Teaser! Bill Grimes: Straight Up or On the Rocks

This is a Vintage Selection from 2005

The Banter

The Guys discuss the issues with destruction of certain animals and why eating them may be the will of the divine.

The Conversation

The Restaurant Guys are thrilled to welcome respected food and cocktail writer Bill Grimes to talk about the story of the American cocktail and Bill’s next book on the history of dining in NY. Bill tells where we've been and who helped us get here.

The Inside Track

The Guys relied upon Bill’s book Straight Up or On the Rocks while they built their cocktail bar (which is now the longest-running craft cocktail bar in the world!) While the three take their cocktails seriously, Bill thinks all drinks can play a part.

Bill: A cocktail that's like a well-made entree where the flavors are meaningful in relationship to each other and give pleasure because there's a certain tension or balance. But I'll also say there's a role for sort of the nutty, crazy, stupid cocktail too. I think a cocktail is a cocktail. It should encourage all kinds of kind of wacky inventiveness 

Mark: You believe that that the fuzzy wuzzy woo-woo does have a place in our society and serves a purpose?

Bill: It’s the price you pay for freedom.

Bio

William “Bill” Grimes is a longtime contributor to The New York Times. He has served in numerous editorial and writing capacities—magazine writer, culture reporter, and restaurant critic.

He has written many critically acclaimed books on food and drink: Straight Up or On the Rocks: The Story of the American Cocktail (a foundational cocktail history), and Appetite City: A Culinary History of New York 

His work earned nominations like the James Beard Foundation nod for culinary journalism.

Info

Bill Grimes NYT Cooking

https://cooking.nytimes.com/author/william-grimes

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Episode Transcript

Francis (01:08):
Hello, mark.
Hello Francis.
How is getting to work today?
Uh,

Mark (01:12):
it was a little bit of a wild ride from Cranford, New
Jersey, big traffic jam inCranford this morning.
All

Francis (01:18):
seven

Mark (01:18):
cars are in the road here, about 40 ducks cross on the
road.
They were taking their time too,

Francis (01:24):
not moving for anybody.
Which begs the question, why didthe duck cross the road?
Oh, that was the chicken.
Awful.
Awful.
Did you, did you really have,have you have a

Mark (01:32):
duck problem in Cranford?
Well, you know, we did have aduck problem in Cranford, and,
and it was this, this big issueabout three years ago, and they,
and they came in with the, the,the county trucks and they
gassed in Union County, NewJersey, a lot of ducks.
Mm-hmm.
And one of the things I neverreally understood.
Yeah.
They destroyed all the ducksinstead of.

(01:52):
You know, using them as part ofthe food chain.
Mm-hmm.
They destroyed the ducks.
You wanted to have a duck huntin

Francis (01:58):
Cranford

Mark (01:58):
New Jersey.
Exactly.
Forget to bear hunt.
I want a duck hunt.

Francis (02:01):
Oh, everyone.
Keep your kids at home.
Hide under the bed.
We're letting men with guns outto shoot the ducks in populated
cranford, New Jersey maybe bowsand

Mark (02:07):
arrows.
How's that?
But, but seriously, we, I mean,it just seemed like such a
waste.
I mean, they, they caughtthousands of ducks across the
county.
Gas them because I mean, theywere having problems with health
problems and things like that inthe city.
Water supply.
Well, you too, of aconcentration

Francis (02:23):
of ducks or geese.
You get, you get problems with,you know.
Duck refuse.
Yes, as it were.
Duck refuse.

Mark (02:28):
Nicely

Francis (02:29):
done.

Mark (02:29):
Uh,

Francis (02:29):
duck litter

Mark (02:30):
actually is what we can call it.
But, um, but yeah, so, but I, Idon't get it.
I don't get why we wouldn't usethat.
there's all these people talkingabout animal rights, all these
people, and we, we just wastedthese ducks.

Francis (02:43):
do you think that maybe they, because the gassing, the
ducks is.
More humane or more painlesssomehow, you know,

Mark (02:49):
I don't, I don't know, but wouldn't, shouldn't we save all
those ducks that we're eatingnow and, and eat these instead?

Francis (02:55):
Yeah.
I never understood.
I also, I also don't understandthe people who are against the,
um, the deer hunts and the bearhunts in Jersey because, well,
there's too many deer.
And there are too many bear, andI'm, we know we're all about
sustainability.
Sure.
Um, and we're all about humanemeth.
We're not

Mark (03:10):
saying, we're, we're not saying wipe out the bear or wipe
out the deer or wipe out thegeese.
We're duck.

Francis (03:14):
But like, but like we say, listen, sometimes you can't
build a condominium developmentbecause you, you impinge upon a
species that you might eradicatefrom the face of the planet.
Sometimes there, you know.
This, a species goes out ofbalance.
Right.
And you know, deer used to havenatural predators, right?
I mean, there used to be lions,you know, so there aren't, there
aren't any many big cats in thesuburbs bringing down the deer.
No.

(03:34):
And so the, the populationexplodes to an unhealthy level.

Mark (03:38):
And to where the deer are actually starving to death.
You actually have in, in, insome populations in New Jersey,
deer that in the past.
Deer that starved.
Before.
Before, before.
But I mean, they have hunts nowthat control the deer.
Yeah.
They're still outta controlthough.
Princeton.
If you live, I mean, forgetPrinceton.
Yeah.
Okay, now, now Cranford, we, wemake fun of cranford, but
cranford iss a, a little cityuhhuh, there are deer all over

(03:59):
Cranford.
There are rabbits all overCranford

Francis (04:01):
actually.
And the problem got so badbecause there are no

Mark (04:02):
pre predators.

Francis (04:03):
The problem got so bad that in Princeton they wanted to
have a limited licensed huntmm-hmm.
To, to get to call the deer, youknow, and there was a lot of
opposition from animal rightsgroups, and I, I never quite
understood that.
Mm-hmm.
Animals have predators, okay?
Mm-hmm.
And they're, they're supposed tolive in the wild.
And what the natural end to mostanimals' lives is to be eaten by

(04:23):
another animal.
Mm-hmm.
Whether that's a human being ornot a human being.
I mean, animals don't retire toFlorida and watch TV and, you
know, pass away in their sleepsurrounded by their family.
That's not how animals die.
Well, some animals die that.
The

Mark (04:35):
humans.
Me also, also the ones that wecrate up and, and put in our
back and put in the back of thestation wagon and drive down to
Florida.

Francis (04:42):
But I, yeah, I, I, I don't understand the opposition
there to, to using those animalsin the food chain.
I think there's a, there's afundamental disconnect.
Mm-hmm.
And I think it's the same reasonthat people don't, why the
family farmers threatenedmm-hmm.
Um, is because people think thechicken comes from a.
A cellophane wrapper.
Right?
A little plastic bag in ShopRiteand chicken comes from a
chicken, everybody.
Mm-hmm.

(05:03):
And that's why, you know, we'reagainst factory farming because
they.
Pump those chickens, which arereal animals.
I'm not against killing animalsfor food.
I'm, I'm for it in fact.
Right.
But to raise an animal humanelyfor it in, in a way that that
has, it is consistent with itsnature and then to kill it hu
humanely for food.
Mm-hmm.
I don't have a problem withthat.

(05:23):
That's the way, I mean, if Idon't kill that chicken, the dog
is gonna kill the chicken rightover the fox.
So, but the, with agribusinessfarms, what they do is they cut
the chicken's beaks off so theycan fit them in a factory farm
cage, and they don't peck eachother to death.
Mm-hmm.
And then they pump them full ofantibiotics and they

Mark (05:38):
pack so many of them, you wouldn't believe that they would
put this many chickens in onecup,

Francis (05:43):
and then you get an unnatural amount of litter from
the poultry.
Mm-hmm.
And, and it fouls the, the waterand the land, and no pun
intended.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
A foul with a U And you know,that to me is unnatural.
That's what we're against.
But, you know, hunting the deerwhen we have too many deer so we
can kill them and may as wellhave a stake out of it.
I don't get it.
Yeah.

Mark (06:01):
Again, what the thing that bothered me about that, that
the, the duck and mm-hmm andgoose hunt was that they didn't
use, that, they didn't use theproduct.
The product was, was destroyedand wasted.
Right.
what you're saying to is thatother geese and duck will be
killed for food as well as theseinstead of these instead of
them.

(06:21):
Well, and you know, and thatjust seems wasteful to me

Francis (06:23):
and what I think is really weak.
I mean, I think it's morallyweak.
Okay, so everybody get your hatemail email ready to go.
Okay.
Ill leave vegetarians out there.
I feel like I got one ready togo.
Oh, right at you right now.
Go ahead.
Um, I bet, I bet.
My email, my inbox is filling upas we speak.
I think it's weak to, to say,oh, well, killing animals is
always wrong.
Well, that's an easy.
And I think cowardly choice tomake because there come, there

(06:45):
comes a time when it's inhumanenot to call the deer population.
Mm-hmm.
It's inhumane not to call thebear population.
It's

Mark (06:52):
worse to let them starve to death, I think, than it's to
and spread disease.
Mm-hmm.

Francis (06:55):
Among each other.
And also they can jump tohumans.
Um.
And, and, and when you have, uh,geese and ducks that, that foul
the water supply, that become areal health hazard to human
beings.
There comes a point where youhave to, to step in and the
humane thing is to be a rationalhuman being.
Mm-hmm.
And realize that sometimes weneed to kill animals.

(07:17):
Did you say irrational humanbeing?
No.
Irrational.
Oh, okay.
Human being.
And sometimes we need to killanimals and.
I, I think it's, it's weeks.
Oh, well we can never kill ananimal.
I, I don't, I don't, I don't getit.
Well, you

Mark (07:26):
know, you know my motto there a lot.
I, I happen to know a lot ofpeople who claim they're
vegetarians and still eatseafood and things like that.

Francis (07:31):
Yeah.
We, you know, my motto,

Mark (07:32):
my, oh, what's your motto?

Francis (07:33):
I'm sorry.

Mark (07:34):
Is where, uh, you're gonna eat 12 shrimp.
Right.
I'm gonna eat one, 200th of acow.
You know my motto,

Francis (07:40):
God, if God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't
have made them outta meat.
Yeah, that's good motto.
We're gonna be talking with BillGrimes, former restaurant critic
for the New York Times, authorof a, a book, cocktails on
cocktails and, um, general bfi.
In just a moment, you'relistening to the Restaurant
Guys, Hey, you're back with therestaurant guys, mark Pascal and
Francis.
Shot from Stage Left Restaurantin New Brunswick, New Jersey,
and we have a special guesttoday.

(08:01):
Bill Grimes was once thedrinking man columnist for
Esquire Magazine.
He writes for the New York Timeswhere he was restaurant critic
from 90.
1997 to 2003.
He's al also authored amongother works, our favorite book
on cocktails, straight up aroundthe Rocks, the Story of the
American Cocktail.
And he's currently working on anew book about the history of
dining in New York.
Hey Bill, welcome to the show.

Mark (08:23):
Thank you.
Good morning, bill.
Hi, how are you doing great.

Francis (08:25):
Thanks for taking the time to, uh, to come and talk
with us.
You know, your book, um,straight up around the Rocks was
instrumental when we put ourrestaurant together.
It was, we, we built ourcocktail list around you, right?
Right around

Mark (08:35):
the time your book came out is when we opened.

Bill (08:37):
Oh gosh.

Francis (08:38):
Yeah.
you're really fascinated withcocktails and you write really
well about cocktails.
But I want to ask you, do youthink you have a problem?

Bill (08:45):
I, uh, I, you'd be surprised how little I drink,
but Little but well.
Little wood.
That's right.
You know, to target youropportunities.

Francis (08:54):
We're gonna put your book up on our website later so
people can find it.
I highly recommend it.
It is, um, it used to be calledWhen I bought it back in 93.
Was it, that it first came out?
Yeah, it was around 93.
Mm-hmm.
Um, it was called, uh, the storyof the co It was, um, was it
straight up around the rocks?
A cultural history of Americandrink?

Bill (09:10):
Yes.
You know, the second time aroundwhen I bought it out, I had a
chance to revise it, Uhhuh, uh,make it a little more up to
date.
Mm-hmm.

Mark (09:18):
Correct.

Bill (09:18):
A couple of errors,

Mark (09:19):
Uhhuh.

Bill (09:19):
And um, and I thought that subtitle was a little
highfalutin.

Mark (09:24):
Yeah, I'm

Bill (09:24):
a

Francis (09:24):
highfalutin

Mark (09:25):
kind of guy.
I liked it.
And Bill, you don't, you writefor the New York Times, you
don't make errors.

Francis (09:29):
That's right.

Mark (09:30):
Occasionally you're misquoted, but that's it.
That's right.

Francis (09:33):
Now your book and what people should know about this
book, what's interesting aboutit is there are cocktail recipes
in this book, but it's not yourcoffee table cocktail book.
It's about putting.
Cocktails in a cultural context,what ever inspired you to to
pursue that line of inquiry?

Bill (09:48):
Well, when I was doing the uh, Esquire column.
The tack that I naturally fellinto was to try to figure out,
when I would write about aparticular cocktail, I try to
figure out, well, where did thisthing come from?
And I wound up going to thelibrary trying to do research,
trying to separate myths fromfact, which is very difficult to
do,

Speaker 6 (10:06):
especially in cocktails.
Especially

Bill (10:07):
in cocktails.
And gradually I developed thiskind of running folder of
historical material about theAmerican cocktail.
And at some point, uh, it, itseemed.
That it could support a book.

Mark (10:21):
Mm-hmm.
That if

Bill (10:22):
you could try to string it all together and give a
continuous story of cocktails asthis uniquely American form of
expression and.
Try to explain how it startedand how it developed and where
it seems to be going, that thatwould be kind of a satisfying
read and nobody had done itreally.

Mark (10:39):
Yeah.
I, I think what some peopledon't realize is that, uh, most
of the, the literature aboutcocktails had been written by
drunk people.

Bill (10:47):
It reads that way.

Francis (10:49):
You wrote, and I, and I want you to talk about cocktails
being uniquely American.
I want to tell you, I'm just,um, on our first cocktail menu,
we used a couple of quotes fromyour book, um, from the original
book you quoted, HL Mankin, um,as saying, uh, he, he called
Mankin, called the cocktail, thegreatest of all the
contributions of the Americanway of life to the salvation of
mankind.
And then in the inside flap, youwrote commenting on that quote,

(11:11):
you said Mankin did not live tosee the fuzzy navel, the
screaming orgasm or the teenyweenie woowoo.
And perhaps it's just as wellabominations like the jello shot
remind us that standards domatter.