April 17, 2025 • 34 mins
This is a Vintage Selection from 2007
The Conversation
The Restaurant Guy, Francis, visits viticulturist Barbara Shinn at her vineyard in Long Island, NY. As they walk the fields, they discuss how she became a biodynamic farmer and how that is expressed in the wine. She uses a variety of methods from fish guts to laser planters with sublime results.
The Inside Track
The Guys knew Barbara from The Red Meat Club (a monthly gathering of NYC restaurateurs) and her restaurant Home which she ran with husband David Page. The couple bought a vineyard and taught themselves how to grow grapes and make wine. Barbara talks about forging her own path to create a sustainable vineyard with excellent wines.
“ My philosophy before we planted the vines was to make very, very high quality wine and to be as organic as possible. Our best winemaker friends and our best manager friends and even the viticultural section of Cornell University flat out said to us, ‘You cannot do both things at once. Here on the East Coast, we have too much disease pressure. It's too humid. You cannot be organic in this environment. So if you wanna make high quality wines, do that. You'll be lucky if two to 3% of the materials that you use in your vineyard are organic.’
And this year, well, I proved them wrong,” Barbara Shinn on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2007
Info
Barbara no longer owns Shinn Estate Vineyards
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark (00:41):
Good morning, mark.
Morning Francis.
How are you this morning?
I'm very well.
Yesterday we did a greatinterview with David Page out at
Shin Vineyards, uh, who took usthrough the the changing
lifestyle.
Of going from a chef to awinemaker, and today we're gonna
be talking for a little while.
Uh, Francis did anotherinterview during that same trip
with Barbara Shin, who isDavid's wife.
(01:03):
I
Francis (01:03):
think that my interview with Barbara talks more about
the vineyard itself.
Mm-hmm.
And how they, they're reallydoing things that radically
different and we've been to alot of vineyards in a lot of
parts of the world.
Uh, they're,
Mark (01:12):
they're certainly doing things very differently than,
than people on Long Island are,are doing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They've really changed that orhopefully are going to change.
I don't wanna say they'vechanged'cause I don't think that
many people are doing things theway they do, but hopefully
they'll change the paradigm.
Hopefully they'll change the waythings are done.
Francis (01:26):
Let, let's listen to what Barbara Shin has to say
about maybe blazing new trailsand possibly change the paradigm
of farming, especially out hereon the East Coast.
So Barbara, I look at yourvineyards, uh, vineyards around
the world, and I've seen a fewvineyards like this, but most of
the picture postcard vineyardsthat we see from California or
from Europe are very neat rows.
(01:46):
Um, and there's not a lot of,activity besides the vine.
going on here.
I see dandelions, I see clover.
I see grab.
Just, are you guys not payingattention?
What's going on?
Well,
Barbara (01:56):
the first thing that you have to do when you're
walking through an organicvineyard is to literally change
your paradigm of thought as towhat is beauty in a vineyard.
The first thing that we began todo when we changed into an
organic soil practice here wasto treat our vineyard as if it
was a meadow and.
(02:17):
Also, perhaps even forest, sincewe have a permanent crop here.
Grapevines are not torn up, tornout, and planted every year.
This is a permanent crop.
You have to think of your farmas if it was a forest or a
meadow.
Forests and meadows don't needto have any fertilizer applied
to them.
Uh, you don't need to go in andplow a meadow and such in order
(02:39):
to, um, eRate the soil.
They're self-sustaining.
Natural habitat that can feeditself through its soil food
network.
Francis (02:48):
What purposes does it serve to have all of the beads
and the grass and the covercrops that are running.
Not wild because you cut itdown, but they'll leave it all
here rather than take it out.
Barbara (02:56):
Well, the general answer to that is biodiversity.
We have a monoculture of grapesgrowing here.
And let's say for instance,there's a disease that happens
with the vines or a, a insectthat comes in.
If you just have a, a singlecrop that you're planting, the
chances of that disease arepast.
Being just running rampant is,is huge.
(03:17):
So if we can keep some type ofbiodiversity on the floor of the
vineyard, we're providing awildlife habitat for other
animals to come in and habitatthe vineyard and, uh, eat the
clover and do natural compostingfor us, let's put it that way.
It also allows for the differentplants to add their own
nutrients back into the soilwhen we mow them.
(03:38):
And we also provide a beneficialbug habitat where the good bugs
will eat
Francis (03:42):
the bad bugs.
All of these things are, areimportant to the planet and, and
sort of fit with my philosophyof how to be do right by the
planet.
But do they make good or what?
Barbara (03:52):
Well, I believe that it does, and you have to go with
your gut and you need to go withyour heart.
And I think that we've proventhat here at Chin and State
Vineyards.
We have quite a different way offarming than most vineyards out
here on the east coast.
And our wines have proventhemselves over and over again.
I get to a lot of organicvineyards, but you just sort of,
(04:14):
you are blazing new trails andWell, I think the first thing
that became apparent to us isDavidson.
My philosophy when, you know,before we planted the vines, was
to make very, very high qualitywine and to be as organic as
possible.
And our best wine maker friendsand our best manager friends,
and even Cornell University, whowe were speaking with, the
(04:34):
viticultural section of CornellUniversity flat out said to us.
You cannot do both things atonce.
Here on the East Coast, we havetoo much disease pressure.
It's too humid.
You cannot be organic in thisenvironment.
So if you wanna make highquality wines, do that.
You'll be lucky if two to 3% ofthe materials that you use in
your vineyard are organic.
(04:55):
And this year, well, I provedthem wrong.
I was steadfast knowing that Icould do that in the shear.
90% of the materials used in thevineyard were organic.
I
Francis (05:03):
look underneath the wallet and there's, there's
stuff here.
I mean.
there's actual material herewhere you look at a lot of
picture postcard vineyards andyou see just the soil.
Is this just a PLA materialdecay?
Barbara (05:15):
Well, it's interesting when you say you see just the
soil, because when you look at apicture postcard.
Vineyard with that barren stripof scorched earth underneath the
vines.
You're not looking at soil,you're looking at dead matter.
That soil's not alive.
All of the beneficialmicroorganisms in that soil have
been killed, and the soil is sosalty from all the herbicides
and pesticides that have put onit that it cannot even attempt
(05:37):
to sustain any of thatunderground life.
Francis (05:40):
So that'd be dirt in Mississippi soil?
Yes.
You tried to use as many organicpractices as you can.
Yes.
But you also have taught, youand I have talked to grade
length about biodynamicprinciples.
Now.
Can you explain to us whatthat's all about?
Barbara (05:59):
Well, biodynamics is a way of.
Approaching farming in a way,perhaps even approaching your
life.
Biodynamics started out as alifestyle and in 1920s was coll
applied to agriculture by RuSteiner.
And what he was asking farmersto do was to ignore the.
(06:19):
Promises in the silver bullet ofall of these new chemicals that
were being introduced to farmingin the 1920s, such as the
chemical fertilizers andchemical pesticides that allowed
farmers to just follow a recipe,apply all these, um, materials
to their farms, and then go tobed at night and sleep and not
have to worry about disease.
And he was very worried aboutthis because he actually foresaw
the death of the soil and theweakening of our agricultural
(06:42):
products because
Francis (06:43):
of that.
So he, he, he foresaw that whenyou apply chemicals to the soil.
Of necessity, the, in thefollowing years after you
basically sterilize the soil,nothing will grow unless you
apply more chemicals to makethem grow because the chemicals
are calibrating in the soda,
Barbara (06:58):
right?
So you're entering this terriblecycle.
So he was trying to tellfarmers, look at your farm.
And for instance, here we are ina vineyard, and find the closest
ecosystem that you can occurnaturally in nature and treat
your farm like that.
So before, when I was talkingabout, well, we.
Tree out the floor of ourvineyard as if it was a meadow
(07:19):
and our vines as if there weretrees.
That's what we do.
We grow a natural meadow all theway across our vineyard that
does not have to have manmadeuh, fertilizers applied to it in
order for it to sustain itself.
Now, every year we do take acrop off of the vines, so we are
taking nutrients away from ourfarm in the form of grapes.
So we do have to put back down.
(07:40):
Those nutrients, but I put thosenutrients back down with organic
Francis (07:45):
materials.
Well, I saw back at your winery,um, 8 55 gallon barrel of, um,
fish, gut juice, um, that findits way into your winery.
How are you being innovativewith this and, and applying
these principles in new ways?
Well,
Barbara (07:58):
the fish, but juice that you call is called fish
hydro, which is the heads andthe guts and the tails and the
skins that are the byproduct ofa catfish industry in the
northern Mississippi.
So by sustainable practice ofreusing that, waste material.
On our farm for, uh, nitrogenfeeding of the vines.
The catfish industry is notadding to the landfill, and
(08:20):
we're actually gaining anorganic source of nitrogen by
applying that to the soil.
The other thing that I use, uh,for, for potassium for instance,
is seaweed from Canada.
That is, uh, powdered and Ireconstitute that with water and
trip it along the base of thebins, and so I get potassium in
an organic manner.
Francis (08:37):
Well, and you get your own in your own compost.
You have an interesting way ofusing compost in your.
Yeah,
Barbara (08:43):
well back up to a biodynamic practice.
The biggest aspect ofbiodynamics is called manuring,
and I don't really call itmaning too much because you
could just think of a big pileof, you know, countdown.
I use three different types ofcompost here on the farm.
One is a warm castings, theother is a brown compost, which
is, um.
The tree barks and leaves andsuch.
(09:03):
And the other is actually is amanure based compost that is
varied in the ground for a yearand then dug up, and that's a
very high potent ized compost.
Now, when we spread compost onthe ground, we're not spreading
it in order to spread dirt,we're spreading it in order to
introduce the beneficialmicroorganisms that we're
speaking about earlier to thevineyard floor.
And what I do is soil drenches.
(09:25):
Uh, with this, I don't need tospread up tons and tons of dry
compost On our land, I takeabout three pounds of high
quality compost per acre, and Iput that in a very large tea
bag, and that's why thisconcoctions called compost tea,
like a tea that you drink,putting in a large tea bag.
And I warm this compost in.
(09:47):
Warm, warm aerated water forabout 24 hours and the millions
of microorganisms that are alivein this compost start
multiplying by the end of a 24hour period.
I have billions of beneficialmicroorganisms in a that of 50
gallons of warm aerated water,and I can drip that at the base
of each pine.
Francis (10:04):
So you basically, without spreading the compost
itself, you just spread thebeneficial parts of the compost
and liquid.
That's right.
Yes.
Mark (10:11):
Francis a great beginning of the interview there with,
with Barbara Shannon, and one ofthe things that I really hope
is, I really hope there aresome, uh, New York New Jersey
winemakers listening to thisshow because Barbara's got a new
way to do things.
One of the things you're gonnasee are people are gonna learn
from the things that she's doingout in her vineyard.
Francis (10:32):
I visited a, a vineyard recently that I had visited many
years ago.
There's a vineyard in, inPennsylvania called Sandcastle
Winery.
Mm-hmm.
And, and the wine's pretty good.
I mean, I would do thingsdifferently if I were them, but
they had this amazing vineyardland and I tasted the vines
years ago.
Wine.
The wines, the wines years ago,and the grapes off the vine.
I went out and I visited withsomebody there, I was a manager,
(10:52):
a wine vineyard manager manyyears ago, and I stopped down in
Pennsylvania on a motorcycle andwith Jen, and we stopped by.
And the vineyard is beautiful.
It's on these steep slopes, buteverything is dead under the
vines.
Mm-hmm.
It's not, it's, it's a, it's amonoculture.
And I just, I felt whatBarbara's talked about, about
just basically growing a meadowunder the vines.
(11:13):
Mm-hmm.
You don't water a meadow, youdon't fertilize a, a meadow and
it just takes care of itself.
And it's really interesting tolook about how about how we work
with nature as opposed toworking against nature.
Anyway, we'll take a shortbreak.
We'll be right back.
Mark (11:24):
We are talking via a, an interview that Francis did a
little while ago with BarbaraShin of Shin Vineyards and were
actually, Francis went out tothe vineyard and, and did an
interview with her out there.
Francis (11:35):
We've been friends for a long time and what's
interesting is we met Barbaraand David before they opened
their first restaurant.
Now it's a restaurant we did,they did a bunch of other
businesses.
They have, uh, the bed andbreakfast and the winery.
Barbara's an interesting personand she was an artist, right?
Yeah.
So, but here's, listen toBarbara talk about the
relationship between farming andart.
I think you'll, I think you'llfind it interesting.
(11:55):
You had a few informationsbefore this.
You didn't come out of collegeand go to theology school at the
University of California atDavis.
You started as an artist.
But
Barbara (12:04):
I did start as an artist.
But even before that, when I wasin college.
For art.
I was taking a lot of soilscience classes just simply
because I enjoyed it and Iconsidered a career in forestry,
which was a, an entry levelcareer in Ohio where I was, um,
going to school.
I.
And right now I feel like thisis probably the most creative
thing I've ever done in my life.
(12:25):
As a matter of fact, today I wasjust telling some wine drinkers
that I was taking on a littlewalk through the vineyard that I
considered this to be mypainting every single day of my
life.
Francis (12:34):
That's a beautiful thing.
Do you miss be in the city allthe time, late at night, or you
like getting up in the morning,getting on the tractor?
I like getting up in the morningand getting on the tractor.
Mark (12:43):
One of the things that a lot of our listeners, I'm
certain don't know, but, butsome of the people who have
known us for a very, very longtime do know is that our
restaurant used to be a gallery.
Francis (12:53):
Oh yes.
Mark (12:53):
And in, back in the days when it was a gallery, our
opening artist of the restaurantwhen we very first opened was.
Barbara Shin.
That's right.
And she did a, she did a greatpiece in it and she's very, uh,
esoteric, I'll say.
And she did a great selectionand, and it was up with stick
pins and giant, she
Francis (13:13):
did pictures.
It was giant rolls ofphotographic paper that Barbara
exposed in her loft inManhattan.
Mm-hmm.
And then hand washed developingchemicals over.
And it was fascinating.
A little scary, scared some ofour customers.
It
Mark (13:25):
was a little scary.
The name and I'll.
I'll share with the listeners.
The name of her show was calledEat and Die.
Yeah,
Francis (13:33):
we all do it, but I don't know that you wanna
contemplate that while you'reeating dinner, but it was very
popular.
People really like it a lot.
Mark (13:38):
We'll be back with more of this fascinating interview with
Barbara Shin right after thenews.
You're listening to theRestaurant guys
Francis (13:45):
Today's a rather unusual show.
We are, um, talk, we're goingthrough an interview, a series
of interviews that I did with,uh, Barbara Shin, who's one of
the owners of with her husband,David Page of Shin Vineyards and
Shin Bed and Breakfast out onLong Island.
There are two restaurateurs,winemakers, farmers, bed and
breakfast owners, and, uh, twoof the most insightful people I
know.
Uh, and we're speakingspecifically with Barbara today,
(14:07):
uh, about the land of LongIsland and why it
Mark (14:10):
shouldn't be discounted, and Francis spends a little bit
of time in this next segmenttalking to Barbara about the
topography of Long Island and,how it might be a little
different than you expect.
Let's listen.
Francis (14:20):
Okay, so we're coming down off your vineyard and La
Island has this reputation ofbeing a very flat place and
people talk about great wine wascoming from Hillside, but there
does seem to be a quite a bit ofrolling Hillside here.
Well, I like
Barbara (14:33):
to call it little flips of land.
In any farming environment, youalways find little, you know,
micro ecosystems that are evenwithin your own farmland.
And being very flat means thatany subtle change in the
positioning of the land reallymeans that you're affecting the
vines even more because you'renot dealing with shading from
(14:54):
mountains.
Um, or water running throughdown into a valley, which means
that the soil's gonna be toowet.
Just the small little flips ofland really change the sun
exposure of, of the vineyards uphere.
Francis (15:06):
Now I'm looking right toward the base of your land
right at the road, and then wecross the road, and then there's
a hill that goes up and, andthere's a tree line there.
That That's the Long Islandsound.
Barbara (15:17):
Yes.
Which again, just shows you howfragile this environment is.
We're in a maritime environment.
Our soils are very sandy.
The water table's very high, andagain speaks to you as to why.
Being careful what you put onyour farm is so important
because it doesn't end up in ourwater table.
Mark (15:34):
I am sure some of our listeners are a little surprised
to hear Barbara talk about the,the region out there and
exactly, what it's like the, thehills and, and that it rolls a
little bit more than you mightanticipate.
Francis (15:44):
Well, there's the hills and that it rolls, and when I
say there's a breeze that startslike clockwork, you know, you
can feel when we talk about.
Events out there, it, she, youknow, 20 degrees, cooler.
Mm-hmm.
You know, than you might expect.
one of the great things aboutall the great wine regions of
the world is they are near largebodies of water.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, whether it's a river oran ocean or whatever, because
(16:05):
large bodies of water have amitigating effect on the
temperature.
they keep it warmer at night andthey make it cooler during the
day.
Actually, a little bit oftrivia, the in 1945 was the last
time the Long Island sound frozeover.
And when the Long Island soundfroze over.
There was such a bitter coldthrough Long Island that all
grapevines died.
Mark (16:22):
they had to start from scratch,
Francis (16:23):
but the Long Island.
But the Long Island sound keepsit up there.
There's, in, in addition to thetopography of the land, how they
treat their soil and what'sthere mm-hmm.
Is also very interesting andvery different
Mark (16:33):
In this next part of the interview, you and Barbara go
and, and visit some otherplaces.
And, uh, for me this wasprobably the most interesting
part of your whole journey outthere
Francis (16:42):
Even if you don't know a lot about farming, let's
listen to what Barbara has tosay.
Barbara (16:46):
I'm down here.
Leaning very closely down to oursoil underneath the vines.
I'm looking to see how liableour soil is and how much water
it's holding.
And as you can see, as I'mdigging through, I'm all the way
up to my first knuckle and theearth is, is damp, it's moist,
it's uh, grainy.
I'm all the way up to my topknuckle.
Now my fingers are completelyburied and so I don't quite find
(17:08):
that I could keep just diggingwith my hand probably until I
hit my elbow.
Um, you can see the soil as Icrush it in my hand, and it's
holding together.
That's all of the beneficialmicroorganisms that are in that
soil.
Keep it, uh, I don't wanna sayslimy, but they do exude a slime
through these, um, single cellorganisms and that's what keeps
(17:28):
the soil pliable and, and ableto hold moisture.
Well, it always goes up thething crunch on the top, but as
soon as you dig down, you've gotmoist, uh, soil.
Yes.
And it smells like freshlyplowed earth.
It can smell the carbon that'sin the soil, which is so
important for a nutrientexchange between the plant and
the soil.
Francis (17:46):
Okay, now, now we, we've crossed over from your,
we've walked down little ways.
This vineyard that on theyembraced for our modern chemical
farming.
The, the norm?
Well,
Barbara (17:55):
right, well, you can see here is underneath the
vines.
They've used herbicide and Ijust call it scorched earth.
There's a very small strip ofgrass that grows down.
The vineyard grows, but if youmultiply this over the acreage,
they have and see that thisherbicide of strip underneath
the vines is actually largerthan this tiny little strip of
grass that's growing in betweenthese areas of scorched earth.
(18:17):
I would say two thirds of thisvineyard is herbicide all year
long.
It's killing the soil.
The soil will crust over.
You cannot dig into it.
And it's, they say hard as arock.
Well, this dirt is hard.
Hard as a rock and it's dead.
Okay, prove it to me.
Well, all we have to do is benddown.
Yeah.
And when I was digging in, thesoil didn't occur to you to
(18:39):
actually knock on the soil.
No, it didn't.
Okay.
I'm gonna knock on this photoand you can see how hard it is.
It's hard to rock.
Garden are rock.
Can't get into it.
Look, I can't even get my handinto it.
It's, it's, it's dry and it's,
Francis (18:58):
wow.
Yeah.
It's, it's really wild.
You really can't, I mean, I'mtrying to push as hard as I can
and I did break the crush, butall I get, if I get underneath
at oil, I just get dust.
I just get dusted.
Nothing.
There's nothing living in theside of the box and we break
down my head.
That blows away on the wind.
That's true.
And we have
Barbara (19:13):
a real potential bad erosion.
Problem here.
If we do get a heart rate nowwith this soil, is this soil
more likely to erode?
Where our stay put mark, ourstays put because of the natural
metal that we grow other acrossthe vineyard that it, the soil
does not move, it stays intactand just continues to to
prosper.
Full stop.
Francis (19:36):
Okay, so we're not away from your vineyard.
This isn't your property, thisvineyard here.
It is sort of what kept it lookssomething like yours.
I don't know exactly like yours,right behind it.
I don't know.
How many acres is that of, ofdisaster area over there?
What is that?
A marsh
Barbara (19:50):
actually, that's a vineyard that, uh, the owner has
chosen to not take care of, andit's only taken about three
years for the vineyard tocompletely die off and become
overgrown with what, we call thewild olives out here.
Wild olives, actually.
Olives or no?
They're, they're a species thatis related to the altitude, but
they're not producing any fruit.
Francis (20:12):
so you're telling me that three years ago this was a,
was cultivated vineyard then
Barbara (20:16):
this
Francis (20:16):
is a beautiful vineyard.
It was
Barbara (20:17):
one of the nicest vineyards out here on the North
Fork.
And it just goes to show youthat if you don't tend to these
grapes.
Morning, noon and night, 365days a year, the vineyard will
literally disappear.
And here you can see, you can'teven see a grape vine.
They've completely died.
And all we have is scrub brushand then the vineyard posts and
trellis wire is still strong.
Francis (20:37):
Well, and you've also gotta, but look to me to be six
foot tall white tree-like thingsgrowing in just a couple of
years.
I'm sure they're just monstrousweeds.
But the, the amount of chaoshere is, is absolutely
incredible.
And it's, you know, all the moretestaments of the hard work that
wine makers keep to keepopinions.
Yeah.
Mother nature
Barbara (20:52):
corrects herself and she cracks herself quickly.
And I think to look at thisvineyard, it really gives us a
lesson.
Before I was talking aboutgrowing a monoculture.
Mother Nature will get rid ofthat monoculture as quickly as
possible.
And you can see it here in itsextreme form, whereas she has
actually rid herself of thevineyard and is now beginning to
grow a natural indigenous woodsagain.
(21:14):
But look at here in ourvineyard, um, where we were just
a few minutes ago.
There's camma mill, there's,clover growing.
We probably had.
Oh gosh, 60 varieties of, um,broadleaf, natural weeds
growing.
Probably 40 different species ofgrasses.
Mother nature did this herself.
We didn't come in and plantthis, and she, she's always
(21:35):
trying to diversify in order tokeep herself balanced.
So do you think that's one
Francis (21:39):
of the reasons that the first pick do better is because
they're, they're sort of moreacceptable to mother nature?
Barbara (21:45):
Yeah, exactly.
And you know, we're not, we'renot meant to understand all of
this and that sometimes wherebiodynamics comes in
biodynamics, don't try andscientifically explain
everything.
Work with Mother Nature Trustthat what you're doing is eating
in a natural ecosystem thatMother Nature has developed over
centuries and centuries and eonsand hands, and try and work
(22:07):
within that instead of workingagainst her.
Francis (22:11):
I and I see.
Um.
Uh, and I see a very tall, um,very wild place.
And the thing that makes itactually kind of scary and not
just a, an overgrowing part ofmy field is the posts are still
in the ground and the wires arestill in the ground.
Does that make this so, I mean,you couldn't just come in and
recover this vineyard at thispoint, or, or use it fronting
unless you pull out work to pullall that stuff out, right?
Barbara (22:33):
Yeah.
You'd have to pull all of thetrellis system out, uh, and
you'd have to come in and, andpush right through all of this
and cut the trees down and takeback the land and turn it into
farmland again.
Francis (22:44):
Well, it would be hard to push back because it's hard
to pull the TRS out because it'sintertwined with the under and
it's hard to cut the under'causeyou've got TRS everywhere.
It's a real problem.
It's a real problem.
Mark (22:55):
Francis, I saw the pictures that you brought back
of that abandoned vineyard, kindof a abandoned vineyard.
I've never seen anything like itin my life, and I, I just can't,
first of all, in such a shortperiod of time that so much
damage could be done.
It, it just boggles the mind andI.
Not just damage, but naturalgrowth could, could come up.
I mean, I know how much myhedges grow in a year, but you
(23:16):
don't, you don't think aboutthings just, just coming up that
quickly, and there's really noway to go into that vineyard and
tear it all out because it's alltrellised.
Yeah.
You have these big posts inthere with trees growing between
them.
I, I don't see any way otherthan to.
Get a big backhoe.
Yeah.
And, and knock it all out.
I, I don't see any way to saythat.
Francis (23:37):
One of the things that really struck me, it's very
humbling, uh, was when lookingthat abandoned vineyard.
I, I, I have to say in, in my 20some odd years of doing this for
a living, learning about wineand food and where food comes
from, but especially wine andgrapevines.
'cause, you know, permanentgrapevines are a permanent
plant.
As you, of course, you know, butas listeners out there should
know that grapevines are apermanent crop, you know, you
don't move your grapevine fromone year to the other.
(23:58):
But I, I'm, it was so humblingto see.
What happens in such a littletime, just it's, it is a
testament to without your farmerwhat, what your farmer is
working so hard every day tomake sure doesn't happen.
You know, mark, one of theissues that I got to talk with
Barbara about is people oftenthink that people who.
Practice biodynamic agricultureor organic agriculture are sort
(24:19):
of hippies who areanti-technology for being
anti-technology sake.
And that's not the case.
They're trying to distancethemselves from, from eating
chemicals.
Well, there's,
Mark (24:27):
there's an idea that people who are farming
organically or, or formingbiodynamically are backward
thinking.
Mm-hmm.
But when you look at Barbara andyou talk to Barbara and David,
one of the things that yourealize.
Is they're looking back athistory.
Mm-hmm.
But at the same time, they arevery forward thinking.
Francis (24:44):
Let's, let's listen to an example of just that very
exact thing that you're talkingabout.
Okay.
Barbara, this is a verydifferent field here, and I got
your emails.
I'm detailing what exactly is soI can't pretend like I don't
know.
But, um, this is a new plantingand these mines are what, four
inches tall?
Barbara (25:03):
They're about four inches tall and we planted them
a month ago and they're juststarting to put out their first
leaf.
Now these
Francis (25:11):
are
Barbara (25:11):
in perfect, perfect rows.
How does that happen?
Well, it's really interesting.
We plant them with a laserplanter.
Uh, what it is, is acontraction, a carriage that's
hung on the back of a tractor,and the tractor driver can drive
the tractor down a row.
There's two guys on the back ofthis carriage that are planting
the binds.
The carriage is actually what isconnected to the laser that's
(25:33):
sitting at the end of thepotential row.
So what this means is that ifthe tractor driver starts
swerving to the left or theright, the carriage will stay in
perfect alignment with thelaser.
The carriage will fly back andforth and adjust itself in order
to stay in line with the laser,and then you get these perfectly
planted rows.
Francis (25:51):
I think that some people may have a, a
misimpression that people whoare in favor of NIC methods,
more holistic methods ofagriculture are afraid to use
science.
But it seems to me that that's,uh, not the case.
But field leisure director,
Barbara (26:02):
well, we're in a very interesting time in agriculture
for those that tend to heed andpay attention to the times we're
in because we're finding amarriage between science and,
uh, more low impact, sustainablefarming science is actually
helping us find.
When feeds pressure is high,therefore people that you choose
(26:24):
to use conventional, uh, uh,materials may not have to use
them in such great quantities orso often.
It also helps me as asustainable farmer not have to
use them at all.
Be able to perhaps sleep atnight thinking, well, you know,
not getting rain or not gettinghumidity.
I can back off and, and not haveto worry so much and let the
(26:44):
vines grow and perhaps not makea mistake in the application of
Francis (26:47):
the material put in.
We can use science in theservice of observing what's
going on in the vineyard.
Does it help someone who wantsto try and act sustainably as
possible to do that?
Because they know if they canresort to pesticides or
something, they need to, if inthe end they've, they've messed
it up.
Well, you know,
Barbara (27:05):
it's kind of funny that you put it that way because what
science has done is they'veactually helped us come up with
organic organics, whether ornot, so for instance.
What I use right now in thespring is white mineral oil to
get rid of mites because itsmothers the mites and it also
will eradicate any powderingmilk that may have gotten
started up on a microscopiclevel in the vineyard.
So if I use it every seven to 10days, and here it is, white
(27:27):
mineral oil and organicsubstance, IT science has
recently been able to purify andformulate for us still in an
organic form then, and I can usethis with full confidence.
Francis (27:37):
You sprayed, uh, your vineyard with silica?
Silica.
Barbara (27:40):
Oh, this is a really interesting experiment we're
doing in the vineyard.
It's not an experiment foranyone that farms
biodynamically, but it is for mebecause I haven't used it yet.
And of course, whenever you'retrying to be lower impact on
your farm with any materialsthat you use, you always have to
make it customized, particularlyto your farm.
'cause each farm has, it is itsown ecosystem.
Silica.
(28:00):
It's a quart space, silica.
And this is the marriage ofscience and biodynamics.
Again, actually this is a goodexample.
Silica in quartz and getsrespond into a fine pattern, and
you apply it to the leaves.
What it's gonna do is it's gonnarefract the sunlight all
throughout the the growing leafygreen canes of your vine and
will impart more light rightinto that growing region.
(28:23):
There's a little disease calledpowdery mild that, um, we can
get out here on the east end andactually everywhere in the world
that likes the dark shadedcrevices of the leaves and the
canes.
So the theory is if you put thisquartz, uh, dust throughout your
canopy, the light that isrefracted throughout that
canopy, which is the green leafarea in the vine, while it
becomes saturated with light andthe powdery mildew, um, cannot
(28:47):
thrive and prosper.
But now the university just dida study two years ago.
It came out with the, um,observation that, Hmm, pottery
mildew likes to grow in the darkcrevices of the leaves and
canes.
I wonder how we can get morelight into the canopy.
Does anyone have any ideas?
I.
At first I didn't say anythingbecause I'm experimenting with
(29:08):
it and I can come and
Francis (29:09):
find out
Barbara (29:09):
later.
Francis (29:10):
This is something that would be commented by Dynamics,
and you have Monet Times lookingfor a way to achieve this exact
thing.
Is that a fair assessment?
Yes, and I have
Barbara (29:17):
full confidence that hopefully I'll be able to pass
on this information and havebeen successful this year.
God bless you.
Mark (29:26):
Barbara Shin talking about her laser planter.
Francis (29:29):
You know, it, in a way, it's using your intelligence to
be forward thinking and to besimple.
Mm-hmm.
And to do it as simply and aspossible.
One of the reasons I think thisis so often a view that's
disparaged is because we'retrying to do it without
petrochemicals.
There's really no way forsomeone to make money other than
the farmer.
Mm-hmm.
By, by doing this, you can'tmake a farm.
(29:49):
You can't make money on dung.
Okay.
Right.
It comes, you know, it.
That's not it.
Fish
Mark (29:52):
guts.
Very cheap.
Francis (29:53):
Yeah.
Very, very cheap.
So, so, you know, if you inventa chemical and then convince
everybody they need to use yourchemical, well, you can make
money if you have the patent onthat chemical.
So let's be, let's be aware ofwhere the competing science is,
what it's motivated by, and whatBarbara's uh, you know,
dispassionate or passionate, uh,inquiry into this situation is
looking for.
Hey, we'll be back in just amoment.
(30:35):
Hey everybody.
Welcome back.
You're listening to therestaurant guys, mark and
Francis of Stage Left andCatherine Lombardi restaurants.
I enjoyed the interviews withBarbara and David up on their
vineyard.
Um, uh, tremendously.
Mark (30:46):
This was as real an interview as I've ever heard
anywhere on radio, on tv,anywhere.
This is exactly the, theconversation that we would have
sitting in Barbara and David'sliving room.
or walking their vineyard.
But what's in,
Francis (31:00):
even deeper for, us, and I hope this came through in
the interview from ourperspective, is Barbara and
David, you know, walk the walk.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, we've all, we all, youknow, sort of came to these
ideas together.
We came up together in therestaurant business and.
You know, these guys, you know,I'm gonna, the green market,
they're on the farm.
Mark (31:19):
They are the green market.
They are,
Francis (31:20):
yeah.
They're, they don't go to thegreen market.
It's, it's too much between themand the food.
Um, but look, I'm not sayingthat, first of all, it's a
wonderful experience to be ableto go and visit it and see what
she's talking about and be inthat vineyard and walk through
the meadow that is under theirvineyard.
And, and secondly, talk to somepeople that are intelligent,
insightful about it.
And they're not pretentiousabout it, or stuffy about it, or
overly intellectual about it.
(31:41):
This is just what they do.
I think it's unusual for themto, you know, they've had full
page spreads in New YorkMagazine mm-hmm.
But they're not out thereadvertising.
We're on the radio talking aboutit.
They're in the field doing it.
Yep.
And it's just a part of theirlives Anyway, I hope you've
enjoyed the hour, uh, with therestaurant guys and Barbara
Shannon, David, page, homerestaurant.
I'm Francis Shot.
And I'm Mark Pascal.
You're the restaurant guys,central Jersey 1450.
(32:02):
The time is 12 noon.
Good morning, mark.
Morning Francis.
How are you this morning?
I'm very well.
Yesterday we did a greatinterview with David Page out at
Shin Vineyards, uh, who took usthrough the the changing
lifestyle.
Of going from a chef to awinemaker, and today we're gonna
be talking for a little while.
Uh, Francis did anotherinterview during that same trip
with Barbara Shin, who isDavid's wife.
(01:03):
I
Francis (01:03):
think that my interview with Barbara talks more about
the vineyard itself.
Mm-hmm.
And how they, they're reallydoing things that radically
different and we've been to alot of vineyards in a lot of
parts of the world.
Uh, they're,
Mark (01:12):
they're certainly doing things very differently than,
than people on Long Island are,are doing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They've really changed that orhopefully are going to change.
I don't wanna say they'vechanged'cause I don't think that
many people are doing things theway they do, but hopefully
they'll change the paradigm.
Hopefully they'll change the waythings are done.
Francis (01:26):
Let, let's listen to what Barbara Shin has to say
about maybe blazing new trailsand possibly change the paradigm
of farming, especially out hereon the East Coast.
So Barbara, I look at yourvineyards, uh, vineyards around
the world, and I've seen a fewvineyards like this, but most of
the picture postcard vineyardsthat we see from California or
from Europe are very neat rows.
(01:46):
Um, and there's not a lot of,activity besides the vine.
going on here.
I see dandelions, I see clover.
I see grab.
Just, are you guys not payingattention?
What's going on?
Well,
Barbara (01:56):
the first thing that you have to do when you're
walking through an organicvineyard is to literally change
your paradigm of thought as towhat is beauty in a vineyard.
The first thing that we began todo when we changed into an
organic soil practice here wasto treat our vineyard as if it
was a meadow and.
(02:17):
Also, perhaps even forest, sincewe have a permanent crop here.
Grapevines are not torn up, tornout, and planted every year.
This is a permanent crop.
You have to think of your farmas if it was a forest or a
meadow.
Forests and meadows don't needto have any fertilizer applied
to them.
Uh, you don't need to go in andplow a meadow and such in order
(02:39):
to, um, eRate the soil.
They're self-sustaining.
Natural habitat that can feeditself through its soil food
network.
Francis (02:48):
What purposes does it serve to have all of the beads
and the grass and the covercrops that are running.
Not wild because you cut itdown, but they'll leave it all
here rather than take it out.
Barbara (02:56):
Well, the general answer to that is biodiversity.
We have a monoculture of grapesgrowing here.
And let's say for instance,there's a disease that happens
with the vines or a, a insectthat comes in.
If you just have a, a singlecrop that you're planting, the
chances of that disease arepast.
Being just running rampant is,is huge.
(03:17):
So if we can keep some type ofbiodiversity on the floor of the
vineyard, we're providing awildlife habitat for other
animals to come in and habitatthe vineyard and, uh, eat the
clover and do natural compostingfor us, let's put it that way.
It also allows for the differentplants to add their own
nutrients back into the soilwhen we mow them.
(03:38):
And we also provide a beneficialbug habitat where the good bugs
will eat
Francis (03:42):
the bad bugs.
All of these things are, areimportant to the planet and, and
sort of fit with my philosophyof how to be do right by the
planet.
But do they make good or what?
Barbara (03:52):
Well, I believe that it does, and you have to go with
your gut and you need to go withyour heart.
And I think that we've proventhat here at Chin and State
Vineyards.
We have quite a different way offarming than most vineyards out
here on the east coast.
And our wines have proventhemselves over and over again.
I get to a lot of organicvineyards, but you just sort of,
(04:14):
you are blazing new trails andWell, I think the first thing
that became apparent to us isDavidson.
My philosophy when, you know,before we planted the vines, was
to make very, very high qualitywine and to be as organic as
possible.
And our best wine maker friendsand our best manager friends,
and even Cornell University, whowe were speaking with, the
(04:34):
viticultural section of CornellUniversity flat out said to us.
You cannot do both things atonce.
Here on the East Coast, we havetoo much disease pressure.
It's too humid.
You cannot be organic in thisenvironment.
So if you wanna make highquality wines, do that.
You'll be lucky if two to 3% ofthe materials that you use in
your vineyard are organic.
(04:55):
And this year, well, I provedthem wrong.
I was steadfast knowing that Icould do that in the shear.
90% of the materials used in thevineyard were organic.
I
Francis (05:03):
look underneath the wallet and there's, there's
stuff here.
I mean.
there's actual material herewhere you look at a lot of
picture postcard vineyards andyou see just the soil.
Is this just a PLA materialdecay?
Barbara (05:15):
Well, it's interesting when you say you see just the
soil, because when you look at apicture postcard.
Vineyard with that barren stripof scorched earth underneath the
vines.
You're not looking at soil,you're looking at dead matter.
That soil's not alive.
All of the beneficialmicroorganisms in that soil have
been killed, and the soil is sosalty from all the herbicides
and pesticides that have put onit that it cannot even attempt
(05:37):
to sustain any of thatunderground life.
Francis (05:40):
So that'd be dirt in Mississippi soil?
Yes.
You tried to use as many organicpractices as you can.
Yes.
But you also have taught, youand I have talked to grade
length about biodynamicprinciples.
Now.
Can you explain to us whatthat's all about?
Barbara (05:59):
Well, biodynamics is a way of.
Approaching farming in a way,perhaps even approaching your
life.
Biodynamics started out as alifestyle and in 1920s was coll
applied to agriculture by RuSteiner.
And what he was asking farmersto do was to ignore the.
(06:19):
Promises in the silver bullet ofall of these new chemicals that
were being introduced to farmingin the 1920s, such as the
chemical fertilizers andchemical pesticides that allowed
farmers to just follow a recipe,apply all these, um, materials
to their farms, and then go tobed at night and sleep and not
have to worry about disease.
And he was very worried aboutthis because he actually foresaw
the death of the soil and theweakening of our agricultural
(06:42):
products because
Francis (06:43):
of that.
So he, he, he foresaw that whenyou apply chemicals to the soil.
Of necessity, the, in thefollowing years after you
basically sterilize the soil,nothing will grow unless you
apply more chemicals to makethem grow because the chemicals
are calibrating in the soda,
Barbara (06:58):
right?
So you're entering this terriblecycle.
So he was trying to tellfarmers, look at your farm.
And for instance, here we are ina vineyard, and find the closest
ecosystem that you can occurnaturally in nature and treat
your farm like that.
So before, when I was talkingabout, well, we.
Tree out the floor of ourvineyard as if it was a meadow
(07:19):
and our vines as if there weretrees.
That's what we do.
We grow a natural meadow all theway across our vineyard that
does not have to have manmadeuh, fertilizers applied to it in
order for it to sustain itself.
Now, every year we do take acrop off of the vines, so we are
taking nutrients away from ourfarm in the form of grapes.
So we do have to put back down.
(07:40):
Those nutrients, but I put thosenutrients back down with organic
Francis (07:45):
materials.
Well, I saw back at your winery,um, 8 55 gallon barrel of, um,
fish, gut juice, um, that findits way into your winery.
How are you being innovativewith this and, and applying
these principles in new ways?
Well,
Barbara (07:58):
the fish, but juice that you call is called fish
hydro, which is the heads andthe guts and the tails and the
skins that are the byproduct ofa catfish industry in the
northern Mississippi.
So by sustainable practice ofreusing that, waste material.
On our farm for, uh, nitrogenfeeding of the vines.
The catfish industry is notadding to the landfill, and
(08:20):
we're actually gaining anorganic source of nitrogen by
applying that to the soil.
The other thing that I use, uh,for, for potassium for instance,
is seaweed from Canada.
That is, uh, powdered and Ireconstitute that with water and
trip it along the base of thebins, and so I get potassium in
an organic manner.
Francis (08:37):
Well, and you get your own in your own compost.
You have an interesting way ofusing compost in your.
Yeah,
Barbara (08:43):
well back up to a biodynamic practice.
The biggest aspect ofbiodynamics is called manuring,
and I don't really call itmaning too much because you
could just think of a big pileof, you know, countdown.
I use three different types ofcompost here on the farm.
One is a warm castings, theother is a brown compost, which
is, um.
The tree barks and leaves andsuch.
(09:03):
And the other is actually is amanure based compost that is
varied in the ground for a yearand then dug up, and that's a
very high potent ized compost.
Now, when we spread compost onthe ground, we're not spreading
it in order to spread dirt,we're spreading it in order to
introduce the beneficialmicroorganisms that we're
speaking about earlier to thevineyard floor.
And what I do is soil drenches.
(09:25):
Uh, with this, I don't need tospread up tons and tons of dry
compost On our land, I takeabout three pounds of high
quality compost per acre, and Iput that in a very large tea
bag, and that's why thisconcoctions called compost tea,
like a tea that you drink,putting in a large tea bag.
And I warm this compost in.
(09:47):
Warm, warm aerated water forabout 24 hours and the millions
of microorganisms that are alivein this compost start
multiplying by the end of a 24hour period.
I have billions of beneficialmicroorganisms in a that of 50
gallons of warm aerated water,and I can drip that at the base
of each pine.
Francis (10:04):
So you basically, without spreading the compost
itself, you just spread thebeneficial parts of the compost
and liquid.
That's right.
Yes.
Mark (10:11):
Francis a great beginning of the interview there with,
with Barbara Shannon, and one ofthe things that I really hope
is, I really hope there aresome, uh, New York New Jersey
winemakers listening to thisshow because Barbara's got a new
way to do things.
One of the things you're gonnasee are people are gonna learn
from the things that she's doingout in her vineyard.
Francis (10:32):
I visited a, a vineyard recently that I had visited many
years ago.
There's a vineyard in, inPennsylvania called Sandcastle
Winery.
Mm-hmm.
And, and the wine's pretty good.
I mean, I would do thingsdifferently if I were them, but
they had this amazing vineyardland and I tasted the vines
years ago.
Wine.
The wines, the wines years ago,and the grapes off the vine.
I went out and I visited withsomebody there, I was a manager,
(10:52):
a wine vineyard manager manyyears ago, and I stopped down in
Pennsylvania on a motorcycle andwith Jen, and we stopped by.
And the vineyard is beautiful.
It's on these steep slopes, buteverything is dead under the
vines.
Mm-hmm.
It's not, it's, it's a, it's amonoculture.
And I just, I felt whatBarbara's talked about, about
just basically growing a meadowunder the vines.
(11:13):
Mm-hmm.
You don't water a meadow, youdon't fertilize a, a meadow and
it just takes care of itself.
And it's really interesting tolook about how about how we work
with nature as opposed toworking against nature.
Anyway, we'll take a shortbreak.
We'll be right back.
Mark (11:24):
We are talking via a, an interview that Francis did a
little while ago with BarbaraShin of Shin Vineyards and were
actually, Francis went out tothe vineyard and, and did an
interview with her out there.
Francis (11:35):
We've been friends for a long time and what's
interesting is we met Barbaraand David before they opened
their first restaurant.
Now it's a restaurant we did,they did a bunch of other
businesses.
They have, uh, the bed andbreakfast and the winery.
Barbara's an interesting personand she was an artist, right?
Yeah.
So, but here's, listen toBarbara talk about the
relationship between farming andart.
I think you'll, I think you'llfind it interesting.
(11:55):
You had a few informationsbefore this.
You didn't come out of collegeand go to theology school at the
University of California atDavis.
You started as an artist.
But
Barbara (12:04):
I did start as an artist.
But even before that, when I wasin college.
For art.
I was taking a lot of soilscience classes just simply
because I enjoyed it and Iconsidered a career in forestry,
which was a, an entry levelcareer in Ohio where I was, um,
going to school.
I.
And right now I feel like thisis probably the most creative
thing I've ever done in my life.
(12:25):
As a matter of fact, today I wasjust telling some wine drinkers
that I was taking on a littlewalk through the vineyard that I
considered this to be mypainting every single day of my
life.
Francis (12:34):
That's a beautiful thing.
Do you miss be in the city allthe time, late at night, or you
like getting up in the morning,getting on the tractor?
I like getting up in the morningand getting on the tractor.
Mark (12:43):
One of the things that a lot of our listeners, I'm
certain don't know, but, butsome of the people who have
known us for a very, very longtime do know is that our
restaurant used to be a gallery.
Francis (12:53):
Oh yes.
Mark (12:53):
And in, back in the days when it was a gallery, our
opening artist of the restaurantwhen we very first opened was.
Barbara Shin.
That's right.
And she did a, she did a greatpiece in it and she's very, uh,
esoteric, I'll say.
And she did a great selectionand, and it was up with stick
pins and giant, she
Francis (13:13):
did pictures.
It was giant rolls ofphotographic paper that Barbara
exposed in her loft inManhattan.
Mm-hmm.
And then hand washed developingchemicals over.
And it was fascinating.
A little scary, scared some ofour customers.
It
Mark (13:25):
was a little scary.
The name and I'll.
I'll share with the listeners.
The name of her show was calledEat and Die.
Yeah,
Francis (13:33):
we all do it, but I don't know that you wanna
contemplate that while you'reeating dinner, but it was very
popular.
People really like it a lot.
Mark (13:38):
We'll be back with more of this fascinating interview with
Barbara Shin right after thenews.
You're listening to theRestaurant guys
Francis (13:45):
Today's a rather unusual show.
We are, um, talk, we're goingthrough an interview, a series
of interviews that I did with,uh, Barbara Shin, who's one of
the owners of with her husband,David Page of Shin Vineyards and
Shin Bed and Breakfast out onLong Island.
There are two restaurateurs,winemakers, farmers, bed and
breakfast owners, and, uh, twoof the most insightful people I
know.
Uh, and we're speakingspecifically with Barbara today,
(14:07):
uh, about the land of LongIsland and why it
Mark (14:10):
shouldn't be discounted, and Francis spends a little bit
of time in this next segmenttalking to Barbara about the
topography of Long Island and,how it might be a little
different than you expect.
Let's listen.
Francis (14:20):
Okay, so we're coming down off your vineyard and La
Island has this reputation ofbeing a very flat place and
people talk about great wine wascoming from Hillside, but there
does seem to be a quite a bit ofrolling Hillside here.
Well, I like
Barbara (14:33):
to call it little flips of land.
In any farming environment, youalways find little, you know,
micro ecosystems that are evenwithin your own farmland.
And being very flat means thatany subtle change in the
positioning of the land reallymeans that you're affecting the
vines even more because you'renot dealing with shading from
(14:54):
mountains.
Um, or water running throughdown into a valley, which means
that the soil's gonna be toowet.
Just the small little flips ofland really change the sun
exposure of, of the vineyards uphere.
Francis (15:06):
Now I'm looking right toward the base of your land
right at the road, and then wecross the road, and then there's
a hill that goes up and, andthere's a tree line there.
That That's the Long Islandsound.
Barbara (15:17):
Yes.
Which again, just shows you howfragile this environment is.
We're in a maritime environment.
Our soils are very sandy.
The water table's very high, andagain speaks to you as to why.
Being careful what you put onyour farm is so important
because it doesn't end up in ourwater table.
Mark (15:34):
I am sure some of our listeners are a little surprised
to hear Barbara talk about the,the region out there and
exactly, what it's like the, thehills and, and that it rolls a
little bit more than you mightanticipate.
Francis (15:44):
Well, there's the hills and that it rolls, and when I
say there's a breeze that startslike clockwork, you know, you
can feel when we talk about.
Events out there, it, she, youknow, 20 degrees, cooler.
Mm-hmm.
You know, than you might expect.
one of the great things aboutall the great wine regions of
the world is they are near largebodies of water.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, whether it's a river oran ocean or whatever, because
(16:05):
large bodies of water have amitigating effect on the
temperature.
they keep it warmer at night andthey make it cooler during the
day.
Actually, a little bit oftrivia, the in 1945 was the last
time the Long Island sound frozeover.
And when the Long Island soundfroze over.
There was such a bitter coldthrough Long Island that all
grapevines died.
Mark (16:22):
they had to start from scratch,
Francis (16:23):
but the Long Island.
But the Long Island sound keepsit up there.
There's, in, in addition to thetopography of the land, how they
treat their soil and what'sthere mm-hmm.
Is also very interesting andvery different
Mark (16:33):
In this next part of the interview, you and Barbara go
and, and visit some otherplaces.
And, uh, for me this wasprobably the most interesting
part of your whole journey outthere
Francis (16:42):
Even if you don't know a lot about farming, let's
listen to what Barbara has tosay.
Barbara (16:46):
I'm down here.
Leaning very closely down to oursoil underneath the vines.
I'm looking to see how liableour soil is and how much water
it's holding.
And as you can see, as I'mdigging through, I'm all the way
up to my first knuckle and theearth is, is damp, it's moist,
it's uh, grainy.
I'm all the way up to my topknuckle.
Now my fingers are completelyburied and so I don't quite find
(17:08):
that I could keep just diggingwith my hand probably until I
hit my elbow.
Um, you can see the soil as Icrush it in my hand, and it's
holding together.
That's all of the beneficialmicroorganisms that are in that
soil.
Keep it, uh, I don't wanna sayslimy, but they do exude a slime
through these, um, single cellorganisms and that's what keeps
(17:28):
the soil pliable and, and ableto hold moisture.
Well, it always goes up thething crunch on the top, but as
soon as you dig down, you've gotmoist, uh, soil.
Yes.
And it smells like freshlyplowed earth.
It can smell the carbon that'sin the soil, which is so
important for a nutrientexchange between the plant and
the soil.
Francis (17:46):
Okay, now, now we, we've crossed over from your,
we've walked down little ways.
This vineyard that on theyembraced for our modern chemical
farming.
The, the norm?
Well,
Barbara (17:55):
right, well, you can see here is underneath the
vines.
They've used herbicide and Ijust call it scorched earth.
There's a very small strip ofgrass that grows down.
The vineyard grows, but if youmultiply this over the acreage,
they have and see that thisherbicide of strip underneath
the vines is actually largerthan this tiny little strip of
grass that's growing in betweenthese areas of scorched earth.
(18:17):
I would say two thirds of thisvineyard is herbicide all year
long.
It's killing the soil.
The soil will crust over.
You cannot dig into it.
And it's, they say hard as arock.
Well, this dirt is hard.
Hard as a rock and it's dead.
Okay, prove it to me.
Well, all we have to do is benddown.
Yeah.
And when I was digging in, thesoil didn't occur to you to
(18:39):
actually knock on the soil.
No, it didn't.
Okay.
I'm gonna knock on this photoand you can see how hard it is.
It's hard to rock.
Garden are rock.
Can't get into it.
Look, I can't even get my handinto it.
It's, it's, it's dry and it's,
Francis (18:58):
wow.
Yeah.
It's, it's really wild.
You really can't, I mean, I'mtrying to push as hard as I can
and I did break the crush, butall I get, if I get underneath
at oil, I just get dust.
I just get dusted.
Nothing.
There's nothing living in theside of the box and we break
down my head.
That blows away on the wind.
That's true.
And we have
Barbara (19:13):
a real potential bad erosion.
Problem here.
If we do get a heart rate nowwith this soil, is this soil
more likely to erode?
Where our stay put mark, ourstays put because of the natural
metal that we grow other acrossthe vineyard that it, the soil
does not move, it stays intactand just continues to to
prosper.
Full stop.
Francis (19:36):
Okay, so we're not away from your vineyard.
This isn't your property, thisvineyard here.
It is sort of what kept it lookssomething like yours.
I don't know exactly like yours,right behind it.
I don't know.
How many acres is that of, ofdisaster area over there?
What is that?
A marsh
Barbara (19:50):
actually, that's a vineyard that, uh, the owner has
chosen to not take care of, andit's only taken about three
years for the vineyard tocompletely die off and become
overgrown with what, we call thewild olives out here.
Wild olives, actually.
Olives or no?
They're, they're a species thatis related to the altitude, but
they're not producing any fruit.
Francis (20:12):
so you're telling me that three years ago this was a,
was cultivated vineyard then
Barbara (20:16):
this
Francis (20:16):
is a beautiful vineyard.
It was
Barbara (20:17):
one of the nicest vineyards out here on the North
Fork.
And it just goes to show youthat if you don't tend to these
grapes.
Morning, noon and night, 365days a year, the vineyard will
literally disappear.
And here you can see, you can'teven see a grape vine.
They've completely died.
And all we have is scrub brushand then the vineyard posts and
trellis wire is still strong.
Francis (20:37):
Well, and you've also gotta, but look to me to be six
foot tall white tree-like thingsgrowing in just a couple of
years.
I'm sure they're just monstrousweeds.
But the, the amount of chaoshere is, is absolutely
incredible.
And it's, you know, all the moretestaments of the hard work that
wine makers keep to keepopinions.
Yeah.
Mother nature
Barbara (20:52):
corrects herself and she cracks herself quickly.
And I think to look at thisvineyard, it really gives us a
lesson.
Before I was talking aboutgrowing a monoculture.
Mother Nature will get rid ofthat monoculture as quickly as
possible.
And you can see it here in itsextreme form, whereas she has
actually rid herself of thevineyard and is now beginning to
grow a natural indigenous woodsagain.
(21:14):
But look at here in ourvineyard, um, where we were just
a few minutes ago.
There's camma mill, there's,clover growing.
We probably had.
Oh gosh, 60 varieties of, um,broadleaf, natural weeds
growing.
Probably 40 different species ofgrasses.
Mother nature did this herself.
We didn't come in and plantthis, and she, she's always
(21:35):
trying to diversify in order tokeep herself balanced.
So do you think that's one
Francis (21:39):
of the reasons that the first pick do better is because
they're, they're sort of moreacceptable to mother nature?
Barbara (21:45):
Yeah, exactly.
And you know, we're not, we'renot meant to understand all of
this and that sometimes wherebiodynamics comes in
biodynamics, don't try andscientifically explain
everything.
Work with Mother Nature Trustthat what you're doing is eating
in a natural ecosystem thatMother Nature has developed over
centuries and centuries and eonsand hands, and try and work
(22:07):
within that instead of workingagainst her.
Francis (22:11):
I and I see.
Um.
Uh, and I see a very tall, um,very wild place.
And the thing that makes itactually kind of scary and not
just a, an overgrowing part ofmy field is the posts are still
in the ground and the wires arestill in the ground.
Does that make this so, I mean,you couldn't just come in and
recover this vineyard at thispoint, or, or use it fronting
unless you pull out work to pullall that stuff out, right?
Barbara (22:33):
Yeah.
You'd have to pull all of thetrellis system out, uh, and
you'd have to come in and, andpush right through all of this
and cut the trees down and takeback the land and turn it into
farmland again.
Francis (22:44):
Well, it would be hard to push back because it's hard
to pull the TRS out because it'sintertwined with the under and
it's hard to cut the under'causeyou've got TRS everywhere.
It's a real problem.
It's a real problem.
Mark (22:55):
Francis, I saw the pictures that you brought back
of that abandoned vineyard, kindof a abandoned vineyard.
I've never seen anything like itin my life, and I, I just can't,
first of all, in such a shortperiod of time that so much
damage could be done.
It, it just boggles the mind andI.
Not just damage, but naturalgrowth could, could come up.
I mean, I know how much myhedges grow in a year, but you
(23:16):
don't, you don't think aboutthings just, just coming up that
quickly, and there's really noway to go into that vineyard and
tear it all out because it's alltrellised.
Yeah.
You have these big posts inthere with trees growing between
them.
I, I don't see any way otherthan to.
Get a big backhoe.
Yeah.
And, and knock it all out.
I, I don't see any way to saythat.
Francis (23:37):
One of the things that really struck me, it's very
humbling, uh, was when lookingthat abandoned vineyard.
I, I, I have to say in, in my 20some odd years of doing this for
a living, learning about wineand food and where food comes
from, but especially wine andgrapevines.
'cause, you know, permanentgrapevines are a permanent
plant.
As you, of course, you know, butas listeners out there should
know that grapevines are apermanent crop, you know, you
don't move your grapevine fromone year to the other.
(23:58):
But I, I'm, it was so humblingto see.
What happens in such a littletime, just it's, it is a
testament to without your farmerwhat, what your farmer is
working so hard every day tomake sure doesn't happen.
You know, mark, one of theissues that I got to talk with
Barbara about is people oftenthink that people who.
Practice biodynamic agricultureor organic agriculture are sort
(24:19):
of hippies who areanti-technology for being
anti-technology sake.
And that's not the case.
They're trying to distancethemselves from, from eating
chemicals.
Well, there's,
Mark (24:27):
there's an idea that people who are farming
organically or, or formingbiodynamically are backward
thinking.
Mm-hmm.
But when you look at Barbara andyou talk to Barbara and David,
one of the things that yourealize.
Is they're looking back athistory.
Mm-hmm.
But at the same time, they arevery forward thinking.
Francis (24:44):
Let's, let's listen to an example of just that very
exact thing that you're talkingabout.
Okay.
Barbara, this is a verydifferent field here, and I got
your emails.
I'm detailing what exactly is soI can't pretend like I don't
know.
But, um, this is a new plantingand these mines are what, four
inches tall?
Barbara (25:03):
They're about four inches tall and we planted them
a month ago and they're juststarting to put out their first
leaf.
Now these
Francis (25:11):
are
Barbara (25:11):
in perfect, perfect rows.
How does that happen?
Well, it's really interesting.
We plant them with a laserplanter.
Uh, what it is, is acontraction, a carriage that's
hung on the back of a tractor,and the tractor driver can drive
the tractor down a row.
There's two guys on the back ofthis carriage that are planting
the binds.
The carriage is actually what isconnected to the laser that's
(25:33):
sitting at the end of thepotential row.
So what this means is that ifthe tractor driver starts
swerving to the left or theright, the carriage will stay in
perfect alignment with thelaser.
The carriage will fly back andforth and adjust itself in order
to stay in line with the laser,and then you get these perfectly
planted rows.
Francis (25:51):
I think that some people may have a, a
misimpression that people whoare in favor of NIC methods,
more holistic methods ofagriculture are afraid to use
science.
But it seems to me that that's,uh, not the case.
But field leisure director,
Barbara (26:02):
well, we're in a very interesting time in agriculture
for those that tend to heed andpay attention to the times we're
in because we're finding amarriage between science and,
uh, more low impact, sustainablefarming science is actually
helping us find.
When feeds pressure is high,therefore people that you choose
(26:24):
to use conventional, uh, uh,materials may not have to use
them in such great quantities orso often.
It also helps me as asustainable farmer not have to
use them at all.
Be able to perhaps sleep atnight thinking, well, you know,
not getting rain or not gettinghumidity.
I can back off and, and not haveto worry so much and let the
(26:44):
vines grow and perhaps not makea mistake in the application of
Francis (26:47):
the material put in.
We can use science in theservice of observing what's
going on in the vineyard.
Does it help someone who wantsto try and act sustainably as
possible to do that?
Because they know if they canresort to pesticides or
something, they need to, if inthe end they've, they've messed
it up.
Well, you know,
Barbara (27:05):
it's kind of funny that you put it that way because what
science has done is they'veactually helped us come up with
organic organics, whether ornot, so for instance.
What I use right now in thespring is white mineral oil to
get rid of mites because itsmothers the mites and it also
will eradicate any powderingmilk that may have gotten
started up on a microscopiclevel in the vineyard.
So if I use it every seven to 10days, and here it is, white
(27:27):
mineral oil and organicsubstance, IT science has
recently been able to purify andformulate for us still in an
organic form then, and I can usethis with full confidence.
Francis (27:37):
You sprayed, uh, your vineyard with silica?
Silica.
Barbara (27:40):
Oh, this is a really interesting experiment we're
doing in the vineyard.
It's not an experiment foranyone that farms
biodynamically, but it is for mebecause I haven't used it yet.
And of course, whenever you'retrying to be lower impact on
your farm with any materialsthat you use, you always have to
make it customized, particularlyto your farm.
'cause each farm has, it is itsown ecosystem.
Silica.
(28:00):
It's a quart space, silica.
And this is the marriage ofscience and biodynamics.
Again, actually this is a goodexample.
Silica in quartz and getsrespond into a fine pattern, and
you apply it to the leaves.
What it's gonna do is it's gonnarefract the sunlight all
throughout the the growing leafygreen canes of your vine and
will impart more light rightinto that growing region.
(28:23):
There's a little disease calledpowdery mild that, um, we can
get out here on the east end andactually everywhere in the world
that likes the dark shadedcrevices of the leaves and the
canes.
So the theory is if you put thisquartz, uh, dust throughout your
canopy, the light that isrefracted throughout that
canopy, which is the green leafarea in the vine, while it
becomes saturated with light andthe powdery mildew, um, cannot
(28:47):
thrive and prosper.
But now the university just dida study two years ago.
It came out with the, um,observation that, Hmm, pottery
mildew likes to grow in the darkcrevices of the leaves and
canes.
I wonder how we can get morelight into the canopy.
Does anyone have any ideas?
I.
At first I didn't say anythingbecause I'm experimenting with
(29:08):
it and I can come and
Francis (29:09):
find out
Barbara (29:09):
later.
Francis (29:10):
This is something that would be commented by Dynamics,
and you have Monet Times lookingfor a way to achieve this exact
thing.
Is that a fair assessment?
Yes, and I have
Barbara (29:17):
full confidence that hopefully I'll be able to pass
on this information and havebeen successful this year.
God bless you.
Mark (29:26):
Barbara Shin talking about her laser planter.
Francis (29:29):
You know, it, in a way, it's using your intelligence to
be forward thinking and to besimple.
Mm-hmm.
And to do it as simply and aspossible.
One of the reasons I think thisis so often a view that's
disparaged is because we'retrying to do it without
petrochemicals.
There's really no way forsomeone to make money other than
the farmer.
Mm-hmm.
By, by doing this, you can'tmake a farm.
(29:49):
You can't make money on dung.
Okay.
Right.
It comes, you know, it.
That's not it.
Fish
Mark (29:52):
guts.
Very cheap.
Francis (29:53):
Yeah.
Very, very cheap.
So, so, you know, if you inventa chemical and then convince
everybody they need to use yourchemical, well, you can make
money if you have the patent onthat chemical.
So let's be, let's be aware ofwhere the competing science is,
what it's motivated by, and whatBarbara's uh, you know,
dispassionate or passionate, uh,inquiry into this situation is
looking for.
Hey, we'll be back in just amoment.
(30:35):
Hey everybody.
Welcome back.
You're listening to therestaurant guys, mark and
Francis of Stage Left andCatherine Lombardi restaurants.
I enjoyed the interviews withBarbara and David up on their
vineyard.
Um, uh, tremendously.
Mark (30:46):
This was as real an interview as I've ever heard
anywhere on radio, on tv,anywhere.
This is exactly the, theconversation that we would have
sitting in Barbara and David'sliving room.
or walking their vineyard.
But what's in,
Francis (31:00):
even deeper for, us, and I hope this came through in
the interview from ourperspective, is Barbara and
David, you know, walk the walk.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, we've all, we all, youknow, sort of came to these
ideas together.
We came up together in therestaurant business and.
You know, these guys, you know,I'm gonna, the green market,
they're on the farm.
Mark (31:19):
They are the green market.
They are,
Francis (31:20):
yeah.
They're, they don't go to thegreen market.
It's, it's too much between themand the food.
Um, but look, I'm not sayingthat, first of all, it's a
wonderful experience to be ableto go and visit it and see what
she's talking about and be inthat vineyard and walk through
the meadow that is under theirvineyard.
And, and secondly, talk to somepeople that are intelligent,
insightful about it.
And they're not pretentiousabout it, or stuffy about it, or
overly intellectual about it.
(31:41):
This is just what they do.
I think it's unusual for themto, you know, they've had full
page spreads in New YorkMagazine mm-hmm.
But they're not out thereadvertising.
We're on the radio talking aboutit.
They're in the field doing it.
Yep.
And it's just a part of theirlives Anyway, I hope you've
enjoyed the hour, uh, with therestaurant guys and Barbara
Shannon, David, page, homerestaurant.
I'm Francis Shot.
And I'm Mark Pascal.
You're the restaurant guys,central Jersey 1450.
(32:02):
The time is 12 noon.
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