Customer-acquisition costs exploded online. Smart brands are responding with bricks, data—and a dash of theatre.
⚡️ What we tackle in 20 minutes
- Physical retail as the new CAC – DTC brands discover rent can be cheaper than Meta ads when the store becomes a stage.
- Aesop’s $2.5 billion masterclass – From Melbourne to 400 boutiques, every location is bespoke, scented, and digitally wired for replenishment.
- Digital-first, store-second – Love, Bonito show why in-store staff now behave like consultants, not cashiers.
- Cross-border marketplaces – Shopee, Amazon AU, Trade Me and Afterpay’s “shop day” rewrite payments, language, and trust across ASEAN.
- Post-purchase power moves – Hand-written notes, sticker packs, friction-free returns. Retention is the real growth engine—and AI search will only raise the stakes.
Retailers & platforms in play
Aesop • L’Oréal • Love, Bonito • Temple & Webster • Amazon • eBay • Shopee • Afterpay • Trade Me • Kingfisher/B&Q • JD Sports • HP • Perplexity AI
Hosts
- Alex – Founder, The Retail Podcast, decoding global retail shifts.
- Ryf Quail – Leads NRF APAC, guiding brands across Asia-Pacific.
- Laura Doonin – Tech strategist turning omnichannel ambition into reality.
Liked the conversation? Hit follow, drop a five-star review, and share it with a teammate who still thinks “online first” is a plan.
00:00 Intro – heatwaves, cold snaps, and one crisp Sydney morning
01:05 Topic 1 – Physical stores as customer-acquisition engines
03:20 Topic 2 – Aesop: $2.5 B valuation built on scent & signature design
06:36 Topic 3 – Digital-heritage brands opening doors (Love, Bonito)
10:39 Topic 4 – Region-level marketplaces: Shopee, Amazon AU, Trade Me, Afterpay
15:07 Topic 5 – Post-purchase, returns, and the loyalty multiplier
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome back to another exciting edition of Five
Things Friday. I'm joined by my Co host Laura
Reeve. Hello.
Hello, Alex. On another sunny day in Sydney.
It is very sunny in Sydney today.
It's not raining. No glory.
It's it's cool. It's cool and crisp and clear.
(00:21):
Oh, wow, OK, it's, it's in the UK, it's coming to a heat wave.
And in Spain it already is a heat wave was like 30 something
degrees. So it's very, very hot.
Well, listen, without any further ado, let's let's jump
straight in. Laura, why don't we start with
you? OK.
Hi, everyone. So something that has been on my
(00:42):
mind some. My first point is as physical
retail or should I say rent the new CAC, the new customer
acquisition cost. So let's caveat this probably if
you're a very deep data-driven pureplay, you might disagree
with us completely. So maybe more thinking about mid
market direct to consumer brandsgoing up to more enterprise
(01:05):
level brands and retailers is who my audience or who I'm
thinking about is. So I know that of investors are
potentially CFO's like fixed price, fixed costs as enemy, but
I think we're definitely seeing even globally this kind of move
that everyone's kind of retail, physical retail is not dead
Online is not the Holy Grail with came here consensus that
(01:28):
the digital channel is the gateway, it's your storefront,
it's your flagship store. But we're still seeing a
majority of the retailers going into the physical retail.
They want to touch, see, feel, experience the brand.
So yeah, I'm I'm seeing why is that happening?
I think that what's happening isthis X we've spoke about it last
week, the experience piece and retail has to be better.
(01:51):
Stores are now becoming a littlebit of theatre and he I guess
it's like, have you got your open physical retail?
Make sure it counts, pack the right place, do your research
first. Obviously all these things, you
know, you can't just open a store and the wrong area.
It's not going to work. But if you're doing that
investigation, you know it's right.
And a little bit this is driven because of the way people want
(02:13):
to shop. But also it's when I say the new
CAC, it's so expensive now you acquire a new customer on Maya.
That's just the truth. And we're seeing a lot of mid
market brands direct to consumerbrands that are leaning back in
a storefront because it's cheaper, it's cheaper to get a
new customer. And someone described it like
online marketing is like hunting, whereas the physical
(02:35):
stories like fishing. So so that's my number one
point. It kind of dovetails into my
second point of what I want to speak to.
Since we've been doing this, I've been like, where are the
hero Australian brands that really like that David and
Goliath thing? Who's the, the the brands from
this market that could really step up and show the world like
(02:55):
how, what is best class Omni channel retail?
And that leads me to Aesop. So Aesop as a pretty phenomenal
story. It was it's a Melbourne.
It's a Melbourne company originated from Melbourne in a
store in the 1980s and it was acquired by L'Oreal 2 years ago
for 2.5 billion. It's actually the biggest brand
(03:18):
purchase ever. And I guess the reason why I
love that when there's been a lot of doom and gloom about
brands like Aesop isn't cheap. And actually, I don't know if
any of you guys have experiencedthe what happens with Aesop.
If you're in a Westfield, someone called it an an
upholster dead scent market and you can smell the store.
It's you know, more, more brandsshould do that scent marketing
(03:41):
piece. But the the thing about Aesop,
they've got over 400 stores in 27 countries really cushion in a
North America and Asia. Every one of their store is
thoughtfully designed and there's no standard template and
they've really integrated digital and physical very well.
So what I mean by that is we know that the whole the point is
(04:04):
like a lot of the customers thatwent any store, we don't know
who they are ace offer a real leader.
And what they do is that first purchase is often done in store
and what they're really thinkingabout their online as
replenishment. So they're really about that
customer data. How do they know who Laura is
whether I'm online or in the store has been they're really
clear in that. And something that I think would
(04:25):
be great to take away for a lot of brands here is, is having
that digital lens or that skill or understanding the C-Suite,
which I do think is, is often missing because even as I say
this, right, like physical retails in your CAC and then you
look at Aesop, that's got 400 stores, they're actually really
(04:47):
leading through digital. But what they're doing is
they're not expecting the returnon investment or the conversion
rate isn't maybe the metrics hasshifted right.
Digital now becomes the gateway to the whole business and the
the data points to how you measure success has to change.
It's really propping up the whole of the store network as
well. So yeah, I love the fact that
(05:09):
ESOP are really clear. They want, you know, I think
last year they had a 10%, a target of 10% new new customer
activation, 30% win back rate and 12% retention growth.
So yeah, and they've got a very good mindset of like it's like
land and expand. So I think the, what's his name,
(05:29):
Richard Landmark, who's been leading a lot of this and he
calls it minimal lovable products.
So even though they're back, they definitely have to kind of
prove test case and then expand.So that's my to over to.
I don't know if you guys have got anything on that you want to
say or we just. I could jump in there because I
(05:49):
think for me the thing that I'm seeing around the region has
been this real desire for digital and mid market as Laura
talks about to actually tell youknow what, I need to put down
roots. I need to, I need to come in to
set up physical retail. I, I am, I am, I have built
scale in a digital business, butI need to have physical retail.
(06:09):
And that bit to Laura's point too, in these businesses, the
Exco really understand digital, whereas some of the additional
retailers, there's, there's a bit of a gap in knowledge.
And because of that, they reallystruggle with the concept of
what I would call anonymous transactions.
They can't really, you know, with a when someone makes a
transaction across the ASOP website, they know exactly who
(06:31):
they are. And then I had to greet them
either when they arrive on the site, let alone before they
start moving into the transaction.
And so these I mean, and we and I had we had Dion song from love
Benito speak social she was. Very good.
I saw her, yeah. She and she talked a lot about,
you know, because they deeply understand their customer.
Actually, do you want to give ussome context about love, Benito?
(06:52):
Because most people won't. Know yeah, yeah love Benito love
Benito is a purpose driven female fashion brand it's a very
fairly accessible price point it's got retail accessibility
across Southeast Asia, particularly Singapore owned and
led and founded but really across the region actually
really built for Asian women too.
So I know and that and sort of more petite sizing, but for
(07:14):
them, they, they, as Zion talkedabout, she said that, you know,
we can't have people coming intostores and us not know them.
They can't just buy something ontop and walk out and we don't
know who they are. So that, that's something really
important. So they've really worked on
understanding their customer, but also meeting them and, and
addressing them of who they are and, and making sure that
(07:36):
they're not anonymous when they make that purchase and then
building using the digital channels to wrap and so they
understand some of the requirements.
So when they went into physical recoil, I started to learn about
things like, you know, on a, in a, when I'm shopping online,
it's just me. When I'm shopping, you know, in
a, in an outlet in Asia, I'm usually there, it's an outing.
(07:58):
So I'm with my partner. So therefore, I can't, I can't
have my shopping experience cut short because my husband and
boyfriend has had enough and wants to go.
So they're building facilities based on learning online, like
things like partner benches. So you see a whole bunch of men
sitting outside on on the benches outside on their phones,
you know, but then because they have built this beautiful
(08:20):
digital experience and they knowa lot about their customer.
The role of the in store salesperson is different.
And I should have referred another example up there in
terms of a company like Castleri, which is a bit like
Temple and Webster in Australia,or a real digital first, you
know, homewares, furniture type company.
And so their role, their stores,that their store is their
(08:41):
flagship store is beautiful. But the role and they have
really beautiful right room builders on their website,
really good functional tools. So you can really, you know,
build it, you can build your ownexperiences at home.
So therefore, the role of the staff now, because they've done
this pre work means that they'vebecome consultants as opposed to
sales staff. And so they're, they're, it's
(09:03):
evolving the role of the people in store to enhance the
experience because the, the person's no longer anonymous.
They're known to the organisation and they're coming
in, coming in halfway through the journey and really
completing with when they can touch and feel and, and see this
and create some spatial awareness around the, the
products they're looking to buy.So that's quite, that's quite
(09:25):
cool. So that that real leak from
digital with digital heritage into physical, but never, never
relinquishing the fact they cannot know the customer, they
must know the customer, all parts of the journey.
The second one that I'm finding really interesting at the moment
for me and and it really was uncovered this year when I
started going through the advisory process is the role of
marketplaces at a regional levelas opposed to a domestic level.
(09:50):
We in Australia are very familiar with eBay obviously,
and we obviously have had Amazonturn up because Amazon saw
Australia as an opportunity because we didn't have, you
know, the, the, the marketplace platforms 1 entirely dominant
and, and, and Amazon's done an amazing job at becoming #1 and I
think Laura, you were talking about them being the most
searched retail retailer. Yeah, I don't think they've got
(10:12):
as big as shooting wallet as theUS does yet.
Not the highest. I think in one of the search
results I looked at the they're the highest, I guess searched
website in Australia. So they they're definitely not
behind the scenes anymore. It's just, it's just took them a
lot longer to penetrate this market.
They've just went at a lot slower pace.
(10:35):
And I think if it might have been as well you do with COVID,
COVID kind of stopped at them, almost shouldn't have stopped
them in the tracks because it did.
People. We have Kingfisher over here and
English is like home DIY being QS their brand in the UK and
there's lots of other brands across Europe and and there
(10:55):
because I interviewed the guy who's in charge of their
marketplace, their whole growth strategy into new markets is
through the marketplace. But this is where it gets
interesting because this is in, you know, home improvements,
paint screws, you know, all these types of things.
So it's interesting to see whether or not you'll see more
(11:17):
fragmentation in marketplaces into subcategories or people
want this one store that does itall, which is the Amazon.
And, and, and that's sort of building on that was really much
the, the Southeast Asia experience where you look at a
look at a marketplace like Shopee, for example, right.
And Shopee is serving a purpose for good now.
(11:40):
So if you're, you know, if you're a retailer, one say
you're a Vietnamese retailer, OKand you have your website and
you have physical stores, but you only operate domestically in
Vietnam. But Southeast Asia is quite
close together and that it's very easy to find partners to
put DC's together and those sortof things.
Your ability to sell to customers outside the market, it
(12:02):
become really important. And what we're seeing is if you
say you're a Malaysian consumer and you like the pair of shoes
that's on the Vietnamese website, you, you, you, you're
choosing to buy it not via theirwebsite, but via shopping
because you can see it in your language.
You can buy the currency and you've got the shopping
(12:22):
guarantee that the product doesn't turn up.
You get your money back first. If you're buying from a ball
outside your market from a website direct and you don't
know the brand, then you there might be some hesitancy.
And then also too, the payment mechanisms are all different.
Like Malaysia. Malaysia is all digital wallets.
Credit cards aren't really a thing in in Southeast Asia.
(12:42):
So except for maybe Singapore. So there's different payment
mechanism as well. So you you can you can talk
about payments, you can talk about language and you can talk
about tapping into the trust of the platform that overcomes some
of the trepidation of buying from a retailer in another
market that you don't know. So that's been a really
interesting thing for me becauseall of a sudden marketplaces
(13:04):
play a really important role that, you know, that open up new
market to retailers. And so then for if you're that
Vietnamese retailer and discovers all of a sudden you're
selling volumes of shoes in Malaysia, maybe there is a time
to actually say, well, OK, there's an opportunity here to
go and expand into that market because we know, we know we have
appetite for our product in thatmarket.
(13:25):
But yeah, that's really interesting itself.
So that's MI 2. So a bit about yeah, that that,
that launch into physics physical experiences from
digital, digital heritage brandsand mid market businesses.
And those are marketplaces whichare really transcending cross
culture border currency to actually open up opportunities
for retailers and consumers thatotherwise wouldn't have been
(13:46):
there. Do you think that's the future
of it then? Is that where we're heading?
More, More Amazon. I don't, I don't know.
If if you think about it right, like you think about it like I
can't it's called clear. Is it called clear pay?
What's after pay called in the UK, right.
Yeah. So if you think about after pay,
in a way after pay is becoming amarketplace.
(14:09):
Yeah, right. They're doing their sales days.
They're they're doing it. I think it's like the the world
as it's a free for all with marketplaces now and we've kind
of 10 years ago, I mean, I was at eBay what when I first got
here like 15 years ago, it was alittle bit of a dirty word and
people were like worried about it.
We didn't own the customer you did.
(14:29):
I think that has. How will my brand be portrayed?
You know, is context that sort. Of stuff and how do you how do
you play with them? And like that song, I think I've
sang it before for you, Alex, but you know that one you got to
know when you hold them, know when you fold them, know when
you run away, No. Or when you hide.
Yeah, Kenny Rogers. Look at you, Laura.
(14:50):
You've changed. I'm sorry, I wish I could sing
it for you, but I think that's the the coin me marketplaces.
You have to be like that. They're there.
Everyone's been one. I mean, Shopify with a shop pay
as a marketplace, like really, so I, I think the world as
marketplaces, I think we're within a little bit of a
(15:11):
consolidation phase in marketplaces.
I think there was a lot of people, a lot of marketplace
solutions. Everyone was trying to be one.
They realised it's actually harder than you think to become
it. And now what we're starting to
see is who are the marketplaces that we should be with have a
bit of a strategy and focus. It's interesting as well re from
that Asia like you know, from the more like was it Singapore?
(15:34):
Is it or or Thailand cash and delivery.
So, Alex, I don't know if. Oh.
Yes, Philippines. Philippines so.
Cash and delivery even in Thailand, I think it is as well
or it's it's massive. It's probably like 30 to 40%
they want it. So I think the marketplaces is
leaning in like you said, Reef. You'll want to pay with cash.
(15:56):
Do you want to pay with cash? It's it's cash on delivery.
OK, Yes, the Philippines is all catch.
No, I talked to Hewlett Packard and they didn't they've they
withdrew from the Philippines because if you buy a laptop from
HP laptop, you've got two issues.
You turn up at the house that you're delivering laptop and if
the person is not there or they don't have any cash and the
(16:19):
margin on selling a laptop is quite skinny.
So taking it back to the DC because someone doesn't have any
money when you've turned up withthe products is a bit of a
problem, you know? So, you know, in that current
paradigm, HP chose not to operate in that market, you
know. It's too, yeah, it's we were, I
worked with JD Sport locally andlike the Thailand and Singapore
(16:41):
and they hadn't been using cash and delivery, but with their OMS
and ship it, we're using the integrations enabled cash on
delivery and the the, the best and safest way that you can do
cash and delivery. And it's significantly like the,
the, the revenue increased significantly because it's a big
portion of the way people want to shop.
(17:02):
So I think that leads into that whole marketplaces and big
retailers, they have to be trusted.
There's a little bit more scepticism in there, you know,
and and the region about the trust factor is, is probably why
we've seen a lot of the the Asian shoppers up until maybe
recently would like to buy from Australia.
They'd like to buy from Americanbrands.
(17:24):
That's starting to pivot, but security and trust is still a
bit of an issue. But I like I I spoke refasia, we
bet as well an angle on the the marketplace piece retail media,
Alex, more probably in your world.
We it's obviously important in Australia, but we don't have as
many mass big, big retailers. We're kind of we've got like the
(17:45):
coals and willies there's but Amazon is going is the biggest
retail media platform. So if you think about anyone
like want to play in that space,they're going to start to want
to get any Amazon. Does that mean that they want to
also list the products potentially that's a bit of a
draw card to listing on Amazon as well because they're going to
(18:06):
play in the retail media space as well.
But, but I think Amazon is well placed now and, and this is, we
all know this is that, you know,if you're trying to work out
whether they're buying a house or having a child or buying a
new car, you know, the guys likeAmazon have got these signals so
far down South locked down that their predictive modelling can
(18:27):
really tell. So they've got real value in
their data they hold about theircustomers.
And so therefore, you know, thatthat that retail media offering
compared with, you know, with the supermarket versus, you
know, versus a department store is a little bit different
because I just don't have the depth of knowledge that the
people at Amazon have. Yeah, You know, I mean, I
(18:48):
remember working with Trade Me in New Zealand a decade ago and
they were, they had, they had really drilled into this and
really worked out the value of their data because they're, I
mean, Trade Me is more ubiquitous than eBay is in
Australia. It's incredible.
Everyone, every, every, everybody has a Trade Me account
in New Zealand. So that's why it's been so hard
(19:08):
to penetrate. But the fact is that they just,
they, they could see it was likeplaying poker.
They had everyone's tail down. If they knew you would tell for
having a kid or buying a house or, you know, moving across town
or whatever, they, they could tell you what the people were
going to do. But what they were doing on on
the site, it was incredible. So next week I'm moderating at E
(19:29):
Tail London and it's really interesting.
It's sort of touches on what, what, what you've both, both
been talking about, which is sort of the post purchase and
how much. Well, I guess this for me, I'm,
I'm going to be listening because what, what's interesting
is that 4, potentially 5 fellow speakers or panel members are
(19:51):
all female led founders. And so you know from intimate
products, which I I'll be curious to, to.
Do people want to be recognised on this check out or do they
just want to be, you know, just let me get out, You know, I want
to shop my products and and get out.
I don't necessarily need to build a relationship.
(20:11):
I don't know, obviously female hygiene products, probably you
do because there's nothing embarrassing about that.
But maybe it's my teenage brain.There's thinking, you know, for
the other products you don't want, but maybe you do, right.
And so there's a whole element around there.
But then how does that contrast to food right in, in sort of
these sort of cake products? It's super fascinating in this
(20:35):
whole again, how much effort do retailers put or e-commerce
brands in this case, into makingsure that that the post purchase
journey is as effective as the path to purchase?
And, and actually to be fair, I think it's probably we'll find
out that it's, you know, it's difficult, it's complicated
(20:58):
because you know, whether or notyou have the systems in place to
be able to build those relationships with your
customers, there'll be somethingmissing.
So that's that's what I'm going to be focused on next week, I
think Tuesday, so I'll be able to bring it back.
That's like, that's quite a, that's quite an interesting area
as well because everyone knows in retail, the work really
(21:19):
starts when someone presses by, you know, we, we, we in
Australia, we have a, a, a company called Birds Nest that
everybody knows. And Jane Kay, who's the founder,
female founder of that business,her claim to fame was her
handwritten notes they used to send out with every package, you
know, So it was that that post per purchase moment they created
(21:40):
just to say thank you for being a customer.
Yeah, I've had that. But like, you know, these unique
touches that you put in the delivery box when people are
opening them and and trying to keep that sort of special
moment. I, I don't know, it's
interesting because you think about you, you guys were talking
about marketplaces, how you do that at scale, right?
(22:00):
How does that then an industriallevel, how do you create post?
And for me, returns is, is you can't talk about post purchase
without talking about returns. And we've gone through this
cycle here with returns are free, know now you're going to
pay for them or there's going tobe some form of cost to deter
people from returning. Although Amazon is still for
(22:23):
prime members offering free returns.
It's it's just an interesting area.
I think a lot of focus has gone into.
And again, you know, we it wouldn't be complete if we
didn't talk about AI. You got perplexity, who doesn't
want? If you're searching for an item
on Perplexities AI platform, they'll take you to the buy page
directly so you circumvent the whole website that you know the
(22:48):
retailers spent so much money on.
I think it's like Alex, like that whole thing post purchase
should have been the most important thing always, But it's
I think it's becoming more important to look at now because
the funnels completely shattereddry.
People are coming in from different places.
If you're on marketplaces, it's even more do it, but know that
(23:10):
they own the customer. And if you have a customer
directing your site, you've got first party data, use it,
leverage it, harness it as as becoming, you know, it's like
that retention piece, you know, I mean, one e-mail could get
them to buy something again. I think the piece and as we
would know without is it needs to be more considered as well.
(23:32):
So everyone's doing post purchase, everyone's doing
retention marketing and now, yeah, it's like how you do it,
you know, how sophisticated is it becoming as is the game that
but. Also, it can be quite simple,
could be handwritten. I'll give you an example, which
is a very male domino. When I buy, I, I love motorbikes
as everybody knows and I have and I and I buy gear online all
(23:54):
the time. After pay is my friend because I
never, they never see the total cost.
My wife never sees the total cost of a pair of boots or a
helmet or whatever. But my son has a particular he,
I think we, we buy at AMX, whichis one of the big brands
retailers. And we buy there because
there's, there's a sticker pack that basically arrives in every
(24:15):
little package of stuff. So my son, he's 11 is going, you
can't, if you're going to buy that dad, you've got to buy it
from AMX because he gets all thestickers.
So it's just simple things like that, which create momentum for
the next purchase, right? Yeah.
And it's because, you know, we all started, we started full
circle and talked about CAC, right?
(24:35):
An acquisition, right. But we, we it's those little
things that means that the the 2nd and 3rd and 4th purchase,
you don't cost any money for theretailer because that little bit
of magic happens post the first purchase.
Yeah. So, and sometimes we overthink
things too, you know, people arepeople.
They just want things to work, you know?
(24:57):
Yeah. So there's a bit of that OL.
I'll come back and report back on on what what the outcome was.
I'd love Alex to hear if they say anything because I think
what's happened as well is that post purchases became like,
what's the ROI and that what's the conversion rate?
And now we're going back to a wee bit of the art and the
feeling side, which is a little bit hard to measure the
(25:21):
attribution. And yeah, and it's, you know, if
we just have every e-mail out isto try and get them to buy
something, you know, you've got to lose the brand story.
So it would be good to hear how they're thinking about this,
the, the sales, the repeat purchase versus like the brand
recognition and longevity and positioning.
(25:43):
Otherwise. Do we just all, should we just
all become a big marketplace and, and you know.
The market My my, my honest feeling on marketplaces could be
wrong. We'll go the same way as apps.
There was a time where every retailer had to have their own
app and then they realised over time that sunk cost into having
(26:04):
an app isn't giving the returns,right, because you need to keep
updated. It needs to be cross-platform.
There needs to be a reason for someone to go to your specific
app. And so therefore apps went away
and people moved on to, you know, e-commerce sites.
And so Laura, I will report back.
Thank you. Closing thoughts.
Anything with all the technical problems that we had, I've had
(26:27):
fantastic. Well, guys, thank you so much.
See you same time, same place next week.
All right, Bye. Thank you.
Thanks, Laura. Bye.
Hello and welcome back to another exciting edition of Five
Things Friday. I'm joined by my Co host Laura
Reeve. Hello.
Hello, Alex. On another sunny day in Sydney.
It is very sunny in Sydney today.
It's not raining. No glory.
It's it's cool. It's cool and crisp and clear.
(00:21):
Oh, wow, OK, it's, it's in the UK, it's coming to a heat wave.
And in Spain it already is a heat wave was like 30 something
degrees. So it's very, very hot.
Well, listen, without any further ado, let's let's jump
straight in. Laura, why don't we start with
you? OK.
Hi, everyone. So something that has been on my
(00:42):
mind some. My first point is as physical
retail or should I say rent the new CAC, the new customer
acquisition cost. So let's caveat this probably if
you're a very deep data-driven pureplay, you might disagree
with us completely. So maybe more thinking about mid
market direct to consumer brandsgoing up to more enterprise
(01:05):
level brands and retailers is who my audience or who I'm
thinking about is. So I know that of investors are
potentially CFO's like fixed price, fixed costs as enemy, but
I think we're definitely seeing even globally this kind of move
that everyone's kind of retail, physical retail is not dead
Online is not the Holy Grail with came here consensus that
(01:28):
the digital channel is the gateway, it's your storefront,
it's your flagship store. But we're still seeing a
majority of the retailers going into the physical retail.
They want to touch, see, feel, experience the brand.
So yeah, I'm I'm seeing why is that happening?
I think that what's happening isthis X we've spoke about it last
week, the experience piece and retail has to be better.
(01:51):
Stores are now becoming a littlebit of theatre and he I guess
it's like, have you got your open physical retail?
Make sure it counts, pack the right place, do your research
first. Obviously all these things, you
know, you can't just open a store and the wrong area.
It's not going to work. But if you're doing that
investigation, you know it's right.
And a little bit this is driven because of the way people want
(02:13):
to shop. But also it's when I say the new
CAC, it's so expensive now you acquire a new customer on Maya.
That's just the truth. And we're seeing a lot of mid
market brands direct to consumerbrands that are leaning back in
a storefront because it's cheaper, it's cheaper to get a
new customer. And someone described it like
online marketing is like hunting, whereas the physical
(02:35):
stories like fishing. So so that's my number one
point. It kind of dovetails into my
second point of what I want to speak to.
Since we've been doing this, I've been like, where are the
hero Australian brands that really like that David and
Goliath thing? Who's the, the the brands from
this market that could really step up and show the world like
(02:55):
how, what is best class Omni channel retail?
And that leads me to Aesop. So Aesop as a pretty phenomenal
story. It was it's a Melbourne.
It's a Melbourne company originated from Melbourne in a
store in the 1980s and it was acquired by L'Oreal 2 years ago
for 2.5 billion. It's actually the biggest brand
(03:18):
purchase ever. And I guess the reason why I
love that when there's been a lot of doom and gloom about
brands like Aesop isn't cheap. And actually, I don't know if
any of you guys have experiencedthe what happens with Aesop.
If you're in a Westfield, someone called it an an
upholster dead scent market and you can smell the store.
It's you know, more, more brandsshould do that scent marketing
(03:41):
piece. But the the thing about Aesop,
they've got over 400 stores in 27 countries really cushion in a
North America and Asia. Every one of their store is
thoughtfully designed and there's no standard template and
they've really integrated digital and physical very well.
So what I mean by that is we know that the whole the point is
(04:04):
like a lot of the customers thatwent any store, we don't know
who they are ace offer a real leader.
And what they do is that first purchase is often done in store
and what they're really thinkingabout their online as
replenishment. So they're really about that
customer data. How do they know who Laura is
whether I'm online or in the store has been they're really
clear in that. And something that I think would
(04:25):
be great to take away for a lot of brands here is, is having
that digital lens or that skill or understanding the C-Suite,
which I do think is, is often missing because even as I say
this, right, like physical retails in your CAC and then you
look at Aesop, that's got 400 stores, they're actually really
(04:47):
leading through digital. But what they're doing is
they're not expecting the returnon investment or the conversion
rate isn't maybe the metrics hasshifted right.
Digital now becomes the gateway to the whole business and the
the data points to how you measure success has to change.
It's really propping up the whole of the store network as
well. So yeah, I love the fact that
(05:09):
ESOP are really clear. They want, you know, I think
last year they had a 10%, a target of 10% new new customer
activation, 30% win back rate and 12% retention growth.
So yeah, and they've got a very good mindset of like it's like
land and expand. So I think the, what's his name,
(05:29):
Richard Landmark, who's been leading a lot of this and he
calls it minimal lovable products.
So even though they're back, they definitely have to kind of
prove test case and then expand.So that's my to over to.
I don't know if you guys have got anything on that you want to
say or we just. I could jump in there because I
(05:49):
think for me the thing that I'm seeing around the region has
been this real desire for digital and mid market as Laura
talks about to actually tell youknow what, I need to put down
roots. I need to, I need to come in to
set up physical retail. I, I am, I am, I have built
scale in a digital business, butI need to have physical retail.
(06:09):
And that bit to Laura's point too, in these businesses, the
Exco really understand digital, whereas some of the additional
retailers, there's, there's a bit of a gap in knowledge.
And because of that, they reallystruggle with the concept of
what I would call anonymous transactions.
They can't really, you know, with a when someone makes a
transaction across the ASOP website, they know exactly who
(06:31):
they are. And then I had to greet them
either when they arrive on the site, let alone before they
start moving into the transaction.
And so these I mean, and we and I had we had Dion song from love
Benito speak social she was. Very good.
I saw her, yeah. She and she talked a lot about,
you know, because they deeply understand their customer.
Actually, do you want to give ussome context about love, Benito?
(06:52):
Because most people won't. Know yeah, yeah love Benito love
Benito is a purpose driven female fashion brand it's a very
fairly accessible price point it's got retail accessibility
across Southeast Asia, particularly Singapore owned and
led and founded but really across the region actually
really built for Asian women too.
So I know and that and sort of more petite sizing, but for
(07:14):
them, they, they, as Zion talkedabout, she said that, you know,
we can't have people coming intostores and us not know them.
They can't just buy something ontop and walk out and we don't
know who they are. So that, that's something really
important. So they've really worked on
understanding their customer, but also meeting them and, and
addressing them of who they are and, and making sure that
(07:36):
they're not anonymous when they make that purchase and then
building using the digital channels to wrap and so they
understand some of the requirements.
So when they went into physical recoil, I started to learn about
things like, you know, on a, in a, when I'm shopping online,
it's just me. When I'm shopping, you know, in
a, in an outlet in Asia, I'm usually there, it's an outing.
(07:58):
So I'm with my partner. So therefore, I can't, I can't
have my shopping experience cut short because my husband and
boyfriend has had enough and wants to go.
So they're building facilities based on learning online, like
things like partner benches. So you see a whole bunch of men
sitting outside on on the benches outside on their phones,
you know, but then because they have built this beautiful
(08:20):
digital experience and they knowa lot about their customer.
The role of the in store salesperson is different.
And I should have referred another example up there in
terms of a company like Castleri, which is a bit like
Temple and Webster in Australia,or a real digital first, you
know, homewares, furniture type company.
And so their role, their stores,that their store is their
(08:41):
flagship store is beautiful. But the role and they have
really beautiful right room builders on their website,
really good functional tools. So you can really, you know,
build it, you can build your ownexperiences at home.
So therefore, the role of the staff now, because they've done
this pre work means that they'vebecome consultants as opposed to
sales staff. And so they're, they're, it's
(09:03):
evolving the role of the people in store to enhance the
experience because the, the person's no longer anonymous.
They're known to the organisation and they're coming
in, coming in halfway through the journey and really
completing with when they can touch and feel and, and see this
and create some spatial awareness around the, the
products they're looking to buy.So that's quite, that's quite
(09:25):
cool. So that that real leak from
digital with digital heritage into physical, but never, never
relinquishing the fact they cannot know the customer, they
must know the customer, all parts of the journey.
The second one that I'm finding really interesting at the moment
for me and and it really was uncovered this year when I
started going through the advisory process is the role of
marketplaces at a regional levelas opposed to a domestic level.
(09:50):
We in Australia are very familiar with eBay obviously,
and we obviously have had Amazonturn up because Amazon saw
Australia as an opportunity because we didn't have, you
know, the, the, the marketplace platforms 1 entirely dominant
and, and, and Amazon's done an amazing job at becoming #1 and I
think Laura, you were talking about them being the most
searched retail retailer. Yeah, I don't think they've got
(10:12):
as big as shooting wallet as theUS does yet.
Not the highest. I think in one of the search
results I looked at the they're the highest, I guess searched
website in Australia. So they they're definitely not
behind the scenes anymore. It's just, it's just took them a
lot longer to penetrate this market.
They've just went at a lot slower pace.
(10:35):
And I think if it might have been as well you do with COVID,
COVID kind of stopped at them, almost shouldn't have stopped
them in the tracks because it did.
People. We have Kingfisher over here and
English is like home DIY being QS their brand in the UK and
there's lots of other brands across Europe and and there
(10:55):
because I interviewed the guy who's in charge of their
marketplace, their whole growth strategy into new markets is
through the marketplace. But this is where it gets
interesting because this is in, you know, home improvements,
paint screws, you know, all these types of things.
So it's interesting to see whether or not you'll see more
(11:17):
fragmentation in marketplaces into subcategories or people
want this one store that does itall, which is the Amazon.
And, and, and that's sort of building on that was really much
the, the Southeast Asia experience where you look at a
look at a marketplace like Shopee, for example, right.
And Shopee is serving a purpose for good now.
(11:40):
So if you're, you know, if you're a retailer, one say
you're a Vietnamese retailer, OKand you have your website and
you have physical stores, but you only operate domestically in
Vietnam. But Southeast Asia is quite
close together and that it's very easy to find partners to
put DC's together and those sortof things.
Your ability to sell to customers outside the market, it
(12:02):
become really important. And what we're seeing is if you
say you're a Malaysian consumer and you like the pair of shoes
that's on the Vietnamese website, you, you, you, you're
choosing to buy it not via theirwebsite, but via shopping
because you can see it in your language.
You can buy the currency and you've got the shopping
(12:22):
guarantee that the product doesn't turn up.
You get your money back first. If you're buying from a ball
outside your market from a website direct and you don't
know the brand, then you there might be some hesitancy.
And then also too, the payment mechanisms are all different.
Like Malaysia. Malaysia is all digital wallets.
Credit cards aren't really a thing in in Southeast Asia.
(12:42):
So except for maybe Singapore. So there's different payment
mechanism as well. So you you can you can talk
about payments, you can talk about language and you can talk
about tapping into the trust of the platform that overcomes some
of the trepidation of buying from a retailer in another
market that you don't know. So that's been a really
interesting thing for me becauseall of a sudden marketplaces
(13:04):
play a really important role that, you know, that open up new
market to retailers. And so then for if you're that
Vietnamese retailer and discovers all of a sudden you're
selling volumes of shoes in Malaysia, maybe there is a time
to actually say, well, OK, there's an opportunity here to
go and expand into that market because we know, we know we have
appetite for our product in thatmarket.
(13:25):
But yeah, that's really interesting itself.
So that's MI 2. So a bit about yeah, that that,
that launch into physics physical experiences from
digital, digital heritage brandsand mid market businesses.
And those are marketplaces whichare really transcending cross
culture border currency to actually open up opportunities
for retailers and consumers thatotherwise wouldn't have been
(13:46):
there. Do you think that's the future
of it then? Is that where we're heading?
More, More Amazon. I don't, I don't know.
If if you think about it right, like you think about it like I
can't it's called clear. Is it called clear pay?
What's after pay called in the UK, right.
Yeah. So if you think about after pay,
in a way after pay is becoming amarketplace.
(14:09):
Yeah, right. They're doing their sales days.
They're they're doing it. I think it's like the the world
as it's a free for all with marketplaces now and we've kind
of 10 years ago, I mean, I was at eBay what when I first got
here like 15 years ago, it was alittle bit of a dirty word and
people were like worried about it.
We didn't own the customer you did.
(14:29):
I think that has. How will my brand be portrayed?
You know, is context that sort. Of stuff and how do you how do
you play with them? And like that song, I think I've
sang it before for you, Alex, but you know that one you got to
know when you hold them, know when you fold them, know when
you run away, No. Or when you hide.
Yeah, Kenny Rogers. Look at you, Laura.
(14:50):
You've changed. I'm sorry, I wish I could sing
it for you, but I think that's the the coin me marketplaces.
You have to be like that. They're there.
Everyone's been one. I mean, Shopify with a shop pay
as a marketplace, like really, so I, I think the world as
marketplaces, I think we're within a little bit of a
(15:11):
consolidation phase in marketplaces.
I think there was a lot of people, a lot of marketplace
solutions. Everyone was trying to be one.
They realised it's actually harder than you think to become
it. And now what we're starting to
see is who are the marketplaces that we should be with have a
bit of a strategy and focus. It's interesting as well re from
that Asia like you know, from the more like was it Singapore?
(15:34):
Is it or or Thailand cash and delivery.
So, Alex, I don't know if. Oh.
Yes, Philippines. Philippines so.
Cash and delivery even in Thailand, I think it is as well
or it's it's massive. It's probably like 30 to 40%
they want it. So I think the marketplaces is
leaning in like you said, Reef. You'll want to pay with cash.
(15:56):
Do you want to pay with cash? It's it's cash on delivery.
OK, Yes, the Philippines is all catch.
No, I talked to Hewlett Packard and they didn't they've they
withdrew from the Philippines because if you buy a laptop from
HP laptop, you've got two issues.
You turn up at the house that you're delivering laptop and if
the person is not there or they don't have any cash and the
(16:19):
margin on selling a laptop is quite skinny.
So taking it back to the DC because someone doesn't have any
money when you've turned up withthe products is a bit of a
problem, you know? So, you know, in that current
paradigm, HP chose not to operate in that market, you
know. It's too, yeah, it's we were, I
worked with JD Sport locally andlike the Thailand and Singapore
(16:41):
and they hadn't been using cash and delivery, but with their OMS
and ship it, we're using the integrations enabled cash on
delivery and the the, the best and safest way that you can do
cash and delivery. And it's significantly like the,
the, the revenue increased significantly because it's a big
portion of the way people want to shop.
(17:02):
So I think that leads into that whole marketplaces and big
retailers, they have to be trusted.
There's a little bit more scepticism in there, you know,
and and the region about the trust factor is, is probably why
we've seen a lot of the the Asian shoppers up until maybe
recently would like to buy from Australia.
They'd like to buy from Americanbrands.
(17:24):
That's starting to pivot, but security and trust is still a
bit of an issue. But I like I I spoke refasia, we
bet as well an angle on the the marketplace piece retail media,
Alex, more probably in your world.
We it's obviously important in Australia, but we don't have as
many mass big, big retailers. We're kind of we've got like the
(17:45):
coals and willies there's but Amazon is going is the biggest
retail media platform. So if you think about anyone
like want to play in that space,they're going to start to want
to get any Amazon. Does that mean that they want to
also list the products potentially that's a bit of a
draw card to listing on Amazon as well because they're going to
(18:06):
play in the retail media space as well.
But, but I think Amazon is well placed now and, and this is, we
all know this is that, you know,if you're trying to work out
whether they're buying a house or having a child or buying a
new car, you know, the guys likeAmazon have got these signals so
far down South locked down that their predictive modelling can
(18:27):
really tell. So they've got real value in
their data they hold about theircustomers.
And so therefore, you know, thatthat that retail media offering
compared with, you know, with the supermarket versus, you
know, versus a department store is a little bit different
because I just don't have the depth of knowledge that the
people at Amazon have. Yeah, You know, I mean, I
(18:48):
remember working with Trade Me in New Zealand a decade ago and
they were, they had, they had really drilled into this and
really worked out the value of their data because they're, I
mean, Trade Me is more ubiquitous than eBay is in
Australia. It's incredible.
Everyone, every, every, everybody has a Trade Me account
in New Zealand. So that's why it's been so hard
(19:08):
to penetrate. But the fact is that they just,
they, they could see it was likeplaying poker.
They had everyone's tail down. If they knew you would tell for
having a kid or buying a house or, you know, moving across town
or whatever, they, they could tell you what the people were
going to do. But what they were doing on on
the site, it was incredible. So next week I'm moderating at E
(19:29):
Tail London and it's really interesting.
It's sort of touches on what, what, what you've both, both
been talking about, which is sort of the post purchase and
how much. Well, I guess this for me, I'm,
I'm going to be listening because what, what's interesting
is that 4, potentially 5 fellow speakers or panel members are
(19:51):
all female led founders. And so you know from intimate
products, which I I'll be curious to, to.
Do people want to be recognised on this check out or do they
just want to be, you know, just let me get out, You know, I want
to shop my products and and get out.
I don't necessarily need to build a relationship.
(20:11):
I don't know, obviously female hygiene products, probably you
do because there's nothing embarrassing about that.
But maybe it's my teenage brain.There's thinking, you know, for
the other products you don't want, but maybe you do, right.
And so there's a whole element around there.
But then how does that contrast to food right in, in sort of
these sort of cake products? It's super fascinating in this
(20:35):
whole again, how much effort do retailers put or e-commerce
brands in this case, into makingsure that that the post purchase
journey is as effective as the path to purchase?
And, and actually to be fair, I think it's probably we'll find
out that it's, you know, it's difficult, it's complicated
(20:58):
because you know, whether or notyou have the systems in place to
be able to build those relationships with your
customers, there'll be somethingmissing.
So that's that's what I'm going to be focused on next week, I
think Tuesday, so I'll be able to bring it back.
That's like, that's quite a, that's quite an interesting area
as well because everyone knows in retail, the work really
(21:19):
starts when someone presses by, you know, we, we, we in
Australia, we have a, a, a company called Birds Nest that
everybody knows. And Jane Kay, who's the founder,
female founder of that business,her claim to fame was her
handwritten notes they used to send out with every package, you
know, So it was that that post per purchase moment they created
(21:40):
just to say thank you for being a customer.
Yeah, I've had that. But like, you know, these unique
touches that you put in the delivery box when people are
opening them and and trying to keep that sort of special
moment. I, I don't know, it's
interesting because you think about you, you guys were talking
about marketplaces, how you do that at scale, right?
(22:00):
How does that then an industriallevel, how do you create post?
And for me, returns is, is you can't talk about post purchase
without talking about returns. And we've gone through this
cycle here with returns are free, know now you're going to
pay for them or there's going tobe some form of cost to deter
people from returning. Although Amazon is still for
(22:23):
prime members offering free returns.
It's it's just an interesting area.
I think a lot of focus has gone into.
And again, you know, we it wouldn't be complete if we
didn't talk about AI. You got perplexity, who doesn't
want? If you're searching for an item
on Perplexities AI platform, they'll take you to the buy page
directly so you circumvent the whole website that you know the
(22:48):
retailers spent so much money on.
I think it's like Alex, like that whole thing post purchase
should have been the most important thing always, But it's
I think it's becoming more important to look at now because
the funnels completely shattereddry.
People are coming in from different places.
If you're on marketplaces, it's even more do it, but know that
(23:10):
they own the customer. And if you have a customer
directing your site, you've got first party data, use it,
leverage it, harness it as as becoming, you know, it's like
that retention piece, you know, I mean, one e-mail could get
them to buy something again. I think the piece and as we
would know without is it needs to be more considered as well.
(23:32):
So everyone's doing post purchase, everyone's doing
retention marketing and now, yeah, it's like how you do it,
you know, how sophisticated is it becoming as is the game that
but. Also, it can be quite simple,
could be handwritten. I'll give you an example, which
is a very male domino. When I buy, I, I love motorbikes
as everybody knows and I have and I and I buy gear online all
(23:54):
the time. After pay is my friend because I
never, they never see the total cost.
My wife never sees the total cost of a pair of boots or a
helmet or whatever. But my son has a particular he,
I think we, we buy at AMX, whichis one of the big brands
retailers. And we buy there because
there's, there's a sticker pack that basically arrives in every
(24:15):
little package of stuff. So my son, he's 11 is going, you
can't, if you're going to buy that dad, you've got to buy it
from AMX because he gets all thestickers.
So it's just simple things like that, which create momentum for
the next purchase, right? Yeah.
And it's because, you know, we all started, we started full
circle and talked about CAC, right?
(24:35):
An acquisition, right. But we, we it's those little
things that means that the the 2nd and 3rd and 4th purchase,
you don't cost any money for theretailer because that little bit
of magic happens post the first purchase.
Yeah. So, and sometimes we overthink
things too, you know, people arepeople.
They just want things to work, you know?
(24:57):
Yeah. So there's a bit of that OL.
I'll come back and report back on on what what the outcome was.
I'd love Alex to hear if they say anything because I think
what's happened as well is that post purchases became like,
what's the ROI and that what's the conversion rate?
And now we're going back to a wee bit of the art and the
feeling side, which is a little bit hard to measure the
(25:21):
attribution. And yeah, and it's, you know, if
we just have every e-mail out isto try and get them to buy
something, you know, you've got to lose the brand story.
So it would be good to hear how they're thinking about this,
the, the sales, the repeat purchase versus like the brand
recognition and longevity and positioning.
(25:43):
Otherwise. Do we just all, should we just
all become a big marketplace and, and you know.
The market My my, my honest feeling on marketplaces could be
wrong. We'll go the same way as apps.
There was a time where every retailer had to have their own
app and then they realised over time that sunk cost into having
(26:04):
an app isn't giving the returns,right, because you need to keep
updated. It needs to be cross-platform.
There needs to be a reason for someone to go to your specific
app. And so therefore apps went away
and people moved on to, you know, e-commerce sites.
And so Laura, I will report back.
Thank you. Closing thoughts.
Anything with all the technical problems that we had, I've had
(26:27):
fantastic. Well, guys, thank you so much.
See you same time, same place next week.
All right, Bye. Thank you.
Thanks, Laura. Bye.
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