Episode 4: Friendship, the Key to a Happy Retirement, Ft. Dr. Jaimie Krems

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In this episode of The Retired Mindset, Bob sits down with Dr. Jaimie Arona Krems, Associate Professor of Psychology at UCLA and Co-Founder/Director of the UCLA Center for Friendship Research—the first academic hub dedicated to decoding and strengthening human social connection. This conversation is filled with warmth, science, humor, and wisdom you can put into practice today. 

Retirement is often described as a “new chapter,” but no one hands us the roadmap for rebuilding community, belonging, and close friendships once the workplace's structure disappears. As Dr. Krems explains, friendship isn’t just a bonus in our later years… It’s biological medicine. It supports longevity, mental health, resilience, and our sense of identity.

Together, we explore why friendships matter more than ever in retirement, why so many people struggle to build or maintain meaningful connections, and how the emerging science of friendship can help us create what Dr. Krems calls “anti-lonely brains.”

Key Takeaways:

• Why friendship is the “silver bullet” for health and happiness

Dr. Krems breaks down the research showing that strong friendships can improve physical health, support mental well-being, reduce stress, and even lengthen our lifespan.

• The Loneliness Epidemic + the Friendship Recession

We discuss why so many retirees experience deep loneliness—even when life looks “full”—and how cultural shifts, mobility, and workplace retirement contribute to shrinking social circles.

• What friendship evolved to do

Dr. Krems explains, through an evolutionary psychology lens, why our brains are wired for close bonds… and why modern society makes achieving them harder than ever.

• Why many retirees struggle to rebuild friendships

From lost routines to geographic distance, we explore the emotional and logistical reasons why connection becomes more challenging later in life.

• Practical science-backed ways to build “anti-lonely brains”

Specific, actionable strategies for creating and maintaining friendships in retirement.

• Quality vs. quantity

Why the power of friendship isn’t about having dozens of contacts—but having a small circle of people you can trust.

• Navigating the emotional vulnerability of making new friends

Dr. Krems shares insights on overcoming the discomfort, self-doubt, and social hesitation that many retirees feel.

• How to strengthen existing friendships

Retirement gives us precious time—but intentional effort is still required. Dr. Krems offers evidence-based ways to rekindle, deepen, or repair meaningful relationships.

Connect with Dr. Jaimie Krems: 

LinkedIn

UCLA Center for Friendship Research

UCLA Social Minds Lab

Join us as we post new episodes weekly!

Connect with Bob: [e-mail], LinkedIn, Facebook, YouTube.

Listen on: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart, TheRetiredMindset.com.

Episode Transcript

Jaimie (00:01):
We find friends, we make friends, we keep friends, we
navigate conflict with friends,all in our youth without
realizing it, right?
It's the air we breathe.
Now in later life, when werealize, oh, in this move, I
have to make new friends, andthis is kind of hard.
That's when we realize, oh,there's a challenge to solve

(00:21):
here.
Hey Mindsetters, welcome backto The Retired Mindset.

(00:53):
I'm your host, Bob Preston, andtoday I'm back on campus at
UCLA to record a very specialepisode.
And so to dispel the myth, itactually does rain in
California, which brings meinside, but I'm still on
location.
And today from the UCLA JamesWest Alumni Center.
We're going to be diving into atopic today that hits close to

(01:14):
home for so many people enteringor navigating retirement.
And that is friendship.
Seems basic, but it's really,really important.
We hear a lot about financialplanning, health, wellness,
travel, hobbies, all the funstuff in retirement.
But the thing that actuallypredicts your health, your
longevity, and even yourhappiness in retirement,
sometimes even more than diet orexercise, is the thing that

(01:36):
most of us don't talk aboutenough: friendship.
And yet, right now in America,we're facing what experts call a
loneliness epidemic.
Every other American says theydon't have enough social
interactions.
One in five single men reportshaving zero close friends.
And as retirees, thistransition, no coworkers

(01:57):
anymore, change in routine, kidsout of house, magnify many of
those same feelings.
But today, we're going to talkabout how friendship is not just
important, it may be the realsilver bullet for a thriving
retirement and long life.
And to help us unpack that, I'mbeyond thrilled to be
introducing someone who isleading the charge in

(02:18):
understanding the science behindfriendship and human
connection.
Dr.
Jamie Arona Krems, AssociateProfessor of Psychology at UCLA
and co-founder and director ofthe UCLA Center for Friendship
Research, the first academic hubdedicated to decoding and
strengthening human socialinteraction and connection.

(02:39):
Her work draws from cognitiveand evolutionary anthropology,
super interesting person, andshe studies how our minds do
friendship, why it's soessential, why it sometimes goes
wrong, and how we can buildanti-lonely brains.
She's published in top journalsfunded by a major NSF Career

(03:01):
Award grant, and her researchhas been featured everywhere
from the New York Times to theAtlantic.
She's also, just from a personalstandpoint, one of the most
genuine, humble, and friendlyindividuals I've met in a long,
long time.
It's going to be a fantasticepisode.
So have a listen and enjoyJamie Krems.

(03:21):
Hey mindsetters, I'm here oncampus with my new friend, Dr.
Jamie Krems, who's a psychologyprofessor here at UCLA.
And one of her specialty areasis friendship.
It's going to be a reallyexciting episode here in her
office, which is really specialbecause God dang it, it's
raining outside, right?
I was like, I have to wear myrain jacket to get over here.

(03:42):
But I'm so excited for this.
Thank you for having me.

Bob (03:46):
Jamie, may I call you Jamie?
Okay.
Dr.
Krems, or Jamie.
And we got a chance to meetlast weekend.

Jaimie (03:52):
Yeah.
Right?
Bruin Family Weekend.

Bob (03:54):
That's right.
And we started chatting, and Iwas introducing Jamie before her
presentation to all theseparents about friendship.
Really great session.
And so we got a chance to chat,but our listeners don't
probably know you.
So I'm hoping you can just kindof kick things off by
introducing yourself.
Yeah.
Tell us a little bit about yourgig here at UCLA, your

(04:15):
research, your specialty, andyou know, what makes you tick, I
guess.
Want to roll with that?

Jaimie (04:20):
Okay, that last question is a long one.

Bob (04:23):
That could that could get pretty deep.
Yeah.

Jaimie (04:24):
Yeah.
Let's say.
So my name is Jamie Krems.
I'm an associate professor ofpsychology here at UCLA.
I'm also the co-founder anddirector of the new UCLA Center
for Friendship Research, whichis a first of its kind and I
think only of its kind centereddedicated to understanding and
really strengthening humanfriendship.

(04:45):
So what what do I study?
I study friendship.
Really, if I if I were givingthe sort of elevator pitch, we
don't study adult friendship.
It's critical to understand.

Bob (04:57):
And you say we don't study, you mean like collectively as
human beings.
Yeah, right.

Jaimie (05:03):
Yeah.
Developmental psychologists arereally good at it.
Um but as soon as ourpopulation starts to be able to
have sex, then they're like, ohno, that's more interesting.
I know.
You know, sometimes.
Not all the time.
But so I I study humanfriendship.
I study how the mind doesfriendship, how we find friends,

(05:24):
make friends, keep friends.
And part of the the impetus forthat is just to really help
people survive the world today.

Bob (05:34):
And you are the founder of an actual, is it an institute or
a research center here at UCLA?
Or is it part of UCLA?

Jaimie (05:41):
It's part of UCLA.
It's the UCLA Center forFriendship Research.
Okay.
Yeah.
So with Victor Kaufman, MattLieberman, Carolyn Parkinson,
and Naomi Eisenberger, weco-direct it, and together we
sort of bring people in oneplace to talk about friendship,
to understand it, get on thesame page, do research on

(06:02):
friendship, galvanize acommunity because it's going to
take a lot of us to understandthis relationship.
And it's been great to have allof these grad students and
postdocs and staff come togetheracross disciplines.
We have people fromanthropology, communication,
obviously psychology.
And it's been kind of abeautiful thing to become
friends with these people.

Bob (06:23):
Well, and they are, there are cross, it's a cross, I
guess, dimensional and you knowintellectual endeavor to talk
about friendship, right?
There's so many psychology,like you said, anthropology.
I'm sure there's some sociologyin there as well.
Anyway, all these cool things.
So how did you get into this,right?
Was there a defining moment inyour life where you woke up one
day and said, I'm gonna be aspecialist in friendship?

Jaimie (06:46):
There wasn't exactly.
Okay.
But tell you the truth, whichis that when I was in my 20s
living in Philadelphia, I had abest friend of about 20 years,
and she came up for afriendsgiving that I had.
And a housemate I'd gone toBrynmarr with.
They met each other and theywere at a rough time in their
lives.
Fine.

(07:06):
And I found a few days laterthat actually they'd had this
long G chat conversation behindmy back, though on my computer,
exclusively about how much theyhated me.

Bob (07:17):
Oh my goodness.

Jaimie (07:19):
Yeah, it was not great, you know.
It started like, I don't wantto start anything between you
guys, but I just think friendsshould know.
I was like, mmm, this isn'tgonna be good.
And of course I read it, and Iof course I cut it and pasted it
into a Google Doc that is stillon my computer right now.
And it's 26 pages, but that'sfine.

Bob (07:38):
And how many years ago is this?
I mean, because that happenstoday all the time, right?
On social media.

Jaimie (07:42):
But I mean, this was this was oh 2007, eight, nine,
around then.

Bob (07:50):
All right.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
And it got pretty dark.
They were like, yeah, I wishsomething would happen to her
mother so she'd be all alone.

Bob (07:56):
Online bullying before it's time, kind of, you know.
Oh man.

Jaimie (07:59):
It was really awful.
And I I didn't realize at thetime that it wasn't about
aggression, it wasn't aboutjealousy, it was about
friendship.
It was about competing forfriendship.
And one of the ways to hurtpeople the most, particularly
women, is to destroy theirclosest friendships.

Bob (08:18):
Take away their friends, sure.

Jaimie (08:20):
And that can cripple anybody.
So I ugly cried, I ugly criedto friends, and eventually I
really came out of that wantingto know why friendships work,
what makes them fracture, howpeople fight over them because
we do.
So that was one thread.
And the the other thread issort of how I found my field,

(08:41):
which is through a friend whowas the singer and main
songwriter for this band, OkayGo, who did that treadmill
video.
And this gentleman, Damien, hestudied semiotics at Brown, and
he was a really brilliant guy totalk to some of the time.

Bob (08:55):
He was in the band.

Jaimie (08:56):
And he was the lead singer of the band.
Yeah.

Bob (08:58):
It's amazing how many Ivy League school kids start really
successful bands.

Jaimie (09:03):
That is true.
I mean, right?

Bob (09:04):
No, I mean like Vampire Weekend, uh Weezer.

Jaimie (09:07):
Weezer, yeah.

Bob (09:08):
Yeah, it was uh Columbia, I think, Harvard or something
like that.
I could go on and on.
I mean, there's tons of them,right?

Jaimie (09:14):
Yeah.
I mean, technically Damienstudied semiotics at Brown,
Brown, I think.
So that's not a real major, butwe'll give it to him.
Sorry, I'm so mean about that.

Bob (09:23):
Oh no.

Jaimie (09:25):
So he told me, listen, if you're working in music,
which I was at the time, I wasplaying poker, working in music,
trying to.

Bob (09:33):
Were you trying to be a professional poker player?

Jaimie (09:35):
I mean, I survived by doing it.
Did you really?

Bob (09:37):
Like the high-stakes tables and stuff?

Jaimie (09:40):
High stakes tables sometimes, but often online.
My dad played blackjack for aliving before.
Oh my God.

Bob (09:46):
I'm never playing Texas Hold'em with you.

Jaimie (09:48):
I do not play with people I like.
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely don't do that.

Bob (09:52):
I'm the guy at the table who usually crashes and burns in
like the first 15 minutes.

Jaimie (09:56):
I'm the person that's just like, oh, this is gonna be
fun.
But I I know numbers betterthan words from this.
You know, I just grew up thatway.
And so my dad's so cool.
And so I was living in Phillydoing these sort of weird
things, and Damian said, youknow, you really shouldn't work
in music because you're notgonna have the best

(10:16):
conversations.
And he wrote down a list ofbooks that I should read.
And on that list was a book byRichard Dawkins and a book by
the great Stephen Pinker.
And it was how the mind works.

Bob (10:29):
Is it still back here in your collection?

Jaimie (10:31):
It's somewhere down here.
I definitely see the Dawkinsones, and I have some Pinker
behind me for sure.
His new book, Common Knowledge,is unbelievably cool.
And I read that, and it'sanother friendship thing in a
way.
I read this book and I realizedoh my gosh, other people think
the way that I think.
I'm not alone.
And I found my community, andnow my best friends in the world

(10:56):
are, for the most part, otherprofessors who do
evolutionary-minded work inpsychology and anthropology.

Bob (11:02):
That is so cool.

Jaimie (11:03):
I'm really lucky.
Yeah.

Bob (11:05):
Okay.

Jaimie (11:05):
To found what I love and and a community at the same
time.

Bob (11:09):
And so you decide to get your doctorate and pursue that,
huh?

Jaimie (11:11):
I did.
I I sort of did a post back atPenn because my undergrad was in
classics in Near Easternarchaeology.
I was a Latin nerd.
That is not really useful forunderstanding evolutionary
biology, it turns out.
So I did studies in thebiological basis of behavior at
Penn with Rob Kurzban.
And then I went to Oxford tostudy with Robin Dunbar.

(11:36):
Wow.
And then, believe it or not,one of the best programs in the
world for evolutionary socialpsychology was at ASU at the
time.

Bob (11:44):
Okay.

Jaimie (11:44):
They were ramping up their research productivity.
And there was a lab that, veryimportantly to me, got people
jobs in academia, which isbasically like getting a job in
Hollywood.

Bob (11:55):
Well, ASU has some majors like that, huge um broadcasting
and journalism.
Yeah.
I mean, one of the best.
They're like the tops in thecountry.
Yeah.
It's Vanna Guthrie, right?
She graduated from ArizonaState.

Jaimie (12:04):
So it's a great place.
And now I sit before you atUCLA and I'm never leaving.

Bob (12:10):
Oh my gosh, I'm so glad we met.
It's so so great talking toyou, and you're such a great
conversationalist.
Oh my God, I could sit here andtalk to you all day.
So when when you gave yourpresentation last weekend, you
talked about friendship beingjust incredibly potent and
almost essential in our lives,right?
For our physical health, mentalhealth, and even our longevity,
right?
Like you could live longer ifyou have friends.

(12:32):
So can you talk about that andwhat the research shows about
friendship?
And let's start dialing this intowards retired folks if you
can.

Jaimie (12:40):
Yeah.
Okay.

Bob (12:41):
So I'm retired, I've been retired for about two years, and
that's our listenership,retired mindset.
And it's all about living yourbest life in retirement.
And so I've been really intomaking friends in retirement,
reconnecting, as we alreadytalked about.
So tell us about that.
Why is it so important?

Jaimie (12:56):
I mean, friendship is a silver bullet in a lot of ways.
And I can get on my soapbox allday.

Bob (13:02):
Oh, go for it.

Jaimie (13:04):
I mean having friends is associated with living a
healthier life.
So it's related to your hearthealth.

Bob (13:11):
Because you go do stuff, right?
You go you go do stuff withyour friends.

Jaimie (13:14):
Do stuff together, but also the signal of having social
support tells your body you'resafe.

Bob (13:20):
Right.

Jaimie (13:21):
Yeah.
So challenges seem lessthreatening.
The world seems lessthreatening.
And so your heart is lesslikely to sort of go a little
bit crazy on you.
You sleep better.
So lacking friends is actuallyrelated to the frequency and
intensity of nightmares.
You're less stressed.

(13:41):
Your immune system isfunctioning better.
When you have friends, you'remore likely to recover from
breast cancer surgery.
You recover from issues like alittle cut more quickly when you
feel supported.

Bob (13:52):
Absolutely.
I mean, your body can be allthat, right?

Jaimie (13:57):
It's amazing.
So you're like having a friendis almost like an external pool
of resources.

Bob (14:03):
Yeah.

Jaimie (14:03):
So if I have a friend over here, I can count on, I can
have my own energy dedicated tohealing myself.
And that is incredible for thebody and for longevity.
What the data suggest is thatnot having friends has the same
effect on your mortality assmoking 15 cigarettes a day.

Bob (14:26):
That's incredible.

Jaimie (14:27):
That is mind-blowing.

Bob (14:29):
That's mind blowing.

Jaimie (14:30):
Yeah.
So you are going to live alonger life.
And for older adults who areone in four older adults who are
socially isolated.
And that can absolutelyincrease in retirement because
100%, much of your community wasat work every day.
And you didn't have to put inany effort to see them because
the effort you were putting infor your job was also social for

(14:52):
most people.

Bob (14:53):
Right.

Jaimie (14:53):
And when that gets taken away, especially if it's
abrupt, that can have a hugeimpact on your health and
well-being, how you feel everyday, if you feel supported.
And then what you have to do isdedicate time to seeing people,
prioritize seeing people andmake the effort when before it
was just rote.

Bob (15:13):
Right.

Jaimie (15:14):
You know?
And if you have that in yourlife, if you have those friends
in your life, if you have thatsupport in your life, you're
less likely to have a heartattack.
Even if you have a partner.

Bob (15:25):
Yeah.

Jaimie (15:26):
The friends matter.
It's not just the partner.
And particularly today, forfolks who are going to retire,
people are getting married lessand getting married later.

Bob (15:36):
Probably going to live longer.

Jaimie (15:37):
Probably going to live longer.
Probably a longer time inretirement.
But you know, the isolationcomponent that friends combat is
related to a 32% increase inrisk of stroke, a 50% increase
in risk of dementia.
I think last year, older adultswho didn't have support were

(15:58):
the victims of like phishingschemes and fraud to the tune of
almost $2 billion.
Exactly.
And the last thing I'll sayabout this, which I really love,
is that the data suggest thatboth feelings of well-being and

(16:19):
actual true objective healthmeasures for older adults,
people 65 and up, so people whomight be most likely to be
retired, right?
I mean, I I want to say that Iwould retire tomorrow, but in
reality, I'll do this till theywheel me out of here.
So for people who are 65 andup, having friends is the single

(16:42):
best predictor of happinessover and above being close to
your adult children, contactwith your neighbors, and contact
with other family members.
It's friends.
Friends make you happy.
And in fact, one study by myfriend and colleague Bill
Chopic.

Bob (16:59):
Which are UCSB friends?

Jaimie (17:01):
Bill is actually at Michigan State.

Bob (17:03):
Yeah, I forgot.
I've heard you mention his namebefore.

Jaimie (17:06):
He's an amazing friendship researcher, such a
fun and irreverent guy.
And Bill has looked at peoplewho went to Harvard.
So it was a group of men whowent to Harvard, and he was able
to follow up their progressthrough the Red Book, which is
sort of like every five yearsthey say how they're doing.

(17:27):
And so what he has found isthat the quality and the
quantity of their friendshipswhile they were at Harvard,
which was measured, I think, inthe 1960s, and he got a hold of
those data, predicted people'spositivity and well-being 50
years later.
Wow.
So the friends you make earlycan predict your friendship

(17:48):
later, meaning that you caninvest in them now and get
returns forever.
But I can't help myself.
One study that I'll mentionsuggests that reconnecting with
friends, which I know we'regoing to talk about that.

Bob (18:01):
Yeah, we're going to.

Jaimie (18:02):
That people are hesitant to do it sometimes.
They're as nervous to talk to afriend they haven't connected
with as they are to talk to astranger.

Bob (18:09):
Yeah.

Jaimie (18:10):
But when you reconnect with a friend, they are so happy
to hear from you, more happythan you would imagine.
And so if you just practicethat conversation once or twice,
that makes your anxiety godown, you reconnect, and then
you realize these amazingbenefits of friendship.
Which by the way, redound notjust to, you know, it's not just

(18:32):
for you, it's for your lovedones too.
When you have friends and youare better supported, you are a
better friend and you are betterable to support your lover,
your family, and so on.

Bob (18:42):
And you're touching someone else's life.
You are at the same time,right?

Jaimie (18:46):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
That's the sort of sine quanton of life for me.
Yeah.

Bob (18:52):
Okay, Jamie, incredible description of the importance of
friendship.
I know one of the things when Iretired, you you you touched on
this.
Kind of you I lost my identity,identity a little bit, right?
I I was uh you know I owned myown business.
I was really wrapped up in thejob.
I had a routine every day.
I knew what I was walking intoevery day, and I knew the hours

(19:15):
I was going to be working andwho I was gonna be speaking with
and the priorities on my day.
I mean, these are all reallyimportant things.
So and then you lose that, youlose your community, as you
mentioned.
I lost my identity, I lost youstart ask asking yourself these
questions.
Well, who am I?
And for me, that who am Iturned into, wow, I've got this

(19:36):
incredible network of friendsfrom you know 50 years of
childhood and college and highschool, many of whom I've sort
of cast aside along the waybecause I was working so hard.
So, you know, really it was aneye-opener for me, and I just
made it a priority to reconnect.

Jaimie (19:50):
Yeah.

Bob (19:51):
So tell us about that.
I mean, does that have the sameimpact or the same power or
potency as you you describe itin friendship as just like
meeting someone new?

Jaimie (20:00):
Oh, absolutely.
The quality of yourfriendships, that's what
matters.
And so if you reconnect withsomebody, that is just as
valuable as making a new friend.

Bob (20:10):
Well, and you know what I found is that they've changed.

Jaimie (20:12):
Yeah.

Bob (20:12):
Right?
So I is making a new friend.
I had coffee here on campuslast weekend with a friend of
mine that I knew in college.
And she had always had a littlecrutch on each other.
So it's really nice to see her,but I know, right?
And here we are, you know, 40,50 years later, whatever.
And oh my God, you know, youand and she has this amazing
career and all this kind ofthing.
So it's just so fun.

(20:33):
You know, and it felt like wehad never even missed a dime,
you know, missed a beat.

Jaimie (20:37):
So one of the great mysteries in friendship research
right now, and there are many,is really when do friends become
family like that, where youdon't have to continue those
touches.
Yeah.
And somehow you pick up whereyou left off.
Is it a property of thefriendship?
Is it a property of the personthat you are your stage of life?

(20:57):
Exactly.
Right.

Bob (20:58):
I mean, these things become more important, you know, as
you start to realize, hey, Ihave a limited number of years
left on earth.
And while I'm here, I want tomake the most of them and being
connected with friends andfamily is I yeah, right at the
top of my list.
I guess.

Jaimie (21:12):
Yeah.
And so we'd mentioned when wewere talking before, I showed
you this notebook with a frog onit that says nope.
And there were some people whocame into your life that you
were like, nah, I don't reallywant them in my in my convoy.
And there's something calledthe convoy model of friendship.
So as we age, we keep some ofour friends and maybe we

(21:32):
jettison some friends.
And one of the best thingsabout growing up and sort of
being of about retirement age isthat people have fewer but
better friendships.
They've jettisoned those sortof instrumental friends, those
ambivalent friendships that are,you know, maybe the kids call
frenemies.
Those are gone.

(21:53):
And the friendships that wekeep in older life, in older
adulthood, in in later life arethe ones that really nourish us.
And I find that to bebeautiful.
There are so many people rightnow, and I actually have some
data we're about to publish onthis, that wish they could end a
friendship.
And these are mostly people intheir 20s, 30s, 40s that have

(22:18):
these friendships.
And oh, this person is friendswith my other friends.
I I I can't get rid of them.

Bob (22:23):
Yeah.

Jaimie (22:23):
But they do not nourish me.
If anything, they are a drainon my life.

Bob (22:27):
It's incredible how long people will put up with that,
right?

Jaimie (22:30):
They do, but at some point, you know, maybe it's age,
confidence, experience, you'rejust like, nope.

Bob (22:39):
I couldn't agree with that more.
I think there's a tolerancelevel I've found in me, and
maybe it's my patience withpeople, I'm not sure.
But inside me, that the olderI've gotten and the more the
fewer years I've got left, Iguess.
I don't want to say I've becomeless tolerant, but it's been
easier for me to kind of stepaway from friendships that I
don't that I know don't nourishme.
And some of those friendshipswere, you know, friendships that

(23:02):
my spouse had.
And I got dragged along tothese ridiculous things and had
to put up with people, you know,and it's like, yeah, this guy
is not somebody or woman I can'trelate to.
So, you know what?
I start choosing not to go.
That kind of thing.
Because I just I like being thebest me.
Yeah.
And when I'm around people likethat, then I'm not, you know,
and I just can't, I just can'tstand it.

(23:22):
So let's uh transition intokind of another cool twist on
this.
I mean, I know you look atfriendship from an anthropology
point of view, right?
So from an evolutionary, Iguess we could say, perspective,
is there a foundation infriendship that is rooted to
back, go back like theNeanderthal days or cavemen
days, you know?
And is there something deep inour brain that makes friendship

(23:45):
essential in our lives?

Jaimie (23:47):
Yeah, I mean, I would say even earlier than that,
okay.
There are a lot of socialmammals that have friendship.

Bob (23:53):
Oh, yeah.

Jaimie (23:54):
We probably diverged from our primate ancestors five
to seven million years ago.
And we know that primates likebonobos, chimpanzees, baboons,
they all have what looks likefriendship.
Uh dolphins have it, giraffeshave it, macaques have it,
horses have it.

Bob (24:11):
Oh, horses are extremely intelligent.

Jaimie (24:14):
They really are.
And I mean, cows have it too.
So when you separate two cowfriends, they're stress spikes.
And when you put them backtogether, their stress goes
down.

Bob (24:23):
Elephants grieve over their lost family members who have
been slaughtered by poachers.
You see, you see theseheartbreaking videos about that.

Jaimie (24:30):
I can't watch those.
I know.
Yeah.
And I think it's absolutely thecase that we've had what we'd
call friendship for a very longtime in our evolutionary
history.
And natural selection buildsmachines to solve adaptive
problems.
So, what is an adaptiveproblem?
It's a problem related tosurvival and reproduction.

(24:51):
So, how do we get our genesinto the next generation?
Well, you might ask, what doesfriendship solve, right?
But what friendship solves isthe problem of getting help when
we're in need.
So there's this evolutionarytheory of friendship we call the
bankers' paradox.
And what it suggests is thatfriends have evolved to act,

(25:14):
excuse me, friends have evolvedto act as a kind of social
insurance.
And they give us preferentialaccess to resources, and they
act as that social insurance,ensuring we can get those
resources when we're most inneed and might otherwise be
unlikely to get them fromstrangers.
And so here's where thebankers' paradox comes in.

(25:35):
When we are most in need iswhen strangers are least likely
to invest in us, the same waythat banks don't give loans to
people who need the money, theygive loans to people who are
pretty wealthy and can pay itback, right?
So illness, injury, and otherhardships are inevitable, have
been throughout our evolutionaryhistory.
And when we are most in need,that's when our friends who have

(25:58):
a stake in our welfare, they'rethe ones who invest in us.
And if they have a stake in ourcontinued welfare, they might
preferentially invest in us overother people who might be in
similar need.
Helping us stay alive andhelping us survive so that when
they inevitably face their owntimes of illness and injury,
we're alive, able, and willingto invest in them.

(26:19):
Friends are an external socialinsurance.
And so this theorizing suggeststhat friends should help us
survive times of hardship andevidence from animal behavior,
evidence from cross-culturalethnography, so work done by
anthropologists in the fieldwith small-scale societies,
evidence from historicaldisasters.

(26:41):
I love some of this stuff.
So if you were a member of theDonner Party, that probably
didn't go well for you, but youwere more likely to survive if
you had friends in the party.
So same thing.

Bob (26:51):
More ways in one, but we won't go there.

Jaimie (26:53):
True, true.
And um even some work in sortof um modern climate disasters.
So blizzards, hurricanes, ifyou have friends, you are more
likely to survive, suggestingthat friends really do fulfill
this evolved function of helpingus survive when it matters
most.
And other people might not bewilling to invest in us, but our

(27:16):
friends do.

Bob (27:17):
Incredible insight.
And I and I love the examples.
You know, it's kind of like thephrase, you know, I got your
back.
You know, it's like, it's niceto know that that somebody has
your back, right?
Whether you're a the Donnerparty or surviving or how people
during natural disasters pulltogether, it kind of comes back
to the basic human nature,helping people in other
countries or other parts of theworld and just rallying to

(27:39):
support them.
So it's really, reallyinteresting.
They're not necessarily, butthe human spirit kind of can
come together.

Jaimie (27:44):
Yeah, and you can think of them that way.
And if you humanize people, youget this feeling of fellowship
that can go beyond our sort offriend circles.

Bob (27:53):
Yeah.
So I came in with a lot ofquestions I was going to answer.
And sometimes during theserecordings, I'll like I'll I'll
get a new twist on it becauseI'm curious, you know?
And so this is kind of anexample of that.
I'm a pretty I'm pretty much ofan extrovert.
Like I'm a the personality typethat I'm an Aries male, you
know, so I tend to be a littleimpulsive.
I I take risks with friendshipsthat sometimes irritate people,

(28:16):
but usually they like itbecause I, you know, I reach
out, I make contact, and thatkind of thing.
But you know, some people willsay to me, Well, you're an
extrovert, I'm an introvert.
I I can I I can't do that.
I can't do that like you do.
Um that's not me.
And so I guess my question is,is is personality type part of
it?
Or because so many peopleretire and then they become

(28:37):
lonely or they become isolated.
And so then they're sittingthere going, Oh, this is so
hard, what do I do?
And so I guess I'm just kind ofcurious, is it, you know, is it
personality, is it brainwiring, or is it just our modern
life that's changed, or isthere kind of a mismatch between
old brain and new environment?
I'm so it's kind of a broadquestion.

Jaimie (28:56):
There's a lot of different things.

Bob (28:57):
But I think you get the drift, you know.
And I'm just curious, like, dopeople who have different
personality types, I guess,first question was kind of do
they pursue this differently, oris it the same model for
everybody that we should allfollow?
So let's start with personalitybecause we have good data
there.
Okay.
And the data suggests thatextroverts have more friends,
they're perceived as morefriendly and they'd be more fun,
right?
Yeah.
And they even have higherfriendship satisfaction.

(29:19):
So they seem more satisfiedwith the friends that they get.
So we have some data there,which is a little bit surprising
because there are really very,very few studies on friendship
in general.
And in fact, the study that Iam thinking of that found that
extroverts have more satisfyingfriendships in that study.
It was like, why has no onestudied this?
This is kind of an importantquestion.

(29:40):
Sure, yeah that people want toknow.
So we know that personalitydoes matter, but in addition, is
that friendship involvesteachable skills.
So we think that friendshipfeels like breathing, right?
Right.
And it does, especially whenwe're young.
And that's sort of an insight.
Instance of what we would callin ep psych instinct blindness.

(30:04):
So instinct blindness refers tohow good we are at solving
adaptive problems.
We find friends, we makefriends, we keep friends, we
navigate conflict with friends,all in our youth without
realizing it, right?
It's the air we breathe.
Now in later life, when werealize, oh, I just moved, I

(30:25):
have to make new friends, andthis is kind of hard.
That's when we realize, oh,there's a challenge to solve
here.
So we were blind to theinstincts that helped us find,
make, keep friends to realizefriendship in youth.
Now that we realize there arethose challenges to solve, well,
okay, how do we do that?
And one of the ways that wemight do that is simply by

(30:49):
studying it.
We don't do that enough.
I can't say that enough.
So there are teachablecompetencies, though, that allow
us to solve it.
Even though it feels like magicand innate, especially when
we're young, we can teachempathy in youth.
We can help people justpractice the script.

(31:10):
So if you tell your introvertfriend, just talk to me, pretend
I'm an old friend and call meup.
That practice, and thenespecially getting feedback on
that, that can actually calmthem down so that they make that
reconnection.
And that reconnection can be soimportant.
And in today's day and age, you know, you you might take a

(31:30):
risk and send a text tosomebody.
And then you sit there, youknow, is that person gonna text
back?
I wonder when.
It might be a couple days, andyou're thinking, oh, this person
hates me or something.
And then lo and behold, youknow, no, they were just busy
and they get they and they, oh,thanks for reaching out.
You know, and it's like it'slike it's so it's so silly.
It is because it's like, youknow, in in older times, it was
probably instantaneous, and nowwe have to wait.

(31:51):
You know, so this delay ofgratification on just getting
acknowledgement that, yeah, Iwant to I want to connect.

Jaimie (31:56):
I want to connect, I want to see you.
And if you do it, you know, andthen that's all right.

Bob (32:00):
The other thing is don't do it too fast because it seems
like you're creepy, you know.
Like, like there are all theserules, right?
You know what I'm saying?
Like if all of a sudden youtext somebody, it's like bam,
they respond right away.
You're kind of, oh you know.
What are you doing on yourrespond so quick to me?
You know, I mean, so I'velearned also just not to read
too much into that shit, youknow.

Jaimie (32:17):
No, none of it really means anything.
Um, but uh another componentthat I I should mention, you you
said mismatch, right?
So one of the ways that weratchet up our friendships, one
of the ways that we makefriendships closer and richer is
by asking for help, asking forfavors, and by giving help in

(32:38):
favors.
This is how we avoidexploitation because friends can
exploit us if they're badfriends, right?
So we give help, they givehelp.
We give help, they give help.
And this relationship becomescloser and deeper and closer and
deeper over time.
It's what we'd call an upwardspiral of valuation.
So the more valuable you becometo me, the more valuable I

(33:00):
become to you simply because Ivalue you and I'm gonna be the
person who's a lot of people.

Bob (33:04):
Well, you start to trust them more too.
Like when like there was thisuh podcast, I think it was Brene
Brown, and it was talking aboutputting marbles in a jar, you
know.
Yeah.
And the the the the trustissue, the trust marbles go in
jars one at a time.
And pretty soon you have afriendship where the marble jar
is full.
You know, and I thought thatwas a really cool analogy, you
know.
Because you can say, okay, wellwhat friends of yours have full

(33:26):
jars?
You know, you can start gettinginto these really interesting
topics that anyway.

Jaimie (33:30):
The ones that tell you the truth even when you don't
want to hear them.

Bob (33:33):
Right, to break you the bad news, you know.

Jaimie (33:35):
So there's a book behind me by Dan Hrushka, an
anthropologist from ASU, and hediscusses some small-scale
societies where that's actuallya conscious strategy to start
with small trade and build up.
The reason that this intersectswith technology and mismatch is
because today, instead ofasking for a small favor, will

(33:58):
you bring me soup when I'm sick?
Will you give me a ride to thedoctor or the airport?
Will you help me hang mywhiteboard or my television or
my mirror?
We have Instacart, we haveUber, we have Uber Eats, we have
TaskRabbit, and it can feel somuch easier than it's ever felt

(34:20):
before to just click a buttonand get help from a stranger.
But when we are doing that,there's the possibility, I don't
have the data yet, that doingthat actually hinders that
upward spiral of valuationbecause you're not allowing
someone to help you.
And what we know, and this iscalled the Ben Franklin effect,

(34:43):
one of my Philly homeboys, um,another Francophile, is that
actually helping someone makesyou like them more.
So asking for help and gettingit can make the person who helps
you like you more.
And so we're going to do somework that actually uses that as

(35:06):
a potential intervention.

Bob (35:08):
I love that.
That last part you shared.
I grew up in SouthernCalifornia.
Yeah, unlike you.
And and uh so I was a big UCLAbasketball fan.

Jaimie (35:17):
Gotcha.

Bob (35:18):
I've I've told this story on the podcast before, but
sorry, I gotta I gotta tellabout it.

Speaker 1 (35:21):
You had James Harden, right?

Bob (35:22):
What's up?

Speaker 1 (35:23):
Did you have James Harden?

Bob (35:24):
We had Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and we had uh we had Jamal
Wilkes, Bill Walton, you know.

Jaimie (35:30):
Love Bill Walton.

Bob (35:31):
Bill Walton was brought up last night, the event I was
telling you about, because itwas all Grateful Dead music, you
know.
So there was some Bill Waltonnarration in this thing.

Jaimie (35:38):
Did you have any Philadelphia 76?

Bob (35:41):
No, no, no.

Jaimie (35:42):
Okay, well maybe Dr.
J.

Bob (35:43):
I'll give you Dr.
J.

Jaimie (35:45):
Okay, all right.
You know what?
You can do better.
Y

Bob (35:47):
Anyway, my hero growing up was John Wooden.
I mean, you can't walk aroundcampus without hearing or
seeing, you know, images of JohnWooden.
And he was he had a lot ofisms, isms, he had a lot of
favorite quotes, and he had thepyramid of success and all this
stuff.
But one of my favorite quotesof John Woodens, and this goes
to what you were saying, is thatthe biggest joy in life is to

(36:08):
help another.

Jaimie (36:09):
Absolutely.

Bob (36:09):
Right?

Jaimie (36:10):
Yeah.

Bob (36:10):
The basic fundamental pleasure in life is connecting
with someone and helping themand see what comes out of that.
And I just think that is sopowerful.
And so I've tried to live mylife that way, right?
I do a lot of volunteeringwork.
I mean, obviously you see me oncampus doing that.

Jaimie (36:23):
Yeah, the parents council.

Bob (36:24):
Yeah, right.
And so I don't have to do that,but I want to.
You know, I also get to be oncampus and have separate, you
know, kind of line for mydaughter.
But and and meet amazing peopletoo.
I mean, I I've got so manyfriends now in the Parents
Council, all because my daughterchose UCLA.
It's crazy.
One of the things I thinkpeople have to remember is that
helping people is a joy.
Yeah.

Jaimie (36:44):
So asking for help allows other people to be
joyful.
Yeah.
It's not a burden.
Well, in today's society too, Imean, there's pride I think
sometimes in saying, oh, I'mgoing to be self-sufficient.
I don't need any help.
I can do this on my own.
I can live by myself.
I don't need other people in mylife, right?
I mean, there's it's almostlike this badge you wear that
I'm like an independent.
Yeah, I'm a lone wolf.

(37:05):
And you know, I think maybeespecially men maybe have that
attitude.
Yeah.

Bob (37:10):
But certainly driven women can as well.
I don't know.
I'm just uh you're the expert.

Jaimie (37:14):
Well, a lot of people have that attitude.
And it's a, you know, I love alot of American values,
including individualism, but itis a very individualistic value.
Yeah, yeah, right.
Okay, let's go on here.
You you have a phrase I'veheard you talk about called the
anti-loonly brain.
Yes.

Bob (37:29):
And you know, I if if uh we've already touched on some of
this stuff, some of thequestions might start to be be
repetitive, but we can takedifferent angles on it either
way.
So I guess where I'm going withthis one is okay, if I'm
feeling if I'm retired and I'mfeeling stuck, I'm feeling
lonely, I'm feeling isolated,and I'm just like, ah, this is
so hard.
I feel vulnerable.
If I reach out to this person,I'm afraid of rejection.

(37:52):
You know, so we touched uponthis a little bit earlier, but
like are there specific, likekind of like going to the gym,
you know, specific routines orexercises.
You you touched on some of thatstuff, but are there things, I
guess, that we could give our llisteners actionable things to
do, like right away, like thisweek.

Jaimie (38:08):
Yes.

Bob (38:09):
Here's here's the recipe, or here's the instructions, or
here's your workout for thisweek, you know?

Jaimie (38:13):
Yeah.

Bob (38:14):
Tell us.
Okay.

Jaimie (38:15):
Okay.
So here's your workout for thisweek.
Practice the script for whenyou want to text or call an old
friend.
And I would say call thatperson, because what the data
suggests is that synchronouscommunication and particularly
communication that's at the sametime where you're allowed to
laugh together, that is whatconnects people.

(38:37):
So humor is a huge part ofshared reality and coordination.
We overlook humor with aresearch scientist in my lab,
Dr.
David Pinsoff.
We have a theory of humor thatreally paints it as a
coordination tool.
So allow yourself to be alittle nervous, sure.
Practice what you're gonna sayso you can decrease your nerves,

(38:59):
reconnect with somebody thatwas important to you.
I was just talking to my goodfriend today, Lisa Diamond,
who's a world-famous sexresearcher and does incredible
work with trans folks in Utah,where there are a lot of Mormons
and there's a lot of shamearound this.
And she is just such a beacon,such a light.

(39:21):
And she's been a really goodfriend to me in hard times too.
And I've I leaned on her thismorning.
And one of the things that LisaDiamond told me this morning
was that the most life-changingthing she has asked her students
to do is to identify one or twopeople that you want to be

(39:42):
closer to.
And if you do nothing else thisyear, spend the time to make
that happen.
And she still gets emails fromher students about how that has
changed their lives.
And that to me is so moving.
So identify the people you wantto be closer to and prioritize
it.
It looks like from time usagesurveys that Americans between

(40:05):
15 and 65 spend about 44 minutesa day on average with a friend.
The time we spend with friendsis much decreased from 2003,
about 20 hours less a month withfriends.
And the time that teens spendwith friends has plummeted.
What goes up is time alone,controlling, right?

(40:28):
So prioritize friends.

Bob (40:31):
The pandemic didn't help, right?

Jaimie (40:32):
The pandemic didn't help, but it was a trend before
that.
It was really a trend in thesmartphone era.
So one of the things that wemight suggest is that yes, time
is rough.
It is hard to make time forfriends, particularly when you
have family who might need you.

(40:53):
But if you can prioritizefriends, do it.
And one thing that we havelearned from small-scale
societies is the amount of timethat people spend doing
bullshit, doing nothing.
Time use surveys suggest thatthese people spend a lot of time
just shooting the shit witheach other.

(41:13):
We don't do that today becausewe consider that not productive
or we don't have time to do it.
We don't prioritize it.
Understandable, if time is aproblem, then use the time in
such a way that you can, aspeople do in small-scale
societies, do chores together.

(41:34):
If you have to run errands, runerrands together.
Yeah, it's not, you know,drinks at Felix or Bar Benjamin,
but it's still time together.

Bob (41:45):
Yeah.

Jaimie (41:46):
And doing time together, doing the shoot the breeze
stuff together on your longdrive to Beverly Hills, that's
not nothing.

Bob (41:54):
Yeah.
You don't have to have a momentthat you're going to share on
Facebook, right?
Like these party scenes and ohGod, look at that person lives
such a great life.
And you know, why am I such aloser?
You know, there's this sort ofno, just just you go talk to
your neighbor at the mailbox ormeet somebody for coffee in the
morning or whatever.
I think one of the things too,and I just thought of this this
mor just now, because I it'spretty funny, but is you know,

(42:17):
maybe the risk that you take indoing what you're talking about,
you know, it's hard.
It's hard to say, okay, I'mgonna, I'm gonna maybe it's
you're you're texting a person,picking up the phone and calling
might at first be intimidatingbecause you don't know if you're
interrupting them or you're youdon't want to intrude.
But maybe that first text, Imean, is there a number that
they should strive for?

(42:37):
Maybe it's one just this week,you know, to take your exercises
you mentioned, practice, andthen maybe reach out to, I mean,
just one person, right?
Might be the way to go, right?
And then, okay, that was cool.
Don't send some mass email,right?
Set, you know, it's all got tobe genuine and connect and talk
and take the risk, I guess.
That's what my mind is.

(42:57):
And if they don't want toreconnect or if they don't want
to be friends, well, that's onthem.
What do you got to lose?
That's kind of my attitude.
Now I talked about being anAries band, that's my approach,
but I know for other peoplemaybe they're a little bit more
cautious.
And that's important too.
But uh to get over that hump, Ithink is really critical,
especially for my retiredlisteners.
You gotta do it, you gotta getout there and you got to make
something happen, right?

Jaimie (43:18):
Yeah, you know, one of the things that I tell my
students, I teach a 350-personsocial psychology course.
And sometimes students arereluctant to speak up and ask
questions.
They don't want to be wrong orlook dumb.
And one of the things that Itell them is that if you have a
question, someone else in theroom probably has it too.
And so after I gave that talkat Bruin Family Weekend, a woman

(43:41):
came up to me and she said, youknow, I've actually just made
about 19 friends.
I was like, What?

Bob (43:47):
That is so cool.
A parent said that to you?
Yeah.
Oh my god.

Jaimie (43:50):
How did you have to do that?

Bob (43:51):
It sounds like me on campus at UCLA.
I mean, I just walk around andI stop, I stood and say, Oh,
that looks interesting.
You know, what's going on?
Right.
I mean, yeah.

Jaimie (43:58):
So she was curious.
And what happened?
This actually wasn't what shedid, but someone else went on to
next door, that app, and said,I'm lonely and I'd like to make
some friends.
And her loneliness was theimpetus for other people to say,
me too.
And they ended up gettingcoffee, and they're not all
going to coffee every weektogether, but they established a

(44:21):
routine that allowed forcommunity and sort of the the
ingredients to making friendsare repeated contact and mutual
attraction.

Bob (44:29):
Yeah.

Jaimie (44:30):
If you meet new people, you're not going to like them
all, right?
There are going to be somenopes in there.

Bob (44:34):
Sure.

Jaimie (44:34):
Of course.
But there are going to be somepeople that you do like.
And if you see them repeatedly,you know, it's a low-cost way
to say, yeah, me too.
I'm lonely too.

Bob (44:46):
Let's get together.
Yeah.

Jaimie (44:48):
Yeah.

Bob (44:48):
It's funny too, because sometimes you'll meet people
that are quite judgmental,right?
And you can sense that, andmaybe they're being standoffish,
or maybe they're being, youknow, maybe the first they maybe
they're thinking you know,you're a nope or something like
that.
But I'm a big Ted Lasso fan.
And we were talking about this,I think it was before.
I hope it was before.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it was kind of like uh thisTed Lasso quote in an episode

(45:08):
where his quote was uh becurious, not judgmental.
And then he can then he goeson, like, for example, they're
playing darts with this guyRupert.
And uh he says, Rupert, ifyou'd asked me, do I play a lot
of darts?
I would have replied, yes, sir.
You know, and instead he tookhim, he underestimated him.
And so that's one of my mantrasis be curious not judgmental.

(45:29):
Like if you meet somebody andyou're, huh, that's interesting,
or you get a text from somebodyyou're not sure about, or maybe
it seems a little threateningor weird, just ask them.
You know?
Yeah.
Hey, what's going on with you?
Yeah, what's going on with you?
Is it are you, you know, isthis like, are you I I mean, I
probably not bold enough to say,well, are you hitting on me?
Or like, are you like you justwant to be friends or where you
want me for coffee?
And then continue thatquestioning.
And I think that gets that kindof build-up thing you're

(45:50):
talking about, right?
That absolutely kind ofclimbing the ladder of
developing friendships.
But you got to take that risk,right?

Jaimie (45:56):
So it really, it's someone does.
And the thing is, if you wantto take that risk, I cannot tell
you how many other people areout there that want to as well.
And we often misperceive that.

Bob (46:07):
For sure.
You're gonna laugh at thisbecause as I was getting ready
this morning to walk over here,I'm a big music fan.
And one of the other areaswhere I give back to is to this
organization called Playing forChange.
I don't know if they're here inSanta Monica.
Oh.
Right.
And I don't know if you've everheard of them, but it's a
nonprofit organization,nonpartisan, that just believes
that music can change the world.

(46:28):
Yeah.
That's their whole thing.
And so they do these playingfor change videos where they
have a song that they pick andthey they record artists from
all over the world in differentparts of the world playing in
their own, you know, local andnative way of singing or or
dancing or whatever.
And the one this morning, thethe old war song, Why Can't We

(46:49):
Be Friends?

Jaimie (46:50):
No way.

Bob (46:51):
And why can't we be friends?
I know, right?
And I was like, oh my God, whata perfect way to start the day,
going to talk to Jamie.
So and I and that, so that'sthe question.
Well, why not?
You know?
Oh, you're gonna reach out tothe person?
Yeah, why not?
Why can't we be friends?
You know, I mean, why not?
Yeah.
Right?
So I think that's huge.
Now, okay, let's talk aboutgender differences here.
Men and women, I think women,is it do you think it's true

(47:14):
that women are just kind ofmaybe a little bit more social
from a from a like theVenus-Mars perspective, and then
men are maybe not as reluctantto take that risk, or maybe more
reluctant, excuse me, to takethat risk and maybe, oh, you
know, kind of we talked about itearlier.
I want to be self-sufficient.
I don't need anybody in mylife.

Jaimie (47:29):
So there's part of that, but if that were the sole
reason for men being hit harderby what we call the friend
recession, so the quality andquantity of our friendships
today are much less than theywere in the year 2000, the year
1990.
And men are particularly hardhit.
So in the US, one in fivesingle men has zero friends.

Bob (47:51):
That is shocking.
I mean, it's just like it'svery sad.

Jaimie (47:54):
It really is.

Bob (47:55):
And it might even be more for retired people.
I don't know.

Jaimie (47:58):
I think it's possible isolation might play a role
there.
And if people aren't married orreaching out, men are typically
less likely to do the reachingout than women are, whether
that's to family or to friends.
And so their women are a littlebit better at reaching out and
maintaining these relationships.

Bob (48:17):
You think their defense mechanisms in that regard are
maybe a little lower?
I don't I don't want togeneralize.
I mean, everyone's different,and I'm trying, I'm not trying
to put a generalization on womenor men.
But I mean, I'm just wonderingif that's more common trait in
women to like, yeah, okay, I'llbe eat you for coffee.
Whereas a guy might be, what'sthis guy want out of me?
You know, why is this why youthink?
I don't know.

Jaimie (48:36):
So actually, if anything, there's one study, and
it's just one study thatsuggests the reverse is true.

Bob (48:42):
Really?
Okay.

Jaimie (48:42):
And that what makes women more hesitant to develop
friendships is that they havelower trust in others.

Bob (48:48):
Oh.

Jaimie (48:48):
But there are some really long-standing sex and
gender differences in friendshipthat might be related to that
because women tend to formfewer, closer friendships.
And if you're going to becloser and sort of share this
evaluative information thatcould be ammo against you one
day, you want to really trustthat person.

(49:09):
So the bar for trust might behigher in female friendships.
By contrast, men tend to havefewer looser friendships, sort
of group-based friendships.
And they find that reallyenriching.
Um, they're also consideredshoulder-to-shoulder
friendships.
Let's get some beer and watchthe game, you know.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Which is what I want to do.
Wine and watch the game.

(49:30):
But yeah, uh, go birds.
And I couldn't help.

Bob (49:33):
Eagles fly, yeah.

Jaimie (49:35):
So, but if men were more hesitant to form friendships
because of this sort of learnedidea of manliness, then we might
see younger men's friendshipsdoing better.
And if anything, we see theirfriendships doing worse.
So I don't think we'veidentified yet what is going on

(49:56):
that is the stumbling block forparticularly men.

Bob (49:59):
Interesting.

Jaimie (50:00):
And unfortunately, you know, as much as we don't study
friendships, we study men'sfriendships even a little less.

Bob (50:07):
Interesting.
And as you're talking aboutthis, it kind of makes me think
that looking back on myfriendships and relationships,
and sometimes women have moredrama in their friendships too.

Jaimie (50:21):
Yes.

Bob (50:22):
Right.
And I think it's the way youdescribe that.
The women have closer friends,men are kind of like bros.
Oh, let's, you know, let's gowatch the game or whatever.
And so when there's conflict,you know, and I have three
daughters, you know, so I hearabout this kind of stuff.
And you know, it's like kind ofdramatic, or it goes on for
days or whatever.
Where like when I have conflictwith my friends, it's kind of
like, hey man, hey, bro, sorry,it's all good, you know.

(50:43):
And then it's kind of like,okay, we we good?
Yeah, we're done, you know, andthat's it.
And you move on.
So it's really, it's sodifferent, right?

Jaimie (50:49):
It really is.

Bob (50:50):
So talk about that.

Jaimie (50:51):
I mean, for the general, you are hitting on something
that has uh really been backedby data, okay.
Thanks to a woman named JoyceBennenson at Harvard in
particular.
So Mark Wahlberg made a friendafter he kicked him in the back.
That's how they met, wasviolence.

Bob (51:08):
Okay.

Jaimie (51:09):
And then they became bros.

Bob (51:10):
Right.

Jaimie (51:11):
That would not happen among women.

Bob (51:13):
Nope.

Jaimie (51:13):
And in fact, you're right, women's friendships, at
least among young women, aremore turbulent, they're more
fragile, they're more fraught.
Men's friendships are morelikely to be long-lasting.
And part of what's going onthere is that men are more
likely to repair theirfriendships, they're more likely
to reconcile.
And so there's one really coolstudy that Joyce Benninson was a

(51:35):
part of looking at men andwomen playing same-sex soccer
games.
And after the match, she lookedat touch, which is sort of a
cue of reconciliation and comingback together, even in
non-human primates.
The males in the US were morelikely to touch after the game
when they were on opposing teamsthan the females were, even

(51:58):
though it's a little bit moretaboo among men to touch.
And so what that seems tosignal in line with other
research is that men are moreforgiving of their friendships.
Women have more best friends bythe time that they're 30 than
men do.

Bob (52:15):
Yeah.

Jaimie (52:16):
And that can be really painful, as I found out myself.

Bob (52:20):
Right.
Yeah, exactly.
Oh my God, this is so much fun.
I'm having a great time.
So, anyway, what's the nextfrontier?
I mean, you're you're heredoing research at UCLA.
What's the next frontier?
What are you most excited aboutto study in the field of
friendship?

Jaimie (52:33):
Oh God.
So here's the thing.
When you look at the work insocial psychology, my field, and
the top journals.
So with my grad student, HeiWan Hong, we've looked at almost
27,000 articles across seventop journals, and we oversampled
journals that focus on quoteunquote close relationships.

(52:55):
So friendships, romanticrelationships, and family
relationships.
And what we were looking forwas the prevalence of studying
friendship.
And we went to those journalsin particular because if people
are studying friendship, they'llbe there.
4% of the articles looked atfriendship.
And by contrast, 16%, so afactor of four looked at

(53:17):
romance, right?
We are not studying friendship.
So to answer your question,anything.
I will take anything.
But what I'm most excited aboutis trying to use the knowledge
that we've developed about howthe brain finds, makes, and
keeps friends to actually helppeople find, make, and keep
friends.
And so what we're doing rightnow, both in the center and in

(53:41):
my lab in particular, we'redeveloping and about to deploy
interventions that we think canactually help people make
friends.
So pair them up in certain waysusing this algorithm developed
by Dan Conway Beam.
Dr.
Carolyn Parkinson is a socialneuroscientist here.
She and her grad student, LisaShen have done work where they

(54:03):
scanned people's brains, gradstudent cohort before these grad
students met.
And the brain scans werelooking at people in this
magnet.
So they're in the machine,lying there watching movie
clips, comedy, documentary, etcetera.
And what they did was look atthe synchrony of people's
brains.
And what that synchronypredicts is whether or not

(54:26):
people will become friends.

Bob (54:27):
Okay.

Jaimie (54:28):
So we might be able to use the tools that we have
today, knowing people's friendpreferences, knowing how they
react to certain films.
And I would say things likehumor and maybe music that
produce synchrony andcoordination to bring people
together at this time when weneed it the most.

Bob (54:45):
Yeah, that's incredible.
So yeah, I mean, almost likeputting you just want to see a
stake in the ground.
Like hey, this is important.
We got to raise awareness onthis topic.
Yes.
Let's make this happen.
And you want to be a lot there,you're going to have to be out
there leading the charge.
I know you're going to be ableto do that.

Jaimie (54:59):
I mean, I hope so.
I I would love to galvanize acommunity.
And I think I mentioned this toyou once.
I told a woman at the BBC, Ifeel like a pimp for friendship.

Bob (55:07):
That is that is so cool.
Hey, this has been such aninteresting conversation.
I could talk to you probablyall day long, right?
In the interest of time,though, I have one final
question, and then we need towrap up.
Okay.
Well, there will be twoquestions because I'm going to
ask you to wrap up too.
But what's your take onastrology?
In predicting friendship orrelationships, right?

(55:28):
Because like, look, I mean, weall I sneak peeks at my my
horoscope every now and then,and I feel so lame doing it, but
like, oh, well, you know, whoare you most likely to be a
match with, or who are you mostlikely to ha, you know, be a
good friend?
What's gonna happen today, orwhat's your love life gonna be
like, right?
You know, and so I'm an Aries,you know, there are all these
different signs I'm supposed tobe the perfect match for, but I

(55:49):
I don't find much, you know, Idon't I I don't take much about
that.
I mean, I just kind of move onwith my life.
But what do you what's yourtake?
Is there any validity to it?

Jaimie (55:56):
I will tell you two things.

Bob (55:57):
Okay.

Jaimie (55:58):
One is as a person, I came out to visit my aunt here
in 2009, I think.
Um, and I went to, it's notquite astrology, but I went to a
guy that does readings and kindof a psychic type.
Yeah.
Okay.
And he said a few things.
One, you're gonna be marriedtwice.

(56:19):
I was like, okay, that'sinteresting.
Two, you're this year's gonnabe a huge change for you.
And it was, I started gradschool and I put applications
together to eventually go toOxford.
I met my then husband.
Definitely true.
And then the third was, oh, andyou're gonna live in Arizona
and Southern California.

(56:39):
Whoa.
And I was like, no, I'm not, Ihate those places.
Here you are in Philadelphia,East Coast forever.
And I did six years of gradschool in Arizona, and now I
live in Southern California.
Okay, maybe.
But at the end of the day, I ama scientist, and what the data
suggests, and this is a study byBill Chopic, too, okay, is that

(57:02):
people cannot pick theirhoroscope out of a lineup.

Bob (57:06):
Oh, yeah.

Jaimie (57:06):
Yeah, it just there isn't a there there, but my God,
it would be so comforting ifsomebody could tell me what the
hell is gonna happen to me inthe next two years.

Bob (57:15):
Right.

Jaimie (57:16):
I would love it.
Am I getting that NSF?
Is NSF gonna exist?
Please tell me.

Bob (57:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, that's so interesting.
Yeah.
I mean, that I call that whatyou described kind of the
universe is speaking to you.
Yeah and I've had those kind ofexperiences where I get this
nudge.
And I call it the starsaligning, call it, oh, that's my
day for that in my astrologyforecast.
I don't have, I don't put a lotof credence in horoscopes
personally, but yeah.

(57:41):
And but I have in my life, kindof like you, you're talking
about I felt these nudges, orsomebody says something to me
that leads me in a differentdirection.
And then you think, well, thatwas a random meeting.
Well, no, it wasn't.
I don't believe in randomness,right?
Or quit I I don't believe incoincidence.
I think that people, you know,you people come in your lives,
you meet people for a certainreason.
I can always explain it.
Call it something spiritual,call it the universe, you know,

(58:03):
call it your your astrology.
Whatever.

Jaimie (58:06):
Something something might be there.

Bob (58:08):
And I think that's one of the things I've tried to do is
just like listen to that more.
You know, if I'm feeling nudgesor if I'm feeling pointed in a
certain direction, I think.

Jaimie (58:15):
Yeah, listen to your gut.

Bob (58:16):
Exactly.
Right?
Okay.

Jaimie (58:17):
For what it's for a themopy.

Bob (58:20):
All right.
Here's my real last question.
Okay.
Do you have any closingthoughts for our listeners?
And then if someone wanted tolearn more about you, your
research, your work, how wouldthey how would they find you, or
how could they, you know, getit get a hold of that research,
I guess.

Jaimie (58:35):
So the one thing I'll say is to prioritize your
friendships.
We don't realize it, butloneliness is more prevalent
than smoking or obesity in theU.S.
Every other American is lonely.
That means other people wantfriends too.
One in four older Americans isisolated.
They want to meet people too.
So prioritize your friendships.

(58:58):
My God, it is the bestinvestment that you can make in
yourself and your future.
And the second thing is my God,do we need to prioritize
investment and friendship, bothat an institutional level in
terms of the government, right?
We sort of subsidize marriage,but friendship is invisible in
our policy.
And that should change.

(59:19):
Friendship doesn't really comeinto play when we think about
our healthcare system.
But it takes two seconds toask, you know, who are you
supporting and who's supportingyou, right next to your blood
pressure and your weight.
Right.
We need to be doing that.
We need to make friendship cordour elder care strategy.
Friendship has to be part ofour infrastructure because it is

(59:40):
a public good.
It's good for health,democracy, society, it lowers
health care costs, it increasesbusiness productivity.
Friendship is great.
Okay, so I'm done soapboxingthere.
I am going to say shamelessly,please go to my lab's website.
You can look up my name.
Jamie Krems, you'll find thelab site.

Bob (01:00:02):
Can you spell your name for them?

Jaimie (01:00:05):
It's a City in Austria, K-R-E, M is in Mary, S is in
Sam.
Please check out the work thatwe're doing.
There's a link there to a paperwritten for the public about
how we might take friendshipsseriously and how we might
change policy if we do that.
That's a paper with VictorKaufman.
And just think about ways thatyou can support your friends, or

(01:00:29):
if you are feeling reallygenerous, friendship science.
Because we don't do it.
And at UCLA, we are the worldleaders, not just in the
research, but in galvanizing thecommunity and trying to make
people understand how importantfriendships are.

Bob (01:00:47):
You're easy to find online.
I did like that.
And I emailed you, right?
That's how I got your email.
I she's also on LinkedIn.
You and I, thank you for thefriend request or the connection
on LinkedIn.
We were now the dupe.
Yeah, we're now connected onLinkedIn, which is fabulous.
And I'll also put a link toJamie's website in the episode
notes.
If you're listening on iTunesor Spotify or YouTube, you can

(01:01:11):
find it there.
Also, if it's on our website,we'll have a link in there so
they can find you.

Jaimie (01:01:14):
Thank you for letting my shame s less plugs.

Bob (01:01:16):
Yeah, no, I wanted you to.
It's fascinating stuff thatpeople need to know about.
And I just find your work, youknow, helping understand
friendship is, you know,friendship isn't optional.
I think that's your mainmessage today, you know, and
it's a foundational, it'smedicine.
It's something that we have todo to live longer.
And it's one of the mostimportant pieces that I've
discovered from list thanks toyou.

(01:01:37):
I I knew it was there for me,but I didn't really realize the
science or data behind it, butit's really important for that
retired mindset.
So when I heard you talk aboutwhat you do, I'm going, oh my
God, I have got to get her on mypodcast because it just is a
perfect fit.
So thank you so much.

Jaimie (01:01:53):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.

Bob (01:01:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
All right, to our listeners, intoday's episode, if this
resonated with you, please sharethis with other people, maybe
people that are struggling tomake friends, maybe people who
are tired, or maybe just becauseit's a good message, you know,
a feel-good message about makingfriends and the importance of
that.
Either way, share it.
And better yet, follow some ofthe recommendations that Jamie

(01:02:15):
gave us.
Reach out to people that youhaven't touched for a while and
reconnect, make new friends.
And I think you'll find that ifyou exude that positivity, more
positive things are going tocome back into your life.
I know they did for me.
And also remember inretirement, soul meets body.
Hey, thanks for joining ustoday.
Great episode.
As we wrap up today, a quickplug to please pay it forward by

(01:02:40):
sharing this episode with afriend.
And if you like what you heard,please subscribe to get access
to all of our future episodes.
And always remember that inretirement, soul meets body.