July 31, 2025 • 36 mins
Current day intro and the interview is a Vintage Selection from 2005
The Banter
The Guys, in 2025, set the scene for this interview with Ruth Reichl, a newspaper restaurant critic who changed the landscape of professional reviews. The Guys share reviews they have received and ones they were glad they didn’t.
The Conversation
The Restaurant Guys interview Ruth Reichl to discuss the roles of critic and restaurateur and how they must stay focused on enhancing the diner experience. Ruth talks of hate mail, disguises and the enormous pressure on critics to get it right.
The Inside Track
The Guys finally got to talk to Ruth about whether to acknowledge a critic in your restaurant. If only she could have told them sooner…
Francis: You spot the restaurant critic in the dining room. My inclination is to go over and say hello. Like I say hello to everybody in my dining room.
Ruth: Well, you probably shouldn't.
Mark: Yeah, we're sure of that now.
-Ruth Reichl on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2005
Bio
Ruth Reichl started out as a co-owner and chef of Swallow Restaurant in Berkeley, California. She became the restaurant editor then food editor and critic at the Los Angeles Times. Ruth returned to her native New York in 1993 to become the restaurant critic for the New York Times where she rocked the NYC restaurant scene with her dual review of Le Cirque in 1993. She stayed until 1999 when assumed the role of editor of Gourmet magazine.
She has written a dozen books and has appeared as a judge on Top Chef Masters.
Currently, Ruth co-hosts a podcast and posts a food writer newsletter on Substack.
Ruth is a winner of six James Beard Awards as well as their Lifetime Achievement Award.
Info
Ruth’s podcast, Three Ingredients
https://threeingredients.substack.com/
Ruth’s Substack, La Briffe
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
the-restaurant-guys_3_07- (00:11):
Hello everybody and welcome.
You are listening to theRestaurant Guys.
I'm Mark Pascal and I'm herewith Francis Shot.
Together we own stage left inCaptain Lombardi restaurants in
New Brunswick, New Jersey.
We're here to bring you theinside track on food, wine, and
the finer things in life.
Hello, mark.
Hey Francis.
How are you?
Hello, listeners.
We have an unusual show today.
So you know how normally onTuesdays we release a new show.
(00:32):
Thursday as we release a showfrom the archives Today we have
a small interview with RuthReel, who was the New York Times
restaurant critic for a longtime.
She's one of our favoritecritics, and she was one of the
most important critics ever towrite for the most important
newspaper, restaurant review atthe time.
This is from 2005, and she'ssmart and fun and funny, and
what you did was historicallyimportant.
(00:53):
even for us here in New Jersey,the New Jersey section, New York
Times.
Was the most important review wecould get.
Yeah.
Well she's great and we lookforward to talking to her later.
And it's a, an interesting lookat history and an important time
and a really intelligent lady.
She has a podcast of her ownthese days.
I know that's out theresomewhere.
She's a smart, smart person tolisten to.
It's not quite as good as thisone, but it's, it's you what
could be Mark, what could be,you know?
(01:15):
I think we also need to set thisshow up a little bit because
it's a very different world 20years later, right?
There was no Yelp.
There was no Google.
There was city search.com, whichwasn't that widely listened to.
I mean, we look at, we look atnow where you can go on and look
at somebody's Yelp review.
You can look at their Googlereviews, you can look at their,
their open table reviews.
You can look on resi, you canlook in a million different
(01:36):
places and hear a milliondifferent voices.
And there are still peoplereviewing restaurants, but their
voices are one of many.
Instead of one of, one of the,right, one of thousands and tens
of thousands or one of three.
But the other thing is that youhad some really, you had some
critics who didn't really know alot.
Mm-hmm.
But they were okay.
They knew.
Knew at least something.
(01:56):
But you had critics who reallywere foodies.
I mean, the New York Timesrestaurant critic, that was
Frank Rooney, Ruth Reel.
All those guys, they really,Craig Warn, I mean all the
people who came before them too,they really knew Gail Green, New
York Magazine, Craig Labon inPhiladelphia, Anthony Gilio, who
wrote for Cranes, New Yorkbusiness and a number of other
publications.
These people really knew whatthey were talking about.
So you were held to a highstandard.
(02:17):
but the, the review came out andthat was it.
You didn't get reviewed againfor years.
Mm-hmm.
And they were so important tous.
And I remember that Jeff MilgramYep.
Was a reviewer, was thereviewer.
And he, they came in anonymouslywas it a first month or so?
Oh, it was way too early to, tobe getting a review.
So he came in and he stood up atthe end of his meal.
He said, I'm Jeff Milgram fromthe Home News.
(02:38):
And we went, huh.
You know, oh no.
And uh, he said, this was great.
And we, we knew it was comingout.
the following Wednesday.
Mm-hmm.
after work, we were open tilltwo in the morning.
Back then we went back to myhouse on Hartwell Street where
the whole staff is in my livingroom.
We're drinking beers waiting forthe newspaper to come out, i.
and then eventually we, we droveto the newspaper plant'cause it
(02:58):
was here in, this area.
Mm-hmm.
And grabbed the newspaper as itleft to go on the trucks.
But we were petrified.
I mean, it was our first review.
We'd been open for six weeksmaybe.
I mean, it was literally thefirst summer we were open and it
was so important to our lives.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I, I don't rememberthe review from five years ago.
(03:19):
I don't remember that much aboutit, but that review that
happened 33 years ago, I canquote it.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, I can quote that becauseFrancis used to be the mare D
one day, and I would be thebartender and then he would be
the bartender the next day, andI would be the mare d And I will
never forget.
And we know which one he wastalking about.
when he said the jovial barrelchested bartender, no one, no
(03:42):
one has ever accused me of beingbarrel chested and only
occasionally jovial.
I'm the jovial one.
You are.
You don't have to listen to thisshow a lot to not My favorite
was jovial one in an earlierview.
I forget which one.
Maybe you can enlighten me.
I remember one of the criticsreferred to something as
Luscious.
That's the same review.
Yeah.
Jeff Milgram.
Yeah.
But he wasn't talking aboutMark, but Mark adopted the
nickname Luscious for about ayear and a half.
I said, if anyone wants to callme Luscious, that is an
(04:04):
acceptable nickname.
No one took him up on it, but hereminded us all the time.
And then, but I remember whenthe New York Times, review first
came out and we got two starsfrom them within a year of
opening about three stars 18months thereafter.
But I remember one of thosetimes we went back to my house
in New Brunswick.
Just the whole staff came backand we're sitting on my couch
drinking, waiting for the homedelivery, at like five in the
(04:25):
morning to my house.
waiting for the paperboard tothrow it up on the porch.
And then we scrambled out and,and read our review that we were
delighted to receive.
And that's what would happen.
We would have these, thesereview parties.
We'd, you know, we'd close therestaurant at two o'clock in the
morning and we'd go back tosomebody's house.
Usually Francis, he lived herein town.
20 of us would go back and havea party and open a couple
(04:46):
bottles of wine, maybe more thana couple bottles of wine.
It was like, wait, have somecocktails.
It was like waiting for thetheater reviews.
You realize it was exactly likethat.
If, you have a memory of that oryou've ever seen a movie of
that, it was exactly like thatthe thing was people used to
keep those reviews for a longtime and so.
I remember people would likeput, if they wanted to go to a
restaurant, they'd cut it outthe article.
Mm-hmm.
And stick it on theirrefrigerator with a magnet or
(05:06):
keep it in a file, and peoplewould turn up with a review with
a dish that you haven't made intwo years saying, I want the
macadamia and crusted tuna withmangoes.
You're like.
Man that went off the menu threeand a half years ago, and I, I
don't have any mangos.
And that chef and that chefdoesn't even work here anymore.
That's exactly.
But uh, they'd be shocked.
Well, also because Americanrestaurants had been, the menu
(05:26):
is the menu.
It never changes.
And we were one of the firstseasonal farm to table seasonal
restaurant.
Right.
So literally the entire menuwould turn over every three
months For the season.
And then specials would be, youknow, the thing like
strawberries that were good fortwo weeks or whatever the,
whatever the ingredient was,and, and that people weren't
used to that.
But I, I have to say positives,there were, intelligent, good
(05:47):
writers who knew about foodwriting, news, reviews,
negatives.
Let's look at some of thedownsides So the New York Times
used to come in on a full budgetthree times.
So they, they were sure that youwere getting a, fair shake at
it.
Some publications they'd paytheir reviewers to come in.
Once you come in on a bad night,everybody's got a bad night.
You know, everybody has one badexperience That was unfair.
Mm-hmm.
Um, never happened to us, thankGod.
(06:08):
But, you know, could, you'reliving fear of like the, the
waiter you're about to fire thechefs Last night, So anyway, so
that was a downside.
We were the beneficiaries ofthis quite a bit.
We got a lot of four starsreviews from a lot of different
publications, and I'm verygrateful.
But I believe, and I, I trulybelieve this, that I.
A reviewer should not be able togive you one star or four stars
(06:31):
based on one visit.
Yeah.
Should have to be at least twovisits.
You, you, you have to visit aplace on different nights and
different kinds of nights.
Right?
Because for a lot ofrestaurants, Tuesdays very
different than Saturday.
here's another thing that wasdifferent back then.
Then today.
So today we have influencers andwe have the, the general views,
but influencers, let's rememberabout influencers.
Now I'm gonna piss off theinfluencers.
Our, our scores are gonna godown.
(06:52):
Influencers are paid most of thetime now.
Mm-hmm.
there's been a couple ofarticles in, uh, is the Age of
the Influencer over the FinePair Podcast.
Just did a, a thing about that.
I saw that podcast.
I think the idea of aninfluencer and why it was
powerful was because this wassupposedly a civilian.
Mm-hmm.
Who was your avatar?
Who was your Every man, youradvocate?
Who went in and said, listen,this is, and now influencers are
(07:14):
largely paid.
Right.
So, and that doesn't mean theyhave any expertise, it just
means they have a following.
Well, it also means thatthey're, that they're no longer
acting as your advocate, right?
Yeah.
As you, as the, as a viewer.
I think that an influencershould be an influencer because
they're the advocate for theconsumer.
Yeah.
I agree.
Right?
If you're not paying, you're thecommodity.
it's a commercial instead ofbeing what it began as.
(07:36):
Yes.
Which was for the, customer.
Right.
For the end user.
that was why influencers becameimportant.
And what some influencers sayis, yeah, I get paid as a, but I
would never take anybody that Ididn't believe in.
And some of them are probablytelling the truth, but what used
to happen was, I don't know ifyou remember, but even in the
more casual publications, therewas a wall.
(07:57):
Between the editorial side andthe advertising side, I think
some publications maybe didn'tobserve that wall.
We, I think one in particulardidn't do a great job observing
that wall.
Mm-hmm.
But the journalistic ethicswere.
How your review and who gotreviewed had nothing to do with
who was advertising in thepublication.
Yeah.
And that's what, that's onereason they were trustworthy.
Mm-hmm.
(08:17):
The, the way to sell the mostpapers in a restaurant review
was the second best way was tohave a top review, a four star
glowing review that sold a lotof papers.
Mm-hmm.
What sold more was to have anevil review that excoriated.
Yep.
A terrible restaurant.
People loved.
It was like watching a, a, a carwreck or something.
Well, restaurants for years haveknown this, right.
We've, we've known.
(08:39):
That the person who has a greattime in your restaurant is gonna
tell three friends about that.
Right?
Right.
The person who has a terribletime or an awful experience is
gonna tell 10 or 20 people.
It's one of the reasons thatrestaurants bend over backwards
to make sure people don't leavewith a totally negative
experience.
And it's, in the old days, thatwas not.
(09:00):
So you wouldn't write a review,but it was so you wouldn't tell
those 20 people about the awfulexperience you had in that
restaurant.
Well, and the other thing is,frankly, it's easier to be funny
when you're mocking someone.
thank you for all thoseopportunities, Francis?
I still remember, I have to say,I still remember some of the
meanest reviews in my life.
Of course you do.
Yeah.
The, okay, so it was, uh,somebody was reviewing, was it
(09:23):
Ruth?
Was Bill Grimes Who reviewed forthe New York time, he reviewed
Roy's, which was a prettysuccessful chain of restaurants
that started in Hawaii.
his opinion was that it didn'ttranslate to New York at the
time.
Mm-hmm.
And they didn't have the sameingredients and it wasn't very
well executed, and it justbecame a caricature of itself.
But he said, I remember he saidif, if clowns had a cuisine.
(09:47):
This would be it.
Yeah, that's, I thought that's atough line to have in your
review, and that was a veryexpensive restaurant.
It was a no star review.
Yeah.
They rarely gave no starreviews.
Satisfactory was no stars.
Satisfactory Just so you know,satisfactory means.
Not satisfactory means.
Satisfactory was no stars.
Four stars was the highest.
(10:07):
But I don't even remember.
It's like when you ask yourgirlfriend how's everything, and
she would say, fine.
Yeah, exactly.
It means not fine.
It means not fine.
Well, so satis, do you rememberthere was one grade below
satisfactory though?
Poor, poor.
There were very rarely you couldget a poor, and you know what
that was?
Minus negative one minus onenegative one star.
Really bad.
I'll always remember AnthonyGilio and I, I, who's a friend
(10:29):
of ours and, and has been onthis podcast he's a fantastic
writer and he wrote a review ofa restaurant in North Jersey.
I even forget what town.
It was not very long lived.
And the name of the restaurantwas 2 0 1.
Mm-hmm.
Do you remember?
2 0 1?
2 0 1 was named after the areacode.
Oh yeah.
That the restaurant was in andhe got like terrible service and
I don't remember exactly what itwas, but the review was
(10:51):
hysterical.
'cause he got slighted at everyturn in a very north Jersey
Sopranos kind of way before theSopranos.
And he said in the end somethinglike, I know the two oh one's,
the area code.
I wish I had the rest of thewaiter's number'cause I, so I
could call him because I can'tget him to come back to the
goddamn table.
And, uh, he said it much funnierthan I, but I, I remember that.
That's good.
You got, you got the gist.
(11:11):
Yeah.
Yeah, you did all right.
You did all right.
You made him proud.
Well, anyway, so there werepositives and negatives to the
time of expertise.
Things were very funny and I'mreally looking forward to
listening once again to thisconversation we had with Ruth
Reel at a different time and adifferent place.
And a woman who made it.
Big difference.
We'll be back in just a moment.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Good morning, mark.
Good morning, pal.
Mine.
Pal, isn't it a horse?
That's Palino.
Palomino.
That's actually a grape too.
It's a grape too.
Yeah.
Cool.
How doing, let's make that thelast bad joke
Speaker 3 (11:43):
of the day.
Uh, I doubt it.
Alright, well, we'll try.
I don't think so.
Alright.
Uh, Francis.
So I, I was really encouragedtoday when I saw you pulling up
in the stage left van.
Yeah.
I realize that you still don'thave your car back, but the one
thing I did realize as I'mwatching you drive this 18 foot
van here.
Yeah, yeah.
That the summon total of theseats of vehicles that you own
(12:05):
is three.
You own a two seat car, a oneseat motorcycle, three.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
And I'm driving a van.
I'm driving the stage left van,which we used to go to the fish
market.
It smells a little like fish forall you out there in radio Land.
The thing it's not good thingyou don't have the smell Amatic
Radio now,
Speaker 3 (12:21):
now the morning makes a little more sense to
Speaker 2 (12:23):
me.
Um, we have great guests today.
We sure do.
we have joining the show, RuthReel.
Uh, Ruth Reel was the restaurantcritic for the New York Times
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
For the national section.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
And she is now, uh, the editor in Chief of Gourmet
Magazine and she has alsowritten a book.
She's actually written severalbooks.
Francis, are you aware of that?
I am.
But her most recent book isabout her time at the New York
Times as the most powerfulrestaurant critic in the world
and the various disguises sheused and the people she
encountered.
Actually, a very, very fun read.
A tremendous, tremendous read.
(12:55):
I just finished it last nightand it's called Garlic and
Sapphires by Ruth Reisch.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
That's funny'cause I finished at about 8 45 this
morning.
Said, oh no, she's coming on theshow.
I gotta read the last 20 pages.
Last night's a relative term forus.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Ur.
Yes.
So, so stay tuned to talk to themost, the formerly, the most
powerful restaurant critic inthe world who changed the way
the New York Times reviews andchanged the way that New York
eats.
Speaker 6 (13:16):
We have Ms.
Ruth Reel on the line with us.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
Ruth, welcome to the show.
Speaker 6 (13:19):
Thanks.
Speaker 7 (13:19):
Great to be here.
Speaker 6 (13:21):
It's great to have you on the show.
We're so glad you came on.
We've, we've both read your bookand we both read many of your,
uh, reviews.
And, um, restaur read your readrestaurant reviews and
occasionally cringe and go, oh,you know, so it's a real
emotional rollercoaster ride.
The many of the words thatyou've written have taken us on
over the years.
Speaker 7 (13:40):
Good.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
Yeah,
Speaker 7 (13:40):
I like that.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
It's always, it's always the most fun though to
read the really great reviewsand the really, really skating
reviews.
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (13:49):
Yeah.
Everybody loves the bad ones.
Speaker 8 (13:51):
Are they more fun?
Speaker 7 (13:53):
Um, I.
I think, I think they're easier.
Mm-hmm.
They're not more fun.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it's very easy to benegative about a place.
It's, um, it's very scary to bereally positive.
Speaker 8 (14:09):
Mm-hmm.
Why is it scary?
Throw
Speaker 7 (14:11):
your heart over the fence,
Speaker 8 (14:12):
Uhhuh,
Speaker 7 (14:13):
and then you steal yourself for the hundreds of.
Letters you get from people whohave terrible experiences
mm-hmm.
In those restaurants that you'veloved.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 6 (14:23):
Well, don't you get as many terrible letters,
letters from someplace that youpan from people who love it?
Speaker 7 (14:28):
Not usually.
Really.
We rest returns are out there.
No one sticks up for us.
Well, you, you get, you know, afew.
But they're not as, um, angrymm-hmm.
As the ones from someone, youknow, who's just spent,
Speaker 5 (14:41):
who's just spent$400.
Speaker 7 (14:43):
Um, you know, they're, they're, it's their big
night out and you've ruined itfor them.
Mm-hmm.
You told them to go someplaceand it was terrible.
Speaker 5 (14:51):
Right.
Can, can we talk a little bitabout, uh.
A review actually that, that youtalk about in your book.
Uh, that, that for me changedthe way I, I look at restaurant
reviews for, for the rest of mylife that did both of the things
that we're talking about.
That lister review was just amomentous occasion, I think in
(15:11):
the restaurant world where you,and, and we should tell
everybody exactly what, whathappened there.
Speaker 6 (15:16):
The, the review I, it's in, it's, it's seared in my
brain.
Was it?
It was, it was a double reviewand it was, it was when.
Ruth first came to New York asthe restaurant critic and she
still was unknown and had goneto ER in disguise when they had,
there were a four starrestaurant.
And it was called the two viewsof, the dinner is an unknown
diner and dinner is a mostfavored patron.
(15:36):
Right.
And Ruth wrote this doublereview of what it was like
before she got spotted as a NewYork Times restaurant critic and
what she got spotted after.
And what and what the end ofyour, your review, you said
basically.
But if you're somebody and youget a check next to your name in
the reservation book, go.
Speaker 5 (15:48):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
Uh, but if you're a nobody, maybe your 90 bucks is
better spent elsewhere.
And
Speaker 5 (15:52):
that was just, it was great.
and I remember at the time youtalking about the, the
raspberries that got whiskedaway from under your nose.
Right.
As right as they were about tobe served to you.
As soon as somebody recognizedthat you, you were the New York
Times restaurant critic.
And I remember reading it at thetime, just, just being totally
in awe of, of that, of you,
Speaker 6 (16:10):
Ruth.
What, what were theramifications of that review?
I mean, did that was a total,has that ever been done before?
Speaker 7 (16:16):
Not that I know of, but it, I mean, the genesis of
it was that for years I wouldcome to New York.
I was in, I was a restaurantcritic at the LA Times, and
people would say, do you wannago to er?
And I would say, no, I'm notknown there.
Speaker 8 (16:28):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (16:29):
And everybody understood that, that it was a
restaurant that you went to ifyou were known, and um.
So when I suddenly had to reviewit and I knew that they had a
photograph of me and knew what Ilooked like.
Mm-hmm.
And so I, um, did the first ofwhat turned out to be many
disguises and went in there asthis, um, humble, Midwestern
(16:56):
woman.
Speaker 9 (16:57):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (16:58):
And was treated, I mean, two women and we are
treated, you know, just the wayyou don't wanna be treated in a
restaurant.
Speaker 9 (17:07):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (17:07):
Um, you wait a long time for your table, you get a
terrible table in the back.
The waiter, very lengthly,announces the specials to the
person.
Seated to the right of you, butcompletely neglect to tell you
about any special.
Speaker 8 (17:21):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (17:21):
And of course, you know my favorite moment just
'cause it was so irritating.
Speaker 8 (17:25):
I know what you're gonna say.
Go ahead.
Speaker 7 (17:27):
The wine list.
I know the wine list is one ofthose, you know, giant toes that
takes a half an hour to readthrough.
And I have it for exactly oneminute before it snatched out of
my hand by the waiter and givento a man,
Speaker 6 (17:40):
they gave her the wine list.
Then took it away from her togive it to a man, give it back
to her.
It was a beautiful thing,
Speaker 5 (17:45):
Ruth.
Well, I, I think that, that oneof the things that everybody
enjoyed about that review iswe've all been to restaurants,
E, even Francis and I are in therestaurant business, but if you
don't know the right person atthe right place, sometimes you
can just be treated.
And, and nobody wants to go anddrop a lot of money in a
restaurant and be treatedawfully.
Speaker 7 (18:04):
No, I mean, as Molly, the, my disguise mm-hmm.
Ends up saying, um, you know,I've come here for a glamorous
evening.
Right.
And I've been humiliated.
Speaker 6 (18:16):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You know, it's funny.
First of all, what I wanna sayabout that review is.
That really said Ruth reels inthe house.
Okay.
There's a new critic in town andhere I am.
And you took a star away fromthem, right?
I did.
Yeah.
And, and I thought you shouldhave taken two.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
Yeah, I both, I remember when Francis, because
actually Francis handed me thisreview and said, you have to
read this review.
It's the best review I've ever,I've ever read, ever.
And he handed me the review atthe time and said, you have to
read this review.
And it, it really, I think youstunned the restaurant world
and, and for the better all tothe good.
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (18:48):
Well, the thing that was so amazing to me is that
when I actually showed up asmyself and I showed up 45
minutes early for a reservation.
Speaker 9 (18:59):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (18:59):
And he, I, it was just, you know, a stroke of
amazing good fortune that Syriao says as he's leading me to the
table.
Speaker 8 (19:09):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 7 (19:10):
It's my favorite line that, oh, mine too.
Have it memorized.
The King of Spain is waiting inthe bar, but your table
Speaker 8 (19:18):
is ready.
Speaker 6 (19:21):
I love that line.
But the King of Spain was reallywaiting at the bar, wasn't he?
Speaker 7 (19:25):
He was really waiting at the bar.
Speaker 6 (19:26):
He was.
I didn't know that until I readthe book, because I read that.
I thought he was he usinghyperbole.
Mm-hmm.
When I read the review.
But then I read the book and Ifound out that the King of Spain
really was waiting at the bar.
He really
Speaker 7 (19:37):
was.
And I, you know, I, I.
Took my very elegant nephew withme and I said, oh yeah, sure.
And Johnny turned around andsaid, no, no, that is the king
of name.
I saw him on TV last night.
Speaker 5 (19:50):
I, I'll tell you what, what I really, really
enjoyed about the book, and, andFrancis and I obviously read
your reviews through throughoutyour tenure, uh, at the times.
But what I really enjoyed aboutthe book.
Was seeing your perspective andseeing the critic's perspective.
Obviously as, as restaurantowners, we've always had the,
the restaurant owners'perspective of trying to, to do
all these things, a to impressyour patrons and, and trying to,
(20:11):
to level the playing field.
Although, although I'm abeliever that your, your.
Patrons who come and visit youevery week deserve a, a little
bit of extra attention and alittle bit of, of, of feeling
like they're a, a special patronat the same time.
You can't do that to thedetriment of, of your other
patrons.
Can I say
Speaker 7 (20:29):
the thing that that amazes me about restaurants is.
I'm stunned at how easy it is tobe nice.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, everybody understandsthat sometimes you have people
who you can't get up from thetable.
Speaker 8 (20:46):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That
Speaker 7 (20:47):
you've booked a nine o'clock reservation and the
people who've been sitting theresince six 30, um, have paid
their check, but they won't getup.
Speaker 8 (20:55):
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (20:56):
You know, we all understand that that happens and
it's so easy, it seems to me tosay to people, I'm so sorry.
Um, we really, I.
Uh, we're really unhappy aboutthis, that your table isn't
ready.
Um, you know, can we give you aglass of
Speaker 8 (21:13):
wine?
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (21:14):
An apology goes so far instead of what you get 90%
of the time is, you know, whywould you think your table would
be ready when?
Mm-hmm.
You reserved.
Speaker 5 (21:24):
The, the problem with that, Ruth, is you actually have
to be sorry for it to comeacross the fact that you're
sorry,
Speaker 6 (21:30):
you know, and all the, all the money that a
respiratory spends on plates andglassware and linen and
sculptures and all that stuff.
If it's, if they gotta be, I'llgo to a dive where they're nice
to me.
Mm-hmm.
Before I go to a fancy schmancyrestaurant where they're
haughty.
I mean, I don't go there for youto treat me like I'm haughty.
I go to buy into the glamor, youknow?
Mm-hmm.
And I think that you had a realeffect on the whole New York
restaurant community and madethe restaurant community more
(21:52):
aware of that.
And I would like to talk withyou more about that.
I have to take, we have to takea short break, but I wanna come
back and talk with you about howyou changed how New York Eats.
Will you just stick around withus?
I will super.
We'll be back with Ruth Reel, aformer restaurant critic of the
New York Times, author of thenew book, uh, garlic and
Sapphires, and editor-in-chiefof Gourmet Magazine.
In just a moment, you'relistening to the Restaurant
Guys, you're back with therestaurant guys and we're
(22:12):
talking with Ruth Reel, authorof the new book, uh, garlic and
Sapphires, also editor in chiefof Gourmet Magazine and was the
longtime restaurant critic.
For the New York Times, the mostpowerful restaurant critic in
the world.
Um, Ruth with that, with thatfirst review that of Le Cirque,
the two views of Ruth Reel, andthen there on by, you know,
your, your, uh, predecessor hadpretty much stuck to French
(22:33):
inspired European continentalrestaurants above 14th Street,
and you started going to Koreanbarbecues and.
Sushi places, Japanese noodlehouses.
And you changed the way that theTimes reviews and you changed
the way that New York Eats.
What, how did you do that?
I mean, what effect do you thinkyou had on, on New York dining,
or do you think that was cominganyway and you just reflected
it?
Speaker 7 (22:52):
I think it was probably coming anyway.
I mean, I think, um, I showed uphere just at a time, I mean,
with this very Californiasensibility since I'd been
living in California for 20years and you know, this real
passionate interest in Asianfood and a real sense of the
kind of informality that wascoming in restaurants.
(23:15):
That, you know, it was, um,really California.
It was, you know, people likeWolfgang Puck who said, wait a
minute, things have changed.
Rich people don't particularlywanna dress up anymore to go out
to eat, and we can, you know,develop this new, more casual
style and we can expand themenu.
(23:38):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 9 (23:38):
We,
Speaker 7 (23:38):
you know, really pay attention to, um, Asian cuisines
that have never.
Really infringed on high, highdining.
Speaker 5 (23:49):
Well, you know, Ruth, I think that a, I think you may
not be giving yourself enoughcredit there,'cause I,'cause I
think, I do think that yourreviews had a, had a big part of
that.
But one of the things that theyalso had a big part I believe in
changing was, and Francisalluded to this before when he
talked about the, thehaughtiness of, of that New York
maitre d or New York waiter and.
(24:10):
We've seen a lot of that changeover the last 15 years, and I do
think it's a reflection of, ofdiners, but I also think it's a
reflection of, Hey, I'm gonnaget panned if, if I, if I come
across with, with the wrongattitude to the wrong person.
And I, and I think that was areally good thing.
Speaker 7 (24:24):
Yeah.
Well, I think there's noquestion that everybody knowing
that I was going out indisguises and that, that, you
know, frumpy little old lady,um, you just dis that might show
up.
In print.
Speaker 6 (24:37):
Love that.
It's, um,
Speaker 7 (24:38):
you know, I think it, I think it terrified people.
Mm-hmm.
Well, sure.
Speaker 6 (24:41):
Every time they walked by Leer, they saw Sir
MA's head on a spike, and theythought, and they thought, be
careful.
Ruth Rice may be here indisguise.
And I think, but that did a lot.
My parents used say, well, we'renot going out to dinner in New
York because they had beenmistreated.
My dad's a fireman.
Right.
You know, and it's like, youknow, he would go and, you know,
we always say about the way we,we do our restaurant, you know,
(25:01):
there are people that come intoour restaurant that can afford
to eat there every night, andthere are people that save up
their pennies to come there.
Once a year or twice a year,once a month.
And those people, it's almostmore important to make sure that
they have a great time.
Exactly.
Because it's more important partof their, their lives.
Well, we had,
Speaker 5 (25:14):
yesterday we were celebrating graduation and, and
I told, I had a meeting with thestaff before.
I said, you're gonna have dinerstonight that have never eaten in
a restaurant like this before.
You need to make sure that theyhave a special time and that
their evening is perfect.
This is, this is a graduationday.
It's a very important memory forthem.
Speaker 7 (25:31):
Well that's, I mean that's, I wish every
restaurateur felt that, becauseI do believe that you have a
kind of contract with yourguests.
Mm-hmm.
Sure.
That you're gonna give them morethan just good food.
And I think that's the thingthat I really changed was that,
um, I really.
Believe that restaurants arekind of theater.
(25:51):
Yeah.
And uh, instead of just focusingon what was on the plate, I
really talked about the theaterof dining.
Mm-hmm.
and I think that that was a bigchange.
Speaker 6 (26:01):
Well, it's the whole experience, and I think I
remember that people reallyrebelled when you started
writing about the wholerestaurant experience.
They said, focus on the food,focus on the wine, as if it's
some sort of a contest.
And we talk about the samething.
We talk about the a hundredpoint scale with wine a lot, and
the, the sort of, the problemwith using such a severe
shorthand.
I want, can I read a little bitfrom your book?
Sure.
Uh, there's a quote in here thatI love.
It's, it's your husband.
Talking to you that you quote inthe book.
(26:22):
He says, I remember that whenyou got into this, it was almost
a spiritual thing with you.
You love to eat, you love towrite, you love the generosity
of cooks and what happens aroundthe table when a great meal is
served.
And so that's sort of the, I Ithink the guiding principle now
is it's, it is the wholeexperience that's important.
Speaker 7 (26:38):
I.
Right.
And I think it always has been.
It just, it needed someone topoint it out and say, mm-hmm.
You know, if you have had a, aterrible time, if you've been
treated badly, uh, it doesn'tmatter how good the food is.
Mm-hmm.
The evening is ruined.
Speaker 6 (26:52):
Yeah.
You, you know, we had heardrumors and, and here we are, uh,
asking you in person, we'd heardrumors that when you first came
to the Times, you, you sort ofdidn't like the star structure
that you, that the Times hadconsidered abandoning that.
Is there any truth to thatrumor?
Speaker 7 (27:05):
I hated the star structure.
Mm-hmm.
And actually had a discussion atone point with Joe Eve about it,
and he said, well, we'llentertain the notion of getting
rid of it if you want.
And I said, look, as a writer,I.
I loathe it because look.
Speaker 9 (27:20):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (27:21):
I really want people to read the reviews.
And if people open up thenewspaper and see one star and
go, well, I'm not gonna read aone star review, why would I
give anybody one star?
Speaker 5 (27:30):
Oh, I always read the One Star reviews, Ruth, on the
Satisfac piece and the Pores,because they Painful news.
That box tree review was just,oh, well, that everybody liked
that.
Well, that's what I
Speaker 7 (27:39):
made.
The one stars be not good.
So people would read them.
Speaker 8 (27:43):
Right.
And then, you know, two
Speaker 7 (27:44):
stars you'd read.
'cause maybe it'd be arestaurant you'd wanna go to.
Speaker 8 (27:47):
Right.
Speaker 7 (27:48):
But, um, you know, as I said to him as an editor.
I think you'd be crazy to getrid of the star system.
Mm-hmm.
Because it gives the paper a lotof clout.
Speaker 8 (27:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (27:58):
Every time you write a four star review, you know,
some it gets press all over theworld.
Ah, new four star restaurant inNew York.
So why would the paper give itup?
Right.
And after all the paper istrying to sell newspapers with
those reviews.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
Is, is that extra pressure for you?
I mean, the difference betweenone to four stars could mean
tens of millions of dollars for,for a restaurant.
Is, is that extra pressure foryou to.
be more careful with how you'rereviewing and maybe not give
somebody one star who maydeserve it or not.
Speaker 7 (28:28):
Um, I mean, the pressure is always there and
it's not so much about the STARsystem.
I mean, the, the, the pressurewith the STAR system for me was
I.
Um, you don't want to givepeople unreasonable
expectations.
Mm-hmm.
So I always felt it was betterfor a restaurant to write a
glowing review with two starsand have them say, oh, she's
(28:48):
crazy.
You know, um, this is a threestar restaurant.
Speaker 9 (28:51):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (28:52):
Then write a three star review and have people go
in and say, is she, is sheinsane?
This is a three star restaurant.
Right.
Um, you, you have to think aboutthe impact.
You know, how people are gonna.
Take that in.
So if you write a piece thatreally makes people wanna go
there,
Speaker 6 (29:11):
that's the most important thing.
Speaker 7 (29:12):
That's the most important
Speaker 6 (29:14):
thing when when we come back, I wanna ask you a
question.
We have a lot of restaurateur inour listening audience, and I
wanna ask you a question that'srelevant to them.
(29:38):
So Ruth, this is a short segmentand again, we're talking with
Ruth Reel, uh, editor-in-chiefof Gourmet Magazine, who was the
restaurant critic for the NewYork Times and has a new book
out called Garlic and Sapphires,which you can find out more
about by signing onto ourwebsite
Speaker 5 (29:48):
Entertaining insightful book.
Speaker 6 (29:49):
And you can find out more about more to buy this book
on our website later on Um.
Ruth?
Yes.
As a restaurateur, we had anexperience years ago where I
recognized a, prominent localrestaurant critic, and I just, I
know who the person is.
I served her well.
She,
Speaker 5 (30:01):
she had introduced herself to us a few times on
several occasions,
Speaker 6 (30:03):
case and I, you know what?
I, I'm the maitre DI walked overand I said, oh, hello, Ms.
Blank.
Uh, how are you?
And, and she was mad at me andhas never written a kind word
about me since.
And I, I've seen her socially.
What is a restaur?
I mean, yes, I, I see why youwant to be in disguise, but what
do you think that the, if you'rea restaur.
You spot the restaurant criticin the dining room.
My inclination is to go over andsay hello.
(30:24):
Like I say hello to everybody inmy dining room.
Speaker 7 (30:26):
Well, you probably shouldn't.
Yeah, I'm
Speaker 6 (30:29):
we're sure of that.
Now.
I should have been born in theMidwest.
Um,
Speaker 7 (30:32):
I'll tell you why.
I assume that this person waswith other people.
Speaker 6 (30:36):
One other person who I also knew, right.
Um.
Speaker 7 (30:39):
Because it, it was odd.
I did a restaurant radio show inChicago a few weeks ago, and
this is some, the, the person Iwas with had been reviewing
restaurants in Chicago for 16years, and he assured me and his
audience that nobody in Chicagoknew who he was.
Well, I mean, that's ridiculous,right?
(30:59):
Of course, they know who he is,but he has this pose that nobody
knows who he is, that he doesn'thave to wear a disguise.
Nobody has a clue who he is, andevery time you go up and say
hello in front of other people,mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
You are putting the lie to thatuhhuh.
So, you know, my notion is youjust, you treat them very, very
well and pretend you don't knowthem.
Speaker 5 (31:19):
Yeah.
That, I mean, that was it.
I felt like I would be a bad,and I just an example, I felt
like I would be a bad maitre dhaving at the, at this
particular reviewer at the endof when, when they're doing a
review, and I've been in thebusiness for about 20 years now.
And when, when she would finisha review when she was on her
last visit, she would give you acredit card with her real name
on it.
And that was kind of hersignature of, of how she would
(31:40):
let you know that you, that thatwas the last visit that you were
done and you were going to bereviewed.
Frankly, I thought that I wouldbe a, a bad maitre d if you've
introduced yourself to me fivetimes over the last 15 years,
and I don't remember any.
Speaker 7 (31:51):
Well, it's a very odd situation.
I've never heard of anyone, um,who planned to keep the job for
more than two years.
Speaker 5 (31:58):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (31:58):
Actually introducing themselves to rest return.
Right.
Well, like I said,
Speaker 5 (32:01):
this person didn't introduce themselves, but they
gave you a credit card.
Well, well, that's the samething, right?
Yeah.
It really
Speaker 6 (32:05):
is.
Hey Ruth, we wanna thank you fortaking time outta your busy
schedule at Gourmet to be withus and talk about your book,
which we recommend that everyoneshould go out and buy today.
What, what a
Speaker 5 (32:12):
delightful time we've had with you, Ruth, really
appreciate it.
Speaker 7 (32:14):
Thank you very much.
My pleasure.
I, I
Speaker 5 (32:15):
hope you'll come back and do it again with us
sometime.
Speaker 7 (32:17):
Gladly.
Alright, take care.
Okay, thanks.
Bye.
Bye-Bye.
Thanks very
Speaker 5 (32:19):
much.
That was Ruth Reisch, everybody,editor in chief of Gourmet
Magazine former restaurantcritic of the New York Times and
author of the new book, garlicand Sapphires.
And the book is great and
Speaker 6 (32:29):
fun and funny and she reprints, she has recipes in the
book.
Mm-hmm.
She has.
Uh, whole reviews her bestreviews in the book and excerpts
from her reviews, and she talksabout the amusing things that
happen.
As those reviews went on, myfavorite, my favorite.
You know, you gotta, like, eventhough I'm aur I feel sympathy,
but when, when she panssomebody, it's, it's funnier.
It's just, it sells more papers.
Her, my favorite quote is, uh,when she reviewed Tavern on the
(32:51):
Green very poorly and she quotesit as a guest of her saying it
was a museum of things that shenever have been made.
Yeah.
That's great.
Speaker 5 (32:58):
I just need to read it RA quick.
Today the box tree is apretentious place serving.
Fancy, not very good continentalfood for$86 a person price fix.
But one thing has changed.
The service used to be genial.
Inattentive.
Now it is as pretentious as thesetting ouchie.
Speaker 6 (33:13):
Ouch.
Fun book read.
Go out and buy garlic andsapphires.
You're listening to therestaurant guys.
I'm Francis Sha.
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurant guys.
Central Jersey 1450.
Time is 12 noon.
Hello everybody and welcome.
You are listening to theRestaurant Guys.
I'm Mark Pascal and I'm herewith Francis Shot.
Together we own stage left inCaptain Lombardi restaurants in
New Brunswick, New Jersey.
We're here to bring you theinside track on food, wine, and
the finer things in life.
Hello, mark.
Hey Francis.
How are you?
Hello, listeners.
We have an unusual show today.
So you know how normally onTuesdays we release a new show.
(00:32):
Thursday as we release a showfrom the archives Today we have
a small interview with RuthReel, who was the New York Times
restaurant critic for a longtime.
She's one of our favoritecritics, and she was one of the
most important critics ever towrite for the most important
newspaper, restaurant review atthe time.
This is from 2005, and she'ssmart and fun and funny, and
what you did was historicallyimportant.
(00:53):
even for us here in New Jersey,the New Jersey section, New York
Times.
Was the most important review wecould get.
Yeah.
Well she's great and we lookforward to talking to her later.
And it's a, an interesting lookat history and an important time
and a really intelligent lady.
She has a podcast of her ownthese days.
I know that's out theresomewhere.
She's a smart, smart person tolisten to.
It's not quite as good as thisone, but it's, it's you what
could be Mark, what could be,you know?
(01:15):
I think we also need to set thisshow up a little bit because
it's a very different world 20years later, right?
There was no Yelp.
There was no Google.
There was city search.com, whichwasn't that widely listened to.
I mean, we look at, we look atnow where you can go on and look
at somebody's Yelp review.
You can look at their Googlereviews, you can look at their,
their open table reviews.
You can look on resi, you canlook in a million different
(01:36):
places and hear a milliondifferent voices.
And there are still peoplereviewing restaurants, but their
voices are one of many.
Instead of one of, one of the,right, one of thousands and tens
of thousands or one of three.
But the other thing is that youhad some really, you had some
critics who didn't really know alot.
Mm-hmm.
But they were okay.
They knew.
Knew at least something.
(01:56):
But you had critics who reallywere foodies.
I mean, the New York Timesrestaurant critic, that was
Frank Rooney, Ruth Reel.
All those guys, they really,Craig Warn, I mean all the
people who came before them too,they really knew Gail Green, New
York Magazine, Craig Labon inPhiladelphia, Anthony Gilio, who
wrote for Cranes, New Yorkbusiness and a number of other
publications.
These people really knew whatthey were talking about.
So you were held to a highstandard.
(02:17):
but the, the review came out andthat was it.
You didn't get reviewed againfor years.
Mm-hmm.
And they were so important tous.
And I remember that Jeff MilgramYep.
Was a reviewer, was thereviewer.
And he, they came in anonymouslywas it a first month or so?
Oh, it was way too early to, tobe getting a review.
So he came in and he stood up atthe end of his meal.
He said, I'm Jeff Milgram fromthe Home News.
(02:38):
And we went, huh.
You know, oh no.
And uh, he said, this was great.
And we, we knew it was comingout.
the following Wednesday.
Mm-hmm.
after work, we were open tilltwo in the morning.
Back then we went back to myhouse on Hartwell Street where
the whole staff is in my livingroom.
We're drinking beers waiting forthe newspaper to come out, i.
and then eventually we, we droveto the newspaper plant'cause it
(02:58):
was here in, this area.
Mm-hmm.
And grabbed the newspaper as itleft to go on the trucks.
But we were petrified.
I mean, it was our first review.
We'd been open for six weeksmaybe.
I mean, it was literally thefirst summer we were open and it
was so important to our lives.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I, I don't rememberthe review from five years ago.
(03:19):
I don't remember that much aboutit, but that review that
happened 33 years ago, I canquote it.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, I can quote that becauseFrancis used to be the mare D
one day, and I would be thebartender and then he would be
the bartender the next day, andI would be the mare d And I will
never forget.
And we know which one he wastalking about.
when he said the jovial barrelchested bartender, no one, no
(03:42):
one has ever accused me of beingbarrel chested and only
occasionally jovial.
I'm the jovial one.
You are.
You don't have to listen to thisshow a lot to not My favorite
was jovial one in an earlierview.
I forget which one.
Maybe you can enlighten me.
I remember one of the criticsreferred to something as
Luscious.
That's the same review.
Yeah.
Jeff Milgram.
Yeah.
But he wasn't talking aboutMark, but Mark adopted the
nickname Luscious for about ayear and a half.
I said, if anyone wants to callme Luscious, that is an
(04:04):
acceptable nickname.
No one took him up on it, but hereminded us all the time.
And then, but I remember whenthe New York Times, review first
came out and we got two starsfrom them within a year of
opening about three stars 18months thereafter.
But I remember one of thosetimes we went back to my house
in New Brunswick.
Just the whole staff came backand we're sitting on my couch
drinking, waiting for the homedelivery, at like five in the
(04:25):
morning to my house.
waiting for the paperboard tothrow it up on the porch.
And then we scrambled out and,and read our review that we were
delighted to receive.
And that's what would happen.
We would have these, thesereview parties.
We'd, you know, we'd close therestaurant at two o'clock in the
morning and we'd go back tosomebody's house.
Usually Francis, he lived herein town.
20 of us would go back and havea party and open a couple
(04:46):
bottles of wine, maybe more thana couple bottles of wine.
It was like, wait, have somecocktails.
It was like waiting for thetheater reviews.
You realize it was exactly likethat.
If, you have a memory of that oryou've ever seen a movie of
that, it was exactly like thatthe thing was people used to
keep those reviews for a longtime and so.
I remember people would likeput, if they wanted to go to a
restaurant, they'd cut it outthe article.
Mm-hmm.
And stick it on theirrefrigerator with a magnet or
(05:06):
keep it in a file, and peoplewould turn up with a review with
a dish that you haven't made intwo years saying, I want the
macadamia and crusted tuna withmangoes.
You're like.
Man that went off the menu threeand a half years ago, and I, I
don't have any mangos.
And that chef and that chefdoesn't even work here anymore.
That's exactly.
But uh, they'd be shocked.
Well, also because Americanrestaurants had been, the menu
(05:26):
is the menu.
It never changes.
And we were one of the firstseasonal farm to table seasonal
restaurant.
Right.
So literally the entire menuwould turn over every three
months For the season.
And then specials would be, youknow, the thing like
strawberries that were good fortwo weeks or whatever the,
whatever the ingredient was,and, and that people weren't
used to that.
But I, I have to say positives,there were, intelligent, good
(05:47):
writers who knew about foodwriting, news, reviews,
negatives.
Let's look at some of thedownsides So the New York Times
used to come in on a full budgetthree times.
So they, they were sure that youwere getting a, fair shake at
it.
Some publications they'd paytheir reviewers to come in.
Once you come in on a bad night,everybody's got a bad night.
You know, everybody has one badexperience That was unfair.
Mm-hmm.
Um, never happened to us, thankGod.
(06:08):
But, you know, could, you'reliving fear of like the, the
waiter you're about to fire thechefs Last night, So anyway, so
that was a downside.
We were the beneficiaries ofthis quite a bit.
We got a lot of four starsreviews from a lot of different
publications, and I'm verygrateful.
But I believe, and I, I trulybelieve this, that I.
A reviewer should not be able togive you one star or four stars
(06:31):
based on one visit.
Yeah.
Should have to be at least twovisits.
You, you, you have to visit aplace on different nights and
different kinds of nights.
Right?
Because for a lot ofrestaurants, Tuesdays very
different than Saturday.
here's another thing that wasdifferent back then.
Then today.
So today we have influencers andwe have the, the general views,
but influencers, let's rememberabout influencers.
Now I'm gonna piss off theinfluencers.
Our, our scores are gonna godown.
(06:52):
Influencers are paid most of thetime now.
Mm-hmm.
there's been a couple ofarticles in, uh, is the Age of
the Influencer over the FinePair Podcast.
Just did a, a thing about that.
I saw that podcast.
I think the idea of aninfluencer and why it was
powerful was because this wassupposedly a civilian.
Mm-hmm.
Who was your avatar?
Who was your Every man, youradvocate?
Who went in and said, listen,this is, and now influencers are
(07:14):
largely paid.
Right.
So, and that doesn't mean theyhave any expertise, it just
means they have a following.
Well, it also means thatthey're, that they're no longer
acting as your advocate, right?
Yeah.
As you, as the, as a viewer.
I think that an influencershould be an influencer because
they're the advocate for theconsumer.
Yeah.
I agree.
Right?
If you're not paying, you're thecommodity.
it's a commercial instead ofbeing what it began as.
(07:36):
Yes.
Which was for the, customer.
Right.
For the end user.
that was why influencers becameimportant.
And what some influencers sayis, yeah, I get paid as a, but I
would never take anybody that Ididn't believe in.
And some of them are probablytelling the truth, but what used
to happen was, I don't know ifyou remember, but even in the
more casual publications, therewas a wall.
(07:57):
Between the editorial side andthe advertising side, I think
some publications maybe didn'tobserve that wall.
We, I think one in particulardidn't do a great job observing
that wall.
Mm-hmm.
But the journalistic ethicswere.
How your review and who gotreviewed had nothing to do with
who was advertising in thepublication.
Yeah.
And that's what, that's onereason they were trustworthy.
Mm-hmm.
(08:17):
The, the way to sell the mostpapers in a restaurant review
was the second best way was tohave a top review, a four star
glowing review that sold a lotof papers.
Mm-hmm.
What sold more was to have anevil review that excoriated.
Yep.
A terrible restaurant.
People loved.
It was like watching a, a, a carwreck or something.
Well, restaurants for years haveknown this, right.
We've, we've known.
(08:39):
That the person who has a greattime in your restaurant is gonna
tell three friends about that.
Right?
Right.
The person who has a terribletime or an awful experience is
gonna tell 10 or 20 people.
It's one of the reasons thatrestaurants bend over backwards
to make sure people don't leavewith a totally negative
experience.
And it's, in the old days, thatwas not.
(09:00):
So you wouldn't write a review,but it was so you wouldn't tell
those 20 people about the awfulexperience you had in that
restaurant.
Well, and the other thing is,frankly, it's easier to be funny
when you're mocking someone.
thank you for all thoseopportunities, Francis?
I still remember, I have to say,I still remember some of the
meanest reviews in my life.
Of course you do.
Yeah.
The, okay, so it was, uh,somebody was reviewing, was it
(09:23):
Ruth?
Was Bill Grimes Who reviewed forthe New York time, he reviewed
Roy's, which was a prettysuccessful chain of restaurants
that started in Hawaii.
his opinion was that it didn'ttranslate to New York at the
time.
Mm-hmm.
And they didn't have the sameingredients and it wasn't very
well executed, and it justbecame a caricature of itself.
But he said, I remember he saidif, if clowns had a cuisine.
(09:47):
This would be it.
Yeah, that's, I thought that's atough line to have in your
review, and that was a veryexpensive restaurant.
It was a no star review.
Yeah.
They rarely gave no starreviews.
Satisfactory was no stars.
Satisfactory Just so you know,satisfactory means.
Not satisfactory means.
Satisfactory was no stars.
Four stars was the highest.
(10:07):
But I don't even remember.
It's like when you ask yourgirlfriend how's everything, and
she would say, fine.
Yeah, exactly.
It means not fine.
It means not fine.
Well, so satis, do you rememberthere was one grade below
satisfactory though?
Poor, poor.
There were very rarely you couldget a poor, and you know what
that was?
Minus negative one minus onenegative one star.
Really bad.
I'll always remember AnthonyGilio and I, I, who's a friend
(10:29):
of ours and, and has been onthis podcast he's a fantastic
writer and he wrote a review ofa restaurant in North Jersey.
I even forget what town.
It was not very long lived.
And the name of the restaurantwas 2 0 1.
Mm-hmm.
Do you remember?
2 0 1?
2 0 1 was named after the areacode.
Oh yeah.
That the restaurant was in andhe got like terrible service and
I don't remember exactly what itwas, but the review was
(10:51):
hysterical.
'cause he got slighted at everyturn in a very north Jersey
Sopranos kind of way before theSopranos.
And he said in the end somethinglike, I know the two oh one's,
the area code.
I wish I had the rest of thewaiter's number'cause I, so I
could call him because I can'tget him to come back to the
goddamn table.
And, uh, he said it much funnierthan I, but I, I remember that.
That's good.
You got, you got the gist.
(11:11):
Yeah.
Yeah, you did all right.
You did all right.
You made him proud.
Well, anyway, so there werepositives and negatives to the
time of expertise.
Things were very funny and I'mreally looking forward to
listening once again to thisconversation we had with Ruth
Reel at a different time and adifferent place.
And a woman who made it.
Big difference.
We'll be back in just a moment.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Good morning, mark.
Good morning, pal.
Mine.
Pal, isn't it a horse?
That's Palino.
Palomino.
That's actually a grape too.
It's a grape too.
Yeah.
Cool.
How doing, let's make that thelast bad joke
Speaker 3 (11:43):
of the day.
Uh, I doubt it.
Alright, well, we'll try.
I don't think so.
Alright.
Uh, Francis.
So I, I was really encouragedtoday when I saw you pulling up
in the stage left van.
Yeah.
I realize that you still don'thave your car back, but the one
thing I did realize as I'mwatching you drive this 18 foot
van here.
Yeah, yeah.
That the summon total of theseats of vehicles that you own
(12:05):
is three.
You own a two seat car, a oneseat motorcycle, three.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
And I'm driving a van.
I'm driving the stage left van,which we used to go to the fish
market.
It smells a little like fish forall you out there in radio Land.
The thing it's not good thingyou don't have the smell Amatic
Radio now,
Speaker 3 (12:21):
now the morning makes a little more sense to
Speaker 2 (12:23):
me.
Um, we have great guests today.
We sure do.
we have joining the show, RuthReel.
Uh, Ruth Reel was the restaurantcritic for the New York Times
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
For the national section.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
And she is now, uh, the editor in Chief of Gourmet
Magazine and she has alsowritten a book.
She's actually written severalbooks.
Francis, are you aware of that?
I am.
But her most recent book isabout her time at the New York
Times as the most powerfulrestaurant critic in the world
and the various disguises sheused and the people she
encountered.
Actually, a very, very fun read.
A tremendous, tremendous read.
(12:55):
I just finished it last nightand it's called Garlic and
Sapphires by Ruth Reisch.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
That's funny'cause I finished at about 8 45 this
morning.
Said, oh no, she's coming on theshow.
I gotta read the last 20 pages.
Last night's a relative term forus.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Ur.
Yes.
So, so stay tuned to talk to themost, the formerly, the most
powerful restaurant critic inthe world who changed the way
the New York Times reviews andchanged the way that New York
eats.
Speaker 6 (13:16):
We have Ms.
Ruth Reel on the line with us.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
Ruth, welcome to the show.
Speaker 6 (13:19):
Thanks.
Speaker 7 (13:19):
Great to be here.
Speaker 6 (13:21):
It's great to have you on the show.
We're so glad you came on.
We've, we've both read your bookand we both read many of your,
uh, reviews.
And, um, restaur read your readrestaurant reviews and
occasionally cringe and go, oh,you know, so it's a real
emotional rollercoaster ride.
The many of the words thatyou've written have taken us on
over the years.
Speaker 7 (13:40):
Good.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
Yeah,
Speaker 7 (13:40):
I like that.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
It's always, it's always the most fun though to
read the really great reviewsand the really, really skating
reviews.
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (13:49):
Yeah.
Everybody loves the bad ones.
Speaker 8 (13:51):
Are they more fun?
Speaker 7 (13:53):
Um, I.
I think, I think they're easier.
Mm-hmm.
They're not more fun.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it's very easy to benegative about a place.
It's, um, it's very scary to bereally positive.
Speaker 8 (14:09):
Mm-hmm.
Why is it scary?
Throw
Speaker 7 (14:11):
your heart over the fence,
Speaker 8 (14:12):
Uhhuh,
Speaker 7 (14:13):
and then you steal yourself for the hundreds of.
Letters you get from people whohave terrible experiences
mm-hmm.
In those restaurants that you'veloved.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 6 (14:23):
Well, don't you get as many terrible letters,
letters from someplace that youpan from people who love it?
Speaker 7 (14:28):
Not usually.
Really.
We rest returns are out there.
No one sticks up for us.
Well, you, you get, you know, afew.
But they're not as, um, angrymm-hmm.
As the ones from someone, youknow, who's just spent,
Speaker 5 (14:41):
who's just spent$400.
Speaker 7 (14:43):
Um, you know, they're, they're, it's their big
night out and you've ruined itfor them.
Mm-hmm.
You told them to go someplaceand it was terrible.
Speaker 5 (14:51):
Right.
Can, can we talk a little bitabout, uh.
A review actually that, that youtalk about in your book.
Uh, that, that for me changedthe way I, I look at restaurant
reviews for, for the rest of mylife that did both of the things
that we're talking about.
That lister review was just amomentous occasion, I think in
(15:11):
the restaurant world where you,and, and we should tell
everybody exactly what, whathappened there.
Speaker 6 (15:16):
The, the review I, it's in, it's, it's seared in my
brain.
Was it?
It was, it was a double reviewand it was, it was when.
Ruth first came to New York asthe restaurant critic and she
still was unknown and had goneto ER in disguise when they had,
there were a four starrestaurant.
And it was called the two viewsof, the dinner is an unknown
diner and dinner is a mostfavored patron.
(15:36):
Right.
And Ruth wrote this doublereview of what it was like
before she got spotted as a NewYork Times restaurant critic and
what she got spotted after.
And what and what the end ofyour, your review, you said
basically.
But if you're somebody and youget a check next to your name in
the reservation book, go.
Speaker 5 (15:48):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
Uh, but if you're a nobody, maybe your 90 bucks is
better spent elsewhere.
And
Speaker 5 (15:52):
that was just, it was great.
and I remember at the time youtalking about the, the
raspberries that got whiskedaway from under your nose.
Right.
As right as they were about tobe served to you.
As soon as somebody recognizedthat you, you were the New York
Times restaurant critic.
And I remember reading it at thetime, just, just being totally
in awe of, of that, of you,
Speaker 6 (16:10):
Ruth.
What, what were theramifications of that review?
I mean, did that was a total,has that ever been done before?
Speaker 7 (16:16):
Not that I know of, but it, I mean, the genesis of
it was that for years I wouldcome to New York.
I was in, I was a restaurantcritic at the LA Times, and
people would say, do you wannago to er?
And I would say, no, I'm notknown there.
Speaker 8 (16:28):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (16:29):
And everybody understood that, that it was a
restaurant that you went to ifyou were known, and um.
So when I suddenly had to reviewit and I knew that they had a
photograph of me and knew what Ilooked like.
Mm-hmm.
And so I, um, did the first ofwhat turned out to be many
disguises and went in there asthis, um, humble, Midwestern
(16:56):
woman.
Speaker 9 (16:57):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (16:58):
And was treated, I mean, two women and we are
treated, you know, just the wayyou don't wanna be treated in a
restaurant.
Speaker 9 (17:07):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (17:07):
Um, you wait a long time for your table, you get a
terrible table in the back.
The waiter, very lengthly,announces the specials to the
person.
Seated to the right of you, butcompletely neglect to tell you
about any special.
Speaker 8 (17:21):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (17:21):
And of course, you know my favorite moment just
'cause it was so irritating.
Speaker 8 (17:25):
I know what you're gonna say.
Go ahead.
Speaker 7 (17:27):
The wine list.
I know the wine list is one ofthose, you know, giant toes that
takes a half an hour to readthrough.
And I have it for exactly oneminute before it snatched out of
my hand by the waiter and givento a man,
Speaker 6 (17:40):
they gave her the wine list.
Then took it away from her togive it to a man, give it back
to her.
It was a beautiful thing,
Speaker 5 (17:45):
Ruth.
Well, I, I think that, that oneof the things that everybody
enjoyed about that review iswe've all been to restaurants,
E, even Francis and I are in therestaurant business, but if you
don't know the right person atthe right place, sometimes you
can just be treated.
And, and nobody wants to go anddrop a lot of money in a
restaurant and be treatedawfully.
Speaker 7 (18:04):
No, I mean, as Molly, the, my disguise mm-hmm.
Ends up saying, um, you know,I've come here for a glamorous
evening.
Right.
And I've been humiliated.
Speaker 6 (18:16):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You know, it's funny.
First of all, what I wanna sayabout that review is.
That really said Ruth reels inthe house.
Okay.
There's a new critic in town andhere I am.
And you took a star away fromthem, right?
I did.
Yeah.
And, and I thought you shouldhave taken two.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
Yeah, I both, I remember when Francis, because
actually Francis handed me thisreview and said, you have to
read this review.
It's the best review I've ever,I've ever read, ever.
And he handed me the review atthe time and said, you have to
read this review.
And it, it really, I think youstunned the restaurant world
and, and for the better all tothe good.
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (18:48):
Well, the thing that was so amazing to me is that
when I actually showed up asmyself and I showed up 45
minutes early for a reservation.
Speaker 9 (18:59):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (18:59):
And he, I, it was just, you know, a stroke of
amazing good fortune that Syriao says as he's leading me to the
table.
Speaker 8 (19:09):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 7 (19:10):
It's my favorite line that, oh, mine too.
Have it memorized.
The King of Spain is waiting inthe bar, but your table
Speaker 8 (19:18):
is ready.
Speaker 6 (19:21):
I love that line.
But the King of Spain was reallywaiting at the bar, wasn't he?
Speaker 7 (19:25):
He was really waiting at the bar.
Speaker 6 (19:26):
He was.
I didn't know that until I readthe book, because I read that.
I thought he was he usinghyperbole.
Mm-hmm.
When I read the review.
But then I read the book and Ifound out that the King of Spain
really was waiting at the bar.
He really
Speaker 7 (19:37):
was.
And I, you know, I, I.
Took my very elegant nephew withme and I said, oh yeah, sure.
And Johnny turned around andsaid, no, no, that is the king
of name.
I saw him on TV last night.
Speaker 5 (19:50):
I, I'll tell you what, what I really, really
enjoyed about the book, and, andFrancis and I obviously read
your reviews through throughoutyour tenure, uh, at the times.
But what I really enjoyed aboutthe book.
Was seeing your perspective andseeing the critic's perspective.
Obviously as, as restaurantowners, we've always had the,
the restaurant owners'perspective of trying to, to do
all these things, a to impressyour patrons and, and trying to,
(20:11):
to level the playing field.
Although, although I'm abeliever that your, your.
Patrons who come and visit youevery week deserve a, a little
bit of extra attention and alittle bit of, of, of feeling
like they're a, a special patronat the same time.
You can't do that to thedetriment of, of your other
patrons.
Can I say
Speaker 7 (20:29):
the thing that that amazes me about restaurants is.
I'm stunned at how easy it is tobe nice.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, everybody understandsthat sometimes you have people
who you can't get up from thetable.
Speaker 8 (20:46):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That
Speaker 7 (20:47):
you've booked a nine o'clock reservation and the
people who've been sitting theresince six 30, um, have paid
their check, but they won't getup.
Speaker 8 (20:55):
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (20:56):
You know, we all understand that that happens and
it's so easy, it seems to me tosay to people, I'm so sorry.
Um, we really, I.
Uh, we're really unhappy aboutthis, that your table isn't
ready.
Um, you know, can we give you aglass of
Speaker 8 (21:13):
wine?
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (21:14):
An apology goes so far instead of what you get 90%
of the time is, you know, whywould you think your table would
be ready when?
Mm-hmm.
You reserved.
Speaker 5 (21:24):
The, the problem with that, Ruth, is you actually have
to be sorry for it to comeacross the fact that you're
sorry,
Speaker 6 (21:30):
you know, and all the, all the money that a
respiratory spends on plates andglassware and linen and
sculptures and all that stuff.
If it's, if they gotta be, I'llgo to a dive where they're nice
to me.
Mm-hmm.
Before I go to a fancy schmancyrestaurant where they're
haughty.
I mean, I don't go there for youto treat me like I'm haughty.
I go to buy into the glamor, youknow?
Mm-hmm.
And I think that you had a realeffect on the whole New York
restaurant community and madethe restaurant community more
(21:52):
aware of that.
And I would like to talk withyou more about that.
I have to take, we have to takea short break, but I wanna come
back and talk with you about howyou changed how New York Eats.
Will you just stick around withus?
I will super.
We'll be back with Ruth Reel, aformer restaurant critic of the
New York Times, author of thenew book, uh, garlic and
Sapphires, and editor-in-chiefof Gourmet Magazine.
In just a moment, you'relistening to the Restaurant
Guys, you're back with therestaurant guys and we're
(22:12):
talking with Ruth Reel, authorof the new book, uh, garlic and
Sapphires, also editor in chiefof Gourmet Magazine and was the
longtime restaurant critic.
For the New York Times, the mostpowerful restaurant critic in
the world.
Um, Ruth with that, with thatfirst review that of Le Cirque,
the two views of Ruth Reel, andthen there on by, you know,
your, your, uh, predecessor hadpretty much stuck to French
(22:33):
inspired European continentalrestaurants above 14th Street,
and you started going to Koreanbarbecues and.
Sushi places, Japanese noodlehouses.
And you changed the way that theTimes reviews and you changed
the way that New York Eats.
What, how did you do that?
I mean, what effect do you thinkyou had on, on New York dining,
or do you think that was cominganyway and you just reflected
it?
Speaker 7 (22:52):
I think it was probably coming anyway.
I mean, I think, um, I showed uphere just at a time, I mean,
with this very Californiasensibility since I'd been
living in California for 20years and you know, this real
passionate interest in Asianfood and a real sense of the
kind of informality that wascoming in restaurants.
(23:15):
That, you know, it was, um,really California.
It was, you know, people likeWolfgang Puck who said, wait a
minute, things have changed.
Rich people don't particularlywanna dress up anymore to go out
to eat, and we can, you know,develop this new, more casual
style and we can expand themenu.
(23:38):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 9 (23:38):
We,
Speaker 7 (23:38):
you know, really pay attention to, um, Asian cuisines
that have never.
Really infringed on high, highdining.
Speaker 5 (23:49):
Well, you know, Ruth, I think that a, I think you may
not be giving yourself enoughcredit there,'cause I,'cause I
think, I do think that yourreviews had a, had a big part of
that.
But one of the things that theyalso had a big part I believe in
changing was, and Francisalluded to this before when he
talked about the, thehaughtiness of, of that New York
maitre d or New York waiter and.
(24:10):
We've seen a lot of that changeover the last 15 years, and I do
think it's a reflection of, ofdiners, but I also think it's a
reflection of, Hey, I'm gonnaget panned if, if I, if I come
across with, with the wrongattitude to the wrong person.
And I, and I think that was areally good thing.
Speaker 7 (24:24):
Yeah.
Well, I think there's noquestion that everybody knowing
that I was going out indisguises and that, that, you
know, frumpy little old lady,um, you just dis that might show
up.
In print.
Speaker 6 (24:37):
Love that.
It's, um,
Speaker 7 (24:38):
you know, I think it, I think it terrified people.
Mm-hmm.
Well, sure.
Speaker 6 (24:41):
Every time they walked by Leer, they saw Sir
MA's head on a spike, and theythought, and they thought, be
careful.
Ruth Rice may be here indisguise.
And I think, but that did a lot.
My parents used say, well, we'renot going out to dinner in New
York because they had beenmistreated.
My dad's a fireman.
Right.
You know, and it's like, youknow, he would go and, you know,
we always say about the way we,we do our restaurant, you know,
(25:01):
there are people that come intoour restaurant that can afford
to eat there every night, andthere are people that save up
their pennies to come there.
Once a year or twice a year,once a month.
And those people, it's almostmore important to make sure that
they have a great time.
Exactly.
Because it's more important partof their, their lives.
Well, we had,
Speaker 5 (25:14):
yesterday we were celebrating graduation and, and
I told, I had a meeting with thestaff before.
I said, you're gonna have dinerstonight that have never eaten in
a restaurant like this before.
You need to make sure that theyhave a special time and that
their evening is perfect.
This is, this is a graduationday.
It's a very important memory forthem.
Speaker 7 (25:31):
Well that's, I mean that's, I wish every
restaurateur felt that, becauseI do believe that you have a
kind of contract with yourguests.
Mm-hmm.
Sure.
That you're gonna give them morethan just good food.
And I think that's the thingthat I really changed was that,
um, I really.
Believe that restaurants arekind of theater.
(25:51):
Yeah.
And uh, instead of just focusingon what was on the plate, I
really talked about the theaterof dining.
Mm-hmm.
and I think that that was a bigchange.
Speaker 6 (26:01):
Well, it's the whole experience, and I think I
remember that people reallyrebelled when you started
writing about the wholerestaurant experience.
They said, focus on the food,focus on the wine, as if it's
some sort of a contest.
And we talk about the samething.
We talk about the a hundredpoint scale with wine a lot, and
the, the sort of, the problemwith using such a severe
shorthand.
I want, can I read a little bitfrom your book?
Sure.
Uh, there's a quote in here thatI love.
It's, it's your husband.
Talking to you that you quote inthe book.
(26:22):
He says, I remember that whenyou got into this, it was almost
a spiritual thing with you.
You love to eat, you love towrite, you love the generosity
of cooks and what happens aroundthe table when a great meal is
served.
And so that's sort of the, I Ithink the guiding principle now
is it's, it is the wholeexperience that's important.
Speaker 7 (26:38):
I.
Right.
And I think it always has been.
It just, it needed someone topoint it out and say, mm-hmm.
You know, if you have had a, aterrible time, if you've been
treated badly, uh, it doesn'tmatter how good the food is.
Mm-hmm.
The evening is ruined.
Speaker 6 (26:52):
Yeah.
You, you know, we had heardrumors and, and here we are, uh,
asking you in person, we'd heardrumors that when you first came
to the Times, you, you sort ofdidn't like the star structure
that you, that the Times hadconsidered abandoning that.
Is there any truth to thatrumor?
Speaker 7 (27:05):
I hated the star structure.
Mm-hmm.
And actually had a discussion atone point with Joe Eve about it,
and he said, well, we'llentertain the notion of getting
rid of it if you want.
And I said, look, as a writer,I.
I loathe it because look.
Speaker 9 (27:20):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (27:21):
I really want people to read the reviews.
And if people open up thenewspaper and see one star and
go, well, I'm not gonna read aone star review, why would I
give anybody one star?
Speaker 5 (27:30):
Oh, I always read the One Star reviews, Ruth, on the
Satisfac piece and the Pores,because they Painful news.
That box tree review was just,oh, well, that everybody liked
that.
Well, that's what I
Speaker 7 (27:39):
made.
The one stars be not good.
So people would read them.
Speaker 8 (27:43):
Right.
And then, you know, two
Speaker 7 (27:44):
stars you'd read.
'cause maybe it'd be arestaurant you'd wanna go to.
Speaker 8 (27:47):
Right.
Speaker 7 (27:48):
But, um, you know, as I said to him as an editor.
I think you'd be crazy to getrid of the star system.
Mm-hmm.
Because it gives the paper a lotof clout.
Speaker 8 (27:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (27:58):
Every time you write a four star review, you know,
some it gets press all over theworld.
Ah, new four star restaurant inNew York.
So why would the paper give itup?
Right.
And after all the paper istrying to sell newspapers with
those reviews.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
Is, is that extra pressure for you?
I mean, the difference betweenone to four stars could mean
tens of millions of dollars for,for a restaurant.
Is, is that extra pressure foryou to.
be more careful with how you'rereviewing and maybe not give
somebody one star who maydeserve it or not.
Speaker 7 (28:28):
Um, I mean, the pressure is always there and
it's not so much about the STARsystem.
I mean, the, the, the pressurewith the STAR system for me was
I.
Um, you don't want to givepeople unreasonable
expectations.
Mm-hmm.
So I always felt it was betterfor a restaurant to write a
glowing review with two starsand have them say, oh, she's
(28:48):
crazy.
You know, um, this is a threestar restaurant.
Speaker 9 (28:51):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (28:52):
Then write a three star review and have people go
in and say, is she, is sheinsane?
This is a three star restaurant.
Right.
Um, you, you have to think aboutthe impact.
You know, how people are gonna.
Take that in.
So if you write a piece thatreally makes people wanna go
there,
Speaker 6 (29:11):
that's the most important thing.
Speaker 7 (29:12):
That's the most important
Speaker 6 (29:14):
thing when when we come back, I wanna ask you a
question.
We have a lot of restaurateur inour listening audience, and I
wanna ask you a question that'srelevant to them.
(29:38):
So Ruth, this is a short segmentand again, we're talking with
Ruth Reel, uh, editor-in-chiefof Gourmet Magazine, who was the
restaurant critic for the NewYork Times and has a new book
out called Garlic and Sapphires,which you can find out more
about by signing onto ourwebsite
Speaker 5 (29:48):
Entertaining insightful book.
Speaker 6 (29:49):
And you can find out more about more to buy this book
on our website later on Um.
Ruth?
Yes.
As a restaurateur, we had anexperience years ago where I
recognized a, prominent localrestaurant critic, and I just, I
know who the person is.
I served her well.
She,
Speaker 5 (30:01):
she had introduced herself to us a few times on
several occasions,
Speaker 6 (30:03):
case and I, you know what?
I, I'm the maitre DI walked overand I said, oh, hello, Ms.
Blank.
Uh, how are you?
And, and she was mad at me andhas never written a kind word
about me since.
And I, I've seen her socially.
What is a restaur?
I mean, yes, I, I see why youwant to be in disguise, but what
do you think that the, if you'rea restaur.
You spot the restaurant criticin the dining room.
My inclination is to go over andsay hello.
(30:24):
Like I say hello to everybody inmy dining room.
Speaker 7 (30:26):
Well, you probably shouldn't.
Yeah, I'm
Speaker 6 (30:29):
we're sure of that.
Now.
I should have been born in theMidwest.
Um,
Speaker 7 (30:32):
I'll tell you why.
I assume that this person waswith other people.
Speaker 6 (30:36):
One other person who I also knew, right.
Um.
Speaker 7 (30:39):
Because it, it was odd.
I did a restaurant radio show inChicago a few weeks ago, and
this is some, the, the person Iwas with had been reviewing
restaurants in Chicago for 16years, and he assured me and his
audience that nobody in Chicagoknew who he was.
Well, I mean, that's ridiculous,right?
(30:59):
Of course, they know who he is,but he has this pose that nobody
knows who he is, that he doesn'thave to wear a disguise.
Nobody has a clue who he is, andevery time you go up and say
hello in front of other people,mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
You are putting the lie to thatuhhuh.
So, you know, my notion is youjust, you treat them very, very
well and pretend you don't knowthem.
Speaker 5 (31:19):
Yeah.
That, I mean, that was it.
I felt like I would be a bad,and I just an example, I felt
like I would be a bad maitre dhaving at the, at this
particular reviewer at the endof when, when they're doing a
review, and I've been in thebusiness for about 20 years now.
And when, when she would finisha review when she was on her
last visit, she would give you acredit card with her real name
on it.
And that was kind of hersignature of, of how she would
(31:40):
let you know that you, that thatwas the last visit that you were
done and you were going to bereviewed.
Frankly, I thought that I wouldbe a, a bad maitre d if you've
introduced yourself to me fivetimes over the last 15 years,
and I don't remember any.
Speaker 7 (31:51):
Well, it's a very odd situation.
I've never heard of anyone, um,who planned to keep the job for
more than two years.
Speaker 5 (31:58):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 (31:58):
Actually introducing themselves to rest return.
Right.
Well, like I said,
Speaker 5 (32:01):
this person didn't introduce themselves, but they
gave you a credit card.
Well, well, that's the samething, right?
Yeah.
It really
Speaker 6 (32:05):
is.
Hey Ruth, we wanna thank you fortaking time outta your busy
schedule at Gourmet to be withus and talk about your book,
which we recommend that everyoneshould go out and buy today.
What, what a
Speaker 5 (32:12):
delightful time we've had with you, Ruth, really
appreciate it.
Speaker 7 (32:14):
Thank you very much.
My pleasure.
I, I
Speaker 5 (32:15):
hope you'll come back and do it again with us
sometime.
Speaker 7 (32:17):
Gladly.
Alright, take care.
Okay, thanks.
Bye.
Bye-Bye.
Thanks very
Speaker 5 (32:19):
much.
That was Ruth Reisch, everybody,editor in chief of Gourmet
Magazine former restaurantcritic of the New York Times and
author of the new book, garlicand Sapphires.
And the book is great and
Speaker 6 (32:29):
fun and funny and she reprints, she has recipes in the
book.
Mm-hmm.
She has.
Uh, whole reviews her bestreviews in the book and excerpts
from her reviews, and she talksabout the amusing things that
happen.
As those reviews went on, myfavorite, my favorite.
You know, you gotta, like, eventhough I'm aur I feel sympathy,
but when, when she panssomebody, it's, it's funnier.
It's just, it sells more papers.
Her, my favorite quote is, uh,when she reviewed Tavern on the
(32:51):
Green very poorly and she quotesit as a guest of her saying it
was a museum of things that shenever have been made.
Yeah.
That's great.
Speaker 5 (32:58):
I just need to read it RA quick.
Today the box tree is apretentious place serving.
Fancy, not very good continentalfood for$86 a person price fix.
But one thing has changed.
The service used to be genial.
Inattentive.
Now it is as pretentious as thesetting ouchie.
Speaker 6 (33:13):
Ouch.
Fun book read.
Go out and buy garlic andsapphires.
You're listening to therestaurant guys.
I'm Francis Sha.
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurant guys.
Central Jersey 1450.
Time is 12 noon.
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