October 27, 2023 • 30 mins
What if I told you that the path to innovative retail success involves a Volkswagen bus and a lifelong passion for music? That's the fascinating journey of Sweetwater, the leading e-commerce retailer of musical instruments and audio gear in the U.S. Joined with us today is Mike Clem, the new CEO of Sweetwater, Mike shares his unique transition from musician to retailer, and provides insightful anecdotes about the creation of Sweetwater by founder and professional musician, Chuck Surack, who started his venture from the back of a Volkswagen bus!
Are you ready to tap into the secret sauce behind Sweetwater’s success? Get ready to be enthralled as Mike sheds light on the company's unique relationship-based selling model, their fulfilling workplace culture, and their focus on heart and understanding. He also highlights Sweetwater's innovative strategies used for guitar sales, providing a seamless experience between local and online buying. Moreover, he offers an engaging peek into the future of Sweetwater, including how AI might just be the key to making music creation more accessible. Tune in, get inspired, and learn how Sweetwater strikes a chord not just in music, but in the business of retail too!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Welcome to the Retail Wire Podcast, your go-to source
for all things retail.
Whether you're a seasonedindustry veteran or just dipping
your toes into the world ofretail, our podcast is your
one-stop shop for all the latesttrends, insights and
discussions that are shaping thefuture of retail.
I'm your host, chase Benny, andtoday I'm joined by Mike Clem,
the CEO of Sweetwater.
(00:35):
Welcome to the show, mike hey.
Chase, it's great to be here.
Thanks, yeah, great having you.
I have a particular interest inyour sector of the industry, so
I'm going to start with thehardest question first what
instrument do you play?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I've played several instruments, but drums would be
my primary instrument.
And now I'm learning thatyou're a musician.
So now I'm curious what's yourinstrument?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Anything with a string, all right.
My guitar was my first thing, Ithink.
When I was 11 years old I saidDad, I want to play bass guitar.
And he looked at me.
I remember driving in the truckand he goes you want to play
electric guitar?
So he brought me to set me upwith like lead guitar.
So that kicked it off and soyou've always been a drummer.
(01:25):
Is that kind of somethingthat's the base of your
musicianship.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah, play a number of things, but drums is the
instrument I fell in love withgoing back to high school and
college.
Played in a bunch of bands,recorded some music, wrote some
music, and then you have a youngfamily and you kind of set that
aside a little bit.
But I'll get back to you.
Then you tell the instruments,that's right.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah, I was thinking that it's probably a requirement
to play some kind of music ifyou work at Sweetwater, like
most of us do.
Just a little background that Ilearned about you.
Mike Clem is a distinguishedretail executive with a rich
history spanning over twodecades.
He kickstarted his career as amarketing analyst and swiftly
gained recognition for hisdata-driven strategies and
(02:10):
insights.
Sweetwater is a company that'sbased out of Fort Wayne, indiana
, and it is the number onee-commerce retailer of musical
instruments and audio gear inthe US, and I also learned
something about it's in the top10 of Indiana's privately held
(02:31):
companies as well.
So you guys are making waves asan Indiana state privately held
and it's kind of one of that onthat cusp where it could be
public but it's private.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
And very proud of that, and just here in Fort
Wayne and our community one ofthe top employers and our
founders from here, and so we'reactually very proud that we get
to give back to this communitythat was good in growing us up.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Can you tell us more about what got you into the
retail sector Was it the love ofmusic?
And just more about thiscategory that you're in?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, sure.
So lifelong musician, and sohow I got to the music industry
is one part of the story.
How I got to retail, totalaccident.
And so my background istechnology and marketing going
back to 1990s, kind of at thebeginning of the Internet, and
came out of school, worked forsome digital agencies and just
(03:34):
by chance started in retail andworking with some big names and
also some startups.
Had a lot of fun doing that andthen found my way here in 2003
and married the two passions, asthey say.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Nice.
Maybe there are some in ouraudience who haven't heard of
Sweetwater before.
Can you share a little bitabout the company we heard?
There's a really interestingorigin story.
I don't know what part you loveto tell.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Sure, yeah.
So the US leading onlineretailer of musical instruments.
It's about a billion and a halfdollar company, about 10
million customers, from thebeginner down the street
learning to play guitar, all theway up through Nama, rockstar.
We very likely work with themChurches, schools, nfl stadiums,
(04:24):
cruise ships based in here inFort Wayne with about 2,600
employees.
The most interesting thingabout our business is this is
not pure play e-commerce.
This is what we would callconsultive, relationship based
selling, and so the magic here,the centerpiece, are these 700,
(04:44):
what we call sales engineersSuper highly trained.
They're experts from all overthe country.
They come here to Fort Wayne asa customer.
You get paired up with one ofthese experts and then each time
you interact with us, you getthat same guy or gal who then
truly is like learningeverything you're trying to do
with music and just kind ofnurturing that relationship and
(05:05):
helping you along that journey,and so you can imagine the
loyalty and retention that thatspins off and it just makes us
really unique in our industry.
Oh, the origins story.
So Chuck Sturrock, our founderprofessional musician back
through the 60s and 70s who,when he was not on the road, was
(05:29):
running a recording studioliterally out of the back of his
Volkswagen bus.
As a starving musician he's gotthis great story.
The bus was full of spray paintand Bondo and he would travel
the country with it.
But he was using some reallytip of the spear technology very
early in the industry and hekind of became known as a
technology pioneer and was allof a sudden the phone is ringing
(05:52):
and these very, very majorartists are calling and saying
hey, we hear you're the guythat's figured out this
technology, and so over time itjust evolved then into hey, do
you think you could sell me thegear?
And that's where retail wasborn.
So there's your origin story.
So he was like the techie guywho was figuring out the sound
samples and cartridges and backbefore it was a digital, I mean
(06:17):
the kind of software based yougot it Like these earliest
synthesizers and digitalsampling was a brand new
technology and there weren'tvery many people that knew how
to do it, and so, interestingly,we kind of started at the top
of the pyramid, if you will verymajor artists and a lot of our
growth is actually coming downmarket, which is fairly unique
in retail.
It's a fun story.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
That is quite different than a lot of industry
players may have started asmore of traditional instruments,
band instruments and woodeninstruments and things like that
and then started to say, well,we better add some of the
electronic stuff.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I think that's fair and we talk a lot.
Even in our marketing we'recareful to say we sell to music
makers, not necessarilymusicians, because you may be on
stage, you may be behind stage,out at the mixing board, and so
, yeah, we serve all the way,from the instruments on the
stage to the technology andeverything in between.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
That's it's important little detail, the little
changes in verbiage frommusician to music maker.
With your role as CEO, I knowthis is a new thing.
Well, you've been with thecompany a long time, but with
your new role, I was curiouswhat are your priorities with
Sweetwater and how do you planto lead the company into this
(07:41):
new era of retail?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah, sure.
So, yeah, I've been here for 20years and I guess you know,
being in technology andmarketing, no shortage of good
ideas here.
I think we know exactly how togrow this company into the next
generation of kind of digitalfirst shopping.
I think probably my biggestopportunity as the leader is
really knowing what not tochange.
This is a playbook that's beenrefined for four decades and
(08:05):
really is unique in its humanrelationship based approach, and
so you know, we win by beingthe most human.
We obsess over details, we takea long view with our customers
and invest for very long termrelationships, and so so our
founder, chuck, always taught usyou take care of one customer
at a time, one detail at a time.
(08:26):
The money will follow, andthat's always been true, and so
I think my goal as leader is tokeep us thinking through that
lens.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I love the lens and I love that legacy that he's
passing on to you Something tosome court a torch to carry.
That does tie into one of mynext questions, which is about
company culture.
As a company that sells gearand you know this stuff is kind
(08:55):
of technical gear at times is inaddition to musical instruments
You'd think that you would talkmore about the features and all
that stuff, but it sounds likeyou put a lot of emphasis on the
people, the human side of it.
I read that Sweetwater had beenrecognized as one of America's
(09:17):
greatest workplaces in 2023.
And you've won countless awards, such as the best company
compensation, best company perksand benefits, greatest
workplaces for diversity andbest company culture.
How is this placed in your, inyour priorities as a CEO?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Right at the top.
And so thank you, whatwonderful question.
We were relationship basedcompany in a high passion
industry, and so it's reallyimportant for us that, as we
hire, that we're hiring peoplethat are in it for love of the
game, so that you can reflectthat that same passion and
positivity back out into ourcustomers and at every touch
point with a customer.
(09:59):
And so we're very careful howwe hire.
We have a really uniquetraining program.
So you talk about like kind oftechnical expertise versus
customer service.
We have what we call SweetwaterUniversity.
It's a 13 week training program.
When we hire a new sales person, that guy or gal will literally
go through 13 weeks of trainingbefore they ever interact with
a customer.
I've never seen anything likeit.
(10:20):
And it's a combination ofbusiness training, technical
knowledge, customer service, allof our systems we talk a lot
about.
You're either adding to ourcredibility or you're taking
away, and so it's very importantto us that as you roll out onto
the sales team, that you'reable to come in at a very high
caliber and have that balance ofboth expertise and relationship
(10:41):
.
And then we do a lot oftraining into our leadership
team.
Those frontline leaders wethink are really important.
So we're very intentional aboutbuilding up our folks so that
we can maintain that culture.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
The word credibility stands out to me.
It's something that you canbuild and retain, but it takes a
lot of extra effort to planthat out.
We talk a lot about credibility.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
We also talk a lot about character.
There's a lot of things I canteach you, but we're looking for
people that have the rightheart coming in.
Are you here to serve, to bepart of something bigger than
yourself?
So we really are looking forthat right profile that says I'm
in it for love of the game.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
What are some other specific initiatives you've
implemented for this positivework environment?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, well, one thing we have invested in space.
So our campus here in FortWayne is 176 acres with almost a
million square feet under roofwith a number of amenities.
So we have a diner, we have acoffee shop, a doctor, a nurse,
(11:56):
a fitness center, massagetherapist, concierge, on and on.
We think it's important notjust for recruiting and
attracting talent, but alsolisten.
We're displacing a lot of theseemployees from around the
country from their normalsupport network.
We think it's really importantthat as you come in here, what
can we do to build that culturebut also just ease some of
(12:20):
life's burdens, if you will?
It's really important to us aswe still think very much like a
smaller company and a veryfamily mindset.
So we invest a lot in thecampus and that's really paid
off for us.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Well, Can imagine that fosters more of a community
and a nice place to work.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
I think, in the campus and then also we just
invest in families.
We try to do things outside ofthe work together too.
We talk a lot about doing lifetogether, not just business, and
that goes into visits to localsporting events or, you know,
the zoo or concerts or things inour backyard.
So we're very intentional andproactive about that.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
How do you strike this balance between fostering
the strong work ethic and then,you know, also ensuring that
it's a fulfilling personal lifeoutside of work?
You mentioned you know doingthings together, you know the
outings, the communityinvolvement.
Fort Wayne is not the largestcity in America so I think that
(13:19):
you're, you know you would bekind of a bigger anchor in that
community.
Just curious about that balancebetween you know working hard
and a fulfilling workplace.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah, it's the right question.
And so we, you know we investin this culture, we invest in
this campus, these family events.
Beyond that, fort Wayne isactually.
There's a wonderful, wonderfulmomentum here.
We have a reputation as kind ofa old, rusty manufacturing town
, but there's actually a reallycool resurgence going on and I
think Sweetwater, in a uniqueway, has been part of that to
(13:53):
bring in all this.
You know, musical creativetalent from around the country.
So it's really really hard togo into a bar or a church and
not find great music here intown.
So we have that kind of commonbond and I think really, you
know, in work-life balance, Ithink a lot of us find our
outlet by being part of thecreative culture here now in
Fort Wayne.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I've seen that kind of snowball in different cities
that when they became known as.
Like Bentonville, arkansas isstarting to be known as the
mountain biking city, and so youget people moving here just for
that.
So on weekends you'll see, youknow, mountain bikes off the
back of the trucks and it's justa common thing you know at the
(14:34):
local pubs and coffee shops.
Like I could imagine that beinga similar effect in your town.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, thanks very much.
I love your presence.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
That's great.
Do you have any advice forother companies striving to
create this workplace culturethat you've created?
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Advice for other companies.
So sure, so we.
I think the way I would say ithere is we start with heart.
Every conversation starts withheart, and then we have to break
apart and say, well, what doesthat mean?
And so you can talk abouthaving a heart for customers,
but what about employees?
What about vendors, what aboutthis community?
And so then we try to thinkstrategically about that, which
(15:14):
is like what are the proactivethings that we can write down on
a roadmap and then make sure weget those done, protect time
for it, protect resources, evenmeasure it like is it working?
So we talk a lot about hearthere.
I mentioned frontline leadershipearlier.
That's really, really important, I think, this concept of
what's the saying you quit aboss, you don't quit a company,
(15:37):
and so we really believe thathere, which is like we really
want you to have a greatexperience all the way down to
the interaction with your localleader, and so we invest a lot
in frontline leadership.
I think that's one thing we'velearned and for our culture,
we're very much in-person.
A lot of companies nowdistributed, remote, which works
great for some.
I think what works well forours is being in one place when
(16:00):
you're such a creative kind ofcollaborative culture.
For us it's all the training Ijust mentioned like so more
meaningful to do that in-personhands on the gear and the
instruments, and so maybe that'smy advice, is that's the things
we've learned that have reallyenabled the culture for us.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Kind of relying on the connection between the team
members as much as relying on,maybe a system or a process
that's kind of strictly laid out.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I think that's right and we've just learned that
that's best done in proximityand we're just all part of this
fabric, this culture that kindof passes down through
generations, and so we'velearned that's the best way to
approach it.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
On the e-commerce side, I'm curious about how
Sweetwater has managed to standout in the online space when you
don't have the physicalin-store presence that some of
the competitors in the musicspace have, and then just to
(17:10):
stand out amongst othercompetitors I won't name them,
but you have competitors in theonline space as well.
How do you stand out andout-compete?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, I think there's probably many answers to that,
chase, but I think that maybethe one I would lift up to you
is we really focus on addingmore value, and not just adding
more value, but addingunexpected value.
Examples might be with most ofour purchases, we throw in a
(17:41):
two-year warranty for free.
We throw in tech support afterthe sale for free shipping.
We even throw free candy in thebox unexpectedly.
We do a cool thing with guitarsAny guitar over $3.99,.
We actually take these guitarsout of the box.
When we receive them, weinspect them.
They go through what we call a55-point inspection.
Technicians are actuallylooking for defects, cosmetic
(18:03):
issues or adjusting theinstrument and then we
photograph them so that onlineyou can actually choose the
exact guitar that shows up atyour door with this wood grain
and not that wood.
It's like little details likethat, I think probably the one
thing that really helps us standout, because otherwise it is
very much a brick-and-mortarkind of purchase.
It's an emotional purchase.
(18:24):
I want to see it, hear it, feelit.
For us, we've been able tobridge that gap, if you will, by
offering all these values.
I think been able to reallyaccelerate our growth by
thinking very consciously abouthow do we bridge that gap to an
otherwise local purchase?
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Have there been any challenges to that where you
knew that you had to step upyour game in the online space?
Is there anything that youremember that was a difficult
challenge?
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, I think there's a challenge.
I mean, yeah, I probably couldname all kinds of challenges.
It's an expensive businessmodel is one problem.
When you're giving all thatvalue to customers, we have to
be very efficient in all theother parts of the business and
run in pretty lean ways.
That really is the strategy.
We win by giving where othercompanies win by cutting costs
(19:15):
or cutting corners.
We believe it's just the rightthing to do for human beings.
This whole business model isbased on how do we just make
that experience great and gojust a little bit over the top
for you?
That's kind of the heart ofthis company.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I like that.
A little bit over the top goesa long way.
What strategies have you hasSweetwater employed to reach and
engage your target audience?
Maybe that word, targetaudience, is up for grabs here
(19:52):
too.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Sir, we maybe a couple of directions here.
One is, like I said we're verymuch the human, one-to-one
relationship company.
Even when you buy online,you're paired up with one of
these sales experts and we're onthe phone with you.
Not just online behavior likeAmazon or others.
We're really hearing all theemotion and passion under the
(20:19):
purchase.
We're learning you collectguitars, left-handed guitars,
vintage.
We're carefully learning aboutyou and you can imagine just the
amount of personalization thatwe can do one-to-one marketing,
the web personalization.
We also empower all of our folksto just go the extra mile to
solve any issues that we mighthave with the customer.
(20:43):
They go to great lengths.
A funny story we had a customerrecently just screaming at us
that we really ruined a purchase.
And we get through the call andwe find out they did not buy it
from us, they bought it from acompetitor Chase.
To solve it, we just went aheadand replaced it for free and
(21:03):
just blew their mind that wewould go to those lengths.
It's that kind of culture thatsays we just want to go over the
top.
You say what strategies do weemploy?
I really think at the heart ofour business model is we just
want to be real and human andjust take care of the.
So that's at the center of theanswer.
(21:23):
The other thing I would say toyou we really talk about
demonstrating that expertise andthat relationship online I
think especially online today,very crowded.
A lot of this generation isjust looking for price and
availability, and so it becomesreally important to interrupt
those digital journeys for allof us retailers and say how do I
stop you and sort of tell youmy unique story?
(21:45):
We do a lot of bringing thatexpertise up into our website.
We talk a lot about being theresearch destination and how can
we educate and how can we?
You know, we bring more videosor tech support or quick start
guides.
A lot of our investment isreally in not so much a
marketing strategy or tactic asmuch as like how do we just
provide value to you and sort ofinterrupt an assumption you
(22:08):
might otherwise have?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Just thinking about the entire journey of how
someone becomes a customer, whatdo they need even before and
after becoming a customer andimmersing your company into that
with?
All the content you provide.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
I think that's right.
I have this theory in retail,like where we transact
potentially becomes lessinteresting, but where we
research and where we discovernew products, I think is where a
lot of balance of power is.
For us, that's a pretty biginvestment that we continue to
make, even into the future.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Well, it's an industry where a lot of research
is done before making apurchase.
Very much so, that's right,thank you.
Anything about the future ofSweetwater?
Do you have any visions for thechallenges ahead, the changes
in technology We've got allkinds of things with AI coming
(23:07):
up and behavioral changes in howpeople purchase and how they
interact online?
Just general vision for thefuture.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
We very much think about how do we just stay true
to who we are and invest inthese relationships, these
existing customers millions ofthem and how do we just continue
to add more value than others?
That's the core, if you will,we think a lot about.
Then there are new markets thatwe're finding really great
(23:44):
growth in.
Band and orchestra instrumentslike K-12 is a new space for us.
Content creators, not justmusicians or music makers, but
now podcasting and streaming andso forth.
Huge market for us, used gearis something we've not done a
lot with.
I think we have growth areaslike that.
(24:04):
You mentioned artificialintelligence.
We actually think a lot ofdebate.
You probably can't do a podcastnow without ending with JNAI
somewhere in the conversation.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yeah, I know, I didn't even want to say it.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Hey, listen, in the music industry we actually are
pretty excited about it.
In an interesting way, I thinkit will actually for us, we
believe, lower the bar, if youwill, or ease the entry point
into making music.
Oh wow, this is fun.
Now maybe I move my way intoreal instruments and buying gear
(24:41):
.
We actually think it expandsour industry.
Then obviously, all theconventional ways that we think
it can help us in making ourpeople smarter and more
efficient.
I always say, being such ahuman relationship-based company
, I'm interested in AI thataugments our humans and not
(25:01):
replaces them.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, that's a really mature perspective.
I think a lot of the bestcompanies are taking that stance
on it.
I did like what you said aboutthat.
Music has a hurdle to get into.
When I took guitar lessons itwas three years Now.
After a year I could start tolearn stuff of my own.
(25:23):
But yeah, three years of guitarlessons gave me a good
foundation.
Not everyone has the I didn'tknow any better, so I was, I
think, 11 years old.
Now, if you tell me I challengeyou to learn the flute I know
how long it takes to learn Ialmost get like I don't want to
(25:44):
take on a new project.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, it's a concern.
It takes grit and it takesdetermination.
Generationally we may be movingto a little more instant
gratification kind of mindset.
I really do think AI and listen, other kind of apps and
software-based there's a lot ofmusic making that's moving into
more digital ways.
That excites us.
If that's a new entry point,then we think that's not just
(26:08):
great for our sales and business, but just as a society we just
think that's fantastic tounleash more creativity.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Another wave of music making growth.
I remember in kind of themid-2000s, although home audio
systems started to be $99, andyou're like I can actually start
recording at home for like acouple hundred dollars of
equipment.
That's right, and that was abig kind of a revolution in
(26:37):
music making.
Yeah, you got it.
We talked about this already.
Really, we hit on thetechnology side of how
Sweetwater is leveragingtechnology to your advantage.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, I think all the things we said.
I think the other thing that'stop of mind for us technology
would just be personalization,this business model.
We just understand ourcustomers at such a deeper level
, we have such a richunderstanding, and I think our
focus is on how do we use moreand more technology to, not as a
(27:15):
business tactic, but as likehow do you create more value for
that customer.
The more we can understand them, the more we can drop the right
moments in front of them,whether that's product
recommendations or even justcontent or education or
entertainment, and so I thinkthat's top of mind for us in our
technology roadmap.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Being able to personalize and treat everyone
like the individual uniquecustomers that they are.
That's right Now.
This is kind of a I'm going toask you to predict the future.
But do you see any biginnovations that might catch
e-commerce retailers off guard,or any in the industry, but
(27:53):
especially where you are,anything that you think would
kind of disrupt or catch othersoff guard?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, I think it's gen AI, so I can't use that as
my answer.
I think that listen.
The other thing, chase, I thinkis you know, we think a lot
about privacy, consumerprotection very important to our
heart.
We're a relationship basedcompany and so we work really
hard to build thoserelationships, get permission to
contact customers, and I thinkwe're seeing a lot of
(28:21):
legislation, we're seeing a lotof mindset evolving around here.
So one thing I guess I wouldencourage is don't be caught off
guard by that.
We are taking steps to say, hey, listen, this is we've been
doing it the right way for fourdecades, creating relationships,
and there's a lot of retailersthat are maybe getting surprised
(28:43):
by states that are closing someof those doors.
Cookies are crumbling, like howwill I reach my customers, and
so if you're not payingattention there, I think that's
one that we would lift up andencourage you.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Very important, kind of on the not something that
everyone thinks of, but it'ssomething that's near and dear
to most people is the dataprivacy.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Yeah, and our heart would be listen.
We believe in that.
Let's do it the right way.
We don't want to be creepieracross that line.
In the same vein, we have anincredible head start because we
really have been nurturingthose relationships for so many
years, and so there will be amoment where some will
accelerate some and decelerateother retailers.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Mike, catch you off guard on this one.
I'm looking for some new musicto listen to.
Any recommendations?
Oh boy.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
I can't answer Chase, because they're all customers
and we love all of our kids here, so I'm going to have to dodge
the question.
I'm sorry.
What's your normal playlist?
Where are you normally?
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Normal playlist is kind of in a little bit of like
indie folk.
You know kind of indie folksounds Sometimes I don't have
any names coming to me at thetop of my head.
I used to be really into likeI'd get a super fan of a
specific artist.
And now I've got kids, I've runa business and now I just hit
(30:08):
shuffle.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
I'm exactly there with you.
My favorite thing is, like Idon't know Spotify.
You just tell me and I discoverso many new things and I
actually love that.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Well, this has been fun.
Mike, thank you for coming on.
Great insights.
Loved learning about thecompany and your vision, and
thanks to everyone listening fortaking the time to listen to
today's episode.
If you found it valuable,please share, hit, subscribe,
connect with us on LinkedIn orfind us on your favorite podcast
(30:39):
platform.
Mike, thanks again for comingon.
It's been great.
Hey, I had a lot of fun, thankyou.
Welcome to the Retail Wire Podcast, your go-to source
for all things retail.
Whether you're a seasonedindustry veteran or just dipping
your toes into the world ofretail, our podcast is your
one-stop shop for all the latesttrends, insights and
discussions that are shaping thefuture of retail.
I'm your host, chase Benny, andtoday I'm joined by Mike Clem,
the CEO of Sweetwater.
(00:35):
Welcome to the show, mike hey.
Chase, it's great to be here.
Thanks, yeah, great having you.
I have a particular interest inyour sector of the industry, so
I'm going to start with thehardest question first what
instrument do you play?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I've played several instruments, but drums would be
my primary instrument.
And now I'm learning thatyou're a musician.
So now I'm curious what's yourinstrument?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Anything with a string, all right.
My guitar was my first thing, Ithink.
When I was 11 years old I saidDad, I want to play bass guitar.
And he looked at me.
I remember driving in the truckand he goes you want to play
electric guitar?
So he brought me to set me upwith like lead guitar.
So that kicked it off and soyou've always been a drummer.
(01:25):
Is that kind of somethingthat's the base of your
musicianship.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah, play a number of things, but drums is the
instrument I fell in love withgoing back to high school and
college.
Played in a bunch of bands,recorded some music, wrote some
music, and then you have a youngfamily and you kind of set that
aside a little bit.
But I'll get back to you.
Then you tell the instruments,that's right.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah, I was thinking that it's probably a requirement
to play some kind of music ifyou work at Sweetwater, like
most of us do.
Just a little background that Ilearned about you.
Mike Clem is a distinguishedretail executive with a rich
history spanning over twodecades.
He kickstarted his career as amarketing analyst and swiftly
gained recognition for hisdata-driven strategies and
(02:10):
insights.
Sweetwater is a company that'sbased out of Fort Wayne, indiana
, and it is the number onee-commerce retailer of musical
instruments and audio gear inthe US, and I also learned
something about it's in the top10 of Indiana's privately held
(02:31):
companies as well.
So you guys are making waves asan Indiana state privately held
and it's kind of one of that onthat cusp where it could be
public but it's private.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
And very proud of that, and just here in Fort
Wayne and our community one ofthe top employers and our
founders from here, and so we'reactually very proud that we get
to give back to this communitythat was good in growing us up.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Can you tell us more about what got you into the
retail sector Was it the love ofmusic?
And just more about thiscategory that you're in?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, sure.
So lifelong musician, and sohow I got to the music industry
is one part of the story.
How I got to retail, totalaccident.
And so my background istechnology and marketing going
back to 1990s, kind of at thebeginning of the Internet, and
came out of school, worked forsome digital agencies and just
(03:34):
by chance started in retail andworking with some big names and
also some startups.
Had a lot of fun doing that andthen found my way here in 2003
and married the two passions, asthey say.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Nice.
Maybe there are some in ouraudience who haven't heard of
Sweetwater before.
Can you share a little bitabout the company we heard?
There's a really interestingorigin story.
I don't know what part you loveto tell.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Sure, yeah.
So the US leading onlineretailer of musical instruments.
It's about a billion and a halfdollar company, about 10
million customers, from thebeginner down the street
learning to play guitar, all theway up through Nama, rockstar.
We very likely work with themChurches, schools, nfl stadiums,
(04:24):
cruise ships based in here inFort Wayne with about 2,600
employees.
The most interesting thingabout our business is this is
not pure play e-commerce.
This is what we would callconsultive, relationship based
selling, and so the magic here,the centerpiece, are these 700,
(04:44):
what we call sales engineersSuper highly trained.
They're experts from all overthe country.
They come here to Fort Wayne asa customer.
You get paired up with one ofthese experts and then each time
you interact with us, you getthat same guy or gal who then
truly is like learningeverything you're trying to do
with music and just kind ofnurturing that relationship and
(05:05):
helping you along that journey,and so you can imagine the
loyalty and retention that thatspins off and it just makes us
really unique in our industry.
Oh, the origins story.
So Chuck Sturrock, our founderprofessional musician back
through the 60s and 70s who,when he was not on the road, was
(05:29):
running a recording studioliterally out of the back of his
Volkswagen bus.
As a starving musician he's gotthis great story.
The bus was full of spray paintand Bondo and he would travel
the country with it.
But he was using some reallytip of the spear technology very
early in the industry and hekind of became known as a
technology pioneer and was allof a sudden the phone is ringing
(05:52):
and these very, very majorartists are calling and saying
hey, we hear you're the guythat's figured out this
technology, and so over time itjust evolved then into hey, do
you think you could sell me thegear?
And that's where retail wasborn.
So there's your origin story.
So he was like the techie guywho was figuring out the sound
samples and cartridges and backbefore it was a digital, I mean
(06:17):
the kind of software based yougot it Like these earliest
synthesizers and digitalsampling was a brand new
technology and there weren'tvery many people that knew how
to do it, and so, interestingly,we kind of started at the top
of the pyramid, if you will verymajor artists and a lot of our
growth is actually coming downmarket, which is fairly unique
in retail.
It's a fun story.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
That is quite different than a lot of industry
players may have started asmore of traditional instruments,
band instruments and woodeninstruments and things like that
and then started to say, well,we better add some of the
electronic stuff.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I think that's fair and we talk a lot.
Even in our marketing we'recareful to say we sell to music
makers, not necessarilymusicians, because you may be on
stage, you may be behind stage,out at the mixing board, and so
, yeah, we serve all the way,from the instruments on the
stage to the technology andeverything in between.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
That's it's important little detail, the little
changes in verbiage frommusician to music maker.
With your role as CEO, I knowthis is a new thing.
Well, you've been with thecompany a long time, but with
your new role, I was curiouswhat are your priorities with
Sweetwater and how do you planto lead the company into this
(07:41):
new era of retail?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah, sure.
So, yeah, I've been here for 20years and I guess you know,
being in technology andmarketing, no shortage of good
ideas here.
I think we know exactly how togrow this company into the next
generation of kind of digitalfirst shopping.
I think probably my biggestopportunity as the leader is
really knowing what not tochange.
This is a playbook that's beenrefined for four decades and
(08:05):
really is unique in its humanrelationship based approach, and
so you know, we win by beingthe most human.
We obsess over details, we takea long view with our customers
and invest for very long termrelationships, and so so our
founder, chuck, always taught usyou take care of one customer
at a time, one detail at a time.
(08:26):
The money will follow, andthat's always been true, and so
I think my goal as leader is tokeep us thinking through that
lens.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I love the lens and I love that legacy that he's
passing on to you Something tosome court a torch to carry.
That does tie into one of mynext questions, which is about
company culture.
As a company that sells gearand you know this stuff is kind
(08:55):
of technical gear at times is inaddition to musical instruments
You'd think that you would talkmore about the features and all
that stuff, but it sounds likeyou put a lot of emphasis on the
people, the human side of it.
I read that Sweetwater had beenrecognized as one of America's
(09:17):
greatest workplaces in 2023.
And you've won countless awards, such as the best company
compensation, best company perksand benefits, greatest
workplaces for diversity andbest company culture.
How is this placed in your, inyour priorities as a CEO?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Right at the top.
And so thank you, whatwonderful question.
We were relationship basedcompany in a high passion
industry, and so it's reallyimportant for us that, as we
hire, that we're hiring peoplethat are in it for love of the
game, so that you can reflectthat that same passion and
positivity back out into ourcustomers and at every touch
point with a customer.
(09:59):
And so we're very careful howwe hire.
We have a really uniquetraining program.
So you talk about like kind oftechnical expertise versus
customer service.
We have what we call SweetwaterUniversity.
It's a 13 week training program.
When we hire a new sales person, that guy or gal will literally
go through 13 weeks of trainingbefore they ever interact with
a customer.
I've never seen anything likeit.
(10:20):
And it's a combination ofbusiness training, technical
knowledge, customer service, allof our systems we talk a lot
about.
You're either adding to ourcredibility or you're taking
away, and so it's very importantto us that as you roll out onto
the sales team, that you'reable to come in at a very high
caliber and have that balance ofboth expertise and relationship
(10:41):
.
And then we do a lot oftraining into our leadership
team.
Those frontline leaders wethink are really important.
So we're very intentional aboutbuilding up our folks so that
we can maintain that culture.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
The word credibility stands out to me.
It's something that you canbuild and retain, but it takes a
lot of extra effort to planthat out.
We talk a lot about credibility.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
We also talk a lot about character.
There's a lot of things I canteach you, but we're looking for
people that have the rightheart coming in.
Are you here to serve, to bepart of something bigger than
yourself?
So we really are looking forthat right profile that says I'm
in it for love of the game.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
What are some other specific initiatives you've
implemented for this positivework environment?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, well, one thing we have invested in space.
So our campus here in FortWayne is 176 acres with almost a
million square feet under roofwith a number of amenities.
So we have a diner, we have acoffee shop, a doctor, a nurse,
(11:56):
a fitness center, massagetherapist, concierge, on and on.
We think it's important notjust for recruiting and
attracting talent, but alsolisten.
We're displacing a lot of theseemployees from around the
country from their normalsupport network.
We think it's really importantthat as you come in here, what
can we do to build that culturebut also just ease some of
(12:20):
life's burdens, if you will?
It's really important to us aswe still think very much like a
smaller company and a veryfamily mindset.
So we invest a lot in thecampus and that's really paid
off for us.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Well, Can imagine that fosters more of a community
and a nice place to work.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
I think, in the campus and then also we just
invest in families.
We try to do things outside ofthe work together too.
We talk a lot about doing lifetogether, not just business, and
that goes into visits to localsporting events or, you know,
the zoo or concerts or things inour backyard.
So we're very intentional andproactive about that.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
How do you strike this balance between fostering
the strong work ethic and then,you know, also ensuring that
it's a fulfilling personal lifeoutside of work?
You mentioned you know doingthings together, you know the
outings, the communityinvolvement.
Fort Wayne is not the largestcity in America so I think that
(13:19):
you're, you know you would bekind of a bigger anchor in that
community.
Just curious about that balancebetween you know working hard
and a fulfilling workplace.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah, it's the right question.
And so we, you know we investin this culture, we invest in
this campus, these family events.
Beyond that, fort Wayne isactually.
There's a wonderful, wonderfulmomentum here.
We have a reputation as kind ofa old, rusty manufacturing town
, but there's actually a reallycool resurgence going on and I
think Sweetwater, in a uniqueway, has been part of that to
(13:53):
bring in all this.
You know, musical creativetalent from around the country.
So it's really really hard togo into a bar or a church and
not find great music here intown.
So we have that kind of commonbond and I think really, you
know, in work-life balance, Ithink a lot of us find our
outlet by being part of thecreative culture here now in
Fort Wayne.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I've seen that kind of snowball in different cities
that when they became known as.
Like Bentonville, arkansas isstarting to be known as the
mountain biking city, and so youget people moving here just for
that.
So on weekends you'll see, youknow, mountain bikes off the
back of the trucks and it's justa common thing you know at the
(14:34):
local pubs and coffee shops.
Like I could imagine that beinga similar effect in your town.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, thanks very much.
I love your presence.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
That's great.
Do you have any advice forother companies striving to
create this workplace culturethat you've created?
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Advice for other companies.
So sure, so we.
I think the way I would say ithere is we start with heart.
Every conversation starts withheart, and then we have to break
apart and say, well, what doesthat mean?
And so you can talk abouthaving a heart for customers,
but what about employees?
What about vendors, what aboutthis community?
And so then we try to thinkstrategically about that, which
(15:14):
is like what are the proactivethings that we can write down on
a roadmap and then make sure weget those done, protect time
for it, protect resources, evenmeasure it like is it working?
So we talk a lot about hearthere.
I mentioned frontline leadershipearlier.
That's really, really important, I think, this concept of
what's the saying you quit aboss, you don't quit a company,
(15:37):
and so we really believe thathere, which is like we really
want you to have a greatexperience all the way down to
the interaction with your localleader, and so we invest a lot
in frontline leadership.
I think that's one thing we'velearned and for our culture,
we're very much in-person.
A lot of companies nowdistributed, remote, which works
great for some.
I think what works well forours is being in one place when
(16:00):
you're such a creative kind ofcollaborative culture.
For us it's all the training Ijust mentioned like so more
meaningful to do that in-personhands on the gear and the
instruments, and so maybe that'smy advice, is that's the things
we've learned that have reallyenabled the culture for us.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Kind of relying on the connection between the team
members as much as relying on,maybe a system or a process
that's kind of strictly laid out.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I think that's right and we've just learned that
that's best done in proximityand we're just all part of this
fabric, this culture that kindof passes down through
generations, and so we'velearned that's the best way to
approach it.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
On the e-commerce side, I'm curious about how
Sweetwater has managed to standout in the online space when you
don't have the physicalin-store presence that some of
the competitors in the musicspace have, and then just to
(17:10):
stand out amongst othercompetitors I won't name them,
but you have competitors in theonline space as well.
How do you stand out andout-compete?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, I think there's probably many answers to that,
chase, but I think that maybethe one I would lift up to you
is we really focus on addingmore value, and not just adding
more value, but addingunexpected value.
Examples might be with most ofour purchases, we throw in a
(17:41):
two-year warranty for free.
We throw in tech support afterthe sale for free shipping.
We even throw free candy in thebox unexpectedly.
We do a cool thing with guitarsAny guitar over $3.99,.
We actually take these guitarsout of the box.
When we receive them, weinspect them.
They go through what we call a55-point inspection.
Technicians are actuallylooking for defects, cosmetic
(18:03):
issues or adjusting theinstrument and then we
photograph them so that onlineyou can actually choose the
exact guitar that shows up atyour door with this wood grain
and not that wood.
It's like little details likethat, I think probably the one
thing that really helps us standout, because otherwise it is
very much a brick-and-mortarkind of purchase.
It's an emotional purchase.
(18:24):
I want to see it, hear it, feelit.
For us, we've been able tobridge that gap, if you will, by
offering all these values.
I think been able to reallyaccelerate our growth by
thinking very consciously abouthow do we bridge that gap to an
otherwise local purchase?
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Have there been any challenges to that where you
knew that you had to step upyour game in the online space?
Is there anything that youremember that was a difficult
challenge?
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, I think there's a challenge.
I mean, yeah, I probably couldname all kinds of challenges.
It's an expensive businessmodel is one problem.
When you're giving all thatvalue to customers, we have to
be very efficient in all theother parts of the business and
run in pretty lean ways.
That really is the strategy.
We win by giving where othercompanies win by cutting costs
(19:15):
or cutting corners.
We believe it's just the rightthing to do for human beings.
This whole business model isbased on how do we just make
that experience great and gojust a little bit over the top
for you?
That's kind of the heart ofthis company.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I like that.
A little bit over the top goesa long way.
What strategies have you hasSweetwater employed to reach and
engage your target audience?
Maybe that word, targetaudience, is up for grabs here
(19:52):
too.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Sir, we maybe a couple of directions here.
One is, like I said we're verymuch the human, one-to-one
relationship company.
Even when you buy online,you're paired up with one of
these sales experts and we're onthe phone with you.
Not just online behavior likeAmazon or others.
We're really hearing all theemotion and passion under the
(20:19):
purchase.
We're learning you collectguitars, left-handed guitars,
vintage.
We're carefully learning aboutyou and you can imagine just the
amount of personalization thatwe can do one-to-one marketing,
the web personalization.
We also empower all of our folksto just go the extra mile to
solve any issues that we mighthave with the customer.
(20:43):
They go to great lengths.
A funny story we had a customerrecently just screaming at us
that we really ruined a purchase.
And we get through the call andwe find out they did not buy it
from us, they bought it from acompetitor Chase.
To solve it, we just went aheadand replaced it for free and
(21:03):
just blew their mind that wewould go to those lengths.
It's that kind of culture thatsays we just want to go over the
top.
You say what strategies do weemploy?
I really think at the heart ofour business model is we just
want to be real and human andjust take care of the.
So that's at the center of theanswer.
(21:23):
The other thing I would say toyou we really talk about
demonstrating that expertise andthat relationship online I
think especially online today,very crowded.
A lot of this generation isjust looking for price and
availability, and so it becomesreally important to interrupt
those digital journeys for allof us retailers and say how do I
stop you and sort of tell youmy unique story?
(21:45):
We do a lot of bringing thatexpertise up into our website.
We talk a lot about being theresearch destination and how can
we educate and how can we?
You know, we bring more videosor tech support or quick start
guides.
A lot of our investment isreally in not so much a
marketing strategy or tactic asmuch as like how do we just
provide value to you and sort ofinterrupt an assumption you
(22:08):
might otherwise have?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Just thinking about the entire journey of how
someone becomes a customer, whatdo they need even before and
after becoming a customer andimmersing your company into that
with?
All the content you provide.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
I think that's right.
I have this theory in retail,like where we transact
potentially becomes lessinteresting, but where we
research and where we discovernew products, I think is where a
lot of balance of power is.
For us, that's a pretty biginvestment that we continue to
make, even into the future.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Well, it's an industry where a lot of research
is done before making apurchase.
Very much so, that's right,thank you.
Anything about the future ofSweetwater?
Do you have any visions for thechallenges ahead, the changes
in technology We've got allkinds of things with AI coming
(23:07):
up and behavioral changes in howpeople purchase and how they
interact online?
Just general vision for thefuture.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
We very much think about how do we just stay true
to who we are and invest inthese relationships, these
existing customers millions ofthem and how do we just continue
to add more value than others?
That's the core, if you will,we think a lot about.
Then there are new markets thatwe're finding really great
(23:44):
growth in.
Band and orchestra instrumentslike K-12 is a new space for us.
Content creators, not justmusicians or music makers, but
now podcasting and streaming andso forth.
Huge market for us, used gearis something we've not done a
lot with.
I think we have growth areaslike that.
(24:04):
You mentioned artificialintelligence.
We actually think a lot ofdebate.
You probably can't do a podcastnow without ending with JNAI
somewhere in the conversation.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yeah, I know, I didn't even want to say it.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Hey, listen, in the music industry we actually are
pretty excited about it.
In an interesting way, I thinkit will actually for us, we
believe, lower the bar, if youwill, or ease the entry point
into making music.
Oh wow, this is fun.
Now maybe I move my way intoreal instruments and buying gear
(24:41):
.
We actually think it expandsour industry.
Then obviously, all theconventional ways that we think
it can help us in making ourpeople smarter and more
efficient.
I always say, being such ahuman relationship-based company
, I'm interested in AI thataugments our humans and not
(25:01):
replaces them.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, that's a really mature perspective.
I think a lot of the bestcompanies are taking that stance
on it.
I did like what you said aboutthat.
Music has a hurdle to get into.
When I took guitar lessons itwas three years Now.
After a year I could start tolearn stuff of my own.
(25:23):
But yeah, three years of guitarlessons gave me a good
foundation.
Not everyone has the I didn'tknow any better, so I was, I
think, 11 years old.
Now, if you tell me I challengeyou to learn the flute I know
how long it takes to learn Ialmost get like I don't want to
(25:44):
take on a new project.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, it's a concern.
It takes grit and it takesdetermination.
Generationally we may be movingto a little more instant
gratification kind of mindset.
I really do think AI and listen, other kind of apps and
software-based there's a lot ofmusic making that's moving into
more digital ways.
That excites us.
If that's a new entry point,then we think that's not just
(26:08):
great for our sales and business, but just as a society we just
think that's fantastic tounleash more creativity.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Another wave of music making growth.
I remember in kind of themid-2000s, although home audio
systems started to be $99, andyou're like I can actually start
recording at home for like acouple hundred dollars of
equipment.
That's right, and that was abig kind of a revolution in
(26:37):
music making.
Yeah, you got it.
We talked about this already.
Really, we hit on thetechnology side of how
Sweetwater is leveragingtechnology to your advantage.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, I think all the things we said.
I think the other thing that'stop of mind for us technology
would just be personalization,this business model.
We just understand ourcustomers at such a deeper level
, we have such a richunderstanding, and I think our
focus is on how do we use moreand more technology to, not as a
(27:15):
business tactic, but as likehow do you create more value for
that customer.
The more we can understand them, the more we can drop the right
moments in front of them,whether that's product
recommendations or even justcontent or education or
entertainment, and so I thinkthat's top of mind for us in our
technology roadmap.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Being able to personalize and treat everyone
like the individual uniquecustomers that they are.
That's right Now.
This is kind of a I'm going toask you to predict the future.
But do you see any biginnovations that might catch
e-commerce retailers off guard,or any in the industry, but
(27:53):
especially where you are,anything that you think would
kind of disrupt or catch othersoff guard?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, I think it's gen AI, so I can't use that as
my answer.
I think that listen.
The other thing, chase, I thinkis you know, we think a lot
about privacy, consumerprotection very important to our
heart.
We're a relationship basedcompany and so we work really
hard to build thoserelationships, get permission to
contact customers, and I thinkwe're seeing a lot of
(28:21):
legislation, we're seeing a lotof mindset evolving around here.
So one thing I guess I wouldencourage is don't be caught off
guard by that.
We are taking steps to say, hey, listen, this is we've been
doing it the right way for fourdecades, creating relationships,
and there's a lot of retailersthat are maybe getting surprised
(28:43):
by states that are closing someof those doors.
Cookies are crumbling, like howwill I reach my customers, and
so if you're not payingattention there, I think that's
one that we would lift up andencourage you.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Very important, kind of on the not something that
everyone thinks of, but it'ssomething that's near and dear
to most people is the dataprivacy.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Yeah, and our heart would be listen.
We believe in that.
Let's do it the right way.
We don't want to be creepieracross that line.
In the same vein, we have anincredible head start because we
really have been nurturingthose relationships for so many
years, and so there will be amoment where some will
accelerate some and decelerateother retailers.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Mike, catch you off guard on this one.
I'm looking for some new musicto listen to.
Any recommendations?
Oh boy.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
I can't answer Chase, because they're all customers
and we love all of our kids here, so I'm going to have to dodge
the question.
I'm sorry.
What's your normal playlist?
Where are you normally?
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Normal playlist is kind of in a little bit of like
indie folk.
You know kind of indie folksounds Sometimes I don't have
any names coming to me at thetop of my head.
I used to be really into likeI'd get a super fan of a
specific artist.
And now I've got kids, I've runa business and now I just hit
(30:08):
shuffle.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
I'm exactly there with you.
My favorite thing is, like Idon't know Spotify.
You just tell me and I discoverso many new things and I
actually love that.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Well, this has been fun.
Mike, thank you for coming on.
Great insights.
Loved learning about thecompany and your vision, and
thanks to everyone listening fortaking the time to listen to
today's episode.
If you found it valuable,please share, hit, subscribe,
connect with us on LinkedIn orfind us on your favorite podcast
(30:39):
platform.
Mike, thanks again for comingon.
It's been great.
Hey, I had a lot of fun, thankyou.
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