April 12, 2024 • 28 mins
Unlock the mysteries of email marketing with Brian Cardona of AtData and RetailWire BrainTrust host Mark Price, as we dissect the role of email addresses in the digital marketing landscape. Our discussion peels back the layers of how these digital identifiers are reshaping customer engagement strategies, especially with the shift in traditional metric visibility due to Apple's Mail Privacy Protection. If you've ever wondered about the resilience of your email list in the face of changing privacy laws and the decline of third-party cookies, this conversation will illuminate the path toward a privacy-compliant marketing future.
Prepare to navigate the intricacies of inbox placement and sender reputation with intelligence from the forefront of email validation services. The introduction of engagement scores, pioneered by Safe2Send, is transforming how retailers refine their communication channels. This episode is a guiding light for marketers aiming to maintain relevance and authenticity in their customer outreach, as we discuss the art of balancing the evolving digital ecosystem with innovative targeting and communication strategies.
Brian Cardona offers his expert insights on the impact of GDPR and CPRA, and how first-party data reigns supreme in the age of transparency. So if you're ready to elevate your understanding of customers and lead the way in privacy-conscious marketing, make sure to tune in and join our community of retail enthusiasts.
RetailWire is the retail industry's premier source for news, analysis, and discussion. With a focus on the latest trends, technology, and consumer behavior, RetailWire provides a platform for industry experts and thought leaders to share their insights and perspectives. Whether you're a retailer, supplier, or service provider, RetailWire is your go-to destination for staying informed and ahead of the curve.
Be sure to leave us a comment and let us know what you think. You might even hear your comment read on the next episode!
To learn more, or to join our Daily Discussions, visit RetailWire.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hello everybody and welcome to Retail Wired Podcast,
your go-to source for allthings retail.
Whether you're a seasonedindustry veteran or just dipping
your toes into the world ofretail, this podcast is your
one-stop shop for the latesttrends, insights and discussions
that are shaping the future ofretail.
(00:34):
Today I'm your host, mark Price, and today I'm joined by Brian
Cardona, who's the president ofActData.
Brian Cardona, who's thepresident of AtData.
Now, brian has been in thedirect marketing business for 20
plus years and today helpsFortune 1000 companies apply
(00:55):
technology to maximize revenue,minimize costs and improve the
depth and accuracy of theirmarketing databases, which I
think everybody in everymarketing department in America
would really want to be able todo.
Now, brian is a longtime veteranof what was, at the time, tower
(01:16):
Data, where he rose from the VPof business development to
becoming the president of thecompany, which he led for 10
years before its merger withFresh Address to become AtData.
So, brian, thank you for comingon this podcast today and
really interested to hear alittle bit about what you are
(01:38):
doing right now and where yousee things are going with data
quality, dealing with issuesaround the deprecation of
third-party cookies and, ofcourse, there is no podcast.
That could possibly be completethese days without talking
about AI, but at the beginningwould you just tell us a little
(02:00):
bit about yourself and kind ofas you've seen over the last
what looks like 19 years ofbeing in the company.
In the last 10 years of leadingit, how have things changed and
how did you get to where youare today?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Awesome.
Yeah, thanks, mark.
It's great to be here today.
I appreciate you having meRight.
So I think you touched on thetwo main things of Tower Data
and Fresh Address.
Coming together is at data andwe are the email experts.
So, combined, both companiesare over 20 years old and we
were both born with the adventof email marketing, right?
(02:36):
So email is our DNA and overthe past couple of decades we've
seen a lot change.
Email is when we think aboutemail marketing right, a lot
change.
Email is when we think aboutemail marketing right.
In 20 years ago, it was aboutlist size and contacting
customers with a newsletter ormaybe sending out a coupon, and
now the email address is so muchmore so.
Uh, at data is provides emailaddress intelligence to help our
(03:00):
customers.
Um, you do all things with thatemail address, and more than
just email marketing.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Brian, would you say that the email address is so
much more than just simply whatgoes into an email that is sent
out to people?
Can you say a little bit moreabout all the things that now
are enabled with that emailaddress?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, for sure, so when we think about email
address intelligence, we'rethinking about first of all that
email is a persistent digitalidentifier, right?
So as a person moves from onecity to another, or from one
home to another, or an apartmentto a home, the email address is
coming along with them.
(03:43):
That's a lot different than along time ago, when I'll date
myself a little bit, but weresponded to AOL or Net Zero or
Juno and we were chasing that.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I remember I'm dating myself.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I remember those Right right, the $0 internet and
the ISP.
Well, now, we know Gmail andYahoo are quite sticky right and
we have visibility to this data, and we know people are
changing email addresses lessfrequently and also people have
more than one email addressright, and so you know how do we
consider that as businesses oras retailers.
(04:15):
But when we're thinking aboutemail address intelligence, it's
primarily four things, right?
First, we're thinking about theemail address with respect to
deliverability.
So that's the traditional emailvalidation.
In our world we call the safeto send service.
Is this email deliverable whenI send an email to it, is it
(04:35):
going to be received by Google,yahoo, hotmail and so on?
Also, is the email risky withrespect to deliverability?
So, is it a spam trap?
So that's our first piece,right?
We're going to think is thisemail deliverable?
Is it?
Is it risky?
The second is is it risky as itrelates to fraud?
So, uh, have we seen fraudulentactivity tied to this email
(04:58):
address?
Have we never seen it before?
And what does that mean?
Um, the third is is it a goodemail, right?
So I think many of us againhaving multiple email addresses,
some we are guarded andprotected with.
Maybe some we use for commerce,others we use for our fantasy
football team and nothing else.
Right, we never check thatinbox.
(05:19):
So how do we decide?
Is this a good email address inthe context of quality and
responsiveness?
And then, lastly, is identity,as you mentioned earlier, so
understanding.
Who does this email belong toand what else do we know about
that household?
Do they have additional membersof the household?
Are there additional emailaddresses that you can associate
(05:40):
with that person?
Speaker 1 (05:43):
that you can associate with that person.
So does that mean that you canactually do householding and get
to additional people who mightbe living in that location, who
have two or three or four emailaddresses also?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
That's right.
So our alternate email appendservice is available, where an
email address can be presentedto us and we can tell you about.
Here are the other emails thatwe have associated with that
person and either at theindividual level or the
household level, and our clientsare using that service.
Um, you know, not so much tosay, hey, let's grow our email
(06:15):
list and and send more mail.
It's around attribution.
It's around, uh, clean rooms,uh, and again, broadening that
reach of who that customer is.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Makes a lot of sense.
Now, for a while, it seems likepeople were trading out their
email addresses at a faster andfaster rate, and you mentioned
that that seems to be slowingdown.
Now Can you say a little bitmore about that slowdown that
you're seeing and why you thinkthat's occurring?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yeah, so I think we used to see as high as 2% 3% of
an email list go invalid on amonthly basis and that just
natural churn on a list.
And now we're seeing about halfof that right, so we're under
2% is what we're going to see,where that email address is
changing.
And again, I think it's atribute to two things.
(07:11):
One, you know, and I think thespam issue has been to some
degree, or I guess it's managedwell by Gmail and Yahoo, right,
the algorithms they have, thespam filters they have, the new
rules they have aroundauthentication are going to take
place and I think, on the whole, the inbox is pretty well
controlled.
So there isn't this need toswitch around and run away from
(07:35):
a certain email address.
But the other, and I think mostimportant in this context, is
that email address is how you'reconnecting with a retailer or
an e-commerce business and usingthat as your login Right.
So.
So changing that email addressis can be quite painful and,
when it comes to loyaltyprograms, can be quite
(07:57):
disruptive.
So for that reason, for thosereasons, we think, yeah, the
email address is becoming muchmore sticky as we move here into
the future of the digitalecosystem.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Now, you mentioned spam as well as one of the real
benefits of using your service.
Said it the ability to churnout email addresses and churn
(08:32):
out bad content in order toachieve different aims, either
political aims or retail aims, arange of different kinds of
things.
It seems like there's a chancethat that could really explode
over the next couple of years.
You have the ability to headthat off at the pass, don't you?
How do you do that?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
When we think about creating new email addresses and
the harm that can be done bythat by bad actors.
Certainly we know that Gmail hasthat functionality to use the
plus sign to add trailingcharacters to an email address
and create an infinite number ofemail addresses.
(09:10):
Also, the period or the dot canbe anywhere within an email
address.
So we know that the bad actorscan manipulate that
functionality and try to commitfraud.
Our technology allows us to whatwe call tumble an email address
where we can determine if youtake all of those Gmail
(09:33):
addresses so Brian Cardona, atGmail, I can say Brian Cardona
Press, retail Wire, brianCardona Plus, retailer 1,
retailer 2, retailer 3, and downthe line and tumble that into a
single view for that email andthat allows us to inform our
clients with our fraud riskscore to say, hey, this is one
email address, it all belongs tothis person.
(09:54):
We see the IP addresses in someforeign country that maybe has
less laws or something like this, and so you should apply higher
scrutiny to this registration.
So that's just one example, Ithink.
When we think about spam andemail address intelligence and
at data services, you know, Ithink it's more around
(10:19):
navigating that inbox placementand so entirely separate from
fraud risk.
We think about the quality ofthose email addresses and are
they going to be emails thatengage with people, that engage
with the emails that you send,and if they do, that improves
your sender reputation andtherefore your inbox placement.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Now I say that you've created some sort of engagement
score for email addresses.
Can you say a little bit abouthow you do that and then how you
see retailers using thatinformation to change, maybe,
(11:01):
who they're targeting and, howoften, what kinds of
communications they're doing?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
We have an engagement score that's included as a
feature of our email validationservice, safe2send, and that's
telling us exactly whether thatemail address is across our
broader network of signals andemail.
That's an opener and a clicker.
And again, that's important aswe tie back to the inbox
(11:27):
placement because many times aretailer maybe they're having
inbox placement issues right.
So Gmail or Yahoo, proofpoint,et cetera, have said I don't
like the looks of this mail, orlet me put them in the junk mail
folder, or let me block theiremail and and some of the the
(11:47):
rules they have in place aroundthat are related to engagement.
So you send emails Google100,000 emails and a low
percentage open, you know.
And so a lot of times theadvice there which is good
advice is to say maybe peel offand only mail to your active
email addresses, right?
So let's only engage withemails that have opened, email
(12:08):
addresses that have opened toour campaigns in the last year,
and leave the rest out.
But then you know, mr CEO comesin and says we need more
revenue in this quarter.
You need to send more emails,right?
And now what do you do?
And as the marketer, you'rethinking well, I can take my
(12:28):
inbox placement and mail to mywhole list.
Or?
This is where our service comesin and what it was designed for.
It helps our clients take alook at that inactive data that
they have and determine what'sactive elsewhere across the
broader ad data ecosystem, andthat will mitigate that risk.
So oftentimes it has a US biasthe data signals but oftentimes
(12:50):
for US retailers we'll be ableto say half of the data that you
have as inactive we're seeingactive elsewhere.
So we would suggest, hey, let'sstart marketing with that data
first, reengaging with that datafirst to mitigate the risk of
tanking that inbox placement andthat sender reputation.
So we're pretty excited aboutthat.
It's quite effective serviceagain just to reengage with our
(13:14):
onboard data that perhaps hasbeen inactive with you.
Again just to to to umre-engage with or onboard data
that perhaps has been inactivewith you, whether it's relates
to a loyalty program or, um, youknow other reasons.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
So, brian, uh, obviously open rates these days
are extremely difficult thing tomeasure, um, because uh, more
and more browsers are uh dealingwith that in a way that doesn't
allow marketers to see theresults.
When you look at it, maybe withconversion rates, when you look
at, sort of, an average emailaddress versus one that you
(13:48):
identified as high engagement,what kind of differences can
marketers expect to see?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Well, it depends answer on that, unfortunately,
but I think we would suggestthat marketers take a look at
what their average open ratesare and they will see we're on
par with that for the engageddata that we have.
And your point about the maskingof opens right the masking of
opens right Apple's mail privacyprotection is certainly been
(14:18):
influential, especially for ourclients that have a lot of app
signups.
We're seeing, in some cases,one of our large QSR clients,
their app we're seeing as muchas 10% invalid, so super
important for them to have thatvalidation service layered in
there.
But also around 25 to 30percent mail privacy protection
(14:42):
or hide my email email addressesfor them, and so we can help
them identify them and treatthem accordingly.
So just a lot going on there.
I think when it comes toengagement, it's so often around
and opens and clicks right.
It's so often around thedifferent retail offering that
(15:05):
you have and is it cyclical andso on, and so forth Google
getting closer and closer to thedeprecation of third-party
cookies, which we had spokenabout a little earlier.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
it seems like your capability is going to get more
and more important over time.
Can you talk a little bit aboutkind of how you see that
ecosystem happening right nowand how do you see it evolving
over the next year?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yeah for sure.
So, right, it seems like it'sfinally here.
The third party cookiedeprecation we know I think
Google said 1% was a January andthat they're looking for
alternative methods to kind ofhone in on identity.
And we believe email address isthe place to be when it comes
(16:09):
to identity for all the reasonsI mentioned earlier.
And again, when we think aboutemail address intelligence, it's
time to think about it outsideof the context of, or that
vertical market or, I should say, siloed email marketing
department, and instead look atit as a business.
(16:33):
What is our first party datastrategy and what are the key
pieces of our first party data?
And there, right, when we thinkabout identity, again, email
address, obviously name, postalmobile phone number, maybe
device ID but device IDs aregoing away too, potentially.
So really, we know emailaddresses persistent and we
think, okay, well, what aboutthe privacy compliance and
sensitivities to privacy inthere, Right?
I think that what's interestingthere is the advent of data
(16:56):
clean rooms.
So do data clean rooms allow usto meet and be sensitive to
privacy issues with hashed emailaddresses and again combine
those disparate databases withthe email addresses that can be
components?
So obviously it's quite a bitof change and I think we've
(17:18):
known it's coming, and now,finally, you know, we think it's
going to be here, and so we'reseeing across our client base
again, a further emphasis in astrategic approach to identity
and tying that to the emailaddress identity and tying that
to the email address.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Hey, ted, great.
One question I do have to askyou is every retailer has some
customers in Europe, and if youhave some customers in Europe,
you are subject to GDPR.
And so I was wondering, andyou're subject to it not just
for the customers in Europe.
You have to have the capabilityinside your database anyway, in
(18:01):
addition to CCPA and theMassachusetts laws and the laws
that are cascading across theUnited States.
So you talked about clean rooms.
Would you talk a little more ifa retailer were concerned?
Well, all retailers areconcerned, but they wanted to
ask you about that what wouldyou say?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
With respect to compliance around compliance
compliance with GDPR, I meanright.
So I think the main thing isisolating that data as best you
can and then making sure youhave the appropriate privacy
policy in terms and conditionsand disclosures necessary by
GDPR.
We know CPRA in California isescalating things and from our
(18:44):
side, right, it's just aboutbeing transparent with your
customers as they're providingthat information.
Here's how we're going to useyour data and honoring that
commitment to the clients oryour customers with that data.
You know, as it relates to themarketing side, obviously,
(19:07):
opt-outs and explicit consent.
Gdpr, I think, is distinct inthat the explicit consent is a
little more strict than in theUnited States and so, again,
just making sure that yourwebsite, or when you're
collecting that data, you'readhering to those laws.
I think, from our side, europefeels like it's pretty much
(20:02):
settled.
With respect to how that'sgoing to play out in the States,
I can tell you it's a lot ofstress for the industry with all
the state laws that arecontinuing.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I know the ANA and others are lobbying for federal
legislation so that we asbusinesses can be consistent in
the promises we're making to ourcustomers and then consistently
apply them and not have a forsure, but something we hope is
going to be resolved here in thenext, let's say, year or two,
(20:30):
which is oh, I have a lot ofphysical addresses.
I don't have the emails.
You have the emails, I'll juststart emailing them, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
So that's something that, yeah, I mean, I think
that's I need to say, to beharsh and say, well, you know,
that's, that's often um, the waythe thinking was maybe 10 or 15
years ago.
Today, right, we need to be alot more sensitive, um and right
, um.
First, when it comes tothird-party data, um, our third,
(21:02):
our data is U?
S only.
So you know, um, we haven't,and I know, you know the
European environment isdifferent, so our data is US
only.
But when we're thinking aboutadding third-party data, our
approach is always eyes open,right, why are you adding this
data and what are you going touse it for?
Right, and the hurdles withrespect to can't spam are quite
(21:27):
low.
With respect to can spam arequite low.
I think we'd all admit that lawis maybe over 15 years old
itself, so compliance thereisn't too difficult.
But it's more important tothink about, well, what is the
brand experience?
What are our customersexpecting from us?
And there it makes sense to usethird-party data, but use it in
(21:50):
a way that's on brand, I'll say.
And so, for example, you maynot choose to just start mailing
to the data, but you may use itjust within your identity graph
, or you may use it forattribution, or you may use it
for display, advertising andother means.
So it's definitely, you know,one of those things that it
(22:13):
depends on the business and howthey're set up and what their
brand promise is, but somethingto be thoughtful about for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Excellent.
One last question for you Canyou give us a view of the future
, as you're working on newinitiatives and new capabilities
?
Where do you see things goingfor you and maybe for the
industry over the next becausethings are moving so fast, let's
say over the next?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
two years?
Yeah, sure, I mean, of course,as you mentioned earlier, the AI
, ML, and what does that meanfor us, right?
So from our side, we'reinvesting heavily into our data
science team and we're excitedabout that.
There's some bright youngpeople that are able to do some
great things with all the datathat the world is collecting,
and so that's super exciting howquickly they can spin up and
(23:01):
make decisions and iterate onthose decisions.
It's time to make some changes,so that's something that we're
super excited about.
In the context of, if we're justthinking, a couple of years, I
(23:23):
think we continue to see moreinvestment in that first party
data and how important it isfirst party data and how
important it is right.
We think about the walledgardens and you know the
platforms that say bring yourdata to us and we'll take care
of everything in this black box.
That's often a good approach tothings to get to a solution
quickly, but we think thesmarter longer term strategy is
(23:46):
to take control of your firstparty data and not be so
dependent on the walled gardens.
So that's one, and then justone more, if you allow me to go
a bit past two years, we againthink this persistence of the
email addresses is going tocontinue, right?
So five years from now, 10years from now, will it still be
(24:06):
the email address I mean?
I think you can get.
It's interesting to think aboutmaybe some biotech that might
change things, but that'sprobably a bit further away.
So for now, we see that emailaddress continuing to be
persistent and what we'rethinking about is what other
decisions can we empower withthat email address, right?
So it's again not just a way tosend Mark more emails to get
(24:28):
him to come to the store.
It's also thinking about youknow who is Mark and you know
what are the things that he'sinterested in and what does the
household look like and what arehis behaviors and so on.
And further, even to the extentthat, is it involved in
empowering credit decisions?
So, for example, right, yourname and postal has changed a
(24:51):
lot, but your email ispersistent.
Now we can know more about Markover the last 10 years, where
maybe the home situation wasn'tas stable, right, there's a lot
of Americans that are in thatsituation, that maybe don't have
access to things.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
So we see more and more availability of signals
tied to that email address andwe're excited about the
opportunity it presents, um youknow, to to empower those
decisions well, that led me toone other question, which is
there's a lot of concern thesedays about, um, if you will, the
people who are inadequatelyserved by internet access and by
(25:31):
marketing in general, wherethere may be a situation of
economic inequity that isdriving them to have their
information not as available.
Do you guys have a specificstrategy to address that, or do
you think just overall specificstrategy to address that, or?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
do you think just overall, the way that you reach
out, deals with that.
Yeah, we're thinking about thatnow, right?
So I think there's signals thatwe're able to aggregate and the
privacy compliant way to helpus help those that are kind of
outside of the economy to somedegree for one reason or another
.
You know an open banking, athin credit history Like what
(26:17):
can we learn about this personwith that persistent email
address?
And we're excited again aboutthat opportunity to bring equity
to a broader set of Americans.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
That's great.
Well, thank you, brian.
This has been a wonderful timelearning about you and learning
about AtData, both where you areright now and where you're
going.
I really think the mostexciting piece of all is, as you
mentioned, the email address,not just as a vehicle to send
emails, but to use that as acentral identifier, combined
(26:56):
with other information, to get abetter 360-degree view of
customers, but not justcustomers, but people who have
touched your organization buthave not necessarily, you know,
made a transaction, if you willwarm prospects that are out
there, that have left some pieceof a footprint that allows you
(27:18):
to get a better understanding ofwhere they may be touching the
organization through multipleplaces.
Yeah, yeah, well said, butthank you very much.
Thank you everyone for takingthe time to listen to today's
episode.
If you found today's discussionvaluable, please don't forget
to hit the subscribe button onyour favorite podcast platform
(27:42):
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Forward slash subscribe and wewill see you the next time.
Thank you.
Hello everybody and welcome to Retail Wired Podcast,
your go-to source for allthings retail.
Whether you're a seasonedindustry veteran or just dipping
your toes into the world ofretail, this podcast is your
one-stop shop for the latesttrends, insights and discussions
that are shaping the future ofretail.
(00:34):
Today I'm your host, mark Price, and today I'm joined by Brian
Cardona, who's the president ofActData.
Brian Cardona, who's thepresident of AtData.
Now, brian has been in thedirect marketing business for 20
plus years and today helpsFortune 1000 companies apply
(00:55):
technology to maximize revenue,minimize costs and improve the
depth and accuracy of theirmarketing databases, which I
think everybody in everymarketing department in America
would really want to be able todo.
Now, brian is a longtime veteranof what was, at the time, tower
(01:16):
Data, where he rose from the VPof business development to
becoming the president of thecompany, which he led for 10
years before its merger withFresh Address to become AtData.
So, brian, thank you for comingon this podcast today and
really interested to hear alittle bit about what you are
(01:38):
doing right now and where yousee things are going with data
quality, dealing with issuesaround the deprecation of
third-party cookies and, ofcourse, there is no podcast.
That could possibly be completethese days without talking
about AI, but at the beginningwould you just tell us a little
(02:00):
bit about yourself and kind ofas you've seen over the last
what looks like 19 years ofbeing in the company.
In the last 10 years of leadingit, how have things changed and
how did you get to where youare today?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Awesome.
Yeah, thanks, mark.
It's great to be here today.
I appreciate you having meRight.
So I think you touched on thetwo main things of Tower Data
and Fresh Address.
Coming together is at data andwe are the email experts.
So, combined, both companiesare over 20 years old and we
were both born with the adventof email marketing, right?
(02:36):
So email is our DNA and overthe past couple of decades we've
seen a lot change.
Email is when we think aboutemail marketing right, a lot
change.
Email is when we think aboutemail marketing right.
In 20 years ago, it was aboutlist size and contacting
customers with a newsletter ormaybe sending out a coupon, and
now the email address is so muchmore so.
Uh, at data is provides emailaddress intelligence to help our
(03:00):
customers.
Um, you do all things with thatemail address, and more than
just email marketing.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Brian, would you say that the email address is so
much more than just simply whatgoes into an email that is sent
out to people?
Can you say a little bit moreabout all the things that now
are enabled with that emailaddress?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, for sure, so when we think about email
address intelligence, we'rethinking about first of all that
email is a persistent digitalidentifier, right?
So as a person moves from onecity to another, or from one
home to another, or an apartmentto a home, the email address is
coming along with them.
(03:43):
That's a lot different than along time ago, when I'll date
myself a little bit, but weresponded to AOL or Net Zero or
Juno and we were chasing that.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I remember I'm dating myself.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I remember those Right right, the $0 internet and
the ISP.
Well, now, we know Gmail andYahoo are quite sticky right and
we have visibility to this data, and we know people are
changing email addresses lessfrequently and also people have
more than one email addressright, and so you know how do we
consider that as businesses oras retailers.
(04:15):
But when we're thinking aboutemail address intelligence, it's
primarily four things, right?
First, we're thinking about theemail address with respect to
deliverability.
So that's the traditional emailvalidation.
In our world we call the safeto send service.
Is this email deliverable whenI send an email to it, is it
(04:35):
going to be received by Google,yahoo, hotmail and so on?
Also, is the email risky withrespect to deliverability?
So, is it a spam trap?
So that's our first piece,right?
We're going to think is thisemail deliverable?
Is it?
Is it risky?
The second is is it risky as itrelates to fraud?
So, uh, have we seen fraudulentactivity tied to this email
(04:58):
address?
Have we never seen it before?
And what does that mean?
Um, the third is is it a goodemail, right?
So I think many of us againhaving multiple email addresses,
some we are guarded andprotected with.
Maybe some we use for commerce,others we use for our fantasy
football team and nothing else.
Right, we never check thatinbox.
(05:19):
So how do we decide?
Is this a good email address inthe context of quality and
responsiveness?
And then, lastly, is identity,as you mentioned earlier, so
understanding.
Who does this email belong toand what else do we know about
that household?
Do they have additional membersof the household?
Are there additional emailaddresses that you can associate
(05:40):
with that person?
Speaker 1 (05:43):
that you can associate with that person.
So does that mean that you canactually do householding and get
to additional people who mightbe living in that location, who
have two or three or four emailaddresses also?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
That's right.
So our alternate email appendservice is available, where an
email address can be presentedto us and we can tell you about.
Here are the other emails thatwe have associated with that
person and either at theindividual level or the
household level, and our clientsare using that service.
Um, you know, not so much tosay, hey, let's grow our email
(06:15):
list and and send more mail.
It's around attribution.
It's around, uh, clean rooms,uh, and again, broadening that
reach of who that customer is.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Makes a lot of sense.
Now, for a while, it seems likepeople were trading out their
email addresses at a faster andfaster rate, and you mentioned
that that seems to be slowingdown.
Now Can you say a little bitmore about that slowdown that
you're seeing and why you thinkthat's occurring?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yeah, so I think we used to see as high as 2% 3% of
an email list go invalid on amonthly basis and that just
natural churn on a list.
And now we're seeing about halfof that right, so we're under
2% is what we're going to see,where that email address is
changing.
And again, I think it's atribute to two things.
(07:11):
One, you know, and I think thespam issue has been to some
degree, or I guess it's managedwell by Gmail and Yahoo, right,
the algorithms they have, thespam filters they have, the new
rules they have aroundauthentication are going to take
place and I think, on the whole, the inbox is pretty well
controlled.
So there isn't this need toswitch around and run away from
(07:35):
a certain email address.
But the other, and I think mostimportant in this context, is
that email address is how you'reconnecting with a retailer or
an e-commerce business and usingthat as your login Right.
So.
So changing that email addressis can be quite painful and,
when it comes to loyaltyprograms, can be quite
(07:57):
disruptive.
So for that reason, for thosereasons, we think, yeah, the
email address is becoming muchmore sticky as we move here into
the future of the digitalecosystem.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Now, you mentioned spam as well as one of the real
benefits of using your service.
Said it the ability to churnout email addresses and churn
(08:32):
out bad content in order toachieve different aims, either
political aims or retail aims, arange of different kinds of
things.
It seems like there's a chancethat that could really explode
over the next couple of years.
You have the ability to headthat off at the pass, don't you?
How do you do that?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
When we think about creating new email addresses and
the harm that can be done bythat by bad actors.
Certainly we know that Gmail hasthat functionality to use the
plus sign to add trailingcharacters to an email address
and create an infinite number ofemail addresses.
(09:10):
Also, the period or the dot canbe anywhere within an email
address.
So we know that the bad actorscan manipulate that
functionality and try to commitfraud.
Our technology allows us to whatwe call tumble an email address
where we can determine if youtake all of those Gmail
(09:33):
addresses so Brian Cardona, atGmail, I can say Brian Cardona
Press, retail Wire, brianCardona Plus, retailer 1,
retailer 2, retailer 3, and downthe line and tumble that into a
single view for that email andthat allows us to inform our
clients with our fraud riskscore to say, hey, this is one
email address, it all belongs tothis person.
(09:54):
We see the IP addresses in someforeign country that maybe has
less laws or something like this, and so you should apply higher
scrutiny to this registration.
So that's just one example, Ithink.
When we think about spam andemail address intelligence and
at data services, you know, Ithink it's more around
(10:19):
navigating that inbox placementand so entirely separate from
fraud risk.
We think about the quality ofthose email addresses and are
they going to be emails thatengage with people, that engage
with the emails that you send,and if they do, that improves
your sender reputation andtherefore your inbox placement.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Now I say that you've created some sort of engagement
score for email addresses.
Can you say a little bit abouthow you do that and then how you
see retailers using thatinformation to change, maybe,
(11:01):
who they're targeting and, howoften, what kinds of
communications they're doing?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
We have an engagement score that's included as a
feature of our email validationservice, safe2send, and that's
telling us exactly whether thatemail address is across our
broader network of signals andemail.
That's an opener and a clicker.
And again, that's important aswe tie back to the inbox
(11:27):
placement because many times aretailer maybe they're having
inbox placement issues right.
So Gmail or Yahoo, proofpoint,et cetera, have said I don't
like the looks of this mail, orlet me put them in the junk mail
folder, or let me block theiremail and and some of the the
(11:47):
rules they have in place aroundthat are related to engagement.
So you send emails Google100,000 emails and a low
percentage open, you know.
And so a lot of times theadvice there which is good
advice is to say maybe peel offand only mail to your active
email addresses, right?
So let's only engage withemails that have opened, email
(12:08):
addresses that have opened toour campaigns in the last year,
and leave the rest out.
But then you know, mr CEO comesin and says we need more
revenue in this quarter.
You need to send more emails,right?
And now what do you do?
And as the marketer, you'rethinking well, I can take my
(12:28):
inbox placement and mail to mywhole list.
Or?
This is where our service comesin and what it was designed for.
It helps our clients take alook at that inactive data that
they have and determine what'sactive elsewhere across the
broader ad data ecosystem, andthat will mitigate that risk.
So oftentimes it has a US biasthe data signals but oftentimes
(12:50):
for US retailers we'll be ableto say half of the data that you
have as inactive we're seeingactive elsewhere.
So we would suggest, hey, let'sstart marketing with that data
first, reengaging with that datafirst to mitigate the risk of
tanking that inbox placement andthat sender reputation.
So we're pretty excited aboutthat.
It's quite effective serviceagain just to reengage with our
(13:14):
onboard data that perhaps hasbeen inactive with you.
Again just to to to umre-engage with or onboard data
that perhaps has been inactivewith you, whether it's relates
to a loyalty program or, um, youknow other reasons.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
So, brian, uh, obviously open rates these days
are extremely difficult thing tomeasure, um, because uh, more
and more browsers are uh dealingwith that in a way that doesn't
allow marketers to see theresults.
When you look at it, maybe withconversion rates, when you look
at, sort of, an average emailaddress versus one that you
(13:48):
identified as high engagement,what kind of differences can
marketers expect to see?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Well, it depends answer on that, unfortunately,
but I think we would suggestthat marketers take a look at
what their average open ratesare and they will see we're on
par with that for the engageddata that we have.
And your point about the maskingof opens right the masking of
opens right Apple's mail privacyprotection is certainly been
(14:18):
influential, especially for ourclients that have a lot of app
signups.
We're seeing, in some cases,one of our large QSR clients,
their app we're seeing as muchas 10% invalid, so super
important for them to have thatvalidation service layered in
there.
But also around 25 to 30percent mail privacy protection
(14:42):
or hide my email email addressesfor them, and so we can help
them identify them and treatthem accordingly.
So just a lot going on there.
I think when it comes toengagement, it's so often around
and opens and clicks right.
It's so often around thedifferent retail offering that
(15:05):
you have and is it cyclical andso on, and so forth Google
getting closer and closer to thedeprecation of third-party
cookies, which we had spokenabout a little earlier.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
it seems like your capability is going to get more
and more important over time.
Can you talk a little bit aboutkind of how you see that
ecosystem happening right nowand how do you see it evolving
over the next year?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yeah for sure.
So, right, it seems like it'sfinally here.
The third party cookiedeprecation we know I think
Google said 1% was a January andthat they're looking for
alternative methods to kind ofhone in on identity.
And we believe email address isthe place to be when it comes
(16:09):
to identity for all the reasonsI mentioned earlier.
And again, when we think aboutemail address intelligence, it's
time to think about it outsideof the context of, or that
vertical market or, I should say, siloed email marketing
department, and instead look atit as a business.
(16:33):
What is our first party datastrategy and what are the key
pieces of our first party data?
And there, right, when we thinkabout identity, again, email
address, obviously name, postalmobile phone number, maybe
device ID but device IDs aregoing away too, potentially.
So really, we know emailaddresses persistent and we
think, okay, well, what aboutthe privacy compliance and
sensitivities to privacy inthere, Right?
I think that what's interestingthere is the advent of data
(16:56):
clean rooms.
So do data clean rooms allow usto meet and be sensitive to
privacy issues with hashed emailaddresses and again combine
those disparate databases withthe email addresses that can be
components?
So obviously it's quite a bitof change and I think we've
(17:18):
known it's coming, and now,finally, you know, we think it's
going to be here, and so we'reseeing across our client base
again, a further emphasis in astrategic approach to identity
and tying that to the emailaddress identity and tying that
to the email address.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Hey, ted, great.
One question I do have to askyou is every retailer has some
customers in Europe, and if youhave some customers in Europe,
you are subject to GDPR.
And so I was wondering, andyou're subject to it not just
for the customers in Europe.
You have to have the capabilityinside your database anyway, in
(18:01):
addition to CCPA and theMassachusetts laws and the laws
that are cascading across theUnited States.
So you talked about clean rooms.
Would you talk a little more ifa retailer were concerned?
Well, all retailers areconcerned, but they wanted to
ask you about that what wouldyou say?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
With respect to compliance around compliance
compliance with GDPR, I meanright.
So I think the main thing isisolating that data as best you
can and then making sure youhave the appropriate privacy
policy in terms and conditionsand disclosures necessary by
GDPR.
We know CPRA in California isescalating things and from our
(18:44):
side, right, it's just aboutbeing transparent with your
customers as they're providingthat information.
Here's how we're going to useyour data and honoring that
commitment to the clients oryour customers with that data.
You know, as it relates to themarketing side, obviously,
(19:07):
opt-outs and explicit consent.
Gdpr, I think, is distinct inthat the explicit consent is a
little more strict than in theUnited States and so, again,
just making sure that yourwebsite, or when you're
collecting that data, you'readhering to those laws.
I think, from our side, europefeels like it's pretty much
(20:02):
settled.
With respect to how that'sgoing to play out in the States,
I can tell you it's a lot ofstress for the industry with all
the state laws that arecontinuing.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I know the ANA and others are lobbying for federal
legislation so that we asbusinesses can be consistent in
the promises we're making to ourcustomers and then consistently
apply them and not have a forsure, but something we hope is
going to be resolved here in thenext, let's say, year or two,
(20:30):
which is oh, I have a lot ofphysical addresses.
I don't have the emails.
You have the emails, I'll juststart emailing them, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
So that's something that, yeah, I mean, I think
that's I need to say, to beharsh and say, well, you know,
that's, that's often um, the waythe thinking was maybe 10 or 15
years ago.
Today, right, we need to be alot more sensitive, um and right
, um.
First, when it comes tothird-party data, um, our third,
(21:02):
our data is U?
S only.
So you know, um, we haven't,and I know, you know the
European environment isdifferent, so our data is US
only.
But when we're thinking aboutadding third-party data, our
approach is always eyes open,right, why are you adding this
data and what are you going touse it for?
Right, and the hurdles withrespect to can't spam are quite
(21:27):
low.
With respect to can spam arequite low.
I think we'd all admit that lawis maybe over 15 years old
itself, so compliance thereisn't too difficult.
But it's more important tothink about, well, what is the
brand experience?
What are our customersexpecting from us?
And there it makes sense to usethird-party data, but use it in
(21:50):
a way that's on brand, I'll say.
And so, for example, you maynot choose to just start mailing
to the data, but you may use itjust within your identity graph
, or you may use it forattribution, or you may use it
for display, advertising andother means.
So it's definitely, you know,one of those things that it
(22:13):
depends on the business and howthey're set up and what their
brand promise is, but somethingto be thoughtful about for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Excellent.
One last question for you Canyou give us a view of the future
, as you're working on newinitiatives and new capabilities
?
Where do you see things goingfor you and maybe for the
industry over the next becausethings are moving so fast, let's
say over the next?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
two years?
Yeah, sure, I mean, of course,as you mentioned earlier, the AI
, ML, and what does that meanfor us, right?
So from our side, we'reinvesting heavily into our data
science team and we're excitedabout that.
There's some bright youngpeople that are able to do some
great things with all the datathat the world is collecting,
and so that's super exciting howquickly they can spin up and
(23:01):
make decisions and iterate onthose decisions.
It's time to make some changes,so that's something that we're
super excited about.
In the context of, if we're justthinking, a couple of years, I
(23:23):
think we continue to see moreinvestment in that first party
data and how important it isfirst party data and how
important it is right.
We think about the walledgardens and you know the
platforms that say bring yourdata to us and we'll take care
of everything in this black box.
That's often a good approach tothings to get to a solution
quickly, but we think thesmarter longer term strategy is
(23:46):
to take control of your firstparty data and not be so
dependent on the walled gardens.
So that's one, and then justone more, if you allow me to go
a bit past two years, we againthink this persistence of the
email addresses is going tocontinue, right?
So five years from now, 10years from now, will it still be
(24:06):
the email address I mean?
I think you can get.
It's interesting to think aboutmaybe some biotech that might
change things, but that'sprobably a bit further away.
So for now, we see that emailaddress continuing to be
persistent and what we'rethinking about is what other
decisions can we empower withthat email address, right?
So it's again not just a way tosend Mark more emails to get
(24:28):
him to come to the store.
It's also thinking about youknow who is Mark and you know
what are the things that he'sinterested in and what does the
household look like and what arehis behaviors and so on.
And further, even to the extentthat, is it involved in
empowering credit decisions?
So, for example, right, yourname and postal has changed a
(24:51):
lot, but your email ispersistent.
Now we can know more about Markover the last 10 years, where
maybe the home situation wasn'tas stable, right, there's a lot
of Americans that are in thatsituation, that maybe don't have
access to things.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
So we see more and more availability of signals
tied to that email address andwe're excited about the
opportunity it presents, um youknow, to to empower those
decisions well, that led me toone other question, which is
there's a lot of concern thesedays about, um, if you will, the
people who are inadequatelyserved by internet access and by
(25:31):
marketing in general, wherethere may be a situation of
economic inequity that isdriving them to have their
information not as available.
Do you guys have a specificstrategy to address that, or do
you think just overall specificstrategy to address that, or?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
do you think just overall, the way that you reach
out, deals with that.
Yeah, we're thinking about thatnow, right?
So I think there's signals thatwe're able to aggregate and the
privacy compliant way to helpus help those that are kind of
outside of the economy to somedegree for one reason or another
.
You know an open banking, athin credit history Like what
(26:17):
can we learn about this personwith that persistent email
address?
And we're excited again aboutthat opportunity to bring equity
to a broader set of Americans.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
That's great.
Well, thank you, brian.
This has been a wonderful timelearning about you and learning
about AtData, both where you areright now and where you're
going.
I really think the mostexciting piece of all is, as you
mentioned, the email address,not just as a vehicle to send
emails, but to use that as acentral identifier, combined
(26:56):
with other information, to get abetter 360-degree view of
customers, but not justcustomers, but people who have
touched your organization buthave not necessarily, you know,
made a transaction, if you willwarm prospects that are out
there, that have left some pieceof a footprint that allows you
(27:18):
to get a better understanding ofwhere they may be touching the
organization through multipleplaces.
Yeah, yeah, well said, butthank you very much.
Thank you everyone for takingthe time to listen to today's
episode.
If you found today's discussionvaluable, please don't forget
to hit the subscribe button onyour favorite podcast platform
(27:42):
and for the latest news,exciting discussions and a
vibrant community of retailenthusiasts, please be sure to
join our daily newsletter, whichis retailwirecom.
Forward slash subscribe and wewill see you the next time.
Thank you.
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