George Motz’s Hamburger America

The Banter

The Guys discuss cookout foods for the 4th of July. Find out Mark’s cheat code for eating hotdogs.

The Conversation

The Restaurant Guys welcome George Motz, hamburger historian and operator of Hamburger America in NYC. George tells the story of his steady rise to expertise (and fame) and shares his passion for creating an authentic, multi-napkin burger experience. 

The Inside Track

The Guys recently visited Hamburger America and found George at the flat top making burgers. They particularly enjoy George’s featured hamburgers that he, along with the current creator, craft to be exactly like the iconic burgers found around the U.S. George tells how he had to re-create one that had not been served in years: The Doodle Burger.

George: Between his memory, my memory and my photos, we actually did this sort of food forensics figuring out exactly what went into this burger. To the point where when he had the first bite of that burger, he cried

Francis: Oh, oh, that's amazing. I love it! It's like you're the Jurassic Park of Hamburgers.

-George Motz on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2025 

Bio

George Motz is an American television personality, burger flipper, author and filmmaker. George directed the 2004 documentary film Hamburger America and has written books detailing the history of the hamburger in the United States. He hosted the Travel Channel show Burger Land from 2012 to 2013. He is a contributor for First We Feast on YouTube with a series titled Burger Scholar Sessions. He is also the owner and head chef of Hamburger America, a luncheonette-style restaurant in SoHo, Manhattan.

Info

George’s site

https://www.georgemotz.com/

Hamburger America, NYC

https://www.hamburgeramerica.com/

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Episode Transcript

Mark (00:11):
Hello everybody and welcome.
You are listening to therestaurant guys.
I'm Mark Pascal and I'm herewith Francis Shot.
Together we own stage left inKaha Lombardi restaurants in New
Brunswick, New Jersey.
We're here to bring you theinside track on food, wine, and
the finer things in life.
Hello there, mark.
Hey buddy.
How are you doing?
I'm good.
Do you know that little introalways reminds me of the radio
days?
Yeah, we the radio.

(00:31):
Field and the whole way we didthis, we did this intro from day
one.
I think it was the very firstday, you wrote that out for me.
Yeah.
Said, here, try this.

Francis (00:41):
Yeah.
It's become, it's become, uh,ubiquitous in our heads anyway,
but, you know, five days a week,that was a, there's a lot of
shows.
It's 500 shows anyway, but itgives the podcast, the OG feel
of a radio.
Program'cause the podcast is og.
Yeah, it's, we are OGs.
Um, we have another OG coming onthe show today.
Stick around for George Moats.
George Moats is America'sforemost expert on one of our

(01:03):
favorite topics, the hamburger.
no joke really.
The guy who wrote a book, hewrote Hamburger in America.
He's on television shows, he'sdone documentaries.
He's, traveled the country andhe knows more than anybody else
about the hamburger and veryexcitingly, he just opened his
first restaurant calledHamburger America in New York
City.
And it's.
Great.
And he's there and we'll, we'lllet him tell you all about it a

(01:23):
little

Mark (01:24):
later.
Yeah.
It really, really cool story.
Make sure you, you stick aroundand listen even if we're really
boring for the next five or 10minutes.

Francis (01:29):
But in the spirit of point, counterpoint, mark has a
topic he wants to talk about.
Yeah.
I want opening.
Yeah.
Wanna to talk about, I want talkabout the July

Mark (01:34):
4th cookout, you know?
Oh, you didn't, you didn'tphrase it that way.
well I wanna talk about hot dogsfor sure, but I want to talk
about things that you would haveat a cookout and, and hot dogs
are on the list and.
And if you listen to this showat all over the last 20 years,
you know, my favorite hotdog is,is a place in, Clifton called
Ruts Hut.
Yeah, that's great.
Just absolutely right on Route21.

(01:55):
I've been going there, it wasthree miles from my house.
I, I could have walked.
You know, if I, if I needed to,

Francis (02:00):
I think we've talked about this before and we may get
into it a little bit with, withGeorge later.
I don't know if we'll talk aboutdogs at all.
But the great thing about thatis it's basically a fried dog
and it's been there forever.
And talk about og you walk intothat place, you feel like you

Mark (02:12):
stepped into 1955.
Well, I love that, that, that,and I don't know that this is
true, that they say they neverchange the oil that they fry the
hotdog in.
They just keep adding more oilto the oil, so, so it's like the
Sora method

Francis (02:24):
of oil for

Mark (02:25):
like a hundred years.

Francis (02:26):
Oh my goodness.
You know, they, they, they'rehamburger places that do that
too, that they say that it's thesame grease.
I don't know.
I guess I'm okay with that, Iguess.
No, I'm, I don't know.
That's some,

Mark (02:36):
like, like from a, from an intellectual level, I am totally
not okay with, yeah, I don't

Francis (02:40):
know.

Mark (02:40):
But they are spectacular, so there's nothing I can say bad
about it.
That musto relish on there fitsin with the ethos, like greasy
spoon, Alright, so you're gonnacook out for your, for your
house, is there a specific dogyou buy for your house?
'cause they're, you know,they're the Great Jersey dogs.
Ruts And that place Hirums up inFort Lee.
I think it

Francis (02:59):
is.
Yeah.
Our friend Kevin brought usthere.
I've never been there beforeuntil recently.
But there are great dog places.
Right.
And of course we, we have to, wecan't talk about dogs without
mentioning destination dogs,which is Yep.
Here in town.
Destination for Great Dogs.
Absolutely.
Kind of a different thing.
Kind

Mark (03:11):
of a gourmet.
Yeah.
Not that, not the same as

Francis (03:13):
Great Bar.
Great guys.
Uh, really worth making a trip.
we have lunch there.
10 times a year.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well see.
Maybe we'll go there after thisrecording.
This show.
Um, so there's, there's a, a ddogs, we call it lovingly in
town.
Yep.
In Jersey City, there's theworst bar.
W-U-R-S-D, worst bar.
Then we kinda make a living ondogs.
But as far as for your house,um,

Mark (03:33):
it's thons you have to buy.
Yeah, thons for sure is, is, uh,the, the one that I have in that
white, big white package.
If I'm having a cookout, that's,that's gonna be my dog.
I'm gonna bring up another dogto you.
And I, I assume you've had this.
How about the Costco dollar 50dog?

Francis (03:49):
Yep.
It's good filler.
It's filler.
I'm, if I'm in Costco, I'mhungry.
It's a, a way to taste mustard.
Uh, nothing.
Nothing.

Mark (03:55):
Uh, you know what I mean?
I'm gonna say it is certainly aplus level dog.
I'm gonna say in the world ofhot dogs that, that you can buy,
it's an.
Eight plus it.
Well, how do you compare it to areally good New York City dirty
water dog?
Better.
Okay.
A little bit better.
I prefer it to a dirty waterdog.
I prefer it.
We, I used to go to lunch inthis place.

(04:15):
called JJs on Franklin app thatI think he's still there.
I think the truck is stillthere.
And it was fine, but, uh, again,I'd rather have a Costco dog,
which is, which is weird youknow, Costco, anything, I mean
their pizza, sorry.
Costco is some of the mostdisgusting food on earth.
but there's something about thathotdog that I actually still
enjoy.

Francis (04:32):
See, I don't think anything, anything special about
that dog.
It's a fine dog, and I've, I'veeaten them.
I, like I said, I give it an eatand I, I think it's, I think
it's above average, but I'drather have a dog as filler food
than a, than a a fast foodburger.
Like I'm a big fan of Shakeshacks for burgers, but that's a
sit down thing.
But a dog totally portable thedirty water dogs in the city.
Do you know when I have most ofthe hot dogs I eat during the

(04:54):
course of the year?
3:00 AM No, I'm gonna Right.
No, no, no.
That's pizza time, baby.
no, I'm gonna surprise you.
I generally have one or two hotdogs before going to some of the
best wine tastings in the city.
You're, no, I don't know why.
So I, I get up in the morningand the wine tasting starts at
11.
I haven't eaten a thing.

(05:15):
I cannot go in and taste ahundred wines and with, and I
need to put some food in mystomach so it, it, the alcohol
doesn't affect me.
And, you know, I get off thepath train and there's a dirty
water dog on the way.
Can I suggest the pretzel nexttime?
No.
Pretzels won't, won't, you gottahave some protein in there.
But, uh, yeah.
So I, I, the dirty water dogsfor breakfast on the way to wine
tasting, So

Mark (05:34):
other things at the cook that you do at the cookout, I
know I do a more cooking out.
More traditional cooking outthan you do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So my, one of the things I loveto do is ribs.
And basically, you know, slowroast the ribs in the oven for,
for hours and then just givethem that little kiss at the end
on the, on the grills with somehomemade barbecue

Francis (05:53):
sauce.
I don't like, I know, I, but I,I'm, the rest of America
disagrees with me.
I don't like sweet sauces on myfood.
Yeah.
And, uh, they're too messy.
Eh, you that too messy.
Oh, Francis, that's, I don'tlike it messy.
I don't like it.
I don't like to be messy.
Don't like to be messy.
And I knew you were gonna makefun of me and I told, said it
anyway.
Um, so ribs, you can have theribs.

(06:15):
Oh my goodness.
I love ribs.
Oh, they are in my top fivefoods.
How long have you been friends?
You, you don't think that I knowthat you love ribs.
You're always a mess makingribs.
July 4th.
This July 4th, I'm making ribs.
Dude.
Some of the reason I don't likeribs is I look at your face
after you've had ribs and yourfingers and I'm like, I don't
wanna be like that.
That's gross.
So, no, sorry I never told youbefore, but we gotta

Mark (06:36):
be honest with each other.
We're friends.
I, I gotta tell you, I am a,well, again, if you know this
program at all, you know thatI'm a messy eater.
Mm-hmm.
Ribs are my messiest of foods.

Francis (06:46):
You wanna know that.
You wanna know that what you'remissing here.
What's that?
After eating ribs, you aremessy, but the bones seem to
have been steam cleaned.
You know, that was a, that

Mark (06:55):
was my dad.
My

Francis (06:57):
dad.
You're

Mark (06:57):
your dad.
Congratulations.
My dad used to be one of thoseguys, and this is a hundred
percent true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember he was born in, rightbefore World War II in France,
no food, no meat.
And we would go to Chineserestaurants.
Mm-hmm.
And I, and I like Chinese ribs.
Okay.
Yep.
At the beginning of my ribstory.
Yeah.
And he would do the thing, throwthem back on my plate and go,

(07:20):
that's you, you, you, didn't,you, he didn't do a good enough
job.
That rib, so that's the scar.
Yeah.
So now you're, now you're justpoking at my scar.
How's that feel?

Francis (07:28):
I didn't realize it was gonna bring up childhood trauma.
How did World War II getinvolved in that?
I was just said you were messywith the ribs and.
dive bombers are landing inParis.
Geez.
Alright.
let's go back to dogs.
Okay.
Because with a really good dog,the quality of the bun matters.
Now, ah, buns matter.
Supermarket buns.
Okay.
You can't have too much breadto, to dog ratio.

(07:50):
And if you have two thin dog,two dogs on the bundle, even
that out, I, I can I tell you,one of

Mark (07:54):
my cheap coats with a hot dog,

Francis (07:56):
what's that

Mark (07:57):
is I will continuously slide the hot dog up the bun so
I get like more hot dog than bunin each bite, and I'll end up
with half a bun left at the end.
That is so creepy.
it's like a hot dog pop kind ofthing.
Oh, most of the time there's toomuch bread for the hotdog.

(08:19):
Yeah.
So you, I double up the hotdog.
You, oh, I will also double upthe hotdog, but in lieu of
doubling hot.
So basically, basically just,it's a little more hotdog sticks
out, so a little more hotdogsticks out with every bite.
Ingenious.
I can't believe you've nevernoticed.
Never noticed me do that.
Never noticed.
Then I got half a bun at theend.
I could crumple up into the,into little, you get another hot
dog, hot

Francis (08:36):
ball, get another hotdog, got another hot dog.
for me, the real dogs, thereally good dogs.
Um, uh, chili I one chili andreally good cheddar cheese, and
we made one here, chef Rickymade one years ago, we were open
on the 4th of July.
It was a Sunday and we did athing.
A little cookout.
We had a bunch of cookout foodson the menu and uh, he made a
wild boar chili.

(08:57):
Mm-hmm.
Cheese dog with a three rivermachata from our burger.
And we had the, purpose madebuns.
Yep.

Mark (09:03):
And it was, they were, they were fantastic.
Phenomenal.
They were fantastic.
Actually, if you remember, we,we asked the guys from
Destination Dogs if we could.
If we could use their buns, weuse their buns.
That's exactly right.

Francis (09:13):
and the chili cheese dog can do, not do mediocre
chili on the chili cheese dog.
Yes.
It can really be like, medioc.
Don't put a can of chili andpour it on, like, like the, like
the mediocre pizza is still, youknow, relatively edible food.
Mediocre chili cheese dog.
No, absolutely not.
And American cheese is notallowed

Mark (09:29):
on your hot dog.
I, I, I don't disagree with you.
Okay.
There.
Yeah.
Uh, I want to tell you why we'refunny.
'cause we're why we're trulyfunny'cause we have about 10
things on our list to talk aboutfor, uh, for classic barbecue
food another day.
And we have completely used upall our time.
And we need to get George Motzon.

Francis (09:49):
George Mots will be joining us in just a moment and
uh, and you'll have to tune inanother time to hear about all
the other maybe next year, nextJuly 4th.
Alright, we'll do back in just amoment.
I'm Francis shot our MarkPascal.
We don't do this right now.
Do this right now.
We'll, we'll be back in just amoment.
You can always find out moreabout the restaurant
[e-mail].

(10:11):
Hey there everybody.
Welcome back.
Our guest today is George Motz.
He is a burger historian, Emmyaward-winning filmmaker and
author who spent more than acouple of decades traveling
across America, uncovering andpreserving our regional
hamburger traditions.
His documentary HamburgerAmerica was amazing.
We had him on the show rightbefore that launched in 2006,
and now he has a restaurantcalled Hamburger America in New

(10:33):
York City that you need tovisit.
George Motz.
Welcome to the show,

George (10:37):
Thanks for having, having me on.
Appreciate it.
And by

Francis (10:39):
dude.

George (10:40):
Woo hoo.
That was a

Francis (10:41):
Know, right?

George (10:42):
time ago.

Francis (10:44):
19 years.
19 years,

Mark (10:45):
decades my friend.
Decades.

George (10:47):
Wow.

Francis (10:48):
Okay, so let's give people an idea of who George
Motz is, um, because we haven'treposted the old show as we do
sometimes.
but we thought we'd go right tothe, to the news source.
Um, you were an award winningfilmmaker before you made
Hamburger America.
And then Hamburger America comesout the book and the movie.
Well, the movie first and thenthe book.
The right, exactly.
Um, you did it backwards.

(11:08):
Okay.
And then.
And then that goes on for 20years.
I see you on YouTube all thetime and, and it's really
wonderful to see, like duringCOVID I would watch you say,
okay, well here's this iconicburger joint.
This is why it's iconic, andthis is how they do their
burgers.
And then you would basicallymake that burger and now you've
turned that into an actualrestaurant.
I mean, how do, how do you makea career out of being the

(11:30):
America's Burger historian?

George (11:32):
Well, I think the, the only real true secret to my
success has been the speed atwhich I've done things.
If you think you just said 2006,that's a long time.
I mean, we're looking at, youknow, I think I started working
on the film in 2001.
So at this point we're lookingat 24 years from the time that I
sort of accidentally made thisfilm until today.

(11:53):
Um, and so much time has passed.
I didn't, nothing was sped up.
Also, as you know, it wasredundant reverse where I had
the, the film first and then thebook, and then the restaurant.
It wasn't the other way around,but you have a restaurant and
you make a cookbook and

the-restaurant-guys_1_05 (12:05):
Right.

George (12:06):
I did it literally in reverse and I took my time, took
my time.
It is

Mark (12:11):
Yours,

George (12:12):
one of the

Mark (12:12):
George.
Yours.

George (12:13):
I've learned is that if you take your time, you can
literally work anything out andget anybody to believe in what
you're saying.
Just if you go too fast, itjust, you just, you, everything
gets screwed up.

Mark (12:23):
George, yours is the most well researched restaurant in
America.
Okay.
23 years of research till thisis exactly the way I want my
restaurant to be.
And,

Francis (12:34):
and this is no joke when we say research, you know,
it's funny, we're, we're.
Playing a little light with it,but I mean, George researches
the history.
George knows what the burgerwas, who founded it, where it
came from, and then goes thereand learns how to make it.
And so, you know, you're legit,man.
I mean, that I, I, I don't wannamake too much light of like, oh,
we're gonna copy what I justfigured out, you know, in a week
of looking it up.

(12:54):
So,

George (12:55):
No, it's true.
You have to, I think you have tohave a lot of passion for it,
but at the same time, I have tohave a lot of knowledge about
it.
I

the-restaurant-guys_1_05- (13:01):
yeah.

George (13:01):
I tried to define expert once and expert is not someone
who knows a lot of stuff.
Um, an expert is not somebodywho has a lot of passion for
things.
It's both those things togetherwhen you intersect.
Passion and knowledge.
You have an expert.
And what I've been trying to dois I'm trying to become an
expert in this, in the one thingI know, which is hamburgers and
hamburger history.
down to the details.
Like we, we have a, a guest inthe restaurant.

(13:22):
We have a guest burger in therestaurant.
You know, we don't just try tomake the burger, we actually
talk to the people who makethose burgers and make them
exactly the way they would servein the restaurant so that when
you come to the restaurant, myrestaurant, for a short period,
if it's a special on the menu.
You're having a sense memorymoment where you say, oh wow,
this, it tastes like mychildhood.
This tastes exactly as Iremember.
It looks the same, it tastes thesame.
We even go so far as, say we hadthe swenson's galley boy on the

(13:45):
menu, last month, and we evenput the toothpick, pimento
stuffed olive into the burgerthe same exact way they do it in
Ohio.

Francis (13:53):
So.

George (13:54):
you, you go there by say, oh, it's even got the
olive.

Francis (13:57):
Well, so let me, let me clarify for everybody what you
do at the restaurant and, andwe'll work backwards as to how
we got there.
But when you, when you go intoGeorge's restaurant as we did a
couple of months ago to sayhello and, and set up this
interview, um, you basicallywalk back into 1957.
You're at a lunch counter in1957.
George is behind their Maconburgers with his team, and you

(14:18):
can get what you could havegotten at a lunch counter in
1957.
And it's done really well.
But, and, and I really recommendpeople go to this restaurant.
It, the rest, the burgers aregreat because it really is all
about the details.
Oh my God.
But the other thing that'sreally special is you ha you
have like a guest burger whereyou pick another burger from a

(14:38):
specific establishment that hashistorical precedence and you
slavishly reproduce that burgerfour times.
And I've seen on social media,sometimes you'll get the people
from that establishment willcome to New York.
It's a, it's a, it's reallycool.
It's a ton of work for a burger.
So tell us about this, Programand, and, and how you choose the
burgers to do and like thedifferences you'll find in these

(15:00):
iconic burgers.
Because one of the things youcan find from it is, yeah, when
I go into your place in NewYork, having grown up in the
Northeast, I see the burgersfrom my childhood.
I.
I can also go into your placeand see, like you said, the
burgers from somebody in Ohio'schildhood.
It's not my childhood, it's adifferent burger.
Right, true, true Americana.
And you contextualize thedifference.

(15:21):
And it seems like a throwawaytopic, but it's not.
So tell us about the differentburgers you've had and, and how
they differ and what people canlearn from that.

George (15:29):
So we call it the monthly Burger special, and we'd
literally do it once a month.
It's always the first Thursdayof every month, we change the
burger and it becomes a newmonth, new burger, uh, new old
burger that is, um, internallywe actually call it the, uh, I
didn't wanna call it thispublicly.
We internally.
We call it the Hamburger HeroesProgram

the-restaurant-guys_1_05-01 (15:47):
Oh, I love it.

George (15:48):
the idea was that we are celebrating my hamburger heroes.
So people that I have great, thegreatest respect for, because
they've, you know, they've,they've, they've held the torch
for these, for these burgers,um, for so many years, and, and
in many cases don't even reallytruly understand their value.
They're just doing the thingthat grandpa did, or great
grandpa did.
Or their uncle did, uh, to makesure that that thing is still

(16:10):
around.
'cause they know that theircustomers demand it, their
customers go to thoserestaurants, eat those burgers
because it's something familiar.
It's something continuous.
Uh, it's something that theycan, they can believe in.
And I wanna make sure that with,if I am bringing these heroes in
and I'm putting this burger onthe menu, that somebody can go
to my restaurant for a shortperiod of time and have that
same exact experience that theyhave.

(16:30):
At, uh, their favoriterestaurant at home, wherever,
wherever it is.
I mean, just to give you aperfect example, right now we
have the loose meat sandwichfrom Iowa on the menu.
And the loose meat is, isbasically a deconstructed
hamburger.
It's crumbled beef that'sslopped onto a bun with no slop.
It's just, I mean, the only lopit's in, there's a little bit of
beef fat, that's it.
Some salt.
It goes onto a, an uncosted softbun that has.

(16:52):
Uh, mustard, pickle of onion,and that's it.
It gets wrapped up in a piece ofpaper.
It kind of becomes one and itcan, it does fall apart.
So we do serve it with a spoon,but we serve it with a spoon.
'cause that's what they do withthe counter.
If you go to a place calledTaylor's Made right in, uh,
Marshalltown, Iowa, they've beendoing it the same way for almost
a a hundred years.
I think they're up to a hundred.
They're 97 years old now at thispoint.

the-restaurant-guys_1_05-0 (17:12):
Wow.

George (17:13):
I mean, you have to have a burger.
That's a burger.
It's not really a burger, but ifyou have a burger.
That is that old, you have totrust.
You have to trust that, trust,that moment.
And, uh, we, I feel so, I feelso, um, proud to be able to
recreate these burgers, um, andmake it, make it so that not
just the customer is having thesame experience, but also that

(17:33):
the owners of these restaurants,the, the, the, the, the torch
bearers, um, believe in it and,and they actually see that we've
done a great thing.

Mark (17:41):
So one of the things I think, uh, the, the listener
needs to realize, and I'm I'mgonna ask you to elaborate in
just a second, is George is notgoing to, LA Georgia is not
going to, you know, the, the bigcities or Yeah, absolutely.
But he's going to these to.
Americana, he's going to thetiny little towns across the
country.
How many of these little townsdo you think you visited and had

(18:02):
burgers in?
And how many years have you beendoing this, this, this trek?

George (18:07):
So, I mean, the beginning, I, I, I focused on 10
spots for the film and, andended up making it eight
different regional burgers inAmerica.
And there were just greatstories.
There were great burger storiesand great, uh, burger spots.
And I wanted to make sure I washighlighting, profiling.
But then when the movie came outand the film came out in 2004,
um, it was ex, it was receivedvery well by like a kind of a

(18:30):
cultish group of people, uh, whowere just excited of what I was
doing.

Francis (18:33):
Well, thank you.
Yep.
We were, we were members of thatcult.
I dunno if you know this, but wehad you on the radio and
promoted that cult.
It was, it was a fantastic film.

George (18:41):
you're part of the problem

Francis (18:43):
Yeah.

George (18:43):
or part of the, part of the,

Francis (18:45):
Part of

Mark (18:45):
the solution.
We're not part of the solution.

Francis (18:46):
No, that's

Mark (18:47):
true.

George (18:47):
but I mean, from that point on, from about 2004 when
the film came out, ended up onSundays channel, it was on the
PBS for a couple years, uh, theylicensed it, then it started to
really pick up steam and Istarted to do a lot more
research.
Uh, what really started when I,uh, had my first book in 2008.
that was when the guidebook cameout and I had done a lot of
research and it just got biggerand bigger and bigger, and it

(19:08):
went from the, from just blindlyout there trying to find great
burgers, to having fans come tome and say, oh, you, you, this
is your type of burger.
You're gonna love this place.

the-restaurant-guys_1_05 (19:17):
You're right.

George (19:18):
Also, by the way, if you remember, 2006 is kind of early
in the internet.
This no Instagram.

the-restaurant-guys_1_05 (19:22):
Right.

George (19:23):
very low in the social media scale.
Uh, so a lot of this stuff wasdone with just maps and, you
know, books.
I mean, I read Jay and MichaelStern.
I've got a, I've got an

the-restaurant-guys_1_05 (19:30):
Hello.

George (19:31):
a food, uh, bookshelf full of food books right here.
And, um, I learned a lot frombooks.
Back in the day, we used to readpaper maps.
We drove around the country.

Francis (19:39):
Ja.
Jane and Michael Stern also wereguests on the show.
Yeah, they were great promotingyour books were, they were
great, but you spec, but theydid like Americana Overall, you
are specifically in burgers andI, so I have to say, I wanna pay
you a compliment then I want toask a, a kind of follow up
question.
The, the compliment I wanna payis

Mark (19:54):
j George.
Be careful.
Whenever he pays me a, acompliment, there's a zinger
that comes right after.

Francis (19:59):
Yeah.
That's just, that's just for youthough.
We have to be polite to ourguests.
Um, the, uh, so what you aredoing and, and he, I think it's
really important'cause a lot ofthese places have been around
for a hundred years or 40 yearsor 80 years.
A lot of'em are small familyowned businesses and some of the
ones that you've documentedaren't, aren't around anymore.

George (20:17):
Right.

Francis (20:17):
Um.
You're like, I don't, I thinkit's important because these,
these recipes are preserved,these can now be recreated.
The knowledge is not lost, andoften to the ether.
And look, I know it's justhamburgers, you know, it's not
like a, a great novel, but thisis a bit of the fabric of
America.
I disagree with you.
Hamburgers are like a

Mark (20:37):
great novel.
Okay.
You gotta read better novels.
I'm sorry.
The sun came up early thatmorning.
Oh lord.
And there was, there was a onthe

George (20:45):
I, I,

Mark (20:46):
horizon.

George (20:47):
I do have a great responsibility to hamburger
knowledge in this country forsure, and

Mark (20:51):
Yeah,

George (20:51):
aware of that.
And to this, the program that wehave, the Hamburger Heroes
Program, the, the, uh, monthlyBurger special is very important
to, I, I believe the, uh, thehistory I.
The culinary fabric of, of the,of the hamburger in America.
I think it's very important, um,to the point

the-restaurant-guys_1_05-0 (21:05):
very much so.

George (21:05):
we, we had a really cool one.
We had a, we had a, um, webrought back a burger that has
not been around for 16 years.
It was the Doodle burger fromYankee Doodle in New Haven,
Connecticut.
It's been closed for

Mark (21:15):
amazing.

George (21:16):
and no one's had the burger.
And we had a, we had a, we havea regular comes in.
I, and I swear literally everysingle day with these.
He doesn't come on the weekendtoo crazy on the weekend.
He's there five days a week.
Comes every single day at two30.
And he said to me, he said, youreally should try to make the
doodle burger.
I said, well, there's nobody torepresent the burger because,
uh, because you know, they'regone.
They've been gone for 16 years.
And he said, I'll do it.
I went to Yale in the sixties.

(21:36):
I remember that burger so well.
And between his memory, mymemory and my photos, we
actually did this sort of, thesesort of food forensics and
figuring out exactly what wentinto this burger.
To the point where when he hadthe first bite of that burger,
he cried

Mark (21:51):
Oh, oh, that's amazing.
That guy was at the bar whenthat guy was at the counter.
When we were, when we werethere.
He was around the corner fromus.

George (21:58):
Was he reading the paper?

Mark (21:59):
Yes.
I, I love

Francis (22:02):
it.
It's like you're the JurassicPark of Hamburgers, you know?
So I, so I have to say the um,what made the Doodle burger?
The doodle burger,

George (22:12):
So

Francis (22:12):
was special about it?

George (22:13):
The doodle burger was made of very cheap ingredients.
It was, he was not trying toimpress anybody.
He was just trying to get reallytasty, greasy burger out there
as fast as possible.
But specifically, a doodle is a,is a thin, a very thin, small
patty smashed, pressed thin, uh,cooked on a flat top and served
on a toasted cheap bun, cheapwhite bun, white squishy bun,

(22:35):
uh, with nothing more thanwhite.
American cheese, a, a slice of,uh, like a mealy tomato.
Um, and some onions actually, hewould take, he would slice
onions pretty thin, and when hepressed the burger onto the flat
top, he, he would press theonions into the burger, kinda
like an Oklahoma onion burger,but not, not the same thing.
It was very, very, you know, twoor three strands of onions.

(22:56):
Flipped over cheese on top.
Served with, um, a little bit ofa red relish on the side, which
took it, that that was thehardest part part.
The hardest part of theforensics was trying to figure
out what was in that little cup.
And went so far as to actuallyget the small paper ramekins and
put the red relish in there.
We figured the whole thing outand I realized if you're sitting
at the counter, you and you, ifyou went to Yale or you're from

(23:18):
New Haven, you did that thingthat they did back in the day
where you'd pick up the ramekinand just turn it upside down and
squeeze it and.
Some people would do that, and Isay, oh, you must've gone to
Yale.
And I say, yeah, I went to Yalein, in the eighties, and like,
yeah, I missed this burger somuch.
But if someone looked at theplate and said, what is this red
stuff?
What's it for?
Like you, you're not from NewHaven.

Mark (23:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You don't get it.
You're a first timer,

Francis (23:39):
so I.

George (23:39):
burger.
So it was, we right down to thede right down to the details and
right down to that, that littlepaper in of, um, uh, of, uh, red
Relish made it perfect.

Francis (23:49):
I encourage people to watch your YouTube channel and
to read your books and, and, butto go to your place, the burgers
we had at your place, we broughtthe, we brought our senior staff
to your place.
We all had burgers.
Everything everybody had wasloved by everyone.
And we're our hard,

George (24:01):
you.

Francis (24:01):
uh, crowded please.
But I have to say, I waslistening to you describe the
loose meat burger, uh, and Ithought, well, that sounds kind
of gross.
And, and, and, and, and, uh,

George (24:10):
You're

Francis (24:10):
what?
He's, he's so fancy.
Oh, you just have no idea,George.
But I'm sure if George servedit, it must have been great.
But some of our best foods,remember the first time we had
strawberry pasta in on the upperWest side and we're like
strawberry pasta, that's eithergonna be a train wreck or it's
gonna be brilliant.
And it was brilliant and we'vehad it on our menu for 20 years
now.
But, but that burger.

(24:32):
Sounds really weird.
Um, what are the, what are, whatare like the best burger or two
that you've come across thatutilize a method of making
that's not everywhere?
Like what are the, what's thecool thing that you're like, oh,
well, in, in Sheboygan they makea Sheboygan burger that's, you
know, made in a blender.
I don't know.
What, what, what do you got?

George (24:52):
Close.
Not in a blender, but it's madewith a brat.
That's a good one.
That's a great one.
I, I've come across a lot ofburgers.
Are you talking about in therestaurant with what?
Which ones we've recreated

Francis (25:00):
in, in your research across America, what are the
burgers that you found that werelike, maybe, uh, you wouldn't
think that a burger would bemade that way, and you're like,
oh, this is a national treasurethat people don't know about.

George (25:09):
many.
I wouldn't even know where tobegin.
I mean, some of the obvious oneswould be we, and we did bring it
to the restaurant, was Ted'ssteamed cheeseburger.
Uh, the steamed cheeseburger isa very unique burger'cause it's
not cooked any sort of mayardreaction.
The beef is, you know, the beefis literally steamed in this, in
a case, uh, in this metal lookslike a filing cabinet.
Um, and we actually brought in,we brought in, um, we borrowed

(25:30):
one of the steaming cabinetsfrom Ted's and Merit in
Connecticut and made and madethem for, for a month on, on,
uh, at my restaurant.
And it kind of made peoplecrazy.
cooks were, it was I completelythe opposite of any way you'd
make a burger.
And it took them a while, um,uh, to get up to speed on that
one.
And it was very, veryfrustrating at first, but we, we
figured it out.

(25:51):
We had a lot of fans.
It was, it was a very, it was a,you know, very, uh, it was a
mild curiosity, I think, to thisburger,

Mark (25:57):
So you're saying maybe don't go the first day of the
new monthly burger.
Maybe wait two or three days andthen.

George (26:03):
Hey, that's not true.
We actually, we work it out.
We do it.
I mean, that was the only one wehad a, the, the learning curve
was a little bit steep, but forthe most part, we test this
burger three times before we golive.
And when I say live, we havethat person come in, the, my
hamburger hero comes in for the,for the actual launch, for a
press conference the day beforewe launch it.
And they work with us to makesure we've got all the details
right.

(26:23):
Uh, the perfect example is wehad the, we brought in Glen Ber
from SO'S in, um, in Milwaukee,and we, you know, they cut the
burger in half.
That's what, that's what theydo.
We we're gonna do

Francis (26:32):
Is that the butter burger place's?

George (26:34):
The butter biscuit, the home

Francis (26:34):
Yeah.

George (26:35):
burger, right?
And we just served it with hisstewed onions, which is nothing
more than just literally onionstewed and butter and water.
Um, and a little bit of salt.
I think that's it.
Um, and then, uh, a big, bigdollop, uh, two or three
tablespoon dollop of softWisconsin butter.
So we had all the details there,ready to go.
Made the burger.
And, uh, we, you know, we weredoing it our way.
We're just cutting it in halfand then picking up the pieces

(26:55):
and putting them on the plate,and he says, what are you doing?
I said, well, I, we had to geton the plate somehow.
He said, no, watch this.
And he puts the burger, he putsthe plate underneath the cutting
board and slides and drops theburger onto the plate.
So he didn't make

the-restaurant-guys_1_05-01 (27:06):
Oh,

George (27:07):
So,

the-restaurant-guys_1_05-01 (27:08):
oh.

George (27:08):
those little details, we need those details from my
hamburger heroes, otherwisewe're not gonna get it.
Right.

Francis (27:14):
And you brought in the, the cardiac panels for that one
as well, like for the, if theyneeded a, we needed a jump.

Mark (27:19):
You were ready?
we're gonna come back on theother side and we're gonna talk
about the details of yourburger.
And we're gonna, we're alsogonna talk a little bit about
another burger that we reallylove that, we think needs to be
on your

Francis (27:30):
list.
We'll be back in just a momentwith our, uh, hamburger Hero,
George Motz.
don't go away.
Hey everybody, welcome back.
And for those of you who can seeus on, uh,, video, we have a
couple of burgers in front ofus.
And we didn't warn George so hedoesn't have one in front of
him.
I feel rude,

George (27:45):
A

Francis (27:46):
but,

George (27:46):
of water.

Francis (27:47):
but 21, 21 years been trying to get George Moats to
come to New Brunswick and haveone of these burgers.
So we've, we resorted to this.
So

Mark (27:54):
now we're gonna tease them.
Alright.
First rule, our burger needs twonapkins.
All right.
One for the lap.
One for the nick.
Okay, because I gotta worktonight.

Francis (28:05):
I don't know.
Does this look, does this lookgood to you?
If you can see in listener land,that's,

George (28:08):
Nice.
Whoa,

Mark (28:09):
it's like gu

George (28:10):
burger.

Mark (28:11):
a gule on our burger.
Little, little bit of Chipotlemayo here.
Yeah, so, so, uh, Francis has agu Charlie burger.
I have an Amish bacon burger,little Chipotle mayo.
I am not afraid to make.
Make the ketchup mayo blend ontop.
Nice.
That's definitely, we have, uh,lettuce and tomato that I'm
would normally use, but I'm notgonna use'cause it's messy and

(28:32):
I'm gonna try not to spill on methis trip.

Francis (28:35):
Okay.
So George, in your travelsacross American and your, your
research has historically in theburgers, are there burgers that
you never got to, that you'veread about, that you were like,
ah, I wish I before that placewent outta business in 1957, I,
I could have gotten there.
What are the great lost burgersof.

George (28:53):
I mean there, there are, sadly, there's a lot of burger
places that have closed over theyears.
I've made it to a bunch of them.
I'm trying to think if I havethis one.
I haven't been to, not really.
I mean, I think, I feel likethe, you go back, way back.
I mean, go back.
I wish I had gone to LionelSternberg's, uh, spot called the
right spot in Pasadena, whereapparently the nice look, that

(29:13):
looks good.
I wish I'd gone to LionelSternberg's, uh, the right spot,
which is in Pasadena.
Where apparently thecheeseburger was invented, I
would've loved to go there.
That would've been amazing.
But that, of course, went outtabusiness many years ago.

Mark (29:26):
I thought the cheeseburger was made at that place where
the, where the burgers arecooked sideways.
Louis's lunch.

George (29:31):
No, there's actually no cheese in that burger unless
you, if

Mark (29:33):
Ah,

George (29:34):
cheese.

Mark (29:35):
cheeseburger versus Hamburger

George (29:36):
Yeah.
So that was hamburger.

Mark (29:38):
Hamburg.

George (29:39):
So the first hamburger, we don't know.
The history is very, verynebulous.
Um, I, we do know that ithappened well before Louis's
lunch.
Uh, we have, we have actualprinted proof.
We have, um, uh, I, I have, Ihave on my wall in the
restaurant, the earliest knownmention of hamburger in print.
Um, and it was the nine, I thinkin 1893 in, in Reno, Nevada, uh,

(30:01):
mentioned in, in an ad for abar.
so

Mark (30:05):
George.

George (30:05):
of, that unfortunately is not great for Louis's lunch
having that claim though.
Louis's Lunch is the oldestcontinually operating hamburger
restaurant in America.
They've been open for, well nowa hundred and 125 years.

Mark (30:16):
Just so you know, you are the foremost expert in
hamburgers in America, so youget to just decide what the
first burger place was

George (30:24):
I wish, but

Mark (30:24):
at.

George (30:24):
like to keep it, keep it open and I keep hearing and
every, it's amazing how everyonce in a while someone will
send me a new news clip.
In fact, we actually had one onthe wall when we first opened
up.
That was 1894.
And, uh, somebody sent me a, aclip they found from 1893 and we
go back a few months.
Uh, and, and I now, I had totake off the wall and replace it
with this, this is the oldestmention of hamburger and print

(30:44):
it, it, who knows what's gonnahappen next.
I do believe that it wasinvented, sort of at the same
time.
Who knows where?
Uh, likely at a state fair, uh,on a bunch of state fairs in the
Midwest.
Uh, it was, it was actually, itwas ethnic German food that came
from Germany, uh, in the 18,1880s, uh, and 1870s, 1880s.
And it was eaten with a knife ona fork.
There was no bun.

(31:05):
It was the Americans, uh, whoput the, were the first to put
it on a bun.
And I also believe it wasbecause of the hot dog.
Um, if you're serving food at afair, you don't wanna eat with a
knife and a fork.
Can you imagine the guy with aknife and a fork, sees a hot dog
walk by, and like, why can't weput the Hamburg steak on a piece
of bread?
that's how it was actuallyinvented, but it probably
happened at the same time over acourse of, you know, summers at

(31:26):
state fairs.

Francis (31:27):
It is funny.
We play this game with, um, j

Mark (31:30):
excuse Francis' full mouth, but he's, but he is
literally eating a burger onwhile we, while we go.
It, it's, it's part of the shownow, mark, because the burgers
with your idea, um, make thelisteners will be coming, make a
reserv.
Dinner stage left tonight.
It's, uh, stage left.com.
Um, so, um, no, we, we play thisgame with, uh, the co, the word
cocktail and you talk to Davidwdr and Dale DeGraff and the

(31:50):
research of like, oh, this wasthe earliest mention of the
cocktail, oh, wait a second.
That was the earliest mention ofthe cocktail, but we don't know
quite where that comes from aswell.
It's fun to, it's fun to keepexploring the history.
But we talk about old things.
One of the things we talkedabout on our show a while ago,
which was 20 years ago, was thatthe place, the places that use
old grease, that you, that justcontinually replace the grease

(32:13):
in, in an ever ending cycle.
Can you tell people about that?
I think that's horrifying andwonderful.
I.

George (32:17):
No, it's wonderful.
I mean, it's actually, it's uh,it's, I mean, it's always clean.
I mean, I think the, of grease,uh, is, uh, probably due to, you
know, just they have to keep itfresh, obviously.
But, you know, there's some DNAin there somewhere, uh, in all
these places of the originaltime that they use that, that
cooking device, whatever it is.

(32:37):
I mean, you've got a lot, Imean, you've got Dyers in
Memphis that would actually cookin Greece.
They cook in, uh, in, in beeftallow.
Um, you've got, um, the, the,the, uh, the hamburger wagon in
Miamisburg, Ohio.
Same thing.
They cook in, in a big skillet,full, full of grease.

Francis (32:53):
And they don't change the grease, they just add new
grease and filter it and justkeep going.

George (32:57):
good question.
I don't know how they, what theydo, but they definitely, you,
there's no way to get rid of itall.
They wanna use the same over andover again.
They probably change it.
If it's not looking good, itsmells weird.
Um, but a lot of these guys,they don't, they, they keep
exactly the way it is.
I mean, you've got, um, there'sso many, I mean, um.
in Ohio is a place called now.
Now you're testing me here.
Uh, it's in Urbana Urbana, Ohio.

(33:18):
And they've been doing, again,the same thing.
They've been, they've been, theycook in a tank.
Um, I'm a lot of places, uh,another place in Ohio, a lot of
places in Ohio, cook, cook inGreece.
Um, so another place in Troy,Ohio, same thing, cooks in a
small tank.
Uh, but I mean, something to besaid for that.
I mean, it's like, you know,it's, it's, if I think if you
keep it at the righttemperature, it's okay.

the-restaurant-guys_1_0 (33:35):
Mm-hmm.

Mark (33:37):
All right, so people who are looking at our burgers are o
obviously know that it's a verydifferent thing than the, than
the burger you make.
Uh, talk to us about your burgerand how you make your burger,
and what makes that.
Hamburger America's Burger thatdifferent from the other places
that are making a smash

Francis (33:56):
burger.
Ours is a, for those of youaren't follow, don't look at our
Instagram, whatever.
It's ours.
Burger is a very thick burger.
It's quite, it's, you know, it'sa, it's a thick restaurant
burger.
It takes you 25 minutes to getit, you know, but it's a very
different thing than a lot ofthe burgers that you talk about.
Can you talk about the twodifferent styles of burgers?

George (34:11):
Yeah, so you, your burger looks substantial, which
is great.
That's a very, that's a very, Imean, there are many different
types of burgers out there.
Um, we ha we sat down, I satdown with some friends of mine
who are restaurant people, um,to try to figure out how to, uh,
what was, what would be the, theright way to make this
restaurant happen?
What would represent me well,what would sell well?
Uh, and we, we weighed all theoptions and came up with the

(34:32):
burgers that you, the twoburgers you've seen on the menu,
which are classic smashburger.
And, uh, the Oklahoma Fra OnionBurger, which we call just the,
the Onion Burger, uh, GeorgeMoses' Frat Onion Burger.
Um, because it's not exactlylike a fried onion burger.
It's a little bit different, alittle, little deeper.
Maybe we go a little furtherthan Oklahoma does.
Uh, but the idea is they'resimple burgers with very simple
ingredients, and we wanted tomake sure that we could cook for

(34:53):
speed.
Uh, we, we get this in history.
The best, the best burgers werethe ones that were cooked very
quickly back in the day and turnof the century.
The burgers that were, that youcould serve more people to.
Were the ones that were gonna bethe most successful.
And then you get to White Castlein the 1920s, and it was
literally all about speed.
Sliders were tiny.
They could cook fast, and youcould serve thousands and

(35:15):
thousands a day, and that'swhere we wanted to be.
I wanted to be in a be in theposition where we could sell a
lot of burgers, but we couldalso, um, honor, history, and,
uh, to do that, it was going tobe a smaller, quick, quick
cooking burger.
Now the onion burger is notcooked so quickly.
The Onion burger actually takesbetween six and a half to eight
minutes to cook.
It's not

Mark (35:32):
That's a long time.
That's a very long

George (35:34):
So we have, we have them going, you know, they're, we
have a, we have a back line.
It's full of burgers and it'scooking, and they're, they're
coming off quickly becausewe're, we're anticipating
what's, what the orders that arecoming in.
Um, but a lot of times if you'reat the, if you're at the front
counter and you're sitting atthe counter and we're cooking
for you, the minute you order aburger, that's when it goes on.
You're not, no one's waiting.
You're not waiting for a burgerexcept for those eight minutes.
Um,

the-restaurant-guys_1_05- (35:53):
Yeah.

George (35:54):
we make is a classic.
It's only has a few ingredientson it.
It's literally just, it's justbeef.
Cheese and a bun, and that's it.
A toasted bun.
Uh, you can add to it and youget, get it all the way, which
is where it comes with, um,diced onion, mustard pickle,
which to me, I call it, I, Irefer to that as sort of the um,
uh, the Midwestern trilogy fortoppings.
That really is, that creates aflavor profile, uh, with the

(36:15):
beef and the butter on the bun.
That is.
Very, very Midwestern and very,to me, very classic.
Goes back a hundred years.
I mean, that's a flavor that isvery, um, understandable to a
lot of people in America thatknow they have the burger they
remember is that's what ittastes like

Francis (36:30):
Well, it strikes me that most of the classic burgers
and the historical burgers inAmerica are thinner burgers that
you can cook rather quickly.
But the the, you know, ourburger fits in a genre of
burger, which is like thesteakhouse burger.
You know what I mean?
The burger that takes 20 minutesto cook, it's thick.
It's a meal in and of itself.
You would never get two of them.
You couldn't have two.
That's for sure.
When did that sort of comeabout?
Or were there any old burgersthat were made that way?

(36:52):
Because I think they were,there, were started, there were
other places that make them,there are other places that make
them in this style.
So we've been making Arch for 32years now.
Um, but there were other Burgburgers in this style back then
and still now.
When did, when did, when didthat style of Burger come about?

George (37:06):
So I believe it had started with steakhouses,
especially in New York and bigcities, uh, probably Chicago,
uh, with where burgers were.
Um, you could take, uh, steakcuts.
And, um, this idea of smashing aburger was actually seen as sort
of wage earner, you know, bluecollar burger.
It was seen as something you didquickly just'cause you're, you
know, may feed the crew at therestaurant that, but you
wouldn't necess necessarilyserve a customer of that.

(37:27):
But, and if you're taking steakcuts and you're grinding'em
into, uh, grinding them andmaking a patty out of it, you're
probably gonna make a thickpatty.
So, mean, good question.
I mean, it's, uh, betweensteakhouses and New York City
pubs, probably back in theforties, thirties and forties,
there were times whenever theywould make a, a.
You know, a hand pattied, thickpatty burger, throw it on a flat
top or in a pan and serve it tosomeone at a bar just to keep

(37:49):
them drinking.

the-restaurant-guys_1_05- (37:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.

George (37:51):
You know, that was the idea.
I was like, they're gonna leaveand go get food.
Why don't we just feed'em here?
You know?
That was the idea.
So that's why a lot of bar, alot of bars in America have,
have small griddles next to thenext, to the,

Francis (38:00):
Just to keep you from leaving.

George (38:02):
Exactly.
And in fact, by, by the way,back in the day, those burgers
were free.
I mean, they would, they wouldhand out free burgers just to
keep people drinking.

Francis (38:10):
That's amazing.
You know, it's funny, we, weharken back to that when we were
looking at our bar.
So again, we hear 30 years.
Our, our bar is a hundred yearsold in, in the first restaurant.
And we were looking at, okay,let's, and we're bringing back
cocktails.
We're we're the oldestcontinuously operated craft
cocktail program in America atstage.
Yeah.
Pretty amazing.
Right?
So, um, but we're like, allright, we're looking into retro

(38:31):
bar stuff.
We're very into that kind ofstuff ourselves.
And um, we are.
Chef back then, and now they'regreat at pickling things.
And we said, let's, we did somepickled eggs, some hard-boiled,
beautiful pickled eggs that weleave on a jar on the bar that
you could see it and you know,you can leave it at room
temperature and just pick'emout.
And we were like, we have tostop that immediately because

(38:53):
what they would, because youcan't, like, you either give'em
away or you charge a couple ofbucks.
You can't charge people for apickled egg very much.
But what you may, or youprobably realize is.
One hard boiled egg.
You're full.
You're not ordering more food,you're taking a, so yeah, we

Mark (39:08):
didn't want

Francis (39:08):
you to do that.
That's where the pickled eggsand the beef jerky used to come
in as well.
Burger, you know.

George (39:12):
Yeah.
Bar food.
Literally the stuff that sat onthe bar.
Uh, just keep people drinking.

Mark (39:16):
I wanna talk about some of the other details you have in
your place.
And I, I really interesting, andagain, a lot of Americana there.
You know, you create a pattymelt, you create a grilled
cheese, you serve yuhu like,like you would've gotten way
back when, except the yuhu nowhas corn syrup instead of sugar.
We can, that's a, for anotherday.
Uh, you serve egg creams andchocolate egg creams and, and

(39:38):
true, you know, the things youwould've found in a place like
that in the, in the forties andfifties and I, you really hit a
lot of the details.

George (39:45):
Thank you.
Thanks very much.
I mean, also there's a detailthat you probably didn't notice

Mark (39:50):
All right.

George (39:50):
easy to see the u who it taste, the U who it's easy to
see the photos in the wall, butwe're sort of like a performance
art in a way.
Um, what's happening is you,you're in there and you're
smelling a little bit, not toomuch.
'cause a lot of the, thank God,most of the smell goes out and
people smell it down the streetbefore you

Francis (40:04):
Yeah, we saw that when we were approaching.
We're like, oh, we're close.
We're close.
Tremendous.

George (40:10):
You can smell it.
Uh,'cause you smell it blocksaway, which is great'cause it
goes four stories up and thenshoots down the street.
So,

the-restaurant-guys_1_05- (40:15):
Yeah.
Nice.

George (40:16):
but, um, just it's a bit of performance art.
You're not catching.
Necessarily because we, we madesure that the bus tub, for
example, is near, it's in thedining area, and whenever we
put, it's also on the ground,it's low.
And whenever you, you have aspoon or a, um, a plate or
something, it gets thrown intothe bus top.
It goes clang, cl clang, cl cl.
And that, uh, that is part ofthe performance.

(40:38):
That's part of that sends you inthat, that place is music's
playing low or maybe it's not, Idon't know, depending on what it
is, but what I feel likehearing, uh,

Francis (40:45):
And the oral.

George (40:46):
rock on all day yesterday.

Francis (40:48):
And the oral landscape includes the clinking of plates
and stuff.

George (40:52):
It's true.
It really is.
And we, we talked about havingplastic spoons at the counter.
I said, no, no, no.
I wanna have real spoons.
But I also did, by the way, Ididn't wanna have.
spoon that was like a, like a,you know, a fancy spoon.
We had somebody went, I said, Isent someone out to the store to
get some spoons before us toopen.
They came back with these reallyheavy, like maybe stuff that you
might serve in your restaurant,which you would need to, if you
served a, something in yourrestaurant with a cheap, you

(41:13):
know, bendable fork.
You'd be like, people would belike, what is going on here?

the-restaurant-guys_1_05 (41:16):
Right,

George (41:16):
we're the opposite, we have to have a cheap fork.

the-restaurant-guys_1_05 (41:19):
right.

George (41:19):
don't think you would, you would believe what you're
getting if it was a fancy fork.

the-restaurant-guys_1_05 (41:23):
Right, right.

George (41:24):
the cheap napkins that come outta the dispensary.
People complain about thenapkins all the time.
It was like.
Excellent.

Francis (41:31):
You,

George (41:32):
You should have

Francis (41:32):
you figured it out.
That's great.
George George's motto is, thecustomer is sometimes right.
That's the, that's the,

George (41:38):
customer's happy.
It's, we,

the-restaurant-guys_1_05- (41:40):
yeah,

George (41:40):
customer, not

the-restaurant-guys_1_05- (41:41):
yeah,

George (41:42):
customer,

the-restaurant-guys_1_05- (41:43):
yeah.

George (41:43):
we're, we're doing, technically, it's kind of gutsy
if you think about it.
You know,

the-restaurant-guys_1_05-01- (41:46):
It is.

George (41:47):
get everyone to dial back and think differently and
think, when people walk in andsay, why can't I get lettuce and
tomato?
It's like.
we don't do that.
It's like, why?
Somebody said, why don't youhave a veggie burger?
I said, do you walk into avegetarian restaurant and ask
for beef?
I mean, no, you don't.

Mark (42:02):
Yeah.

George (42:03):
Why?

Mark (42:03):
And realize that if you, if I had a vegetarian burger,
I'd be cooking it on thisgriddle With this grease?
Yeah, exactly.
So it would longer be avegetarian, vegetarian.

George (42:13):
Oh, best ever.

Francis (42:15):
So I have, I have to say now you have, you have two
kitchens in your smallrestaurant.
One is is for the counter andthe other is for takeout.
Right?
Well, two lines.
Well, no, two kitchens, aren'tthey?

George (42:25):
Well, there's two lines.
Two

Francis (42:26):
Oh, two lines in the kitchen.
That's, I I thought you meantlines.
Market thought you meant linesof people.
But you mean behind the lines oftwo, two lines.
Lines is the same kitchen, butthere's

Mark (42:35):
two lines you're cooking for for different areas.

George (42:37):
it's a pretty unique setup'cause we're basically two
restaurants in one.
You walk in and you can have thecounter experience, which means
you sit literally in front ofme, whoever's cooking at the
front griddle, what we call theshow griddle.
the joke in the restaurant, thecrew calls it the vacation
griddle.

the-restaurant-guys_1_0 (42:51):
Because it's so much less volume.

George (42:53):
yeah.
'cause

the-restaurant-guys_1_05- (42:54):
Yeah.

George (42:54):
just, you're making everything on the menu, but
you're only

the-restaurant-guys_1_05 (42:57):
Right.

George (42:57):
it, you know, two at a time, five at a time.
It's not high pro, it's not highspeed at all.
In the back.
We, it's, it's, it's crazy backthere.
The thunderdome back there whereyou're actually, you are, you
know, they're, they've got, youknow, 60 burgers and one
griddle, not 60, maybe 40, Iguess it's a lot of burgers and,
um, but they're constantlycranking up burgers because
those two back griddles supply,uh, orders to go and to eat in

(43:18):
the dining room in the back.

Francis (43:20):
And, and it's part of the performance is to watch them
going like crazy.
But I have to say, one of thethings that Mark and I, we went
to the restaurant, we did notexpect to see you behind the
counter making burgers and, uh,you were behind the counter.
You're an awesome host.
I.
A lot of people didn't know thatyou owned the place.
we went specifically to try yourplace and then we saw you there
and it was great.
Um, but the other thing I haveto say, there's a lot of joy in

(43:43):
that place.
You and everybody else used tobe having a lot of fun and that
was great.

George (43:48):
game.

Mark (43:48):
You waited 20, you, you waited 25 years to have the
perfect job for you.

George (43:52):
that's right.
Put me in Coach.
I'm ready.
Put me in.
I just wanna make sure there's ahappy place.
I mean, this is, it's been, itwasn't too difficult to, um, to
explain to my business partners,uh, which is the sch snippers,
by the way.
Uh, you know, sch snippersrestaurants in Manhattan.
I chose the perfect two guys tohelp me run this thing with
another friend of mine who'salso the, the money guy behind
this, uh, was helping usorganize the, the, the

(44:14):
financials for this.
But the four of us together makea pretty, pretty powerful team.
And it's because they, theyalready have experience in the
business, in this business.
You know, they, and one of thethings they did, which is I
thought was great, was theytrusted me.
They trusted me with the menu,they trusted me with the
concept, trusted me with theBurger, monthly Burger special.
And they trusted me to, to, tosort of have to, they, they had
as much guts as we po possiblycould have.

(44:36):
To make people believe that.
And one thing was to make surewe had a happy work environment.
we have no zero tolerancepeople, anybody who's having a
bad time at work, if you have a,if you have something wrong,
which just happens at work, wetell people, just go around the
corner, you know, scream in theback hall, don't do it

the-restaurant-guys_1_0 (44:50):
Mm-hmm.

Mark (44:50):
Mm-hmm.
If you want a joyful place, youhave to have joyful people
working there.
Yep.
That's, I mean, that's just as.

George (44:56):
with their, they're, they're, I mean, they're, we pay
them well, we pay, we're paidwell, and they, they want to
come to work every day.
It's this, it's really a greatfeeling.
I wanna go to work every daytoo, by the way.
I would never wanna go to aplace where people were in a bad
mood all the time.
It'll be the worst.

the-restaurant-guys_1_05-0 (45:07):
Yep,

George (45:07):
there.
I cook every single day.
I cook.
If I'm there, I'm cooking.
I cook for about a half an hourto an hour and a half, depending
on what's going on.
Uh, I love being on the line.
I love it so much.
I'll jump in just because I, Ilove that feeling.
It's so much fun to, to workwith somebody.
Also, I think they think thecrew likes to see me work.
They like to see that I, I wantto get in there and do stuff.
And they also themselves want tolearn.

(45:29):
I can feel them watching me cookand um, and they're really,
really paying attention.
'cause in their mind, they justwanna get it right.

the-restaurant-guys_1_05- (45:37):
Yeah,

George (45:37):
it their way.
They wanna do it the way that isthe right way.
And, and they have so much fundoing it.
And then also whenever we changethe burger every month, you
know, my first thought was, oh,these guys are, they're gonna
hate me.
They're gonna hate me.
We're gonna, the constantchange.
And they actually like thechange.
They

Francis (45:51):
sure.

George (45:52):
we change burgers.

Francis (45:53):
Well, it's a place that's the same all the time.
Yet you, yet you bring in newthings and change things.
I, I just have to say that the,the environment in the
restaurant, when you walk in,it's, it is a, it's a joyful,
happy place, and you feel likeyou're walking into 1957 and to
see you behind the counter is areal treat.
So I, I'm not here to plug yourrestaurant, but I wanna plug
your restaurant.
People should go to HamburgerAmerica.

(46:15):
It's great.
Great time.

George (46:16):
you.
Just Don't come on a Saturdaypeople.
That's like a, it's like a goatrodeo in there.
It's, it's, it's, it's, we'rewe, we make burgers so quickly,
but on Saturday it's alwayscrowded.

Mark (46:26):
Amazing.
George, thank you for being withus today.
You know, we really enjoyed,going down this road with you.
This, this, this old countryroad that took us to to family
fun restaurants an Americana.
Thank you very much.

Francis (46:40):
Great time.

George (46:40):
great.
Great to see you guys after allthese years.

Francis (46:43):
Yeah, wild man.
We'll see you in New Brunswickreal soon.

George (46:45):
Yes, definitely.
I'll see.
I'll definitely, I'm coming out.

Francis (46:48):
You can find out more about George Mo at, uh, the show
notes in our show, and we'll getyou to his restaurant and his
books and his documentary andfollow him on YouTube.
If you wanna learn somethingabout burgers, we'll be back in
just a moment.
You're listening to therestaurant guys, talk to in a
moment.

the-restaurant-guys_2_05- (47:27):
Well, it's a first, another restaurant
first.
We actually ate a burger on, onthe podcast.
So you, how was, I just wannasay that was your idea.
Want everyone to know it was adarn good idea.
Great idea.
So, George's counter, I wannatalk about that.
It's, it's whatever, nine 11seats, something like that.
Uhhuh.
But because you're only therefor 15, 20 minutes at a, at a
click, um.
So we went in with, with oursenior staff, we made them sit

(47:49):
in the back, in the dining room,right?
There were only two seats on thecounter and Francis and I sat at
the corner so we could talk toGeorge and set this up a little
bit and, make this all happen.
But the counter it worth waitingfor, I think is, oh yeah, it is.
Experiential as opposed totransactional.
I think at the counter it was,it was really cool and it was
really fortunate that hehappened to be behind the
counter when we were there.
Yes.
But he does set the tone.

(48:10):
Yep.
You know, and they all respecthim and they all respect each
other.
And that's, that's, that's soimportant in a restaurant.
'cause you just wanna be there.
Yep.
Um, but I, I, I love beingthere.
He's super educational.
I watched a lot of his videos.
Mm-hmm.
And he, he even talks about, youknow, the steamed burgers, for
example.
I don't NI don't get that.
I've never understood the WhiteCastle burger.
I, I don't want a steam burger.

(48:30):
Yeah.
I, it's not as good.
But, but I understand thatthat's what he talked about my
art reaction.
It's, it's part of the burger.
Right.
But he talks about how when theydo put those burgers down and
they put the cheese on top ofthe raw meat and there's nuances
to how people make burgers.
That's.
Pretty amazing.
I I, I do wanna put a plugin forour burger.
You know what I, oh, you have todo it.
Well, so we've made the firstchange in our burger in 30

(48:51):
years.
We added a new topping.
We found this great supplier forGuan Chale.
And we did that, primarily'causewe, we we're using it for
carbonara.
And we also have a a, a GuanChale sandwich on the menu now.
But we put Guan Chale Crisp,Guan Chale as a topping on the
burger.
It's, it's the first changewe've made in 27 years of that
burger.
The gu charlie is, it'shonestly, it's expensive.

(49:13):
Which an extra$9 on burger.
Yeah.
Well it's expensive because it'sthe best gu charlie around.
Oh my goodness.
It's so good though.
But here's the thing that I wasrealizing and we're talking
about that burger's, thatplace's been around for a
hundred years, that place's beenaround for 80 years and um.
Do you know, I, I don't knowwhether this is good or bad,
and, and, and it's more than ashameless plug, but I think
about like, we've been doingthis for 33 years.

(49:33):
Yeah.
So the place that's been doingit for a hundred years, we're a
third of the way there.
We are a third of the way there.
You know, that pla it's crazy.
So you, you said something onthe show earlier, and I just
wanted to clarify.
So this burger was invented forour staff.
Oh, right, yeah, yeah.
We didn't originally serve thisburger in our dining room or at
our bar.
this burger was invented.
We had it for family meal and wewere like.
Oh my God, this is so good.

(49:54):
We, we just need to, we need to,to, well, and we perfected a
little more and, and got thesize exactly right.
'cause we have a Woodburn Grill.
And the Woodburn Grill doesmagical things with meat of the
right size and fat content.
And when we started it, Youcould only get it at the bar.
We wouldn't serve it in thedining room because back then
things were more formal.
You know, back then there wererestaurants where you had to
have a jacket to sit in thedining room, right?

(50:15):
You didn't want somebody eatingwith their hands next to you if
you were having a a seven coursetasting menu.
I wouldn't want someone eatingfood with their hands next to me
while I am fancy, you know?
And then, uh, that changed whenpeople were like.
Listen, this is really annoying.
We're a big client.
We want the burgers.
I will say I still love theAmish bacon on there.
Yeah.
But the gu Guan Cha's a wholenew dimension.

(50:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The Italian pig cheek is betterthan the, the Amish are nice and
all, but you know, they shouldget out more crispy and ah, it's
so good.
The Amish are nice, but theyshould get out.
They really should be.
No letters from Amish.
Amish?
No, no.
Well, they can write letters.
Sure.
But you can't see.
Like, don't send me letters.
No, there you go.
Amish.
Amish people.
I'm sorry for what Francis said.
I'm sorry for what?
I said Well, but I'm not sorryfor the burger and I'm not sorry

(50:58):
for having George Moats on theshow.
I do recommend going to hisplace.
I do recommend watching hisvideos on YouTube.
Really educational, super funguy.
And if you can sit at thecounter and talk to George and
tell him you heard him on therestaurant, guys, uh, he'll be
thrilled to hear from you.
Indeed.
All right, we'll talk to yousoon.
I'm Francis Shot.
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurant guys.
You can always find [e-mail].