May 15, 2025 • 39 mins
This is a Vintage Selection from 2005
The Banter
The Guys talk about a new trend: concierge for teens.
The Conversation
The Restaurant Guys catch up with traveling writer Michael Stern who searches for our country’s best roadside restaurants. They discuss the finest dishes he’s encountered and where he finds the best (and worst) places.
The Inside Track
The Guys often road trip through the U.S. and were thrilled to hear Michael and his wife Jane’s theory about a pillar of American cuisine: barbecue. Here is their tip on finding the best places.
“ Jane and I, in fact, developed a whole theory. It's the pigs plus Jesus theory of barbecue. When you're in the deep south, if you go into a barbecue parlor and see a lot of religious iconography on the wall, chances are very good the barbecue is gonna be excellent,” Michael Stern on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2005
Bio
Michael and his wife Jane were trailblazing guides for over 40 years. After meeting at Yale, where they came to study art, they began a collaboration that has yielded over forty books including New York Times best sellers Elvis World and The Encyclopedia of Bad Taste. Michael is co-creator of roadfood.com – the first website to feature photography.
In 1992, Jane and Michael Stern were inducted into the Who's Who of Food and Beverage in America for their pioneering work discovering regional food. Michael was an editor at Gourmet Magazine for 17 years. The monthly column he and Jane Stern wrote won three James Beard journalism awards. He was a contributing editor to Saveur Magazine from 2010 to 2015. The Sterns were regular weekly guests on the Public Radio show, The Splendid Table. In 2016 the Smithsonian Institution acquired the Jane & Michael Stern Roadfood collection for its permanent archives.
Info
Michael & Jane's book
Road Food 17th Ed
By Jane and Michael Stern
Roadfood
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Francis (00:40):
And check out at our website, uh,
www.restaurantguysradio.com.
And you we are also podcastingon iTunes and Podcast Alley and
all those fun internet siteswhere you can subscribe and have
this show sent directly to yourcomputer.
Every day we put one up.
Good
Mark (00:54):
morning, mark.
That'd be really fun.
Yeah, that is really fun.
I have to, you could actuallyprogram it so you wake up in the
morning to us talking to you.
Francis (01:01):
Yeah.
Your wife is hard.
You have to deal, have to dealwith that.
That's all I have to say.
so what's new Mark?
Uh, there's lots of new things.
You know, I was, I was readingthe paper and I was thinking
about your travail, last week toOhio.
To Ohio with the kids in the carand traveling with kids.
Mark (01:17):
Travail is a good word for it,
Francis (01:18):
and I had an, I had an interesting experience not
traveling with kids, but I, Iwent to Ireland in the spring
with my sister and we took my17-year-old niece who's a
charming young woman.
but it's interesting travelingwith the team, adopted.
No genetically related even, butmy, you know, that makes no
difference.
Soul in the family.
but we traveled with my, myniece and it, you know, it
occurred to me, and it alwaysoccurs to me when people come to
(01:39):
New York or New Jersey and they,they're like, oh, show us
around.
And I think.
When you're coming with yourkids, right?
Or you're sending Right.
My nephew to see me.
Okay.
Let's see.
What can I do?
Cigar bar?
No, they don't.
You don't want them to show youthem around, that's for sure.
cause what do I do with my, andI think, all right.
Cigar bar, no martinis, no.
FEO Schwartz.
Come on.
I could do the museum uhhuh.
(02:00):
But I, but so it's, it's, Ithink it's interesting to travel
with teens and, and I sometimeshave to think outside the box
because mm-hmm.
You know, I don't have kids, soI don't usually run in the.
In this, in that circle, in theChucky
Mark (02:10):
cheese circle sounds when the Mars 12, 11,
Francis (02:12):
14, 11, whatever that space age restaurant is in New
York.
But so, you know, I have tothink hard about it when I
travel.
Mm-hmm.
And I must say I'm a greatuncle, so I come up with cool
stuff.
But, um, there is now a growingmovement of having concierges in
hotels for teens.
I think it's
Mark (02:28):
kind of
Francis (02:28):
neat.
I think that's really the
Mark (02:30):
cruise director for your team.
That's
Francis (02:31):
exactly right.
At the, at the Four SeasonsHotel and Resorts in Chicago,
Atlanta, New York, London,Philadelphia, and Toronto.
Um, they have these like youngtwenties mm-hmm.
Concierges that are specificallythere to help teens not be bored
and find something to do.
Mark (02:45):
Well, because they're old enough to, to go and venture out
on their own, but they're notnecessarily old enough to want
to go to the museum with theirparents
Francis (02:55):
or, or, or to go to, you know, or to go to the museum
for a little while.
Mm-hmm.
Not to go to, you know, dinnerat the, the fancy restaurant.
Right.
Maybe they don't wanna do that.
Anyway, Lacey Brentley, one ofthe, uh, teen concierges who's
23.
So the teens are sometimes alittle intimidated by the
regular concierge.
said Ms.
Brentley, who is one of theconcierges, um.
She tries to be more casualGreeting teenagers with, how's
it going?
Instead of, may I help you?
(03:16):
Mm-hmm.
Um, Ms.
Brenley said she's surprisedthat many ask about comedy
clubs, jazz clubs, or the bestsushi.
Their tastes are a lot moremature than I would remember.
Mark (03:24):
I remember spending 12 hours in the Louvre with my dad
as a kid.
Oh God.
And just thinking, oh golly,please don't show me another
statue, not another painting.
Francis (03:33):
I I, no, no offense to your dad, but your dad, from
what you tell me about yourgreat vacations was one of those
like Chevy Chase vacationguests.
Oh yeah.
Monday, Paris, Tuesday, London,Wednesday, Brussels, back home
again.
Mark (03:42):
Sprinting through the Louvre.
'cause you had to go throughevery corridor of the Louvre.
Oh my
Francis (03:46):
God.
Yeah.
I just hate that.
I not that, that, that hasnothing to do with being a
teenager, my friend.
That was fun.
but I glad I did it.
How's that?
I, I think it's, I think it'sgreat.
Um.
As long as I didn't have to doit.
but I think this idea of the,the concierge for teenagers is a
very interesting idea.
I think it's commendable and Ithink that, um, I think that one
of the things that's interestingthough is when, when you travel
(04:07):
with your family to travel trulytogether.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I, I don't liketelevision on.
During a family meal.
I know a lot of Americans eat infront of the tv.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and unfortunately the wayour schedules work is a lot of
Americans don't eat togetheranymore.
Right.
Our kids, you know, the one guybefore soccer practice and then
your daughter after balletclass, and then you have to get
(04:28):
on the,
Mark (04:29):
or you work at a restaurant and you're not home
for dinner frequently.
Yeah.
But restaurateurs always hadthat problem.
Francis (04:33):
Right.
Mark (04:34):
But, but everybody else
Francis (04:35):
has
Mark (04:35):
a problem now.
But, but I love, I mean, there'sno TV in the kitchen or the
dining room in my house.
Right.
And we, we just eat at the tableand.
Right.
That's where we share our mealsand share our, what's either
gonna happen for the day, forbreakfast or what happened for
the day at, at dinner.
Francis (04:49):
I think though that what, what the concierges point
to, and a couple of theconcierges in this article point
to.
The difference in taste of ateenager and I think a reason to
have a concierge, if you'regonna be somewhere for a week or
two, you don't wanna spend everyminute together.
And you know, some 17 year oldswanna just hang around and play
video games.
Mm-hmm.
Some 17 year olds is six, wannago on an adventure and some
wanna do kitty things and somewant to go, you know, have
(05:11):
sushi.
And I think that that, you know,it's a pretty.
Interesting time and, uh, to,and, and it's interesting to, to
plan mm-hmm.
For that kid.
And I think it's great to havethat,
Mark (05:20):
I realize that, that the concierge and, whether you're in
a hotel or a little bed andbreakfast is such a valuable
person for, because you'retraveling in a new city and
maybe you have a, a let's gobook or, or right.
What have you.
But the concierge knows, but.
The person sitting at that deskknows what's going on in their
city, knows what's going on.
Certainly within a few blocksof, of wherever you are within
(05:40):
walking distance of, of what'shot, of what just happened, of
what's going on, of what show isgoing.
Francis (05:46):
And the concierge can also work a little magic.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, we were in, uh, I wasin, we were, I was in, when I
was in Ireland, I stayed withsome relatives, but my sister
and niece spent, um, a couple ofdays in Dublin.
Speaker 9 (05:55):
Mm-hmm.
Francis (05:56):
Check this out.
They're in Dublin.
Like I, I wish this happened tome when I was 17.
I was gonna seaside heightshanging out at the boardwalk.
Uh, so my, my niece is in Dublinwith my sister and it turns out
there's a U2 concert on Saturdaynight.
Nice.
You know, for the U2, the IrishBand.
Mm-hmm.
In Ireland, in Dublin, right?
Yeah.
This concert has been sold outforever.
Every hotel room in the city isbooked up.
(06:17):
We, my sister booked a year inadvance.
the concierge.
Got my niece tickets to see twoin double.
But you know, the concierge saidthey have the connection.
That's what they're paid for.
That's their job.
You could not have gotten aticket to see YouTube.
Mark (06:28):
You're right, you're right.
Well, it's funny, even when wego to California, we, we
frequently stay at a placecalled Brookside Ranch.
A woman by the name of SusanRidley.
Mm-hmm.
Who, uh, her has a littleproperty, three bedrooms, three
bedroom, bed, breakfast righton, on her vineyard, and Susan
knows.
Everything that's happening.
Well, she's connected to thelocal dinner in Napa Valley.
She knows everything that'shappening.
(06:48):
So you wanna know about that newrestaurant?
You wanna know about that newvineyard that's just opened?
You wanna know where the, wherethe, the cool tour is.
You want her to set you up with,that wine maker that only takes
appointments.
Well, she's, I mean, it's just,it's really a big benefit to
have somebody there who's in theknow and
Francis (07:05):
who's connected.
But one of the things that'svery interesting is you hear,
mark and I talk about all thetime on this show, we talk
about.
Being part of the localcommunity, eating locally, going
to the local places, supportinglocal small businesses, and
that's what's most exciting inany community if you tra if
you're traveling just based onsome guidebook.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and only on that, you arereally not gonna be able to as
(07:27):
fully participate in the area asif when you go to a, a hotel
with a great concierge or asmall bed and breakfast with
somebody who really knows thearea.
Right.
the thing about Susan Ridley isshe's connected with what's
going on in California on a veryfundamental way and in a way
that you can't be.
So, you know, it's sort of likethe opposite of what your dad
did when, mm-hmm.
The way that your dad traveledwhen you were younger.
(07:47):
I'm sure he does it differentlynow.
I.
But to be a tourist is to tour.
Mm-hmm.
And to like see things as you goby to not really have solid
plans set in stone and show upsomewhere and maybe have a
reservation or two if you havethe luxury of doing that and
show up in a city and say, okay,concierge, where should I go?
What should I see?
And.
Have the flexibility.
(08:07):
Right.
You wander, you flexible.
I like
Mark (08:09):
having a framework of what I'm gonna be doing while I'm
there.
Mm-hmm.
But at the same time, ifsomething comes up that's,
that's, you know, moreinteresting or more exciting,
I'm totally willing to changeplans.
You gotta
Francis (08:19):
wander.
And we have a gentleman who'sgonna join us in the next
segment of the show who's anexpert on wandering and eating
well while you wander.
Michael Stern.
Uh, has published Road Food, aguide to some of the best road
food in America, and he'll bejoining us in just a moment to
talk about where to get goodeats all across the country.
Hey, you're back with therestaurant guys, mark Pascal and
Francis.
Shot from Stage Left Restaurantin New Brunswick.
And today we'd like to welcomeas our guest, Michael Stern, who
(08:41):
together with his wife, Jane,publishes road food, a coast to
coast guide to 600 of the bestbarbecue joints, lobster shacks,
ice cream parlors, highwaydiners in the country.
Jane and Michael have eaten inevery single one of these 600
roadside joints in their book.
Uh, from New Jersey toCalifornia and from Vermont to
Texas.
People Magazine calls theirguide an invaluable cross
country culinary guide thatshould be stashed in every food
(09:02):
lover's glove compartment.
And you can find out how toorder one for your own glove
compartment on our website lateron.
Today they've written more than30 books about America and their
road food column for GourmetMagazine.
Has won three coveted JamesBeard Awards.
They also review books for theNew York Times and they operate
road food.com, an onlineinteractive community of road
food, food warriors, andrestaurateurs.
(09:23):
That's really fabulous with allthat behind us.
Hi Michael.
Hi.
Speaker 9 (09:27):
How you
Mark (09:27):
doing?
Welcome to the show, Michael.
Francis (09:29):
I
Mark (09:29):
sound wonderful.
Francis (09:30):
Don't you sound great.
You're a genius.
Guy (09:32):
I can't
Francis (09:33):
believe it.
Yeah.
Alright, Michael, so you have,written about a lot of things
and you have a real expertise onfood and of all the foods in the
world.
Why road food?
Guy (09:43):
Oh,
Francis (09:43):
it's
Guy (09:43):
the best.
Mark (09:44):
Okay.
That's why you, you know thatthere's a bunch of people out
there thinking road food.
They're thinking squirrels thatyou ran over.
I
Guy (09:50):
know.
That's road still.
No.
The thing it, it, I meanhonestly, I believe in Jane and
I believe that America's.
Best food is road food.
I mean, not that there aren'tsome great chefs in this country
doing fabulous.
Well,
Mark (10:05):
we're pretty glad you said that because there are seven
French chefs listening to thisshow, sharpening
Francis (10:08):
their knives right now.
Guy (10:10):
Killed that there is some great upscale food in this
country.
Uhhuh much more than there everused to be.
However, you know, we see food,it's almost like.
Folk art.
Speaker 9 (10:19):
Mm-hmm.
I mean,
Guy (10:19):
if you really wanna get a sense of what this country is
like, what people are thinkingand doing in their hometowns, I
mean the, one of the best waysto do it is to sit down in a
town cafe or a truck stop, or adiner somewhere, and eat
alongside the locals and eatwhat the locals eat.
I mean, for us, it's more thanjust.
Food.
It's, it's just a real way oftasting this country in every
(10:40):
way.
Mark (10:40):
while it's fun to talk about the highbrow restaurants
and the types of restaurantsthat, that Francis and I eat,
get to eat in a lot and, own, inreality most of the country,
most of the time, most of thetime.
It, our, ourselves included.
Yep.
Are eating in in restaurantsmore like the ones you write
about?
Guy (10:56):
Well, I think so.
And you know, the fact is thekind, you know, the, the really
fine dining restaurant is formost people a kind of special
occasion thing.
Sure,
Mark (11:05):
sure.
Absolutely.
Of course.
Guy (11:06):
you know, it's the weekend, it's a big date, it's an animal,
whatever, or, or maybe you'rejust somebody who loves that
kind of food.
The kind of places we writeabout are.
Sort of everyday things.
It's like the difference betweenclassical music and folk music.
Mm-hmm.
You know, um, the kind of foodwe write about at its very best
is like kind of it's folk art.
Our originality Right.
Is not a prized quality of mostroad food.
Francis (11:27):
you remind me in, in the way that you write about
food, and we'll talk about thefood you write about and also
the way you write about it.
Your guide is very interesting.
It's no, you know, zago surveywith just a, a quick little,
snippet and some scores andpoints, the way you write about
food and talk about food onlinein your columns and in your
books.
you remind me a lot of, uh,you're sort of in the spirit of
Calvin Trillin.
Guy (11:45):
Yeah, well, he's a fellow traveler.
I he started a little bit beforewe did.
I mean, he was writing, youknow, for the New Yorker about
places like Kansas City, ArthurBryant's back in the, um, early
seventies when, when we just hadthe glimmer of an idea that,
that this country needed a bookcalled Road Food.
Um, you know, back, it's hard toremember in fact, you know, some
(12:07):
30 years ago how, um, I don'twant to say backward, but how,
how less.
Interest there was in food atevery level in this country.
Francis (12:16):
You know, Calvin Trillin used to write about when
he would, we know, write, hewrote about a lot of things when
he, but everyone knew that hewas a, a food writer and used to
write about great food inAmerica.
in a book called The TummyTrilogy, I think it was.
He, he writes about, he said,uh, so I would always show up in
some small town in the Midwest,in the mayor or somebody of
importance would meet me at theairport and say, oh, Mr.
Trilling, we're so glad you'rehere.
We have a fabulous Frenchrestaurant in town.
Right?
And he was always tempted torespond.
No you don't.
(12:37):
Yeah,
Guy (12:37):
exactly.
And he also, I also rememberhis, his comment about how a lot
of these restaurants boastedthat they served continental
cuisine and he often wonderedwhich continent was amped tica
because so much of it startedfrozen.
Right, right.
Francis (12:52):
That's good.
Well, and then he would ofcourse try and ditch that local
person trying to steer him tothe French restaurant and go
find a local barbecue joint.
Is that your philosophy as well?
Guy (12:59):
Without a doubt.
And the, one of the great thingsabout, what has happened over
the last.
Two or three decades is that Ithink more and more people are
recognizing that their localbarbecue parlor, catfish place,
lobster Roll Shack, you know,whatever it might be, is really
worthwhile interest and special.
Special in its own way.
(13:19):
It's special in its own way and,and in some ways, you know, I
think a lot of people, forexample, they grow up in a
particular town or region andare so accustomed to whatever
their local.
Specialty is, you know, I grewup in Chicago and I grew
accustomed to great, um, Italiandeep sandwiches, which is a real
Chicago thing.
You don't find it anywhere else.
It was only when I moved awayfrom Chicago that I, I realized,
(13:42):
man, this is a local specialtybecause he's kind of take it for
granted.
Francis (13:45):
Mm-hmm.
Don't you find that the localspecialties are under assault?
As you know, everyone ontelevision started to lose their
accent and, and we all start toeat in Olive Garden wherever we
are in the country.
Guy (13:54):
Oh, I know.
Well, that's a con, you know,I'll tell you can get really
depressed when you think aboutthe onslaught of the, of the big
chains.
However, I have to say that whenJane and I.
Put together the first editionof Road Food back in the
seventies.
We honestly believed we weredocumenting the end of an era
that, that, that by the year2000 there, there would only be
(14:15):
the really upscale restaurantsfor people with a lot of money
and good taste and the, and thechange
Speaker 9 (14:21):
right of Taco Bell.
Guy (14:21):
And Yeah.
But that really hasn't happened.
Well, I mean, you know, Jane andI have seen a lot of great
restaurants get kind of muscledout of business.
Speaker 9 (14:29):
Mm-hmm.
You know,
Guy (14:30):
great mom and pop restaurants, Uhhuh get muscled
out because, you know, A-T-G-I-For whatever moves into town.
But the fact is that because weAmericans have become more
appreciative of our localcuisine, I think a lot of it is
holding on where it might nothave held on 20, 30, 40 years
ago.
Mark (14:46):
Do do you think it's actually swinging back the other
way?
Or do you think that thatMcDonald's and those places are,
are continuing to take it?
Guy (14:51):
Well, deeper roots, you know, there, there's no stopping
the franchises.
I mean, they've got the money,they've got the muscle.
How, however, I've seen a lot ofexamples.
You know, I haven't taken asurvey, but I've seen a lot of
examples of, of wonderful, oneof a kind local restaurants.
Actually getting passed on to anew generation.
Francis (15:10):
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
And that's something that we as,as restaurant owners and, uh,
consultants for smallrestaurants, love to see.
We're here talking with authorMichael Stern and we're talking
about his book Road Food.
And we'll be talking more aboutwhere you can get great, great
road food across the country andright here in New Jersey.
In just a moment.
one of the things we talk aboutin Jersey all the time is I sat
on the board of directors forthe New Jersey Restaurant
Association for many years andwhenever we would get involved
(15:32):
in the National RestaurantAssociation,'cause there's an
affiliation between the stateassociations and the National
New Jersey RestaurantAssociation was always these
little mom and pops dominatedthe board and dominated our
membership.
Mm-hmm.
But in most other states it wasMcDonald's, burger King,
Kentucky Fried Chicken, Boston,you know, let us entertain you,
be our guest.
These big, big groups is the momand pop more found in the
(15:53):
Northeast?
Or where, where do we find moremom and pops?
Where do we find more chains?
Guy (15:56):
Well, that's, and that's an interesting question because in
fact, you know, road food, somepeople will complain about our
book because we have, you know,we might have like 30
restaurants listed in New Jerseyand three in North Dakota.
Speaker 9 (16:09):
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Guy (16:10):
Um, and that's, you know.
Great road food is really areflection of the population and
in places, you know, like thenortheast, you know, New Jersey,
New York, Connecticut, even upinto Maine or places like the,
the, the Gulf Coast, you know,the deep south, um, new Orleans.
You find this, these kind ofreally, um.
Heterogeneous populations
Speaker 9 (16:31):
mm-hmm.
Guy (16:31):
That lend themselves to just great food.
You know, some of those kind of,uh, Italian American, you know,
French American, whatever slashAmerican cuisines as well as
cuisines that have developedhere, indigenously places where
there are.
Strong concentrations ofpopulation.
You find tons of excellent roadfood.
Francis (16:49):
Well, there are 37 people in South Dakota.
I mean, how many restaurants canthey support?
Exactly.
It just
Guy (16:53):
doesn't make sense for, you know, a great, wonderful mom and
pop restaurant to exist in everylittle town in South Dakota,
however, you know, in New Jerseyor southern Louisiana for us to
find great road food.
It's like, you know, shootingfish in a barrel,
Francis (17:05):
Uhhuh.
Well, you know, it's funny, Itraveled across.
I, I have a motorcycle andsometimes I'll, head out Midwest
and I like to ride on the BlueHighways and, and I didn't have
your book the last time I didit, and so I'll have to have
your book in my saddlebags nexttime I go.
But I, I would often find myselftraveling in like the, the West
Virginia area in like border ofthe Midwest and the south.
I, I just
Mark (17:23):
went, I just actually just went through West Virginia last
week
Francis (17:25):
and boy, is your book necessary?
'cause out there, it's notshooting fish in a barrel.
It was like, it's
Mark (17:29):
Waffle House,
Francis (17:30):
Kentucky Fried Chicken,
Mark (17:31):
McDonald's, burger King.
There's
Francis (17:32):
actually, I mean, the worst abomination is held in the
name of this chain.
The Eaton Park.
Oh, great.
Do you, have you ever heard ofthe Eaton Park?
No.
No, I haven't.
Just didn't walk inside.
But I thought
Mark (17:43):
that is just where we're going.
But literally, I, I was goingthrough at West Virginia just
last week, like I said, almostseven and literally every exit.
Has a McDonald's,
Guy (17:53):
there's nothing to eat.
Well see, West Virginia is atricky one.
Mm-hmm.
Because some of the greatspecialties in West Virginia,
the road food type specialtiesare oddly enough not found in
restaurants.
They're found in the mostunlikely like convenience
stores.
Right.
And
Mark (18:07):
bakeries.
You know, it's funny that yousay that'cause we stopped in a
town'cause the baby wasscreaming, stopped in a little
town and I refused to go to oneof the chains.
And so we went to one of these,what looked like a little
convenience store place.
And they were serving deliciousfried chicken and uh, you know,
you could buy a bottle of waterfor the road or whatever, but,
but it, it had little tablesinside of it.
(18:28):
Really unique place, I thought.
Yeah.
Well
Guy (18:30):
that, that's one of the tricks of, of, of road food in,
in some places, is that it,they're not, it's not served in
what you would imagine, youknow, the classical small town
cafe with the little calicocurtains.
I mean, in, in West Virginia,for example, one of the great
specialties there.
We didn't know about this foryears.
Mm-hmm.
Francis (18:46):
Because
Speaker 9 (18:46):
we
Guy (18:46):
just didn't know to look for it, is what they call the
pepperoni roll.
Francis (18:50):
And we're gonna find more about the pepperoni roll
when we come back after thenews.
You're listening to theRestaurant Guys, before the
news, you were talking to usabout a specialty that West
Virginia is known for.
Guy (19:01):
Yes, it's uh, it's known primarily only the West
Virginians who live therebecause it hasn't traveled far.
It's called the pepperoni roll,which is something that I think
we, in the northeast, knowinggreat Italian food like we do,
can appreciate it was actuallyinvented.
Back in the 1920s at a localbakery as a food that miners
could take, eat into the mineswith them easily.
(19:21):
Sort of like the past, the upand the upper peninsula of
Michigan.
What it is is like a pizza likedough wrapped around pepperoni
sticks that is then baked.
And what happens, it's reallydelicious, is that the pepperoni
sticks have enough oil in
Speaker 9 (19:35):
them mm-hmm.
Guy (19:35):
That the oil kind of saturates the dough.
Mark (19:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (19:38):
Um,
Guy (19:39):
and you know, you and these are, they're portable.
They're absolutely delicious.
Some recipe
Mark (19:43):
sounds horrible for you.
And spectacular.
Guy (19:45):
Yeah.
Well, what food isn't, I mean,what worthwhile food is
Francis (19:49):
now.
Now, how do you eat this?
Do you like eat it like alollipop or do you slice it and
eat it?
Guy (19:53):
No.
Well, that's, it's in theconvenience stores that serve it
and bakeries.
You just eat it like a lollipop,you know, just chow down on it.
Mm-hmm.
Like you would a roll thathappens to have this thing
inside.
There are a few places thatserve it on a plate topped with
sauce, so it becomes almost likewhat we might call a calzone,
you know?
Mm-hmm.
That's
Francis (20:10):
a meat stick.
Yeah, it's just a meat stick.
How glorious is
Guy (20:14):
that?
Yeah.
Meat and bread, you know, withsome.
Sauce on it.
I'm happy.
Mark (20:19):
So what other regional specialties are, let's start
with the Northeast.
What other regional specialtiesare there?
Guy (20:23):
Well, for example, uh, you know, if you're traveling along
the coast of Maine, you want alobster roll.
Speaker 9 (20:27):
Mm-hmm.
I mean,
Guy (20:28):
we just did that.
Uh, actually I'm saying that'cause we just did it a few
weeks ago and boy, the lobsterrolls you get at places like
red's eats in Wi Gasset or theclam shack in kind of bun port
are so spectacularly good.
I mean, it's the meat of over,of more than the meat from a
whole one pound lobster.
Piled into a bun and drizzledwith melted butter.
(20:49):
That's all.
What's better than that?
Now?
Mark (20:51):
What more do you need now?
Francis (20:52):
Let me, now, let me ask you, when, when you find places
that are sort of remote from theregion or some places that do
the.
The weak imitation.
What, what, what do they dowrong?
Let's say, let's talk about thelobster roll or the Philly
cheese
Mark (21:03):
steak, or, yeah.
Guy (21:04):
Well, you know, there are all kinds of things they can do
wrong.
I mean, the thing about a a, agreat lobster roll is that that
meat has been picked out of alobster within.
Mo minutes, uhhuh of it beingput in the bun
Mark (21:15):
as opposed to coming in a frozen bag to Bennigan's.
I,
Guy (21:17):
we once went to a restaurant in, it was in, um, in
northern Michigan and they hadsome lobster dish on the menu
and we thought, you know, youknow, Michigan is not the place
you're gonna order a lobster.
Right?
But we had to ask, we asked thewaitress, we said, is this
lobster fresh?
And the waitress said, oh yes, Ijust saw the chef open the can
Francis (21:36):
that's.
And that's when you said, youknow what?
My wife is feeling Ill, can wehave a check?
You know what my fa you know,that brings me to like, you
know, corporate agribusiness hasall these ways to fool you into
thinking you're, you're eatingsomething that you're not or
you're not eating something thatyou are.
My favorite line is if you gointo the supermarket aisles,
you'll see fresh, frozen.
What does that mean?
Well, it means that it was freshwhen they froze it, but it's not
(21:57):
anymore that, as opposed to thepeople who let things rock as
opposed a spoiled frozen.
Exactly.
Yeah.
That's Everything was fresh.
Once everybody, you know, it's abroken clock, right?
Twice a day.
Well, one of our favoriteregional American foods and that
you write about pretty widely inyour book is, is barbecue.
Yeah.
I think that's one of the mostfascinating, uniquely American
(22:18):
foods.
Can you talk to us aboutbarbecue?
Guy (22:20):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, we could have donean entire book.
Devoted only to barbecue.
I be.
Just because there are so manydifferent regional variations of
barbecue.
Mm-hmm.
You know what the basic one, ofcourse being, you know, in Texas
you get beef.
In the Carolinas you get pork,but then in, you know, western
Kentucky, you get mutton.
Speaker 9 (22:38):
Right.
And what
Guy (22:39):
kind of wood is it smoked over?
Mm-hmm.
And does it have sauce?
And if it does have sauce, whatkind of sauce?
And is it a mustard sauce?
Is it, is it tomato sauce?
Is it vinegar sauce?
Is it just in a kind of a juicefrom the beef?
You know, the varieties areendless.
Not to mention.
All the requisite side dishes incertain areas.
You know, like in some placesit's hush puppies.
(22:59):
In other places it's just astack of sunbeam white bread.
Francis (23:02):
Does anybody anywhere make good bread that goes with
barbecue?
That's always my disappointment.
Guy (23:07):
Well, I've had barbecue served on excellent rolls, and
let me tell you, it wasextremely confusing to my pal.
In some ways, I, I have come tobelieve that bad bread.
It's, it's, it's there to sop upsauce and if it has a taste and
texture of its own, it gets,it's confused,
Speaker 9 (23:29):
gets in the way.
You're right.
Guy (23:29):
I mean, good, excellent barbecue and excellent bread
are, are two things that areseldom if ever found together on
a plate.
Mark (23:37):
I think that that one of the things that, that.
Lends barbecue to, to being soregionally, uh, different and,
and people putting so much heartand soul into it is it takes so
long.
Great barbecue takes 12 hours,24 hours, 36 hours sometimes to,
to create.
So people are putting theirheart and soul into barbecue and
(23:58):
which, which I think in turnyou, you have people taking a
little more care to make it.
Guy (24:03):
You're absolutely right.
Barbecue requires a kind ofdevotion that by definition is
gonna create something special.
Um, it's not unless you, you usethat everybody's favorite liquid
smoke, that flavor.
Um, it does take time.
And, and you know, Jane and I infact developed a whole theory
of, It's the pigs plus Jesustheory of barbecue that when
(24:24):
you're in the deep south, if yougo into a barbecue parlor and
see a lot of religiousiconography on the wall, chances
are very good.
The barbecue is gonna beexcellent
Speaker 9 (24:34):
cause there's a similarity.
And I'm not
Guy (24:35):
trying to be smart about, there's a real similarity
between devotion
Speaker 9 (24:40):
uhhuh
Guy (24:40):
to one's faith and devotion to barbecue.
It takes time.
Barbecue is a
Speaker 9 (24:44):
faith man.
Mark (24:45):
It
Guy (24:45):
is.
Yeah.
There you go.
Francis (24:46):
one of the things that's very interesting about
barbecue is we talk all the timeabout how America, at least in,
in a lot of parts of America,are getting increasingly good
taste.
the rise of the celebrity chefand the TV food channel and all
the cooking shows on tv, I thinkis, is lending to America having
increasingly good taste but oneof the areas that people have
always had good taste and beenreally passionate about what
(25:08):
they like and what they don't.
When people get into argumentsabout is.
You know,
Guy (25:13):
well, you're right.
And that, and that's a rarity.
I mean, because I think you'reabsolutely on the ball when you
say that.
I don't think it's even goingtoo far to say that we've had a
kind of culinary renaissance inthis country over the last 20,
30, 40 years.
Francis (25:24):
I don't think that's an exaggeration at all.
No, I agree.
I
Guy (25:26):
think because when you think what it was like, I mean,
I'm old enough to remember whatit was like in the early
seventies.
I mean, it was a sad scene interms of finding good food at
any level, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Uhhuh, um, it was tough, and Ithink there is a renaissance,
but you're right, there are somefoods, I mean, I think.
Barbecue is one.
Chili is another one you couldstart a civil war
Mark (25:44):
over.
Right?
Well isn't that what the CivilWar was started over?
Yeah.
Guy (25:47):
Could be.
Francis (25:48):
Now you, now you have 600 restaurants in your guide.
You've eaten at each of theserestaurants.
Guy (25:53):
Well, we've eaten at probably 6,000 to find those
600.
I mean, you're
Francis (25:57):
a busy guy.
Well, you know, we,
Speaker 9 (25:59):
you must be very fat
Guy (26:03):
six restaurants that we like best, and you find one
that's worth recommending.
You've got eat in at least ahandful of ones that are maybe
just okay or worse.
Francis (26:13):
Mm-hmm.
Guy (26:14):
Do you spend all your time on the road?
Uh, about half maybe.
Francis (26:17):
And you just go from place to place and we eat?
Yes.
And will we blessed
Guy (26:20):
with excellent appetite.
Will you do two lunches a day?
Francis (26:23):
Will you do two lunches a day?
Two?
No.
I mean, we will
Guy (26:28):
on a really good day.
And if we're in a place that isroad Food rich
Speaker 9 (26:32):
Uhhuh,
Guy (26:33):
um, we might.
Go into a 10, 12 restaurants.
Speaker 9 (26:37):
Oh my God.
Which
Guy (26:37):
isn't say we're gonna have 10 or 12 full meals, you know?
Right.
Because we have to be able toorder something.
And if it tastes only mediocre,just, you know, appetite.
Push
Francis (26:45):
it aside.
Your book, I, I alluded toearlier that it's not as a got
survey.
It doesn't say visit this place.
Mm-hmm.
26 points.
People say, uh, have the ham,you know, it's, it's, you write.
Little stories about each ofthese restaurants really.
And, and what do you, what doyou do that's differently?
How would you classify yourunique way of reviewing these
places?
Guy (27:05):
Well, as I said earlier, for, for Jane and me, what we're
looking for is not onlydelicious food, but.
An experience.
Mm-hmm.
Um, that kind, that sings of itsplace and region.
So that means we wanna knowabout how the food is presented
to you, how you get it.
You know, some places you standat the counter and you take a
number.
(27:26):
Mm-hmm.
Other places it's dished out bya by a rude waitress, you know?
Whatever, you know, the wholeexperience of getting the food
is important to us, including,you know, accents.
So how do the people speak?
What are the, what's theirslang,
Speaker 9 (27:38):
uh,
Guy (27:38):
particular kind of food?
So when we write about arestaurant, it's really crucial
for us to not just say, here'swhat you get on a plate, but
here's what's gonna happen whenyou walk in the door, or maybe
even when you come into thistown.
Speaker 9 (27:49):
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Guy (27:50):
and that's what we're trying to capture when we write
about these places.
Mark (27:53):
So do you only, do you only write about.
The the places that make it toyour column or to your, to your
book.
So those are, those are placesthat you're recommending.
You've already weeded out theones that you don't recommend?
Guy (28:03):
Yeah.
It's our feeling that nobodyneeds, and in fact, nobody would
buy a book that was a guide toall the places we really didn't
like eating.
Oh.
Places to avoid Traveled aroundthe country.
Mark (28:14):
I actually might buy a book of places to avoid,
although I think you could do ashort book of very
Francis (28:18):
funny anter reviews or a little appendix at the back of
how the horrible Places you'vebeen.
What is the, what is the what?
Have you had any like trulycomical experiences of, of just,
oh my God, get me outta here.
Guy (28:29):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
We have had some, um, you know,really hideous food.
Simply because, you know, thecook or chef made some terrible
mistakes.
I mean, I remember an omeletthat we got in Oklahoma once
that was really the texture of aMichelin tire.
Um,
Speaker 9 (28:43):
I think, you know, I don't,
Guy (28:44):
you know, stuff like that happens all the time.
But the really funny stuff iswhat happens when, when what we
are served is exactly the wayit's supposed to be.
Francis (28:53):
Like, give us an example.
Guy (28:54):
Well, for example, chitlins steamed in vinegar.
Francis (28:56):
Oh, now
Guy (28:58):
you know, a fried chi is, you know, that I can take or
leave chitlin steamed invinegar.
Imagine the.
Of this dish.
Have you ever Well, it's down insouthern Virginia.
This is a favorite in a lot ofrestaurants.
Mark (29:11):
Okay.
You talked about the pepperoniroll.
I was hungry.
You've cured that problem.
Francis (29:15):
Have you ever had snoot?
Oh yeah.
Now
Guy (29:18):
s Snoop's pretty good.
Francis (29:19):
Oh, come on.
No, is I'm returning your bookright now.
Guy (29:23):
In St.
Louis, we had, there's a placecalled C and k Barbecue Uhhuh in
St.
Louis, Missouri, where weavoided Snoots for many years.
Finally, we decided we'd bebrave.
We'd order them, and I.
Like a pig snout on a plate.
Uhhuh.
In fact, it's not, it's likestrips of meat.
It's sort of like coochieFritos.
It's
Francis (29:38):
it's strips of me taken from the pig snout on the plate.
Yeah.
Guy (29:42):
You don't deny this, but you know what's worse than
snoots?
I mean, if snus are bad, Ithought, well, since I enjoyed
snoots a little bit, maybe Ishould order pig ear, which was
also on the menu.
Speaker 9 (29:51):
Yeah, yeah.
Guy (29:52):
What I got was literally one pig ear.
That's that's how they
Mark (29:56):
serve
Guy (29:57):
two pieces of bread.
Mark (29:58):
They're really served that way.
They really actually serve you.
Pig.
Okay.
I'll take the
Francis (30:01):
Silk purse everybody.
We'll leave the pigs here.
You know, it's funny, we did ashow from the, uh, Big Apple
Barbecue Festival.
Mm-hmm.
And we interviewed a woman whoserved me s Snoop for the first
time.
And I got her on the radio and Iswear she said to me, I'm gonna
win a James Beard Award forthis.
She was great.
She
Speaker 9 (30:15):
said,
Francis (30:16):
he said, now she explained it to me and I was
sort of incredulous as to whatit was.
It was the posterior of the noseof the, and I said.
You eat that?
And she said, we serve it allfrom the router to the Tudor.
I thought I neither want therouter nor the Tudor.
I'll just take the thing in themiddle.
The middle.
I would like the middle.
(30:36):
Please call me a snob if youwant.
So what about New Jersey, man?
You've written about New Jerseyand everything in New Jersey.
You write about's a hotdog.
Guy (30:44):
Well, not entirely.
We do write about thesespectacular, hero sandwiches
down at
Speaker 9 (30:50):
the White House.
Wow.
Down in the White House City.
Yeah.
Guy (30:52):
there are a lot of good places to get such sandwiches in
the Delaware Valley, but I, Ireally still think that the best
on Earth are there.
Speaker 9 (31:00):
Mm-hmm.
Um,
Guy (31:00):
and you know, people who think they've eaten one because
they had one in New York.
City or in Hartford?
No, no.
Have no idea what they'retalking about.
You know that's true.
Mark (31:09):
I mean, there are people in this state who drive to To
Atlantic City.
Yeah, well, to gamble.
And then they get a, they
Guy (31:15):
get a it's, and they drown their sorrows.
What happens?
Francis (31:17):
Literally, there's no way I'm leaving Atlantic City
without stopping.
Not, not a chance.
No.
It's one of the greats, youknow.
Well, we're Mark Mark'soriginally from Nutley, which is
in Essex County, New Jersey,which is the county that Newark
is in, and I'm originally fromOrange.
And, um, so all of your likeNewark hotdog Yeah.
Uh, places that you recommend.
Oh yeah.
You really hit the nail on thehead there.
Guy (31:35):
Well, that's one of those local specialties that I think
locals take for granted.
Francis (31:39):
Oh, no.
Guy (31:39):
And we had, we, we didn't even know about them ourselves
until many years ago.
Martha.
Stewart told us, you know, as anative, really?
Oh, she's from Nutley.
She said we, she was the one whorecommended ruts hut to us.
Rut.
Rut hut.
Lemme
Mark (31:49):
tell you, if you're from that region,
Francis (31:51):
oh my God, yeah.
Ruts hut is an icon.
Mark and I live 45 minutes awayfrom there when we're down here
in New Brunswick and we woulddrive up to North Jersey for a
hot dog and people say You'redriving 45 minutes for a hot
dog.
You don't understand.
Mark (32:01):
The problem with Ruts hut though, was it closes at like 11
or 12 o'clock and you the timeyou really want a ruts hut dog.
It is about 1:00 AM.
2:00 AM That's
Guy (32:09):
a long night.
It's a killer, pure
Mark (32:11):
method of hot dog eating, right?
Francis (32:12):
You know what else I love about your book?
You really capture ruts hut,which is this dive on 46, where
it's all stainless steel and theguy yells into a microphone to
the short order cook to make youyour fried hot dog.
Yeah.
And you capture lingo, which Igo at ruts you site where they
order twins all the way, whichis two hot dogs with mustard and
relish.
Yes.
My favorite thing when I gothere to order.
Is I order, an two hot dogs andan orange soda because you know
(32:35):
what this short order cook SLlingo for that is no two rippers
and a howdy.
A howdy, Ady, Howie, orangesoda, howdy duty, howdy duty,
orange hair, orange soda.
It took me about a year and ahalf.
That's, I never knew this.
I.
Took me about a year and a halfto figure out what a howdy was.
I don't even like orange soda.
I just like hearing them saythat in the microphone.
Guy (32:53):
Well, see, that's my point is that the whole experience of
eating there, I mean, it's partof why that hot dog is so
delicious.
Francis (32:59):
You got it.
Mark (32:59):
But Michael, what I.
What we wanna talk to you alittle bit now is your, your
website, road food.com,
Guy (33:04):
Well, I, I tell you, it kind of grew it, it's one of
those things we started severalyears ago.
I mean, I, I don't have theexpertise to do it, but a, a
good, uh, a.
Fan named Steven Rushmore, who'sa computer expert, started it
and it's grown tremendously.
We have these forums for, fornot only people who like to eat
in restaurants, but forrestaurateurs as well.
Mark (33:24):
I, I saw the, the, the restaurant professionals
section.
It was very good.
Guy (33:27):
Yeah.
And, and, and what I love aboutit is that, um, you know, as
good as Jane and my appetitesare, we can't eat everything all
the time, but road food.com hasa way for.
Uh, you know, people who use thesite can submit their own
reviews in places.
Francis (33:41):
Mm-hmm.
Now, do you edit those at alland say, oh no, that's crap.
I'm not putting that up there.
We
Guy (33:44):
have somebody who does that, who's like a real road
food connoisseur who not onlyedits them, but figures out
which ones are, um, written bythe restaurant owner themselves.
Speaker 9 (33:55):
Um,
Guy (33:55):
so they, they are kind of screened, we don't want to post
just.
Junk.
But I mean, I just think it'swonderful that it's open to
appetites all over the country,
Speaker 9 (34:04):
right?
Guy (34:04):
To, um, you know, to post reviews of places that real road
food fans ought to know about.
Francis (34:09):
Well, and, and you have on the website, you, you know,
you only list six or sevenplaces.
Uh, for New Jersey for example.
On in your book, which youvisited personally, but there
are 18 places listed on yourwebsite and then, and it's
really amazing the detail youget if you click on these places
names.
Like if you click on Ruts Hutand you get a picture of Ruts
Hut, you get a sample menu fromRuts Hut.
Yeah.
Very interesting.
Okay, hold on, on, hold
Mark (34:29):
on, hold on.
All right.
Ruts Hut doesn't really have amenu.
It's very short.
Francis (34:33):
It's very, very short.
They
Guy (34:35):
have that.
That, that room where you canactually go and sit down.
They actually do have a sit down
Mark (34:38):
place, but, but nobody I know has ever actually been in
that room.
It
Guy (34:41):
looks interesting.
Francis (34:44):
I have plug for being a Jersey guy.
Right across from Jimmy Bus inWest Orange, two blocks away,
there's a place called the StarTavern for pizza.
Ooh.
Best pizza in New Jersey.
Oh, it is not.
New
Guy (34:53):
Jersey has some excellent pizza too.
Francis (34:55):
Yeah.
There's no pizza in your book onJersey.
Guy (34:57):
I know.
We have to go to Lorenzo's inNewark.
People have been, have beenkilling it.
Uh, it's, I haven't done That's
Francis (35:01):
good.
I say Star Tavern in Star.
Really?
And it's in Orange, right acrossthe West Orange barter.
It's two blocks from JimmyBuffet.
Off the air,
Mark (35:07):
off the air.
We'll give you some moresuggestions.
Okay.
Francis (35:09):
Hey, we wanna thank you for taking the time to join us,
Michael.
Guy (35:11):
Pleasure.
Thanks.
Francis (35:12):
Thanks so much.
It's been terrific and we'regonna put your link you up to
our website so people can findyou through us.
And your book is justinvaluable.
It's really great and I'm gonnastick it in my saddle bags for
the next time I go on a littlemotorcycle.
It's in my glove box
Mark (35:22):
as we speak.
Francis (35:22):
Alright, thanks.
Alright, take care Michael.
Bye-bye.
Have a great day.
Thanks.
(35:49):
What an interesting fellow.
What a great book.
Michael Stern, who publishesRoad Food and Road food.com,
writes for Gorman Magazine, andhe writes about other stuff too.
It's not just, uh, about food.
He's writing 30 books aboutAmerica in general.
Mark (36:02):
But the reality is every single one of us spends time on
the road driving from place toplace.
And the choices, if you don'thave a resource like this, are
fast food or take a chance onsome place that you've never
heard of
Francis (36:14):
and, and there's fast food that you can get that's
actually real.
I mean, we have Tasty Subs, theTasty Subs, the 2D two different
towns are in, what are the twotowns?
Mark (36:21):
one's in Edison, one's up in like South Brunswick,
Francis (36:24):
that's a subs shop.
That locally is really good.
And it's not owned by acorporation.
It's owned by a guy.
Right.
Or Jersey Subs in, uh, newBrunwick Jersey Subs in New
Brunswick is a great place ifyou're in downtown New Brunswick
to go and.
I would always rather go to aplace that's owned by an
individual and take my chancesrather
Mark (36:38):
well.
'cause generally they have alittle bit more invested in it.
Francis (36:41):
Well, I'm Francis Shot.
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurant guys,central Jersey 1450.
Time is 12 noon.
And check out at our website, uh,
www.restaurantguysradio.com.
And you we are also podcastingon iTunes and Podcast Alley and
all those fun internet siteswhere you can subscribe and have
this show sent directly to yourcomputer.
Every day we put one up.
Good
Mark (00:54):
morning, mark.
That'd be really fun.
Yeah, that is really fun.
I have to, you could actuallyprogram it so you wake up in the
morning to us talking to you.
Francis (01:01):
Yeah.
Your wife is hard.
You have to deal, have to dealwith that.
That's all I have to say.
so what's new Mark?
Uh, there's lots of new things.
You know, I was, I was readingthe paper and I was thinking
about your travail, last week toOhio.
To Ohio with the kids in the carand traveling with kids.
Mark (01:17):
Travail is a good word for it,
Francis (01:18):
and I had an, I had an interesting experience not
traveling with kids, but I, Iwent to Ireland in the spring
with my sister and we took my17-year-old niece who's a
charming young woman.
but it's interesting travelingwith the team, adopted.
No genetically related even, butmy, you know, that makes no
difference.
Soul in the family.
but we traveled with my, myniece and it, you know, it
occurred to me, and it alwaysoccurs to me when people come to
(01:39):
New York or New Jersey and they,they're like, oh, show us
around.
And I think.
When you're coming with yourkids, right?
Or you're sending Right.
My nephew to see me.
Okay.
Let's see.
What can I do?
Cigar bar?
No, they don't.
You don't want them to show youthem around, that's for sure.
cause what do I do with my, andI think, all right.
Cigar bar, no martinis, no.
FEO Schwartz.
Come on.
I could do the museum uhhuh.
(02:00):
But I, but so it's, it's, Ithink it's interesting to travel
with teens and, and I sometimeshave to think outside the box
because mm-hmm.
You know, I don't have kids, soI don't usually run in the.
In this, in that circle, in theChucky
Mark (02:10):
cheese circle sounds when the Mars 12, 11,
Francis (02:12):
14, 11, whatever that space age restaurant is in New
York.
But so, you know, I have tothink hard about it when I
travel.
Mm-hmm.
And I must say I'm a greatuncle, so I come up with cool
stuff.
But, um, there is now a growingmovement of having concierges in
hotels for teens.
I think it's
Mark (02:28):
kind of
Francis (02:28):
neat.
I think that's really the
Mark (02:30):
cruise director for your team.
That's
Francis (02:31):
exactly right.
At the, at the Four SeasonsHotel and Resorts in Chicago,
Atlanta, New York, London,Philadelphia, and Toronto.
Um, they have these like youngtwenties mm-hmm.
Concierges that are specificallythere to help teens not be bored
and find something to do.
Mark (02:45):
Well, because they're old enough to, to go and venture out
on their own, but they're notnecessarily old enough to want
to go to the museum with theirparents
Francis (02:55):
or, or, or to go to, you know, or to go to the museum
for a little while.
Mm-hmm.
Not to go to, you know, dinnerat the, the fancy restaurant.
Right.
Maybe they don't wanna do that.
Anyway, Lacey Brentley, one ofthe, uh, teen concierges who's
23.
So the teens are sometimes alittle intimidated by the
regular concierge.
said Ms.
Brentley, who is one of theconcierges, um.
She tries to be more casualGreeting teenagers with, how's
it going?
Instead of, may I help you?
(03:16):
Mm-hmm.
Um, Ms.
Brenley said she's surprisedthat many ask about comedy
clubs, jazz clubs, or the bestsushi.
Their tastes are a lot moremature than I would remember.
Mark (03:24):
I remember spending 12 hours in the Louvre with my dad
as a kid.
Oh God.
And just thinking, oh golly,please don't show me another
statue, not another painting.
Francis (03:33):
I I, no, no offense to your dad, but your dad, from
what you tell me about yourgreat vacations was one of those
like Chevy Chase vacationguests.
Oh yeah.
Monday, Paris, Tuesday, London,Wednesday, Brussels, back home
again.
Mark (03:42):
Sprinting through the Louvre.
'cause you had to go throughevery corridor of the Louvre.
Oh my
Francis (03:46):
God.
Yeah.
I just hate that.
I not that, that, that hasnothing to do with being a
teenager, my friend.
That was fun.
but I glad I did it.
How's that?
I, I think it's, I think it'sgreat.
Um.
As long as I didn't have to doit.
but I think this idea of the,the concierge for teenagers is a
very interesting idea.
I think it's commendable and Ithink that, um, I think that one
of the things that's interestingthough is when, when you travel
(04:07):
with your family to travel trulytogether.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I, I don't liketelevision on.
During a family meal.
I know a lot of Americans eat infront of the tv.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and unfortunately the wayour schedules work is a lot of
Americans don't eat togetheranymore.
Right.
Our kids, you know, the one guybefore soccer practice and then
your daughter after balletclass, and then you have to get
(04:28):
on the,
Mark (04:29):
or you work at a restaurant and you're not home
for dinner frequently.
Yeah.
But restaurateurs always hadthat problem.
Francis (04:33):
Right.
Mark (04:34):
But, but everybody else
Francis (04:35):
has
Mark (04:35):
a problem now.
But, but I love, I mean, there'sno TV in the kitchen or the
dining room in my house.
Right.
And we, we just eat at the tableand.
Right.
That's where we share our mealsand share our, what's either
gonna happen for the day, forbreakfast or what happened for
the day at, at dinner.
Francis (04:49):
I think though that what, what the concierges point
to, and a couple of theconcierges in this article point
to.
The difference in taste of ateenager and I think a reason to
have a concierge, if you'regonna be somewhere for a week or
two, you don't wanna spend everyminute together.
And you know, some 17 year oldswanna just hang around and play
video games.
Mm-hmm.
Some 17 year olds is six, wannago on an adventure and some
wanna do kitty things and somewant to go, you know, have
(05:11):
sushi.
And I think that that, you know,it's a pretty.
Interesting time and, uh, to,and, and it's interesting to, to
plan mm-hmm.
For that kid.
And I think it's great to havethat,
Mark (05:20):
I realize that, that the concierge and, whether you're in
a hotel or a little bed andbreakfast is such a valuable
person for, because you'retraveling in a new city and
maybe you have a, a let's gobook or, or right.
What have you.
But the concierge knows, but.
The person sitting at that deskknows what's going on in their
city, knows what's going on.
Certainly within a few blocksof, of wherever you are within
(05:40):
walking distance of, of what'shot, of what just happened, of
what's going on, of what show isgoing.
Francis (05:46):
And the concierge can also work a little magic.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, we were in, uh, I wasin, we were, I was in, when I
was in Ireland, I stayed withsome relatives, but my sister
and niece spent, um, a couple ofdays in Dublin.
Speaker 9 (05:55):
Mm-hmm.
Francis (05:56):
Check this out.
They're in Dublin.
Like I, I wish this happened tome when I was 17.
I was gonna seaside heightshanging out at the boardwalk.
Uh, so my, my niece is in Dublinwith my sister and it turns out
there's a U2 concert on Saturdaynight.
Nice.
You know, for the U2, the IrishBand.
Mm-hmm.
In Ireland, in Dublin, right?
Yeah.
This concert has been sold outforever.
Every hotel room in the city isbooked up.
(06:17):
We, my sister booked a year inadvance.
the concierge.
Got my niece tickets to see twoin double.
But you know, the concierge saidthey have the connection.
That's what they're paid for.
That's their job.
You could not have gotten aticket to see YouTube.
Mark (06:28):
You're right, you're right.
Well, it's funny, even when wego to California, we, we
frequently stay at a placecalled Brookside Ranch.
A woman by the name of SusanRidley.
Mm-hmm.
Who, uh, her has a littleproperty, three bedrooms, three
bedroom, bed, breakfast righton, on her vineyard, and Susan
knows.
Everything that's happening.
Well, she's connected to thelocal dinner in Napa Valley.
She knows everything that'shappening.
(06:48):
So you wanna know about that newrestaurant?
You wanna know about that newvineyard that's just opened?
You wanna know where the, wherethe, the cool tour is.
You want her to set you up with,that wine maker that only takes
appointments.
Well, she's, I mean, it's just,it's really a big benefit to
have somebody there who's in theknow and
Francis (07:05):
who's connected.
But one of the things that'svery interesting is you hear,
mark and I talk about all thetime on this show, we talk
about.
Being part of the localcommunity, eating locally, going
to the local places, supportinglocal small businesses, and
that's what's most exciting inany community if you tra if
you're traveling just based onsome guidebook.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and only on that, you arereally not gonna be able to as
(07:27):
fully participate in the area asif when you go to a, a hotel
with a great concierge or asmall bed and breakfast with
somebody who really knows thearea.
Right.
the thing about Susan Ridley isshe's connected with what's
going on in California on a veryfundamental way and in a way
that you can't be.
So, you know, it's sort of likethe opposite of what your dad
did when, mm-hmm.
The way that your dad traveledwhen you were younger.
(07:47):
I'm sure he does it differentlynow.
I.
But to be a tourist is to tour.
Mm-hmm.
And to like see things as you goby to not really have solid
plans set in stone and show upsomewhere and maybe have a
reservation or two if you havethe luxury of doing that and
show up in a city and say, okay,concierge, where should I go?
What should I see?
And.
Have the flexibility.
(08:07):
Right.
You wander, you flexible.
I like
Mark (08:09):
having a framework of what I'm gonna be doing while I'm
there.
Mm-hmm.
But at the same time, ifsomething comes up that's,
that's, you know, moreinteresting or more exciting,
I'm totally willing to changeplans.
You gotta
Francis (08:19):
wander.
And we have a gentleman who'sgonna join us in the next
segment of the show who's anexpert on wandering and eating
well while you wander.
Michael Stern.
Uh, has published Road Food, aguide to some of the best road
food in America, and he'll bejoining us in just a moment to
talk about where to get goodeats all across the country.
Hey, you're back with therestaurant guys, mark Pascal and
Francis.
Shot from Stage Left Restaurantin New Brunswick.
And today we'd like to welcomeas our guest, Michael Stern, who
(08:41):
together with his wife, Jane,publishes road food, a coast to
coast guide to 600 of the bestbarbecue joints, lobster shacks,
ice cream parlors, highwaydiners in the country.
Jane and Michael have eaten inevery single one of these 600
roadside joints in their book.
Uh, from New Jersey toCalifornia and from Vermont to
Texas.
People Magazine calls theirguide an invaluable cross
country culinary guide thatshould be stashed in every food
(09:02):
lover's glove compartment.
And you can find out how toorder one for your own glove
compartment on our website lateron.
Today they've written more than30 books about America and their
road food column for GourmetMagazine.
Has won three coveted JamesBeard Awards.
They also review books for theNew York Times and they operate
road food.com, an onlineinteractive community of road
food, food warriors, andrestaurateurs.
(09:23):
That's really fabulous with allthat behind us.
Hi Michael.
Hi.
Speaker 9 (09:27):
How you
Mark (09:27):
doing?
Welcome to the show, Michael.
Francis (09:29):
I
Mark (09:29):
sound wonderful.
Francis (09:30):
Don't you sound great.
You're a genius.
Guy (09:32):
I can't
Francis (09:33):
believe it.
Yeah.
Alright, Michael, so you have,written about a lot of things
and you have a real expertise onfood and of all the foods in the
world.
Why road food?
Guy (09:43):
Oh,
Francis (09:43):
it's
Guy (09:43):
the best.
Mark (09:44):
Okay.
That's why you, you know thatthere's a bunch of people out
there thinking road food.
They're thinking squirrels thatyou ran over.
I
Guy (09:50):
know.
That's road still.
No.
The thing it, it, I meanhonestly, I believe in Jane and
I believe that America's.
Best food is road food.
I mean, not that there aren'tsome great chefs in this country
doing fabulous.
Well,
Mark (10:05):
we're pretty glad you said that because there are seven
French chefs listening to thisshow, sharpening
Francis (10:08):
their knives right now.
Guy (10:10):
Killed that there is some great upscale food in this
country.
Uhhuh much more than there everused to be.
However, you know, we see food,it's almost like.
Folk art.
Speaker 9 (10:19):
Mm-hmm.
I mean,
Guy (10:19):
if you really wanna get a sense of what this country is
like, what people are thinkingand doing in their hometowns, I
mean the, one of the best waysto do it is to sit down in a
town cafe or a truck stop, or adiner somewhere, and eat
alongside the locals and eatwhat the locals eat.
I mean, for us, it's more thanjust.
Food.
It's, it's just a real way oftasting this country in every
(10:40):
way.
Mark (10:40):
while it's fun to talk about the highbrow restaurants
and the types of restaurantsthat, that Francis and I eat,
get to eat in a lot and, own, inreality most of the country,
most of the time, most of thetime.
It, our, ourselves included.
Yep.
Are eating in in restaurantsmore like the ones you write
about?
Guy (10:56):
Well, I think so.
And you know, the fact is thekind, you know, the, the really
fine dining restaurant is formost people a kind of special
occasion thing.
Sure,
Mark (11:05):
sure.
Absolutely.
Of course.
Guy (11:06):
you know, it's the weekend, it's a big date, it's an animal,
whatever, or, or maybe you'rejust somebody who loves that
kind of food.
The kind of places we writeabout are.
Sort of everyday things.
It's like the difference betweenclassical music and folk music.
Mm-hmm.
You know, um, the kind of foodwe write about at its very best
is like kind of it's folk art.
Our originality Right.
Is not a prized quality of mostroad food.
Francis (11:27):
you remind me in, in the way that you write about
food, and we'll talk about thefood you write about and also
the way you write about it.
Your guide is very interesting.
It's no, you know, zago surveywith just a, a quick little,
snippet and some scores andpoints, the way you write about
food and talk about food onlinein your columns and in your
books.
you remind me a lot of, uh,you're sort of in the spirit of
Calvin Trillin.
Guy (11:45):
Yeah, well, he's a fellow traveler.
I he started a little bit beforewe did.
I mean, he was writing, youknow, for the New Yorker about
places like Kansas City, ArthurBryant's back in the, um, early
seventies when, when we just hadthe glimmer of an idea that,
that this country needed a bookcalled Road Food.
Um, you know, back, it's hard toremember in fact, you know, some
(12:07):
30 years ago how, um, I don'twant to say backward, but how,
how less.
Interest there was in food atevery level in this country.
Francis (12:16):
You know, Calvin Trillin used to write about when
he would, we know, write, hewrote about a lot of things when
he, but everyone knew that hewas a, a food writer and used to
write about great food inAmerica.
in a book called The TummyTrilogy, I think it was.
He, he writes about, he said,uh, so I would always show up in
some small town in the Midwest,in the mayor or somebody of
importance would meet me at theairport and say, oh, Mr.
Trilling, we're so glad you'rehere.
We have a fabulous Frenchrestaurant in town.
Right?
And he was always tempted torespond.
No you don't.
(12:37):
Yeah,
Guy (12:37):
exactly.
And he also, I also rememberhis, his comment about how a lot
of these restaurants boastedthat they served continental
cuisine and he often wonderedwhich continent was amped tica
because so much of it startedfrozen.
Right, right.
Francis (12:52):
That's good.
Well, and then he would ofcourse try and ditch that local
person trying to steer him tothe French restaurant and go
find a local barbecue joint.
Is that your philosophy as well?
Guy (12:59):
Without a doubt.
And the, one of the great thingsabout, what has happened over
the last.
Two or three decades is that Ithink more and more people are
recognizing that their localbarbecue parlor, catfish place,
lobster Roll Shack, you know,whatever it might be, is really
worthwhile interest and special.
Special in its own way.
(13:19):
It's special in its own way and,and in some ways, you know, I
think a lot of people, forexample, they grow up in a
particular town or region andare so accustomed to whatever
their local.
Specialty is, you know, I grewup in Chicago and I grew
accustomed to great, um, Italiandeep sandwiches, which is a real
Chicago thing.
You don't find it anywhere else.
It was only when I moved awayfrom Chicago that I, I realized,
(13:42):
man, this is a local specialtybecause he's kind of take it for
granted.
Francis (13:45):
Mm-hmm.
Don't you find that the localspecialties are under assault?
As you know, everyone ontelevision started to lose their
accent and, and we all start toeat in Olive Garden wherever we
are in the country.
Guy (13:54):
Oh, I know.
Well, that's a con, you know,I'll tell you can get really
depressed when you think aboutthe onslaught of the, of the big
chains.
However, I have to say that whenJane and I.
Put together the first editionof Road Food back in the
seventies.
We honestly believed we weredocumenting the end of an era
that, that, that by the year2000 there, there would only be
(14:15):
the really upscale restaurantsfor people with a lot of money
and good taste and the, and thechange
Speaker 9 (14:21):
right of Taco Bell.
Guy (14:21):
And Yeah.
But that really hasn't happened.
Well, I mean, you know, Jane andI have seen a lot of great
restaurants get kind of muscledout of business.
Speaker 9 (14:29):
Mm-hmm.
You know,
Guy (14:30):
great mom and pop restaurants, Uhhuh get muscled
out because, you know, A-T-G-I-For whatever moves into town.
But the fact is that because weAmericans have become more
appreciative of our localcuisine, I think a lot of it is
holding on where it might nothave held on 20, 30, 40 years
ago.
Mark (14:46):
Do do you think it's actually swinging back the other
way?
Or do you think that thatMcDonald's and those places are,
are continuing to take it?
Guy (14:51):
Well, deeper roots, you know, there, there's no stopping
the franchises.
I mean, they've got the money,they've got the muscle.
How, however, I've seen a lot ofexamples.
You know, I haven't taken asurvey, but I've seen a lot of
examples of, of wonderful, oneof a kind local restaurants.
Actually getting passed on to anew generation.
Francis (15:10):
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
And that's something that we as,as restaurant owners and, uh,
consultants for smallrestaurants, love to see.
We're here talking with authorMichael Stern and we're talking
about his book Road Food.
And we'll be talking more aboutwhere you can get great, great
road food across the country andright here in New Jersey.
In just a moment.
one of the things we talk aboutin Jersey all the time is I sat
on the board of directors forthe New Jersey Restaurant
Association for many years andwhenever we would get involved
(15:32):
in the National RestaurantAssociation,'cause there's an
affiliation between the stateassociations and the National
New Jersey RestaurantAssociation was always these
little mom and pops dominatedthe board and dominated our
membership.
Mm-hmm.
But in most other states it wasMcDonald's, burger King,
Kentucky Fried Chicken, Boston,you know, let us entertain you,
be our guest.
These big, big groups is the momand pop more found in the
(15:53):
Northeast?
Or where, where do we find moremom and pops?
Where do we find more chains?
Guy (15:56):
Well, that's, and that's an interesting question because in
fact, you know, road food, somepeople will complain about our
book because we have, you know,we might have like 30
restaurants listed in New Jerseyand three in North Dakota.
Speaker 9 (16:09):
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Guy (16:10):
Um, and that's, you know.
Great road food is really areflection of the population and
in places, you know, like thenortheast, you know, New Jersey,
New York, Connecticut, even upinto Maine or places like the,
the, the Gulf Coast, you know,the deep south, um, new Orleans.
You find this, these kind ofreally, um.
Heterogeneous populations
Speaker 9 (16:31):
mm-hmm.
Guy (16:31):
That lend themselves to just great food.
You know, some of those kind of,uh, Italian American, you know,
French American, whatever slashAmerican cuisines as well as
cuisines that have developedhere, indigenously places where
there are.
Strong concentrations ofpopulation.
You find tons of excellent roadfood.
Francis (16:49):
Well, there are 37 people in South Dakota.
I mean, how many restaurants canthey support?
Exactly.
It just
Guy (16:53):
doesn't make sense for, you know, a great, wonderful mom and
pop restaurant to exist in everylittle town in South Dakota,
however, you know, in New Jerseyor southern Louisiana for us to
find great road food.
It's like, you know, shootingfish in a barrel,
Francis (17:05):
Uhhuh.
Well, you know, it's funny, Itraveled across.
I, I have a motorcycle andsometimes I'll, head out Midwest
and I like to ride on the BlueHighways and, and I didn't have
your book the last time I didit, and so I'll have to have
your book in my saddlebags nexttime I go.
But I, I would often find myselftraveling in like the, the West
Virginia area in like border ofthe Midwest and the south.
I, I just
Mark (17:23):
went, I just actually just went through West Virginia last
week
Francis (17:25):
and boy, is your book necessary?
'cause out there, it's notshooting fish in a barrel.
It was like, it's
Mark (17:29):
Waffle House,
Francis (17:30):
Kentucky Fried Chicken,
Mark (17:31):
McDonald's, burger King.
There's
Francis (17:32):
actually, I mean, the worst abomination is held in the
name of this chain.
The Eaton Park.
Oh, great.
Do you, have you ever heard ofthe Eaton Park?
No.
No, I haven't.
Just didn't walk inside.
But I thought
Mark (17:43):
that is just where we're going.
But literally, I, I was goingthrough at West Virginia just
last week, like I said, almostseven and literally every exit.
Has a McDonald's,
Guy (17:53):
there's nothing to eat.
Well see, West Virginia is atricky one.
Mm-hmm.
Because some of the greatspecialties in West Virginia,
the road food type specialtiesare oddly enough not found in
restaurants.
They're found in the mostunlikely like convenience
stores.
Right.
And
Mark (18:07):
bakeries.
You know, it's funny that yousay that'cause we stopped in a
town'cause the baby wasscreaming, stopped in a little
town and I refused to go to oneof the chains.
And so we went to one of these,what looked like a little
convenience store place.
And they were serving deliciousfried chicken and uh, you know,
you could buy a bottle of waterfor the road or whatever, but,
but it, it had little tablesinside of it.
(18:28):
Really unique place, I thought.
Yeah.
Well
Guy (18:30):
that, that's one of the tricks of, of, of road food in,
in some places, is that it,they're not, it's not served in
what you would imagine, youknow, the classical small town
cafe with the little calicocurtains.
I mean, in, in West Virginia,for example, one of the great
specialties there.
We didn't know about this foryears.
Mm-hmm.
Francis (18:46):
Because
Speaker 9 (18:46):
we
Guy (18:46):
just didn't know to look for it, is what they call the
pepperoni roll.
Francis (18:50):
And we're gonna find more about the pepperoni roll
when we come back after thenews.
You're listening to theRestaurant Guys, before the
news, you were talking to usabout a specialty that West
Virginia is known for.
Guy (19:01):
Yes, it's uh, it's known primarily only the West
Virginians who live therebecause it hasn't traveled far.
It's called the pepperoni roll,which is something that I think
we, in the northeast, knowinggreat Italian food like we do,
can appreciate it was actuallyinvented.
Back in the 1920s at a localbakery as a food that miners
could take, eat into the mineswith them easily.
(19:21):
Sort of like the past, the upand the upper peninsula of
Michigan.
What it is is like a pizza likedough wrapped around pepperoni
sticks that is then baked.
And what happens, it's reallydelicious, is that the pepperoni
sticks have enough oil in
Speaker 9 (19:35):
them mm-hmm.
Guy (19:35):
That the oil kind of saturates the dough.
Mark (19:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (19:38):
Um,
Guy (19:39):
and you know, you and these are, they're portable.
They're absolutely delicious.
Some recipe
Mark (19:43):
sounds horrible for you.
And spectacular.
Guy (19:45):
Yeah.
Well, what food isn't, I mean,what worthwhile food is
Francis (19:49):
now.
Now, how do you eat this?
Do you like eat it like alollipop or do you slice it and
eat it?
Guy (19:53):
No.
Well, that's, it's in theconvenience stores that serve it
and bakeries.
You just eat it like a lollipop,you know, just chow down on it.
Mm-hmm.
Like you would a roll thathappens to have this thing
inside.
There are a few places thatserve it on a plate topped with
sauce, so it becomes almost likewhat we might call a calzone,
you know?
Mm-hmm.
That's
Francis (20:10):
a meat stick.
Yeah, it's just a meat stick.
How glorious is
Guy (20:14):
that?
Yeah.
Meat and bread, you know, withsome.
Sauce on it.
I'm happy.
Mark (20:19):
So what other regional specialties are, let's start
with the Northeast.
What other regional specialtiesare there?
Guy (20:23):
Well, for example, uh, you know, if you're traveling along
the coast of Maine, you want alobster roll.
Speaker 9 (20:27):
Mm-hmm.
I mean,
Guy (20:28):
we just did that.
Uh, actually I'm saying that'cause we just did it a few
weeks ago and boy, the lobsterrolls you get at places like
red's eats in Wi Gasset or theclam shack in kind of bun port
are so spectacularly good.
I mean, it's the meat of over,of more than the meat from a
whole one pound lobster.
Piled into a bun and drizzledwith melted butter.
(20:49):
That's all.
What's better than that?
Now?
Mark (20:51):
What more do you need now?
Francis (20:52):
Let me, now, let me ask you, when, when you find places
that are sort of remote from theregion or some places that do
the.
The weak imitation.
What, what, what do they dowrong?
Let's say, let's talk about thelobster roll or the Philly
cheese
Mark (21:03):
steak, or, yeah.
Guy (21:04):
Well, you know, there are all kinds of things they can do
wrong.
I mean, the thing about a a, agreat lobster roll is that that
meat has been picked out of alobster within.
Mo minutes, uhhuh of it beingput in the bun
Mark (21:15):
as opposed to coming in a frozen bag to Bennigan's.
I,
Guy (21:17):
we once went to a restaurant in, it was in, um, in
northern Michigan and they hadsome lobster dish on the menu
and we thought, you know, youknow, Michigan is not the place
you're gonna order a lobster.
Right?
But we had to ask, we asked thewaitress, we said, is this
lobster fresh?
And the waitress said, oh yes, Ijust saw the chef open the can
Francis (21:36):
that's.
And that's when you said, youknow what?
My wife is feeling Ill, can wehave a check?
You know what my fa you know,that brings me to like, you
know, corporate agribusiness hasall these ways to fool you into
thinking you're, you're eatingsomething that you're not or
you're not eating something thatyou are.
My favorite line is if you gointo the supermarket aisles,
you'll see fresh, frozen.
What does that mean?
Well, it means that it was freshwhen they froze it, but it's not
(21:57):
anymore that, as opposed to thepeople who let things rock as
opposed a spoiled frozen.
Exactly.
Yeah.
That's Everything was fresh.
Once everybody, you know, it's abroken clock, right?
Twice a day.
Well, one of our favoriteregional American foods and that
you write about pretty widely inyour book is, is barbecue.
Yeah.
I think that's one of the mostfascinating, uniquely American
(22:18):
foods.
Can you talk to us aboutbarbecue?
Guy (22:20):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, we could have donean entire book.
Devoted only to barbecue.
I be.
Just because there are so manydifferent regional variations of
barbecue.
Mm-hmm.
You know what the basic one, ofcourse being, you know, in Texas
you get beef.
In the Carolinas you get pork,but then in, you know, western
Kentucky, you get mutton.
Speaker 9 (22:38):
Right.
And what
Guy (22:39):
kind of wood is it smoked over?
Mm-hmm.
And does it have sauce?
And if it does have sauce, whatkind of sauce?
And is it a mustard sauce?
Is it, is it tomato sauce?
Is it vinegar sauce?
Is it just in a kind of a juicefrom the beef?
You know, the varieties areendless.
Not to mention.
All the requisite side dishes incertain areas.
You know, like in some placesit's hush puppies.
(22:59):
In other places it's just astack of sunbeam white bread.
Francis (23:02):
Does anybody anywhere make good bread that goes with
barbecue?
That's always my disappointment.
Guy (23:07):
Well, I've had barbecue served on excellent rolls, and
let me tell you, it wasextremely confusing to my pal.
In some ways, I, I have come tobelieve that bad bread.
It's, it's, it's there to sop upsauce and if it has a taste and
texture of its own, it gets,it's confused,
Speaker 9 (23:29):
gets in the way.
You're right.
Guy (23:29):
I mean, good, excellent barbecue and excellent bread
are, are two things that areseldom if ever found together on
a plate.
Mark (23:37):
I think that that one of the things that, that.
Lends barbecue to, to being soregionally, uh, different and,
and people putting so much heartand soul into it is it takes so
long.
Great barbecue takes 12 hours,24 hours, 36 hours sometimes to,
to create.
So people are putting theirheart and soul into barbecue and
(23:58):
which, which I think in turnyou, you have people taking a
little more care to make it.
Guy (24:03):
You're absolutely right.
Barbecue requires a kind ofdevotion that by definition is
gonna create something special.
Um, it's not unless you, you usethat everybody's favorite liquid
smoke, that flavor.
Um, it does take time.
And, and you know, Jane and I infact developed a whole theory
of, It's the pigs plus Jesustheory of barbecue that when
(24:24):
you're in the deep south, if yougo into a barbecue parlor and
see a lot of religiousiconography on the wall, chances
are very good.
The barbecue is gonna beexcellent
Speaker 9 (24:34):
cause there's a similarity.
And I'm not
Guy (24:35):
trying to be smart about, there's a real similarity
between devotion
Speaker 9 (24:40):
uhhuh
Guy (24:40):
to one's faith and devotion to barbecue.
It takes time.
Barbecue is a
Speaker 9 (24:44):
faith man.
Mark (24:45):
It
Guy (24:45):
is.
Yeah.
There you go.
Francis (24:46):
one of the things that's very interesting about
barbecue is we talk all the timeabout how America, at least in,
in a lot of parts of America,are getting increasingly good
taste.
the rise of the celebrity chefand the TV food channel and all
the cooking shows on tv, I thinkis, is lending to America having
increasingly good taste but oneof the areas that people have
always had good taste and beenreally passionate about what
(25:08):
they like and what they don't.
When people get into argumentsabout is.
You know,
Guy (25:13):
well, you're right.
And that, and that's a rarity.
I mean, because I think you'reabsolutely on the ball when you
say that.
I don't think it's even goingtoo far to say that we've had a
kind of culinary renaissance inthis country over the last 20,
30, 40 years.
Francis (25:24):
I don't think that's an exaggeration at all.
No, I agree.
I
Guy (25:26):
think because when you think what it was like, I mean,
I'm old enough to remember whatit was like in the early
seventies.
I mean, it was a sad scene interms of finding good food at
any level, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Uhhuh, um, it was tough, and Ithink there is a renaissance,
but you're right, there are somefoods, I mean, I think.
Barbecue is one.
Chili is another one you couldstart a civil war
Mark (25:44):
over.
Right?
Well isn't that what the CivilWar was started over?
Yeah.
Guy (25:47):
Could be.
Francis (25:48):
Now you, now you have 600 restaurants in your guide.
You've eaten at each of theserestaurants.
Guy (25:53):
Well, we've eaten at probably 6,000 to find those
600.
I mean, you're
Francis (25:57):
a busy guy.
Well, you know, we,
Speaker 9 (25:59):
you must be very fat
Guy (26:03):
six restaurants that we like best, and you find one
that's worth recommending.
You've got eat in at least ahandful of ones that are maybe
just okay or worse.
Francis (26:13):
Mm-hmm.
Guy (26:14):
Do you spend all your time on the road?
Uh, about half maybe.
Francis (26:17):
And you just go from place to place and we eat?
Yes.
And will we blessed
Guy (26:20):
with excellent appetite.
Will you do two lunches a day?
Francis (26:23):
Will you do two lunches a day?
Two?
No.
I mean, we will
Guy (26:28):
on a really good day.
And if we're in a place that isroad Food rich
Speaker 9 (26:32):
Uhhuh,
Guy (26:33):
um, we might.
Go into a 10, 12 restaurants.
Speaker 9 (26:37):
Oh my God.
Which
Guy (26:37):
isn't say we're gonna have 10 or 12 full meals, you know?
Right.
Because we have to be able toorder something.
And if it tastes only mediocre,just, you know, appetite.
Push
Francis (26:45):
it aside.
Your book, I, I alluded toearlier that it's not as a got
survey.
It doesn't say visit this place.
Mm-hmm.
26 points.
People say, uh, have the ham,you know, it's, it's, you write.
Little stories about each ofthese restaurants really.
And, and what do you, what doyou do that's differently?
How would you classify yourunique way of reviewing these
places?
Guy (27:05):
Well, as I said earlier, for, for Jane and me, what we're
looking for is not onlydelicious food, but.
An experience.
Mm-hmm.
Um, that kind, that sings of itsplace and region.
So that means we wanna knowabout how the food is presented
to you, how you get it.
You know, some places you standat the counter and you take a
number.
(27:26):
Mm-hmm.
Other places it's dished out bya by a rude waitress, you know?
Whatever, you know, the wholeexperience of getting the food
is important to us, including,you know, accents.
So how do the people speak?
What are the, what's theirslang,
Speaker 9 (27:38):
uh,
Guy (27:38):
particular kind of food?
So when we write about arestaurant, it's really crucial
for us to not just say, here'swhat you get on a plate, but
here's what's gonna happen whenyou walk in the door, or maybe
even when you come into thistown.
Speaker 9 (27:49):
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Guy (27:50):
and that's what we're trying to capture when we write
about these places.
Mark (27:53):
So do you only, do you only write about.
The the places that make it toyour column or to your, to your
book.
So those are, those are placesthat you're recommending.
You've already weeded out theones that you don't recommend?
Guy (28:03):
Yeah.
It's our feeling that nobodyneeds, and in fact, nobody would
buy a book that was a guide toall the places we really didn't
like eating.
Oh.
Places to avoid Traveled aroundthe country.
Mark (28:14):
I actually might buy a book of places to avoid,
although I think you could do ashort book of very
Francis (28:18):
funny anter reviews or a little appendix at the back of
how the horrible Places you'vebeen.
What is the, what is the what?
Have you had any like trulycomical experiences of, of just,
oh my God, get me outta here.
Guy (28:29):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
We have had some, um, you know,really hideous food.
Simply because, you know, thecook or chef made some terrible
mistakes.
I mean, I remember an omeletthat we got in Oklahoma once
that was really the texture of aMichelin tire.
Um,
Speaker 9 (28:43):
I think, you know, I don't,
Guy (28:44):
you know, stuff like that happens all the time.
But the really funny stuff iswhat happens when, when what we
are served is exactly the wayit's supposed to be.
Francis (28:53):
Like, give us an example.
Guy (28:54):
Well, for example, chitlins steamed in vinegar.
Francis (28:56):
Oh, now
Guy (28:58):
you know, a fried chi is, you know, that I can take or
leave chitlin steamed invinegar.
Imagine the.
Of this dish.
Have you ever Well, it's down insouthern Virginia.
This is a favorite in a lot ofrestaurants.
Mark (29:11):
Okay.
You talked about the pepperoniroll.
I was hungry.
You've cured that problem.
Francis (29:15):
Have you ever had snoot?
Oh yeah.
Now
Guy (29:18):
s Snoop's pretty good.
Francis (29:19):
Oh, come on.
No, is I'm returning your bookright now.
Guy (29:23):
In St.
Louis, we had, there's a placecalled C and k Barbecue Uhhuh in
St.
Louis, Missouri, where weavoided Snoots for many years.
Finally, we decided we'd bebrave.
We'd order them, and I.
Like a pig snout on a plate.
Uhhuh.
In fact, it's not, it's likestrips of meat.
It's sort of like coochieFritos.
It's
Francis (29:38):
it's strips of me taken from the pig snout on the plate.
Yeah.
Guy (29:42):
You don't deny this, but you know what's worse than
snoots?
I mean, if snus are bad, Ithought, well, since I enjoyed
snoots a little bit, maybe Ishould order pig ear, which was
also on the menu.
Speaker 9 (29:51):
Yeah, yeah.
Guy (29:52):
What I got was literally one pig ear.
That's that's how they
Mark (29:56):
serve
Guy (29:57):
two pieces of bread.
Mark (29:58):
They're really served that way.
They really actually serve you.
Pig.
Okay.
I'll take the
Francis (30:01):
Silk purse everybody.
We'll leave the pigs here.
You know, it's funny, we did ashow from the, uh, Big Apple
Barbecue Festival.
Mm-hmm.
And we interviewed a woman whoserved me s Snoop for the first
time.
And I got her on the radio and Iswear she said to me, I'm gonna
win a James Beard Award forthis.
She was great.
She
Speaker 9 (30:15):
said,
Francis (30:16):
he said, now she explained it to me and I was
sort of incredulous as to whatit was.
It was the posterior of the noseof the, and I said.
You eat that?
And she said, we serve it allfrom the router to the Tudor.
I thought I neither want therouter nor the Tudor.
I'll just take the thing in themiddle.
The middle.
I would like the middle.
(30:36):
Please call me a snob if youwant.
So what about New Jersey, man?
You've written about New Jerseyand everything in New Jersey.
You write about's a hotdog.
Guy (30:44):
Well, not entirely.
We do write about thesespectacular, hero sandwiches
down at
Speaker 9 (30:50):
the White House.
Wow.
Down in the White House City.
Yeah.
Guy (30:52):
there are a lot of good places to get such sandwiches in
the Delaware Valley, but I, Ireally still think that the best
on Earth are there.
Speaker 9 (31:00):
Mm-hmm.
Um,
Guy (31:00):
and you know, people who think they've eaten one because
they had one in New York.
City or in Hartford?
No, no.
Have no idea what they'retalking about.
You know that's true.
Mark (31:09):
I mean, there are people in this state who drive to To
Atlantic City.
Yeah, well, to gamble.
And then they get a, they
Guy (31:15):
get a it's, and they drown their sorrows.
What happens?
Francis (31:17):
Literally, there's no way I'm leaving Atlantic City
without stopping.
Not, not a chance.
No.
It's one of the greats, youknow.
Well, we're Mark Mark'soriginally from Nutley, which is
in Essex County, New Jersey,which is the county that Newark
is in, and I'm originally fromOrange.
And, um, so all of your likeNewark hotdog Yeah.
Uh, places that you recommend.
Oh yeah.
You really hit the nail on thehead there.
Guy (31:35):
Well, that's one of those local specialties that I think
locals take for granted.
Francis (31:39):
Oh, no.
Guy (31:39):
And we had, we, we didn't even know about them ourselves
until many years ago.
Martha.
Stewart told us, you know, as anative, really?
Oh, she's from Nutley.
She said we, she was the one whorecommended ruts hut to us.
Rut.
Rut hut.
Lemme
Mark (31:49):
tell you, if you're from that region,
Francis (31:51):
oh my God, yeah.
Ruts hut is an icon.
Mark and I live 45 minutes awayfrom there when we're down here
in New Brunswick and we woulddrive up to North Jersey for a
hot dog and people say You'redriving 45 minutes for a hot
dog.
You don't understand.
Mark (32:01):
The problem with Ruts hut though, was it closes at like 11
or 12 o'clock and you the timeyou really want a ruts hut dog.
It is about 1:00 AM.
2:00 AM That's
Guy (32:09):
a long night.
It's a killer, pure
Mark (32:11):
method of hot dog eating, right?
Francis (32:12):
You know what else I love about your book?
You really capture ruts hut,which is this dive on 46, where
it's all stainless steel and theguy yells into a microphone to
the short order cook to make youyour fried hot dog.
Yeah.
And you capture lingo, which Igo at ruts you site where they
order twins all the way, whichis two hot dogs with mustard and
relish.
Yes.
My favorite thing when I gothere to order.
Is I order, an two hot dogs andan orange soda because you know
(32:35):
what this short order cook SLlingo for that is no two rippers
and a howdy.
A howdy, Ady, Howie, orangesoda, howdy duty, howdy duty,
orange hair, orange soda.
It took me about a year and ahalf.
That's, I never knew this.
I.
Took me about a year and a halfto figure out what a howdy was.
I don't even like orange soda.
I just like hearing them saythat in the microphone.
Guy (32:53):
Well, see, that's my point is that the whole experience of
eating there, I mean, it's partof why that hot dog is so
delicious.
Francis (32:59):
You got it.
Mark (32:59):
But Michael, what I.
What we wanna talk to you alittle bit now is your, your
website, road food.com,
Guy (33:04):
Well, I, I tell you, it kind of grew it, it's one of
those things we started severalyears ago.
I mean, I, I don't have theexpertise to do it, but a, a
good, uh, a.
Fan named Steven Rushmore, who'sa computer expert, started it
and it's grown tremendously.
We have these forums for, fornot only people who like to eat
in restaurants, but forrestaurateurs as well.
Mark (33:24):
I, I saw the, the, the restaurant professionals
section.
It was very good.
Guy (33:27):
Yeah.
And, and, and what I love aboutit is that, um, you know, as
good as Jane and my appetitesare, we can't eat everything all
the time, but road food.com hasa way for.
Uh, you know, people who use thesite can submit their own
reviews in places.
Francis (33:41):
Mm-hmm.
Now, do you edit those at alland say, oh no, that's crap.
I'm not putting that up there.
We
Guy (33:44):
have somebody who does that, who's like a real road
food connoisseur who not onlyedits them, but figures out
which ones are, um, written bythe restaurant owner themselves.
Speaker 9 (33:55):
Um,
Guy (33:55):
so they, they are kind of screened, we don't want to post
just.
Junk.
But I mean, I just think it'swonderful that it's open to
appetites all over the country,
Speaker 9 (34:04):
right?
Guy (34:04):
To, um, you know, to post reviews of places that real road
food fans ought to know about.
Francis (34:09):
Well, and, and you have on the website, you, you know,
you only list six or sevenplaces.
Uh, for New Jersey for example.
On in your book, which youvisited personally, but there
are 18 places listed on yourwebsite and then, and it's
really amazing the detail youget if you click on these places
names.
Like if you click on Ruts Hutand you get a picture of Ruts
Hut, you get a sample menu fromRuts Hut.
Yeah.
Very interesting.
Okay, hold on, on, hold
Mark (34:29):
on, hold on.
All right.
Ruts Hut doesn't really have amenu.
It's very short.
Francis (34:33):
It's very, very short.
They
Guy (34:35):
have that.
That, that room where you canactually go and sit down.
They actually do have a sit down
Mark (34:38):
place, but, but nobody I know has ever actually been in
that room.
It
Guy (34:41):
looks interesting.
Francis (34:44):
I have plug for being a Jersey guy.
Right across from Jimmy Bus inWest Orange, two blocks away,
there's a place called the StarTavern for pizza.
Ooh.
Best pizza in New Jersey.
Oh, it is not.
New
Guy (34:53):
Jersey has some excellent pizza too.
Francis (34:55):
Yeah.
There's no pizza in your book onJersey.
Guy (34:57):
I know.
We have to go to Lorenzo's inNewark.
People have been, have beenkilling it.
Uh, it's, I haven't done That's
Francis (35:01):
good.
I say Star Tavern in Star.
Really?
And it's in Orange, right acrossthe West Orange barter.
It's two blocks from JimmyBuffet.
Off the air,
Mark (35:07):
off the air.
We'll give you some moresuggestions.
Okay.
Francis (35:09):
Hey, we wanna thank you for taking the time to join us,
Michael.
Guy (35:11):
Pleasure.
Thanks.
Francis (35:12):
Thanks so much.
It's been terrific and we'regonna put your link you up to
our website so people can findyou through us.
And your book is justinvaluable.
It's really great and I'm gonnastick it in my saddle bags for
the next time I go on a littlemotorcycle.
It's in my glove box
Mark (35:22):
as we speak.
Francis (35:22):
Alright, thanks.
Alright, take care Michael.
Bye-bye.
Have a great day.
Thanks.
(35:49):
What an interesting fellow.
What a great book.
Michael Stern, who publishesRoad Food and Road food.com,
writes for Gorman Magazine, andhe writes about other stuff too.
It's not just, uh, about food.
He's writing 30 books aboutAmerica in general.
Mark (36:02):
But the reality is every single one of us spends time on
the road driving from place toplace.
And the choices, if you don'thave a resource like this, are
fast food or take a chance onsome place that you've never
heard of
Francis (36:14):
and, and there's fast food that you can get that's
actually real.
I mean, we have Tasty Subs, theTasty Subs, the 2D two different
towns are in, what are the twotowns?
Mark (36:21):
one's in Edison, one's up in like South Brunswick,
Francis (36:24):
that's a subs shop.
That locally is really good.
And it's not owned by acorporation.
It's owned by a guy.
Right.
Or Jersey Subs in, uh, newBrunwick Jersey Subs in New
Brunswick is a great place ifyou're in downtown New Brunswick
to go and.
I would always rather go to aplace that's owned by an
individual and take my chancesrather
Mark (36:38):
well.
'cause generally they have alittle bit more invested in it.
Francis (36:41):
Well, I'm Francis Shot.
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurant guys,central Jersey 1450.
Time is 12 noon.
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