June 19, 2025 • 39 mins
This is a Vintage Selection from 2006
The Banter
The Guys talk about a big change in NYC restaurant ownership as well as the implications of invasive grass.
The Conversation
The Restaurant Guys welcome William Alexander to hear about the trials of being a home gardener and the shocking realization that his home-grown tomatoes cost him $64.
The Inside Track
The Guys have an amusing conversation with Bill discussing the battles with deer, groundhogs and the neighbor’s cat.
Bill: My latest battle was with the neighbor's cats who insisted on peeing on my organic lettuce.
Mark: That's still organic.
Bill: Well, you know, I think I found a way to get, get even with them. I started to use their litter box. But I think the moral is that no matter what you do, animals are going to get into your garden because of the simple truth: You may be smarter, but they've got more time.
-William Alexander on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2006
Bio
William Alexander, spent nearly four decades as director of technology at a psychiatric research institute.
Having broken into writing with the critically-acclaimed, bestselling memoir The $64 Tomato, Bill wrote Ten Tomatoes that Changed the World.
Bill has contributed over a dozen op-eds to the New York Times, where he has opined on such varied issues as Martha Stewart's release from prison, what the honeybee crisis means to the home gardener, the difficulties of being organic, and The Benefits of Failing at French, which achieved the distinction of being the most viewed, e-mailed, tweeted, and Facebook-ed article of the day.
Info
William’s site
https://williamalexander.com/index.php
William’s book
The $64 Tomato: How One Man Nearly Lost His Sanity, Spent a Fortune and Endured an Existential Crisis in the Quest for the Perfect Garden
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark (00:42):
Good morning, mark.
Good morning, Francis.
How are you this morning?
I am dynamite.
Boom.
I love that one.
That's like my favorite intro.
Francis (00:49):
If it's, you got kids that think it's funny.
Um, uh, restaurant gossip.
Have you seen the Tom Collicchiois leaving Gramercy Tavern?
Mark (00:57):
I have indeed seen.
These are, these are two of thebiggest, uh, restaurateurs.
I.
on the face of the planet, butcertainly in New York City.
Francis (01:04):
Yeah.
Indulge us if you're, if you'relistening from outside the
listening area and you're notnear New York.
Gramercy Tavern is a fantasticrestaurant.
Um, that is where they're,they've both been partners for a
long time now.
Tom Colicchio has gone on tohost top Chef.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and then of course his otherrestaurants are craft.
Uh, craft steak in Las Vegasnow.
Craft steak in New York.
Witchcraft, witchcraft, ofcourse, the sandwich shops.
(01:26):
And of course, he's just done abunch of things.
Real high profile Chef andowner.
Mark (01:29):
And Danny Meyers, a head of a large restaurant group
there that owns, he has tablaand a bunch of other
restaurants.
Tabla 11
Francis (01:35):
Madison Park, the Shake Shack.
Mm-hmm.
Mark (01:37):
and I think that for those of us, uh.
Insiders, it's always been kindof curious to us.
They had such great success withGramercy Tavern.
Uh, Rader is one of the toprestaurants in the country.
It's had a really, really nice,long run as, as a really nice
restaurant that, that's a reallycomfortable place that, that
Francis and I go to all the timeyou know, just a nice place to
(01:59):
go to with an exceptional cheesecourse.
And the food's always really,really good people eyes.
And the people are nice.
And so for us it was always kindof peculiar that these two guys,
especially when you talk to, toFrancis and me, who, uh, though
we hate each other's guts, weare, are not breaking up our
partnership after 14 or 15years.
But, uh, seriously.
(02:19):
I think it was, I think it waspeculiar to all of us that these
guys went off to do their ownprojects when they were so
successful together.
Francis (02:26):
Mark, there's a certified letter for you on your
desk when you get back up.
Just, just wanted you to knowthat.
Mark (02:31):
Thank goodness.
I hope it's an offer.
Anyway, uh, so now these guysactually have completely, uh,
separated ties, although, uh,it's reported that it's, that
it's amicable and that theseguys are still get along and
Francis (02:43):
Danny Meyer butt out.
The, so Danny
Mark (02:45):
Meyer now owns, Gramercy Tavern all, all to his very own
and continue to run it.
So good luck to everybody.
Yeah, I think that's great.
Francis (02:52):
Sorry for the, uh, local gossip for those listening
in Alaska.
Mark (02:55):
I'm not sorry we gossip sometimes.
Francis (02:56):
Um, here's just something with worldwide
implications.
Uh, this is from the AssociatedPress.
Um.
Remember we were talking withthe agribusiness people and they
said, listen, geneticallyengineered crops, there's no
problem with them.
Don't worry about them.
They'll, they'll only stay onthe farm.
Uh, the grass is escape mark,right?
The grass is escaped.
It seems as though grass,
Mark (03:16):
what's a big deal?
It's just grass.
What could it do?
It's
Francis (03:19):
seems as though the grass that was genetically
engineered for golf courses isnow growing in the wild, posing
one of the.
First threats of agriculturalbiotechnology escaping from the
farm in the United States.
Please
Mark (03:29):
note that that reads one of the first threats.
Yeah.
Because it is only the first ofmany threats yet to come
Francis (03:35):
because of the how, how about the, the pharmaceutical
corn?
Uh, the mm-hmm.
Uh, that, that they're growing.
They're trying to grow allgenetically modified plants to,
to produce drugs in them orgenetically modified plants to,
to, to change yield.
And here's the thing about this,the way modern American.
and Canadian by now Iraqi Law,uh, is read is that the company
(03:58):
that owns the geneticengineering that owns the
genetic bit of code owns anyorganism in it.
That has that code in its DNA.
So this grass that the golfcourse bought, um, escapes.
Okay.
And is now growing wild.
Mm-hmm.
Well, first of all, this grassis resistant to Roundup, which
is the most popular, herbicideused to, to kill it.
(04:19):
Right.
So.
Now you have this grass thatcan't be killed or can be
killed, but you have to use amuch more toxic right now.
You need to use something moretoxic, overside if you wanna
kill it.
It's replacing the naturalgrasses that are normally out
there threatening thebiodiversity of the planet.
And guess what, uh, the peoplewho own, uh, Scott's Miracle
(04:39):
grow or, and, and in cooperationwith roundups manufacturer.
Monsanto, um, own that geneticcode.
So literally, if that grassstarts to grow on your lawn, you
and Monsanto says, Hey, yeah,our grass is growing on your
lawn.
You've gotta pay us a licensingfee.
Mark (04:54):
So if you own the golf course next door to the golf
course that's growing thisengineer, no.
If you own the
Francis (04:59):
backyard, oh, hold on.
Mark (05:00):
Let's, let's start, let's let, and this grass begins
growing in on your property.
You now.
Can be sued by Monsanto forhaving a grass growing on your
property that you didn't plant,that you didn't want, because
the wind blew it across from,from one golf course to another.
We'll take this the next step.
You own the yard next to thegolf course, next to the golf
(05:24):
course and the the thirdgeneration of grass.
Now grass seed now blows ontoyour lawn.
Starts crowding out your tomatoplants
Francis (05:36):
and you go and get, not only
Mark (05:37):
do you have an issue with your tomato plants,
Francis (05:40):
right, and then you go and get some roundup'cause you
don't wanna do the weeding.
Mm-hmm.
And you spray it on there and itdoesn't work.
So you gotta pull'em out byhand.
But also if your lawn getscrowded out by the creeping bent
grass that was geneticallymodified, which has been
modified, uh, by Monsanto andScott's Miracle Grow, to resist
Roundup.
Mm-hmm.
They can come and say, Hey,you've got our genetic material
(06:01):
on your lawn.
You need to pass a licensingfee.
And the United States andCanadian law has held that up.
It sounds unbelievable.
Because I think it should be,Hey, your genetic materials on
my lawn, get it off.
Get, get it off my lawn.
But that's not how it works.
Okay.
Because the corporations have atremendous amount of control,
and I'll refer you to our showthat we did on the future of
(06:22):
Food.
Mm-hmm.
Which you can find our on ourwebsite, which was.
a film produced documentaryproduced by Deborah Konz Garcia,
where she talks in depth aboutPercy Schmeer, who is the
Canadian farmer who took it allthe way to the Canadian Supreme
Court and the American law isthe same.
And lost because, and lostbecause.
They own the life form itself,even if it's the child or the
(06:45):
grandchild of that life form.
So, uh, now the, uh, the toapologist, uh, geneticist says,
um, what's his name?
Uh, this is not a killer tomato.
It's not the asparagus that ateCleveland said Norman l Strand,
a geneticist and plant expert atthe University of California
know that's coming next.
Mark (07:03):
Yeah.
But what we, what we do know isin the wild, we're getting
hybrids here.
Okay.
And if we can get hybrids, wecan get other hybrids that that
can affect.
And Francis said this before,the biodiversity of what is in
our fields is what?
In the wild grasses that aregrowing in, the grasses that
grow on our lawns.
In the, in what is in our, onour farms.
(07:24):
Okay?
For all we know, uh, thesegrasses could.
Uh, it could become strongerthan, uh, the corn that's in our
fields.
And then we have to createsomething that kills the grass,
but doesn't clear kill the corn.
And we just keep going down thishorrible, horrible cycle
Francis (07:42):
here.
And now, here's the deal.
Uh, and just so you allunderstand what's going on here,
this grass can cross breededwith your grass.
Mm-hmm.
Making a new type of grass.
But since it has that samegenetic material, Monsanto still
owns it.
Okay.
Now hold on a second.
So and so you have, what if it
Mark (07:57):
crossbred with a.
A grass that somebody elsebesides Monsanto owned who would
own the new grass with bothgenetic materials in it, you,
you would have to pay licensingfees
Francis (08:08):
for the both to both of 'em is exactly
Mark (08:11):
what would happen.
You'd have to pay them both.
Francis (08:13):
Um, you shouldn't be able to own life.
And if they were 10 of'em,
Mark (08:16):
you'd have
Francis (08:16):
to
Mark (08:16):
pay it
Francis (08:16):
to 10 of them.
You shouldn't be able to patentlife and you shouldn't be able
to change DNA and then releaseit into the environment where
this grass can cross with thatgrass and can cross with that
grass and cross with that grass.
And remember.
Any of these hybrids, they sayit can cross with about 10
different species.
Mm-hmm.
Any of those hybrids that comefrom, you can get 10 different
crosses from 10 differentspecies.
We've already got a hundreddifferent things out there.
And Monsanto's responsible forthe DNA that was created in a
(08:39):
laboratory and if it
Mark (08:39):
blows on your lawn and grows, you have to pay them or
legally,
Francis (08:43):
and all I have to say is, does anybody remember kudzu?
Okay, kudzu is taking over thesouth, climbing up telephone
poles.
You know, it's, it's a menaceand at least that was, had a
native predator somewhere on theplanet.
Anyway.
Alright, now in just a momentwe'll be talking with William
Alexander.
His book is the$64 Tomato.
It's a gardener's memoir abouthow when he figured it all out,
what he spent on gardening histomatoes wound up costing him$64
(09:06):
a piece.
It's a great memoir.
Uh, and he'll be here to talkwith us in just a moment.
You're listening to theRestaurant Guys, Hey everybody
and welcome back.
You're listening to theRestaurant guys, mark and
Francis of Captain Lombardi andStage Left Restaurants in
downtown New Brunswick, NewJersey.
Um, the$64 tomato is agardener's memoir.
William Alexander's book relateshis many trying and many
rewarding experiences with his2000 square foot garden with 22
(09:30):
beds, and I think one of themost interesting points.
Uh, welcome to the show,William.
Thank you.
William (09:34):
Nice to be on the show.
Francis (09:34):
I think one of the most interesting points you said is
that, you know, after you'destablished this 2000 square
foot garden with 22 beds and youhad a vision of, a Victorian
garden in your head, what yourealized is the Victorians had a
lot of servants.
William (09:45):
Yeah.
I mean, one of the things that,you know, I think.
I think the problem that my, mywife and I had was we looked at
this space, try to figure outwhat to do with this space for
two years.
And during those two years, forChristmas, for birthdays, for
Father's Day, we gave each otherlarge format garden books.
The kind we've all seen withtitles like Monet's Garden as
(10:06):
Veni, and great VictorianGardens.
You know, we're, we're talkingabout garden porn
Speaker 5 (10:13):
and in our, in
William (10:14):
our, we were young kids of like 43.
We, we didn't realize the nuancethat every everybody else did,
which is of course, one of thethings that made great Victorian
Gardens great is that they camewith great Victorian gardeners,
Francis (10:28):
by the way.
And those great Victoriangardeners had great Victorian
laborers working under thegardeners.
William (10:31):
They sure did.
They had lots of help.
And it was just little old mestanding out there in the middle
of those 22 beds and 2000 squarefeet.
Mark (10:39):
Alright, recognize that 2000 square feet here in Central
Jersey.
You, we put like four houses onthat.
Yeah.
Francis (10:45):
So, so now you had, let's, let's talk about, so you
decide you are going to takethis space and you're gonna make
a garden.
So you had contractors come into lay the beds.
Why don't you start with yourarc, with your initial
experience in putting thisgarden together.
William (10:58):
So.
Well, we realized the space was,was deeply sloped and it held
water like a, like a wet spot.
And so we knew that we, that weneeded help.
And, um, and the woman thatcame, came over I, I guess it's
safe to say that we chose her,not so much for her background
in building this type of agarden because she had never.
Done that.
(11:19):
But um, my wife really liked herbeautiful teeth, her great
smile, and when she started tospeak the Latin names for the
plants, I just went head, headover heels.
And then the real thing though,was her dirty fingernails.
And so she had all the, all theright stuff.
It seemed a certain zenner her,as it were.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
William (11:38):
And then from her, we went to a, a gardener who bore a
scary and incredibly remarkably,um, accurate resemblance of the
actor Christopher Walken, bothan appearance ending in spirit
Uhhuh one might say,
Mark (11:53):
I don't feel really good about that.
William (11:54):
And, uh, well, you know, I, I should have known
from the start because my, mywife called him and he appeared
at the house like in 90.
Seconds.
And we all know whether it's aplumber or carpenter or a a, a
gardener, the better thecontractor the longer it takes
to get'em to your house.
Right?
Yeah.
If, if you get'em at, at all.
Francis (12:12):
So what happened with these contractors that they
didn't work out?
William (12:15):
Well, walk-in, um, looked like he was doing a, a
good job,
Speaker 5 (12:20):
Uhhuh.
William (12:20):
And uh, until, uh, he got to the point where he was,
he was undoing the work of thefirst con contractor by the way.
'cause he, we had to lay.
a, uh, four inch steel platealong the edge of the beds
because the, a woman who, uh,who had built the garden for us
thought that, um, Kentucky bluegrass would look beautiful
running up the middle of thisgarden.
(12:41):
Well, Kentucky Blue Grass is aweed.
It grows by underground runners,and at no time at all, I was
spending most of my timeweeding, pulling grass out of my
beds.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Oh, no.
So we've gotta
William (12:52):
get some, some edging in there.
So that's when we called.
Walking in and he was doing agreat job.
And I have to say, having agardener for a while was great
to go to work and come home andsee work having been done in
your garden while, while youweren't there.
Speaker 5 (13:05):
Yeah, that's not fair.
Was
William (13:06):
magical uhhuh and, uh, and things were going fine until
he thought that the gardencenter had shorted him a dozen
of the spikes that hold theedging to the, to the ground,
and he was ready to grab his AK47 and go over and settle the
score.
So we felt it was best to partways at, at that point, rather
than
Mark (13:24):
have'em fire off a few rounds in the local, uh, yeah.
Herb.
Francis (13:29):
So, so how did, how do you wind up getting it finished?
William (13:32):
Well, I've spent a lot of time out there.
Mm-hmm.
You know, all of my leisure timeand, well, it's hard to call
leisure.
I was gonna say,
Mark (13:38):
it's not leisure time,
William (13:40):
you know, look, it's, it's also a, a labor of love.
It's, it's the garden that you,you can't live with and you
can't live with without, youknow.
Francis (13:49):
So now this has become a really important part of your
family life, this garden, right?
William (13:53):
Yeah.
And you know, at one point I, Ikind of compare it to, you know,
it's like a part of the.
family, it's a relative, not somuch the beloved.
Grandma that you kind of taketake care of in her old age, but
more like that kind of loud,obnoxious uncle that we all try
to avoid at the weddings, whospends way beyond his means.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, and stands
Mark (14:13):
a little too close to you and gets a little saliva on you
when he talks.
William (14:16):
Exactly, but you know, even so, it's still a member of
the family and you know, when,when we take out a better or
two, you know, the kids mourn.
They, they gave me a real hardtime the year that I, I told'em
I, I couldn't grow corn anymore.
They said, you want us to buycorn at the farm stand
Francis (14:36):
now.
Now with a, with a garden thissize, do you ever get to even go
away on vacation in thesummertime or does do it require
year round tending or all summerlong tending.
Well,
William (14:45):
we sneak a week in here and there, but we have not taken
a vacation in August in years,because August is, of course, in
the northeast is when everythingcomes in.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
Mm-hmm.
William (14:54):
You know, the beans and tomatoes and the, and this is
nutty.
I'll be the first one to admitthis.
This is nuts.
Francis (15:01):
Are, do you work, do you work more hours on your
garden or your job?
William (15:04):
Um, on my job, I have to say.
I'm sitting at my job now, soI'll answer at, at.
At my job, but I'll admit thatwhile I'm at my job, my mind
isn't always on my job.
Francis (15:14):
We, we we're gonna talk more with, uh, William Alexander
about his experience planting a2000 square foot garden why did
you call your book the$64tomato?
William (15:22):
Well, let me choose my words very carefully here.
Um, this was my wife's fault andshe was passing through the
garden, won late summer night,and she walked past one of my
prize brand new wines and said,oh, what a beautiful tomato.
And I said Something not sowitty, like, yeah, it ought to
(15:43):
be, it probably cost us about 20bucks to, to grow.
And I knew that it did, and itprobably cost us.
Three or four, though I guessit'd been kind of a, a rough
year in the garden.
I hadn't gotten many, thegroundhog had gotten as many as
I had, but it started methinking what had I actually
spent to, to grow those.
So that night I sat down, I gotback all the records that, uh,
(16:03):
of having the garden built and Ispread that out over 20 years.
That's a good life.
So you advertise
Francis (16:09):
the, the cost,
William (16:10):
advertise it over over 20 years.
That's fair.
You're
Mark (16:12):
gonna have the life of, you're gonna have the garden for
20 years.
William (16:17):
GM or someone, I could deduct all those costs in one,
one year, but I'm not right.
I advertise it over, over 20years.
Looked at what I had spent thatyear, which was the real
shocking part.
You don't realize all thoseSaturday morning trips to the
garden center and the, you know,the hedge trimmers you leave out
in the rain and all that.
Stuff.
It just, it, it adds up.
Mark (16:36):
For me, it was always the hedge trimmers that I cut the
cord on as I was trimming thehedges and went to go back and
get that little branch that Ihad just missed.
Francis (16:45):
Mm-hmm.
So you really came up with a$64per tomato cost when you figured
it all out.
William (16:50):
Yes, that was, that was the cost of each of the 19 brand
new wines that I had hadharvested in that, in that
season.
Mark (16:57):
That's awesome.
I love the way you actually do,I mean, in, in the book you'll
see the actual math of how thisall breaks down.
And, and, and not to mention thefact that you're advertising,
you know, a lot of the fixedcauses over 20 years.
Very good generally acceptedaccounting principles here.
You've done a thank you.
You did a very good job, withthe numbers here just to.
To make this all work out.
Uh,
Francis (17:17):
so was the tomato really, really good?
William (17:20):
You know, you know, I, I I, I kind of went through
something once I had done thismath, and, and I, I would say
that this is something youprobably don't wanna do at, at,
at home Kids Uhhuh.
But once I had done this, Ithink I went through something
akin to the, the five stages of,of grief, denial, and shock.
And then I just kind of came tosay, okay, this is, this is what
(17:41):
it costs.
And the way I.
I look at it now is, you know,coming back to the concept that
the Garden, being a familymember.
When my kids are grown and outof the house, I don't think I'm
going to, I hope I'm not goingto look back and say, gee, the
cost of all those oboe lessonsand summer camp, was Katie
really worth it.
And we, we think the same wayabout the garden.
My favorite line
Mark (18:02):
in the book is.
you ask your wife, uh, if it wasit worth it, and she says, maybe
that one filled with crab.
Anyway, we'll be right back.
You're listening to therestaurant guys,
Francis (18:11):
The book is the$64 tomato, how one man nearly lost
his sanity, spent a fortune andendured an existential crisis in
the quest for the perfectgarden.
That man is William Alexanderand it's his memoir, and we're
talking to him today.
Now, William, this, you have agarden this size.
Does this pretty much feed yourfamily in summertime?
William (18:30):
Uh, some, some years it, it, it really does.
Um, other years are a littlelight.
Mark (18:37):
Have you, you know what would help you if, uh, you need
to feed your family during thesummer is a groundhog stew.
Yeah.
Francis (18:44):
Talk to us about the kind of tribulations that a,
that a, a gardener finds thatyour person who's not really
into gardening might, uh, wespoke about a groundhog earlier,
but what were the enemies thatyou battled to make this garden
produce?
William (18:56):
Well, we mentioned the groundhog.
Deer, of course, are justrampant.
Um, my, my latest battle waswith the, the neighbor's cats
who insist on peeing on myorganic lettuce.
Mark (19:08):
That's still organic,
William (19:10):
although, yeah, well, you know, I think I found a way
to get, get even with them.
I started to use their litterbox.
But, um, I think the moral isthat, you know, you can bring in
as I have electric fences and,and wires and I've heard of
people bringing in dogs.
No matter what you do, animalsare going to get into your
garden because of the simpletruth.
(19:30):
You may be smarter, but they'vegot more time.
Francis (19:32):
Yeah, yeah.
They're, they've got nothingelse to do full time.
That's right.
That,
William (19:35):
that, that groundhog's job while you're at work, his
job is to, is to figure out howto get to your garden.
Francis (19:41):
So talk to us about the groundhog.
Problem that you had in the, theone groundhog that you hug, that
you nicknamed super.
William (19:47):
Yeah, and I, I never had a problem with, with gr
groundhogs over the years,'causeI have this.
Electric fence.
Uh, but my neighbor, uh, doesnot have such a fence, and he,
he would complain.
So I would just pull this groundgroundhog gap.
It's a place under my littlebarn where there's always one,
and I, so I would trap it, andwithin a week or so, through
(20:07):
some, I don't know, groundhog's,Craigslist, a new one would move
in and I would eventually traptrap him and, and things were,
were fine.
Until the day that I saw thebiggest fattest groundhog I'd
ever seen sitting in my garden,munching on a brand new wine,
Francis (20:22):
drinking a beer and smoking a cigar.
Just to figure out how he got,yeah,
William (20:24):
were flying in the sun like, you know, Bridgette bar,
bar Bardo or someone, and Icould not trap this ground
groundhog.
I couldn't figure out how he wasgetting in.
And then I found out that my,electric fence, the charger had,
uh, had failed to bid on me.
And I was only getting a mere3000 volts out of, instead of
the six I was.
supposed to be getting out thecharger.
(20:45):
So I went and I bought a newcharger and figured as long as
I'm buying a new one, let's,let's juice up the baby.
So now I had a 10,000 voltcharger, and the groundhog would
approach the fence, jump throughthe wires.
I.
Shake it off, shutter and shakeit off like a quarterback taking
a hit, really move on, eat thetomatoes just
Francis (21:05):
a little bit of, and then, uh, onto dinner.
William (21:08):
He didn't seem to mind.
And then he would take a littlenap and he would kind of brace
himself and he'd take the zip onthe way out.
So at that point, when I startedtalking to my wife about, well,
maybe we need a few more voltsat this point, guys, I was ready
to hook it up to the, the, thestreet current of that.
Right.
The light
Mark (21:23):
dimed every time Super chuck went into the, into the
garden.
William (21:26):
But then I, I saw something, it made me realize it
wouldn't have mattered if I hada hundred thousand volts there
because, uh, the way thatelectric fence works is that it
sends out this charge once everysecond, and there's a pause,
boom, boom.
And I watched this guy approachthe fence.
Wait and leap through in the onesecond pause between the
(21:47):
charges.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
How did
William (21:50):
he know?
Well, I don't know.
He is a groundhog.
How he knows.
But then what really struck mewas that I realized I had
created this groundhog.
I had made super chuck becauseby taking away the dumb easy to
trap ones.
These guys were really the idealtenants.
They were the ones they shouldhave been leaving, and it was in
(22:10):
a very Darwinian way.
It was guaranteed a sooner orlater I would get a ground
groundhog that was too smart forthe trap uhhuh,
Francis (22:20):
and
William (22:20):
also would find a way to get into my, my garden.
So how does
Francis (22:23):
this story end?
Did we ever get rid of SuperChuck?
William (22:25):
Well, I have to say the story ends badly for, for us
both.
I don't want, I don't wannaspoil the ending, but I'll say
there were no, no winners here.
Francis (22:33):
You poisoned super chuck, didn't you?
I'm not telling.
Alright.
Alright.
I
William (22:37):
love animals.
Francis (22:37):
No, I love animals too.
Medium rare with a little bitof, a little bit of barbecue
sauce.
Um, so now people think you werecrazy when you planted this 2000
square foot garden.
How did the neighbors react?
William (22:51):
Um, yeah, they just kind of looked at me, the, the
very first words of the, of theguy next.
Next, next door.
The very first words of thegarden as I was exalting in my
brand new topsoil had just beenbrought in that I, I shudder to
remind myself$60 a yard and Iwas in my garden joint.
From the very first words Iheard were gonna be a lot of
(23:12):
weeding.
I had my own Greek chorus nextdoor who would kind of keep,
keep an eye on things and, andwarn me about the weeds and the
gr groundhogs.
And, and he was right.
Most, Of the time.
Mark (23:24):
my dad had a, a little farm up in upstate New York when
I was growing up, that we wouldgo to on weekends.
And my grandmother lived, uh, infull time.
And what I remember is when wedecided to do that big garden,
and it was pretty similar insize to the one you did.
What I remember is taking rocksbecause we had to rott till and,
and you would remove the rocksas the rocks came up to the
surface.
(23:44):
The, the rocks that we removedhad to be, if about twice the
size of the garden.
I still don't understand.
Today we built a giant rock wallthat was, you know, probably
4,000 square feet out of our2000 square foot garden.
And I, and, and nature is a veryfunny thing, and that, that
punishes us for such decisions.
Yeah.
William (24:02):
They, they call that growing rocks.
What it.
Francis (24:10):
The motivation behind the garden?
I mean, is it mostly foraesthetic beauty of the, of
being in the garden or the, thework and how it brings the
family together or the food thatyou get out of it?
What,
William (24:20):
what's the, you know, it, it, it's really a complex
question and I, I've given thata lot of thought and I, I think
it's all of those things, butwhen, when push comes to shove
and I really get kind of tiredof it and I'd rather be doing
something else on a Saturdayinstead of slaving away at it,
and I.
Consider not having a garden orhaving a much smaller garden.
(24:43):
What always comes back is, butman, I'm gonna miss that fresh
lettuce.
So I really think that it'sabout the food for us.
Mark (24:51):
Now do, do your, now you were talking about your kids
earlier.
I was 12, 14, 15, years oldwhen, when my dad had the farm,
and all I remember is going tothe grocery store and saying,
huh, 10 pounds of potatoes forthree bucks.
Maybe we should buy thepotatoes.
Dad, this is a lot of work.
It's really, really hard.
(25:12):
Do, do your kids feel the sameway
William (25:13):
I, I, you know, I was hoping my kids would be more in,
involved in, in the garden too,and that, and that was part of
the plan.
And that first year, the gardenwas finished in the spring.
So for, for Easter, instead ofthe kids getting chocolate
bunnies and then so on, they gottheir own little kid sized
garden tools, those really cuteones
Speaker 5 (25:33):
and their own
William (25:33):
gardening gloves.
Um, a book Gardening for Kids.
And the best news of all wasthat, uh, the, the news that
they could have each their owntwo beds.
In the garden.
And they reacted honestly, asif, um, we had told them that
instead of going to school fromnow on, they'd be working in
the, in the mines.
Couldn't be less enthused aboutthe garden.
Mark (25:54):
They really wanted those little yellow peeps instead,
didn't they?
They, they sure did.
That's, that's, you know, thatmight have been a little nicer.
Uh, anyway, one of the thingsthat I remember about the garden
is my dad telling me, yeah,asparagus, uh, takes three years
to grow.
Three years.
I don't have three years to, towait for this.
I mean, the, the other thingthat I, that I learned, I think
(26:14):
from, from my dad's garden andfrom his farm was patience was,
was that the rewards of patiencecame, you know.
From, from waiting in the gardenand, and watching what happened
and, and tasting that deliciousfood.
William (26:28):
Yeah.
I'm still hoping that thatpatients will, will come to me.
Um, one of the things that I didwhen I, when I built the garden,
I had a water spout, a littlespigot so I could put a drip,
drip hose in mm-hmm.
Speaker 5 (26:39):
On
William (26:40):
every bed.
And, uh, and that first winterwhen the garden was there, and
as, as the snow melted, I hadthese obscene, tall black.
Pipes with a faucet each about afoot high.
Speaker 5 (26:51):
Mm-hmm.
And
William (26:51):
it looked like, you know, an abandoned oil rig.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
Mm-hmm.
William (26:55):
And so I went out with my glue and my fittings, and I
cut everything down to sit likefour inches from the ground.
And didn't realize that overtime my beds would get taller
when I added things to them.
And now every time I go out to,uh, hook on a hose, I have to
battle with the darn thing.
And I'm, I'm always tellingmyself that.
(27:17):
Patience in the garden.
It's a good thing.
I should try to remember that.
Yeah,
Francis (27:20):
exactly.
Hey William, I wanna thank youfor coming on the show to talk
with us about your book.
It was great.
William (27:24):
Thank you.
It's been fun.
Alright, take care.
Thanks very much, William.
Francis (27:26):
That's, that's William Alexander.
The book is the$64 Tomato.
Uh, and you can find out moreabout it on our website,
restaurant guys radio.com.
You're listening to theRestaurant Guys, You know, I, I
fully sympathize with that guy.
Mm-hmm.
This the$64 tomato I got.
Can I got, can I tell you?
Mark (27:42):
Got that this year?
Yeah.
I did not get to eat a singletomato.
Why?
Because there's a littlesquirrel.
And he goes, and he takes mytomatoes and my neighbor said he
saw'em, okay?
Mm-hmm.
He says, I've seen'em every day.
And he says, every day he picksa little tomato off your tomato
plants, you know, little, youknow the ones that's just
starting to turn before I wouldpick them, but you know, it
seems to be just right for mylittle squirrel friend, Uhhuh.
(28:04):
And he says he runs over and hesits behind this little tree
that overlooks my my neighbor'sproperty.
And he eats my tomato, has a
Francis (28:11):
bottle of wine,
Mark (28:13):
and he's really making me mad.
And, and I'm not thinking aboutthe have a heart trap.
Okay?
That's not, that's not what'srunning through my head.
But seriously, one of the thingsthat, Bill talked about in this
book is that, when you do allthis backbreaking work and you
do understand a little bit aboutwhat goes into growing some of
the foods that we grow.
It's, it is amazing that wehave, you can buy a pound of
(28:37):
string beans for a dollar.
Francis and I have said before,we think some of the prices on
some foods are artificiallyinexpensive and that maybe we
should be paying a little bitmore for some of the foods that
we eat and it should be a littlebit higher percentage of what we
spend out of our pockets.
In
Francis (28:53):
the 1950s and sixties, the average American family
spent working class familiesspent.
And middle class families spent50% of their disposable income
on food.
Mm-hmm.
Today, the average family spends10%.
That's a big difference.
It's what we've done.
What it means is that, farmsjust aren't sustainable like
that.
Mm-hmm.
In order to make food thatcheaply, you've gotta make it
unhealthfully, you've gotta makeit, uh, unhealthy food.
(29:16):
You've gotta, you've gotta dothings that really compromise
the environment.
And look, I'm, I'm not that muchof a tree hugger, you know what
I mean?
But.
You know, you, you've gotta bewilling to pay a little more for
your food and it it'll be betterfor you.
You know, we eat up a box in acan and we're getting to be a
big fat country full of big fatpeople who just can't control
their weight and aren't reallygetting that much great food
(29:36):
anymore.
Mark (29:36):
Yeah.
Well there, there are arecertain things though that I, in
the food and wine and restaurantworld that, uh, may be
artificially cheap, but thereare certain things in that world
that are increasing in pricequickly, very, very quickly.
Francis (29:51):
mark.
Is referring to wine, of course.
And, you know, uh, there was anarticle recently in the, in the
San Francisco, uh, gate.
Gate, yeah.
it's only in Napa Valley andBordeaux with 25.6 ounces of
fermented grape juice sell for$500.
And if you think about it, it'scrazy.
And on the top end wine pricesdespite a worldwide wine glut
(30:12):
mm-hmm.
In the, in the middle range,which is actually working to
some consumers advantage, but.
You know, I don't know what itsays long term for the industry.
the top wines are just gettingmore and more crazy expensive.
Now, in California we only havecabernet that fits into that top
tier.
Really like Screaming Eagle.
Napa Valley Cab is$1,500, for apack of three.
(30:33):
That's, uh, the most expensivecurrent release wine made in
America.
Mark (30:36):
Sure.
That's the retail price too.
That's, you wanna have it in arestaurant you can expect spend
about double that.
Francis (30:41):
Um,$300 LA in the 2002, and the 2003 was just released
and.
And that's a crazy amount ofmoney, but it's nothing compared
to the Bord Olas.
Mm-hmm.
The people in Bordeaux are goingcrazy.
Two, 2005 chat, LafitteRothchild,$600 a bottle on
pre-release.
They're buying futures.
In other words, this wine isstill in barrel, hasn't been
made in bottle yet.
Right.
Mark (31:01):
It actually, it might turn.
And you don't know
Francis (31:03):
yet, right?
And you've paid for it.
So the 2005 Chateau Laet Roth,but it's not gonna turn.
Of course, the, the 2005 chatLaet Rothchild selling for$600 a
bottle.
Chateau Margot released at$760per bottle.
$760 per bottle.
Oh, well put, put your hat backon the 2005 Chateau Pet.
(31:23):
Is$2,000 a bottle phenomenal forwines that are still in barrel
and won't be around for 18 to 24months
Mark (31:32):
and really probably shouldn't be drunk for 20 years
after that.
So let's, so let's do the maththere in the, in the future of,
of what those bottles actuallyare in future dollars you're
talking about like.
Some of those wines would, wouldfactor it to$10,000 a bottle, 20
years from now,
Francis (31:47):
$24,000 a case for pet, for a brand new Petrus if you
buy it before it's released.
Okay.
What are you gonna do with that?
Look, I, I'm, I mean, I'm allfor it if you got it, spend it.
Mm-hmm.
But, you know, is that wine ahundred times better than the$20
bottle or, um, or is it 10 timesbetter than what you can get for
$200?
(32:08):
I don't think that is, well, youdo know what's,
Mark (32:08):
you do know what's happened in the marketplace and
part of what's happened in themarketplace.
There are two things that arehappening.
A, they are collectors.
Okay.
Who just simply have to havethis in, in their arsenal.
And b, there are, there arepeople drinking wine out there
who just, you know, if you make$4 million a year, what's the
difference between a thousanddollars bottle and a$10 bottle?
Is it, is there a bigdifference?
Francis (32:29):
Yeah, I don't know.
It's just, it seems, it seemsexcessive to me.
And I'll tell you what though.
They're saying that most ofthese people who buy these
bottles in on the over 500bottle range, most of'em aren't
buying'em to drink.
They're buying them to have,they're like, it's like a stamp
collector.
You know, the thing about winethat makes it so collectible is.
You know, like a limited editionstamp you can't make anymore
after that vintage of thatparticular wine.
(32:50):
I don't understand why Bordeauxis like that, because they have
very large productions, but Iunderstand why.
You know the cult, small cultcabs, you, there's a hundred
cases in the world of thisyear's wine you love, it's, you
want it.
And if you're a collector, everyyear somebody breaks a bottle.
Mm-hmm.
Every year somebody drinks abottle.
Right.
You know, if there's one fewerone in the world.
And so from a collector'sperspective, it's interesting,
(33:10):
but from a wine lover'sperspective, I think it's kind
of gross.
Mm-hmm.
And you know what?
Nobody cares what it tasteslike.
They only care if Robert Parkergives it 99 points.
We care.
Or a hundred points probablyvalue.
If you were to open it for me, Iwould certainly drink it.
I care a lot.
But, but no, why would you care?
You're not gonna have that wine?
Actually, we probably will.
We're lucky guys, but somebodyelse is paying when we have it,
(33:31):
that's for sure.
Anyway, I wanna talk more aboutthe wine and, how much of a
bottle of wine is from.
The making of the wine and howmuch of it is just collecting
stamps?
Uh, in just a moment, you'relistening to the restaurant
guys, You're listening to therestaurant guys.
(34:01):
We're, um, can I say bitching onthe air?
I guess so.
You did.
Okay.
We're bitching out about thehigh price of, uh, cult wines
and we're not really bitching.
'cause frankly, I don't care.
I'm not, I'm not, I'm not everbuying a$2,000 bottle of wine on
release or before release.
I mean, and this is the one thatyou're supposed to age.
Look, these are, there's a pointat which it just becomes a
collector's item and it's notabout.
(34:23):
It's so singular in the way ittastes that it's really worth
it.
And I think if you read
Mark (34:28):
Parker, he would agree.
And one of the things thatFrancis and I profess, and we
truly believe this, that thegreat wines of the world cost
much more to make than the notgreat wines of the world.
Why does a hundred dollarsbottle of wine cost more than a
$3 bottle of wine will Usuallybecause a lot more has gone into
it
Francis (34:45):
and.
And we, and we could go intothe, the, the many different
expenses that go into making agreat bottle of wine, but
literally up into about ahundred dollars a bottle.
Um, this is not to say thatevery winery does this, but you
can justify the differences inprice based on the differences
of what it costs mm-hmm.
To produce grapes.
I mean, uh, in many places,lowering the yield gets you a
(35:05):
better quality of grape.
And so, you know, you got afarmer who's got a field and you
say, listen, don't make.
10 tons of grapes, right?
Prune it back so we get two tonsof grapes.
Well, those grapes are gonnacost you five times as much, and
then it goes on from there.
But once you get over a hundreddollars a bottle, you're dealing
in supply and demand.
And frankly, when you're overlike three, four, or$500 a
(35:26):
bottle, it's just a collector'sitem.
And it could be a bank, it couldbe a stamp, it could be, you
know, a rare butterfly.
I don't know what they, I don'tthink you get that much for
butterfly.
I think
Mark (35:35):
I, I think, you know, well, I guess where I, the
problem comes in for me is.
Maybe that$500 bottle of wine isbetter than the, than the a
hundred dollars bottle of wineor the$200 bottle of wine.
but I think what, what you startto see as you escalate and price
like that is that thedifferences become more subtle.
They become more nuanced, theybecome smaller.
Francis (35:56):
And I think you, you hit a point, especially with
American Cup Cabernets and withBordeaux, that it.
What the wine tastes like.
Doesn't matter.
Did Robert Parker like it?
Mm-hmm.
Is the, is the market control?
It matters what, what it tastedlike to Parker.
Right.
And, and or did the wine spectaste?
And that's no shot on RobertParker, you know?
Right.
But what it's saying is greatreviewer that people, what that
is either an investment or abobble, you know, something to
show what they have.
And you don't, you know what Imean?
(36:17):
It's a power thing.
It's not about the wine anymore.
And you know, I, let's just go,you know, mark.
Let's go have lunch.
I have a better idea.
Let, let's get a$15 bottle ofwine and collect some Berger
eggs.
I can't afford F eggs, but Ican.
Another 15 bottle of wine.
Alright, hope you've enjoyed thehour.
I'm Francis Chop.
And I'm Mark Matt.
We are the restaurant guys.
Central Jersey 1450.
Time is 12 noon.
Good morning, mark.
Good morning, Francis.
How are you this morning?
I am dynamite.
Boom.
I love that one.
That's like my favorite intro.
Francis (00:49):
If it's, you got kids that think it's funny.
Um, uh, restaurant gossip.
Have you seen the Tom Collicchiois leaving Gramercy Tavern?
Mark (00:57):
I have indeed seen.
These are, these are two of thebiggest, uh, restaurateurs.
I.
on the face of the planet, butcertainly in New York City.
Francis (01:04):
Yeah.
Indulge us if you're, if you'relistening from outside the
listening area and you're notnear New York.
Gramercy Tavern is a fantasticrestaurant.
Um, that is where they're,they've both been partners for a
long time now.
Tom Colicchio has gone on tohost top Chef.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and then of course his otherrestaurants are craft.
Uh, craft steak in Las Vegasnow.
Craft steak in New York.
Witchcraft, witchcraft, ofcourse, the sandwich shops.
(01:26):
And of course, he's just done abunch of things.
Real high profile Chef andowner.
Mark (01:29):
And Danny Meyers, a head of a large restaurant group
there that owns, he has tablaand a bunch of other
restaurants.
Tabla 11
Francis (01:35):
Madison Park, the Shake Shack.
Mm-hmm.
Mark (01:37):
and I think that for those of us, uh.
Insiders, it's always been kindof curious to us.
They had such great success withGramercy Tavern.
Uh, Rader is one of the toprestaurants in the country.
It's had a really, really nice,long run as, as a really nice
restaurant that, that's a reallycomfortable place that, that
Francis and I go to all the timeyou know, just a nice place to
(01:59):
go to with an exceptional cheesecourse.
And the food's always really,really good people eyes.
And the people are nice.
And so for us it was always kindof peculiar that these two guys,
especially when you talk to, toFrancis and me, who, uh, though
we hate each other's guts, weare, are not breaking up our
partnership after 14 or 15years.
But, uh, seriously.
(02:19):
I think it was, I think it waspeculiar to all of us that these
guys went off to do their ownprojects when they were so
successful together.
Francis (02:26):
Mark, there's a certified letter for you on your
desk when you get back up.
Just, just wanted you to knowthat.
Mark (02:31):
Thank goodness.
I hope it's an offer.
Anyway, uh, so now these guysactually have completely, uh,
separated ties, although, uh,it's reported that it's, that
it's amicable and that theseguys are still get along and
Francis (02:43):
Danny Meyer butt out.
The, so Danny
Mark (02:45):
Meyer now owns, Gramercy Tavern all, all to his very own
and continue to run it.
So good luck to everybody.
Yeah, I think that's great.
Francis (02:52):
Sorry for the, uh, local gossip for those listening
in Alaska.
Mark (02:55):
I'm not sorry we gossip sometimes.
Francis (02:56):
Um, here's just something with worldwide
implications.
Uh, this is from the AssociatedPress.
Um.
Remember we were talking withthe agribusiness people and they
said, listen, geneticallyengineered crops, there's no
problem with them.
Don't worry about them.
They'll, they'll only stay onthe farm.
Uh, the grass is escape mark,right?
The grass is escaped.
It seems as though grass,
Mark (03:16):
what's a big deal?
It's just grass.
What could it do?
It's
Francis (03:19):
seems as though the grass that was genetically
engineered for golf courses isnow growing in the wild, posing
one of the.
First threats of agriculturalbiotechnology escaping from the
farm in the United States.
Please
Mark (03:29):
note that that reads one of the first threats.
Yeah.
Because it is only the first ofmany threats yet to come
Francis (03:35):
because of the how, how about the, the pharmaceutical
corn?
Uh, the mm-hmm.
Uh, that, that they're growing.
They're trying to grow allgenetically modified plants to,
to produce drugs in them orgenetically modified plants to,
to, to change yield.
And here's the thing about this,the way modern American.
and Canadian by now Iraqi Law,uh, is read is that the company
(03:58):
that owns the geneticengineering that owns the
genetic bit of code owns anyorganism in it.
That has that code in its DNA.
So this grass that the golfcourse bought, um, escapes.
Okay.
And is now growing wild.
Mm-hmm.
Well, first of all, this grassis resistant to Roundup, which
is the most popular, herbicideused to, to kill it.
(04:19):
Right.
So.
Now you have this grass thatcan't be killed or can be
killed, but you have to use amuch more toxic right now.
You need to use something moretoxic, overside if you wanna
kill it.
It's replacing the naturalgrasses that are normally out
there threatening thebiodiversity of the planet.
And guess what, uh, the peoplewho own, uh, Scott's Miracle
(04:39):
grow or, and, and in cooperationwith roundups manufacturer.
Monsanto, um, own that geneticcode.
So literally, if that grassstarts to grow on your lawn, you
and Monsanto says, Hey, yeah,our grass is growing on your
lawn.
You've gotta pay us a licensingfee.
Mark (04:54):
So if you own the golf course next door to the golf
course that's growing thisengineer, no.
If you own the
Francis (04:59):
backyard, oh, hold on.
Mark (05:00):
Let's, let's start, let's let, and this grass begins
growing in on your property.
You now.
Can be sued by Monsanto forhaving a grass growing on your
property that you didn't plant,that you didn't want, because
the wind blew it across from,from one golf course to another.
We'll take this the next step.
You own the yard next to thegolf course, next to the golf
(05:24):
course and the the thirdgeneration of grass.
Now grass seed now blows ontoyour lawn.
Starts crowding out your tomatoplants
Francis (05:36):
and you go and get, not only
Mark (05:37):
do you have an issue with your tomato plants,
Francis (05:40):
right, and then you go and get some roundup'cause you
don't wanna do the weeding.
Mm-hmm.
And you spray it on there and itdoesn't work.
So you gotta pull'em out byhand.
But also if your lawn getscrowded out by the creeping bent
grass that was geneticallymodified, which has been
modified, uh, by Monsanto andScott's Miracle Grow, to resist
Roundup.
Mm-hmm.
They can come and say, Hey,you've got our genetic material
(06:01):
on your lawn.
You need to pass a licensingfee.
And the United States andCanadian law has held that up.
It sounds unbelievable.
Because I think it should be,Hey, your genetic materials on
my lawn, get it off.
Get, get it off my lawn.
But that's not how it works.
Okay.
Because the corporations have atremendous amount of control,
and I'll refer you to our showthat we did on the future of
(06:22):
Food.
Mm-hmm.
Which you can find our on ourwebsite, which was.
a film produced documentaryproduced by Deborah Konz Garcia,
where she talks in depth aboutPercy Schmeer, who is the
Canadian farmer who took it allthe way to the Canadian Supreme
Court and the American law isthe same.
And lost because, and lostbecause.
They own the life form itself,even if it's the child or the
(06:45):
grandchild of that life form.
So, uh, now the, uh, the toapologist, uh, geneticist says,
um, what's his name?
Uh, this is not a killer tomato.
It's not the asparagus that ateCleveland said Norman l Strand,
a geneticist and plant expert atthe University of California
know that's coming next.
Mark (07:03):
Yeah.
But what we, what we do know isin the wild, we're getting
hybrids here.
Okay.
And if we can get hybrids, wecan get other hybrids that that
can affect.
And Francis said this before,the biodiversity of what is in
our fields is what?
In the wild grasses that aregrowing in, the grasses that
grow on our lawns.
In the, in what is in our, onour farms.
(07:24):
Okay?
For all we know, uh, thesegrasses could.
Uh, it could become strongerthan, uh, the corn that's in our
fields.
And then we have to createsomething that kills the grass,
but doesn't clear kill the corn.
And we just keep going down thishorrible, horrible cycle
Francis (07:42):
here.
And now, here's the deal.
Uh, and just so you allunderstand what's going on here,
this grass can cross breededwith your grass.
Mm-hmm.
Making a new type of grass.
But since it has that samegenetic material, Monsanto still
owns it.
Okay.
Now hold on a second.
So and so you have, what if it
Mark (07:57):
crossbred with a.
A grass that somebody elsebesides Monsanto owned who would
own the new grass with bothgenetic materials in it, you,
you would have to pay licensingfees
Francis (08:08):
for the both to both of 'em is exactly
Mark (08:11):
what would happen.
You'd have to pay them both.
Francis (08:13):
Um, you shouldn't be able to own life.
And if they were 10 of'em,
Mark (08:16):
you'd have
Francis (08:16):
to
Mark (08:16):
pay it
Francis (08:16):
to 10 of them.
You shouldn't be able to patentlife and you shouldn't be able
to change DNA and then releaseit into the environment where
this grass can cross with thatgrass and can cross with that
grass and cross with that grass.
And remember.
Any of these hybrids, they sayit can cross with about 10
different species.
Mm-hmm.
Any of those hybrids that comefrom, you can get 10 different
crosses from 10 differentspecies.
We've already got a hundreddifferent things out there.
And Monsanto's responsible forthe DNA that was created in a
(08:39):
laboratory and if it
Mark (08:39):
blows on your lawn and grows, you have to pay them or
legally,
Francis (08:43):
and all I have to say is, does anybody remember kudzu?
Okay, kudzu is taking over thesouth, climbing up telephone
poles.
You know, it's, it's a menaceand at least that was, had a
native predator somewhere on theplanet.
Anyway.
Alright, now in just a momentwe'll be talking with William
Alexander.
His book is the$64 Tomato.
It's a gardener's memoir abouthow when he figured it all out,
what he spent on gardening histomatoes wound up costing him$64
(09:06):
a piece.
It's a great memoir.
Uh, and he'll be here to talkwith us in just a moment.
You're listening to theRestaurant Guys, Hey everybody
and welcome back.
You're listening to theRestaurant guys, mark and
Francis of Captain Lombardi andStage Left Restaurants in
downtown New Brunswick, NewJersey.
Um, the$64 tomato is agardener's memoir.
William Alexander's book relateshis many trying and many
rewarding experiences with his2000 square foot garden with 22
(09:30):
beds, and I think one of themost interesting points.
Uh, welcome to the show,William.
Thank you.
William (09:34):
Nice to be on the show.
Francis (09:34):
I think one of the most interesting points you said is
that, you know, after you'destablished this 2000 square
foot garden with 22 beds and youhad a vision of, a Victorian
garden in your head, what yourealized is the Victorians had a
lot of servants.
William (09:45):
Yeah.
I mean, one of the things that,you know, I think.
I think the problem that my, mywife and I had was we looked at
this space, try to figure outwhat to do with this space for
two years.
And during those two years, forChristmas, for birthdays, for
Father's Day, we gave each otherlarge format garden books.
The kind we've all seen withtitles like Monet's Garden as
(10:06):
Veni, and great VictorianGardens.
You know, we're, we're talkingabout garden porn
Speaker 5 (10:13):
and in our, in
William (10:14):
our, we were young kids of like 43.
We, we didn't realize the nuancethat every everybody else did,
which is of course, one of thethings that made great Victorian
Gardens great is that they camewith great Victorian gardeners,
Francis (10:28):
by the way.
And those great Victoriangardeners had great Victorian
laborers working under thegardeners.
William (10:31):
They sure did.
They had lots of help.
And it was just little old mestanding out there in the middle
of those 22 beds and 2000 squarefeet.
Mark (10:39):
Alright, recognize that 2000 square feet here in Central
Jersey.
You, we put like four houses onthat.
Yeah.
Francis (10:45):
So, so now you had, let's, let's talk about, so you
decide you are going to takethis space and you're gonna make
a garden.
So you had contractors come into lay the beds.
Why don't you start with yourarc, with your initial
experience in putting thisgarden together.
William (10:58):
So.
Well, we realized the space was,was deeply sloped and it held
water like a, like a wet spot.
And so we knew that we, that weneeded help.
And, um, and the woman thatcame, came over I, I guess it's
safe to say that we chose her,not so much for her background
in building this type of agarden because she had never.
Done that.
(11:19):
But um, my wife really liked herbeautiful teeth, her great
smile, and when she started tospeak the Latin names for the
plants, I just went head, headover heels.
And then the real thing though,was her dirty fingernails.
And so she had all the, all theright stuff.
It seemed a certain zenner her,as it were.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
William (11:38):
And then from her, we went to a, a gardener who bore a
scary and incredibly remarkably,um, accurate resemblance of the
actor Christopher Walken, bothan appearance ending in spirit
Uhhuh one might say,
Mark (11:53):
I don't feel really good about that.
William (11:54):
And, uh, well, you know, I, I should have known
from the start because my, mywife called him and he appeared
at the house like in 90.
Seconds.
And we all know whether it's aplumber or carpenter or a a, a
gardener, the better thecontractor the longer it takes
to get'em to your house.
Right?
Yeah.
If, if you get'em at, at all.
Francis (12:12):
So what happened with these contractors that they
didn't work out?
William (12:15):
Well, walk-in, um, looked like he was doing a, a
good job,
Speaker 5 (12:20):
Uhhuh.
William (12:20):
And uh, until, uh, he got to the point where he was,
he was undoing the work of thefirst con contractor by the way.
'cause he, we had to lay.
a, uh, four inch steel platealong the edge of the beds
because the, a woman who, uh,who had built the garden for us
thought that, um, Kentucky bluegrass would look beautiful
running up the middle of thisgarden.
(12:41):
Well, Kentucky Blue Grass is aweed.
It grows by underground runners,and at no time at all, I was
spending most of my timeweeding, pulling grass out of my
beds.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Oh, no.
So we've gotta
William (12:52):
get some, some edging in there.
So that's when we called.
Walking in and he was doing agreat job.
And I have to say, having agardener for a while was great
to go to work and come home andsee work having been done in
your garden while, while youweren't there.
Speaker 5 (13:05):
Yeah, that's not fair.
Was
William (13:06):
magical uhhuh and, uh, and things were going fine until
he thought that the gardencenter had shorted him a dozen
of the spikes that hold theedging to the, to the ground,
and he was ready to grab his AK47 and go over and settle the
score.
So we felt it was best to partways at, at that point, rather
than
Mark (13:24):
have'em fire off a few rounds in the local, uh, yeah.
Herb.
Francis (13:29):
So, so how did, how do you wind up getting it finished?
William (13:32):
Well, I've spent a lot of time out there.
Mm-hmm.
You know, all of my leisure timeand, well, it's hard to call
leisure.
I was gonna say,
Mark (13:38):
it's not leisure time,
William (13:40):
you know, look, it's, it's also a, a labor of love.
It's, it's the garden that you,you can't live with and you
can't live with without, youknow.
Francis (13:49):
So now this has become a really important part of your
family life, this garden, right?
William (13:53):
Yeah.
And you know, at one point I, Ikind of compare it to, you know,
it's like a part of the.
family, it's a relative, not somuch the beloved.
Grandma that you kind of taketake care of in her old age, but
more like that kind of loud,obnoxious uncle that we all try
to avoid at the weddings, whospends way beyond his means.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, and stands
Mark (14:13):
a little too close to you and gets a little saliva on you
when he talks.
William (14:16):
Exactly, but you know, even so, it's still a member of
the family and you know, when,when we take out a better or
two, you know, the kids mourn.
They, they gave me a real hardtime the year that I, I told'em
I, I couldn't grow corn anymore.
They said, you want us to buycorn at the farm stand
Francis (14:36):
now.
Now with a, with a garden thissize, do you ever get to even go
away on vacation in thesummertime or does do it require
year round tending or all summerlong tending.
Well,
William (14:45):
we sneak a week in here and there, but we have not taken
a vacation in August in years,because August is, of course, in
the northeast is when everythingcomes in.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
Mm-hmm.
William (14:54):
You know, the beans and tomatoes and the, and this is
nutty.
I'll be the first one to admitthis.
This is nuts.
Francis (15:01):
Are, do you work, do you work more hours on your
garden or your job?
William (15:04):
Um, on my job, I have to say.
I'm sitting at my job now, soI'll answer at, at.
At my job, but I'll admit thatwhile I'm at my job, my mind
isn't always on my job.
Francis (15:14):
We, we we're gonna talk more with, uh, William Alexander
about his experience planting a2000 square foot garden why did
you call your book the$64tomato?
William (15:22):
Well, let me choose my words very carefully here.
Um, this was my wife's fault andshe was passing through the
garden, won late summer night,and she walked past one of my
prize brand new wines and said,oh, what a beautiful tomato.
And I said Something not sowitty, like, yeah, it ought to
(15:43):
be, it probably cost us about 20bucks to, to grow.
And I knew that it did, and itprobably cost us.
Three or four, though I guessit'd been kind of a, a rough
year in the garden.
I hadn't gotten many, thegroundhog had gotten as many as
I had, but it started methinking what had I actually
spent to, to grow those.
So that night I sat down, I gotback all the records that, uh,
(16:03):
of having the garden built and Ispread that out over 20 years.
That's a good life.
So you advertise
Francis (16:09):
the, the cost,
William (16:10):
advertise it over over 20 years.
That's fair.
You're
Mark (16:12):
gonna have the life of, you're gonna have the garden for
20 years.
William (16:17):
GM or someone, I could deduct all those costs in one,
one year, but I'm not right.
I advertise it over, over 20years.
Looked at what I had spent thatyear, which was the real
shocking part.
You don't realize all thoseSaturday morning trips to the
garden center and the, you know,the hedge trimmers you leave out
in the rain and all that.
Stuff.
It just, it, it adds up.
Mark (16:36):
For me, it was always the hedge trimmers that I cut the
cord on as I was trimming thehedges and went to go back and
get that little branch that Ihad just missed.
Francis (16:45):
Mm-hmm.
So you really came up with a$64per tomato cost when you figured
it all out.
William (16:50):
Yes, that was, that was the cost of each of the 19 brand
new wines that I had hadharvested in that, in that
season.
Mark (16:57):
That's awesome.
I love the way you actually do,I mean, in, in the book you'll
see the actual math of how thisall breaks down.
And, and, and not to mention thefact that you're advertising,
you know, a lot of the fixedcauses over 20 years.
Very good generally acceptedaccounting principles here.
You've done a thank you.
You did a very good job, withthe numbers here just to.
To make this all work out.
Uh,
Francis (17:17):
so was the tomato really, really good?
William (17:20):
You know, you know, I, I I, I kind of went through
something once I had done thismath, and, and I, I would say
that this is something youprobably don't wanna do at, at,
at home Kids Uhhuh.
But once I had done this, Ithink I went through something
akin to the, the five stages of,of grief, denial, and shock.
And then I just kind of came tosay, okay, this is, this is what
(17:41):
it costs.
And the way I.
I look at it now is, you know,coming back to the concept that
the Garden, being a familymember.
When my kids are grown and outof the house, I don't think I'm
going to, I hope I'm not goingto look back and say, gee, the
cost of all those oboe lessonsand summer camp, was Katie
really worth it.
And we, we think the same wayabout the garden.
My favorite line
Mark (18:02):
in the book is.
you ask your wife, uh, if it wasit worth it, and she says, maybe
that one filled with crab.
Anyway, we'll be right back.
You're listening to therestaurant guys,
Francis (18:11):
The book is the$64 tomato, how one man nearly lost
his sanity, spent a fortune andendured an existential crisis in
the quest for the perfectgarden.
That man is William Alexanderand it's his memoir, and we're
talking to him today.
Now, William, this, you have agarden this size.
Does this pretty much feed yourfamily in summertime?
William (18:30):
Uh, some, some years it, it, it really does.
Um, other years are a littlelight.
Mark (18:37):
Have you, you know what would help you if, uh, you need
to feed your family during thesummer is a groundhog stew.
Yeah.
Francis (18:44):
Talk to us about the kind of tribulations that a,
that a, a gardener finds thatyour person who's not really
into gardening might, uh, wespoke about a groundhog earlier,
but what were the enemies thatyou battled to make this garden
produce?
William (18:56):
Well, we mentioned the groundhog.
Deer, of course, are justrampant.
Um, my, my latest battle waswith the, the neighbor's cats
who insist on peeing on myorganic lettuce.
Mark (19:08):
That's still organic,
William (19:10):
although, yeah, well, you know, I think I found a way
to get, get even with them.
I started to use their litterbox.
But, um, I think the moral isthat, you know, you can bring in
as I have electric fences and,and wires and I've heard of
people bringing in dogs.
No matter what you do, animalsare going to get into your
garden because of the simpletruth.
(19:30):
You may be smarter, but they'vegot more time.
Francis (19:32):
Yeah, yeah.
They're, they've got nothingelse to do full time.
That's right.
That,
William (19:35):
that, that groundhog's job while you're at work, his
job is to, is to figure out howto get to your garden.
Francis (19:41):
So talk to us about the groundhog.
Problem that you had in the, theone groundhog that you hug, that
you nicknamed super.
William (19:47):
Yeah, and I, I never had a problem with, with gr
groundhogs over the years,'causeI have this.
Electric fence.
Uh, but my neighbor, uh, doesnot have such a fence, and he,
he would complain.
So I would just pull this groundgroundhog gap.
It's a place under my littlebarn where there's always one,
and I, so I would trap it, andwithin a week or so, through
(20:07):
some, I don't know, groundhog's,Craigslist, a new one would move
in and I would eventually traptrap him and, and things were,
were fine.
Until the day that I saw thebiggest fattest groundhog I'd
ever seen sitting in my garden,munching on a brand new wine,
Francis (20:22):
drinking a beer and smoking a cigar.
Just to figure out how he got,yeah,
William (20:24):
were flying in the sun like, you know, Bridgette bar,
bar Bardo or someone, and Icould not trap this ground
groundhog.
I couldn't figure out how he wasgetting in.
And then I found out that my,electric fence, the charger had,
uh, had failed to bid on me.
And I was only getting a mere3000 volts out of, instead of
the six I was.
supposed to be getting out thecharger.
(20:45):
So I went and I bought a newcharger and figured as long as
I'm buying a new one, let's,let's juice up the baby.
So now I had a 10,000 voltcharger, and the groundhog would
approach the fence, jump throughthe wires.
I.
Shake it off, shutter and shakeit off like a quarterback taking
a hit, really move on, eat thetomatoes just
Francis (21:05):
a little bit of, and then, uh, onto dinner.
William (21:08):
He didn't seem to mind.
And then he would take a littlenap and he would kind of brace
himself and he'd take the zip onthe way out.
So at that point, when I startedtalking to my wife about, well,
maybe we need a few more voltsat this point, guys, I was ready
to hook it up to the, the, thestreet current of that.
Right.
The light
Mark (21:23):
dimed every time Super chuck went into the, into the
garden.
William (21:26):
But then I, I saw something, it made me realize it
wouldn't have mattered if I hada hundred thousand volts there
because, uh, the way thatelectric fence works is that it
sends out this charge once everysecond, and there's a pause,
boom, boom.
And I watched this guy approachthe fence.
Wait and leap through in the onesecond pause between the
(21:47):
charges.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
How did
William (21:50):
he know?
Well, I don't know.
He is a groundhog.
How he knows.
But then what really struck mewas that I realized I had
created this groundhog.
I had made super chuck becauseby taking away the dumb easy to
trap ones.
These guys were really the idealtenants.
They were the ones they shouldhave been leaving, and it was in
(22:10):
a very Darwinian way.
It was guaranteed a sooner orlater I would get a ground
groundhog that was too smart forthe trap uhhuh,
Francis (22:20):
and
William (22:20):
also would find a way to get into my, my garden.
So how does
Francis (22:23):
this story end?
Did we ever get rid of SuperChuck?
William (22:25):
Well, I have to say the story ends badly for, for us
both.
I don't want, I don't wannaspoil the ending, but I'll say
there were no, no winners here.
Francis (22:33):
You poisoned super chuck, didn't you?
I'm not telling.
Alright.
Alright.
I
William (22:37):
love animals.
Francis (22:37):
No, I love animals too.
Medium rare with a little bitof, a little bit of barbecue
sauce.
Um, so now people think you werecrazy when you planted this 2000
square foot garden.
How did the neighbors react?
William (22:51):
Um, yeah, they just kind of looked at me, the, the
very first words of the, of theguy next.
Next, next door.
The very first words of thegarden as I was exalting in my
brand new topsoil had just beenbrought in that I, I shudder to
remind myself$60 a yard and Iwas in my garden joint.
From the very first words Iheard were gonna be a lot of
(23:12):
weeding.
I had my own Greek chorus nextdoor who would kind of keep,
keep an eye on things and, andwarn me about the weeds and the
gr groundhogs.
And, and he was right.
Most, Of the time.
Mark (23:24):
my dad had a, a little farm up in upstate New York when
I was growing up, that we wouldgo to on weekends.
And my grandmother lived, uh, infull time.
And what I remember is when wedecided to do that big garden,
and it was pretty similar insize to the one you did.
What I remember is taking rocksbecause we had to rott till and,
and you would remove the rocksas the rocks came up to the
surface.
(23:44):
The, the rocks that we removedhad to be, if about twice the
size of the garden.
I still don't understand.
Today we built a giant rock wallthat was, you know, probably
4,000 square feet out of our2000 square foot garden.
And I, and, and nature is a veryfunny thing, and that, that
punishes us for such decisions.
Yeah.
William (24:02):
They, they call that growing rocks.
What it.
Francis (24:10):
The motivation behind the garden?
I mean, is it mostly foraesthetic beauty of the, of
being in the garden or the, thework and how it brings the
family together or the food thatyou get out of it?
What,
William (24:20):
what's the, you know, it, it, it's really a complex
question and I, I've given thata lot of thought and I, I think
it's all of those things, butwhen, when push comes to shove
and I really get kind of tiredof it and I'd rather be doing
something else on a Saturdayinstead of slaving away at it,
and I.
Consider not having a garden orhaving a much smaller garden.
(24:43):
What always comes back is, butman, I'm gonna miss that fresh
lettuce.
So I really think that it'sabout the food for us.
Mark (24:51):
Now do, do your, now you were talking about your kids
earlier.
I was 12, 14, 15, years oldwhen, when my dad had the farm,
and all I remember is going tothe grocery store and saying,
huh, 10 pounds of potatoes forthree bucks.
Maybe we should buy thepotatoes.
Dad, this is a lot of work.
It's really, really hard.
(25:12):
Do, do your kids feel the sameway
William (25:13):
I, I, you know, I was hoping my kids would be more in,
involved in, in the garden too,and that, and that was part of
the plan.
And that first year, the gardenwas finished in the spring.
So for, for Easter, instead ofthe kids getting chocolate
bunnies and then so on, they gottheir own little kid sized
garden tools, those really cuteones
Speaker 5 (25:33):
and their own
William (25:33):
gardening gloves.
Um, a book Gardening for Kids.
And the best news of all wasthat, uh, the, the news that
they could have each their owntwo beds.
In the garden.
And they reacted honestly, asif, um, we had told them that
instead of going to school fromnow on, they'd be working in
the, in the mines.
Couldn't be less enthused aboutthe garden.
Mark (25:54):
They really wanted those little yellow peeps instead,
didn't they?
They, they sure did.
That's, that's, you know, thatmight have been a little nicer.
Uh, anyway, one of the thingsthat I remember about the garden
is my dad telling me, yeah,asparagus, uh, takes three years
to grow.
Three years.
I don't have three years to, towait for this.
I mean, the, the other thingthat I, that I learned, I think
(26:14):
from, from my dad's garden andfrom his farm was patience was,
was that the rewards of patiencecame, you know.
From, from waiting in the gardenand, and watching what happened
and, and tasting that deliciousfood.
William (26:28):
Yeah.
I'm still hoping that thatpatients will, will come to me.
Um, one of the things that I didwhen I, when I built the garden,
I had a water spout, a littlespigot so I could put a drip,
drip hose in mm-hmm.
Speaker 5 (26:39):
On
William (26:40):
every bed.
And, uh, and that first winterwhen the garden was there, and
as, as the snow melted, I hadthese obscene, tall black.
Pipes with a faucet each about afoot high.
Speaker 5 (26:51):
Mm-hmm.
And
William (26:51):
it looked like, you know, an abandoned oil rig.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
Mm-hmm.
William (26:55):
And so I went out with my glue and my fittings, and I
cut everything down to sit likefour inches from the ground.
And didn't realize that overtime my beds would get taller
when I added things to them.
And now every time I go out to,uh, hook on a hose, I have to
battle with the darn thing.
And I'm, I'm always tellingmyself that.
(27:17):
Patience in the garden.
It's a good thing.
I should try to remember that.
Yeah,
Francis (27:20):
exactly.
Hey William, I wanna thank youfor coming on the show to talk
with us about your book.
It was great.
William (27:24):
Thank you.
It's been fun.
Alright, take care.
Thanks very much, William.
Francis (27:26):
That's, that's William Alexander.
The book is the$64 Tomato.
Uh, and you can find out moreabout it on our website,
restaurant guys radio.com.
You're listening to theRestaurant Guys, You know, I, I
fully sympathize with that guy.
Mm-hmm.
This the$64 tomato I got.
Can I got, can I tell you?
Mark (27:42):
Got that this year?
Yeah.
I did not get to eat a singletomato.
Why?
Because there's a littlesquirrel.
And he goes, and he takes mytomatoes and my neighbor said he
saw'em, okay?
Mm-hmm.
He says, I've seen'em every day.
And he says, every day he picksa little tomato off your tomato
plants, you know, little, youknow the ones that's just
starting to turn before I wouldpick them, but you know, it
seems to be just right for mylittle squirrel friend, Uhhuh.
(28:04):
And he says he runs over and hesits behind this little tree
that overlooks my my neighbor'sproperty.
And he eats my tomato, has a
Francis (28:11):
bottle of wine,
Mark (28:13):
and he's really making me mad.
And, and I'm not thinking aboutthe have a heart trap.
Okay?
That's not, that's not what'srunning through my head.
But seriously, one of the thingsthat, Bill talked about in this
book is that, when you do allthis backbreaking work and you
do understand a little bit aboutwhat goes into growing some of
the foods that we grow.
It's, it is amazing that wehave, you can buy a pound of
(28:37):
string beans for a dollar.
Francis and I have said before,we think some of the prices on
some foods are artificiallyinexpensive and that maybe we
should be paying a little bitmore for some of the foods that
we eat and it should be a littlebit higher percentage of what we
spend out of our pockets.
In
Francis (28:53):
the 1950s and sixties, the average American family
spent working class familiesspent.
And middle class families spent50% of their disposable income
on food.
Mm-hmm.
Today, the average family spends10%.
That's a big difference.
It's what we've done.
What it means is that, farmsjust aren't sustainable like
that.
Mm-hmm.
In order to make food thatcheaply, you've gotta make it
unhealthfully, you've gotta makeit, uh, unhealthy food.
(29:16):
You've gotta, you've gotta dothings that really compromise
the environment.
And look, I'm, I'm not that muchof a tree hugger, you know what
I mean?
But.
You know, you, you've gotta bewilling to pay a little more for
your food and it it'll be betterfor you.
You know, we eat up a box in acan and we're getting to be a
big fat country full of big fatpeople who just can't control
their weight and aren't reallygetting that much great food
(29:36):
anymore.
Mark (29:36):
Yeah.
Well there, there are arecertain things though that I, in
the food and wine and restaurantworld that, uh, may be
artificially cheap, but thereare certain things in that world
that are increasing in pricequickly, very, very quickly.
Francis (29:51):
mark.
Is referring to wine, of course.
And, you know, uh, there was anarticle recently in the, in the
San Francisco, uh, gate.
Gate, yeah.
it's only in Napa Valley andBordeaux with 25.6 ounces of
fermented grape juice sell for$500.
And if you think about it, it'scrazy.
And on the top end wine pricesdespite a worldwide wine glut
(30:12):
mm-hmm.
In the, in the middle range,which is actually working to
some consumers advantage, but.
You know, I don't know what itsays long term for the industry.
the top wines are just gettingmore and more crazy expensive.
Now, in California we only havecabernet that fits into that top
tier.
Really like Screaming Eagle.
Napa Valley Cab is$1,500, for apack of three.
(30:33):
That's, uh, the most expensivecurrent release wine made in
America.
Mark (30:36):
Sure.
That's the retail price too.
That's, you wanna have it in arestaurant you can expect spend
about double that.
Francis (30:41):
Um,$300 LA in the 2002, and the 2003 was just released
and.
And that's a crazy amount ofmoney, but it's nothing compared
to the Bord Olas.
Mm-hmm.
The people in Bordeaux are goingcrazy.
Two, 2005 chat, LafitteRothchild,$600 a bottle on
pre-release.
They're buying futures.
In other words, this wine isstill in barrel, hasn't been
made in bottle yet.
Right.
Mark (31:01):
It actually, it might turn.
And you don't know
Francis (31:03):
yet, right?
And you've paid for it.
So the 2005 Chateau Laet Roth,but it's not gonna turn.
Of course, the, the 2005 chatLaet Rothchild selling for$600 a
bottle.
Chateau Margot released at$760per bottle.
$760 per bottle.
Oh, well put, put your hat backon the 2005 Chateau Pet.
(31:23):
Is$2,000 a bottle phenomenal forwines that are still in barrel
and won't be around for 18 to 24months
Mark (31:32):
and really probably shouldn't be drunk for 20 years
after that.
So let's, so let's do the maththere in the, in the future of,
of what those bottles actuallyare in future dollars you're
talking about like.
Some of those wines would, wouldfactor it to$10,000 a bottle, 20
years from now,
Francis (31:47):
$24,000 a case for pet, for a brand new Petrus if you
buy it before it's released.
Okay.
What are you gonna do with that?
Look, I, I'm, I mean, I'm allfor it if you got it, spend it.
Mm-hmm.
But, you know, is that wine ahundred times better than the$20
bottle or, um, or is it 10 timesbetter than what you can get for
$200?
(32:08):
I don't think that is, well, youdo know what's,
Mark (32:08):
you do know what's happened in the marketplace and
part of what's happened in themarketplace.
There are two things that arehappening.
A, they are collectors.
Okay.
Who just simply have to havethis in, in their arsenal.
And b, there are, there arepeople drinking wine out there
who just, you know, if you make$4 million a year, what's the
difference between a thousanddollars bottle and a$10 bottle?
Is it, is there a bigdifference?
Francis (32:29):
Yeah, I don't know.
It's just, it seems, it seemsexcessive to me.
And I'll tell you what though.
They're saying that most ofthese people who buy these
bottles in on the over 500bottle range, most of'em aren't
buying'em to drink.
They're buying them to have,they're like, it's like a stamp
collector.
You know, the thing about winethat makes it so collectible is.
You know, like a limited editionstamp you can't make anymore
after that vintage of thatparticular wine.
(32:50):
I don't understand why Bordeauxis like that, because they have
very large productions, but Iunderstand why.
You know the cult, small cultcabs, you, there's a hundred
cases in the world of thisyear's wine you love, it's, you
want it.
And if you're a collector, everyyear somebody breaks a bottle.
Mm-hmm.
Every year somebody drinks abottle.
Right.
You know, if there's one fewerone in the world.
And so from a collector'sperspective, it's interesting,
(33:10):
but from a wine lover'sperspective, I think it's kind
of gross.
Mm-hmm.
And you know what?
Nobody cares what it tasteslike.
They only care if Robert Parkergives it 99 points.
We care.
Or a hundred points probablyvalue.
If you were to open it for me, Iwould certainly drink it.
I care a lot.
But, but no, why would you care?
You're not gonna have that wine?
Actually, we probably will.
We're lucky guys, but somebodyelse is paying when we have it,
(33:31):
that's for sure.
Anyway, I wanna talk more aboutthe wine and, how much of a
bottle of wine is from.
The making of the wine and howmuch of it is just collecting
stamps?
Uh, in just a moment, you'relistening to the restaurant
guys, You're listening to therestaurant guys.
(34:01):
We're, um, can I say bitching onthe air?
I guess so.
You did.
Okay.
We're bitching out about thehigh price of, uh, cult wines
and we're not really bitching.
'cause frankly, I don't care.
I'm not, I'm not, I'm not everbuying a$2,000 bottle of wine on
release or before release.
I mean, and this is the one thatyou're supposed to age.
Look, these are, there's a pointat which it just becomes a
collector's item and it's notabout.
(34:23):
It's so singular in the way ittastes that it's really worth
it.
And I think if you read
Mark (34:28):
Parker, he would agree.
And one of the things thatFrancis and I profess, and we
truly believe this, that thegreat wines of the world cost
much more to make than the notgreat wines of the world.
Why does a hundred dollarsbottle of wine cost more than a
$3 bottle of wine will Usuallybecause a lot more has gone into
it
Francis (34:45):
and.
And we, and we could go intothe, the, the many different
expenses that go into making agreat bottle of wine, but
literally up into about ahundred dollars a bottle.
Um, this is not to say thatevery winery does this, but you
can justify the differences inprice based on the differences
of what it costs mm-hmm.
To produce grapes.
I mean, uh, in many places,lowering the yield gets you a
(35:05):
better quality of grape.
And so, you know, you got afarmer who's got a field and you
say, listen, don't make.
10 tons of grapes, right?
Prune it back so we get two tonsof grapes.
Well, those grapes are gonnacost you five times as much, and
then it goes on from there.
But once you get over a hundreddollars a bottle, you're dealing
in supply and demand.
And frankly, when you're overlike three, four, or$500 a
(35:26):
bottle, it's just a collector'sitem.
And it could be a bank, it couldbe a stamp, it could be, you
know, a rare butterfly.
I don't know what they, I don'tthink you get that much for
butterfly.
I think
Mark (35:35):
I, I think, you know, well, I guess where I, the
problem comes in for me is.
Maybe that$500 bottle of wine isbetter than the, than the a
hundred dollars bottle of wineor the$200 bottle of wine.
but I think what, what you startto see as you escalate and price
like that is that thedifferences become more subtle.
They become more nuanced, theybecome smaller.
Francis (35:56):
And I think you, you hit a point, especially with
American Cup Cabernets and withBordeaux, that it.
What the wine tastes like.
Doesn't matter.
Did Robert Parker like it?
Mm-hmm.
Is the, is the market control?
It matters what, what it tastedlike to Parker.
Right.
And, and or did the wine spectaste?
And that's no shot on RobertParker, you know?
Right.
But what it's saying is greatreviewer that people, what that
is either an investment or abobble, you know, something to
show what they have.
And you don't, you know what Imean?
(36:17):
It's a power thing.
It's not about the wine anymore.
And you know, I, let's just go,you know, mark.
Let's go have lunch.
I have a better idea.
Let, let's get a$15 bottle ofwine and collect some Berger
eggs.
I can't afford F eggs, but Ican.
Another 15 bottle of wine.
Alright, hope you've enjoyed thehour.
I'm Francis Chop.
And I'm Mark Matt.
We are the restaurant guys.
Central Jersey 1450.
Time is 12 noon.
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