Brown & Miller Talk Cocktail History and Bartending Legends *V* - The Restaurant Guys

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark (00:40):
Good morning, mark.
Hey, Francis.
How are you?
Just ducky.
Thanks.
How are you?
Yeah, I'm doing, I'm doingpretty well.
I, I, we did read a, adisturbing article in the Newark
Star Ledger not too long ago.

Francis (00:51):
We mean the one where I crumbled up the newspaper and
threw it across the ah, or youwent ta.
I guess, I guess we're talkingabout the same article.
I

Mark (00:59):
handed Francis an article recently.
Um, and, and the reason I thinkthat Francis and I were both
irritated by the article is itwas in the section called
Bamboozled.
And, and no matter where you arein the country, I'm sure you
have some, either, either your,it's the consumers, it's not on
the job.
We're gonna go and take thosemerchant who are trying to rip

(01:20):
you off and Exactly.
Get your stuff back and we'regonna get your stuff back.
Exactly.
And, and I have to say, thearticle itself was written
fairly.
Uh, fairly, but this is int thebut bamboozled.
But the fact that it was in thebamboozled section was an issue.
Bamboozled is

Francis (01:33):
like where the newspaper art, uh, team goes out
because you brought your car tothe lube place.
Right.
And they said they changed youroil, but they didn't change your
oil.
Right.
Somebody,

Mark (01:41):
they said you had a new carburetor and you looked under
the hood and there was an oldcarburetor.
Exactly.
And, and.

Francis (01:46):
And this doesn't qualify as that, I don't think.
Okay.
So tell the story.
Alright, so the story is, Iwill, I will excerpt from the
article.
It was in the Star Ledger byKaren Price Miller, who's a very
good reporter, by the way.
I agree.
And has,

Mark (01:57):
and has actually solved some, some great people who were
truly bamboozled.

Francis (02:01):
And I, and I don't think, and I don't think she got
this one totally right, butwell, we'll see.
The Star Ledger, um, a April,2013, uh, comes out, it came out
on April 1st actually.
And, and it says she starts offwith this column isn't an April
Fool's joke.
Like, this is so crazy.
That implies to me that she'ssaying the actions of the
restaurant are, are like a jokeor like, are so crazy.

(02:23):
You might mistake them for ajoke.
Um, Jack and Toby Litsky arevegans.
When they both turned 50 lastyear, they decided to battle
high cholesterol by becomingvegan.
Um, da.
Um, so they, yada, yada, yada, Ibelieve yada is what you were
looking to say.
They, uh, just, well writtenarticle.
We, we've got only a certainamount of time, so, um.
They came to learn that not allpasta is adver advertised as a

(02:46):
hundred percent is act a hundredpercent whole grain actually is
so and so they've taken tobringing their own pasta to
Italian restaurants,

Mark (02:52):
which is true.
You should know that if you, ifit says whole grain pasta, it
doesn't mean it's a hundredpercent whole grain pasta.
Right?
Same thing with uh, whole wheatbread.
If you're, if it just says wholewheat bread, it does not mean
it's a hundred percent wholewheat bread.
You need to make sure it says ahundred percent whole wheat
bread

Francis (03:06):
on it.
Right?
Okay.
So the way they've dealt withthis is they've gone to at least
50 or 60 restaurants in the pastyear and a half, and we've never
had an issue.
Okay?
Uh, we give them a box of pastaand they drop it in the water
and we ask if they use redmarinara tomato sauce, or we ask
for mushrooms and onions andpeppers if they have it.
Um, and if they've never visitedthe restaurant before, they call

(03:28):
to make sure the kitchen canaccommodate them.
Okay?
Oh, very reasonable.
Very reasonable.
All of it.
Very reasonable.
Um, to make it easier forservers and chefs, the IES took
to writing down their dietaryneeds and cooking instructions
on cards, which are handed inwhen they place their order.
Okay?
It's a little much, but, okay.
A little man.

Mark (03:44):
But you know what?
A lot of restaurants get itwrong.
So I understand why you might,might be afraid.
I mean, you know, France and Ihave talked in the show about a
thing called Restaurant scars.
We understand that you come fromother restaurants sometimes and
with scars from the mistakesthey've made

Francis (03:59):
and, and it's cool.
It's fine, and we wouldcertainly accommodate that.
No, no problem at all.
Um, and here's a quote from Mr.
Lipsky or Lipsky.
What they typically do is giveus a discount.
If a pasta dish is$15, they'llcharge us 11 or 12 because we
brought our own.
We don't ask for the discount,but they usually give one.
Um, I think that's becauseyou're catching the restaurant

(04:21):
off guard.
Mm-hmm.
And they haven't thought itthrough.
Mm-hmm.

Mark (04:23):
Yeah.
Continue through the wholearticle.
We'll, we'll talk about, he said

Francis (04:25):
the restaurants typically split the uncooked
pasta into two servings, whichis a box of pasta, which is more
than enough to satisfy him andhis wife appetite.
Therefore, meaning they don'torder appetizers and they don't
order desserts.
They just have the pasta thatthey brought.
Um, the first time they visitedMonticello at Red Bank about a
year ago, Lisky said he calledahead to explain their needs and
make a reservation for six on aSaturday night.

(04:47):
Everything was great the firsttime.
They charged us$12 each forpasta.
A month later, they returnedwith four co diners and another
box of pasta, and they werecharged that amount again.
And then on February 23rd withfour new friends and a$50 coupon
from restaurants.com.
They expected the same thingbecause in their view,

(05:07):
Monticello had set a precedent.
Uh, and so they assumed theywould be charged the same thing.
Of course, they didn't come witha coupon the time before, but
Correct.
They set a precedent.
Uh, Lisky said, uh, some of hisparty ordered chicken, some
ordered fish, and the vealParmesan lisky handed the
waitress.
Now they haven't called aheadthis time.
They handed the waitress a boxof pasta on a middle of a busy
Saturday night with their$50coupon, and explained what his

(05:30):
wife wanted.
When the orders arrived, henoticed the pasta portion sizes
were smaller than usual, and hesaid it looked like only half
the pasta was cooked.
Um, it had mushrooms and onionsand olives, a new addition to
their diet, which they liked.
But he said the olives had pitsand were hard to eat.
He didn't complain, uh, but he,and he said he enjoyed the meal
with his friends.
When the bill came, he thoughtthings weren't right.
He saw the chicken dishes were23 or$24, and the fish was 23

(05:54):
and the pasta was 24 each.
He asked the waitress to doublecheck thinking it was supposed
to be maybe 24 for both.
When the waitress returned, shesaid, no, that's the price.
Uh, he has to speak to amanager.
Manager said, no, that's theprice.
He has to speak to the owner.
He said, the owner is also thecook.
She's cooking.
It's the middle of Saturdaynight right now.
Mm-hmm.
So, uh, he said, well, I'llwait.
I'll wait until she comes out.

(06:14):
So 10 minutes later, the womanstops cooking in a restaurant in
the middle of a Saturday nightto come out and talk to him.
Uh, and the quote is, accordingto him.
And this is odd.
They, she, he says that, shesaid, you've come here on a
Saturday night and order acustom meal.
Um, I have to charge you, I haveto charge you at least the price

(06:34):
of a regular meal.
Of a regular meal.
And he says, but you've alreadyset the precedent.
You charge me a lot less thanthat on a several occasions.
And she said, I didn't knowabout that.
That was the old manager'sdecision.
Um, but this is the price.
Um, Lisky said he argued that adifferent price should have been
disclosed, but he had neverasked the price.
Mm-hmm.
He just assumed the ownerinsisted he pay the entire bill.

(06:55):
Lisky said the pastas on themenu range from 17 to 24.
He was charged 24.
Um, and he said he offered tocompromise and pay 18.
Uh, and the owner said, no, paythe bill, or I'm gonna call the
police.
He said no, she called thepolice.
He explained to the police, thepolice said, pay the bill.

Mark (07:13):
Pay the bill.
Or be arrested.

Francis (07:13):
Or be arrested.
Um, so he then went home and,uh, disputed the charge with the
American Express, calledAmerican Express to dispute the
charge.
Um, so then this reporter fromthe Star Ledger reaches out to
the owner.
Uh, the owner says, listen, Idon't even have a$12 pen pasta
on my menu.
Mm-hmm.
Why would I charge'em$12?
Um, if I did before I, I'm, youknow, that was a mistake.

(07:34):
uh, she didn't say that.
That's my editorializing.
she said she offered to sell apasta dishes for$20 each of the
time, but she wouldn't honor the$50 certificate.
'cause the$50 certificate saysdoesn't work if you have a
customized dish.
Which is every, which, right?
I know that website and that'strue.
Okay.
Um, plus she said she didn'tunderstand why Listy disputed
the entire bill.

(07:54):
He said he didn't mean todispute the entire bill.
And then, um, they, came to acompromise.
She charged him when the papergot involved, she charged him
$18.

Mark (08:02):
here's what, what's happening now, some of our
listeners right now are saying.
Well, it should be less.
They brought, the bulk of theingredients to the restaurant.
And some of our listeners rightnow are saying, why would you
expect to pay less?
And I, I believe that it'sFrancis and my, it's our purpose
here in this show to give youthe, the restaurateurs
perspective.

Francis (08:22):
But the resters is your side of the story.
And so

Mark (08:24):
that's what I want to do Let's look at the numbers of
this.
I think most of us would agree.
You come in on a slow Tuesdaynight and you bring your own
pasta and we deal with that andit's slow, and I make a year
dish on the side.
There's no real cost.
I understand why they onlycharge'em$12.
I wouldn't have done that, justso you know.
I would've charged you theregular price of the entree.

(08:45):
Right.
So the pasta with marinara,whatever that is on my menu,
that's what I would've chargedyou for.
Yes.
The pasta that you brought, butlet's talk about the cost to the
restaurant, bringing your ownpasta in on a busy night.
Well, let's, let's take anaverage restaurant.
Which runs with a six burnerstove and a pasta machine, pasta
maker.
Okay?
And, and that pasta makerbasically is a, something that

(09:06):
speed boils water,

Francis (09:07):
just keeps a lot of water hot for a long time
without having to recover.

Mark (09:11):
Okay?
So let's say in that six, sixburners on a Saturday night, all
six burners are going all nightlong and the pasta maker's going
all night long.
A gluten-free order comes in.
One of the burners is now out ofthe out of the circuit.
'cause I can't use the water inthe pasta machine that's got
gluten in it because I can't usethe water in the pasta machine.
It's got gluten in it.
So now I, now I begin to boilyour water.

(09:32):
And for I now have one of myburners takes 12 minutes to
bring your water to a boilgluten-free pasta.
Anywhere from another 10, 12minutes to cook that pasta.
Another six minutes to dowhatever I'm gonna do in the
pan.
Toss it, plate it.
Put it in the window.
So I've now taken one of the sixburners for 30 minutes

Francis (09:51):
outta commission on Saturday night, out of

Mark (09:52):
commission on Saturday night, and, and where I'm making
your food.
Every entree goes in a pan forabout six minutes, one way or
another.
That means that six burner areais putting out 60 entrees per
hour by taking one burner outfor half an hour,

Francis (10:08):
50 entrees per hour.

Mark (10:09):
It's now putting out.
Well, yeah, 50 entrees per hournow, or 55 because it's only a
half an hour, depending on howbusy I am.
Either every patron in therestaurant is waiting four more
minutes for their entrees,right?
Or I am serving 55, 56 peopleincluding you instead of 60

(10:30):
people in that hour.
There's a cost to that onSaturday night, right?
Saturday night is prime time.
You've cost me four, but yourtwo entrees have cost me four
other people being able to havedinner in my restaurant.
Awesome.
During that hour, now you'vecome in

Francis (10:46):
or you've, or you've caused people, you know, maybe
less or you've caused people towait, have wait at the bar.
Correct.
But, but, or you've caused fourpeople to wait 15 minutes at the
bar.

Mark (10:53):
So either you've added.
Half an hour, four people towait to half an hour at the bar.
So either you've added a cuanother customer's
dissatisfaction or you, you'vereduced the number of people
that I can serve in the evening.
Right.
It's one of those two things.
Right.
Now you, what you would like isfor me to serve you to is to, is
to charge you less.
Okay?
You're a regular customer.

(11:13):
I want you to keep coming.
You came on Thursday, you cameon a Tuesday, that's great.
So I'm going to accommodate thisrequest even though it's
causing.
Other issues for, for mycustomers to think that that
should be discounted.
You are not counting the othercost to my business, right?
You haven't made my life easier.
You've made my life harder.
You don't understand that.
So now I'm gonna go into therestaurants.com thing.

(11:35):
So now, so forget about, so, sothat's, if there's no coupons
involved, that's just regular,you've either cost me four other
customers that night or you'vecost.
Four customers to wait 15, 15minutes.
And

Francis (11:45):
what he means by four other customers is sometimes
when you say to people, Hey,I'll have a take for you in 15
minutes, they say, especially ina town like Red Bank, lots of
restaurants, they say No, we'llgo someplace else.
Exactly.
And that's, and that's how youlose those four customers.
Mm-hmm.
Because you say or, or in a morelikely scenario.
Makes sense everybody.
Where normally you'd say to alot of people, I'll have a table
for you in 15 minutes.
Mm-hmm.
Most people are gonna say yes,but if you were running at the

(12:06):
15 minute wait and now you say,I'll, I'll have a table for you
in 30 minutes.
Right?
They say, no, we'll go someplaceelse.

Mark (12:12):
So, I mean, these are real numbers.
This is real life, restaurantowning, restaurant running tho
these are the kinds of thingsthat you need to consider
whenever, whenever you make adecision in your restaurant, you
have to consider the numbers of,of the restaurant, period.
So.
Now you've, so, but I wannaaccommodate my CU customer.
I always want, I always want mycustomer to leave with smile on

(12:34):
their face.
I always want Yep.
To do whatever I can to makethat customer happy.
So I do it, but I can't discountthat.
And then again, I to discountthat restaurants.com.
Now, I, I'm not exactly sure howrestaurants.com goes, but let me
give you a Groupon as anexample.
Okay?
Groupon, you pay 50 cents on adollar.
Well, Groupons takes half ofthat money.

(12:56):
So, so they keep 25 cents on adollar.
Not that we've ever doneGroupon, but they've approached
us, so I, so I know how, and wesaid, get away from you how
their formula works.
So basically, if you use aGroupon, the, the place is gonna
get 25%, 25 cents on the dollar.
So now you've asked them to takehalf the money of a regular
entree.
You've asked them to take 25cents on a dollar.

(13:17):
So basically what you've saidis, I want to pay you$4 an
entre.
Even though I'm costing you fourentrees when I walk in the door,
right.
That's just unreasonable.
And what I understand is Iunderstand the patron doesn't
understand the the back of thehouse business, right?
The people who listen to thisshow probably are more in tune
with something like that.

Francis (13:36):
Think about this, you know, when, how much does the
box of pasta cost?

Mark (13:40):
Mm-hmm.

Francis (13:40):
A box of pasta costs.
Even gluten-free pasta.
$3.
$3.
But the pasta.
So say it was, I was gonnacharge 20 bucks for a, a bowl of
pasta.
Well, honestly, the pasta inthat pasta cost me no more than
it cost you.
I pay wholesale, it cost meless, right?
So the pasta in your pastareally only cost you a buck,
right?
So you're like, oh, here.
I'll, I'll pay it for the pasta.

(14:02):
And then you don't get the pastaor the markup on the pasta.
Mm-hmm.
And, and here's the thing.
Restaurants run these days.
This is real number 7%profitability is doing great,
which means of every a hundreddollars that comes in the
restaurant at the end of theyear hasn't profit seven buck.
I I can't discount your billlike that.
Mm-hmm.
And what that means is 93% ofthe money's being spent on

(14:23):
something.
Typically in an Italianrestaurant like that, you're
talking about a 27, 20 8% foodcost.
So.
Of that a hundred dollars,$28 isfood costs.
Well, you know that and, butyou've only got$7 left.
Right?
So$65, 65% of your, look at

Mark (14:40):
Francis doing math on the fly for

Francis (14:42):
you

Mark (14:42):
guys.

Francis (14:42):
Okay.

Mark (14:43):
It's

Francis (14:43):
happening.
65% of the cost of your dish isnot the food at all.
Mm-hmm.
And with pasta.
Honestly the, there is a highgross profit margin on pasta,
which is why pasta is lessexpensive than the other things.
'cause we need to make a certainnumber of dollars per person
that comes through the doorbecause we have to pay for a
certain number of chairs.
We have to pay for a certainnumber of tablecloths and linens

(15:04):
and the heat, and chefs andchefs and

Mark (15:07):
people and waiters.
And that's the part that I thinksometimes that people don't
understand.
this is the, the part that thisperson didn't understand,
certain dollar per person that Ihave to bring in on a Saturday
night.

Francis (15:17):
Right.
You come in and you order apasta and you tell me you're on
a gluten-free diet, it means youdon't order an appetizer.
You don't order dessert.
If you come in and sit at atable and then you give me a
coupon that you paid 50 cents onthe dollar for, and I get 25
cents on the dollar for, if youcome in and spend 20 bucks, I
get$5.
Mm-hmm.
And then you wanna through$4discount.
Yeah, there comes a point wherethe restaurant has to say, Hey,

(15:39):
no, I think the personbamboozled here was the
restaurateur.
I think the restaurateur had thepress come in and and say,
listen, right?
She needed to compromise or itwas gonna get written.
Bad things about her.
I think the restaurateur wastotally right here.
So where are we going for dinnerthis week?
Monticello in Red Bank, I wantyou all.
If you are in a strikingdistance of Monticello at Red
Bank, I want you to go to dinnerat Monticello in Red Bank.

(16:02):
Order something off the menu,pay the full price and thank the
chef.

Mark (16:07):
and enjoy it and enjoy the restaurant and its ambiance.
And

Francis (16:11):
the owner's last name is Gian Bazo.
Please tell her the restaurant Isent you.
We're really curious to hearwhat you think.
Whatever you think.
Feel

Mark (16:18):
free to disagree with us.
Yeah, because we disagree witheach other all the time.

Francis (16:21):
We'd love to know what you have to say.
We'll be back in just a momentwith a great guest.
Stick with us.
Hey everybody, welcome back.
It's the restaurant guys, markand Francis.
And our guests today areAnastatia Miller and Jared
Brown.
Uh, you may have read any oftheir 30 books on cocktails that
they have written before,including Shaken, not Stirred, a
Celebration of the Martini, um,their Master Work, the Two

(16:42):
Volume Spiritist Journey, aHistory of Drink.
Charts, the history of spiritsand mixed drinks from 7,000 BC
to the 20th century.
These guys are fantastic.
They write for food arts, wine,spectators, cigar, Fido, and
their new book is The Deans ofDrink, the Amazing Lives and
Turbulent Times of Harry Johnsonand Harry Cradock.

Mark (17:00):
Anastatia and Jared.
Welcome to the show.

Jared (17:02):
Thank you.
Great to be here.

Francis (17:04):
Well, it's great to have you on the restaurant guys,
uh, for the first time.
We've read a number of yourbooks over the years and we seem
to run in the same circlesbecause we are ships passing in
the night in many differentplaces.
And, uh, when I read yourcurrent book, I just, I had to
have you on the show to talkabout it.
I think it's inspired andinteresting and different.
The title of the book is TheDeans of Drink of the Amazing

(17:24):
Lives and Turbulent Times ofHarry Johnson and Harry Cradock,
as Seen in a New Light.
What's the new light?

Anastasia (17:31):
Uh, the fact that both Harry's actually tell us a
lot about the bar industry andthe history of the bar industry,
and how someone who you see asbeing a bar legend can actually
be living quite a dramatic lifein the background.
You know?
So besides making a profoundeffect like Harry Johnson did in

(17:51):
introducing remove cocktails,documenting, remove cocktails
for the first time in history,he was also one of the people
who.
Um, experience what it was like,uh, dealing with prejudice.
In the industry.

Francis (18:06):
Well, talk to us about that.

Jared (18:08):
It wasn't easy being a German American, uh, coming into
World War I and even before, sohe was facing remarkable
prejudice.
But the, the new light that, uh,you asked about.
Was delving beyond the booksthat they wrote and deeply into
their personal lives.

Francis (18:29):
Well, and you guys are historians, uh, by trade.
I mean, that's, that's sort of asignature of, of everything
you've written.
Uh, you do a wonderful jobcontextualizing things.
I do like that.
in a couple of differentiterations, having included
recipes in this book.
But we can talk about thoselater.
Uh, my last name is shot.
I'm mostly Irish and I'm, I'm aquarter German, but my German
grandfather, old man shot.

(18:50):
he called your Germangrandfather.
Old man shot.
That's what they called him.
Grandpa shot would you prefer,but he is not your grandpa.
Don't call him that.
Um.
he was, he was a cop in town.
He sounds so loving.
Old man

Mark (19:00):
shot.

Francis (19:01):
No, I never met, I never met him.
I never, I never met my, mygrandfather, but he was, um, he
was a cop in town, in a townwhere his family had been for
many, many years.
And, you know, there were rocksthrown through his windows in
his house.
uh, it, it's funny to thinkabout for me, prejudice against
the Irish prejudice against, theGermans it's insane to think
about it, but you talk about howit was really hostile here as

(19:22):
World War I approach to.

Anastasia (19:24):
Well, it was, it was basically hostile from about the
1860s when Jerry Thomas wasrunning around New York as well.
And if you were Irish, good luckas far as, you know, if you
owned a saloon, you were thefirst people the police would
come and crack in on.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
Yep.

Anastasia (19:39):
Um, if you, if, if there was going to be any
trouble, they'd look at thebartender and go, you are,
you're the cause of it.
And you're Irish and you'redefinitely the cause of it.
And the same thing happened withthe Germans.
Because here with Germanshaving, uh, these little beer
gardens and families would gothere with their kids and have a
very pleasant time, but goodgrief, they were German, you

(20:02):
know, they couldn't speakEnglish properly.
It's, it is one of those darkpoints in, in American history
that people don't think about,and it's very pertinent to the
bartending industry because infact.
In New Jersey.
In New York, most of theestablishments are either owned
by the Irish or the German.

Francis (20:22):
and as you talk about in your book, that's because
they brought some of theirEuropean, alcohol culture to
puritanical America.
And, and yeah.
I

Anastasia (20:29):
mean, we would not have cocktail shakers to be
quite honest with you.
Uh, if it hadn't have been forthe Germans bringing in the
doppel fos backer, the Jaredloves talking about the Doppel
Foss backer.

Francis (20:40):
that

Jared (20:40):
the cocktail shaker was invented somewhere around 1870
because that was the firstAmerican patent for a cocktail
shaker

Speaker 3 (20:47):
uhhuh.

Jared (20:48):
The truth is they had these, uh, interlocking metal
cups in German taverns back tothe 14 hundreds, and I can't
imagine.
German tavern owners havingthese interlocking cups sitting
around for centuries withouthaving to put, having put them
to any use

Francis (21:08):
and, and what did you call them again?
A doppel.
What?

Jared (21:11):
Doppel Foss Becker, which translates to double barrel
beaker.

Francis (21:15):
I I thought that was just when you saw someone who
looked a lot like someone elseand they were, oh, that's, it's
different.
I guess that's different.

Jared (21:22):
See, one that looks a lot like one, that would be the
double fo Becker's Doppel gang.

Francis (21:27):
Got it.
You know what, thank you forgoing to the next step with
that.
I appreciate that.
Now

Speaker 3 (21:31):
the,

Francis (21:32):
the, usually when I call somebody a fo backer, I
mean something completelydifferent.
Another question I have aboutAmerican bartending is the sort
of the what, the knowledge wegrew up with, or the knowledge
that I have ingrained is thatone of the things that set the
American cocktail apart was itsuse of ice, which of course
implies a shaker as well.
Um, talk to me about ice and,and where that, did that come

(21:54):
from Europe as well?
How, what was the relationshipof ICE in Europe and in America?

Anastasia (21:57):
Nope.
Now that is the one true thingthat we believe.
Was the, the high point ofAmerican contributions to, to
drinks was the fact of FrederickTudor, who was a Bostonian.
Mm-hmm.
Came up with great idea ofselling ice from Walden Pond and
Wyn and Lake, where there's thisbeautiful crystal clear ice.

(22:19):
And they actually went out,sawed the stuff, brought the
horses in, brought the carts anda bunch of hay, and took the ice
and went out and sold it.
I mean, talk about.
The most unbelievable businessplan on earth,

Speaker 3 (22:32):
right?
You

Anastasia (22:32):
live in a place where there is plenty of beautiful
crystal clear ice, and you justchop it up and sell it to the
rest of the world.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
That's

Jared (22:40):
pretty smart, and he

Anastasia (22:41):
really

Jared (22:41):
did sell it to the rest of the world as well.
In 1806, Frederick Tudor madehis first ice shipment from
Boston, and he sailed that iceall the way to Martinique.
On arrival, he realized heshould have probably built an
ice house first.
So he had a bit of a fire saleon his ice.

Francis (22:58):
Oh, so when he, he got it there, but when he got it
there, there was nowhere to keepit.

Anastasia (23:02):
Exactly.
And, and the irony is it's thenext place he went.
The next year was to Cuba.
And Cuba was one of those placesthat instead of the hospitals
and.
Doctors who really appreciatedit.
'cause it was the only, the onlyrelief that anybody who had
yellow fever could have wasbeing, being cooled off with
ice.
Cuba had another group of peoplewho went absolutely passionate

(23:25):
for the stuff.
It was the bodega owners, theguys who owned bars.

Francis (23:29):
Yeah, sure.
And

Anastasia (23:31):
they loved it.

Francis (23:32):
You know, I always remember when I first traveled
to Europe when I was, you know,24 years old, and I went, and I,
I don't dunno what I ordered,and I said, I don't have that
with ice.
And there was one lonely cubefloating in my drink, and I
thought, can I have 30 times?

Anastasia (23:46):
Actually found one

Francis (23:47):
yes no.
And I was like, can I, they'relike, you want soda with ice?
I said, here.
And he reached with his littletongs and he put two ice cubes
in my soda.
And I thought, are you serious?
And then I saw what they meantby a sandwich and I really was
like, what the hell are you guystalking about

Mark (23:58):
after coming, I, I lived at.
A summer in Europe.
And after coming back, Iremember the two things I wanted
where I wanted a drink filledwith ice and a shower curtain.

Jared (24:08):
A shower curtain.
Are you insane?
Yeah.
They, they're just indesperately short supply of
shower curtains in France.

Mark (24:16):
Yes.
I, I, I didn't get it.
I didn't understand that.
But we

Anastasia (24:19):
had to smuggle a shower curtain, um, from ikea,
and because we were living inFrance, working on the
restoration of the museum.
And, uh, walked into theapartment and went, Hey, guess
what's missing?
Well,

Francis (24:32):
we should talk about that for a moment.
You guys are co-founders of theMuseum of the American Cocktail
with, um, so many of other ofour friends, including Dale
DeGraff.
Uh, and you also have justfinished a project opening, a
cocktail museum, elevationMuseum in Europe.
Wanna tell us about.

Anastasia (24:47):
Well actually, uh, the museum was already standing
since 1958.
It was, uh, founded and built byPaul Riccar or Au Kar and uh, it
was on his private island Eel deBand Door.
No one had actually opened thedoors and seen what was inside
of this museum since 1964.

(25:08):
And, uh, we had someone whoactually called us up and said,
Hey, do you wanna come down toyield Band Door?
And, you know.
Well check it out.
And it's in the Riviera, so it'skind of cool.
And I went, okay, let's go.
Well, they opened the door andthen they locked us inside.
Um, and after they took our jawoff the floor.
Yeah.

(25:28):
Which it was literally on thefloor.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
Why?
What did you see for

Anastasia (25:31):
10,000 bottles?
Murals, hand painted murals allover the building.
It was literally a cathedral towine and spirits that had
remained untouched until wewalked in in 2006.

Francis (25:44):
And then what did you guys do to it to get it open?

Anastasia (25:47):
We cleaned, restored, photographed, documented, looked
up histories, catalogedeverything.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, then, then Jared, for somereason, found in one
refrigerator.
Room in, in this old, uh,butcher shop area, found about
1200 menus dating back to the 18hundreds.

Mark (26:10):
Wow, that's great.

Anastasia (26:12):
So to put it mildly, every summer for three years,
uh, we spent, was it fivemonths?

Jared (26:18):
Well, the first year we were there for nine months.

Anastasia (26:20):
Yeah.
The second

Jared (26:21):
year we were there for six.
The third year we were therefor.
Five months.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
Yeah.

Jared (26:26):
Um, and in the meantime, doing a lot of traveling, uh,
either with presentations aboutthe museum or working on
building its education programor occasionally getting to work
on further acquisitions.
We added another thousandbottles to the collection while
we were there.

Francis (26:45):
Who now, who endowed this museum?
Where does the money come from?

Jared (26:48):
From

Anastasia (26:48):
the recall family.

Francis (26:49):
Ah, they have some, I hear they've got some, they've
got some of the cash layingaround

Anastasia (26:53):
a dollar.

Francis (26:54):
And is it now, is it now open to the public?

Jared (26:57):
It is open to the public in the summer.
so I believe it's just fromthrough July and August

Francis (27:04):
Well, and so can we get a website or How would people
find out?
Oh, yes.

Jared (27:07):
If you wanna have a look at the museum, you can check it
out online@www.euvs.org.

Mark (27:16):
And we'll put that on Restaurant guys radio too.

Francis (27:18):
So yeah, check under the show@restaurantguysradio.com
and we'll link you there.
If you're driving, don't, don'tget in an accident trying to
write that down.
We'll have it for you when youcheck with us later.

Anastasia (27:25):
Well, that it's a lot easier than trying to spell out
the actual name of museum.

Francis (27:29):
Yeah, yeah, I figured, I figured that that was really
wise.
We will spell out the actualname.
Well, one of our assistants willspell out the actual name of
museum on the website.
There you

Speaker 3 (27:36):
go.

Francis (27:37):
Um, so let's go back to your book.
Your book was reallyfascinating.
It's, it's split into two parts.
Harry Johnson and then HarryCradock.
And.
Craddick and Harry Johnson'scareers overlapped.
Harry Johnson sort of was comingto a close at the, at the
beginning of Harry Creed'scareer.
Um, what's, what's the lineagethere?
What happened?

(27:57):
What did each man bring to theprofession?
What, what was different aboutthem?

Anastasia (28:01):
Well, um, you can say that, that Harry Johnson.
Was actually the man who trulydid document America's
contribution to a style ofdrink, which was for most
cocktails, uh, the martini, theManhattan, keep going.
Um, he was the first one toactually document those drinks
and encouraged people.

(28:23):
To to look at how many differentvariations now you can do it.
I mean, there was like, was itfive different variations on the
martini alone?

Jared (28:30):
Yep.
Yep.
What skills did he have in thebook?

Anastasia (28:32):
Uh, 200 something.

Jared (28:35):
Yeah.
A lot of people talk about JerryThomas being the father of
Modern Bartending.

Speaker 3 (28:39):
Mm-hmm.
But

Jared (28:40):
in terms of the cocktail, in 1862, Jerry Thomas included
10 drinks under the name, or 10drinks under the Heading
Cocktail Harry Johnson.
Had somewhere in theneighborhood of 250.

Speaker 3 (28:56):
Yeah.

Francis (28:57):
Yeah.
You know, that's what reallystruck me when I, and I do know
the history of some of these,uh, guys before.
And, and one of the things thatI, I found very interesting was
it, it's about these two guys,but there's a whole cast of
characters including Ada Johnsonand all the other, bartenders
that were contemporaneousthrough both of these men's
lives.
And what I really foundwonderful about this book was it
sort of contextualized thesestories in relation to each

(29:19):
other.
I think sometimes we, we get afalse impression that Jerry
Thomas started cocktails and didit by himself for 25 years, and
then other people began where,whereas that's not really the
case.
And you really get a sense ofthat with his book.

Anastasia (29:31):
No, it it, well, you see, that's the thing it, I
think, because once you latchonto a hero.
It's kind of hard to, um, lookfor other heroes or understand,
how many different facets theperson can have.
I mean, it's like, Jerry Thomaswas the closest thing to the
ultimate flare bartender in theworld.
Mm-hmm.
He was a showman.
He was a show off.
He beat his own chestconstantly.

(29:53):
Harry Johnson seemed to be moreof the intellectual type.
He was actually much more of abusinessman.
I mean, you've gotta figure hewas spending a lot of time,
especially after 1888, where hewas doing consulting work.
With other restaurants and otherpotential bar owners and trying
to teach them how to train upstaff and da da da da da.

(30:13):
So he was a lot more of thereally boring, murky kind of
guy.
the funny thing is, is bothJohnson Andre were kind of murky
like that.
You know, Ooh, let's keep anindex box of every single drink
that, you know, a customer comesup with or he came up with or he
found because he'd been trainedto do it and you know, who else
would sit there and obsess witha database.

Mark (30:35):
But, but those are the people who are so important
when, as a historian, that tolook back on because those are
the people who are catalogingall of this information for us
so that, so that we can lookback at it.

Jared (30:46):
And thankfully Harry Cradock was going one step
further and was a vocal defenderof the cocktail and of drink in
general.
Uh, during prohibition, therewere grumblings in Europe as
well, and in England there werepeople speaking out against the
cocktail as being detrimental tothe individual and detrimental

(31:09):
to society.
And then there were letters fromHarry Cradock to the newspapers
laying down very logicalarguments for the cocktail.

Francis (31:20):
And what kind of arguments would he employ?

Jared (31:22):
He was pointing out that the cocktail was very beneficial
to the digestion when taken onecocktail before a meal.
He was pointing out that, uh,people generally had better
health if they had one or twococktails a day.

Francis (31:39):
I knew I'd like this guy.

Mark (31:41):
Well, it's something that we've since

Francis (31:42):
proven, I mean, with scientific facts.
Yeah, sure.
You have to have a drink.
Is is is a good thing.
I, I think also he wastraumatized though.
He, he had been bartending inNew York and Prohibition.
Mm-hmm.
He was one of those bartenderswho had to emigrate, who got
outted.

Anastasia (31:56):
Well, yeah, I mean, here he, he thought that he'd
found, you could imagine thisguy came from a wool mill town,
And, um, yeah, he had, he wasgonna be doomed to either be a
weaver and a textile mill, or atailor, or, you know, a yarn
maker or something.
And he, he just wanted to besomething more.

(32:16):
So when he came to the US and hefound himself the perfect job
Co.
Okay.
So he did lie about how muchexperience he had when he first
got started, and of courseeverybody took him to task for,
but you know, I can't think of asingle person who starts out in
the bartending industry whohasn't lied to get his first job
as a bark back.

Mark (32:36):
That's funny.
His,

Jared (32:37):
his

Anastasia (32:37):
first

Jared (32:38):
customer.
Did take him to task.
Uh, the first customer, HarryCrad ever served, walked up.
Harry had just stepped behindthe bar because the bartender
had walked away and he wantedthat job.
So the customer said, give me atin roof cocktail.
And Harry said, uh, I'm sorry.
I don't know that one.

(32:58):
The customer said, oh, noproblem.
I'll walk you through it, andtold them how to mix it.
And then Harry looked at him andsaid, why is it called the Tin
Roof cocktail?
And the customer looked at himand said, because this one's on
the house.

Mark (33:14):
That's

Jared (33:14):
funny.
Ouch.

Mark (33:15):
You know, it's, you know what I, I like The, the little
pun here of he had to spin someyarns in order to not spin yarn.

Francis (33:21):
That's, that's a really great,

Anastasia (33:23):
oh, that's very good.
I like that one,

Mark (33:27):
Francis, the look on Francis's face.
He doesn't like it as well asyou two do.
I think it's

Anastasia (33:30):
a,

Francis (33:31):
a reach like I've never heard before, but I'll, I'll go
along if everyone, if you outgoat me,

Anastasia (33:36):
I'm not happy with that one.

Francis (33:37):
I was thinking back on that line to get your first
bartending job.
I think that's harder to do nowbecause the information is out
there, when I, when I startedlooking for a job as a
bartender, no one ever hired abartender that didn't have
experience.
Now that math just doesn't work,right?
Yeah.
I mean, on the face of it thatyou would never hire someone who
didn't have experience and inNew York bars, you would never

(33:57):
hire anyone without New Yorkexperience Now.
Yep.
That, that just doesn't work'cause they can't inject you
with experience.
fortunately my cousin owned abar and, uh, I, I pushed the
envelope a little bit.
He did actually train me behindhis bar for four or five days
before he said that I was hisbartender, when I had been his
waiter.
and that helped.

(34:18):
Yeah, it really helped.
And I got my first job and I wasthere not a month when a guy
named Chip, who was the numberone customer of this very nice
restaurant, I remember Chipwalked in.
And this is back when you couldsmoke indoors.
he used to eat dinner there fouror five days a week.
Lived in the hotel across thestreet and the luxury suites
drank, spent a lot of moneythere.
And, um, he kind of took aliking to me as like the new

(34:40):
green bartender.
And he put his very, very big,very, very expensive, very, very
Cuban cigar down in the bar.
And he smoked it for a couple ofminutes, then it went out.
So I threw it away and, uh, he,he really, ouch.
I almost lost my job that day.
Yeah,

Anastasia (34:58):
that would be one way of doing it.

Francis (35:00):
And, uh, he's like, well, I, I, he went out, he's
like, yeah, it goes out.
A lot of times he's like, that'sa$25 cigar back in 1986.
And I thought out, out, out.
And I, but I didn't lose my jobthat day, but I should have.
And, uh, that was my beginningmistake.
And Chip still liked you?
Yeah, we got, we amazinglyenough.
Chip still liked you.
We recovered from that, but ittook a little while.

Anastasia (35:20):
So, um, um, I always felt lucky that, that, uh, when
I went for my first bartendingjob, which was a hell of a lot
earlier than that in 1968, uh,that I got lucky because my dad
had taught me how to make adrink

Speaker 3 (35:33):
Uhhuh.

Anastasia (35:33):
So when I walked into this bar in Chicago on Rush
Street, and they said, okay, soshow me how to make a whiskey
eyeball.
Good grief.
Lot of technique there,

Speaker 3 (35:44):
right.
Um,

Anastasia (35:44):
all I had to do is that fill out an application,
prove that I was over 16, and,have a Polaroid taken of me

Francis (35:52):
a Polaroid to

Anastasia (35:52):
see whether or not I looked right for the job.

Francis (35:55):
Oh, that's awesome.
That's illegal now.

Anastasia (35:57):
Yeah, I know.
Thank God.
Yeah, it was kind of cool backthen because he said and went,
wow, I actually look.
Okay, great.

Francis (36:04):
That's funny.
Well, you know, we have to takea quick break, but I hope that
you'll stick with this.
We'll come right back and I, Ido want to talk about some of
the contemporary bartenders inyour book.
This is a brilliant way to, toorganize this, the contemporary,
uh, bartenders in your book andtheir takes on, on these two
iconic, uh, bartenders fromhistory.
Can you stick with us for alittle bit?
Sure.
We'll be back in just a moment.
You're listening to us on therestaurant,
guys@restaurantguysradio.com.

(36:28):
we're having a lovelyconversation with Jared Brown
and Anastatia Miller.
Their current book is The Deansof Drink, the Amazing Lives and
Turbulent Times of Harry Johnsonand Harry Cradock.
Um, you can find out more aboutthe book and actually pick it
up.
We'll give you the link on ourwebsite@restaurantguysradio.com.
Please go there.
we were talking before the breakabout the content in the book is
really great.
Both with the historicalrecipes, putting'em in context

(36:50):
and the, you know, it's anengaging story about the life of
these guys.
you know, it traces twolifetimes, two generations of,
of bartending and, and cocktailculture, uh, in, on two
continents.
But what I've never seen beforeis you went to a lot of
contemporary bartenders, uh,many people who we know and
respect, and you asked thosebartenders about.

(37:12):
How these guys influence theirbartending, and their cocktail
making.
And then they also give somesort of tribute drinks to, uh,
Craddock and Johnson.
First of all, how did you thinkof that?
It's a brilliant idea.
And then talk about some of the,more interesting cocktails and,
and contributions that you gotin those sections.

Jared (37:30):
Cocktail making and bartending though it's got a
great history, it's also aliving history.
Uh, when people talk about acocktail renaissance or a
cocktail golden age, we're inthe midst of the greatest
cocktail golden age in thehistory of bartending

Speaker 3 (37:48):
here, here.

Jared (37:49):
Uh, there's no question without a doubt.
The bartenders, uh, have reachedback and brought back the
professionalism that we saw withJerry Thomas, with Harry
Johnson, with Harry Cradock.
Uh, that's back into theprofession, but they've also got
social media.
They can communicate as neverbefore.

Speaker 3 (38:10):
Right.
Right.
So a

Jared (38:11):
bartender in Brisbane comes up with a fabulous new
take on a classic, 20 minuteslater it's being tested at the
Artesian Bar, at the LanghamHotel in

Speaker 3 (38:21):
London.
Right, right, right.
And

Jared (38:22):
then it leaps over to a place in New York.

Speaker 3 (38:25):
Yep,

Jared (38:25):
It's just, it's wonderful to see.
Passion traveling at thosespeeds.
And so we just, we couldn'tresist reaching out and letting
a lot of other people who lovethese same historic bartenders
join us in a tribute.

Anastasia (38:42):
it's also the point of trying to get people to
understand that a certain levelof universality, not
homogeneity.
Sure.
Uh, attached to a lot of classiccocktails.
And rather than just replicatingit, uh, the person's taken it,
done some regional fixes.
Just because how it's differentin every single country, every

(39:04):
single place you go.
And, uh, but, but definitelykeeping the tone, the flavor,
and just making it much morefamiliar and more comfortable to
the person's customers.
that was the point we wanted tomake.
'cause there was a certain pointin our history back in the
nineties where everybody wantedto replicate precisely what they
had in Ike.
In a book.

(39:24):
Yeah.
Well that is kind of uselessbecause the booze is better now.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
Right?
The

Anastasia (39:28):
ingredients are better now.

Speaker 3 (39:29):
Right.

Anastasia (39:30):
so we'll never be able to replicate perfectly any
recipe you find in any cocktailbook.

Jared (39:36):
thank goodness, because basically what we have today is
better drinks in the end thanthey had.
A hundred years ago.

Francis (39:45):
You know, I think it's interesting from an
anthropological perspective totry and replicate what was
there.
we started our cocktail programin 92 and we were looking at
historical recipes or evenrecipes from other bartenders,
and we rejigger them slightly.

Mark (39:58):
My own recipes change depending on what ICE I'm using
or how if the lime is sweet ornot sweet.

Francis (40:04):
Oh.
Or you know.
Oh yeah.
And the other thing is, what Ithink a lot of folks are think
have been realizing now is in,in.
Depending on what brand ofspirit you use.
Mm-hmm.
You know, there's, there aretequila and there's tequila,
there's gin, and there's gin.
You know, and,

Anastasia (40:17):
oh, don't remind me.
Well, I mean, you guys knowQuila

Francis (40:20):
we changed tequilas.
We had a tequila from a veryrespected brand that changed
ownership recently, and Thefirst thing that went was their
sort of B level tequila.
That was our house tequila,which had been a great buy and
gave the flavor we wanted forour recipes.
And all of a sudden ourcocktails were different.
And even if it had gotten betterinstead of worse, it's still
different and you've still gottachange the cocktail, you know.

(40:42):
So talk to us about who were thepeople that you spoke to in this
book who you thought, wow, thatperson made a great contribution

Anastasia (40:48):
Uh, Alex, Alex Ena and Monica Burke.
Alex Ena is the head bartenderfor the Artesian Bar at the
Langham Hotel in London.

Francis (40:56):
Been there several times.
Uh, his

Anastasia (40:57):
girlfriend Monica, is uh, the bar manager for the
aquavit.
Bar in Oslo, Norway.
Huh.
And, you know, just watchingwhat happened when the two
events said, okay, here's twodifferent takes on exactly the
same concept.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
Mm-hmm.
I had

Anastasia (41:13):
to congratulate them for batting heads.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
Right, right.

Anastasia (41:15):
Backwards and forwards.

Francis (41:16):
Do you remember the drink that Alex contributed?

Anastasia (41:20):
Cima.

Speaker 3 (41:21):
And,

Anastasia (41:22):
uh, in Chrisman, but Chris Anima and it's, uh,
Benedictine, Sue Bruno de uh,and a Salvatore d Stein.

Francis (41:33):
What is that last thing you just said?
I, right

Anastasia (41:35):
now,

Francis (41:37):
and

Mark (41:38):
So those of you listening may not have heard of Sue's
before.
Sue's is now available in theUnited States.
Again, it's, it's, uh, Ian beout there bitter.
Yeah.

Francis (41:44):
Delicious.

Mark (41:45):
I

Anastasia (41:45):
used to have to bring it in, uh, from the UK for my
friend Audrey Saunders.
'cause she couldn't get anyunless she was over here and,
you know, visiting and juststicking more stuff in her
luggage or over.

Francis (41:55):
Do you want hear, do you wanna hear something a
little parallel in our lives?
There was a time when she, thePegu Club first opened that.
They for some reason didn'thave, Laird's bottled and Bond
Apple Brandy available in NewYork.
And I met what Really?
Yeah, the bottle and bond wasn'tavailable for like six or eight
months.
And so all they could get wasthe regular stuff.
And so I would bring some likein a trench coat and be like,
here's the bottled, you know,

Jared (42:17):
fabulous.
In the back.

Francis (42:19):
It's not as, not as exotic as yourself.
Well, listen guys, I think thebook is terrific, uh, and I, and
we're, and we recommend it veryhighly.
If you're listening out thereand, and listening to land, and
you want the title one moretime, it's the Deans of Drink,
the Amazing Lives and TurbulentTimes of Harry Johnson and Harry
Cradock.
Those are not the only people inthis book.
There's a cast of.
Characters from the days of yourand a lot of great contemporary
bartenders.

(42:39):
Um, there are tremendous recipesin this book, um, which you
should use as a guide and, andadjust yourself in your own way.
And if you look at thecontemporary bartenders, you
should visit their bars at somepoint.
If you can.
You're in striking distance andyou'll find yourself at some of
the best bars being serviced,some of the best bartenders in
the world.

Jared (42:55):
If you want to drop into a great legacy bar, Harry
Johnson's nephew.
Opened a place on 36th Streetand sixth Avenue, New York.
It's still open today.

Francis (43:09):
What's it called?

Jared (43:10):
Keen Steakhouse.
Oh.

Speaker 3 (43:12):
Oh,

Francis (43:12):
that's funny.
Yeah, I've, I've spent many anevening that I remember the
beginning of at Keen Steakhouse.
That's funny.

Jared (43:18):
And if you peek, if you peek behind the bar, that's
basically.
The bar as illustrated in HarryJohnson's bartender's manual.

Francis (43:26):
That's really fascinating.
It's wonderful.
That,

Mark (43:28):
and, and now you just put, you just connected two dots for
me.
Thank you very much.
Yeah, that was

Francis (43:32):
really great.
That's really great.
Anastatia and, and Jared, thankyou for joining us on the show.
Your book is great.
You've been great company.
Thanks for having us and uh,thanks very much guys.

Anastasia (43:40):
Thank you for inviting us

Francis (43:41):
and I'm sure we'll see you around on the circuit.
You guys stick with us.
We'll be back in just a moment.
You're listening to theRestaurant
guys@restaurantguysradio.com.

Mark (44:22):
I

Francis (44:22):
like those guys.

Mark (44:23):
They're great.
Yep.
That was a lot of fun.
That was a lot of fun.
Well, they're, they, you know,they really know their history.

Francis (44:28):
They do.
You know, I've loved theirbooks.
We've crossed paths with, we'vebeen within 10 feet of them.
Mm-hmm.
Probably 30 times and just.
For some reason we've never,we've never really connected.
I, I was

Mark (44:37):
actually out a seminar at Tales of the Cocktail that
Anastatia was one of thepanelists.
Uhhuh,

Francis (44:42):
well, they're super smart people and they're super
fun people we know now, andtheir books are great.
I really do recommend it.
It's funny, as you're looking atall this stuff, one of the
things that's been veryimportant is I remember our
friend Duch Zark once said at aseminar that he and I were
giving together.
Um, and he, he was talking aboutbartending, bartending versus
mixology and he said, listen,you have to bartend, you have to

(45:04):
tend the bar.
And that means tending thepeople at the bar and then
bringing them the drinks and youneed to have that expertise to
make the drinks to, but youknow, he said, there are so many
guys.
And I said,'cause we, thisdiscussion started when I was
talking about.
I was at a place and these guyswere mixologists, but they
weren't bartenders and they werepissing me off.
I'm like, you make an excellentdrink, but I think you're an
asshole.
I'm never coming back hereagain.

(45:25):
Congratulations.
You know, as opposed to, Hey,this drink isn't very good, but
that's a really nice guy.
Maybe I'll come back someday.
You know, if you can only haveone, I'll take the bartender.
And Duchant said to me, uh, andit's, I can't do Duch, Sean's
accent, but everything has alittle more weight in Chen's
accent.
And he said, you know, the worldis full of all these people
that, uh, instead of learninghow to take care of people, they
try to know exactly how many.

(45:45):
Hairs Jerry Thomas had on hismustache, and they think that
makes them a good bartender.
there was for a time, and thisis gratefully, this is fading
away.
A number of people who were sointerested in looking at the
past, knowing everything aboutthe past, and recreating the
past that that you lose thepoint.
You know, cocktails are not amuseum, but you look at the past
to be informed about the past,to make that part of your

(46:08):
present and bring things intothe future, you know?

Mark (46:10):
You know, you were exactly right.
You can't do Duch Sean's accent.

Francis (46:14):
I didn't try.
That wasn't even me trying.
You almost tried.
Would've been ridiculous.
Honestly,

Mark (46:18):
my favorite part of the whole show was them putting
together for me that picture ofHarry Cradock standing in front
of the bar.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And putting it together with.
That's the Keen's Chop Housebar.

Francis (46:29):
Harry Johnson his nephew is, did the Keen's Cho
Chop House bar.
But yes, that's where thelineage goes back.
But that's,

Mark (46:34):
I mean, that's, that's unbelievable.
I mean, that's, it just, justput that all together for me.
you can almost see it well inyour mind's eye

Francis (46:41):
and, you know, Keen's Chop House.
We spent many evenings at KeenChophouse, many afternoons.
We went out for lunch to King'sChophouse and wound up being
there many, many evenings.
That was a, that was

Mark (46:51):
a place that, that Francis and I.

Francis (46:53):
Do you know that the guy who built when single malt
scotches were sort of mm-hmm.
Returning to America in theeighties.
The guy who put the scotchcollection there, and it's one
of the best scotch collectionsin the city for many, many
years, was our friend Cory Hill,who, who was also bartender and
sold, I remember early

Mark (47:11):
in the nineties being introduced to Spring Bank
scotches at Keen's Chop House byCory Hill doing a whole spring
bank tasting.
Yeah.
And, uh, saying, wow, these are.
Yeah, these are special andinteresting and maybe my new
favorites,

Francis (47:23):
wild stuff, King's Chop House.
Famous for the mutton chop.
Mutton chop.
Is it not really a mutton chop,but you know, not really a lamb
chop item.
It's like, it's like a lamb.
It's like a big lamb chop, alutton chop or laly mutton chop.
Yeah, it's good, but it'sdelicious.
in this book you have AdaColeman who was the head
bartender at the Savoy Hotel inLondon before, Harry Cradock and

(47:43):
they worked there together,right?
Another gentleman in this bookis the current head bartender at
that hotel who's a guy namedEric Lorincz, and I was at that
hotel with him last year or theyear before last.
He's a great and talentedbartender, and one of the things
they have on their cocktail menuthere.
Is they have a list of formerhead bartenders going all the
way back to Ada Coleman.

(48:05):
So it's like, you know, thepresidents of the United States,
you know, there's a history ofthe bar that that really reaches
very far back in time.
It's like

Mark (48:12):
the presidents of the United States.
Well, no.
Is that the analogy you reallywant to use?
But, you

Francis (48:16):
know, it's, it's, it's like the, the era, it's a
continuous cycle.
It's been handed from one bar,one head bartender to the other.
And they take it very seriously.
And it really is like reachingback into history and it's,
it's, um, you know, it's keepinghistory alive and going well.
I hope you guys have enjoyedthat more than Mark and, uh,
and, uh, I hope we see you againnext week.

(48:38):
Um, the name of the book isDean's A Drink.
Uh, you can find it on ourwebsite, restaurant guys
radio.com.
Visit there early and often.
I'm Francis Shot.
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurantguys@restaurantguysradio.com.

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Brown & Miller Talk Cocktail History and Bartending Legends V

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Brown & Miller Talk Cocktail History and Bartending Legends *V*