August 20, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode of the RevRx Podcast, Chad Potts sits down with Pastor Dean Inserra, lead pastor of City Church in Tallahassee and author of The Unsaved Christian. Together, they tackle the hard questions about cultural Christianity—why so many people in the Bible Belt claim the name of Christ but haven’t experienced saving faith.
Dean shares his personal story of planting City Church, the dangers of “good people go to heaven” theology, and why cultural Christianity is more of an evangelism issue than a discipleship issue. He unpacks how rites of passage, family heritage, or generic theism can blind people from their need for Jesus, and points us back to the heart of the gospel: salvation through Christ alone.
What you’ll hear in this episode:
Why cultural Christianity is widespread in the Bible Belt
The difference between being religious and truly knowing Jesus
Why rites of passage (like the sinner’s prayer or baptism) aren’t substitutes for faith
How parents can disciple their kids without rushing them into empty traditions
The urgency of moving from “checking the Christian box” to real gospel transformation
📚 Learn more about Dean Inserra’s book The Unsaved Christian on Amazon.
🌐 Connect with Dean on Instagram/X: @deaninserra
👉 Subscribe to the RevRx Podcast so you don’t miss future episodes on faith, family, and thriving in every area of life.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
Hello and welcome back to the Rev RX Podcast where we show you
how to thrive in faith, family, and help.
My name is Chad Potts and I'm your host.
Today I'm joined by Pastor Dean and Sarah.
Dean is the lead pastor at City Church in Tallahassee.
He's the author of The Unsaved Christian, which is first.
What drew me to him. And what you're going to
(00:32):
discover today is that Dean has a powerful message about one of
the greatest challenges facing the church in America today,
cultural Christianity. What do you do when people claim
the name of Christ but have never really experienced God's
grace? We're going to dig into that
question today, and Dean shares a clear gospel centered message,
(00:53):
gospel centered perspective of how to move beyond checking
boxes to truly knowing Jesus andtruly knowing his love for you.
You're not going to want to missthis conversation.
So without further ado, I introduced to you my friend Dean
and Sarah Dean. Brother, thank you so much for
(01:15):
joining us today on the podcast.Been a fan of your work for a
while, so this is really and truly a privilege for me to sit
down with you and just unpack some of your work.
So thanks for being here. Thanks invitation.
I really appreciate that. It's good to be with you.
Yes, Sir, I'd love for you just to introduce yourself a little
bit to my listeners. For those that don't already
know you, can you tell us a little bit, as much as little as
you want. I'm about how you landed where
(01:35):
you are today. They're in Tallahassee doing
great work for the Lord. Well, I'm pastor in Tallahassee,
FL at City Church, a church we started in the summer of 2007
with about 20 people and it's seen Lord just doing amazing
work. Since then, we just had our
Easter service in a Florida State's basketball arena.
Like in the it's the things Lordhave done.
I've been, it's been incredible and I'm just really grateful
I've had I baptized my Little League baseball coach a few
(01:58):
years ago. Yeah, just been, I'm from
Tallahassee. It's just been neat.
I'm just really grateful for all.
I'm just reminded regularly of the scripture where what do you
have that you didn't receive that it all was great.
So I'm just thankful for that. It's a real heart for for
cultural Christianity. And by that I mean people who
think they're Christians and they're not.
I'm not the judge of who's a Christian or do I want to be?
(02:18):
But the scriptures are clear that there are people who will
say Lord, Lord, didn't I do all these things and and he'll tell
them I never knew you because their answer is their own
religiousness rather than the righteousness of Christ on their
breath. So that's to get ahead.
But that's that's really a heartbeat of mind.
That's where I grew up in. I came to Lord.
What does that and then also I'mI'm been married for 21 years,
(02:39):
have 4 kids. We have an interesting age
range. We had a little surprise in our
house. So I have a graduating senior in
high school, a 14 year old, a 10year old, and then we have a 2
year old. Wow, so quite, quite the age
your age here. I've been my mid 40s and I'm a 2
year old. But but it's been it's been
great. It's been massive adjustment,
but it's been really great. That's so that's that's our life
(03:01):
in Tallahassee and just love thelocal church.
Big fan of it. I really think that we that
Christians need to unapologetically believe the
local church is God's designing and love their church and be a
part of their church. And so that's part of our
ministry here is, is making local church a big deal because
it makes Jesus a big deal. I love every bit of that.
Yeah, you got to love the littlesurprise at the end.
Oh man, let me tell you what. I'm in my early 40s and we our
(03:26):
kids are younger. We waited a little longer to
have kids, but mine are basically 4-6 and eight.
And yeah. And so we're kind of right there
in the middle of where of where you are.
And so I know that was, you know, both equally fun,
exciting, all of those good things, but also like, man,
we're starting over. 18 all the way to two.
Yeah, yeah. Love it you.
(03:47):
Got built in babysitters, right?That's.
Right. Then we do it for sure.
I love it. Well, man, your book, The
Unsaved Christian has been formative for me.
And one of the reasons I was first drawn to it is because I'm
like you. I'm in a Bible Belt just a few
hours north of you. And, you know, cultural
Christianity, the way that you describe it, and I'll let you
define that in just a minute, but it is it's, it's normal.
(04:08):
It's mainstream here. And you know, there is a real
sense that Jesus can transform lives.
But yet we look around and we see a lot of people who profess
to be Christians and their livesmaybe don't tell that out.
And again, that's not from judgement shame, and that's not
for us to figure out. But there really is a calling to
your book that calls people to adeeper relationship.
(04:30):
And that's what I'm after, and that's my story.
Yeah, and I think it's almost more of a belief thing and a
conviction thing, even before it's a lifestyle thing.
Yeah. So I was in my.
Seminary parking lot. I get ready to head back to
Tallahassee. My home is the crow flies is
about 10 or 12 miles from the Georgia border.
So very bad. There's so bio belt elements
here. I mean, Florida states here,
(04:51):
state capitals, they're really alittle bit of everybody.
But for the local Tallahassee and like myself, there's like a
more of a generational Bible Belt kind of culture.
And so I thought a little missional guilt is what I call
it about that. Like you're always told like you
need to go to the big city up north, throughout West.
And I really know there are a lot of people who go and do that
because there's great needs out there.
But my seminary neighbor was going to be a part of a church
(05:12):
planting team in Northern California.
So he's going to Northern California and I'm going 10
miles from the Georgia border. So I have a little missional
guilt, like he's the one really getting out there and I'm the
one kind of taking the easy way.And so I did try to like, I
think, I think I was trying to make myself feel better by
building him up. Like, I admire you.
It's so great. And he cut me off and said, oh,
(05:32):
stop that. And I said what?
He said where I'm going, it's easier than where you're going.
I said, what the heck are you talking about?
He said, wrong going. There's no confusion over who's
a Christian, who's not like people know.
They're like, they're not Christians where you're going.
Everybody thinks they're fine. It's almost like you got to get
someone lost in order to get them saved.
And I just needed to hear that. And I knew that, but I needed to
(05:56):
hear that. And the reality is when you look
at the Scriptures, it's often those who claim to be religious
are the ones that Jesus is reaching, that seem to be the
people that are the most clueless about it.
When it's the person that is bottomed out and knows they are,
that is more willing to accept the gospels.
And let's say the person who's down and out and knows they're
broken is much easier to reach than the person who thinks
they're fine. That sounds obvious, but that's
(06:16):
so much a ministry in this part of the country is people who
think they're Christians and they're not.
And what I mean by that is let'ssay you walked into a
Chick-fil-A and saw somebody. We're going Christian fast food
hearing. And and he saw someone and he
just said, hey, are you a Christian?
That would kind of be a weird greeting.
But if you're in a conversation asking if they're a Christian
and they said yes, and most likely they would say yes.
(06:38):
And if you ask them, you know, I'm just curious, what makes you
a Christian? Here's what they would likely
say. They would say, well, you know,
I believe in God. I'm a good person.
I go to church when I can, you know, all the time.
But, you know, I go to church when I can.
You know, I'm pretty spiritual person.
Yeah, Yeah, I'm a Christian. Notice what did not come out of
their mouth? The name of Jesus Christ.
(06:58):
Can you really have a saving faith if Jesus isn't a part of
what defines you as a Christian?Yeah.
And so that really is a modern day workspace righteousness.
It's like a generic theism wherethey believe because they're not
atheists. Yeah.
That they're a Christian, right?Yeah.
So it's real. It's a really hard person to
reach as opposed to a person whoknows they're not a believer
like that, that knows like Stickor a key theist or a Muslim or a
(07:21):
Buddhist. Like it's clearly what they are.
As opposed to the South where simply not being something
people think they are something.Well, and and I see that a lot
and I've shared it with the young adults up pastor about
different surveys that have beendone.
And you know, it it they're always alarming because they're
like a lot of everybody that considers themselves a Christian
(07:43):
and they check the box that saidthey're Christian in the survey,
you know, XYZ, whatever conclusion you want to draw.
You know, so many of them don't believe in the Trinity and
different things like that. And you know, we've had
discussions because I like that be kind of open-ended in some of
this. I'm like, well, what, why do you
think that is? But are we not doing a good job
in the church or what does that look like?
And I think a large part of it, part of it is exactly what you
(08:03):
said. We checked that box called
Christian, and we check that because we're not atheist, you
know, we check it because we're not Hindu, we're not Buddhist.
And so, you know, the only logical conclusion there is is
Christian, you know, Christianity.
And we go to church sometimes. We were raised that way, you
know, And it's almost like in this part of the country, and
(08:24):
I'm speaking largely, you know, Bible Belt here in this part of
the country, it's almost like ifyou're not, if you don't
consider yourself Christian, that's almost something to be
ashamed of, right? Yeah, and people will know and
they'll notice. Again, that's changing some.
But here's the reality. Let's say you had a form to fill
out and you're sitting in the doctor's office and they ask you
you're religion. Yeah, right.
What, You're going down the formand it's like, well, I'm not
(08:46):
nothing. I'm not no religion.
So you move on. And you know for a fact I'm not
Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu.
What am I? And then you check Christian.
So really, there's been no category for cultural
Christianity. So for far too long we have seen
cultural Christianity as a discipleship issue.
Yeah. And that's how we get
frustrated. Why did, why can't he just get
(09:06):
it? You know, what's his deal?
Why is he just getting more serious about his faith when I
think we've gone about the wrongway?
Cultural Christianity is not a discipleship issue.
It's an evangelism issue. These people actually don't know
Jesus. Rather than being frustrated
towards them, we should see themas people who are sheep without
a shepherd and see them and see them as someone who's no just as
lost as the Buddhist or the atheist or the agnostic.
(09:28):
They just used some Christian lingo and had maybe some
Christian we would call values. But those things don't save,
right? Those things don't remedy the
fact that we are guilty before God of our sin and need to be
forgiven. So I think we need to make sure
we are clear on the category. Cultural Christianity is not a
discipleship issue. It's an evangelism issue and see
it as a mission field for us. And I think cultural
Christianity is really great forAmerica.
(09:49):
I mean Christian values. And I think it's great for our
country. It's really bad for the Kingdom
of God because it can be misleading and and it really is
misleading and make people thinkthey're saved when they're
actually not. And that's a really good
thought. I haven't thought about that
before. It's good for the country.
Oh yeah. Because it it put, you know, and
you see this in some of this Christian nationalism.
And maybe that's a different topic, but you know, the pushing
(10:11):
of Christian values, Hey, I mean, that's a good thing for
the country. You know, what's alternative,
Right. Yeah, exactly.
Or do you want Sharia law? I mean, it's so easy to go.
Christian nationalism. Christian nationalism.
I would love for America to be more Christian.
Yeah, absolutely. So.
But it's not good for the Kingdom because it's it's
misleading. It blinds you.
(10:32):
And so along those lines of it'san evangelistic issue, and I
really like the way that you phrase that.
It becomes kind of a mission of sorts for us to be able to help
people unpack that. And in order is so one of the
things you say, and you mentioned this earlier in the
interview, you almost have to help them get lost before you
let them get saved, before you can help them be found.
(10:54):
I'd love for you to unpack that for us a little bit.
What does that look like and what are some ways that you have
found that are helpful to reallyget the attention of of these
folks? Because you're right.
Like, you know, you feel like you're good and you don't really
like somebody coming along telling you you're not.
But you also you know that falseassumption is not helping
anybody either. Yeah, well, you can be clear
about sin and not tell someone for an hour how wretched they
(11:16):
are. That's just not a great starting
point because they don't think that like they really think
they're fine. Like they think they're good
people. So.
So we really get to get them lost in order to get them saved.
Obviously God does the work. The Holy Spirit is the one that
opens up their eyes. But but God uses people, right?
Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God.
So I think it has to be a central component of your
preaching and not just in the South anywhere, because
(11:37):
workspace righteousness is that default mode.
So everybody thinks they're a good person and what's the most
probably held view in all of religion in America?
It's probably just the idea thatgood people go to heaven.
Yes, everybody thinks that, right?
Yes. So even like the atheist is like
we know he's in a better place. You don't know what we mean by
that, but just kind of where they.
(11:58):
So I think it's one of those things where we have to make
sure we're clear on who God really is because generic feed
them is going to make us be people who don't see our need
before God. Because God just wanted a big
guy upstairs or a glorified Santa or a Yoda figure from Star
Wars. The fact that I'd sinned against
him is really not that big of a deal.
He understands. He's OK with it kind of those
(12:20):
ideas. So here's what I do is people
all believe they're good people,right?
So everybody, people think that good people go to heaven and
everybody thinks they're good. Pretty weird place.
So there's nobody in hell. Yeah, and except for really bad
people. And you're like people who hurt
children, dictators, I mean, that kind of.
Yeah. So what I say is I'll be in the
conversation. I just in the pulpit a lot.
(12:41):
And I'll say, you know what? You you think you're a good
person. And that's what's blinding you
from seeing your need for Jesus.But you know what?
I believe you. I believe you that you're a good
person. I even know a lot of you.
I think you're great people. And then I pause and I say, I
think you're great people by thestandards of this world.
But God does not judge us by howwe measure up the suburban
(13:01):
morality in Tallahassee in 2025.And that standard is himself.
So when he just one sin I've committed against him is he will
not as a holy God let sin go unpunished.
So I'm going to stand before Godand be held accountable for my
sins or Jesus who never sinned is going to stand in my place
(13:21):
for me. Like choose wisely.
And then again, most of these people would admire Jesus or
claim to believe in Jesus. They might even have a nativity
scene on their mantle at Christmas time.
So I quote Galatians 221, which is such an important verse.
It says I will not nullify the grace of God, for if
righteousness can be attained bykeeping the law, which is
(13:43):
basically good, people go to heaven, right then Jesus died
for nothing. Doesn't it sound blasphemous
even to say that? It does and.
I'll say when you think that you're fine and being a good
person gets you to heaven, you're holding up a huge flashy
neon sign that screams Jesus died for nothing.
Our good Fridays is a tragedy. Christmas has no point to
(14:05):
celebrate. Who cares?
The Son of Man came to seek and save the lost and who cares if
you're fine on your own because he died for no reason.
And Easter just makes no sense. So really these cultural
Christian holidays they celebrate are completely
contradictory to the reality that good people go to heaven.
So you just have to really take that apart and show.
But again, it all goes back to our view of God.
Most important thing about you, I think is Tozer, who said it is
(14:27):
what comes to your mind when youthink about God.
So when God is very generic, very vague, that kind of generic
theism. I'm not an atheist, therefore
I'm a Christian, then sin's not a big deal.
But when you but we don't get topick and choose who God is.
He's revealed himself to us. He has shown us who he is and I
think it's an act of love. It's for his glory and also out
of his love that he's shown us who he is.
And then we see who he is. We realize we're accountable for
(14:49):
how we've sinned against him andthat's why we need Jesus.
He did die for a purpose. He died for us, right?
Depending on the penalty of our sins, right?
So he's our substitute. He died in our place.
But the cultural Christian, there's no category for that
that they they believe probably Jesus died on the cross that
just the personal aspect of there's actually 4 my sins.
They see it more generically. He kind of died for it was just
(15:10):
sort of symbol or a second random sacrifice.
Yeah. So we have to make sure that in
the pulpit, especially in a Bible study somewhere else, that
we're, I'll put it this way, that we're picking apart
workspace righteousness every time.
That's so good. Because that's the default mode.
Every sermon, at some point I doit.
No matter what I'm talking aboutsomewhere, I do it.
Yeah, and you're right. You know, we've we've become
(15:32):
fans of Jesus, I think. Was it Kyle Adelman?
Yeah. Yeah, you know, fan or follower,
we've become big, we're big fans.
We admire Jesus. We, we, we think that he's a
good teacher. We think that, that you, like
you said, he's a Yoda figure, you know it.
But really that's, that's not, that's not Jesus.
That's not the Jesus that we know.
And and being able to show people that the personal part
(15:56):
and that's what I missed for most of my adult life.
People who, who are listening tothis, my listeners, you know, a
lot of a lot of times we know the story of all right, I
realized that going to church was a big part of Christianity.
And for me, that's, that was theextent of it for large, large
part of my life. If I wanted to follow Jesus
closer, I went to church more and I understood 0 about the
(16:18):
personal part. I just knew, OK, these things
are expected of me. And if I check these boxes and
if I do these things, then I must be good enough because
after all, no one's perfect. So I think the good outweighs
the bad and therefore I'm good. And I think a lot of people get
in that in that boat, don't they?
A lot of people get in that rut of thinking, you know, well, as
long as my good outweighs my bad, I'm probably going to
heaven. And you know, God doesn't really
(16:39):
care about sin too much because Jesus died and he's just a good
guy. He's gonna let everybody in and
you know, the end of the story. But.
You're thinking your good deeds cancel out your bad deeds.
It's like thinking your Diet Coke cancels out your large fry,
right? You know, it's just, it's just,
yeah, it's your unsweet tea cancels out your double
cheeseburger. You know, it's the calories
don't count. You know, like that.
No matter how many good deeds wedo, it doesn't remedy the fact
(17:01):
that we have sent, you know, andGod will hold us accountable for
that. So the things of the routine
like of going to church, the disciplines, those are very good
things. We should make sure that we
think those things don't actually make us right with God.
Those are. Those are a response to the fact
that we are right with God and we want to have a relationship
with him. And so so I think we need to
champion the routines. But we over and over again
(17:22):
remind people these are not whatmakes us Christian.
What makes us a Christian is Jesus, you know, what he's done
for us. And so I think that we get it
backwards sometimes, like you talked about, you know, I think
about the the Pharisee and the text collector in Luke 18 with a
Pharisee said, God, I thank you'll not like this guy over
here. And then he gives his resume.
He says they're all adulterers, They're greedy.
(17:44):
I fast twice a week. I give a portion of everything I
get. He's not lying.
He actually did do those things.He really did fast.
He really wasn't an adulterer. He really wasn't greedy.
You know, he really was generouswith his money and all those
things are good things. The issue is so by our
standards, he would be a good person.
(18:04):
But. He thought those things made him
righteous with a tax cut. You're standing there is a
Sinner just as much a Sinner as the Pharisee is, but it looked
different and he has nothing to appeal to because he's aware of
his sin before God and he his only thing he can say is God
have mercy on me, right? And Jesus said the good news is
God answered his prayer and Jesus had mercy on him.
And he says that guy, the tennisfactor went away justified, like
(18:27):
made right with God, not the other guy.
So the guy who had all the rightthings that did all the right
things was not right with God. He's still under the bed in that
wild, but he's not lying. All the things he said he did
are true. Like the Pharisee.
He was that devout. He was those things, but he
thought those things would make him righteous and they do not.
Well, and I'm reminded of the words of Paul who who gave his
(18:47):
his pedigree. Yes, he gave his resolve great
call and then said it's all for nothing.
Yeah, it compared I considering Christ.
And so you're, you're exactly right.
We get it opposite. We think that by doing the good
things it puts us in right standing with God, when in
reality what we find is that by by getting right with God first,
by experiencing the salvation that only Christ offers us, then
(19:11):
out of an overflow of that, that's where our good deeds come
in. Because if not, then the reality
is Galatians 221 then Christ died for nothing.
Yep, love it. Love it.
In your book, you you describe acouple of other types of unsaved
Christians. There's the wolves and sheep's
clothing, clothing the hypocrites.
Can you unpack that a little bitfor us?
Because I think that's good to see in contrast.
Yeah, there's just, there's so many categories of it, right?
(19:33):
Like it's easy to go, oh, Bible Belt, but you think about like
what is progressive ChristianityToday?
You're those plan to be Christians, but like deny the
exclusivity of Christ or deny A bodily resurrection or a virgin
birth. Like, I'm sorry, like you're not
a Christian if you don't believethose things, right?
So that would be someone who claims to be a Christian, but
they're not. You know, they're an unsaved
Christian. And the whole title unsaved
(19:55):
Christian means that people would claim to be Christians,
but their reason for believing so has nothing to do with the
Bible would say is actually saving faith.
They identify as Christians, butthey're but they're unsaved.
So I talk about that person. I talk about the person that's
just kind of God and country, right?
Their faith isn't about Jesus. It's more just kind of God Bless
America. Get goosebumps during the Lee
Greenwood the song. They're just really cry.
(20:16):
We love the troops, you know, fist pump kind of thing.
And they just kind of equated the idea of faith into their
kind of American understanding of it.
And then I'm all for patriotism.I'm very patriotic and but
that's not Christianity, right Like that.
That's just that's called just being grateful for your country.
The Christian response, I think to love your country and be
thankful for it. That's not Christian unity, you
(20:36):
know, So like, what would you doif you moved to Poland tomorrow?
So like it's not confined to just a certain culture and way
of life, the body of Christ and that so, so that that would be
another one. There are sports culture.
You see a lot of it where like every team like prays before the
game and you point to the sky when you score a touchdown.
And I think all that's fine. But like those people know
Jesus. I mean, some might, some not,
(20:57):
some might, some might, but it'sso all these things you got to
be careful of where rather than us being an expression of our
faith, it's more kind of a tradition or a good luck charm
or a rally cry or a mascot for America or for gods, none of
those things. So those are some areas where
the hypocrite is, would be one that just, you know, knows the
(21:19):
right things to say, you know, kind of has that maybe comes
from a Christian family originally and knows the right
answers. But their hearts out of the
Lord, they don't care, you know,they're serving themselves.
But there's some examples that come to mind of some of some
categories. If you have any more you want to
ask me about that. Yeah, that's fine.
No, that's helpful, you know, and it shows us just how
intertwined all of this is. Yeah, generational Catholics.
Cultural Catholics would be 1. You know, where they don't even
(21:43):
believe anything but still claimthey're Catholic.
And I do think there's some Catholics that get it, you know,
But the kind of person like my grandfather, he claims like his
sons are Catholic. That's why that's in the book.
And one of his sons is an atheist, but my grandpa claims
he's Catholic. And so for some cultural
Catholics, being a Catholic is more important than actually
(22:04):
believing, you know, sort of. So that'd be another example.
That's good. I want to talk a little bit too
about rites of passage in the Church.
Sure. That's a big one.
I, I think that's one thing thatI see a lot of and you know, is
if you go through these certain rites of passes, then that kind
of substitutes the real deal, right?
But the huge Catholic thing, youknow, and the mainline thing as
(22:26):
well, yeah. But what are some of those that
you see, you know, both of you discussed in the book and then
that you see in your in your journey there as pastor?
Yeah, well, easy. And it's easy to pick on
Catholics, but it truly carries over to the evangelical church
as well, especially in in I'm I'm Southern Baptist, you know,
and, and in Southern Baptist life, it's recessing more of a
traditional setting. It's one of those things where,
(22:47):
OK, you're six years old now, you know, it's time to get me to
the pastor and ask Jesus into your heart, you know, kind of
thing. And the pastor sits down and
basically says, do you want to go to heaven when you die?
And I mean, I think everyone's like, yes.
And they say, well, basically say these magic words.
Yep, it's like Dorothy and Wizard of Oz click your slippery
together and say there's no place like home.
(23:08):
Very formulaic. They they don't you word it like
that. That's kind of how we've made
it. Or just repeat after me.
You know, the six year old, of course, is going to repeat after
you. And then we declare them save
because they ask Jesus into their heart and they get
baptized the next day. And then I mean it's it's and
again, can children come to faith?
Absolutely. Jesus said, let the children
come to me. But the whole point is he said,
(23:29):
come to me, they're actually coming to Christ, you know, not
some kind of rite of passage. Yeah.
So I, I think it's something that happens sometimes is we, we
see it the same way Catholics rush down and get their baby
christened, as they call it first communion confirmed
through confirmation, all of that.
It's easy for people in my tradition to treat asking Jesus
into your heart the same way. So I'm not saying wait forever.
(23:51):
I'm just saying make sure that it's not just some, oh, it's
time for it's your turn now, youknow, kind of idea.
Let their heart often, let them ask questions, you know, let,
let, let them you know. And so we need to make sure that
we see the sinner's prayer, as it's called, often as a tool
rather than tool magic. Yeah, it's a tool that want
people to Christ. It's not actually anything that
is extra special or saves us. I've had some so I've said this
(24:14):
from the pulpit before and I've had some confused looks.
The sinner's prayer does not save you.
No, because because it's. Jesus, who saves you?
Well, because here's the thing, there's only certain segments of
the faith all across the world that actually use it.
Yeah, right. And it's a.
Very small segment of the faith,right, You know, and so many
people have come to know the Lord over the years and will
tomorrow and the next day, Lord willing, that had never even
(24:37):
heard of the sinner's prayer before, right?
They believed the gospel, right?They repented of their sins.
You know, they'd interested in Christ.
And I do think we're born again.I don't think that, you know,
Baptists in the South have the market corner on how that comes
about. It comes.
Yeah. It's the regeneration, you know,
so. So I think that that's a really
helpful tool. But so for us, the public, you
(24:57):
know, the that this the public declaration is our baptism,
right? That that's more yeah, that
doesn't that doesn't save us. But that is the that's the
public announcement, right? That that's the the moment.
So, so just don't get caught up.You use the sinner's prayer all
day long, but make sure that. It's the wrong.
Passage where it's your turn, let's commute the pastor, let's
have a talk. Or you know, like, like let
their hearts soften, like because what's going to happen
(25:18):
is they're going to be 21 years old, 31 years old and grandpa's
going to swear they're a Christian because they prayed
the sinner's prayer when they never had any fruit in their
life and have no interest in Christ whatsoever after they
were old enough to make their own decisions.
Again, I believe the eternal security.
I believe one saved. I always say, I'm just saying
let's make sure they are. Well, one of the one.
Of the, I think one of the things that's been kind of sad
(25:39):
in our world of my, my kind of my tradition is we've become
more concerned in convincing someone they are saved and
making sure they actually are. And I don't know why that is.
It's kind of a strange thing, you know?
It doesn't hinderance towards evangelism in cultural
Christianity because Raymond andGrandpa swear their 50 year old
son, adult son is a Christian when he's really not.
(26:03):
Yeah. Well, and, and that takes me a
couple of different places and let, let me go here first.
So we have like mentioned, we have three kids, 4-6 and eight.
And I think it's very easy and almost exciting in a way when
your child accepts the Lord, sure, Jesus into their heart.
I mean, you want that, you want them and that makes you feel
like a good parent, right? And you've experienced that a
(26:23):
few Times Now, But they're starting, they're getting to the
point now where they're startingto ask questions.
And it would be real easy to say, see, they asked my, I asked
my 6 year old, He was sitting ona pool float in the middle of
the, in the middle of the livingroom floor.
And I said, what are you doing over there, buddy?
He said, I'm asking Jesus into my heart.
He wasn't really asking Jesus into his heart.
(26:43):
He was he was repeating something that he had heard.
I'm like, all right, well, what what do you mean by that?
And being able to kind of see, all right, it is, is that fruit
there? Can you help us think about that
as parents, you know, thinking about this next generation of
all right, So let's, let's not jump to all right, let's ask,
(27:04):
let's ask Jesus through your heart because it's your turn.
But how can we kind of disciple them in a way that would that
would ensure that they are making that that salvation
decision on their own? What are?
What's the advice you may have with that?
Yeah. And you know, Jesus talks about
childlike faith and faith like amustard seed.
So can 4 year olds come to faith?
Yeah, I believe that. You know, I hope that's true.
(27:25):
I believe it's true. Yeah.
So I would say like also we it'sa theological issue as well
because that prayer does not save.
Like there's a regeneration being done in their hearts to
save them. Yes, right.
I think that even precedes the confession, right?
Like like we're because if we'redead in our sins, it'd be made
alive, you know, and we don't bemade, we're not made alive
(27:46):
because we say some magic words,right?
We're made alive because the Holy Spirit regenerates us.
Yes, work of grace in our hearts.
Believe in God enough to let Himdo the work.
When I say let him, you know what I mean?
Like I'm in air quotes, you know, let him.
He can do it every once. He's gonna do it every once.
But but so and then look for moments like when there's so for
your 4 year old in the pool afterwards.
(28:08):
Hey buddy, what were we talking about there?
Like like talk about that and hemight say the most mumbo jumbo
nothing ever or he's kind of what happened.
He might share a little tiny signs of childlike faith and you
just kind of go, OK, we'll keep talking about that.
And they'll just kind of bring stuff up when you pray at night
before they go to bed and just don't feel, don't rush at all.
Like, like don't rush. And also for baptism, you don't
(28:28):
have to graduate to baptism. Baptism is a starting point.
Yeah. So you don't have to be some
like theologian or that's why I think it's great when a six year
old gets baptized if they actually know the Lord, you
know, in childlike faith. So.
So I, I think just get over yourown pride and pressure and feel
like, Oh my gosh, these three people's kids got baptized.
My son's eight. He hasn't yet.
What are we? No, just let God's going to do
the work. Let them soften to it and then
(28:51):
look for opportunities along theway just to keep pointing
towards to Jesus and their need for Christ.
And to me that's that's, that's symptom of cultural
Christianity, right? That's right.
Catholics. Do we pick on them for that?
You know, where it's all of a sudden you got to, you know, run
down there and get the baby, baby baptized or whatever, You
know, like it's just, it's just that kind of stuff.
(29:11):
Yeah, and so along with that andI'd love to kind of maybe wrap
up with this way. Yeah, with this thought we a lot
of times it. And again, you know, I was, I
was, I was saved when I was 9, Southern Baptist church, good
old Bible belt, right? There was a real work in me that
happened. I was so excited.
Remember the joy of your salvation.
I remember the joy of my salvation to the point where my
(29:32):
pastor called me and he said, I can't baptize you this week
because I'm out of town. Can you wait till next week?
And I told him no. And it wasn't any like outside
pressure on me. I was just so pumped.
You're ready to go? Yeah.
Yeah. And so the youth pastor baptized
me because I couldn't wait on mypastor.
And, you know, that was that wasa glorious thing.
But for a large part of my life,I felt like that was the that
was the end. You know, I was saved, I was
(29:54):
baptized and now I'm good until I get to heaven.
But there's this aspect and it, you know, it's, it's in you
guys, you know about us, you know, it's in the Bible.
It's this whole sanctification process.
You know, we're not done when we're saved and and baptized.
We're starting for it. Switch off.
Yeah. And so I think from what I see,
cultural Christianity has largely that mindset as well
(30:16):
that. Once you, once you do.
This rite of passage of saved and and and baptized, Then hey,
you're just, you know, just try to be good the rest of the time.
Let your good outweigh your bad and cruise on to heaven.
That's so true, but you it really, I know it's cliche, but
early is check the box. Yeah, yeah, baptism is a is a
starting point. We got to see it that way and
teach it is that like it's a kick off into a life of
(30:40):
following Jesus? That's good.
Like like that. That's what it's really about.
Like you're you're choosing to follow Jesus.
You're responding to the good news.
The changes happen in your heart, so I think we have to see
it as that over and over again. A starting point, a starting
point, a starting point. Like that's what it is.
Yeah, God's not done with you then.
No, no, they're. Just getting started and
there's, there's grace, grace enough as we go along this
(31:00):
journey that he's going to beginto make you more and more like
Christ if you let him. And I think that's a big part of
it. So what I want to end with is
this, if there's a listener or if there's several listeners or
a lot of listeners that identifywith this cultural Christianity,
OK, well, I'm a part of the Country Club aspect of this.
I find that that maybe I'm goingthrough the motions.
(31:21):
I'm identifying as a Christian, but I haven't really had that,
that, that, that moment. I haven't really had that moment
of grace in my life. And where would you say the next
step would be for these people? All right.
I always like to offer a solution to the problem.
Yeah. Well, you, you probably know the
the least the first verse, memorize the song Amazing Grace.
Let it be a reality in your life.
(31:42):
Yeah, I actually believe it, youknow, And if your answer to why
you're a Christian is something other than the work of Jesus on
your behalf and you've not experienced grace, Yeah, that's
about you. If your if your answer to why
you're a Christian is well, I'm AI believe in God isn't an
atheist. James in chapter 2 said, OK, you
believe in God. Great.
So does the devil. I mean, you want to cut a
cookie, big deal. You know, like or if your reason
(32:03):
is that you come from a Christian family, it's like your
heritage rather than actually a conviction you have for
yourself. I mean, praise God for godly
heritage that doesn't save you. The faith can be passed down,
but it can't be inherited. Those are two different things,
but you have to have a faith of your own or maybe it's you or or
to you're a good person. And I would say like I stand
with Paul and say, don't nullifythe grace of God.
You know, for if righteousness comes to the law, then Christ
(32:25):
died for nothing. I would say turn to Jesus as the
reason for your faith and make your answer for why you're a
Christian, because I believe that Jesus is who he said he
was, that he died on the cross from my sins and he rose from
the grave. Like that's why I'm a Christian.
Jesus saved me. We're just coming out of the
Easter season, and I can't help but my heart leaps for joy when
I think about this. You ask me how I know he lives.
(32:47):
He lives within my heart. And and that's, you know, I
think that's a good litmus test of, you know, what does it look
like to really and truly follow Jesus?
Yeah, and it is confession and belief first.
Like who is he actually? Yeah.
Dean, brother, this has been so good for hours about this.
But hey, where can my listeners get into your world?
(33:09):
You've read several books and I'd love for them to be
introduced to that. Yeah, I've written several
books. You can find them.
I'm really anywhere where their books are sold, Amazon, you
know, places like that. I am I'm Pastor City church in
Tallahassee. I'm pretty active on social
media on X and on Instagram. It's just my name Dean and
Sarah. And it's the, it sounds like I'm
you're saying the girl's name Sarah, but it's, it's that's my
(33:29):
last name is in Sarah with an I.So yeah, I love, I always love
their acting with people and, and write these things that Lord
lets me write like for the church body as a whole across
the world. So I want to serve people any
way I can, talk about things I hope are helpful for people and
hopefully can keep doing it. You've been very, very, very
formative in my life. So I would encourage you to keep
(33:51):
keep doing the great work, keep letting the Holy Spirit right
through you because you're making a big difference.
And so I appreciate you appreciate what you're doing for
the Kingdom, brother, and may you be blessed and may you be
encouraged by some fruit that has happened because of your
work. So thank.
You it's very kind. I appreciate that.
All right. Thanks, brother.
Appreciate you being here. Good to be with you.
(34:12):
Thank you for listening to the Rev RX Podcast.
We hope you enjoyed what you heard today and if so, we'd love
it if you would hit that subscribe button so that you'll
never miss a new episode from us.
Also, feel free to leave us reviews and comments as we'd
love to hear from you. Be blessed and be the very best
you.
Hello and welcome back to the Rev RX Podcast where we show you
how to thrive in faith, family, and help.
My name is Chad Potts and I'm your host.
Today I'm joined by Pastor Dean and Sarah.
Dean is the lead pastor at City Church in Tallahassee.
He's the author of The Unsaved Christian, which is first.
What drew me to him. And what you're going to
(00:32):
discover today is that Dean has a powerful message about one of
the greatest challenges facing the church in America today,
cultural Christianity. What do you do when people claim
the name of Christ but have never really experienced God's
grace? We're going to dig into that
question today, and Dean shares a clear gospel centered message,
(00:53):
gospel centered perspective of how to move beyond checking
boxes to truly knowing Jesus andtruly knowing his love for you.
You're not going to want to missthis conversation.
So without further ado, I introduced to you my friend Dean
and Sarah Dean. Brother, thank you so much for
(01:15):
joining us today on the podcast.Been a fan of your work for a
while, so this is really and truly a privilege for me to sit
down with you and just unpack some of your work.
So thanks for being here. Thanks invitation.
I really appreciate that. It's good to be with you.
Yes, Sir, I'd love for you just to introduce yourself a little
bit to my listeners. For those that don't already
know you, can you tell us a little bit, as much as little as
you want. I'm about how you landed where
(01:35):
you are today. They're in Tallahassee doing
great work for the Lord. Well, I'm pastor in Tallahassee,
FL at City Church, a church we started in the summer of 2007
with about 20 people and it's seen Lord just doing amazing
work. Since then, we just had our
Easter service in a Florida State's basketball arena.
Like in the it's the things Lordhave done.
I've been, it's been incredible and I'm just really grateful
I've had I baptized my Little League baseball coach a few
(01:58):
years ago. Yeah, just been, I'm from
Tallahassee. It's just been neat.
I'm just really grateful for all.
I'm just reminded regularly of the scripture where what do you
have that you didn't receive that it all was great.
So I'm just thankful for that. It's a real heart for for
cultural Christianity. And by that I mean people who
think they're Christians and they're not.
I'm not the judge of who's a Christian or do I want to be?
(02:18):
But the scriptures are clear that there are people who will
say Lord, Lord, didn't I do all these things and and he'll tell
them I never knew you because their answer is their own
religiousness rather than the righteousness of Christ on their
breath. So that's to get ahead.
But that's that's really a heartbeat of mind.
That's where I grew up in. I came to Lord.
What does that and then also I'mI'm been married for 21 years,
(02:39):
have 4 kids. We have an interesting age
range. We had a little surprise in our
house. So I have a graduating senior in
high school, a 14 year old, a 10year old, and then we have a 2
year old. Wow, so quite, quite the age
your age here. I've been my mid 40s and I'm a 2
year old. But but it's been it's been
great. It's been massive adjustment,
but it's been really great. That's so that's that's our life
(03:01):
in Tallahassee and just love thelocal church.
Big fan of it. I really think that we that
Christians need to unapologetically believe the
local church is God's designing and love their church and be a
part of their church. And so that's part of our
ministry here is, is making local church a big deal because
it makes Jesus a big deal. I love every bit of that.
Yeah, you got to love the littlesurprise at the end.
Oh man, let me tell you what. I'm in my early 40s and we our
(03:26):
kids are younger. We waited a little longer to
have kids, but mine are basically 4-6 and eight.
And yeah. And so we're kind of right there
in the middle of where of where you are.
And so I know that was, you know, both equally fun,
exciting, all of those good things, but also like, man,
we're starting over. 18 all the way to two.
Yeah, yeah. Love it you.
(03:47):
Got built in babysitters, right?That's.
Right. Then we do it for sure.
I love it. Well, man, your book, The
Unsaved Christian has been formative for me.
And one of the reasons I was first drawn to it is because I'm
like you. I'm in a Bible Belt just a few
hours north of you. And, you know, cultural
Christianity, the way that you describe it, and I'll let you
define that in just a minute, but it is it's, it's normal.
(04:08):
It's mainstream here. And you know, there is a real
sense that Jesus can transform lives.
But yet we look around and we see a lot of people who profess
to be Christians and their livesmaybe don't tell that out.
And again, that's not from judgement shame, and that's not
for us to figure out. But there really is a calling to
your book that calls people to adeeper relationship.
(04:30):
And that's what I'm after, and that's my story.
Yeah, and I think it's almost more of a belief thing and a
conviction thing, even before it's a lifestyle thing.
Yeah. So I was in my.
Seminary parking lot. I get ready to head back to
Tallahassee. My home is the crow flies is
about 10 or 12 miles from the Georgia border.
So very bad. There's so bio belt elements
here. I mean, Florida states here,
(04:51):
state capitals, they're really alittle bit of everybody.
But for the local Tallahassee and like myself, there's like a
more of a generational Bible Belt kind of culture.
And so I thought a little missional guilt is what I call
it about that. Like you're always told like you
need to go to the big city up north, throughout West.
And I really know there are a lot of people who go and do that
because there's great needs out there.
But my seminary neighbor was going to be a part of a church
(05:12):
planting team in Northern California.
So he's going to Northern California and I'm going 10
miles from the Georgia border. So I have a little missional
guilt, like he's the one really getting out there and I'm the
one kind of taking the easy way.And so I did try to like, I
think, I think I was trying to make myself feel better by
building him up. Like, I admire you.
It's so great. And he cut me off and said, oh,
(05:32):
stop that. And I said what?
He said where I'm going, it's easier than where you're going.
I said, what the heck are you talking about?
He said, wrong going. There's no confusion over who's
a Christian, who's not like people know.
They're like, they're not Christians where you're going.
Everybody thinks they're fine. It's almost like you got to get
someone lost in order to get them saved.
And I just needed to hear that. And I knew that, but I needed to
(05:56):
hear that. And the reality is when you look
at the Scriptures, it's often those who claim to be religious
are the ones that Jesus is reaching, that seem to be the
people that are the most clueless about it.
When it's the person that is bottomed out and knows they are,
that is more willing to accept the gospels.
And let's say the person who's down and out and knows they're
broken is much easier to reach than the person who thinks
they're fine. That sounds obvious, but that's
(06:16):
so much a ministry in this part of the country is people who
think they're Christians and they're not.
And what I mean by that is let'ssay you walked into a
Chick-fil-A and saw somebody. We're going Christian fast food
hearing. And and he saw someone and he
just said, hey, are you a Christian?
That would kind of be a weird greeting.
But if you're in a conversation asking if they're a Christian
and they said yes, and most likely they would say yes.
(06:38):
And if you ask them, you know, I'm just curious, what makes you
a Christian? Here's what they would likely
say. They would say, well, you know,
I believe in God. I'm a good person.
I go to church when I can, you know, all the time.
But, you know, I go to church when I can.
You know, I'm pretty spiritual person.
Yeah, Yeah, I'm a Christian. Notice what did not come out of
their mouth? The name of Jesus Christ.
(06:58):
Can you really have a saving faith if Jesus isn't a part of
what defines you as a Christian?Yeah.
And so that really is a modern day workspace righteousness.
It's like a generic theism wherethey believe because they're not
atheists. Yeah.
That they're a Christian, right?Yeah.
So it's real. It's a really hard person to
reach as opposed to a person whoknows they're not a believer
like that, that knows like Stickor a key theist or a Muslim or a
(07:21):
Buddhist. Like it's clearly what they are.
As opposed to the South where simply not being something
people think they are something.Well, and and I see that a lot
and I've shared it with the young adults up pastor about
different surveys that have beendone.
And you know, it it they're always alarming because they're
like a lot of everybody that considers themselves a Christian
(07:43):
and they check the box that saidthey're Christian in the survey,
you know, XYZ, whatever conclusion you want to draw.
You know, so many of them don't believe in the Trinity and
different things like that. And you know, we've had
discussions because I like that be kind of open-ended in some of
this. I'm like, well, what, why do you
think that is? But are we not doing a good job
in the church or what does that look like?
And I think a large part of it, part of it is exactly what you
(08:03):
said. We checked that box called
Christian, and we check that because we're not atheist, you
know, we check it because we're not Hindu, we're not Buddhist.
And so, you know, the only logical conclusion there is is
Christian, you know, Christianity.
And we go to church sometimes. We were raised that way, you
know, And it's almost like in this part of the country, and
(08:24):
I'm speaking largely, you know, Bible Belt here in this part of
the country, it's almost like ifyou're not, if you don't
consider yourself Christian, that's almost something to be
ashamed of, right? Yeah, and people will know and
they'll notice. Again, that's changing some.
But here's the reality. Let's say you had a form to fill
out and you're sitting in the doctor's office and they ask you
you're religion. Yeah, right.
What, You're going down the formand it's like, well, I'm not
(08:46):
nothing. I'm not no religion.
So you move on. And you know for a fact I'm not
Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu.
What am I? And then you check Christian.
So really, there's been no category for cultural
Christianity. So for far too long we have seen
cultural Christianity as a discipleship issue.
Yeah. And that's how we get
frustrated. Why did, why can't he just get
(09:06):
it? You know, what's his deal?
Why is he just getting more serious about his faith when I
think we've gone about the wrongway?
Cultural Christianity is not a discipleship issue.
It's an evangelism issue. These people actually don't know
Jesus. Rather than being frustrated
towards them, we should see themas people who are sheep without
a shepherd and see them and see them as someone who's no just as
lost as the Buddhist or the atheist or the agnostic.
(09:28):
They just used some Christian lingo and had maybe some
Christian we would call values. But those things don't save,
right? Those things don't remedy the
fact that we are guilty before God of our sin and need to be
forgiven. So I think we need to make sure
we are clear on the category. Cultural Christianity is not a
discipleship issue. It's an evangelism issue and see
it as a mission field for us. And I think cultural
Christianity is really great forAmerica.
(09:49):
I mean Christian values. And I think it's great for our
country. It's really bad for the Kingdom
of God because it can be misleading and and it really is
misleading and make people thinkthey're saved when they're
actually not. And that's a really good
thought. I haven't thought about that
before. It's good for the country.
Oh yeah. Because it it put, you know, and
you see this in some of this Christian nationalism.
And maybe that's a different topic, but you know, the pushing
(10:11):
of Christian values, Hey, I mean, that's a good thing for
the country. You know, what's alternative,
Right. Yeah, exactly.
Or do you want Sharia law? I mean, it's so easy to go.
Christian nationalism. Christian nationalism.
I would love for America to be more Christian.
Yeah, absolutely. So.
But it's not good for the Kingdom because it's it's
misleading. It blinds you.
(10:32):
And so along those lines of it'san evangelistic issue, and I
really like the way that you phrase that.
It becomes kind of a mission of sorts for us to be able to help
people unpack that. And in order is so one of the
things you say, and you mentioned this earlier in the
interview, you almost have to help them get lost before you
let them get saved, before you can help them be found.
(10:54):
I'd love for you to unpack that for us a little bit.
What does that look like and what are some ways that you have
found that are helpful to reallyget the attention of of these
folks? Because you're right.
Like, you know, you feel like you're good and you don't really
like somebody coming along telling you you're not.
But you also you know that falseassumption is not helping
anybody either. Yeah, well, you can be clear
about sin and not tell someone for an hour how wretched they
(11:16):
are. That's just not a great starting
point because they don't think that like they really think
they're fine. Like they think they're good
people. So.
So we really get to get them lost in order to get them saved.
Obviously God does the work. The Holy Spirit is the one that
opens up their eyes. But but God uses people, right?
Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God.
So I think it has to be a central component of your
preaching and not just in the South anywhere, because
(11:37):
workspace righteousness is that default mode.
So everybody thinks they're a good person and what's the most
probably held view in all of religion in America?
It's probably just the idea thatgood people go to heaven.
Yes, everybody thinks that, right?
Yes. So even like the atheist is like
we know he's in a better place. You don't know what we mean by
that, but just kind of where they.
(11:58):
So I think it's one of those things where we have to make
sure we're clear on who God really is because generic feed
them is going to make us be people who don't see our need
before God. Because God just wanted a big
guy upstairs or a glorified Santa or a Yoda figure from Star
Wars. The fact that I'd sinned against
him is really not that big of a deal.
He understands. He's OK with it kind of those
(12:20):
ideas. So here's what I do is people
all believe they're good people,right?
So everybody, people think that good people go to heaven and
everybody thinks they're good. Pretty weird place.
So there's nobody in hell. Yeah, and except for really bad
people. And you're like people who hurt
children, dictators, I mean, that kind of.
Yeah. So what I say is I'll be in the
conversation. I just in the pulpit a lot.
(12:41):
And I'll say, you know what? You you think you're a good
person. And that's what's blinding you
from seeing your need for Jesus.But you know what?
I believe you. I believe you that you're a good
person. I even know a lot of you.
I think you're great people. And then I pause and I say, I
think you're great people by thestandards of this world.
But God does not judge us by howwe measure up the suburban
(13:01):
morality in Tallahassee in 2025.And that standard is himself.
So when he just one sin I've committed against him is he will
not as a holy God let sin go unpunished.
So I'm going to stand before Godand be held accountable for my
sins or Jesus who never sinned is going to stand in my place
(13:21):
for me. Like choose wisely.
And then again, most of these people would admire Jesus or
claim to believe in Jesus. They might even have a nativity
scene on their mantle at Christmas time.
So I quote Galatians 221, which is such an important verse.
It says I will not nullify the grace of God, for if
righteousness can be attained bykeeping the law, which is
(13:43):
basically good, people go to heaven, right then Jesus died
for nothing. Doesn't it sound blasphemous
even to say that? It does and.
I'll say when you think that you're fine and being a good
person gets you to heaven, you're holding up a huge flashy
neon sign that screams Jesus died for nothing.
Our good Fridays is a tragedy. Christmas has no point to
(14:05):
celebrate. Who cares?
The Son of Man came to seek and save the lost and who cares if
you're fine on your own because he died for no reason.
And Easter just makes no sense. So really these cultural
Christian holidays they celebrate are completely
contradictory to the reality that good people go to heaven.
So you just have to really take that apart and show.
But again, it all goes back to our view of God.
Most important thing about you, I think is Tozer, who said it is
(14:27):
what comes to your mind when youthink about God.
So when God is very generic, very vague, that kind of generic
theism. I'm not an atheist, therefore
I'm a Christian, then sin's not a big deal.
But when you but we don't get topick and choose who God is.
He's revealed himself to us. He has shown us who he is and I
think it's an act of love. It's for his glory and also out
of his love that he's shown us who he is.
And then we see who he is. We realize we're accountable for
(14:49):
how we've sinned against him andthat's why we need Jesus.
He did die for a purpose. He died for us, right?
Depending on the penalty of our sins, right?
So he's our substitute. He died in our place.
But the cultural Christian, there's no category for that
that they they believe probably Jesus died on the cross that
just the personal aspect of there's actually 4 my sins.
They see it more generically. He kind of died for it was just
(15:10):
sort of symbol or a second random sacrifice.
Yeah. So we have to make sure that in
the pulpit, especially in a Bible study somewhere else, that
we're, I'll put it this way, that we're picking apart
workspace righteousness every time.
That's so good. Because that's the default mode.
Every sermon, at some point I doit.
No matter what I'm talking aboutsomewhere, I do it.
Yeah, and you're right. You know, we've we've become
(15:32):
fans of Jesus, I think. Was it Kyle Adelman?
Yeah. Yeah, you know, fan or follower,
we've become big, we're big fans.
We admire Jesus. We, we, we think that he's a
good teacher. We think that, that you, like
you said, he's a Yoda figure, you know it.
But really that's, that's not, that's not Jesus.
That's not the Jesus that we know.
And and being able to show people that the personal part
(15:56):
and that's what I missed for most of my adult life.
People who, who are listening tothis, my listeners, you know, a
lot of a lot of times we know the story of all right, I
realized that going to church was a big part of Christianity.
And for me, that's, that was theextent of it for large, large
part of my life. If I wanted to follow Jesus
closer, I went to church more and I understood 0 about the
(16:18):
personal part. I just knew, OK, these things
are expected of me. And if I check these boxes and
if I do these things, then I must be good enough because
after all, no one's perfect. So I think the good outweighs
the bad and therefore I'm good. And I think a lot of people get
in that in that boat, don't they?
A lot of people get in that rut of thinking, you know, well, as
long as my good outweighs my bad, I'm probably going to
heaven. And you know, God doesn't really
(16:39):
care about sin too much because Jesus died and he's just a good
guy. He's gonna let everybody in and
you know, the end of the story. But.
You're thinking your good deeds cancel out your bad deeds.
It's like thinking your Diet Coke cancels out your large fry,
right? You know, it's just, it's just,
yeah, it's your unsweet tea cancels out your double
cheeseburger. You know, it's the calories
don't count. You know, like that.
No matter how many good deeds wedo, it doesn't remedy the fact
(17:01):
that we have sent, you know, andGod will hold us accountable for
that. So the things of the routine
like of going to church, the disciplines, those are very good
things. We should make sure that we
think those things don't actually make us right with God.
Those are. Those are a response to the fact
that we are right with God and we want to have a relationship
with him. And so so I think we need to
champion the routines. But we over and over again
(17:22):
remind people these are not whatmakes us Christian.
What makes us a Christian is Jesus, you know, what he's done
for us. And so I think that we get it
backwards sometimes, like you talked about, you know, I think
about the the Pharisee and the text collector in Luke 18 with a
Pharisee said, God, I thank you'll not like this guy over
here. And then he gives his resume.
He says they're all adulterers, They're greedy.
(17:44):
I fast twice a week. I give a portion of everything I
get. He's not lying.
He actually did do those things.He really did fast.
He really wasn't an adulterer. He really wasn't greedy.
You know, he really was generouswith his money and all those
things are good things. The issue is so by our
standards, he would be a good person.
(18:04):
But. He thought those things made him
righteous with a tax cut. You're standing there is a
Sinner just as much a Sinner as the Pharisee is, but it looked
different and he has nothing to appeal to because he's aware of
his sin before God and he his only thing he can say is God
have mercy on me, right? And Jesus said the good news is
God answered his prayer and Jesus had mercy on him.
And he says that guy, the tennisfactor went away justified, like
(18:27):
made right with God, not the other guy.
So the guy who had all the rightthings that did all the right
things was not right with God. He's still under the bed in that
wild, but he's not lying. All the things he said he did
are true. Like the Pharisee.
He was that devout. He was those things, but he
thought those things would make him righteous and they do not.
Well, and I'm reminded of the words of Paul who who gave his
(18:47):
his pedigree. Yes, he gave his resolve great
call and then said it's all for nothing.
Yeah, it compared I considering Christ.
And so you're, you're exactly right.
We get it opposite. We think that by doing the good
things it puts us in right standing with God, when in
reality what we find is that by by getting right with God first,
by experiencing the salvation that only Christ offers us, then
(19:11):
out of an overflow of that, that's where our good deeds come
in. Because if not, then the reality
is Galatians 221 then Christ died for nothing.
Yep, love it. Love it.
In your book, you you describe acouple of other types of unsaved
Christians. There's the wolves and sheep's
clothing, clothing the hypocrites.
Can you unpack that a little bitfor us?
Because I think that's good to see in contrast.
Yeah, there's just, there's so many categories of it, right?
(19:33):
Like it's easy to go, oh, Bible Belt, but you think about like
what is progressive ChristianityToday?
You're those plan to be Christians, but like deny the
exclusivity of Christ or deny A bodily resurrection or a virgin
birth. Like, I'm sorry, like you're not
a Christian if you don't believethose things, right?
So that would be someone who claims to be a Christian, but
they're not. You know, they're an unsaved
Christian. And the whole title unsaved
(19:55):
Christian means that people would claim to be Christians,
but their reason for believing so has nothing to do with the
Bible would say is actually saving faith.
They identify as Christians, butthey're but they're unsaved.
So I talk about that person. I talk about the person that's
just kind of God and country, right?
Their faith isn't about Jesus. It's more just kind of God Bless
America. Get goosebumps during the Lee
Greenwood the song. They're just really cry.
(20:16):
We love the troops, you know, fist pump kind of thing.
And they just kind of equated the idea of faith into their
kind of American understanding of it.
And then I'm all for patriotism.I'm very patriotic and but
that's not Christianity, right Like that.
That's just that's called just being grateful for your country.
The Christian response, I think to love your country and be
thankful for it. That's not Christian unity, you
(20:36):
know, So like, what would you doif you moved to Poland tomorrow?
So like it's not confined to just a certain culture and way
of life, the body of Christ and that so, so that that would be
another one. There are sports culture.
You see a lot of it where like every team like prays before the
game and you point to the sky when you score a touchdown.
And I think all that's fine. But like those people know
Jesus. I mean, some might, some not,
(20:57):
some might, some might, but it'sso all these things you got to
be careful of where rather than us being an expression of our
faith, it's more kind of a tradition or a good luck charm
or a rally cry or a mascot for America or for gods, none of
those things. So those are some areas where
the hypocrite is, would be one that just, you know, knows the
(21:19):
right things to say, you know, kind of has that maybe comes
from a Christian family originally and knows the right
answers. But their hearts out of the
Lord, they don't care, you know,they're serving themselves.
But there's some examples that come to mind of some of some
categories. If you have any more you want to
ask me about that. Yeah, that's fine.
No, that's helpful, you know, and it shows us just how
intertwined all of this is. Yeah, generational Catholics.
Cultural Catholics would be 1. You know, where they don't even
(21:43):
believe anything but still claimthey're Catholic.
And I do think there's some Catholics that get it, you know,
But the kind of person like my grandfather, he claims like his
sons are Catholic. That's why that's in the book.
And one of his sons is an atheist, but my grandpa claims
he's Catholic. And so for some cultural
Catholics, being a Catholic is more important than actually
(22:04):
believing, you know, sort of. So that'd be another example.
That's good. I want to talk a little bit too
about rites of passage in the Church.
Sure. That's a big one.
I, I think that's one thing thatI see a lot of and you know, is
if you go through these certain rites of passes, then that kind
of substitutes the real deal, right?
But the huge Catholic thing, youknow, and the mainline thing as
(22:26):
well, yeah. But what are some of those that
you see, you know, both of you discussed in the book and then
that you see in your in your journey there as pastor?
Yeah, well, easy. And it's easy to pick on
Catholics, but it truly carries over to the evangelical church
as well, especially in in I'm I'm Southern Baptist, you know,
and, and in Southern Baptist life, it's recessing more of a
traditional setting. It's one of those things where,
(22:47):
OK, you're six years old now, you know, it's time to get me to
the pastor and ask Jesus into your heart, you know, kind of
thing. And the pastor sits down and
basically says, do you want to go to heaven when you die?
And I mean, I think everyone's like, yes.
And they say, well, basically say these magic words.
Yep, it's like Dorothy and Wizard of Oz click your slippery
together and say there's no place like home.
(23:08):
Very formulaic. They they don't you word it like
that. That's kind of how we've made
it. Or just repeat after me.
You know, the six year old, of course, is going to repeat after
you. And then we declare them save
because they ask Jesus into their heart and they get
baptized the next day. And then I mean it's it's and
again, can children come to faith?
Absolutely. Jesus said, let the children
come to me. But the whole point is he said,
(23:29):
come to me, they're actually coming to Christ, you know, not
some kind of rite of passage. Yeah.
So I, I think it's something that happens sometimes is we, we
see it the same way Catholics rush down and get their baby
christened, as they call it first communion confirmed
through confirmation, all of that.
It's easy for people in my tradition to treat asking Jesus
into your heart the same way. So I'm not saying wait forever.
(23:51):
I'm just saying make sure that it's not just some, oh, it's
time for it's your turn now, youknow, kind of idea.
Let their heart often, let them ask questions, you know, let,
let, let them you know. And so we need to make sure that
we see the sinner's prayer, as it's called, often as a tool
rather than tool magic. Yeah, it's a tool that want
people to Christ. It's not actually anything that
is extra special or saves us. I've had some so I've said this
(24:14):
from the pulpit before and I've had some confused looks.
The sinner's prayer does not save you.
No, because because it's. Jesus, who saves you?
Well, because here's the thing, there's only certain segments of
the faith all across the world that actually use it.
Yeah, right. And it's a.
Very small segment of the faith,right, You know, and so many
people have come to know the Lord over the years and will
tomorrow and the next day, Lord willing, that had never even
(24:37):
heard of the sinner's prayer before, right?
They believed the gospel, right?They repented of their sins.
You know, they'd interested in Christ.
And I do think we're born again.I don't think that, you know,
Baptists in the South have the market corner on how that comes
about. It comes.
Yeah. It's the regeneration, you know,
so. So I think that that's a really
helpful tool. But so for us, the public, you
(24:57):
know, the that this the public declaration is our baptism,
right? That that's more yeah, that
doesn't that doesn't save us. But that is the that's the
public announcement, right? That that's the the moment.
So, so just don't get caught up.You use the sinner's prayer all
day long, but make sure that. It's the wrong.
Passage where it's your turn, let's commute the pastor, let's
have a talk. Or you know, like, like let
their hearts soften, like because what's going to happen
(25:18):
is they're going to be 21 years old, 31 years old and grandpa's
going to swear they're a Christian because they prayed
the sinner's prayer when they never had any fruit in their
life and have no interest in Christ whatsoever after they
were old enough to make their own decisions.
Again, I believe the eternal security.
I believe one saved. I always say, I'm just saying
let's make sure they are. Well, one of the one.
Of the, I think one of the things that's been kind of sad
(25:39):
in our world of my, my kind of my tradition is we've become
more concerned in convincing someone they are saved and
making sure they actually are. And I don't know why that is.
It's kind of a strange thing, you know?
It doesn't hinderance towards evangelism in cultural
Christianity because Raymond andGrandpa swear their 50 year old
son, adult son is a Christian when he's really not.
(26:03):
Yeah. Well, and, and that takes me a
couple of different places and let, let me go here first.
So we have like mentioned, we have three kids, 4-6 and eight.
And I think it's very easy and almost exciting in a way when
your child accepts the Lord, sure, Jesus into their heart.
I mean, you want that, you want them and that makes you feel
like a good parent, right? And you've experienced that a
(26:23):
few Times Now, But they're starting, they're getting to the
point now where they're startingto ask questions.
And it would be real easy to say, see, they asked my, I asked
my 6 year old, He was sitting ona pool float in the middle of
the, in the middle of the livingroom floor.
And I said, what are you doing over there, buddy?
He said, I'm asking Jesus into my heart.
He wasn't really asking Jesus into his heart.
(26:43):
He was he was repeating something that he had heard.
I'm like, all right, well, what what do you mean by that?
And being able to kind of see, all right, it is, is that fruit
there? Can you help us think about that
as parents, you know, thinking about this next generation of
all right, So let's, let's not jump to all right, let's ask,
(27:04):
let's ask Jesus through your heart because it's your turn.
But how can we kind of disciple them in a way that would that
would ensure that they are making that that salvation
decision on their own? What are?
What's the advice you may have with that?
Yeah. And you know, Jesus talks about
childlike faith and faith like amustard seed.
So can 4 year olds come to faith?
Yeah, I believe that. You know, I hope that's true.
(27:25):
I believe it's true. Yeah.
So I would say like also we it'sa theological issue as well
because that prayer does not save.
Like there's a regeneration being done in their hearts to
save them. Yes, right.
I think that even precedes the confession, right?
Like like we're because if we'redead in our sins, it'd be made
alive, you know, and we don't bemade, we're not made alive
(27:46):
because we say some magic words,right?
We're made alive because the Holy Spirit regenerates us.
Yes, work of grace in our hearts.
Believe in God enough to let Himdo the work.
When I say let him, you know what I mean?
Like I'm in air quotes, you know, let him.
He can do it every once. He's gonna do it every once.
But but so and then look for moments like when there's so for
your 4 year old in the pool afterwards.
(28:08):
Hey buddy, what were we talking about there?
Like like talk about that and hemight say the most mumbo jumbo
nothing ever or he's kind of what happened.
He might share a little tiny signs of childlike faith and you
just kind of go, OK, we'll keep talking about that.
And they'll just kind of bring stuff up when you pray at night
before they go to bed and just don't feel, don't rush at all.
Like, like don't rush. And also for baptism, you don't
(28:28):
have to graduate to baptism. Baptism is a starting point.
Yeah. So you don't have to be some
like theologian or that's why I think it's great when a six year
old gets baptized if they actually know the Lord, you
know, in childlike faith. So.
So I, I think just get over yourown pride and pressure and feel
like, Oh my gosh, these three people's kids got baptized.
My son's eight. He hasn't yet.
What are we? No, just let God's going to do
the work. Let them soften to it and then
(28:51):
look for opportunities along theway just to keep pointing
towards to Jesus and their need for Christ.
And to me that's that's, that's symptom of cultural
Christianity, right? That's right.
Catholics. Do we pick on them for that?
You know, where it's all of a sudden you got to, you know, run
down there and get the baby, baby baptized or whatever, You
know, like it's just, it's just that kind of stuff.
(29:11):
Yeah, and so along with that andI'd love to kind of maybe wrap
up with this way. Yeah, with this thought we a lot
of times it. And again, you know, I was, I
was, I was saved when I was 9, Southern Baptist church, good
old Bible belt, right? There was a real work in me that
happened. I was so excited.
Remember the joy of your salvation.
I remember the joy of my salvation to the point where my
(29:32):
pastor called me and he said, I can't baptize you this week
because I'm out of town. Can you wait till next week?
And I told him no. And it wasn't any like outside
pressure on me. I was just so pumped.
You're ready to go? Yeah.
Yeah. And so the youth pastor baptized
me because I couldn't wait on mypastor.
And, you know, that was that wasa glorious thing.
But for a large part of my life,I felt like that was the that
was the end. You know, I was saved, I was
(29:54):
baptized and now I'm good until I get to heaven.
But there's this aspect and it, you know, it's, it's in you
guys, you know about us, you know, it's in the Bible.
It's this whole sanctification process.
You know, we're not done when we're saved and and baptized.
We're starting for it. Switch off.
Yeah. And so I think from what I see,
cultural Christianity has largely that mindset as well
(30:16):
that. Once you, once you do.
This rite of passage of saved and and and baptized, Then hey,
you're just, you know, just try to be good the rest of the time.
Let your good outweigh your bad and cruise on to heaven.
That's so true, but you it really, I know it's cliche, but
early is check the box. Yeah, yeah, baptism is a is a
starting point. We got to see it that way and
teach it is that like it's a kick off into a life of
(30:40):
following Jesus? That's good.
Like like that. That's what it's really about.
Like you're you're choosing to follow Jesus.
You're responding to the good news.
The changes happen in your heart, so I think we have to see
it as that over and over again. A starting point, a starting
point, a starting point. Like that's what it is.
Yeah, God's not done with you then.
No, no, they're. Just getting started and
there's, there's grace, grace enough as we go along this
(31:00):
journey that he's going to beginto make you more and more like
Christ if you let him. And I think that's a big part of
it. So what I want to end with is
this, if there's a listener or if there's several listeners or
a lot of listeners that identifywith this cultural Christianity,
OK, well, I'm a part of the Country Club aspect of this.
I find that that maybe I'm goingthrough the motions.
(31:21):
I'm identifying as a Christian, but I haven't really had that,
that, that, that moment. I haven't really had that moment
of grace in my life. And where would you say the next
step would be for these people? All right.
I always like to offer a solution to the problem.
Yeah. Well, you, you probably know the
the least the first verse, memorize the song Amazing Grace.
Let it be a reality in your life.
(31:42):
Yeah, I actually believe it, youknow, And if your answer to why
you're a Christian is something other than the work of Jesus on
your behalf and you've not experienced grace, Yeah, that's
about you. If your if your answer to why
you're a Christian is well, I'm AI believe in God isn't an
atheist. James in chapter 2 said, OK, you
believe in God. Great.
So does the devil. I mean, you want to cut a
cookie, big deal. You know, like or if your reason
(32:03):
is that you come from a Christian family, it's like your
heritage rather than actually a conviction you have for
yourself. I mean, praise God for godly
heritage that doesn't save you. The faith can be passed down,
but it can't be inherited. Those are two different things,
but you have to have a faith of your own or maybe it's you or or
to you're a good person. And I would say like I stand
with Paul and say, don't nullifythe grace of God.
You know, for if righteousness comes to the law, then Christ
(32:25):
died for nothing. I would say turn to Jesus as the
reason for your faith and make your answer for why you're a
Christian, because I believe that Jesus is who he said he
was, that he died on the cross from my sins and he rose from
the grave. Like that's why I'm a Christian.
Jesus saved me. We're just coming out of the
Easter season, and I can't help but my heart leaps for joy when
I think about this. You ask me how I know he lives.
(32:47):
He lives within my heart. And and that's, you know, I
think that's a good litmus test of, you know, what does it look
like to really and truly follow Jesus?
Yeah, and it is confession and belief first.
Like who is he actually? Yeah.
Dean, brother, this has been so good for hours about this.
But hey, where can my listeners get into your world?
(33:09):
You've read several books and I'd love for them to be
introduced to that. Yeah, I've written several
books. You can find them.
I'm really anywhere where their books are sold, Amazon, you
know, places like that. I am I'm Pastor City church in
Tallahassee. I'm pretty active on social
media on X and on Instagram. It's just my name Dean and
Sarah. And it's the, it sounds like I'm
you're saying the girl's name Sarah, but it's, it's that's my
(33:29):
last name is in Sarah with an I.So yeah, I love, I always love
their acting with people and, and write these things that Lord
lets me write like for the church body as a whole across
the world. So I want to serve people any
way I can, talk about things I hope are helpful for people and
hopefully can keep doing it. You've been very, very, very
formative in my life. So I would encourage you to keep
(33:51):
keep doing the great work, keep letting the Holy Spirit right
through you because you're making a big difference.
And so I appreciate you appreciate what you're doing for
the Kingdom, brother, and may you be blessed and may you be
encouraged by some fruit that has happened because of your
work. So thank.
You it's very kind. I appreciate that.
All right. Thanks, brother.
Appreciate you being here. Good to be with you.
(34:12):
Thank you for listening to the Rev RX Podcast.
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It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.