September 8, 2023 • 56 mins
Ever wondered how a hilarious misstep in placing a manual order could lead to some serious career development? Well, our guest Neil Saunders, Managing Director of Global Data Retail, did just that. Neil shares his journey through the retail industry, from his humble beginnings at John Lewis to his current role, and highlights a memorable ordering blunder that changed his perspective and fueled his passion for improving retail systems.
We've all been told the importance of honesty, but have you ever considered the power of speaking your opinion in the world of retail? Neil stresses the value of transparency and open dialogues, a philosophy that has led both to his personal growth and to advancements in the industry. Listen as we delve into the importance of understanding data for businesses and how storytelling plays a crucial role in data analysis.
What does the future hold for AI and technology in retail? We explore this intriguing topic, touching on the pros, cons, and the potential this tech holds to revolutionize the consumer experience. We even delve into the implications of Amazon One's palm recognition technology. Rounding off our discussion, we ponder on the importance of living in the present and how growing older impacts one's perspective. This insightful conversation is sure to provide you with a new lens to view the dynamic world of retail. Don't miss out!
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Connect with Neal on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neilretail/
RetailWire is the retail industry's premier source for news, analysis, and discussion. With a focus on the latest trends, technology, and consumer behavior, RetailWire provides a platform for industry experts and thought leaders to share their insights and perspectives. Whether you're a retailer, supplier, or service provider, RetailWire is your go-to destination for staying informed and ahead of the curve.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Retail Wire Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Retail Wire Podcast
.
I am your host, Brian Crum, andI am really excited for today's
episode.
We have another member of ourbrain trust with us today.
This person is well.
He comes from a long line inthe retail industry.
I tell you what I've seen himfeatured on a lot of different
(00:26):
news stations, a lot ofdifferent resources around video
, audio, everything.
This guy knows his way aroundthe retail space.
He is a visiting fellow at theUniversity of Surrey and is
currently the Managing Directorof Global Data Retail, which is
a retail research agency andconsulting firm focused on
(00:48):
retail and consumer behavior.
This guy's been with us here,retail Wire.
He's been a brain trust membersince around 2017.
I think that pretty much makeshim the expert on staff here.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcometo the show, neal Saunders.
How are you, sir?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Thanks very much for having me.
Yeah, I'm great.
Thank you, Brian.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I am doing very well.
Thanks for making time for ustoday, man.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Yeah, you're welcome.
I love the brain trust.
I love contributing everymorning reading what everyone
has to say.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
It's great to do more in-person stuff face-to-face,
absolutely yeah, and that's onething we're looking forward to
doing around here.
More is having theseconversations right being able
to.
I was telling you a little bitoffline here that this is why we
do the podcast is we wantpeople to know that not only are
you guys experts in the retailfield, but you have families,
(01:40):
you live in houses, you drivecars, just like everybody right.
That's a fun way that we cantake the approach to this man.
Again, just thanks for jumpingin.
So tell us a little bit aboutwho you are.
Where do you come from, what doyou do?
What makes Neil Saunders aprofessional that you are?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Well, as you say, it's good to see face-to-face
because it proves we're not AI.
I'm just putting these commentson.
We are all people.
So I am managing director ofglobal data.
So that is the primary role,the primary job that I have, and
in that role what I do isreally help our clients in the
(02:27):
retail field.
A lot of retailers, a lot ofpeople who supply into retail,
really just understand thesector, understand their place
in it, look forward to see whatmight be happening in the sector
so they can project things andultimately build better business
plans that they can grow marketshare or cut costs or become
more effective at servingcustomers, whatever their
(02:47):
objective is.
So that takes up a lot of mytime, but outside of that I do
quite a lot of non-retail stuff.
I do visit a lot of stores onthe weekends, as anyone who
follows me on Twitter will know,and that's kind of like a
Bustman's holiday because he'sdoing research whilst going to
the mall.
But outside of that, I do a lotof cycling.
(03:10):
I love cycling.
Every weekend I'm out on mybike, weather permitting.
When I say weather permitting,it's not that the weather is bad
, because I live mostly inArizona.
Sometimes it's far too hot togo cycling, so I have to confine
it to either the very earlymorning or the very late evening
, and I've lived in Arizonasince about 2018.
(03:34):
So I have climatized to theheat and I prefer the heat to
the rain, which we got a lot ofwhen I used to live in the UK,
so I'm actually fine with it.
But it's been very hot thisyear, which is why, at the
moment, we've escaped and cometo New Hampshire, which is why
it looks green outside.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I was going to say I don't see sand or brown behind
you, so that's a good thing toescape and get away to some
greenery.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Yes, there's no cacti either, which is a big
difference.
But yeah, it's really nice tohave that contrast, because
Arizona is a bit like it's aMartian landscape.
At least where I live furtherup north it's not, but around
Scottsdale it's very much thatkind of tan everything's sandy.
It's a beautiful, stunninglandscape, but when you come out
of it and come to somewherelike New Hampshire, I think it's
(04:25):
really nice because you see thecontrast and you're like wow,
isn't everything so green andlush?
So yeah, it's nice to switchbetween the two and, as I say,
at the moment it's super hot inArizona, so it's great to escape
that heat.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah, this summer has definitely gotten a little
crazy.
I know I've got a family outnear Flagstaff and so they have
definitely been feeling it morethis year and that heat is just.
It's crazy too, because correctme if I'm wrong it's a drier
heat out in Arizona, right?
So it's not quite as humid andeverything out there.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, oh for sure.
I mean, if it was humid I don'tthink I would want to live
there.
The humidity, like Florida,it's a killer with that kind of
heat.
We're lucky because it is verydry so you can go for a walk
outside and actually you don'treally get sweaty.
You'll get hot, okay, but itsounds quite unpleasant, but the
sweat literally just evaporatesso you actually remain quite
(05:20):
dry.
I think if it was swampy itwould just be terrible with that
heat, because sometimes we canget up to like 120, something
like that.
It's super, super hot with zero, zero humidity or very little
humidity.
Fine, you put some liquid inthere.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yeah, oh, I tell you, I understand that all too well
because I was actually.
I got to go to Mexico thissummer for a little getaway and
it was crazy, because not onlywas it 95 degrees, 98 degrees,
you know somewhere near 100.
And then suddenly I remembersitting there one evening,
(05:57):
looking out over, there was anisland a couple of miles off the
coast there we're on the northtip of Cancun and so you could
literally see this wall ofhumidity rolling through.
We thought it was rain.
No, it was just a gray cloud ofhumidity and it just rolled
across and you could feel thehumidity come up.
Everybody in the entirerestaurant starts sweating,
(06:17):
because it was an outdoorrestaurant, and we all just
start, you know, sweatingthrough our clothes and, okay,
all right.
Well, good news, we're inMexico.
So when you're on vacation.
It doesn't matter does it?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
When you're on vacation.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I think Nothing matters, so so okay, so now
you've got.
So you live in Arizona, you'recurrently up in New Hampshire.
You said so wife, kid, spouse,pets, what Tell us a little bit
about just your.
What's your family look like?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Sure.
So most of my family isactually in the UK, which is
where I'm from, so that's kindof nice because it means I can
go back there quite a lot andthey can come over here and
actually there's a lot of traveland it's nice for everyone to
experience the new things.
I do have some family here inthe US.
I have a partner, so that'squite nice.
(07:10):
An occasional pet, I think.
Unfortunately, the lifestylethat we have is very sort of
travel oriented and quite busy,so it's difficult to have a
permanent pet, but do have anoccasional pet, so that's quite
nice.
Dog, so I think that's the bestof both worlds.
No kids, I think, for the samereason as no permanent pet,
(07:34):
because it's very.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
So actually it doesn't necessarily relate to
that life, and that's okay,that's all right.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
But there's plenty of time for that, so we'll see
further down the line.
I'll never say never.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Absolutely.
Yeah, no, I had to kick my twodogs out of the office here,
otherwise they'd probably benosing me the entire time.
So that's very cool.
So tell us take us back to,kind of, the beginning of your
retail journey what got you intoretail?
Tell us a little bit aboutwhere your parents in it, where
you're around it growing up, orwas it just something that you
(08:07):
kind of had a fire lit up insideyou one day?
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Well, interesting, my parents weren't involved in it
at all.
Our family in its businessesand all of the professions it's
had, hasn't really ever hadanything to do with retail at
all.
But obviously as a child I wasdragged along shopping with my
parents when they would goshopping.
And I think back then, when Iwas still very, very young,
(08:35):
maybe like 10, 11, somethinglike that I was always
fascinated by retail.
I mean, I would go into asupermarket or go into a
department store, usually JohnLewis, which is a big department
store in the UK and I would beabsolutely fascinated by not
just what I saw but like theprocess I would think about how
(08:56):
did these goods get here?
Who chose to put these productshere?
How did they decide to lay thisstore out?
And obviously, being quite young, I didn't really have any
answers to this, but I was justabsolutely fascinated with, like
, the mechanics of how retail orthe shops worked.
And you know I always want tolook behind the scenes.
If there was kind of a you knowa stock room door propped open,
(09:19):
I'd always poking my headaround it.
My mom would probably bedragging me out, saying you're
not allowed to go in there.
But I was very curious and Ithink that really sparked off an
interest in retail.
I didn't really think about itmuch because as kids we don't
really think about careers.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
And when I was a kid, I actually wanted to be Prime
Minister of the UK, whichprobably tells you a lot.
I no longer would like thatrole at all.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I don't think any of us would like to be involved in
no no.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
No so I never sort of intended to get into retail.
But I suppose the next majormilestone was when I was at
university I did a degree ingeography.
Primarily it had elements ofeconomics and economic geography
in it and what I really likedabout that degree was there were
a lot of numbers and there werea lot of data, especially on
(10:07):
the economic side.
But I was absolutely fascinatedwith like, okay, the data is,
they're the end result, theymeasure what's happening and
there's a whole series of humandecisions and actions that
underpin those numerical data.
And I was very interested inthat side of things, like all
the behaviors that ended up withthose numbers.
(10:29):
And there were quite a fewelements on the degree course
that looked at things likeconsumption and there was
actually a very specific retailelement or component.
It looked at kind of thegeography of retail location and
how people would consume acrossdifferent geographies, how
retailers decided where to putstores, dealing a lot with GIS,
(10:49):
geographical information systemsand I absolutely loved that and
that's the area that I focusedon for my dissertation.
It's the area where I took mostcourses and I absolutely loved
it because it was that blend oflooking at the data but also
having that qualitative side ofreally understanding the human
behaviors, the psychologists ofconsumers, and so when I left
(11:12):
university I naturally lookedfor consumer and retail
companies and I actually went towork for John Lewis, the John
Lewis partnership, which is a UKretailer that owns John Lewis
department stores and waitrosesupermarkets.
So that's kind of how I firstgot into retail.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Man, that's so fascinating and you're right, I
think a lot of people don'trealize, they don't really think
about it, takes a specialperson to understand that a lot
of these items don't just showup in a store, right, and it's
not just accidental that it'splaced in a certain area.
So consumer behavior does playsuch this vital role and it's
(11:53):
funny how I think the averageperson probably walks into a
store and just says, oh, it'shere, that's it, that's the end
of the conversation for them.
But to be able to be so curiousabout it and go, hey, what does
it look like behind the scenes?
I remember the first time Iever got to see I was working on
a photo shoot and we got to bebehind the scenes where they
(12:18):
were producing some of theflower bouquets at a Walmart
store.
And so you think of, there's aflower display, sure, someone
actually put those together,right?
A lot of people don't think, oh, there's a florist, there's
someone behind the scenes thatactually created them, and I
think we've become so accustomedto that.
I think in a lot of our,specifically in America, I think
(12:40):
probably we've become soaccustomed to just seeing the
item as just a thing, right,it's just, it's there, and so we
don't necessarily think toodetailed into how it got there
or who put that there, and soyou know your fascination.
I definitely identify with thatvery well because I always
(13:01):
loved looking into the stockrooms.
I loved kind of pulling backthe curtain and kind of seeing
what's going on.
How did this become the realityhere?
So you started out there andthen you started out and, I'm
sorry, you said, john Lewis, isthat right?
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Yeah, john Lewis partnership, which owns the
department stores and has asupermarket business as well, so
it covers all of retail.
Really, it's the ideal retailerif you want to get your feet
wet and be in a lot of differentareas.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
So what were your first kind of experiences in
retail like?
Did you catch on very quickly?
Were there any fumbles that youwant to share as a laughable
moment or anything, or what wasthat like for you?
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Well, I loved it overall.
I mean, I was immersed in theenvironment, which was
fascinating to me, and I was nowable to go behind the curtain,
as you put it, and see howeverything worked, and so it was
absolutely wonderful to do that.
And because it was straight outof university, it was a
training scheme, so we were ableto do absolutely everything,
(14:06):
from serving on the shop floorto going out on the delivery
vans with the drivers deliveringorders, to doing proper
research work and developmentwork, which was kind of like the
primary role of it.
So I absolutely loved thatbecause you got to see
everything and it's reallycritical because you can make a
decision in an office based onsome data and what you think is
(14:27):
right.
But you'd speak to like driversgoing out on the vans.
They go, yeah, well, theychanged this, and you know what.
It just doesn't work becausethe schedule now is wrong and
you would pick on all of thesenuances.
So I really liked that.
It wasn't problem free, as Ithink no job is.
I was for a time working in theelectronics department and I was
(14:50):
put in charge of a category andthe category was electronic
accessories.
So it had things likeheadphones in their batteries,
all the types of littleelectronics.
You get cables and leads, andone of the things I had
responsibility for was makingsure that the levels of stock
(15:10):
were correct, and most time itwould replenish automatically,
but you could manually overrideit if you needed to, because you
could say well, it's not enough.
We, you know, there's somethingcoming up like a big event
where we think people will buymore television cables or
whatever.
And I went onto the system onthe computers and placed an
order for batteries and I wasnot really thinking, and I was
(15:35):
thinking like it was rathernumbers.
I was thinking the numbers ofunits, I was thinking it was
like pounds and pens.
So I put two extra zeros on theend to count for the pens when
it was units.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
So rather than change things a bit.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Yeah, rather than kind of, I think it was 20, I
was supposed to order ratherthan 20 of these these things
turning up, I had 2000.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
That's exciting.
So what did the, what did theboss say to that one?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Well, I kind of like was the first reaction was like
oh, how can I like cover this up?
And these things went throughquickly to remind that maybe I
could just buy them all by allthe stock and I was like, no,
this is crazy, it's going tocost a fortune.
So I just fast up and said,look, I'm really sorry I've done
this.
And he just laughed and said,look, it's not the first time
(16:28):
it's happened.
He said, actually it's a goodlesson because it's fine, we can
just send them back to thewarehouse.
And he showed me what you'redoing the computer just to do a
return.
Yeah, luckily it was.
I mean, it's the relativelysmall item so it didn't like
fill up the whole department.
But there are also things thatare quite common a garden, I
(16:49):
mean.
They probably have, you know,millions of them in stock for
the whole group.
So it didn't deprive anyoneelse of them.
So it was quite fortunate.
But I I think I went super redat the time and was just
extremely embarrassed and Inever made that mistake again,
I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
You know, I think we've all had those moments,
especially as you're gettingstarted in a certain area.
It's bound to happen.
The best part is having thatleader that can just say hey
look, it's okay, we're going tobe all right, we'll move forward
through this.
And here's, here's how youlearn through this.
You know the the fail fast,fail forward kind of approach,
right, so you have to learn fromit and move on.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
That's right, and they did improve the systems
they then put in I don't thinkit was just because of me, I
think it probably happened a lotthey put in place a failsafe
eventually where where you didthese manual orders, if it was X
percent above, kind of like theaverage daily sales value, it
would like up and say are yousure you want this money?
So unfortunately just didn'thave that when I made the
(17:48):
mistake.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, that's wise.
I mean, even you know, thinkingof that from an ordering
standpoint, it's.
It's funny how that was not thestandard until you and several
others had, you know, made thatmistake enough that they said,
oh yeah, this is something wereally need to pay attention to.
You know, I think of there's a,there's an app that I use
(18:09):
occasionally, whenever I'm atthe gym, right, whenever I'm
working out, and it's funnybecause it'll say, you know,
like, do 20 of these or what,you know, 20 curls or something,
and if you accidentally hit anextra zero, it will pop up and
say are you sure that's 400percent above what you said or
what it was recommended for you,or something?
And it's oh yeah, I hit anextra digit in there somewhere,
(18:32):
so it's good to have those failsafes in there.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Yeah, it is, and I think the systems to be fair in
my defense and everyone else'sdefense who made this mistake
they were extraordinarilyantiquated.
I think they're a lot betternow.
They certainly weren't asmodern as they should have been.
They worked, but they oftenwork by the skin of their teeth
and one of the things I workedon at the time was improving
(18:56):
those systems and looking how,how you could improve both the
user interface of the systemsbut also the reporting back,
because one of the things Iliked most about that job was
seeing the reports at the end ofthe day, the end of the week,
the end of the month, like howmany units of soul?
And you could.
You could look at everything.
You could look at individualproducts, you could compare
yourself to other branches, youcould look at the group total of
(19:18):
these things and I absolutelyloved all this data.
But it used to come out in themost horrible way on like
printed sheets and it was allvery, very sort of undigestible
and I think you could downloadinto spreadsheets and things.
But one of the things that weworked on was like how can you
improve that visually so youcould automatically look at how
(19:39):
you ranked in a chart comparedto other branches, so it
actually became a lot moreuseful.
So there was a lot of greatstuff with the systems that
happened and has happened sinceI left.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, so, okay.
So I just I'm all I can sayhere and just think of like 2000
batteries or whatever coming inand you're like, oh no, no, we
can't do this, but no, I thinkthat's.
It's really cool to hear yourjourney.
So you came in, you came inthrough through John Lewis, and
(20:11):
then where did you kind of movefrom there?
What?
What was your next step like?
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Well, the next step was to work for a company called
Verdig Research, whicheventually became a company
called Data Monitor, and thatwas really a research and
analysis firm and doingconsulting as well off the back
of the research and analysis,and I worked in the retail part
of that business and sobasically it was doing what I'd
(20:39):
been doing at John Lewis, but itwas doing it for lots of
different clients on a muchwider range of projects.
And that's one of the reasonswhy I left John Lewis, because,
as much as I love the businessand I love the whole business
model of the John Lewis becauseit's a partnership that's owned
by the staff I wanted thechallenge of doing a much
greater variety of work acrossdifferent sectors, different
(20:59):
retailers and really getting tounderstand lots of different
businesses.
And Verdig and then DataMonitor provided me with that
opportunity.
And that was a wonderful lessonbecause it just expanded my
whole knowledge of retail.
It expanded my knowledge ofdifferent types of business, the
(21:20):
different types of challenges,business-faced, different
solutions that could be put inplace, all sorts of different
projects, and we had data comingin from all over the place.
I mean we had consumer researchdata, we had retailer panel
data, we had receipt data, wehad our own analysis, we had
forecasters, we had economicdata and it was just like a kid
(21:42):
in a candy shop basically, myeyes just lit up all these
different data that you coulduse on the project.
So I really, really enjoyedthat job.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Well, and when you have that mindset of
understanding that, like you'resaying, the data's there, but
unless you can interpret it it'scumbersome, right.
And so to have someone like youwho can go in and see the data
and go, oh well, this is thestory it's telling, then that
makes it a lot more accessiblefor not only the leadership but
(22:16):
then also putting it back to thestores, putting it back to the
consumers, and I would imaginethat probably just made it a lot
more enjoyable all around,right.
I mean, everybody gets to seehey, I don't have to deal with
the data, but you can tell methe story from it.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Oh, absolutely, and I think that's the biggest lesson
really, in a way, that Ilearned from being in that kind
of environment.
It's that the data areinteresting but they have to do
something.
And to do something you have toreally analyze them thoroughly,
extract what's useful and thentell the story out to them, get
the insight out to them thatallows you to go and do
(22:56):
something on the ground thatmakes material difference to the
business.
And I think that still holdstrue today.
I mean, you often see a lot ofdata that float around in the
media, in reports and elsewhere,and there's a big so what
factor to it?
It's like, well, this is kindof interesting, but it's like so
what?
What does it mean?
And I think you always have tonail things through to an
(23:19):
ultimate conclusion.
Sometimes it's difficult,sometimes the data don't show
much, and that's fine.
You can say they don't showmuch, but very often you have to
dig deep and try and tessellatethings and put things together
so that you come out with astory that's very informative
and easy to grasp.
And that's that's reallyimportant, because I think in
retail, as in every industry,some folks are very numeric.
(23:41):
I mean, I love looking at a bigspreadsheet of data, but you
put that in front of a lot ofpeople and they're like I don't
look at numbers, I don't likenumbers, they're afraid of
numbers Right yeah.
So you have to tell them thestory or visualize it.
And one of the interestingthings there is we we still do
do a lot of work for IKEA.
They're one of our biggestclients.
But back then IKEA was also oneof our clients in the early
(24:03):
days and we used to do a kind ofquarterly presentation to them.
We used to go and present tothe board of the UK IKEA and we
used to present what we thoughtwas going on the market, what we
thought of them.
We used to monitor all sorts ofthings like pricing and we used
to make it really visual andexciting.
And one day the then managingdirector of IKEA UK said you
(24:24):
know, he said we love your data,we love your insights, we love
all the consulting work you dofor us, but you know what we
think.
Actually you should come in andgive us lessons on how to
present data and how to tellstories, because you do that
really well.
And that was like wow, that's areally nice compliment.
It's like no one has ever saidthat to us before.
But I think that really drummedhome to myself and my
(24:44):
colleagues who are presentingLike yeah, like how you tell the
story, how you show the data issometimes just as important as
the data itself, and I thinkthat's one of the greatest sort
of come downs or the greatestshame of data sometimes is
people sometimes have great data, they just display it in an
awful way and it's like you, itjust falls on stony ground and
(25:07):
it's.
It's such a shame because thatstorytelling is.
We like stories, we're humansand it's very important, I think
, with data.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that it's.
That is so true because we dolove story, we do love
understanding that, and so it'snot usually that people have no
interest in the story, it's thatif the story is not consumable
by them in a way that they, thatthey can understand, well then
it's like you said, it just kindof falls on stony ground, it
(25:36):
just kind of goes over, itdoesn't take root, you're not
really going to, you know,they're not going to grasp it,
they're not going to say, oh, Iwant more of that, because they
just don't understand it.
It's not necessarily a good orbad data situation, right, it's
just it's in that presentation.
So now, that's a hugecompliment.
And you know, it's funny becauseone of the one of the topics I
(25:59):
wanted to touch on too was I'veseen, like I said, I've seen you
featured on a lot of differentnews resources, and you know,
one of my questions that I hadwas why do you think that is?
But I mean, obviously it'sbecause of the storytelling,
right, like it's because you'reable to take something that
could be to the broad masses,something that is so detailed,
(26:21):
right, and so you have a lot ofdifferent areas and angles to it
.
What's that been like for you,I guess, being able to be that
figure that gets out and speaksall these different news
channels and everything aboutthe data of what's going on in
retail.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Well, I think for me I mean, I don't really look at
the coverage I think our pressteam monitors that but for me,
to be honest, I just liketalking about retail.
I mean, it's quite simple.
So when a journalist calls upor gets in touch, I'm always
really happy to chat to thembecause they're kind of digging
as well.
They want the story what's theshowing, where is it going,
(27:00):
what's the truth behind this?
And I like that.
It's very investigative and soI love talking to them and I
think that's very helpful.
And being able to tell thestory and be clear about the
data is very important as well.
But I think the other trick toit if there are tricks to it is
to be honest and not be afraidto give opinions.
And that's something that itcomes over time, because when I
(27:24):
first started I wouldn't reallygive opinions.
I wasn't confident enough.
I don't think I had theexperience, I don't think I
earned the right to giveopinions on things.
I was still learning.
But over time I have learned alot, as we all do as we go
through our careers, and I nowwill give opinions that I'm not
afraid to give opinions onthings, even if they're very
(27:44):
blunt opinions.
They are opinions.
People are free to agree ordisagree.
But I tell it like it isbecause I don't really see the
point to be honest in life, andespecially not in research, of
not telling the truth.
You have to be balanced, youhave to be fair, but you should
also tell it like it is.
You have to speak the truth ofwhat you see and I think one of
(28:06):
the reasons genus like it isbecause, to be quite honest and
I know why they do it and Iwould do the same if I was in
that position a lot of verysenior management in retail
they'll spin their story thatthey have to.
They have to say what they thinkthe market wants to hear.
They have to put a positivegloss on things.
But sometimes what they'resaying is not the reality on the
ground and we all know it's notthe reality on the ground.
(28:28):
So it's very important to havesomeone saying well, hang on a
minute, you're saying this ishappening, but I'm not seeing it
.
It's not coming through in thedata, it's not coming through on
the shop floor, it's not comingthrough in terms of what your
colleagues are saying on theshop floor.
So you have to sort of hold theindustry to account, as it were,
and I think you do a fairlygood job of that, not just
(28:49):
myself, but my colleagues aswell, and we have all sort of
learned over time to beopinionated and opinion-led
based on fact, obviously,absolutely, and it's something
we drill into our new recruits.
We say to them look, when youhave the confidence, don't be
(29:09):
afraid to say what you think,especially internally to us.
Always speak as you thinksomething is, and we can have
better dialogues that way.
That's how we improve things,that's how we reach the truth of
things.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think one thing that you justkind of inspired in my thoughts
there were be willing to speakyour opinion.
As long as it's rooted in fact,as long as it's rooted in what
you truly believe to understand,then that's great.
I think the only thing I mightadd to that would be and be open
to changing your mind if you'reproven otherwise.
(29:44):
That's where I think a lot ofus get stuck is going hey, I can
be opinionated and then well,I'll just agree to disagree.
But whenever you're opinionatedbut also willing to learn and
continue to grow, I think that'sphenomenal.
I think that's where, likeexactly to your point, I think a
lot of people are afraid to beopinionated.
(30:04):
They're afraid to speak out thetruth because it might offend
somebody, it might bothersomebody or it might contradict
someone else's opinion.
But if your opinion is firmlyrooted and you actually have
good data to back it up, wellthen by all means speak your
opinion and have an educatedconversation.
I think that's really reallywise for anyone, not just in the
(30:25):
retail industry but in life.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Yeah, and I think that's what's great about the
Brain Trust as well, because Ithink the Brain Trust does have
a lot of people who will shareopinions very openly and
sometimes people will disagreealways very politely, I have to
say.
But it's really interesting toread through those comments
because you see slightlydifferent perspectives and, as
you say, if you're open,sometimes it does shift your
(30:48):
opinion slightly and you'll say,yeah, actually you know what?
I hadn't looked at that anglebefore.
That's really interesting andit sort of makes your opinion
more nuanced and balanced andit's a great forum for that
discussion, I think, becauseeveryone has such good
experience, they're all veryopen to sharing and it's a very
safe forum.
I don't think people feelafraid to share their opinions.
(31:09):
But also it makes it morevaluable for the reader, because
you don't want to read 20comments saying exactly the same
thing.
You also don't want to readcomments that just basically
restate the facts.
It's dull, it's like well, Iknew that already.
What you want is something thatmakes you think and you sort of
sit up and say, oh, and this isinteresting because this
actually is very much the ethosof the John Lewis partnership
(31:31):
where I started.
John Lewis is a mutually ownedcooperative.
It's owned by the people whowork there.
Any profit after investments isdivided up and paid out as a
bonus to all of the staff.
Everyone gets the samepercentage of their salary as
the bonus.
But one of the things that'senshrined in the Constitution of
John Lewis is that it is yourbusiness, as in the people who
(31:55):
work there, and it's yourabsolute right to speak out to
say what you think.
And people are allowed to writeinto the house newspaper, the
Gazette and some of the letters.
When I was there they used tobe anonymous.
I'm not sure they are anymore,but they used to be anonymous
and people used to givethemselves funny names.
They were quite peppery.
I mean, some people used to bereally blunt brutally blunt
(32:17):
about criticism of seniormanagement and senior management
have to answer in the repliesto the letters in the magazine
that came out weekly.
It was refreshing.
It was actually like, well, itcan be painful, but it's the
right thing to do, because theseare the people that work there.
They have a right to have thissay, and actually some great
ideas come from people on theshop floor, people who are out
(32:39):
in the vans, people in thewarehouses, and it was that
culture of listening, and Ithink that that probably is one
of the areas that I get where Iam today in terms of being not
afraid to share opinions andtrying to be open.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yeah, would you say that's probably one of the
bigger things you've learnedabout yourself through this
journey, or kind of what hasbeen your finding about who you
are and how you operate.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
I think, yes, I think definitely building confidence
to have opinions and use data totake it to the next level so
you can be very descriptive andtake it forward into having that
point of view.
I've definitely learned that.
Storytelling is another thingthat I've learned.
I think the other thing thatI've learned is which is not
(33:28):
really to do with retail, Ithink it's just a live lesson is
that almost every problem youcome across is solvable.
Yeah, I am definitely someonewho is on the side of perfection
and I used to get not upset butvery anxious, I think, when
things weren't right, either inthe work I was doing or
(33:49):
sometimes like in personal lifeor at home as well.
Yeah, and I still retain thatperfectionist streak.
For example, if I'm doing apresentation, everything has to
be aligned properly and you knowthe fonts have to be be right.
It drives me mad when someonesends me something that's like
can you not see this?
It's just like misaligned.
So I'm very structured likethat.
But I think I've learned thatyou know every problem that you
(34:11):
come across in work or an issuelike ordering those too many
batteries.
It's really not the end of theworld.
You can solve it and get aroundit.
You just have to be tenaciousabout it and logical about it.
So now I would say I'm a lotmore relaxed as a person and a
lot more relaxed in my careerthan perhaps I was at the start,
and that's been a good lessonfor me.
(34:33):
I probably can go a bit furtherin that direction.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
And you know, I think that that speaks a lot to you
know your growth and kind ofjust your own journey there.
Because that is one thing whereit's okay it's completely okay
to want things to be right andcorrect and true, but then also
you have to remember there'sthat human element to anything
right, Just like your managerdid, whenever there was the one
(35:02):
ordering fumble, they stillremembered you're a person right
.
They still remembered, oh,there's a human here involved,
and so, yeah, let's learn, let'smove forward from it.
You know, and so you know.
I just think that's importantfor everybody as we just
continue to grow and I think,speaking directly about retail
(35:22):
right now, there are so manyareas of retail that are being
changed around.
Some of them are going throughbig growth, some of them are
going through some shrinkingright, and so there's some
shifts.
Unfortunately, there's beensome companies recently that
they've seen their last days,and then there's other companies
that are just taking off anddifferent brands and different
(35:42):
technologies that are kind ofemerging.
Now, thinking of retail andkind of the current state that
it's in, what are you excitedfor right now?
What do you see like wheneveryou read something about?
You know, read about a specifictopic or anything.
What is something that justreally gets you excited.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Well, I'm very excited to see how people
continue to integrate technology.
I think this is one of thegreat challenges and great
opportunities, because we'regetting to a stage in technology
now where there's so manyquestions around AI, there's so
many questions around automation.
I think there's some reallycreative ways that we can apply
this to retail and to make thesector better for workers and
(36:26):
make it ultimately better forconsumers.
I think we're still in the veryembryonic days.
It's a bit like the early daysof computers, before they came
around.
When things started tocomputerize, you would have a
lot of different attempts toexperiment and try different
things.
I think we're in that stagewith AI now.
(36:47):
I think a lot of people aretesting it.
They're looking at how it canbe deployed in the business.
No one has real answers to it.
Of course, there'll be multiplestrategies that work for
different retailers.
I think it's really exciting tosee how different people are
deploying it, how differentpeople are viewing it as a
solution for retail.
I think in 10 years' time,we'll probably be still trying
(37:09):
out a lot of things.
It'll be fascinating to lookback and see that journey and
how we've evolved to the statethat we're in, because I think,
fundamentally, retail will bethe same.
I think how it works in a lotof senses could be very
different for the consumer andfor the people who work in
retail, but for better and worse.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, absolutely no.
I agree with that completely.
I think that's been one of thethings that I've continued to
see and say as well is retail,at the end of the day, is all
about person-to-personinteraction.
The vehicle, kind of like whatyou're talking about the way
that it happens might bedifferent over time, but in the
end it's still aperson-to-person interaction,
(37:51):
end-to-end.
So that's really good to see.
And, thinking of technology andeverything, I want to get your
hot take on this one.
This will date the episode.
That's okay, whatever.
But here's my question.
So I've been seeing a lot aboutAmazon One lately with their
little wave your palm and it'sgot the palm recognition
(38:12):
technology to it.
What's just your hot take on it?
What's just your thoughts aboutit and technology of that type
that, when it comes to securityand when it comes to that unique
application of it, well, Ithink the technology itself is
absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
I mean it's absolutely amazing, when you
think about it, that thistechnology could be put in place
.
I mean, if I saw thistechnology when I was a child,
it would be a Harry Potter typething.
It'd be like wow, this is likehow does this work?
How does this happen?
I think we've become a bit morejaded to it now because we see
so many technological things,but it still is amazing
technology.
I think it does have anapplication.
(38:49):
I mean, look, it does save abit of time if you can wave your
palm.
It is technically more securethan other methods.
I'm not quite sure it saves somuch time and is that much more
secure than something like ApplePay, but it's definitely better
than paying by card.
So I think it does have anapplication.
I think the two issues with itare, first of all, the obvious
issue that some people don'tlike it.
They think it gives up too muchprivacy.
(39:11):
It's biometric data to acertain extent and we have to
address those concerns.
They're very reasonableconcerns and I think it is a
barrier to adoption.
I mean, amazon is not sayingthat everyone has to use this.
It's optional still, so I cantake it or leave it, which is
the right way to approach it,but I don't think everyone likes
it.
The other thing is, I liketechnology.
(39:32):
I like technology that makesthings simpler, that makes
things more seamless and takesout friction, but honestly, it's
not a game changer.
It's a bit like the Amazon Gostores.
They are fantastic in terms ofwhat they do and Amazon has led
the way in building that type oftechnology.
But as far as the customer'sconcerned, does it make a
difference?
(39:52):
No, not really.
It doesn't make you go to thatstore over another store.
What makes you go to the storeis all emotional.
It's the quality of the food,the ambiance, the customer
service you get, because youlike the brands there, because
the prices are really good,because it's close to you.
It's emotional decisions thatoften drive where you shop, and
I think that's.
If I had one criticism ofAmazon, it's that sometimes they
(40:15):
are very technical and they'reabsolutely brilliant at being
technical.
They're not always quite sogood at that emotional side, but
that's OK.
I mean that shows why they'renot really a threat that some
people make them out to be.
They have weaknesses as well asadvantages, as every retailer
does.
So that's kind of where I standon that type of technology.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Yeah, I think it's fascinating.
I think it's going to be reallycool to see where I mean, we're
recording this in 2023,.
I'm excited to see where we'reat in 2025.
Two years down the road we'regoing to have tons of different
applications, I think, betweenthis and AI and everything else
we're doing.
So that'll be fun.
(40:57):
And are there any brands I knowyou mentioned, like Amazon just
now, but are there any brandsor anything that you're kind of
really paying extra closeattention to right now and just
kind of watching them lead theway?
Or maybe you have somehesitations about them or
anything?
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Well, I think I mean I watch all the brands really.
I mean it's a bit of an issuebecause there's so many to watch
, as you know.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Yeah, it seems like every day there's like a
thousand more right so oh yeah,it's incredible.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
I mean it's difficult to keep up with it, especially
when it gets into earning season.
Everyone's putting out resultsat the same time.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Oh yeah.
And we're about to go we triedto look through all the press
releases on everything and wetry to sort through all that.
And it seems like every day,there's like 57 different press
releases.
It's about such and suchcompany releases quarterly
earnings and we're going.
Ok, this is nice.
Unfortunately, I don't needthis for my application right
(41:50):
now, but we'll keep that in mind, thank you.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Yeah, it's like drinking from a fire hose
there's too much stuff it is,but it says what I'm keeping an
eye on.
I think Gap I'm keeping a closeeye on because obviously
there's just been a change inleadership and the new
leadership incoming seems tohave very good skills and
talents and I'm hoping that itis going to mark the start of a
(42:14):
proper turnaround at Gap,because the company has had so
many false starts and I thinkit's a great shame.
Gap was a pioneer and it'sstill a big company in a lot of
ways, but the core Gap brand haslost a lot of its credibility.
It doesn't really know who itscore customer is.
And I like turnarounds.
I always and people say thissometimes on the retail why like
(42:34):
, oh, you can't turn them around.
I always hate that because it'slike I honestly believe
anything can be turned aroundwith enough F and application.
Whether it's worth turningaround is another question, but
I think humans are veryinnovative and we can do most of
the stuff we put our mind to,and I'd love to see Gap
implement a turnaround and startdoing better and I feel more
(42:56):
optimistic with the leadershipcoming in than I've felt in a
while, whether they succeed ornot.
I mean, it remains to be seen,but it's going to be fascinating
to watch and I really wish themluck and hope they start to
make those changes.
So I'm keeping a close eye onthat Amazon.
I'm keeping a very close eye onAmazon because I think they're
(43:18):
at a bit of a crossroads at themoment.
They're tremendously successful, but they're trying to make
better inroads to grocery andthey're putting in a lot of work
there.
They're also very mature in alot of markets and we've got a
new lot of upstarts like Sheehanand Timu, and I'm really
interested to see the responseto that.
And I'm also keeping a close eyeon the regulatory side as well.
(43:41):
That's a side that reallyworries me for the Amazon
business and what happens there.
I don't think that a lot of thecriticisms that are levied at
Amazon are particularly fair orreasonable, but nevertheless
there is this legislative threat, and it's unfortunately a
threat that is very difficult todeal with, because when you
(44:04):
have an issue like yourcustomers don't like you, or
your customers aren't shoppingwith you, you can remedy it and
change it and you can do itpretty quickly.
I think with legal things andregulatory things, it's a lot
more difficult to influence andhave control over them, so I'm
watching that very closely aswell.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah, I think it will definitely be interesting to
see kind of going back to myother statement of where we're
at with Amazon in two years,because I think that you're
right, we are at a crossroads.
We are at a point where there'sgoing to be some big things
that come down the pipeline thatthey may or may not even have
control over, but it's going toimpact them in such a way that
(44:43):
it could shift their businessmodel a little bit.
So I'm excited to see wherethat goes.
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
I was going to say, yeah, it's going to be very,
very interesting to see.
And I think that's one of thegreat things about retail,
because if we go back 10, 15, 20years, the story was all about
Walmart and how Walmart wastaking over the world.
Now the story has been aboutAmazon and now the story is
shifting again and it's startingto be like oh, what about
(45:14):
Sheehan and Teemu and what arethey doing?
And I think that's one of thegreat things.
Retail is very it's a very openplaying field and in some sense
it's a very level playing fieldand you can get people coming
into the industry and disruptingit in a way that you just don't
get, I think, in some of thebig industrial type sectors,
because the barriers to entry inthose sectors are so high.
(45:38):
Retail has comparatively lowbarriers to entry and that's why
it's so fascinating, becauseyou have this constant change.
But also, as well as the bigpledge, you've got a whole bunch
of small independent stores whocollectively take billions of
dollars in terms of sales andthey innovate and push things
(45:59):
forward as well.
So it's a sector that's inconstant flux, constant change
and, as you know, it keeps usall on our toes, which I think
is a really, really good thing,and it keeps all the retailers
on their toes as well, becauseif you stop paying attention for
a second, you can start to fail, and, as you mentioned, we've
seen that Retailers do fail onquite a regular basis Big
(46:21):
retailers like Bed, bath andBeyond.
They fail because they don't dothe right things, and that
means that the sector is onethat you've got to really be
alert in and you've got toconstantly evolve, constantly
change up what you do, and that,yeah, it's stressful, but it's
also great fun as well.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Well, and you do have to begin to bring it back to
your core area of consumerbehavior and understanding those
metrics.
I think that's one of the areaswhere, again, bed Bath and
Beyond they're out of here nowand so, watching them, I feel
like they kind of landed.
They were kind of like the jockin high school, right, they
(47:01):
were maybe the footballquarterback, the captain, the
team or something, and they hadtheir one-trick pony.
That was what they ran on,right.
And I think, just speaking frommy understanding from the
consumer side, it looked likethey were banking so heavily on
everybody coming in for their20% off coupons and the big
banners, the sales and oh,there's big flashy numbers over
(47:25):
here.
But ultimately, every time Ikept walking into a Bed Bath and
Beyond store before, it wasalways I would walk in with
hopes of finding a wonderfulitem and immediately upon
walking through the doors Iwould just feel completely
overwhelmed because everythingjust looked muddied, everything
(47:45):
looked very kind of just.
I don't know I'm not going tobash the floor mod person
because they had their job to do, but there was a time when
everything stood out really welland then, I think over the last
10 years, eight years,something like that.
It just felt like the floormods were laid out in such a way
that nothing really made senseat least, and so it was kind of
(48:09):
harder to shop as a consumer, togo through and find certain
things I was looking for, andthey had lots of trinkets, but
then whenever it came to thathigher end product that I was
actually looking for, you wouldfind it occasionally spread out,
but it wasn't the featureanymore.
So, yeah, we'll see whathappens now in the next few
(48:31):
years of retail.
It's going to be a wild ride, Iknow that.
So, looking back as we kind ofwrap up here, if you could go
back in time this is why I loveto end every episode with this
but if you could go back in timeto when you were just getting
started on your own retailjourney, understanding yourself
better now than you ever havebefore, what would you go back
(48:54):
and tell yourself?
Is there something that youwould change, or is there
something you would encourageyourself more in or try to
dissuade yourself from in anyway?
Speaker 3 (49:05):
It's a really great question and I didn't really
prepare it, even though I knowyou asked this question For
podcasts.
I think, honestly, I would tellmyself to enjoy the ride,
because I do enjoy the ride verymuch now.
I think when I was younger, Iwas a lot more serious than I am
(49:26):
now.
I was a lot more sort ofuptight and concerned about
things already mentioned, likeseeing things as a problem and
not necessarily understandingthat everything can be solved
ultimately, and whilst I thinkyou should take life and work
very seriously, you also have toget the most out of it and you
have to enjoy it and you have tonot take things too seriously.
(49:49):
I think that's what I wouldtell myself.
I think I would probably haveenjoyed my.
I did enjoy my younger days.
It's not that they werehorribly times, but I think I
was just a lot more intense backthen and I think I didn't sort
of almost like pause enough justto savor everything and to
(50:10):
enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
And it was really the moment that you were in.
While you were in it.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
Yeah, I think I was always dashing on to the next
thing.
It was like, oh, I need to dothis, I need to do this, I need
to do this.
And there's still an element ofthat in me.
I'm still quite an impatientperson and I think all traits
have positives and negatives,and so in some ways I don't want
to change things because I kindof like aspects of traits and
dislike other aspects.
But I definitely now am a lotmellower and I do savor things a
(50:40):
lot more.
I really just enjoy theexperience of work or personal
life or whatever I'm doing, andthat's something I would have
told myself.
But the problem is I could goback, but I absolutely wouldn't
have taken any notice whatsoever.
I would have probably said whatdo you know?
Even though you're from thefuture and you're me, you know
nothing.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
I'll continue to do that.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
Yeah, exactly, I think that's a good thing about
life.
I think over time it's likesediment it builds up, you get
the experiences and hopefullyyou become a more rounded and a
better person in all aspects.
And yeah, I'll continue tostrive for that.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
Good.
I think that's a great reminderfor everybody here.
Enjoy the time you're in, justbe in the moment.
The easier way of saying thatwould be live while you're alive
, right.
Just act like you're able toenjoy it.
Speaker 3 (51:34):
Exactly.
I'd be grateful for every daythat you've got, because it's a
very cliched adage, but youdon't know when it will be the
last.
And it's there for the taking,and it's there for the
experiencing.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
I have a friend of mine who he actually has a.
He's got an app that willoccasionally go off random times
throughout his day and I thinkhe has it set four or five times
a day and it just says reminder, one day you're going to die,
or it'll say something like that.
And he's like some people willlook at this.
(52:10):
He goes I got dark humor, buthe goes some people look at this
as a negative way of like oh mygoodness, yeah, why would I
ever want to be reminded of that?
And he goes to me it's justthat reminder to live and he's
like one day you will die.
So right now that's not thatday, so let's live.
Speaker 3 (52:30):
Exactly.
I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Well, neil, thank you so much.
If people want to learn moreabout you, I would imagine they
can follow you on LinkedIn.
Is that probably the best place, or is there a different
website or any way that they cankind of follow along on the
journey of Neil?
Speaker 3 (52:45):
Sure, If people want to follow along on the journey
of Neil, LinkedIn is a goodplace.
Twitter is also very good.
I do lots of daily news updateson Twitter.
I try to share all the retailnews I come across.
And also on the weekends, as Imentioned, I will often go out
into the mall.
So you can see my trips toretailers, especially Macy's,
and some people have said it'svery enjoyable.
(53:06):
I'm not quite sure why.
I'm quite sarcastic about whatI see on the shop floor.
I often try to pull out thingsthat don't look so good.
People engage much more withthat kind of content than saying
, oh look, this is a wonderfuldisplay.
So if you want to see what I'mup to in the mall, Twitter is
the place and Neil retail, orone word, is the handle.
Oh, it's not Twitter anymoreanyway, is it?
(53:26):
It's X?
Speaker 2 (53:27):
I think it's X.
Now right, no, no, no, no, ohgoodness, yeah, that's a little
different podcast for anotherepisode there.
So it is Well, I will make sureand put your LinkedIn and your
Twitter handle down in thedescription of this episode so
people can follow along there.
By the way, you did get mepaying a lot more attention to
(53:50):
stores like Macy's and Dillard'swhenever I go in and I will say
I was in a Dillard's the otherday, this is probably two weeks
ago, three weeks ago and the onehere in Northwest Arkansas
specifically is very well-kept.
They take great care of it here, so I thought it was
merchandise well.
The people actually were veryattentive, so that was good.
Speaker 3 (54:11):
It's funny.
I agree with that because wehave the claim to fame of
Scottsdale.
Well, one of the claims of fameis we have the biggest Dillards
in the world in ScottsdaleRussian Square.
I don't know how I found thisfact out, but it is true.
It's somewhere on the Dillard'swebsite buried away and it is
an enormous store.
It's cavernous, it's probablyfar too big, to be honest, for
what they need, but I have tosay it's kind of old-fashioned
(54:35):
but it's nice.
It's like retail used to be andthe founding family are still
running it and you can see theseold-fashioned retail standards
and disciplines and customerservice.
And Dillards have done reallywell over the past few years and
I'm really pleased with thatbecause I think they do make an
effort and I honestly think theydeserve to do well because of
(54:56):
all the department stores in theUS, dillards I think it really
tries and it doesn't necessarilyget everything right, but they
make the effort and it's nice tosee people who make the effort
winning.
So yeah, that's great that youfound the same thing.
We're aligned.
Speaker 2 (55:11):
I've been following you on Twitter and I'm just like
, yeah, no, this is a very realexperience.
So I have definitely found ituseful and enjoyable and
definitely entertaining for metoo.
So, anyway, that's good, allright.
Well, thank you so much, neil,for stopping by.
I really appreciate you takingtime today.
If this is your first timelistening to the Retail Wire
(55:31):
Podcast, be sure and hit thatsubscribe button.
Hope you've enjoyed it.
If there's anything that youhave heard today that you would
like more information on, drop acomment down below.
You can also find us.
If you want to see what Neiland I look like, for whatever
reason that might be, then youcould go to our YouTube channel,
the Retail Wire YouTube channel, and you can find us there
because we have this in videoformat as well.
(55:53):
But yeah, this will be anotherwonderful episode from our
Retail Wire Meet the Brain Trustseries.
So thanks again for being here.
We really appreciate you andwe'll see you next time here on
the Retail Wire Podcast.
Speaker 1 (56:08):
Thanks for tuning in to the Retail Wire Podcast.
We hope you enjoyed the episode.
Be sure to subscribe to us onyour favorite podcasting
platform and leave us a commentfor a chance to hear it read on
the next show.
See you next time here on theRetail Wire Podcast.
Welcome to the Retail Wire Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Retail Wire Podcast
.
I am your host, Brian Crum, andI am really excited for today's
episode.
We have another member of ourbrain trust with us today.
This person is well.
He comes from a long line inthe retail industry.
I tell you what I've seen himfeatured on a lot of different
(00:26):
news stations, a lot ofdifferent resources around video
, audio, everything.
This guy knows his way aroundthe retail space.
He is a visiting fellow at theUniversity of Surrey and is
currently the Managing Directorof Global Data Retail, which is
a retail research agency andconsulting firm focused on
(00:48):
retail and consumer behavior.
This guy's been with us here,retail Wire.
He's been a brain trust membersince around 2017.
I think that pretty much makeshim the expert on staff here.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcometo the show, neal Saunders.
How are you, sir?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Thanks very much for having me.
Yeah, I'm great.
Thank you, Brian.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I am doing very well.
Thanks for making time for ustoday, man.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Yeah, you're welcome.
I love the brain trust.
I love contributing everymorning reading what everyone
has to say.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
It's great to do more in-person stuff face-to-face,
absolutely yeah, and that's onething we're looking forward to
doing around here.
More is having theseconversations right being able
to.
I was telling you a little bitoffline here that this is why we
do the podcast is we wantpeople to know that not only are
you guys experts in the retailfield, but you have families,
(01:40):
you live in houses, you drivecars, just like everybody right.
That's a fun way that we cantake the approach to this man.
Again, just thanks for jumpingin.
So tell us a little bit aboutwho you are.
Where do you come from, what doyou do?
What makes Neil Saunders aprofessional that you are?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Well, as you say, it's good to see face-to-face
because it proves we're not AI.
I'm just putting these commentson.
We are all people.
So I am managing director ofglobal data.
So that is the primary role,the primary job that I have, and
in that role what I do isreally help our clients in the
(02:27):
retail field.
A lot of retailers, a lot ofpeople who supply into retail,
really just understand thesector, understand their place
in it, look forward to see whatmight be happening in the sector
so they can project things andultimately build better business
plans that they can grow marketshare or cut costs or become
more effective at servingcustomers, whatever their
(02:47):
objective is.
So that takes up a lot of mytime, but outside of that I do
quite a lot of non-retail stuff.
I do visit a lot of stores onthe weekends, as anyone who
follows me on Twitter will know,and that's kind of like a
Bustman's holiday because he'sdoing research whilst going to
the mall.
But outside of that, I do a lotof cycling.
(03:10):
I love cycling.
Every weekend I'm out on mybike, weather permitting.
When I say weather permitting,it's not that the weather is bad
, because I live mostly inArizona.
Sometimes it's far too hot togo cycling, so I have to confine
it to either the very earlymorning or the very late evening
, and I've lived in Arizonasince about 2018.
(03:34):
So I have climatized to theheat and I prefer the heat to
the rain, which we got a lot ofwhen I used to live in the UK,
so I'm actually fine with it.
But it's been very hot thisyear, which is why, at the
moment, we've escaped and cometo New Hampshire, which is why
it looks green outside.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I was going to say I don't see sand or brown behind
you, so that's a good thing toescape and get away to some
greenery.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Yes, there's no cacti either, which is a big
difference.
But yeah, it's really nice tohave that contrast, because
Arizona is a bit like it's aMartian landscape.
At least where I live furtherup north it's not, but around
Scottsdale it's very much thatkind of tan everything's sandy.
It's a beautiful, stunninglandscape, but when you come out
of it and come to somewherelike New Hampshire, I think it's
(04:25):
really nice because you see thecontrast and you're like wow,
isn't everything so green andlush?
So yeah, it's nice to switchbetween the two and, as I say,
at the moment it's super hot inArizona, so it's great to escape
that heat.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah, this summer has definitely gotten a little
crazy.
I know I've got a family outnear Flagstaff and so they have
definitely been feeling it morethis year and that heat is just.
It's crazy too, because correctme if I'm wrong it's a drier
heat out in Arizona, right?
So it's not quite as humid andeverything out there.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, oh for sure.
I mean, if it was humid I don'tthink I would want to live
there.
The humidity, like Florida,it's a killer with that kind of
heat.
We're lucky because it is verydry so you can go for a walk
outside and actually you don'treally get sweaty.
You'll get hot, okay, but itsounds quite unpleasant, but the
sweat literally just evaporatesso you actually remain quite
(05:20):
dry.
I think if it was swampy itwould just be terrible with that
heat, because sometimes we canget up to like 120, something
like that.
It's super, super hot with zero, zero humidity or very little
humidity.
Fine, you put some liquid inthere.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yeah, oh, I tell you, I understand that all too well
because I was actually.
I got to go to Mexico thissummer for a little getaway and
it was crazy, because not onlywas it 95 degrees, 98 degrees,
you know somewhere near 100.
And then suddenly I remembersitting there one evening,
(05:57):
looking out over, there was anisland a couple of miles off the
coast there we're on the northtip of Cancun and so you could
literally see this wall ofhumidity rolling through.
We thought it was rain.
No, it was just a gray cloud ofhumidity and it just rolled
across and you could feel thehumidity come up.
Everybody in the entirerestaurant starts sweating,
(06:17):
because it was an outdoorrestaurant, and we all just
start, you know, sweatingthrough our clothes and, okay,
all right.
Well, good news, we're inMexico.
So when you're on vacation.
It doesn't matter does it?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
When you're on vacation.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I think Nothing matters, so so okay, so now
you've got.
So you live in Arizona, you'recurrently up in New Hampshire.
You said so wife, kid, spouse,pets, what Tell us a little bit
about just your.
What's your family look like?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Sure.
So most of my family isactually in the UK, which is
where I'm from, so that's kindof nice because it means I can
go back there quite a lot andthey can come over here and
actually there's a lot of traveland it's nice for everyone to
experience the new things.
I do have some family here inthe US.
I have a partner, so that'squite nice.
(07:10):
An occasional pet, I think.
Unfortunately, the lifestylethat we have is very sort of
travel oriented and quite busy,so it's difficult to have a
permanent pet, but do have anoccasional pet, so that's quite
nice.
Dog, so I think that's the bestof both worlds.
No kids, I think, for the samereason as no permanent pet,
(07:34):
because it's very.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
So actually it doesn't necessarily relate to
that life, and that's okay,that's all right.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
But there's plenty of time for that, so we'll see
further down the line.
I'll never say never.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Absolutely.
Yeah, no, I had to kick my twodogs out of the office here,
otherwise they'd probably benosing me the entire time.
So that's very cool.
So tell us take us back to,kind of, the beginning of your
retail journey what got you intoretail?
Tell us a little bit aboutwhere your parents in it, where
you're around it growing up, orwas it just something that you
(08:07):
kind of had a fire lit up insideyou one day?
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Well, interesting, my parents weren't involved in it
at all.
Our family in its businessesand all of the professions it's
had, hasn't really ever hadanything to do with retail at
all.
But obviously as a child I wasdragged along shopping with my
parents when they would goshopping.
And I think back then, when Iwas still very, very young,
(08:35):
maybe like 10, 11, somethinglike that I was always
fascinated by retail.
I mean, I would go into asupermarket or go into a
department store, usually JohnLewis, which is a big department
store in the UK and I would beabsolutely fascinated by not
just what I saw but like theprocess I would think about how
(08:56):
did these goods get here?
Who chose to put these productshere?
How did they decide to lay thisstore out?
And obviously, being quite young, I didn't really have any
answers to this, but I was justabsolutely fascinated with, like
, the mechanics of how retail orthe shops worked.
And you know I always want tolook behind the scenes.
If there was kind of a you knowa stock room door propped open,
(09:19):
I'd always poking my headaround it.
My mom would probably bedragging me out, saying you're
not allowed to go in there.
But I was very curious and Ithink that really sparked off an
interest in retail.
I didn't really think about itmuch because as kids we don't
really think about careers.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
And when I was a kid, I actually wanted to be Prime
Minister of the UK, whichprobably tells you a lot.
I no longer would like thatrole at all.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I don't think any of us would like to be involved in
no no.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
No so I never sort of intended to get into retail.
But I suppose the next majormilestone was when I was at
university I did a degree ingeography.
Primarily it had elements ofeconomics and economic geography
in it and what I really likedabout that degree was there were
a lot of numbers and there werea lot of data, especially on
(10:07):
the economic side.
But I was absolutely fascinatedwith like, okay, the data is,
they're the end result, theymeasure what's happening and
there's a whole series of humandecisions and actions that
underpin those numerical data.
And I was very interested inthat side of things, like all
the behaviors that ended up withthose numbers.
(10:29):
And there were quite a fewelements on the degree course
that looked at things likeconsumption and there was
actually a very specific retailelement or component.
It looked at kind of thegeography of retail location and
how people would consume acrossdifferent geographies, how
retailers decided where to putstores, dealing a lot with GIS,
(10:49):
geographical information systemsand I absolutely loved that and
that's the area that I focusedon for my dissertation.
It's the area where I took mostcourses and I absolutely loved
it because it was that blend oflooking at the data but also
having that qualitative side ofreally understanding the human
behaviors, the psychologists ofconsumers, and so when I left
(11:12):
university I naturally lookedfor consumer and retail
companies and I actually went towork for John Lewis, the John
Lewis partnership, which is a UKretailer that owns John Lewis
department stores and waitrosesupermarkets.
So that's kind of how I firstgot into retail.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Man, that's so fascinating and you're right, I
think a lot of people don'trealize, they don't really think
about it, takes a specialperson to understand that a lot
of these items don't just showup in a store, right, and it's
not just accidental that it'splaced in a certain area.
So consumer behavior does playsuch this vital role and it's
(11:53):
funny how I think the averageperson probably walks into a
store and just says, oh, it'shere, that's it, that's the end
of the conversation for them.
But to be able to be so curiousabout it and go, hey, what does
it look like behind the scenes?
I remember the first time Iever got to see I was working on
a photo shoot and we got to bebehind the scenes where they
(12:18):
were producing some of theflower bouquets at a Walmart
store.
And so you think of, there's aflower display, sure, someone
actually put those together,right?
A lot of people don't think, oh, there's a florist, there's
someone behind the scenes thatactually created them, and I
think we've become so accustomedto that.
I think in a lot of our,specifically in America, I think
(12:40):
probably we've become soaccustomed to just seeing the
item as just a thing, right,it's just, it's there, and so we
don't necessarily think toodetailed into how it got there
or who put that there, and soyou know your fascination.
I definitely identify with thatvery well because I always
(13:01):
loved looking into the stockrooms.
I loved kind of pulling backthe curtain and kind of seeing
what's going on.
How did this become the realityhere?
So you started out there andthen you started out and, I'm
sorry, you said, john Lewis, isthat right?
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Yeah, john Lewis partnership, which owns the
department stores and has asupermarket business as well, so
it covers all of retail.
Really, it's the ideal retailerif you want to get your feet
wet and be in a lot of differentareas.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
So what were your first kind of experiences in
retail like?
Did you catch on very quickly?
Were there any fumbles that youwant to share as a laughable
moment or anything, or what wasthat like for you?
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Well, I loved it overall.
I mean, I was immersed in theenvironment, which was
fascinating to me, and I was nowable to go behind the curtain,
as you put it, and see howeverything worked, and so it was
absolutely wonderful to do that.
And because it was straight outof university, it was a
training scheme, so we were ableto do absolutely everything,
(14:06):
from serving on the shop floorto going out on the delivery
vans with the drivers deliveringorders, to doing proper
research work and developmentwork, which was kind of like the
primary role of it.
So I absolutely loved thatbecause you got to see
everything and it's reallycritical because you can make a
decision in an office based onsome data and what you think is
(14:27):
right.
But you'd speak to like driversgoing out on the vans.
They go, yeah, well, theychanged this, and you know what.
It just doesn't work becausethe schedule now is wrong and
you would pick on all of thesenuances.
So I really liked that.
It wasn't problem free, as Ithink no job is.
I was for a time working in theelectronics department and I was
(14:50):
put in charge of a category andthe category was electronic
accessories.
So it had things likeheadphones in their batteries,
all the types of littleelectronics.
You get cables and leads, andone of the things I had
responsibility for was makingsure that the levels of stock
(15:10):
were correct, and most time itwould replenish automatically,
but you could manually overrideit if you needed to, because you
could say well, it's not enough.
We, you know, there's somethingcoming up like a big event
where we think people will buymore television cables or
whatever.
And I went onto the system onthe computers and placed an
order for batteries and I wasnot really thinking, and I was
(15:35):
thinking like it was rathernumbers.
I was thinking the numbers ofunits, I was thinking it was
like pounds and pens.
So I put two extra zeros on theend to count for the pens when
it was units.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
So rather than change things a bit.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Yeah, rather than kind of, I think it was 20, I
was supposed to order ratherthan 20 of these these things
turning up, I had 2000.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
That's exciting.
So what did the, what did theboss say to that one?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Well, I kind of like was the first reaction was like
oh, how can I like cover this up?
And these things went throughquickly to remind that maybe I
could just buy them all by allthe stock and I was like, no,
this is crazy, it's going tocost a fortune.
So I just fast up and said,look, I'm really sorry I've done
this.
And he just laughed and said,look, it's not the first time
(16:28):
it's happened.
He said, actually it's a goodlesson because it's fine, we can
just send them back to thewarehouse.
And he showed me what you'redoing the computer just to do a
return.
Yeah, luckily it was.
I mean, it's the relativelysmall item so it didn't like
fill up the whole department.
But there are also things thatare quite common a garden, I
(16:49):
mean.
They probably have, you know,millions of them in stock for
the whole group.
So it didn't deprive anyoneelse of them.
So it was quite fortunate.
But I I think I went super redat the time and was just
extremely embarrassed and Inever made that mistake again,
I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
You know, I think we've all had those moments,
especially as you're gettingstarted in a certain area.
It's bound to happen.
The best part is having thatleader that can just say hey
look, it's okay, we're going tobe all right, we'll move forward
through this.
And here's, here's how youlearn through this.
You know the the fail fast,fail forward kind of approach,
right, so you have to learn fromit and move on.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
That's right, and they did improve the systems
they then put in I don't thinkit was just because of me, I
think it probably happened a lotthey put in place a failsafe
eventually where where you didthese manual orders, if it was X
percent above, kind of like theaverage daily sales value, it
would like up and say are yousure you want this money?
So unfortunately just didn'thave that when I made the
(17:48):
mistake.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, that's wise.
I mean, even you know, thinkingof that from an ordering
standpoint, it's.
It's funny how that was not thestandard until you and several
others had, you know, made thatmistake enough that they said,
oh yeah, this is something wereally need to pay attention to.
You know, I think of there's a,there's an app that I use
(18:09):
occasionally, whenever I'm atthe gym, right, whenever I'm
working out, and it's funnybecause it'll say, you know,
like, do 20 of these or what,you know, 20 curls or something,
and if you accidentally hit anextra zero, it will pop up and
say are you sure that's 400percent above what you said or
what it was recommended for you,or something?
And it's oh yeah, I hit anextra digit in there somewhere,
(18:32):
so it's good to have those failsafes in there.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Yeah, it is, and I think the systems to be fair in
my defense and everyone else'sdefense who made this mistake
they were extraordinarilyantiquated.
I think they're a lot betternow.
They certainly weren't asmodern as they should have been.
They worked, but they oftenwork by the skin of their teeth
and one of the things I workedon at the time was improving
(18:56):
those systems and looking how,how you could improve both the
user interface of the systemsbut also the reporting back,
because one of the things Iliked most about that job was
seeing the reports at the end ofthe day, the end of the week,
the end of the month, like howmany units of soul?
And you could.
You could look at everything.
You could look at individualproducts, you could compare
yourself to other branches, youcould look at the group total of
(19:18):
these things and I absolutelyloved all this data.
But it used to come out in themost horrible way on like
printed sheets and it was allvery, very sort of undigestible
and I think you could downloadinto spreadsheets and things.
But one of the things that weworked on was like how can you
improve that visually so youcould automatically look at how
(19:39):
you ranked in a chart comparedto other branches, so it
actually became a lot moreuseful.
So there was a lot of greatstuff with the systems that
happened and has happened sinceI left.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, so, okay.
So I just I'm all I can sayhere and just think of like 2000
batteries or whatever coming inand you're like, oh no, no, we
can't do this, but no, I thinkthat's.
It's really cool to hear yourjourney.
So you came in, you came inthrough through John Lewis, and
(20:11):
then where did you kind of movefrom there?
What?
What was your next step like?
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Well, the next step was to work for a company called
Verdig Research, whicheventually became a company
called Data Monitor, and thatwas really a research and
analysis firm and doingconsulting as well off the back
of the research and analysis,and I worked in the retail part
of that business and sobasically it was doing what I'd
(20:39):
been doing at John Lewis, but itwas doing it for lots of
different clients on a muchwider range of projects.
And that's one of the reasonswhy I left John Lewis, because,
as much as I love the businessand I love the whole business
model of the John Lewis becauseit's a partnership that's owned
by the staff I wanted thechallenge of doing a much
greater variety of work acrossdifferent sectors, different
(20:59):
retailers and really getting tounderstand lots of different
businesses.
And Verdig and then DataMonitor provided me with that
opportunity.
And that was a wonderful lessonbecause it just expanded my
whole knowledge of retail.
It expanded my knowledge ofdifferent types of business, the
(21:20):
different types of challenges,business-faced, different
solutions that could be put inplace, all sorts of different
projects, and we had data comingin from all over the place.
I mean we had consumer researchdata, we had retailer panel
data, we had receipt data, wehad our own analysis, we had
forecasters, we had economicdata and it was just like a kid
(21:42):
in a candy shop basically, myeyes just lit up all these
different data that you coulduse on the project.
So I really, really enjoyedthat job.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Well, and when you have that mindset of
understanding that, like you'resaying, the data's there, but
unless you can interpret it it'scumbersome, right.
And so to have someone like youwho can go in and see the data
and go, oh well, this is thestory it's telling, then that
makes it a lot more accessiblefor not only the leadership but
(22:16):
then also putting it back to thestores, putting it back to the
consumers, and I would imaginethat probably just made it a lot
more enjoyable all around,right.
I mean, everybody gets to seehey, I don't have to deal with
the data, but you can tell methe story from it.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Oh, absolutely, and I think that's the biggest lesson
really, in a way, that Ilearned from being in that kind
of environment.
It's that the data areinteresting but they have to do
something.
And to do something you have toreally analyze them thoroughly,
extract what's useful and thentell the story out to them, get
the insight out to them thatallows you to go and do
(22:56):
something on the ground thatmakes material difference to the
business.
And I think that still holdstrue today.
I mean, you often see a lot ofdata that float around in the
media, in reports and elsewhere,and there's a big so what
factor to it?
It's like, well, this is kindof interesting, but it's like so
what?
What does it mean?
And I think you always have tonail things through to an
(23:19):
ultimate conclusion.
Sometimes it's difficult,sometimes the data don't show
much, and that's fine.
You can say they don't showmuch, but very often you have to
dig deep and try and tessellatethings and put things together
so that you come out with astory that's very informative
and easy to grasp.
And that's that's reallyimportant, because I think in
retail, as in every industry,some folks are very numeric.
(23:41):
I mean, I love looking at a bigspreadsheet of data, but you
put that in front of a lot ofpeople and they're like I don't
look at numbers, I don't likenumbers, they're afraid of
numbers Right yeah.
So you have to tell them thestory or visualize it.
And one of the interestingthings there is we we still do
do a lot of work for IKEA.
They're one of our biggestclients.
But back then IKEA was also oneof our clients in the early
(24:03):
days and we used to do a kind ofquarterly presentation to them.
We used to go and present tothe board of the UK IKEA and we
used to present what we thoughtwas going on the market, what we
thought of them.
We used to monitor all sorts ofthings like pricing and we used
to make it really visual andexciting.
And one day the then managingdirector of IKEA UK said you
(24:24):
know, he said we love your data,we love your insights, we love
all the consulting work you dofor us, but you know what we
think.
Actually you should come in andgive us lessons on how to
present data and how to tellstories, because you do that
really well.
And that was like wow, that's areally nice compliment.
It's like no one has ever saidthat to us before.
But I think that really drummedhome to myself and my
(24:44):
colleagues who are presentingLike yeah, like how you tell the
story, how you show the data issometimes just as important as
the data itself, and I thinkthat's one of the greatest sort
of come downs or the greatestshame of data sometimes is
people sometimes have great data, they just display it in an
awful way and it's like you, itjust falls on stony ground and
(25:07):
it's.
It's such a shame because thatstorytelling is.
We like stories, we're humansand it's very important, I think
, with data.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that it's.
That is so true because we dolove story, we do love
understanding that, and so it'snot usually that people have no
interest in the story, it's thatif the story is not consumable
by them in a way that they, thatthey can understand, well then
it's like you said, it just kindof falls on stony ground, it
(25:36):
just kind of goes over, itdoesn't take root, you're not
really going to, you know,they're not going to grasp it,
they're not going to say, oh, Iwant more of that, because they
just don't understand it.
It's not necessarily a good orbad data situation, right, it's
just it's in that presentation.
So now, that's a hugecompliment.
And you know, it's funny becauseone of the one of the topics I
(25:59):
wanted to touch on too was I'veseen, like I said, I've seen you
featured on a lot of differentnews resources, and you know,
one of my questions that I hadwas why do you think that is?
But I mean, obviously it'sbecause of the storytelling,
right, like it's because you'reable to take something that
could be to the broad masses,something that is so detailed,
(26:21):
right, and so you have a lot ofdifferent areas and angles to it
.
What's that been like for you,I guess, being able to be that
figure that gets out and speaksall these different news
channels and everything aboutthe data of what's going on in
retail.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Well, I think for me I mean, I don't really look at
the coverage I think our pressteam monitors that but for me,
to be honest, I just liketalking about retail.
I mean, it's quite simple.
So when a journalist calls upor gets in touch, I'm always
really happy to chat to thembecause they're kind of digging
as well.
They want the story what's theshowing, where is it going,
(27:00):
what's the truth behind this?
And I like that.
It's very investigative and soI love talking to them and I
think that's very helpful.
And being able to tell thestory and be clear about the
data is very important as well.
But I think the other trick toit if there are tricks to it is
to be honest and not be afraidto give opinions.
And that's something that itcomes over time, because when I
(27:24):
first started I wouldn't reallygive opinions.
I wasn't confident enough.
I don't think I had theexperience, I don't think I
earned the right to giveopinions on things.
I was still learning.
But over time I have learned alot, as we all do as we go
through our careers, and I nowwill give opinions that I'm not
afraid to give opinions onthings, even if they're very
(27:44):
blunt opinions.
They are opinions.
People are free to agree ordisagree.
But I tell it like it isbecause I don't really see the
point to be honest in life, andespecially not in research, of
not telling the truth.
You have to be balanced, youhave to be fair, but you should
also tell it like it is.
You have to speak the truth ofwhat you see and I think one of
(28:06):
the reasons genus like it isbecause, to be quite honest and
I know why they do it and Iwould do the same if I was in
that position a lot of verysenior management in retail
they'll spin their story thatthey have to.
They have to say what they thinkthe market wants to hear.
They have to put a positivegloss on things.
But sometimes what they'resaying is not the reality on the
ground and we all know it's notthe reality on the ground.
(28:28):
So it's very important to havesomeone saying well, hang on a
minute, you're saying this ishappening, but I'm not seeing it
.
It's not coming through in thedata, it's not coming through on
the shop floor, it's not comingthrough in terms of what your
colleagues are saying on theshop floor.
So you have to sort of hold theindustry to account, as it were,
and I think you do a fairlygood job of that, not just
(28:49):
myself, but my colleagues aswell, and we have all sort of
learned over time to beopinionated and opinion-led
based on fact, obviously,absolutely, and it's something
we drill into our new recruits.
We say to them look, when youhave the confidence, don't be
(29:09):
afraid to say what you think,especially internally to us.
Always speak as you thinksomething is, and we can have
better dialogues that way.
That's how we improve things,that's how we reach the truth of
things.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think one thing that you justkind of inspired in my thoughts
there were be willing to speakyour opinion.
As long as it's rooted in fact,as long as it's rooted in what
you truly believe to understand,then that's great.
I think the only thing I mightadd to that would be and be open
to changing your mind if you'reproven otherwise.
(29:44):
That's where I think a lot ofus get stuck is going hey, I can
be opinionated and then well,I'll just agree to disagree.
But whenever you're opinionatedbut also willing to learn and
continue to grow, I think that'sphenomenal.
I think that's where, likeexactly to your point, I think a
lot of people are afraid to beopinionated.
(30:04):
They're afraid to speak out thetruth because it might offend
somebody, it might bothersomebody or it might contradict
someone else's opinion.
But if your opinion is firmlyrooted and you actually have
good data to back it up, wellthen by all means speak your
opinion and have an educatedconversation.
I think that's really reallywise for anyone, not just in the
(30:25):
retail industry but in life.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Yeah, and I think that's what's great about the
Brain Trust as well, because Ithink the Brain Trust does have
a lot of people who will shareopinions very openly and
sometimes people will disagreealways very politely, I have to
say.
But it's really interesting toread through those comments
because you see slightlydifferent perspectives and, as
you say, if you're open,sometimes it does shift your
(30:48):
opinion slightly and you'll say,yeah, actually you know what?
I hadn't looked at that anglebefore.
That's really interesting andit sort of makes your opinion
more nuanced and balanced andit's a great forum for that
discussion, I think, becauseeveryone has such good
experience, they're all veryopen to sharing and it's a very
safe forum.
I don't think people feelafraid to share their opinions.
(31:09):
But also it makes it morevaluable for the reader, because
you don't want to read 20comments saying exactly the same
thing.
You also don't want to readcomments that just basically
restate the facts.
It's dull, it's like well, Iknew that already.
What you want is something thatmakes you think and you sort of
sit up and say, oh, and this isinteresting because this
actually is very much the ethosof the John Lewis partnership
(31:31):
where I started.
John Lewis is a mutually ownedcooperative.
It's owned by the people whowork there.
Any profit after investments isdivided up and paid out as a
bonus to all of the staff.
Everyone gets the samepercentage of their salary as
the bonus.
But one of the things that'senshrined in the Constitution of
John Lewis is that it is yourbusiness, as in the people who
(31:55):
work there, and it's yourabsolute right to speak out to
say what you think.
And people are allowed to writeinto the house newspaper, the
Gazette and some of the letters.
When I was there they used tobe anonymous.
I'm not sure they are anymore,but they used to be anonymous
and people used to givethemselves funny names.
They were quite peppery.
I mean, some people used to bereally blunt brutally blunt
(32:17):
about criticism of seniormanagement and senior management
have to answer in the repliesto the letters in the magazine
that came out weekly.
It was refreshing.
It was actually like, well, itcan be painful, but it's the
right thing to do, because theseare the people that work there.
They have a right to have thissay, and actually some great
ideas come from people on theshop floor, people who are out
(32:39):
in the vans, people in thewarehouses, and it was that
culture of listening, and Ithink that that probably is one
of the areas that I get where Iam today in terms of being not
afraid to share opinions andtrying to be open.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yeah, would you say that's probably one of the
bigger things you've learnedabout yourself through this
journey, or kind of what hasbeen your finding about who you
are and how you operate.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
I think, yes, I think definitely building confidence
to have opinions and use data totake it to the next level so
you can be very descriptive andtake it forward into having that
point of view.
I've definitely learned that.
Storytelling is another thingthat I've learned.
I think the other thing thatI've learned is which is not
(33:28):
really to do with retail, Ithink it's just a live lesson is
that almost every problem youcome across is solvable.
Yeah, I am definitely someonewho is on the side of perfection
and I used to get not upset butvery anxious, I think, when
things weren't right, either inthe work I was doing or
(33:49):
sometimes like in personal lifeor at home as well.
Yeah, and I still retain thatperfectionist streak.
For example, if I'm doing apresentation, everything has to
be aligned properly and you knowthe fonts have to be be right.
It drives me mad when someonesends me something that's like
can you not see this?
It's just like misaligned.
So I'm very structured likethat.
But I think I've learned thatyou know every problem that you
(34:11):
come across in work or an issuelike ordering those too many
batteries.
It's really not the end of theworld.
You can solve it and get aroundit.
You just have to be tenaciousabout it and logical about it.
So now I would say I'm a lotmore relaxed as a person and a
lot more relaxed in my careerthan perhaps I was at the start,
and that's been a good lessonfor me.
(34:33):
I probably can go a bit furtherin that direction.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
And you know, I think that that speaks a lot to you
know your growth and kind ofjust your own journey there.
Because that is one thing whereit's okay it's completely okay
to want things to be right andcorrect and true, but then also
you have to remember there'sthat human element to anything
right, Just like your managerdid, whenever there was the one
(35:02):
ordering fumble, they stillremembered you're a person right
.
They still remembered, oh,there's a human here involved,
and so, yeah, let's learn, let'smove forward from it.
You know, and so you know.
I just think that's importantfor everybody as we just
continue to grow and I think,speaking directly about retail
(35:22):
right now, there are so manyareas of retail that are being
changed around.
Some of them are going throughbig growth, some of them are
going through some shrinkingright, and so there's some
shifts.
Unfortunately, there's beensome companies recently that
they've seen their last days,and then there's other companies
that are just taking off anddifferent brands and different
(35:42):
technologies that are kind ofemerging.
Now, thinking of retail andkind of the current state that
it's in, what are you excitedfor right now?
What do you see like wheneveryou read something about?
You know, read about a specifictopic or anything.
What is something that justreally gets you excited.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Well, I'm very excited to see how people
continue to integrate technology.
I think this is one of thegreat challenges and great
opportunities, because we'regetting to a stage in technology
now where there's so manyquestions around AI, there's so
many questions around automation.
I think there's some reallycreative ways that we can apply
this to retail and to make thesector better for workers and
(36:26):
make it ultimately better forconsumers.
I think we're still in the veryembryonic days.
It's a bit like the early daysof computers, before they came
around.
When things started tocomputerize, you would have a
lot of different attempts toexperiment and try different
things.
I think we're in that stagewith AI now.
(36:47):
I think a lot of people aretesting it.
They're looking at how it canbe deployed in the business.
No one has real answers to it.
Of course, there'll be multiplestrategies that work for
different retailers.
I think it's really exciting tosee how different people are
deploying it, how differentpeople are viewing it as a
solution for retail.
I think in 10 years' time,we'll probably be still trying
(37:09):
out a lot of things.
It'll be fascinating to lookback and see that journey and
how we've evolved to the statethat we're in, because I think,
fundamentally, retail will bethe same.
I think how it works in a lotof senses could be very
different for the consumer andfor the people who work in
retail, but for better and worse.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, absolutely no.
I agree with that completely.
I think that's been one of thethings that I've continued to
see and say as well is retail,at the end of the day, is all
about person-to-personinteraction.
The vehicle, kind of like whatyou're talking about the way
that it happens might bedifferent over time, but in the
end it's still aperson-to-person interaction,
(37:51):
end-to-end.
So that's really good to see.
And, thinking of technology andeverything, I want to get your
hot take on this one.
This will date the episode.
That's okay, whatever.
But here's my question.
So I've been seeing a lot aboutAmazon One lately with their
little wave your palm and it'sgot the palm recognition
(38:12):
technology to it.
What's just your hot take on it?
What's just your thoughts aboutit and technology of that type
that, when it comes to securityand when it comes to that unique
application of it, well, Ithink the technology itself is
absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
I mean it's absolutely amazing, when you
think about it, that thistechnology could be put in place
.
I mean, if I saw thistechnology when I was a child,
it would be a Harry Potter typething.
It'd be like wow, this is likehow does this work?
How does this happen?
I think we've become a bit morejaded to it now because we see
so many technological things,but it still is amazing
technology.
I think it does have anapplication.
(38:49):
I mean, look, it does save abit of time if you can wave your
palm.
It is technically more securethan other methods.
I'm not quite sure it saves somuch time and is that much more
secure than something like ApplePay, but it's definitely better
than paying by card.
So I think it does have anapplication.
I think the two issues with itare, first of all, the obvious
issue that some people don'tlike it.
They think it gives up too muchprivacy.
(39:11):
It's biometric data to acertain extent and we have to
address those concerns.
They're very reasonableconcerns and I think it is a
barrier to adoption.
I mean, amazon is not sayingthat everyone has to use this.
It's optional still, so I cantake it or leave it, which is
the right way to approach it,but I don't think everyone likes
it.
The other thing is, I liketechnology.
(39:32):
I like technology that makesthings simpler, that makes
things more seamless and takesout friction, but honestly, it's
not a game changer.
It's a bit like the Amazon Gostores.
They are fantastic in terms ofwhat they do and Amazon has led
the way in building that type oftechnology.
But as far as the customer'sconcerned, does it make a
difference?
(39:52):
No, not really.
It doesn't make you go to thatstore over another store.
What makes you go to the storeis all emotional.
It's the quality of the food,the ambiance, the customer
service you get, because youlike the brands there, because
the prices are really good,because it's close to you.
It's emotional decisions thatoften drive where you shop, and
I think that's.
If I had one criticism ofAmazon, it's that sometimes they
(40:15):
are very technical and they'reabsolutely brilliant at being
technical.
They're not always quite sogood at that emotional side, but
that's OK.
I mean that shows why they'renot really a threat that some
people make them out to be.
They have weaknesses as well asadvantages, as every retailer
does.
So that's kind of where I standon that type of technology.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Yeah, I think it's fascinating.
I think it's going to be reallycool to see where I mean, we're
recording this in 2023,.
I'm excited to see where we'reat in 2025.
Two years down the road we'regoing to have tons of different
applications, I think, betweenthis and AI and everything else
we're doing.
So that'll be fun.
(40:57):
And are there any brands I knowyou mentioned, like Amazon just
now, but are there any brandsor anything that you're kind of
really paying extra closeattention to right now and just
kind of watching them lead theway?
Or maybe you have somehesitations about them or
anything?
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Well, I think I mean I watch all the brands really.
I mean it's a bit of an issuebecause there's so many to watch
, as you know.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Yeah, it seems like every day there's like a
thousand more right so oh yeah,it's incredible.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
I mean it's difficult to keep up with it, especially
when it gets into earning season.
Everyone's putting out resultsat the same time.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Oh yeah.
And we're about to go we triedto look through all the press
releases on everything and wetry to sort through all that.
And it seems like every day,there's like 57 different press
releases.
It's about such and suchcompany releases quarterly
earnings and we're going.
Ok, this is nice.
Unfortunately, I don't needthis for my application right
(41:50):
now, but we'll keep that in mind, thank you.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Yeah, it's like drinking from a fire hose
there's too much stuff it is,but it says what I'm keeping an
eye on.
I think Gap I'm keeping a closeeye on because obviously
there's just been a change inleadership and the new
leadership incoming seems tohave very good skills and
talents and I'm hoping that itis going to mark the start of a
(42:14):
proper turnaround at Gap,because the company has had so
many false starts and I thinkit's a great shame.
Gap was a pioneer and it'sstill a big company in a lot of
ways, but the core Gap brand haslost a lot of its credibility.
It doesn't really know who itscore customer is.
And I like turnarounds.
I always and people say thissometimes on the retail why like
(42:34):
, oh, you can't turn them around.
I always hate that because it'slike I honestly believe
anything can be turned aroundwith enough F and application.
Whether it's worth turningaround is another question, but
I think humans are veryinnovative and we can do most of
the stuff we put our mind to,and I'd love to see Gap
implement a turnaround and startdoing better and I feel more
(42:56):
optimistic with the leadershipcoming in than I've felt in a
while, whether they succeed ornot.
I mean, it remains to be seen,but it's going to be fascinating
to watch and I really wish themluck and hope they start to
make those changes.
So I'm keeping a close eye onthat Amazon.
I'm keeping a very close eye onAmazon because I think they're
(43:18):
at a bit of a crossroads at themoment.
They're tremendously successful, but they're trying to make
better inroads to grocery andthey're putting in a lot of work
there.
They're also very mature in alot of markets and we've got a
new lot of upstarts like Sheehanand Timu, and I'm really
interested to see the responseto that.
And I'm also keeping a close eyeon the regulatory side as well.
(43:41):
That's a side that reallyworries me for the Amazon
business and what happens there.
I don't think that a lot of thecriticisms that are levied at
Amazon are particularly fair orreasonable, but nevertheless
there is this legislative threat, and it's unfortunately a
threat that is very difficult todeal with, because when you
(44:04):
have an issue like yourcustomers don't like you, or
your customers aren't shoppingwith you, you can remedy it and
change it and you can do itpretty quickly.
I think with legal things andregulatory things, it's a lot
more difficult to influence andhave control over them, so I'm
watching that very closely aswell.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah, I think it will definitely be interesting to
see kind of going back to myother statement of where we're
at with Amazon in two years,because I think that you're
right, we are at a crossroads.
We are at a point where there'sgoing to be some big things
that come down the pipeline thatthey may or may not even have
control over, but it's going toimpact them in such a way that
(44:43):
it could shift their businessmodel a little bit.
So I'm excited to see wherethat goes.
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
I was going to say, yeah, it's going to be very,
very interesting to see.
And I think that's one of thegreat things about retail,
because if we go back 10, 15, 20years, the story was all about
Walmart and how Walmart wastaking over the world.
Now the story has been aboutAmazon and now the story is
shifting again and it's startingto be like oh, what about
(45:14):
Sheehan and Teemu and what arethey doing?
And I think that's one of thegreat things.
Retail is very it's a very openplaying field and in some sense
it's a very level playing fieldand you can get people coming
into the industry and disruptingit in a way that you just don't
get, I think, in some of thebig industrial type sectors,
because the barriers to entry inthose sectors are so high.
(45:38):
Retail has comparatively lowbarriers to entry and that's why
it's so fascinating, becauseyou have this constant change.
But also, as well as the bigpledge, you've got a whole bunch
of small independent stores whocollectively take billions of
dollars in terms of sales andthey innovate and push things
(45:59):
forward as well.
So it's a sector that's inconstant flux, constant change
and, as you know, it keeps usall on our toes, which I think
is a really, really good thing,and it keeps all the retailers
on their toes as well, becauseif you stop paying attention for
a second, you can start to fail, and, as you mentioned, we've
seen that Retailers do fail onquite a regular basis Big
(46:21):
retailers like Bed, bath andBeyond.
They fail because they don't dothe right things, and that
means that the sector is onethat you've got to really be
alert in and you've got toconstantly evolve, constantly
change up what you do, and that,yeah, it's stressful, but it's
also great fun as well.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Well, and you do have to begin to bring it back to
your core area of consumerbehavior and understanding those
metrics.
I think that's one of the areaswhere, again, bed Bath and
Beyond they're out of here nowand so, watching them, I feel
like they kind of landed.
They were kind of like the jockin high school, right, they
(47:01):
were maybe the footballquarterback, the captain, the
team or something, and they hadtheir one-trick pony.
That was what they ran on,right.
And I think, just speaking frommy understanding from the
consumer side, it looked likethey were banking so heavily on
everybody coming in for their20% off coupons and the big
banners, the sales and oh,there's big flashy numbers over
(47:25):
here.
But ultimately, every time Ikept walking into a Bed Bath and
Beyond store before, it wasalways I would walk in with
hopes of finding a wonderfulitem and immediately upon
walking through the doors Iwould just feel completely
overwhelmed because everythingjust looked muddied, everything
(47:45):
looked very kind of just.
I don't know I'm not going tobash the floor mod person
because they had their job to do, but there was a time when
everything stood out really welland then, I think over the last
10 years, eight years,something like that.
It just felt like the floormods were laid out in such a way
that nothing really made senseat least, and so it was kind of
(48:09):
harder to shop as a consumer, togo through and find certain
things I was looking for, andthey had lots of trinkets, but
then whenever it came to thathigher end product that I was
actually looking for, you wouldfind it occasionally spread out,
but it wasn't the featureanymore.
So, yeah, we'll see whathappens now in the next few
(48:31):
years of retail.
It's going to be a wild ride, Iknow that.
So, looking back as we kind ofwrap up here, if you could go
back in time this is why I loveto end every episode with this
but if you could go back in timeto when you were just getting
started on your own retailjourney, understanding yourself
better now than you ever havebefore, what would you go back
(48:54):
and tell yourself?
Is there something that youwould change, or is there
something you would encourageyourself more in or try to
dissuade yourself from in anyway?
Speaker 3 (49:05):
It's a really great question and I didn't really
prepare it, even though I knowyou asked this question For
podcasts.
I think, honestly, I would tellmyself to enjoy the ride,
because I do enjoy the ride verymuch now.
I think when I was younger, Iwas a lot more serious than I am
(49:26):
now.
I was a lot more sort ofuptight and concerned about
things already mentioned, likeseeing things as a problem and
not necessarily understandingthat everything can be solved
ultimately, and whilst I thinkyou should take life and work
very seriously, you also have toget the most out of it and you
have to enjoy it and you have tonot take things too seriously.
(49:49):
I think that's what I wouldtell myself.
I think I would probably haveenjoyed my.
I did enjoy my younger days.
It's not that they werehorribly times, but I think I
was just a lot more intense backthen and I think I didn't sort
of almost like pause enough justto savor everything and to
(50:10):
enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
And it was really the moment that you were in.
While you were in it.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
Yeah, I think I was always dashing on to the next
thing.
It was like, oh, I need to dothis, I need to do this, I need
to do this.
And there's still an element ofthat in me.
I'm still quite an impatientperson and I think all traits
have positives and negatives,and so in some ways I don't want
to change things because I kindof like aspects of traits and
dislike other aspects.
But I definitely now am a lotmellower and I do savor things a
(50:40):
lot more.
I really just enjoy theexperience of work or personal
life or whatever I'm doing, andthat's something I would have
told myself.
But the problem is I could goback, but I absolutely wouldn't
have taken any notice whatsoever.
I would have probably said whatdo you know?
Even though you're from thefuture and you're me, you know
nothing.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
I'll continue to do that.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
Yeah, exactly, I think that's a good thing about
life.
I think over time it's likesediment it builds up, you get
the experiences and hopefullyyou become a more rounded and a
better person in all aspects.
And yeah, I'll continue tostrive for that.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
Good.
I think that's a great reminderfor everybody here.
Enjoy the time you're in, justbe in the moment.
The easier way of saying thatwould be live while you're alive
, right.
Just act like you're able toenjoy it.
Speaker 3 (51:34):
Exactly.
I'd be grateful for every daythat you've got, because it's a
very cliched adage, but youdon't know when it will be the
last.
And it's there for the taking,and it's there for the
experiencing.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
I have a friend of mine who he actually has a.
He's got an app that willoccasionally go off random times
throughout his day and I thinkhe has it set four or five times
a day and it just says reminder, one day you're going to die,
or it'll say something like that.
And he's like some people willlook at this.
(52:10):
He goes I got dark humor, buthe goes some people look at this
as a negative way of like oh mygoodness, yeah, why would I
ever want to be reminded of that?
And he goes to me it's justthat reminder to live and he's
like one day you will die.
So right now that's not thatday, so let's live.
Speaker 3 (52:30):
Exactly.
I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Well, neil, thank you so much.
If people want to learn moreabout you, I would imagine they
can follow you on LinkedIn.
Is that probably the best place, or is there a different
website or any way that they cankind of follow along on the
journey of Neil?
Speaker 3 (52:45):
Sure, If people want to follow along on the journey
of Neil, LinkedIn is a goodplace.
Twitter is also very good.
I do lots of daily news updateson Twitter.
I try to share all the retailnews I come across.
And also on the weekends, as Imentioned, I will often go out
into the mall.
So you can see my trips toretailers, especially Macy's,
and some people have said it'svery enjoyable.
(53:06):
I'm not quite sure why.
I'm quite sarcastic about whatI see on the shop floor.
I often try to pull out thingsthat don't look so good.
People engage much more withthat kind of content than saying
, oh look, this is a wonderfuldisplay.
So if you want to see what I'mup to in the mall, Twitter is
the place and Neil retail, orone word, is the handle.
Oh, it's not Twitter anymoreanyway, is it?
(53:26):
It's X?
Speaker 2 (53:27):
I think it's X.
Now right, no, no, no, no, ohgoodness, yeah, that's a little
different podcast for anotherepisode there.
So it is Well, I will make sureand put your LinkedIn and your
Twitter handle down in thedescription of this episode so
people can follow along there.
By the way, you did get mepaying a lot more attention to
(53:50):
stores like Macy's and Dillard'swhenever I go in and I will say
I was in a Dillard's the otherday, this is probably two weeks
ago, three weeks ago and the onehere in Northwest Arkansas
specifically is very well-kept.
They take great care of it here, so I thought it was
merchandise well.
The people actually were veryattentive, so that was good.
Speaker 3 (54:11):
It's funny.
I agree with that because wehave the claim to fame of
Scottsdale.
Well, one of the claims of fameis we have the biggest Dillards
in the world in ScottsdaleRussian Square.
I don't know how I found thisfact out, but it is true.
It's somewhere on the Dillard'swebsite buried away and it is
an enormous store.
It's cavernous, it's probablyfar too big, to be honest, for
what they need, but I have tosay it's kind of old-fashioned
(54:35):
but it's nice.
It's like retail used to be andthe founding family are still
running it and you can see theseold-fashioned retail standards
and disciplines and customerservice.
And Dillards have done reallywell over the past few years and
I'm really pleased with thatbecause I think they do make an
effort and I honestly think theydeserve to do well because of
(54:56):
all the department stores in theUS, dillards I think it really
tries and it doesn't necessarilyget everything right, but they
make the effort and it's nice tosee people who make the effort
winning.
So yeah, that's great that youfound the same thing.
We're aligned.
Speaker 2 (55:11):
I've been following you on Twitter and I'm just like
, yeah, no, this is a very realexperience.
So I have definitely found ituseful and enjoyable and
definitely entertaining for metoo.
So, anyway, that's good, allright.
Well, thank you so much, neil,for stopping by.
I really appreciate you takingtime today.
If this is your first timelistening to the Retail Wire
(55:31):
Podcast, be sure and hit thatsubscribe button.
Hope you've enjoyed it.
If there's anything that youhave heard today that you would
like more information on, drop acomment down below.
You can also find us.
If you want to see what Neiland I look like, for whatever
reason that might be, then youcould go to our YouTube channel,
the Retail Wire YouTube channel, and you can find us there
because we have this in videoformat as well.
(55:53):
But yeah, this will be anotherwonderful episode from our
Retail Wire Meet the Brain Trustseries.
So thanks again for being here.
We really appreciate you andwe'll see you next time here on
the Retail Wire Podcast.
Speaker 1 (56:08):
Thanks for tuning in to the Retail Wire Podcast.
We hope you enjoyed the episode.
Be sure to subscribe to us onyour favorite podcasting
platform and leave us a commentfor a chance to hear it read on
the next show.
See you next time here on theRetail Wire Podcast.
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