July 9, 2025 • 36 mins
In today’s episode of The Rev Rx Podcast, Chad sits down with Sarah Cowan Johnson—author of Teach Your Children Well—for a powerful conversation about parenting, discipleship, and why raising kids to love Jesus is more complex (and important) than ever.
They unpack:
The 4 stages of childhood faith development from John Westerhoff’s model
Why you can’t outsource your child’s spiritual life to the church
How to respond when your kids start asking tough faith questions
What it means to spiritually parent in a post-Christian culture
The role of habits, rituals, and modeling in the early years
This conversation is for every parent, grandparent, pastor, and mentor who’s passionate about raising the next generation to walk with Jesus.
📚 Resources & Links:
Sarah’s website: sarahcowanjohnson.com
Teach Your Children Well book: Link to purchase
Follow Chad on Instagram: @chadpottspharmd
Join the Man Alive Community: manalivecoaching.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
Hey friends, and welcome back tothe Rev RX podcast where we show
you how to thrive in faith, family, and health.
I'm your host, Chad Potts, pastor, pharmacist, and fellow
parent in the trenches. Today's episode is one I've been
really looking forward to for a long time.
I'm joined by one of my favoriteauthors on parenting, Sarah
Cowan Johnson. She's a speaker.
(00:32):
She's a ministry consultant. She's the author of that book I
just mentioned, Teach your children Well.
If you're a parent, if you're a grandparent, you're someone
walking alongside this next generation.
This episode's for you. We're diving head first into how
to raise Jesus followers in a world that's moving fast in the
other direction. We talked about the four stages
(00:53):
of faith in kids, why we're not supposed to outsource
discipleship to the church, and how to handle it when your child
starts asking those hard questions about faith.
There's a lot of practical wisdom here, but more than that,
there's hope. So whether you're in the car
folding laundry or hiding in thegarage for 5 minutes of peace, I
hope that this episode encourages you.
(01:15):
Let's get into it. I introduced to you my friend
Sarah Callan Johnson. Thank you so much, Sarah, for
joining us today on the Rev RX podcast.
What a privilege it is to have you.
I told you, I've been selfishly waiting for this for a long
time. I want to pick your brain, but
welcome to the show. Awesome, thanks so much for
having me. You are a wealth of knowledge
(01:37):
about all things parenting and really such an important role in
our world today as we bring up these these little children to
soon to be adults sooner than werealize.
Yeah, I had to come up and and be responsible adults.
But more than that, how to love Jesus.
That's right. And what that looks like in in
all of their life. Before we get into some of those
(01:58):
though, I'd love for you just tointroduce yourself to my
audience, help them get to know you a little better.
Yeah, well, so I I'll tell you about my family first.
I'm married. We're coming up on 20 years this
June. Congrats.
Thank you. Yes.
And my husband is a pastor and also executive director of A
(02:19):
prepare church ministry that is preparing the church in New
England for renewal and awakening.
So that tells you a little bit about our, our ministry heart.
Then we have two boys who are 15and 11.
And then our three-year old niece also lives with us.
So got a full, full nest right now.
And then professionally. So my background, I was in
college ministry for a long timewithin her varsity.
(02:41):
And then I served at our church as the executive pastor for a
few years. And now I do consulting.
So I I work with church plantersand I work with parents and
churches who want to equip and empower parents for
discipleship. So.
Love it. You and I are much aligned.
I, I didn't know that about the college ministry part.
Oh yeah. And so, yeah, I, I can tell that
(03:01):
we're on the same wavelength here, had the same heart for the
same group of people and really just trying to equip them to be
the best that they can be for the Lord.
So that's. Right.
You have a book called Teach Your Children Well, for all of
you watching this, this has beenon my shelf for a while and it
is all marked up, highlighted, underline.
Really great resource. My wife and I both love it and I
(03:24):
just like to dig into that just a little bit.
Your introduction really caught my attention.
So I'm, I'm all about, you know,don't judge a book by its cover,
don't judge a book by its introduction.
But your introduction really gotme, because what you said is
this. Raising young Jesus followers is
not for the faint of heart, right?
My heart resonates with that. Yes.
Can you dig into that just a little bit?
(03:44):
Because I'm like raising my handsaying Hallelujah, yeah.
But what led you to write that line?
And really, what's your experience with that?
Yeah, well, I think a lot of it has to do with what it means to
raise Christian children and to follow the way of Jesus in our
current moment right now. So I think it's different from
when we were kids, You know, andI get into this in the book, but
(04:09):
I culture has shifted in the last 20 to 30 years where the
primary attitude towards Christianity in our culture at
one point was positive and then it became sort of neutral and
now it's distinctly negative. And so if we are going to help
our kids to love and follow Jesus, first of all, they're not
going to get that instruction, education or encouragement from
(04:32):
the world. And not that necessarily I did
as a child, although being the, the Christian sort of lifestyle,
I put that in quotes was generally seen as like a moral
way to live. And that's not really true
anymore. So you don't get any headwind or
tailwind from tailwind from the culture.
And I think it means that the family really, we need more
(04:56):
intentionality than we did in Christendom, where the culture
around us is a Christian culture.
You really need more intentionality because you're
counter forming your children. They're being formed in ways
that are counter to the gospel. And so parenting in this moment
to help kids love and follow Jesus requires more, I think,
(05:17):
than it ever has. Yeah 100% and even even down
here in the Bible build I'm. I'm sure, yeah.
Even down here in the Bible build that's that's increasingly
the case. And yeah, that's a whole
different conversation for different day.
But you know, there's a lot of equating Christianity with that
lifestyle and realizing that it's a lot more than that.
That's right. Relationship really can
(05:39):
transform every part of our lives.
But you're right, it takes intentionality.
I love that word. That's when I use a lot.
Because if you're not intentional about discipling
your kids, your kids are being discipled one way or another.
That's right, exactly. And so if you're not intentional
about discipling them in the wayof Jesus, then they're not going
to be discipled that way. In the book, there's this
concept that you talk about and it's one that I see an awful lot
(06:01):
of and I'm very vocal about it. Maybe not always a good thing,
but I don't I don't back down from this.
That's good. It's not the church's job to
disciple your kids. That's right.
There seems to be this outsourcing idea, yeah, these
days that, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to get my kids in
church and they're going to takecare of that part for me.
Right. And can you give us a little bit
of of context behind that, maybeyour experience with that and
(06:24):
why that's just not the case? Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I think there's two.
In my opinion, there's a couple of factors that have sort of
coalesced to make that pretty standard.
So 1 is most churches are structured in a way that even
though we might say sure we believe in the priesthood of all
believers, which is the doctrineof the Reformation, we still see
most of the ministry tends to bedone by professionals.
(06:46):
So most churches have professional youth pastors, you
know, children's pastors. That's not a bad thing speaking
to a young adult pastor, right? Like not a bad thing about it.
Exactly. But if we have a vision in our
minds, SO11 analogy that I thinkis helpful is that of a football
game. If the congregation is up in the
stands watching the church staffrun all the ministry plays, but
(07:09):
not ever getting on the field, that's a problem.
And so that that's one factor isjust sort of where I think
there's a tendency to see churchstaff doing running ministry
plays and not inviting the congregation into the into the
working. Bystanders.
Yeah. That matches up with a pretty
normal parenting norm, which is that when we want our kids to be
(07:31):
good at something, we tend to outsource their development to
other people, to experts. So that makes sense when it's
something like math or soccer, you know, get them on the best
team, hire a tutor, that kind ofthing.
But we apply that same logic to spirituality.
And the problem with this is it's not producing the fruit
that we want it to. So in the book I talked about at
(07:51):
that time, I was using research that said 50% of kids are
walking away from their faith. Recent studies have put that
number close to 2/3. So without, if we're just
running those same place, Sundayschool youth group, drop the
kids off, you take it. We're seeing 2/3 of them walk
away from their faith after theygraduate.
And I don't think that's anybody's goal, but that's the
(08:14):
unintended consequence. Yeah.
And, you know, I, I see that a lot too, because there is this
sense of, OK, the children go tothe children's department.
Right, right. The youth.
Go to the youth department, right?
And then after you graduate fromhigh school, there's, there's
not a ton of resources out therein this young adult area.
And then it's almost like, OK, now I'm graduated from high
(08:37):
school and I suddenly go from a really cool youth group to now
I'm lumped in with my parents orright?
Right, right. Not you.
Can't be cool parents, but right, you know, but it's, it's
like it's, that's a big jump. Yep.
And but then there's also this aspect of deconstructing faith.
There's also this aspect of making faith your own.
(08:57):
And this was a period. This is why I'm drawn to young
adult ministry, because this wasa critical period in my life to
where I needed to kind of realize that, OK, I've been
taught all these things. That's.
Right. And for much of my life I
equated following Jesus with just going to church.
Like that was my relationship was I went to.
Church and I was. Done for the week.
I checked that box. Go home.
(09:18):
Yeah, that's a real tendency, I think, for a lot of people.
But then when I understood that there's so much more to this,
and now I believe what I believe.
Not because it was something that I was taught.
Not because that's what my Sunday school teacher told me,
but because Jesus is real to me and I have a relationship with
him. That's where we've got to get
people. I think that's.
(09:39):
Right. And that's something that
happens in adolescence or early adulthood.
And so that, you know, I think parents often when a teenager
begins to question their faith, it feels very threatening to a
parent when actually they need to do that because they actually
need to arrive at a place where they're choosing it for
(09:59):
themselves. And I don't, I think both the
church and just the average parent isn't set up well to know
how to handle that. So I was actually this morning
unrelated to this podcast. I was just thinking, we have a
whole crop of 5th graders at ourchurch heading into middle
school next year. And I was just thinking, I want
to run a seminar for parents of new middle schoolers just to
(10:23):
talk about what happens to a child's faith development as
they move into adolescence, justto get ahead of it and start to
say, like, yeah, this is what toexpect.
And this is what not to freak out about.
And this is how you can help them to dig deep, get, you know,
ask all their questions because actually they really, they need
to do that. So anyway, yeah, it's important.
(10:43):
It is and every stage of the journey is a little bit
different and that kind of takesme to the next place I wanted to
go with this. And that's the fact that you do
A What I love about your book isthat you explain it in a very
approachable way. Thanks.
You bring, you know, biblical wisdom in a way that's easy to
understand. A lot of a lot of times, you
know, I'm obviously you can see my bookshelf behind me.
(11:06):
I love books, but a lot of them are, you know, they're a little
over our heads. So the for the listeners out
there, you know, hey, you don't have to be a pastor, seminary
graduate, anything like that to understand a lot of what this is
written about. And you use humor, you use a lot
of visuals. I mentioned I love your charts.
You're a big chart fan and. I do love a visual guide, yes.
(11:28):
And I'm the. Same way, but explaining the
stages of spiritual development.Yeah.
And that's something I don't think we really get anywhere in
life. Yeah, They.
No one teaches us this. That's where you come in.
No one teaches us, you know, howto really maximize the potential
at this stage and how to maximize this potential at this
stage. But you do a really good job
(11:48):
explaining that. I don't want to get in the weeds
too much because I won't be ableto get your book, but thinking
of spiritual development, John Westerhof, you know, kind of
gives a structure for that. But there's four areas that you
talk about in the book, and thenyou go through that with the
different stages of life and thedifferent ages.
Can you give us kind of just a high overview of what that looks
like? Absolutely.
Yeah, so John Westerhof is the model that I use and really
(12:11):
like. So he talks about faith
development and children like the same way a tree adds rings.
So you don't there's stages, butyou don't move past the stage
and leave it in the dust. You just your faith becomes more
complex. So it's really helpful.
He has this line about when you look at a baby tree like a
sapling, it's nowhere near as complex and huge as a big oak
(12:34):
tree or something. But you wouldn't say it's not a
tree. You wouldn't say it's a pre
tree. It's a tree.
It's just a baby tree. And I think, I think with kids,
especially with little ones, we look at their, you know,
interaction with the church, with God, their prayer life.
And we say that's pre faith because they're not of the age
(12:55):
where they make a willful volitional decision to follow
Jesus. And so sometimes we wait and
wonder and we sort of in our minds, whether we would say it
out loud or not, we label that as pre faith.
And So what I love about this isthat each stage, no, this is
what faith looks like. So the first stage is called the
experiential stage, and that's little kids up to about school
(13:17):
age, so from birth to about 5 or6.
And really that one is about themode of spiritual engagement is
experience. It's about learning the actions,
the rituals, the stories, the songs of faith.
And so, you know, I have this little video that I love to
rewatch of my son, who was 2 reciting the Lord's Prayer.
(13:40):
And he's like, get it? He's like, doing it, doing it.
And then about halfway through, it just devolves into gibberish,
Like, it's just so funny. And then he might do that, you
know? Yeah.
And then it's like, Amen. And you could look at that and
say he has no idea what he's saying.
And that's one way to look at it.
The other way to look at it is this.
This is the Lord's gracious likemovement towards him.
(14:03):
When a child is raised in a Christian home, it's like these
little handholds that show him this is what following Jesus is
like. We pray, we talk to God, we
worship with other believers, we're part of a church.
So experiential is really about.There's a lot of mimicking in
it, but again, I see that as God's gracious, like pursuit of
(14:25):
a 2 year old. Yeah, I, you know, so, yeah.
So, yeah, go ahead. Really.
That's where I am with what withwooden bind right now, maybe,
yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 4-6 and eight,
and yeah, there's this real tendency to dismiss, right?
A lot. Of what they're doing, right?
They don't, you know, because you don't want to.
You don't want to make more of it than what it is.
I mean, I get that temptation, right?
(14:48):
But acknowledging it for what itis, I think is a beautiful thing
too. And technology, it is kind of a
baby step. It's a baby step in their
growth, a baby step in their development.
And there's a lot of value in surround and surrounding them
with some of these rituals and some of these rites that we go
through. And yeah, for them to halfway
understand the Lord's Prayer, right?
And maybe not even understand it, but to say it, I mean,
(15:09):
there's just, there's a lot of value in that.
And I, that's right. I don't want to gloss past that,
not just highlight it that sometimes we say, oh, they don't
know what they're doing. And I've seen the kids of like 2
year or I've seen videos of kidslike 2 years old and they're
raising their hands in worship and they're they're not, they
don't really. But you know what?
That's beautiful it. Is because they only know to do
that because they have been likethey're raised in a Christian
(15:32):
environment or in a Christian home.
They are mimicking and modeling.And that's not nothing, you
know, that's not so. Yeah, yeah.
So I think, I think sometimes when we dismiss that and we want
to see that moment later in childhood where they're inviting
Jesus into their heart, or even in adolescence where they're
(15:53):
like, we were just saying where they're really choosing it for
themselves. It puts a lot of emphasis on
our, the human side of the equation in conversion.
And I think what I like about learning to recognize and
celebrate what you see in a 2 year old and a three-year old is
that we have to remember God's the one who initiates this
relationship, you know, and he, there's nothing, even a, a mind
(16:17):
that's not fully developed that can prevent him from interacting
with that child. So I believe our children are
capable of intimacy with God. God, that is not even, it's not
the same as an adult intimacy. But yeah, so one of the
practices that we've done with our little ones is the practice
of the examine, which is it's anadult practice where you're sort
(16:38):
of talking over the day, where did you see God and where did
you miss God? And little kids can't answer
that question, but they can answer when were you happy
today? When were you sad today?
And who was with you all day? That awareness that God is with
them is something that is not just that mimicking of the
Lord's Prayer. Like they really know that God
(16:59):
is with them. And so there's things that you
can do at that young age, you know, to help them get a sense
of who God is. Help.
Us realize that the grace of Godsurpasses our understanding
that's. Right, that's right.
He. He created them.
That's right. And he knows how to commune with
them, and that's pretty cool. That's.
Yeah. And that's part of trusting that
(17:21):
this isn't all up to us or even up to them.
It's, you know, the Holy Spirit is at work.
And we can ask the Holy Spirit to minister and communicate with
our kids in ways we can't even appreciate and understand.
I really believe that. So, So yeah, that's that early
stage. And then around age like 7-6 or
seven, it's it's like elementaryschool.
(17:43):
John Westerhof calls it the affiliative stage.
And that is that they are movingfrom sort of a mimicking or a
modeling into a sense of belonging to the group.
So they want to, for example, they're not just mimicking out
of behavior, you know, sort of like instinct anymore.
They're mimicking because they want to be like mom and dad or
they want to be part of the group.
(18:04):
So the mantra of this group is Ibelieve because we believe like
that's how they think about faith.
And so at this stage, it's really helpful to connect the
child with the church. But so an example in this age.
So my son, my youngest son, is just about to be done with this
stage. But when he was about 9, my
husband has a spot in our house that's his prayer chair.
(18:26):
And he journals and has a special journal and special pens
that he uses. And Silas, you know, would watch
him doing that. And then one day said, like,
Dad, I want to get the exact same journal you have in the
same pens. And I want to do what you're
doing. And that's not just raising your
hands, not knowing exactly what that is.
That's Silas wanting the relationship with God that he
(18:47):
sees Greg having. So yes, in the affiliative
stage, it's about connection. My.
Daughter is going through that right now.
Nice, nice, she's. She's 8 and Yep, she's seen me
with my Bible and underlining and highlighting and she wanted
her own yes. Yes.
On highlighters yes and a place to write because you'll see me
right you know that that's an interesting I've experienced
(19:10):
though, so it's not something that's just you know OK, we've
got to make this happen but it it just kind of naturally occurs
it. Does it?
Does not. You know, it's not like, OK,
when they turn 7, they're going to be like this.
But no, it's. Just a natural.
And like you said, the trees like the example of the rings of
the tree, they don't outgrow theother one.
They just kind of add to it, right?
But I've experienced this latelyand and I resonate with you.
(19:31):
Call it like the squad, yes, thesquad stage or something like
that. Yes, they want to belong to that
squad. They do.
They want to do the things that they see others doing, not just
out of mimicry, right, but out of a genuine interest in like, I
want to be like them. Right, that's a pretty.
Cool place. Yeah, so this is where I would
recommend churches. You know, we usually start youth
(19:53):
group type things later our churches experimented with
doing. We had like the preteen boy
squad and we have girls Bible study where it's.
Helping them to connect with their peers in a meaningful ways
before they get older, like before middle school, because
really in this stage they are wanting to connect with the
group. So the fascinating thing,
(20:15):
though, is that Westerhof says this is where most American
churches finish their discipleship.
Sort of thinking for kids is that we provide experiences that
help them to believe because we believe, I believe, because the
group believes. And we carry that into middle
school and high school with sortof typical youth group
experiences. Sure.
(20:36):
Because the next stage is that searching stage where their
primary mode of spiritual engagement is to question, to
reject, to RIP apart. And so if we don't anticipate
that and we don't see that as a positive thing, we just continue
this kind of like, oh, come to youth group, you know, and this
was a little bit of my story in a way of just I loved in high
(21:01):
school being with my Christian friends, right?
I loved that. And there's, we don't want to
downplay that, but we also need to help each child make a
decision in in adolescence, an. Individual decision, right?
Because if they don't, then theyleave home or they leave the
primary faith community, they gooff to college, whatever they
do, and then they don't know howto follow Jesus without that.
(21:23):
We. Yeah, without that.
So, yeah. So I was thankful, you know,
also in high school, I had a distinct moment that I responded
to. It was actually just like a
pretty traditional altar call. But I think that combined with
that community experience meant that when I went to college, I
wasn't, I knew how to follow Jesus without my Christian high
(21:43):
school friends. But I think a lot of a lot of
students, I think graduate with that mentality of I believe
because my family believes and my church believes in my youth
group believes and we don't knowhow to follow Jesus into
adulthood and. When you leave that safe space,
and I see this a lot, when you leave that safe space of OK,
everyone around me believes the same, right?
(22:04):
Right. Right now.
I'm going into an increasingly more secular culture.
Yes, that is at best, like you said, neutral against
Christianity, but we're not really seeing that a whole lot
anymore, right? Right, it's a.
Lot of antagonism, Yep. Then how do I now follow Jesus
when everything that I knew about following Him was the we?
(22:25):
That's right and. That's such an important stage
and you know, thinking about it from the parental point of view,
right. So mine's, mine's not quite
there yet. I love how you call this the
police don't freak out stage exactly something like that, I
think. But yes, because, yeah, there is
this real tendency to think that, Oh, my kids are asking
questions, I haven't done a goodjob.
(22:45):
Exactly. And, and really, I think it's
about fostering that environmentof #1 you can ask questions, it
is OK God can take our questions, yes.
He's big enough, yes. He's not.
Threatened by our doubts and ourquestions?
No. But then to kind of saying, you
know, I want you to bring them to me.
I want you to bring them to the church.
You know, I don't, I don't want you asking these questions out
there somewhere because culture and and the secular world that
(23:08):
we live in will give you a different answer.
That's. Right, that's.
Not the truth, that's a counterfeit truth, right?
But if we are in a places where they can bring those questions,
and then there's the whole aspect of, yeah, we may not feel
equipped to answer those questions.
Right, right. Then then that's when we kind of
start freaking out. That's right.
Well, I think we have two tendencies depending on our
(23:29):
personality. 1 is to sort of shut the question down.
And I think a lot of people havethis story of, you know, even
going to like religious school. I don't know what it's like in
Georgia, but up in New England, a lot of folks go to Catholic
school and then try to ask a question in their experiences
that got shut down. You know, so I think one
(23:49):
response that's unhelpful is to shut it down and sort of make
the kid feel bad for asking or like, you know, the answer to
that, blah, blah, blah. That's one thing that I think
most of us can say, OK, I can see how that's unhelpful.
I think the other unhelpful instinct is to just too quickly
answer it, like just say, well, this is the answer.
Both of those are sort of anxious responses.
(24:10):
And instead, I think the best approach, if we can, is to say,
I'm so glad you're asking. Like this is so important.
And I think when we know developmentally this is
appropriate, this is normal. This doesn't mean there's
something wrong with their faith.
They actually have to ask. And I think every child,
depending on their personality, is going to be asking different
(24:32):
types of questions. So my oldest, who is a he's just
a fax guy. He loves to read.
He's like, oh gosh, his memory, He knows everything.
You know, he's going to come at you with the tell me why this
genealogy and this gospel is different from this one.
And how do we know? You know he's going to come with
those trying to. Reconcile it all, yes.
The Bible kind of questions, other kids are more, it's like
(24:54):
they're shepherd questions like,well, what about my friends who
don't know Jesus? Or what about this person who
isn't living the way that the Bible says or what, you know,
it's more emotional. And then for me, I think my
questions were more, how do I, is Christianity, is following
Jesus really going to like make me miserable?
Do you know what I mean? Because I, I just wanted to like
(25:16):
fit in and be cool and have fun.And I think my questions were
like, am I going to, is this like social, you know, is this
like a social death sentence? And so those were the questions.
I think every child is going to have different questions, but I
think parents the IT, the more we can say, man, I'm so glad
you're asking and let me help you find an answer without
(25:38):
answering it for them. Yeah.
And I think that's, that's an important distinction too, is
when they start asking these questions, I'm with you.
It's not super helpful to just give them the answer no, because
then that's just kind of more that memorization.
It said knowledge, right? I think maybe a better way and
and you can maybe add to this isto to help them discover the
answer for themselves. Exactly, you know.
(25:59):
Exactly. And I love the way Jesus kind of
modeled this for us because a lot of people ask Jesus
questions. Yes.
And Jesus a lot of times didn't just give the answer yes.
A lot of times he met a questioneither with another question.
That's right, which is my favorite way.
Brilliant. Yeah.
Yeah, or he would kind of help guide them to the answer.
And a lot of times we may feel as adults and as parents that we
(26:20):
don't have those answers. You know, maybe we're not as
confident as we should be and maybe it's an opportunity for
you to kind of together, yes, explore some of those depths of
the faith that you believed and make it a bonding experience.
What are your thoughts on that? Is that a?
100% I think if you don't know the answer and it's one of those
facts kind of questions, be honest, you know, don't try to
(26:42):
hide it, but just say, you know,I actually don't know.
Let's look that up together or let's talk to our pastor or
let's, you know, let's find a book we can read.
So yes, I think being honest when you feel like you don't
have a great answer. So one one thing, you know, to
some of the questions about whatabout my friends or what about
(27:03):
all these other narratives that I'm hearing in the culture that
don't square with Christianity? I think that's going to be a big
question. Sexuality, you know, all kinds
of things, right? I think it's really important
that we do the math ourselves onhow is this narrative good news.
If we can't answer that, I thinkthat's going to be difficult
(27:23):
when our teens come to us and want to know.
So I do think, yeah, it's OK to not have all the facts questions
about the Bible. We can find those.
But I think some of those deeperquestions about how would you
describe, for example, how the biblical narrative around
sexuality is good news in our moment?
If you can't answer that for yourselves, do the math.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
(27:44):
Do a little, do a little homework.
Yeah. Before, before you get asked.
Yeah, before you get put on the spot.
No way. You can't have an answer.
Yes. But here's another thing.
So I'll give you a real life example.
Our son one time, yeah, it was like, I don't know, because we
in our family, we just have always talked about being able
to hear God's voice. And we've taught our kids from a
(28:04):
young age how to listen to the Lord and how to hear God's
voice. And it in early teen years, one
of our kids was, yeah, like, I don't know if I have heard God's
voice in a long time. I don't know if I can hear God's
voice. I don't know if God is real.
Like it went down this rabbit trail.
And so there is this freak out of like, Oh my gosh, I don't
know what to say. You know, So what we did, and
(28:26):
I'm not saying this to say like,oh, we did it right.
But I, it was sort of a I'm following my own advice was to
say, you know what, why don't wetry an experiment like for two
weeks, let's before you go to bed, just take some time to
listen and journal and, you know, pray.
I'm just not even acknowledging that he said, I don't know if
(28:49):
God is real. I'm like, I know we're just
going to talk to him anyway. I'm not that I didn't
acknowledge it, but more like I didn't let that I'm not trying
to prove anything to him. I'm just saying, let's just try
an experiment. So for two weeks, he added this
in of just some prayer journaling, and lo and behold,
he felt like the Lord was speaking to him.
And so it just was like I didn'tgive him the answer.
(29:11):
I gave him an assignment. Yeah.
He gave him a tool. Yes.
And I think when we can do that kind of thing, like you just
said, it's about helping them todiscover the answer.
Because if I had sat him down and said no, but remember this
time you heard God's voice. This is how God speaks.
And no, I know that, you know, blah, blah, blah.
Like that's just going to, it's going to deflate him.
(29:31):
But I gave him an assignment andhe.
Did it? I love that.
Yeah. And, and you're right, there is,
I think that panic rises up in US.
I'm raising an atheist. Oh no.
No, it's natural, right? But realizing those questions
are normal, I think that's kind of the point of this.
And then yes, the last stage is kind of the on the stage, yeah.
(29:52):
And and kind of how does that it's not AI guess it's kind of
the next thing from searching, but how is that different?
Yeah, and own I mean that's sortof the that's the fully mature
tree that, you know, Westerhoff would say is like when you have
fully decided. I followed Jesus for myself and
you know, I think in churches some important threshold
(30:13):
somewhere in the process to cross or things like baptism or
confirmation or, you know, some way to mark this is an adult
decision. And I do think, you know, a lot
of a lot of times we emphasize decision making in conversions
from, you know, nothing to following Jesus.
And I really do think when we'reraising Jesus followers, we do
(30:34):
have to emphasize those decisionmoments, even when they have
known Jesus their whole life. And that again, that was my
story is that I can point to a moment.
So yeah, owned faith is really the it's the mature tree.
Yeah. And, and I like thinking of
these as milestones and, and it looks different for every kid.
You know, you're not going to expect them all to go through,
(30:54):
correct, the same exact thing and the same amount of time,
correct. You may have some older that are
kind of in the same place as a younger one.
I joke around, we've got 1 1/2 and in two of those places,
because yes, one's kind of in the middle.
Yep. But every, every child's
different. But if we think about it as
milestones and what we realize is that we do serve a God who
initiates a relationship with each and every one of his
(31:17):
creation. You know, we have the ability to
say no to that. We have the ability to not
listen, but within, we also havethe ability to foster that.
We have the ability to be able to foster that not only in our
own lives, but in in our children's lives.
And so realizing that God's at work in your child, no matter
how old or how young. Yeah, I.
Think it's just a big part of the take home that I wanted to
(31:39):
be able to bring out here. Yeah, is.
That your child may be just kindof going through the motions.
Don't dismiss that that's. Right, there's value.
That's right, your child. May be asking some hard
questions my middle child and he's a classic middle child he's
the six year old we went throughthe Easter season recently and
he was kind of confused about Jesus dying and then like being
(32:02):
raised again and it's. Confusing.
Yeah, genuinely. Typically, dead people stay
dead. Exactly.
And so then he started asking some questions.
He's asking them to my wife. And she's like, well, go get,
you've got the wrong parent. Go ask the other.
No, she helped him through something.
But we were kind of together. And I'm like, well, he said, so
(32:22):
am I going to die? I'm like, well, yeah.
He went through that Easter story.
He kind of faced the real realization of his own
mortality. Yeah, and.
That created a whole different rabbit trail, Yes.
And then he said, well, am I going to raise again too?
Or rise again too? Like Jesus?
I'm like, well, I mean, yeah, you will.
And being able to explain that in a way that a six year old can
(32:43):
understand, I don't think anybody feels.
I know. Ready.
I think you're. Able to do that, but being able
to just kind of plant some of those seeds and realizing
they're not going to grow right now.
That's right. But you've had that
conversation. Yep.
And he's going to be thinking onthat for months and years to
come. And at some point that's going
to come back up and he's going to have a fuller understanding
(33:03):
of it. That's right.
But God's working and God is continuously working our kids.
And so realizing that, realizingthese milestones is really,
really helpful. Yeah.
Being able to come alongside them to kind of, you know, kind
of be able to help them through this journey because that's
absolutely, yes. If we're we can raise them to be
the most successful people in the world, but I feel like we
(33:24):
have failed if we haven't raisedthem to love Jesus and totally.
And so that's your heart. That's my heart, I.
Know it's umm yeah it's I just heard this somebody was quoting
someone talking about how the word priority was not plural you
know people didn't use that in aplural way until like the last
century right so priorities whendid we think that there could be
(33:49):
more than one priority right andso I feel that way about
discipleship This is I mean obviously I want good things for
my kids but if they love Jesus and have a really low paying job
that's better than the other wayaround you know what I.
Mean. And so, yeah, I just, I think
that's something that I feel pretty passionate about, is
(34:11):
helping parents to see this is the only thing that truly
matters. This is the goal of parenting.
Yeah. And there's there's studies that
show that Christian parents, priorities, plural, match the
culture. You know, most Christian parents
want to see their kids work hardmore than anything else and then
go to college second. But the idea of following Jesus
is pretty low on that list. And I think that should be high.
(34:34):
Yeah. And the work you're doing is
really putting it in its place. And so again, appreciate all
you're doing for the Kingdom, all you've.
Helped. Us with in our parenting journey
and we'll continue as we as we progress on a little bit
further. Hey, where can my listeners find
out more about you and the work you're doing?
You've got the book a you're on a couple different places now.
(34:54):
IVP is really putting out some neat stuff and putting you at
the forefront. So where can my listeners get
into your world? Yeah.
Thank you. So I have a website, it's just
my name, Sarah Cowan johnson.comand there's free resources
there. And then yeah, links to all the
all the other things too. Awesome.
Well, thank you so much, Sarah. This has been a pleasure.
Yeah, appreciate. Personally, I appreciate it.
(35:17):
And then also professionally forthe podcast, for my listeners
out there, you guys check out her book.
It is a tremendous resource for parenting.
You're going to love every bit of it.
There's not a whole lot of booksI read where I'm just like
laughing throughout the whole thing.
And then I'm also like underlining and like taking
notes. And that's one of them.
So thanks for being faithful to the Lord's calling on your life,
and we thank you so much. Just pray blessings on you and
(35:38):
your family. Thank you.
It's been a joy to talk to you and you as well.
Listeners, hang in there. You got this.
We're going to end the way we started.
Raising young Jesus followers isnot for the faint of heart.
That's. Right, that's the.
Most important thing you and. The Holy Spirit make an
incredible team. Amen.
Amen. Bless you, Sir.
Take care. Thank you.
Bye. Thank you for listening to the
(36:01):
Rev RX Podcast. We hope you enjoyed what you
heard today and if so, we'd loveit if you would hit that
subscribe button so that you'll never miss a new episode from
us. Also, feel free to leave us
reviews and comments as we'd love to hear from you.
Be blessed and be the very best you.
Hey friends, and welcome back tothe Rev RX podcast where we show
you how to thrive in faith, family, and health.
I'm your host, Chad Potts, pastor, pharmacist, and fellow
parent in the trenches. Today's episode is one I've been
really looking forward to for a long time.
I'm joined by one of my favoriteauthors on parenting, Sarah
Cowan Johnson. She's a speaker.
(00:32):
She's a ministry consultant. She's the author of that book I
just mentioned, Teach your children Well.
If you're a parent, if you're a grandparent, you're someone
walking alongside this next generation.
This episode's for you. We're diving head first into how
to raise Jesus followers in a world that's moving fast in the
other direction. We talked about the four stages
(00:53):
of faith in kids, why we're not supposed to outsource
discipleship to the church, and how to handle it when your child
starts asking those hard questions about faith.
There's a lot of practical wisdom here, but more than that,
there's hope. So whether you're in the car
folding laundry or hiding in thegarage for 5 minutes of peace, I
hope that this episode encourages you.
(01:15):
Let's get into it. I introduced to you my friend
Sarah Callan Johnson. Thank you so much, Sarah, for
joining us today on the Rev RX podcast.
What a privilege it is to have you.
I told you, I've been selfishly waiting for this for a long
time. I want to pick your brain, but
welcome to the show. Awesome, thanks so much for
having me. You are a wealth of knowledge
(01:37):
about all things parenting and really such an important role in
our world today as we bring up these these little children to
soon to be adults sooner than werealize.
Yeah, I had to come up and and be responsible adults.
But more than that, how to love Jesus.
That's right. And what that looks like in in
all of their life. Before we get into some of those
(01:58):
though, I'd love for you just tointroduce yourself to my
audience, help them get to know you a little better.
Yeah, well, so I I'll tell you about my family first.
I'm married. We're coming up on 20 years this
June. Congrats.
Thank you. Yes.
And my husband is a pastor and also executive director of A
(02:19):
prepare church ministry that is preparing the church in New
England for renewal and awakening.
So that tells you a little bit about our, our ministry heart.
Then we have two boys who are 15and 11.
And then our three-year old niece also lives with us.
So got a full, full nest right now.
And then professionally. So my background, I was in
college ministry for a long timewithin her varsity.
(02:41):
And then I served at our church as the executive pastor for a
few years. And now I do consulting.
So I I work with church plantersand I work with parents and
churches who want to equip and empower parents for
discipleship. So.
Love it. You and I are much aligned.
I, I didn't know that about the college ministry part.
Oh yeah. And so, yeah, I, I can tell that
(03:01):
we're on the same wavelength here, had the same heart for the
same group of people and really just trying to equip them to be
the best that they can be for the Lord.
So that's. Right.
You have a book called Teach Your Children Well, for all of
you watching this, this has beenon my shelf for a while and it
is all marked up, highlighted, underline.
Really great resource. My wife and I both love it and I
(03:24):
just like to dig into that just a little bit.
Your introduction really caught my attention.
So I'm, I'm all about, you know,don't judge a book by its cover,
don't judge a book by its introduction.
But your introduction really gotme, because what you said is
this. Raising young Jesus followers is
not for the faint of heart, right?
My heart resonates with that. Yes.
Can you dig into that just a little bit?
(03:44):
Because I'm like raising my handsaying Hallelujah, yeah.
But what led you to write that line?
And really, what's your experience with that?
Yeah, well, I think a lot of it has to do with what it means to
raise Christian children and to follow the way of Jesus in our
current moment right now. So I think it's different from
when we were kids, You know, andI get into this in the book, but
(04:09):
I culture has shifted in the last 20 to 30 years where the
primary attitude towards Christianity in our culture at
one point was positive and then it became sort of neutral and
now it's distinctly negative. And so if we are going to help
our kids to love and follow Jesus, first of all, they're not
going to get that instruction, education or encouragement from
(04:32):
the world. And not that necessarily I did
as a child, although being the, the Christian sort of lifestyle,
I put that in quotes was generally seen as like a moral
way to live. And that's not really true
anymore. So you don't get any headwind or
tailwind from tailwind from the culture.
And I think it means that the family really, we need more
(04:56):
intentionality than we did in Christendom, where the culture
around us is a Christian culture.
You really need more intentionality because you're
counter forming your children. They're being formed in ways
that are counter to the gospel. And so parenting in this moment
to help kids love and follow Jesus requires more, I think,
(05:17):
than it ever has. Yeah 100% and even even down
here in the Bible build I'm. I'm sure, yeah.
Even down here in the Bible build that's that's increasingly
the case. And yeah, that's a whole
different conversation for different day.
But you know, there's a lot of equating Christianity with that
lifestyle and realizing that it's a lot more than that.
That's right. Relationship really can
(05:39):
transform every part of our lives.
But you're right, it takes intentionality.
I love that word. That's when I use a lot.
Because if you're not intentional about discipling
your kids, your kids are being discipled one way or another.
That's right, exactly. And so if you're not intentional
about discipling them in the wayof Jesus, then they're not going
to be discipled that way. In the book, there's this
concept that you talk about and it's one that I see an awful lot
(06:01):
of and I'm very vocal about it. Maybe not always a good thing,
but I don't I don't back down from this.
That's good. It's not the church's job to
disciple your kids. That's right.
There seems to be this outsourcing idea, yeah, these
days that, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to get my kids in
church and they're going to takecare of that part for me.
Right. And can you give us a little bit
of of context behind that, maybeyour experience with that and
(06:24):
why that's just not the case? Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I think there's two.
In my opinion, there's a couple of factors that have sort of
coalesced to make that pretty standard.
So 1 is most churches are structured in a way that even
though we might say sure we believe in the priesthood of all
believers, which is the doctrineof the Reformation, we still see
most of the ministry tends to bedone by professionals.
(06:46):
So most churches have professional youth pastors, you
know, children's pastors. That's not a bad thing speaking
to a young adult pastor, right? Like not a bad thing about it.
Exactly. But if we have a vision in our
minds, SO11 analogy that I thinkis helpful is that of a football
game. If the congregation is up in the
stands watching the church staffrun all the ministry plays, but
(07:09):
not ever getting on the field, that's a problem.
And so that that's one factor isjust sort of where I think
there's a tendency to see churchstaff doing running ministry
plays and not inviting the congregation into the into the
working. Bystanders.
Yeah. That matches up with a pretty
normal parenting norm, which is that when we want our kids to be
(07:31):
good at something, we tend to outsource their development to
other people, to experts. So that makes sense when it's
something like math or soccer, you know, get them on the best
team, hire a tutor, that kind ofthing.
But we apply that same logic to spirituality.
And the problem with this is it's not producing the fruit
that we want it to. So in the book I talked about at
(07:51):
that time, I was using research that said 50% of kids are
walking away from their faith. Recent studies have put that
number close to 2/3. So without, if we're just
running those same place, Sundayschool youth group, drop the
kids off, you take it. We're seeing 2/3 of them walk
away from their faith after theygraduate.
And I don't think that's anybody's goal, but that's the
(08:14):
unintended consequence. Yeah.
And, you know, I, I see that a lot too, because there is this
sense of, OK, the children go tothe children's department.
Right, right. The youth.
Go to the youth department, right?
And then after you graduate fromhigh school, there's, there's
not a ton of resources out therein this young adult area.
And then it's almost like, OK, now I'm graduated from high
(08:37):
school and I suddenly go from a really cool youth group to now
I'm lumped in with my parents orright?
Right, right. Not you.
Can't be cool parents, but right, you know, but it's, it's
like it's, that's a big jump. Yep.
And but then there's also this aspect of deconstructing faith.
There's also this aspect of making faith your own.
(08:57):
And this was a period. This is why I'm drawn to young
adult ministry, because this wasa critical period in my life to
where I needed to kind of realize that, OK, I've been
taught all these things. That's.
Right. And for much of my life I
equated following Jesus with just going to church.
Like that was my relationship was I went to.
Church and I was. Done for the week.
I checked that box. Go home.
(09:18):
Yeah, that's a real tendency, I think, for a lot of people.
But then when I understood that there's so much more to this,
and now I believe what I believe.
Not because it was something that I was taught.
Not because that's what my Sunday school teacher told me,
but because Jesus is real to me and I have a relationship with
him. That's where we've got to get
people. I think that's.
(09:39):
Right. And that's something that
happens in adolescence or early adulthood.
And so that, you know, I think parents often when a teenager
begins to question their faith, it feels very threatening to a
parent when actually they need to do that because they actually
need to arrive at a place where they're choosing it for
(09:59):
themselves. And I don't, I think both the
church and just the average parent isn't set up well to know
how to handle that. So I was actually this morning
unrelated to this podcast. I was just thinking, we have a
whole crop of 5th graders at ourchurch heading into middle
school next year. And I was just thinking, I want
to run a seminar for parents of new middle schoolers just to
(10:23):
talk about what happens to a child's faith development as
they move into adolescence, justto get ahead of it and start to
say, like, yeah, this is what toexpect.
And this is what not to freak out about.
And this is how you can help them to dig deep, get, you know,
ask all their questions because actually they really, they need
to do that. So anyway, yeah, it's important.
(10:43):
It is and every stage of the journey is a little bit
different and that kind of takesme to the next place I wanted to
go with this. And that's the fact that you do
A What I love about your book isthat you explain it in a very
approachable way. Thanks.
You bring, you know, biblical wisdom in a way that's easy to
understand. A lot of a lot of times, you
know, I'm obviously you can see my bookshelf behind me.
(11:06):
I love books, but a lot of them are, you know, they're a little
over our heads. So the for the listeners out
there, you know, hey, you don't have to be a pastor, seminary
graduate, anything like that to understand a lot of what this is
written about. And you use humor, you use a lot
of visuals. I mentioned I love your charts.
You're a big chart fan and. I do love a visual guide, yes.
(11:28):
And I'm the. Same way, but explaining the
stages of spiritual development.Yeah.
And that's something I don't think we really get anywhere in
life. Yeah, They.
No one teaches us this. That's where you come in.
No one teaches us, you know, howto really maximize the potential
at this stage and how to maximize this potential at this
stage. But you do a really good job
(11:48):
explaining that. I don't want to get in the weeds
too much because I won't be ableto get your book, but thinking
of spiritual development, John Westerhof, you know, kind of
gives a structure for that. But there's four areas that you
talk about in the book, and thenyou go through that with the
different stages of life and thedifferent ages.
Can you give us kind of just a high overview of what that looks
like? Absolutely.
Yeah, so John Westerhof is the model that I use and really
(12:11):
like. So he talks about faith
development and children like the same way a tree adds rings.
So you don't there's stages, butyou don't move past the stage
and leave it in the dust. You just your faith becomes more
complex. So it's really helpful.
He has this line about when you look at a baby tree like a
sapling, it's nowhere near as complex and huge as a big oak
(12:34):
tree or something. But you wouldn't say it's not a
tree. You wouldn't say it's a pre
tree. It's a tree.
It's just a baby tree. And I think, I think with kids,
especially with little ones, we look at their, you know,
interaction with the church, with God, their prayer life.
And we say that's pre faith because they're not of the age
(12:55):
where they make a willful volitional decision to follow
Jesus. And so sometimes we wait and
wonder and we sort of in our minds, whether we would say it
out loud or not, we label that as pre faith.
And So what I love about this isthat each stage, no, this is
what faith looks like. So the first stage is called the
experiential stage, and that's little kids up to about school
(13:17):
age, so from birth to about 5 or6.
And really that one is about themode of spiritual engagement is
experience. It's about learning the actions,
the rituals, the stories, the songs of faith.
And so, you know, I have this little video that I love to
rewatch of my son, who was 2 reciting the Lord's Prayer.
(13:40):
And he's like, get it? He's like, doing it, doing it.
And then about halfway through, it just devolves into gibberish,
Like, it's just so funny. And then he might do that, you
know? Yeah.
And then it's like, Amen. And you could look at that and
say he has no idea what he's saying.
And that's one way to look at it.
The other way to look at it is this.
This is the Lord's gracious likemovement towards him.
(14:03):
When a child is raised in a Christian home, it's like these
little handholds that show him this is what following Jesus is
like. We pray, we talk to God, we
worship with other believers, we're part of a church.
So experiential is really about.There's a lot of mimicking in
it, but again, I see that as God's gracious, like pursuit of
(14:25):
a 2 year old. Yeah, I, you know, so, yeah.
So, yeah, go ahead. Really.
That's where I am with what withwooden bind right now, maybe,
yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 4-6 and eight,
and yeah, there's this real tendency to dismiss, right?
A lot. Of what they're doing, right?
They don't, you know, because you don't want to.
You don't want to make more of it than what it is.
I mean, I get that temptation, right?
(14:48):
But acknowledging it for what itis, I think is a beautiful thing
too. And technology, it is kind of a
baby step. It's a baby step in their
growth, a baby step in their development.
And there's a lot of value in surround and surrounding them
with some of these rituals and some of these rites that we go
through. And yeah, for them to halfway
understand the Lord's Prayer, right?
And maybe not even understand it, but to say it, I mean,
(15:09):
there's just, there's a lot of value in that.
And I, that's right. I don't want to gloss past that,
not just highlight it that sometimes we say, oh, they don't
know what they're doing. And I've seen the kids of like 2
year or I've seen videos of kidslike 2 years old and they're
raising their hands in worship and they're they're not, they
don't really. But you know what?
That's beautiful it. Is because they only know to do
that because they have been likethey're raised in a Christian
(15:32):
environment or in a Christian home.
They are mimicking and modeling.And that's not nothing, you
know, that's not so. Yeah, yeah.
So I think, I think sometimes when we dismiss that and we want
to see that moment later in childhood where they're inviting
Jesus into their heart, or even in adolescence where they're
(15:53):
like, we were just saying where they're really choosing it for
themselves. It puts a lot of emphasis on
our, the human side of the equation in conversion.
And I think what I like about learning to recognize and
celebrate what you see in a 2 year old and a three-year old is
that we have to remember God's the one who initiates this
relationship, you know, and he, there's nothing, even a, a mind
(16:17):
that's not fully developed that can prevent him from interacting
with that child. So I believe our children are
capable of intimacy with God. God, that is not even, it's not
the same as an adult intimacy. But yeah, so one of the
practices that we've done with our little ones is the practice
of the examine, which is it's anadult practice where you're sort
(16:38):
of talking over the day, where did you see God and where did
you miss God? And little kids can't answer
that question, but they can answer when were you happy
today? When were you sad today?
And who was with you all day? That awareness that God is with
them is something that is not just that mimicking of the
Lord's Prayer. Like they really know that God
(16:59):
is with them. And so there's things that you
can do at that young age, you know, to help them get a sense
of who God is. Help.
Us realize that the grace of Godsurpasses our understanding
that's. Right, that's right.
He. He created them.
That's right. And he knows how to commune with
them, and that's pretty cool. That's.
Yeah. And that's part of trusting that
(17:21):
this isn't all up to us or even up to them.
It's, you know, the Holy Spirit is at work.
And we can ask the Holy Spirit to minister and communicate with
our kids in ways we can't even appreciate and understand.
I really believe that. So, So yeah, that's that early
stage. And then around age like 7-6 or
seven, it's it's like elementaryschool.
(17:43):
John Westerhof calls it the affiliative stage.
And that is that they are movingfrom sort of a mimicking or a
modeling into a sense of belonging to the group.
So they want to, for example, they're not just mimicking out
of behavior, you know, sort of like instinct anymore.
They're mimicking because they want to be like mom and dad or
they want to be part of the group.
(18:04):
So the mantra of this group is Ibelieve because we believe like
that's how they think about faith.
And so at this stage, it's really helpful to connect the
child with the church. But so an example in this age.
So my son, my youngest son, is just about to be done with this
stage. But when he was about 9, my
husband has a spot in our house that's his prayer chair.
(18:26):
And he journals and has a special journal and special pens
that he uses. And Silas, you know, would watch
him doing that. And then one day said, like,
Dad, I want to get the exact same journal you have in the
same pens. And I want to do what you're
doing. And that's not just raising your
hands, not knowing exactly what that is.
That's Silas wanting the relationship with God that he
(18:47):
sees Greg having. So yes, in the affiliative
stage, it's about connection. My.
Daughter is going through that right now.
Nice, nice, she's. She's 8 and Yep, she's seen me
with my Bible and underlining and highlighting and she wanted
her own yes. Yes.
On highlighters yes and a place to write because you'll see me
right you know that that's an interesting I've experienced
(19:10):
though, so it's not something that's just you know OK, we've
got to make this happen but it it just kind of naturally occurs
it. Does it?
Does not. You know, it's not like, OK,
when they turn 7, they're going to be like this.
But no, it's. Just a natural.
And like you said, the trees like the example of the rings of
the tree, they don't outgrow theother one.
They just kind of add to it, right?
But I've experienced this latelyand and I resonate with you.
(19:31):
Call it like the squad, yes, thesquad stage or something like
that. Yes, they want to belong to that
squad. They do.
They want to do the things that they see others doing, not just
out of mimicry, right, but out of a genuine interest in like, I
want to be like them. Right, that's a pretty.
Cool place. Yeah, so this is where I would
recommend churches. You know, we usually start youth
(19:53):
group type things later our churches experimented with
doing. We had like the preteen boy
squad and we have girls Bible study where it's.
Helping them to connect with their peers in a meaningful ways
before they get older, like before middle school, because
really in this stage they are wanting to connect with the
group. So the fascinating thing,
(20:15):
though, is that Westerhof says this is where most American
churches finish their discipleship.
Sort of thinking for kids is that we provide experiences that
help them to believe because we believe, I believe, because the
group believes. And we carry that into middle
school and high school with sortof typical youth group
experiences. Sure.
(20:36):
Because the next stage is that searching stage where their
primary mode of spiritual engagement is to question, to
reject, to RIP apart. And so if we don't anticipate
that and we don't see that as a positive thing, we just continue
this kind of like, oh, come to youth group, you know, and this
was a little bit of my story in a way of just I loved in high
(21:01):
school being with my Christian friends, right?
I loved that. And there's, we don't want to
downplay that, but we also need to help each child make a
decision in in adolescence, an. Individual decision, right?
Because if they don't, then theyleave home or they leave the
primary faith community, they gooff to college, whatever they
do, and then they don't know howto follow Jesus without that.
(21:23):
We. Yeah, without that.
So, yeah. So I was thankful, you know,
also in high school, I had a distinct moment that I responded
to. It was actually just like a
pretty traditional altar call. But I think that combined with
that community experience meant that when I went to college, I
wasn't, I knew how to follow Jesus without my Christian high
(21:43):
school friends. But I think a lot of a lot of
students, I think graduate with that mentality of I believe
because my family believes and my church believes in my youth
group believes and we don't knowhow to follow Jesus into
adulthood and. When you leave that safe space,
and I see this a lot, when you leave that safe space of OK,
everyone around me believes the same, right?
(22:04):
Right. Right now.
I'm going into an increasingly more secular culture.
Yes, that is at best, like you said, neutral against
Christianity, but we're not really seeing that a whole lot
anymore, right? Right, it's a.
Lot of antagonism, Yep. Then how do I now follow Jesus
when everything that I knew about following Him was the we?
(22:25):
That's right and. That's such an important stage
and you know, thinking about it from the parental point of view,
right. So mine's, mine's not quite
there yet. I love how you call this the
police don't freak out stage exactly something like that, I
think. But yes, because, yeah, there is
this real tendency to think that, Oh, my kids are asking
questions, I haven't done a goodjob.
(22:45):
Exactly. And, and really, I think it's
about fostering that environmentof #1 you can ask questions, it
is OK God can take our questions, yes.
He's big enough, yes. He's not.
Threatened by our doubts and ourquestions?
No. But then to kind of saying, you
know, I want you to bring them to me.
I want you to bring them to the church.
You know, I don't, I don't want you asking these questions out
there somewhere because culture and and the secular world that
(23:08):
we live in will give you a different answer.
That's. Right, that's.
Not the truth, that's a counterfeit truth, right?
But if we are in a places where they can bring those questions,
and then there's the whole aspect of, yeah, we may not feel
equipped to answer those questions.
Right, right. Then then that's when we kind of
start freaking out. That's right.
Well, I think we have two tendencies depending on our
(23:29):
personality. 1 is to sort of shut the question down.
And I think a lot of people havethis story of, you know, even
going to like religious school. I don't know what it's like in
Georgia, but up in New England, a lot of folks go to Catholic
school and then try to ask a question in their experiences
that got shut down. You know, so I think one
(23:49):
response that's unhelpful is to shut it down and sort of make
the kid feel bad for asking or like, you know, the answer to
that, blah, blah, blah. That's one thing that I think
most of us can say, OK, I can see how that's unhelpful.
I think the other unhelpful instinct is to just too quickly
answer it, like just say, well, this is the answer.
Both of those are sort of anxious responses.
(24:10):
And instead, I think the best approach, if we can, is to say,
I'm so glad you're asking. Like this is so important.
And I think when we know developmentally this is
appropriate, this is normal. This doesn't mean there's
something wrong with their faith.
They actually have to ask. And I think every child,
depending on their personality, is going to be asking different
(24:32):
types of questions. So my oldest, who is a he's just
a fax guy. He loves to read.
He's like, oh gosh, his memory, He knows everything.
You know, he's going to come at you with the tell me why this
genealogy and this gospel is different from this one.
And how do we know? You know he's going to come with
those trying to. Reconcile it all, yes.
The Bible kind of questions, other kids are more, it's like
(24:54):
they're shepherd questions like,well, what about my friends who
don't know Jesus? Or what about this person who
isn't living the way that the Bible says or what, you know,
it's more emotional. And then for me, I think my
questions were more, how do I, is Christianity, is following
Jesus really going to like make me miserable?
Do you know what I mean? Because I, I just wanted to like
(25:16):
fit in and be cool and have fun.And I think my questions were
like, am I going to, is this like social, you know, is this
like a social death sentence? And so those were the questions.
I think every child is going to have different questions, but I
think parents the IT, the more we can say, man, I'm so glad
you're asking and let me help you find an answer without
(25:38):
answering it for them. Yeah.
And I think that's, that's an important distinction too, is
when they start asking these questions, I'm with you.
It's not super helpful to just give them the answer no, because
then that's just kind of more that memorization.
It said knowledge, right? I think maybe a better way and
and you can maybe add to this isto to help them discover the
answer for themselves. Exactly, you know.
(25:59):
Exactly. And I love the way Jesus kind of
modeled this for us because a lot of people ask Jesus
questions. Yes.
And Jesus a lot of times didn't just give the answer yes.
A lot of times he met a questioneither with another question.
That's right, which is my favorite way.
Brilliant. Yeah.
Yeah, or he would kind of help guide them to the answer.
And a lot of times we may feel as adults and as parents that we
(26:20):
don't have those answers. You know, maybe we're not as
confident as we should be and maybe it's an opportunity for
you to kind of together, yes, explore some of those depths of
the faith that you believed and make it a bonding experience.
What are your thoughts on that? Is that a?
100% I think if you don't know the answer and it's one of those
facts kind of questions, be honest, you know, don't try to
(26:42):
hide it, but just say, you know,I actually don't know.
Let's look that up together or let's talk to our pastor or
let's, you know, let's find a book we can read.
So yes, I think being honest when you feel like you don't
have a great answer. So one one thing, you know, to
some of the questions about whatabout my friends or what about
(27:03):
all these other narratives that I'm hearing in the culture that
don't square with Christianity? I think that's going to be a big
question. Sexuality, you know, all kinds
of things, right? I think it's really important
that we do the math ourselves onhow is this narrative good news.
If we can't answer that, I thinkthat's going to be difficult
(27:23):
when our teens come to us and want to know.
So I do think, yeah, it's OK to not have all the facts questions
about the Bible. We can find those.
But I think some of those deeperquestions about how would you
describe, for example, how the biblical narrative around
sexuality is good news in our moment?
If you can't answer that for yourselves, do the math.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
(27:44):
Do a little, do a little homework.
Yeah. Before, before you get asked.
Yeah, before you get put on the spot.
No way. You can't have an answer.
Yes. But here's another thing.
So I'll give you a real life example.
Our son one time, yeah, it was like, I don't know, because we
in our family, we just have always talked about being able
to hear God's voice. And we've taught our kids from a
(28:04):
young age how to listen to the Lord and how to hear God's
voice. And it in early teen years, one
of our kids was, yeah, like, I don't know if I have heard God's
voice in a long time. I don't know if I can hear God's
voice. I don't know if God is real.
Like it went down this rabbit trail.
And so there is this freak out of like, Oh my gosh, I don't
know what to say. You know, So what we did, and
(28:26):
I'm not saying this to say like,oh, we did it right.
But I, it was sort of a I'm following my own advice was to
say, you know what, why don't wetry an experiment like for two
weeks, let's before you go to bed, just take some time to
listen and journal and, you know, pray.
I'm just not even acknowledging that he said, I don't know if
(28:49):
God is real. I'm like, I know we're just
going to talk to him anyway. I'm not that I didn't
acknowledge it, but more like I didn't let that I'm not trying
to prove anything to him. I'm just saying, let's just try
an experiment. So for two weeks, he added this
in of just some prayer journaling, and lo and behold,
he felt like the Lord was speaking to him.
And so it just was like I didn'tgive him the answer.
(29:11):
I gave him an assignment. Yeah.
He gave him a tool. Yes.
And I think when we can do that kind of thing, like you just
said, it's about helping them todiscover the answer.
Because if I had sat him down and said no, but remember this
time you heard God's voice. This is how God speaks.
And no, I know that, you know, blah, blah, blah.
Like that's just going to, it's going to deflate him.
(29:31):
But I gave him an assignment andhe.
Did it? I love that.
Yeah. And, and you're right, there is,
I think that panic rises up in US.
I'm raising an atheist. Oh no.
No, it's natural, right? But realizing those questions
are normal, I think that's kind of the point of this.
And then yes, the last stage is kind of the on the stage, yeah.
(29:52):
And and kind of how does that it's not AI guess it's kind of
the next thing from searching, but how is that different?
Yeah, and own I mean that's sortof the that's the fully mature
tree that, you know, Westerhoff would say is like when you have
fully decided. I followed Jesus for myself and
you know, I think in churches some important threshold
(30:13):
somewhere in the process to cross or things like baptism or
confirmation or, you know, some way to mark this is an adult
decision. And I do think, you know, a lot
of a lot of times we emphasize decision making in conversions
from, you know, nothing to following Jesus.
And I really do think when we'reraising Jesus followers, we do
(30:34):
have to emphasize those decisionmoments, even when they have
known Jesus their whole life. And that again, that was my
story is that I can point to a moment.
So yeah, owned faith is really the it's the mature tree.
Yeah. And, and I like thinking of
these as milestones and, and it looks different for every kid.
You know, you're not going to expect them all to go through,
(30:54):
correct, the same exact thing and the same amount of time,
correct. You may have some older that are
kind of in the same place as a younger one.
I joke around, we've got 1 1/2 and in two of those places,
because yes, one's kind of in the middle.
Yep. But every, every child's
different. But if we think about it as
milestones and what we realize is that we do serve a God who
initiates a relationship with each and every one of his
(31:17):
creation. You know, we have the ability to
say no to that. We have the ability to not
listen, but within, we also havethe ability to foster that.
We have the ability to be able to foster that not only in our
own lives, but in in our children's lives.
And so realizing that God's at work in your child, no matter
how old or how young. Yeah, I.
Think it's just a big part of the take home that I wanted to
(31:39):
be able to bring out here. Yeah, is.
That your child may be just kindof going through the motions.
Don't dismiss that that's. Right, there's value.
That's right, your child. May be asking some hard
questions my middle child and he's a classic middle child he's
the six year old we went throughthe Easter season recently and
he was kind of confused about Jesus dying and then like being
(32:02):
raised again and it's. Confusing.
Yeah, genuinely. Typically, dead people stay
dead. Exactly.
And so then he started asking some questions.
He's asking them to my wife. And she's like, well, go get,
you've got the wrong parent. Go ask the other.
No, she helped him through something.
But we were kind of together. And I'm like, well, he said, so
(32:22):
am I going to die? I'm like, well, yeah.
He went through that Easter story.
He kind of faced the real realization of his own
mortality. Yeah, and.
That created a whole different rabbit trail, Yes.
And then he said, well, am I going to raise again too?
Or rise again too? Like Jesus?
I'm like, well, I mean, yeah, you will.
And being able to explain that in a way that a six year old can
(32:43):
understand, I don't think anybody feels.
I know. Ready.
I think you're. Able to do that, but being able
to just kind of plant some of those seeds and realizing
they're not going to grow right now.
That's right. But you've had that
conversation. Yep.
And he's going to be thinking onthat for months and years to
come. And at some point that's going
to come back up and he's going to have a fuller understanding
(33:03):
of it. That's right.
But God's working and God is continuously working our kids.
And so realizing that, realizingthese milestones is really,
really helpful. Yeah.
Being able to come alongside them to kind of, you know, kind
of be able to help them through this journey because that's
absolutely, yes. If we're we can raise them to be
the most successful people in the world, but I feel like we
(33:24):
have failed if we haven't raisedthem to love Jesus and totally.
And so that's your heart. That's my heart, I.
Know it's umm yeah it's I just heard this somebody was quoting
someone talking about how the word priority was not plural you
know people didn't use that in aplural way until like the last
century right so priorities whendid we think that there could be
(33:49):
more than one priority right andso I feel that way about
discipleship This is I mean obviously I want good things for
my kids but if they love Jesus and have a really low paying job
that's better than the other wayaround you know what I.
Mean. And so, yeah, I just, I think
that's something that I feel pretty passionate about, is
(34:11):
helping parents to see this is the only thing that truly
matters. This is the goal of parenting.
Yeah. And there's there's studies that
show that Christian parents, priorities, plural, match the
culture. You know, most Christian parents
want to see their kids work hardmore than anything else and then
go to college second. But the idea of following Jesus
is pretty low on that list. And I think that should be high.
(34:34):
Yeah. And the work you're doing is
really putting it in its place. And so again, appreciate all
you're doing for the Kingdom, all you've.
Helped. Us with in our parenting journey
and we'll continue as we as we progress on a little bit
further. Hey, where can my listeners find
out more about you and the work you're doing?
You've got the book a you're on a couple different places now.
(34:54):
IVP is really putting out some neat stuff and putting you at
the forefront. So where can my listeners get
into your world? Yeah.
Thank you. So I have a website, it's just
my name, Sarah Cowan johnson.comand there's free resources
there. And then yeah, links to all the
all the other things too. Awesome.
Well, thank you so much, Sarah. This has been a pleasure.
Yeah, appreciate. Personally, I appreciate it.
(35:17):
And then also professionally forthe podcast, for my listeners
out there, you guys check out her book.
It is a tremendous resource for parenting.
You're going to love every bit of it.
There's not a whole lot of booksI read where I'm just like
laughing throughout the whole thing.
And then I'm also like underlining and like taking
notes. And that's one of them.
So thanks for being faithful to the Lord's calling on your life,
and we thank you so much. Just pray blessings on you and
(35:38):
your family. Thank you.
It's been a joy to talk to you and you as well.
Listeners, hang in there. You got this.
We're going to end the way we started.
Raising young Jesus followers isnot for the faint of heart.
That's. Right, that's the.
Most important thing you and. The Holy Spirit make an
incredible team. Amen.
Amen. Bless you, Sir.
Take care. Thank you.
Bye. Thank you for listening to the
(36:01):
Rev RX Podcast. We hope you enjoyed what you
heard today and if so, we'd loveit if you would hit that
subscribe button so that you'll never miss a new episode from
us. Also, feel free to leave us
reviews and comments as we'd love to hear from you.
Be blessed and be the very best you.
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