I thought they looked so good,
because they look more like a, atraditional shoe, you know?
And this is like me who'spreaching all this stuff, and
then I'm still falling into thattrap of thinking, oh, that looks
better.
Do you know what I mean?
So you have to be anyway.
Yeah,
Natalie (14:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like a paradigm shift, Ithink
Andy (14:03):
right.
Yeah.
Natalie (14:05):
Um, so you talked about the, the different ways that the
feet have to move, like theiroptimal movement.
Can you kind of run us throughlike what is an ideal gate
pattern and how the foot landsand interacts with the ground
when you're walking and thenalso when you're
Andy (14:20):
for sure.
So, um, in walking we've gotthis perfectly rounded heel.
It's designed for taking theweight of, of landing.
And so there's this sometheories of people, um, that say
that we should be, um, midfootstriking when we're, um, when
we're landing, when we'rewalking.
But ideally we should, we've gotthis massive fatty pad, like
I've dissected a fatty pad.
(14:40):
And it's like a fiber thing.
It's designed for taking loadand we've got this perfectly
round circuit surface.
So when we land, I think shouldland on the heel.
Um, and then if you follow wherethe thick bones of the foot are,
so they're here, here, and here.
Our weight should flow from theheel.
Up through there, across to thebig toe and then out through the
big toe.
(15:00):
And so that's, um, and thathappens when we pronate.
So pronation is a very goodthing.
Like we're designed to pronate.
This is our foot being unlockedand flexible, accommodating to
any surface.
Um, and then when we load up a,the big toe and ideally a
straight big toe.
it triggers all the muscles.
There's four layers of muscleshere.
They do this big contraction.
(15:22):
They squeeze and lock the foottogether so that as we push off
through our big toe, our footare rigid lever.
So we go from this mobileadapter to a rigid lever.
And so, um, that's how we'remeant to walk gen, like for the
purpose of this podcast, that avery simplified version when it
comes to running.
Ideally, like I, I don't even eeven in walking, I don't really
(15:42):
talk about foot strike or wherewe're meant to strike too much.
Our foot strike is a product ofthe way the rest of our body is
moving, and also this is inrunning and walking and also the
terrain.
So I went up, um, recently, theWorld Cross-Country
Championship.
So this is a elite, the best inthe world.
We're running here in Australia.
I drove like eight hours towatch them and there was a steep
(16:03):
downhill.
And they're all in runningspikes, which are very minimal
shoes, just about, except forthe week of the tow box.
So they're running in runningspikes, and to watch them go
downhill, they're running like,like two minutes, 30 a kilo, a
kilometer, or maybe, what'sthat?
Uh, almost four minute milepace.
So they're running very fast.
Natalie (16:21):
Yeah.
Andy (16:21):
they were going down the steep hill landing on their
heels.
And like there's, people say,oh, should never run on your
heels when you're running, um,land on your heels.
But this is a product of theirenvironment.
And then when they went uphill,they were up on their toes when
they were on the flat andrunning at an even pace.
Maybe some of them were sort ofheel striking and some were
midfoot striking, and somewherelike it depends on their
(16:42):
morphology, the way their body'sbuilt.
but probably at that levelthey're all landing with their
foot close to under their body.
So their posture is in a reallygood position.
And so we're more worried aboutwhen we're running an overs
strike, a foot that goes out infront of us a long way because
that's more likely to lead to aheavy heel strike and a lot of
breaking force up the rest ofthe leg.
So, um, I try not to think toomuch or definitely don't cue how
(17:06):
we should run on our foot, butwe'd be queuing how the rest of
the body should land and ideallythe foot lands close to under
us.
Cause then it.
Creating a spring as opposed toa break out in front of us.
And I guess it's similar towalking, um, because when we
walk uphill, we're gonna meetmore likely on the toes
downhill, more likely on a hill.
So it really is, um, quitesimilar to walking and the
(17:29):
further we put our leg out infront of us.
The more breaking force there iscompared to having good hip
extension.
So pushing our hip back behindus and that gets our leg pushing
from behind that pushes usforward more efficiently.
And I guess, um, this wheresitting a lot comes in when we
sit a lot, we get tight in thehip flexes and we lose that hip
extension.
And so we're more likely to bepushing our foot out in front of
(17:51):
us acting as a break.
So like, it's not just the foot,it's more about the rest of the
body.
Natalie (17:57):
Hmm.
I like that holistic approach.
So sit less is what
Andy (18:01):
Uh, yeah.
Sit less or sit in differentpositions that make you, um,
move your hips into differentplaces.
Yeah, yeah,
Natalie (18:10):
and then so if somebody is like, oh, I al always have
tight hip flexors and I can'tseem to get my glutes to engage,
what would
Andy (18:18):
I would, I would tell'em to, let's have a look at your
environment, and most likelythey're gonna be either driving
a lot, sitting in one position,a lot.
So I've got a, like a bit of anin here in Melbourne with, um,
some homeschooling familiesbecause they're more likely to
be on board with this type offootwear type of idea.
But what I'm noticing is thatI'm seeing kids like, especially
boys, nine to 14 years of ageand they're a bit obsessed by
(18:39):
gaming.
Um, in fact, I had a family comein recently.
Who are permissive parenters,which means they just let the
child do what they want.
And the boys have decidedthey're gonna be gamers.
And so they're gaming like for10 hours a day, and one has got
abducted hips.
So his feet are flared out likethis because he's just stuck in
a sitting position all the time.
And the other one, whenever hetries to exercise, he has
(19:00):
ankles.
So it's not my job to controltheir gaming, but it's my job to
educate that child, not theparents as much as to what a
body at that age should bedoing.
And it's like six to eight hoursof movement a day rather than
sitting.
and um, and the parentsunknowingly.
Provided them, these boys witha, this is just a, a snapshot
of, um, that, in a way to answeryour question with an ergonomic
(19:22):
desk for gaming.
So this is a desk that meansthey don't need to move at all.
You know, they can becomfortably sitting there in one
position for te probably sixhours, you know, until they get
hungry and get up and move orwhatever.
So they've actually designed aposition so.
The screen is perfect, thateverything's in perfect.
Like they've even got their feetat rest.
(19:42):
And so I'm like, I'm all foryour game.
Go for it.
Game yourself, but let's do itfrom the floor, because then
you'll move, um, every threeminutes because it's
uncomfortable, and then yourhips will start adjusting and
doing all these different thingsthat they're meant to do, rather
than being stuck in the sameposition.
So to answer your question, ifsomeone said they had tight hick
flexes and couldn't engage theirglutes, I would say, let's look
at your envi, your dailyenvironment.
(20:03):
That's probably where theanswer's gonna be.
Natalie (20:06):
Hmm.
Yeah, I like that answer.
Yes, I would absolutely agree.
I'm always telling people to getdown on the ground, take your
shoes off, move around.
Cuz it's, it's really the sum ofwhat we're doing all day rather
than the.
Half hour or hour in the gym.
Right.
Andy (20:23):
exactly.
Yeah.
Natalie (20:25):
Um, okay.
Speaking of kids, I had a couplequestions on kids, um, feet and
growing and so like, what wouldyou say if you were to have a
baby today and you wanna setthem up for the best success for
their feet strength, their footstrength, their hip strength,
everything, how would you start,how would you go about that?
(20:45):
What would you do and what wouldyou not
Andy (20:47):
with a newborn, um, like obvious, I'm, I like the closer
they get to and from whenthey're standing, I have more
realm.
So that first, um, 10 to 14months is a bit negotiable for
me, but I do understand that,um, tummy time and that strength
of, um, of using their body.
And being on the floor, even atthat age, is so important as
(21:07):
opposed to being in some cocoonthat is just holding them in the
same position.
Like it just gets their wholebody and those slings and those
reflexes moving.
Um, and so, uh, that's tillthen, but once they start
walking, and we're lucky here inAustralia.
We get sent to a maternal childhealthcare nurse, which is
someone you visit every month tostart with, and then every two
(21:29):
months and every three monthsuntil the child is four.
And so when the child startsYeah.
Which is, it's a great service.
It's a community service.
And when the child startswalking, um, the message that
the pediatricians, thesematernal child healthcare
nurses, um, everyone gives isthat the shoe should, that, that
if you're going to put a shoe ona child, it should be a wide.
Flat and flexible shoe.
(21:50):
A shoe that just mimics thembeing barefoot because this is
best for increasing ception.
That's our ability to know wherewe are in space.
Um, our muscular strength andbones within the foot and the
rest of the body, our balance,all these types of things are
benefited from wearing as littleshoe as possible when someone
(22:11):
starts.
So that's what I woulddefinitely advocate.
I would not advocate anyexercises or any, like making a
child do anything.
And if your child is latewalking, but crawling really
well, that's probably a goodthing.
You know, like, it's like wereally want to encourage
children to develop at theirnatural rate rather than pushing
them to do stuff.
You know, like I see parentsthat are lifting their kid up
(22:33):
and holding them, getting themto stand early, and then they're
worried that their feet are allover the place.
It's.
they're just not ready to dothat.
They'll do that when they'reready, you know?
Um, just if you give them theopportunity and that play, you
know.
So, um, definitely not exercisesis, I don't advocate for any
exercises for that, um, age.
And then, um, so that, that'sfootwear and movement.
(22:53):
And then when, what, whathappens here in Australia, and I
I say it's similar, there isthey go off to kindergarten or,
um, play school.
Um, you know, playgroup orwhatever, and kids get put into
the, their little Nikes, theirlittle asic added as the trendy
shoes.
And this is immediately puttinga heel on the shoe.
It's putting a, a squishy toe.
It's putting a big cushion,which is like, um, uh, putting
(23:17):
sunglasses instead of puttingsunglasses on to protect from
the suns, like putting ablindfold on or expecting your
child to learn how to speak ifyou put earmuffs on them the
whole time you are, you are justbasically doing a big noise
canceler on the soul of the.
And, and, and so then the bodyis not getting this react, this
ability, ability to react to itsenvironment.
(23:38):
And that happens here, I knowfrom about three or four or even
younger.
And then we wonder why we havefoot problems for the rest of
our life.
You know, when you are basicallytaking and other musculoskeletal
problems, like it can't be goodfor a developing need to be in a
heel healed shoe that tips thewhole body forward and you have
to push your knees back.
Um, so that's my take on kids.
(23:58):
Like it's the.
Easiest time to put them in thecorrect footwear because that's,
they're not used to anythingelse.
In fact, they hate, they hatehaving any cushioning on there
cause they, they wanna feel theground intuitively.
Um, and then like my kids werelucky, they got into something
called Tiptoe Joey, which is a,a brand from here in Australia
and Brazil.
um, because I knew that as apodiatrist.
(24:19):
But then once I saw their feetrolling in, um, at four and
five, I put them in orthoticsand stiff shoes.
I'd send my wife to the shopsand say, make sure the shoe is
stiffer here and only Ben'shere.
That's all I knew.
But when they were, they're now13 and 15.
So when they were eight, and 10,I just dumped their, I used to
make the orthotics for them.
I just like you're outta them.
(24:39):
We had a holiday where they werebarefoot all the time.
Their feet still don't lookideal, but the way they look
doesn't matter.
Like there's no research to saythat a foot that tips in or has
a flatter arch than the nextfoot is gonna be any worse off
than the foot that looks normalcause there's no such thing as
normal.
there's no research to say thatputting that orical, that stiff
(25:00):
shoe is gonna ha prevent themfrom having issues down the
track or in any way, shape, orform.
So I just like did this bigturnaround and at age in 10, my
kids just got used to minimalshoes immediately.
And most kids would like, theydon't need to be transitioned.
They just go like that.
So if your listeners are going,oh, my kid's been in a heeled,
cushioned, stiff shoe for four.
(25:22):
It doesn't matter.
They'll be, they'll, yes.
It's such an early phase.
It's, I think once you are 2025,you might find it harder to
transition because you've beenin it for 15 to 20 years.
But um, yeah, that's
Natalie (25:35):
Okay.
Andy (25:35):
problem.
While they're still growing,they're easy to adapt.
Yeah.
Natalie (25:39):
That's good news.
That's awesome.
I'm amazed that the nurses andthe, the pediatricians are
encouraging the minimal footwear
Andy (25:47):
Yeah.
Until they're three or four.
And then, um, they change thetune.
They need support.
Natalie (25:54):
Hmm.
Hmm.
Here it's, it's like put them inshoes as as soon as you want to
Andy (25:59):
away.
Natalie (26:00):
Yeah.
There's, there's not likeinstruction on to, you know, to
keep them in minimal footwear,which is, which is sad, but
hopefully we're changing thatUm, I did have a question about
socks.
Specifically.
Does sock wearing limit movementwith adults and especially
babies and
Andy (26:21):
think for babies, it definitely has their bone.
They don't have bones in theirfeet, they're just cartilage.
So if you're putting a tightsock on, this is not helpful for
the way their foot move.
So if you're gonna put a sockon, which is reasonable,
especially where you live.
Um, You wanna stretch the sockout first and make sure it's got
some root to play.
You don't want a tight sock.
I personally wear to socks,which is the um, and once you
(26:41):
start wearing to socks, it'svery hard to go back cause
everything feels constrictive towear spaces under your normal
socks.
even just a few times justaround home and then your normal
socks get a bit stretched andthen there's more space.
Um, I think socks do, like weare resilient bodies where our
bodies are resilient.
They can do a lot and put upwith a lot, but I still don't
(27:02):
think any clothing shouldrestrict our movement.
Like if I have to wear a shirt,that means I can't put my hand
above my head.
Um, I feel restricted.
If I have to wear that all thetime, my shoulder would end up
being restricted.
So I can still do it, but I'drather wear clothing.
Socks included that let my feetand body just move the way it's
meant to.
Natalie (27:23):
Amen to that
Andy (27:24):
right.
Natalie (27:26):
Yeah, I think about all of the, I mean, I'm speaking for
women specifically, but we tendto get the tighter shoes, right?
The more narrower shoes, themore restrictive clothing in
general, whether it's dressesor, um, workout gear, right?
Like all of the, the tight tanktops.
Leggings.
(27:46):
And I just think like my braingoes to like, what is that doing
to the pressure in your abdomenand your pelvic floor and what
is that doing to your feet?
And so yeah, I'm all forfreedom.
Freedom of movement and clothes.
Andy (27:58):
I used to go to work in a shirt and pants and a heeled
stiff shoe, and now I'm, I'mlike, if I just wear shorts and
a t-shirt the whole time, ifpeople don't think I'm
professional, I think I'd makeup for it by being professional
in other ways, you know?
So it's fine.
Yeah.
Natalie (28:12):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Um, okay.
Something you said.
Um, Gave me another question.
So there, there was a questionabout, um, maybe a kid who's
having trouble walking, so theyshould be walk, should be quote
unquote, should be walking.
Um, and the general, um, adviceis to put them in more solid
(28:33):
shoes that have a toe lift atthe front to help them kind of
learn to walk Um, what would yourecommend in
Andy (28:41):
Well, like it's, it depends on their age really.
Like if they're, if they shouldbe walking by 18 months of age,
it's probably right.
They sh they probably should bewalking by then.
And I think you to look, to lookat it locally by changing their
shoe is probably missing what'sactually going on.
There could be so many otherdifferent things going on.
And so you gotta get to the, thecore of that.
Um, I had a client who had astroke when she was about 18
(29:04):
months old.
Natalie (29:06):
Oh wow.
Andy (29:07):
And so, um, she's had to relearn to walk.
This is a, so this is a reallygood example.
Um, it's probably the best timein your life to have a stroke
just about, because yourneurological system is still
quite underdeveloped and you'vestill got so much growth stuff
going on that you're gonna catchup pretty quickly.
And, um, and so the physicaltherapists and the occupational
therapists were all aboutputting her own brace.
(29:29):
and, and stiff shoes.
Cause she had a bit of a footdrop, like her foot wasn't.
And um, and mom was like, oh, Idon't think this really, this
doesn't ring true for me.
So she sought me out, you know,and, um, We, we got her doing,
not foot exercise, but beingbarefoot.
She lives near the beach, sojust like playing barefoot,
being in barefoot shoes and, andwhat we see now, cuz she'll
(29:52):
always probably have this damageto some extent.
What we see mostly now is oversummer when she can be really
barefoot a lot and really, andmoving her whole body a lot.
Her movement is so much betterthan over winter when she's in
more of a closed in environmentand not moving.
And so we're seeing, and maybeas she a gets older, it will
flatten out a bit because she'llbe doing activities during the
(30:13):
winter a bit more and a bit moreresilient.
But, um, that was a greatexample of if you're gonna get
something stronger, we, weshould expose it to something
that makes it stronger ratherthan something that stops it.
And so if we put a brace aroundsomething just cause it's not
moving and expect it still tomove better, we're just, I think
we're gonna become reliant uponthat brace.
Natalie (30:35):
Mm-hmm.
Andy (30:36):
is, um, a six-year-old with high, a high diagnosed
hypermobility disorder, butunusually has really high arch
feet and came to me after beingin the public system.
with Children's, children'sHospital, um, with orthotics.
And the mom had been doingreally well with exercise for
her, um, sim for her samehypermobility disorder.
Um, and, and said, oh, you know,my daughter's in orthotics.
(30:59):
Do I still, does she, should sheneed to be like, is if she's, if
she's like me, shouldn't she bebenefiting from exercise?
So we took her orthos out, puther at a minimum, a minimal
shoe, and then over.
She did far less exercise, soshe wasn't doing her gymnastics,
wasn't doing her dancing, wasn'tat school.
Just more relaxed.
And we noticed one of her feetreally changing the way I moved
compared to the other almost.
(31:19):
And then when I test how strongshe could get out of.
That pro pronated position whenpushing off, she was really
struggling.
And that's like the heartmobility disorder really having
an effect on this one foot.
So we've gone back to using anorthotic in a minimal shoe, not
an orthotic that's super stiff,just something that kind of
reminds the muscles in the area.
Let's do a job here.
(31:39):
It's almost like the way I Iexplain it is, you know, you see
the tennis players, the elitetennis players, or even just the
people down the road, um, withtape on their arms.
It's not changing the way.
there are moves, but it mightbring awareness to the muscles
in the area to change it.
And so, so we're using anorthotic for six months and
we're gonna reassess and see howour foot's going.
(32:00):
And so it's not a life sentence.
So even if they had to go intothose shoes and got them up
walking and gave themconfidence, it doesn't mean they
should be in that shoe forever.
Like let's just use these toolsif they're helpful to get
someone over a little landmark,but be doing the rehab in the
back.
Natalie (32:15):
makes total sense So much
Andy (32:18):
Iry is generally said, here's a methodic and you need
it for life cause you've gotsomething wrong with you.
And I don't really think there'smany people at all that's got
something, anything wrong withthem.
They just have a unique set ofsymptoms or way to move and we
just have to embrace it.
And maybe there's a few littlespots that need a bit of work
and we can do that with exercisegenerally.
Natalie (32:38):
Yeah, no, I agree fully.
I did have a question fromsomeone who has a diagnosed
hypermobility disorder, um,which is interesting as an
adult.
Um, and they were wonderingwhat, so they've been in minimal
shoes for several years now.
Um, have.
Been active, have been reallyfocusing on nutrition and all of
(32:59):
that, um, to get to the placethat they want to be, but
they're still having some painwith walking.
Um, they didn't specify likewhat specifically, but blisters
on the feet and pain.
Um, so is there anything morethey could be doing potentially
maybe like a softer orthotic or
Andy (33:16):
yeah, for sure.
Like there's, it doesn't have tobe all or nothing.
And I think this is what Imentioned before, like I was
probably gung ho like everyoneneeds to be in as minimal as
possible.
But um, as long as you'reembrace, like if there's a
spectrum of natural footfunction, And, um, being in, uh,
super rigid orthotic in a hawkershoe is, is like one end of the
(33:38):
spectrum, just next door to amoon boot basically.
Um, and the other end of the islike barefoot all the time.
Just finding where someone's atand I try and just move them in
this direction.
So for that person, maybethey've gone a bit far in that
direction, you know, too fardown the, um, minimalist too
quickly because we know withthose hypermobility conditions
(34:00):
that they're very slow tochange.
But exercise is still the key.
It's a hundred percent still thekey.
And so we don't wanna throw thebaby out with the bathroom and
say, these shoes are terrible.
We just need to go, okay, wemight have had a bit too much of
this.
Let's just, let's just regulatethe dose and, and meet it, meet
it with some exercise and meetit with some habitual change
(34:20):
and, you know, make sure likewe're looking at all those
different fronts rather thanit's just about being sensible.
It doesn't have to be all ornothing.
Yeah.
And that person may never getto, um, you know, a 5K barefoot
walk on the beach.
Um, but.
you know, so, and, and that'sokay.
As long as they're okay with it.
If they wanna get there, theycan.
I think if people are driven,like people come and say to me,
(34:41):
I wanna run a marathon barefoot.
I'm like, okay, if that's whatyou wanna do, these are the
hurdles we have to cross.
And like some people will do iteasily.
Other people have got morehurdles to cross.
It just depends on what youwant.
Yeah.
Natalie (34:54):
No, that's a really good reminder.
It doesn't have to be all ornothing.
I think a lot of times in healthwe assume that if I'm gonna do
this, I'm gonna do it all theway.
I'm
Andy (35:03):
Health and social media.
Health and social media isdefinitely that way.
Inclined.
Like the, the things that ratewell are the big.
Um, red Cross and the big greentick.
And if you're doing this, you'rewrong.
And if you're doing this, you'reright.
And, um, that's not, um, dealingwith the human in front of you.
And I think the people that dothat Red Cross green tick are
more than likely not seeinghumans in pain in front of them.
(35:25):
Because when you've got a humanin pain in front of you, the
chips are on the table and youhave to come up with something
that helps them.
And, and that's not always gonnafollow those, um, green ticks
and red crosses.
Natalie (35:36):
Yeah.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Okay.
I have to go back to kids forone more question.
Um, somebody asked specificallyfor shoes that are flexible but
solid enough for cold weathercuz we get pretty.
Pretty chilly up here,
Andy (35:50):
it's a really big, um, question.
And I, coming from Melbourne,Australia, I'm probably not best
place to answer that becauselike our coldest would be zero
degree morning, you know?
Um, but still then I still wanta nice boot on my foot when I'm
walking the dog.
Natalie (36:06):
right?
Right.
Yeah.
No, I mean that's pretty cold.
zero is cold.
Andy (36:09):
So, um, then, um, you should look those people,
whoever listening to this and,and wanna answer that question,
like, VI Bare would have somegreat brands, BAA Shoes, baka
have some great shoes, and Zero,they're the big three shoe
producers.
And then there's all theselittle nuanced ones.
But someone like Anya's Reviews,it's a N Y A S, although I said
that a's reviews on a socialmedia post the other day.
(36:32):
Um, asking, answering the samequestion and someone.
She's not from the cold like Iam.
She doesn't know what she'stalking about.
I'm like, well, why are youasking me then?
I'm from Melbourne.
You know, I didn't say that.
I never answer negativecomments.
Um, anyway, so I think she'sprobably got some really good
resources there.
Natalie (36:50):
She's amazing.
I actually had her on thepodcast
Andy (36:53):
very good.
Yeah.
Natalie (36:54):
Yes, yes.
She's
Andy (36:56):
So, um, she's got some great resources and there are a
few others that have some reallygood resources.
I think one called BarefootUniverse.
They are in, they're in Europe,so that should be cold enough
for people and some parts ofEurope.
And then there's also theBarefoot Shoe Review and the
Barefoot Shoe Guide.
These are like the big four, youknow?
Yeah.
They've all got their, theirlists and you just have to go in
(37:16):
there and find out what you wantand, uh, spits out the answers.
There are 140 barefoot shoebrands, so it's very hard to
isolate.
Natalie (37:24):
Yes.
Yeah.
And everybody has their ownpreferences too, I feel like.
And.
Yeah.
Okay, cool.
Thank you.
Um, a couple questions aboutbunions.
I got a few actually.
So if you could talk about whatbunions are, what causes them,
and then the main question islike, how do we fix them?
(37:45):
Or do I need surgery?
When is surgery necessary?
That kind of Yeah.
Andy (37:51):
I'll just get another prop.
Okay.
Natalie (37:53):
Perfect.
I love props,
Andy (37:57):
So, um, I'll go through this.
This is how I explain it in theclinic.
I have a, um, a zoom call afterthis with someone in London.
So she's, she'll be hearingthis, um, exact same thing that
I'm telling you now cause she'sgot a funny, um, so, um, these
two bones, the first and thesecond metatarsal are often, um,
pretty parallel.
Someone with bunions, thegenetic, there's two genetic
(38:19):
factors that I like to reallybring out to point.
Um, uh, that's a, a wider toebase.
Okay?
So if we took an x-ray ofsomeone with a bunion and nearly
always wider here, okay?
That angle,
Natalie (38:31):
Hmm.
Andy (38:32):
that's genetic factor one, big genetic factor one, genetic
factor two is mobility.
So we've seen more women, um,With bunions than men for two
reasons.
They're more likely to wearsquishy shoes, like you said,
but also they're generally moreflexible.
And so a big stiff toe on a, youknow, a big, strong stiff man is
less likely to become a bunioncompared to a woman that's got a
(38:54):
flexible toe.
So the flexibility of thejoints.
and that space are the twogenetic factors, so we cannot
change them.
Generally speaking, if thosepeople never wore a shoe,
they'll just have a nice broadfoot like this.
Okay?
And we know that in unscommunities there is less
buttons.
So people that don't wear shoesdon't get buttons so much.
(39:14):
Then we look at the environment.
So the environmental factors.
So we've got genetic factors andthen environmental factors,
genetic factors, uh, those twothat I mentioned.
Environmental factors are thefootwear.
So when, if this, if this bigtoe is meant to be a hinge like
this, a straight hinge, as soonas we put it in a shoe, this is
the dog ate this one, sorry.
Um, that, that's the inside.
(39:36):
Yeah, there's that hinge.
So there's one side of thehinge, there's the other, and
there's the straight big toe.
So a shoe like this, even yourcommon running shoe or walking
shoe, whatever, they nearly allpush your big toe side.
So when you add.
and this to a shoe, that's whereyou get a bunion.
Okay.
And so, um, we see an a bunion.
We don't see ex, there's a bitof extra bone growing there, but
(39:58):
mostly it's just a joint, kindaalmost dislocating.
So the joint comes out likethis.
And so when they do surgery, um,they cut this bone and
straighten it.
Okay?
And then bring, and they take,maybe they fix up the bone here,
but generally they bring thisalignment back to there.
They may pin it for a while.
There are muscles on the insideand muscles on the outside.
This is the outside of yourbody.
(40:19):
Inside of your body.
Um, this, these ones get weakand loose, and these ones get
tight.
And strong.
So they might release thosemuscles and tighten these ones.
That's what they might do insurgery.
But as soon as we cut into thefoot, it's never the same.
It's like a, it's a huge deal,like cutting into any other part
of our body, but possibly even abigger deal when it comes to the
foot.
So it should always be the lastoption.
(40:41):
and you can, if you can rehab ortry and rehabilitate your foot
before surgery and you still endup having surgery, you're gonna
come out of that surgery in afar better position because of
the rehab you did before.
And most foot surgeons don'tadvocate for any rehabilitation
after it.
You know, they'll just be like,oh, just walking or just stay
off it.
So it's like going in for kneesurgery and not having
(41:02):
rehabilitation as an exercisephysiologist, you would
understand this is just likecraziness.
So, um, nearly every button thatI see.
I think maybe two a year.
I say, look, you're probablygonna need surgery because there
are four stages of bunion.
There's this like stage one,stage two, stage three, stage
four You know, like, so whenit's stage four and there's no,
(41:24):
I can't those muscles toactivate, I'm like, okay, let's
do the rehab with a view toprobably having surgery.
but generally we try and giveyou exercises to strengthen this
and to, and, and mobility workto loosen this off because that
creates balance here.
We go back to the ankle and seewhat's creating more force at
(41:44):
the big toe joint.
So we change, uh, we try andstrengthen on the inside of the
ankle as well.
Sometimes people have some weakstabilizers here, so their big
toes flapping around.
So we work on that and then wego up to the hip and look at,
see how fast that rate of thefoot rolling in is because we
can control that from the hip.
So we're looking like all theway through.
(42:04):
And if you look at, um, a'sreviews, she and I didn't
article together explainingexactly this.
Natalie (42:11):
Oh, nice.
Okay.
Andy (42:12):
Um, and so we're kind of looking locally, um, integrating
into the way the foot moves andthen integrating into the way
the whole body moves.
But all of this is.
A waste of time if you don'tchange the environment.
And so that's why I'm sopassionate about shoes because
if we keep staying in this shoeand don't change this shoe
that's straight here with a bigtoe, we end up doing all the
(42:33):
work and then just undoing it inthis shoe as opposed to just
doing this.
And so my wife has a very goodexample, probably four years
now, she's been in minimalshoes, um, had foot pain her
whole life, never liked toexercise.
I made her orthotics for like 20years and she'd still had foot
pain.
She never complained about it.
It was just like her lot inlife, you know?
Um, then I found about all this,about all this, and then told
(42:57):
her about it all and changed hershoes.
And I give her exercises to do.
I give her toe spaces, I giveher, um, like a mobility work,
footwear.
And she does none of it exceptfor the footwear.
Like not one single exercise.
Never.
Like I put the toe spaces on herfor her.
Oh no, get them off.
Get them off.
Not one.
(43:17):
she will, she wear toe socksnow, but um, only changed her
footwear and we've seen like astage two become a stage one and
be far less painful.
Unlike if she does a lot of herfeet, they'll still get sore.
Um, but far less compared towhat she used to deal with, um,
just because of change offootwear.
Cause we change the environment.
So she's got those geneticfactors.
(43:37):
If I look at her mom and herdad, they've got similar feet.
but then, but when you take awaythat environmental factor, it
makes a huge difference.
Um, and a funny story aboutthat.
She went out with her friendsand they're kind of close
friends, but not that close.
And she probably wanted to looka certain way because she's
gonna, people that she wasn'ttotally comfortable with.
And so she put her old boot on,which was a heel like this and
(43:58):
squishy like this.
And she got from the bedroom,which is one end of the house in
the front door, and then shetook it off.
She's like, oh, I can't do this.
And she put her grand on.
Yeah.
So, um, yeah.
Natalie (44:10):
Aw
Andy (44:10):
there you go.
I think that's a pretty goodsummary of bunion.
Natalie (44:13):
That was amazing.
Yeah.
I do have one question cuz acouple of people asked about
pinky toe bunion.
So bunion on the outside of the
Andy (44:19):
Yeah.
So it's called, it's calledTaylor's Bunion.
It's like this, that bit there,um, this bit here.
It's called a Taylor's bunion.
Cause Taylors used to sit withtheir feet this way to do the
mill, and they'd get thisTaylor's bunion.
And so it's the same effect.
It's, it's not, Debilitating.
Cause we don't need to use thatjoint as much as we need to use
this one.
(44:39):
Um, but generally there's amuscle here so we can strengthen
that one, loosen these ones off,create an environment that
pushes the toe up, makeexercises to try and strengthen
that area.
Yeah.
But mostly the environment.
Natalie (44:53):
Excellent.
I'm amazed at how much canchange with just the shoes
without any rehab.
I think your wife is basicallyan experiment.
You
Andy (45:01):
She's, she's.
Natalie (45:03):
use her as a social experiment.
Andy (45:05):
you know, like all the naysayers will go, oh, that's
only one person.
I'm like, well, that's clinicalevidence.
And clinical evidence has a lotto say.
And generally speaking, um,people think that natural, what
I do is a bit like, um, Likecowboy podiatry.
But if, like, if I look at anyresearch in any other field,
knees, hips, shoulders, backs,it's all about strength and re
(45:27):
strength and conditioning.
That's where all the research isgoing.
Podiatry is just like in thedark ages.
And, um, so I don't have anyproblem practicing the way I do.
If anyone ever said, oh, you arenegligent, I'd be like, well,
here is the body of evidencethat, um, suggests that can be
transferred over to what I do.
It just doesn't.
Um, To pay as well, but I justcharge a lot for my time and
(45:50):
have a lot of clients because Ihave a, a, a broad spread of
word of mouth because peoplelike what I do.
So it does pay as well in theend
Natalie (45:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Okay.
Um, that was amazing.
Bunion summary.
I learned, I learned somethings.
so can you tell us some of yourfavorite resources?
So if somebody wants to learnmore, and you can, you could
pump your own Instagram accountand all of that as well, but
what do you like to refer to forpeople
Andy (46:20):
I, I really like, um, so I think social media's been a
wonderful advocate for, um, thismovement.
Um, but you kind of have to wadethrough some of that black and
white stuff and realize thatthere's a bit of gray in there.
My account, uh, I would say ispretty, uh, up to date and
reasonable and.
Um, I, I really do cover myself.
(46:41):
I never keep it, um, black andwhite now, um, that's just my
name and podiatrist.
Um, a's account is really goodin terms of, um, footwear, like
highly recommend that GaitHappens is another one that's,
um, I think I mentioned before.
Um, that's, that's like thathigher level, like really, um,
more intense, um, scrutiny onthe way someone moves.
(47:03):
But that's super interestingfor.
Um, and then you can also lookinto like vivo, barefoot, and
correct toes.
They've got really goodresources for this type of
thing.
Yeah.
Um, I was gonna say somethingelse as well.
Oh, there's something called theHealthy Feet Alliance, and
that's like a group of us thathave come together.
I think, I don't know whostarted that, but, um, they've
(47:24):
got an approved practitioner'slist.
And so like I get asked foronline consultations all the
time, and they're okay to do,but it's better to do them in
person.
So you can go to that and seetheir approved practitioner list
and there's someone an houraway, you know, if, if they're,
if they're legit, you shouldn'thave to see them over and over
again.
You should see them.
They set you up, they check inwith you.
Like it shouldn't have to bethat, that you're reliant upon
(47:44):
seeing them.
So that's a really goodresource.
Healthy Feet Alliance.
Um, they're doing some reallygood
Natalie (47:49):
new to.
Andy (47:49):
that space.
And the Foot Collective as well.
They've been a big support ofmine.
Um, they're also very black andwhite in their message, so you,
you gotta take that with a grainof salt.
But generally speaking, they,they have good resources and
they've got good online.
online, uh, like so likeexercise, things to do for your
feet.
And the last one I shouldmention is Lilian Home, h o l M.
(48:13):
She's a, um, she's calledhypermobility doctor.
Do you know her?
Anyway, so
Natalie (48:17):
I actually do, yeah.
Andy (48:20):
For, for, because I do deal with a lot of people with,
uh, hyper mobile and even justto give them a sense of then
they're not the only one dealingwith this sensation that's going
on in their body, you know?
Um, and that level of pain andthat constant, um, reminder that
they have that condition goingon.
So she's got a great InstagramPLA page, but also her blog as
(48:40):
well is really good.
I just send people there ratherthan me explaining all that,
that pain, that pain sciencetype of stuff.
Yeah.
Natalie (48:47):
Yeah.
Amazing, and I'll link all ofthose in the show notes so
everybody can find those easily.
Um, okay.
I have two questions that I askevery single guest.
We'll wrap up with those.
So first one is, what's yournumber one piece of advice for
our listeners?
What do you want everyone toknow?
Andy (49:05):
Um, uh, can I give you two things?
Natalie (49:08):
Yes, you can.
Andy (49:09):
foot doesn't, the foot doesn't need support.
Generally speaking, it cansupport itself and to take your
shoes off and not be scared togo barefoot.
Natalie (49:17):
Succinct and beautiful.
I love it, Okay.
Second question is, what is yourfavorite wellness habit that you
incorporate into your own dailylife?
Andy (49:26):
Um, like almost constant movement as in, uh, I hardly
ever sit still, so, and it's notlike I'm.
Being busy or, um, movingvigorously, but I'm moving very
regularly from one position tothe next, and I combine that
with a nap nearly every day.
Natalie (49:46):
Amazing
Andy (49:49):
10
Natalie (49:49):
gonna adopt that.
I love
Andy (49:51):
yeah.
Naps.
10 to 15 minutes of most days.
Yeah.
Natalie (49:57):
and if you are not watching this, Andy has been on
the floor this entire podcastrecording.
He's been moving around doingdifferent shapes with his hips
sitting in different positions.
It's, it's, he's really trulypracticing what he preaches.
So, um, okay.
Can you tell us one last timewhere listeners can find you
online, what you offer, if youdo any online services, and then
(50:20):
Yeah.
Andy (50:21):
um, on Instagram, I'm and Andy Bryant underscore
podiatrist.
Um, and I do do online, but Imostly try and find someone near
you for you.
So you can always just shout outand I'll just lead you to a list
of people that might be nearyou.
Um, And then, but, but somepeople are a bit far away from
that.
So I do do online consultations,which work pretty well to tell
the truth.
I do a movement screen and get afull history, and then we just,
(50:43):
you know, chat like you and Iare now and, um, come up with a,
that type of thing.
Um, I'm, I work in Melbourne,Australia, I.
Work out of a little practicecalled Mount Wave Podiatry and
Melbourne Natural Podiatry.
Um, so it's amazing how manypeople might listen to this or
listen to podcasts and then theyend up being only like five
kilometers away or something andthey're like, oh, that guy's
just around the corner.
So if I didn't say that, I'd bemissing out as well.
(51:04):
So there you go.
Natalie (51:06):
Awesome.
Well, Andy, thank you so, somuch for being here and spending
your time and energy with me.
I super appreciate it and I knowall of our listeners are going
to be very excited for thisepisode.
Andy (51:17):
for having me, Natalie.
Natalie (51:18):
My top takeaway from my conversation with Andy was that
just like anything in health,minimal footwear isn't all or
nothing.
I know I definitely need thatreminder often in my life as I
like to do things only a hundredpercent or not at all.
I really appreciate his.
Practical approach to foothealth, as well as his love of
educating his clients and onlineaudience as well.
(51:41):
So if you don't follow him onInstagram, be sure to remedy
that as soon as you can.
I've linked all of the resourceshe mentioned, as well as his
site and social pages for you tofollow in the show notes for
this episode.
Please remember that what youhear on this podcast is not
medical advice, but remember toalways do your own research and
talk to your healthcare teambefore making any important
(52:02):
decisions about your wellness.
If you found this podcasthelpful, please consider writing
a five star review in yourfavorite podcast app.
Thanks so much for listening.
I'll catch you next time.
On today's episode, I chat with Andy Bryant about
natural podiatry, common footissues like bunions, and the
best way to set your kids up fora lifetime of foot strength.
I'm Natalie and you're listeningto the Resource Doula Podcast, a
place where we provideinformation to help you make
informed healthcare decisionsfor yourself and your family.
(00:20):
Andy has been a podiatrist forover 20 years.
For much of that time, he was ina traditional practice, but
through yoga and self-discovery,he started strengthening his own
feet too.
Good not to share.
He now has a practice basedaround helping his clients win
back their natural foot functionthrough exercise, but even more
importantly, habitual changes tolifestyle and foot.
(00:56):
Hey Andy, welcome to the show.
Andy (00:58):
me, Natalie.
Natalie (00:58):
Absolutely.
Okay.
I'm really, really curious.
I wanna start out asking youwhat made you want to be a
podiatrist in the first place,and then how did you transition
to more minimal footwear?
The barefoot life?
Andy (01:12):
it's a, um, that's a long story.
So I'll start, I'll start andstart.
So when I was at school, stillin high school, I think I wanted
to be a physiotherapist, whichis like a physical therapist
there.
Um, but it took a lot of highmarks.
And so I don't think I had thosemarks to tell you the truth.
Um, and then, um, I did a workexperience.
So we go and sit in with aphysical therapist and there's,
(01:32):
there was a podiatrist there aswell, and she's like, oh, come
watch this.
I'm doing a toenail surgery,which is where you dig out an
ingrown toenail.
And I'm like, oh, that'samazing.
So then I was kind of fascinatedby that and went into podiatry.
Um, at university as well.
And it's different here comparedto the states we do, it's more
like an allied health comparedto a, um, being a, a doctor.
So more like a physicaltherapist.
(01:54):
Um, but while I was studying it,I'm like, oh, I don't think I
really wanna do this.
But I noticed that I enjoyedteaching other people.
And so I did my honors, whichwas an, uh, sort of a research
and clinical based honors,honors where I got to teach the
undergraduates.
And, um, I really enjoyed that.
But then I started, um, alsoworking and enjoying working and
(02:15):
earning money, I guess.
And before I knew it, I was ina, um, in a partnership for like
nearly 20 years of verymainstream podiatry.
and that was, uh, we had our ownlittle orthotic lab.
We, we did all the normalpodiatry things.
Um, and then I had, I was aserious cyclist and had a few,
um, concussions from fallingoff, and I wasn't allowed to
(02:37):
ride anymore, so I went to ayoga class.
I don't even know why I justwent there for exercise.
Someone had said, oh, you shouldgo.
And, um, well, um, apart fromall the other benefits of doing
yoga regularly, I noticed thatmy own feet were getting
stronger.
And I had a big runningbackground and been in orthotics
for 20 years myself.
And I like had a lot of ideasaround why I needed them and,
(03:00):
um, what all that meant.
But just noticed that my ownfeet were getting stronger.
I was also starting to go to thegym for the first time in years
and, and people were tradingbarefoot there and I was
questioning all this type ofstuff and I was still just doing
mainstream podiatry.
Um, and then, Just thought,well, why can't I get my clients
to have stronger feet ratherthan supported feet?
(03:21):
And that probably was thetrigger for me leaving that
business partnership becausethat wasn't gonna change there.
And so I went out on my own andthat really just opened the
flood gates for me to be able topractice as I want to.
And um, yeah, so for the lastthree years, I've just been
practicing as I want to, as.
Natural podiatrist or apodiatrist that promotes less is
(03:43):
more like trying to get peoplemoving down to wearing less on
their feet and strengtheningtheir feet, rehabilitating their
feet as you would any other partof the body.
And so it's just been thisnatural progression from like
one extreme to almost the other.
But I think I probably even tostart with, went into this
extreme of like, everyone has tobe barefoot and now I'm coming
(04:03):
back to meeting them wherethey're at, you know?
So I feel like, um, I'm becominga better practitioner and almost
full circle.
Um, that's the point of tellingyou about that education staff
at the start, I've just starteda.
Something called the Better FootProject, where a physio here in
Melbourne as well.
And I, she's really focused onfeat, uh, teaching other allied
health professionals how we lookafter feet because, um, it's
(04:27):
really poorly done.
And, um, so we're starting up acourse, so I'm going back to
being that educator that's justgonna be on weekends, but who
knows where that might lead me.
Yeah.
And
Natalie (04:37):
No, that's amazing.
Andy (04:39):
um, now most of my work is educating people as to how to be
or what to do as opposed to themrelying on me.
So I do feel like I've come thatfull circle and I'm back to
being an educator more thananything else.
Yeah.
Natalie (04:52):
Hmm Hmm.
I think that echoes, I mean,I've had a lot of different
practitioners on this podcast,and most of them are kind of
focused around the perinatalspace where they have clients
who are.
Pregnant or postpartum, andthey're transitioning into more
of the education, like taking,having the client take more
responsibility for their health.
(05:13):
And I think that's a huge trendwith just wellness in general
right now in the world.
Um, do you feel like it's morecommon for natural podiatry and
foot focused people in Australiaversus the us or
Andy (05:28):
No, I don't think so.
Not at all.
Um, but I think it's more commonfor people to want to be looking
after themselves.
And so I, I deal with clientsthat want to, uh, that are
motivated to look afterthemselves.
I don't deal with the ones thatwant a quick fix or that want me
to manipulate their fee or torely on Aho.
And so you definitely have a, amarket or a type of client, but
(05:48):
that, that, um, space is growingas in.
A lot of the public are, aremore aware to wanting to do it
themselves or be not reliantupon a health practitioner.
Here in Australia, there's a, aspodiatrist where there's a huge
reliance upon the orthotic andorthotic, um, income.
and, and so, um, it's definitelynot the case that there's more
(06:11):
natural podiatry here than, likeI could name on one hand how
many natural podiatrists thereare in Australia, or maybe two
hands lucky.
Um, but in the States it'sprobably quite similar.
And maybe it's a chiropractor ora physical therapist that's
doing the work that I do.
Um, and, and there's like twopodiatrists that I can think of
that might practice like I do,which is a bit sad because in
um, the states, it's a bigsurgical.
(06:33):
Um, surgery and orthotics arethe big part of podiatry and,
but you know, the guy that I'mthinking of is Ray McClanahan.
He, he, he's, um, devised thesethings called correcto, which
are to spaces, and he, um, He'sbeen trying to do this for like
25 years and trying to encourageother people to do it and, and
he's just been, you know, justso patient and now that people
(06:55):
are on board with this, I canjust imagine how excited he's,
but he could also, he, he's alsovery understanding that it's a
very long, slow burn.
Cause he's been trying to dothis stuff for 20 to 25 years
and he, he's got a greatpractice set up around it so it
can be done.
Yeah.
Natalie (07:10):
Mm-hmm.
I think it's hard to convinceanybody that they need to work
if they're expecting justpassive modalities or passive
Andy (07:16):
percent.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
And so like an example of thatis that I would explain to
someone, I could manipulate yourfeet or give you a, a massage
and you'd feel better and belike, oh, that made me feel
better.
And then you'd want again nextweek.
And then you'd have to keepcoming back every week.
Or I can teach you how to do ityourself.
And that's far more powerful.
So that's what I do.
Yeah.
Natalie (07:35):
Yeah.
Amazing.
I'm glad that there are peoplelike you who, who want to do
that.
I think there's, there's lessmoney if we're talking business
wise in.
Maybe, I don't know.
I, I'm not, you know, I'mspeaking for myself.
If, if I were to give somebody,um, like done for them programs
rather than empower them tocreate their own programs as an
(07:56):
exercise physiologist, right?
And teach them how to exercise,then they rely on me forever and
ever.
And I get more income that wayversus like, go and do your
thing So I.
Andy (08:08):
are more likely to talk about you if you've empowered
them to look after themselvesand be more positive about that.
So I would, I would I say thatI'd rather 100 clients that I
see once than 10 clients that Isee 10 times over, and I think
that's a better business modelas well, because, You've
empowered people that are gonnatalk about you.
So you're gonna get, have thisbigger spread if you lose one of
them because of whatever, youknow, because they move away or
(08:31):
whatever.
You've only lost 1% of yourclientele.
If you lose one of the 10,you've lost 10% of your
clientele.
Um, and so I, and there areosteopath and, and some podiatry
practices here as well, anddefinitely chiropractic
practices that are all about.
Coming back over and over againand buying into that model of
care.
And like, I'm the opposite ofthat.
(08:52):
Like, I do get people in forreviews, especially if we need
to progress their exercises.
Um, that's just to be expected,but there's definitely not a an
over servicing, a especially inthat manual therapy.
Um, yeah.
Natalie (09:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that happens a lot here.
I talk to clients who are, Ihave to go to my chiropractor,
you know, three times a week forSix weeks.
Andy (09:16):
And as I sometimes wish I was an exercise, I had exercise
physiology up on my, um, youknow, on my board out the front
because then people would expectthat of me.
Unfortunately.
I mean, fortunately people nowknow tend to book in to see me.
It's a bit of a weight, so theyhave to have a bit of a more
serious problem because if itjust happened yesterday, They're
(09:38):
not likely to wait three or fourweeks to see me.
Um, and so they're more likelyto wait because they've been
told about the way I work.
But you know, when I startedthis I was like, oh, if I just,
if everyone just knew I didexercise physiology work,
basically, um, then they wouldexpect that.
But when they come in expectingan orthotic and to be kind of
pampered, then it makes itharder.
(09:58):
But it has changed a bit now.
Yeah.
Natalie (10:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's interesting.
A whole, whole new world.
I feel like
Andy (10:05):
Well unfortunately it shouldn't be, but it's, yeah.
Yeah,
Natalie (10:09):
Right, right.
One of my Instagram followerswas asking, why aren't more
podiatrists recommending minimalshoes?
Like, it makes so much sense.
Like once you can, once you seeit, you can't unsee it.
right?
So why is that the
Andy (10:21):
Such a good question.
And so when I was at podiatry,podiatrist not knowing about
this, and there was a big boomof minimal shoes around 2010,
and that was like, um, I wasalready out for 10 years and I
had, I remember people coming tome and asking, can I wear this
shoe?
What, what, what, what does thismean for my foot function?
And um, I would say things like,and I don't know what, I think I
got this from uni, I assume Iwould say things, oh no, the
(10:43):
foot muscles are too small to beable to train.
Like we just didn't know how totrain them.
And so we have to rely upon, um,support.
I just can't believe thatwould've come out of my mouth.
Now that I think to think thatour foot needs support, the
thing that was like we were bornwith that is totally adapted to
our.
(11:03):
Environment.
You know, there's a fewarguments about that as well.
But yeah, so that's what mostpodiatrists are still saying,
that you can't exercise yourfeet enough.
Or they'll say that a stiff shoeand an orthotic is better for
your foot.
Like it optimizes the footmotion.
But, um, the foot's motion isnot meant to be optimized in, in
one way.
It's, it's not meant to be like,One track thing, it's meant to
(11:26):
be adaptable and, and if I turnleft my foot, my left foot does
something different to my rightfoot.
And if I go uphill and downhilland you know, like our foot
changes with every step.
and, and if we're trying to makeit the same with every step to
optimize it, it just doesn'tmake any sense.
And so, um, yeah, but I was thatpodiatrist, I was saying exactly
what we'd been taught.
So I think the answer to that isto your Instagram follow it.
(11:49):
Is that it's what we're taught,unless you question what you're
taught, which is hard to do,like is you spend all this
money, you get a degree.
It's, it's like ingrained uponyou.
Natalie (11:58):
right.
Andy (11:58):
only if you have personal experience and, and nearly all
the podiatrists that are thisway aligned, have some personal
experience of, you know, havingto redefine what their own foot
function is and then findingthis way of treating.
Yeah.
But there are some mainstreamones that are really coming
around, at least in the wide toebox.
(12:19):
And I, and when it comes to a.
the one negotiable that I won'tnegotiate on.
It must have a wide toe box.
And so, um, some podiatriststhat are mainstream are seeing
the benefit.
They even call it an anatomicaltoe box, which I think is quite
funny because that means all theother toe boxes aren't
anatomical and
Natalie (12:39):
right.
Andy (12:39):
label this small subset of shoes as anatomical and the rest
as like normal.
You know, that doesn't make anysense to me.
Yeah.
Natalie (12:47):
Right, right.
It's, it's funny, I think likeonce I switch, I've been in
minimal shoes for about five orsix years now at least.
Um, and like I just look atconventional shoes.
I'm like, that isn't even cuteanymore.
Like, it doesn't, you know, itdoesn't even look appealing
because I know the damage thatit does and it's so apparent,
(13:08):
which is, yeah, just wild,
Andy (13:10):
in a little cocoon of clients and family and everyone
wearing minimal shoes.
So if I go down to the localshopping center or um, somewhere
where there is not thatenvironment, I'm kind of freaked
out by all the squish.
Natalie (13:23):
Yeah,
Andy (13:25):
But then I had to catch myself, cause I bought a pair.
I, I got sent a pair ofgroundings and they've got like
a regular fit and a wide fit.
And I think they sent me theregular fit.
And I was like, wow, they lookso good.
Oh, I love these, I love them,they look so good.
And I wore them just for themovie, so I was hardly even
standing up.
Um, and my big toes both gotsore just from having the, for
like three hours.
Natalie (13:44):
Hmm.
Andy (13:45):
and then I was like, wow, I thought they looked so good,
because they look more like a, atraditional shoe, you know?
And this is like me who'spreaching all this stuff, and
then I'm still falling into thattrap of thinking, oh, that looks
better.
Do you know what I mean?
So you have to be anyway.
Yeah,
Natalie (14:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like a paradigm shift, Ithink
Andy (14:03):
right.
Yeah.
Natalie (14:05):
Um, so you talked about the, the different ways that the
feet have to move, like theiroptimal movement.
Can you kind of run us throughlike what is an ideal gate
pattern and how the foot landsand interacts with the ground
when you're walking and thenalso when you're
Andy (14:20):
for sure.
So, um, in walking we've gotthis perfectly rounded heel.
It's designed for taking theweight of, of landing.
And so there's this sometheories of people, um, that say
that we should be, um, midfootstriking when we're, um, when
we're landing, when we'rewalking.
But ideally we should, we've gotthis massive fatty pad, like
I've dissected a fatty pad.
(14:40):
And it's like a fiber thing.
It's designed for taking loadand we've got this perfectly
round circuit surface.
So when we land, I think shouldland on the heel.
Um, and then if you follow wherethe thick bones of the foot are,
so they're here, here, and here.
Our weight should flow from theheel.
Up through there, across to thebig toe and then out through the
big toe.
(15:00):
And so that's, um, and thathappens when we pronate.
So pronation is a very goodthing.
Like we're designed to pronate.
This is our foot being unlockedand flexible, accommodating to
any surface.
Um, and then when we load up a,the big toe and ideally a
straight big toe.
it triggers all the muscles.
There's four layers of muscleshere.
They do this big contraction.
(15:22):
They squeeze and lock the foottogether so that as we push off
through our big toe, our footare rigid lever.
So we go from this mobileadapter to a rigid lever.
And so, um, that's how we'remeant to walk gen, like for the
purpose of this podcast, that avery simplified version when it
comes to running.
Ideally, like I, I don't even eeven in walking, I don't really
(15:42):
talk about foot strike or wherewe're meant to strike too much.
Our foot strike is a product ofthe way the rest of our body is
moving, and also this is inrunning and walking and also the
terrain.
So I went up, um, recently, theWorld Cross-Country
Championship.
So this is a elite, the best inthe world.
We're running here in Australia.
I drove like eight hours towatch them and there was a steep
(16:03):
downhill.
And they're all in runningspikes, which are very minimal
shoes, just about, except forthe week of the tow box.
So they're running in runningspikes, and to watch them go
downhill, they're running like,like two minutes, 30 a kilo, a
kilometer, or maybe, what'sthat?
Uh, almost four minute milepace.
So they're running very fast.
Natalie (16:21):
Yeah.
Andy (16:21):
they were going down the steep hill landing on their
heels.
And like there's, people say,oh, should never run on your
heels when you're running, um,land on your heels.
But this is a product of theirenvironment.
And then when they went uphill,they were up on their toes when
they were on the flat andrunning at an even pace.
Maybe some of them were sort ofheel striking and some were
midfoot striking, and somewherelike it depends on their
(16:42):
morphology, the way their body'sbuilt.
but probably at that levelthey're all landing with their
foot close to under their body.
So their posture is in a reallygood position.
And so we're more worried aboutwhen we're running an overs
strike, a foot that goes out infront of us a long way because
that's more likely to lead to aheavy heel strike and a lot of
breaking force up the rest ofthe leg.
So, um, I try not to think toomuch or definitely don't cue how
(17:06):
we should run on our foot, butwe'd be queuing how the rest of
the body should land and ideallythe foot lands close to under
us.
Cause then it.
Creating a spring as opposed toa break out in front of us.
And I guess it's similar towalking, um, because when we
walk uphill, we're gonna meetmore likely on the toes
downhill, more likely on a hill.
So it really is, um, quitesimilar to walking and the
(17:29):
further we put our leg out infront of us.
The more breaking force there iscompared to having good hip
extension.
So pushing our hip back behindus and that gets our leg pushing
from behind that pushes usforward more efficiently.
And I guess, um, this wheresitting a lot comes in when we
sit a lot, we get tight in thehip flexes and we lose that hip
extension.
And so we're more likely to bepushing our foot out in front of
(17:51):
us acting as a break.
So like, it's not just the foot,it's more about the rest of the
body.
Natalie (17:57):
Hmm.
I like that holistic approach.
So sit less is what
Andy (18:01):
Uh, yeah.
Sit less or sit in differentpositions that make you, um,
move your hips into differentplaces.
Yeah, yeah,
Natalie (18:10):
and then so if somebody is like, oh, I al always have
tight hip flexors and I can'tseem to get my glutes to engage,
what would
Andy (18:18):
I would, I would tell'em to, let's have a look at your
environment, and most likelythey're gonna be either driving
a lot, sitting in one position,a lot.
So I've got a, like a bit of anin here in Melbourne with, um,
some homeschooling familiesbecause they're more likely to
be on board with this type offootwear type of idea.
But what I'm noticing is thatI'm seeing kids like, especially
boys, nine to 14 years of ageand they're a bit obsessed by
(18:39):
gaming.
Um, in fact, I had a family comein recently.
Who are permissive parenters,which means they just let the
child do what they want.
And the boys have decidedthey're gonna be gamers.
And so they're gaming like for10 hours a day, and one has got
abducted hips.
So his feet are flared out likethis because he's just stuck in
a sitting position all the time.
And the other one, whenever hetries to exercise, he has
(19:00):
ankles.
So it's not my job to controltheir gaming, but it's my job to
educate that child, not theparents as much as to what a
body at that age should bedoing.
And it's like six to eight hoursof movement a day rather than
sitting.
and um, and the parentsunknowingly.
Provided them, these boys witha, this is just a, a snapshot
of, um, that, in a way to answeryour question with an ergonomic
(19:22):
desk for gaming.
So this is a desk that meansthey don't need to move at all.
You know, they can becomfortably sitting there in one
position for te probably sixhours, you know, until they get
hungry and get up and move orwhatever.
So they've actually designed aposition so.
The screen is perfect, thateverything's in perfect.
Like they've even got their feetat rest.
(19:42):
And so I'm like, I'm all foryour game.
Go for it.
Game yourself, but let's do itfrom the floor, because then
you'll move, um, every threeminutes because it's
uncomfortable, and then yourhips will start adjusting and
doing all these different thingsthat they're meant to do, rather
than being stuck in the sameposition.
So to answer your question, ifsomeone said they had tight hick
flexes and couldn't engage theirglutes, I would say, let's look
at your envi, your dailyenvironment.
(20:03):
That's probably where theanswer's gonna be.
Natalie (20:06):
Hmm.
Yeah, I like that answer.
Yes, I would absolutely agree.
I'm always telling people to getdown on the ground, take your
shoes off, move around.
Cuz it's, it's really the sum ofwhat we're doing all day rather
than the.
Half hour or hour in the gym.
Right.
Andy (20:23):
exactly.
Yeah.
Natalie (20:25):
Um, okay.
Speaking of kids, I had a couplequestions on kids, um, feet and
growing and so like, what wouldyou say if you were to have a
baby today and you wanna setthem up for the best success for
their feet strength, their footstrength, their hip strength,
everything, how would you start,how would you go about that?
(20:45):
What would you do and what wouldyou not
Andy (20:47):
with a newborn, um, like obvious, I'm, I like the closer
they get to and from whenthey're standing, I have more
realm.
So that first, um, 10 to 14months is a bit negotiable for
me, but I do understand that,um, tummy time and that strength
of, um, of using their body.
And being on the floor, even atthat age, is so important as
(21:07):
opposed to being in some cocoonthat is just holding them in the
same position.
Like it just gets their wholebody and those slings and those
reflexes moving.
Um, and so, uh, that's tillthen, but once they start
walking, and we're lucky here inAustralia.
We get sent to a maternal childhealthcare nurse, which is
someone you visit every month tostart with, and then every two
(21:29):
months and every three monthsuntil the child is four.
And so when the child startsYeah.
Which is, it's a great service.
It's a community service.
And when the child startswalking, um, the message that
the pediatricians, thesematernal child healthcare
nurses, um, everyone gives isthat the shoe should, that, that
if you're going to put a shoe ona child, it should be a wide.
Flat and flexible shoe.
(21:50):
A shoe that just mimics thembeing barefoot because this is
best for increasing ception.
That's our ability to know wherewe are in space.
Um, our muscular strength andbones within the foot and the
rest of the body, our balance,all these types of things are
benefited from wearing as littleshoe as possible when someone
(22:11):
starts.
So that's what I woulddefinitely advocate.
I would not advocate anyexercises or any, like making a
child do anything.
And if your child is latewalking, but crawling really
well, that's probably a goodthing.
You know, like, it's like wereally want to encourage
children to develop at theirnatural rate rather than pushing
them to do stuff.
You know, like I see parentsthat are lifting their kid up
(22:33):
and holding them, getting themto stand early, and then they're
worried that their feet are allover the place.
It's.
they're just not ready to dothat.
They'll do that when they'reready, you know?
Um, just if you give them theopportunity and that play, you
know.
So, um, definitely not exercisesis, I don't advocate for any
exercises for that, um, age.
And then, um, so that, that'sfootwear and movement.
(22:53):
And then when, what, whathappens here in Australia, and I
I say it's similar, there isthey go off to kindergarten or,
um, play school.
Um, you know, playgroup orwhatever, and kids get put into
the, their little Nikes, theirlittle asic added as the trendy
shoes.
And this is immediately puttinga heel on the shoe.
It's putting a, a squishy toe.
It's putting a big cushion,which is like, um, uh, putting
(23:17):
sunglasses instead of puttingsunglasses on to protect from
the suns, like putting ablindfold on or expecting your
child to learn how to speak ifyou put earmuffs on them the
whole time you are, you are justbasically doing a big noise
canceler on the soul of the.
And, and, and so then the bodyis not getting this react, this
ability, ability to react to itsenvironment.
(23:38):
And that happens here, I knowfrom about three or four or even
younger.
And then we wonder why we havefoot problems for the rest of
our life.
You know, when you are basicallytaking and other musculoskeletal
problems, like it can't be goodfor a developing need to be in a
heel healed shoe that tips thewhole body forward and you have
to push your knees back.
Um, so that's my take on kids.
(23:58):
Like it's the.
Easiest time to put them in thecorrect footwear because that's,
they're not used to anythingelse.
In fact, they hate, they hatehaving any cushioning on there
cause they, they wanna feel theground intuitively.
Um, and then like my kids werelucky, they got into something
called Tiptoe Joey, which is a,a brand from here in Australia
and Brazil.
um, because I knew that as apodiatrist.
(24:19):
But then once I saw their feetrolling in, um, at four and
five, I put them in orthoticsand stiff shoes.
I'd send my wife to the shopsand say, make sure the shoe is
stiffer here and only Ben'shere.
That's all I knew.
But when they were, they're now13 and 15.
So when they were eight, and 10,I just dumped their, I used to
make the orthotics for them.
I just like you're outta them.
(24:39):
We had a holiday where they werebarefoot all the time.
Their feet still don't lookideal, but the way they look
doesn't matter.
Like there's no research to saythat a foot that tips in or has
a flatter arch than the nextfoot is gonna be any worse off
than the foot that looks normalcause there's no such thing as
normal.
there's no research to say thatputting that orical, that stiff
(25:00):
shoe is gonna ha prevent themfrom having issues down the
track or in any way, shape, orform.
So I just like did this bigturnaround and at age in 10, my
kids just got used to minimalshoes immediately.
And most kids would like, theydon't need to be transitioned.
They just go like that.
So if your listeners are going,oh, my kid's been in a heeled,
cushioned, stiff shoe for four.
(25:22):
It doesn't matter.
They'll be, they'll, yes.
It's such an early phase.
It's, I think once you are 2025,you might find it harder to
transition because you've beenin it for 15 to 20 years.
But um, yeah, that's
Natalie (25:35):
Okay.
Andy (25:35):
problem.
While they're still growing,they're easy to adapt.
Yeah.
Natalie (25:39):
That's good news.
That's awesome.
I'm amazed that the nurses andthe, the pediatricians are
encouraging the minimal footwear
Andy (25:47):
Yeah.
Until they're three or four.
And then, um, they change thetune.
They need support.
Natalie (25:54):
Hmm.
Hmm.
Here it's, it's like put them inshoes as as soon as you want to
Andy (25:59):
away.
Natalie (26:00):
Yeah.
There's, there's not likeinstruction on to, you know, to
keep them in minimal footwear,which is, which is sad, but
hopefully we're changing thatUm, I did have a question about
socks.
Specifically.
Does sock wearing limit movementwith adults and especially
babies and
Andy (26:21):
think for babies, it definitely has their bone.
They don't have bones in theirfeet, they're just cartilage.
So if you're putting a tightsock on, this is not helpful for
the way their foot move.
So if you're gonna put a sockon, which is reasonable,
especially where you live.
Um, You wanna stretch the sockout first and make sure it's got
some root to play.
You don't want a tight sock.
I personally wear to socks,which is the um, and once you
(26:41):
start wearing to socks, it'svery hard to go back cause
everything feels constrictive towear spaces under your normal
socks.
even just a few times justaround home and then your normal
socks get a bit stretched andthen there's more space.
Um, I think socks do, like weare resilient bodies where our
bodies are resilient.
They can do a lot and put upwith a lot, but I still don't
(27:02):
think any clothing shouldrestrict our movement.
Like if I have to wear a shirt,that means I can't put my hand
above my head.
Um, I feel restricted.
If I have to wear that all thetime, my shoulder would end up
being restricted.
So I can still do it, but I'drather wear clothing.
Socks included that let my feetand body just move the way it's
meant to.
Natalie (27:23):
Amen to that
Andy (27:24):
right.
Natalie (27:26):
Yeah, I think about all of the, I mean, I'm speaking for
women specifically, but we tendto get the tighter shoes, right?
The more narrower shoes, themore restrictive clothing in
general, whether it's dressesor, um, workout gear, right?
Like all of the, the tight tanktops.
Leggings.
(27:46):
And I just think like my braingoes to like, what is that doing
to the pressure in your abdomenand your pelvic floor and what
is that doing to your feet?
And so yeah, I'm all forfreedom.
Freedom of movement and clothes.
Andy (27:58):
I used to go to work in a shirt and pants and a heeled
stiff shoe, and now I'm, I'mlike, if I just wear shorts and
a t-shirt the whole time, ifpeople don't think I'm
professional, I think I'd makeup for it by being professional
in other ways, you know?
So it's fine.
Yeah.
Natalie (28:12):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Um, okay.
Something you said.
Um, Gave me another question.
So there, there was a questionabout, um, maybe a kid who's
having trouble walking, so theyshould be walk, should be quote
unquote, should be walking.
Um, and the general, um, adviceis to put them in more solid
(28:33):
shoes that have a toe lift atthe front to help them kind of
learn to walk Um, what would yourecommend in
Andy (28:41):
Well, like it's, it depends on their age really.
Like if they're, if they shouldbe walking by 18 months of age,
it's probably right.
They sh they probably should bewalking by then.
And I think you to look, to lookat it locally by changing their
shoe is probably missing what'sactually going on.
There could be so many otherdifferent things going on.
And so you gotta get to the, thecore of that.
Um, I had a client who had astroke when she was about 18
(29:04):
months old.
Natalie (29:06):
Oh wow.
Andy (29:07):
And so, um, she's had to relearn to walk.
This is a, so this is a reallygood example.
Um, it's probably the best timein your life to have a stroke
just about, because yourneurological system is still
quite underdeveloped and you'vestill got so much growth stuff
going on that you're gonna catchup pretty quickly.
And, um, and so the physicaltherapists and the occupational
therapists were all aboutputting her own brace.
(29:29):
and, and stiff shoes.
Cause she had a bit of a footdrop, like her foot wasn't.
And um, and mom was like, oh, Idon't think this really, this
doesn't ring true for me.
So she sought me out, you know,and, um, We, we got her doing,
not foot exercise, but beingbarefoot.
She lives near the beach, sojust like playing barefoot,
being in barefoot shoes and, andwhat we see now, cuz she'll
(29:52):
always probably have this damageto some extent.
What we see mostly now is oversummer when she can be really
barefoot a lot and really, andmoving her whole body a lot.
Her movement is so much betterthan over winter when she's in
more of a closed in environmentand not moving.
And so we're seeing, and maybeas she a gets older, it will
flatten out a bit because she'llbe doing activities during the
(30:13):
winter a bit more and a bit moreresilient.
But, um, that was a greatexample of if you're gonna get
something stronger, we, weshould expose it to something
that makes it stronger ratherthan something that stops it.
And so if we put a brace aroundsomething just cause it's not
moving and expect it still tomove better, we're just, I think
we're gonna become reliant uponthat brace.
Natalie (30:35):
Mm-hmm.
Andy (30:36):
is, um, a six-year-old with high, a high diagnosed
hypermobility disorder, butunusually has really high arch
feet and came to me after beingin the public system.
with Children's, children'sHospital, um, with orthotics.
And the mom had been doingreally well with exercise for
her, um, sim for her samehypermobility disorder.
Um, and, and said, oh, you know,my daughter's in orthotics.
(30:59):
Do I still, does she, should sheneed to be like, is if she's, if
she's like me, shouldn't she bebenefiting from exercise?
So we took her orthos out, puther at a minimum, a minimal
shoe, and then over.
She did far less exercise, soshe wasn't doing her gymnastics,
wasn't doing her dancing, wasn'tat school.
Just more relaxed.
And we noticed one of her feetreally changing the way I moved
compared to the other almost.
(31:19):
And then when I test how strongshe could get out of.
That pro pronated position whenpushing off, she was really
struggling.
And that's like the heartmobility disorder really having
an effect on this one foot.
So we've gone back to using anorthotic in a minimal shoe, not
an orthotic that's super stiff,just something that kind of
reminds the muscles in the area.
Let's do a job here.
(31:39):
It's almost like the way I Iexplain it is, you know, you see
the tennis players, the elitetennis players, or even just the
people down the road, um, withtape on their arms.
It's not changing the way.
there are moves, but it mightbring awareness to the muscles
in the area to change it.
And so, so we're using anorthotic for six months and
we're gonna reassess and see howour foot's going.
(32:00):
And so it's not a life sentence.
So even if they had to go intothose shoes and got them up
walking and gave themconfidence, it doesn't mean they
should be in that shoe forever.
Like let's just use these toolsif they're helpful to get
someone over a little landmark,but be doing the rehab in the
back.
Natalie (32:15):
makes total sense So much
Andy (32:18):
Iry is generally said, here's a methodic and you need
it for life cause you've gotsomething wrong with you.
And I don't really think there'smany people at all that's got
something, anything wrong withthem.
They just have a unique set ofsymptoms or way to move and we
just have to embrace it.
And maybe there's a few littlespots that need a bit of work
and we can do that with exercisegenerally.
Natalie (32:38):
Yeah, no, I agree fully.
I did have a question fromsomeone who has a diagnosed
hypermobility disorder, um,which is interesting as an
adult.
Um, and they were wonderingwhat, so they've been in minimal
shoes for several years now.
Um, have.
Been active, have been reallyfocusing on nutrition and all of
(32:59):
that, um, to get to the placethat they want to be, but
they're still having some painwith walking.
Um, they didn't specify likewhat specifically, but blisters
on the feet and pain.
Um, so is there anything morethey could be doing potentially
maybe like a softer orthotic or
Andy (33:16):
yeah, for sure.
Like there's, it doesn't have tobe all or nothing.
And I think this is what Imentioned before, like I was
probably gung ho like everyoneneeds to be in as minimal as
possible.
But um, as long as you'reembrace, like if there's a
spectrum of natural footfunction, And, um, being in, uh,
super rigid orthotic in a hawkershoe is, is like one end of the
(33:38):
spectrum, just next door to amoon boot basically.
Um, and the other end of the islike barefoot all the time.
Just finding where someone's atand I try and just move them in
this direction.
So for that person, maybethey've gone a bit far in that
direction, you know, too fardown the, um, minimalist too
quickly because we know withthose hypermobility conditions
(34:00):
that they're very slow tochange.
But exercise is still the key.
It's a hundred percent still thekey.
And so we don't wanna throw thebaby out with the bathroom and
say, these shoes are terrible.
We just need to go, okay, wemight have had a bit too much of
this.
Let's just, let's just regulatethe dose and, and meet it, meet
it with some exercise and meetit with some habitual change
(34:20):
and, you know, make sure likewe're looking at all those
different fronts rather thanit's just about being sensible.
It doesn't have to be all ornothing.
Yeah.
And that person may never getto, um, you know, a 5K barefoot
walk on the beach.
Um, but.
you know, so, and, and that'sokay.
As long as they're okay with it.
If they wanna get there, theycan.
I think if people are driven,like people come and say to me,
(34:41):
I wanna run a marathon barefoot.
I'm like, okay, if that's whatyou wanna do, these are the
hurdles we have to cross.
And like some people will do iteasily.
Other people have got morehurdles to cross.
It just depends on what youwant.
Yeah.
Natalie (34:54):
No, that's a really good reminder.
It doesn't have to be all ornothing.
I think a lot of times in healthwe assume that if I'm gonna do
this, I'm gonna do it all theway.
I'm
Andy (35:03):
Health and social media.
Health and social media isdefinitely that way.
Inclined.
Like the, the things that ratewell are the big.
Um, red Cross and the big greentick.
And if you're doing this, you'rewrong.
And if you're doing this, you'reright.
And, um, that's not, um, dealingwith the human in front of you.
And I think the people that dothat Red Cross green tick are
more than likely not seeinghumans in pain in front of them.
(35:25):
Because when you've got a humanin pain in front of you, the
chips are on the table and youhave to come up with something
that helps them.
And, and that's not always gonnafollow those, um, green ticks
and red crosses.
Natalie (35:36):
Yeah.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Okay.
I have to go back to kids forone more question.
Um, somebody asked specificallyfor shoes that are flexible but
solid enough for cold weathercuz we get pretty.
Pretty chilly up here,
Andy (35:50):
it's a really big, um, question.
And I, coming from Melbourne,Australia, I'm probably not best
place to answer that becauselike our coldest would be zero
degree morning, you know?
Um, but still then I still wanta nice boot on my foot when I'm
walking the dog.
Natalie (36:06):
right?
Right.
Yeah.
No, I mean that's pretty cold.
zero is cold.
Andy (36:09):
So, um, then, um, you should look those people,
whoever listening to this and,and wanna answer that question,
like, VI Bare would have somegreat brands, BAA Shoes, baka
have some great shoes, and Zero,they're the big three shoe
producers.
And then there's all theselittle nuanced ones.
But someone like Anya's Reviews,it's a N Y A S, although I said
that a's reviews on a socialmedia post the other day.
(36:32):
Um, asking, answering the samequestion and someone.
She's not from the cold like Iam.
She doesn't know what she'stalking about.
I'm like, well, why are youasking me then?
I'm from Melbourne.
You know, I didn't say that.
I never answer negativecomments.
Um, anyway, so I think she'sprobably got some really good
resources there.
Natalie (36:50):
She's amazing.
I actually had her on thepodcast
Andy (36:53):
very good.
Yeah.
Natalie (36:54):
Yes, yes.
She's
Andy (36:56):
So, um, she's got some great resources and there are a
few others that have some reallygood resources.
I think one called BarefootUniverse.
They are in, they're in Europe,so that should be cold enough
for people and some parts ofEurope.
And then there's also theBarefoot Shoe Review and the
Barefoot Shoe Guide.
These are like the big four, youknow?
Yeah.
They've all got their, theirlists and you just have to go in
(37:16):
there and find out what you wantand, uh, spits out the answers.
There are 140 barefoot shoebrands, so it's very hard to
isolate.
Natalie (37:24):
Yes.
Yeah.
And everybody has their ownpreferences too, I feel like.
And.
Yeah.
Okay, cool.
Thank you.
Um, a couple questions aboutbunions.
I got a few actually.
So if you could talk about whatbunions are, what causes them,
and then the main question islike, how do we fix them?
(37:45):
Or do I need surgery?
When is surgery necessary?
That kind of Yeah.
Andy (37:51):
I'll just get another prop.
Okay.
Natalie (37:53):
Perfect.
I love props,
Andy (37:57):
So, um, I'll go through this.
This is how I explain it in theclinic.
I have a, um, a zoom call afterthis with someone in London.
So she's, she'll be hearingthis, um, exact same thing that
I'm telling you now cause she'sgot a funny, um, so, um, these
two bones, the first and thesecond metatarsal are often, um,
pretty parallel.
Someone with bunions, thegenetic, there's two genetic
(38:19):
factors that I like to reallybring out to point.
Um, uh, that's a, a wider toebase.
Okay?
So if we took an x-ray ofsomeone with a bunion and nearly
always wider here, okay?
That angle,
Natalie (38:31):
Hmm.
Andy (38:32):
that's genetic factor one, big genetic factor one, genetic
factor two is mobility.
So we've seen more women, um,With bunions than men for two
reasons.
They're more likely to wearsquishy shoes, like you said,
but also they're generally moreflexible.
And so a big stiff toe on a, youknow, a big, strong stiff man is
less likely to become a bunioncompared to a woman that's got a
(38:54):
flexible toe.
So the flexibility of thejoints.
and that space are the twogenetic factors, so we cannot
change them.
Generally speaking, if thosepeople never wore a shoe,
they'll just have a nice broadfoot like this.
Okay?
And we know that in unscommunities there is less
buttons.
So people that don't wear shoesdon't get buttons so much.
(39:14):
Then we look at the environment.
So the environmental factors.
So we've got genetic factors andthen environmental factors,
genetic factors, uh, those twothat I mentioned.
Environmental factors are thefootwear.
So when, if this, if this bigtoe is meant to be a hinge like
this, a straight hinge, as soonas we put it in a shoe, this is
the dog ate this one, sorry.
Um, that, that's the inside.
(39:36):
Yeah, there's that hinge.
So there's one side of thehinge, there's the other, and
there's the straight big toe.
So a shoe like this, even yourcommon running shoe or walking
shoe, whatever, they nearly allpush your big toe side.
So when you add.
and this to a shoe, that's whereyou get a bunion.
Okay.
And so, um, we see an a bunion.
We don't see ex, there's a bitof extra bone growing there, but
(39:58):
mostly it's just a joint, kindaalmost dislocating.
So the joint comes out likethis.
And so when they do surgery, um,they cut this bone and
straighten it.
Okay?
And then bring, and they take,maybe they fix up the bone here,
but generally they bring thisalignment back to there.
They may pin it for a while.
There are muscles on the insideand muscles on the outside.
This is the outside of yourbody.
(40:19):
Inside of your body.
Um, this, these ones get weakand loose, and these ones get
tight.
And strong.
So they might release thosemuscles and tighten these ones.
That's what they might do insurgery.
But as soon as we cut into thefoot, it's never the same.
It's like a, it's a huge deal,like cutting into any other part
of our body, but possibly even abigger deal when it comes to the
foot.
So it should always be the lastoption.
(40:41):
and you can, if you can rehab ortry and rehabilitate your foot
before surgery and you still endup having surgery, you're gonna
come out of that surgery in afar better position because of
the rehab you did before.
And most foot surgeons don'tadvocate for any rehabilitation
after it.
You know, they'll just be like,oh, just walking or just stay
off it.
So it's like going in for kneesurgery and not having
(41:02):
rehabilitation as an exercisephysiologist, you would
understand this is just likecraziness.
So, um, nearly every button thatI see.
I think maybe two a year.
I say, look, you're probablygonna need surgery because there
are four stages of bunion.
There's this like stage one,stage two, stage three, stage
four You know, like, so whenit's stage four and there's no,
(41:24):
I can't those muscles toactivate, I'm like, okay, let's
do the rehab with a view toprobably having surgery.
but generally we try and giveyou exercises to strengthen this
and to, and, and mobility workto loosen this off because that
creates balance here.
We go back to the ankle and seewhat's creating more force at
(41:44):
the big toe joint.
So we change, uh, we try andstrengthen on the inside of the
ankle as well.
Sometimes people have some weakstabilizers here, so their big
toes flapping around.
So we work on that and then wego up to the hip and look at,
see how fast that rate of thefoot rolling in is because we
can control that from the hip.
So we're looking like all theway through.
(42:04):
And if you look at, um, a'sreviews, she and I didn't
article together explainingexactly this.
Natalie (42:11):
Oh, nice.
Okay.
Andy (42:12):
Um, and so we're kind of looking locally, um, integrating
into the way the foot moves andthen integrating into the way
the whole body moves.
But all of this is.
A waste of time if you don'tchange the environment.
And so that's why I'm sopassionate about shoes because
if we keep staying in this shoeand don't change this shoe
that's straight here with a bigtoe, we end up doing all the
(42:33):
work and then just undoing it inthis shoe as opposed to just
doing this.
And so my wife has a very goodexample, probably four years
now, she's been in minimalshoes, um, had foot pain her
whole life, never liked toexercise.
I made her orthotics for like 20years and she'd still had foot
pain.
She never complained about it.
It was just like her lot inlife, you know?
Um, then I found about all this,about all this, and then told
(42:57):
her about it all and changed hershoes.
And I give her exercises to do.
I give her toe spaces, I giveher, um, like a mobility work,
footwear.
And she does none of it exceptfor the footwear.
Like not one single exercise.
Never.
Like I put the toe spaces on herfor her.
Oh no, get them off.
Get them off.
Not one.
(43:17):
she will, she wear toe socksnow, but um, only changed her
footwear and we've seen like astage two become a stage one and
be far less painful.
Unlike if she does a lot of herfeet, they'll still get sore.
Um, but far less compared towhat she used to deal with, um,
just because of change offootwear.
Cause we change the environment.
So she's got those geneticfactors.
(43:37):
If I look at her mom and herdad, they've got similar feet.
but then, but when you take awaythat environmental factor, it
makes a huge difference.
Um, and a funny story aboutthat.
She went out with her friendsand they're kind of close
friends, but not that close.
And she probably wanted to looka certain way because she's
gonna, people that she wasn'ttotally comfortable with.
And so she put her old boot on,which was a heel like this and
(43:58):
squishy like this.
And she got from the bedroom,which is one end of the house in
the front door, and then shetook it off.
She's like, oh, I can't do this.
And she put her grand on.
Yeah.
So, um, yeah.
Natalie (44:10):
Aw
Andy (44:10):
there you go.
I think that's a pretty goodsummary of bunion.
Natalie (44:13):
That was amazing.
Yeah.
I do have one question cuz acouple of people asked about
pinky toe bunion.
So bunion on the outside of the
Andy (44:19):
Yeah.
So it's called, it's calledTaylor's Bunion.
It's like this, that bit there,um, this bit here.
It's called a Taylor's bunion.
Cause Taylors used to sit withtheir feet this way to do the
mill, and they'd get thisTaylor's bunion.
And so it's the same effect.
It's, it's not, Debilitating.
Cause we don't need to use thatjoint as much as we need to use
this one.
(44:39):
Um, but generally there's amuscle here so we can strengthen
that one, loosen these ones off,create an environment that
pushes the toe up, makeexercises to try and strengthen
that area.
Yeah.
But mostly the environment.
Natalie (44:53):
Excellent.
I'm amazed at how much canchange with just the shoes
without any rehab.
I think your wife is basicallyan experiment.
You
Andy (45:01):
She's, she's.
Natalie (45:03):
use her as a social experiment.
Andy (45:05):
you know, like all the naysayers will go, oh, that's
only one person.
I'm like, well, that's clinicalevidence.
And clinical evidence has a lotto say.
And generally speaking, um,people think that natural, what
I do is a bit like, um, Likecowboy podiatry.
But if, like, if I look at anyresearch in any other field,
knees, hips, shoulders, backs,it's all about strength and re
(45:27):
strength and conditioning.
That's where all the research isgoing.
Podiatry is just like in thedark ages.
And, um, so I don't have anyproblem practicing the way I do.
If anyone ever said, oh, you arenegligent, I'd be like, well,
here is the body of evidencethat, um, suggests that can be
transferred over to what I do.
It just doesn't.
Um, To pay as well, but I justcharge a lot for my time and
(45:50):
have a lot of clients because Ihave a, a, a broad spread of
word of mouth because peoplelike what I do.
So it does pay as well in theend
Natalie (45:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Okay.
Um, that was amazing.
Bunion summary.
I learned, I learned somethings.
so can you tell us some of yourfavorite resources?
So if somebody wants to learnmore, and you can, you could
pump your own Instagram accountand all of that as well, but
what do you like to refer to forpeople
Andy (46:20):
I, I really like, um, so I think social media's been a
wonderful advocate for, um, thismovement.
Um, but you kind of have to wadethrough some of that black and
white stuff and realize thatthere's a bit of gray in there.
My account, uh, I would say ispretty, uh, up to date and
reasonable and.
Um, I, I really do cover myself.
(46:41):
I never keep it, um, black andwhite now, um, that's just my
name and podiatrist.
Um, a's account is really goodin terms of, um, footwear, like
highly recommend that GaitHappens is another one that's,
um, I think I mentioned before.
Um, that's, that's like thathigher level, like really, um,
more intense, um, scrutiny onthe way someone moves.
(47:03):
But that's super interestingfor.
Um, and then you can also lookinto like vivo, barefoot, and
correct toes.
They've got really goodresources for this type of
thing.
Yeah.
Um, I was gonna say somethingelse as well.
Oh, there's something called theHealthy Feet Alliance, and
that's like a group of us thathave come together.
I think, I don't know whostarted that, but, um, they've
(47:24):
got an approved practitioner'slist.
And so like I get asked foronline consultations all the
time, and they're okay to do,but it's better to do them in
person.
So you can go to that and seetheir approved practitioner list
and there's someone an houraway, you know, if, if they're,
if they're legit, you shouldn'thave to see them over and over
again.
You should see them.
They set you up, they check inwith you.
Like it shouldn't have to bethat, that you're reliant upon
(47:44):
seeing them.
So that's a really goodresource.
Healthy Feet Alliance.
Um, they're doing some reallygood
Natalie (47:49):
new to.
Andy (47:49):
that space.
And the Foot Collective as well.
They've been a big support ofmine.
Um, they're also very black andwhite in their message, so you,
you gotta take that with a grainof salt.
But generally speaking, they,they have good resources and
they've got good online.
online, uh, like so likeexercise, things to do for your
feet.
And the last one I shouldmention is Lilian Home, h o l M.
(48:13):
She's a, um, she's calledhypermobility doctor.
Do you know her?
Anyway, so
Natalie (48:17):
I actually do, yeah.
Andy (48:20):
For, for, because I do deal with a lot of people with,
uh, hyper mobile and even justto give them a sense of then
they're not the only one dealingwith this sensation that's going
on in their body, you know?
Um, and that level of pain andthat constant, um, reminder that
they have that condition goingon.
So she's got a great InstagramPLA page, but also her blog as
(48:40):
well is really good.
I just send people there ratherthan me explaining all that,
that pain, that pain sciencetype of stuff.
Yeah.
Natalie (48:47):
Yeah.
Amazing, and I'll link all ofthose in the show notes so
everybody can find those easily.
Um, okay.
I have two questions that I askevery single guest.
We'll wrap up with those.
So first one is, what's yournumber one piece of advice for
our listeners?
What do you want everyone toknow?
Andy (49:05):
Um, uh, can I give you two things?
Natalie (49:08):
Yes, you can.
Andy (49:09):
foot doesn't, the foot doesn't need support.
Generally speaking, it cansupport itself and to take your
shoes off and not be scared togo barefoot.
Natalie (49:17):
Succinct and beautiful.
I love it, Okay.
Second question is, what is yourfavorite wellness habit that you
incorporate into your own dailylife?
Andy (49:26):
Um, like almost constant movement as in, uh, I hardly
ever sit still, so, and it's notlike I'm.
Being busy or, um, movingvigorously, but I'm moving very
regularly from one position tothe next, and I combine that
with a nap nearly every day.
Natalie (49:46):
Amazing
Andy (49:49):
10
Natalie (49:49):
gonna adopt that.
I love
Andy (49:51):
yeah.
Naps.
10 to 15 minutes of most days.
Yeah.
Natalie (49:57):
and if you are not watching this, Andy has been on
the floor this entire podcastrecording.
He's been moving around doingdifferent shapes with his hips
sitting in different positions.
It's, it's, he's really trulypracticing what he preaches.
So, um, okay.
Can you tell us one last timewhere listeners can find you
online, what you offer, if youdo any online services, and then
(50:20):
Yeah.
Andy (50:21):
um, on Instagram, I'm and Andy Bryant underscore
podiatrist.
Um, and I do do online, but Imostly try and find someone near
you for you.
So you can always just shout outand I'll just lead you to a list
of people that might be nearyou.
Um, And then, but, but somepeople are a bit far away from
that.
So I do do online consultations,which work pretty well to tell
the truth.
I do a movement screen and get afull history, and then we just,
(50:43):
you know, chat like you and Iare now and, um, come up with a,
that type of thing.
Um, I'm, I work in Melbourne,Australia, I.
Work out of a little practicecalled Mount Wave Podiatry and
Melbourne Natural Podiatry.
Um, so it's amazing how manypeople might listen to this or
listen to podcasts and then theyend up being only like five
kilometers away or something andthey're like, oh, that guy's
just around the corner.
So if I didn't say that, I'd bemissing out as well.
(51:04):
So there you go.
Natalie (51:06):
Awesome.
Well, Andy, thank you so, somuch for being here and spending
your time and energy with me.
I super appreciate it and I knowall of our listeners are going
to be very excited for thisepisode.
Andy (51:17):
for having me, Natalie.
Natalie (51:18):
My top takeaway from my conversation with Andy was that
just like anything in health,minimal footwear isn't all or
nothing.
I know I definitely need thatreminder often in my life as I
like to do things only a hundredpercent or not at all.
I really appreciate his.
Practical approach to foothealth, as well as his love of
educating his clients and onlineaudience as well.
(51:41):
So if you don't follow him onInstagram, be sure to remedy
that as soon as you can.
I've linked all of the resourceshe mentioned, as well as his
site and social pages for you tofollow in the show notes for
this episode.
Please remember that what youhear on this podcast is not
medical advice, but remember toalways do your own research and
talk to your healthcare teambefore making any important
(52:02):
decisions about your wellness.
If you found this podcasthelpful, please consider writing
a five star review in yourfavorite podcast app.
Thanks so much for listening.
I'll catch you next time.
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