June 2, 2025 • 30 mins
This is a BONUS! episode relating to the Belmont Stakes 2025
The ConversationThe Restaurant Guys sit down with King Cocktail Dale DeGroff and Peter Thomas Fornatale of In the Money Players’ Podcast to talk about horse racing and the cocktails that accompany it. Pete offers his Win, Place and Show for the upcoming Belmont Stakes 2025. Listen and you could wind up in the money.
The Inside Track The Guys are horse racing fans and hosted Dale for his performance of “Gamblers, Whisky and Flying Horses.” They recently met Pete and plan to catch up with him at the track in Saratoga this summer. They all have had fun times with Dale including one night when Dale had to give the bartenders at a new NYC hotspot a cocktail recipe.
Pete: You're writing out the recipe on the back of a napkin to send to the bartenders to go and make us around. To this day still, it was the most baller move I've ever seen to be in the hot new restaurant writing out the recipe. This is what we'd like to drink, thank you very much.
Francis: I wanna make a public service announcement to all dining customers. If you are not Dale Degroff, don't do that.
Dale: And by the way, this explains why nobody knows where these famous drinks came from with a few minor exceptions because they wrote 'em down on a cocktail napkin and stuck them in their pocket. Later on in the evening they pulled it out, blew their nose on it and threw it away.
Dale DeGroff & Peter Thomas Fornatale on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2025
Info
Pete’s podcast
https://inthemoneypodcast.com/category/players-podcast/
Pete’s book
Brooklyn Spirits: Craft Distilling and Cocktails from the World's Hippest Borough
By Peter Thomas Fornatale & Chris Wertz
Chris MacMillan mint julep video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJV-O1e10z8&t=358s
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark (00:11):
Hello everybody and welcome.
You are listening to theRestaurant Guys.
I'm Mark Pascal and I'm herewith Francis Shot.
Together we own stage left incapital Lombardi, restaurants in
New Brunswick, New Jersey.
We're here to bring you theinside track on food, wine, and
the finer things in life.
Francis (00:25):
Hello everybody.
Today you are listening to aspecial bonus episode of the
Restaurant Guys.
Uh, in honor of the Belmontsteaks, which is coming up later
this week.
We have invited in some cocktailpeople and some pony people.
We have Dale DeGraff, who's theking of the cocktail, if he
needs no introduction and if youdon't know who he is.
Listen to an old episode orGoogle the man.
He is the king of the cocktail.
If
Mark (00:44):
you don't know who he is, you're listening to the wrong
show.
Francis (00:45):
Yeah, you haven't listened.
Welcome to your First RestaurantGuys radio show.
We also have Pete Fortal, andPete has a foot in both the
world of Ponies and the World ofCocktails.
He hosts the award-winning inthe Money Players Podcast, which
offers analysis and engagingcommentary on the world of.
Thoroughbred racing, but notjust in the horses.
Peter co-authored BrooklynSpirits Craft Distilling and
Cocktails from the World's Hipsborough.
(01:07):
He's been known to get behindthe stick himself, and we're
happy to have both of these guyson the show with us for a
special bonus episode of theRestaurant.
Guys.
Gentlemen, welcome to the show.
Dale (01:15):
Hi guys.
Hello.
Hey, did you hear that Pete saidInside track.
Inside Track,
Francis (01:21):
works for ponies.
so Dale, you are a, a horseyaficionado.
You have put on shows thatcombine cocktails and, music and
ponies that we've hosted somehere.
And, uh, when we were talking toyou about doing this, we thought
it, this bears a special, uh,restaurant guys episode.
So I think we wanna start thepodcast by talking about.
(01:43):
Cocktails that are specific tosporting events, and I guess
specifically there are ponyevents that call that are
traditional cocktails that areassociated with them.
That's kind of an interestingsubset of traditional cocktails.
Can you talk to us about that tostart a Sure,
Dale (01:58):
sure.
Well, obviously Mele, that'sthe.
The oldest and also the MintJulip, was the first American
cockle to be exported to London,where at Oxford University there
was actually a mid julip day.
Uh, but mid Julip was incrediblyimportant in the development of
the relationship betweenAmerican whiskey and horse
racing.
Uh, even though the mid first,mid may have been, uh, peach
(02:21):
brandy.
and then of course, uh, thesecond leg of the triple crown
has the black-eyed Susan, wellwait.
Francis (02:27):
We gonna talk about the Mint julip, that's Kentucky
Derby.
Mark (02:29):
Yeah.
when did the Mint, Julip and theDerby Connect?
When did those two thingshappen?
Dale (02:33):
Uh, do you know Pete?
Mark (02:35):
Yeah, I've, I've,
Pete (02:36):
I have a, a whole blurb about it in, uh, the, the
cocktail book I wrote, which iscalled Brooklyn Spirits.
But of course, you know, I wrotethat 10 years ago.
So, so asking you to remember isa, is a bit of a, is a bit of a
lift here, but I think it wasnot that far from, from the
beginning of the event.
Right.
Just timing wise, in terms ofcocktails in American culture,
(02:57):
late 19th century, we're talkingright.
Francis (03:00):
Yes, but how does the drink?
And I just think it's may, maybeyou guys don't know, but I think
it's interesting to note thatwhen you think of the Kentucky
Derby, you think of Mint juleps,you think of the specific
glassware, the specific cup.
It's a bourbon thing and it's,most people, it's many.
For many people, it's the onlymint julip they have all year.
And you know, if you're, unlessyou're in New Orleans, and I
(03:20):
love mint jokes in thesummertime, but you know, mint
has just come up and you just.
You think of the hats.
You think of the outfits, youthink of those, uh, pewter cups
and you know, it's inextricablyidentified with the Kentucky
Derby is the mint Julep.
Mark (03:33):
I, I thought you were gonna say, and you're off to the
race and you're off.
That's what I thought
Pete (03:37):
before I met Dale.
Before I met Dale, I thought themint julep was obnoxious thing
that tasted like a mixture ofweak whiskey and toothpaste.
Yeah.
But then taking a class fromDale at some point in the
nineties.
He made a version of a julipusing, I think it was a bottled
in bond whiskey, so a little bitstronger, didn't get as diluted
(04:00):
and using, instead of justsyrup, muddling a little bit of
orange and a little bit ofpineapple along with the mint.
I have been making that versionof the drink dale at the Derby
ever since, and I always raisemy grandfather's pewter jupa tin
to you when I do it.
Dale (04:18):
I, I, I, I've been messing with the drink for years.
I created the whiskey smash.
Number two in re in in honor andtradition, uh, to the tradition
of Jerry Thomas who had thewhiskey smash.
Uh, but it was, his whiskeysmash was just a mint julip on
a, in a short class.
You know, it sold all around thecity of New York, probably more
mint JUULs was sold in New YorkCity than anywhere else in the
(04:40):
world.
And the.
Idea of, of the short glass withmint and sugar and bourbon.
Eh, so I put the lemon in alittle simple syrup or I did it
the way you did it early onalso.
I was always messing around withit'cause I was never satisfied
with sugar and mint and bourbon,you know what I mean?
Uh, I mean, of course thecrushed diocese critical and
(05:00):
really helps a lot, uh, theiness.
Uh, and you need a metal or asilver.
And it frosts up on the outsideand it has to be a little wider
at the top than the bottombecause when you grab it, it'll
slip right through your fingersif it's not right,'cause it's
all slippery on the sides andit's really an amazing drink.
See, at the track, they made themistake of having a straight
(05:22):
sided glass.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Mm, which was
Dale (05:24):
really dumb.
I've dropped and so have a lotof other people.
It comes to you in a box, frozeninto the box, there's a clump of
ice at the bottom.
You pick it up and it slipsright through your hands, you
know?
Mark (05:34):
Yeah,
Dale (05:35):
yeah.
Then you have to take your flaskout.
Mark (05:36):
Seems like a mistake.
I, I think one of your first,uh, iterations of that, that you
did here was with a blackberry.
'cause that's, again, rightaround the same season.
Blackberries are coming up.
And you're throwing a coupleblackberries in the bottom with
the mint and spectacular.
Dale (05:51):
I think I was at Blackbird at the time.
No.
Yes.
Maybe.
I don't know.
But I was doing a lot of mashingof fruit at the black at, at
blackbird with cherries andgrapes and things and things,
and IY yeah.
Francis (06:03):
I, I want, I think it, it, it takes a moment to talk
about, because Pete, we had asimilar experience to you.
We thought, oh, let's try mintju Dale got the gentleman's
companion and all those oldbooks in the eighties and he
figured out that they were acode for like how you could make
a drink.
And I, and I, strangely enough,in the eighties, the Far Hills
(06:23):
Rummage Sale got a first editionof the Gentleman's Companion Box
set and I started going throughthese old, books and the old Mr.
Boston and I kind of slavishlyfollowed the recipes, not
realizing that.
Ingredients have changed.
They didn't write recipesexactly the same as they did
back then.
And I thought, Jesus, thosecocktails tastes like
Speaker 4 (06:41):
crap.
They don't know how to
Francis (06:42):
make a cocktail.
Geez.
And then, uh, it was when Dale,when we met Dale, that I, I
realized that there wastechnique and sensibility that
had to be brought to the table.
and so what I learned from Dalewas all sorts of stuff.
Like you said, use good bourbon,crash ice, you can muddle the
mint gently, but don't beat itbecause if you beat it, it
tastes like asparagus or ittastes like spinach.
(07:02):
But if you gently touch it, ittastes like mint.
And, that is a, I mean, theclassic mint julep, every.
First party of the year, I havethem on my, on my roof.
When the mint comes in,
Dale (07:13):
well, warning Will Robinson.
Early in the early days of, ofthe Rainbow Room, I thought, oh,
wouldn't it be cool to get agood bottle of bourbon and just
pack it full of mint and, andlet it sit, you know, overnight
or something, you know?
So I did that.
Oh my God.
Francis (07:29):
Yeah.
And that's a good
Dale (07:30):
it.
It's almost as if the, you know,have you ever had like a parsley
or min to something in thebottom of the refrigerator for a
week and you take it out andit's almost like liquid and it
stinks.
Francis (07:40):
Yeah,
Dale (07:41):
that's what happened.
It was the worst.
I blew off a really good bottleof bourbon.
I mean, it was totallyworthless.
And I said, oh my God, what wasI thinking?
Francis (07:51):
But in the alternative though, you can make mint simple
syrup and cheat your way in alittle bit.
That's the way to do it, right?
You
Dale (07:58):
could do that.
Francis (07:59):
Yeah.
Dale (07:59):
We have spearmint growing up right side alongside the
house here right now.
And why spearmint?
Regular elephant mint, I callit.
'cause there are big leaves thatare floppy.
Uh, spearmint is standing atattention from the beginning of
the drink to the end.
It never wilts, it never flops.
It makes beautiful littlebouquets.
(08:20):
So look for spearmint
Mark (08:21):
Part of the pleasure of this drink is the garnish and
you know, France and I talkabout drink garnishes all the
time, and.
Dale was one of the people whotaught me this early on.
The garnish needs to make sensewith the drink and it needs to
compliment the drink.
It's part of the drink.
It's not just some pretty color,some pretty flour.
It's gotta be part of the drink.
And mint in a mint, julip at thetop, in your nose, in your face.
(08:46):
Has to be part of it.
Francis (08:47):
Best video ever on making a mint.
Julip chris McMillan breaks hisown ice and, and recites you a
poem about the mint julip whilehe makes it.
We'll put that link on our shownotes to make so you can make
your own mint tulips at home.
Dale (08:58):
That presentation was filmed in a presentation that I
was part of.
At the Smithsonian when we hadthe Museum of the American
Cocktail really rolling strongperiodically.
Phil Green arranged for us toperform at the, Smithsonian.
You can go to their collectionof videos and it's huge.
Uh, and you can see the one.
(09:20):
That was filmed with Chrisreciting the poem, coming on the
downbeat with that big mallet ofhis.
It is amazing.
It's Americana.
I mean, he's a big guy with abig voice.
Francis (09:31):
and he's an authority on the cocktail.
Alright, time to move on to thenext.
Dale (09:35):
before we go anywhere?
Hey buddy.
We may see sovereign andjournalism, nose to nose in the
Belmont Stakes.
Huh?
Pete (09:44):
We're gonna hijack the cocktail conversation with
horses.
Yes.
Ready are.
Francis (09:48):
Okay.
Pete (09:49):
Alright,
Francis (09:49):
so Pete, we have, we have the Belmont steaks coming
up.
what are we looking at on thefield?
Mark (09:54):
Well, the first thing you gotta talk about is it being at
Saratoga instead of Belmont.
Belmont Stakes at Saratoga,
Pete (09:59):
it's one of these, we, it's a weird thing, right?
The traditionalist in me wantsthe Belmont Stakes to live up to
its name, the test of thechampion, and be a mile and a
half.
Around Belmont Park.
That's not gonna happen thisyear because Belmont is being
reconstructed.
Breaking news.
Actually, today we just learned,Dale, that the 2027 Breeders Cup
(10:20):
is going to be contested at thenew Belmont Park, but while we
wait for it to be done, we'regonna be up in upstate this
year.
So it does change the racefundamentally, going from the
mile and a half to the mile anda quarter.
But while something is lost,something is gained.
And what's gained is you're inone of the great sporting venues
in America, if not the world,historic Saratoga racecourse
(10:45):
going back to 1863.
They're, they're building thisthing.
As the Civil War is ending, itsstill recognizable.
You know, obviously been a fewupdates since then, but it's a
magical place and it is a greatsite for a venue like a Belmont
Stakes.
Under these unusualcircumstances.
I wouldn't wanna see a permanentmove or anything like that, but
(11:06):
while there's an excuse to do itup there, let's do it up there.
I've had a house in Saratoga foryears.
We've got the mint patch in theback for reasons, just like we
were talking about, and I neverput together until today.
How the spearmint is a so muchbetter call than the mint that
I've been using all these years.
I'm gonna rip it out and plantthe new stuff as soon as I get
up there.
But this year we're really gonnabe treated to a very special
(11:29):
contest because we're going tohave, it looks like we'll knock.
'cause in horse racing, thingscan change overnight, but it
looks like we're gonna have thederby winner.
Against the Preakness winner.
This could be billed as aheavyweight title fight between
those two, but it might not beas simple as those two'cause
you've got some interestinghorses with outside chances in
(11:50):
here as well.
Bob Baffert, a name that sureneeds no introduction to any
horse racing fan.
Uh, for good reasons and bad, heis in there with big contender,
a horse called Rodriguez.
He's the only one as of now,signed on.
Who wants to do his best runningearly in the race, he could have
what's known as a pace advantageand try to spoil the party.
(12:11):
Then there's a horse called bza.
BZA was third to these two backin the Kentucky Derby.
But you can make a case thatthis horse with as lightly raced
as he is, is just gonna keep onimproving and he might be able
to.
Get in there and, and score atwhat's gonna be a big price.
So as of now, those look likethe four main contenders in this
(12:31):
year's Belmont Stakes.
We'll see who else turns up, butany which way, even just the
presence of journalism andsovereignty to have Kentucky
Derby winner against pre thiswinners horse racing is built on
rivalries and we've got a heckof a one, uh, brewing.
And we'll get to see the nextchapter in upstate New York in
just about, uh, less than aweek's time.
Dale (12:49):
Nice.
Pete (12:50):
Alright.
I
Francis (12:50):
know this is, uh, this is unprofessional and, uh, we
can't guarantee this 100%, butI, I got a million dollars that
I'm gonna do win Place show inyour name.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Give me,
Francis (13:01):
give me the results, uh, of, of, of the horse race.
And by the way, if you predictthis properly.
This will quickly become themost popular podcast in the
world.
So please, we are betting on yougetting this right.
No pressure.
Go
Pete (13:15):
ahead.
Well, I'll tell you what, I, Ihad made a joke before when
folks were asking me about howthe derby went this year, and I
told them I'll live to be ahundred before I give you the 1,
2, 3 in the Kentucky Derby.
Again, I think I can do it inthis year's Belmont Steak,
though I think I, I think I cando it if you're only looking for
one horse.
For me, it's journalism.
There's something about hisearlier body of work,
(13:36):
especially, I think as good ashe's been in these two triple
Crown races.
I think there's more to comefrom this horse.
I think he has a chance to putit all together and do something
really special in the foothillsof the Adirondacks on Saturday.
He'd be the one to win.
But if you want a a, a place andshow a second and third too for
a bet, like the trifecta, I'mnot gonna go against sovereignty
(13:57):
for second.
He's the derby winner.
I think journalism can reversethe form.
I think he's still better thanall the others.
He'll run second.
And that young pretender Imentioned, uh, za.
Pretender in the, in the Englishsense, not in any pejorative
sense, but the up and comer.
I think he's got enough talentto be right up there in a photo
for second, but I think whenthat photo gets developed, he'll
(14:20):
be third.
There it is.
Journalism sovereignty, bza samethree from the derby.
Slightly different order.
Francis (14:26):
that's from Pete Fornet Tile.
So anyone from our show up to ahundred dollars place a bet.
If you lose, Pete's gonna refundyour money.
Pete (14:36):
Come on.
If you in exchange, gimme a niceif, if that same person gives me
a whiskey of of equivalentvalue.
We'll, there you go.
Mark (14:42):
There you go.
It's, well, what's interestingabout that is, so this happens,
this has happened a lot oftimes, right?
that there's a Derby winner anda Preakness winner facing each
other in the Belmont.
So 11 times The Derby winner haswon the Belmont 18 times.
The Preakness winner has won theBelmont, so little higher odds
for the Preakness winner to winthe Belmont Than the Derby
(15:04):
winner.
as far as what's happenedtraditionally, historically on a
strict,
Pete (15:08):
on a strict historical reading, I could see that point.
You know, the trouble with allstats and horse racing is a game
built on stats.
You can, there's a lot ofdifferent ways of, of looking at
them, and I always try to cleavemore closely to the, the
fundamentals of what I see inthe horses as individuals.
But, but that stat does suggestthat I might be right, so I like
(15:28):
it.
Now if it said something that Ididn't like.
I would pull the old, uh,Charlie Brown to Lucy and tell
the statistics to shut up.
Mark (15:35):
I was, I was just about to say, and I pulled up those stat,
those stats, because I likejournalism in this race, and so
that's why I broadcast thoseparticular stats.
Francis (15:45):
All right.
Well, now that we have thewinner all sorted, because
there's no point in evenwatching the race.
But, uh, except for theexcitement of the cash, your
tickets.
Let's, let's go back to thedrinks aspect of the ponies.
What other, alright,
Dale (15:56):
let's forget the Preakness because they got a drink called
the Black Guide, Susan, withvodka rum, orange juice, p blue
juice, and orange liqueur.
Forget it.
That is not a racetrack drink.
Okay, where it came from, forgetabout it, the 1970s.
I wanna bring my drink into, uh,Belmont and Saratoga to the VIP
room, which is two ounces of ryewhiskey, three quarter ounces of
(16:19):
mixed Italian and French Sweetvermouths, uh, half ounce of May
Maro, uh, I like to use a, abonded rye whiskey.
Hello.
You got one in particularAmerican whiskey Is, is at its
sweet spot at a hundred proofand, and at at least four years
old.
So that's the way we want to gowith that drink.
it's called.
Kings as in the sport of KingsManhattan and also King
Francis (16:42):
cocktail.
Yeah.
That kind
Pete (16:44):
of works.
Double works a lot of work.
And you like it with the, youlike it with the New York
distilling rye, right?
Dale (16:50):
I do.
Uh, Alan Kass makes a great rye.
Uh, and he has, he has over ahundred proof on some of his
bottlings.
Francis (16:57):
we used the Old Forester Rye when you were here,
and I made an excellent versionof that cocktail.
are there other, uh, sportsspecific cocktails that go with
this specific?
So,
Dale (17:06):
come on.
Pims Cup.
Are you kidding?
Yeah.
Wi yeah.
Oh my God.
And it's good.
I learned the PIMS Cup at theHotel Belaire in Los Angeles,
and they did it properly, sliceof apple.
Uh, they used barrage, you know,when they had it, or mint when
they didn't.
Uh.
Slice of apple barrage mint.
And we had another one othergarnish, uh, strawberries.
(17:27):
Now, if you go to, if you go toWimbledon, you get basically a
fruit salad on top of yourbeautiful, beautiful, uh, PIs
cup.
Uh, and PIs is so good.
The drink is so good.
They say lemonade and in fact,they're meat.
They mean seven up.
But really, yeah, the best, uh,PI's cup is when you take lemon
juice, simple syrups, yourfavorite sparkling mineral water
(17:50):
or soda or whatever, uh, and,and prepare it that way so it
tastes, you know, fresh andwonderful.
Uh, make by the
Pete (17:57):
picture.
Right, right, Dale?
I mean, it's not Absolutely.
There you
Dale (18:00):
go.
And then just top it off with alittle sparkling,
Pete (18:02):
The first time they said, do you want to jug?
I was like, go.
You mean a pitcher?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
Few pictures of PIs,
Mark (18:11):
people in the US seem to have stopped drinking PIs, you
know, it was popular in theeighties and even a little bit
in the nineties.
Not
Dale (18:17):
in New Orleans, baby,
Mark (18:18):
but yeah, that's true.
Except in New Orleans here, upin the northeast.
I, I haven't had a call for PIMSin a long time.
Dale (18:24):
Isn't that weird, huh?
Mark (18:25):
We always keep it behind the bar, but it just seems to
have, have faded.
It's spectacular.
Yeah.
PIMS cup in the summertime,nothing like it.
Dale (18:31):
The masters.
The masters has the azalea.
Yep.
Which is basically an ArnoldPalmer, to which you add gin.
Now.
I like that idea.
Mark (18:41):
I presume that drink came along later since Arnold Palmer
wasn't around in 1910.
Dale (18:45):
Exactly.
It did.
No, it came along like much,much later.
Uh, and if you're not doing theright thing, you'll make it with
vodka.
I.
Pete (18:53):
I've heard that referred to as the John Daley with no
ironing.
I've heard people do that.
Well,
Dale (18:57):
it, they'll slip in a little pineapple sometime over
there at the master's tournamentfor, for those of setting it
aside, you know, for their
Mark (19:03):
cocktail and not sports fans.
John Dailey is a golfer who'sbeen known to play on the PGA
tour drunk.
Dale (19:10):
Hmm.
Mark (19:11):
Self-admittedly drunk.
Dale (19:14):
Well, okay.
Boxing, who knew not me, thatthere was a time.
When the Jack Rose wasconsidered to be the boxing
drink of choice?
No, I did not know
Mark (19:26):
that.
Dale (19:27):
Who knew?
Mark (19:28):
I did not know that.
Dale (19:29):
has anybody been to finale's on Prince Street?
Of course.
Francis (19:33):
I have a finale story when you're done with the
cocktail.
Dale (19:35):
So you walk in and the bar's on the right, that's the
classic layout.
you're a corner bar.
The bar should be on the rightand on the left there's either
gonna be Windows or what.
They have a giant collection ofboxing photographs going back to
the teens, Why?
Because one of the most famous,gyms for, well, there were
three, but one of the mostfamous ones was right in that
(19:58):
neighborhood.
Francis (19:59):
tell you my finale story.
our mutual friend Dale KurtWenzel, author.
A former, restaurant manager andlike he and I traveled to Europe
together as young men, and thisis before I met you.
And he had a cousin named WadeTonkin, who was a manager of a
restaurant down in soho.
We'd been down there for years,and I came back from Europe and
I'm looking for a bartendingjob.
(20:19):
So, uh, you couldn't get a jobback then if you were a New
Jersey bartender.
Nobody in New York would hireyou without New York experience.
So I went to Wade, who was a NewYork manager.
He's like, yeah, I'll live foryou.
I'll tell him you worked hereand you know, I know what you're
doing and I'll send you aroundto a few places.
And so he sent me to a number ofplaces.
One of the places he sent mewas, and he is like, go and
(20:40):
apply a finale.
You'll never get a job atfinale's because I re it's still
there, by the way.
And, but it was like.
When Soho was, hadn't arrivedyet.
Finale's was an outpost, and I,and I went into finale's.
I wanted a bartender there sobad.
so Wade said, you know, you canapply and I'll put in a good
word for you, but the only wayyou're gonna get a bar
bartending job there, I.
Is if somebody dies.
That's true.
That's the only way you're gonnaget a job there.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
That's true.
So
Francis (21:02):
three weeks later, Kevin Zare got me a job at, so
soho Kitchen in bar and I, andafter I take the job, I get a
call from Wade.
He's like, Francis call meimmediately.
And I'm like, Hey man, what'sgoing on?
I's like one of the bartendersat Finale's just died.
Dale (21:17):
Well, my finale story.
I get back from LA with my newwife.
Of four years, I guess it wasJill, and we're sitting at the
bar.
I hung out at the place and Ikind of recognized the guy.
I He had a bald head, older guy,So we sit down and he goes.
You two together.
And I said, uh, yeah, it'llnever work.
And he turned and he walkedaway.
(21:39):
Now that's the kind of bartenderI really love.
But you mentioned, uh, hiring abartender with New York
experience.
Do you know that when I had amonth, six weeks worth of
interviews for the opening ofthe Rainbow Room, the one thing
I vowed not to do.
Was to hire a bartender with NewYork experience.
Francis (21:58):
Yeah, makes sense.
Very Danny Meyer.
Because who
Dale (21:59):
is gonna make my drinks not a New York bartender?
Francis (22:02):
Right.
Dale (22:03):
They know everything.
That's very, yeah.
Nice.
That sounds great, but I'm gonnamake it this way.
You know, I've doing it foryears.
Why would I flip?
Why would I listen to this guy?
Mark (22:11):
That's funny.
So Pete, I have to tell you alittle story about your dad and
Francis and me.
Nice.
So for those of you who don'tknow, Pete Al's dad was one of
the preeminent disc jockeys inthe world, had the largest
record collection, which Iunderstand you have.
You have, uh, right behind youbrought back to the, to the
front of the line.
(22:32):
Uh, but anyway, so your dad usedto be a DJ at WNEW here in New
York, New Jersey, and.
On July 4th, WNEW did a thingcalled the Firecracker 500, and
they play the top 500 songsever.
so one of the places thatFrancis and I bonded as 19, 20,
(22:54):
21 year olds, we had a July 4thparty every year at a friend's
house.
And we had a thing called BeerOlympics, and the background
track for beer Olympics was thefirecracker 500 ejd by your dad.
And so I have 50 hours of videowhere the firecracker 500 is the
background music of, of allsorts of.
(23:17):
Of fun and games, including theFrancis Shot Memorial Bat Races.
Yeah.
Tremendous
Dale (23:22):
memorial bat race.
Francis (23:23):
Yeah.
Mark (23:23):
Beautiful.
Francis (23:24):
Oh, you
Mark (23:24):
don't wanna know.
Francis (23:25):
Stupid drinking games.
Drinking games Really brought upto an Olympic level in Jeans
baker.
I love that.
Oh dad.
Dad would be proud.
And my, and my favorite thingabout the old beer Olympics is,
you know how they have theOlympic rings?
Our, our symbol was the rings ofa six pack holder.
It was, it was very serious.
Very serious competition.
It was very serious.
Pete (23:45):
there's a great, there's a great bull fighting drink.
I don't know if you have moreDale, but there's a great bull
fighting drink that I have astory about you that that
involves for it.
I,
Dale (23:53):
for know, the bull fighting drink.
But tell me the story.
Pete (23:55):
Well, you tell about the drink first and then I'll tell
the story.
Dale (23:58):
Alright.
The drink is, uh, a mixture,actually.
It's more.
It's kind of a soccer bullfighting also in a bull fighting
drink, but it's, it's a mix of,red wine and Coca-Cola.
Is that the one you're thinkingof?
Pete (24:10):
No, I was thinking of the blood in sand.
Oh, the blood in sand.
Blood in sand.
Well, that's an
Dale (24:14):
American drink.
It's not a span.
I'm thinking about the Spanish.
Pete (24:16):
Gotcha.
I just always assumed it was abull fighting reference.
I've never heard of blood insand until.
I was fortunate enough to bewith you one night, shortly
after Pastis opened and we wereordered.
We all ordered steak fruit, andso the question of course went
to you, what would be a goodcocktail with steak, and you
thought of the blood and sandand I guess you'd trained the
(24:37):
bartenders or something becausenext thing I know, you call the
waiter over, you've got yourpen, you've got your paper,
you're, it's not on the, this istotally off menu.
You're writing out the recipe.
On the, the, the back of anapkin to send to the bartenders
to go and make us around.
And at the time, and to this daystill, it was the most baller
move I've ever seen to be inthe, the hot new restaurant, you
(24:59):
know, writing out the recipe.
This is what we, this is whatwe'd like to drink.
Thank you very much.
Completely.
Francis (25:04):
I wanna make.
Public service announcement toall dining customers.
Uh, if you are not Dale Degra,don't do that.
Dale (25:13):
And by the way, this explains why nobody knows where
these famous drinks came fromwith the, with a few minor
exceptions because they wrote'emdown on.
Cocktail neck and stuck them intheir pocket and later on in the
evening they pulled it out, blewtheir nose on it and threw it
away.
Yeah.
Francis (25:30):
Blood and sand by the way.
I have to give props to bloodand sand.
Great drink orange juice.
cherry, herring, and scotch Andsweet.
Mark (25:38):
It was on our first cocktail.
You put that drink on our firstcocktail menu in 1993.
Why?
Dale (25:42):
Because amazing.
It goes good with game or anyreally heavy meat.
You know, any meat, any meatthat's cooked with a fruit sauce
or with something in that genrelike, like venison with, jerry
sauce or whatever, It's amazing.
Francis (25:56):
Yeah.
And all the, all the cool kidsin cocktails today are crapping
on orange juice.
They're like, oh, orange juiceisn't real.
You can't, you have any goodcocktails with orange juice?
Incorrect.
Incorrect blood and sand is notan overrated cocktail.
It's a great cocktail, but it'sa cocktail that the real snobs
love to hate, which makes melike it even more.
Dale (26:12):
They're probably too lazy to squeeze their own orange
juice.
Francis (26:33):
Alright, well we have one more topic I want to talk
about, uh, for just a momentbefore we go, if you, have the
opportunity to see us onInstagram talking about this, we
have behind us one of JillDegrass painting.
This is Rosie Nik on the Horse.
Believe You Can, she was thefirst woman to win the Kentucky
Oaks, Kentucky in 2012.
_1_05-28-2025_135023 (26:53):
All of Jill Graf's paintings are for
sale at stage left wineshop.com.
Just do a search for DeGraff andyou'll turn up Dale's Bitters
and tomorrow.
And, you'll also see all ofJill's beautiful artwork, which
you should definitely have inyour home,
Francis (27:06):
we are the number one gallery site for Jill's work,
uh, permanently.
So come into the bar and checkit out anytime.
you know the story
Dale (27:12):
behind that painting.
Francis (27:13):
Yeah.
Tell the story.
Dale (27:15):
brown Foreman they were the, uh, Belmont sponsors for
years.
Mm-hmm.
And they wanted to put art onthe label of the Belmont
Edition.
And so Jill did that and sent itin and missed the deadline.
And they said, oh, we reallyliked it, you know, but we've
already gone with anotherpainting, you know?
she thought, well, how manywomen.
(27:38):
Are in, involved in major races,not very many.
And she thought, this'll give mea really inside track, if
Speaker 4 (27:44):
you will.
Yeah, yeah.
Dale (27:47):
Anyway, it was too bad.
So there it sits, you know,well, here
Francis (27:50):
it sits until you wanna buy it.
And check us out at
Mark (27:53):
stage left wine chop.com.
So the story of every bartendereverywhere, always is.
Yeah, I missed the deadline.
Pete (28:00):
Yeah.
Mark (28:02):
I
Pete (28:02):
was gonna win that.
But
Mark (28:03):
I, I love when they're, like, tales of the cocktail has
this and, uh, BC, B, theBrooklyn event has this, and
every time like you're like, andthe deadline is this, and then a
deadline comes and you're like.
We have extended the deadline.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Yeah.
Francis (28:17):
You're running a bartender contest.
You know there's gonna be anextra week.
You just know.
Exactly.
Dale (28:22):
Or a co or a spirits competition.
Francis (28:24):
Yeah.
Anyway, guys, this has beensuper fun.
Yeah, terrific.
Thank you very much.
And, uh, it's been very valuableto our listeners because as long
as they listen before theBelmont Stakes, they're all
gonna get rich.
Just the picks.
Pete (28:34):
That's the plan anyway, right?
If anybody wants more of my act,by the way, in the Money Media
YouTube channel or in the moneypodcast.com, lots of yapping
about racing, but I sneak indrinks and our restaurant
references as often as possible.
Mark (28:48):
We will see you at Saratoga this summer.
we will definitely need toconnect at first week of August
when I'm up there.
Francis (28:53):
And Dale, we'll see you at Bar Conference Brooklyn, uh,
in just a couple of weeks.
Dale (28:56):
I'll be at the Hendricks Bar from 12 to one 30.
Francis (28:59):
And so that guarantees that I'll be on the other side
of the Hendricks bar from 12 toone 30 at the same time.
Listen, everybody, hope youenjoyed this, special edition of
the Restaurant, guys,, placeyour bets and we'll see you
soon.
I'm Francis Sch.
_1_05-28-2025_135023 (29:12):
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurant guys.
You can always find outmore@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
We'll see you next time.
Happy Trails.
Hello everybody and welcome.
You are listening to theRestaurant Guys.
I'm Mark Pascal and I'm herewith Francis Shot.
Together we own stage left incapital Lombardi, restaurants in
New Brunswick, New Jersey.
We're here to bring you theinside track on food, wine, and
the finer things in life.
Francis (00:25):
Hello everybody.
Today you are listening to aspecial bonus episode of the
Restaurant Guys.
Uh, in honor of the Belmontsteaks, which is coming up later
this week.
We have invited in some cocktailpeople and some pony people.
We have Dale DeGraff, who's theking of the cocktail, if he
needs no introduction and if youdon't know who he is.
Listen to an old episode orGoogle the man.
He is the king of the cocktail.
If
Mark (00:44):
you don't know who he is, you're listening to the wrong
show.
Francis (00:45):
Yeah, you haven't listened.
Welcome to your First RestaurantGuys radio show.
We also have Pete Fortal, andPete has a foot in both the
world of Ponies and the World ofCocktails.
He hosts the award-winning inthe Money Players Podcast, which
offers analysis and engagingcommentary on the world of.
Thoroughbred racing, but notjust in the horses.
Peter co-authored BrooklynSpirits Craft Distilling and
Cocktails from the World's Hipsborough.
(01:07):
He's been known to get behindthe stick himself, and we're
happy to have both of these guyson the show with us for a
special bonus episode of theRestaurant.
Guys.
Gentlemen, welcome to the show.
Dale (01:15):
Hi guys.
Hello.
Hey, did you hear that Pete saidInside track.
Inside Track,
Francis (01:21):
works for ponies.
so Dale, you are a, a horseyaficionado.
You have put on shows thatcombine cocktails and, music and
ponies that we've hosted somehere.
And, uh, when we were talking toyou about doing this, we thought
it, this bears a special, uh,restaurant guys episode.
So I think we wanna start thepodcast by talking about.
(01:43):
Cocktails that are specific tosporting events, and I guess
specifically there are ponyevents that call that are
traditional cocktails that areassociated with them.
That's kind of an interestingsubset of traditional cocktails.
Can you talk to us about that tostart a Sure,
Dale (01:58):
sure.
Well, obviously Mele, that'sthe.
The oldest and also the MintJulip, was the first American
cockle to be exported to London,where at Oxford University there
was actually a mid julip day.
Uh, but mid Julip was incrediblyimportant in the development of
the relationship betweenAmerican whiskey and horse
racing.
Uh, even though the mid first,mid may have been, uh, peach
(02:21):
brandy.
and then of course, uh, thesecond leg of the triple crown
has the black-eyed Susan, wellwait.
Francis (02:27):
We gonna talk about the Mint julip, that's Kentucky
Derby.
Mark (02:29):
Yeah.
when did the Mint, Julip and theDerby Connect?
When did those two thingshappen?
Dale (02:33):
Uh, do you know Pete?
Mark (02:35):
Yeah, I've, I've,
Pete (02:36):
I have a, a whole blurb about it in, uh, the, the
cocktail book I wrote, which iscalled Brooklyn Spirits.
But of course, you know, I wrotethat 10 years ago.
So, so asking you to remember isa, is a bit of a, is a bit of a
lift here, but I think it wasnot that far from, from the
beginning of the event.
Right.
Just timing wise, in terms ofcocktails in American culture,
(02:57):
late 19th century, we're talkingright.
Francis (03:00):
Yes, but how does the drink?
And I just think it's may, maybeyou guys don't know, but I think
it's interesting to note thatwhen you think of the Kentucky
Derby, you think of Mint juleps,you think of the specific
glassware, the specific cup.
It's a bourbon thing and it's,most people, it's many.
For many people, it's the onlymint julip they have all year.
And you know, if you're, unlessyou're in New Orleans, and I
(03:20):
love mint jokes in thesummertime, but you know, mint
has just come up and you just.
You think of the hats.
You think of the outfits, youthink of those, uh, pewter cups
and you know, it's inextricablyidentified with the Kentucky
Derby is the mint Julep.
Mark (03:33):
I, I thought you were gonna say, and you're off to the
race and you're off.
That's what I thought
Pete (03:37):
before I met Dale.
Before I met Dale, I thought themint julep was obnoxious thing
that tasted like a mixture ofweak whiskey and toothpaste.
Yeah.
But then taking a class fromDale at some point in the
nineties.
He made a version of a julipusing, I think it was a bottled
in bond whiskey, so a little bitstronger, didn't get as diluted
(04:00):
and using, instead of justsyrup, muddling a little bit of
orange and a little bit ofpineapple along with the mint.
I have been making that versionof the drink dale at the Derby
ever since, and I always raisemy grandfather's pewter jupa tin
to you when I do it.
Dale (04:18):
I, I, I, I've been messing with the drink for years.
I created the whiskey smash.
Number two in re in in honor andtradition, uh, to the tradition
of Jerry Thomas who had thewhiskey smash.
Uh, but it was, his whiskeysmash was just a mint julip on
a, in a short class.
You know, it sold all around thecity of New York, probably more
mint JUULs was sold in New YorkCity than anywhere else in the
(04:40):
world.
And the.
Idea of, of the short glass withmint and sugar and bourbon.
Eh, so I put the lemon in alittle simple syrup or I did it
the way you did it early onalso.
I was always messing around withit'cause I was never satisfied
with sugar and mint and bourbon,you know what I mean?
Uh, I mean, of course thecrushed diocese critical and
(05:00):
really helps a lot, uh, theiness.
Uh, and you need a metal or asilver.
And it frosts up on the outsideand it has to be a little wider
at the top than the bottombecause when you grab it, it'll
slip right through your fingersif it's not right,'cause it's
all slippery on the sides andit's really an amazing drink.
See, at the track, they made themistake of having a straight
(05:22):
sided glass.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Mm, which was
Dale (05:24):
really dumb.
I've dropped and so have a lotof other people.
It comes to you in a box, frozeninto the box, there's a clump of
ice at the bottom.
You pick it up and it slipsright through your hands, you
know?
Mark (05:34):
Yeah,
Dale (05:35):
yeah.
Then you have to take your flaskout.
Mark (05:36):
Seems like a mistake.
I, I think one of your first,uh, iterations of that, that you
did here was with a blackberry.
'cause that's, again, rightaround the same season.
Blackberries are coming up.
And you're throwing a coupleblackberries in the bottom with
the mint and spectacular.
Dale (05:51):
I think I was at Blackbird at the time.
No.
Yes.
Maybe.
I don't know.
But I was doing a lot of mashingof fruit at the black at, at
blackbird with cherries andgrapes and things and things,
and IY yeah.
Francis (06:03):
I, I want, I think it, it, it takes a moment to talk
about, because Pete, we had asimilar experience to you.
We thought, oh, let's try mintju Dale got the gentleman's
companion and all those oldbooks in the eighties and he
figured out that they were acode for like how you could make
a drink.
And I, and I, strangely enough,in the eighties, the Far Hills
(06:23):
Rummage Sale got a first editionof the Gentleman's Companion Box
set and I started going throughthese old, books and the old Mr.
Boston and I kind of slavishlyfollowed the recipes, not
realizing that.
Ingredients have changed.
They didn't write recipesexactly the same as they did
back then.
And I thought, Jesus, thosecocktails tastes like
Speaker 4 (06:41):
crap.
They don't know how to
Francis (06:42):
make a cocktail.
Geez.
And then, uh, it was when Dale,when we met Dale, that I, I
realized that there wastechnique and sensibility that
had to be brought to the table.
and so what I learned from Dalewas all sorts of stuff.
Like you said, use good bourbon,crash ice, you can muddle the
mint gently, but don't beat itbecause if you beat it, it
tastes like asparagus or ittastes like spinach.
(07:02):
But if you gently touch it, ittastes like mint.
And, that is a, I mean, theclassic mint julep, every.
First party of the year, I havethem on my, on my roof.
When the mint comes in,
Dale (07:13):
well, warning Will Robinson.
Early in the early days of, ofthe Rainbow Room, I thought, oh,
wouldn't it be cool to get agood bottle of bourbon and just
pack it full of mint and, andlet it sit, you know, overnight
or something, you know?
So I did that.
Oh my God.
Francis (07:29):
Yeah.
And that's a good
Dale (07:30):
it.
It's almost as if the, you know,have you ever had like a parsley
or min to something in thebottom of the refrigerator for a
week and you take it out andit's almost like liquid and it
stinks.
Francis (07:40):
Yeah,
Dale (07:41):
that's what happened.
It was the worst.
I blew off a really good bottleof bourbon.
I mean, it was totallyworthless.
And I said, oh my God, what wasI thinking?
Francis (07:51):
But in the alternative though, you can make mint simple
syrup and cheat your way in alittle bit.
That's the way to do it, right?
You
Dale (07:58):
could do that.
Francis (07:59):
Yeah.
Dale (07:59):
We have spearmint growing up right side alongside the
house here right now.
And why spearmint?
Regular elephant mint, I callit.
'cause there are big leaves thatare floppy.
Uh, spearmint is standing atattention from the beginning of
the drink to the end.
It never wilts, it never flops.
It makes beautiful littlebouquets.
(08:20):
So look for spearmint
Mark (08:21):
Part of the pleasure of this drink is the garnish and
you know, France and I talkabout drink garnishes all the
time, and.
Dale was one of the people whotaught me this early on.
The garnish needs to make sensewith the drink and it needs to
compliment the drink.
It's part of the drink.
It's not just some pretty color,some pretty flour.
It's gotta be part of the drink.
And mint in a mint, julip at thetop, in your nose, in your face.
(08:46):
Has to be part of it.
Francis (08:47):
Best video ever on making a mint.
Julip chris McMillan breaks hisown ice and, and recites you a
poem about the mint julip whilehe makes it.
We'll put that link on our shownotes to make so you can make
your own mint tulips at home.
Dale (08:58):
That presentation was filmed in a presentation that I
was part of.
At the Smithsonian when we hadthe Museum of the American
Cocktail really rolling strongperiodically.
Phil Green arranged for us toperform at the, Smithsonian.
You can go to their collectionof videos and it's huge.
Uh, and you can see the one.
(09:20):
That was filmed with Chrisreciting the poem, coming on the
downbeat with that big mallet ofhis.
It is amazing.
It's Americana.
I mean, he's a big guy with abig voice.
Francis (09:31):
and he's an authority on the cocktail.
Alright, time to move on to thenext.
Dale (09:35):
before we go anywhere?
Hey buddy.
We may see sovereign andjournalism, nose to nose in the
Belmont Stakes.
Huh?
Pete (09:44):
We're gonna hijack the cocktail conversation with
horses.
Yes.
Ready are.
Francis (09:48):
Okay.
Pete (09:49):
Alright,
Francis (09:49):
so Pete, we have, we have the Belmont steaks coming
up.
what are we looking at on thefield?
Mark (09:54):
Well, the first thing you gotta talk about is it being at
Saratoga instead of Belmont.
Belmont Stakes at Saratoga,
Pete (09:59):
it's one of these, we, it's a weird thing, right?
The traditionalist in me wantsthe Belmont Stakes to live up to
its name, the test of thechampion, and be a mile and a
half.
Around Belmont Park.
That's not gonna happen thisyear because Belmont is being
reconstructed.
Breaking news.
Actually, today we just learned,Dale, that the 2027 Breeders Cup
(10:20):
is going to be contested at thenew Belmont Park, but while we
wait for it to be done, we'regonna be up in upstate this
year.
So it does change the racefundamentally, going from the
mile and a half to the mile anda quarter.
But while something is lost,something is gained.
And what's gained is you're inone of the great sporting venues
in America, if not the world,historic Saratoga racecourse
(10:45):
going back to 1863.
They're, they're building thisthing.
As the Civil War is ending, itsstill recognizable.
You know, obviously been a fewupdates since then, but it's a
magical place and it is a greatsite for a venue like a Belmont
Stakes.
Under these unusualcircumstances.
I wouldn't wanna see a permanentmove or anything like that, but
(11:06):
while there's an excuse to do itup there, let's do it up there.
I've had a house in Saratoga foryears.
We've got the mint patch in theback for reasons, just like we
were talking about, and I neverput together until today.
How the spearmint is a so muchbetter call than the mint that
I've been using all these years.
I'm gonna rip it out and plantthe new stuff as soon as I get
up there.
But this year we're really gonnabe treated to a very special
(11:29):
contest because we're going tohave, it looks like we'll knock.
'cause in horse racing, thingscan change overnight, but it
looks like we're gonna have thederby winner.
Against the Preakness winner.
This could be billed as aheavyweight title fight between
those two, but it might not beas simple as those two'cause
you've got some interestinghorses with outside chances in
(11:50):
here as well.
Bob Baffert, a name that sureneeds no introduction to any
horse racing fan.
Uh, for good reasons and bad, heis in there with big contender,
a horse called Rodriguez.
He's the only one as of now,signed on.
Who wants to do his best runningearly in the race, he could have
what's known as a pace advantageand try to spoil the party.
(12:11):
Then there's a horse called bza.
BZA was third to these two backin the Kentucky Derby.
But you can make a case thatthis horse with as lightly raced
as he is, is just gonna keep onimproving and he might be able
to.
Get in there and, and score atwhat's gonna be a big price.
So as of now, those look likethe four main contenders in this
(12:31):
year's Belmont Stakes.
We'll see who else turns up, butany which way, even just the
presence of journalism andsovereignty to have Kentucky
Derby winner against pre thiswinners horse racing is built on
rivalries and we've got a heckof a one, uh, brewing.
And we'll get to see the nextchapter in upstate New York in
just about, uh, less than aweek's time.
Dale (12:49):
Nice.
Pete (12:50):
Alright.
I
Francis (12:50):
know this is, uh, this is unprofessional and, uh, we
can't guarantee this 100%, butI, I got a million dollars that
I'm gonna do win Place show inyour name.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Give me,
Francis (13:01):
give me the results, uh, of, of, of the horse race.
And by the way, if you predictthis properly.
This will quickly become themost popular podcast in the
world.
So please, we are betting on yougetting this right.
No pressure.
Go
Pete (13:15):
ahead.
Well, I'll tell you what, I, Ihad made a joke before when
folks were asking me about howthe derby went this year, and I
told them I'll live to be ahundred before I give you the 1,
2, 3 in the Kentucky Derby.
Again, I think I can do it inthis year's Belmont Steak,
though I think I, I think I cando it if you're only looking for
one horse.
For me, it's journalism.
There's something about hisearlier body of work,
(13:36):
especially, I think as good ashe's been in these two triple
Crown races.
I think there's more to comefrom this horse.
I think he has a chance to putit all together and do something
really special in the foothillsof the Adirondacks on Saturday.
He'd be the one to win.
But if you want a a, a place andshow a second and third too for
a bet, like the trifecta, I'mnot gonna go against sovereignty
(13:57):
for second.
He's the derby winner.
I think journalism can reversethe form.
I think he's still better thanall the others.
He'll run second.
And that young pretender Imentioned, uh, za.
Pretender in the, in the Englishsense, not in any pejorative
sense, but the up and comer.
I think he's got enough talentto be right up there in a photo
for second, but I think whenthat photo gets developed, he'll
(14:20):
be third.
There it is.
Journalism sovereignty, bza samethree from the derby.
Slightly different order.
Francis (14:26):
that's from Pete Fornet Tile.
So anyone from our show up to ahundred dollars place a bet.
If you lose, Pete's gonna refundyour money.
Pete (14:36):
Come on.
If you in exchange, gimme a niceif, if that same person gives me
a whiskey of of equivalentvalue.
We'll, there you go.
Mark (14:42):
There you go.
It's, well, what's interestingabout that is, so this happens,
this has happened a lot oftimes, right?
that there's a Derby winner anda Preakness winner facing each
other in the Belmont.
So 11 times The Derby winner haswon the Belmont 18 times.
The Preakness winner has won theBelmont, so little higher odds
for the Preakness winner to winthe Belmont Than the Derby
(15:04):
winner.
as far as what's happenedtraditionally, historically on a
strict,
Pete (15:08):
on a strict historical reading, I could see that point.
You know, the trouble with allstats and horse racing is a game
built on stats.
You can, there's a lot ofdifferent ways of, of looking at
them, and I always try to cleavemore closely to the, the
fundamentals of what I see inthe horses as individuals.
But, but that stat does suggestthat I might be right, so I like
(15:28):
it.
Now if it said something that Ididn't like.
I would pull the old, uh,Charlie Brown to Lucy and tell
the statistics to shut up.
Mark (15:35):
I was, I was just about to say, and I pulled up those stat,
those stats, because I likejournalism in this race, and so
that's why I broadcast thoseparticular stats.
Francis (15:45):
All right.
Well, now that we have thewinner all sorted, because
there's no point in evenwatching the race.
But, uh, except for theexcitement of the cash, your
tickets.
Let's, let's go back to thedrinks aspect of the ponies.
What other, alright,
Dale (15:56):
let's forget the Preakness because they got a drink called
the Black Guide, Susan, withvodka rum, orange juice, p blue
juice, and orange liqueur.
Forget it.
That is not a racetrack drink.
Okay, where it came from, forgetabout it, the 1970s.
I wanna bring my drink into, uh,Belmont and Saratoga to the VIP
room, which is two ounces of ryewhiskey, three quarter ounces of
(16:19):
mixed Italian and French Sweetvermouths, uh, half ounce of May
Maro, uh, I like to use a, abonded rye whiskey.
Hello.
You got one in particularAmerican whiskey Is, is at its
sweet spot at a hundred proofand, and at at least four years
old.
So that's the way we want to gowith that drink.
it's called.
Kings as in the sport of KingsManhattan and also King
Francis (16:42):
cocktail.
Yeah.
That kind
Pete (16:44):
of works.
Double works a lot of work.
And you like it with the, youlike it with the New York
distilling rye, right?
Dale (16:50):
I do.
Uh, Alan Kass makes a great rye.
Uh, and he has, he has over ahundred proof on some of his
bottlings.
Francis (16:57):
we used the Old Forester Rye when you were here,
and I made an excellent versionof that cocktail.
are there other, uh, sportsspecific cocktails that go with
this specific?
So,
Dale (17:06):
come on.
Pims Cup.
Are you kidding?
Yeah.
Wi yeah.
Oh my God.
And it's good.
I learned the PIMS Cup at theHotel Belaire in Los Angeles,
and they did it properly, sliceof apple.
Uh, they used barrage, you know,when they had it, or mint when
they didn't.
Uh.
Slice of apple barrage mint.
And we had another one othergarnish, uh, strawberries.
(17:27):
Now, if you go to, if you go toWimbledon, you get basically a
fruit salad on top of yourbeautiful, beautiful, uh, PIs
cup.
Uh, and PIs is so good.
The drink is so good.
They say lemonade and in fact,they're meat.
They mean seven up.
But really, yeah, the best, uh,PI's cup is when you take lemon
juice, simple syrups, yourfavorite sparkling mineral water
(17:50):
or soda or whatever, uh, and,and prepare it that way so it
tastes, you know, fresh andwonderful.
Uh, make by the
Pete (17:57):
picture.
Right, right, Dale?
I mean, it's not Absolutely.
There you
Dale (18:00):
go.
And then just top it off with alittle sparkling,
Pete (18:02):
The first time they said, do you want to jug?
I was like, go.
You mean a pitcher?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
Few pictures of PIs,
Mark (18:11):
people in the US seem to have stopped drinking PIs, you
know, it was popular in theeighties and even a little bit
in the nineties.
Not
Dale (18:17):
in New Orleans, baby,
Mark (18:18):
but yeah, that's true.
Except in New Orleans here, upin the northeast.
I, I haven't had a call for PIMSin a long time.
Dale (18:24):
Isn't that weird, huh?
Mark (18:25):
We always keep it behind the bar, but it just seems to
have, have faded.
It's spectacular.
Yeah.
PIMS cup in the summertime,nothing like it.
Dale (18:31):
The masters.
The masters has the azalea.
Yep.
Which is basically an ArnoldPalmer, to which you add gin.
Now.
I like that idea.
Mark (18:41):
I presume that drink came along later since Arnold Palmer
wasn't around in 1910.
Dale (18:45):
Exactly.
It did.
No, it came along like much,much later.
Uh, and if you're not doing theright thing, you'll make it with
vodka.
I.
Pete (18:53):
I've heard that referred to as the John Daley with no
ironing.
I've heard people do that.
Well,
Dale (18:57):
it, they'll slip in a little pineapple sometime over
there at the master's tournamentfor, for those of setting it
aside, you know, for their
Mark (19:03):
cocktail and not sports fans.
John Dailey is a golfer who'sbeen known to play on the PGA
tour drunk.
Dale (19:10):
Hmm.
Mark (19:11):
Self-admittedly drunk.
Dale (19:14):
Well, okay.
Boxing, who knew not me, thatthere was a time.
When the Jack Rose wasconsidered to be the boxing
drink of choice?
No, I did not know
Mark (19:26):
that.
Dale (19:27):
Who knew?
Mark (19:28):
I did not know that.
Dale (19:29):
has anybody been to finale's on Prince Street?
Of course.
Francis (19:33):
I have a finale story when you're done with the
cocktail.
Dale (19:35):
So you walk in and the bar's on the right, that's the
classic layout.
you're a corner bar.
The bar should be on the rightand on the left there's either
gonna be Windows or what.
They have a giant collection ofboxing photographs going back to
the teens, Why?
Because one of the most famous,gyms for, well, there were
three, but one of the mostfamous ones was right in that
(19:58):
neighborhood.
Francis (19:59):
tell you my finale story.
our mutual friend Dale KurtWenzel, author.
A former, restaurant manager andlike he and I traveled to Europe
together as young men, and thisis before I met you.
And he had a cousin named WadeTonkin, who was a manager of a
restaurant down in soho.
We'd been down there for years,and I came back from Europe and
I'm looking for a bartendingjob.
(20:19):
So, uh, you couldn't get a jobback then if you were a New
Jersey bartender.
Nobody in New York would hireyou without New York experience.
So I went to Wade, who was a NewYork manager.
He's like, yeah, I'll live foryou.
I'll tell him you worked hereand you know, I know what you're
doing and I'll send you aroundto a few places.
And so he sent me to a number ofplaces.
One of the places he sent mewas, and he is like, go and
(20:40):
apply a finale.
You'll never get a job atfinale's because I re it's still
there, by the way.
And, but it was like.
When Soho was, hadn't arrivedyet.
Finale's was an outpost, and I,and I went into finale's.
I wanted a bartender there sobad.
so Wade said, you know, you canapply and I'll put in a good
word for you, but the only wayyou're gonna get a bar
bartending job there, I.
Is if somebody dies.
That's true.
That's the only way you're gonnaget a job there.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
That's true.
So
Francis (21:02):
three weeks later, Kevin Zare got me a job at, so
soho Kitchen in bar and I, andafter I take the job, I get a
call from Wade.
He's like, Francis call meimmediately.
And I'm like, Hey man, what'sgoing on?
I's like one of the bartendersat Finale's just died.
Dale (21:17):
Well, my finale story.
I get back from LA with my newwife.
Of four years, I guess it wasJill, and we're sitting at the
bar.
I hung out at the place and Ikind of recognized the guy.
I He had a bald head, older guy,So we sit down and he goes.
You two together.
And I said, uh, yeah, it'llnever work.
And he turned and he walkedaway.
(21:39):
Now that's the kind of bartenderI really love.
But you mentioned, uh, hiring abartender with New York
experience.
Do you know that when I had amonth, six weeks worth of
interviews for the opening ofthe Rainbow Room, the one thing
I vowed not to do.
Was to hire a bartender with NewYork experience.
Francis (21:58):
Yeah, makes sense.
Very Danny Meyer.
Because who
Dale (21:59):
is gonna make my drinks not a New York bartender?
Francis (22:02):
Right.
Dale (22:03):
They know everything.
That's very, yeah.
Nice.
That sounds great, but I'm gonnamake it this way.
You know, I've doing it foryears.
Why would I flip?
Why would I listen to this guy?
Mark (22:11):
That's funny.
So Pete, I have to tell you alittle story about your dad and
Francis and me.
Nice.
So for those of you who don'tknow, Pete Al's dad was one of
the preeminent disc jockeys inthe world, had the largest
record collection, which Iunderstand you have.
You have, uh, right behind youbrought back to the, to the
front of the line.
(22:32):
Uh, but anyway, so your dad usedto be a DJ at WNEW here in New
York, New Jersey, and.
On July 4th, WNEW did a thingcalled the Firecracker 500, and
they play the top 500 songsever.
so one of the places thatFrancis and I bonded as 19, 20,
(22:54):
21 year olds, we had a July 4thparty every year at a friend's
house.
And we had a thing called BeerOlympics, and the background
track for beer Olympics was thefirecracker 500 ejd by your dad.
And so I have 50 hours of videowhere the firecracker 500 is the
background music of, of allsorts of.
(23:17):
Of fun and games, including theFrancis Shot Memorial Bat Races.
Yeah.
Tremendous
Dale (23:22):
memorial bat race.
Francis (23:23):
Yeah.
Mark (23:23):
Beautiful.
Francis (23:24):
Oh, you
Mark (23:24):
don't wanna know.
Francis (23:25):
Stupid drinking games.
Drinking games Really brought upto an Olympic level in Jeans
baker.
I love that.
Oh dad.
Dad would be proud.
And my, and my favorite thingabout the old beer Olympics is,
you know how they have theOlympic rings?
Our, our symbol was the rings ofa six pack holder.
It was, it was very serious.
Very serious competition.
It was very serious.
Pete (23:45):
there's a great, there's a great bull fighting drink.
I don't know if you have moreDale, but there's a great bull
fighting drink that I have astory about you that that
involves for it.
I,
Dale (23:53):
for know, the bull fighting drink.
But tell me the story.
Pete (23:55):
Well, you tell about the drink first and then I'll tell
the story.
Dale (23:58):
Alright.
The drink is, uh, a mixture,actually.
It's more.
It's kind of a soccer bullfighting also in a bull fighting
drink, but it's, it's a mix of,red wine and Coca-Cola.
Is that the one you're thinkingof?
Pete (24:10):
No, I was thinking of the blood in sand.
Oh, the blood in sand.
Blood in sand.
Well, that's an
Dale (24:14):
American drink.
It's not a span.
I'm thinking about the Spanish.
Pete (24:16):
Gotcha.
I just always assumed it was abull fighting reference.
I've never heard of blood insand until.
I was fortunate enough to bewith you one night, shortly
after Pastis opened and we wereordered.
We all ordered steak fruit, andso the question of course went
to you, what would be a goodcocktail with steak, and you
thought of the blood and sandand I guess you'd trained the
(24:37):
bartenders or something becausenext thing I know, you call the
waiter over, you've got yourpen, you've got your paper,
you're, it's not on the, this istotally off menu.
You're writing out the recipe.
On the, the, the back of anapkin to send to the bartenders
to go and make us around.
And at the time, and to this daystill, it was the most baller
move I've ever seen to be inthe, the hot new restaurant, you
(24:59):
know, writing out the recipe.
This is what we, this is whatwe'd like to drink.
Thank you very much.
Completely.
Francis (25:04):
I wanna make.
Public service announcement toall dining customers.
Uh, if you are not Dale Degra,don't do that.
Dale (25:13):
And by the way, this explains why nobody knows where
these famous drinks came fromwith the, with a few minor
exceptions because they wrote'emdown on.
Cocktail neck and stuck them intheir pocket and later on in the
evening they pulled it out, blewtheir nose on it and threw it
away.
Yeah.
Francis (25:30):
Blood and sand by the way.
I have to give props to bloodand sand.
Great drink orange juice.
cherry, herring, and scotch Andsweet.
Mark (25:38):
It was on our first cocktail.
You put that drink on our firstcocktail menu in 1993.
Why?
Dale (25:42):
Because amazing.
It goes good with game or anyreally heavy meat.
You know, any meat, any meatthat's cooked with a fruit sauce
or with something in that genrelike, like venison with, jerry
sauce or whatever, It's amazing.
Francis (25:56):
Yeah.
And all the, all the cool kidsin cocktails today are crapping
on orange juice.
They're like, oh, orange juiceisn't real.
You can't, you have any goodcocktails with orange juice?
Incorrect.
Incorrect blood and sand is notan overrated cocktail.
It's a great cocktail, but it'sa cocktail that the real snobs
love to hate, which makes melike it even more.
Dale (26:12):
They're probably too lazy to squeeze their own orange
juice.
Francis (26:33):
Alright, well we have one more topic I want to talk
about, uh, for just a momentbefore we go, if you, have the
opportunity to see us onInstagram talking about this, we
have behind us one of JillDegrass painting.
This is Rosie Nik on the Horse.
Believe You Can, she was thefirst woman to win the Kentucky
Oaks, Kentucky in 2012.
_1_05-28-2025_135023 (26:53):
All of Jill Graf's paintings are for
sale at stage left wineshop.com.
Just do a search for DeGraff andyou'll turn up Dale's Bitters
and tomorrow.
And, you'll also see all ofJill's beautiful artwork, which
you should definitely have inyour home,
Francis (27:06):
we are the number one gallery site for Jill's work,
uh, permanently.
So come into the bar and checkit out anytime.
you know the story
Dale (27:12):
behind that painting.
Francis (27:13):
Yeah.
Tell the story.
Dale (27:15):
brown Foreman they were the, uh, Belmont sponsors for
years.
Mm-hmm.
And they wanted to put art onthe label of the Belmont
Edition.
And so Jill did that and sent itin and missed the deadline.
And they said, oh, we reallyliked it, you know, but we've
already gone with anotherpainting, you know?
she thought, well, how manywomen.
(27:38):
Are in, involved in major races,not very many.
And she thought, this'll give mea really inside track, if
Speaker 4 (27:44):
you will.
Yeah, yeah.
Dale (27:47):
Anyway, it was too bad.
So there it sits, you know,well, here
Francis (27:50):
it sits until you wanna buy it.
And check us out at
Mark (27:53):
stage left wine chop.com.
So the story of every bartendereverywhere, always is.
Yeah, I missed the deadline.
Pete (28:00):
Yeah.
Mark (28:02):
I
Pete (28:02):
was gonna win that.
But
Mark (28:03):
I, I love when they're, like, tales of the cocktail has
this and, uh, BC, B, theBrooklyn event has this, and
every time like you're like, andthe deadline is this, and then a
deadline comes and you're like.
We have extended the deadline.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Yeah.
Francis (28:17):
You're running a bartender contest.
You know there's gonna be anextra week.
You just know.
Exactly.
Dale (28:22):
Or a co or a spirits competition.
Francis (28:24):
Yeah.
Anyway, guys, this has beensuper fun.
Yeah, terrific.
Thank you very much.
And, uh, it's been very valuableto our listeners because as long
as they listen before theBelmont Stakes, they're all
gonna get rich.
Just the picks.
Pete (28:34):
That's the plan anyway, right?
If anybody wants more of my act,by the way, in the Money Media
YouTube channel or in the moneypodcast.com, lots of yapping
about racing, but I sneak indrinks and our restaurant
references as often as possible.
Mark (28:48):
We will see you at Saratoga this summer.
we will definitely need toconnect at first week of August
when I'm up there.
Francis (28:53):
And Dale, we'll see you at Bar Conference Brooklyn, uh,
in just a couple of weeks.
Dale (28:56):
I'll be at the Hendricks Bar from 12 to one 30.
Francis (28:59):
And so that guarantees that I'll be on the other side
of the Hendricks bar from 12 toone 30 at the same time.
Listen, everybody, hope youenjoyed this, special edition of
the Restaurant, guys,, placeyour bets and we'll see you
soon.
I'm Francis Sch.
_1_05-28-2025_135023 (29:12):
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurant guys.
You can always find outmore@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
We'll see you next time.
Happy Trails.
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