Show Notes
On today’s podcast, I chat with Dr. Berlin about his work as a bodyworker, advocate for informed choice, and how he helps his clients feel more settled in their nervous systems so they can have the best birth experience and postpartum recovery possible.
Resources he mentioned:
Documentaries he’s produced: all can be found on informedpregnancy.tv and you can get a FREE month with the code TNFREEMONTH when you sign up for a monthly subscription! informedpregnancy.tv
- Heads Up, The Disappearing Art of Vaginal Breech Delivery
- Trial of Labor
Connect with Dr. Berlin:
- Follow @doctorberlin on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doctorberlin/
- Visit Dr. Berlin’s site (and to book if you’re local to LA): https://www.doctorberlin.com/
- Get a month free of Informed Pregnancy+ with the code TNFREEMONTH https://informedpregnancy.com/ip/
If you found this podcast helpful, please consider writing a positive review in your favorite podcast app or on YouTube! Thanks so much for listening. I’ll catch you next time!
Sign up for my weekly newsletter and gain access to my most up-to-date resource list here: https://www.resourcedoula.com/resources
The Resource Doula Podcast Social Channels:
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Resource Doula Podcast Youtube: @resourcedoula
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Natalie (00:00):
On today's podcast, I chat with Dr.
Berlin about his work as a bodyworker and advocate for informed
choice and how he helps hisclients feel more settled in
their nervous systems so theycan have the best birth
experience and postpartumrecovery possible.
Welcome to the ResourceDoulapodcast.
I'm Natalie, your host, and mygoal is to equip you with the
(00:21):
tools and information you needto make informed healthcare
decisions while having some funalong the way.
Through engaging interviews withexperts, personal stories, and
insightful commentary, I'll saveyou the time and effort of
sifting through countlesssources on the internet.
Consider me your personalresource dealer, because if I
don't know the answer, I canconnect you with someone who
(00:43):
probably does.
So whether you're a seasonedhealth guru or just starting
your journey, I hope this showinspires and encourages you
every step of the way.
Dr.
Elliott Berlin is an awardwinning prenatal chiropractor,
childbirth educator, laborsupport body worker, and co
founder of Berlin Wellness Groupin Los Angeles, California.
(01:03):
Dr.
Berlin graduated summa cum laudefrom Life University of
Chiropractic in Atlanta,Georgia, and the Atlanta School
of www.
1 866 325 7000.
For more information visit www.
innovative pre and postnatalwellness care techniques.
Unique chiros massage sessionssoothe and relax tight, painful
(01:25):
muscles and restore motion torestricted joints.
These 30 to 45 minute treatmentseffectively address most
pregnancy aches and pains injust a few visits, and promote
healthy, comfortable, andfunctional pregnancy.
And an ideal environment forlabor and delivery.
Dr.
Berlin's informed pregnancyproject aims to utilize multiple
(01:46):
forms of media, podcasts,YouTube series, documentaries,
and online workshops to compileand deliver unbiased information
about pregnancy and childbirthto empower new and.
Expectant parents to makeinformed choices regarding their
pregnancy and parenting journey.
Dr.
Berlin lives in Los Angeles withhis wife, perinatal
psychologist, Dr.
Alyssa Berlin, and their fourfantastic kids.
(02:20):
Dr.
Berlin, welcome to the resourcedoula podcast.
Thanks so much for being heretoday.
Dr. Berlin (02:25):
my goodness, thank you for having me.
Natalie (02:28):
Of course, of course I've been excited to talk to you
for a long time now And I justwanted to jump in with really
asking what led you to Decide topursue a career in women's
health and pregnancy andchiropractic work
Dr. Berlin (02:43):
Wow, that's a little question.
Okay, so, Uh, you ever play avideo game and you're not sure
where to go and then a big arrowcomes up and says go this way?
That's kind of how my careerunfolded.
I I was a kid and I walked intoa building in New York City
where I grew up And they wereteaching a CPR class And I was,
(03:05):
I was like, mortified.
I was like, oh my god, what arethey doing to that poor woman
with no arms and no legs?
And, and then they explain thatyou could be somebody's heart
and lungs and save their lifeuntil they can get advanced
medical care.
And I was like, that is mindboggling.
From that moment forward, Ididn't even know what it was
called, but I knew I wanted todo health care.
(03:26):
I wanted to like spend my timehere on this planet, uh, using
my body to help other people,uh, feel better or survive or
live a better life.
Uh, and so I just pursued it.
I, before.
Before I was 10 years old, I wastaking American Red Cross
classes and, uh, first aid andthen responding to emergencies
(03:47):
and CPR.
And eventually, as a teenager, Iwas teaching for the American
Red Cross.
And then, uh, when I was 17, Idid emergency medical technician
training.
When I was 18, I was working inambulances and emergency rooms.
When I was 19, I was pre med.
And then my father suddenlydied, um, partially from a
medical mix up.
(04:08):
And, um...
It was like a big shock.
I still finished all therequirements for medical school
for the pre med major, but Ialso, uh, kind of took speech
and drama.
I don't know why.
I just was like, I'd better havesomething in my pocket.
And, uh, when I, when Igraduated, I just, I needed
(04:30):
time.
I didn't, I didn't feel likedrugs and surgery was where I
wanted to be.
Um, And so, took off a year,made pizza for a pizza store,
and at night time explored awhole bunch of different
holistic or complementarymodalities of healthcare.
And I fell in love withchiropractic and massage
(04:51):
together.
The...
The fact that the nervous systemcontrols and coordinates, you
know, every cell and organ inthe body and that sometimes the
nervous system has impairmentsthat you could sort of unlock
and allow it to doctor itselfbetter, uh, was very powerful to
me.
But the, the root of unlockingthings is in the musculoskeletal
(05:15):
system.
It didn't make sense to me tojust do muscular like massage or
skeletal, like chiropractic, butto kind of go to school for both
separately and smush themtogether like the peanut butter
and chocolate of holistichealthcare.
And, uh, that's kind of what Idid.
Um, the next arrow, when itsaid, Hey, come over here, go
this way, was, uh, at the end ofgrad school.
(05:38):
So my wife and I got married,uh, pretty young.
We're married, uh, 25 years now,and,
Natalie (05:44):
congratulations, that's amazing.
Dr. Berlin (05:46):
thank you very much.
Uh, very, very, very lucky andblessed.
Um, and, uh, at the end of gradschool, she's a psychologist, a
perinatal psychologist.
And, um, when we finished gradschool, we're just like, Oh,
let's, you know, have a kid.
It's about a good time for us.
Uh, and, uh, so we followed allthe, uh, directions and no baby
(06:07):
came out.
Um, and we kept followingdirections and still no baby.
And, uh, We ended up going downthe slippery slope of assisted
reproductive technology from themedical field and, uh, years,
like three years in that system.
And, uh, at the end of it, theyjust said, we don't think you're
(06:28):
ever going to have a babytogether and we don't know why.
So you should consideralternative pathways to
parenthood.
Um, we were young, we were like25 and 27.
We were broke as could be.
We had spent every dollar onfertility treatments that didn't
work.
It was a rollercoaster ofemotions that kind of taxed our
(06:50):
relationship, our personalhealth, everything.
And so we were just broken,broken.
So we decided not a good time tobecome parents anyway, perhaps,
and so We just said, Hey, let'swork on a relationship and find
that spark again and, you know,fan the flames and, um, earn
(07:11):
some money without spending iton fertility treatment
Natalie (07:14):
Yeah, those are expensive, oh my goodness.
Dr. Berlin (07:17):
yeah, no insurance coverage.
And again, grad students, youknow, no income, so it was very
hard.
And, um, we started to dothings.
We took our nutrition moreseriously.
We started to exercise.
We were living in Nebraska andthey have these like.
Hundreds of miles of groomedbike trail, some of them, you
(07:39):
know, along railroads or lakes,or it was just really, really
beautiful.
And we would just go for hoursbike riding together.
We had no kids.
So on the bright side, there wasnothing keeping us anchored to
the house.
So, um, It just, it, it evolved.
We started to meditate and do alittle Chinese medicine.
(08:01):
And, uh, then we moved to LosAngeles for, uh, my wife's
internship.
And, uh, well, we were inNebraska for an internship.
We moved here for her postdocwas kind of like a fellowship.
And, uh, once we got settleddown, we thought, Hey, let's
maybe explore alternativepathways to parenthood, whatever
(08:21):
that means, but, uh, we nevergot to find out cause we found
out we were pregnant.
Natalie (08:26):
Oh my gosh.
Dr. Berlin (08:27):
And
Natalie (08:28):
such a happy story, oh
Dr. Berlin (08:29):
well, thanks, you know, good things come to people
who wait, I think is, that's howthat became my motto.
And, uh, then every two years wehad another kid, we couldn't
turn it off, so.
We have, uh, four kids now,thank God, and they're healthy,
and they just, when it was theright time, they came.
So.
When we opened our practice inLos Angeles, it was sort of like
(08:52):
a mind body approach for generalhealth and wellness, but also
like a focus on boostingwhatever natural fertility
someone has.
And, um, kind of in the firstyear, a couple of babies came
through that program.
And after that, it justsnowballed.
There were babies everywhere.
(09:12):
It was just raining babies.
So...
You know, we found ourselvesknee deep with patients who
would say, you know, we want tocontinue care.
I want to continue care withyou.
And I didn't know very muchabout pregnancy in general and
certainly in the chiropracticrealm.
When I was in chiropracticschool, they didn't teach very
much about pregnancy, um, bothin chiropractic and massage.
(09:35):
Bulk of the training, which wasshort was essentially what not
to do.
Don't do this.
Don't touch that.
Don't press over here
Natalie (09:44):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (09:45):
And I was like, oh, that's weird.
But what do I do?
you know and I've also learnedthat pregnant people aren't
aren't broken fragile flowers,so there's a lot not only that
you can do but that they needand can benefit from and That
just took time, you know, so Iwould Tell them hey, I'm pretty
(10:07):
sure I can work on you withoutharming you but surely There's
somebody who has more experiencewith pregnancy than me, but they
wanted to stick it out So Ilearned a lot on the job I
consulted a lot with people whohad been doing pregnancy care
before me around the country andI just over time once the volume
(10:27):
kicked in I think I started tosee more pregnant clients than
anybody I know certainly, um,and you just get a tremendous
amount of experience and thatkind of snowballs into other
things like if you have a strongrelationship of, of body work
(10:48):
and you know, I, I still domassage with most of my patients
before an adjustment.
So our visits are at least 25,30 minutes long, if not longer
every time.
And I really get to know.
A lot, you know, about where thestrengths and weaknesses are in
the musculoskeletal system.
Um, but, uh, sometimes massagetherapists, uh, just becomes
(11:11):
therapists.
And, uh, you end up learningalso where the strengths and
weaknesses are in, in their ownmind and, and, uh, spirit.
And you really can sort of...
Help them identify where thosethings are and give them tools
to be able to bolster thestrengths and fill in the
(11:34):
weaknesses and, um, uh, At somepoint that turns into, Hey, can
you come work with me when I'min labor?
Uh, and I'm like, sure.
I think.
And, um, that just, again,another big arrow saying, come
over here and support people inlabor, which I'd never.
(11:56):
Imagined or dreamed of and, uh,after the first couple of births
where I did body work isessentially why I was there, um,
it just felt like if I was goingto keep doing that, I should do,
do the training just to bebetter equipped.
Uh, I remember at one point Iwas working on somebody and the
midwife took a nap and the guywho I thought was her husband
(12:18):
went out to get some smokes andnever came back and, uh, at a
birth
Natalie (12:22):
What?
Oh, no.
Dr. Berlin (12:24):
And so things started to pick up and she
looked back and she said, saysomething meaningful.
And I'm like, I don't know.
I just rub things and crackstuff, you know?
And, uh, that made me realizelike, Ooh, maybe I should get
some better tools if I'm goingto be in this environment.
So my wife and I both did do atraining together.
Natalie (12:41):
that is so cool.
Dr. Berlin (12:43):
I mostly was there for the body work, um, and when
she did birth, she was mostlydoing more specialized care for
people who have struggles withanxiety or OCD, uh, things like
that, um, who could usedifferent perspective in birth
from a doula like, um, supportperson.
(13:05):
That's how we got here.
Natalie (13:06):
Wow.
That's an amazing journey with alot of different twists and
turns.
And yeah, I am fascinated.
Like my brain is going in a lotof different, different
directions.
I have a lot of questions to askyou, but what a unique
positioning you have with all ofyour training, your past
training, and then being able toleverage that in the birth world
(13:27):
where it's so, so needed, likethat is just.
It's incredible.
So, do you, you and your wiferight now have a joint practice
still?
Okay, how does that work?
How, like, walk me through atypical day, maybe, or like,
what someone would experience ifthey're coming to see you.
Dr. Berlin (13:43):
so our, our practice, we have a lot of
practitioners in our practice.
Natalie (13:47):
Okay.
Dr. Berlin (13:48):
we have several chiropractors who I trained in
the technique that I do with thebodywork.
Um, and we have craniopsychotherapists, massage
therapists, acupuncturists, and,uh, and my wife is the
psychologist.
So, um, people sometimes justcome in for one or the other.
Um, Or both, or a series ofthings.
(14:10):
We're all kind of independent,but we also all work like a
team.
So if somebody comes in forsomething and I'm like, you know
what, that's going to respond alot better to acupuncture, then
I'll, I'll suggest that.
And we have it right here sothey can just go get the
acupuncture or vice versa.
Or if we try something three orfour times, I usually expect.
To see a significant change,maybe not a resolution, a
(14:32):
complete resolution, but a, animprovement.
If I'm not seeing improvement, Idon't just keep doing the same
thing for a year.
You know, either switch amodality or do some imaging or
try to figure out what's whatI'm missing here.
Um, and so a lot of times, likeI'll have somebody that, uh,
comes in and, um, you start towork on the physical side of
(14:53):
things and quickly realizethere's.
The physical manifestation isjust where they're holding on to
something much deeper, much moreemotional.
Um, and if, if I sense that,I'll, I'll ask.
Sometimes they're ready to sayyes, and sometimes not.
But if they are, and it seemslike something that they want to
(15:16):
address, or there is time toaddress, a lot of these things
come up around...
Motherhood because there arethings from childhood.
And so it's a heavyresponsibility now to all of a
sudden, you know, be in theopposite role and be the one who
has to care for a child andprotect a child and take care of
a child.
Um, and, uh, I think thattransition sometimes a lot of
(15:39):
these things start to showthemselves the things that we've
swept under the carpet overtime.
now it's like obvious there's abig lump under there.
Natalie (15:48):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (15:49):
You're not fooling anybody.
So, um, that'll happensometimes, and I'll recommend
different modalities.
Some of them that my wife does,like EMDR, or Semantic
Experiencing Trauma Therapies,uh, or sometimes things that she
doesn't do, that we don't do inthe practice, like hypnotherapy,
or other modalities, orsometimes, you know, uh, talk
(16:09):
therapy, or even, uh,psychiatry, you know, depending
on what's going on.
Natalie (16:15):
Amazing.
So, what would you say are maybesome of the more common
manifestations of those issues?
Like if somebody has a lot ofanxiety surrounding becoming a
parent, how does that show up intheir body, in their nervous
system that you notice?
Dr. Berlin (16:31):
midwives sometimes say that a sizable portion of,
uh, of breech positioning is,um, the body not, not quite
ready, not wanting the baby to,to come down.
And, uh, you could sometimesfeel that because, you know,
I'll, I'll ask, you know, isthere unsettled emotion around
(16:53):
becoming a parent, aroundchildbirth?
And they'll say no, and I'll belike, motherhood?
Yes, you know, or relationship,you know, you could sort of, you
don't have to be that deeplyintuitive or even highly trained
as in a psychological world tokind of realize.
(17:14):
Okay, that's, that's probablysomething that you need to
address, um, if you want to, youknow, I, I never push it.
I'm just like, Hey, is, is thiscomponent?
I'll give you an example.
Um, that that's not evenmotherhood or pregnancy related.
I have a patient that I sawduring pregnancy and, um, she,
(17:36):
part of what she was coming infor was this shoulder issue
that, um, had been playing herfor years.
It started with a very dramaticand traumatic car accident, and
when she was just a youngteenager, and she had done years
of going to different doctorsand therapists trying to resolve
(17:57):
that issue with with no luck,and she had done a lot of talk
therapy.
With a therapist, and she haddone a lot of body work with
physical doctors, and not reallymuch improvement.
Um, and I told her that, andthis is true, after you give
birth, you kind of have a smallwindow of opportunity where you
(18:18):
still have those pregnancyhormones that make
Natalie (18:20):
Mm hmm.
Dr. Berlin (18:21):
a little bit more flexible, more moldable, clay,
but no baby inside you.
And we can get access to some ofthe things we can't get access
when there is a baby inside you.
You have a small window ofopportunity to try to make long
term changes.
Um, from chronic things, and,uh, I think we just did one or
two visits, and the, thedownside there is it's very hard
(18:41):
to get out of the house and maketime for yourself
Natalie (18:43):
Right.
Right.
Hmm.
Dr. Berlin (18:44):
a newborn home.
Um, anyway, now two years later,I, I did touch on one thing,
which is...
You know, the scalene musclewhere, uh, the neck beats the
first couple of ribs.
And, uh, it was just, she'slike, nobody has ever pushed in
there.
And that feels like the source.
And so she came back two yearslater, ready to take care of it.
(19:05):
Cause it's really been botheringher more and more now, I guess,
with all the bending, lifting,holding, feeding, changing all
the things you do with kids.
Exacerbate it.
uh, on her second visit back, Iwent to dig in there and they're
just, she just got so emotional.
So many tears started to comeout and I just asked, I'm like,
do you think this is allphysical?
(19:27):
Or do you think you still havesome trauma in there from the
accident?
And then even more, you know,tears came out and she's like,
thank you for bringing this out.
Like I never, I never was ableto find solutions.
And so I just had to.
Learn to live with it, but it'sstill there
Natalie (19:47):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (19:48):
I want to get rid of it So that's something like
that.
I I said, okay.
Well, here's a few modalitiesYou can try and it literally
just happened this morning.
So this is a one from today Isee sometimes people have all
sorts of traumas whether it'sphysical abuse as a kid Or, um,
(20:11):
just recently sexual abuse as ateenager.
Um, and, and they manifestthemselves in a lot of different
ways.
I mean, when we, when I talk topeople who want a more natural
birth experience.
Um, so at some point, if they'relooking for insight input, I'll
(20:34):
talk to them about thedifference between what oxytocin
does to your body and whatadrenaline does to your body.
Natalie (20:42):
hmm.
Mm
Dr. Berlin (20:44):
Um, I was just recently talking to somebody
about how you feel underoxytocin, the love, the bonding,
the orgasm hormone, and how, ifyou bring that out somehow
during labor, then you're.
The messages that go to yourbrain are much happier messages.
Whatever you feel in your bodythat is positive and pleasurable
(21:05):
will be magnified versus ifyou're under adrenaline and the
fear hormone, the fight orflight than anything that, um,
you perceive your brainperceives.
That could be danger.
Like pain is going to bemagnified many times before you
get the message and it'll bescreaming in pain.
And, uh, I gave her an example,which we have on our podcast of
a, uh, woman who had a 11 poundbaby.
(21:30):
Uh, vaginally, uh, unmedicatedand didn't even tear.
Um, and that's because shereally wanted to get herself
into that oxytocin mindset.
And she read books like by AnnaMcGaskin and, and listened to
podcasts and stories.
And, uh, I think she watchedOrcasmic Birth and she.
Set everything up that to getthere, even though she was in a
(21:52):
hospital setting, knowing thatthe hospital would sort of put
her more in the adrenaline sideof things.
Um, she based everything thatshe did, what she wore, what,
who was around her, what thelighting was like, what the
sense in the room were like.
She did everything she neededto, to get to the oxytocin
state.
And then my, my patient said,you know, well, how can I do
(22:13):
that?
How can I, and, and, and shejust, something in that
conversation made it clear, um,that she doesn't ever feel like
she's in an oxytocin state.
Natalie (22:25):
Mm hmm.
Dr. Berlin (22:28):
And, you know, that's, I just said, do you have
some kind of trauma thatprevents that?
And she said, yes.
And since the time I'm 80 and,um, Okay, so then it manifests
itself and it becomes, itbecomes an issue now, uh,
becoming into motherhood.
One of the things she told me isshe never wants to have a girl
(22:52):
as a child.
She doesn't want to have thatresponsibility to protect a
girl.
Um, so.
Uh, those are some of thedifferent ways that when you're
working with the body, I mean,the body is the mind, the people
sometimes mistakenly think thebrain is the mind, um, and while
the brain can store thoughts andmemories and emotions and
(23:13):
feelings, um, so can all theother human tissue.
And so
Natalie (23:18):
so powerful.
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (23:20):
you're holding that muscle.
Sometimes you're holding that inthe organs.
Sometimes you're holding that inyour uterus and your uterus is
keeping the baby up and saying,don't come out.
I'm not ready.
I can't do this.
Natalie (23:30):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (23:31):
And then, uh, you address that somehow, um, and
once they feel more settled andeverything relaxes, then the
baby will come down.
Natalie (23:40):
Yeah.
Hmm.
It's like we were made for that.
Dr. Berlin (23:45):
Yeah, who would have thought?
Natalie (23:46):
Yeah.
So, okay.
That kind of takes me into, Iguess I'm, I'm curious more what
you would say to people who hearthat.
And they're like, great, butwhat can like chiropractic do?
What does it do for me, or whatdoes massage actually, how does
that actually shift things in mynervous system?
Like, maybe some misconceptionsabout chiropractic care during
(24:10):
pregnancy especially, and howyou would respond to that.
Dr. Berlin (24:15):
Yeah.
Well, that's a multi focalquestion.
Natalie (24:18):
I know, I'm sorry.
Dr. Berlin (24:19):
I'll try to get all the pieces of it, um,
Natalie (24:22):
Yep.
Dr. Berlin (24:22):
in a timely fashion.
So, um, I look at chiropractic,I look at myself as WD 40 for
the musculoskeletal system,right?
So where things are stiff,tight, restricted, my job is to
loosen them up and restorenormal tone, get rid of the
extra...
dysfunctional grip, um, and inthe soft tissue, like muscles,
(24:43):
tendons, fascia, we do that withmassage.
We try to elongate the shortenedmuscles and restore normal
length and tone there.
And then in the bones, wherevertwo bones come together, they
form a joint, and that jointshould have motion.
between the two bones.
And if it's restricted, if itgets locked up either partially
or completely, then we adjust itand we restore motion between
the bones around the joint.
When we do it on both sides, wehave a really nice impact on
(25:06):
improvement in themusculoskeletal function.
The other side of that coin isreally duct tape, which is more
like physical therapy, um,personal training, things that
are going to find the weaknessesand instabilities and use
exercise to strengthen up andrestore stability to those
areas.
And then that way we're like,really have a complete
(25:26):
musculoskeletal health andwellness.
Uh, so then when it comes topregnancy, uh, I think that some
things are caused by pregnancyin the musculoskeletal realm and
some things are just highlightedby pregnancy.
Oftentimes we'll see somebodywith an old tailbone injury from
(25:47):
years ago and you fall on theice, ice skating, you fall
snowboarding, you fall off ahorse.
Clown, class clown pulls a chairout from under you and you just
hit the ground.
Uh, it doesn't bother you.
I mean, it's bad for a couple ofweeks, but you're young and
healthy and having a good time.
You just go about life.
And it doesn't bother you againuntil, you know, second
trimester of your firstpregnancy.
(26:09):
And now there's pressure tryingto push back against that
tailbone, but the tailbone hasno mobility in it.
You know, that can show upthere.
Uh, and then of course, does it.
depending on how it's orientedinto the pelvic outlet and how
much mobility it doesn't have,um, when the baby is trying to
come through there and also whatpositions are limited to in
(26:31):
labor and birth.
Um, if the baby's trying to comethrough there, it can cause a
serious slowdown in the birth,um, an obstruction to kind of
the birth, but also end up,because it doesn't want to move,
end up either beingsignificantly bruised or even
fractured.
Uh, but if we know about it,then we can start to loosen up
(26:52):
those tight tendons that lockedinto place to protect it
whenever that original injuryhappened.
We can do trigger points.
We can, um, even try to, if thetailbone is, the anatomy is such
that you can reach itexternally, you can kind of just
get into it and give it a littlebit of mobilization.
Uh, it makes a huge difference.
I've had several people injure atailbone in a pregnancy, uh,
(27:16):
before getting care.
And then coming back, becausethat pain will start to act up
again in the second pregnancyusually.
Um, and when we take care of it,I've never seen a repeat injury.
So, or even if we detect it in afirst pregnancy, I've never seen
an injury once we take care ofit.
So, that's just like one thing.
I mean, sciatica, that comes upduring pregnancy.
(27:39):
Um, It could be from the newsleeping position, all that
pressure on your hips,especially if you're not a side
sleeper,
Natalie (27:46):
Right.
Dr. Berlin (27:47):
um, and rib discomfort, especially if you
don't have the longest torso andyour baby starts to occupy the
full.
Space, you run out of room inthe womb.
Um, positioning things are, uh,affected by your
musculoskeletal, like when thebaby runs out of space and wants
to go head down.
If it's stiff, tight, and rigidthere, then it might be more
(28:09):
inviting to go up under yourribcage with the, with the head.
So, we don't turn babiesmanually, but we do restore
function to the musculoskeletalsystem in a way that creates
more functional space.
And, uh, babies oftentimes takeadvantage of that, once the
space is open.
So, those are some of the waysthat, uh, for comfort, for
(28:29):
function, for birth preparation,um, chiropractic could be
helpful.
Misconceptions, I don't, I thinkthat...
Sometimes you'll ask yourmedical provider, like your
doctor, How can I dochiropractic during pregnancy?
And they're not a big fan ofchiropractic even when you're
not pregnant.
So, um, I think in general, ifyou ask the wrong person the
right question, you'll getgarbage answers.
(28:51):
So, um, if I ask my, my providerof my, my medical doctor about
ashwagandha, um, he'll probablysay gesundheit or something like
that.
Uh, I don't know aboutashwagandha.
So forget about pregnancy.
It's just the wrong person toask that question to.
Natalie (29:07):
Mm
Dr. Berlin (29:07):
Um, And I would say a good number of my patients are
medical doctors.
A good number of my patients areobstetricians and midwives
themselves.
Um, and there, a good number ofour referrals come from doctors
like that.
Like, there's a bunch of doctorsthat get it.
Maybe they're skeptical ornervous the first couple of
(29:28):
times.
After a while they see, Oh, whensomebody comes with that
sciatica and we can get rid ofit in two or three visits
instead of it getting worse andworse, then instead of having to
tell the patient, Hey, there'snothing you can do about that.
I'm so sorry.
It's just a normal part ofpregnancy.
They become a superhero andthey're like, Oh, see this
person.
And they can help alleviatethat, uh, with a little bit of
(29:49):
massage and adjustment, someacupuncture
Natalie (29:53):
Yeah.
And that really makes adifference for future
pregnancies, if not only thelabor and delivery that they
have with that one.
It's incredible.
I love that you brought upexercise, too.
Of course, that's my jam.
That's my thing.
So I really, I really enjoy thecollaborative aspect of care
when you can refer to otherproviders and address the entire
(30:16):
body as a holistic person with,you know, multiple, multiple
modalities.
I think that's, that's great.
Dr. Berlin (30:23):
teamwork.
Natalie (30:24):
Yeah, it's really the future of medicine and health
care, wellness care,essentially.
Dr. Berlin (30:29):
Well, I think it is healthcare.
I think our, our current system.
In the United States, anyway,that we call the health care
system is more aptly, and I'mnot saying this like
sarcastically, but I think it'sreally disease care, um, which
is, if you go to your doctor, atleast things are starting to
(30:50):
improve a little bit, but, youknow, 10 years ago, if you go to
your doctor and you say, Hey,I'm feeling fine, they'll be
like, okay, get out of here.
Um,
Natalie (30:56):
you here?
Dr. Berlin (30:57):
exactly what the absence of symptoms is not
health.
Natalie (31:01):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Berlin (31:02):
Right.
There's, there's a lot that youcan work on to improve and keep
yourself healthy.
So they would only see if youhave symptoms or problems or
disease.
So that system really is set upfor disease care and health care
is the other side of the coinwhere you do things to, uh, you
know, work on and promote yourphysical, mental, and spiritual
(31:24):
health, um, to keep it
Natalie (31:27):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Um, okay.
So what I know about you isbasically we have a similar
mission is, you know, providingpeople with lots of information,
lots of resources so they canmake informed decisions about
their own bodies, about theirfamilies, about their health in
general.
Um, Um, and especially whenthey're going through that
(31:50):
motherhood transition, thatparent had transitioned from not
having any, any children to allof a sudden they're parents.
Um, so you've developed likethis empire essentially of
pregnancy resources, um, calledthe Informed Pregnancy Project.
Can you talk about that more,kind of explain what's included,
what's your goal with that?
Dr. Berlin (32:12):
that you said, it's about, uh, sort of compiling
information.
And.
Delivering it in digestibleformats and presenting multiple
sides, um, of, of options, youknow, choices when you have a
choice to make, trying topresent all the different
(32:34):
choices that should be availableto you.
And some of the pros and cons ofthem, um, and sometimes just
experiences, anecdotalexperiences from people who've
been there and done that.
So it started very organicallyalso, just, uh, when I got into
working with pregnancy, allthese questions would come up
again and again, I wouldn't knowanything about it.
(32:56):
Uh, Hey, can you help me find adoctor who's supportive of VBAC?
And I'm like, Sure, what's VBAC?
You know, and then, uh, I'd belike, oh, why wouldn't you be
able to give birth vaginallyjust because you had a C
section?
And they were like, oh, yeah, alot of the doctors won't do it,
(33:17):
or the hospitals won't do it.
And then I would just doresearch on my own because I was
very curious about, there mustbe a solid reason why we're not
offering this to people.
Natalie (33:28):
hmm.
Dr. Berlin (33:29):
Even just from an economic perspective, I was
like, it's not like Whatinsurance company wants to pay
for a C section when you canjust do a vaginal or even the
four times the hotel, the hotelhospital stay?
Um, why would they want to dothat?
And so, you know, the more I'dresearch all these, all these
questions and come up withanswers, um, I, I would start to
(33:51):
compile them and we started justa, a little magazine actually
that we're printing anddistributing all over the place
with questions and answers andlittle articles, uh, that turned
into a podcast like 10, 12 yearsago.
Um, I didn't know anything aboutpodcasting.
I just knew I, this new mediumwas available and I wanted to
(34:13):
get out there and talk topeople.
So I, uh, I think the firstpodcast I did, the first episode
costs about 1, 500.
Natalie (34:24):
Oh my goodness.
Dr. Berlin (34:26):
Yeah, because I rented a studio, a very fancy
studio in Santa Monica,California, where Pink records
her albums.
So it's like a floating studiothat's soundproof and had all
this high tech equipment andthis engineer.
And, uh, I thought, okay, I'lljust rent it for an hour.
Uh, and then I didn't realizethe, you know, guests don't
(34:46):
always come on time.
And so the clock is ticking andthe conversation got long and,
and then.
You also pay for the studioduring the time that the
engineer is editing yourpodcast, which took a while.
Yeah, it was like 1, 500 for thefirst episode.
I think I got the second episodedown to 1, 000.
And I was like, okay, I could dothis, like, three times a year.
(35:08):
And of course now podcastingbeing what it is, you know, it's
a whole different situation,but, uh, it, it grew just
organically.
Like, uh, my cohost was pregnantwith her first baby at the time
and she was so curious and shewas able to ask questions from.
The perspective that most of theaudience was going to want to
(35:29):
know.
And, uh, it was just a greatchemistry.
And we essentially branched intothree types of episodes.
Um, one is just, um, an experttalking about a topic.
So amniotic fluid or umbilicalcord or.
Uh, Placenta previa or anythinglike that.
Um, and then birth stories.
(35:51):
So that also became, it becamecurious to me to sort of record
people before they have the babyand kind of get into what
they're planning.
And then after they have thebaby and see how things went
down and what they learned fromthe experience that we could
also learn from the experience.
And then over time, because it'sHollywood, we started seeing
(36:11):
celebrity clients and.
You know, uh, they would getbenefit out of listening to the
podcast.
So if I would ask them to joinme, they would feel like paying
it forward and sharing theirexperience.
So those are the basic types ofepisodes that we have.
Um, and then I was reallycompelled by that VBAT question
(36:32):
and also breach was another onewhere we get so many breach
questions and people panickingover breach and, uh, that
compelled me to make twodocumentaries.
Uh, even though I didn't knowanything about making
documentaries, I made one onbreech
Natalie (36:47):
you, just doing it.
Dr. Berlin (36:50):
Haha.
Well, yeah, thanks.
It's hard to watch peoplestruggle with no information and
powerless.
So, uh, one's called, Heads Up!The Disappearing Art of Vaginal
Breach Delivery, and one iscalled Trial of Labor, which is
all about VBAC.
From...
women's perspective.
So it's for women who arepregnant for the second or third
(37:10):
time and previously only hadcesarean birth that they did not
plan for.
And, uh, we shot a lot ofdoctors and experts and one day
it just became clear to us if wecut out all those talking heads,
the story is so much morepowerful, uh, coming from a
woman about her experience andabout this.
(37:31):
Uh, journey because they wereall pregnant while we shot, uh,
this journey to try have a moreempowered birth experience.
And it came out and, and, andthe guy who directed it with me,
his name is Robert Humphries.
He's a, a really very talentedcinematographer, director of
photography, and it just cameout.
(37:51):
The cinematography in there isvery, very well done.
Uh, and then, it was likestriking a match.
We came out with thisdocumentary, and there was so
much noise about it, and peoplewere doing screenings, and
people, all this conversationsonline.
Uh, and then, I don't know, ayear later, it was, I was
getting these messages frompeople saying, Oh, I loved your
(38:13):
movie, Trial of Labor.
I wish I saw it before I had mysecond baby.
And I was like, wait a second.
I made it so that you could seeit before you had your second
baby.
It was like, painful.
Um, and so I reached out toRicky Lake and some other
people, uh, like, how do you getyour movies, how do you keep
(38:34):
them alive and out there and,and ahead of the audience before
they...
They have to make the choices,you know, and, um, I, a lot of
the filmmakers said same issue,you know, came out with a big
bang and then just fizzled outand it's hard for people to find
them and to, to watch them.
They're all scattered indifferent places and got to
become memberships of all theseweird subscription.
(38:58):
Services, uh, you know, and someof them seem shady, like I'm
probably going to have to cancelmy credit card next week.
Um,
Natalie (39:05):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (39:06):
and, uh, that just gave me an idea, like, there
should be one place where allthese things live together,
where everybody can access them,anybody with internet can access
them.
They shouldn't be costprohibitive, it's important
stuff.
And so that gave rise toInformed Pregnancy Plus, which
is, uh, a streaming site.
(39:28):
Um, Adam form pregnancy dot TV.
And, uh, we have a lot of thoseiconic films, orgasmic birth,
the business of being born.
These are my hours, mamaSherpa's breast milk, the Milky
way.
Um, but also a whole bunch of,uh, lesser known films that are,
are pretty important to, uh, ofcourse, my two films around
(39:48):
there.
And then we expanded into alittle series, some of that we
produce like the real midwivesof Los Angeles.
And, uh,
Natalie (39:56):
need to watch that.
I have not watched that yet.
Dr. Berlin (39:59):
I think it's good, uh, My Birth, Baby Book Nook,
where we do book reviews of abunch of the parenting and
pregnancy books, and, um, Now wehave a whole mind and body
section with yoga and meditationand exercise and belly dance and
all these different things forthe mind and body and Workshops,
(40:20):
so my wife has a workshop calledthe afterbirth plan where you
plan for after birth Thesubtitle could be how to still
like your partner after you havea baby together
Natalie (40:29):
It's so
Dr. Berlin (40:30):
and then Sleep on there, nutrition on there, um,
and it's just, you know, it's, Ithink, priced to be affordable.
Just around 7 a month and it'son Apple Android and Roku so you
can access it from pretty muchany device and We're just
(40:50):
constantly adding more stuffthere and the feedback is so
good Like now people are gettinglots of information Before it's
too late, and that just makes meFeel great.
And the last thing is our blog.
We have a great head of content.
Her name is Rose and she's justa great writer and she's a great
way of connecting with people,finding out what their secret
(41:14):
superpowers are, what they knowthat we need to know.
And, uh, putting it into a, ablog article that is also easy
to digest.
So that is the informedpregnancy project.
And one day.
Down the road, I will sleep avery long time.
Natalie (41:30):
Oh, man.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Um, yeah, those, those bigumbrella projects are so
necessary, but also so timeconsuming.
So I'm sure it's a ton of workon the back end, but it's an
amazing resource and that's whatI'm all about.
I mean, obviously my podcast iscalled the resource doula give
people resources.
So I'm, I'm happy to haveanother resource.
(41:53):
To give people.
Um,
Dr. Berlin (41:55):
thank you.
Natalie (41:56):
yeah, yeah, of course.
Um, okay, kind of going off ofthat, I have another question
that informed consent andinformed choice, obviously
informed pregnancy is yourthing.
How does that show up in yourwork?
Even if, if you're going to alabor or you're working on
somebody prior to or after,like, How would you define
(42:20):
informed choice for motherhood,for parenthood?
Um, And maybe like what youwould hope to, I have, I do have
loaded questions.
I'm sorry.
Um, what you hope to see in thefuture for like options, because
education is, is power, right?
Knowing options is, is powerfulfor people.
(42:41):
So does that, if that's not toolong of a question.
Dr. Berlin (42:44):
No, not at all.
Uh, you know, I learned a lotabout informed choice over, over
the past 20 years as apractitioner.
Um, you know, you have all theseideals and, and I, I sometimes
want something for somebody sobadly that they don't want for
(43:05):
themselves.
Natalie (43:06):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (43:07):
And at the end of the day, it's not about what I
want.
It's about what they want.
And, um, it, the nuances that goalong with that, the learning
curve that goes along with that,um, has been huge for me.
You know, I sort of, I sort ofdislike the, the early
(43:29):
practitioner who was me, um, interms of that, because I, I kind
of had an agenda.
And I was like, I'm going tohelp you out.
I'm going to, you're thirsty.
Here's water.
Come, come get the water, youknow?
And, um, it comes from a goodplace, but, um, it's, it's, it's
(43:50):
something that requiredexperience and maturity to
realize, um, that's not informedchoice.
That's.
That's me thinking I know what'sbest and
Natalie (44:00):
Mm hmm.
Dr. Berlin (44:00):
you there.
So,
Natalie (44:02):
I think it's pretty common in a lot of
practitioners, we, when we knowbetter, we do better, right?
So, uh huh,
Dr. Berlin (44:07):
totally, and, but, so, I, I, I come from a place,
even with what happened to mydad, I don't, I don't dislike
medicine, drugs and surgery, I,I appreciate them, um, but I
realize their strengths andtheir, Their strength to do good
and their strength to do harmand so I just didn't want to be
(44:29):
the one in that space practicingdrugs and surgery, but I respect
them and I think they're greatand I think look on the one hand
I think the only thing sadder tome than a cesarean that's pushed
on someone who doesn't need oneand doesn't want one is Someone
who needs one and doesn't haveaccess to one.
(44:52):
So it's an incredible tool You,you sometimes see it overused or
people pushed into it who don'treally want it and, you know,
arguably don't need it.
And I think that oftentimes itcomes from a good place.
I don't think medicine is bad.
I don't think doctors are bad.
(45:12):
I think it comes from a goodplace where they're like, no,
no, if you were my daughter, Iwould do this.
We should do this.
We have to do this.
Um, but that's not really howit's supposed to be.
It's supposed to be like, here'sall the choices and here are the
pros and cons as I know them.
You know, here's data.
I love, I have a doctor who doesa lot of second opinions for
people, and, um, his whole thingis he doesn't make a decision
(45:36):
for you at all.
It's like, if you want to know,you know, the latest data on,
on, uh, I don't know, placentaprevia with however much of a
gap you have between thatplacenta and your cervix, he's
going to give you thatinformation.
If you want to know the pros andcons of doing a VBAC, uh, with
your circumstance, whatever thatis, um, is going to give you the
(46:00):
pros and cons as we know them.
Cholestasis, should we, becauseyou're, you're having a
reaction, a gallbladder reactionto the pregnancy.
Uh, do we need, is the baby indanger or not in danger?
Um, even the idea of Danger is apersonal idea, but somebody
might consider it dangerous,somebody else might not consider
(46:22):
it.
Like risk.
What is risky?
Is a quarter of a percent chanceof X, Y, or Z happening risky?
Well, one person would say, I'mnot taking that risk.
And another person says, I'mdefinitely, that's 99 and three
quarters percent chance it's notgoing to happen.
So.
Yes, please.
Natalie (46:37):
right, uh
Dr. Berlin (46:39):
so I, to me, informed consent is that is
saying, Oh, here's all thechoices and here's all the data
that we have.
None of them are usually ahundred percent safe without any
possibility of something goingwrong.
Um, so here's the option.
So if you have a breech baby andyou know, you want to deliver
(46:59):
that baby one way or another,um, what are the pros and cons
of the vaginal birth versus thecesarean birth for breach in
general, but for you inparticular?
Have you had a vaginal birthbefore?
Is your baby butt down or footdown or transverse?
Uh, you know, is the headextended back or not extended
back?
How big is your baby?
These are things that are justvaried from person to person.
(47:20):
You can't just do onegeneralized study and apply it
to everybody and say, okay, nowyou don't have the choice.
Nobody has the choice.
Natalie (47:27):
uh
Dr. Berlin (47:27):
So, I think that informed consent to me means,
um, whatever the things arethat, you know, on your path
forward, wherever you have tomake a decision, um, somebody's
sitting down and explaining toyou what we know, what, what the
choices are and pros and cons,even heads up, I have a lot of
patients that deliver theirpatients, uh, their breech
babies vaginally, but when Irecommend that they watch heads
(47:49):
up, it's not because I want itto convince them to have a
vaginal breech birth.
A lot of people watch it andthey're like, yeah, I'm
definitely not doing that.
Yeah.
And that's great! I want you tohave the information and see
what appeals to you, you know?
I'll give you an example, evenjust the way, with VPAC, when we
say, Okay, well the main risk isthat the scar on the uterus is
(48:09):
gonna open up, you know?
Uterine rupture, which I thinkis an evil term.
But, um, you know, if I wantyou...
If I want to push you in thedirection of doing the VBAC,
I'll say, Oh, you know, it'sabout one half of one percent of
a chance that that's going tohappen.
Which sounds very, very tiny,right?
(48:32):
Um, and if I want you to go forthe C section, I'll say, Well,
about one in two hundred peoplehave this uterine rupture.
Well, one in two hundred is thesame as...
Yeah, I know two hundred people.
Natalie (48:44):
right,
Dr. Berlin (48:44):
You know, but that's the same as one half of 1%.
Natalie (48:48):
Mm hmm.
Dr. Berlin (48:49):
So even just the way we present data, the same exact
data can be manipulative intoyou doing what I want you to do,
or you're doing, um, somethingelse, taking a different choice.
And so that's what we try to dois we try to find the data and
present it.
In different ways, uh, fromdifferent sides or neutral ways,
(49:11):
and, um, you process it andfigure out what, what you want
to do for you, what risks youwant to take for what benefits,
and you're the one who has to gothrough it and the, with the
consequences of it, it's notgenerally my decision to make.
And so that just took me a longtime to learn as a provider.
And, um, my mission really is tohelp people realize that that's
(49:35):
how it is in America.
I work for you, and so does thehospital, and so does every
other practitioner.
Natalie (49:45):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (49:45):
But it doesn't feel that way when you're in an
oversized unisex hospital moomooand I'm in a nice scrubs or
whatever
Natalie (49:52):
Agreed.
Dr. Berlin (49:53):
lab coat.
Natalie (49:54):
Yeah.
It's more of the, you'reembodying the guide on the side
rather than the expert way outfront telling everybody the, the
quote unquote right thing to do.
Dr. Berlin (50:06):
And I'm still learning, you know.
Life is always teaching youstuff.
Natalie (50:11):
It really is.
It really is.
Um, what would you say?
I guess, is your favorite typeof response from somebody's
nervous system that you get?
Like what brings you joy in yourwork?
If that's a, like, way to putthat.
What is, what gets you up in themorning and what brings you joy
(50:32):
when you work
Dr. Berlin (50:33):
Well, there's a couple of things.
First of all, we frequently takepeople who are very pregnant and
very uncomfortable.
And in a couple of sessions,they're a lot more comfortable.
One of my favorite things iswhen somebody says, Oh my gosh,
I wish I started doing this along time ago.
Um, that's part A.
(50:55):
Part B is, uh, not so much onthe physical level, just
somebody who realizes, wait asecond, I, you know, I, I sort
of ask people, how do you wantyour birth to go?
And a lot of times they say fastand easy.
And I'm like, okay, but if youwere climbing Mount Everest, how
do you want your climb to go?
And it's not necessarily fastand easy and they start to
think, well, why do people notonly climb Mount Everest, but
(51:17):
train for a long time and pay alot of money to do it.
And, uh, and you know, causesometimes a well intentioned
partner or somebody else willsay you don't have to be a hero.
Why do you want to feel painthat you don't have to feel
like?
Why do people climb MountEverest?
There's, there's gotta be areason for it.
So, um, sometimes when you justopen someone's eyes and make
(51:37):
them realize, wait a second, I'mnot only can I, Potentially do
this a different way than thestandard.
Just go in early, get drugs,numb yourself to the whole
thing, right?
Which is also fine, but maybe Idon't have to do it that way.
And maybe I don't want to do itthat way.
And the idea, because I findmore and more that young,
(52:00):
strong, healthy women, uh, arereally believe that they can't
do can't do that.
That's not for me, you know?
And I'm like, well, just, Iwonder how it was like before we
had epidurals, you know, forthose 5, 000 years.
Um.
You know, did people think theycouldn't do it?
Or did they just think, how arewe going to do this?
Natalie (52:22):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (52:24):
And all the other animals on the planet that do it
still with, you know, naturally.
And, and again, the whole ideais to just help them think it
through.
They might think through thesethings and be like, yeah, I'm
definitely getting an epiduralin the parking lot.
Or, they might say, I want tosee what it's like on my own
steam.
(52:44):
I want to connect with my baby.
I want to see.
Also, I don't believe there'sanything as unmedicated birth.
Either we give you drugs or youmake your own.
And the drugs that you make aremuch cooler than I think we can
give you.
But they're not instant likethat.
They take time to kick in.
So having somebody have an openmind, you know, I'll, I'll tell
(53:05):
you also two things are poppinginto my head.
One is I had a patient just thisweek who came back two years
after giving birth.
Um, she came in for breach.
Her doctor said, Oh, maybe thechiropractor can help her with
this bridge.
I got the sense right away.
She did not want this baby toturn.
Natalie (53:21):
Hmm.
Dr. Berlin (53:22):
She wanted to have a cesarean birth and I, I just
called her on it.
I asked her, I'm like, it's okayto have a cesarean birth if you
want one.
And she's like, well, I don'tknow, let's see, maybe the baby
will turn, maybe the baby won'tturn.
And, uh, even when I would dothe massage and things, she's
like, okay, not too deep overthere.
Uh, and I was like barelytouching it and I just got it
(53:44):
and I had a talk with her.
That's the opposite of the talkthat I normally have, which is
like.
If there's some reason youreally don't want to have a
vaginal birth, like you want tohave a caesarean birth, that's a
totally valid option, too.
Like, that's a great, anothergreat choice that we have today
that we didn't have in the past.
And, um, I hadn't seen her intwo years.
She went and she had hercaesarean birth, I just saw her
(54:05):
this week for the first time.
And, She said, thank you so muchfor giving me, for helping me
give myself permission
Natalie (54:14):
Hmm.
Dr. Berlin (54:16):
to choose to have a caesarean birth.
It was a great experience, andit's definitely what I wanted,
and she had had in her family alot of medical complications
from things, and um, Within ayear of her having the baby,
before she got pregnant, orduring the pregnancy, she lost a
sibling, and she lost a parent,and there was just too much
(54:38):
uncertainty.
She psychologically didn't wantto deal with the unknown.
Natalie (54:42):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (54:43):
She wanted the more, like, Controlled route.
Let's do it at this time.
I know who's going to be there.
They already had their coffee.
Everything's going to be good.
And she had a great experience.
And now I, you know, I didn'tknow two years later, she just
came back and told me.
So it's the idea where you canopen up your mind to other
options, realize that you're theperson who should be in the
driver's seat and we all supportwhat it is that you want to do.
Natalie (55:06):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (55:07):
Um, and then the second thing that pops into my
head is just at birth once in awhile, the, Seeing the shift,
the transition from adrenaline,fear, fight or flight, to
confident, I got this, and justthat power, uh, and once in a
(55:27):
while, body work is the toolthat helps them get there.
And those are some of the mostpowerful moments of my life,
where, uh, one in particular, Iwalked into a home birth, and
mom was laboring, and I said,Oh, Dr.
Berlinter, do you want him tocome in?
And she said, Yes, I want him tocome in.
Uh, I got in there, and, andwhenever she would have a surge,
I would say they're about fourminutes apart.
(55:49):
Whenever she would have a surge,you could just see her whole
body tighten up, and fight it,and...
She became so uncomfortable, um,it looked violent, actually, to,
to me as an outsider.
Um, and I didn't even talk toher.
We communicated with bodylanguage.
We already had a longrelationship from even before
(56:10):
she was pregnant, uh, workingtogether.
And, uh, I just took a foot.
I took her foot and I held itand I started doing a little
reflexology and massage.
She was exhausted by the time Igot there.
She had been in labor for a longtime.
And, uh, On the next couple ofsurges, you could see she was
just a little more sleepy.
(56:31):
And there was one, eventually,where the surge came and she was
too sleepy to, like, jump up andfight herself.
And on that surge, on thatmoment when she realized that if
she's not fighting herself, it'sa lot more tolerable, That was
the moment of change.
(56:51):
And after that she would feel itcoming and not be afraid to
surrender into it.
And, uh, each time she just gotmore confident and you could
start to see oxytocin surgingaround.
Um, so if there's a moment that,That is like powerful to me in
my mind.
Um, it's those, there's severalversions of those over, over the
(57:13):
time that I used to do birthwork.
Natalie (57:15):
Amazing.
Yeah, I feel like there's a lifelesson in there somewhere, just
in that example that you shared.
That's, it's very powerful.
I think you were saying like 5,000 years ago, what did we do?
Did we fear birth?
Did we like question it?
And I think with more knowledgeand more information in this day
(57:35):
and age can also come more fear.
But you and I want to providethe information that is, takes
that fear away and gives thepower back.
So I think there's, there's afine line, right?
Lots of information.
All the stories from your auntsand your sisters and their
friends and their traumaticbirth stories that they dump on
you versus here's theinformation, here's the truth.
(57:57):
And you can choose whatever youchoose, but it comes from a
place of, of knowledge andpower.
So,
Dr. Berlin (58:04):
I once heard, uh, my good friend, Dr.
Stuart Fishbein say
Natalie (58:09):
I love doctors, too.
Dr. Berlin (58:11):
we were on a panel together and he said something
that I've, I've used many timesin his name, uh, which is that
if you're 28 years old.
And you're going to fly in anairplane for the first time, and
all you know about airplaneflight is what you see in TV
(58:32):
movies or read in newspaperheadlines.
You're going to be terrified,like really terrified.
The assumption is that everyflight that takes off either has
mechanical failure and falls outof the sky, or is hijacked by
terrorists, or has snakes on it.
Uh, but the idea that a flightcould just take off and have a
(58:53):
smooth flight with yummy snacksand land...
Um, it's foreign to you becauseyou never see that in, in, in
dramatized fashion.
So, um, most people today gettheir, their experience with
what childbirth could be likefrom TV movies, newspaper
headlines, and drama storiesfrom people who had rough
(59:15):
experiences.
And so it's no surprise that yougo in thinking, Oh God, this is
going to be the worst thingever.
I got to numb myself to as muchof it as I possibly can.
I don't want to feel anything.
Um, and then.
Once you start to look at the,the actual statistics, you
realize, okay, those are thestories that you hear.
But just like a plane can takeoff, have a great flight, and
(59:38):
land, birth generally, whenthere's not a lot of fear
involved, starts and, you know,progresses and finishes, and
there's nothing crazy thathappens in between, um, in terms
of badness.
Um, just yummy snacks.
Home birth always has...
Natalie (59:56):
It's true.
It's true.
All the home births I've beento, there's good food.
Dr. Berlin (01:00:00):
When people are like, Hey, you come to my birth,
I'm like, where are you givingbirth?
What are, what's the snacksection?
Natalie (01:00:06):
make sure.
Oh, man.
Um, okay, we'll, we'll startkind of wrapping up here.
I wanna know your number onepiece of information for our
listeners.
What do you want everyone toknow?
Dr. Berlin (01:00:21):
Um, I want you to know that it's your journey and,
um, there's no right or wrong ifyou, if you gather information
and absorb it and study it andmake a choice, that's the right
choice.
Um, you can't ever look back andwonder what if, And, uh, you
(01:00:42):
gotta surround yourself withpeople who support you and your
choices.
Natalie (01:00:46):
I love that.
Okay.
I have another question.
I ask these two to most of myguests who come on What is your
number one favorite wellnesshabit that you personally have
incorporated into your dailylife?
Dr. Berlin (01:00:59):
I do not have nearly enough wellness habits.
I might only have the onewellness habit.
Natalie (01:01:05):
That's okay,
Dr. Berlin (01:01:06):
Uh, haha, um, I meditate.
And I meditate for three minutesat a time.
Natalie (01:01:16):
okay,
Dr. Berlin (01:01:17):
Um, and the two times I could, I might do it
almost without fail.
When I get home from work, um,I'll either stop the car a block
away or in my driveway.
I used to do it in the drivewayand the kids would all run out
and I'm like, oh, this is notgood.
So I'd stop a block away.
Uh, now they're teenagers, so Ican't get them out of bed
(01:01:38):
anyway.
But, I'll meditate for aboutthree minutes.
I'll turn off the car, close myeyes, and take some deep
breaths, and just count, or toclear my mind, like rebooting a
computer, before I go into thehouse, because I work a lot.
I see patients ten hours a day,on average.
(01:01:59):
I work on all the media that wetalked about every single day.
Um, And I, I try to be presentwith my kids for their school
and helping them with theirhomework, and I never liked
reading English literature, evenwhen I was a teenager, so it's
not much more fun this timearound.
Uh, But if I take all that inwith me, there's no capacity for
(01:02:21):
me to really be present with mywife and with my kids.
So my favorite thing when I,when I do it well is that three
minute meditation.
And then the other time issometimes I'll do it right
before bed.
My, my instinct is I got to geton my phone and handle a bunch
of loose ends and then I don'tget a good night's sleep.
If instead I just close my eyesand meditate for three minutes,
(01:02:42):
I get a great night's sleep.
Natalie (01:02:44):
You probably fall asleep during that three
minutes, I'm guessing.
Dr. Berlin (01:02:46):
Oftentimes, yes.
Natalie (01:02:47):
Yeah.
Oh, that's a good one.
I will, I will have toincorporate that in my daily
routine.
I think I could use that.
Dr. Berlin (01:02:54):
Okay, I'm gonna get your number one, but you
probably have a million of them,so I'm gonna,
Natalie (01:03:01):
Well, lately, it's been walking.
It's just been getting outsideand walking.
Because it's, it's gettingcolder here.
I'm in Alaska, and the snow islike halfway down the mountain
already.
Dr. Berlin (01:03:11):
oh wow, oh yeah, because now it's September, the
cruise ships have
Natalie (01:03:14):
Exactly.
Yeah, so we're not even at theend of September and I'm, I'm
assuming the snow will be on theground by like within a month or
five weeks from now.
And so just the, work that ittakes to get out the door, go
for a walk, regardless ofweather has been really
beneficial for me.
So,
Dr. Berlin (01:03:34):
um, I crave walking, and I have no excuse, I'm in Los
Angeles,
Natalie (01:03:39):
yeah, you've got perfect weather every day.
Dr. Berlin (01:03:41):
Like, winter is 55 degrees,
Natalie (01:03:44):
Yeah, that's shorts and t shirt weather.
Oh, man.
Um,
Dr. Berlin (01:03:50):
for sharing that.
Natalie (01:03:50):
Yeah, thanks for asking.
Um, can you tell our listenerswhere to find you online?
Um, and if they are local to LosAngeles, if they want to come
see you, how would they do that?
How would they book with you?
Dr. Berlin (01:04:02):
Oh, sure.
So, uh, all the InformedPregnancy media, the podcast,
the blog, and the streamingservice, you can get from
informedpregnancy.
com.
Um, the streamer is on Apple,Android, and Roku, and the app
is called Informed PregnancyPlus.
And, uh, Instagram is where, ifI'm going to be on social media,
(01:04:24):
that's where I check once in awhile.
Um, and I do respond to prettymuch everybody who reaches out.
So, if there's any way I couldbe helpful in anything, um, I
will always try.
And in Los Angeles, we're in theMiracle Mile area.
And if you want to learn aboutour services that we offer, you
can visit drberlin.
(01:04:45):
com it's D O C T O R B E R L I Njust on Instagram.
It's the same Dr.
Berlin spelled out.
Natalie (01:04:53):
Perfect.
And I'll put all the links inthe show notes for this episode
as well, so people can easilyaccess them.
Dr. Berlin (01:04:59):
Sweet.
Thank you.
Natalie (01:05:00):
Yeah, well, thank you so much for spending your time
and energy with me today.
I, I so appreciate it.
Dr. Berlin (01:05:06):
My pleasure.
It's really special to connectwith one of the teammates I've
been working with for a longtime, but never met.
Natalie (01:05:15):
Yeah, agreed.
I love chatting with Dr.
Berlin.
He is such an amazing resourceand he has a way of working with
clients so they feel safe andempowered, which is exactly what
you want in a healthcareprovider.
My top takeaway is that ourbodies remember and it can be so
helpful to work through pasttraumas so that we can heal our
bodies and our minds.
(01:05:37):
I hope you enjoyed listening tohim as much as I enjoyed
interviewing him.
Be sure to check out his websiteand the Informed Pregnancy
Project.
All the links and resources hementioned are in the show notes
for today's episode.
Please remember that what youhear on this podcast is not
medical advice, but remember toalways be an active participant
in your care and talk to yourhealthcare team before making
(01:05:58):
important decisions.
If you found this podcasthelpful, Please consider leaving
a five star rating on Spotify orwriting a positive review on
Apple podcasts, as this reallyhelps other people find this
show.
Thanks so much for listening.
I'll catch you next time.
On today's podcast, I chat with Dr.
Berlin about his work as a bodyworker and advocate for informed
choice and how he helps hisclients feel more settled in
their nervous systems so theycan have the best birth
experience and postpartumrecovery possible.
Welcome to the ResourceDoulapodcast.
I'm Natalie, your host, and mygoal is to equip you with the
(00:21):
tools and information you needto make informed healthcare
decisions while having some funalong the way.
Through engaging interviews withexperts, personal stories, and
insightful commentary, I'll saveyou the time and effort of
sifting through countlesssources on the internet.
Consider me your personalresource dealer, because if I
don't know the answer, I canconnect you with someone who
(00:43):
probably does.
So whether you're a seasonedhealth guru or just starting
your journey, I hope this showinspires and encourages you
every step of the way.
Dr.
Elliott Berlin is an awardwinning prenatal chiropractor,
childbirth educator, laborsupport body worker, and co
founder of Berlin Wellness Groupin Los Angeles, California.
(01:03):
Dr.
Berlin graduated summa cum laudefrom Life University of
Chiropractic in Atlanta,Georgia, and the Atlanta School
of www.
1 866 325 7000.
For more information visit www.
innovative pre and postnatalwellness care techniques.
Unique chiros massage sessionssoothe and relax tight, painful
(01:25):
muscles and restore motion torestricted joints.
These 30 to 45 minute treatmentseffectively address most
pregnancy aches and pains injust a few visits, and promote
healthy, comfortable, andfunctional pregnancy.
And an ideal environment forlabor and delivery.
Dr.
Berlin's informed pregnancyproject aims to utilize multiple
(01:46):
forms of media, podcasts,YouTube series, documentaries,
and online workshops to compileand deliver unbiased information
about pregnancy and childbirthto empower new and.
Expectant parents to makeinformed choices regarding their
pregnancy and parenting journey.
Dr.
Berlin lives in Los Angeles withhis wife, perinatal
psychologist, Dr.
Alyssa Berlin, and their fourfantastic kids.
(02:20):
Dr.
Berlin, welcome to the resourcedoula podcast.
Thanks so much for being heretoday.
Dr. Berlin (02:25):
my goodness, thank you for having me.
Natalie (02:28):
Of course, of course I've been excited to talk to you
for a long time now And I justwanted to jump in with really
asking what led you to Decide topursue a career in women's
health and pregnancy andchiropractic work
Dr. Berlin (02:43):
Wow, that's a little question.
Okay, so, Uh, you ever play avideo game and you're not sure
where to go and then a big arrowcomes up and says go this way?
That's kind of how my careerunfolded.
I I was a kid and I walked intoa building in New York City
where I grew up And they wereteaching a CPR class And I was,
(03:05):
I was like, mortified.
I was like, oh my god, what arethey doing to that poor woman
with no arms and no legs?
And, and then they explain thatyou could be somebody's heart
and lungs and save their lifeuntil they can get advanced
medical care.
And I was like, that is mindboggling.
From that moment forward, Ididn't even know what it was
called, but I knew I wanted todo health care.
(03:26):
I wanted to like spend my timehere on this planet, uh, using
my body to help other people,uh, feel better or survive or
live a better life.
Uh, and so I just pursued it.
I, before.
Before I was 10 years old, I wastaking American Red Cross
classes and, uh, first aid andthen responding to emergencies
(03:47):
and CPR.
And eventually, as a teenager, Iwas teaching for the American
Red Cross.
And then, uh, when I was 17, Idid emergency medical technician
training.
When I was 18, I was working inambulances and emergency rooms.
When I was 19, I was pre med.
And then my father suddenlydied, um, partially from a
medical mix up.
(04:08):
And, um...
It was like a big shock.
I still finished all therequirements for medical school
for the pre med major, but Ialso, uh, kind of took speech
and drama.
I don't know why.
I just was like, I'd better havesomething in my pocket.
And, uh, when I, when Igraduated, I just, I needed
(04:30):
time.
I didn't, I didn't feel likedrugs and surgery was where I
wanted to be.
Um, And so, took off a year,made pizza for a pizza store,
and at night time explored awhole bunch of different
holistic or complementarymodalities of healthcare.
And I fell in love withchiropractic and massage
(04:51):
together.
The...
The fact that the nervous systemcontrols and coordinates, you
know, every cell and organ inthe body and that sometimes the
nervous system has impairmentsthat you could sort of unlock
and allow it to doctor itselfbetter, uh, was very powerful to
me.
But the, the root of unlockingthings is in the musculoskeletal
(05:15):
system.
It didn't make sense to me tojust do muscular like massage or
skeletal, like chiropractic, butto kind of go to school for both
separately and smush themtogether like the peanut butter
and chocolate of holistichealthcare.
And, uh, that's kind of what Idid.
Um, the next arrow, when itsaid, Hey, come over here, go
this way, was, uh, at the end ofgrad school.
(05:38):
So my wife and I got married,uh, pretty young.
We're married, uh, 25 years now,and,
Natalie (05:44):
congratulations, that's amazing.
Dr. Berlin (05:46):
thank you very much.
Uh, very, very, very lucky andblessed.
Um, and, uh, at the end of gradschool, she's a psychologist, a
perinatal psychologist.
And, um, when we finished gradschool, we're just like, Oh,
let's, you know, have a kid.
It's about a good time for us.
Uh, and, uh, so we followed allthe, uh, directions and no baby
(06:07):
came out.
Um, and we kept followingdirections and still no baby.
And, uh, We ended up going downthe slippery slope of assisted
reproductive technology from themedical field and, uh, years,
like three years in that system.
And, uh, at the end of it, theyjust said, we don't think you're
(06:28):
ever going to have a babytogether and we don't know why.
So you should consideralternative pathways to
parenthood.
Um, we were young, we were like25 and 27.
We were broke as could be.
We had spent every dollar onfertility treatments that didn't
work.
It was a rollercoaster ofemotions that kind of taxed our
(06:50):
relationship, our personalhealth, everything.
And so we were just broken,broken.
So we decided not a good time tobecome parents anyway, perhaps,
and so We just said, Hey, let'swork on a relationship and find
that spark again and, you know,fan the flames and, um, earn
(07:11):
some money without spending iton fertility treatment
Natalie (07:14):
Yeah, those are expensive, oh my goodness.
Dr. Berlin (07:17):
yeah, no insurance coverage.
And again, grad students, youknow, no income, so it was very
hard.
And, um, we started to dothings.
We took our nutrition moreseriously.
We started to exercise.
We were living in Nebraska andthey have these like.
Hundreds of miles of groomedbike trail, some of them, you
(07:39):
know, along railroads or lakes,or it was just really, really
beautiful.
And we would just go for hoursbike riding together.
We had no kids.
So on the bright side, there wasnothing keeping us anchored to
the house.
So, um, It just, it, it evolved.
We started to meditate and do alittle Chinese medicine.
(08:01):
And, uh, then we moved to LosAngeles for, uh, my wife's
internship.
And, uh, well, we were inNebraska for an internship.
We moved here for her postdocwas kind of like a fellowship.
And, uh, once we got settleddown, we thought, Hey, let's
maybe explore alternativepathways to parenthood, whatever
(08:21):
that means, but, uh, we nevergot to find out cause we found
out we were pregnant.
Natalie (08:26):
Oh my gosh.
Dr. Berlin (08:27):
And
Natalie (08:28):
such a happy story, oh
Dr. Berlin (08:29):
well, thanks, you know, good things come to people
who wait, I think is, that's howthat became my motto.
And, uh, then every two years wehad another kid, we couldn't
turn it off, so.
We have, uh, four kids now,thank God, and they're healthy,
and they just, when it was theright time, they came.
So.
When we opened our practice inLos Angeles, it was sort of like
(08:52):
a mind body approach for generalhealth and wellness, but also
like a focus on boostingwhatever natural fertility
someone has.
And, um, kind of in the firstyear, a couple of babies came
through that program.
And after that, it justsnowballed.
There were babies everywhere.
(09:12):
It was just raining babies.
So...
You know, we found ourselvesknee deep with patients who
would say, you know, we want tocontinue care.
I want to continue care withyou.
And I didn't know very muchabout pregnancy in general and
certainly in the chiropracticrealm.
When I was in chiropracticschool, they didn't teach very
much about pregnancy, um, bothin chiropractic and massage.
(09:35):
Bulk of the training, which wasshort was essentially what not
to do.
Don't do this.
Don't touch that.
Don't press over here
Natalie (09:44):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (09:45):
And I was like, oh, that's weird.
But what do I do?
you know and I've also learnedthat pregnant people aren't
aren't broken fragile flowers,so there's a lot not only that
you can do but that they needand can benefit from and That
just took time, you know, so Iwould Tell them hey, I'm pretty
(10:07):
sure I can work on you withoutharming you but surely There's
somebody who has more experiencewith pregnancy than me, but they
wanted to stick it out So Ilearned a lot on the job I
consulted a lot with people whohad been doing pregnancy care
before me around the country andI just over time once the volume
(10:27):
kicked in I think I started tosee more pregnant clients than
anybody I know certainly, um,and you just get a tremendous
amount of experience and thatkind of snowballs into other
things like if you have a strongrelationship of, of body work
(10:48):
and you know, I, I still domassage with most of my patients
before an adjustment.
So our visits are at least 25,30 minutes long, if not longer
every time.
And I really get to know.
A lot, you know, about where thestrengths and weaknesses are in
the musculoskeletal system.
Um, but, uh, sometimes massagetherapists, uh, just becomes
(11:11):
therapists.
And, uh, you end up learningalso where the strengths and
weaknesses are in, in their ownmind and, and, uh, spirit.
And you really can sort of...
Help them identify where thosethings are and give them tools
to be able to bolster thestrengths and fill in the
(11:34):
weaknesses and, um, uh, At somepoint that turns into, Hey, can
you come work with me when I'min labor?
Uh, and I'm like, sure.
I think.
And, um, that just, again,another big arrow saying, come
over here and support people inlabor, which I'd never.
(11:56):
Imagined or dreamed of and, uh,after the first couple of births
where I did body work isessentially why I was there, um,
it just felt like if I was goingto keep doing that, I should do,
do the training just to bebetter equipped.
Uh, I remember at one point Iwas working on somebody and the
midwife took a nap and the guywho I thought was her husband
(12:18):
went out to get some smokes andnever came back and, uh, at a
birth
Natalie (12:22):
What?
Oh, no.
Dr. Berlin (12:24):
And so things started to pick up and she
looked back and she said, saysomething meaningful.
And I'm like, I don't know.
I just rub things and crackstuff, you know?
And, uh, that made me realizelike, Ooh, maybe I should get
some better tools if I'm goingto be in this environment.
So my wife and I both did do atraining together.
Natalie (12:41):
that is so cool.
Dr. Berlin (12:43):
I mostly was there for the body work, um, and when
she did birth, she was mostlydoing more specialized care for
people who have struggles withanxiety or OCD, uh, things like
that, um, who could usedifferent perspective in birth
from a doula like, um, supportperson.
(13:05):
That's how we got here.
Natalie (13:06):
Wow.
That's an amazing journey with alot of different twists and
turns.
And yeah, I am fascinated.
Like my brain is going in a lotof different, different
directions.
I have a lot of questions to askyou, but what a unique
positioning you have with all ofyour training, your past
training, and then being able toleverage that in the birth world
(13:27):
where it's so, so needed, likethat is just.
It's incredible.
So, do you, you and your wiferight now have a joint practice
still?
Okay, how does that work?
How, like, walk me through atypical day, maybe, or like,
what someone would experience ifthey're coming to see you.
Dr. Berlin (13:43):
so our, our practice, we have a lot of
practitioners in our practice.
Natalie (13:47):
Okay.
Dr. Berlin (13:48):
we have several chiropractors who I trained in
the technique that I do with thebodywork.
Um, and we have craniopsychotherapists, massage
therapists, acupuncturists, and,uh, and my wife is the
psychologist.
So, um, people sometimes justcome in for one or the other.
Um, Or both, or a series ofthings.
(14:10):
We're all kind of independent,but we also all work like a
team.
So if somebody comes in forsomething and I'm like, you know
what, that's going to respond alot better to acupuncture, then
I'll, I'll suggest that.
And we have it right here sothey can just go get the
acupuncture or vice versa.
Or if we try something three orfour times, I usually expect.
To see a significant change,maybe not a resolution, a
(14:32):
complete resolution, but a, animprovement.
If I'm not seeing improvement, Idon't just keep doing the same
thing for a year.
You know, either switch amodality or do some imaging or
try to figure out what's whatI'm missing here.
Um, and so a lot of times, likeI'll have somebody that, uh,
comes in and, um, you start towork on the physical side of
(14:53):
things and quickly realizethere's.
The physical manifestation isjust where they're holding on to
something much deeper, much moreemotional.
Um, and if, if I sense that,I'll, I'll ask.
Sometimes they're ready to sayyes, and sometimes not.
But if they are, and it seemslike something that they want to
(15:16):
address, or there is time toaddress, a lot of these things
come up around...
Motherhood because there arethings from childhood.
And so it's a heavyresponsibility now to all of a
sudden, you know, be in theopposite role and be the one who
has to care for a child andprotect a child and take care of
a child.
Um, and, uh, I think thattransition sometimes a lot of
(15:39):
these things start to showthemselves the things that we've
swept under the carpet overtime.
now it's like obvious there's abig lump under there.
Natalie (15:48):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (15:49):
You're not fooling anybody.
So, um, that'll happensometimes, and I'll recommend
different modalities.
Some of them that my wife does,like EMDR, or Semantic
Experiencing Trauma Therapies,uh, or sometimes things that she
doesn't do, that we don't do inthe practice, like hypnotherapy,
or other modalities, orsometimes, you know, uh, talk
(16:09):
therapy, or even, uh,psychiatry, you know, depending
on what's going on.
Natalie (16:15):
Amazing.
So, what would you say are maybesome of the more common
manifestations of those issues?
Like if somebody has a lot ofanxiety surrounding becoming a
parent, how does that show up intheir body, in their nervous
system that you notice?
Dr. Berlin (16:31):
midwives sometimes say that a sizable portion of,
uh, of breech positioning is,um, the body not, not quite
ready, not wanting the baby to,to come down.
And, uh, you could sometimesfeel that because, you know,
I'll, I'll ask, you know, isthere unsettled emotion around
(16:53):
becoming a parent, aroundchildbirth?
And they'll say no, and I'll belike, motherhood?
Yes, you know, or relationship,you know, you could sort of, you
don't have to be that deeplyintuitive or even highly trained
as in a psychological world tokind of realize.
(17:14):
Okay, that's, that's probablysomething that you need to
address, um, if you want to, youknow, I, I never push it.
I'm just like, Hey, is, is thiscomponent?
I'll give you an example.
Um, that that's not evenmotherhood or pregnancy related.
I have a patient that I sawduring pregnancy and, um, she,
(17:36):
part of what she was coming infor was this shoulder issue
that, um, had been playing herfor years.
It started with a very dramaticand traumatic car accident, and
when she was just a youngteenager, and she had done years
of going to different doctorsand therapists trying to resolve
(17:57):
that issue with with no luck,and she had done a lot of talk
therapy.
With a therapist, and she haddone a lot of body work with
physical doctors, and not reallymuch improvement.
Um, and I told her that, andthis is true, after you give
birth, you kind of have a smallwindow of opportunity where you
(18:18):
still have those pregnancyhormones that make
Natalie (18:20):
Mm hmm.
Dr. Berlin (18:21):
a little bit more flexible, more moldable, clay,
but no baby inside you.
And we can get access to some ofthe things we can't get access
when there is a baby inside you.
You have a small window ofopportunity to try to make long
term changes.
Um, from chronic things, and,uh, I think we just did one or
two visits, and the, thedownside there is it's very hard
(18:41):
to get out of the house and maketime for yourself
Natalie (18:43):
Right.
Right.
Hmm.
Dr. Berlin (18:44):
a newborn home.
Um, anyway, now two years later,I, I did touch on one thing,
which is...
You know, the scalene musclewhere, uh, the neck beats the
first couple of ribs.
And, uh, it was just, she'slike, nobody has ever pushed in
there.
And that feels like the source.
And so she came back two yearslater, ready to take care of it.
(19:05):
Cause it's really been botheringher more and more now, I guess,
with all the bending, lifting,holding, feeding, changing all
the things you do with kids.
Exacerbate it.
uh, on her second visit back, Iwent to dig in there and they're
just, she just got so emotional.
So many tears started to comeout and I just asked, I'm like,
do you think this is allphysical?
(19:27):
Or do you think you still havesome trauma in there from the
accident?
And then even more, you know,tears came out and she's like,
thank you for bringing this out.
Like I never, I never was ableto find solutions.
And so I just had to.
Learn to live with it, but it'sstill there
Natalie (19:47):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (19:48):
I want to get rid of it So that's something like
that.
I I said, okay.
Well, here's a few modalitiesYou can try and it literally
just happened this morning.
So this is a one from today Isee sometimes people have all
sorts of traumas whether it'sphysical abuse as a kid Or, um,
(20:11):
just recently sexual abuse as ateenager.
Um, and, and they manifestthemselves in a lot of different
ways.
I mean, when we, when I talk topeople who want a more natural
birth experience.
Um, so at some point, if they'relooking for insight input, I'll
(20:34):
talk to them about thedifference between what oxytocin
does to your body and whatadrenaline does to your body.
Natalie (20:42):
hmm.
Mm
Dr. Berlin (20:44):
Um, I was just recently talking to somebody
about how you feel underoxytocin, the love, the bonding,
the orgasm hormone, and how, ifyou bring that out somehow
during labor, then you're.
The messages that go to yourbrain are much happier messages.
Whatever you feel in your bodythat is positive and pleasurable
(21:05):
will be magnified versus ifyou're under adrenaline and the
fear hormone, the fight orflight than anything that, um,
you perceive your brainperceives.
That could be danger.
Like pain is going to bemagnified many times before you
get the message and it'll bescreaming in pain.
And, uh, I gave her an example,which we have on our podcast of
a, uh, woman who had a 11 poundbaby.
(21:30):
Uh, vaginally, uh, unmedicatedand didn't even tear.
Um, and that's because shereally wanted to get herself
into that oxytocin mindset.
And she read books like by AnnaMcGaskin and, and listened to
podcasts and stories.
And, uh, I think she watchedOrcasmic Birth and she.
Set everything up that to getthere, even though she was in a
(21:52):
hospital setting, knowing thatthe hospital would sort of put
her more in the adrenaline sideof things.
Um, she based everything thatshe did, what she wore, what,
who was around her, what thelighting was like, what the
sense in the room were like.
She did everything she neededto, to get to the oxytocin
state.
And then my, my patient said,you know, well, how can I do
(22:13):
that?
How can I, and, and, and shejust, something in that
conversation made it clear, um,that she doesn't ever feel like
she's in an oxytocin state.
Natalie (22:25):
Mm hmm.
Dr. Berlin (22:28):
And, you know, that's, I just said, do you have
some kind of trauma thatprevents that?
And she said, yes.
And since the time I'm 80 and,um, Okay, so then it manifests
itself and it becomes, itbecomes an issue now, uh,
becoming into motherhood.
One of the things she told me isshe never wants to have a girl
(22:52):
as a child.
She doesn't want to have thatresponsibility to protect a
girl.
Um, so.
Uh, those are some of thedifferent ways that when you're
working with the body, I mean,the body is the mind, the people
sometimes mistakenly think thebrain is the mind, um, and while
the brain can store thoughts andmemories and emotions and
(23:13):
feelings, um, so can all theother human tissue.
And so
Natalie (23:18):
so powerful.
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (23:20):
you're holding that muscle.
Sometimes you're holding that inthe organs.
Sometimes you're holding that inyour uterus and your uterus is
keeping the baby up and saying,don't come out.
I'm not ready.
I can't do this.
Natalie (23:30):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (23:31):
And then, uh, you address that somehow, um, and
once they feel more settled andeverything relaxes, then the
baby will come down.
Natalie (23:40):
Yeah.
Hmm.
It's like we were made for that.
Dr. Berlin (23:45):
Yeah, who would have thought?
Natalie (23:46):
Yeah.
So, okay.
That kind of takes me into, Iguess I'm, I'm curious more what
you would say to people who hearthat.
And they're like, great, butwhat can like chiropractic do?
What does it do for me, or whatdoes massage actually, how does
that actually shift things in mynervous system?
Like, maybe some misconceptionsabout chiropractic care during
(24:10):
pregnancy especially, and howyou would respond to that.
Dr. Berlin (24:15):
Yeah.
Well, that's a multi focalquestion.
Natalie (24:18):
I know, I'm sorry.
Dr. Berlin (24:19):
I'll try to get all the pieces of it, um,
Natalie (24:22):
Yep.
Dr. Berlin (24:22):
in a timely fashion.
So, um, I look at chiropractic,I look at myself as WD 40 for
the musculoskeletal system,right?
So where things are stiff,tight, restricted, my job is to
loosen them up and restorenormal tone, get rid of the
extra...
dysfunctional grip, um, and inthe soft tissue, like muscles,
(24:43):
tendons, fascia, we do that withmassage.
We try to elongate the shortenedmuscles and restore normal
length and tone there.
And then in the bones, wherevertwo bones come together, they
form a joint, and that jointshould have motion.
between the two bones.
And if it's restricted, if itgets locked up either partially
or completely, then we adjust itand we restore motion between
the bones around the joint.
When we do it on both sides, wehave a really nice impact on
(25:06):
improvement in themusculoskeletal function.
The other side of that coin isreally duct tape, which is more
like physical therapy, um,personal training, things that
are going to find the weaknessesand instabilities and use
exercise to strengthen up andrestore stability to those
areas.
And then that way we're like,really have a complete
(25:26):
musculoskeletal health andwellness.
Uh, so then when it comes topregnancy, uh, I think that some
things are caused by pregnancyin the musculoskeletal realm and
some things are just highlightedby pregnancy.
Oftentimes we'll see somebodywith an old tailbone injury from
(25:47):
years ago and you fall on theice, ice skating, you fall
snowboarding, you fall off ahorse.
Clown, class clown pulls a chairout from under you and you just
hit the ground.
Uh, it doesn't bother you.
I mean, it's bad for a couple ofweeks, but you're young and
healthy and having a good time.
You just go about life.
And it doesn't bother you againuntil, you know, second
trimester of your firstpregnancy.
(26:09):
And now there's pressure tryingto push back against that
tailbone, but the tailbone hasno mobility in it.
You know, that can show upthere.
Uh, and then of course, does it.
depending on how it's orientedinto the pelvic outlet and how
much mobility it doesn't have,um, when the baby is trying to
come through there and also whatpositions are limited to in
(26:31):
labor and birth.
Um, if the baby's trying to comethrough there, it can cause a
serious slowdown in the birth,um, an obstruction to kind of
the birth, but also end up,because it doesn't want to move,
end up either beingsignificantly bruised or even
fractured.
Uh, but if we know about it,then we can start to loosen up
(26:52):
those tight tendons that lockedinto place to protect it
whenever that original injuryhappened.
We can do trigger points.
We can, um, even try to, if thetailbone is, the anatomy is such
that you can reach itexternally, you can kind of just
get into it and give it a littlebit of mobilization.
Uh, it makes a huge difference.
I've had several people injure atailbone in a pregnancy, uh,
(27:16):
before getting care.
And then coming back, becausethat pain will start to act up
again in the second pregnancyusually.
Um, and when we take care of it,I've never seen a repeat injury.
So, or even if we detect it in afirst pregnancy, I've never seen
an injury once we take care ofit.
So, that's just like one thing.
I mean, sciatica, that comes upduring pregnancy.
(27:39):
Um, It could be from the newsleeping position, all that
pressure on your hips,especially if you're not a side
sleeper,
Natalie (27:46):
Right.
Dr. Berlin (27:47):
um, and rib discomfort, especially if you
don't have the longest torso andyour baby starts to occupy the
full.
Space, you run out of room inthe womb.
Um, positioning things are, uh,affected by your
musculoskeletal, like when thebaby runs out of space and wants
to go head down.
If it's stiff, tight, and rigidthere, then it might be more
(28:09):
inviting to go up under yourribcage with the, with the head.
So, we don't turn babiesmanually, but we do restore
function to the musculoskeletalsystem in a way that creates
more functional space.
And, uh, babies oftentimes takeadvantage of that, once the
space is open.
So, those are some of the waysthat, uh, for comfort, for
(28:29):
function, for birth preparation,um, chiropractic could be
helpful.
Misconceptions, I don't, I thinkthat...
Sometimes you'll ask yourmedical provider, like your
doctor, How can I dochiropractic during pregnancy?
And they're not a big fan ofchiropractic even when you're
not pregnant.
So, um, I think in general, ifyou ask the wrong person the
right question, you'll getgarbage answers.
(28:51):
So, um, if I ask my, my providerof my, my medical doctor about
ashwagandha, um, he'll probablysay gesundheit or something like
that.
Uh, I don't know aboutashwagandha.
So forget about pregnancy.
It's just the wrong person toask that question to.
Natalie (29:07):
Mm
Dr. Berlin (29:07):
Um, And I would say a good number of my patients are
medical doctors.
A good number of my patients areobstetricians and midwives
themselves.
Um, and there, a good number ofour referrals come from doctors
like that.
Like, there's a bunch of doctorsthat get it.
Maybe they're skeptical ornervous the first couple of
(29:28):
times.
After a while they see, Oh, whensomebody comes with that
sciatica and we can get rid ofit in two or three visits
instead of it getting worse andworse, then instead of having to
tell the patient, Hey, there'snothing you can do about that.
I'm so sorry.
It's just a normal part ofpregnancy.
They become a superhero andthey're like, Oh, see this
person.
And they can help alleviatethat, uh, with a little bit of
(29:49):
massage and adjustment, someacupuncture
Natalie (29:53):
Yeah.
And that really makes adifference for future
pregnancies, if not only thelabor and delivery that they
have with that one.
It's incredible.
I love that you brought upexercise, too.
Of course, that's my jam.
That's my thing.
So I really, I really enjoy thecollaborative aspect of care
when you can refer to otherproviders and address the entire
(30:16):
body as a holistic person with,you know, multiple, multiple
modalities.
I think that's, that's great.
Dr. Berlin (30:23):
teamwork.
Natalie (30:24):
Yeah, it's really the future of medicine and health
care, wellness care,essentially.
Dr. Berlin (30:29):
Well, I think it is healthcare.
I think our, our current system.
In the United States, anyway,that we call the health care
system is more aptly, and I'mnot saying this like
sarcastically, but I think it'sreally disease care, um, which
is, if you go to your doctor, atleast things are starting to
(30:50):
improve a little bit, but, youknow, 10 years ago, if you go to
your doctor and you say, Hey,I'm feeling fine, they'll be
like, okay, get out of here.
Um,
Natalie (30:56):
you here?
Dr. Berlin (30:57):
exactly what the absence of symptoms is not
health.
Natalie (31:01):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Berlin (31:02):
Right.
There's, there's a lot that youcan work on to improve and keep
yourself healthy.
So they would only see if youhave symptoms or problems or
disease.
So that system really is set upfor disease care and health care
is the other side of the coinwhere you do things to, uh, you
know, work on and promote yourphysical, mental, and spiritual
(31:24):
health, um, to keep it
Natalie (31:27):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Um, okay.
So what I know about you isbasically we have a similar
mission is, you know, providingpeople with lots of information,
lots of resources so they canmake informed decisions about
their own bodies, about theirfamilies, about their health in
general.
Um, Um, and especially whenthey're going through that
(31:50):
motherhood transition, thatparent had transitioned from not
having any, any children to allof a sudden they're parents.
Um, so you've developed likethis empire essentially of
pregnancy resources, um, calledthe Informed Pregnancy Project.
Can you talk about that more,kind of explain what's included,
what's your goal with that?
Dr. Berlin (32:12):
that you said, it's about, uh, sort of compiling
information.
And.
Delivering it in digestibleformats and presenting multiple
sides, um, of, of options, youknow, choices when you have a
choice to make, trying topresent all the different
(32:34):
choices that should be availableto you.
And some of the pros and cons ofthem, um, and sometimes just
experiences, anecdotalexperiences from people who've
been there and done that.
So it started very organicallyalso, just, uh, when I got into
working with pregnancy, allthese questions would come up
again and again, I wouldn't knowanything about it.
(32:56):
Uh, Hey, can you help me find adoctor who's supportive of VBAC?
And I'm like, Sure, what's VBAC?
You know, and then, uh, I'd belike, oh, why wouldn't you be
able to give birth vaginallyjust because you had a C
section?
And they were like, oh, yeah, alot of the doctors won't do it,
(33:17):
or the hospitals won't do it.
And then I would just doresearch on my own because I was
very curious about, there mustbe a solid reason why we're not
offering this to people.
Natalie (33:28):
hmm.
Dr. Berlin (33:29):
Even just from an economic perspective, I was
like, it's not like Whatinsurance company wants to pay
for a C section when you canjust do a vaginal or even the
four times the hotel, the hotelhospital stay?
Um, why would they want to dothat?
And so, you know, the more I'dresearch all these, all these
questions and come up withanswers, um, I, I would start to
(33:51):
compile them and we started justa, a little magazine actually
that we're printing anddistributing all over the place
with questions and answers andlittle articles, uh, that turned
into a podcast like 10, 12 yearsago.
Um, I didn't know anything aboutpodcasting.
I just knew I, this new mediumwas available and I wanted to
(34:13):
get out there and talk topeople.
So I, uh, I think the firstpodcast I did, the first episode
costs about 1, 500.
Natalie (34:24):
Oh my goodness.
Dr. Berlin (34:26):
Yeah, because I rented a studio, a very fancy
studio in Santa Monica,California, where Pink records
her albums.
So it's like a floating studiothat's soundproof and had all
this high tech equipment andthis engineer.
And, uh, I thought, okay, I'lljust rent it for an hour.
Uh, and then I didn't realizethe, you know, guests don't
(34:46):
always come on time.
And so the clock is ticking andthe conversation got long and,
and then.
You also pay for the studioduring the time that the
engineer is editing yourpodcast, which took a while.
Yeah, it was like 1, 500 for thefirst episode.
I think I got the second episodedown to 1, 000.
And I was like, okay, I could dothis, like, three times a year.
(35:08):
And of course now podcastingbeing what it is, you know, it's
a whole different situation,but, uh, it, it grew just
organically.
Like, uh, my cohost was pregnantwith her first baby at the time
and she was so curious and shewas able to ask questions from.
The perspective that most of theaudience was going to want to
(35:29):
know.
And, uh, it was just a greatchemistry.
And we essentially branched intothree types of episodes.
Um, one is just, um, an experttalking about a topic.
So amniotic fluid or umbilicalcord or.
Uh, Placenta previa or anythinglike that.
Um, and then birth stories.
(35:51):
So that also became, it becamecurious to me to sort of record
people before they have the babyand kind of get into what
they're planning.
And then after they have thebaby and see how things went
down and what they learned fromthe experience that we could
also learn from the experience.
And then over time, because it'sHollywood, we started seeing
(36:11):
celebrity clients and.
You know, uh, they would getbenefit out of listening to the
podcast.
So if I would ask them to joinme, they would feel like paying
it forward and sharing theirexperience.
So those are the basic types ofepisodes that we have.
Um, and then I was reallycompelled by that VBAT question
(36:32):
and also breach was another onewhere we get so many breach
questions and people panickingover breach and, uh, that
compelled me to make twodocumentaries.
Uh, even though I didn't knowanything about making
documentaries, I made one onbreech
Natalie (36:47):
you, just doing it.
Dr. Berlin (36:50):
Haha.
Well, yeah, thanks.
It's hard to watch peoplestruggle with no information and
powerless.
So, uh, one's called, Heads Up!The Disappearing Art of Vaginal
Breach Delivery, and one iscalled Trial of Labor, which is
all about VBAC.
From...
women's perspective.
So it's for women who arepregnant for the second or third
(37:10):
time and previously only hadcesarean birth that they did not
plan for.
And, uh, we shot a lot ofdoctors and experts and one day
it just became clear to us if wecut out all those talking heads,
the story is so much morepowerful, uh, coming from a
woman about her experience andabout this.
(37:31):
Uh, journey because they wereall pregnant while we shot, uh,
this journey to try have a moreempowered birth experience.
And it came out and, and, andthe guy who directed it with me,
his name is Robert Humphries.
He's a, a really very talentedcinematographer, director of
photography, and it just cameout.
(37:51):
The cinematography in there isvery, very well done.
Uh, and then, it was likestriking a match.
We came out with thisdocumentary, and there was so
much noise about it, and peoplewere doing screenings, and
people, all this conversationsonline.
Uh, and then, I don't know, ayear later, it was, I was
getting these messages frompeople saying, Oh, I loved your
(38:13):
movie, Trial of Labor.
I wish I saw it before I had mysecond baby.
And I was like, wait a second.
I made it so that you could seeit before you had your second
baby.
It was like, painful.
Um, and so I reached out toRicky Lake and some other
people, uh, like, how do you getyour movies, how do you keep
(38:34):
them alive and out there and,and ahead of the audience before
they...
They have to make the choices,you know, and, um, I, a lot of
the filmmakers said same issue,you know, came out with a big
bang and then just fizzled outand it's hard for people to find
them and to, to watch them.
They're all scattered indifferent places and got to
become memberships of all theseweird subscription.
(38:58):
Services, uh, you know, and someof them seem shady, like I'm
probably going to have to cancelmy credit card next week.
Um,
Natalie (39:05):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (39:06):
and, uh, that just gave me an idea, like, there
should be one place where allthese things live together,
where everybody can access them,anybody with internet can access
them.
They shouldn't be costprohibitive, it's important
stuff.
And so that gave rise toInformed Pregnancy Plus, which
is, uh, a streaming site.
(39:28):
Um, Adam form pregnancy dot TV.
And, uh, we have a lot of thoseiconic films, orgasmic birth,
the business of being born.
These are my hours, mamaSherpa's breast milk, the Milky
way.
Um, but also a whole bunch of,uh, lesser known films that are,
are pretty important to, uh, ofcourse, my two films around
(39:48):
there.
And then we expanded into alittle series, some of that we
produce like the real midwivesof Los Angeles.
And, uh,
Natalie (39:56):
need to watch that.
I have not watched that yet.
Dr. Berlin (39:59):
I think it's good, uh, My Birth, Baby Book Nook,
where we do book reviews of abunch of the parenting and
pregnancy books, and, um, Now wehave a whole mind and body
section with yoga and meditationand exercise and belly dance and
all these different things forthe mind and body and Workshops,
(40:20):
so my wife has a workshop calledthe afterbirth plan where you
plan for after birth Thesubtitle could be how to still
like your partner after you havea baby together
Natalie (40:29):
It's so
Dr. Berlin (40:30):
and then Sleep on there, nutrition on there, um,
and it's just, you know, it's, Ithink, priced to be affordable.
Just around 7 a month and it'son Apple Android and Roku so you
can access it from pretty muchany device and We're just
(40:50):
constantly adding more stuffthere and the feedback is so
good Like now people are gettinglots of information Before it's
too late, and that just makes meFeel great.
And the last thing is our blog.
We have a great head of content.
Her name is Rose and she's justa great writer and she's a great
way of connecting with people,finding out what their secret
(41:14):
superpowers are, what they knowthat we need to know.
And, uh, putting it into a, ablog article that is also easy
to digest.
So that is the informedpregnancy project.
And one day.
Down the road, I will sleep avery long time.
Natalie (41:30):
Oh, man.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Um, yeah, those, those bigumbrella projects are so
necessary, but also so timeconsuming.
So I'm sure it's a ton of workon the back end, but it's an
amazing resource and that's whatI'm all about.
I mean, obviously my podcast iscalled the resource doula give
people resources.
So I'm, I'm happy to haveanother resource.
(41:53):
To give people.
Um,
Dr. Berlin (41:55):
thank you.
Natalie (41:56):
yeah, yeah, of course.
Um, okay, kind of going off ofthat, I have another question
that informed consent andinformed choice, obviously
informed pregnancy is yourthing.
How does that show up in yourwork?
Even if, if you're going to alabor or you're working on
somebody prior to or after,like, How would you define
(42:20):
informed choice for motherhood,for parenthood?
Um, And maybe like what youwould hope to, I have, I do have
loaded questions.
I'm sorry.
Um, what you hope to see in thefuture for like options, because
education is, is power, right?
Knowing options is, is powerfulfor people.
(42:41):
So does that, if that's not toolong of a question.
Dr. Berlin (42:44):
No, not at all.
Uh, you know, I learned a lotabout informed choice over, over
the past 20 years as apractitioner.
Um, you know, you have all theseideals and, and I, I sometimes
want something for somebody sobadly that they don't want for
(43:05):
themselves.
Natalie (43:06):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (43:07):
And at the end of the day, it's not about what I
want.
It's about what they want.
And, um, it, the nuances that goalong with that, the learning
curve that goes along with that,um, has been huge for me.
You know, I sort of, I sort ofdislike the, the early
(43:29):
practitioner who was me, um, interms of that, because I, I kind
of had an agenda.
And I was like, I'm going tohelp you out.
I'm going to, you're thirsty.
Here's water.
Come, come get the water, youknow?
And, um, it comes from a goodplace, but, um, it's, it's, it's
(43:50):
something that requiredexperience and maturity to
realize, um, that's not informedchoice.
That's.
That's me thinking I know what'sbest and
Natalie (44:00):
Mm hmm.
Dr. Berlin (44:00):
you there.
So,
Natalie (44:02):
I think it's pretty common in a lot of
practitioners, we, when we knowbetter, we do better, right?
So, uh huh,
Dr. Berlin (44:07):
totally, and, but, so, I, I, I come from a place,
even with what happened to mydad, I don't, I don't dislike
medicine, drugs and surgery, I,I appreciate them, um, but I
realize their strengths andtheir, Their strength to do good
and their strength to do harmand so I just didn't want to be
(44:29):
the one in that space practicingdrugs and surgery, but I respect
them and I think they're greatand I think look on the one hand
I think the only thing sadder tome than a cesarean that's pushed
on someone who doesn't need oneand doesn't want one is Someone
who needs one and doesn't haveaccess to one.
(44:52):
So it's an incredible tool You,you sometimes see it overused or
people pushed into it who don'treally want it and, you know,
arguably don't need it.
And I think that oftentimes itcomes from a good place.
I don't think medicine is bad.
I don't think doctors are bad.
(45:12):
I think it comes from a goodplace where they're like, no,
no, if you were my daughter, Iwould do this.
We should do this.
We have to do this.
Um, but that's not really howit's supposed to be.
It's supposed to be like, here'sall the choices and here are the
pros and cons as I know them.
You know, here's data.
I love, I have a doctor who doesa lot of second opinions for
people, and, um, his whole thingis he doesn't make a decision
(45:36):
for you at all.
It's like, if you want to know,you know, the latest data on,
on, uh, I don't know, placentaprevia with however much of a
gap you have between thatplacenta and your cervix, he's
going to give you thatinformation.
If you want to know the pros andcons of doing a VBAC, uh, with
your circumstance, whatever thatis, um, is going to give you the
(46:00):
pros and cons as we know them.
Cholestasis, should we, becauseyou're, you're having a
reaction, a gallbladder reactionto the pregnancy.
Uh, do we need, is the baby indanger or not in danger?
Um, even the idea of Danger is apersonal idea, but somebody
might consider it dangerous,somebody else might not consider
(46:22):
it.
Like risk.
What is risky?
Is a quarter of a percent chanceof X, Y, or Z happening risky?
Well, one person would say, I'mnot taking that risk.
And another person says, I'mdefinitely, that's 99 and three
quarters percent chance it's notgoing to happen.
So.
Yes, please.
Natalie (46:37):
right, uh
Dr. Berlin (46:39):
so I, to me, informed consent is that is
saying, Oh, here's all thechoices and here's all the data
that we have.
None of them are usually ahundred percent safe without any
possibility of something goingwrong.
Um, so here's the option.
So if you have a breech baby andyou know, you want to deliver
(46:59):
that baby one way or another,um, what are the pros and cons
of the vaginal birth versus thecesarean birth for breach in
general, but for you inparticular?
Have you had a vaginal birthbefore?
Is your baby butt down or footdown or transverse?
Uh, you know, is the headextended back or not extended
back?
How big is your baby?
These are things that are justvaried from person to person.
(47:20):
You can't just do onegeneralized study and apply it
to everybody and say, okay, nowyou don't have the choice.
Nobody has the choice.
Natalie (47:27):
uh
Dr. Berlin (47:27):
So, I think that informed consent to me means,
um, whatever the things arethat, you know, on your path
forward, wherever you have tomake a decision, um, somebody's
sitting down and explaining toyou what we know, what, what the
choices are and pros and cons,even heads up, I have a lot of
patients that deliver theirpatients, uh, their breech
babies vaginally, but when Irecommend that they watch heads
(47:49):
up, it's not because I want itto convince them to have a
vaginal breech birth.
A lot of people watch it andthey're like, yeah, I'm
definitely not doing that.
Yeah.
And that's great! I want you tohave the information and see
what appeals to you, you know?
I'll give you an example, evenjust the way, with VPAC, when we
say, Okay, well the main risk isthat the scar on the uterus is
(48:09):
gonna open up, you know?
Uterine rupture, which I thinkis an evil term.
But, um, you know, if I wantyou...
If I want to push you in thedirection of doing the VBAC,
I'll say, Oh, you know, it'sabout one half of one percent of
a chance that that's going tohappen.
Which sounds very, very tiny,right?
(48:32):
Um, and if I want you to go forthe C section, I'll say, Well,
about one in two hundred peoplehave this uterine rupture.
Well, one in two hundred is thesame as...
Yeah, I know two hundred people.
Natalie (48:44):
right,
Dr. Berlin (48:44):
You know, but that's the same as one half of 1%.
Natalie (48:48):
Mm hmm.
Dr. Berlin (48:49):
So even just the way we present data, the same exact
data can be manipulative intoyou doing what I want you to do,
or you're doing, um, somethingelse, taking a different choice.
And so that's what we try to dois we try to find the data and
present it.
In different ways, uh, fromdifferent sides or neutral ways,
(49:11):
and, um, you process it andfigure out what, what you want
to do for you, what risks youwant to take for what benefits,
and you're the one who has to gothrough it and the, with the
consequences of it, it's notgenerally my decision to make.
And so that just took me a longtime to learn as a provider.
And, um, my mission really is tohelp people realize that that's
(49:35):
how it is in America.
I work for you, and so does thehospital, and so does every
other practitioner.
Natalie (49:45):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (49:45):
But it doesn't feel that way when you're in an
oversized unisex hospital moomooand I'm in a nice scrubs or
whatever
Natalie (49:52):
Agreed.
Dr. Berlin (49:53):
lab coat.
Natalie (49:54):
Yeah.
It's more of the, you'reembodying the guide on the side
rather than the expert way outfront telling everybody the, the
quote unquote right thing to do.
Dr. Berlin (50:06):
And I'm still learning, you know.
Life is always teaching youstuff.
Natalie (50:11):
It really is.
It really is.
Um, what would you say?
I guess, is your favorite typeof response from somebody's
nervous system that you get?
Like what brings you joy in yourwork?
If that's a, like, way to putthat.
What is, what gets you up in themorning and what brings you joy
(50:32):
when you work
Dr. Berlin (50:33):
Well, there's a couple of things.
First of all, we frequently takepeople who are very pregnant and
very uncomfortable.
And in a couple of sessions,they're a lot more comfortable.
One of my favorite things iswhen somebody says, Oh my gosh,
I wish I started doing this along time ago.
Um, that's part A.
(50:55):
Part B is, uh, not so much onthe physical level, just
somebody who realizes, wait asecond, I, you know, I, I sort
of ask people, how do you wantyour birth to go?
And a lot of times they say fastand easy.
And I'm like, okay, but if youwere climbing Mount Everest, how
do you want your climb to go?
And it's not necessarily fastand easy and they start to
think, well, why do people notonly climb Mount Everest, but
(51:17):
train for a long time and pay alot of money to do it.
And, uh, and you know, causesometimes a well intentioned
partner or somebody else willsay you don't have to be a hero.
Why do you want to feel painthat you don't have to feel
like?
Why do people climb MountEverest?
There's, there's gotta be areason for it.
So, um, sometimes when you justopen someone's eyes and make
(51:37):
them realize, wait a second, I'mnot only can I, Potentially do
this a different way than thestandard.
Just go in early, get drugs,numb yourself to the whole
thing, right?
Which is also fine, but maybe Idon't have to do it that way.
And maybe I don't want to do itthat way.
And the idea, because I findmore and more that young,
(52:00):
strong, healthy women, uh, arereally believe that they can't
do can't do that.
That's not for me, you know?
And I'm like, well, just, Iwonder how it was like before we
had epidurals, you know, forthose 5, 000 years.
Um.
You know, did people think theycouldn't do it?
Or did they just think, how arewe going to do this?
Natalie (52:22):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (52:24):
And all the other animals on the planet that do it
still with, you know, naturally.
And, and again, the whole ideais to just help them think it
through.
They might think through thesethings and be like, yeah, I'm
definitely getting an epiduralin the parking lot.
Or, they might say, I want tosee what it's like on my own
steam.
(52:44):
I want to connect with my baby.
I want to see.
Also, I don't believe there'sanything as unmedicated birth.
Either we give you drugs or youmake your own.
And the drugs that you make aremuch cooler than I think we can
give you.
But they're not instant likethat.
They take time to kick in.
So having somebody have an openmind, you know, I'll, I'll tell
(53:05):
you also two things are poppinginto my head.
One is I had a patient just thisweek who came back two years
after giving birth.
Um, she came in for breach.
Her doctor said, Oh, maybe thechiropractor can help her with
this bridge.
I got the sense right away.
She did not want this baby toturn.
Natalie (53:21):
Hmm.
Dr. Berlin (53:22):
She wanted to have a cesarean birth and I, I just
called her on it.
I asked her, I'm like, it's okayto have a cesarean birth if you
want one.
And she's like, well, I don'tknow, let's see, maybe the baby
will turn, maybe the baby won'tturn.
And, uh, even when I would dothe massage and things, she's
like, okay, not too deep overthere.
Uh, and I was like barelytouching it and I just got it
(53:44):
and I had a talk with her.
That's the opposite of the talkthat I normally have, which is
like.
If there's some reason youreally don't want to have a
vaginal birth, like you want tohave a caesarean birth, that's a
totally valid option, too.
Like, that's a great, anothergreat choice that we have today
that we didn't have in the past.
And, um, I hadn't seen her intwo years.
She went and she had hercaesarean birth, I just saw her
(54:05):
this week for the first time.
And, She said, thank you so muchfor giving me, for helping me
give myself permission
Natalie (54:14):
Hmm.
Dr. Berlin (54:16):
to choose to have a caesarean birth.
It was a great experience, andit's definitely what I wanted,
and she had had in her family alot of medical complications
from things, and um, Within ayear of her having the baby,
before she got pregnant, orduring the pregnancy, she lost a
sibling, and she lost a parent,and there was just too much
(54:38):
uncertainty.
She psychologically didn't wantto deal with the unknown.
Natalie (54:42):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (54:43):
She wanted the more, like, Controlled route.
Let's do it at this time.
I know who's going to be there.
They already had their coffee.
Everything's going to be good.
And she had a great experience.
And now I, you know, I didn'tknow two years later, she just
came back and told me.
So it's the idea where you canopen up your mind to other
options, realize that you're theperson who should be in the
driver's seat and we all supportwhat it is that you want to do.
Natalie (55:06):
Yeah.
Dr. Berlin (55:07):
Um, and then the second thing that pops into my
head is just at birth once in awhile, the, Seeing the shift,
the transition from adrenaline,fear, fight or flight, to
confident, I got this, and justthat power, uh, and once in a
(55:27):
while, body work is the toolthat helps them get there.
And those are some of the mostpowerful moments of my life,
where, uh, one in particular, Iwalked into a home birth, and
mom was laboring, and I said,Oh, Dr.
Berlinter, do you want him tocome in?
And she said, Yes, I want him tocome in.
Uh, I got in there, and, andwhenever she would have a surge,
I would say they're about fourminutes apart.
(55:49):
Whenever she would have a surge,you could just see her whole
body tighten up, and fight it,and...
She became so uncomfortable, um,it looked violent, actually, to,
to me as an outsider.
Um, and I didn't even talk toher.
We communicated with bodylanguage.
We already had a longrelationship from even before
(56:10):
she was pregnant, uh, workingtogether.
And, uh, I just took a foot.
I took her foot and I held itand I started doing a little
reflexology and massage.
She was exhausted by the time Igot there.
She had been in labor for a longtime.
And, uh, On the next couple ofsurges, you could see she was
just a little more sleepy.
(56:31):
And there was one, eventually,where the surge came and she was
too sleepy to, like, jump up andfight herself.
And on that surge, on thatmoment when she realized that if
she's not fighting herself, it'sa lot more tolerable, That was
the moment of change.
(56:51):
And after that she would feel itcoming and not be afraid to
surrender into it.
And, uh, each time she just gotmore confident and you could
start to see oxytocin surgingaround.
Um, so if there's a moment that,That is like powerful to me in
my mind.
Um, it's those, there's severalversions of those over, over the
(57:13):
time that I used to do birthwork.
Natalie (57:15):
Amazing.
Yeah, I feel like there's a lifelesson in there somewhere, just
in that example that you shared.
That's, it's very powerful.
I think you were saying like 5,000 years ago, what did we do?
Did we fear birth?
Did we like question it?
And I think with more knowledgeand more information in this day
(57:35):
and age can also come more fear.
But you and I want to providethe information that is, takes
that fear away and gives thepower back.
So I think there's, there's afine line, right?
Lots of information.
All the stories from your auntsand your sisters and their
friends and their traumaticbirth stories that they dump on
you versus here's theinformation, here's the truth.
(57:57):
And you can choose whatever youchoose, but it comes from a
place of, of knowledge andpower.
So,
Dr. Berlin (58:04):
I once heard, uh, my good friend, Dr.
Stuart Fishbein say
Natalie (58:09):
I love doctors, too.
Dr. Berlin (58:11):
we were on a panel together and he said something
that I've, I've used many timesin his name, uh, which is that
if you're 28 years old.
And you're going to fly in anairplane for the first time, and
all you know about airplaneflight is what you see in TV
(58:32):
movies or read in newspaperheadlines.
You're going to be terrified,like really terrified.
The assumption is that everyflight that takes off either has
mechanical failure and falls outof the sky, or is hijacked by
terrorists, or has snakes on it.
Uh, but the idea that a flightcould just take off and have a
(58:53):
smooth flight with yummy snacksand land...
Um, it's foreign to you becauseyou never see that in, in, in
dramatized fashion.
So, um, most people today gettheir, their experience with
what childbirth could be likefrom TV movies, newspaper
headlines, and drama storiesfrom people who had rough
(59:15):
experiences.
And so it's no surprise that yougo in thinking, Oh God, this is
going to be the worst thingever.
I got to numb myself to as muchof it as I possibly can.
I don't want to feel anything.
Um, and then.
Once you start to look at the,the actual statistics, you
realize, okay, those are thestories that you hear.
But just like a plane can takeoff, have a great flight, and
(59:38):
land, birth generally, whenthere's not a lot of fear
involved, starts and, you know,progresses and finishes, and
there's nothing crazy thathappens in between, um, in terms
of badness.
Um, just yummy snacks.
Home birth always has...
Natalie (59:56):
It's true.
It's true.
All the home births I've beento, there's good food.
Dr. Berlin (01:00:00):
When people are like, Hey, you come to my birth,
I'm like, where are you givingbirth?
What are, what's the snacksection?
Natalie (01:00:06):
make sure.
Oh, man.
Um, okay, we'll, we'll startkind of wrapping up here.
I wanna know your number onepiece of information for our
listeners.
What do you want everyone toknow?
Dr. Berlin (01:00:21):
Um, I want you to know that it's your journey and,
um, there's no right or wrong ifyou, if you gather information
and absorb it and study it andmake a choice, that's the right
choice.
Um, you can't ever look back andwonder what if, And, uh, you
(01:00:42):
gotta surround yourself withpeople who support you and your
choices.
Natalie (01:00:46):
I love that.
Okay.
I have another question.
I ask these two to most of myguests who come on What is your
number one favorite wellnesshabit that you personally have
incorporated into your dailylife?
Dr. Berlin (01:00:59):
I do not have nearly enough wellness habits.
I might only have the onewellness habit.
Natalie (01:01:05):
That's okay,
Dr. Berlin (01:01:06):
Uh, haha, um, I meditate.
And I meditate for three minutesat a time.
Natalie (01:01:16):
okay,
Dr. Berlin (01:01:17):
Um, and the two times I could, I might do it
almost without fail.
When I get home from work, um,I'll either stop the car a block
away or in my driveway.
I used to do it in the drivewayand the kids would all run out
and I'm like, oh, this is notgood.
So I'd stop a block away.
Uh, now they're teenagers, so Ican't get them out of bed
(01:01:38):
anyway.
But, I'll meditate for aboutthree minutes.
I'll turn off the car, close myeyes, and take some deep
breaths, and just count, or toclear my mind, like rebooting a
computer, before I go into thehouse, because I work a lot.
I see patients ten hours a day,on average.
(01:01:59):
I work on all the media that wetalked about every single day.
Um, And I, I try to be presentwith my kids for their school
and helping them with theirhomework, and I never liked
reading English literature, evenwhen I was a teenager, so it's
not much more fun this timearound.
Uh, But if I take all that inwith me, there's no capacity for
(01:02:21):
me to really be present with mywife and with my kids.
So my favorite thing when I,when I do it well is that three
minute meditation.
And then the other time issometimes I'll do it right
before bed.
My, my instinct is I got to geton my phone and handle a bunch
of loose ends and then I don'tget a good night's sleep.
If instead I just close my eyesand meditate for three minutes,
(01:02:42):
I get a great night's sleep.
Natalie (01:02:44):
You probably fall asleep during that three
minutes, I'm guessing.
Dr. Berlin (01:02:46):
Oftentimes, yes.
Natalie (01:02:47):
Yeah.
Oh, that's a good one.
I will, I will have toincorporate that in my daily
routine.
I think I could use that.
Dr. Berlin (01:02:54):
Okay, I'm gonna get your number one, but you
probably have a million of them,so I'm gonna,
Natalie (01:03:01):
Well, lately, it's been walking.
It's just been getting outsideand walking.
Because it's, it's gettingcolder here.
I'm in Alaska, and the snow islike halfway down the mountain
already.
Dr. Berlin (01:03:11):
oh wow, oh yeah, because now it's September, the
cruise ships have
Natalie (01:03:14):
Exactly.
Yeah, so we're not even at theend of September and I'm, I'm
assuming the snow will be on theground by like within a month or
five weeks from now.
And so just the, work that ittakes to get out the door, go
for a walk, regardless ofweather has been really
beneficial for me.
So,
Dr. Berlin (01:03:34):
um, I crave walking, and I have no excuse, I'm in Los
Angeles,
Natalie (01:03:39):
yeah, you've got perfect weather every day.
Dr. Berlin (01:03:41):
Like, winter is 55 degrees,
Natalie (01:03:44):
Yeah, that's shorts and t shirt weather.
Oh, man.
Um,
Dr. Berlin (01:03:50):
for sharing that.
Natalie (01:03:50):
Yeah, thanks for asking.
Um, can you tell our listenerswhere to find you online?
Um, and if they are local to LosAngeles, if they want to come
see you, how would they do that?
How would they book with you?
Dr. Berlin (01:04:02):
Oh, sure.
So, uh, all the InformedPregnancy media, the podcast,
the blog, and the streamingservice, you can get from
informedpregnancy.
com.
Um, the streamer is on Apple,Android, and Roku, and the app
is called Informed PregnancyPlus.
And, uh, Instagram is where, ifI'm going to be on social media,
(01:04:24):
that's where I check once in awhile.
Um, and I do respond to prettymuch everybody who reaches out.
So, if there's any way I couldbe helpful in anything, um, I
will always try.
And in Los Angeles, we're in theMiracle Mile area.
And if you want to learn aboutour services that we offer, you
can visit drberlin.
(01:04:45):
com it's D O C T O R B E R L I Njust on Instagram.
It's the same Dr.
Berlin spelled out.
Natalie (01:04:53):
Perfect.
And I'll put all the links inthe show notes for this episode
as well, so people can easilyaccess them.
Dr. Berlin (01:04:59):
Sweet.
Thank you.
Natalie (01:05:00):
Yeah, well, thank you so much for spending your time
and energy with me today.
I, I so appreciate it.
Dr. Berlin (01:05:06):
My pleasure.
It's really special to connectwith one of the teammates I've
been working with for a longtime, but never met.
Natalie (01:05:15):
Yeah, agreed.
I love chatting with Dr.
Berlin.
He is such an amazing resourceand he has a way of working with
clients so they feel safe andempowered, which is exactly what
you want in a healthcareprovider.
My top takeaway is that ourbodies remember and it can be so
helpful to work through pasttraumas so that we can heal our
bodies and our minds.
(01:05:37):
I hope you enjoyed listening tohim as much as I enjoyed
interviewing him.
Be sure to check out his websiteand the Informed Pregnancy
Project.
All the links and resources hementioned are in the show notes
for today's episode.
Please remember that what youhear on this podcast is not
medical advice, but remember toalways be an active participant
in your care and talk to yourhealthcare team before making
(01:05:58):
important decisions.
If you found this podcasthelpful, Please consider leaving
a five star rating on Spotify orwriting a positive review on
Apple podcasts, as this reallyhelps other people find this
show.
Thanks so much for listening.
I'll catch you next time.
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