June 7, 2024 • 43 mins
Welcome to The Revenue RoomTM, where we explore the critical roles that drive business growth and success. Hosted by industry expert Heather Holst-Knudsen, each episode explores the multifaceted world of revenue generation, from marketing and sales to customer success and strategic partnerships.
In this episode, Heather sits down with Amy Roman, CEO of Amplify GTM, to discuss the intricacies of driving sustainable revenue growth in B2B environments. With her rich background spanning consumer packaged goods to IT-managed services, Amy brings a wealth of knowledge and actionable insights.
Whether you're a business leader aiming to scale your organization, a sales professional seeking to enhance your skills, or simply someone interested in the dynamics of revenue generation, this discussion is filled with practical advice to help you align your teams and strategies for optimal performance.
Heather and Amy discuss:
- Balancing Art and Science in Revenue Growth: Combining data utilization with gut instincts.
- Customer Pain Points and Challenges: Techniques for understanding and addressing customer pain points.
- Data Activation Challenges: Overcoming obstacles in understanding and actioning data for revenue growth.
- Aligning Roles and KPIs: Why you need to align critical roles with KPIs.
- Sales and Marketing Alignment: Addressing common misalignments between these departments.
- Customer Centricity: The role of customer success and service delivery based on organization size.
- The Role of a Chief Revenue Officer (CRO): Skills, experience, and responsibilities for success
- Maximizing Customer Spend: Importance of cross-selling and upselling within account management teams.
Tune in to gain valuable perspectives and actionable tips that will empower you to unlock your company's full potential and stay ahead in the competitive market.
Don't miss this episode if you are looking to refine your go-to-market strategy, enhance team alignment, and drive sustainable revenue growth. Subscribe to our channel on h2klabs.com for more insights and upcoming episodes.
ATTEND REVVEDUP 2025
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ABOUT H2K LABS
H2K Labs is a tech-enabled value creation specialist that helps media, data/information, event, and marketplace businesses accelerate revenue, drive profitability, and fuel enterprise value using data, digital, and AI. We host The Revenue Room™ Podcast, curate Revenue Room™ Connect, a professional network for CEO and their revenue-critical C-Suite teams, and produce events including RevvedUP 2025. For more information, please visit https://www.h2klabs.com
To join Revenue Room™ Connect, please visit https://info.h2klabs.com/revenue-room-connect-information-request
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Revenue Room,presented by H2K Labs.
Here's your host, HeatherHolst-Knudsen.
Hi, I'm Heather Holtz Knudsen.
I am the CEO of H2K Labs.
We are a tech enabled valuecreation specialist focused on
multi sided business models.
(00:21):
I'm super excited today towelcome Amy Roman, who is the
CEO of Amplify GTM.
Amy, welcome.
Thank you so much, Heather.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Why don't you tell everyoneabout your background, which I
find fascinating in all of theindustries that you've worked
in, especially on the GTM side.
Speaker 6 (00:40):
Oh, thank you.
It's been a long and circuitousjourney, longer than I'd like to
admit, but I always like tostart out by telling people, and
it usually solicits a chuckle,that I was president of my high
school marketing club.
So that definitely speaks to mycool factor or lack thereof in
high school.
And so I've honestly wanted tobe in business and marketing and
(01:03):
anything on the front side ofthe business for as long as I
can remember.
And I started out at large.
consumer packaged goodscompanies working in a variety
of sales and marketing rolesthroughout.
So at this point I've sold ormarketed everything from
batteries to hair color toallergy and antifungal medicine.
Wow.
(01:23):
Yeah, it was very interesting.
And from there, about 10 yearsago, I was in a networking group
because I was running a brandingand design agency, and I met a
CEO of an IT managed servicesprovider, and that's a companies
that manage the ITinfrastructure and systems of
their clients.
And so he came to me with thisproblem and he said, I have this
(01:44):
issue.
I have an amazing company.
The team is amazing.
Our operations and our processesare really strong.
Our customers are loyal, but wehaven't been able to generate
sustained revenue growth inabout five or six years.
And so I started working withthem.
I took over sales.
I took over marketing.
And during that time, we grewthe company 40 percent in
(02:06):
annualized MRR.
We had double digit EBITDAgrowth, and we eventually sold
the company two years later.
And an estimated 50 percentincrease in valuation.
And that is basically how I gotinto technology, how I became a
CRO, which had been a lot a longterm goal of mine and how I
wound up founding my owncompany.
(02:28):
So at this point I'm runningAmplify GTM.
We help companies do exactlythat to identify and implement
the fastest, most sustainablepaths to sustained revenue
growth.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
One, what a fascinating journey, and I
always say luck is where chancemeets opportunity but I have two
questions, actually, becauseit's interesting.
You said your goal was to be aCRO, which is a relatively new
title, and there's a lot ofcontroversy lately about this
title and what it means.
What does it mean to you?
Speaker 6 (03:00):
That's funny because I don't, I'm not sure exactly
what part of the controversyyou're referring to, but I've
always been very passionateabout this because the way I
look at it, I want to deliverresults.
I want to be responsible formoney in the door.
That to me is a role that has adefined and important seat at
(03:22):
the table.
And that was always my goal.
My goal was to have a seat atthe table where key decisions
are made.
And so the way I look at it is Iactually consider chief revenue
officer a critical role becausethe entire front end of your
business.
Needs to be working together.
And I believe that a true chiefrevenue officer is in charge of
outside sales, inside sales andmarketing.
(03:45):
And the reason for that is ifyou want a company that's
achieving a lot of the growthrates that companies are looking
to achieve today, especiallythe, a lot of the ones that I
work with that are privateequity backed, they're looking
for 15 percent category growth,20 percent category growth
organically.
A lot of the times you need tohave that entire ecosystem.
(04:05):
working together.
And the other thing that'simportant about that too is if
you're looking at it, it's alsothe piece at which you want to
generate growth.
If you're looking at short termgrowth you definitely want to
look at mining your currentcustomer base.
If you have the ability for thelong term growth, that's where
you're going to build more ofthat long term ecosystem, which
to really get up and running,depending on where your starting
(04:26):
point is a nine to 12 monthprocess.
So whenever I look at that role,I want, purview over all three
of those things because it givesme the best chance at achieving
the goals.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
You hit on one part of the controversy, which is the
CRO.
If people truly understand whata chief revenue officer is, it's
not a glorified VP of sales.
It's that owning the marketingpart.
It's the whole value chain ofacquiring, retaining, growing,
and keeping the customer healthyand happy or the revenue healthy
(05:01):
and the customer happy.
It's the whole value chain.
So that's part one.
The second says, oh they'llpromote someone to a CRO, but
yet they don't give them.
The marketing and the customersuccess, right?
It really has.
I think the second controversy,which I'm very heated about
actually is the marketing, likea marketing per a person who's
went only at marketing, whonever carried the bag.
(05:24):
There's this discussion of howthey should like, Oh, they'll be
much better in the CRO role.
And I'm like, No way, Jose.
Absolutely not.
If you have not been told no 90percent of the time when you
picked up the phone or emailsunanswered or gone eight months
trying to sell an enterprisedeal, in the seven figures only
(05:46):
to have you lose to a competitorat the last minute.
If you have not suffered that,there's no way you could be a
CRO.
One, because the sales side,which is a huge part of it,
isn't going to respect you.
Um, but to you, it's, I findlike sales is the most
misunderstood in terms of whatyou go through every single day.
(06:08):
And unless you understand,because you walked the walk,
it's a hard thing to go manageand upskill and coach and like
collaborate and deal storm withthe revenue acquirers.
Speaker 6 (06:20):
Yes.
And you can have the bestmarketing out there.
And this is the part.
So I originally wanted to be aCMO.
And I thought to myself, mygosh, when I reached that is the
ultimate for me.
And then I realized that I owneda certain part of that revenue
process.
And then my ownership was goneand everything that happened
(06:42):
between when that was handed tosales and when money got in the
door was outside of my controlso I could generate thousands of
MQL and you can argue thequality of those at any given
time and what qualifies as anMQL.
That's another controversy thatand a challenge that I see a
lot.
But if you don't have, if you'renot able to control what happens
(07:03):
from there.
The marketing is useless.
It's that unless it actuallyconverts and gets money in the
door.
It's a lot of hullabaloo fornothing.
And so the other thing aboutsales, and I couldn't agree more
with your point of view onsales.
Sales is about doing the hardwork.
Day in and day out.
(07:25):
And this is something that I sayespecially if in your, if you're
in sales, you've got to take theview of a running back, not a
wide receiver.
The running back is getting theball multiple times.
They're going for inches and acouple of feet.
The wide receiver is getting theball one once or twice, and
they're going for the big play.
And so a salesperson has to goin and do the hard work every
(07:45):
single day in and day out.
The other thing that I say is,I've done sales.
I've done marketing.
I've done customer success.
I've led all of those teams.
I'm a horrible salesperson.
I don't like to sell.
I find it uncomfortable.
But I'm a great consultant.
And so the thing that I I'lltell my sales teams, two
(08:07):
different things.
The first thing is never sellconsult.
So I want you, talking to thatcustomer, understanding their
pain points and challenges, andthen thinking about how we can
address those pains, points andchallenges.
That's your number one job.
You do that well, you're goingto make the sale eventually.
And the other thing I tell themis team of sharks always
swimming.
(08:27):
And people who've worked with mewill literally say, yeah, she
does say that because It's youhave to go in, you do something
good that day.
What's the next thing that youhave to do, because it's a
relentless job of doing theright activities day in and day
out.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Oh, it's, I always used to tell, I would tell my
sales team, two things.
One there's no such thing ashope in, in, in every, anywhere
in my business.
There's no hope is for losers.
And what is what'd you do for metoday?
I hate to say it, it's but, younever, a really great
salesperson doesn't sit on whatthey did last week or last
month.
It's, they know that if, even ifI sold a million dollars last
(09:05):
month, like I got to keep doingit.
Like it's consistency and, theperseverance and the grit.
And it's the leading activities.
Speaker 6 (09:14):
It's making sure, okay, you close the sale, but
then are you doing the leadingactivities so that you're
closing the next sale in a weekor a month or whatever it is
from now.
The people who are really goodat it have a combination of
being very good with people inthat consultative sale, having
the acumen on the product.
And then the discipline and thedetermination to do those
(09:34):
activities on a daily basis.
So when you see someone like asalesperson who's killing it,
they're bringing those threethings to the table and they are
not easy to do to combine intoone person.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
And I'm going to actually disagree that You're a
terrible salesperson becauseactually you're a great
salesperson.
You're a great consultant butyou're also a great networker
and we're going to talk aboutnetworking later, but it's in
two ways.
One is in a topic that you and Iare both very passionate about,
which is.
Customer centricity but also theidea, how community plays into
(10:05):
that and building andnetworking.
So let's move into a topic thatyou and I are going to be
talking about on June 18th atthe Yale club in New York city,
which is becoming customerobsessed in times of accelerated
change.
And.
There is a caveat to that of howwe're looking at it is because
(10:26):
we like to double down oncomplexity over here at H2K
Labs, which is the multi sidedbusiness model.
And there are many definitionsof a multi sided business model
and I have mine, but I'd like tohear what in your, when I say
that, what does it mean to you?
Speaker 6 (10:43):
It's funny because when we were talking about doing
this before I started reallythinking about it and thinking
about what does it mean to metoday, and it's really difficult
for me, for example, to come upwith a linear business model on
this day and age.
If you're a company and you'vegot Any type of channel strategy
(11:06):
or partnership strategy.
You basically that's of anysignificance.
You basically have a multi sidedbusiness model.
So I I think of the days wherelinear business models were
present, so you are, let's sayyou're a manufacturing company
and you make a product and yousell that product directly to
the customer.
Like we look back at that nowand it's Oh man, if that was all
(11:28):
we had to manage, that's doable.
It's yeah I'm up for that.
But very few, if any companies,you'll probably come up with an
example that I haven't thoughtof, but very few companies
operate like that anymore.
If they're of any size,basically.
Any company that has, let's saya director of channel
partnerships and above you'remulti sided.
(11:48):
So that means that you aredealing with two separate and
distinct user groups, if notmore than that, and that you
have to interconnect and providevalue to each of those user
groups in order to generate.
The overall sustained success ofthe organization.
(12:08):
So an example would be, let'stake like I was talking before
about it managed serviceproviders.
You've got your vendor partnersand you've got your customers.
And basically what you'reserving as is a conduit between
those two.
You're taking the vendors.
software and their technologyand you're putting it together
(12:28):
in the right way to protect thatcustomer's business or to make
that customer's business moreefficient to enhance
communication but you don't havethe luxury of just servicing the
customer.
Or just dealing with the vendor.
You have to be able to gobetween both of those
communities and bring themtogether in a way that delivers
(12:51):
increased and enhanced value.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
And I agree.
And actually, I just Was like,we need a scale of multi sided
like a heat map of cause thatwas a good example.
Because you have to have adifferent go to market strategy
to get those vendors in yourpartners.
You have to serve them.
They have to have their ownmarketing materials.
They have their own salesecosystem because they are
(13:14):
critical and important to yourrevenue.
But you also on the flip sidestill have, if many people, many
companies have both a channeland a direct strategy, you have
a sales team and marketing forthem, that's, there's a lot of
data and complexity and systemsbeing used there.
The difference between thatlevel of multi sided and I
agree, it's a hundred percentmulti sided and where I go often
(13:37):
in my sandbox, which is eventsand media and digital
information is that.
There's no concrete productsbeing sold, like software or
manufacturing parts, okay?
And the audience side the buyerseller, the audience side has a
very different need, which isinformation and decision support
(14:02):
tools to help me do my jobbetter, faster, with less risk,
make me smarter help me savemoney, help me understand what
to buy from a softwaretechnology standpoint with, and
I can't make a mistake becausemy job depends on it type of
content and tools.
That's a huge product rightthere.
And it's delivered across all ofthese different channels, right?
(14:24):
Websites, events, social media,video podcasts to the other side
of the fence, which are thesuppliers who want to reach
those audience members.
They want to make sure they're.
Yes.
They want to know that thecontent and the tools and
everything is relevant, butthey're assuming you're doing
that.
If you have the right audience,they want to get to the audience
(14:45):
and you have to create thissymbiotic journey for both where
the buy side doesn't feeloverwhelmed by the sell side and
the sell side doesn't feelunderwhelmed by the buy side.
So it's serving both thesesegments, creating a solution
set for each of them, trackingthe engagement on each of them,
(15:08):
which is different.
And somehow they meet in themiddle and understanding how
that part works.
It's to me, that's reallycomplex.
That really lends itself to ahuge amount of complexity when
it comes to customer centricity.
Speaker 6 (15:21):
Yes.
It's funny because as we'retalking about the complexity, I
wrote down as you were speakingbetter, faster, less risk.
So when you were talking aboutwhat you're looking to deliver
in your industry, that theultimate goal is to help these
businesses operate better,faster, less risk, take
something like it completelydifferent industry.
(15:43):
The ultimate goal is.
Exactly the same.
And when you talked about theexecutives want to make sure
that they're not making amistake, that's exactly the same
over in a completely separateindustry.
So what it made me think aboutis we're talking about a lot of
complexity in order to deliver avery Simple, or seemingly simple
(16:07):
outcome, which is running thebusiness well, and that, that
carries across very differentindustries, but I look at even
as we're thinking about thingslike these vendor partners, for
example, like if you want to bea prominent person in their
portfolio, because you want todo.
Co marketing with them.
(16:28):
A lot of times a way to grow acompany, like if I'm putting
together a marketing program,I'm always looking at inbound
marketing.
I'm looking at field marketing,which is basically events.
And I'm looking at partnerships.
One of the key ways to scalegrowth is by having
partnerships.
And so that's another way.
So You're looking to bring inthese partners or these vendor
(16:48):
partners who are not only goingto, you're not only going to
take their service and now applyit to your customers, but
they're also going to serve aslead generators.
And sometimes you might dothings where you start to white
label products and all that typeof thing.
And that is all by being aprominent player in the
industry, not only with yourcustomers, but also with the
(17:08):
other players that are there.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Okay.
Let's go to the next questionthen.
Now that we've.
We've had this really awesome,broad definition of multi sided,
and it sounds like mostbusinesses are if they're
healthy and growing and scaling.
And that is the alignment ofrevenue critical roles, right?
In the business.
And we touched a little bit uponit when we were talking about
(17:30):
the role of the CRO, but in yourmind, when you're running your
GTM strategy for clients and yougo and walk in.
What is the first thing you dowhen you look at the
organization?
Speaker 6 (17:45):
Ideally, the first thing that I do is I do an
overall assessment.
So one of the things that peoplewill ask me is what do you do?
And I tell them it's Differentevery single time.
So when I go into anorganization and I'm evaluating,
okay, what is it that you'redoing and what is it that you
should be doing more of less ofor, stop or start, I go into the
(18:07):
organization and I ask a bunchof questions.
And what I'm looking for isactually not, I'm less focused
on, okay, stop doing this,although that will come, but I'm
more looking for what I calllike the nuggets of gold.
Every organization has hiddenstrengths and opportunities that
they're doing really well.
(18:29):
And a lot of times the bestthing that you can do to enhance
your revenue growth is to lookat your own organization, what
is working well, and then doubledown on it.
So one of the first things thatI'll do is.
Go back to strategy.
So people will come to me andthey'll be like we're not
generating.
And there's a variety of issues.
We're not generating enoughleads.
(18:49):
The leads aren't convertingthrough the funnel.
I can't hire a salesperson whosells as successfully as I do.
That's usually what, like afounder issue we can't figure
out marketing.
And so what happens is they'llcome and it's a tactical issue,
but actually their issue is fivesteps back.
In terms of strategy.
So if I had a dime a dozen forevery person who came to me and
(19:14):
where sales has one idea of whothe ideal customer is, like we
call it the ICP, the idealcustomer profile and marketing
has a different idea of who theideal customer is.
So this is a really good one.
I spoke to one company and Theywere talking about how they're
going after enterpriseprospects.
(19:34):
So this means these are, this iswhale hunting, you've got a long
sales cycle, you've got a, likean account based strategy
because there's only so many ofthem, that type of a thing.
And then they also mentionedthat marketing was delivering
hundreds of MQLs per monthagainst which they weren't able
(19:57):
to convert, because I can tellyou right now, if you're
generating, in the high hundredsof MQLs, they're not enterprise
MQLs.
There's just not enough of themout there.
So what happened was youliterally had sales, he was
going after one customer andthis almost seems like it seems
crazy, right?
Like when we look at itconceptually, but the thing is
(20:20):
you get busy and running thebusiness.
If there's not goodcommunication between the
departments.
So the sales is going after onecustomer and marketing is going
after a completely differentcustomer.
And then you think about.
The inequity between those twoand the waste of time and
resources and money that'shappening in that funnel.
(20:41):
And so one of the first thingsthat I'll do is I'll do the
assessment.
I'll ask the list of questions.
I'll hear where the pain pointsand challenges are.
And then I back it up and I say,we have to all agree on
strategy.
Who are we going after?
Who is the right customer tobring in and then getting really
focused on that.
I don't want to have, if you'relooking at your ideal customer
(21:03):
profile, you want to identifymaybe three industry verticals.
If you're going to have avertical based strategy and you
want to go after those reallyheavy because you want to speak
to them being customer centric.
You want to speak to them intheir language.
And then, oh, by the way, whenyou're able to go to really
define that and go after them itgives you, you're bringing in
(21:26):
customers who are most likely tobenefit her.
They're most likely to convert.
Because your messagingresonates, they're also going to
benefit from your product orservice because they they have
the need that's there.
And then therefore, they're mostlikely to be satisfied and stay
loyal and deliver that lifetimecustomer value.
Yeah, able to standardizeproducts and services because
(21:50):
you're bringing in more of thesame that drives operational
efficiency and we all knowoperational efficiency drives
profitability.
So you back up and it's you talkto someone and you're like we
need to define the idealcustomer profile and they're
like, Oh, y'all like marketingcrap, but it's not.
It's actually really importantbecause you get that right and
you can build a business behindit.
(22:12):
That's literally more profitablethan the competition.
You know, it's interesting.
The media and events world onesales to me has always taken a
backseat to audience in terms ofthe effort, the investments, the
technology, and the quoteunquote seat at the table.
they need the revenue.
They're, it's a revenue ledorganization, but in terms of
the budget and the support andthe thought process behind the
(22:34):
strategy, it's been like, allright, then we look it's going
to keep it going.
Let's not mess around and changestuff.
The SaaS model where it's getthe users.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
But really what, if you really were to go lift the
hood up, you would find a lot ofunhealthy revenue, which is
there's high levels of churn.
They're like, Oh, we've got 65,70 percent retention.
You're like, and they're happyabout it.
And you're sitting there going,Oh my God, why are you happy
about that?
And the second part is it'srevenue at any cost.
(23:03):
And there are different levelsof profitability and scalability
and sustainability and thedifferent types of revenue
streams that they have.
I was just talking about thisyesterday with a very well known
CRO in a very large data andmedia company.
And it's yeah, the sales teamcomes in and they're all excited
because they sold a half amillion dollars of a custom
project.
I'm sitting here ready to bangmy head against the wall going,
(23:26):
Oh my God, that is, Notrenewable has a high rate of
failure or delay.
So we may not even get therevenue all in this because our
fiscal is July 1 and the cost toimplement it.
What's the margin?
But the sales person's happybecause they got the deal in and
they hit credit.
(23:46):
Quota and they have thecommission.
The client is probably happyactually to a degree because
they're getting this customproject, but it's not good for
the business.
And that is, that's wherestrategy has failed.
It has failed on incentives.
It has failed on educating thesalesperson.
(24:07):
It's failed for the company tobe even offering unprofitable
solutions, especially if you'restruggling to grow.
And a lot of these companies areseeing maybe 20 percent EBITDA.
It's been, hard times.
So I think there's a lot on theefficiency side that can be
brought over to, many of themarkets that I serve on the
media and event side.
(24:28):
But again, I think overall, it'slike we need to be selling
smarter, more efficiently andmore profitably It's all about
that,
Speaker 6 (24:34):
that efficient funnel that you were talking about.
Oh,
Speaker 2 (24:37):
right.
And I, I think I told you, Itrademarked this concept called
the revenue room.
And it was because I actuallywas consulting for a company
that had a revenue room.
And it was a literal room wherethey had marketing.
They had the marketing team whowas feeding them the leads,
right?
They were, they're responsiblefor the inbound leads.
You had the SDR team that wouldtake the leads.
(24:58):
Go qualify them forappointments, the AEs were there
doing all of the closing andthe, the sailing and the closing
and the customer success team isalso in there, They would have
them organized in pods.
Sales squads.
So focused on specific ICPs.
And I thought it was brilliant.
They weren't arguing with oneanother about whose fault it was
(25:18):
if pipeline wasn't hit, it'sbecause they were all aligned.
They were listening to oneanother.
They were literally teaming upfrom the beginning.
The act was, how did we acquireall the way to closing,
retaining and growing who theyended up fighting with a lot
though, was the audience and thecontent side, because they were
not in the But they weredelivering the
Speaker 6 (25:39):
one entity that wasn't in the room is the one
that had the and they're theones that are in the
communication and culture.
Right?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
It's the alignment.
It's the customer centricityorganizational alignment.
Like product needs a seat withinthat revenue construct and
frankly financed us too.
Do you, your position I wouldimagine is that because I
actually worked for a salescompany where the the customer
success team was under product,not under the CRO.
(26:07):
I always found that reallystrange, but I hear it's not.
Maybe it's changed today.
This was a couple years ago.
What's your position on that?
Speaker 6 (26:18):
And whether they should be under product or CRO.
I mean, if you're at anorganization that's big enough,
you may have a chief clientofficer who's going directly
into the CEO.
So taking that out of it becausethat, that makes sense.
Large organizations, each rolebecomes more specialized.
In most companies, I strugglewith the product thing.
(26:41):
I'm trying to figure out howthat would work.
I'm honestly trying to think ofa scenario in which that would
make sense.
And I'm not coming up with oneto me.
When I look at it and I've got acompany and let's say we have to
build the marketing model, thefirst place I'm going to go is
(27:02):
actually customer success, it'smy greatest opportunity for
short term revenue growth.
You've got an existing audience.
Who, is where you have anexisting relationship, assuming
you've got a good servicedelivery organization, you are
able to just tack stuff on tocurrent conversations.
(27:23):
So the way I always look at itis I say, current customer
revenue is going to drive yourshort to midterm revenue growth.
And then you've got yourmarketing, which if, unless
you're taking it, just ampingsomething up, that's already
working well, if you're buildingsomething that's going to take
your six to 12 months.
So you've got short term revenuegrowth.
You've got the inboundmarketing, which is going to be
(27:44):
your mid to long term revenuegrowth.
And you've got to have thecombination of the two in order
to really drive those 15, 20, 25percent category growth rates.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah.
I have two things.
I think one customer success isthe unsung hero because they are
so close to the customer andmarketing.
The top of funnel should beconnected with them all the
time.
What are the customers saying?
What's the feedback?
What are they like?
What do they don't like?
Yeah.
What are the themes that you'rehearing that we could apply to
the marketing to do ourmarketing better?
But you actually said somethingreally interesting and it may
(28:14):
answer a question I've beengrappling with.
So you said customer success andthen you said service delivery.
Is that a different role?
Speaker 6 (28:25):
It depends on the size of the organization.
But in my mind, so like I knowof companies where there's,
that's actually three differentroles.
So you've got the people who areSo I'm going to actually I'm
going to give an example companythat I was working with.
They had account managers, sothey had the operations people
(28:46):
who were doing more servicedelivery.
So I'm actually implementingwhat it is on a day to day
basis.
Then you've got the accountmanager.
Who was managing the overallhealth of the account.
They weren't necessarilyservicing the account on that,
like implementing things on aday to day basis, but they were
managing the account.
Now in this organization, theywanted the account managers
(29:10):
focused on management.
They didn't want the accountmanagers cross selling and
upselling.
And as we just talked about thatcross sell and upsell is a key
opportunity for revenue growth,especially in the short to
midterm.
When I was actually working withthem and they were looking at,
okay, why aren't we growing?
One of the issues they weren'tmaximizing current customer
growth.
(29:31):
So what we did is rather thanretrain the account management
team in this particularinstance, because it just wasn't
in their DNA.
We added the client developmentteam and that client development
team would partner with theaccount managers when there were
the opportunities, when therewas, we identified white space
for cross and upsell.
I think it's relatively fluidbecause there are instances
(29:55):
where I would have gone where Iwould go in there and I would
look at an account managementteam and there's actually an
instance now where I'm workingwith an account management team
and I would say we can have themcross an upsell.
There's no reason why To hireand train a whole separate group
of people on top of your accountmanagers.
We can drive enough growth withyour current team and that's
(30:16):
going to be more profitable.
But then there's other timeswhere you look at it and you
look at that team and it's okay,that's going to be an overhaul.
And so you might have someonewho's going to come in like a
few client development managersin order to partner with them
and drive it that way.
So I'd say there's, Multipleapproaches, all of which are
valid.
And it depends on where yourorganization is and the size of
(30:40):
your organization and where youare operationally and from a
maturity standpoint at any pointin time.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
And it sounds good.
Cause to me, the account managerwith the delivery and then a The
cross all upsell team that yousaid sounds like overkill, but
I'm thinking to myself, maybeit's because what's being sold
has such a high level of projectmanagement in it.
And having to connect a lot ofdifferent things to get the
(31:09):
project done or the deal done orTo the contract executed that
account manager is only focusedon that goes to the customer
delivery team or the servicedelivery team to X who executes.
They don't face the customerreally, even though they're they
are touching it at the end ofthe day, you brought in the this
upsell cross healthy.
Why wouldn't you go back to thenew business developers to
(31:31):
actually do the cross sellupsell?
Speaker 6 (31:34):
I like to keep new business developers developing
new business, so I wantsalespeople to be hunters.
The fact is that existingcustomer audience is always
going to be a richer audience.
Shouldn't say that, but it'salways going to be a less uphill
battle, because like we said,they're already engaged.
Assuming that you're servicingthem well, you know that there's
(31:55):
interest there, and so you'rejust saying hey.
We should be doing what we aredoing for you.
And this, which by the way, Iknow for a fact you don't have,
and I know how it's going tobenefit, hunters is a completely
different thing.
And what I found is that whenyou have salespeople who are
both hunting and farming, theyspend too much time farming and
not enough time hunting.
(32:15):
Also the comp between those twoneeds to be different.
You can't be making the sameamount of calm on a current
customer as you are on.
And that new prospect.
So if possible.
I like to separate those two.
I do have things where if it's areally large account, you might
have an exception where theoutside salesperson may stay
involved with it for a longerperiod of time than usual.
(32:38):
So there's always exceptions tothe rule, but if possible,
hunters hunt farmers farm.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Yeah.
I also will say, I think it alsodepends on again, if you're
selling enterprise and yourexpansion opportunity is
enormous.
So like we used to sell intoSAP.
You would never want to havemultiple people.
You needed someone to own SAPand inside and out across the
board, you might have a partnerin another region who, you know,
because, you want it to beregional and local and I think
(33:08):
the other part is if you're inmore mature markets where the
new business, which no one willever admit, but.
It's a little bit harder to get.
You would have a problem withthe sales team, but I agree the
comp wouldn't be enough for themto hunt
Speaker 6 (33:22):
in order to, and that's my point.
Why I was saying like,everything has to start with an
assessment because there is noone size fits all rule to
anything like and it's the waythat I always go into things.
I always say revenue growth is acombination of art and science
And I should say, and that'seven more so for profitable
(33:42):
revenue growth.
So it's going to be acombination.
I always feel that it's acombination of data and gut
feel.
I think you have to be able tobring both to the table and it's
why you hire people who areexperienced or just who have a
good sense of the customer andthat type of a thing.
I think that the best companiescombine both.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
No, absolutely.
I would say art, skill andscience and well, data.
But yeah, we're on the samepage, which leads me into my
next question, which is data.
Tell me how you help companiesunderstand and activate data as
fuel for revenue growth and,revenue growth, acquisition,
(34:24):
retention, expansion.
Speaker 6 (34:28):
So this is such a, it's such a big one, right?
And it's a place where I feellike a lot of companies
struggle.
So the thing that I say is Ihave never, I've written gosh,
so many annual marketing plans.
I started doing it in mytwenties, back at consumer
packaged goods companies.
And I've been doing itthroughout my career.
(34:49):
I've I have never executed a goto market plan exactly the way
I've written it ever.
And actually that's a good thingbecause the way that I look at
it is you write a go to marketplan based upon the information
you have at hand at that pointin time.
And I don't know of any of uswho's operating in an industry
that doesn't.
(35:10):
evolve where customer needsdon't evolve or where the
competition doesn't evolve.
So the way I look at it is youwrite this plan, you have this
overall strategy of how it isthat you're going to go to
market.
And then you have to look at itlike the same way I consider a
website.
It's a living, breathing entitythat continuously needs to be
monitored and evolved.
And so one of the key things onthat plan is you have to have.
(35:35):
Places where you're getting dataand ideally customer centric
data.
So looking at things likefeedback loops, looking at
things like scorecards and thenalso having the accountability
in the processes to make surethat those aren't just things
that are out there, that they'reactually being used, analyzed
(35:55):
and you're changing how you'redoing things based upon the
information.
That they're delivering.
And that last part, actually, Ishouldn't say that every aspect
of that can be challenging.
Getting the data, figuring outwhat data you want, getting the
data into scorecards that aremanageable and that's accurate.
(36:16):
And then also, and that in andof itself is often challenging.
And I know you have some reallygood insights there, but so then
you've got that part that'schallenging and you actually
want that to be the least.
Of your worries because you wantto spend the majority of your
time not figuring out is thisdata, right?
And how do we gather this data,but actioning the data and
(36:37):
saying, what is this?
What is this data telling uswhat is going well that we want
to do more of what is not goingwell, because then we want to
move resources away from it.
That should be ideally 75percent of your time.
So it should be like 25 percentand getting the data and making
sure the data is right.
75 percent on actioning thedata.
(36:57):
And a lot of times I find thatorganizations, it's really
difficult for them to reachthat, that it's reversed.
They're still in the get thedata is the data right type of a
thing versus the actioningportion.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Yeah for sure.
And I think with a multi sidedbusiness model, and especially
if you're dealing with lots ofdifferent ICP's for different
types of products you'reselling, the data is
overwhelming.
And so I, technically, if it's awell set up Customer centric
organization that hadunderstands that there should be
no time spent on getting thedata.
The data should be set up andflowing into dashboards and to
(37:32):
score cards and to, but there'sa big problem, so that's a
problem understanding the rightdata to look at because not all
data is good, right?
It's There's just what's theright data for now?
How is it being democratizedacross your revenue
organization?
So we're all looking at the samething, but maybe in slightly
(37:53):
different ways.
And I hear this one a lot.
Yeah, I've got a lot of data infront of me, but no one's been
training me or teaching me howto action it.
So all, that's why CEOs get sofrustrated with the cost of data
transformation and data projectsbecause they're, it's expensive.
But then they're like where'sthe ROI?
What were you expecting?
(38:15):
So you, Mr.
CEO or Mrs.
CEO or CEO of any label whatwere you expecting?
That's your big loss there.
What were you expecting data todo to your top and bottom line?
And how did you get your teamall aligned about that?
What were the milestones and howare you using data?
But let's bring it down to therevenue room is, are you
training and coaching?
(38:36):
All of you, every function tohave a business level data
science skillset.
What am I looking at?
What is it telling me?
What do I do with it next?
And what are the tools have Ibeen given to actually action
this into my workflow?
And then how are we measuring?
That
Speaker 4 (38:55):
yes,
Speaker 2 (38:56):
measuring the actioning.
So I know it's working.
That's the flow that needs to bepresent across the board.
And that's when you have thatgoing all of a sudden, you can
align your revenue criticalroles.
You can put KPIs on every singlefunction in the business that
(39:16):
touches the customer.
On revenue, it may be slightlydifferent.
And I'm not saying get rid ofthe KPIs that are about the
skills within your function, butif you wanna scale and grow your
company and get everyone workingon the same thing, they have to
be looking at the same data.
They have to be aligned andbeing incentivized, and they
have to know and be given thetools to action it so that they
can mitigate risk and captureopportunity faster and better.
Speaker 6 (39:40):
Yes.
And a lot of times it's alsohaving the communication
processes around that.
Yes.
Getting the right data,interpreting it, changing your
actions because of it, andmaking sure the right people are
in the room as you're doing eachof those things.
Yes.
Like we were talking about we'remarketing, we're saying I'm
delivering hundreds of MQLs amonth, and sales is convert any
(40:02):
of them.
So it's they both, they're likeI'm meeting my KPI.
Yeah.
And, but it's not doing businessand good.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
And then, again, this is the proverbial problem in
events and media, the KPIs foran event for the audience side
is butts in seat.
How many people did we get inthe room?
And they hit their KPI.
And oh, by the way, the NPSscore for the audience was
really high.
Yay, we did our job.
The sales side hit their quota.
(40:30):
But guess what?
All of the customers are PO'dbecause the audience, all those
numbers, didn't hit the qualitylevels they were expecting.
They didn't get meetings.
They didn't get enough leads.
And then you're sitting there,but audience is saying, hey, I
got, I hit my thing.
My job.
Too bad.
There's that's the misalignmentand that's not customer centric.
Speaker 6 (40:49):
Yeah.
That's a big thing.
I it's such a common, it'sanother reason why I'm big on
zeros because, marketing and belike sales doesn't convert.
And sales is always marketingdoesn't give us enough leads.
And in my teams, I don't everwant to hear either of those
phrases.
It's one combined team.
And, if any of those things ishappening, or you have an issue
(41:11):
with that's exactly why I'mthere.
I'm there to help facilitate andsolve those issues or to guide
the solution, the team solutionto those issues.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yeah unfortunately, we're running out of time.
So I think we have to scheduleanother podcast because there
are two more questions on here.
I feel like yeah, we can keep
Speaker 6 (41:26):
talking for a long time.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
But let's say next episode, we're going to be
talking about community and howimportant that is not only from
a media standpoint, butactually, if you are a
technology vendor, for example.
Listen, thank you so much.
It's been a pleasure having youon our the revenue room show.
And I'm looking forward to ournext not only our next podcast,
but on June 18th, you and I aregoing to be Co lecturers at our
(41:53):
first lunch lab, which will betaking place at the Yale Club on
June 18th from 12 to 4.
And we are going to take a deepdive into customer centricity in
a multi sided businessenvironment.
And that deep dive is not only anew construct we've built, which
is rapid learning for CEOs andtheir customers, Revenue
critical executive teams.
(42:13):
But it is going to include theeight capabilities of customer
centric organizations and aflywheel structure to go through
that from beginner, medium, andadvanced.
And then I call it advancedplus, which is multi sided
considerations.
We're going to talk about thesix principles that guide
leaders to move towards customercentricity.
(42:34):
And we're also actually going totalk about the.
Unspoken problem with customercentricity.
And those are the risks to thebusiness if you don't do it
right.
So looking forward to having youwith me on the 18th of June.
Speaker 6 (42:46):
Thank you so much.
It was wonderful to be a guestin the revenue room and
definitely looking forward tothe 18th.
We'll I think we're going to dosome great things with that
group in person.
Terrific.
Thanks so much, Amy.
Thank you.
Take care
Heather Holst-Knudsen (43:00):
You can find us@2klabs.com.
Thank you.
Thank you for listening to TheRevenue Room by H2K Labs.
Subscribe to our channel today.
Welcome to the Revenue Room,presented by H2K Labs.
Here's your host, HeatherHolst-Knudsen.
Hi, I'm Heather Holtz Knudsen.
I am the CEO of H2K Labs.
We are a tech enabled valuecreation specialist focused on
multi sided business models.
(00:21):
I'm super excited today towelcome Amy Roman, who is the
CEO of Amplify GTM.
Amy, welcome.
Thank you so much, Heather.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Why don't you tell everyoneabout your background, which I
find fascinating in all of theindustries that you've worked
in, especially on the GTM side.
Speaker 6 (00:40):
Oh, thank you.
It's been a long and circuitousjourney, longer than I'd like to
admit, but I always like tostart out by telling people, and
it usually solicits a chuckle,that I was president of my high
school marketing club.
So that definitely speaks to mycool factor or lack thereof in
high school.
And so I've honestly wanted tobe in business and marketing and
(01:03):
anything on the front side ofthe business for as long as I
can remember.
And I started out at large.
consumer packaged goodscompanies working in a variety
of sales and marketing rolesthroughout.
So at this point I've sold ormarketed everything from
batteries to hair color toallergy and antifungal medicine.
Wow.
(01:23):
Yeah, it was very interesting.
And from there, about 10 yearsago, I was in a networking group
because I was running a brandingand design agency, and I met a
CEO of an IT managed servicesprovider, and that's a companies
that manage the ITinfrastructure and systems of
their clients.
And so he came to me with thisproblem and he said, I have this
(01:44):
issue.
I have an amazing company.
The team is amazing.
Our operations and our processesare really strong.
Our customers are loyal, but wehaven't been able to generate
sustained revenue growth inabout five or six years.
And so I started working withthem.
I took over sales.
I took over marketing.
And during that time, we grewthe company 40 percent in
(02:06):
annualized MRR.
We had double digit EBITDAgrowth, and we eventually sold
the company two years later.
And an estimated 50 percentincrease in valuation.
And that is basically how I gotinto technology, how I became a
CRO, which had been a lot a longterm goal of mine and how I
wound up founding my owncompany.
(02:28):
So at this point I'm runningAmplify GTM.
We help companies do exactlythat to identify and implement
the fastest, most sustainablepaths to sustained revenue
growth.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
One, what a fascinating journey, and I
always say luck is where chancemeets opportunity but I have two
questions, actually, becauseit's interesting.
You said your goal was to be aCRO, which is a relatively new
title, and there's a lot ofcontroversy lately about this
title and what it means.
What does it mean to you?
Speaker 6 (03:00):
That's funny because I don't, I'm not sure exactly
what part of the controversyyou're referring to, but I've
always been very passionateabout this because the way I
look at it, I want to deliverresults.
I want to be responsible formoney in the door.
That to me is a role that has adefined and important seat at
(03:22):
the table.
And that was always my goal.
My goal was to have a seat atthe table where key decisions
are made.
And so the way I look at it is Iactually consider chief revenue
officer a critical role becausethe entire front end of your
business.
Needs to be working together.
And I believe that a true chiefrevenue officer is in charge of
outside sales, inside sales andmarketing.
(03:45):
And the reason for that is ifyou want a company that's
achieving a lot of the growthrates that companies are looking
to achieve today, especiallythe, a lot of the ones that I
work with that are privateequity backed, they're looking
for 15 percent category growth,20 percent category growth
organically.
A lot of the times you need tohave that entire ecosystem.
(04:05):
working together.
And the other thing that'simportant about that too is if
you're looking at it, it's alsothe piece at which you want to
generate growth.
If you're looking at short termgrowth you definitely want to
look at mining your currentcustomer base.
If you have the ability for thelong term growth, that's where
you're going to build more ofthat long term ecosystem, which
to really get up and running,depending on where your starting
(04:26):
point is a nine to 12 monthprocess.
So whenever I look at that role,I want, purview over all three
of those things because it givesme the best chance at achieving
the goals.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
You hit on one part of the controversy, which is the
CRO.
If people truly understand whata chief revenue officer is, it's
not a glorified VP of sales.
It's that owning the marketingpart.
It's the whole value chain ofacquiring, retaining, growing,
and keeping the customer healthyand happy or the revenue healthy
(05:01):
and the customer happy.
It's the whole value chain.
So that's part one.
The second says, oh they'llpromote someone to a CRO, but
yet they don't give them.
The marketing and the customersuccess, right?
It really has.
I think the second controversy,which I'm very heated about
actually is the marketing, likea marketing per a person who's
went only at marketing, whonever carried the bag.
(05:24):
There's this discussion of howthey should like, Oh, they'll be
much better in the CRO role.
And I'm like, No way, Jose.
Absolutely not.
If you have not been told no 90percent of the time when you
picked up the phone or emailsunanswered or gone eight months
trying to sell an enterprisedeal, in the seven figures only
(05:46):
to have you lose to a competitorat the last minute.
If you have not suffered that,there's no way you could be a
CRO.
One, because the sales side,which is a huge part of it,
isn't going to respect you.
Um, but to you, it's, I findlike sales is the most
misunderstood in terms of whatyou go through every single day.
(06:08):
And unless you understand,because you walked the walk,
it's a hard thing to go manageand upskill and coach and like
collaborate and deal storm withthe revenue acquirers.
Speaker 6 (06:20):
Yes.
And you can have the bestmarketing out there.
And this is the part.
So I originally wanted to be aCMO.
And I thought to myself, mygosh, when I reached that is the
ultimate for me.
And then I realized that I owneda certain part of that revenue
process.
And then my ownership was goneand everything that happened
(06:42):
between when that was handed tosales and when money got in the
door was outside of my controlso I could generate thousands of
MQL and you can argue thequality of those at any given
time and what qualifies as anMQL.
That's another controversy thatand a challenge that I see a
lot.
But if you don't have, if you'renot able to control what happens
(07:03):
from there.
The marketing is useless.
It's that unless it actuallyconverts and gets money in the
door.
It's a lot of hullabaloo fornothing.
And so the other thing aboutsales, and I couldn't agree more
with your point of view onsales.
Sales is about doing the hardwork.
Day in and day out.
(07:25):
And this is something that I sayespecially if in your, if you're
in sales, you've got to take theview of a running back, not a
wide receiver.
The running back is getting theball multiple times.
They're going for inches and acouple of feet.
The wide receiver is getting theball one once or twice, and
they're going for the big play.
And so a salesperson has to goin and do the hard work every
(07:45):
single day in and day out.
The other thing that I say is,I've done sales.
I've done marketing.
I've done customer success.
I've led all of those teams.
I'm a horrible salesperson.
I don't like to sell.
I find it uncomfortable.
But I'm a great consultant.
And so the thing that I I'lltell my sales teams, two
(08:07):
different things.
The first thing is never sellconsult.
So I want you, talking to thatcustomer, understanding their
pain points and challenges, andthen thinking about how we can
address those pains, points andchallenges.
That's your number one job.
You do that well, you're goingto make the sale eventually.
And the other thing I tell themis team of sharks always
swimming.
(08:27):
And people who've worked with mewill literally say, yeah, she
does say that because It's youhave to go in, you do something
good that day.
What's the next thing that youhave to do, because it's a
relentless job of doing theright activities day in and day
out.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Oh, it's, I always used to tell, I would tell my
sales team, two things.
One there's no such thing ashope in, in, in every, anywhere
in my business.
There's no hope is for losers.
And what is what'd you do for metoday?
I hate to say it, it's but, younever, a really great
salesperson doesn't sit on whatthey did last week or last
month.
It's, they know that if, even ifI sold a million dollars last
(09:05):
month, like I got to keep doingit.
Like it's consistency and, theperseverance and the grit.
And it's the leading activities.
Speaker 6 (09:14):
It's making sure, okay, you close the sale, but
then are you doing the leadingactivities so that you're
closing the next sale in a weekor a month or whatever it is
from now.
The people who are really goodat it have a combination of
being very good with people inthat consultative sale, having
the acumen on the product.
And then the discipline and thedetermination to do those
(09:34):
activities on a daily basis.
So when you see someone like asalesperson who's killing it,
they're bringing those threethings to the table and they are
not easy to do to combine intoone person.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
And I'm going to actually disagree that You're a
terrible salesperson becauseactually you're a great
salesperson.
You're a great consultant butyou're also a great networker
and we're going to talk aboutnetworking later, but it's in
two ways.
One is in a topic that you and Iare both very passionate about,
which is.
Customer centricity but also theidea, how community plays into
(10:05):
that and building andnetworking.
So let's move into a topic thatyou and I are going to be
talking about on June 18th atthe Yale club in New York city,
which is becoming customerobsessed in times of accelerated
change.
And.
There is a caveat to that of howwe're looking at it is because
(10:26):
we like to double down oncomplexity over here at H2K
Labs, which is the multi sidedbusiness model.
And there are many definitionsof a multi sided business model
and I have mine, but I'd like tohear what in your, when I say
that, what does it mean to you?
Speaker 6 (10:43):
It's funny because when we were talking about doing
this before I started reallythinking about it and thinking
about what does it mean to metoday, and it's really difficult
for me, for example, to come upwith a linear business model on
this day and age.
If you're a company and you'vegot Any type of channel strategy
(11:06):
or partnership strategy.
You basically that's of anysignificance.
You basically have a multi sidedbusiness model.
So I I think of the days wherelinear business models were
present, so you are, let's sayyou're a manufacturing company
and you make a product and yousell that product directly to
the customer.
Like we look back at that nowand it's Oh man, if that was all
(11:28):
we had to manage, that's doable.
It's yeah I'm up for that.
But very few, if any companies,you'll probably come up with an
example that I haven't thoughtof, but very few companies
operate like that anymore.
If they're of any size,basically.
Any company that has, let's saya director of channel
partnerships and above you'remulti sided.
(11:48):
So that means that you aredealing with two separate and
distinct user groups, if notmore than that, and that you
have to interconnect and providevalue to each of those user
groups in order to generate.
The overall sustained success ofthe organization.
(12:08):
So an example would be, let'stake like I was talking before
about it managed serviceproviders.
You've got your vendor partnersand you've got your customers.
And basically what you'reserving as is a conduit between
those two.
You're taking the vendors.
software and their technologyand you're putting it together
(12:28):
in the right way to protect thatcustomer's business or to make
that customer's business moreefficient to enhance
communication but you don't havethe luxury of just servicing the
customer.
Or just dealing with the vendor.
You have to be able to gobetween both of those
communities and bring themtogether in a way that delivers
(12:51):
increased and enhanced value.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
And I agree.
And actually, I just Was like,we need a scale of multi sided
like a heat map of cause thatwas a good example.
Because you have to have adifferent go to market strategy
to get those vendors in yourpartners.
You have to serve them.
They have to have their ownmarketing materials.
They have their own salesecosystem because they are
(13:14):
critical and important to yourrevenue.
But you also on the flip sidestill have, if many people, many
companies have both a channeland a direct strategy, you have
a sales team and marketing forthem, that's, there's a lot of
data and complexity and systemsbeing used there.
The difference between thatlevel of multi sided and I
agree, it's a hundred percentmulti sided and where I go often
(13:37):
in my sandbox, which is eventsand media and digital
information is that.
There's no concrete productsbeing sold, like software or
manufacturing parts, okay?
And the audience side the buyerseller, the audience side has a
very different need, which isinformation and decision support
(14:02):
tools to help me do my jobbetter, faster, with less risk,
make me smarter help me savemoney, help me understand what
to buy from a softwaretechnology standpoint with, and
I can't make a mistake becausemy job depends on it type of
content and tools.
That's a huge product rightthere.
And it's delivered across all ofthese different channels, right?
(14:24):
Websites, events, social media,video podcasts to the other side
of the fence, which are thesuppliers who want to reach
those audience members.
They want to make sure they're.
Yes.
They want to know that thecontent and the tools and
everything is relevant, butthey're assuming you're doing
that.
If you have the right audience,they want to get to the audience
(14:45):
and you have to create thissymbiotic journey for both where
the buy side doesn't feeloverwhelmed by the sell side and
the sell side doesn't feelunderwhelmed by the buy side.
So it's serving both thesesegments, creating a solution
set for each of them, trackingthe engagement on each of them,
(15:08):
which is different.
And somehow they meet in themiddle and understanding how
that part works.
It's to me, that's reallycomplex.
That really lends itself to ahuge amount of complexity when
it comes to customer centricity.
Speaker 6 (15:21):
Yes.
It's funny because as we'retalking about the complexity, I
wrote down as you were speakingbetter, faster, less risk.
So when you were talking aboutwhat you're looking to deliver
in your industry, that theultimate goal is to help these
businesses operate better,faster, less risk, take
something like it completelydifferent industry.
(15:43):
The ultimate goal is.
Exactly the same.
And when you talked about theexecutives want to make sure
that they're not making amistake, that's exactly the same
over in a completely separateindustry.
So what it made me think aboutis we're talking about a lot of
complexity in order to deliver avery Simple, or seemingly simple
(16:07):
outcome, which is running thebusiness well, and that, that
carries across very differentindustries, but I look at even
as we're thinking about thingslike these vendor partners, for
example, like if you want to bea prominent person in their
portfolio, because you want todo.
Co marketing with them.
(16:28):
A lot of times a way to grow acompany, like if I'm putting
together a marketing program,I'm always looking at inbound
marketing.
I'm looking at field marketing,which is basically events.
And I'm looking at partnerships.
One of the key ways to scalegrowth is by having
partnerships.
And so that's another way.
So You're looking to bring inthese partners or these vendor
(16:48):
partners who are not only goingto, you're not only going to
take their service and now applyit to your customers, but
they're also going to serve aslead generators.
And sometimes you might dothings where you start to white
label products and all that typeof thing.
And that is all by being aprominent player in the
industry, not only with yourcustomers, but also with the
(17:08):
other players that are there.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Okay.
Let's go to the next questionthen.
Now that we've.
We've had this really awesome,broad definition of multi sided,
and it sounds like mostbusinesses are if they're
healthy and growing and scaling.
And that is the alignment ofrevenue critical roles, right?
In the business.
And we touched a little bit uponit when we were talking about
(17:30):
the role of the CRO, but in yourmind, when you're running your
GTM strategy for clients and yougo and walk in.
What is the first thing you dowhen you look at the
organization?
Speaker 6 (17:45):
Ideally, the first thing that I do is I do an
overall assessment.
So one of the things that peoplewill ask me is what do you do?
And I tell them it's Differentevery single time.
So when I go into anorganization and I'm evaluating,
okay, what is it that you'redoing and what is it that you
should be doing more of less ofor, stop or start, I go into the
(18:07):
organization and I ask a bunchof questions.
And what I'm looking for isactually not, I'm less focused
on, okay, stop doing this,although that will come, but I'm
more looking for what I calllike the nuggets of gold.
Every organization has hiddenstrengths and opportunities that
they're doing really well.
(18:29):
And a lot of times the bestthing that you can do to enhance
your revenue growth is to lookat your own organization, what
is working well, and then doubledown on it.
So one of the first things thatI'll do is.
Go back to strategy.
So people will come to me andthey'll be like we're not
generating.
And there's a variety of issues.
We're not generating enoughleads.
(18:49):
The leads aren't convertingthrough the funnel.
I can't hire a salesperson whosells as successfully as I do.
That's usually what, like afounder issue we can't figure
out marketing.
And so what happens is they'llcome and it's a tactical issue,
but actually their issue is fivesteps back.
In terms of strategy.
So if I had a dime a dozen forevery person who came to me and
(19:14):
where sales has one idea of whothe ideal customer is, like we
call it the ICP, the idealcustomer profile and marketing
has a different idea of who theideal customer is.
So this is a really good one.
I spoke to one company and Theywere talking about how they're
going after enterpriseprospects.
(19:34):
So this means these are, this iswhale hunting, you've got a long
sales cycle, you've got a, likean account based strategy
because there's only so many ofthem, that type of a thing.
And then they also mentionedthat marketing was delivering
hundreds of MQLs per monthagainst which they weren't able
(19:57):
to convert, because I can tellyou right now, if you're
generating, in the high hundredsof MQLs, they're not enterprise
MQLs.
There's just not enough of themout there.
So what happened was youliterally had sales, he was
going after one customer andthis almost seems like it seems
crazy, right?
Like when we look at itconceptually, but the thing is
(20:20):
you get busy and running thebusiness.
If there's not goodcommunication between the
departments.
So the sales is going after onecustomer and marketing is going
after a completely differentcustomer.
And then you think about.
The inequity between those twoand the waste of time and
resources and money that'shappening in that funnel.
(20:41):
And so one of the first thingsthat I'll do is I'll do the
assessment.
I'll ask the list of questions.
I'll hear where the pain pointsand challenges are.
And then I back it up and I say,we have to all agree on
strategy.
Who are we going after?
Who is the right customer tobring in and then getting really
focused on that.
I don't want to have, if you'relooking at your ideal customer
(21:03):
profile, you want to identifymaybe three industry verticals.
If you're going to have avertical based strategy and you
want to go after those reallyheavy because you want to speak
to them being customer centric.
You want to speak to them intheir language.
And then, oh, by the way, whenyou're able to go to really
define that and go after them itgives you, you're bringing in
(21:26):
customers who are most likely tobenefit her.
They're most likely to convert.
Because your messagingresonates, they're also going to
benefit from your product orservice because they they have
the need that's there.
And then therefore, they're mostlikely to be satisfied and stay
loyal and deliver that lifetimecustomer value.
Yeah, able to standardizeproducts and services because
(21:50):
you're bringing in more of thesame that drives operational
efficiency and we all knowoperational efficiency drives
profitability.
So you back up and it's you talkto someone and you're like we
need to define the idealcustomer profile and they're
like, Oh, y'all like marketingcrap, but it's not.
It's actually really importantbecause you get that right and
you can build a business behindit.
(22:12):
That's literally more profitablethan the competition.
You know, it's interesting.
The media and events world onesales to me has always taken a
backseat to audience in terms ofthe effort, the investments, the
technology, and the quoteunquote seat at the table.
they need the revenue.
They're, it's a revenue ledorganization, but in terms of
the budget and the support andthe thought process behind the
(22:34):
strategy, it's been like, allright, then we look it's going
to keep it going.
Let's not mess around and changestuff.
The SaaS model where it's getthe users.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
But really what, if you really were to go lift the
hood up, you would find a lot ofunhealthy revenue, which is
there's high levels of churn.
They're like, Oh, we've got 65,70 percent retention.
You're like, and they're happyabout it.
And you're sitting there going,Oh my God, why are you happy
about that?
And the second part is it'srevenue at any cost.
(23:03):
And there are different levelsof profitability and scalability
and sustainability and thedifferent types of revenue
streams that they have.
I was just talking about thisyesterday with a very well known
CRO in a very large data andmedia company.
And it's yeah, the sales teamcomes in and they're all excited
because they sold a half amillion dollars of a custom
project.
I'm sitting here ready to bangmy head against the wall going,
(23:26):
Oh my God, that is, Notrenewable has a high rate of
failure or delay.
So we may not even get therevenue all in this because our
fiscal is July 1 and the cost toimplement it.
What's the margin?
But the sales person's happybecause they got the deal in and
they hit credit.
(23:46):
Quota and they have thecommission.
The client is probably happyactually to a degree because
they're getting this customproject, but it's not good for
the business.
And that is, that's wherestrategy has failed.
It has failed on incentives.
It has failed on educating thesalesperson.
(24:07):
It's failed for the company tobe even offering unprofitable
solutions, especially if you'restruggling to grow.
And a lot of these companies areseeing maybe 20 percent EBITDA.
It's been, hard times.
So I think there's a lot on theefficiency side that can be
brought over to, many of themarkets that I serve on the
media and event side.
(24:28):
But again, I think overall, it'slike we need to be selling
smarter, more efficiently andmore profitably It's all about
that,
Speaker 6 (24:34):
that efficient funnel that you were talking about.
Oh,
Speaker 2 (24:37):
right.
And I, I think I told you, Itrademarked this concept called
the revenue room.
And it was because I actuallywas consulting for a company
that had a revenue room.
And it was a literal room wherethey had marketing.
They had the marketing team whowas feeding them the leads,
right?
They were, they're responsiblefor the inbound leads.
You had the SDR team that wouldtake the leads.
(24:58):
Go qualify them forappointments, the AEs were there
doing all of the closing andthe, the sailing and the closing
and the customer success team isalso in there, They would have
them organized in pods.
Sales squads.
So focused on specific ICPs.
And I thought it was brilliant.
They weren't arguing with oneanother about whose fault it was
(25:18):
if pipeline wasn't hit, it'sbecause they were all aligned.
They were listening to oneanother.
They were literally teaming upfrom the beginning.
The act was, how did we acquireall the way to closing,
retaining and growing who theyended up fighting with a lot
though, was the audience and thecontent side, because they were
not in the But they weredelivering the
Speaker 6 (25:39):
one entity that wasn't in the room is the one
that had the and they're theones that are in the
communication and culture.
Right?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
It's the alignment.
It's the customer centricityorganizational alignment.
Like product needs a seat withinthat revenue construct and
frankly financed us too.
Do you, your position I wouldimagine is that because I
actually worked for a salescompany where the the customer
success team was under product,not under the CRO.
(26:07):
I always found that reallystrange, but I hear it's not.
Maybe it's changed today.
This was a couple years ago.
What's your position on that?
Speaker 6 (26:18):
And whether they should be under product or CRO.
I mean, if you're at anorganization that's big enough,
you may have a chief clientofficer who's going directly
into the CEO.
So taking that out of it becausethat, that makes sense.
Large organizations, each rolebecomes more specialized.
In most companies, I strugglewith the product thing.
(26:41):
I'm trying to figure out howthat would work.
I'm honestly trying to think ofa scenario in which that would
make sense.
And I'm not coming up with oneto me.
When I look at it and I've got acompany and let's say we have to
build the marketing model, thefirst place I'm going to go is
(27:02):
actually customer success, it'smy greatest opportunity for
short term revenue growth.
You've got an existing audience.
Who, is where you have anexisting relationship, assuming
you've got a good servicedelivery organization, you are
able to just tack stuff on tocurrent conversations.
(27:23):
So the way I always look at itis I say, current customer
revenue is going to drive yourshort to midterm revenue growth.
And then you've got yourmarketing, which if, unless
you're taking it, just ampingsomething up, that's already
working well, if you're buildingsomething that's going to take
your six to 12 months.
So you've got short term revenuegrowth.
You've got the inboundmarketing, which is going to be
(27:44):
your mid to long term revenuegrowth.
And you've got to have thecombination of the two in order
to really drive those 15, 20, 25percent category growth rates.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah.
I have two things.
I think one customer success isthe unsung hero because they are
so close to the customer andmarketing.
The top of funnel should beconnected with them all the
time.
What are the customers saying?
What's the feedback?
What are they like?
What do they don't like?
Yeah.
What are the themes that you'rehearing that we could apply to
the marketing to do ourmarketing better?
But you actually said somethingreally interesting and it may
(28:14):
answer a question I've beengrappling with.
So you said customer success andthen you said service delivery.
Is that a different role?
Speaker 6 (28:25):
It depends on the size of the organization.
But in my mind, so like I knowof companies where there's,
that's actually three differentroles.
So you've got the people who areSo I'm going to actually I'm
going to give an example companythat I was working with.
They had account managers, sothey had the operations people
(28:46):
who were doing more servicedelivery.
So I'm actually implementingwhat it is on a day to day
basis.
Then you've got the accountmanager.
Who was managing the overallhealth of the account.
They weren't necessarilyservicing the account on that,
like implementing things on aday to day basis, but they were
managing the account.
Now in this organization, theywanted the account managers
(29:10):
focused on management.
They didn't want the accountmanagers cross selling and
upselling.
And as we just talked about thatcross sell and upsell is a key
opportunity for revenue growth,especially in the short to
midterm.
When I was actually working withthem and they were looking at,
okay, why aren't we growing?
One of the issues they weren'tmaximizing current customer
growth.
(29:31):
So what we did is rather thanretrain the account management
team in this particularinstance, because it just wasn't
in their DNA.
We added the client developmentteam and that client development
team would partner with theaccount managers when there were
the opportunities, when therewas, we identified white space
for cross and upsell.
I think it's relatively fluidbecause there are instances
(29:55):
where I would have gone where Iwould go in there and I would
look at an account managementteam and there's actually an
instance now where I'm workingwith an account management team
and I would say we can have themcross an upsell.
There's no reason why To hireand train a whole separate group
of people on top of your accountmanagers.
We can drive enough growth withyour current team and that's
(30:16):
going to be more profitable.
But then there's other timeswhere you look at it and you
look at that team and it's okay,that's going to be an overhaul.
And so you might have someonewho's going to come in like a
few client development managersin order to partner with them
and drive it that way.
So I'd say there's, Multipleapproaches, all of which are
valid.
And it depends on where yourorganization is and the size of
(30:40):
your organization and where youare operationally and from a
maturity standpoint at any pointin time.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
And it sounds good.
Cause to me, the account managerwith the delivery and then a The
cross all upsell team that yousaid sounds like overkill, but
I'm thinking to myself, maybeit's because what's being sold
has such a high level of projectmanagement in it.
And having to connect a lot ofdifferent things to get the
(31:09):
project done or the deal done orTo the contract executed that
account manager is only focusedon that goes to the customer
delivery team or the servicedelivery team to X who executes.
They don't face the customerreally, even though they're they
are touching it at the end ofthe day, you brought in the this
upsell cross healthy.
Why wouldn't you go back to thenew business developers to
(31:31):
actually do the cross sellupsell?
Speaker 6 (31:34):
I like to keep new business developers developing
new business, so I wantsalespeople to be hunters.
The fact is that existingcustomer audience is always
going to be a richer audience.
Shouldn't say that, but it'salways going to be a less uphill
battle, because like we said,they're already engaged.
Assuming that you're servicingthem well, you know that there's
(31:55):
interest there, and so you'rejust saying hey.
We should be doing what we aredoing for you.
And this, which by the way, Iknow for a fact you don't have,
and I know how it's going tobenefit, hunters is a completely
different thing.
And what I found is that whenyou have salespeople who are
both hunting and farming, theyspend too much time farming and
not enough time hunting.
(32:15):
Also the comp between those twoneeds to be different.
You can't be making the sameamount of calm on a current
customer as you are on.
And that new prospect.
So if possible.
I like to separate those two.
I do have things where if it's areally large account, you might
have an exception where theoutside salesperson may stay
involved with it for a longerperiod of time than usual.
(32:38):
So there's always exceptions tothe rule, but if possible,
hunters hunt farmers farm.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Yeah.
I also will say, I think it alsodepends on again, if you're
selling enterprise and yourexpansion opportunity is
enormous.
So like we used to sell intoSAP.
You would never want to havemultiple people.
You needed someone to own SAPand inside and out across the
board, you might have a partnerin another region who, you know,
because, you want it to beregional and local and I think
(33:08):
the other part is if you're inmore mature markets where the
new business, which no one willever admit, but.
It's a little bit harder to get.
You would have a problem withthe sales team, but I agree the
comp wouldn't be enough for themto hunt
Speaker 6 (33:22):
in order to, and that's my point.
Why I was saying like,everything has to start with an
assessment because there is noone size fits all rule to
anything like and it's the waythat I always go into things.
I always say revenue growth is acombination of art and science
And I should say, and that'seven more so for profitable
(33:42):
revenue growth.
So it's going to be acombination.
I always feel that it's acombination of data and gut
feel.
I think you have to be able tobring both to the table and it's
why you hire people who areexperienced or just who have a
good sense of the customer andthat type of a thing.
I think that the best companiescombine both.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
No, absolutely.
I would say art, skill andscience and well, data.
But yeah, we're on the samepage, which leads me into my
next question, which is data.
Tell me how you help companiesunderstand and activate data as
fuel for revenue growth and,revenue growth, acquisition,
(34:24):
retention, expansion.
Speaker 6 (34:28):
So this is such a, it's such a big one, right?
And it's a place where I feellike a lot of companies
struggle.
So the thing that I say is Ihave never, I've written gosh,
so many annual marketing plans.
I started doing it in mytwenties, back at consumer
packaged goods companies.
And I've been doing itthroughout my career.
(34:49):
I've I have never executed a goto market plan exactly the way
I've written it ever.
And actually that's a good thingbecause the way that I look at
it is you write a go to marketplan based upon the information
you have at hand at that pointin time.
And I don't know of any of uswho's operating in an industry
that doesn't.
(35:10):
evolve where customer needsdon't evolve or where the
competition doesn't evolve.
So the way I look at it is youwrite this plan, you have this
overall strategy of how it isthat you're going to go to
market.
And then you have to look at itlike the same way I consider a
website.
It's a living, breathing entitythat continuously needs to be
monitored and evolved.
And so one of the key things onthat plan is you have to have.
(35:35):
Places where you're getting dataand ideally customer centric
data.
So looking at things likefeedback loops, looking at
things like scorecards and thenalso having the accountability
in the processes to make surethat those aren't just things
that are out there, that they'reactually being used, analyzed
(35:55):
and you're changing how you'redoing things based upon the
information.
That they're delivering.
And that last part, actually, Ishouldn't say that every aspect
of that can be challenging.
Getting the data, figuring outwhat data you want, getting the
data into scorecards that aremanageable and that's accurate.
(36:16):
And then also, and that in andof itself is often challenging.
And I know you have some reallygood insights there, but so then
you've got that part that'schallenging and you actually
want that to be the least.
Of your worries because you wantto spend the majority of your
time not figuring out is thisdata, right?
And how do we gather this data,but actioning the data and
(36:37):
saying, what is this?
What is this data telling uswhat is going well that we want
to do more of what is not goingwell, because then we want to
move resources away from it.
That should be ideally 75percent of your time.
So it should be like 25 percentand getting the data and making
sure the data is right.
75 percent on actioning thedata.
(36:57):
And a lot of times I find thatorganizations, it's really
difficult for them to reachthat, that it's reversed.
They're still in the get thedata is the data right type of a
thing versus the actioningportion.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Yeah for sure.
And I think with a multi sidedbusiness model, and especially
if you're dealing with lots ofdifferent ICP's for different
types of products you'reselling, the data is
overwhelming.
And so I, technically, if it's awell set up Customer centric
organization that hadunderstands that there should be
no time spent on getting thedata.
The data should be set up andflowing into dashboards and to
(37:32):
score cards and to, but there'sa big problem, so that's a
problem understanding the rightdata to look at because not all
data is good, right?
It's There's just what's theright data for now?
How is it being democratizedacross your revenue
organization?
So we're all looking at the samething, but maybe in slightly
(37:53):
different ways.
And I hear this one a lot.
Yeah, I've got a lot of data infront of me, but no one's been
training me or teaching me howto action it.
So all, that's why CEOs get sofrustrated with the cost of data
transformation and data projectsbecause they're, it's expensive.
But then they're like where'sthe ROI?
What were you expecting?
(38:15):
So you, Mr.
CEO or Mrs.
CEO or CEO of any label whatwere you expecting?
That's your big loss there.
What were you expecting data todo to your top and bottom line?
And how did you get your teamall aligned about that?
What were the milestones and howare you using data?
But let's bring it down to therevenue room is, are you
training and coaching?
(38:36):
All of you, every function tohave a business level data
science skillset.
What am I looking at?
What is it telling me?
What do I do with it next?
And what are the tools have Ibeen given to actually action
this into my workflow?
And then how are we measuring?
That
Speaker 4 (38:55):
yes,
Speaker 2 (38:56):
measuring the actioning.
So I know it's working.
That's the flow that needs to bepresent across the board.
And that's when you have thatgoing all of a sudden, you can
align your revenue criticalroles.
You can put KPIs on every singlefunction in the business that
(39:16):
touches the customer.
On revenue, it may be slightlydifferent.
And I'm not saying get rid ofthe KPIs that are about the
skills within your function, butif you wanna scale and grow your
company and get everyone workingon the same thing, they have to
be looking at the same data.
They have to be aligned andbeing incentivized, and they
have to know and be given thetools to action it so that they
can mitigate risk and captureopportunity faster and better.
Speaker 6 (39:40):
Yes.
And a lot of times it's alsohaving the communication
processes around that.
Yes.
Getting the right data,interpreting it, changing your
actions because of it, andmaking sure the right people are
in the room as you're doing eachof those things.
Yes.
Like we were talking about we'remarketing, we're saying I'm
delivering hundreds of MQLs amonth, and sales is convert any
(40:02):
of them.
So it's they both, they're likeI'm meeting my KPI.
Yeah.
And, but it's not doing businessand good.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
And then, again, this is the proverbial problem in
events and media, the KPIs foran event for the audience side
is butts in seat.
How many people did we get inthe room?
And they hit their KPI.
And oh, by the way, the NPSscore for the audience was
really high.
Yay, we did our job.
The sales side hit their quota.
(40:30):
But guess what?
All of the customers are PO'dbecause the audience, all those
numbers, didn't hit the qualitylevels they were expecting.
They didn't get meetings.
They didn't get enough leads.
And then you're sitting there,but audience is saying, hey, I
got, I hit my thing.
My job.
Too bad.
There's that's the misalignmentand that's not customer centric.
Speaker 6 (40:49):
Yeah.
That's a big thing.
I it's such a common, it'sanother reason why I'm big on
zeros because, marketing and belike sales doesn't convert.
And sales is always marketingdoesn't give us enough leads.
And in my teams, I don't everwant to hear either of those
phrases.
It's one combined team.
And, if any of those things ishappening, or you have an issue
(41:11):
with that's exactly why I'mthere.
I'm there to help facilitate andsolve those issues or to guide
the solution, the team solutionto those issues.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yeah unfortunately, we're running out of time.
So I think we have to scheduleanother podcast because there
are two more questions on here.
I feel like yeah, we can keep
Speaker 6 (41:26):
talking for a long time.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
But let's say next episode, we're going to be
talking about community and howimportant that is not only from
a media standpoint, butactually, if you are a
technology vendor, for example.
Listen, thank you so much.
It's been a pleasure having youon our the revenue room show.
And I'm looking forward to ournext not only our next podcast,
but on June 18th, you and I aregoing to be Co lecturers at our
(41:53):
first lunch lab, which will betaking place at the Yale Club on
June 18th from 12 to 4.
And we are going to take a deepdive into customer centricity in
a multi sided businessenvironment.
And that deep dive is not only anew construct we've built, which
is rapid learning for CEOs andtheir customers, Revenue
critical executive teams.
(42:13):
But it is going to include theeight capabilities of customer
centric organizations and aflywheel structure to go through
that from beginner, medium, andadvanced.
And then I call it advancedplus, which is multi sided
considerations.
We're going to talk about thesix principles that guide
leaders to move towards customercentricity.
(42:34):
And we're also actually going totalk about the.
Unspoken problem with customercentricity.
And those are the risks to thebusiness if you don't do it
right.
So looking forward to having youwith me on the 18th of June.
Speaker 6 (42:46):
Thank you so much.
It was wonderful to be a guestin the revenue room and
definitely looking forward tothe 18th.
We'll I think we're going to dosome great things with that
group in person.
Terrific.
Thanks so much, Amy.
Thank you.
Take care
Heather Holst-Knudsen (43:00):
You can find us@2klabs.com.
Thank you.
Thank you for listening to TheRevenue Room by H2K Labs.
Subscribe to our channel today.
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