September 24, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode of the Rev Rx Podcast, I sit down with John Eldredge—counselor, best-selling author of Wild at Heart (over 15 million copies sold), and founder of Wild at Heart Ministries.
John has shaped the way millions of men understand their hearts, their faith, and their walk with God. In his newest book, Experiencing Jesus Really: Finding Refuge, Strength, and Wonder Through Everyday Encounters with God, he tackles the restlessness and distraction of our modern age with a call back to union with Christ.
We cover:
Why we’ve been conditioned by our cultural moment against intimacy with God.
The difference between relief (temporary) and restoration (lasting).
How everyday moments—like an Uber ride or walking into your home after work—can become places of divine encounter.
The subtle ways the internet has discipled us into unbelief and distraction.
Psalm 91, Psalm 23, and John 15—what they really mean for daily life.
The practice of the One Minute Pause and why “benevolent detachment” may save your soul.
The battle between two kingdoms, and why “neutral ground” doesn’t exist.
This isn’t just another conversation about spiritual disciplines. It’s a roadmap to real union with Christ—and the restoration your soul was created for.
👉 Listen until the end for a heartfelt prayer John prays over you, inviting you into deeper union with God.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Rev RX
Podcast where we show you how tothrive in faith, family, and
health. My name is Chad Potts and I'm
your host. And today is episode 81, and
this is an episode that I had been waiting on.
This one is with a special faithhero of mine by the name of John
(00:32):
Eldridge. I'm sure many of you are
familiar with him and his works.One of his earliest books, Wild
at Heart, is an international bestseller, has brought so many
people to a fuller understandingof the Kingdom of God and the
heart that he's put inside of men.
I first studied that book when Iwas in college with a friend of
mine and a leader at church. And let me tell you, my heart
(00:54):
was changed because of those words.
I have a whole shelf on my bookshelf devoted to his works
because he just has a way with words in helping us to
understand how to go deeper withGod.
He's sold over 15,000,000 books worldwide.
He's one of the most important voices of this generation.
So I don't want to give away anything.
I want you to listen in to the entire episode.
(01:15):
We're going to be sitting down with a legend, and we're going
to be listening as he tells us what it looks like to follow
Jesus the way that we're called to do it.
What a great honor it is to introduce you to my new friend,
John Eldridge. John Eldridge, the man who needs
no introduction. But man, what a privilege it is
(01:36):
to have you here on the Rev RX Podcast.
Welcome to the show. Thank you, Chad.
It's great to be here with you. Looking forward to the
conversation. Absolutely.
We've shared some comments beforehand and talked about how
you've emphasized the man's heart and really Wild at Heart
was probably one of the first Christian books I read and that
just really set my heart on firefor the Lord.
(01:57):
And I have followed your works for years, as I'm sure many of
my listeners have. And so I just want to say thank
you for your voice. Thank you for letting the the
Holy Spirit speak through you all these years.
You know you, you sold over, from what I can tell, 15,000,000
copies. And you're the founder president
of Wild at Heart Ministries. You have a master's degree in
counseling. We know about the John Eldridge
(02:20):
that we have come to know and love, but I just want to give
you an opportunity to say, who are you really?
Well, you do know me if you've read anything.
I don't hide much. You don't hold back I.
Think that honesty and vulnerability is important,
particularly in men and and in male friendships and
relationships. Guys need to learn how to do
that. But grandpa now got 8
(02:41):
grandchildren. Loving that Stacy and I will
celebrate 43 years this coming October.
I love, love the outdoors. I'm, I'm about to go archery
hunting for elk in just a few days and really looking forward
to that. But you know what, Chad?
(03:02):
Here's the thing that if you want to know me, I love God very
deeply and I love, I love my relationship with him.
The That's the center of my life.
Yeah, I love that and well said.We, we share a lot of
commonalities. Umm, I've been in the deer
(03:22):
season just started here, bow season just started here in
Georgia this past weekend. And so I've been in the stand a
couple times. I can't wait to make that
happen. Excited about your upcoming trip
and family's a big deal to you as well.
You've Co written some books andI'm sure that's been a pleasure
both with your wife and your sons.
And you know, you shared a lot of that in your books.
And so, yeah, to read your your works, you kind of begin to get
(03:44):
to know John. But at the core of his being, I
think is this essence that he loves God deeply.
And that's contagious, brother. And so your latest work, and
I've, I've got a copy here. Experiencing Jesus, really.
And isn't that the name of the game?
I love that because your newest book invites us into everyday
encounters in Jesus, everyday encounters with Jesus and it
(04:07):
right in the middle of the noiseof modern life, right?
Because, you know, we we can't just isolate ourselves in caves.
We live this daily life. That doesn't mean that we aren't
created for more. And so I just want to ask you
this this question as we begin this journey in a world so
divided and restless. We've seen this time and time
again, over the last week or twoespecially.
(04:29):
How does experiencing Jesus really meet us right where we
are right now? OK, so I had to take my truck in
this morning and leave it at theshop.
And you know, they have a shuttle most, most of the shops
these days, they'll they'll shuttle you home.
But I knew, my goodness, I got to get home for this interview.
And I don't know how many peopleare going to be in that shuttle.
So I just, I just prayed. I just said, Papa, do you want
(04:51):
me to shuttle? You want me to Uber?
And I felt like he said, take anUber.
Well, here's why. So I get in the Uber with this
beautiful man. He was from Cuba.
His name is Carlos and his wife is from Venezuela.
And he, he was beginning to share a little bit of the
heartache of their lives. And so I had a chance to pray
for him. And at the end of the ride, I
(05:13):
realized that's why you had me. That's why you had me in this
Uber. Like there was an appointment
here. That's every day with Jesus.
Like if we're just willing to listen and invite him in.
Lord, come into this difficult meeting I'm about to go into,
come into carpool, you know, while I'm waiting for my kids, I
(05:33):
just want to be with you everywhere and in everything.
It's not, it's not complicated, folks.
And we are just inviting him in.Now.
Having said that, Chad, you knowthat the war in the world right
now is for your attention, everybody.
And I mean, I can get on. I use some of those online Bible
(05:55):
websites where you can look up the Hebrew and that sort of
thing. Well, they know, they know my
buying patterns. And suddenly here's ads for gear
and here's ads for, you know, outdoor adventures and stuff.
And the world is constantly hammering us and just trying to
get our attention. And that does make it difficult
(06:17):
to practice the presence of God because we are very distracted.
Absolutely you call in the book you call this that that we are
disciples of the Internet and asa millennial I I can't I find
that so true. I do remember life before the
Internet. I was small dating myself a
little bit. It was it was different.
(06:38):
And are are there positive wonderful things about the
Internet? Absolutely.
We can do this. You're in Colorado, I'm in
Georgia. We can make this happen.
Absolutely fantastic. But what I want us to see is
that we're very much shaped by what we return to on a daily
basis. Am I right?
Can you can you talk about that and compare that to kind of
lingering with God, this world we live in of immediate answers
(07:02):
and things can be on our doorstep same day, but yet the
Kingdom of God doesn't work so much that way.
Yeah, I think, I think people find it frustrating that they
they don't connect with God quickly and easily.
But God doesn't work like the Internet does.
I mean, you ask Google a question, you get 3,000,000
(07:23):
results in under a second, right, Right.
Well, in case everybody, this isgoing to be very helpful to you,
friends, you, your soul has beenconditioned by the hour that you
live in. We literally have just, we have
been almost hardened without wanting this, without asking for
(07:45):
it. We have been conditioned against
experiencing God in our day-to-day because we're driven
and we're distracted and becausewe expect immediate answers and
God isn't quite like that. He he doesn't like to shout and
he won't compete for your attention.
Tozer's beautiful line is he waits to be wanted.
(08:07):
And so if we choose him, and I've just been reading Andrew
Murray's beautiful book on he calls it the morning watch, but
it would be like your, your morning time was gone.
And this is in the 1800s, folks.And he is saying things like,
this is the most important half hour of your day.
(08:27):
You've got to get out of the madness and get time with God.
So we all believe that. But we've all been conditioned
by the hour in which we live. And you've been conditioned to
distraction. Your attention span, you know,
is about 15 seconds. And you've been conditioned to
immediate answers. And Oh my goodness, it's so hard
(08:51):
on the heart. Something else the Internet has
done to us, Chad, is you've alsobeen subtly conditioned to
unbelief. And let me let me explain why.
Because, OK, I hurt my back lastyear and I was getting online to
look up proper exercises, you know, strengthening the lower
back. Found a program, started doing
(09:12):
it. Well, now you know that the
logarithms know, you know my metrics.
And so the next day, here's new videos, here's a new expert, and
he's telling me, oh, no, no, no.The exercises you're doing not
only aren't helpful, they're actually hurting your back.
Yes, yeah. This happens to us all the time.
All the time. Yeah, it happens in the news for
(09:33):
sure, right? This is the news.
No, this is the news. You know, this is what's true.
No, this is what's true. And when this happens to you
over and over again, you, you just develop kind of a weary
suspicion. And I was chatting with a
beautiful man the other day. I mean, this is a guy who loves
(09:53):
God. And I was talking to him about
something and he just said to me, frankly, I'm just not even
sure what to believe anymore. Yeah, well.
He he's like, I just, I'm just suspicious of everything.
I'm like, yeah, you've been programmed to it.
We all have. And so if we know this, I think
it will help us begin to disentangle our souls a little
(10:15):
bit from the chaos of our moment.
And, and I mean, can we just addlike, the anger, the hatred,
like it doesn't take much to setpeople off these days.
Yeah, human nature gets yeah, and you set off easily.
Yeah, you. And again, you've been
programmed to it by by the typesof media that you consume, the
(10:39):
good guys, the bad guys, all that stuff.
So God doesn't like to shout andhe won't compete for your
attention. However, if you choose him, if
you will provide moments in yourday, and I'm not, I'm not
talking about an hour off in thewoods, folks.
I mean, that would be wonderful.But I have a job, my truck's at
(10:59):
the shop. I live a normal life.
You can. You can choose moments in the
day where you get out of the crazy and you just turn your
heart and your attention back toGod.
And even if it's as simple as this, where you just pause, you
pause and you say I love you, I love you, Lord, I love you, that
(11:19):
will literally turn your soul back into the experience of
Jesus. There's something to that pause.
And so often we miss that, that moment where we can redirect,
where we can shift back and where we can plug back into God.
And I love that. And it's so true.
All of your words ring so true in this world we live in because
(11:40):
it's almost like we feel like wehave to fill every moment, don't
we? You know, telling all myself a
little bit, but there's times where I may be just walking up
the stairs to put my kids to bed, but I'm like, OK, I can
check my e-mail really quickly on my way up the stairs.
You know, just that moment of time where, yes, where that
could be spent doing something else.
(12:00):
I'm, I'm finding myself needing to fill every moment of every
day with entertainment with something else to set off that
dopamine hit or whatever that may be.
When, how much, how much greaterwould it be to just hit that
pause button and to say, OK, God, you, you're where my
attention needs to go and just allow those moments to shape our
(12:23):
day. I love that.
And I'm reminded too. That or go ahead.
Well, Chad, I, I really want to put this in the context of
kindness. A friend of mine when he was
reading the first draft of Experience, Jesus, really?
He said Dang, he said it's, it'snot that we've all done
something wrong, He said something wrong has been done to
(12:47):
us. Yeah, I love that.
And so I want to put this in some grace and mercy, everybody,
we're not, we're not hammering on you, you know, and what we're
saying is your moment, this cultural moment has conditioned
you against the most precious thing in the world, which is
intimacy with God and experiencing, really
(13:08):
experiencing him. So that's OK, that's OK.
Look, we're all, we're all programmed to it, what we can
learn to do. Because The thing is, you're not
just looking for a dopamine hit.What most of us are looking for
is a sense of control over our lives.
You know, your kids got ADHD andthe school may not be helping as
(13:29):
much. So you're online, you're looking
up what's the latest programs? What's the medication?
What should I do? That's OK.
That's OK. You live in a very upsetting
world in a very unsettling time.Things are chaotic and we are
when we are continually turning to our phones and to the
(13:49):
Internet, what we're actually looking for is a sense of
control. So the other night, Stacey and I
love our bedtime routine. We pray, we usually do a worship
song. Sometimes we have communion
together. We just love our our bedtime
ritual. And we sometimes sit out on the
porch, you know, and you're listening to the crickets and
(14:12):
it's a beautiful evening. I just love it.
I love that time of day and we're letting everything go.
But no, I'm in here in my officeonline looking up more
information, you know, on Charlie Kirk and all the stuff
that's going on. And Jesus goes, and I was
looking up Israel and what's happening in Ukraine and the
(14:32):
drones and all that. And Jesus very gently speaks to
me and he says, John, do you really think that this is going
to help you solve anything? Right now I'm like, no, he's
like, get out on the porch, pal.OK, so there are choices we can
(14:53):
make. And one of the choices I want to
talk about because you mentionedthe pause.
So we practice this thing calledthe one minute pause.
And I used to do it. I'd pull in my driveway at the
end of the day. I'd lay my head down on my
steering wheel because I was fried.
I'm fried. At the end of the day, you're
spun up and you know, it was good day, bad day, news media,
(15:16):
all that stuff, work and, and Jesus would just say this.
He would say, John, just give everyone and everything to me.
Give everything to me. And so I would take literally 60
seconds because I'm making a transition.
I'm leaving, you know, the worldand my commute and all that, and
I'm walking in the door to be present to my wife and maybe the
(15:39):
kids are here, the grandkids andI don't want to be fried.
OK, So we've learned this practice so you can do anytime
during the day. You pause and you say, Jesus, I
give all that to you. I give that meaning to you.
I give that upsetting phone call.
I give the news to you, the thing I just saw on Instagram.
(16:00):
I just give that to you, Lord. It's called benevolent
detachment. You are untangling from the
world and if you will practice this, it's just amazing.
As soon as I begin to release things, I'm like, there you are,
God, you've been here all along.I I just haven't been able to
(16:22):
recognize it. So that simple thing of learning
to let go, learning to release people, projects, work the news
is a lovely, lovely way. You get, you kind of get to be
like a monk wherever you are in your day for 60 seconds you just
go, no, I'm pulling out. I'm giving everything to God and
(16:45):
I'm just going to be with you for a moment.
It it works. It does, and that's something
I've been, I've been leaning into as well.
There's, there's this choice that we have to detach from the
world and to attach ourselves back to Jesus.
And there's just that untangling.
I like the way you keep using that word.
There's this untangling that happens, and it's not that God
hasn't been there all along, butit's it's the fact that all of
(17:09):
these other things that our soulhas been conditioned to seek are
in the way and we began to untangle that.
That's when we really begin to find real life, I think.
Yeah, yeah. There's a scripture that you
that you work through in this book when it's the 91st Psalm,
and it's become one of my favorites.
I think maybe many people are familiar with that Psalm, but
(17:32):
you introduce it as a way that we can, we can go back under the
wings of God, the shadow of God,that we can find our safety and
refuge in Him and Him alone. And when you think about it, the
way that our souls have been conditioned, we don't naturally
do that anymore, do we? What are some of the things that
you see that we tend to seek forrefuge and safety other than the
(17:55):
Almighty God? Yeah, we we want omniscience and
we want omnipresence, and that'swhat technology has given us.
We feel that the big lie is this.
The big lie is knowing more is going to secure you.
Yeah. That's right.
What's tricky about that is, well, if your kid does need to
(18:16):
change medications or if your parents do need to get into a
memory care unit, of course you want to research that stuff.
That's OK. We're not saying you're going to
turn off your computer or your phone.
What we're saying is you have tobegin to become aware of what
your soul is looking for. OK, so I, I got hung up on dark
chocolate and I did AI did a 30 day fast back in January because
(18:41):
I was, I just knew I was using it.
I was using it, but I wasn't quite sure why.
It's emotional eating, right? It's self soothing, right?
I'm not eating because I'm hungry.
I'm not having it for dessert. I'm just doing it because I'm
kind of slightly agitated, right?
And what was amazing was underneath it.
It's the simplest thing in the world.
I was looking for comfort. Yes.
(19:04):
OK, so if we become aware, you know, I'm really angry right now
on the highway. You just go, Holy Spirit, come
into the anger. What's that about?
Right? Come beneath it, you know, or I
yeah, I'm, I'm driving through the drive through again and I'm,
I'm getting stuff I shouldn't begetting and eating.
(19:25):
You come and go. Jesus.
Why am I looking for comfort right now?
So we're inviting him in in the actual experience to ask him for
his comfort, to ask him for his solace.
I I had an amazing experience here the day, Chad, you're going
to love this. So I love, I love fishing.
I love fly fishing. I don't get to do it very often.
(19:49):
So I had a weekend free and I was at a friend's cabin.
We were, we were doing some workand down the road there's a pond
and it's got some fish. And so I went down to the pond
in the evening, and my plan was,I'm going to go catch a bunch of
fish. Yeah, But it was so beautiful.
And it was absolutely still. This was those evenings when
(20:11):
it's just glass. Right.
And you could see the sunset in the pond and and I realized this
isn't about fishing what my soulneeds.
And the old Saints would use theword solace or consolation, but
my soul needs care. So instead of fishing like I
(20:34):
didn't need action and activity,I actually need stillness and
the presence of God. I thought it was adventure that
I needed, but what my soul really needed was care.
Now most people are in that they're in that place, but they
they scroll, you know, they've been right.
They're maybe drinking some thenthey're not supposed to be
drinking. And but just to recognize my
(20:56):
soul needs care. Well, I invite you into that
God, I want the solace, the consolation, the love, the care
that you have for me. And he's eager to give it
friends. You do have to turn from the
things you're currently using, including your fun.
(21:19):
It's a choice, isn't? It it's an addiction.
It is, absolutely. I love time and time again you
use the word relief in the book as well, I believe.
Yeah. A lot of times we choose relief
over God. We choose relief from that
affliction, whatever that may seem from a bad day, from a bad
(21:43):
week, from an argument with our spouse, from being frustrated
with our kids, or, you know, whatever the, the affliction may
be for you. You know, a lot of times we seek
other things to soothe that for us.
And the truth is they will for aminute of that, that dark
chocolate tastes good for a few minutes, right?
(22:05):
But then at the end of it, it's gone.
And now you're like, well, I don't really feel a lot better.
I can, I can speak of the same. There's, there's been times
where I have just been and you know, this, I think a lot of us
in our world today can relate tothis emotional eating thing,
right? There's times where I, I'll have
a bad day, I'll come downstairs and out.
It'll be stressful at, you know,getting the kids to bed.
My kids are three, five and seven.
(22:26):
So, Oh yeah, you can understand where I'm at right now.
Oh, yeah. And I'll come downstairs and the
kids are finally in bed. I'm like, OK, I need a reward.
And I don't say that. I don't verbalize that, but
that's what my, that's what my heart is screaming out.
I need a reward because, oh, what a stressful time that was.
And I opened my refrigerator or open to go to my pantry.
(22:46):
And I don't know if you've ever done this, maybe you can relate.
First you might go to something salty and then you say, well,
that was too salty now. And he's something sweet to
balance that out. And you're back and forth and
before you know it, you're 608 hundred calories in and now
you've just, you've messed up the whole day and, and now you
feel guilty about that. And that adds to the stress that
(23:07):
that now you are rolling around in.
That's just a small example. A lot of people it's, it's
alcohol for a lot of people it'sdrugs for whatever your your
vice may be. We're looking for that relief.
We're not finding it because oursouls are made and created for
letting God be our refuge. And that's what that's what the
(23:29):
91st Psalm is talking about. Yeah.
Conditional right there. There is this big word in there
and it's if. Can you tell us about the power
of if? That's found in a lot of places
in the Bible. Yes.
Why is that, if so important to us and and what does that tell
us about the choices we must make?
Yeah, because the Psalm starts off with these beautiful
(23:52):
promises. He or she who dwells in the
shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the
Almighty. I will say of the Lord, you are
my refuge and my fortress, you know, and it goes on to say all
these wonderful things. He's going to protect you and
love you and bless you and care for you.
But then you get down deep into the Psalm and it says, if you
(24:14):
make the Most High your refuge, if it's, it's a choice.
God doesn't force himself on people and he lets us live out
our choices. Some people for their entire
lives, right until they finally say, uncle, this isn't working
if it's the exact same, if that Jesus uses in John 15 where he
(24:38):
says remain in me and I will remain in you.
OK, Yeah. And later Paul in one of his
epistles, talks about people whohave lost connection with
Christ. Besides, they haven't lost their
salvation, but they are not connected to the Savior anymore.
And they're off into weird stuffand, you know, strange doctrines
(24:59):
and teachings and things. And he says that they've lost
connection with the head. So there's an if all throughout
the Scriptures, right? That if you will choose the way
of God, his ways, if you will choose apprenticeship,
discipleship to Jesus. Yes.
Then these wonderful things thatare promised can come to you,
(25:24):
right, that everybody likes the second-half of John 1010, right?
I've come that you may have lifeand have it to the full well
that that is half of a verse in an entire dialogue that Jesus is
giving. That's right.
And he he says, my sheep hear myvoice.
They follow me and I lead them to good pasture, right?
(25:47):
If you don't want to follow him,there's the if, right?
You're not going to get to that life abundant.
You just aren't. And so, yeah, we're making
choices every day of where we'regoing for a sense of stability,
a sense of assurance. You know, some people are just
absolutely addicted to the stockmarket and they're watching
their investments and kind of thing.
(26:08):
Well, they're looking for security.
And God says, if you choose me, I will be those things for you.
And I want to come back to the thing you said about relief,
because, folks, there is a big difference between relief and
restoration. Relief is momentary, Restoration
lasts. Restoration is how you feel
(26:30):
about the second week of your vacation, right?
But you, you realize, oh man, I'm doing better.
I, I'm actually OK. So God offers restoration.
This is Psalm 23. He restores my soul, whereas
what the world is offering is, yeah, all sorts of temporary
(26:50):
relief which lasts, you know, anywhere from 60 seconds to
maybe 5 minutes. Right, right.
And that's, that's what our souls are after is that
restoration. And too, too many times, you
know, no judgement and shame tied to it.
It's just the way that it's, it's the, it's the moment we're
in right now. But we tend to substitute
(27:10):
restoration for momentary relief, and no wonder we aren't
finding what we're looking for. Yes.
Yeah, it becomes a cheap substitute.
That's right. And again, a lot of this is we
weren't shown the way. No, but nobody explained these
things to us. Nobody warned us that you, you
are being conditioned by your cultural moment against the very
(27:34):
thing you need, which is a regular, intimate experience
with Jesus. But in that, in that John 15
passage about I'm the the vine, you're the branches.
To be a human being is to be needy.
It's OK that you're needy, right?
It's OK that you have these profound needs and longings for
(27:55):
love and security and meaning and adventure and beauty and
romance and all that. Like you're made for that.
The soul is healed and the soul is sustained through union with
Jesus. And this is such an important
thing. I, I want to say this because
many people, again, it's what you've been shown.
(28:17):
It's what you've been modeled. It's like if you go to church
and you read your Bible and you're going to be good and God
loves that and he'll be with youand he'll meet you in those
things. But those things are a means to
an end. They're not the thing itself.
They are meant to usher you backinto union, actual union and
(28:38):
communion with God, with your Father, with the Lord Jesus, and
with the Holy Spirit. Soul is made for this.
And the more that you experienceunion with God, that He, so
Christ now lives within you, so does your Papa.
You know, John 14. We will come to him and we will
make our home with you. OK.
(29:00):
So learning to experience and enjoy union with God, you will
actually not have to discipline yourself against scrolling and
binging and overeating or your sexual addictions or visiting
prostitutes or whatever it is you're doing.
(29:20):
You won't need, you won't need to do that because in Psalm 63,
which is another one of my favorite Psalms, Chad David says
some pretty wild things. He says, you satisfy me more
than a banquet could. I'm like, wait, what?
And then he says, your love is better than life.
(29:42):
Now he's not just being poetic. He's not just trying to, you
know, come up with a good sermon.
He is reporting an actual experience of what it's like to
be in union with God. And he's he's like, it's, it's
incredible. It's nourishing, It's
comforting, it it it is better than life.
(30:05):
Yeah, yeah. Well, the scriptures kind of
assume that all throughout Old and New Testament, that's the
deal. Yeah.
And that's not meant to be an exception for people.
You go, oh, well, you know, yeah, my, you know, my maybe my
pastor experiences that or, yeah, John Eldridge gets that or
whatever that is for everyone. Yeah.
That is the basic offer. And I just am trying to reframe
(30:28):
this from people. Your soul is meant for union
with God, union with Christ. Through Christ, and in the
practice of that union, you willexperience the healing of your
soul. You will.
And what I'm reminded of is thisconcept of the closer we get to
God, the more that we're in union with him, the more that
(30:51):
our desires become his desires. And you know, it protects
against what I, what I like to call white knuckle Christianity.
I didn't make it up. Now you know where it's just,
you know, you, you just got to try harder, you know, you just
got to be more disciplined. Just just get up earlier, you
know, in, in all of these thingsand check all the boxes.
And then you'll, you'll find what you're looking for.
(31:12):
And that described a lot of my adult life, if I'm honest.
It wasn't until my mid 20s that I really began to discover that,
to discover that there was a relationship, there was a union
that needed to happen. And it was in that union that I
no longer had to battle against myself.
That's that's where we find Pauldescribing that whole self
(31:32):
conflict in Romans. So and so I found myself in that
battle as well. But you know, the closer we grow
to Christ, the less we want to do the things that that aren't
his will. And I think that's really worth
mentioning because a lot of times there is that, especially
I'm down here in the Bible Belt,there really is that sense of,
OK, I go to church, I do the right things and therefore I'm
(31:55):
good. But one of the things I'm trying
to call people to is this deeperlife that's not meant for the
Super Saints. It's not meant for just the
pastors and those that are called to vocational ministry,
but it's called for every singlebeliever.
One of the one of the evangelistthat made quite a difference in
my life early on when I started to get a hold of this concept
said this, you can go as deep with God as you want to go.
(32:20):
The question is how deep do you want to go?
And I thought that was so meaningful because you know, a
lot of times we're the rate limiting step.
God has so much for us. That's right.
That that we're not tapping intoand that union, that union is
that I think the ticket and it'snot complicated.
All said Chad, I mean, Amen. Well, one of the things that
(32:42):
came to mind too, when you were mentioning this and you very
eloquently go through this in your book, is the fact that
there are only two kingdoms. And I kind of want to kind of
maybe head into that as we, we end our time together.
But there's, there's two kingdoms, there's God's Kingdom
and there's Satan's Kingdom. You know, CS Lewis, I believe,
basically tells us there's no square inch of this world that's
(33:05):
not claimed by either one of those.
But so many times we try to findthat happy medium, don't we?
We try to find that third way towhere you know, we, we won't
God, but we also want the good life as you describe it.
Or maybe let me paint a different picture according to
my experience. We want enough of God for
(33:27):
eternal life, but not so much that he changes our current
life. Can you, can you go into that a
little bit with us and just talkabout what that looks like?
The fact that there are only twokingdoms and the enemy has kind
of lied to us and told us that'snot the case.
But choosing union, choosing to had a daily experience with God
(33:49):
to to bring him into every part of your life is one of the ways
of kind of taking that back. Yeah, folks, again, this isn't
your fault. Most of you were not, you were
not given a, a, a good picture of reality.
Jesus is a very realistic guy. Most of the stuff he says is is
just reality. So when he says, I've come that
(34:11):
you may have life, the first thing he says, that's the
second-half of his sentence. The first part of the sentence
is the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy.
Now, that's pretty graphic, right?
Kill and destroy. And then in first Peter 5, when
it says, hey, heads up your enemy, the devil prowls around
like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
(34:37):
Ladies and gentlemen, you were born into a world at war.
You do not live in the happy little Shire of the Hobbits.
You live at the gates of Helms Deep.
You live in the Ayodrang Valley of Vietnam.
You you live in Afghanistan. Spiritually, this is where most
people end up feeling very hurt by God.
(34:59):
Why did you let that happen? How come you didn't answer those
prayers? I'm trying to find you, but my
childhood trauma just keeps showing up and taking me out and
wants to say friends. He understands that he offers,
he says, but you have got to take the fight seriously.
You are not living in a neutral world.
(35:20):
You are living in a world that every day is filled with the
Kingdom of darkness trying to destroy people, including you,
your loved ones, your work, yourdreams, your marriage, your
sexuality, anywhere they can getin, any angle they can get in.
This is not scary. This is such a relief to go, oh,
(35:43):
wait a second. I mean, all that negative stuff
that goes on in my head, that's not just me exactly, friends.
That's not just you. And all that hard stuff that
happens every single time our family tries to take a vacation.
That's not just us, that's right, that's not just you.
If you will take your situation seriously, this will this will
(36:07):
draw you into intimacy with Christ.
You go, how do I pray? What do I do?
Show me the way. Like now you realize, oh, I need
a captain. I need, I need a king and I I
need a bodyguard. Well, that's Psalm 91.
He will command his angels concerning you and.
That's the context of that Psalm.
It's in the middle of a war. Psalm 91 takes place in the
(36:29):
midst of war, as does Psalm 23, as does the entire Bible.
OK, this is where most people are dangerously naive.
They just don't want to hear it.They don't want to deal with it.
But if you will begin, you just take your thought life and just
go. Wait a second.
All this shame I live with all this self condemnation, that's
(36:51):
not just me. Nope, no, I, I bet 90% of it
isn't you. Well, then what do I do about
that? Now we can help you, right?
First off, the power of breakingagreements with Satan's lies.
When he comes in and he says your marriage isn't worth it,
you say that's a lie, I break agreements with that.
When he comes in and says nobodyreally likes you, you say no, I
(37:14):
break agreements with that, I reject that.
Right. And and on and on.
Like you can win this fight and your heart just goes, Oh my
goodness, I feel so much better because I'm taking reality
seriously. Well, and while the enemy is
spiritual, warfare is real. And you know, for time's sake we
won't go into that. But I think that needs to be
(37:35):
said. That's not just something people
make up to make it more dramaticthan it needs to be.
No, it's real. But here's the thing, we're on
the winning side. If you find yourself in Christ,
you find yourself having the potential to live in victory
over the enemy. And so it's not scary.
I love how you said that. You know, you describe this
scene where a lot of us would gasp and say, oh, no, I can't
(37:58):
believe we find ourselves in this situation.
But it doesn't have to be scary.And that's what's so important
about the message that you're putting out there.
There is hope, friends. There is hope.
And his name is Jesus. And if we can, if we can reclaim
what's rightfully ours, if we can pause and let let the Spirit
of God restore us and make communion with God not something
(38:23):
that we shoot for once a week onSundays, but something that is
very much a part of every part of our lives, then I'm convinced
that's the John 1010 B that he'stalking about.
That's. Right, you may have life and
have it abundantly. I've never done this before,
John, but I would love, as we finish our time together, would
(38:44):
you offer a prayer for us? There's a lot of people hurting
right now. There's a lot of people that are
struggling. There's a lot of people that may
have, you know, they may have made a decision for Christ years
ago and you know, they're just, it's not working out the way
that they had hoped or maybe they haven't quite made that
decision yet. But I'd love if you would just
OfferUp a prayer for us as we end our time together and invite
(39:07):
Christ into this conversation that's going to be spreading on
the Airways before long, and invite Him to do what only He
can do. Folks, let's pray together.
I'm going to pray in the first person, but this is you and God,
OK? And here's what we pray.
Jesus, I need this. I need a much deeper experience
of you. I need a much deeper union.
(39:30):
I see it. I get it.
I'm sorry. Help me.
Help me. Help me out of the madness.
Help me out of the distraction, come into my heartache, come
into my need for comfort and Hiscare.
I need your help, Jesus. I want this life with you.
(39:53):
And so I turn towards you right now.
I open my heart to you and I say, Jesus, come in, come in.
Let us, let us commune in life together.
I pray for union with you, Lord.I pray for oneness.
In the name of God our Father and of the Lord Jesus, and with
(40:13):
the help of the Holy Spirit, Amen.
Amen. Thank you brother.
I just want to close with this. If your heart is uneasy and if
you're feeling burdened in life,I invite you to give it a try.
Give, give what we're talking about a try.
And if you do it wholeheartedly,Scripture tells us if you seek
(40:35):
God with your whole heart, then you will find Him.
And then I'll add to that, you will find what your heart's been
looking for. John, brother, I can't thank you
enough for joining me today. What a privilege this has been.
Yeah, what a delight. Yeah, this is such a good
conversation. Can you tell our listeners as we
close where to find out more about you?
(40:55):
I'm going to post links in the show notes, of course, but what
you're up to these days and the latest in the comings and goings
of John Eldridge. Yeah, so we have an organization
called Wild at Heart. We have a podcast called Wild at
Heart, and you can get on our website at wild@heart.org.
And we have this beautiful thingcalled the One Minute Pause app.
(41:16):
It's free and you can get it at the App Store, The One Minute
Pause. And it will lead you into the
life we're talking about becauseit will help you each day.
Pause, let it go, and find the union with Jesus.
Love it, love it. I'll add those links brother.
Thank you my friend. Appreciate you joining me.
God bless you. God bless you.
(41:38):
Thank you for listening to the Rev RX Podcast.
We hope you enjoyed what you heard today and if so, we'd love
it if you would hit that subscribe button so that you'll
never miss a new episode from us.
Also, feel free to leave us reviews and comments as we'd
love to hear from you. Be blessed and be the very best
you.
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Rev RX
Podcast where we show you how tothrive in faith, family, and
health. My name is Chad Potts and I'm
your host. And today is episode 81, and
this is an episode that I had been waiting on.
This one is with a special faithhero of mine by the name of John
(00:32):
Eldridge. I'm sure many of you are
familiar with him and his works.One of his earliest books, Wild
at Heart, is an international bestseller, has brought so many
people to a fuller understandingof the Kingdom of God and the
heart that he's put inside of men.
I first studied that book when Iwas in college with a friend of
mine and a leader at church. And let me tell you, my heart
(00:54):
was changed because of those words.
I have a whole shelf on my bookshelf devoted to his works
because he just has a way with words in helping us to
understand how to go deeper withGod.
He's sold over 15,000,000 books worldwide.
He's one of the most important voices of this generation.
So I don't want to give away anything.
I want you to listen in to the entire episode.
(01:15):
We're going to be sitting down with a legend, and we're going
to be listening as he tells us what it looks like to follow
Jesus the way that we're called to do it.
What a great honor it is to introduce you to my new friend,
John Eldridge. John Eldridge, the man who needs
no introduction. But man, what a privilege it is
(01:36):
to have you here on the Rev RX Podcast.
Welcome to the show. Thank you, Chad.
It's great to be here with you. Looking forward to the
conversation. Absolutely.
We've shared some comments beforehand and talked about how
you've emphasized the man's heart and really Wild at Heart
was probably one of the first Christian books I read and that
just really set my heart on firefor the Lord.
(01:57):
And I have followed your works for years, as I'm sure many of
my listeners have. And so I just want to say thank
you for your voice. Thank you for letting the the
Holy Spirit speak through you all these years.
You know you, you sold over, from what I can tell, 15,000,000
copies. And you're the founder president
of Wild at Heart Ministries. You have a master's degree in
counseling. We know about the John Eldridge
(02:20):
that we have come to know and love, but I just want to give
you an opportunity to say, who are you really?
Well, you do know me if you've read anything.
I don't hide much. You don't hold back I.
Think that honesty and vulnerability is important,
particularly in men and and in male friendships and
relationships. Guys need to learn how to do
that. But grandpa now got 8
(02:41):
grandchildren. Loving that Stacy and I will
celebrate 43 years this coming October.
I love, love the outdoors. I'm, I'm about to go archery
hunting for elk in just a few days and really looking forward
to that. But you know what, Chad?
(03:02):
Here's the thing that if you want to know me, I love God very
deeply and I love, I love my relationship with him.
The That's the center of my life.
Yeah, I love that and well said.We, we share a lot of
commonalities. Umm, I've been in the deer
(03:22):
season just started here, bow season just started here in
Georgia this past weekend. And so I've been in the stand a
couple times. I can't wait to make that
happen. Excited about your upcoming trip
and family's a big deal to you as well.
You've Co written some books andI'm sure that's been a pleasure
both with your wife and your sons.
And you know, you shared a lot of that in your books.
And so, yeah, to read your your works, you kind of begin to get
(03:44):
to know John. But at the core of his being, I
think is this essence that he loves God deeply.
And that's contagious, brother. And so your latest work, and
I've, I've got a copy here. Experiencing Jesus, really.
And isn't that the name of the game?
I love that because your newest book invites us into everyday
encounters in Jesus, everyday encounters with Jesus and it
(04:07):
right in the middle of the noiseof modern life, right?
Because, you know, we we can't just isolate ourselves in caves.
We live this daily life. That doesn't mean that we aren't
created for more. And so I just want to ask you
this this question as we begin this journey in a world so
divided and restless. We've seen this time and time
again, over the last week or twoespecially.
(04:29):
How does experiencing Jesus really meet us right where we
are right now? OK, so I had to take my truck in
this morning and leave it at theshop.
And you know, they have a shuttle most, most of the shops
these days, they'll they'll shuttle you home.
But I knew, my goodness, I got to get home for this interview.
And I don't know how many peopleare going to be in that shuttle.
So I just, I just prayed. I just said, Papa, do you want
(04:51):
me to shuttle? You want me to Uber?
And I felt like he said, take anUber.
Well, here's why. So I get in the Uber with this
beautiful man. He was from Cuba.
His name is Carlos and his wife is from Venezuela.
And he, he was beginning to share a little bit of the
heartache of their lives. And so I had a chance to pray
for him. And at the end of the ride, I
(05:13):
realized that's why you had me. That's why you had me in this
Uber. Like there was an appointment
here. That's every day with Jesus.
Like if we're just willing to listen and invite him in.
Lord, come into this difficult meeting I'm about to go into,
come into carpool, you know, while I'm waiting for my kids, I
(05:33):
just want to be with you everywhere and in everything.
It's not, it's not complicated, folks.
And we are just inviting him in.Now.
Having said that, Chad, you knowthat the war in the world right
now is for your attention, everybody.
And I mean, I can get on. I use some of those online Bible
(05:55):
websites where you can look up the Hebrew and that sort of
thing. Well, they know, they know my
buying patterns. And suddenly here's ads for gear
and here's ads for, you know, outdoor adventures and stuff.
And the world is constantly hammering us and just trying to
get our attention. And that does make it difficult
(06:17):
to practice the presence of God because we are very distracted.
Absolutely you call in the book you call this that that we are
disciples of the Internet and asa millennial I I can't I find
that so true. I do remember life before the
Internet. I was small dating myself a
little bit. It was it was different.
(06:38):
And are are there positive wonderful things about the
Internet? Absolutely.
We can do this. You're in Colorado, I'm in
Georgia. We can make this happen.
Absolutely fantastic. But what I want us to see is
that we're very much shaped by what we return to on a daily
basis. Am I right?
Can you can you talk about that and compare that to kind of
lingering with God, this world we live in of immediate answers
(07:02):
and things can be on our doorstep same day, but yet the
Kingdom of God doesn't work so much that way.
Yeah, I think, I think people find it frustrating that they
they don't connect with God quickly and easily.
But God doesn't work like the Internet does.
I mean, you ask Google a question, you get 3,000,000
(07:23):
results in under a second, right, Right.
Well, in case everybody, this isgoing to be very helpful to you,
friends, you, your soul has beenconditioned by the hour that you
live in. We literally have just, we have
been almost hardened without wanting this, without asking for
(07:45):
it. We have been conditioned against
experiencing God in our day-to-day because we're driven
and we're distracted and becausewe expect immediate answers and
God isn't quite like that. He he doesn't like to shout and
he won't compete for your attention.
Tozer's beautiful line is he waits to be wanted.
(08:07):
And so if we choose him, and I've just been reading Andrew
Murray's beautiful book on he calls it the morning watch, but
it would be like your, your morning time was gone.
And this is in the 1800s, folks.And he is saying things like,
this is the most important half hour of your day.
(08:27):
You've got to get out of the madness and get time with God.
So we all believe that. But we've all been conditioned
by the hour in which we live. And you've been conditioned to
distraction. Your attention span, you know,
is about 15 seconds. And you've been conditioned to
immediate answers. And Oh my goodness, it's so hard
(08:51):
on the heart. Something else the Internet has
done to us, Chad, is you've alsobeen subtly conditioned to
unbelief. And let me let me explain why.
Because, OK, I hurt my back lastyear and I was getting online to
look up proper exercises, you know, strengthening the lower
back. Found a program, started doing
(09:12):
it. Well, now you know that the
logarithms know, you know my metrics.
And so the next day, here's new videos, here's a new expert, and
he's telling me, oh, no, no, no.The exercises you're doing not
only aren't helpful, they're actually hurting your back.
Yes, yeah. This happens to us all the time.
All the time. Yeah, it happens in the news for
(09:33):
sure, right? This is the news.
No, this is the news. You know, this is what's true.
No, this is what's true. And when this happens to you
over and over again, you, you just develop kind of a weary
suspicion. And I was chatting with a
beautiful man the other day. I mean, this is a guy who loves
(09:53):
God. And I was talking to him about
something and he just said to me, frankly, I'm just not even
sure what to believe anymore. Yeah, well.
He he's like, I just, I'm just suspicious of everything.
I'm like, yeah, you've been programmed to it.
We all have. And so if we know this, I think
it will help us begin to disentangle our souls a little
(10:15):
bit from the chaos of our moment.
And, and I mean, can we just addlike, the anger, the hatred,
like it doesn't take much to setpeople off these days.
Yeah, human nature gets yeah, and you set off easily.
Yeah, you. And again, you've been
programmed to it by by the typesof media that you consume, the
(10:39):
good guys, the bad guys, all that stuff.
So God doesn't like to shout andhe won't compete for your
attention. However, if you choose him, if
you will provide moments in yourday, and I'm not, I'm not
talking about an hour off in thewoods, folks.
I mean, that would be wonderful.But I have a job, my truck's at
(10:59):
the shop. I live a normal life.
You can. You can choose moments in the
day where you get out of the crazy and you just turn your
heart and your attention back toGod.
And even if it's as simple as this, where you just pause, you
pause and you say I love you, I love you, Lord, I love you, that
(11:19):
will literally turn your soul back into the experience of
Jesus. There's something to that pause.
And so often we miss that, that moment where we can redirect,
where we can shift back and where we can plug back into God.
And I love that. And it's so true.
All of your words ring so true in this world we live in because
(11:40):
it's almost like we feel like wehave to fill every moment, don't
we? You know, telling all myself a
little bit, but there's times where I may be just walking up
the stairs to put my kids to bed, but I'm like, OK, I can
check my e-mail really quickly on my way up the stairs.
You know, just that moment of time where, yes, where that
could be spent doing something else.
(12:00):
I'm, I'm finding myself needing to fill every moment of every
day with entertainment with something else to set off that
dopamine hit or whatever that may be.
When, how much, how much greaterwould it be to just hit that
pause button and to say, OK, God, you, you're where my
attention needs to go and just allow those moments to shape our
(12:23):
day. I love that.
And I'm reminded too. That or go ahead.
Well, Chad, I, I really want to put this in the context of
kindness. A friend of mine when he was
reading the first draft of Experience, Jesus, really?
He said Dang, he said it's, it'snot that we've all done
something wrong, He said something wrong has been done to
(12:47):
us. Yeah, I love that.
And so I want to put this in some grace and mercy, everybody,
we're not, we're not hammering on you, you know, and what we're
saying is your moment, this cultural moment has conditioned
you against the most precious thing in the world, which is
intimacy with God and experiencing, really
(13:08):
experiencing him. So that's OK, that's OK.
Look, we're all, we're all programmed to it, what we can
learn to do. Because The thing is, you're not
just looking for a dopamine hit.What most of us are looking for
is a sense of control over our lives.
You know, your kids got ADHD andthe school may not be helping as
(13:29):
much. So you're online, you're looking
up what's the latest programs? What's the medication?
What should I do? That's OK.
That's OK. You live in a very upsetting
world in a very unsettling time.Things are chaotic and we are
when we are continually turning to our phones and to the
(13:49):
Internet, what we're actually looking for is a sense of
control. So the other night, Stacey and I
love our bedtime routine. We pray, we usually do a worship
song. Sometimes we have communion
together. We just love our our bedtime
ritual. And we sometimes sit out on the
porch, you know, and you're listening to the crickets and
(14:12):
it's a beautiful evening. I just love it.
I love that time of day and we're letting everything go.
But no, I'm in here in my officeonline looking up more
information, you know, on Charlie Kirk and all the stuff
that's going on. And Jesus goes, and I was
looking up Israel and what's happening in Ukraine and the
(14:32):
drones and all that. And Jesus very gently speaks to
me and he says, John, do you really think that this is going
to help you solve anything? Right now I'm like, no, he's
like, get out on the porch, pal.OK, so there are choices we can
(14:53):
make. And one of the choices I want to
talk about because you mentionedthe pause.
So we practice this thing calledthe one minute pause.
And I used to do it. I'd pull in my driveway at the
end of the day. I'd lay my head down on my
steering wheel because I was fried.
I'm fried. At the end of the day, you're
spun up and you know, it was good day, bad day, news media,
(15:16):
all that stuff, work and, and Jesus would just say this.
He would say, John, just give everyone and everything to me.
Give everything to me. And so I would take literally 60
seconds because I'm making a transition.
I'm leaving, you know, the worldand my commute and all that, and
I'm walking in the door to be present to my wife and maybe the
(15:39):
kids are here, the grandkids andI don't want to be fried.
OK, So we've learned this practice so you can do anytime
during the day. You pause and you say, Jesus, I
give all that to you. I give that meaning to you.
I give that upsetting phone call.
I give the news to you, the thing I just saw on Instagram.
(16:00):
I just give that to you, Lord. It's called benevolent
detachment. You are untangling from the
world and if you will practice this, it's just amazing.
As soon as I begin to release things, I'm like, there you are,
God, you've been here all along.I I just haven't been able to
(16:22):
recognize it. So that simple thing of learning
to let go, learning to release people, projects, work the news
is a lovely, lovely way. You get, you kind of get to be
like a monk wherever you are in your day for 60 seconds you just
go, no, I'm pulling out. I'm giving everything to God and
(16:45):
I'm just going to be with you for a moment.
It it works. It does, and that's something
I've been, I've been leaning into as well.
There's, there's this choice that we have to detach from the
world and to attach ourselves back to Jesus.
And there's just that untangling.
I like the way you keep using that word.
There's this untangling that happens, and it's not that God
hasn't been there all along, butit's it's the fact that all of
(17:09):
these other things that our soulhas been conditioned to seek are
in the way and we began to untangle that.
That's when we really begin to find real life, I think.
Yeah, yeah. There's a scripture that you
that you work through in this book when it's the 91st Psalm,
and it's become one of my favorites.
I think maybe many people are familiar with that Psalm, but
(17:32):
you introduce it as a way that we can, we can go back under the
wings of God, the shadow of God,that we can find our safety and
refuge in Him and Him alone. And when you think about it, the
way that our souls have been conditioned, we don't naturally
do that anymore, do we? What are some of the things that
you see that we tend to seek forrefuge and safety other than the
(17:55):
Almighty God? Yeah, we we want omniscience and
we want omnipresence, and that'swhat technology has given us.
We feel that the big lie is this.
The big lie is knowing more is going to secure you.
Yeah. That's right.
What's tricky about that is, well, if your kid does need to
(18:16):
change medications or if your parents do need to get into a
memory care unit, of course you want to research that stuff.
That's OK. We're not saying you're going to
turn off your computer or your phone.
What we're saying is you have tobegin to become aware of what
your soul is looking for. OK, so I, I got hung up on dark
chocolate and I did AI did a 30 day fast back in January because
(18:41):
I was, I just knew I was using it.
I was using it, but I wasn't quite sure why.
It's emotional eating, right? It's self soothing, right?
I'm not eating because I'm hungry.
I'm not having it for dessert. I'm just doing it because I'm
kind of slightly agitated, right?
And what was amazing was underneath it.
It's the simplest thing in the world.
I was looking for comfort. Yes.
(19:04):
OK, so if we become aware, you know, I'm really angry right now
on the highway. You just go, Holy Spirit, come
into the anger. What's that about?
Right? Come beneath it, you know, or I
yeah, I'm, I'm driving through the drive through again and I'm,
I'm getting stuff I shouldn't begetting and eating.
(19:25):
You come and go. Jesus.
Why am I looking for comfort right now?
So we're inviting him in in the actual experience to ask him for
his comfort, to ask him for his solace.
I I had an amazing experience here the day, Chad, you're going
to love this. So I love, I love fishing.
I love fly fishing. I don't get to do it very often.
(19:49):
So I had a weekend free and I was at a friend's cabin.
We were, we were doing some workand down the road there's a pond
and it's got some fish. And so I went down to the pond
in the evening, and my plan was,I'm going to go catch a bunch of
fish. Yeah, But it was so beautiful.
And it was absolutely still. This was those evenings when
(20:11):
it's just glass. Right.
And you could see the sunset in the pond and and I realized this
isn't about fishing what my soulneeds.
And the old Saints would use theword solace or consolation, but
my soul needs care. So instead of fishing like I
(20:34):
didn't need action and activity,I actually need stillness and
the presence of God. I thought it was adventure that
I needed, but what my soul really needed was care.
Now most people are in that they're in that place, but they
they scroll, you know, they've been right.
They're maybe drinking some thenthey're not supposed to be
drinking. And but just to recognize my
(20:56):
soul needs care. Well, I invite you into that
God, I want the solace, the consolation, the love, the care
that you have for me. And he's eager to give it
friends. You do have to turn from the
things you're currently using, including your fun.
(21:19):
It's a choice, isn't? It it's an addiction.
It is, absolutely. I love time and time again you
use the word relief in the book as well, I believe.
Yeah. A lot of times we choose relief
over God. We choose relief from that
affliction, whatever that may seem from a bad day, from a bad
(21:43):
week, from an argument with our spouse, from being frustrated
with our kids, or, you know, whatever the, the affliction may
be for you. You know, a lot of times we seek
other things to soothe that for us.
And the truth is they will for aminute of that, that dark
chocolate tastes good for a few minutes, right?
(22:05):
But then at the end of it, it's gone.
And now you're like, well, I don't really feel a lot better.
I can, I can speak of the same. There's, there's been times
where I have just been and you know, this, I think a lot of us
in our world today can relate tothis emotional eating thing,
right? There's times where I, I'll have
a bad day, I'll come downstairs and out.
It'll be stressful at, you know,getting the kids to bed.
My kids are three, five and seven.
(22:26):
So, Oh yeah, you can understand where I'm at right now.
Oh, yeah. And I'll come downstairs and the
kids are finally in bed. I'm like, OK, I need a reward.
And I don't say that. I don't verbalize that, but
that's what my, that's what my heart is screaming out.
I need a reward because, oh, what a stressful time that was.
And I opened my refrigerator or open to go to my pantry.
(22:46):
And I don't know if you've ever done this, maybe you can relate.
First you might go to something salty and then you say, well,
that was too salty now. And he's something sweet to
balance that out. And you're back and forth and
before you know it, you're 608 hundred calories in and now
you've just, you've messed up the whole day and, and now you
feel guilty about that. And that adds to the stress that
(23:07):
that now you are rolling around in.
That's just a small example. A lot of people it's, it's
alcohol for a lot of people it'sdrugs for whatever your your
vice may be. We're looking for that relief.
We're not finding it because oursouls are made and created for
letting God be our refuge. And that's what that's what the
(23:29):
91st Psalm is talking about. Yeah.
Conditional right there. There is this big word in there
and it's if. Can you tell us about the power
of if? That's found in a lot of places
in the Bible. Yes.
Why is that, if so important to us and and what does that tell
us about the choices we must make?
Yeah, because the Psalm starts off with these beautiful
(23:52):
promises. He or she who dwells in the
shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the
Almighty. I will say of the Lord, you are
my refuge and my fortress, you know, and it goes on to say all
these wonderful things. He's going to protect you and
love you and bless you and care for you.
But then you get down deep into the Psalm and it says, if you
(24:14):
make the Most High your refuge, if it's, it's a choice.
God doesn't force himself on people and he lets us live out
our choices. Some people for their entire
lives, right until they finally say, uncle, this isn't working
if it's the exact same, if that Jesus uses in John 15 where he
(24:38):
says remain in me and I will remain in you.
OK, Yeah. And later Paul in one of his
epistles, talks about people whohave lost connection with
Christ. Besides, they haven't lost their
salvation, but they are not connected to the Savior anymore.
And they're off into weird stuffand, you know, strange doctrines
(24:59):
and teachings and things. And he says that they've lost
connection with the head. So there's an if all throughout
the Scriptures, right? That if you will choose the way
of God, his ways, if you will choose apprenticeship,
discipleship to Jesus. Yes.
Then these wonderful things thatare promised can come to you,
(25:24):
right, that everybody likes the second-half of John 1010, right?
I've come that you may have lifeand have it to the full well
that that is half of a verse in an entire dialogue that Jesus is
giving. That's right.
And he he says, my sheep hear myvoice.
They follow me and I lead them to good pasture, right?
(25:47):
If you don't want to follow him,there's the if, right?
You're not going to get to that life abundant.
You just aren't. And so, yeah, we're making
choices every day of where we'regoing for a sense of stability,
a sense of assurance. You know, some people are just
absolutely addicted to the stockmarket and they're watching
their investments and kind of thing.
(26:08):
Well, they're looking for security.
And God says, if you choose me, I will be those things for you.
And I want to come back to the thing you said about relief,
because, folks, there is a big difference between relief and
restoration. Relief is momentary, Restoration
lasts. Restoration is how you feel
(26:30):
about the second week of your vacation, right?
But you, you realize, oh man, I'm doing better.
I, I'm actually OK. So God offers restoration.
This is Psalm 23. He restores my soul, whereas
what the world is offering is, yeah, all sorts of temporary
(26:50):
relief which lasts, you know, anywhere from 60 seconds to
maybe 5 minutes. Right, right.
And that's, that's what our souls are after is that
restoration. And too, too many times, you
know, no judgement and shame tied to it.
It's just the way that it's, it's the, it's the moment we're
in right now. But we tend to substitute
(27:10):
restoration for momentary relief, and no wonder we aren't
finding what we're looking for. Yes.
Yeah, it becomes a cheap substitute.
That's right. And again, a lot of this is we
weren't shown the way. No, but nobody explained these
things to us. Nobody warned us that you, you
are being conditioned by your cultural moment against the very
(27:34):
thing you need, which is a regular, intimate experience
with Jesus. But in that, in that John 15
passage about I'm the the vine, you're the branches.
To be a human being is to be needy.
It's OK that you're needy, right?
It's OK that you have these profound needs and longings for
(27:55):
love and security and meaning and adventure and beauty and
romance and all that. Like you're made for that.
The soul is healed and the soul is sustained through union with
Jesus. And this is such an important
thing. I, I want to say this because
many people, again, it's what you've been shown.
(28:17):
It's what you've been modeled. It's like if you go to church
and you read your Bible and you're going to be good and God
loves that and he'll be with youand he'll meet you in those
things. But those things are a means to
an end. They're not the thing itself.
They are meant to usher you backinto union, actual union and
(28:38):
communion with God, with your Father, with the Lord Jesus, and
with the Holy Spirit. Soul is made for this.
And the more that you experienceunion with God, that He, so
Christ now lives within you, so does your Papa.
You know, John 14. We will come to him and we will
make our home with you. OK.
(29:00):
So learning to experience and enjoy union with God, you will
actually not have to discipline yourself against scrolling and
binging and overeating or your sexual addictions or visiting
prostitutes or whatever it is you're doing.
(29:20):
You won't need, you won't need to do that because in Psalm 63,
which is another one of my favorite Psalms, Chad David says
some pretty wild things. He says, you satisfy me more
than a banquet could. I'm like, wait, what?
And then he says, your love is better than life.
(29:42):
Now he's not just being poetic. He's not just trying to, you
know, come up with a good sermon.
He is reporting an actual experience of what it's like to
be in union with God. And he's he's like, it's, it's
incredible. It's nourishing, It's
comforting, it it it is better than life.
(30:05):
Yeah, yeah. Well, the scriptures kind of
assume that all throughout Old and New Testament, that's the
deal. Yeah.
And that's not meant to be an exception for people.
You go, oh, well, you know, yeah, my, you know, my maybe my
pastor experiences that or, yeah, John Eldridge gets that or
whatever that is for everyone. Yeah.
That is the basic offer. And I just am trying to reframe
(30:28):
this from people. Your soul is meant for union
with God, union with Christ. Through Christ, and in the
practice of that union, you willexperience the healing of your
soul. You will.
And what I'm reminded of is thisconcept of the closer we get to
God, the more that we're in union with him, the more that
(30:51):
our desires become his desires. And you know, it protects
against what I, what I like to call white knuckle Christianity.
I didn't make it up. Now you know where it's just,
you know, you, you just got to try harder, you know, you just
got to be more disciplined. Just just get up earlier, you
know, in, in all of these thingsand check all the boxes.
And then you'll, you'll find what you're looking for.
(31:12):
And that described a lot of my adult life, if I'm honest.
It wasn't until my mid 20s that I really began to discover that,
to discover that there was a relationship, there was a union
that needed to happen. And it was in that union that I
no longer had to battle against myself.
That's that's where we find Pauldescribing that whole self
(31:32):
conflict in Romans. So and so I found myself in that
battle as well. But you know, the closer we grow
to Christ, the less we want to do the things that that aren't
his will. And I think that's really worth
mentioning because a lot of times there is that, especially
I'm down here in the Bible Belt,there really is that sense of,
OK, I go to church, I do the right things and therefore I'm
(31:55):
good. But one of the things I'm trying
to call people to is this deeperlife that's not meant for the
Super Saints. It's not meant for just the
pastors and those that are called to vocational ministry,
but it's called for every singlebeliever.
One of the one of the evangelistthat made quite a difference in
my life early on when I started to get a hold of this concept
said this, you can go as deep with God as you want to go.
(32:20):
The question is how deep do you want to go?
And I thought that was so meaningful because you know, a
lot of times we're the rate limiting step.
God has so much for us. That's right.
That that we're not tapping intoand that union, that union is
that I think the ticket and it'snot complicated.
All said Chad, I mean, Amen. Well, one of the things that
(32:42):
came to mind too, when you were mentioning this and you very
eloquently go through this in your book, is the fact that
there are only two kingdoms. And I kind of want to kind of
maybe head into that as we, we end our time together.
But there's, there's two kingdoms, there's God's Kingdom
and there's Satan's Kingdom. You know, CS Lewis, I believe,
basically tells us there's no square inch of this world that's
(33:05):
not claimed by either one of those.
But so many times we try to findthat happy medium, don't we?
We try to find that third way towhere you know, we, we won't
God, but we also want the good life as you describe it.
Or maybe let me paint a different picture according to
my experience. We want enough of God for
(33:27):
eternal life, but not so much that he changes our current
life. Can you, can you go into that a
little bit with us and just talkabout what that looks like?
The fact that there are only twokingdoms and the enemy has kind
of lied to us and told us that'snot the case.
But choosing union, choosing to had a daily experience with God
(33:49):
to to bring him into every part of your life is one of the ways
of kind of taking that back. Yeah, folks, again, this isn't
your fault. Most of you were not, you were
not given a, a, a good picture of reality.
Jesus is a very realistic guy. Most of the stuff he says is is
just reality. So when he says, I've come that
(34:11):
you may have life, the first thing he says, that's the
second-half of his sentence. The first part of the sentence
is the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy.
Now, that's pretty graphic, right?
Kill and destroy. And then in first Peter 5, when
it says, hey, heads up your enemy, the devil prowls around
like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
(34:37):
Ladies and gentlemen, you were born into a world at war.
You do not live in the happy little Shire of the Hobbits.
You live at the gates of Helms Deep.
You live in the Ayodrang Valley of Vietnam.
You you live in Afghanistan. Spiritually, this is where most
people end up feeling very hurt by God.
(34:59):
Why did you let that happen? How come you didn't answer those
prayers? I'm trying to find you, but my
childhood trauma just keeps showing up and taking me out and
wants to say friends. He understands that he offers,
he says, but you have got to take the fight seriously.
You are not living in a neutral world.
(35:20):
You are living in a world that every day is filled with the
Kingdom of darkness trying to destroy people, including you,
your loved ones, your work, yourdreams, your marriage, your
sexuality, anywhere they can getin, any angle they can get in.
This is not scary. This is such a relief to go, oh,
(35:43):
wait a second. I mean, all that negative stuff
that goes on in my head, that's not just me exactly, friends.
That's not just you. And all that hard stuff that
happens every single time our family tries to take a vacation.
That's not just us, that's right, that's not just you.
If you will take your situation seriously, this will this will
(36:07):
draw you into intimacy with Christ.
You go, how do I pray? What do I do?
Show me the way. Like now you realize, oh, I need
a captain. I need, I need a king and I I
need a bodyguard. Well, that's Psalm 91.
He will command his angels concerning you and.
That's the context of that Psalm.
It's in the middle of a war. Psalm 91 takes place in the
(36:29):
midst of war, as does Psalm 23, as does the entire Bible.
OK, this is where most people are dangerously naive.
They just don't want to hear it.They don't want to deal with it.
But if you will begin, you just take your thought life and just
go. Wait a second.
All this shame I live with all this self condemnation, that's
(36:51):
not just me. Nope, no, I, I bet 90% of it
isn't you. Well, then what do I do about
that? Now we can help you, right?
First off, the power of breakingagreements with Satan's lies.
When he comes in and he says your marriage isn't worth it,
you say that's a lie, I break agreements with that.
When he comes in and says nobodyreally likes you, you say no, I
(37:14):
break agreements with that, I reject that.
Right. And and on and on.
Like you can win this fight and your heart just goes, Oh my
goodness, I feel so much better because I'm taking reality
seriously. Well, and while the enemy is
spiritual, warfare is real. And you know, for time's sake we
won't go into that. But I think that needs to be
(37:35):
said. That's not just something people
make up to make it more dramaticthan it needs to be.
No, it's real. But here's the thing, we're on
the winning side. If you find yourself in Christ,
you find yourself having the potential to live in victory
over the enemy. And so it's not scary.
I love how you said that. You know, you describe this
scene where a lot of us would gasp and say, oh, no, I can't
(37:58):
believe we find ourselves in this situation.
But it doesn't have to be scary.And that's what's so important
about the message that you're putting out there.
There is hope, friends. There is hope.
And his name is Jesus. And if we can, if we can reclaim
what's rightfully ours, if we can pause and let let the Spirit
of God restore us and make communion with God not something
(38:23):
that we shoot for once a week onSundays, but something that is
very much a part of every part of our lives, then I'm convinced
that's the John 1010 B that he'stalking about.
That's. Right, you may have life and
have it abundantly. I've never done this before,
John, but I would love, as we finish our time together, would
(38:44):
you offer a prayer for us? There's a lot of people hurting
right now. There's a lot of people that are
struggling. There's a lot of people that may
have, you know, they may have made a decision for Christ years
ago and you know, they're just, it's not working out the way
that they had hoped or maybe they haven't quite made that
decision yet. But I'd love if you would just
OfferUp a prayer for us as we end our time together and invite
(39:07):
Christ into this conversation that's going to be spreading on
the Airways before long, and invite Him to do what only He
can do. Folks, let's pray together.
I'm going to pray in the first person, but this is you and God,
OK? And here's what we pray.
Jesus, I need this. I need a much deeper experience
of you. I need a much deeper union.
(39:30):
I see it. I get it.
I'm sorry. Help me.
Help me. Help me out of the madness.
Help me out of the distraction, come into my heartache, come
into my need for comfort and Hiscare.
I need your help, Jesus. I want this life with you.
(39:53):
And so I turn towards you right now.
I open my heart to you and I say, Jesus, come in, come in.
Let us, let us commune in life together.
I pray for union with you, Lord.I pray for oneness.
In the name of God our Father and of the Lord Jesus, and with
(40:13):
the help of the Holy Spirit, Amen.
Amen. Thank you brother.
I just want to close with this. If your heart is uneasy and if
you're feeling burdened in life,I invite you to give it a try.
Give, give what we're talking about a try.
And if you do it wholeheartedly,Scripture tells us if you seek
(40:35):
God with your whole heart, then you will find Him.
And then I'll add to that, you will find what your heart's been
looking for. John, brother, I can't thank you
enough for joining me today. What a privilege this has been.
Yeah, what a delight. Yeah, this is such a good
conversation. Can you tell our listeners as we
close where to find out more about you?
(40:55):
I'm going to post links in the show notes, of course, but what
you're up to these days and the latest in the comings and goings
of John Eldridge. Yeah, so we have an organization
called Wild at Heart. We have a podcast called Wild at
Heart, and you can get on our website at wild@heart.org.
And we have this beautiful thingcalled the One Minute Pause app.
(41:16):
It's free and you can get it at the App Store, The One Minute
Pause. And it will lead you into the
life we're talking about becauseit will help you each day.
Pause, let it go, and find the union with Jesus.
Love it, love it. I'll add those links brother.
Thank you my friend. Appreciate you joining me.
God bless you. God bless you.
(41:38):
Thank you for listening to the Rev RX Podcast.
We hope you enjoyed what you heard today and if so, we'd love
it if you would hit that subscribe button so that you'll
never miss a new episode from us.
Also, feel free to leave us reviews and comments as we'd
love to hear from you. Be blessed and be the very best
you.
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