April 22, 2025 • 51 mins
The Banter
The Guys talk about their visit to one of their new favorite cities: Charleston, SC.
The Conversation
The Restaurant Guys catch up with cocktail creator and bar operator Jillian Vose in her Charleston home as she prepares to open up her newest venture, Hazel and Apple, with business partner Sean Muldoon. Jillian tells her story of where she’s been and where she’s going (which is pretty exciting!)
The Inside Track
The Guys have known Jillian from Death & Co. and The Dead Rabbit (NYC) and were happy to meet up while they were in Charleston. Jillian shares some of what she is looking forward to about running her soon-to-open bar Hazel and Apple.
“Knowing that people want to work, they want to do a good job, and hiring the right people and investing in people, having a great education program and giving people opportunities not only helps yourself, but them. That is what I want to achieve and create: a great community and a great working environment,” Jillian Vose on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2025
Bio
Jillian Vose is a renowned mixologist and entrepreneur, celebrated for her innovative approach to cocktails and her influential presence in the beverage industry. After starting out in AZ, she quickly ascended the ranks, contributing significantly to establishments like Clover Club, Maison Premiere, Death & Co., and notably, The Dead Rabbit in NYC. Her latest venture, Hazel and Apple in Charleston, SC, is set to bring a fresh perspective to the city's vibrant bar scene.
Co-authored Mixology & Mayhem and Paddy Drinks: The World of Modern Irish Whiskey Cocktails
Named one of the 10 Best American Bartenders in 2017 by the Spirited Awards from Tales of The Cocktail.
Info
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
Hello everybody, and welcome.
You are listening to theRestaurant Guys.
I'm Mark Pascal and I'm herewith Francis Shot.
Together we own stage left inKaha Lombardi restaurants in New
Brunswick, New Jersey.
We're here to bring you theinside track on food, wine, and
the finer things in life.
Hello, mark.
Hey Francis.
How are you?
I'm good.
What do you got for me thismorning?
Well, you know, it's funny, I,we have been talking a lot about
our Charleston trip, but wepacked so much into that
(00:33):
Charleston trip where we learnednew things and did new things
that are exciting.
So, we gotta talk aboutCharleston again.
Okay, today's guest is JillianVoes.
Jillian is the general managerand partner.
She was the manager of the DeadRabbit in New York City.
and she is with our friend SeanMuldoon, a general manager and
partner of Hazel and Apple, downin Charles Hazel.
Apple gonna open right on KingStreet.
(00:54):
Right next to Ion.
Awesome.
Awesome.
We had a great time.
We went town.
We saw the space.
Yeah.
And the space isn't ready.
It's under construction, so Oh,it's very not ready.
Oh, it's not ready.
But their plans are great.
Their investors are great.
We met a bunch of the partnersand and we know those guys for
years.
It's gonna be terrific.
And we met Jillian in herapartment.
Yes.
Which was pretty amazing.
Yes.
Her apartment was built for alive.
(01:14):
A bartender, though it was notbuilt for a live small bartender
guy.
she's relocated down toCharleston and what she's doing
while she's down there is justgetting the bar ready.
But, she's got a littleapartment and she.
Has converted it into,'causeshe's doing a lot of events.
Mm-hmm.
So it's a lot of bar prep spacein her.
So it was a test kitchen at thesame time.
Yeah.
And she had, she was doing acouple events while we were
(01:37):
there and so there was SUVmachines and lots of coolers and
freezers and stuff.
Coolers and freezers and bottlesand mixes and, and they were
everywhere.
And I'm, you know what?
And I'm too big to live in thatapartment.
You are too big to walk aroundin that apartment.
But it was lovely.
We did the podcast from ourkitchen table.
We'll be talking about it later.
Uhhuh.
I love Jillian v.
Been, we've been friends for along time and to visit her
(01:58):
apartment.
She's anal retentive like I am.
Everything has a place, a placefor everything and everything in
its place.
Well, her apartment was almostlike a precursor to what Hazel
and Apple's gonna be.
Yeah, right.
Every piece of artwork, everypiece of furniture, thoughtful,
was thoughtful and had a storythat she could contextualize if
(02:18):
you were interested enough.
Yeah.
To ask What's that?
Yeah.
What's that?
And we did, we didn't do it foreverything'cause we didn't have
a ton of time, but we're like,what's that?
Oh, well that's, from, uh, rollDoll's book and I know it was
the first book I ever read.
You know, literally everything.
Had a story like that.
I love it.
And so, what was interesting totalk to her about the people
down in Charleston, and nowwe'll segue away from Jillian
'cause she's gonna be joining usmm-hmm.
(02:39):
To talk about herself in thefirst person momentarily.
But just the vibe down there wasawesome.
Yeah.
I have to say.
we met, we met and met the ownerof Prohibition, which is our
next Hazel Apple.
James.
The guy James is terrific.
Belfast man.
Yeah.
Francis (02:52):
and just everybody we met down there, the vibe is,
crazy mellow, and the fish isout of this world world
Mark (02:58):
I've been to Charleston before and it was a little
different this time.
Mm-hmm.
It had a little bit more, what'sthe word I'm looking for?
Vibrancy, Pepnet, step, notvibrancy.
It was, it's, it was vibrant thelast time too.
Okay.
But everybody was just moving alittle quicker, a little bit.
a, there was just a little bitmore.
(03:18):
Or sense of urgency going ondown there and not in a bad way.
Yeah, in a, in a good way,especially when I'm talking
about service.
I really felt, but I will tellyou, everyone was nice.
Everyone was sophisticated,everyone was polite and
deferential, as you mightexpect, Southern hospitality is
real.
It's real, but, but it's got areal sophistication to it too
that I just, I thought the wholething was tremendous and the.
The scene on King Street ofpeople walking around at all
(03:42):
hours of the day and night andwell dressed people and, who
were just having fun, you know?
Yeah.
And it was, there was nothingbut good vibes about the whole
place in the bars, everywhere onthe street.
It's terrific.
I don't.
Want to talk negatively aboutFlorida.
I've been down there a coupletimes in the last year.
Yeah.
my uncle's down there went downto the keys.
Yep.
And had a lovely time,everywhere I went in Florida,
(04:03):
Miami, I.
But Charleston is much more acity.
I could see myself saying, youknow what, I'm gonna spend a few
months a year down here andenjoy the weather in Charleston.
Much more so than that Florida.
And I know Florida's filled withmuch more New Jersey and New
Yorkers, but it does seem a.
That there are some more peoplefrom New York and New Jersey in,
(04:24):
in Charleston than there was thelast time I was there.
Our buddy Scott was telling usthat something like a hundred
people a day moved to Charlestonfrom the Raider, Charleston
area.
Interesting.
From the northeast.
and you could see why.
Yeah.
and what was funny, the otherthing, it was really striking,
comparing it to Florida, evencomparing it to places that are
less expensive.
Everything was less expensivedown there.
The meals, the cocktails, thewine and the wine list.
(04:46):
Yes.
And by the way, the other thing.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, the wines down there arereally sophisticated.
Yes.
Not just American wines,European wines.
Yes.
And they're, really inexpensive.
I'm going back.
I, there, there wererestaurants, even restaurants
that I didn't love that hadreally good intelligent wine
lists.
Yeah.
Yeah.
it was great.
And you, again, I was inCharlotte recently.
Charlotte doesn't have the samevibe that Charleston does.
(05:06):
Yeah.
Charleston really, reallylovely.
I can't think of a negativething to say about the city.
Do you know what I, you knowwhat I'm thinking?
What do you think?
As, as we were, our vacation wascoming to a close.
I was like, and I hear all thosepeople, northerners are moving
in there and, The, we looked atthe housing prices and the rent.
Mm-hmm.
And not that we're planning onmoving down there, but, and the
cocktails, and I thought.
this is a hidden gem.
(05:26):
And you know what happens tohidden gems?
They get unhidden, therestaurant guys talk about them
and then everybody moves there.
Yeah.
We're unearthing a gem.
maybe we shouldn't air this.
It's already all right.
It's already been unearth.
No, the world knows aboutCharleston already.
Yeah.
So Charleston is great.
I just hope it doesn't get eatenby its own popularity.
Yeah.
I hope it gets to retained whatit is, but It will have Hazel
and Apple from Sean Muldoon andJillian Voes from the Dead
Rabbit.
(05:46):
And we're gonna talk withJillian Vose in just a moment.
We're taking you back toCharleston right now.
Hello there everybody, andwelcome back.
We are talking to you from SouthCarolina at the home of Jillian
Vose.
You may have known Jillian Vosefrom her long tenure at the Dead
Rabbit in New York City.
she was at Death and Co andMeison Perme before that and
she's now opening a new projectdown here called Hazel and
(06:09):
Apple, in which Mark and I aregetting involved in Hazel and
Apple with our old friend SeanMuldoon.
the bar isn't open yet.
The bar isn't quite built yet,and so we are sitting in
Jillian's living room.
Thanks for having us, Jillian.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me, andwelcome to my humble abode.
it's great.
This is great.
This is our first, we were justpointing out before, this is our
(06:30):
first, podcast.
from someone's home, Well, it'sdefinitely better than the, uh,
construction site, of the bar,so I don't know.
That might've been exciting.
Yeah.
So, I don't know if you rememberthe first night that we met.
I don't know if I ever told youa story, but I met you and I, I
think I have this right.
You were at death and Company.
The day before you were to startwork at Death and Company and
(06:51):
you were at the bar with friendsand I wound up in the bar that
night and we just struck up aconversation.
Okay.
And you were the girl who wasgonna start at the, at death and
company.
Is that possible?
Am I remembering that correctly?
I mean, I'm sorry to say I don'tremember it.
It was a five minuteconversation, but I only
remembered it because then Iwent back a few times and saw
you behind the bar, and then webecame friends and we were
friends for a long time.
(07:11):
But yeah, we go back way back tothen.
Yeah.
So I was like, oh, I'm startingto work tomorrow.
You were gonna start there thenext day.
And that was, that's funny.
Yeah, the dodging process therewas pretty intense.
I think I had to go in and kindof like, because I had never, I
hadn't been there too many timesbefore I started working there.
I kinda had to go in and get anidea of what's going on.
so you came to New York as abartender.
Tell us about Jillian's arrivalin New York before you took it
(07:32):
over.
I meant New York where you tookover New York.
not quite, so I'm from Cape Cod,Massachusetts, just always been,
working since the day I couldlegally, maybe even before that.
and, I.
Played sports, played music, didwell in school.
And then, decided that insteadof going to college and playing,
field hockey competitively, Idecided to move to Arizona.
(07:53):
And I was like, where's far warmand cheap?
Arizona.
In Arizona and I al already hada lot of friends out there, so
kind of made sense.
And yeah, I got a one way ticketand.
And there I was.
So never been there in my life.
So think so.
You just went?
Yeah, I just went.
Took your stuff.
I just went, yep.
Turned it over your shoulder andsaid, I'm moving to Arizona.
Yep.
Did you know what you were gonnado out there?
(08:14):
Nope.
How old were you?
17.
17.
That's awesome.
Yep.
Yep.
17.
to be honest, my parents wouldnot have had any problem with
that.
They've been like, oh, you wannago do something?
Go get outta my house.
Well get outta my house.
Get outta my house.
Your parents.
Well, my thing was like, youtell me I, I can't do something
and that's exactly what I'mgonna do.
Mm-hmm.
So, you know, that's why, youknow, poor choices and tattoos
(08:35):
or, you know, If that's not yourattitude though, you will never
open a restaurant.
Yeah.
Because you crazy.
Well, and everybody in the worldwill tell you no.
That's a bad decision.
It a.
Including the three of us.
Everybody's done it.
Yeah, everybody's done it.
Like, so gimme advice, like,yeah, don't do that.
Don't do this.
It's a terrible idea.
I gotta tell you something.
We started shortly after webegan the restaurant guys, or
(08:57):
about the same time we startedwhen we were probably the first
food podcast in the world in Mayof 2005.
We were doing a bunch ofconsulting and then we, we had
the podcast and not a lot ofpeople knew about podcasts back
then, but people found out aboutus and hired us to consult.
Our best consulting advice wegave to people was like, here's
the minimum, here's theretainer.
I want it in advance.
And I do.
We listen to their business,bros.
(09:17):
We do the whole thing.
okay, our advice is consultantsdon't fucking do this.
And we had like four or fivepeople take us up on it and
they're like, okay, well if Iwanna do it, I'm like, okay,
then you have to do these thingshere.
Mm-hmm.
And like, yeah, maybe I won't,maybe I won't hear that.
How I start every consultingconversation is.
Is there anything else you cando that will make you happy?
(09:38):
Yeah.
Because you should do thatinstead of immerse yourself into
this crazy life that you'reabout to encounter.
Yeah.
Do you, do you want a babythat's actually just a building
and know, play whack-a-Mole witha maintenance every day.
Whack-a-mole is restaurantmanagement.
Yeah.
That's how I found in New Yorkwas like, oh, fix this league.
Oh.
Pop it up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(09:59):
I call it that.
Well, we're in a hundred yearold building, so we, so there is
same always something goingwrong.
Oh God.
Yeah.
And we own it.
Yep.
So the choice is you can fix itor it could keep leaking.
Yeah.
that's all there is.
Maintenance is very costly.
Yeah.
Well, and it's funny, mark and Ihave both, I particularly have
become much more handy over thecourse of the last 30 years of
running restaurants becauseyou're like, I, if you're gonna
(10:22):
have the HVAC guy come in.
I'm gonna stand behind him andwatch what he does.
'cause he seems to be doing thesame thing twice a year.
And if I can figure it out, it'sgonna save a ton of cash.
Yeah.
Jennifer comes to the restauranta lot for those who listen line,
you know, Jennifer Mark's wife,our producer mm-hmm.
And she's like, I just wanna getsome talking head shots.
I just wanna get some video ofyou guys.
And she's like, I.
How did you ever get any workdone?
here's the time we're supposedto meet, and the carpet guy and
(10:44):
the HVAC guy and the winesalesman are all here and you
have to Yeah.
Then the PMs went down.
Yeah, the went down.
Yeah.
And it's a Saturday night andthe fire alarm's going off.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
It's always, when it rains, itpours and people always say oh,
you're the beverage director,whatever, the bar manager, and
you're like, it's.
Yeah, glorious.
I went to like a, a restaurantand bar equipment, trade show in
Atlanta last week.
(11:04):
Like, how fun, you know, or,literally all my pockets and my
jeans from when I worked at,dead Rabbit or Death and Go,
like, they're all like, totallythey're totally worn out,
expanded, worn out.
Exactly.
Because, I had just tools, yeah,tools.
I had wrenches and screwdriversand keys that.
For everything and it was like,it was just so funny.
It was a glorified mechanickind, but you love it plumber,
(11:25):
but you love it.
One of one of learned a lot.
Learned a lot.
I was just talking to the chefabout this in the last week or
so, there was a day, so our hotwater heater is in its own
little room off the back of thekitchen and somebody left the
window open in the middle ofwinter time, and so all the
pipes froze in the hot waterheater and then thawed, and then
they unfroze, right Andro.
(11:47):
The hot water heater juststarted springing leaks of
boiling water.
Right.
So you couldn't get close toturn it off that hot pool.
Yeah, it's, and it's 300gallons, so the choice is go in
there and turn it off at thebottom or 300 gallons of water
is gonna go.
into your restaurant, but it hada self-defense mechanism.
It was shooting hot water at youif you tried to get near it.
(12:08):
Oh my God.
So everybody's ah, it's justboiling water and there's
nothing we can do.
I'm like, I'm in a suit.
I'm the maitre d.
And I go in there and I'm justlike, ah, boiling water all over
me, soaking wet hit the mechanicand send Mark to the hospital.
Need to dry out for a littlewhile before I step on the
floor.
What I, why was somebody inthat.
(12:28):
Hot water room and opening awindow.
It's still a mystery.
It's a restaurant business.
Still a mystery because it's arestaurant business.
let's quit whining about we lovethis light.
We love this.
It is a great light.
there's a reason you don't go toan office every day.
You could have if you stayed atthe rabbit and went a different
way.
You could even in the restaurantbusiness, have been more of an
office job if you wanted it.
(12:50):
I'm really not.
That's not my strong Of coursenot.
You'd be bored.
I and many people then tell youlike, you have to do a
spreadsheet or inventory.
I'm like, oh, numbers.
Yeah.
Listen, I'm in Charleston.
I'm in in Jillian v's.
Apartment.
We're gonna go out to lunchafter this.
We're at the Wine and FoodFestival.
I'm doing this'cause of the funstuff, but you gotta be ready
for the whole deal.
(13:10):
I gotta tell you gotta be readyfor the whole deal.
On the adrenaline.
I'm gonna throw this back toboth of you guys.
I, there was a day, you knowwhat the day that encapsulated
at frame memo most was?
It was the, okay, here's the jobof the owner.
The sewage ejector pump went onthe fritz, right?
And that's all of the sewagefrom the first floor, all of it,
right?
So in that afternoon, firststories, maybe you shouldn't
(13:30):
tell.
'cause it's funny, but nobodyshould.
So it was gross and it was awfuland I didn't love that while I
was doing it.
Three hours later, the governoris in to dinner and I'm
recommending dinner to thegovernor and I'm like, I like my
life, life.
I'm in this, I'm in the toiletthis afternoon.
Fixing it.
Yeah.
I was on the roof the day beforeand now I'm in the dining room
(13:53):
serving the governor Burgundy.
I like that it's, it's moreinteresting.
It makes life more interest.
And you guys do too.
Am I right?
Yes.
Very much.
Like is Burgundy has a certainearthy smell?
No, I'm sorry, governor.
That's me.
That's me.
It's the CIO of the Rioja.
You're drinking Sarah.
That's.
Well, okay, so you're at theDead Rabbit and, I'm a regular
frequenter of the Dead Rabbit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's how we became betterfriends.
(14:14):
Yeah.
We've seen you've seen eachother more at the Dead Rabbit
than anywhere before.
So The Dead Rabbit was owned bytwo friends of mine from
Belfast.
Sean and Jack, and we've hadJack on the show and we've had
Sean on the show.
Mm-hmm.
But, so they decided to godifferent ways in what they
wanted to do and manage the barsthat they wanted to manage.
And you and, Sean came down hereto Charleston.
Yep.
And while Jack is taking thedead rabbit in a different
(14:36):
direction, opening multiple deadrabbits around this, country and
Irish exits and Irish exits andth sports bar and the whole
thing.
You and Sean were like, we wannahave a bar.
We want a home and be greathome.
So talk to us about the choicethat you made to come here and
be part of this.
And then we wanna talk aboutlike, moving to Charleston and
changing gears and all that.
But what was the change thathappened?
(14:56):
What, how did the, what's Hazeland Apple is gonna be the name
of the place.
Yes.
That's gonna open this year.
Yeah, we can get into that maybeafter.
Yeah.
But tell us about your life andthe choice with Hazel and Apple
and how Hazel and Apple's gonnabe distinct from the mission you
would've had if you stayed atthe dead rabbit.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, um, didn't even finish thelast question, but yeah.
Came to New York, and, you know,got lucky a little bit, worked
(15:17):
hard and where I am, had somegreat opportunities from taking
bar five day.
Which really opened up a hugenetwork for me.
which is kind of like thedoctorate programming in bar
back in the day.
Bartending.
Yeah.
This was 2010 that I took it sothat was one of the first years
I did it.
It was one of the only femalesthat did it too.
It's five intensive days of bartraining.
(15:38):
That, and I'm a fellow, bar,five day graduate.
And it was, and Mark made fun ofme because I had never had an
energy drink before until I wentto the bar five day.
'cause it's A day of nine, 10hours of training, and then you
have a test at the end of theweek, and then your next day is
nine and 10 hours.
So the only choice is to go homeand not sleep and study what you
learned the day before.
Yeah, it's insane.
(15:58):
So you were at Bar five day whenyou were where?
At the Dead Rabbit or before?
No, no, no.
I, I, moved to Arizona after,after high school.
Um, kind of hit a ceiling there.
I worked in fine dining, workedat a brewery, and then I moved
over, back home to Cape Cod andkind of figuring out, oh, I'm
gonna go to Boston, I'm gonna goto New York.
And the opportunities in NewYork were just like, there was
so much more potential.
Mm-hmm.
so like, what year is this?
This is 2000.
(16:19):
Nine or 10, I don't even knowanymore.
So, so the cocktail world isreally extreme.
It, yeah.
This is like, you know, deathand going open, really gone p dt
and Milk and Honey.
They were kind of like, yep.
They were, the cool kids, youknow, and still are.
so I was home on the Cape anddecided to, I was gonna go to
New York.
Mm-hmm.
But, I had heard people talkabout Bar five day, this is
before you had to take BarSmarts first too.
I didn't even know what that wasat the time.
(16:40):
And so I literally like filledin the application the night
before or I called, I like,called the phone, I called the
mm-hmm.
The, the landline and like,called like answer the phone.
I was like, wasn't expectingthat.
He's like, well, you know, if wecan get your application in the
next day.
And so I did.
And, um, I didn't get any helpwith the cost.
But it was the best thing I did.
(17:00):
'cause it was people I met onthat, and that group was, well,
like I said, especially at thattime.
Right.
that was like.
I'll call it stage two, right?
So the early days in thenineties and, early aughts, you
had a, a group of people.
Yeah.
And then that, oh five to 2010,you had that kind of, that next
group of people who grew.
It's cool to see the tree, likethe schools that then developed
(17:23):
a branch, branch out, which is areally cool thing to see.
I, I also wanna point out likein obviously in an early
dedication to your craft, thatbar five day was like$5,000,
wasn't it?
At the time I did, I think atthe time I did.
I think it was like.
25 or 25, 27.
But yeah.
But that was a long time ago.
In today's dollars, that's fouror$5,000.
Yeah.
And most people who took it hada company or corporation.
(17:44):
Right.
Responsive brand resume.
Me.
I didn't get like a scholarshipor anything.
Like I invested in my future,like I wasn't going to college
or whatever.
Sure.
I just heard that it was likethe thing to do and I was like,
I didn't expect to get in.
And so I literally was like,well, I'm not gonna go to New
York and pay for a hotel.
I go, I'm just gonna move.
So I slept on an air mattress inmy new apartment in the Upper
East Side, and you've developeda certain style here when you
(18:05):
moved from one city to another,apparently, where you kind just,
I just wing it backpack and I'mhere.
Yeah.
Lots of funny stories aboutthat, but I know we're getting
off track, but I just wanted togo from there, but, so.
Like that experience led me to,work at, at Clover Club for a
bit.
and also gave me the opportunityto meet the right people to be
on the opening team on MaisonPremier.
Yeah.
Where I met the bar manager atthe time, Thomas Wa, who used to
(18:28):
come in on Friday nights andwatch me get my butt kicked and
they needed a bartender.
It's just I had a little bit ofluck, but just worked hard and
picked up shifts and was just,did everything I could to learn
and, you know, it was fake ittill you make it.
Mm-hmm.
Like I really had to catch up,if you know what I mean, Uhhuh,
um, because I didn't have thatNew York experience.
but I was a bartender, you knowwhat I mean?
(18:50):
Like, I knew how to multitaskand I was like, I was fast and I
could, do the dance.
but as far as like the.
The education of spirits orcocktail making.
that took some time.
And it really wasn't until deathand Co that I was surrounded by
people like Joaquin Smo andThomas, and, Phil Ward, Brian
Miller, like those guys justeven being around them and
(19:10):
understanding balance andmm-hmm.
Um, like just like differentsugars.
And why would you use this ryeover that rye?
And it, I really had.
Probably the most influentialtime in my career was there.
and yeah, but for me, I thinkyou did things in the right
order, right?
So your first order of businessis, okay, I gotta get the syntax
(19:32):
of what this job is.
I have to, okay, I do thisfirst, I do this next, I do this
next.
I multitask.
I prioritize this, I prioritizethat.
I'm a bartender to thecustomers.
And that you have to do thatbefore, and I feel like a lot of
bartenders now are trying to dothe other part first.
Okay.
I wanna learn about, how to makedrinks and the balance of the
drinks.
(19:52):
And I feel like that needs tocome second.
And after the mechanics.
After the mechanics and letsomebody teach you those things
after you've learned themechanics.
I really do believe that youshould hire four people who are.
Excited about the craft ormm-hmm.
You know, wanna do a good job,have a good attitude, and like
they're, teachable.
I was definitely somebody whoreally enjoyed the social aspect
(20:15):
of it.
I loved working.
I I didn't complain.
I just, I worked all the time.
I loved it.
And because I didn't really dothe whole college thing,
although I'm still payingstudent loans.
Um, but, that was my college,Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Like the friends I made at thebrewery I worked at was, are
like, I'm still friends with'emto that this day.
And it was like, when I learnedhow to, how to bartend, it was
(20:38):
like, oh, we're just throwingyou in.
you've already worked here for acouple years.
Mm-hmm.
You've been a food runner,you've been a, you can
multitask, but.
You're going on on a Fridaynight.
And I, I remember, it wasshaking.
Yeah.
And it's after an hour.
I was fine, but I, I remember,like I, I've been here, I know
these people.
Why am I, like, can't pour abeer?
how I learned how to bartend wasmake it blue, make it pink,
blah, blah.
I'm like, mm-hmm.
(20:59):
What if it's wrong?
Like, you can't return shots,Jill.
It's fine.
Yeah.
And you know, you can't, um, sothat was, a brewery, so you're
not getting.
So many drinks.
a more forgiving environment.
Yeah.
For me, starting at a RedLobster, really, I screwed it
up.
Sorry.
That's does actually like thosecorporate environments that the
training programs are actuallygreat.
Like when you see like aStarbucks or a TJ Fridays on
(21:21):
somebody's resume, you're like,oh, they've gone through this
corporate training.
It's good thing sometimes.
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah, they, they didn't havethat back then.
Um, but yeah, so I mean,anyways, like I think it was a
great, like probably the mostinfluential.
Part of my career as far as likecreativity and learning about
how to make drinks and running abar and kind of figuring it out.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but, Jack, asked me to comeon board at Dead Rabbit, like
(21:45):
only about a year after theyopened.
And, They were new to New York.
They were new to America, andthey didn't really have many
systems in place.
And so it was cool to use what Ilearned, even just a little bit
at, death and Co and, now it'smuch more mm-hmm.
Uh, you know, detailed andeverything, but, It was a great
experience, but like it, it did.
(22:05):
Eight years is a long time tostay somewhere, when you're
working long hours and you're inthe same building or,
relationships change and, Seanand I worked very closely
together on the creative side ofthings.
So, we did a lot the socialmedia and we did, the
photography and we.
Did the books together and allthe PR stuff and you know, being
an ambassador for the brand andtraveling on behalf of the bar
and when all that stuff, but,which I think that Rabbit did
(22:28):
better than any other bar thatI've ever seen.
Really?
that stuff.
Yeah.
Uh, People always talk aboutdrinks and the place and the
feel of the place, theproduction stuff was just
absolutely amazing.
I, and for me, and this is not ashot, I think there are other
places that give you the vibethat the dead rabbit can give
you.
It's at the convivial feel goodkind of place.
(22:49):
But the stuff that you guysproduced between the books and
the, the comics and all thoseother, and that's, that's all
Sean graphic things that, thatyou produced.
We're singular.
there's nothing like that.
Yeah.
I mean, I honestly like thestorytelling Through everything
that, that we did.
again, Sean is that visionary.
He so much research andeverything he does, there's a
reason for everything.
(23:10):
everything on the wall.
There's a reason for, the mosaicon the floor.
Mm-hmm.
Or that picture is, there's astory behind everything and it's
not You need.
you don't ha it's not in yourface, but it's there if you want
it, it to know more.
And that's, Hazel and Apple willbe that way too.
Very much so.
before, before we get to Hazeland Apple,'cause I do want, we
should start talking more aboutHazel and Apple, but just at
(23:31):
when you came onto the Dead rep,were you just brought in as a
bartender?
We were as a manager.
What did you start at?
I was brought on as a barmanager.
and, It is hard, like, and I'vedone it two ways, like where
I've been a bartender that movedinto a, a management role, which
is very difficult.
because then it's like you Ohyeah.
It's hard to not be that person.
Like they're not gonna listen tome like they were your peers.
Right?
(23:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we did it when we opened.
You wanna be everybody's buddy,so it was really hard.
Yeah.
And we were 26, 27 years oldwhen we opened.
And, ev everybody on staff wassomebody that was a peer of
ours.
They were 22 to 27 years old aswell.
And yeah.
And it, it was harder to manageand people that you had worked
with in other spaces and back, Iregret a lot.
I would do things a lotdifferently for sure.
(24:13):
Tell us for sure.
what would you do?
Go ahead.
What are some of the things cometo mind?
Yeah.
well, I mean at one point Ithink they called me the Barback
Slayer.
and I look at like how.
my temper would've got the bestof me.
Mm-hmm.
and not, um, very proud of it.
But, drinking on the job, thatkind of stuff, like those are
things that I wish it was partof a culture.
Mm-hmm.
that's not professional.
And that definitely got me intotrouble a few times.
(24:34):
Mark and I talked about that atthe time.
We may have even talked about iton the old radio show.
Mm-hmm.
I don't recall, but it went froma time, so Mark and I have
always worked in a bar wherewhen you make last call, the
bartender can pour them shelf, Ashift drink.
Yeah.
Or two, depending on the policyof the house.
So we always had to drinkafterwards, but never were we
allowed to drink behind the barand never did tell that's not
(24:56):
true.
When you did the wine class andyou brought me a glass of wine
of 1976, Roman Conti Osh.
And but that's the exception,prove the rule and it was worth
breaking the rule.
We had one extraordinary bottleof wine once during a wine
class, and we got permission todrink it, but we never allowed
bartenders to drink and.
That was the rule in mostplaces.
Mm-hmm.
(25:16):
And then for a while, all thesecraft cocktail bars, people were
drinking behind the bar allnight long.
Half the staffs were of NewYork, were half in the bag like
it was.
It was all the cocktail bars allthe time.
When you say it was the culture,it was the cocktail.
It was the culture, but I'm alsolike a hundred.
15 pounds at that time.
I can't keep up with these guys.
Well the other thing is it grewup and then it went away.
(25:37):
You don't see that anymore?
I don't see people drinkingbehind the bar at all.
No.
I think it's which is great.
I think it's hard because youknow, you wanna be able to do it
and have that like kind of funcheers kind of thing.
Mm-hmm.
But you know, as long as likeyou just have rules, Yeah.
Um, I.
We have to decide as like amanagement team with Apple, it
was such what that's gonna beand like, I think it depends on
the place, but I think, uh, asfar as it goes with that topic,
(25:57):
I think it's just be consistentWell, I think that's over now.
I think in all the serious barsnow it's, you know, it's a
profession and part of it beinga profession is that, you need
to act professionally in thebar.
so here you are at the DeadRabbit, and.
Jillian's gonna make a change.
Jillian and Sean are gonna goand do Hazel and Apple.
Yeah, take us from Water Streetin New York to where we are
(26:20):
sitting now here in SouthCarolina with Hazel and Apple
under construction.
you know, I was saying abouteight years is a long time, for,
one place, especially if you'renot an owner and you have to
make that decision.
Do I.
Wanna stay in this, or, but Iwas definitely getting burnt
out.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I definitely hit a wall andNew York City is not easy, I
moved there 24, 25 and justlike, literally was just hit the
(26:43):
ground like, you know, I reallywas burning it at both ends.
And I, you know, I just waslike, not.
As productive I as I could be.
And I think it was a mutualdecision, like on, I was really
good at what I did, but at theend of the day, it was like, all
right, you need a break.
I went on a sabbatical.
Mm-hmm.
Um, that When was that?
Like a day?
Um, a day.
(27:03):
No, I'm kidding.
A day left.
Sab.
I like that.
No, I mean, again, like you findmy inner piece.
No, no.
Okay.
There it is.
No, but I, I did, you know, Ithink like we all decided like
all.
If we wanna move forward as ateam, like mm-hmm.
Sabbatical might be a good idea.
And that was a year sabbatical.
But in the, after even a couplemonths of that, Jack and Sean
decided to part ways and Mm-hmm.
(27:24):
But Sean and I were gonna do ourown thing because we were
working together mostly, like itwas him and I that did, the PR
and the creative stuff.
Mm-hmm.
And they wanted to move in adifferent directions.
So it all worked out for thebest, for everybody.
and originally the location herein Charleston was going to be, a
dead rabbit.
when that partnership broke up,part of that deal or whatever is
(27:46):
that we got this space and itwas gonna be totally different.
And so, we put together theconcept of Hazel and apple, and
it's a representative of Seanand i's personality, Hazel being
Sean and Apple being me.
Anybody that knows me even alittle bit, knows that I'm
obsessed with apples or anythingto do with apples.
So, so why Hazel?
(28:06):
For Sean?
in Irish folklore.
It is representative of wisdomand storytelling.
and with an Apple isrepresentative of rebirth, youth
so.
And you're actually plantingsome apple trees in the
courtyard, right?
sure, yes.
We'll see.
Last hopefully.
Yeah, it might take a while forthose to actually be.
(28:29):
Fruitful.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So, and it's, the yin and yangof our personalities and which
every good partnership needs.
Yes, yes.
I promise.
Yes.
so yeah, we worked really welltogether and we knew like he's
the best at what he does in asfar as a visionary and, concept
and everything, and, and hebelieves that I'm good at what I
do.
So.
I shared his belief that youwere good at, at what you do.
(28:50):
So talk to us about Hazel andAmple and the, what the bar's
gonna be like.
'cause we are super excited tosee it open later this year.
so are we, it's definitely, uh,we've gone through some hurdles
for sure.
we definitely want to have ourown identity and set us apart.
I think it's really hard toseparate yourself.
Mm-hmm.
When you.
Been such a big part ofsomething that's been
(29:10):
successful.
but when we open, I think peoplewill realize that we are
different people.
You know, we've had a few yearsto reflect.
And When did you leave DeadRabbit?
now it's been three years.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, for me.
Right.
Uh, maybe a little less for Seanit doesn't feel that way.
Yeah.
It feels like.
It was a year ago, you know?
(29:31):
Mm-hmm.
But, we are both grateful for,even though it's been
frustrating for the hurdles thatwe've, encountered with the bar
being pushed back, but.
Maybe the universe like it justhappened.
And, and, we're very gratefulfor the time and to reflect on,
the things that have happenedor, to embrace this new
lifestyle and understand how wecan do things better and be
(29:52):
better partners, be betterfriends.
put up some boundaries and not,you know, work 16 hours a day
and six days a week, like maybewe used to.
Francis aren't doing so wellwith the boundaries.
Yeah.
He and I aren't doing so wellwith the boundaries.
Yeah.
But because I'm pretty sure hetexted me at three 30 this
morning and I'm pretty sure thatI called him at five this
morning, so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Actually, Sean texted me,sometimes, and he goes, well, I
(30:12):
forgot you're five hours behind.
I go, uh, no you didn't.
No you didn't.
No, you did not.
I know excuses wearing thin.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
So talk to us about, about Hazeland Apple though.
So what's it gonna be like,where is it gonna be in
Charleston and what's the what,how's it gonna change the
Charleston Irish bar landscape?
well, first and foremost, it'snot gonna be an Irish bar.
it's a community tavern.
(30:33):
something that we really wantthe local community to embrace
and feel comfortable and bethere, not just for special
occasions, but to really reallyhave it be part of the
community.
Mm-hmm.
Um.
gonna be, well this is yourcommunity now, right?
Right.
This is where you live in thisgreat,'cause you've been here
for the last few years.
Mm-hmm.
It's been cool to learn aboutCharleston and learn about, meet
people and other bar owners,other business owners, and, our
(30:55):
food program will be, we'lldefinitely wanna work with,
local vendors and local farmsand, be sustainable as possible.
but as far as like.
The, uh, the concept, if youwill.
it's not a pub.
It's not, it's not a cocktailbar.
It's it's a mishmash and we'llbe, 1910 to 1920s.
(31:17):
it'd be English, Irish, but notin your face.
It'd be a beautiful space.
have like a diner feel to it.
I have seen the renderings, soyeah, it's gonna be a
spectacular space.
Oh yeah.
It's not, it's gonna be nice.
Beautiful.
you're underselling a littlewhen you say it's gonna be a
beautiful space.
Yeah, it's gonna be a mishmash.
It's, it is a very well thoughtout.
Beautiful space you can feel thevelocity of the place.
(31:40):
Mm-hmm.
when you look at, the deck andthe renderings, certainly
somebody who has been doing thisfor a long time, you can feel
the motion and the emotion Yeah.
Of the place.
just by looking at renderingsand, and artwork.
It's pretty amazing.
It's pretty funny.
Some people, the renders are solike, so real looking that
people like, how's the bargoing?
Like, and I'm like, I mean,like, that's.
(32:01):
I'll let the, I'll let thedesign guys know, but, uh, we
haven't been open.
it's gonna be nothing likeanything here.
we don't wanna be these, youknow.
People coming in from New YorkCity and we're better than, you
know?
Mm-hmm.
So it's important like that weembrace the community and, you
know, we're not, you know, thesebullies coming in, that is a
thing down here.
they don't, they like you tocome visit.
(32:21):
yes.
But, I think that us living hereand, you know, through our
social media really learningabout, Charleston and, investing
our time in.
getting to know people and otherbusinesses, I think that's been
to our advantage.
It's, it's good and that's whatwe wanna do.
Uh, we wanna be respected andwelcome.
So, I dunno that, that's beengreat.
with all this time, you know,we've changed the setup so many
times.
I think it's it's a totally, nota totally different bar.
(32:44):
But, thing a lot of things havechanged, because you have that
time, oh, if we had just openedwhen we mm-hmm.
Thought we were, we totallydifferent bar.
So, which is a good and badthing.
I've never known a bar thatopened on time.
No, no, no.
I've never, I literally havenever known a bar that we're
like, we're gonna open inSeptember.
Oh, it's September.
Here we are.
Open the bar.
Yeah.
never known that.
We opened on time, our firstbar, our second restaurant.
(33:05):
Oh, was months and months late.
Yeah.
We opened on time because we gotfired from other jobs and we
were running out of money and wehad the money.
Money.
So we're gotta open, gotta paintthat.
Paint that we gotta open.
Yep.
Spray paint fine.
Well, you know, it's funny whatyou just said about coming down
here and being careful not to becarpet baggers.
and I think that's So, is thatwhat you call it?
Well, carpet baggers after theCivil War You'd have people come
(33:25):
in from the north and take theresources.
Yeah, take the, and anyway, sothat's private.
Someone comes in and says, I'mgonna make this part of the
community I just got here, butI'm make the, so, and I think
that's really important.
and it reminds me a lot of whatSean and Jack did before they
opened the dead Rabbit.
I remember Sean when they foundthe spot on Water Street, I mean
(33:47):
he sat.
On the, across the street, thebus station.
Yeah.
For hours to just see who waswalking by, what the day, what
it was like at three o'clock,what it was like at four
o'clock, what it was like onTuesday.
That's my next level.
I just like, it's like, butthat, but, but it's funny.
But you moved here, you movedhere to do that same thing.
I knew I liked Charleston.
I also wanted to change.
I knew New York City was nothealthy for me.
(34:08):
Personally, well, you also leftNew York City at a very
difficult time for New YorkCity, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we're in the middle of Covid.
People's manners disappeared fora little while.
It's really hard.
Yeah.
And everybody had time to thinkabout how they envision their
future.
Like, it just really made peoplelike look at their life and say,
okay, I need to make a change orwhatever.
(34:29):
So this opportunity.
Was great for me and, um, forSean to believe in me for us to
take this risk and leave and forhim to, uh, sell his shares at
Dead Rabbit and for us to dosomething together was, it was
huge.
And so I'm thankful for that.
I think you guys make a perfectteam.
So that's, one little voice inthe Yeah.
In the wind.
But I think you guys make aperfect Yeah, We are good
(34:50):
together as far as like creativegoes.
And we're learning, we know whatwe're good at.
we know what we're not, we arenot good at.
Mm-hmm.
And so we're, we're taking thistime to, learn about the things
that we.
We don't know about running,running a bar.
Mm-hmm.
learning about HR and learningabout, for me, different systems
and, especially'cause we haven'tran a bar in a few years.
Mm-hmm.
There's all this new, technologyand everything.
(35:10):
And so making sure that we arejust, I.
Opening this bar with the bestpossible systems and, and
programs and, well, you're alsoin a different state with
different laws.
Yeah.
Believe be, it's hard tonavigate and all that stuff.
But I will tell you the spot youare in right now, the, the
moment of time you're in rightnow was some of the most fun.
(35:31):
And some of the stuff I hatedmore than anything else.
In opening bars.
In opening the bars.
'cause right now, and this ishappening at Hazel and Apple,
you are not in total control ofyour timeline.
It sucks.
Right?
you have no Right.
It's construction people,architects, city officials,
investors.
Investors.
Yeah.
and so, and you're justpowerless.
Whereas when the bar's up andrunning I, I could steer the
(35:52):
ship, when the engines aren'tgoing yet, I can't steer the
ship.
So yeah, it's totally been ahard thing.
Like, Sean and I both have apersonality that we do like to
be in control a little bit.
Yeah.
Which is, people maybe don'tmaybe love that.
Those traits put us, but uh,once the bar is open, like then
we can kind of do do our thing.
That's what we're good at, butwe're, we've kind of been thrown
into this just very, I justvery.
(36:16):
Awkward, just, yeah, it's hurryup and wait.
I know.
and it's not a place where youcan just pull harder and things
will happen faster, right?
Yeah.
Right.
You're not, that's not the stageyou're in right now.
The city of official says thepermit's gonna take three weeks,
but it takes five.
He's a city official.
That's it.
There's nothing you can do aboutit.
Yeah.
I'm walking by the city officialbuilding and there's never
anybody there.
I'm like, They really like itwhen you yell at them.
(36:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
it always speeds.
Speed things up.
Yeah, I know.
Yeah.
Yelling is not, not, it's notgreat.
So a larger question, what doyou think is gonna be, because I
think you raised a really goodpoint about getting outta New
York and coming to a differentplace in a different state,
mark, you said as well.
But what do you think is gonnabe different in your life, in
your psyche, in your emotionalstate?
What's gonna be different aboutbeing a, managing a bar that
(36:58):
you're a partner in down here?
I.
As opposed to a New York City,because I think it's very, I'm
hoping it's a more civilizedlife down here maybe.
What is the difference?
you have a feel for what that'sgonna be like?
Yeah, I think, um.
having a comfortable home,having a car, like I live six
minutes from the bar, and, um,being able to, when you're, in
(37:20):
New York, you're like, okay,you're at the bar and you're
there until you go home.
Like here it's like, okay, I cango to lunch or I can pop out.
You.
It's a, it's just different.
The hours on his lates.
Sean and I know what what wedidn't like about our lifestyle
in New York.
I think we really are gonna workhard that we have a balance of
that we're not together all thetime.
(37:40):
Like, he's gonna be there in theday, dealing with maintenance
and kind of operations.
And I'll be there more, duringservice.
And then, having other people,that are, management or ma d and
having like, Supervisors andthings that are trained the
first year is mm-hmm.
You know, we, you gotta bethere.
It just, that, that's just it.
but the 33rd year, you stillhave to be there.
Yeah.
(38:00):
I, I know that.
I know, but like, I think, oneof my problems, I think I had I
always had to be.
Again into control.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
burning yourself out or notdoing anything very well because
you have too much, or saying yesto too many things has been a
big downfall for me.
Mm-hmm.
So like just.
Understanding that and knowingthat people wanna work, they
wanna do a good job, and hiringthe right people and investing
(38:23):
in people.
having a great education programand, giving people opportunities
only helps you know yourself.
but them, and, it's, that iswhat I wanna achieve and like
just create a great communityand a great working environment.
And it's something that, becauseI have more control over that
and to do things a little bitmore.
How I see it, is what I'm reallylooking forward to.
(38:45):
so I think New York also tendsto.
Wind you up.
Right?
Like New York.
New York.
Everything is frenetic,everything is, winds you up.
And here it strikes me as alittle more, uh, boxing.
Yeah.
I mean, it, it is frustrating alittle bit'cause you have to
adapt to the pace.
I'm on the sidewalk being like,hurry up, you know, you, I'm,
I'm the zigzag one and.
(39:06):
wearing, you know, combat bootsand all black, In Charleston,
but, like, oh, that's girls fromNew York.
But you know, I, you know,sometimes you're like, Hey, take
a beat.
but, you know, I also don'twanna like, just succumb to it.
I'm not gonna be like, oh, wellthat's just acceptable.
I think that we're never gonnabe that.
there's a lot of people that arereally, are eager to work with
us, and I look forward to givingthem the opportunity to like.
(39:30):
to get more educated in the barworld and in spirits and all
that kind of stuff.
I am still surprised.
We were in Philly last night.
And obviously we, and I am stillsurprised compared to New York,
even Philly's slower.
everything happens in Philly alittle bit more slowly than it
happens.
New York winds you up, man,winds you up in New York,
there's nothing like the NewYork market.
(39:52):
There's nothing like it.
Ready, set, go.
And you're sprinting.
And then, what's that?
It's the sun.
It just came up.
Yeah.
Right.
That's, that's how it works.
It's I go to New York nowactually quite often for,
another business I work with andI'm like, I need to sleep for
like a whole day and a half.
I'm like, I'm like, how did Ilive here for 12 years?
I'm exhausted.
this is crazy.
you get used to it, but thatit's like that sensory overload.
(40:16):
oh, we know.
Yeah.
Hey, listen, I want take a, Iwanna take a, we'll take a quick
break and come back on the otherside because I wanna talk about
some of your other ventures, Wehave an Irish whiskey that
you're involved in that we'regonna talk about.
Yep.
and, uh, we're also gonna drinksome of that Irish whiskey.
So, yeah, I've already taken acouple sips.
I'm, I'm like, I'm gonna, I'mlike, oh my God.
Like, I'm getting like, like drymouth talking some stuff myself.
See, that's why I got the glassof water for the somebody for
the before and then the whiskeyfor after.
(40:38):
Somebody once told us that, whenthey're around us, they just
drink more.
I'm like, yeah, that's why I gotin this room.
I.
You definitely make me wannadrink more.
Exactly.
Typically my mother said thesame thing though, and I think
she meant it in a different way.
Listen, we'll be back in just amoment.
When you're listening to therestaurant guys, you can always
find outmore@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
(41:15):
So we're back with Jillian andwe're gonna talk about some
whiskey that you are, involvedwith.
you gotta let us know what'sgoing on here.
This is not available in theUnited States yet.
Unfortunately it is not.
But tell us all about it.
it's called Out Walker and.
Been working on it for actuallya few years now.
Sean and I are both involved,alongside, uh, some other,
partners that are, uh, UK based.
(41:36):
Mm-hmm.
Um, where's it distilled?
When did, when did you startmaking it?
So, I didn't distill this SoAdrian McLaughlin, uh, was the,
general manager at the MerchantHotel when Sean was there.
Darren Cave, he, was a rugbyplayer.
they had some business, venturestogether they're like, well, we
should make a whiskey, so whoelse to call?
(41:56):
But Sean, and that was kinda howit started.
And usually things like thathappen and it never, never comes
to fruit.
Right, right.
Fruition, you know, I was like,yeah, okay.
so we kind of didn't know, butyeah, sure.
Fine.
so, we got, we have ownershipequity and everything.
Just by, you know, using ournetwork and helping build the
brand.
And I created the Blend and agreat northern distillery, which
(42:17):
is in oc it's not quite toBelfast, but it's like north of
the, uh, Dublin airport.
it, it was a really insane likelearning experience for me.
Uhhuh, I'm well known for.
Mixology, I hate that word.
Right.
But, um, you know, for cocktailcreation.
And so we knew that we had tomake a whiskey that was mixable
versatile.
But at the same time, you know,I, I didn't wanna lose my street
(42:40):
cred.
You know, I, I can't, can't, Ican't be having like, you know,
whiskey experts be like, oh,like this is shit, I didn't
wanna embarrass myself.
So I, I really had to makesomething that was unique and
versatile and affordable.
I know as a.
Somebody who's been a buyer for,for bars over the years that,
you have to, you can't buythings over a certain price
point, so, right, right.
That was the goal.
(43:01):
well, you certainly can't beusing it in the cocktails,
right.
Unless you're gonna charge 30,40, 50 for a cocktail.
Right.
Still can do, but we've beendoing a lot of talking and it's
made me very thirsty.
So, I'm sorry.
Sample this.
I, I actually began sipping whenJillian said it was okay, UNC,
Uncharacteristic of me.
I've been showing somerestraints.
So the, it's a.
It's a very pretty whiskey.
Very, I can say you could makethis in a cocktail.
(43:21):
Beautiful.
Absolutely.
so this is a blend.
It's, 40% green whiskey aged in,rye, Cass, so Oh, yeah.
Which is unique.
And that's Little spice.
Little spicy.
Yeah.
Little spicy.
Sure.
And, uh, the, another 40% greenwhiskey, Asian virgin American
Oak.
So that's giving, oh yeah.
The vanilla, you know, vanilla,yeah.
High spice.
as well as the kind of differentspice from the rye.
(43:42):
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And then it's 10% pot still agedin Roso, so it's giving you
traditional, I get all that andit's delicious.
It's not shiny.
Then my favorite part, myfavorite part is the 10% single
mal Asian white burger.
No.
So that really shut off,manipulates all the other
components and gives it thiscool minerality and just, I
(44:03):
don't know, it just, I feel thatit just manipulates everything
else into this, like tweaks itinto something a little
different than it traditionallyis.
So it's out Walker, Irishwhiskey.
Blended Irish whiskey.
Yep.
When is it gonna be available inthe United States ever?
we would love that.
Obviously.
the United States is one of thebiggest, consumers of Irish
whiskey.
Mm-hmm.
Easier said than done, finding adistributor, finding investment.
(44:24):
most of the guys who arespearheading it, that are in the
uk, Sean and I are here.
but the guys, they're doing agreat job.
And, we are in Germany, Sweden,Denmark, uk, and Ireland.
And so I've been able to go overthere and do some fun stuff.
So if anybody's heard, you needto bring me back a bottle in a
suitcase.
Yeah.
If you're the going there, bringone for me.
Yeah.
We, have, we have a lot of, in.
International listeners.
(44:45):
And so out Walker, the RestlessSpirit, blended Irish whiskey.
Mm-hmm.
You're coming back to NewJersey.
Or you're coming to Jersey.
This is what you stick in yoursuitcase.
Mm-hmm.
And then we have to mention thatyou are involved in a beverage
brand and a non-alcoholicbeverage brand that we actually
carry in the restaurant.
So tell us about Badger.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so Badger Bev's, it's astartup.
David Vogel, who's the CEO,David started this and he he saw
(45:05):
a, a kinda a hole in the market.
I was, uh, introduced to David,you know, he's like, oh, you
have Jillian's the person totalk to as far as bar stuff
goes.
So, you know, he sent me a bunchof products.
I jumped on a Zoom with him,tried the products.
made some cocktails with itactually on the Zoom and you
know, I just, the proof is inthe juice.
it was some of the best.
non-alcoholic.
(45:26):
Mm-hmm.
You know, mixers I've evertasted and I love the tonic.
Yeah.
It was definitely moreapproachable to an American
palate.
not as bitter, not as quinine.
And I think it's much moremixable with Lighter American
style gins as well.
It's also got some nice snap toit, right?
Yeah.
It's got some good carbonation.
that's one of the problems thatwe have Yep.
With a lot of tonics is Right.
(45:46):
is they just don't have theright bubble structure.
Yeah.
Right.
And that was my biggest issue asa buyer, you know, I was like,
nothing stays bubbly enough and,you know, a hundred percent
correct.
It's so annoying.
So this actually.
Has the highest PSI of, I thinkanything else on the market.
And it's regulated, so it'sbetween four and 4.5 total
sense, PSI.
it's also domestic.
(46:07):
it's the water source and thebottling happens in
Pennsylvania.
And so that's something else wepride.
So it's the PSI and that it's a,an American product and we are
already nationwide distributedthrough Chef's warehouse and so.
That's been really cool to seeit grow.
So we've fallen in and out oflove with several tonics over
the years.
Mm-hmm.
And we've fallen in love withtonics that then change their
formula and change their overtime.
(46:28):
I'm talking about, you know whatI'm talking about, right.
So yeah.
One day you pop a bottle andyou're like, well they, that's
not right.
They got a big investor andthey're like, well, then you f
it up.
Right.
Anyway, but this is, I do thinkthis is the best tonic on the
market.
I like a significant amount ofQuin.
I know.
It's not really bitter.
the PSI is super important andif you want a bar out there,
there's.
You know, there's a way to servea, a gin and tonic, right?
(46:50):
Your soda out of the gun willlose its bubbles immediately.
it's gonna be flat.
If you want to serve a gin andtonic like the Spanish way, I
love it.
Charge a dollar more, charge it$2 more.
Yeah.
And serve the little bottle.
Right next to it, port in frontof the customer and leave the
bottle there in front of them.
If you want to make it feel likethey're getting that extra
dollars worth, makes a totallydifferent, experience.
(47:12):
I would never be involved withsomething I didn't really
believe in, and anybody thatknows you would be like,
Jillian, was it Na product?
What?
You know?
So I really, really, let's callit a mixer.
Yeah, sorry.
No, it is, it's, it is a mixerand you know, I just love that
this has been.
Probably one of the highlightsof my career is working with
this group of people.
we are just silly and have fun,and they're so professional.
(47:33):
I've learned a lot about adifferent, you have a new
highlight now that you've beenon the restaurant guys, right?
Yeah, Yeah, yeah.
This is a pinnacle of yourspace.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, sorry.
I'm sorry.
Yeah.
This is, this is top, top, top,top.
Um, but it's been, you know, ahighlight of my career is
working with these people andlearning a different, part of
the industry and the NAA sectoris really hard.
So yeah, we are going to beevolved and have more options.
Mm-hmm.
(47:53):
you know, you have to kind ofadapt to what people want.
But knowing that this is thebest version of our product is
gonna be the badger comes in 250milliliter bottles, which are
the way to do it.
And the way I love to get barservice is like they would do in
the old hotels.
you open the bottle so that it'sall, the snap is in there and
you pour it in front of theguest and the snap stays there a
through your drink.
Yeah.
And I love that.
(48:13):
It's it's, the bubbles are like,it's not champagne bubbles, but
they're not like, you know, whenyou drink, like a parer or
something.
The bigger bubbles, it'sdrinking water.
Right?
They're not gonna do well in a,in a high ball.
But here it's it's kind of oflike that medium bubble and it
stays fizzy.
so wait, and we have gone allthe way in Geek Town, we came
from New York to Charleston, toGeek Town with Jillian goes,
(48:33):
sorry.
No.
And Jillian, nobody.
We'd rather have on the bus withus in Geek Town than you.
Uh, it's been a tremendous,conversation.
Thanks for having us into yourhome.
Yeah, of course.
It's been great.
It's been terrific.
Yeah.
Thanks for using coasters ahundred percent.
and we are looking forward tothe opening of, a Hazel and
Apple, and we'll keep you allinformed about that.
Yeah, yeah.
You guys will be the first toknow in Hazel and Apple upwards.
Yay.
(48:54):
I am France.
She's Gillian vs.
I'm Julian.
Wait, am I Francis?
No, you're Julian.
V Oh, it's okay.
She's Gillian Vase.
I'm Francis Shot.
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We're the restaurant guys.
Find outmore@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
Bye.
Hello everybody, and welcome.
You are listening to theRestaurant Guys.
I'm Mark Pascal and I'm herewith Francis Shot.
Together we own stage left inKaha Lombardi restaurants in New
Brunswick, New Jersey.
We're here to bring you theinside track on food, wine, and
the finer things in life.
Hello, mark.
Hey Francis.
How are you?
I'm good.
What do you got for me thismorning?
Well, you know, it's funny, I,we have been talking a lot about
our Charleston trip, but wepacked so much into that
(00:33):
Charleston trip where we learnednew things and did new things
that are exciting.
So, we gotta talk aboutCharleston again.
Okay, today's guest is JillianVoes.
Jillian is the general managerand partner.
She was the manager of the DeadRabbit in New York City.
and she is with our friend SeanMuldoon, a general manager and
partner of Hazel and Apple, downin Charles Hazel.
Apple gonna open right on KingStreet.
(00:54):
Right next to Ion.
Awesome.
Awesome.
We had a great time.
We went town.
We saw the space.
Yeah.
And the space isn't ready.
It's under construction, so Oh,it's very not ready.
Oh, it's not ready.
But their plans are great.
Their investors are great.
We met a bunch of the partnersand and we know those guys for
years.
It's gonna be terrific.
And we met Jillian in herapartment.
Yes.
Which was pretty amazing.
Yes.
Her apartment was built for alive.
(01:14):
A bartender, though it was notbuilt for a live small bartender
guy.
she's relocated down toCharleston and what she's doing
while she's down there is justgetting the bar ready.
But, she's got a littleapartment and she.
Has converted it into,'causeshe's doing a lot of events.
Mm-hmm.
So it's a lot of bar prep spacein her.
So it was a test kitchen at thesame time.
Yeah.
And she had, she was doing acouple events while we were
(01:37):
there and so there was SUVmachines and lots of coolers and
freezers and stuff.
Coolers and freezers and bottlesand mixes and, and they were
everywhere.
And I'm, you know what?
And I'm too big to live in thatapartment.
You are too big to walk aroundin that apartment.
But it was lovely.
We did the podcast from ourkitchen table.
We'll be talking about it later.
Uhhuh.
I love Jillian v.
Been, we've been friends for along time and to visit her
(01:58):
apartment.
She's anal retentive like I am.
Everything has a place, a placefor everything and everything in
its place.
Well, her apartment was almostlike a precursor to what Hazel
and Apple's gonna be.
Yeah, right.
Every piece of artwork, everypiece of furniture, thoughtful,
was thoughtful and had a storythat she could contextualize if
(02:18):
you were interested enough.
Yeah.
To ask What's that?
Yeah.
What's that?
And we did, we didn't do it foreverything'cause we didn't have
a ton of time, but we're like,what's that?
Oh, well that's, from, uh, rollDoll's book and I know it was
the first book I ever read.
You know, literally everything.
Had a story like that.
I love it.
And so, what was interesting totalk to her about the people
down in Charleston, and nowwe'll segue away from Jillian
'cause she's gonna be joining usmm-hmm.
(02:39):
To talk about herself in thefirst person momentarily.
But just the vibe down there wasawesome.
Yeah.
I have to say.
we met, we met and met the ownerof Prohibition, which is our
next Hazel Apple.
James.
The guy James is terrific.
Belfast man.
Yeah.
Francis (02:52):
and just everybody we met down there, the vibe is,
crazy mellow, and the fish isout of this world world
Mark (02:58):
I've been to Charleston before and it was a little
different this time.
Mm-hmm.
It had a little bit more, what'sthe word I'm looking for?
Vibrancy, Pepnet, step, notvibrancy.
It was, it's, it was vibrant thelast time too.
Okay.
But everybody was just moving alittle quicker, a little bit.
a, there was just a little bitmore.
(03:18):
Or sense of urgency going ondown there and not in a bad way.
Yeah, in a, in a good way,especially when I'm talking
about service.
I really felt, but I will tellyou, everyone was nice.
Everyone was sophisticated,everyone was polite and
deferential, as you mightexpect, Southern hospitality is
real.
It's real, but, but it's got areal sophistication to it too
that I just, I thought the wholething was tremendous and the.
The scene on King Street ofpeople walking around at all
(03:42):
hours of the day and night andwell dressed people and, who
were just having fun, you know?
Yeah.
And it was, there was nothingbut good vibes about the whole
place in the bars, everywhere onthe street.
It's terrific.
I don't.
Want to talk negatively aboutFlorida.
I've been down there a coupletimes in the last year.
Yeah.
my uncle's down there went downto the keys.
Yep.
And had a lovely time,everywhere I went in Florida,
(04:03):
Miami, I.
But Charleston is much more acity.
I could see myself saying, youknow what, I'm gonna spend a few
months a year down here andenjoy the weather in Charleston.
Much more so than that Florida.
And I know Florida's filled withmuch more New Jersey and New
Yorkers, but it does seem a.
That there are some more peoplefrom New York and New Jersey in,
(04:24):
in Charleston than there was thelast time I was there.
Our buddy Scott was telling usthat something like a hundred
people a day moved to Charlestonfrom the Raider, Charleston
area.
Interesting.
From the northeast.
and you could see why.
Yeah.
and what was funny, the otherthing, it was really striking,
comparing it to Florida, evencomparing it to places that are
less expensive.
Everything was less expensivedown there.
The meals, the cocktails, thewine and the wine list.
(04:46):
Yes.
And by the way, the other thing.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, the wines down there arereally sophisticated.
Yes.
Not just American wines,European wines.
Yes.
And they're, really inexpensive.
I'm going back.
I, there, there wererestaurants, even restaurants
that I didn't love that hadreally good intelligent wine
lists.
Yeah.
Yeah.
it was great.
And you, again, I was inCharlotte recently.
Charlotte doesn't have the samevibe that Charleston does.
(05:06):
Yeah.
Charleston really, reallylovely.
I can't think of a negativething to say about the city.
Do you know what I, you knowwhat I'm thinking?
What do you think?
As, as we were, our vacation wascoming to a close.
I was like, and I hear all thosepeople, northerners are moving
in there and, The, we looked atthe housing prices and the rent.
Mm-hmm.
And not that we're planning onmoving down there, but, and the
cocktails, and I thought.
this is a hidden gem.
(05:26):
And you know what happens tohidden gems?
They get unhidden, therestaurant guys talk about them
and then everybody moves there.
Yeah.
We're unearthing a gem.
maybe we shouldn't air this.
It's already all right.
It's already been unearth.
No, the world knows aboutCharleston already.
Yeah.
So Charleston is great.
I just hope it doesn't get eatenby its own popularity.
Yeah.
I hope it gets to retained whatit is, but It will have Hazel
and Apple from Sean Muldoon andJillian Voes from the Dead
Rabbit.
(05:46):
And we're gonna talk withJillian Vose in just a moment.
We're taking you back toCharleston right now.
Hello there everybody, andwelcome back.
We are talking to you from SouthCarolina at the home of Jillian
Vose.
You may have known Jillian Vosefrom her long tenure at the Dead
Rabbit in New York City.
she was at Death and Co andMeison Perme before that and
she's now opening a new projectdown here called Hazel and
(06:09):
Apple, in which Mark and I aregetting involved in Hazel and
Apple with our old friend SeanMuldoon.
the bar isn't open yet.
The bar isn't quite built yet,and so we are sitting in
Jillian's living room.
Thanks for having us, Jillian.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me, andwelcome to my humble abode.
it's great.
This is great.
This is our first, we were justpointing out before, this is our
(06:30):
first, podcast.
from someone's home, Well, it'sdefinitely better than the, uh,
construction site, of the bar,so I don't know.
That might've been exciting.
Yeah.
So, I don't know if you rememberthe first night that we met.
I don't know if I ever told youa story, but I met you and I, I
think I have this right.
You were at death and Company.
The day before you were to startwork at Death and Company and
(06:51):
you were at the bar with friendsand I wound up in the bar that
night and we just struck up aconversation.
Okay.
And you were the girl who wasgonna start at the, at death and
company.
Is that possible?
Am I remembering that correctly?
I mean, I'm sorry to say I don'tremember it.
It was a five minuteconversation, but I only
remembered it because then Iwent back a few times and saw
you behind the bar, and then webecame friends and we were
friends for a long time.
(07:11):
But yeah, we go back way back tothen.
Yeah.
So I was like, oh, I'm startingto work tomorrow.
You were gonna start there thenext day.
And that was, that's funny.
Yeah, the dodging process therewas pretty intense.
I think I had to go in and kindof like, because I had never, I
hadn't been there too many timesbefore I started working there.
I kinda had to go in and get anidea of what's going on.
so you came to New York as abartender.
Tell us about Jillian's arrivalin New York before you took it
(07:32):
over.
I meant New York where you tookover New York.
not quite, so I'm from Cape Cod,Massachusetts, just always been,
working since the day I couldlegally, maybe even before that.
and, I.
Played sports, played music, didwell in school.
And then, decided that insteadof going to college and playing,
field hockey competitively, Idecided to move to Arizona.
(07:53):
And I was like, where's far warmand cheap?
Arizona.
In Arizona and I al already hada lot of friends out there, so
kind of made sense.
And yeah, I got a one way ticketand.
And there I was.
So never been there in my life.
So think so.
You just went?
Yeah, I just went.
Took your stuff.
I just went, yep.
Turned it over your shoulder andsaid, I'm moving to Arizona.
Yep.
Did you know what you were gonnado out there?
(08:14):
Nope.
How old were you?
17.
17.
That's awesome.
Yep.
Yep.
17.
to be honest, my parents wouldnot have had any problem with
that.
They've been like, oh, you wannago do something?
Go get outta my house.
Well get outta my house.
Get outta my house.
Your parents.
Well, my thing was like, youtell me I, I can't do something
and that's exactly what I'mgonna do.
Mm-hmm.
So, you know, that's why, youknow, poor choices and tattoos
(08:35):
or, you know, If that's not yourattitude though, you will never
open a restaurant.
Yeah.
Because you crazy.
Well, and everybody in the worldwill tell you no.
That's a bad decision.
It a.
Including the three of us.
Everybody's done it.
Yeah, everybody's done it.
Like, so gimme advice, like,yeah, don't do that.
Don't do this.
It's a terrible idea.
I gotta tell you something.
We started shortly after webegan the restaurant guys, or
(08:57):
about the same time we startedwhen we were probably the first
food podcast in the world in Mayof 2005.
We were doing a bunch ofconsulting and then we, we had
the podcast and not a lot ofpeople knew about podcasts back
then, but people found out aboutus and hired us to consult.
Our best consulting advice wegave to people was like, here's
the minimum, here's theretainer.
I want it in advance.
And I do.
We listen to their business,bros.
(09:17):
We do the whole thing.
okay, our advice is consultantsdon't fucking do this.
And we had like four or fivepeople take us up on it and
they're like, okay, well if Iwanna do it, I'm like, okay,
then you have to do these thingshere.
Mm-hmm.
And like, yeah, maybe I won't,maybe I won't hear that.
How I start every consultingconversation is.
Is there anything else you cando that will make you happy?
(09:38):
Yeah.
Because you should do thatinstead of immerse yourself into
this crazy life that you'reabout to encounter.
Yeah.
Do you, do you want a babythat's actually just a building
and know, play whack-a-Mole witha maintenance every day.
Whack-a-mole is restaurantmanagement.
Yeah.
That's how I found in New Yorkwas like, oh, fix this league.
Oh.
Pop it up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(09:59):
I call it that.
Well, we're in a hundred yearold building, so we, so there is
same always something goingwrong.
Oh God.
Yeah.
And we own it.
Yep.
So the choice is you can fix itor it could keep leaking.
Yeah.
that's all there is.
Maintenance is very costly.
Yeah.
Well, and it's funny, mark and Ihave both, I particularly have
become much more handy over thecourse of the last 30 years of
running restaurants becauseyou're like, I, if you're gonna
(10:22):
have the HVAC guy come in.
I'm gonna stand behind him andwatch what he does.
'cause he seems to be doing thesame thing twice a year.
And if I can figure it out, it'sgonna save a ton of cash.
Yeah.
Jennifer comes to the restauranta lot for those who listen line,
you know, Jennifer Mark's wife,our producer mm-hmm.
And she's like, I just wanna getsome talking head shots.
I just wanna get some video ofyou guys.
And she's like, I.
How did you ever get any workdone?
here's the time we're supposedto meet, and the carpet guy and
(10:44):
the HVAC guy and the winesalesman are all here and you
have to Yeah.
Then the PMs went down.
Yeah, the went down.
Yeah.
And it's a Saturday night andthe fire alarm's going off.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
It's always, when it rains, itpours and people always say oh,
you're the beverage director,whatever, the bar manager, and
you're like, it's.
Yeah, glorious.
I went to like a, a restaurantand bar equipment, trade show in
Atlanta last week.
(11:04):
Like, how fun, you know, or,literally all my pockets and my
jeans from when I worked at,dead Rabbit or Death and Go,
like, they're all like, totallythey're totally worn out,
expanded, worn out.
Exactly.
Because, I had just tools, yeah,tools.
I had wrenches and screwdriversand keys that.
For everything and it was like,it was just so funny.
It was a glorified mechanickind, but you love it plumber,
(11:25):
but you love it.
One of one of learned a lot.
Learned a lot.
I was just talking to the chefabout this in the last week or
so, there was a day, so our hotwater heater is in its own
little room off the back of thekitchen and somebody left the
window open in the middle ofwinter time, and so all the
pipes froze in the hot waterheater and then thawed, and then
they unfroze, right Andro.
(11:47):
The hot water heater juststarted springing leaks of
boiling water.
Right.
So you couldn't get close toturn it off that hot pool.
Yeah, it's, and it's 300gallons, so the choice is go in
there and turn it off at thebottom or 300 gallons of water
is gonna go.
into your restaurant, but it hada self-defense mechanism.
It was shooting hot water at youif you tried to get near it.
(12:08):
Oh my God.
So everybody's ah, it's justboiling water and there's
nothing we can do.
I'm like, I'm in a suit.
I'm the maitre d.
And I go in there and I'm justlike, ah, boiling water all over
me, soaking wet hit the mechanicand send Mark to the hospital.
Need to dry out for a littlewhile before I step on the
floor.
What I, why was somebody inthat.
(12:28):
Hot water room and opening awindow.
It's still a mystery.
It's a restaurant business.
Still a mystery because it's arestaurant business.
let's quit whining about we lovethis light.
We love this.
It is a great light.
there's a reason you don't go toan office every day.
You could have if you stayed atthe rabbit and went a different
way.
You could even in the restaurantbusiness, have been more of an
office job if you wanted it.
(12:50):
I'm really not.
That's not my strong Of coursenot.
You'd be bored.
I and many people then tell youlike, you have to do a
spreadsheet or inventory.
I'm like, oh, numbers.
Yeah.
Listen, I'm in Charleston.
I'm in in Jillian v's.
Apartment.
We're gonna go out to lunchafter this.
We're at the Wine and FoodFestival.
I'm doing this'cause of the funstuff, but you gotta be ready
for the whole deal.
(13:10):
I gotta tell you gotta be readyfor the whole deal.
On the adrenaline.
I'm gonna throw this back toboth of you guys.
I, there was a day, you knowwhat the day that encapsulated
at frame memo most was?
It was the, okay, here's the jobof the owner.
The sewage ejector pump went onthe fritz, right?
And that's all of the sewagefrom the first floor, all of it,
right?
So in that afternoon, firststories, maybe you shouldn't
(13:30):
tell.
'cause it's funny, but nobodyshould.
So it was gross and it was awfuland I didn't love that while I
was doing it.
Three hours later, the governoris in to dinner and I'm
recommending dinner to thegovernor and I'm like, I like my
life, life.
I'm in this, I'm in the toiletthis afternoon.
Fixing it.
Yeah.
I was on the roof the day beforeand now I'm in the dining room
(13:53):
serving the governor Burgundy.
I like that it's, it's moreinteresting.
It makes life more interest.
And you guys do too.
Am I right?
Yes.
Very much.
Like is Burgundy has a certainearthy smell?
No, I'm sorry, governor.
That's me.
That's me.
It's the CIO of the Rioja.
You're drinking Sarah.
That's.
Well, okay, so you're at theDead Rabbit and, I'm a regular
frequenter of the Dead Rabbit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's how we became betterfriends.
(14:14):
Yeah.
We've seen you've seen eachother more at the Dead Rabbit
than anywhere before.
So The Dead Rabbit was owned bytwo friends of mine from
Belfast.
Sean and Jack, and we've hadJack on the show and we've had
Sean on the show.
Mm-hmm.
But, so they decided to godifferent ways in what they
wanted to do and manage the barsthat they wanted to manage.
And you and, Sean came down hereto Charleston.
Yep.
And while Jack is taking thedead rabbit in a different
(14:36):
direction, opening multiple deadrabbits around this, country and
Irish exits and Irish exits andth sports bar and the whole
thing.
You and Sean were like, we wannahave a bar.
We want a home and be greathome.
So talk to us about the choicethat you made to come here and
be part of this.
And then we wanna talk aboutlike, moving to Charleston and
changing gears and all that.
But what was the change thathappened?
(14:56):
What, how did the, what's Hazeland Apple is gonna be the name
of the place.
Yes.
That's gonna open this year.
Yeah, we can get into that maybeafter.
Yeah.
But tell us about your life andthe choice with Hazel and Apple
and how Hazel and Apple's gonnabe distinct from the mission you
would've had if you stayed atthe dead rabbit.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, um, didn't even finish thelast question, but yeah.
Came to New York, and, you know,got lucky a little bit, worked
(15:17):
hard and where I am, had somegreat opportunities from taking
bar five day.
Which really opened up a hugenetwork for me.
which is kind of like thedoctorate programming in bar
back in the day.
Bartending.
Yeah.
This was 2010 that I took it sothat was one of the first years
I did it.
It was one of the only femalesthat did it too.
It's five intensive days of bartraining.
(15:38):
That, and I'm a fellow, bar,five day graduate.
And it was, and Mark made fun ofme because I had never had an
energy drink before until I wentto the bar five day.
'cause it's A day of nine, 10hours of training, and then you
have a test at the end of theweek, and then your next day is
nine and 10 hours.
So the only choice is to go homeand not sleep and study what you
learned the day before.
Yeah, it's insane.
(15:58):
So you were at Bar five day whenyou were where?
At the Dead Rabbit or before?
No, no, no.
I, I, moved to Arizona after,after high school.
Um, kind of hit a ceiling there.
I worked in fine dining, workedat a brewery, and then I moved
over, back home to Cape Cod andkind of figuring out, oh, I'm
gonna go to Boston, I'm gonna goto New York.
And the opportunities in NewYork were just like, there was
so much more potential.
Mm-hmm.
so like, what year is this?
This is 2000.
(16:19):
Nine or 10, I don't even knowanymore.
So, so the cocktail world isreally extreme.
It, yeah.
This is like, you know, deathand going open, really gone p dt
and Milk and Honey.
They were kind of like, yep.
They were, the cool kids, youknow, and still are.
so I was home on the Cape anddecided to, I was gonna go to
New York.
Mm-hmm.
But, I had heard people talkabout Bar five day, this is
before you had to take BarSmarts first too.
I didn't even know what that wasat the time.
(16:40):
And so I literally like filledin the application the night
before or I called, I like,called the phone, I called the
mm-hmm.
The, the landline and like,called like answer the phone.
I was like, wasn't expectingthat.
He's like, well, you know, if wecan get your application in the
next day.
And so I did.
And, um, I didn't get any helpwith the cost.
But it was the best thing I did.
(17:00):
'cause it was people I met onthat, and that group was, well,
like I said, especially at thattime.
Right.
that was like.
I'll call it stage two, right?
So the early days in thenineties and, early aughts, you
had a, a group of people.
Yeah.
And then that, oh five to 2010,you had that kind of, that next
group of people who grew.
It's cool to see the tree, likethe schools that then developed
(17:23):
a branch, branch out, which is areally cool thing to see.
I, I also wanna point out likein obviously in an early
dedication to your craft, thatbar five day was like$5,000,
wasn't it?
At the time I did, I think atthe time I did.
I think it was like.
25 or 25, 27.
But yeah.
But that was a long time ago.
In today's dollars, that's fouror$5,000.
Yeah.
And most people who took it hada company or corporation.
(17:44):
Right.
Responsive brand resume.
Me.
I didn't get like a scholarshipor anything.
Like I invested in my future,like I wasn't going to college
or whatever.
Sure.
I just heard that it was likethe thing to do and I was like,
I didn't expect to get in.
And so I literally was like,well, I'm not gonna go to New
York and pay for a hotel.
I go, I'm just gonna move.
So I slept on an air mattress inmy new apartment in the Upper
East Side, and you've developeda certain style here when you
(18:05):
moved from one city to another,apparently, where you kind just,
I just wing it backpack and I'mhere.
Yeah.
Lots of funny stories aboutthat, but I know we're getting
off track, but I just wanted togo from there, but, so.
Like that experience led me to,work at, at Clover Club for a
bit.
and also gave me the opportunityto meet the right people to be
on the opening team on MaisonPremier.
Yeah.
Where I met the bar manager atthe time, Thomas Wa, who used to
(18:28):
come in on Friday nights andwatch me get my butt kicked and
they needed a bartender.
It's just I had a little bit ofluck, but just worked hard and
picked up shifts and was just,did everything I could to learn
and, you know, it was fake ittill you make it.
Mm-hmm.
Like I really had to catch up,if you know what I mean, Uhhuh,
um, because I didn't have thatNew York experience.
but I was a bartender, you knowwhat I mean?
(18:50):
Like, I knew how to multitaskand I was like, I was fast and I
could, do the dance.
but as far as like the.
The education of spirits orcocktail making.
that took some time.
And it really wasn't until deathand Co that I was surrounded by
people like Joaquin Smo andThomas, and, Phil Ward, Brian
Miller, like those guys justeven being around them and
(19:10):
understanding balance andmm-hmm.
Um, like just like differentsugars.
And why would you use this ryeover that rye?
And it, I really had.
Probably the most influentialtime in my career was there.
and yeah, but for me, I thinkyou did things in the right
order, right?
So your first order of businessis, okay, I gotta get the syntax
(19:32):
of what this job is.
I have to, okay, I do thisfirst, I do this next, I do this
next.
I multitask.
I prioritize this, I prioritizethat.
I'm a bartender to thecustomers.
And that you have to do thatbefore, and I feel like a lot of
bartenders now are trying to dothe other part first.
Okay.
I wanna learn about, how to makedrinks and the balance of the
drinks.
(19:52):
And I feel like that needs tocome second.
And after the mechanics.
After the mechanics and letsomebody teach you those things
after you've learned themechanics.
I really do believe that youshould hire four people who are.
Excited about the craft ormm-hmm.
You know, wanna do a good job,have a good attitude, and like
they're, teachable.
I was definitely somebody whoreally enjoyed the social aspect
(20:15):
of it.
I loved working.
I I didn't complain.
I just, I worked all the time.
I loved it.
And because I didn't really dothe whole college thing,
although I'm still payingstudent loans.
Um, but, that was my college,Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Like the friends I made at thebrewery I worked at was, are
like, I'm still friends with'emto that this day.
And it was like, when I learnedhow to, how to bartend, it was
(20:38):
like, oh, we're just throwingyou in.
you've already worked here for acouple years.
Mm-hmm.
You've been a food runner,you've been a, you can
multitask, but.
You're going on on a Fridaynight.
And I, I remember, it wasshaking.
Yeah.
And it's after an hour.
I was fine, but I, I remember,like I, I've been here, I know
these people.
Why am I, like, can't pour abeer?
how I learned how to bartend wasmake it blue, make it pink,
blah, blah.
I'm like, mm-hmm.
(20:59):
What if it's wrong?
Like, you can't return shots,Jill.
It's fine.
Yeah.
And you know, you can't, um, sothat was, a brewery, so you're
not getting.
So many drinks.
a more forgiving environment.
Yeah.
For me, starting at a RedLobster, really, I screwed it
up.
Sorry.
That's does actually like thosecorporate environments that the
training programs are actuallygreat.
Like when you see like aStarbucks or a TJ Fridays on
(21:21):
somebody's resume, you're like,oh, they've gone through this
corporate training.
It's good thing sometimes.
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah, they, they didn't havethat back then.
Um, but yeah, so I mean,anyways, like I think it was a
great, like probably the mostinfluential.
Part of my career as far as likecreativity and learning about
how to make drinks and running abar and kind of figuring it out.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but, Jack, asked me to comeon board at Dead Rabbit, like
(21:45):
only about a year after theyopened.
And, They were new to New York.
They were new to America, andthey didn't really have many
systems in place.
And so it was cool to use what Ilearned, even just a little bit
at, death and Co and, now it'smuch more mm-hmm.
Uh, you know, detailed andeverything, but, It was a great
experience, but like it, it did.
(22:05):
Eight years is a long time tostay somewhere, when you're
working long hours and you're inthe same building or,
relationships change and, Seanand I worked very closely
together on the creative side ofthings.
So, we did a lot the socialmedia and we did, the
photography and we.
Did the books together and allthe PR stuff and you know, being
an ambassador for the brand andtraveling on behalf of the bar
and when all that stuff, but,which I think that Rabbit did
(22:28):
better than any other bar thatI've ever seen.
Really?
that stuff.
Yeah.
Uh, People always talk aboutdrinks and the place and the
feel of the place, theproduction stuff was just
absolutely amazing.
I, and for me, and this is not ashot, I think there are other
places that give you the vibethat the dead rabbit can give
you.
It's at the convivial feel goodkind of place.
(22:49):
But the stuff that you guysproduced between the books and
the, the comics and all thoseother, and that's, that's all
Sean graphic things that, thatyou produced.
We're singular.
there's nothing like that.
Yeah.
I mean, I honestly like thestorytelling Through everything
that, that we did.
again, Sean is that visionary.
He so much research andeverything he does, there's a
reason for everything.
(23:10):
everything on the wall.
There's a reason for, the mosaicon the floor.
Mm-hmm.
Or that picture is, there's astory behind everything and it's
not You need.
you don't ha it's not in yourface, but it's there if you want
it, it to know more.
And that's, Hazel and Apple willbe that way too.
Very much so.
before, before we get to Hazeland Apple,'cause I do want, we
should start talking more aboutHazel and Apple, but just at
(23:31):
when you came onto the Dead rep,were you just brought in as a
bartender?
We were as a manager.
What did you start at?
I was brought on as a barmanager.
and, It is hard, like, and I'vedone it two ways, like where
I've been a bartender that movedinto a, a management role, which
is very difficult.
because then it's like you Ohyeah.
It's hard to not be that person.
Like they're not gonna listen tome like they were your peers.
Right?
(23:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we did it when we opened.
You wanna be everybody's buddy,so it was really hard.
Yeah.
And we were 26, 27 years oldwhen we opened.
And, ev everybody on staff wassomebody that was a peer of
ours.
They were 22 to 27 years old aswell.
And yeah.
And it, it was harder to manageand people that you had worked
with in other spaces and back, Iregret a lot.
I would do things a lotdifferently for sure.
(24:13):
Tell us for sure.
what would you do?
Go ahead.
What are some of the things cometo mind?
Yeah.
well, I mean at one point Ithink they called me the Barback
Slayer.
and I look at like how.
my temper would've got the bestof me.
Mm-hmm.
and not, um, very proud of it.
But, drinking on the job, thatkind of stuff, like those are
things that I wish it was partof a culture.
Mm-hmm.
that's not professional.
And that definitely got me intotrouble a few times.
(24:34):
Mark and I talked about that atthe time.
We may have even talked about iton the old radio show.
Mm-hmm.
I don't recall, but it went froma time, so Mark and I have
always worked in a bar wherewhen you make last call, the
bartender can pour them shelf, Ashift drink.
Yeah.
Or two, depending on the policyof the house.
So we always had to drinkafterwards, but never were we
allowed to drink behind the barand never did tell that's not
(24:56):
true.
When you did the wine class andyou brought me a glass of wine
of 1976, Roman Conti Osh.
And but that's the exception,prove the rule and it was worth
breaking the rule.
We had one extraordinary bottleof wine once during a wine
class, and we got permission todrink it, but we never allowed
bartenders to drink and.
That was the rule in mostplaces.
Mm-hmm.
(25:16):
And then for a while, all thesecraft cocktail bars, people were
drinking behind the bar allnight long.
Half the staffs were of NewYork, were half in the bag like
it was.
It was all the cocktail bars allthe time.
When you say it was the culture,it was the cocktail.
It was the culture, but I'm alsolike a hundred.
15 pounds at that time.
I can't keep up with these guys.
Well the other thing is it grewup and then it went away.
(25:37):
You don't see that anymore?
I don't see people drinkingbehind the bar at all.
No.
I think it's which is great.
I think it's hard because youknow, you wanna be able to do it
and have that like kind of funcheers kind of thing.
Mm-hmm.
But you know, as long as likeyou just have rules, Yeah.
Um, I.
We have to decide as like amanagement team with Apple, it
was such what that's gonna beand like, I think it depends on
the place, but I think, uh, asfar as it goes with that topic,
(25:57):
I think it's just be consistentWell, I think that's over now.
I think in all the serious barsnow it's, you know, it's a
profession and part of it beinga profession is that, you need
to act professionally in thebar.
so here you are at the DeadRabbit, and.
Jillian's gonna make a change.
Jillian and Sean are gonna goand do Hazel and Apple.
Yeah, take us from Water Streetin New York to where we are
(26:20):
sitting now here in SouthCarolina with Hazel and Apple
under construction.
you know, I was saying abouteight years is a long time, for,
one place, especially if you'renot an owner and you have to
make that decision.
Do I.
Wanna stay in this, or, but Iwas definitely getting burnt
out.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I definitely hit a wall andNew York City is not easy, I
moved there 24, 25 and justlike, literally was just hit the
(26:43):
ground like, you know, I reallywas burning it at both ends.
And I, you know, I just waslike, not.
As productive I as I could be.
And I think it was a mutualdecision, like on, I was really
good at what I did, but at theend of the day, it was like, all
right, you need a break.
I went on a sabbatical.
Mm-hmm.
Um, that When was that?
Like a day?
Um, a day.
(27:03):
No, I'm kidding.
A day left.
Sab.
I like that.
No, I mean, again, like you findmy inner piece.
No, no.
Okay.
There it is.
No, but I, I did, you know, Ithink like we all decided like
all.
If we wanna move forward as ateam, like mm-hmm.
Sabbatical might be a good idea.
And that was a year sabbatical.
But in the, after even a couplemonths of that, Jack and Sean
decided to part ways and Mm-hmm.
(27:24):
But Sean and I were gonna do ourown thing because we were
working together mostly, like itwas him and I that did, the PR
and the creative stuff.
Mm-hmm.
And they wanted to move in adifferent directions.
So it all worked out for thebest, for everybody.
and originally the location herein Charleston was going to be, a
dead rabbit.
when that partnership broke up,part of that deal or whatever is
(27:46):
that we got this space and itwas gonna be totally different.
And so, we put together theconcept of Hazel and apple, and
it's a representative of Seanand i's personality, Hazel being
Sean and Apple being me.
Anybody that knows me even alittle bit, knows that I'm
obsessed with apples or anythingto do with apples.
So, so why Hazel?
(28:06):
For Sean?
in Irish folklore.
It is representative of wisdomand storytelling.
and with an Apple isrepresentative of rebirth, youth
so.
And you're actually plantingsome apple trees in the
courtyard, right?
sure, yes.
We'll see.
Last hopefully.
Yeah, it might take a while forthose to actually be.
(28:29):
Fruitful.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So, and it's, the yin and yangof our personalities and which
every good partnership needs.
Yes, yes.
I promise.
Yes.
so yeah, we worked really welltogether and we knew like he's
the best at what he does in asfar as a visionary and, concept
and everything, and, and hebelieves that I'm good at what I
do.
So.
I shared his belief that youwere good at, at what you do.
(28:50):
So talk to us about Hazel andAmple and the, what the bar's
gonna be like.
'cause we are super excited tosee it open later this year.
so are we, it's definitely, uh,we've gone through some hurdles
for sure.
we definitely want to have ourown identity and set us apart.
I think it's really hard toseparate yourself.
Mm-hmm.
When you.
Been such a big part ofsomething that's been
(29:10):
successful.
but when we open, I think peoplewill realize that we are
different people.
You know, we've had a few yearsto reflect.
And When did you leave DeadRabbit?
now it's been three years.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, for me.
Right.
Uh, maybe a little less for Seanit doesn't feel that way.
Yeah.
It feels like.
It was a year ago, you know?
(29:31):
Mm-hmm.
But, we are both grateful for,even though it's been
frustrating for the hurdles thatwe've, encountered with the bar
being pushed back, but.
Maybe the universe like it justhappened.
And, and, we're very gratefulfor the time and to reflect on,
the things that have happenedor, to embrace this new
lifestyle and understand how wecan do things better and be
(29:52):
better partners, be betterfriends.
put up some boundaries and not,you know, work 16 hours a day
and six days a week, like maybewe used to.
Francis aren't doing so wellwith the boundaries.
Yeah.
He and I aren't doing so wellwith the boundaries.
Yeah.
But because I'm pretty sure hetexted me at three 30 this
morning and I'm pretty sure thatI called him at five this
morning, so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Actually, Sean texted me,sometimes, and he goes, well, I
(30:12):
forgot you're five hours behind.
I go, uh, no you didn't.
No you didn't.
No, you did not.
I know excuses wearing thin.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
So talk to us about, about Hazeland Apple though.
So what's it gonna be like,where is it gonna be in
Charleston and what's the what,how's it gonna change the
Charleston Irish bar landscape?
well, first and foremost, it'snot gonna be an Irish bar.
it's a community tavern.
(30:33):
something that we really wantthe local community to embrace
and feel comfortable and bethere, not just for special
occasions, but to really reallyhave it be part of the
community.
Mm-hmm.
Um.
gonna be, well this is yourcommunity now, right?
Right.
This is where you live in thisgreat,'cause you've been here
for the last few years.
Mm-hmm.
It's been cool to learn aboutCharleston and learn about, meet
people and other bar owners,other business owners, and, our
(30:55):
food program will be, we'lldefinitely wanna work with,
local vendors and local farmsand, be sustainable as possible.
but as far as like.
The, uh, the concept, if youwill.
it's not a pub.
It's not, it's not a cocktailbar.
It's it's a mishmash and we'llbe, 1910 to 1920s.
(31:17):
it'd be English, Irish, but notin your face.
It'd be a beautiful space.
have like a diner feel to it.
I have seen the renderings, soyeah, it's gonna be a
spectacular space.
Oh yeah.
It's not, it's gonna be nice.
Beautiful.
you're underselling a littlewhen you say it's gonna be a
beautiful space.
Yeah, it's gonna be a mishmash.
It's, it is a very well thoughtout.
Beautiful space you can feel thevelocity of the place.
(31:40):
Mm-hmm.
when you look at, the deck andthe renderings, certainly
somebody who has been doing thisfor a long time, you can feel
the motion and the emotion Yeah.
Of the place.
just by looking at renderingsand, and artwork.
It's pretty amazing.
It's pretty funny.
Some people, the renders are solike, so real looking that
people like, how's the bargoing?
Like, and I'm like, I mean,like, that's.
(32:01):
I'll let the, I'll let thedesign guys know, but, uh, we
haven't been open.
it's gonna be nothing likeanything here.
we don't wanna be these, youknow.
People coming in from New YorkCity and we're better than, you
know?
Mm-hmm.
So it's important like that weembrace the community and, you
know, we're not, you know, thesebullies coming in, that is a
thing down here.
they don't, they like you tocome visit.
(32:21):
yes.
But, I think that us living hereand, you know, through our
social media really learningabout, Charleston and, investing
our time in.
getting to know people and otherbusinesses, I think that's been
to our advantage.
It's, it's good and that's whatwe wanna do.
Uh, we wanna be respected andwelcome.
So, I dunno that, that's beengreat.
with all this time, you know,we've changed the setup so many
times.
I think it's it's a totally, nota totally different bar.
(32:44):
But, thing a lot of things havechanged, because you have that
time, oh, if we had just openedwhen we mm-hmm.
Thought we were, we totallydifferent bar.
So, which is a good and badthing.
I've never known a bar thatopened on time.
No, no, no.
I've never, I literally havenever known a bar that we're
like, we're gonna open inSeptember.
Oh, it's September.
Here we are.
Open the bar.
Yeah.
never known that.
We opened on time, our firstbar, our second restaurant.
(33:05):
Oh, was months and months late.
Yeah.
We opened on time because we gotfired from other jobs and we
were running out of money and wehad the money.
Money.
So we're gotta open, gotta paintthat.
Paint that we gotta open.
Yep.
Spray paint fine.
Well, you know, it's funny whatyou just said about coming down
here and being careful not to becarpet baggers.
and I think that's So, is thatwhat you call it?
Well, carpet baggers after theCivil War You'd have people come
(33:25):
in from the north and take theresources.
Yeah, take the, and anyway, sothat's private.
Someone comes in and says, I'mgonna make this part of the
community I just got here, butI'm make the, so, and I think
that's really important.
and it reminds me a lot of whatSean and Jack did before they
opened the dead Rabbit.
I remember Sean when they foundthe spot on Water Street, I mean
(33:47):
he sat.
On the, across the street, thebus station.
Yeah.
For hours to just see who waswalking by, what the day, what
it was like at three o'clock,what it was like at four
o'clock, what it was like onTuesday.
That's my next level.
I just like, it's like, butthat, but, but it's funny.
But you moved here, you movedhere to do that same thing.
I knew I liked Charleston.
I also wanted to change.
I knew New York City was nothealthy for me.
(34:08):
Personally, well, you also leftNew York City at a very
difficult time for New YorkCity, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we're in the middle of Covid.
People's manners disappeared fora little while.
It's really hard.
Yeah.
And everybody had time to thinkabout how they envision their
future.
Like, it just really made peoplelike look at their life and say,
okay, I need to make a change orwhatever.
(34:29):
So this opportunity.
Was great for me and, um, forSean to believe in me for us to
take this risk and leave and forhim to, uh, sell his shares at
Dead Rabbit and for us to dosomething together was, it was
huge.
And so I'm thankful for that.
I think you guys make a perfectteam.
So that's, one little voice inthe Yeah.
In the wind.
But I think you guys make aperfect Yeah, We are good
(34:50):
together as far as like creativegoes.
And we're learning, we know whatwe're good at.
we know what we're not, we arenot good at.
Mm-hmm.
And so we're, we're taking thistime to, learn about the things
that we.
We don't know about running,running a bar.
Mm-hmm.
learning about HR and learningabout, for me, different systems
and, especially'cause we haven'tran a bar in a few years.
Mm-hmm.
There's all this new, technologyand everything.
(35:10):
And so making sure that we arejust, I.
Opening this bar with the bestpossible systems and, and
programs and, well, you're alsoin a different state with
different laws.
Yeah.
Believe be, it's hard tonavigate and all that stuff.
But I will tell you the spot youare in right now, the, the
moment of time you're in rightnow was some of the most fun.
(35:31):
And some of the stuff I hatedmore than anything else.
In opening bars.
In opening the bars.
'cause right now, and this ishappening at Hazel and Apple,
you are not in total control ofyour timeline.
It sucks.
Right?
you have no Right.
It's construction people,architects, city officials,
investors.
Investors.
Yeah.
and so, and you're justpowerless.
Whereas when the bar's up andrunning I, I could steer the
(35:52):
ship, when the engines aren'tgoing yet, I can't steer the
ship.
So yeah, it's totally been ahard thing.
Like, Sean and I both have apersonality that we do like to
be in control a little bit.
Yeah.
Which is, people maybe don'tmaybe love that.
Those traits put us, but uh,once the bar is open, like then
we can kind of do do our thing.
That's what we're good at, butwe're, we've kind of been thrown
into this just very, I justvery.
(36:16):
Awkward, just, yeah, it's hurryup and wait.
I know.
and it's not a place where youcan just pull harder and things
will happen faster, right?
Yeah.
Right.
You're not, that's not the stageyou're in right now.
The city of official says thepermit's gonna take three weeks,
but it takes five.
He's a city official.
That's it.
There's nothing you can do aboutit.
Yeah.
I'm walking by the city officialbuilding and there's never
anybody there.
I'm like, They really like itwhen you yell at them.
(36:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
it always speeds.
Speed things up.
Yeah, I know.
Yeah.
Yelling is not, not, it's notgreat.
So a larger question, what doyou think is gonna be, because I
think you raised a really goodpoint about getting outta New
York and coming to a differentplace in a different state,
mark, you said as well.
But what do you think is gonnabe different in your life, in
your psyche, in your emotionalstate?
What's gonna be different aboutbeing a, managing a bar that
(36:58):
you're a partner in down here?
I.
As opposed to a New York City,because I think it's very, I'm
hoping it's a more civilizedlife down here maybe.
What is the difference?
you have a feel for what that'sgonna be like?
Yeah, I think, um.
having a comfortable home,having a car, like I live six
minutes from the bar, and, um,being able to, when you're, in
(37:20):
New York, you're like, okay,you're at the bar and you're
there until you go home.
Like here it's like, okay, I cango to lunch or I can pop out.
You.
It's a, it's just different.
The hours on his lates.
Sean and I know what what wedidn't like about our lifestyle
in New York.
I think we really are gonna workhard that we have a balance of
that we're not together all thetime.
(37:40):
Like, he's gonna be there in theday, dealing with maintenance
and kind of operations.
And I'll be there more, duringservice.
And then, having other people,that are, management or ma d and
having like, Supervisors andthings that are trained the
first year is mm-hmm.
You know, we, you gotta bethere.
It just, that, that's just it.
but the 33rd year, you stillhave to be there.
Yeah.
(38:00):
I, I know that.
I know, but like, I think, oneof my problems, I think I had I
always had to be.
Again into control.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
burning yourself out or notdoing anything very well because
you have too much, or saying yesto too many things has been a
big downfall for me.
Mm-hmm.
So like just.
Understanding that and knowingthat people wanna work, they
wanna do a good job, and hiringthe right people and investing
(38:23):
in people.
having a great education programand, giving people opportunities
only helps you know yourself.
but them, and, it's, that iswhat I wanna achieve and like
just create a great communityand a great working environment.
And it's something that, becauseI have more control over that
and to do things a little bitmore.
How I see it, is what I'm reallylooking forward to.
(38:45):
so I think New York also tendsto.
Wind you up.
Right?
Like New York.
New York.
Everything is frenetic,everything is, winds you up.
And here it strikes me as alittle more, uh, boxing.
Yeah.
I mean, it, it is frustrating alittle bit'cause you have to
adapt to the pace.
I'm on the sidewalk being like,hurry up, you know, you, I'm,
I'm the zigzag one and.
(39:06):
wearing, you know, combat bootsand all black, In Charleston,
but, like, oh, that's girls fromNew York.
But you know, I, you know,sometimes you're like, Hey, take
a beat.
but, you know, I also don'twanna like, just succumb to it.
I'm not gonna be like, oh, wellthat's just acceptable.
I think that we're never gonnabe that.
there's a lot of people that arereally, are eager to work with
us, and I look forward to givingthem the opportunity to like.
(39:30):
to get more educated in the barworld and in spirits and all
that kind of stuff.
I am still surprised.
We were in Philly last night.
And obviously we, and I am stillsurprised compared to New York,
even Philly's slower.
everything happens in Philly alittle bit more slowly than it
happens.
New York winds you up, man,winds you up in New York,
there's nothing like the NewYork market.
(39:52):
There's nothing like it.
Ready, set, go.
And you're sprinting.
And then, what's that?
It's the sun.
It just came up.
Yeah.
Right.
That's, that's how it works.
It's I go to New York nowactually quite often for,
another business I work with andI'm like, I need to sleep for
like a whole day and a half.
I'm like, I'm like, how did Ilive here for 12 years?
I'm exhausted.
this is crazy.
you get used to it, but thatit's like that sensory overload.
(40:16):
oh, we know.
Yeah.
Hey, listen, I want take a, Iwanna take a, we'll take a quick
break and come back on the otherside because I wanna talk about
some of your other ventures, Wehave an Irish whiskey that
you're involved in that we'regonna talk about.
Yep.
and, uh, we're also gonna drinksome of that Irish whiskey.
So, yeah, I've already taken acouple sips.
I'm, I'm like, I'm gonna, I'mlike, oh my God.
Like, I'm getting like, like drymouth talking some stuff myself.
See, that's why I got the glassof water for the somebody for
the before and then the whiskeyfor after.
(40:38):
Somebody once told us that, whenthey're around us, they just
drink more.
I'm like, yeah, that's why I gotin this room.
I.
You definitely make me wannadrink more.
Exactly.
Typically my mother said thesame thing though, and I think
she meant it in a different way.
Listen, we'll be back in just amoment.
When you're listening to therestaurant guys, you can always
find outmore@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
(41:15):
So we're back with Jillian andwe're gonna talk about some
whiskey that you are, involvedwith.
you gotta let us know what'sgoing on here.
This is not available in theUnited States yet.
Unfortunately it is not.
But tell us all about it.
it's called Out Walker and.
Been working on it for actuallya few years now.
Sean and I are both involved,alongside, uh, some other,
partners that are, uh, UK based.
(41:36):
Mm-hmm.
Um, where's it distilled?
When did, when did you startmaking it?
So, I didn't distill this SoAdrian McLaughlin, uh, was the,
general manager at the MerchantHotel when Sean was there.
Darren Cave, he, was a rugbyplayer.
they had some business, venturestogether they're like, well, we
should make a whiskey, so whoelse to call?
(41:56):
But Sean, and that was kinda howit started.
And usually things like thathappen and it never, never comes
to fruit.
Right, right.
Fruition, you know, I was like,yeah, okay.
so we kind of didn't know, butyeah, sure.
Fine.
so, we got, we have ownershipequity and everything.
Just by, you know, using ournetwork and helping build the
brand.
And I created the Blend and agreat northern distillery, which
(42:17):
is in oc it's not quite toBelfast, but it's like north of
the, uh, Dublin airport.
it, it was a really insane likelearning experience for me.
Uhhuh, I'm well known for.
Mixology, I hate that word.
Right.
But, um, you know, for cocktailcreation.
And so we knew that we had tomake a whiskey that was mixable
versatile.
But at the same time, you know,I, I didn't wanna lose my street
(42:40):
cred.
You know, I, I can't, can't, Ican't be having like, you know,
whiskey experts be like, oh,like this is shit, I didn't
wanna embarrass myself.
So I, I really had to makesomething that was unique and
versatile and affordable.
I know as a.
Somebody who's been a buyer for,for bars over the years that,
you have to, you can't buythings over a certain price
point, so, right, right.
That was the goal.
(43:01):
well, you certainly can't beusing it in the cocktails,
right.
Unless you're gonna charge 30,40, 50 for a cocktail.
Right.
Still can do, but we've beendoing a lot of talking and it's
made me very thirsty.
So, I'm sorry.
Sample this.
I, I actually began sipping whenJillian said it was okay, UNC,
Uncharacteristic of me.
I've been showing somerestraints.
So the, it's a.
It's a very pretty whiskey.
Very, I can say you could makethis in a cocktail.
(43:21):
Beautiful.
Absolutely.
so this is a blend.
It's, 40% green whiskey aged in,rye, Cass, so Oh, yeah.
Which is unique.
And that's Little spice.
Little spicy.
Yeah.
Little spicy.
Sure.
And, uh, the, another 40% greenwhiskey, Asian virgin American
Oak.
So that's giving, oh yeah.
The vanilla, you know, vanilla,yeah.
High spice.
as well as the kind of differentspice from the rye.
(43:42):
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And then it's 10% pot still agedin Roso, so it's giving you
traditional, I get all that andit's delicious.
It's not shiny.
Then my favorite part, myfavorite part is the 10% single
mal Asian white burger.
No.
So that really shut off,manipulates all the other
components and gives it thiscool minerality and just, I
(44:03):
don't know, it just, I feel thatit just manipulates everything
else into this, like tweaks itinto something a little
different than it traditionallyis.
So it's out Walker, Irishwhiskey.
Blended Irish whiskey.
Yep.
When is it gonna be available inthe United States ever?
we would love that.
Obviously.
the United States is one of thebiggest, consumers of Irish
whiskey.
Mm-hmm.
Easier said than done, finding adistributor, finding investment.
(44:24):
most of the guys who arespearheading it, that are in the
uk, Sean and I are here.
but the guys, they're doing agreat job.
And, we are in Germany, Sweden,Denmark, uk, and Ireland.
And so I've been able to go overthere and do some fun stuff.
So if anybody's heard, you needto bring me back a bottle in a
suitcase.
Yeah.
If you're the going there, bringone for me.
Yeah.
We, have, we have a lot of, in.
International listeners.
(44:45):
And so out Walker, the RestlessSpirit, blended Irish whiskey.
Mm-hmm.
You're coming back to NewJersey.
Or you're coming to Jersey.
This is what you stick in yoursuitcase.
Mm-hmm.
And then we have to mention thatyou are involved in a beverage
brand and a non-alcoholicbeverage brand that we actually
carry in the restaurant.
So tell us about Badger.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so Badger Bev's, it's astartup.
David Vogel, who's the CEO,David started this and he he saw
(45:05):
a, a kinda a hole in the market.
I was, uh, introduced to David,you know, he's like, oh, you
have Jillian's the person totalk to as far as bar stuff
goes.
So, you know, he sent me a bunchof products.
I jumped on a Zoom with him,tried the products.
made some cocktails with itactually on the Zoom and you
know, I just, the proof is inthe juice.
it was some of the best.
non-alcoholic.
(45:26):
Mm-hmm.
You know, mixers I've evertasted and I love the tonic.
Yeah.
It was definitely moreapproachable to an American
palate.
not as bitter, not as quinine.
And I think it's much moremixable with Lighter American
style gins as well.
It's also got some nice snap toit, right?
Yeah.
It's got some good carbonation.
that's one of the problems thatwe have Yep.
With a lot of tonics is Right.
(45:46):
is they just don't have theright bubble structure.
Yeah.
Right.
And that was my biggest issue asa buyer, you know, I was like,
nothing stays bubbly enough and,you know, a hundred percent
correct.
It's so annoying.
So this actually.
Has the highest PSI of, I thinkanything else on the market.
And it's regulated, so it'sbetween four and 4.5 total
sense, PSI.
it's also domestic.
(46:07):
it's the water source and thebottling happens in
Pennsylvania.
And so that's something else wepride.
So it's the PSI and that it's a,an American product and we are
already nationwide distributedthrough Chef's warehouse and so.
That's been really cool to seeit grow.
So we've fallen in and out oflove with several tonics over
the years.
Mm-hmm.
And we've fallen in love withtonics that then change their
formula and change their overtime.
(46:28):
I'm talking about, you know whatI'm talking about, right.
So yeah.
One day you pop a bottle andyou're like, well they, that's
not right.
They got a big investor andthey're like, well, then you f
it up.
Right.
Anyway, but this is, I do thinkthis is the best tonic on the
market.
I like a significant amount ofQuin.
I know.
It's not really bitter.
the PSI is super important andif you want a bar out there,
there's.
You know, there's a way to servea, a gin and tonic, right?
(46:50):
Your soda out of the gun willlose its bubbles immediately.
it's gonna be flat.
If you want to serve a gin andtonic like the Spanish way, I
love it.
Charge a dollar more, charge it$2 more.
Yeah.
And serve the little bottle.
Right next to it, port in frontof the customer and leave the
bottle there in front of them.
If you want to make it feel likethey're getting that extra
dollars worth, makes a totallydifferent, experience.
(47:12):
I would never be involved withsomething I didn't really
believe in, and anybody thatknows you would be like,
Jillian, was it Na product?
What?
You know?
So I really, really, let's callit a mixer.
Yeah, sorry.
No, it is, it's, it is a mixerand you know, I just love that
this has been.
Probably one of the highlightsof my career is working with
this group of people.
we are just silly and have fun,and they're so professional.
(47:33):
I've learned a lot about adifferent, you have a new
highlight now that you've beenon the restaurant guys, right?
Yeah, Yeah, yeah.
This is a pinnacle of yourspace.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, sorry.
I'm sorry.
Yeah.
This is, this is top, top, top,top.
Um, but it's been, you know, ahighlight of my career is
working with these people andlearning a different, part of
the industry and the NAA sectoris really hard.
So yeah, we are going to beevolved and have more options.
Mm-hmm.
(47:53):
you know, you have to kind ofadapt to what people want.
But knowing that this is thebest version of our product is
gonna be the badger comes in 250milliliter bottles, which are
the way to do it.
And the way I love to get barservice is like they would do in
the old hotels.
you open the bottle so that it'sall, the snap is in there and
you pour it in front of theguest and the snap stays there a
through your drink.
Yeah.
And I love that.
(48:13):
It's it's, the bubbles are like,it's not champagne bubbles, but
they're not like, you know, whenyou drink, like a parer or
something.
The bigger bubbles, it'sdrinking water.
Right?
They're not gonna do well in a,in a high ball.
But here it's it's kind of oflike that medium bubble and it
stays fizzy.
so wait, and we have gone allthe way in Geek Town, we came
from New York to Charleston, toGeek Town with Jillian goes,
(48:33):
sorry.
No.
And Jillian, nobody.
We'd rather have on the bus withus in Geek Town than you.
Uh, it's been a tremendous,conversation.
Thanks for having us into yourhome.
Yeah, of course.
It's been great.
It's been terrific.
Yeah.
Thanks for using coasters ahundred percent.
and we are looking forward tothe opening of, a Hazel and
Apple, and we'll keep you allinformed about that.
Yeah, yeah.
You guys will be the first toknow in Hazel and Apple upwards.
Yay.
(48:54):
I am France.
She's Gillian vs.
I'm Julian.
Wait, am I Francis?
No, you're Julian.
V Oh, it's okay.
She's Gillian Vase.
I'm Francis Shot.
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We're the restaurant guys.
Find outmore@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
Bye.
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