October 16, 2025 • 32 mins
This is a Vintage Selection from 2012
The Banter
The Guys taste something new and unusual.
The Conversation
The Restaurant Guys hear a revolutionary idea from Jim Lahey of how to make not only bread, but pizza dough with his no-knead method. Jim discusses the obstacles many folks face while baking at home and his suggestions to overcome them so you, too, can make great pizza!
The Inside Track
The Guys hear what Jim really thinks about a typical pizza.
“Most of the dough and our notion of pizza that's out there is really bad. Industrialized. Hopeless. Sad. You could say the pizza lacks self-esteem.
The Pizza Mafia is probably planning a hit on me,” Jim Lahey on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2012
Bio
Jim Lahey is the founder of Sullivan Street Bakery and a pioneering force in modern breadmaking. Trained in Italy, Lahey introduced his signature “no-knead bread” method in The New York Times, sparking a global home-baking movement. His slow-fermentation techniques, minimalist approach, and unwavering commitment to craft have influenced chefs, bakers, and culinary programs around the world.
Info
Jim’s books
My Bread
My Pizza
The Sullivan Street Bakery Cookbook
Sullivan Street Bakery Celebrates 30 Years
https://w42st.com/post/three-decades-of-dough-how-sullivan-street-bakery-became-a-nyc-institution/
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark (00:41):
Good morning, mark.
Hey
Francis (00:42):
Francis, how are you this morning?
Pretty good.
I would like to discuss with ourlisteners, uh, the Manhattan
Cocktail Classic, which, uh, we,uh, just experienced here in New
York City, which we gotta callsomebody and say.
Mark (00:54):
Mother's Day weekend.
Oh my goodness.
Oh, crushing.
Francis (00:57):
We presented at the Manhattan Cocktail Classic,
seminars for the first two yearsof its existence.
And on the Sunday.
And
Mark (01:02):
that's, that's normally when we presented was on the
Sunday
Francis (01:05):
and it's Mother's Day weekend.
Are you kidding?
It's Mother's Day Day.
It's Mother's Day itself.
It was Mother's
Mark (01:09):
Day Day and this year we had the, the hailstorm of, and
for those of you who don't know,you know, Rutgers is in New
Brunswick, and that's where ourrestaurants are.
So Rutgers graduated.
On Mother's Day.
Yeah, it was nuts.
It was 40,000 studentsgraduating Mother's Day Mayhem.
Francis (01:26):
Well that was a really, that was an unfortunate move by
Rutgers that probably took threequarters of a million dollars
out of the Middlesex Countyeconomy.
Mark (01:32):
Oh, it took a lot.
That's for sure.
Certainly, certainly.
Because you would close to that,
Francis (01:35):
you would have, you know, all the restaurants in the
county would be busy or, or inthis part of the county anyway,
would be busy on Mother's Day.
Mm-hmm.
And then again, a week or twolater on, on graduation day.
But you know, if yourrestaurant's 95% busy.
Okay.
I had 105% worth of business,but then I, I lost a, I lost
Giordanother crazy busy Sunday.
Really crazy.
You know,
Mark (01:53):
I'm, I'm gonna take this into it down to a more personal
level because,'cause that's kindof my job and, and, uh, because
I'm the mean one, I revel in
Francis (02:02):
being the mean one.
Mark (02:04):
Be, but you also took a day that's supposed to be all
about mom.
You made it all about the kidagain.
Francis (02:10):
Yeah.
Unless mom was graduating, inwhich case you, unless mom was
graduating, you still combinedher days, you know what I mean?
You
Mark (02:15):
still took one of her days away.
Exactly.
Yeah.
No, yeah.
I didn't, I didn't get, get allthat, but, uh, so you got to
spend some time with theManhattan Cocktail Classic While
I was, was reveling in therevelers.
Francis (02:25):
Well, while you were minding the story, you mean,
while you, while you kept ourbusiness afloat, actually, we,
we, I caught the last hour, justthe last hour of the Manhattan
Cocktail Classic Gala, which isthe mm-hmm.
I, I'm sorry.
That's the, that's the coolestconsumer cocktail party in the
country every year.
Bar none.
It's, it is
Mark (02:41):
the, what a magnificent event it is.
I mean, just every great telianis in, and this
Francis (02:46):
year, by the way, is in the
Mark (02:47):
place.
Francis (02:47):
Well, and well, every great cocktail is in place.
All the cocktail enthusiast arethe place.
The music they had this year wasbetter than ever.
They rent the entire New YorkPublic Library, right?
Yeah.
3000 of your closest friends.
it's black tie or commensuratelyFancy.
You may wear a fedora if youhave a I.
What?
I
Mark (03:02):
have to say my favorite thing about the change to this
year's, what's that?
Is an an app to see where yourfavorite bartenders are?
Yeah.
How cool was that?
There
Francis (03:10):
was a Manhattan Cocktail classic app that you
download your download on yourphone to keep track of all the
events that are going on allaround the city and where you
are and who's pouring what inrelation to you.
That was very cool.
Yeah.
And surprising.
I didn't know that was coming.
So, and the, the music wasfantastic this year.
They had, Vince Giordano and theNighthawks.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, who, Vince Giordano and theNighthawks are a classic big
band.
(03:30):
They play in New York once in awhile, and they're also on
Boardwalk Empire.
They do a lot of the soundtrackfor Boardwalk Empire.
Right.
Absolutely.
And Ted is the dramaturg for,for the slavishly literal, and
correct, you know, scenery andall, and all the stuff that goes
on.
And especially the drinking.
Culture and the music.
It's just, it's just phenomenal.
And the whole thing wasphenomenal in the New York
Public Library and they set up,you know, drink stations all
(03:52):
over.
I was only there for an hour.
Uh, I went to the Campari area,and, uh, I had some fantastic
drinks there.
Campari had a, a bunch of coolstuff, going on there.
That was, that was.
Terrific parties and it was, itwas just great.
one of the more interestingthings that we have in addition
to all the seminars we went tois on the last day, there is
(04:13):
basically a spirits tasting.
I mean hundreds of spirits thatmay not be distributed in New
York, New Jersey.
Yeah.
It's not really
Mark (04:20):
a spirit sta it's, it's different than a, than your
average spirits tasting anindependent.
It's artisanal, exactly.
Yeah.
The
Francis (04:25):
independent stuff.
Mm-hmm.
Oh wow.
I found some really cool stuff.
And so with your permission, Iwanna talk about a few things,
but with your permission, mark,I grabbed a couple of bottles of
things that were poured therethat aren't yet available here.
I think they're just becomingavailable here.
Really unusual things, and Iwanna see if we can do a blind
tasting.
You have my permission.
(04:45):
Alright, hold on a second.
So talk to the people while Imake a drink.
Mark (04:47):
All right.
So Francis is, is literallygetting up now and, and getting
ready to make a drink.
He's got clear liquids in, clearbottles, so I can't tell what
they are.
So I know that was a clearliquid.
Yeah.
Francis is stir, by the way, incase you're wondering.
Francis is stirring and thebartender kind, not the
(05:08):
discontented kind.
so Francis really is gonna, hasbrought me back some stuff that
he wants me to taste blind andthat always scares me a little
bit.
'cause whenever you tastesomething blind, you always have
the opportunity to look really,really stupid.
Francis (05:24):
I don't know how you're gonna react to this because I
didn't get the opportunity totaste it blind, but I thought it
was fetching.
We'll see if you, if you agree
Mark (05:31):
fetching.
Francis (05:32):
I was like, what is that?
Can I tell you something?
Yeah.
There's
Mark (05:34):
really nothing that I drink that I consider fetching.
Well, you haven't had this yet.
Now, have you not?
Hoo nor Gator.
You haven't had this Gatoradenor the finest red wine in all
the land.
Francis (05:48):
Okay, now this is the, is the less interesting one to
me because it's, it's a vodkaand I find vodka.
I think vodkas are great, but asa category.
I find it a little lessinteresting.
So what's
Mark (05:57):
really cool about having the show on a podcast and not
broadcast, Terrely right here isFrancis and I terrestrially and
he hasn't even had a drink yet.
Terres.
Man, not saying that again.
Uh, is that, uh, Francis and Ican drink while we're on the
show.
How cool is that?
Yeah.
You're not allowed to haveliquor in commercial radio
station.
Not allowed.
In a radio station.
Yeah.
Francis (06:16):
FCC,
Mark (06:17):
that's, that's so you don't get drunk.
Oh, yeah.
And say stupid stuff.
Well, Francis, I don't mind ifwe get drunk.
Exactly.
You don't
Francis (06:23):
mind either.
Our listeners, Can you tell, ordo you have an idea what what
the base of that vodka might be?
What it's from.
Yeah.
What is distilled to make thatvodka?
Hmm.
Mark (06:34):
Well, one thing I will tell you is the vodka's dense.
I get a lot of viscosity fromit.
Um, but the base of that vodka,I have no idea.
can I guess, uh, make one guessand do me a favor, try it warm
first.
Okay.
Because it's actually, Francishas made me a martini, so I'm
gonna go back to trying it,trying it at room temperature.
(06:55):
I don't, I don't know.
It's got a little kind ofcarness
Francis (06:59):
to it.
Little bit of a carness to it.
Yeah.
Um, is there a, do, do you findthe nose kind of different at
all?
Very.
and on the pal I find it.
Well, what do you find on thepalette?
Mark (07:09):
Like I said, it's, it's fairly viscous mm-hmm.
Francis (07:11):
For vodka.
And, and even in its, in it'swarm state, I find it fairly
viscous as well.
Mm-hmm.
I'm gonna pour you a gin madefrom the same base material,
which is, so they, so they madea
Mark (07:21):
vodka and then they made a gin from the vodka.
That's very
Francis (07:24):
interesting.
So, hold on.
Mark (07:26):
It always has to taste first in case you're wondering.
Francis (07:28):
I that's delicious.
Mark (07:29):
I wanna make sure it's right
Francis (07:30):
in there.
I think you can really see thatthat's a different gin.
It smells great, doesn't it?
Juniper and, yeah.
Yeah.
But there's something elsethere, and you're not gonna be
able to get what it is, but it'srounder and sweeter.
It's unbelievable.
Mark (07:43):
It's plums.
Francis (07:44):
No, here and here.
You said round and sweet.
Here.
Try.
I was talking about you.
Sorry.
Uh, the gin is what I'm reallyin love with and that's, Ooh,
isn't that crazy?
Boy, the gin's great.
Doesn't it almost taste likeit's already made into a martini
or something?
It's just straight.
I didn't even Is great.
(08:04):
Isn't that fantastic?
The gin is great.
Bar Hill, gin of Vermont.
Spirit from they syrup?
Nope, from Caledonia Spirits.
Good.
It's made from honey.
Ah, that's cool.
They're both made from rawhoney.
That's cool.
And this has Juni and they havejuniper in the Gin.
The gin.
I think it's f Magnifi.
Fantastic, isn't it?
The
Mark (08:23):
gin is magnificent.
I I, the vodka didn't, didn'tmake me say wow.
But the gin is magnificentbecause you can
Francis (08:29):
almost get the honey there, but it's almost ethereal.
You don't know what it is.
Mark (08:32):
That's really good.
Francis (08:34):
That's me pausing to sip, by the way.
It's a little early in the day,but it's already made.
I don't want it to go to waste.
Yeah.
Okay, so we're gonna put thisall up on the website under
Restaurant Guys Radio.
Mark (08:43):
I get a little bit of mead in here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I get a little bit of mead,more, more than just the honey.
I, I taste, I taste mead.
Francis (08:49):
and with the, with the gin.
I think the juniper goes so wellwith that.
That honey, it's amazing.
Mark (08:55):
definitely it is very, very fragrant gin.
Yeah.
you know, sometimes that almostgets a, a bitter note to it.
Yep.
When the, when the juniper'sall, all fired up in there.
Yeah.
And this doesn't have that atall.
Francis (09:07):
It's so clean.
It's freaking great.
Mark (09:09):
So taking Giordanother sip.
By the way, Francis, say theshow wondering what Francis is
doing.
If you get a little pause therewhere there's no one talking,
that's Francis sipping on hismartini.
Francis (09:20):
I was just about to say, the show would go much
slower if we had martinis duringthe show every time just to
allow for a sipping time anyway.
I would say that my mostexciting find for the Manhattan
Cocktail Classic 2012 is, um,Caledonia Spirits Bar Hill Gin
from.
Honey.
I mean, yeah, that was reallycool.
And it's their own bees.
I mean, it's all New York Statehoney for their own bees.
(09:43):
Isn't that crazy?
You mean Vermont?
Vermont?
I'm here to what, say Vermontfor you?
It's all north.
That's my job.
It's north
Mark (09:48):
of us.
It's all north of us.
Someplace cold.
Almost Canada.
That's Canada light.
Francis (09:53):
and if you can go to Manhattan Cocktail Classic next
year.
By all means go.
Yeah.
Mark (09:57):
It's, it's, it is a great, great program.
I'm gonna, if you want, ask themnot to do it on Mother's Day.
I was gonna say, and if youwanna
Francis (10:02):
write them a letter telling them not to do it on, on
Mother's Day, that'd be reallyterrific.
Hey, listen, stick with us.
We're gonna learn how to makepizza at home.
No kidding.
Really not.
The crappy pizza at home in the,in the Toast oven.
And we're gonna make real pizzaat home, uh, with one of the, I
dunno, most important guys.
Having to do with Dough inAmerica.
Jim Leahy, uh, he owned SullivanStreet Bakery.
He invented the no need methodof making bread that's taken
(10:25):
over the world.
He's got a restaurant calledCompany in in Manhattan and his
new book is My Pizza.
The Easy No Need Way to MakeSpectacular Pizza at Home.
And we'll be talking with him injust a moment.
You're listening to theRestaurant
guys@restaurantguysradio.com.
And our guest today is JimLahey.
Jim owns Sullivan Street Bakeryin New York City, one of our
favorite bakeries, one of thebest bakeries in New York City,
(10:46):
and that makes it one of thebest bakeries in the country.
He also owns company Restaurant.
He's method of no need.
Dough for bread, revolutionizedbread baking around the world.
And his new book is called MyPizza.
The Easy No Need Way to MakeSpectacular Pizza at Home.
Hey Jim, welcome to the show.
Jim (11:02):
Oh, thank you, mark.
Thank you, Francis.
Francis (11:04):
Your bread place is pretty cool.
You opened in 94 on SullivanStreet.
Jim (11:10):
Yes.
Uh, I opened in 94.
and it was a very, um, it was avery, let's say, uh, formative,
formative experience for me.
Francis (11:18):
Well, your bread instantly became a hit around
New York.
You were kind of the bread kingof, of, uh, of lower Manhattan.
And were, I'm sorry.
Thanks, man.
You, but it's true.
I mean, everybody, what is itcalled when you become
something, but you're still it?
What is that tense?
I don't know what that is.
I don't, I don't know.
But you, I don't know
Jim (11:36):
what I, I'm just, I'm, I'm just a man.
Who makes bread?
Francis (11:42):
Well, listen, man, uh, I cook, I
Jim (11:44):
cook things.
Francis (11:44):
Your, your bread immediately became the darling
of, downtown.
And, uh, your bread not only wasjust about in your store, but
you began to supply a lot ofreally cool restaurants, which
you still do.
And, uh, you moved to biggerdigs where you supply a lot of
folks.
Now let's talk about someinnovations that you came up
with.
I think obviously the, uh, thebread shot heard around the
world was when Mark Bitmancovered your No need method of
(12:08):
of making bread dough.
That was a really importantmoment for you, wasn't it?
Jim (12:13):
Yes, that was, uh, you know, without realizing it.
And certainly if I, I knew nowwhat I knew then, and I was
maybe more of a.
A normal American, uh,capitalist kind of guy.
I would've capitalized on allthat.
I just was kind of like tsunamiand overwhelmed, um, by the
(12:34):
response and kind of, you know,kind of shocked,
Francis (12:38):
it changed the way people will make bread
professionally as well as athome.
I mean, it was reallyrevolutionary.
Can you, you wanna tell ourlisteners a little bit about
how, well go back
Jim (12:45):
to this, go back to this notion of practice and go back
to this notion of standard.
And if, if we're gonna change,if I'm gonna change or affect
change in a culture, and I wouldlove in my lifetime to know that
I've changed the way we look atbread, the way we eat bread, the
way that bread is made, uh, andalso the standards that exist
(13:06):
for bread.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
Mm-hmm.
Jim (13:08):
The only way we can make that happen is not like, it's
not the trickle down theory, butit's the trickle up theory.
It's gotta stored in the home.
Uh
Speaker 4 (13:17):
huh.
Jim (13:18):
It's gotta, we, we have to unlock and unleash and, and help
people get over their, theirinhibitions or fears or whatever
issues they have with like doughor wet, gooey, sticky things as
it relates to food.
And, and make it almost, youknow, kind of idiotically simple
(13:38):
or idiotically, seeminglyidiotically.
How did that happen?
you know, the objective of theno need method in, in trying to
get it out there was to giveeveryone, as many people as I
could.
The same aha moment, the sameexperience, the same catharsis
that I had the very first timethat I successfully made bread
(13:59):
in my home when I was likeliving out in Long Island, out
in au, or when I was living in agarage in Williamsburg.
And, baking outta my home ovenfor street markets.
Francis (14:10):
let's talk about your book.
Uh, my Pizza, the easy, no needway to make spectacular pizza at
home.
Now you have the no need methodof bread, which you invented and
you've gone on from your bakeryto own company, which is a, a
pizzeria restaurant, a Prestaurant.
No need pizza dough.
We really don't need to need ourpizza dough.
Jim (14:28):
Would you consider pizza dough or dough to be even the
same family of bread?
Francis (14:33):
I do.
Jim (14:33):
Okay.
Therefore, why?
Why do we need, why do, why dowe think.
Why do we think that way?
Francis (14:39):
I don't know.
Jim Lehey has taught us that weare, we've thought wrong.
'cause evidently we don't needto.
Yeah.
I mean, I
Jim (14:43):
remember once upon a time, the reason why bagels and bread
sucks, uh, and pizza sucks inFlorida is because you need New
York water.
Have you ever heard of anythingso ludicrous?
Francis (14:54):
Yeah, I, I, I remember that, Rumor or what is that a
myth?
I remember that Well.
It's like,
Jim (14:58):
it became like a, you know, it saved more of a, when we say
things like this, it's more of asymptom of what we don't know.
Right?
Francis (15:05):
You made you, you didn't know, so you had to make
something up to make it makesense.
Jim (15:08):
Yeah.
You gotta have the water fromNew York, from Brooklyn.
It's real.
Brooklyn Water.
These bagels are made withBrooklyn Water here.
So, you know, it's all, it's allit's there.
Yeah.
We import our water, uh, to makeour bagels and our pizza.
Yeah.
Jim, thoughts?
Jim,
Francis (15:22):
I I just wanna interrupt you to say, I like
having you on the show becauseit's a whole cast of characters
we get on the other side overthere.
That's great.
You were two different guysthere.
That was great.
I'm like, no, I'm like 20.
Oh really?
You should see someone aboutthat, but I know, but no, so
the, no, the no need pizza.
Your pizzas look fantastic.
And what's really exciting aboutthis is I think.
Most people have an idea thatpizza, really, you need a
(15:45):
specialized oven, you need aMario Bati oven with the fire in
there, and it takes a day.
Mario?
Mario
Jim (15:50):
just wants to sell, sell more, uh, goods and, uh, I get
it, man.
There's, and he, he will.
There's, by the way,
Francis (15:57):
by the way, they're also pretty cool ovens.
Yeah.
But what's cool about your bookis you teach people how to make,
and I don't think people aregonna believe it until they
actually try it.
Yeah.
Um, make pizza on a stone intheir oven at home, really
possible to be great that way.
Jim (16:10):
Yeah.
And you can make pizza at home.
That is.
Better than anything you couldbuy at your local pizza joint
pizzeria, artisan artisanal,so-called artisanal Neapolitan,
uh, caputo double zero zero bx.
Francis (16:24):
Alright, I, I just wanna put out there that this is
coming from Jim Lehe, whobasically invented the known
need, bread baking, whichrevolutionized bread baking
around the world.
You know, first written about byMark Bitman.
I
Jim (16:36):
just wanna say one thing.
You know, my, my bread is beingtranslated into Italian.
Uh,
Francis (16:41):
really?
Jim (16:41):
Yes.
That's awesome.
That's a huge honor to jump thepond.
Francis (16:44):
My bread is the first book and for an American book on
bread be translated into Italianis quite, um, that's quite a
feat.
I know.
Jim (16:50):
I'm, I'm looking forward to the Italian book tour.
That's,
Francis (16:54):
that sounds great.
Alright, so, but my pizza,
Jim (16:57):
at home, you can make, using my method, you can make
spectacular pizza at home.
And the book is really trying toopen up the language for what
can go on.
A dough, if the dough itselfwhen you open it is the canvas.
And there, there are a myriad ofpossibilities of some requiring
(17:19):
that are vegan.
I, I tried to do a, a whole listof, uh, a whole group of pizzas
that are, you know, veganfriendly.
Unfortunately, we don't have a,a gluten-free pizza.
But, uh, who knows?
Who knows?
It's,
Francis (17:31):
it's called a bowl of vegetables.
Yeah, it's called a bowl of,yeah, yeah,
Jim (17:34):
exactly that.
There's a solution.
There you go.
A bowl of vegetables.
That's the gluten-free diet.
Francis (17:38):
So, let's talk about, let's, let's debunk some of the
myths that most people have orsome of the preconceptions that
most people have about pizza.
I need oven that gets up to athousand degrees to cook pizza.
Okay.
Tell us what, how,
Jim (17:51):
well, newer ovens often have like shutoff temperature
limits, right?
And sometimes electrical ovensagain, have like a thermo, a
thermal control called a highlimit switch.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Mm-hmm.
Jim (18:03):
Which will turn the oven off if it gets, if the internal,
even the broiler goes over 600.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
Right.
Jim (18:08):
Uh, you can bypass that sometimes by keeping the door
open a jar and in some cases.
With older ovens that, that likehave broilers in the top of the
oven, not the bottom.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Right.
Jim (18:18):
Uh, or new ovens that have broilers in the top.
It, it, it, it's a, if it's likeI have a gen air, right.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
That's
Jim (18:25):
not like too fancy.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
Mm-hmm.
Jim (18:27):
But it's heavy duty.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 5 (18:28):
So
Jim (18:28):
that broiler stays on the pizza stone, uh, that I use,
which I keep at about fourinches from the broiler itself
at like the top rack or justbelow the top rack.
Is, uh, gets to anywhere between580 to 640 degrees.
I find the pizza comes outbetter, the hotter it gets,
Speaker 4 (18:50):
right?
Jim (18:50):
So ideally, you know, if you have one of those fancy, uh,
little food lasers.
You want to see the stone read600 or greater uhhuh so that you
get a real good finish on thebottom crust.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
Mm-hmm.
Jim (19:03):
And you don't have to mess, mess with it or move it around
too much.
Francis (19:07):
So, so, so, 600 degrees, getting the stone to
600 degrees is sufficient tomake great pizza.
Jim (19:12):
Absolutely.
Francis (19:13):
And in your book, you, you discuss how to do that with,
conventional gas ovens, modernand older, and also even with
electric ovens that have shutoffswitches, how you can get the
stone up there, um, to makeYeah, you
Jim (19:23):
really do have to be, again, being that in the home.
Mm-hmm.
Not all.
Cooking conditions areidentical.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Right.
And
Jim (19:31):
it's preposterous when, when, when we write cookbooks,
right.
That we presume that everyonehas the same equipment.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
Right.
Jim (19:38):
So, you know, when, when we send our, our recipes out to
people to test, typically therecipe tester has a different
oven.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
Sure.
Jim (19:46):
And they have to kind of make your recipe work with their
equipment because they'redealing with what?
Other people have.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Right.
Mark (19:53):
You know, and your, and your home oven might be 15 to 25
degrees different than what thatlittle dial at the top says.
I mean, that's, and
Jim (19:59):
that, and that is true too.
Yeah.
You know, that is true too.
That's why it's, you know,
Francis (20:03):
I just wanna recommend to our listeners that having
that instant read thermometervery important.
And, or even just a hangingthermometer in there is great.
I mean, I cooked, uh, I cookedThanksgiving dinner on an oven
that I was like.
That Turkey's never going to getbrown.
It's never going to get brownbecause Yeah, just the oven
wasn't, wasn't getting up towhat the oven said was, didn't
have enough guts.
Well, there's
Jim (20:22):
also the inertia factor as well.
Francis (20:24):
Mm-hmm.
Jim (20:25):
That, the thicker the stone.
Obviously the better.
I mean, some ceramic is betterthan cement.
'cause there are some pizzastones that are out there that
are made from cement, refractorycement, concrete
Speaker 4 (20:37):
uhhuh,
Jim (20:37):
but ceramic like kiln tile or things that are like, like an
inch or thicker
Speaker 4 (20:43):
right.
Jim (20:44):
Are gonna retain more heat and suffer from inertia less and
actually push back more, if youwill.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Uhhuh Uhhuh because of
Jim (20:51):
the heat retention.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Right.
Jim (20:53):
Um.
And, and also the radiation, theinfrared radiation that they
emit,
Speaker 4 (20:58):
right?
Jim (20:59):
The ceramic, uh, shines invisible radiation and
invisible light.
Francis (21:03):
and you recommend an inch and a half piece of stone
if you can find it.
Whereas most of the, well, Imean's out there as, I
Jim (21:08):
don't think you can find an inch you can find.
Kiln tile,
Francis (21:11):
right?
Jim (21:11):
you can find a kiln tile, I think is, uh, if you go online
and you look for a kiln tile,you could even, uh, you might
even be able to find a piecethat's, uh, that will fit your,
your oven in a unique way.
Francis (21:24):
All right, so I have kiln tile, and then I also need
to get that special spatula thatwe make the pizza on.
Transfer to the, the stone list?
Yeah,
Jim (21:31):
the, the, the pizza peel.
uh, but you can actually justtake the dough, open it up with
your hands.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
Mm-hmm.
Jim (21:37):
Pull your oven rack out if it's sturdy enough.
And if you're, and or, or if youhave other myths, you're not
afraid of picking up somethingthat's 600 degrees.
Although the reason I don'trecommend this is'cause it's
dangerous.
You can actually take the dough,put it straight on the stone,
dress the pizza, then put thestone that's Insanely freaking
hot.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Yeah.
Back
Jim (21:55):
in the oven to finish
Francis (21:56):
Uhhuh.
Jim (21:56):
And that works too.
In which case you don't need a,a peel.
Francis (22:00):
Yeah, I'm going for the peel brother.
I would go for the peel.
I'm going for the peel.
I
Jim (22:04):
would caution anyone when, working this way to always be to
use an exercise.
Uh, common sense and, andcaution.
Yeah.
Francis (22:12):
Close toed, closed toed shoes.
For example,
Jim (22:13):
closed toed shoes in case that cheese should, should run
off, or, uh, you know, don't, goto the other room and, uh, sit
down and wa watch the rest ofthe game.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
Yeah.
Jim (22:23):
While the pizzas in the oven.
Otherwise you might be callingthe fire department.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
So.
Alright,
Francis (22:28):
So I've got the peel, I've got great ingredients.
Um, let's talk.
The other thing that I thinkintimidates a lot of people
about pizza at home is, youknow, I, I watch guys toss in
pizza dough and I can't do that.
I mean, it, it, but you reallysimplify the dough and you
simplify how to, how to stretchit.
And, well,
Jim (22:44):
I think that, that you have to stop looking at.
The dough is the enemy and, andrealize that less is more.
Francis (22:51):
Love the dough, brother.
Love the dough.
Love the
Jim (22:53):
dough.
Well, just, all you wanna do isopen the dough.
Francis (22:55):
Uhhuh.
Jim (22:56):
Uhhuh.
You don't wanna ky the dough.
You don't want finger the dough.
You don't wanna molest, or I'msorry, you just used the word,
Mark (23:02):
you just use the word ky that I have never heard before.
Jim (23:05):
KY is a Yiddish word.
Towe.
Francis (23:09):
Oh, see I got that.
Um,
Jim (23:11):
I like that a lot.
Ky you don't wanna plot thedough.
You don't wanna, you don't wantto mess with it.
You don't want to beat it up.
I mean, if you do, it hasnothing to do.
It's incidental to your desireto eat a pizza.
That's just your, your issue,
Speaker 5 (23:26):
your
Jim (23:26):
baggage, you know, and that might have a lot to do with your
early childhood and the way yourparents raised you and.
Got it.
You know?
Got it.
Don't touch that.
Don't touch that.
Don't touch that.
Got it.
You know, so, you know, we allhave within us, and you know,
for whatever weird reason, Idon't think it's a bad thing
When you introduce a, an adultwho's typically doesn't touch
wet, gooey, sticky things unlessthey have a child or, whatever.
(23:46):
Mm-hmm.
Typically, you know, we don'ttouch dough unless we're.
Chefs.
and most of the dough and ournotion of pizza that's out there
is this really bad.
Industrialized, hopeless.
Sad.
you could say the pizza thatlacks self-esteem.
you know, the Pizza Mafia isprobably planning a hit on me.
(24:09):
Now, you mentioned
Francis (24:10):
earlier in your book a woman who came into your to
company and said, uh.
This pizza's all wrong.
And she went on to list all theways that your pizza is
different from like commercial.
You didn't crappy, didn't usethat frozen dough that you can,
you know, it's not floppy.
Jim (24:23):
Well, again, again, again, when we opened up company Uhhuh,
I like to say, because I don'thave an, I don't have a last
name and ends and a vowel,
Speaker 4 (24:31):
right?
Jim (24:32):
Because I don't even look Italian.
I look more, I don't know what Ilook, uh, because, I have no
quote unquote, I don't know,genetic legitimacy.
Francis (24:42):
No genetic BTEs.
Jim (24:43):
How dare you, how dare you make pizza?
I.
I'm joking.
Francis (24:46):
Yeah.
Jim (24:46):
But it kind of seemed that way.
Uh, you know, how dare you notmake the same pizza that I grew
up with?
Right.
You know, in a, in a suburbanshopping mall in Maryland.
Right.
Francis (24:56):
How dare you.
Right.
You don't know what pizza is.
Jim (24:57):
You don't know what pizza is.
There's not enough fuckingcheese on this.
There's not enough.
There's not enough sauce there.
And again, I, I don't wanna makethat pizza.
Francis (25:05):
Right,
Jim (25:05):
right.
That pizza makes people ill.
Francis (25:07):
Well, you know, the fact of the matter is, look, the
world, even if you like thatpizza, the world doesn't need
one more place making it.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And actually
Jim (25:14):
we need to.
To be cooking more things athome.
Anyway,
Francis (25:17):
I am, I'm with you.
And I tell you one of thereasons that we wanted to have
you on the show was I think thatwhile bread is somewhat
intimidating, but pizza is veryintimidating to most people at
home.
And your pizza book I think,really makes it accessible and
it also makes me thank you.
And it also makes me wanna comea company
Jim (25:34):
I thank you.
I mean, the end of the day, thisbook is not a, an elaborate
technical treatise, uhhuh.
It's just a way to disarm theviewer so that they can approach
it.
Francis (25:45):
You know what it is?
It's a way to make greatfricking pizza at home.
And if you didn't think youcould, you can.
The book is, uh, the, I'm gonnaplug you here.
The book is My Pizza.
The Easy No Need Way to MakeSpectacular Pizza At Home by Jim
Lahey, who is founder ofSullivan Street Bakery and
Company in New York City.
But the book is phenomenal andyou can find out more about it
on ourwebsite@restaurantguysradio.com.
(26:05):
Uh, mark
Jim (26:06):
and Francis, thank you so much for having me on your show.
It was terrific
Francis (26:10):
to have you.
Uh, and I
Jim (26:11):
invite you to come to the bakery whenever you want.
Damn,
Francis (26:14):
Skippy, you get a tour.
Damn Skippy know I've never beento your, I I was at the Sullivan
Street Bakery when you firstopened up and then since you
moved to your larger digs.
I haven't been down therethough.
I've continued to eat yourbread.
And you know what, we're gonnacome see you.
Jim (26:26):
Yeah, definitely come by.
We will either bake or breaksome bread together.
Francis (26:31):
Maybe we'll do a little bit of both.
Hey, listen, stick with us.
We'll be right back.
You're listening to TheRestaurant
guys@restaurantguysradio.com.
Mark (27:03):
You know, Jim said something at the beginning of
that show that I, that I justdon't think is true, I just
don't think is right.
He said, you know, bread in inthese in fine restaurants is
kind of the bastard stepchild.
And I, and I really don't thinkthat that's true.
I think that's so many.
People, and I'm one of them, Ikind of get a feel for what my
experience is gonna be.
Absolutely.
When the bread arrives, that's,I, I, you know, I, I'm, I'm
(27:24):
thinking, you know, is thisgonna be a good positive
experience or a bad experience?
And when the, and the bread andwhatever dip slash butter they
serve with it, oil,
Francis (27:34):
butter
Mark (27:34):
dip.
Whatever.
If there's spoil on the butter,eh, I'm not gonna have a great
time.
Okay.
That's kinda, you
Francis (27:40):
know, I, I'll tell you though, I, I don't think he was
referring to the finerestaurants, Uhhuh.
I think what he was saying isthat in so many restaurants the
bread is an afterthought.
And, uh, and I think, but toyou, to your point, you know,
when you go into a restaurantand you see that you get the.
The industrial bread.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and you know what'sfunny?
You know what people don'trealize?
Like, why are these restaurantsso expensive?
(28:01):
You know, that's, those are oneof the things that restaurants
don't charge you for bread.
Right?
So it's gotta fold into the,into the entree, right?
But most of us are spendingthousands of dollars a week on
bread.
Right.
Oh, well, you know, people don'trealize, well, a lot of us
aren't.
We're spending hundreds ofdollars a week, dozens of
dollars a week on bread.
You know what I mean?
So, I mean, when you walk into arestaurant and you think, well,
you know, why are the entreeshere?
(28:22):
35 bucks instead of 25 bucks?
Well, you know, a person can eat$3 worth of bread in our
restaurant.
Mm-hmm.
In a lot of restaurants, youcould eat a loaf and it wouldn't
be$3.
Right.
You know?
But literally a person can eat$3worth of bread.
Nevermind that you have to ordermore bread than, and you can
use, and some of it gets rippedup and made into bread pudding
at the end of the night, it'sjust, breads can be very
(28:44):
expensive if you don't bake ityourself.
And if you do bake it yourself,well then you have a bakery.
So all the restaurants havebaked their own bread, or most
of them.
Also sell their bread to othersbecause you can't amortize the
cost of a bread baker.
Well, unless
Mark (28:55):
you're such a big restaurant.
Right.
it's very difficult to roll thatinto the cost of your
restaurant.
Francis (29:00):
So I agree with you both.
Vic, I'm the ultimate diplomathere.
I agree with what he said.
Really.
I agree with what you say.
Yeah.
So unusual for me.
But you know what?
I agree completely that you sitdown and you have the bread and
you know, it's that firstimpression of the restaurant.
I just, it it's a, it's a bigone.
It's, well, and it shows youvery few restaurants like.
Take the trouble to havefantastic bread and then don't
(29:22):
have great food.
Exactly.
I mean, there are a fewrestaurants that don't really
care about the bread and havegood food anyway.
Mm-hmm.
But there's al, I don't, I can'tthink of a restaurant that I
went to and I was like, wow, thebread is great.
Oh, and the butter is delicious,and the bread and butter's
fantastic.
And, and then the meal, the restof the food is not at least good
or very good.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I mean, I, I can'tthink of it.
So, interesting.
Bread is, uh.
(29:43):
The bread of life.
I don't, I was trying to come upwith something from, no, you
know what, I'm sorry.
Next time I want you to thinkbefore you speak honey, Brad, I
just started the sentence and Ididn't have an end in mind and I
the show didn't it?
Anyway.
Well, I hope you've enjoyed thelast hour of talking to the
restaurant guys or listening tothe restaurant.
Guys.
I know that we certainly have.
You might have been talking tous, yelling at your radio, you
bastard.
I'm Francis Shot.
(30:04):
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurantguys@restaurantguysradio.com.
Good morning, mark.
Hey
Francis (00:42):
Francis, how are you this morning?
Pretty good.
I would like to discuss with ourlisteners, uh, the Manhattan
Cocktail Classic, which, uh, we,uh, just experienced here in New
York City, which we gotta callsomebody and say.
Mark (00:54):
Mother's Day weekend.
Oh my goodness.
Oh, crushing.
Francis (00:57):
We presented at the Manhattan Cocktail Classic,
seminars for the first two yearsof its existence.
And on the Sunday.
And
Mark (01:02):
that's, that's normally when we presented was on the
Sunday
Francis (01:05):
and it's Mother's Day weekend.
Are you kidding?
It's Mother's Day Day.
It's Mother's Day itself.
It was Mother's
Mark (01:09):
Day Day and this year we had the, the hailstorm of, and
for those of you who don't know,you know, Rutgers is in New
Brunswick, and that's where ourrestaurants are.
So Rutgers graduated.
On Mother's Day.
Yeah, it was nuts.
It was 40,000 studentsgraduating Mother's Day Mayhem.
Francis (01:26):
Well that was a really, that was an unfortunate move by
Rutgers that probably took threequarters of a million dollars
out of the Middlesex Countyeconomy.
Mark (01:32):
Oh, it took a lot.
That's for sure.
Certainly, certainly.
Because you would close to that,
Francis (01:35):
you would have, you know, all the restaurants in the
county would be busy or, or inthis part of the county anyway,
would be busy on Mother's Day.
Mm-hmm.
And then again, a week or twolater on, on graduation day.
But you know, if yourrestaurant's 95% busy.
Okay.
I had 105% worth of business,but then I, I lost a, I lost
Giordanother crazy busy Sunday.
Really crazy.
You know,
Mark (01:53):
I'm, I'm gonna take this into it down to a more personal
level because,'cause that's kindof my job and, and, uh, because
I'm the mean one, I revel in
Francis (02:02):
being the mean one.
Mark (02:04):
Be, but you also took a day that's supposed to be all
about mom.
You made it all about the kidagain.
Francis (02:10):
Yeah.
Unless mom was graduating, inwhich case you, unless mom was
graduating, you still combinedher days, you know what I mean?
You
Mark (02:15):
still took one of her days away.
Exactly.
Yeah.
No, yeah.
I didn't, I didn't get, get allthat, but, uh, so you got to
spend some time with theManhattan Cocktail Classic While
I was, was reveling in therevelers.
Francis (02:25):
Well, while you were minding the story, you mean,
while you, while you kept ourbusiness afloat, actually, we,
we, I caught the last hour, justthe last hour of the Manhattan
Cocktail Classic Gala, which isthe mm-hmm.
I, I'm sorry.
That's the, that's the coolestconsumer cocktail party in the
country every year.
Bar none.
It's, it is
Mark (02:41):
the, what a magnificent event it is.
I mean, just every great telianis in, and this
Francis (02:46):
year, by the way, is in the
Mark (02:47):
place.
Francis (02:47):
Well, and well, every great cocktail is in place.
All the cocktail enthusiast arethe place.
The music they had this year wasbetter than ever.
They rent the entire New YorkPublic Library, right?
Yeah.
3000 of your closest friends.
it's black tie or commensuratelyFancy.
You may wear a fedora if youhave a I.
What?
I
Mark (03:02):
have to say my favorite thing about the change to this
year's, what's that?
Is an an app to see where yourfavorite bartenders are?
Yeah.
How cool was that?
There
Francis (03:10):
was a Manhattan Cocktail classic app that you
download your download on yourphone to keep track of all the
events that are going on allaround the city and where you
are and who's pouring what inrelation to you.
That was very cool.
Yeah.
And surprising.
I didn't know that was coming.
So, and the, the music wasfantastic this year.
They had, Vince Giordano and theNighthawks.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, who, Vince Giordano and theNighthawks are a classic big
band.
(03:30):
They play in New York once in awhile, and they're also on
Boardwalk Empire.
They do a lot of the soundtrackfor Boardwalk Empire.
Right.
Absolutely.
And Ted is the dramaturg for,for the slavishly literal, and
correct, you know, scenery andall, and all the stuff that goes
on.
And especially the drinking.
Culture and the music.
It's just, it's just phenomenal.
And the whole thing wasphenomenal in the New York
Public Library and they set up,you know, drink stations all
(03:52):
over.
I was only there for an hour.
Uh, I went to the Campari area,and, uh, I had some fantastic
drinks there.
Campari had a, a bunch of coolstuff, going on there.
That was, that was.
Terrific parties and it was, itwas just great.
one of the more interestingthings that we have in addition
to all the seminars we went tois on the last day, there is
(04:13):
basically a spirits tasting.
I mean hundreds of spirits thatmay not be distributed in New
York, New Jersey.
Yeah.
It's not really
Mark (04:20):
a spirit sta it's, it's different than a, than your
average spirits tasting anindependent.
It's artisanal, exactly.
Yeah.
The
Francis (04:25):
independent stuff.
Mm-hmm.
Oh wow.
I found some really cool stuff.
And so with your permission, Iwanna talk about a few things,
but with your permission, mark,I grabbed a couple of bottles of
things that were poured therethat aren't yet available here.
I think they're just becomingavailable here.
Really unusual things, and Iwanna see if we can do a blind
tasting.
You have my permission.
(04:45):
Alright, hold on a second.
So talk to the people while Imake a drink.
Mark (04:47):
All right.
So Francis is, is literallygetting up now and, and getting
ready to make a drink.
He's got clear liquids in, clearbottles, so I can't tell what
they are.
So I know that was a clearliquid.
Yeah.
Francis is stir, by the way, incase you're wondering.
Francis is stirring and thebartender kind, not the
(05:08):
discontented kind.
so Francis really is gonna, hasbrought me back some stuff that
he wants me to taste blind andthat always scares me a little
bit.
'cause whenever you tastesomething blind, you always have
the opportunity to look really,really stupid.
Francis (05:24):
I don't know how you're gonna react to this because I
didn't get the opportunity totaste it blind, but I thought it
was fetching.
We'll see if you, if you agree
Mark (05:31):
fetching.
Francis (05:32):
I was like, what is that?
Can I tell you something?
Yeah.
There's
Mark (05:34):
really nothing that I drink that I consider fetching.
Well, you haven't had this yet.
Now, have you not?
Hoo nor Gator.
You haven't had this Gatoradenor the finest red wine in all
the land.
Francis (05:48):
Okay, now this is the, is the less interesting one to
me because it's, it's a vodkaand I find vodka.
I think vodkas are great, but asa category.
I find it a little lessinteresting.
So what's
Mark (05:57):
really cool about having the show on a podcast and not
broadcast, Terrely right here isFrancis and I terrestrially and
he hasn't even had a drink yet.
Terres.
Man, not saying that again.
Uh, is that, uh, Francis and Ican drink while we're on the
show.
How cool is that?
Yeah.
You're not allowed to haveliquor in commercial radio
station.
Not allowed.
In a radio station.
Yeah.
Francis (06:16):
FCC,
Mark (06:17):
that's, that's so you don't get drunk.
Oh, yeah.
And say stupid stuff.
Well, Francis, I don't mind ifwe get drunk.
Exactly.
You don't
Francis (06:23):
mind either.
Our listeners, Can you tell, ordo you have an idea what what
the base of that vodka might be?
What it's from.
Yeah.
What is distilled to make thatvodka?
Hmm.
Mark (06:34):
Well, one thing I will tell you is the vodka's dense.
I get a lot of viscosity fromit.
Um, but the base of that vodka,I have no idea.
can I guess, uh, make one guessand do me a favor, try it warm
first.
Okay.
Because it's actually, Francishas made me a martini, so I'm
gonna go back to trying it,trying it at room temperature.
(06:55):
I don't, I don't know.
It's got a little kind ofcarness
Francis (06:59):
to it.
Little bit of a carness to it.
Yeah.
Um, is there a, do, do you findthe nose kind of different at
all?
Very.
and on the pal I find it.
Well, what do you find on thepalette?
Mark (07:09):
Like I said, it's, it's fairly viscous mm-hmm.
Francis (07:11):
For vodka.
And, and even in its, in it'swarm state, I find it fairly
viscous as well.
Mm-hmm.
I'm gonna pour you a gin madefrom the same base material,
which is, so they, so they madea
Mark (07:21):
vodka and then they made a gin from the vodka.
That's very
Francis (07:24):
interesting.
So, hold on.
Mark (07:26):
It always has to taste first in case you're wondering.
Francis (07:28):
I that's delicious.
Mark (07:29):
I wanna make sure it's right
Francis (07:30):
in there.
I think you can really see thatthat's a different gin.
It smells great, doesn't it?
Juniper and, yeah.
Yeah.
But there's something elsethere, and you're not gonna be
able to get what it is, but it'srounder and sweeter.
It's unbelievable.
Mark (07:43):
It's plums.
Francis (07:44):
No, here and here.
You said round and sweet.
Here.
Try.
I was talking about you.
Sorry.
Uh, the gin is what I'm reallyin love with and that's, Ooh,
isn't that crazy?
Boy, the gin's great.
Doesn't it almost taste likeit's already made into a martini
or something?
It's just straight.
I didn't even Is great.
(08:04):
Isn't that fantastic?
The gin is great.
Bar Hill, gin of Vermont.
Spirit from they syrup?
Nope, from Caledonia Spirits.
Good.
It's made from honey.
Ah, that's cool.
They're both made from rawhoney.
That's cool.
And this has Juni and they havejuniper in the Gin.
The gin.
I think it's f Magnifi.
Fantastic, isn't it?
The
Mark (08:23):
gin is magnificent.
I I, the vodka didn't, didn'tmake me say wow.
But the gin is magnificentbecause you can
Francis (08:29):
almost get the honey there, but it's almost ethereal.
You don't know what it is.
Mark (08:32):
That's really good.
Francis (08:34):
That's me pausing to sip, by the way.
It's a little early in the day,but it's already made.
I don't want it to go to waste.
Yeah.
Okay, so we're gonna put thisall up on the website under
Restaurant Guys Radio.
Mark (08:43):
I get a little bit of mead in here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I get a little bit of mead,more, more than just the honey.
I, I taste, I taste mead.
Francis (08:49):
and with the, with the gin.
I think the juniper goes so wellwith that.
That honey, it's amazing.
Mark (08:55):
definitely it is very, very fragrant gin.
Yeah.
you know, sometimes that almostgets a, a bitter note to it.
Yep.
When the, when the juniper'sall, all fired up in there.
Yeah.
And this doesn't have that atall.
Francis (09:07):
It's so clean.
It's freaking great.
Mark (09:09):
So taking Giordanother sip.
By the way, Francis, say theshow wondering what Francis is
doing.
If you get a little pause therewhere there's no one talking,
that's Francis sipping on hismartini.
Francis (09:20):
I was just about to say, the show would go much
slower if we had martinis duringthe show every time just to
allow for a sipping time anyway.
I would say that my mostexciting find for the Manhattan
Cocktail Classic 2012 is, um,Caledonia Spirits Bar Hill Gin
from.
Honey.
I mean, yeah, that was reallycool.
And it's their own bees.
I mean, it's all New York Statehoney for their own bees.
(09:43):
Isn't that crazy?
You mean Vermont?
Vermont?
I'm here to what, say Vermontfor you?
It's all north.
That's my job.
It's north
Mark (09:48):
of us.
It's all north of us.
Someplace cold.
Almost Canada.
That's Canada light.
Francis (09:53):
and if you can go to Manhattan Cocktail Classic next
year.
By all means go.
Yeah.
Mark (09:57):
It's, it's, it is a great, great program.
I'm gonna, if you want, ask themnot to do it on Mother's Day.
I was gonna say, and if youwanna
Francis (10:02):
write them a letter telling them not to do it on, on
Mother's Day, that'd be reallyterrific.
Hey, listen, stick with us.
We're gonna learn how to makepizza at home.
No kidding.
Really not.
The crappy pizza at home in the,in the Toast oven.
And we're gonna make real pizzaat home, uh, with one of the, I
dunno, most important guys.
Having to do with Dough inAmerica.
Jim Leahy, uh, he owned SullivanStreet Bakery.
He invented the no need methodof making bread that's taken
(10:25):
over the world.
He's got a restaurant calledCompany in in Manhattan and his
new book is My Pizza.
The Easy No Need Way to MakeSpectacular Pizza at Home.
And we'll be talking with him injust a moment.
You're listening to theRestaurant
guys@restaurantguysradio.com.
And our guest today is JimLahey.
Jim owns Sullivan Street Bakeryin New York City, one of our
favorite bakeries, one of thebest bakeries in New York City,
(10:46):
and that makes it one of thebest bakeries in the country.
He also owns company Restaurant.
He's method of no need.
Dough for bread, revolutionizedbread baking around the world.
And his new book is called MyPizza.
The Easy No Need Way to MakeSpectacular Pizza at Home.
Hey Jim, welcome to the show.
Jim (11:02):
Oh, thank you, mark.
Thank you, Francis.
Francis (11:04):
Your bread place is pretty cool.
You opened in 94 on SullivanStreet.
Jim (11:10):
Yes.
Uh, I opened in 94.
and it was a very, um, it was avery, let's say, uh, formative,
formative experience for me.
Francis (11:18):
Well, your bread instantly became a hit around
New York.
You were kind of the bread kingof, of, uh, of lower Manhattan.
And were, I'm sorry.
Thanks, man.
You, but it's true.
I mean, everybody, what is itcalled when you become
something, but you're still it?
What is that tense?
I don't know what that is.
I don't, I don't know.
But you, I don't know
Jim (11:36):
what I, I'm just, I'm, I'm just a man.
Who makes bread?
Francis (11:42):
Well, listen, man, uh, I cook, I
Jim (11:44):
cook things.
Francis (11:44):
Your, your bread immediately became the darling
of, downtown.
And, uh, your bread not only wasjust about in your store, but
you began to supply a lot ofreally cool restaurants, which
you still do.
And, uh, you moved to biggerdigs where you supply a lot of
folks.
Now let's talk about someinnovations that you came up
with.
I think obviously the, uh, thebread shot heard around the
world was when Mark Bitmancovered your No need method of
(12:08):
of making bread dough.
That was a really importantmoment for you, wasn't it?
Jim (12:13):
Yes, that was, uh, you know, without realizing it.
And certainly if I, I knew nowwhat I knew then, and I was
maybe more of a.
A normal American, uh,capitalist kind of guy.
I would've capitalized on allthat.
I just was kind of like tsunamiand overwhelmed, um, by the
(12:34):
response and kind of, you know,kind of shocked,
Francis (12:38):
it changed the way people will make bread
professionally as well as athome.
I mean, it was reallyrevolutionary.
Can you, you wanna tell ourlisteners a little bit about
how, well go back
Jim (12:45):
to this, go back to this notion of practice and go back
to this notion of standard.
And if, if we're gonna change,if I'm gonna change or affect
change in a culture, and I wouldlove in my lifetime to know that
I've changed the way we look atbread, the way we eat bread, the
way that bread is made, uh, andalso the standards that exist
(13:06):
for bread.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
Mm-hmm.
Jim (13:08):
The only way we can make that happen is not like, it's
not the trickle down theory, butit's the trickle up theory.
It's gotta stored in the home.
Uh
Speaker 4 (13:17):
huh.
Jim (13:18):
It's gotta, we, we have to unlock and unleash and, and help
people get over their, theirinhibitions or fears or whatever
issues they have with like doughor wet, gooey, sticky things as
it relates to food.
And, and make it almost, youknow, kind of idiotically simple
(13:38):
or idiotically, seeminglyidiotically.
How did that happen?
you know, the objective of theno need method in, in trying to
get it out there was to giveeveryone, as many people as I
could.
The same aha moment, the sameexperience, the same catharsis
that I had the very first timethat I successfully made bread
(13:59):
in my home when I was likeliving out in Long Island, out
in au, or when I was living in agarage in Williamsburg.
And, baking outta my home ovenfor street markets.
Francis (14:10):
let's talk about your book.
Uh, my Pizza, the easy, no needway to make spectacular pizza at
home.
Now you have the no need methodof bread, which you invented and
you've gone on from your bakeryto own company, which is a, a
pizzeria restaurant, a Prestaurant.
No need pizza dough.
We really don't need to need ourpizza dough.
Jim (14:28):
Would you consider pizza dough or dough to be even the
same family of bread?
Francis (14:33):
I do.
Jim (14:33):
Okay.
Therefore, why?
Why do we need, why do, why dowe think.
Why do we think that way?
Francis (14:39):
I don't know.
Jim Lehey has taught us that weare, we've thought wrong.
'cause evidently we don't needto.
Yeah.
I mean, I
Jim (14:43):
remember once upon a time, the reason why bagels and bread
sucks, uh, and pizza sucks inFlorida is because you need New
York water.
Have you ever heard of anythingso ludicrous?
Francis (14:54):
Yeah, I, I, I remember that, Rumor or what is that a
myth?
I remember that Well.
It's like,
Jim (14:58):
it became like a, you know, it saved more of a, when we say
things like this, it's more of asymptom of what we don't know.
Right?
Francis (15:05):
You made you, you didn't know, so you had to make
something up to make it makesense.
Jim (15:08):
Yeah.
You gotta have the water fromNew York, from Brooklyn.
It's real.
Brooklyn Water.
These bagels are made withBrooklyn Water here.
So, you know, it's all, it's allit's there.
Yeah.
We import our water, uh, to makeour bagels and our pizza.
Yeah.
Jim, thoughts?
Jim,
Francis (15:22):
I I just wanna interrupt you to say, I like
having you on the show becauseit's a whole cast of characters
we get on the other side overthere.
That's great.
You were two different guysthere.
That was great.
I'm like, no, I'm like 20.
Oh really?
You should see someone aboutthat, but I know, but no, so
the, no, the no need pizza.
Your pizzas look fantastic.
And what's really exciting aboutthis is I think.
Most people have an idea thatpizza, really, you need a
(15:45):
specialized oven, you need aMario Bati oven with the fire in
there, and it takes a day.
Mario?
Mario
Jim (15:50):
just wants to sell, sell more, uh, goods and, uh, I get
it, man.
There's, and he, he will.
There's, by the way,
Francis (15:57):
by the way, they're also pretty cool ovens.
Yeah.
But what's cool about your bookis you teach people how to make,
and I don't think people aregonna believe it until they
actually try it.
Yeah.
Um, make pizza on a stone intheir oven at home, really
possible to be great that way.
Jim (16:10):
Yeah.
And you can make pizza at home.
That is.
Better than anything you couldbuy at your local pizza joint
pizzeria, artisan artisanal,so-called artisanal Neapolitan,
uh, caputo double zero zero bx.
Francis (16:24):
Alright, I, I just wanna put out there that this is
coming from Jim Lehe, whobasically invented the known
need, bread baking, whichrevolutionized bread baking
around the world.
You know, first written about byMark Bitman.
I
Jim (16:36):
just wanna say one thing.
You know, my, my bread is beingtranslated into Italian.
Uh,
Francis (16:41):
really?
Jim (16:41):
Yes.
That's awesome.
That's a huge honor to jump thepond.
Francis (16:44):
My bread is the first book and for an American book on
bread be translated into Italianis quite, um, that's quite a
feat.
I know.
Jim (16:50):
I'm, I'm looking forward to the Italian book tour.
That's,
Francis (16:54):
that sounds great.
Alright, so, but my pizza,
Jim (16:57):
at home, you can make, using my method, you can make
spectacular pizza at home.
And the book is really trying toopen up the language for what
can go on.
A dough, if the dough itselfwhen you open it is the canvas.
And there, there are a myriad ofpossibilities of some requiring
(17:19):
that are vegan.
I, I tried to do a, a whole listof, uh, a whole group of pizzas
that are, you know, veganfriendly.
Unfortunately, we don't have a,a gluten-free pizza.
But, uh, who knows?
Who knows?
It's,
Francis (17:31):
it's called a bowl of vegetables.
Yeah, it's called a bowl of,yeah, yeah,
Jim (17:34):
exactly that.
There's a solution.
There you go.
A bowl of vegetables.
That's the gluten-free diet.
Francis (17:38):
So, let's talk about, let's, let's debunk some of the
myths that most people have orsome of the preconceptions that
most people have about pizza.
I need oven that gets up to athousand degrees to cook pizza.
Okay.
Tell us what, how,
Jim (17:51):
well, newer ovens often have like shutoff temperature
limits, right?
And sometimes electrical ovensagain, have like a thermo, a
thermal control called a highlimit switch.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Mm-hmm.
Jim (18:03):
Which will turn the oven off if it gets, if the internal,
even the broiler goes over 600.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
Right.
Jim (18:08):
Uh, you can bypass that sometimes by keeping the door
open a jar and in some cases.
With older ovens that, that likehave broilers in the top of the
oven, not the bottom.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Right.
Jim (18:18):
Uh, or new ovens that have broilers in the top.
It, it, it, it's a, if it's likeI have a gen air, right.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
That's
Jim (18:25):
not like too fancy.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
Mm-hmm.
Jim (18:27):
But it's heavy duty.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 5 (18:28):
So
Jim (18:28):
that broiler stays on the pizza stone, uh, that I use,
which I keep at about fourinches from the broiler itself
at like the top rack or justbelow the top rack.
Is, uh, gets to anywhere between580 to 640 degrees.
I find the pizza comes outbetter, the hotter it gets,
Speaker 4 (18:50):
right?
Jim (18:50):
So ideally, you know, if you have one of those fancy, uh,
little food lasers.
You want to see the stone read600 or greater uhhuh so that you
get a real good finish on thebottom crust.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
Mm-hmm.
Jim (19:03):
And you don't have to mess, mess with it or move it around
too much.
Francis (19:07):
So, so, so, 600 degrees, getting the stone to
600 degrees is sufficient tomake great pizza.
Jim (19:12):
Absolutely.
Francis (19:13):
And in your book, you, you discuss how to do that with,
conventional gas ovens, modernand older, and also even with
electric ovens that have shutoffswitches, how you can get the
stone up there, um, to makeYeah, you
Jim (19:23):
really do have to be, again, being that in the home.
Mm-hmm.
Not all.
Cooking conditions areidentical.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Right.
And
Jim (19:31):
it's preposterous when, when, when we write cookbooks,
right.
That we presume that everyonehas the same equipment.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
Right.
Jim (19:38):
So, you know, when, when we send our, our recipes out to
people to test, typically therecipe tester has a different
oven.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
Sure.
Jim (19:46):
And they have to kind of make your recipe work with their
equipment because they'redealing with what?
Other people have.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Right.
Mark (19:53):
You know, and your, and your home oven might be 15 to 25
degrees different than what thatlittle dial at the top says.
I mean, that's, and
Jim (19:59):
that, and that is true too.
Yeah.
You know, that is true too.
That's why it's, you know,
Francis (20:03):
I just wanna recommend to our listeners that having
that instant read thermometervery important.
And, or even just a hangingthermometer in there is great.
I mean, I cooked, uh, I cookedThanksgiving dinner on an oven
that I was like.
That Turkey's never going to getbrown.
It's never going to get brownbecause Yeah, just the oven
wasn't, wasn't getting up towhat the oven said was, didn't
have enough guts.
Well, there's
Jim (20:22):
also the inertia factor as well.
Francis (20:24):
Mm-hmm.
Jim (20:25):
That, the thicker the stone.
Obviously the better.
I mean, some ceramic is betterthan cement.
'cause there are some pizzastones that are out there that
are made from cement, refractorycement, concrete
Speaker 4 (20:37):
uhhuh,
Jim (20:37):
but ceramic like kiln tile or things that are like, like an
inch or thicker
Speaker 4 (20:43):
right.
Jim (20:44):
Are gonna retain more heat and suffer from inertia less and
actually push back more, if youwill.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Uhhuh Uhhuh because of
Jim (20:51):
the heat retention.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Right.
Jim (20:53):
Um.
And, and also the radiation, theinfrared radiation that they
emit,
Speaker 4 (20:58):
right?
Jim (20:59):
The ceramic, uh, shines invisible radiation and
invisible light.
Francis (21:03):
and you recommend an inch and a half piece of stone
if you can find it.
Whereas most of the, well, Imean's out there as, I
Jim (21:08):
don't think you can find an inch you can find.
Kiln tile,
Francis (21:11):
right?
Jim (21:11):
you can find a kiln tile, I think is, uh, if you go online
and you look for a kiln tile,you could even, uh, you might
even be able to find a piecethat's, uh, that will fit your,
your oven in a unique way.
Francis (21:24):
All right, so I have kiln tile, and then I also need
to get that special spatula thatwe make the pizza on.
Transfer to the, the stone list?
Yeah,
Jim (21:31):
the, the, the pizza peel.
uh, but you can actually justtake the dough, open it up with
your hands.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
Mm-hmm.
Jim (21:37):
Pull your oven rack out if it's sturdy enough.
And if you're, and or, or if youhave other myths, you're not
afraid of picking up somethingthat's 600 degrees.
Although the reason I don'trecommend this is'cause it's
dangerous.
You can actually take the dough,put it straight on the stone,
dress the pizza, then put thestone that's Insanely freaking
hot.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Yeah.
Back
Jim (21:55):
in the oven to finish
Francis (21:56):
Uhhuh.
Jim (21:56):
And that works too.
In which case you don't need a,a peel.
Francis (22:00):
Yeah, I'm going for the peel brother.
I would go for the peel.
I'm going for the peel.
I
Jim (22:04):
would caution anyone when, working this way to always be to
use an exercise.
Uh, common sense and, andcaution.
Yeah.
Francis (22:12):
Close toed, closed toed shoes.
For example,
Jim (22:13):
closed toed shoes in case that cheese should, should run
off, or, uh, you know, don't, goto the other room and, uh, sit
down and wa watch the rest ofthe game.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
Yeah.
Jim (22:23):
While the pizzas in the oven.
Otherwise you might be callingthe fire department.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
So.
Alright,
Francis (22:28):
So I've got the peel, I've got great ingredients.
Um, let's talk.
The other thing that I thinkintimidates a lot of people
about pizza at home is, youknow, I, I watch guys toss in
pizza dough and I can't do that.
I mean, it, it, but you reallysimplify the dough and you
simplify how to, how to stretchit.
And, well,
Jim (22:44):
I think that, that you have to stop looking at.
The dough is the enemy and, andrealize that less is more.
Francis (22:51):
Love the dough, brother.
Love the dough.
Love the
Jim (22:53):
dough.
Well, just, all you wanna do isopen the dough.
Francis (22:55):
Uhhuh.
Jim (22:56):
Uhhuh.
You don't wanna ky the dough.
You don't want finger the dough.
You don't wanna molest, or I'msorry, you just used the word,
Mark (23:02):
you just use the word ky that I have never heard before.
Jim (23:05):
KY is a Yiddish word.
Towe.
Francis (23:09):
Oh, see I got that.
Um,
Jim (23:11):
I like that a lot.
Ky you don't wanna plot thedough.
You don't wanna, you don't wantto mess with it.
You don't want to beat it up.
I mean, if you do, it hasnothing to do.
It's incidental to your desireto eat a pizza.
That's just your, your issue,
Speaker 5 (23:26):
your
Jim (23:26):
baggage, you know, and that might have a lot to do with your
early childhood and the way yourparents raised you and.
Got it.
You know?
Got it.
Don't touch that.
Don't touch that.
Don't touch that.
Got it.
You know, so, you know, we allhave within us, and you know,
for whatever weird reason, Idon't think it's a bad thing
When you introduce a, an adultwho's typically doesn't touch
wet, gooey, sticky things unlessthey have a child or, whatever.
(23:46):
Mm-hmm.
Typically, you know, we don'ttouch dough unless we're.
Chefs.
and most of the dough and ournotion of pizza that's out there
is this really bad.
Industrialized, hopeless.
Sad.
you could say the pizza thatlacks self-esteem.
you know, the Pizza Mafia isprobably planning a hit on me.
(24:09):
Now, you mentioned
Francis (24:10):
earlier in your book a woman who came into your to
company and said, uh.
This pizza's all wrong.
And she went on to list all theways that your pizza is
different from like commercial.
You didn't crappy, didn't usethat frozen dough that you can,
you know, it's not floppy.
Jim (24:23):
Well, again, again, again, when we opened up company Uhhuh,
I like to say, because I don'thave an, I don't have a last
name and ends and a vowel,
Speaker 4 (24:31):
right?
Jim (24:32):
Because I don't even look Italian.
I look more, I don't know what Ilook, uh, because, I have no
quote unquote, I don't know,genetic legitimacy.
Francis (24:42):
No genetic BTEs.
Jim (24:43):
How dare you, how dare you make pizza?
I.
I'm joking.
Francis (24:46):
Yeah.
Jim (24:46):
But it kind of seemed that way.
Uh, you know, how dare you notmake the same pizza that I grew
up with?
Right.
You know, in a, in a suburbanshopping mall in Maryland.
Right.
Francis (24:56):
How dare you.
Right.
You don't know what pizza is.
Jim (24:57):
You don't know what pizza is.
There's not enough fuckingcheese on this.
There's not enough.
There's not enough sauce there.
And again, I, I don't wanna makethat pizza.
Francis (25:05):
Right,
Jim (25:05):
right.
That pizza makes people ill.
Francis (25:07):
Well, you know, the fact of the matter is, look, the
world, even if you like thatpizza, the world doesn't need
one more place making it.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And actually
Jim (25:14):
we need to.
To be cooking more things athome.
Anyway,
Francis (25:17):
I am, I'm with you.
And I tell you one of thereasons that we wanted to have
you on the show was I think thatwhile bread is somewhat
intimidating, but pizza is veryintimidating to most people at
home.
And your pizza book I think,really makes it accessible and
it also makes me thank you.
And it also makes me wanna comea company
Jim (25:34):
I thank you.
I mean, the end of the day, thisbook is not a, an elaborate
technical treatise, uhhuh.
It's just a way to disarm theviewer so that they can approach
it.
Francis (25:45):
You know what it is?
It's a way to make greatfricking pizza at home.
And if you didn't think youcould, you can.
The book is, uh, the, I'm gonnaplug you here.
The book is My Pizza.
The Easy No Need Way to MakeSpectacular Pizza At Home by Jim
Lahey, who is founder ofSullivan Street Bakery and
Company in New York City.
But the book is phenomenal andyou can find out more about it
on ourwebsite@restaurantguysradio.com.
(26:05):
Uh, mark
Jim (26:06):
and Francis, thank you so much for having me on your show.
It was terrific
Francis (26:10):
to have you.
Uh, and I
Jim (26:11):
invite you to come to the bakery whenever you want.
Damn,
Francis (26:14):
Skippy, you get a tour.
Damn Skippy know I've never beento your, I I was at the Sullivan
Street Bakery when you firstopened up and then since you
moved to your larger digs.
I haven't been down therethough.
I've continued to eat yourbread.
And you know what, we're gonnacome see you.
Jim (26:26):
Yeah, definitely come by.
We will either bake or breaksome bread together.
Francis (26:31):
Maybe we'll do a little bit of both.
Hey, listen, stick with us.
We'll be right back.
You're listening to TheRestaurant
guys@restaurantguysradio.com.
Mark (27:03):
You know, Jim said something at the beginning of
that show that I, that I justdon't think is true, I just
don't think is right.
He said, you know, bread in inthese in fine restaurants is
kind of the bastard stepchild.
And I, and I really don't thinkthat that's true.
I think that's so many.
People, and I'm one of them, Ikind of get a feel for what my
experience is gonna be.
Absolutely.
When the bread arrives, that's,I, I, you know, I, I'm, I'm
(27:24):
thinking, you know, is thisgonna be a good positive
experience or a bad experience?
And when the, and the bread andwhatever dip slash butter they
serve with it, oil,
Francis (27:34):
butter
Mark (27:34):
dip.
Whatever.
If there's spoil on the butter,eh, I'm not gonna have a great
time.
Okay.
That's kinda, you
Francis (27:40):
know, I, I'll tell you though, I, I don't think he was
referring to the finerestaurants, Uhhuh.
I think what he was saying isthat in so many restaurants the
bread is an afterthought.
And, uh, and I think, but toyou, to your point, you know,
when you go into a restaurantand you see that you get the.
The industrial bread.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and you know what'sfunny?
You know what people don'trealize?
Like, why are these restaurantsso expensive?
(28:01):
You know, that's, those are oneof the things that restaurants
don't charge you for bread.
Right?
So it's gotta fold into the,into the entree, right?
But most of us are spendingthousands of dollars a week on
bread.
Right.
Oh, well, you know, people don'trealize, well, a lot of us
aren't.
We're spending hundreds ofdollars a week, dozens of
dollars a week on bread.
You know what I mean?
So, I mean, when you walk into arestaurant and you think, well,
you know, why are the entreeshere?
(28:22):
35 bucks instead of 25 bucks?
Well, you know, a person can eat$3 worth of bread in our
restaurant.
Mm-hmm.
In a lot of restaurants, youcould eat a loaf and it wouldn't
be$3.
Right.
You know?
But literally a person can eat$3worth of bread.
Nevermind that you have to ordermore bread than, and you can
use, and some of it gets rippedup and made into bread pudding
at the end of the night, it'sjust, breads can be very
(28:44):
expensive if you don't bake ityourself.
And if you do bake it yourself,well then you have a bakery.
So all the restaurants havebaked their own bread, or most
of them.
Also sell their bread to othersbecause you can't amortize the
cost of a bread baker.
Well, unless
Mark (28:55):
you're such a big restaurant.
Right.
it's very difficult to roll thatinto the cost of your
restaurant.
Francis (29:00):
So I agree with you both.
Vic, I'm the ultimate diplomathere.
I agree with what he said.
Really.
I agree with what you say.
Yeah.
So unusual for me.
But you know what?
I agree completely that you sitdown and you have the bread and
you know, it's that firstimpression of the restaurant.
I just, it it's a, it's a bigone.
It's, well, and it shows youvery few restaurants like.
Take the trouble to havefantastic bread and then don't
(29:22):
have great food.
Exactly.
I mean, there are a fewrestaurants that don't really
care about the bread and havegood food anyway.
Mm-hmm.
But there's al, I don't, I can'tthink of a restaurant that I
went to and I was like, wow, thebread is great.
Oh, and the butter is delicious,and the bread and butter's
fantastic.
And, and then the meal, the restof the food is not at least good
or very good.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I mean, I, I can'tthink of it.
So, interesting.
Bread is, uh.
(29:43):
The bread of life.
I don't, I was trying to come upwith something from, no, you
know what, I'm sorry.
Next time I want you to thinkbefore you speak honey, Brad, I
just started the sentence and Ididn't have an end in mind and I
the show didn't it?
Anyway.
Well, I hope you've enjoyed thelast hour of talking to the
restaurant guys or listening tothe restaurant.
Guys.
I know that we certainly have.
You might have been talking tous, yelling at your radio, you
bastard.
I'm Francis Shot.
(30:04):
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurantguys@restaurantguysradio.com.
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