Martini Expo I 2025

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
the-restaurant-guys_1_09- (00:11):
Hello everybody and welcome.
You are listening to theRestaurant guys.
I'm Mark Pascal and he's FrancisShot.
Together, we own Stage Left andKale Lombardi restaurants in New
Brunswick, New Jersey.
We're here to bring you theinside track on food, wine, and
the finer things in life.
Well, hello, mark.
Hey Francis.
How are you?
I'm great.
I'm excited for a couple ofreasons.
This was great shows we're aboutto have, we are starting a

(00:33):
series of great shows.
These were all shows that werecorded at the Martini Expo,
which was put together by RobertSimonson and Mary Kate Mary of
the mix in Industry City inBrooklyn.
The most, the most importantpeople in the cocktail world
we're in one place and we talkedto all of them in one.
While drinking martinis, whichis why it was one of our best
shows, three of our best showsreally ever.

(00:54):
Yeah.
So today we're gonna air foryou, our interviews with
Salvatore Calabrese

the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23 (00:58):
one of the most important cocktail
makers in the world.
He is the invent of the DukeMartini and the breakfast
martini.
Uh, the breakfast martini.
Yep.

We're gonna talk to Liam Davy from
London, also from Hawks, moreHawks, more restaurant, and
Charlotte Voisey, who is thenew, head honcho at, tales of
the Cocktail in New Orleans.
It was nice to see her.
At an event that's not herresponsibility.
It was great.
I think she had a good time notbeing responsible as well.
Exactly.
So we're gonna start off talkingto Robert Simonson about the

(01:29):
martini expo that he helped tocreate and will be a little bit
irresponsible.
Hmm.

And today we have with us to launch
our special series, our threepart series of all the amazing
interviews we did at the MartiniExpo in Industry City in
Brooklyn.
Robert Simonson is himself, ishere to join us.
Robert, welcome to the show.
What an amazing event.
I am so excited for people tosee the next three shows so they
could see what an amazing yeah.

(01:54):
Event that you had.
It was really cool, Robert.

Robert Simonson (01:58):
Oh, thank you very much.
And, and thank you guys forbeing there.
You guys were the officialpodcasters and you were there
for hours on end, interviewingall the, uh, greatest names and
cocktails.

Dude, it was amazing.
You had people from all over theworld.
We couldn't, yeah, we couldn'tinterview all the greatest names
in cocktails.
We didn't have, we only had fourhours.
there was a, the place, I mean,the place was just filled.
With tremendous cocktails fromall around the world.
And the restaurant guys werethere and every time the door,
like we'd finish a short briefinterview with somebody really
brilliant, the door would openand then somebody else was
standing outside the door.

Yeah.

Francis (02:30):
is, this is gonna be a three part series we're doing
today.
Thursday is also gonna be, fromthe Martini Expo.
And then Saturday we have a showthat, uh, is gonna be partially
behind a paywall.
And if you wanna become a memberof the restaurant, guys, this is
as good a time as any becauseyou'll miss the hijinks of Dale
Degra crashing into therestaurant guy booth.
Uh, and you guys at the, at theend and I'll, I'll be honest

(02:51):
with you, Robert, at the end ofthe Martini Expo, everybody's a
little more lubricated than theywere at the beginning.

Yeah, that was my impression.
You know, we didn't actuallyget, uh, into your booth.
Until the very end, I think itwas like seven, between seven 30
and eight or

Yeah.

David Wonders was already sitting with you.
And I'm not sure why we were letin, but we were let in.
It was me and Mary Kate, andalso Lisa Laird.
we sat there and we, we, wechimed in from time to

Well, frankly, Robert there was

you instructed, them to shut the door and not
let anybody

close that door is what I said.
Robert, there was no lock onthat door.
I was surprised it didn't happensooner.
Okay.
With all the martinis flowingand all the people who were
there.
Little surprised we didn't getGet gate crashed prior to the.

Yeah, no, I, I told you I was gonna do my Bob
Hope routine and I did, youknow, crashing the Johnny Carson
show.
I.

the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23- (03:45):
So I want to, um.
I wanna keep this brief becausethe show you put on is the
center of our next three days ofpodcasts.
what's your takeaway?
after this very successfulevent?
Um, it seemed to me differentthan any other event that's been
done.
Um, what's your, what's your,what's your read on what

(04:06):
everyone's gonna be hearing overthe course of the next couple of
episodes?

Well, I'm happy to say that I think, uh, we
actually accomplished what weset out to do.
Um, we got this idea for thisscheme about six months ago, and
we started putting it togetherabout four months ago with the
help of, uh, an event plannercalled Claire Burton Lang, who
has a lot of experience in, uh,staging booze shows.

(04:30):
And, uh, we basically wanted todo, three things.
Well, first of all, it goeswithout saying we wanted to
honor the martini and theculture of the Martini, and we
thought it deserved its ownconvention, but we also wanted
to gather together all of our OGfriends from the cocktail
revival in one room, thatincludes you guys.
we got people like Dale DeGraffand Julie Reiner, and Salvatore

(04:54):
Calabrese and all thesewonderful people, and the great
distillers too, just to kind oflike, you know.
get the gang back together andhave ano have another party like
in the old days.
second thing we wanted to do iswe wanted to stage a cocktail
convention the way they used tobe 15 years ago when they were
smaller in scale, moreidiosyncratic, more human, more

(05:15):
warm like that.
And the third thing that wewanted to do is just bring more
attention to our wonderfulsubstack that Mary Kate and I
created The Mix.

Yeah, Mary Kate can't be with us.
She was hopefully gonna be withus but Mary Kate is your partner
both at The Mix, which iswonderful and we share a lot of.
And, putting on the MartiniExpo.
So kudos to you guys on that.

Yeah, Mary Kate and I, uh, founded The Mix and,
uh, we came up with the idea forthe martini Expo together, and
we were both there on the floor.
You saw us

the-restaurant-guys_1_0 (05:45):
Mm-hmm.

around like chickens with our heads

you were, uh, you were, you were
controlled, Inanity.
Yeah, exactly.
Uh, so my, my question that hasto be asked to you is.
Why the martini?
Why was the martini so importantthat it was the focus of this
great event that brought allthese bartenders together from
around the world for one drink,one cocktail.
That's amazing.

Well, if you're gonna choose one drink to build
a convention around, it's gottabe the martini.
It's the most famous cocktail.
It's the one cocktail that has.
Not just, uh, history, but awhole culture built around it.
You know, writers have writtenabout it, painters have painted
it.
poets have sung ode to it.
And there's so much debate aboutit that I figured, you know, you

(06:32):
take another cocktail and say,well, can we actually come up
with eight seminars about thisone cocktail?
And maybe not.
But with the martini, there wasno problem.
And also because we're.
the middle of a martini zenith,there martinis are everywhere,
everyone's drinking them, andthere are so many different
versions.

is the great backlash or backwater
or turning point from this?
No.
And low movement everywhere.
Everything is low alcohol, lowalcohol, and then the martini is
rising.
And what I wanna say is what Iwas a little worried about and
kudos to you, you had a martiniexpo that went on for days and.

Uh, a day and a

Well, it was an evening and evening
dinner before, but then it wenton for a whole day into the
evening.
Uh, I did not see muchdrunkenness.
I, I saw people better behavethat at other more general
cocktail, uh, events.
I saw a lot of people not.
Taking selfies everywhere forInstagram.
And I saw a huge diversity ofages.

(07:32):
I saw young people, I saw oldguys like us, uh, and everything
in between.
And, uh, I, I think that the,there really is a renaissance
around this drink.
And I just going in the face oflow and no into high and mighty,
uh, which is what the martiniis.
Uh,

high and mighty

the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2 (07:51):
I thought that was incredible.
People were immersed in themoment.
Yeah.

Yeah.
Um, uh, that was a thing we wereworried about early on, you
know, I mean, is it a good ideato serve people martinis all day
long?
but we did, uh, we were verycareful about it.
Um, for one thing, uh, we knewthat the martini would attract a
certain kind of CLI clientele,so let's just call them more
mature, more sophisticated, moreadult.

(08:16):
uh, they're not, they weren'tgonna come there, you know, to
get

So the Jager meister, so the
Jagermeister Festival wouldmight've been more of a concern
for that.

That's right.

I'm very upset.
There was not a martini iceluge.

oh, um, you know what, that was suggested at
one point and I said, no, we arenot having a luge.
That is not the message we'retrying to send.

the-restaurant-guys_ (08:38):
Excellent.

We did have a nice sculpture though, but no

You did.
I do want to ask you thequestion, and, and people are
gonna hear this question to, uh,from most of our, our
luminaries.
What was the moment in your lifewhere you said, wow, this
martini is an importantcocktail?
It, I, I'm, I need to know moreabout this.

Oh, that's a tough question because I began
drank drinking them a long timeago.
I remember I started thinkingabout them more seriously in
2018 and 2019 because.
Places like, uh, the Grill, youknow what used to be the Four
Seasons, they reopened and theyhad this very serious martini
menu.
And so it made me think aboutMartini martinis more.

(09:21):
And then that just kepthappening.
And of course, during COVID, wewere all making martinis for
ourselves at home.
And then you really have tothink about, well, what do I
like?
You know, what proportions, whatgarnish?

Well, I think you're.
Event was a tremendous successand we're really glad that you
invited us to be the officialpodcasters thereof, and we got
some great material with some ofthe most important people from
across the ocean, from here,from across the continent, and
we're looking forward to talkingwith them all.
Everybody needs to strap in forwhat's about to happen.

Yeah, you guys managed to talk to, um, all the
big names.
I think they were all in there.

We didn't get drunk until after.
So, Robert, thanks for joiningus to launch.
Let's go listen to everybodyelse in the cocktail world of
the Martini Expo 2025.

Francis (10:07):
So we have snagged from the party here here at Martini
Expo at Industry City.
We have with us, the Dean ofLondon Cocktail, Salvatore
Calabrese.
Ooh, that's wonderful to haveyou here, uh, with us in New
York.

Salvatore (10:17):
Thank you.
Thank you, Francis Maestro.

Francis (10:19):
Welcome to the restaurant.
Oh,

Salvatore (10:20):
got

Francis (10:21):
got, thank you.
To invite

Salvatore (10:22):
me.

Mark (10:22):
You

Francis (10:22):
know.
Well, we, we have so many mutualfriends in common for so many
years.
I've heard your name, I've readabout You're the inventor of the
breakfast martini, your thankyou famous tenure at the Playboy
Club and now all around theworld.
It's, uh, it's a nice to meetyou in person.

Mark (10:34):
So one of the things I wanted to share with you is, so
my wife and I last, winter went,were in London.
We're wandering around.
as you obviously know, a lot ofwonderful, wonderful bars in
London.
And one of the places that, thatDale sent me to and said, you
must try, uh, was a place I Iwas unfamiliar with.

(10:55):
It's a place called Donovan Bar.
Yes, and I, we wandered intoDonovan Bar and I was like, what
little slice of heaven have Ientered right here?
And the cocktails were amazingand the bartenders were
fantastic and super welltrained.
I will say, I, I know that, youknow, your name carries a, a lot
of weight and people reallyrecognize every place that, that

(11:17):
you consult for, but I, feellike that place is one of, it's
one of my top five cocktailexperiences of my life.
Oh, thank you.
And I just, I like, peopleshould be talking about Donovan
Barmore.

Francis (11:29):
Yeah.
So what was your philosophy atDonovan Barr?
How did you

Salvatore (11:31):
bring that together?
Well, the, the Donovan Bar, youknow, I took on that bar in
2017.
Right.
And uh, um, and what interest methe most, it was, uh, the
Donovan Bar is not what you sawtoday.
It was totally a different bar,but there is so much history in
that bar.
I, and I got fascinated.

(11:53):
The, the Bronze Hotel is one ofthe oldest hotel, well, the
oldest hotel in London, 1832 hasan incredible history behind.
And, um, so I.
For, well, I love history, andwhat a better way to recreate
legacy and recreate a bar whenin one of the most historical

(12:16):
hotel in the world, you know,the Brown Hotel where people
from Agatha Christie from, uh,uh, Winston Church or Queen
Victoria, anyone, uh, Bel, youknow, uh, the Jungle Book was
written in there.
So there is so much history thatis overwhelming.
The very first telephone callwas made there.
The electricity.

(12:36):
I mean, there won't be no enoughwords to fulfill that book
regarding what Brown Total is.
So when I took over that bar, Idesigned the bar, you know, I
also had my own entrance, theentrance that wasn't there
before.
Mm-hmm.
And I want to create thetheater.
I always say one, the one of themost beautiful part of a bar is

(12:58):
the theater aspect.
Uh, you walk in and you have tofill that soul, you have to fill
that bit.
And that goes, it only comesfrom, uh, great service, great
hospitality, great welcome andfill.
What bar should only be about,you know, I think today what we
do, we trying to strip.
The bar.
Mm-hmm.
With trying to take away thestool away from the bar.

(13:19):
Mm-hmm.
I want the stool at the bar.
I'm trying to, you know,bartender, they're no talkative,
you know, they shake forthemselves.
They don't shake for the, forthe customer.
Well,

Francis (13:30):
that I just wanna.
If I had a T, we had a t-shirtmade that says, don't shake for
yourself.
Shake for the customer.
Yeah, it did.

Mark (13:38):
Did just as simple as eye contact.
Eye contact.
The simplest you truthfully,Salvatore and I had never met
today.
Okay.
As we walked through the roomtogether, we both made eye
contact.
Contact, contact each and that's

Salvatore (13:51):
and for, I wanna know that guy.
No,

Francis (13:56):
you were the Dean of Cocktails in the UK and
especially in London as Londonbecame a cocktail city.
So we started our bar early onwhen Dale was still at the
Rainbow Room, 1992.
And we watched and were a partof the New York community.
But it was very interesting tous as cocktails came from
nowhere.
To the Rainbow Room and then toa few other places.

(14:16):
And we were one of those fewother places.
And then this community grew upin New York, but then like a
dark horse, London came out ofthe ba out of the, from the rear
of the race and for a whileovertook New York.
Oh yeah.
As the worlds center of thecocktail.
And now I think New York andLondon are neck and neck and
there's also so many othercities in the world, like
Chicago and Hong Kong.
But.
What made London bars different?

(14:37):
'cause London, the Londoncocktail scene was and is
materially different than theNew York cocktail scene.

Salvatore (14:43):
Um, I think, you know, the, uh, I hope I have
helped in 1990, in the nineties,you know, the cocktail culture,
it was very du and, uh, I thinkwith few of of my friends, you
know, Dick Brandel.
Peter Durelli, we changed theculture.
We really revamped the, thecocktail culture, I think in the

(15:06):
nineties was the golden age.
Yes.
Of the cocktail culture.
And I think, uh, I hope I helpedas well because I start to, like
Dale, I start to change theattitude of cocktail making.
When before the, when you weremaking a cocktail, it was like
cooking.
You will pick up the worst winethat there was.

(15:26):
Right?
Right.
To cook, right?
Sure.
The cheapest one.
Right now, they don't do thatanymore.
And the same again with withcocktail.
You were making a Manhattan, youwould go and choose the worst
whiskey or the one that it wouldcost you the less, right?
Right.
You would do a gin and tonic.
You would go and pick up theworst gin.
So what I did, I thought, youknow what makes a cocktail?

(15:48):
What is the canvas of great?
Cocktail is the spirit.
Mm-hmm.
So therefore it needs respect.
So I start to change theattitude by putting into
cocktail the.
Premium spirits.
Yeah.
Not the cheapest spirit.
Yeah.
Right.
And those

Mark (16:04):
matter, right.
It's, it's, it's a part of everygreat restaurant.
Of course in the last 30 years.
Those ingredients, you can use

Francis (16:10):
cooking technique to make mediocre food taste good,
but you can use it to make goodfood, taste great, and great
food taste also.
And it's all about ingredient.
And the

Salvatore (16:17):
spirits was the same.
And then I start to use freshingredient.
Yeah.
I start to bring in unusualingredient like, uh, you know,
my breakfast martini is one ofthe most iconic Yeah.
Cocktail ies.
We'll put the

Francis (16:29):
re not.
If anybody el bartenders knowyour recipe martini because it's
part of the canon, but for nonbartenders listening, we'll put
the recipe in the show notes forthat.
Oh, thank you.
Which I created in 1996.

Salvatore (16:38):
Actually, funny enough, when I launched my very
first book in 97, I took therainbow room.
Uhhuh with Dale DeGroff.
That was my first time that Imet Dale, my American, uh, you
know, Sterling from which I hadan American publisher, uh, asked

(16:59):
me, I said, where do you want tolaunch your book?
You know, I said, well, I alwaysheard about Dale DeGroff, the
other person across the Atlanticthat is making a difference in a
cocktail world.
So I therefore, I would like togo to the Rainbow Room.
So we decide,
we got in touch with Dale.
He knew about me and
what we did, we connect and uh, we launched my

(17:20):
very first book at the RainbowRoom.
And that was the very firstpopup bar that there was
internationally.
That's amazing.
It was fantastic.
There was no other, you know,and we made that kind of a
unique night and we.
Present and now I serve mybreakfast Martina at that time
with Dale, you know, and thatwas, that was great.
You know, and if

Francis (17:40):
the very first pop cocktail popup bar in the world
was Salvatore Calabrese and DaleDe the Rainbow Room, that's a
lot going on in one room.
That's the center of thecocktail universe.
And there was no

Salvatore (17:49):
such a thing as such, you know, to international bar
meat to each other and spend anincredible, great night at that
time.
We

Francis (17:56):
are three old guys in at this point.

Mark (17:58):
Oh, right.
Is that We're not, yeah.
So Salvato.
We are at the the Martini Expo,so we gotta talk for about
martinis and, and we've alreadymentioned your breakfast
martini, but what was themartini experience you had that
made you say, this cocktail'simportant, this needs to be part
of, well,

Salvatore (18:12):
martini, to be honest with you, changed my life.
Mm-hmm.
It made who I am today withoutthe martini.
Maybe I wouldn't be here talkingtoday.
And that was in 1985.
I used to work at the Dukes.
I worked at the Dukes Hotel from1982 to 19 95, 12 years to 12,
very happy year.
And.
In 1985, you know, I alreadystart to make a name for myself,

(18:34):
a more for vintage spirits.
Mm-hmm.
I come up with this idea andconcept to sell liquid history
as something that nobody elsewas doing in the world.
And by in 1985, I always said ittook God six days to create the
world.
It took me five to create theperfect master and why.
Because it took me five days tofulfill the expectation of this

(18:57):
customer.
His name was a stunt and deplane who was staying at hotel.
And from the very first day thathe came to the bar, he asked,
and he was a two martini man.
He asked, may I have a verycold, um, but very dry martini.
And I said, of course, Mr.
Dalea plate.
So you what I did, I took themixing glass, I put ice in the

(19:19):
mixing glass, make, put the gin,put the vermer, and then stir.
To make a very, very, very cold.
Obviously, I over diluted to thecocktail.
Sure.
My martini.
And he used to say, yes, this iscold enough, but it's not dry
enough.
So the second drink, you know,because he, as I say, he was a
too martini man.
Mm-hmm.
I used to do more dry and lesscold.

(19:41):
And then he used to nevercomplain, but he was making a
remark.
Like he was happy but not happya hundred percent.
And he was happy because he wasfinishing his drink, right?
And he would say, yeah, this nowis dry enough, but it's not cold
enough.
And every day was the, thedejavu the same and it was the
same scenery.

(20:02):
So much so that by the third dayI start to have a nightmare.
How can I fulfill theexpectation of this person that
every day tells me the samething, right?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So on the fourth day, right, youhave to understand well.
Either five days, the fourthdays, it was a Friday where they
were serving fish and chips downto the staff canteen.

(20:23):
And uh, I went down there tohave lunch and I noticed a
kitchen port, a portal,whatever.
One guy, he was a very fussy howmuch more vinegar wine he wanted
on his chip.
And there was, it was used inthe dash bottle that it was
used, and they used to move thechips away from the plate and
just for boom.
One dash of Moat Wine, right?

(20:45):
The milk vinegar wine on that.
And you used to eat the chip.
And I thought, that's clever.
Now I know how to control thedryness.
And so I took that bottle, thatdash bottle upstairs in the bar,
washed it and put the dry IAF inthere.
Now how do I hell, I'm gonnamake a cold unless I'm going to
over stir it.

(21:05):
So the Dukes bar for 12 years, Iwashed my own glass by hand.
I had a sink, and then under thesink there was a picnic basket
that I had my eyes and a littlestation.
And a little domestic fridge,where in this domestic fridge
there was a little freezer.
So I.
A bottle of gin and two glasses.

(21:26):
It was big enough for one bottleof gin and two glasses.
'cause Mr.
Delaplane always had twoMartine.
Mm-hmm.
So on the fifth day, Mr.
Delaplane came to the bar and ashis usual, you know, it was like
a broken record.
He said, may I have a.
Very dry, a very cold martini.
I said, okay.
So I took the glass away fromthe freezer.

(21:46):
You know, obviously I alreadyprepare my mixing glass with
ice, making it.
So I took the glass from thefreezer and it was very, very
cold, icy cold.
Oh wow.
So I took the bottle from thefreezer.
I don't ask me why, you know, Iopen the bottle and then it says
to put it in the mixing glass.
I put directly in the glass'cause I didn't want that glass
to get warm.

(22:08):
So I pull it straight into theglass, and then I pick up the
dashboard and lay the VE on top.
And remember that.
The Verma has to play his partin the, in the martini.
It has to have the aroma.
Mm-hmm.
It has to have that taste likean Irish coffee.
I lay the Verma on top.
Okay.
And he will stay on top.
So when Mr.

(22:29):
Dela plane was smelling it, hecould strength the ver the vine
and then taste there.
So he took one sip.
He finished the first martiniand didn't complain, didn't say
anything.
Wow.
He asked for the same again.
So because he did not complain,I made it the same way, the
direct way.
Mm-hmm.
He took one sip and walked away.

(22:51):
I said, for Christ sake, my,this guy, what have I done now
every day, you know, he is man,you know, complain that, you
know, yes, dry enough, not coldenough.
Cold enough, not dry enough, youknow?
But at least this time it didn'teven.
Moan didn't even complain.
He just walked away.
Okay.
But then a few hours later, hecame back down and introduced
himself, who he was.

(23:11):
Stan Deplane, a very famousjournalist.
He used to write for the SanFrancisco Colon.
Mm-hmm.
Los Angeles Town, New YorkTimes.
I freelance a very famous personand he says, Salvato, I enjoyed
your martini so much so that Iwrote an article and show me the
facts in this.
Uh.
If you ever go to London, youmust make a stop at the Dukes
bar where Salvato will make youthe best martini in the planet.

(23:34):
And that was the beginning.
'cause every time he came toLondon, the Dukes martini was
his stop and he was talked aboutthe martini and everything else
that it was, and the legacybeginning.
That's, that's smart.
So much so that the, you know,the legacy still stand, you
know, the Dukes is still famousfor the martini, but through
that I met, uh, uh, many iconicpeople.

(23:56):
Sean Connery came for themartini.
Everyone who is a martiniobviously have to

Mark (24:01):
have a Dukes martini,

Salvatore (24:02):
even a majesty.
You know, I could truly say, youknow, my martini has a royal
crest.
How a person can say they havethe royal crest for the martini.
I do.
You know,

Mark (24:12):
so for everybody listening out there.
People complaining is not nearlyas powerful as when you go to a
customer and say, how'severything?
And they say.
Everything's fine.
Yeah, right.
Everything's fine Is like adagger.
Yeah, it's like a dagger.
That means something is stillfun.

(24:32):
Yeah.
I worked really hard.
I don't want

Francis (24:34):
fine.

Mark (24:34):
Yeah, no, no.
I want something moresuperlative.

Francis (24:37):
Right.
And to just review.
So what Sal, I said that you, ifyou're, if you haven't been
paying attention out there andlistener land, yes.
It's just a freezer martini, butwith no dilution.
Mm-hmm.
When all these freezer martinisthat are popular now people are
working in the dilution youwould get from staring it.
So yours is just.

Salvatore (24:54):
Well, there is a little dilution, to be honest
with you, because what I do,obviously I perfected my dry
martini.
Mm-hmm.
So, and that's what I used to doeven in the eighties.
I used to put a dash of water inthe martini.
Mm-hmm.
In the martini glass.
In the glass.
Mm-hmm.
Toasting it, right?
Mm-hmm.
And then leave it in the fridge.
In the freezer.
So whenever I used to make themartini, that was done.

(25:18):
The five milliliter of dilutionYep.
That you want, that you usuallyencounter.
And an added

Mark (25:24):
coldness at the same time.
Yeah.
But

Salvatore (25:25):
because it was cold, I mean, there was, have you ever
heard the Sta um.
Es No, ES was a very, veryfamous journalist.
A, a writer actually.
He, after Ian Fleming, he wasthe first one who took over from
Ian Fleming and start to write abook about James Bond.
Bond.
Yes.

(25:45):
And he was uh, I would say anearnest em anyway, but with an
English attitude, Uhhuh.
And he used to come at the Dukesin the eighties.
He used to wear his blazer andhe used to wear this cavat.
Like you, you know, a man of apresence.
Both of you, you know, Uhhuh aman with a presence.
Then he used to ask for thebloody mirror, used to ask for

(26:05):
Manhattan, but then the martini,and once he wrote an article in
Illustrate London New, and hesaid, uh.
I find of a bar with a bartenderto match how difficult there is
to,, to create a well-balanceddry martini, which stays cold
enough all throughout thedrinking period.

(26:26):
And that is what is the secret,is a gray martini is not just
how you make it, but how youmaintain the temperature mm-hmm.
All throughout the drinkingperiod.
Because remember, it doesn'tmatter about the dilution, it
doesn't matter how you do it.
But anything that becomes to bewarm, the alcohol start to kick.
And you want to make sure that,the heart, the soul of that

(26:50):
drink stays into that drink.

Francis (26:52):
Alright, final question.

Salvatore (26:54):
Okay.
Ah.

Francis (26:55):
When we were young bartenders, which means when you
were a young bartender, peopleused to order martinis.
Half the time they were on therocks, and half the time they
were up.
The martini on the rocks is allthe forgotten.
Yes.
Is it justifiably forgotten oris it overlooked?

Salvatore (27:08):
Well, I think, you know, I think it's justifiable.
you know, gone.
Because when you ask for martinion the rocks, that means it's
pugin or pew vodka.
You actually drink V vodka onthe rocks.
Mm-hmm.
That means it's over diluted,It's, you lose the elegant,
remember the glassware is likeseeing a beautiful woman who

(27:31):
walks through the bar and she'sall elegant, dressed up.
That is the martini glass, thatis the elegancy of a Martin, and
the martini

Francis (27:39):
on the rocks is sweatpants and a sweat and short
trousers.
Yeah, fair enough.
It's okay.
Salvatory Calabresi, thank youfor taking the time out at
Marchini Expo and cinema us.
What a pleasure talking to you.
Thank you.
Oh, come on

Salvatore (27:49):
guys.
Um, thank you very much toinvite me and, uh, I hope you
can come.
To the Donovan again, I promise.
And, uh, enjoy my house.
Thank you.
We will.
Thank you so much, Francis.
Thank you.
Thank God bless you man.
Thanks so much.

Liam Davy (28:04):
So we've doved back into the party here at the
Martini Expo and we've grabbedLiam Davy to come talk with us
for a while.
Liam is the director of one ofour favorite cocktail programs
of a steakhouse, but not anindividual steakhouse.
A steakhouse chain hawks.
More in the uk.
It's great to call it a chain.
We we go, we say group.
That was unfair.
Definitely not changing.
Cheers came at the martini.

(28:32):
When I say, I'm not kidding thatwe like hawks more, our
Christmas present to each other.
Either last year or the yearbefore was gift certificates to
Hawks more.
Oh it's, that's actually a truestory.
So we would all go out to dinnerat Hawks More together.
You guys know me now so youdon't have to worry about gift
certificates anymore.
We, so, by the way, comesstraight to the source and the
hero of that story is Hawks morebecause Mark called me a couple
of months later and said, we'regoing out with the Paisanos.

(28:52):
Can I have that gift certificateback?
That's true.
True story.
The gift certificate I gave himfor Hawks more, I took and used
You used used both of them.
I love that.
We'll make sure you guys gotsome S in the, alright, dude,
you're, you're.
And I have been to several HawksMores in your group.
And I was at the one in Dublin.
I was traveling with a friendand we walked in.

(29:13):
You had just opened.
Yeah.
And it was so disappointing'cause it was late and we didn't
have time to have dinner.
We wanted to have a drink atyour beautiful bar.
Yeah, but they told us that yourpermitting wasn't place.
Oh, the license is a nightmarethere.
So that Oh, I know.
Dublin's a nightmare.
Wait, so what they said was, sothere were people drinking at
tables and they said, yeah, ourlicense only permits drinking if
you're having dinner.

(29:33):
That is so unfair.
Grab some snails.
Yeah.
I mean there's, there's twothings there.
One of which is trying to tellDublin as they can't have a
drink is pretty hard.
Yeah.
And American transplants toDublin, same thing.
Exactly.
And secondly, you know, thatbuilding used to be for what it
was before.
Mm-hmm.
It was, it was an Abercrombieand Fitch.
Oh.
And you can still occasionallysmell the kind of, the sort of
musk odor from time to time.
So.

(29:53):
Well that's, that's lovely.
And you just tell people thatit's an ingredient in the
martini.
It's a special vermouth we use.
Exactly.
Alright, so listen, one of thethings that's really interesting
is we just, you, you just passedSalvato Calabrese on the way out
the door.
Yes.
And it's very, and it's one ofthe things that's lovely about
this particular event is itreally has a lot of an
international, group of peoplewho've come here.
The Martini is an internationaldrink and the two leading cities

(30:16):
of the world that led thecocktail revolution were London
and New York.
Yeah, absolutely.
Why are you here?
Did you fly across the ocean forthis?
How important is this?
What about the martini?
I do, I'm very, so, I'm verylucky to come over to the US uh,
three or four times a year,normally, sometimes more, uh, to
work with our restaurants overhere.
And one of the first things wereally wanted to do at Hawkes
More in New York when we openedwas, you know.

(30:37):
We're a British company, peoplewere, were expecting us not to
be able to compete on the steakfront, but also could we compete
on the martini front.
And so everything we've done inthat bar has always been about
elevating the martinis as highas possible and trying to make
the best possible martini in thecity.
Why did you focus on martinis?
Because that that is becoming anincreasingly post COVID
important part of the cocktaillexicon.

(30:57):
It was always there for the OGsfor the baseline.
Yeah.
But now it's like there's amartini mania and you guys were
ahead of that curve.
We were slightly, I mean, whenwe got here in 2020, just before
COVID, um, I love the idea thatour drinks list feels like an
old school steakhouse.
Like an old school Americansteakhouse.
Yeah.
And, and all of the drinks arecoated in that way, but we still

(31:18):
use modern techniques to try andelevate them to be world-class
cocktail bar drinks.
Mm-hmm.
So you can, you look, it looksand feels like you're in a
steakhouse, but the drinks are.
I would say better than youwould get in your average
steakhouse.
Certainly.
Um, and the martini for us wasalways the kind of the key one
to get right.
That for me is the drink that'smost synonymous with baseline
steakhouse experience.
Yeah.
I think that's got, that'sexactly right.
It's a baseline, but I thinkFrancis being a little unfair

(31:39):
because your cocktail program isextraordinary.
Oh, that's, it's extraordinary.
It was one of my favorite placesto have a cocktail in New York
City.
For, for a while now.
I think you, you really haveelevated.
There are a lot of greatcocktails, great garnishes, a
great focus on garnishes thatmake the drink better.
Thank you.
I really appreciate That's niceto, which is a total pet peeve

(32:00):
of mine is, is the whole worldof garnishes that are for pretty
Yeah, yeah.
And, and not just, not forinside, inside baseball to make
the cocktail better.
We, our staff came up with acocktail and there's, it's a
lovely cocktail, but it's just,they wanted a little bit of a
gold leaf on top of a big cube.
And it hurts Mark's soul everytime that cocktail goes out.
It actually is beautiful.
So we let it go and they'relike, but you can eat it.

(32:21):
He's like, but you shouldn't eatit.
There's no reason.
Make it better.
Make it better.
We have, so we're a little bithypocritical.
We have one cocktail in thehistory of our restaurant that
has a but, but.
Right after our own hearts.
Right.
We have two restaurants in thesame building and one of them is
a steakhouse.
Yeah.
And since 1993, we have pridedourselves on, you are going to
start with a great cocktail.

(32:43):
Yeah.
And then maybe you're gonna moveon to a glass of champagne.
Yeah.
And then we're gonna have awonderful wine list for you.
And you're gonna have some ofthe best stakes in the world.
That's, that's gonna be part ofthe experience.
But I think that one of the waysthe world has changed is.
Great cocktails are expected.
You want to be a greatrestaurant.

(33:03):
Great cocktails are part of thatexperience, right?
You don't need the cocktail bararound the corner before you go
to the nice restaurant thatdoesn't have a good cocktail
bar.
I completely agree with you, butI do think that as cocktails
have got gotten more expensiveand more esoteric mm-hmm.
That for a lot of peoplethey've, the first thing to go
from their, from their order is.
They just ditch the cocktail orthey go somewhere else for a
drink beforehand.
And I think part of that isleaving a little bit, leaving

(33:25):
your ego at the door andrealizing what people actually
want from a steakhouseexperience.
They want a great martini.
Yeah, they want an amazing oldfashioned, they want a great
house Bloody Mary.
They want a good champagnecocktail.
You know, those simple drinks.
That doesn't mean that you can'tbe creative in how you make
those better, but those drinksthemselves need to be very clear
what they're, and so ourmartini, our house martini has,
you know, gin vermouth.
A little bit lemon oil and waterand that's it.

(33:47):
You know, we're not adding loadsof extra stuff in there, but we
just, it's a few techniques thatmake that a really brilliant
martini, and that's, I think,what people, we think people
want.
I think you can mess with themartini as long as you already
have a, a great martini on yourlist.
I think you can have a secondarymartini that is, is interesting
and different and has the littlequote marks around martinis.

(34:08):
Don't worry about that.
We got plenty.
Everyone you need, you need toknow how to paint a horse before
you can paint an abstract horseand taken seriously.
What a lovely, what a lovelyanalogy.
I think, I think my art historyprofessor's gonna be mad at me
when she hears that, but, well,no, I do wanna say though, and I
think you guys were really, youcaught a wave you.
Hmm.
And you maybe you helped to makethe wave, but I think in

(34:32):
steakhouses,'cause you know,Dale.
When, when we used to go, weused to have a, a lunch club
called The Red Meat Club.
Yeah, yeah.
In 1993 to 2000, and we went outto lunch on the second Monday of
every month.
All restaurant people.
And there were only certainthings you were, there were
certain cocktails that wereallowed to be had before lunch.
Tell me what they are.
Uh, martini Manhattan.

(34:53):
Yeah.
Bloody.
Bloody Mary.
Yeah.
And Dale had a cold one day.
So tea with lemon and somebrandy in it.
Okay.
He's always, he's alwaysskipping his round.
Give an acceptable, you know,when Dale wants something, you
change the rules.
Yeah.
That's, that's how that works.
Um, so I think the martini iscentral to a steakhouse because
what's a steakhouse at thecenter of a great steakhouse has

(35:13):
to be really good quality meatstripped down.
Yeah.
And the artifice of the chef.
It's just not fucking it up.
Right.
Yeah.
And that's a martini as well.
Hundred percent.
And the other thing, I thinkwhat you said earlier is people
are drinking less, but better.
There is an aesthetic wherepeople are drinking less
alcohol.
Yeah.
They're having fewer drinks inthe course of a night going out
to dinner.
Fewer times.

(35:33):
Yeah.
But they're drinking better andwe're selling a ton of caviar.
Mm-hmm.
We're selling expensive steaksand martinis are that it's, I'm
gonna have.
A potent three and a half ouncedrink.
Amazing.
Start my day.
But something you said a minuteago I agree with mostly, but I'm
seeing some younger people.

(35:53):
Ride cocktails all the waythrough the dinner now.
Yeah, yeah.
That kind of, kind of come in,have a cocktail and just ride
cocktails all the way through.
Yeah.
I think, listen, people ask allthe time about matching
cocktails and food and assomeone who literally makes
cocktails for a living, I'm notgonna do myself, you know, dirty
and say, don't.
Drink cocktails with food.
But my personal view isparticularly in the kind of
steakhouse environment, thatwine goes better with steak

(36:14):
than, than cocktails do, if I'mhonest.
But all of the bits around that,and that's what we, we do really
at Hawkes more, it'sparticularly the pre dinner
part, but also the after dinnerpart and maybe like a little
sipper in between.
You know what, what, whateveryou.
Feel that's, that's the occasionfor that.
But you know, I think if, if youlike cocktails and wanna drink
them with your steak, thenfantastic.
Yeah, no, I, I'm with, and, andif you're gonna drink a cocktail
with your steak Mar martini's,the best one.

(36:34):
So since we're at the MartiniExpoo, can I ask you a couple of
martini specific questions?
Please Go for it.
This is a international, uh, bicontinental, um, opinion.
So here's a question for you.
I'm What makes a martini amartini?
Because we're seeing all sortsof variations of martini.
So we'd all admit that a martinimade the saki instead of
vermouth is still a martini.
Yeah, but a martini withgrapefruit juice and cranberry

(36:57):
juice and Grenadine is no longera martini.
What makes a martini a martini?
Do you know what?
I don't think there's a, adefinitive answer to that.
I just don't.
I don't Coward coward, and I'mnot, I'm not entirely, I'm not
entirely sure.
It matters really for me,martinis.
Is is clear?
Yep.
Um, it's made with a whitespirit.
Yep.
Probably gin and vodka, but I'vehad some great tequila martinis.

(37:18):
I've had some, and with theother weirder spirits, I think
it's just, you know, I, thedebate's fun if people, I'm not,
I'm not curious.
That's why we're having it.
I'm not, I'm not a, and also Idon't really want to kind of,
uh, overlay my opinions onto,onto other people.
So I would say gin, gin andvodka mixed with something kind
of.
Wine.
Wine based.
Very cold.
Said straight up.
That's smart.
I seen you.

(37:38):
I would say clear.
All of those things.
Yeah.
And no juice.
You add juice and you've changedit.
What do you think?
So it's Olive Bryan juice.
Are we calling it?
No, olive.
Brown is not juice.
It's an old magical thing in itsown category.
Look at now, you're making up.
I talk.
Well understand.
We make stuff up.
I mean, the problem is if youtry and make rules after having
like three martinis.
So we're really looking forwardto the, the later people that we

(37:59):
interview.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's gonna be a mess who have,who have been cocktailing for,
for more hours.
So my question to you is, what'sthe Martini Expoerience that
changed the way you look atmartinis?
Oh, that's a wonderful question.
So we've got, uh, Dale behindthe bar, just over the road from
us.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I used to work, um, for acompany in London called Match
Bar Milk, which is part of theMilk and Honey group.
Yep.
Um, and Dale used to be our kindof consultant.

(38:21):
He'd come over a couple of timesa year and, and make drinks for
us.
And I remember going into Milkand Honey one night when he was
behind the bar and he wasmaking, he was making the drinks
and he made a martini.
And I think that was the firsttime I'd seen someone kind of,
it was made with such confidencein such prash that I think even
before I'd tasted it, you knewit was gonna be amazing and it
felt really special.
And for me, the martinis netshould never be about kind of

(38:42):
throwing things over.
It's quite fun having an anairport martini or a dive by
martini from time to time.
But a great martini about thatkind of, that confidence and
style that someone puts into it.
Before, you had Salvatore inhere just before me.
I think if you come to certainbars in London, like the con
where they really put loads ofmm-hmm.
Our, our other favorite bar.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And Dukes and all thesefantastic places where they kind
of, it really, you know, you.

(39:03):
You feel incredible.
It makes you feel incrediblebefore you've even sipped it.
And so that for me is the kindof the art of the martini I say.
Okay.
Two quick questions and, andwe'll let you go back to the
party.
Yeah.
Um, because I see you still havemartini left, so just still time
that we can ask you questions,you know.
Oh, now it's gone.
Alright, so, um.
Standard serve of a martini.
How many ounces or send litersof booze should go into it

(39:24):
before staring, before dilution?
Hmm.
Okay.
So I would say, so actually inthe UK we have, we set them
slightly smaller than we do herebecause you slightly bigger, um,
I think three ounces of boozeplus a little bit of a moose is
about, is about right.
For me, the worst thing about amartini when it's.
Insufficiently diluted.
Yeah.
I think you need to make surethe dilution correct.
Unless you're having Duke starmartinis, which we're gonna be,

(39:45):
we're doing right.
I was gonna say, you andSalvatore are gonna go, but I
think that, I think that withthat you can get it so cold and
if you can keep it really cold,then it's great.
I don't know if you had thisphase in, in the uk, but we had
here in the.
Late eighties and through thenineties, we went through the
huge martini glass, the sevenounce martini, and better fill
it to the top.
I've had a few, I've a few ofthose in Chicago when they, and
they're big and they're quitedaunting and I'm just like, and,

(40:07):
and first and the second half ofthem is terrible though.
Yeah.
It's, the second half isterrible.
It's warm and you're loaded.
Right.
Okay.
And then, uh, final question,Kaball question.
When we started bartending in 1986, 87, yikes.
people would order martinis andhalf the time they'd be up and
half the time they'd be on therocks.
Yeah, on the rocks.
Martini is dead.

(40:28):
Is it dead for a good reason orshould it is it overlooked.
My guilty pleasure, my favorite.
Drink that I ever have is not inthe bar.
It's not in the restaurant.
It's at home when I'm cookingand if I'm making a martini for
myself at home, I'll stir it andI'll pour it onto a big block of
ice and I'll drink it while I'mcooking because the kitchen's
hot.
It's quite nice to have it kindof, it dilutes slowly and it
just makes it much sense.
Francis is looking, looking verywith contempt.

(40:52):
No, no.
Nice.
A nice big block of ice.
Not kind of like dive bar rice,but you know, it's delicious.
It tastes great.
Mark.
Mark.
Got that all wrong.
I wanna get invited over.
Yeah.
One of the things I think is alost art of the martini is when
people used to have thosecylindrical pictures.
Yeah.
And you'd put two martinis wherethe martini in there and drink
the first one really strong andkeep drinking as it gets colder.
But anyway, uh, thank you forthe insight.

(41:13):
Thanks for taking the time outtathis pleasure Liam gave from
Hawks.
It has been a true pleasure totalk to you.
Thank you very much.
we really do love your places.
We look forward to having aMartin together at some point.
Sounds great.
Forward to it.
Sounds great.
Thank you very much.
Thanks for coming in.
Cheer guys.
Thanks.

Francis (41:28):
Hey there.
So we have come back now withCharlotte Voie, who we've stolen
from the party.
Uh, sorry for pulling you outtathe martini party, but you have
to talk to the restaurant guyswhen you're, here's Charlotte
was a, a guest on the show justrecently.
Yeah.
And Charlotte runs Tales of theCocktail, which is the largest
cocktail conference in theworld.
And here you are, in Brooklyn atthe.

(41:49):
Martini Expo.
The Martini Expo, which is allabout one specific drink, the
martini.
Um, what are you, what are yourthoughts of

Charlotte Voisey (41:56):
today?
I love this.
I mean, Robert Simonson, andthey came up with this idea to
do a martini party, a martiniexpo in New York, and the
industry said, sure, why not?
Why haven't we done this before?
But don't you think it's, Imean, I don't think there's a,
another single, like a margaritaparty wouldn't have been like
this.
This is a, this is the mostsophisticated.

(42:16):
A margarita party would've beenmuch messier than this.
Oh yeah.
It would've been fun.
Okay.
However, you're right.
But do you know what, it'sfunny, I was afraid when I
thought coming into this, andlet's say it's Robert Simonson
and Mary Kate.
As well who put this together.
Yes, absolutely.
Uh, super important to mention,but yes, I was talking with Dale
last night actually, Uhhuh,because he crashed at my place
on the way over here, and wesaid, so tomorrow's gonna be

(42:39):
great.
It's gonna be great.
He's given a seminar.
We're doing podcasts.
Mm-hmm.
A lot of our friends are gonnabe here, but we're like.
It's gonna be messy, isn't it?
People are gonna be erected.
And we thought, you know, amartini is a very strong drink
to be doing seven hour festivalover, but nobody's wrecked.
It's actually super civilized.
It's very civilized.

(42:59):
It's super civilized.
It's shockingly civilized.
Well, and I've noticed that themartinis being served are in
little tiny mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Teeny martini glasses, whichhelps, I think that's very
responsible.
Yeah.
And you know, people are here tolearn.
They're here to network Talk.
So I think, you know, thathelps.
But people aren't just here todrink.
They're here to learn andunderstand.
Yeah.
And, and connect with industryfriends.

(43:22):
So it's true.
You know what Mark and I weresaying earlier that because,
okay, so you've just taken overrunning tales of the cocktail,
right?
Mm-hmm.
But we have seen, met each otherat, at different tales of the
cocktail.
In your different iterations ofyour career for 20 years or
more.
Yes.
Yes.
And we, we were saying, is thisOh, you were like 14.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Ab, absolutely.

(43:42):
Yeah.
So this feels like an earlytales of the cocktail.
Would you agree with that?
It's, it's got that same reunionfeel, right?
Yeah.
I think anytime that industryfriends and peers can get
together, and we have someinternational guests here as
well, a lott.
It's not just New York, right?
Yeah.
This is a lovely turnout.
I think anytime you get thatmoment of connection.
Um, a little bit of education,some great cocktails.

(44:04):
Yeah.
It's got that tales feel becauseit's the, it's a reunion.
Well, the other thing though isI think tales is, the flagship
event of the cocktail world.
Yes.
And we have an awards dinner.
We have a, this is a very smallevent, and I think it's, I think
this event may grow, but it'sagain, being about one drink, a
seminal drink.
A foundational drink.
Yep.
Um.

(44:25):
it's a much smaller scale, butvery serious at the same time.
Yeah.
It's interesting'cause it isabout one specific cocktail
writing.
It's creepy, right?
I guess.
Others people might think, isthere really that much to talk
about?
But there is, because we'retalking about the martini, which
dates back to the what?
Mid to late 18 hundreds.
Yep.
Right.
Yet we're still talking about ittoday.

(44:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And there are still so manyiterations of the martini, but
at the same time, there's somuch reverence around this
iconic cocktail.
Yeah.
That you almost feel like peopleare.
Not scared, but careful.
Right.
With the way they riff on themartini, because if you take it
too far, it's no longer amartini's.
So there's lot of reference.
You're taking him right to hisfirst question, but the

(45:06):
martini's an important cocktail.
This is, this is, it's the mostimportant cocktail.
It is, it is the most importantcocktail was gonna say there are
a couple of questions we've beenasking everybody and you led me
right to it, so, okay.
So the question is, what is amartini?
Oh, and that's very, that's adangerous questions.
Yeah, exactly.
So, uh, lemme lay out theparameters.
Yep.
So we would all agree that ifyou swap, swap out the vermouth

(45:28):
for sake, you're still inmartini territory.
We would all agree that if youhad cream and uh, cranberry
juice, you are, no.
You have left mu martini.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Martini has left the building.
Did you say cream and cranberryjuice?
Yeah.
And you're fired as a bartender.
Many things wrong with it.
Alright.
So what makes a martini amartini in Charlotte Purist.

(45:50):
View.
Ooh, this is controversialterritory.
Um, I would say it's acombination of gin or vodka and
vermouth.
Mm-hmm.
Classically, right.
This is where we're starting.
Right.
But what can I add in and stillOr substitute, yeah.
This is what Im thinking.
Leave it still a martini.
How far can my riff go beforeit's a different song?

(46:10):
I think the vermouth can beriffed into something that adds,
um, a bit of flavor.
Mm-hmm.
That.
That botanical note preferably,but, you know, Chartres are here
today.
One could argue that a hint ofChartres has a similar role in a
martini.
That vermouth might, however,being so much stronger in

(46:32):
alcohol, we'd have to like, um,So does it have to be all
alcohol?
Is that, is that part of being amartini?
I think so.
No juice?
No, it's gotta be all boo.
No, no juice, no syrup, nocitrus.
Right.
Alright.
I mean, oils, absolutely.
We welcome that.
Of course, Uhhuh.
But, uh, we should share that,that Charlotte, in a previous

(46:53):
life.
Was, you know, one of the, themain, main, she was the lady,
the main face lady at Hendrick'sChin.
Yeah.
So she's, she knows what Joetalk, so there aren't a lot of
people who know more about thisquestion than she does.
There's a fair few out thereright now.
Now there's, they're, if they'rein the world, they're out there
right now.
Now, yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
They're all here under one roof,which is why you're asking these
questions.
But yeah, I mean, if, by theway, we've asked all this

(47:16):
question and this is a question.
There it was not quite defined,but if anyone's gonna define it,
it's a consensus in, in thisroom.
Yeah.
I think we've gotten 10different answers.
I think after today you, you'vegot it right.
So I, I'll figure it out at theend of the day.
I mean, there are people whowill say, if it's not gin plus
vermouth, it's not a martini.
I mean, you may have heard thattoday.
I don't know.
I think most people will acceptvodka in vermouth.

(47:38):
Yeah.
Uh, but, I think the consensusthat's coming around is, if you
want to call it a martini, it'sgotta be not cloudy.
It's gotta be a clear spirit,and, and not a brown spirit.
Even though historically youcould use whiskey and sweet
vermouth and, it's no juice, allbooze.
And, and that's, that's theabsolutely seems to be the
thing.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Alright.
When Mark and I startedbartending in the 1980s Okay.

(48:01):
When people ordered martinis inManhattans Yeah.
They were as likely to orderthem on the rocks as they were
up.
Yep.
Yep.
The martini on the rocks mm-hmm.
Is, is gone the way of the dodober.
Yep.
Should it be revisited or is itdead where it's supposed to be?
What do you think about Martinion the rocks?
It's interesting'cause when Istarted bartending in the
nineties, Uhhuh, I was taughtwith a martini.
You asked three questions.

(48:21):
Yes.
Right.
Upper on the rocks.
Chin Vodka, Oliver Twit.
Yes.
That's, there is, those are thequestions, remember?
Yeah.
Those are the three questions.
And nobody asks up on the rocksand Marshall.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
The Negroni two, by the way, butthe other way round, right?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
It used to always be, um oh.
And now it's on the rocks, but Ithink martini on the rocks.
The thing about that is, for me,you lose the elegance.
And one of the cornerstones of amartini.

(48:43):
Not only the ingredients thatwe've just spoken about.
Right.
But I think a martini shouldalways be elegant.
I agree.
And one easy way to do that isto serve it up in an elegant
glass.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So I don't think we shouldrevisit the martini on the
rocks, even though it might be aslightly easier sip.
Final question.
Mm-hmm.
the experience you had, whereyou realized the martini was

(49:07):
gonna be important in your life,that was when it, 2006, I was
working with the DorchesterHotel in London.
We refurbed the Dorchester bar,and it was an homage to
vermouth, whoa.
And classic cocktails withvermouth that had kind of been
long gone, gone, and forgotten,were brought back, but it was

(49:30):
the.
Just the care and reverence toclassic cocktails.
The martini, it was revisitingthe Martine the first time I
really learned about thatcocktail.
Um, but sitting at that bar onceit was opened, and this was like
the night before I left to moveto the us.
Mm-hmm.
So this was big, like, wow,that's a big night.
Yeah.
And having a martini in thatmoment, understanding the care

(49:52):
uhhuh behind the drink, I waslike, oh yeah, this is, this is
the pinnacle of everything.
Um, I love it.
That's great.
You know what I love Matt.
Every person that we've talkedto without hesitation has had a
moment like that.
Oh yeah.
Every per'cause we've asked thisthat exact question or a similar
question to every single person,and everybody's had that moment.

(50:14):
And why is there a martini expo?
Yeah, because every person inthis profession who's here
today.
Has had a moment like that.
And every mar I would say mostmartini drinkers have probably
had a moment that it's kind oflike coming of age.
It's kind of like growing upyou're done with.
Mm-hmm.
Silly.
I mean, you know, in college wemade blue whales with country

(50:35):
time lemonade and blue ke I in agarbage can.
You know what I mean?
Did a brand new garbage canthough.
You did buy a brand new garbagecan.
Oh.
And we didn't get arrested, butthe martini.
I, I felt like James Bond when Ilearned how to appreciate a
martini.
It is, it's a rite of passage.
It's that moment where you feelsophisticated.
It's a little bit seductive, ifI can use that word.

(50:55):
Right.
You can.
You're allowed.
Yeah.
And it's, it's special.
And I think having a martini.
Isn't an everyday thing for meanymore.
And I love that you saidanymore.
I love that you said anymorebecause I was like, I knew you
Charlotte, but that's onlybecause I had the privilege of
working with Hendricks and, anddoing that.
But it, I don't think it shouldbe an everyday thing.
It's such a special drink andmoment and experience and the

(51:19):
glassware and the temperatureand all, everything that goes
into a perfect martini.
It shouldn't be an everydaything.
It's a, it's a special thing tocherish.
Love it.
Well Charlotte, thanks fortaking the time to talk to us
about the martini.
Thank you.
No one more qualified to talkabout the Martini than you and
uh, and we will see you at tailsof the cocktail next year.
Yes.
We'll, a good, can't wait.
Alright.
Thank you so much.
Great.
Thanks Charlotte.

(51:40):
Thank you.
Thanks Charlotte.

Hey, that was a great show.
Charlotte Voisey.
Love her.
you're gonna love the next setof shows we have too.
Yeah.
Coming up on Thursday, we'regonna have William Elliot from
Maison Premier, an amazing placeout in Brooklyn.
We have Tim Cooper from Ford'sGin and Sarah Morrissey,
recently of Voor, which is oneof the.
Most important cocktails to hitManhattan in a long time.

(52:01):
Stick with us and um, SaturdayShow will be for restaurant guys
regulars only.
So it's time to sign up andbecome a restaurant.
Guys, regular.
Hope you had a good time.
We'll see you again on Thursday.
I'm Francis Shot.
I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurant guys.
You can find outmore@restaurantguyspodcast.com.

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