June 3, 2025 • 21 mins
Susan Benigas, Executive Director of the American College of Lifestyle Medicine (ACLM), pulls back the curtain on how a radical rethinking of medicine is transforming healthcare at its roots. Having served in her role for over a decade, Susan represents half of ACLM's 20-year history—a journey that's seen membership explode from just 380 members to thousands of passionate practitioners worldwide.
The conversation begins with a surprising revelation: Susan isn't a clinician at all, but a business and marketing professional whose personal awakening came in 2007. "I just don't believe that God designed us all to become chronically ill and dependent on medications," she explains, describing her growing discomfort with America's pharmaceutical-dependent healthcare approach. After discovering T. Colin Campbell's groundbreaking book "The China Study," Susan recognized that every food choice represents either a step toward health or away from it—a realization that would ultimately transform both her personal and professional life.
What truly distinguishes ACLM is its remarkable growth trajectory, particularly during the COVID-19 pandemic when most medical associations were losing members. From 2019 to 2022, membership skyrocketed from 3,500 to 9,500, reflecting the pandemic's stark illumination of how lifestyle-related chronic conditions dramatically impact health outcomes. Today, with nearly 4,500 conference attendees representing 64 countries, ACLM has evolved from a niche organization to a global movement.
Perhaps most compelling is Susan's assertion that lifestyle medicine is essential to any meaningful healthcare transformation: "It is impossible to optimize value-based care without a lifestyle medicine-first approach." The model not only aligns perfectly with the quintuple aim of healthcare but also reconnects practitioners with their original motivation—becoming true healers rather than disease managers. For many physicians, discovering lifestyle medicine has literally saved their medical careers by restoring purpose and demonstrating what's truly possible in patient care.
Ready to witness healthcare transformation that actually works? Discover how ACLM is unleashing an unstoppable force for change by returning to medicine's foundational principles while creating scalable, evidence-based solutions for our most pressing health challenges.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Justin Politti (00:02):
Welcome to the Reverse Mullet Healthcare
Podcast from BP2 Health.
We are live at ACLM Orlando,florida 2024.
I'm Justin Politti, I'm DavePavlik.
Ellen Brown (00:11):
And I am Ellen Brown, and we are here at the
American College of LifestyleMedicine Conference and we are
here with a legendary person,susan, that I didn't even think
we were going to be able to geton.
Dave Pavlik (00:21):
She's a hard woman to catch up with.
Ellen Brown (00:23):
Yes, you're a hard woman to catch up, but you have
put this is amazing, and sointroduce yourself, and then
let's just chat for a fewminutes.
I'm so excited you got to comeon.
Oh well, thank you, I am justdelighted to be here and you got
the memo about the blue.
Susan Benigas (00:34):
Yes, exactly, we're matching, we're good.
Yes, yes, we're in ACLM bluehere today.
There you go, and I'm SusanBenigas.
I serve as Executive Directorof the American College of
Lifestyle Medicine.
I've been in this role for 10and a half years and since we're
here celebrating the 20thanniversary of ACLM, it means
(00:54):
I've been here.
Half of ACLM's life.
Ellen Brown (00:55):
Well, more than half, if you say 10 and a half.
Well, 10 and a half, yeah, soit's been a long time.
It's amazing.
A long time.
Yeah, that's a long time, yeah,that's amazing.
So it's been just such a joythough.
Susan Benigas (01:07):
Congratulations, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, so you asked us aquestion.
Yeah, so so tell me so, reversemullet.
So how did the reverse mullet,how did this come about?
The reverse mullet podcast?
I'd love to hear the history.
Justin Politti (01:16):
We're obsessed with mullets.
Dave Pavlik (01:21):
So the podcast itself was born out of just sort
of a passion project for us.
So we do a lot of work in theindustry around payment
transformation and there waskind of a point where we wanted
to like how do we get themessage out to a broader
audience?
You know, we have clients thathire us to do certain things,
you know, and one of theopportunities we had was, you
(01:42):
know, it was suggested that westart a podcast.
So the reverse mullet part ofit is know, we're thinking, all
right, we're going to do apodcast.
What's it going to be about?
Health care?
Oh, that sounds really exciting, you know, right?
So so there's a ton of healthcare podcasts and we just no
offense to you know, anybody inthe health care podcast.
But you know they're not thatfun, so that's kind of boring.
(02:04):
So we said we're going to havesome fun.
So party in the front, businessin the back like a mullet, but
reversed.
And that's what we do.
We have fun with our guests,Okay.
Susan Benigas (02:14):
But it's business in the back, and then we get
into the serious conversationsof healthcare.
Justin Politti (02:17):
I love that.
Ellen Brown (02:19):
There's no reason we can't have fun doing it we
like that philosophy and thereason that we are here at ACLM
is because our platform is tobring thought leaders in
healthcare on to talk about howto affect real change in the
industry.
And as a firm, we really wantedto see payment transformation
move beyond just sort of the toein the water that it's really
(02:41):
largely been, and what werealized is we needed to look
for the solutions and not justthe unicorns, but like how, how
do we make outcomes based careeffective?
Like payment models can'tsucceed if you don't have the
interventions for them tosucceed.
And so we kind of we started onthis path, this journey a bit,
(03:01):
and one of the first things thatwe ran into, other than you
know, food is health, food ismedicine, food industry was
American College of LifestyleMedicine and Martin.
All I kept hearing was Ellen,you have to talk to Martin Tull,
and so I did.
I got, I talked to him and Iwas like this is it?
This could be the magic bulletthat helps us transform
(03:22):
healthcare, because it'ssomething that can be layered
into the existing system.
It's not so disruptive thatnothing works economically.
It could be the answer.
Justin Politti (03:31):
And as a sidebar , the mullet is so popular I've
got to hop out and go take a yes, he does.
Ellen Brown (03:35):
He has to go live interview.
It's in demand, it is sopopular here.
Dave Pavlik (03:38):
Oh.
Ellen Brown (03:38):
I can see why, he's got videos.
Dave Pavlik (03:41):
I've got other stuff.
Yeah, absolutely.
Ellen Brown (03:43):
He's got to go meet the entourage.
He's got to do a promotionalvideo for who I don't know, dude
, he calls.
Dave Pavlik (03:48):
Yeah, dude, he calls, he's a man in demand.
We'll see you on the other side.
Susan Benigas (03:52):
The man in demand .
There he goes Well, yeah.
Ellen Brown (03:55):
So tell us how you got to ACLM like 10 years ago.
Susan Benigas (04:07):
What in Like, what in the background, was the
journey?
Well, you know, a number ofyears ago I was president of a
worksite health promotioncompany and this was back like
oh gosh, you know, back in 2005,6, 7, back in those years, and
we were doing what everyone elsewas doing.
We would go in with an employer, we would do biometric
screenings and health riskassessments.
When anyone was found to have achronic condition or multiple
risk factors, we would say, well, you need to see your primary
care doc and get a script.
(04:28):
And then you beat the drum ofmedication persistency and I was
finally getting to the pointthat I thought something is
wrong with this.
I just don't believe that Goddesigned us all to become
chronically ill and dependent onmedications.
Yet you know, hey, the statsthen.
And now it's like what we havea 70% of all adult Americans,
(04:49):
90% of seniors on prescriptionmeds.
We spend more onpharmaceuticals than the rest of
the world combined.
Only two countries in the wholeworld allow direct to consumer
advertising for pharmaceuticals.
And you know?
And then when you get to thepoint where type two diabetes
can no longer be called adultonset because so many children
are being diagnosed, with thislifestyle related disease.
(05:12):
So I was thinking something isreally wrong with this.
And I was invited to apresentation in late 2007, by an
oncologist and I didn't evenreally know what it was going to
be about, other than somethingabout healthcare, you know and
she stood up in front of theroom and she said when I was in
my early 50s, I was diagnosedwith fibromyalgia, a skin
(05:34):
condition, arthritis and shesaid I was living on the treats
that my grateful patientsbrought.
And she held up a book and saidbut this book has changed my
life and has changed the livesof many of my patients, and it
was the China Study by T ColinCampbell.
And again, this is late 2007.
So the book had only been out acouple of years at that point
in time.
And well, I went out, read thebook and, based on where my head
(05:56):
was at the time, reallystarting to question the status
quo.
And that's what really was thecatalyst that sent me on this
new journey, because itconnected the dots between that.
Every bite we take is either astep toward health or a step in
the other direction.
And it kind of painted thispicture that we didn't
necessarily have a health caresystem.
(06:17):
We had a disease and disabilitycare system, a sick care system
.
And my background.
I am not a clinician, mybackground is all business,
marketing.
That is an entrepreneurship.
That's what I brought to thetable.
Well, I read this and you know,anger can sort of be a
motivator, right and I then justfelt like, oh my good, well it
(06:37):
totally it changed my personaland professional life.
And then there were many stepsin between, but that was what
ignited my journey to begin withthe real awareness that we
needed to identify and eradicatethe root cause of disease, with
the clinical outcome goal ofhealth restoration.
So for me that's when the seedwas planted.
Dave Pavlik (06:58):
Wow, until you said you weren't a clinician, I was
thinking for sure you were.
Susan Benigas (07:04):
No, it's amazing.
Ellen Brown (07:04):
On the business side.
It's amazing, though, how, whenyou really start to learn about
lifestyle medicine and it'sfunny, we were just talking
about how the fact that we callit lifestyle medicine is almost
humorous, because it's justmedicine it's like how we should
live our lives.
It's like, like somebody saidearlier, it's almost too simple.
Yes, yes but when you reallyread books, like the China study
(07:28):
, and you consume some of thenow like fast forward right,
that was back when we were alljust reading books right, right.
Susan Benigas (07:34):
I feel like starting in 2015, 2016,.
Ellen Brown (07:37):
I started all of a sudden podcasts.
Oh, sure you know, and I thinkRich Roll has done an amazing
job of he was a real sort ofearly distribution mechanism of
some of what we're talking aboutin a more mainstream,
consumable way.
Right, you know, putting ZachBush on, putting it just, it's
it.
There were all sorts ofdifferent folks that all of a
(07:58):
sudden you're like you know allthe, all the folks that you're
talking about that are legends.
It was like, all of a sudden,now, the masses, right, right,
they weren't in thoseconferences.
Susan Benigas (08:07):
It's true, and I think what first ignited it, you
know I through my journey again.
You know what I just describedwas late 2007 and there was this
series of events, but I reallycame to this conclusion that we
had to reach medicalprofessionals, that we had this
gaping void of lifestylemedicine and food as medicine in
(08:30):
medical education right, andthat until we really got medical
professionals on board, thattoo often individuals may see a
documentary, read a book, listento a podcast, feel led to
change their behavior, but ifthey go to their unenlightened
medical professional who's beentrained in an allopathic,
diagnosed the ill prescribed thepill right and a lifetime of
(08:53):
disease management, you know,too often, you know I will say
that a doctor's word is secondonly to God's and so often they
hold the trump card right andthat we really had to reach
clinicians.
And that was why ACLM wasestablished.
You know, 20 years ago.
It was established by visionaryphysicians, led by founding
(09:17):
president John Kelly, who lookedaround and saw that there was
no other field of medicine thatrepresented evidence-based
therapeutic lifestyleintervention to treat and even
reverse already existing disease, knowing that if the dose was
efficacious for treatment,reversal prevention was the
natural byproduct.
(09:37):
And that really, you know, setthe wheels in motion.
And, interestingly enough, andyou know, I joined ACLM in 2014.
And we did a member survey in2015.
Now, back then, like in 2015,we probably had 500 members by
the time 2015 rolled around.
But we asked them you know,what drew you to ACLM?
(09:57):
Now this is 2015.
And we listed.
You know, was it a book, was ita documentary?
Was it a class in medicalschool?
Was it a?
You know?
Just tell us.
Over 50% of the respondentsback in 2015 said it was the
documentary.
Forks Over Knives.
Yes, and that that was what was, you know, had kind of led them
.
But now, my goodness, had kindof led them.
(10:24):
But now, my goodness, there'sso many, as you say, from Rich
Roll to your podcast, to so manypodcasts and incredible books
and so many more researchstudies and papers that are
published from the Lancet toJAMA, it's undeniable.
I mean the gentleman whom wejust gave a special recognition
award to today, dr Ali Mukdad,who is head of the Institute of
(10:44):
Health Metrics and Evaluationout of Seattle Washington
University of Washington, thelargest repository of
healthcare-related data in theworld, funded by the Gates
Foundation, and you know some ofAli has been the one that's
been championing, saying thatit's lifestyle that's the
leading cause of disease anddeath, and you know what people
(11:07):
are and are not eating, sort ofat the, at the tip of that
particular sphere.
Ellen Brown (11:12):
So what?
I guess this is sort of adouble edged question.
You can answer how you see fit.
Is there's obviously beentremendous moment, right?
Yeah, I mean, if you look atthe trajectory of a attendance
to this conference be the numberof diplomats, you know just
sports or all of it, theadoption of it but at the same
time, like I guess, I would ask,what do you think has been sort
(11:34):
of that magic?
And then how do we keep thatgoing?
Right?
But then the other piece to itis what is the friction that we
need to remove?
Right, like, how can we makethis?
Because this really should be,I feel like every when we talk
about advanced primary care,right, and all of these new
primary care models, it's likehello, everybody should be board
(11:55):
certified in this.
This should be part of the corecurriculum, or I mean's, you
know no, no question about it.
Susan Benigas (12:00):
I mean even aclm stated vision statement is a
nation and world whereinlifestyle medicine is the
foundation of health and allhealth care.
Ellen Brown (12:09):
Right it's about, so I get knuckles on again.
This is yeah, absolutelyapplause.
Can you do okay?
Susan Benigas (12:15):
well, it's true, you know it's.
Uh, I like to say all thingsold are made new again, right,
hippocrates and all of hisinfinite wisdom, over 2,500
years ago.
So you look up so many of hisquotes, probably the most
notable being let food be thymedicine and medicine be thy
food, right, and so many of thefamous quotes that are
(12:35):
attributed to him.
Clearly, you know, the fatherof medicine knew that.
Again, it's the, if you just hewas really preaching lifestyle
medicine.
I mean, there's no questionabout it, but we really strayed
so far from that, becausethere's immense profit in
disease right you know there'simmense profit in disease.
(13:03):
The system has really beendesigned, even from quality
measures to you know so much, toreally support a disease and
disability care system.
And hey, thank goodness formodern medicine, I mean, if you
need acute care absolutely Imean, you know, we've got the
best health system in the worldbut so while we've done an
amazing job by and large of likepreventing infectious disease,
we have done a horrific job ofpreventing chronic disease and,
(13:25):
quite frankly, it has been.
I think COVID-19 did more to.
You know.
It really shined a bright lighton the urgent need to address
the underlying conditions thatexacerbated the virus's most
harmful effects, and what werethose?
Yeah, those underlyingconditions were lifestyle
related chronic diseases and thedisproportionate impact on our
(13:48):
underserved communities.
So it really made the awarenessabout and urgency for lifestyle
medicine root cause treatmentall the more relevant, and so we
our fall conference in the fallof 2019, we had 3,500 members.
By the time we had our nextlive in-person conference in the
(14:09):
fall of 2022, we had grown from3,500 to 9,500 members, and
that was during the time ofCOVID, when most medical
professional associations werebleeding members.
But I think that now you can'tput the genie back in the bottle
right, and this is such a goodthing that there's such
awareness about amongst all the.
(14:30):
I mean look at the.
We have nearly 4,500 registeredfor this conference.
Ellen Brown (14:35):
I mean the registrations.
Susan Benigas (14:36):
we've had several hundred that have come in just
since yesterday and it'sglobally.
64 countries are represented inour registrants and in our
Lifestyle Medicine GlobalAlliance that we founded back in
2016, when there were only fiveLifestyle Medicine Medical
Professional Associations aroundthe world.
There are now nearly 30 onevery continent around the world
(14:58):
, because it's the burden ofnon-communicable chronic disease
that is not just facing theUnited States.
I mean we've exported thestandard American diet, and so
now the world is reallysuffering under the burden.
But the good news is hey, Imean, hey look, the Reverse
Mullet podcast is tuned intothis.
That's right, as are thethousands of physicians and
(15:21):
medical professionals who arehere, and this you know.
Aclm is more than a medicalprofessional association, it's a
transformation catalyst right,that is such a magnet for
purpose, passion driven medicalprofessionals and healthcare
executives who understand what'sat stake, and they are
committed to being the changethey know that we so desperately
(15:44):
need.
And so ACLM, bringing everyonetogether, we represent a
galvanized force for change, andit is unstoppable.
Ellen Brown (15:51):
Like I said, your whole organization is a unicorn.
Like we say we're alwayslooking for the unicorns in
healthcare and I'm like ACLM.
The entity is a unicorn.
It's like at the global level.
Dave Pavlik (16:02):
So this is the 20th anniversary.
It is so what do the next 20years look like?
Hey, you know what.
Susan Benigas (16:06):
I think we're coming into the bend of the
hockey stick right, because whenI joined 10 years ago, we had
one part-time event coordinatorand 380 members, and for the
first 10 years, by and large,aclm had been a volunteer
physician-led organization andwhen it started, it was MD, do,
phd only.
And then, in 2012, reallyrecognizing the power of the
(16:30):
interdisciplinary team, openedits doors to all members of the
team.
Ellen Brown (16:36):
So I feel like in those years right because we
were really, we've always beenreally involved with, you know,
with payment transformation, sothe early years of CMMI and
value-based program development,and you know we were part of
organizations doing the samework that ACOs were doing before
there were ACOs, before therewere acronyms right yes.
And so, and then that it's thatsame timeframe, do you think
(16:57):
that that is one of thoseexamples of when that practice
transformation concept came intohealthcare?
Then all of a sudden peoplelike wait, lifestyle medicine is
, is, is you know?
Susan Benigas (17:07):
you know it's so interesting.
I do say that you know theprobably the best thing that
came out of the affordable careact was the accountable care
organization.
Right, because it finally wasgoing to incentivize, you
knowize, superior outcomes andcost containment.
The problem was it was sort oflike everybody was doing the
same thing over and over again,expecting a different result.
Ellen Brown (17:28):
Well, we know what that leads to, right.
Susan Benigas (17:30):
And so we have been like on the sidelines going
yeah, yeah, yeah, hey, we lovethe ACO model, but value-based
care you cannot.
It is impossible to optimizevalue-based care without a
lifestyle medicine firstapproach.
Unless you're identifying anderadicating the root cause of
disease, it's impossible.
So now that we've got thequintuple aim right, it's like
(17:52):
you cannot achieve the quintupleaim, you cannot manifest whole
person health, you cannotoptimize value-based care or
achieve patient-centered care orhigh-value care without a
lifestyle medicine-firstapproach to healthcare.
So I mean the momentum is thereand the time is now, and there
(18:14):
is really an awakening now thatthis is possible and it's being
done in a way where, gosh, wehave very in-depth reimbursement
roadmaps and we're seeingclinical practice models and I
mean people are doing this.
We have doctors out there whileothers are saying oh, this
needs to happen.
We're doing it.
(18:34):
We've got thousands of peoplehere who, every day, in every
state across this country,thousands of people here who,
every day, in every state acrossthis country, they are
implementing intensivetherapeutic lifestyle change in
ways that people areexperiencing health restoration
and lifestyle.
Medicine reignites the passionfor why most went into medicine
(18:55):
to begin with to become truehealers.
Dave Pavlik (18:57):
Every single practitioner we've sat down with
has stories about thistransformation.
Susan Benigas (19:02):
Oh yeah, even members of our board of
directors who say that theywould no longer be practicing
medicine if it weren't for lm.
Ellen Brown (19:08):
Not found aclm and lifestyle medicine, no, I mean
we have clients in this room whowe are helping with payment
like we are helping themnegotiate and, you know, make
sure exactly to that pointbecause I I actually, from my
perspective, having been on thedark side for so long I believe
that the barrier for this is thepayment model at the large
(19:30):
health system and at the largehealth plan level, that when you
find that vertically integratedkind of more community-based,
it's an easier piece, but it'snot difficult.
When you sit down with the CFOand you have the right
stakeholders in the room and youexplain, you show the massive
savings.
There's just not a there's nota common knowledge yet.
And so we're here we arechampions.
Susan Benigas (19:53):
Our firm is totally committed.
We're so glad that you're doingwhat you're doing because you
know, when we think about itit's like for whom is there
immense profit in optimal health?
Ellen Brown (20:02):
Well, we know it's self-funded employers.
Susan Benigas (20:04):
Number one right, absolutely.
It's self-funded employers,because you know, for them
incentives are totally aligned.
Ellen Brown (20:09):
But they need those health care delivery models to
deploy.
They do, and so that's why youhave to find those health
systems or other delivery caremodels are saying okay, I'm
willing to step up and do thisand partner with you as the
employer or the government orwhoever the insurer.
I'm willing, like Blue ZonesHealth right when it's like.
(20:30):
I'm willing to create that caremodel and take that financial
risk and be your partner todeploy this model for you, to
save the money so that you canreinvest it.
So we're in.
Susan Benigas (20:40):
Well, and now that we have, you know, thrown,
we already have, by the time theend of the year comes, we will
have over probably around 6,000certified medical professionals
in the.
United States alone, and thefact that we can.
You know, what COVID showed usas well, is that the deployment
of even lifestyle medicine,shared medical appointments, the
(21:03):
efficacy is equal to or evensuperior, when delivered, you
know, virtually than even inperson, and so the scalability
is there for us to do what weneed to do, and so you know, the
time is now.
It is.
Dave Pavlik (21:17):
Time is now so well , thank you for joining us,
Susan, Well thank you forjoining us.
Susan Benigas (21:20):
Susan Well, thank you.
Dave Pavlik (21:22):
Thank you for having us here Such a pleasure.
Susan Benigas (21:23):
Thank you for being here at Lifestyle Medicine
2024, helping to celebrate the20th anniversary of ACLN.
Ellen Brown (21:29):
That's fantastic Way to bring it home.
Thank you, okay.
Catalyst for transformationyeah, applause, applause, yay.
Susan Benigas (21:36):
Thank you so much .
Well, I hope you.
Welcome to the Reverse Mullet Healthcare
Podcast from BP2 Health.
We are live at ACLM Orlando,florida 2024.
I'm Justin Politti, I'm DavePavlik.
Ellen Brown (00:11):
And I am Ellen Brown, and we are here at the
American College of LifestyleMedicine Conference and we are
here with a legendary person,susan, that I didn't even think
we were going to be able to geton.
Dave Pavlik (00:21):
She's a hard woman to catch up with.
Ellen Brown (00:23):
Yes, you're a hard woman to catch up, but you have
put this is amazing, and sointroduce yourself, and then
let's just chat for a fewminutes.
I'm so excited you got to comeon.
Oh well, thank you, I am justdelighted to be here and you got
the memo about the blue.
Susan Benigas (00:34):
Yes, exactly, we're matching, we're good.
Yes, yes, we're in ACLM bluehere today.
There you go, and I'm SusanBenigas.
I serve as Executive Directorof the American College of
Lifestyle Medicine.
I've been in this role for 10and a half years and since we're
here celebrating the 20thanniversary of ACLM, it means
(00:54):
I've been here.
Half of ACLM's life.
Ellen Brown (00:55):
Well, more than half, if you say 10 and a half.
Well, 10 and a half, yeah, soit's been a long time.
It's amazing.
A long time.
Yeah, that's a long time, yeah,that's amazing.
So it's been just such a joythough.
Susan Benigas (01:07):
Congratulations, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, so you asked us aquestion.
Yeah, so so tell me so, reversemullet.
So how did the reverse mullet,how did this come about?
The reverse mullet podcast?
I'd love to hear the history.
Justin Politti (01:16):
We're obsessed with mullets.
Dave Pavlik (01:21):
So the podcast itself was born out of just sort
of a passion project for us.
So we do a lot of work in theindustry around payment
transformation and there waskind of a point where we wanted
to like how do we get themessage out to a broader
audience?
You know, we have clients thathire us to do certain things,
you know, and one of theopportunities we had was, you
(01:42):
know, it was suggested that westart a podcast.
So the reverse mullet part ofit is know, we're thinking, all
right, we're going to do apodcast.
What's it going to be about?
Health care?
Oh, that sounds really exciting, you know, right?
So so there's a ton of healthcare podcasts and we just no
offense to you know, anybody inthe health care podcast.
But you know they're not thatfun, so that's kind of boring.
(02:04):
So we said we're going to havesome fun.
So party in the front, businessin the back like a mullet, but
reversed.
And that's what we do.
We have fun with our guests,Okay.
Susan Benigas (02:14):
But it's business in the back, and then we get
into the serious conversationsof healthcare.
Justin Politti (02:17):
I love that.
Ellen Brown (02:19):
There's no reason we can't have fun doing it we
like that philosophy and thereason that we are here at ACLM
is because our platform is tobring thought leaders in
healthcare on to talk about howto affect real change in the
industry.
And as a firm, we really wantedto see payment transformation
move beyond just sort of the toein the water that it's really
(02:41):
largely been, and what werealized is we needed to look
for the solutions and not justthe unicorns, but like how, how
do we make outcomes based careeffective?
Like payment models can'tsucceed if you don't have the
interventions for them tosucceed.
And so we kind of we started onthis path, this journey a bit,
(03:01):
and one of the first things thatwe ran into, other than you
know, food is health, food ismedicine, food industry was
American College of LifestyleMedicine and Martin.
All I kept hearing was Ellen,you have to talk to Martin Tull,
and so I did.
I got, I talked to him and Iwas like this is it?
This could be the magic bulletthat helps us transform
(03:22):
healthcare, because it'ssomething that can be layered
into the existing system.
It's not so disruptive thatnothing works economically.
It could be the answer.
Justin Politti (03:31):
And as a sidebar , the mullet is so popular I've
got to hop out and go take a yes, he does.
Ellen Brown (03:35):
He has to go live interview.
It's in demand, it is sopopular here.
Dave Pavlik (03:38):
Oh.
Ellen Brown (03:38):
I can see why, he's got videos.
Dave Pavlik (03:41):
I've got other stuff.
Yeah, absolutely.
Ellen Brown (03:43):
He's got to go meet the entourage.
He's got to do a promotionalvideo for who I don't know, dude
, he calls.
Dave Pavlik (03:48):
Yeah, dude, he calls, he's a man in demand.
We'll see you on the other side.
Susan Benigas (03:52):
The man in demand .
There he goes Well, yeah.
Ellen Brown (03:55):
So tell us how you got to ACLM like 10 years ago.
Susan Benigas (04:07):
What in Like, what in the background, was the
journey?
Well, you know, a number ofyears ago I was president of a
worksite health promotioncompany and this was back like
oh gosh, you know, back in 2005,6, 7, back in those years, and
we were doing what everyone elsewas doing.
We would go in with an employer, we would do biometric
screenings and health riskassessments.
When anyone was found to have achronic condition or multiple
risk factors, we would say, well, you need to see your primary
care doc and get a script.
(04:28):
And then you beat the drum ofmedication persistency and I was
finally getting to the pointthat I thought something is
wrong with this.
I just don't believe that Goddesigned us all to become
chronically ill and dependent onmedications.
Yet you know, hey, the statsthen.
And now it's like what we havea 70% of all adult Americans,
(04:49):
90% of seniors on prescriptionmeds.
We spend more onpharmaceuticals than the rest of
the world combined.
Only two countries in the wholeworld allow direct to consumer
advertising for pharmaceuticals.
And you know?
And then when you get to thepoint where type two diabetes
can no longer be called adultonset because so many children
are being diagnosed, with thislifestyle related disease.
(05:12):
So I was thinking something isreally wrong with this.
And I was invited to apresentation in late 2007, by an
oncologist and I didn't evenreally know what it was going to
be about, other than somethingabout healthcare, you know and
she stood up in front of theroom and she said when I was in
my early 50s, I was diagnosedwith fibromyalgia, a skin
(05:34):
condition, arthritis and shesaid I was living on the treats
that my grateful patientsbrought.
And she held up a book and saidbut this book has changed my
life and has changed the livesof many of my patients, and it
was the China Study by T ColinCampbell.
And again, this is late 2007.
So the book had only been out acouple of years at that point
in time.
And well, I went out, read thebook and, based on where my head
(05:56):
was at the time, reallystarting to question the status
quo.
And that's what really was thecatalyst that sent me on this
new journey, because itconnected the dots between that.
Every bite we take is either astep toward health or a step in
the other direction.
And it kind of painted thispicture that we didn't
necessarily have a health caresystem.
(06:17):
We had a disease and disabilitycare system, a sick care system
.
And my background.
I am not a clinician, mybackground is all business,
marketing.
That is an entrepreneurship.
That's what I brought to thetable.
Well, I read this and you know,anger can sort of be a
motivator, right and I then justfelt like, oh my good, well it
(06:37):
totally it changed my personaland professional life.
And then there were many stepsin between, but that was what
ignited my journey to begin withthe real awareness that we
needed to identify and eradicatethe root cause of disease, with
the clinical outcome goal ofhealth restoration.
So for me that's when the seedwas planted.
Dave Pavlik (06:58):
Wow, until you said you weren't a clinician, I was
thinking for sure you were.
Susan Benigas (07:04):
No, it's amazing.
Ellen Brown (07:04):
On the business side.
It's amazing, though, how, whenyou really start to learn about
lifestyle medicine and it'sfunny, we were just talking
about how the fact that we callit lifestyle medicine is almost
humorous, because it's justmedicine it's like how we should
live our lives.
It's like, like somebody saidearlier, it's almost too simple.
Yes, yes but when you reallyread books, like the China study
(07:28):
, and you consume some of thenow like fast forward right,
that was back when we were alljust reading books right, right.
Susan Benigas (07:34):
I feel like starting in 2015, 2016,.
Ellen Brown (07:37):
I started all of a sudden podcasts.
Oh, sure you know, and I thinkRich Roll has done an amazing
job of he was a real sort ofearly distribution mechanism of
some of what we're talking aboutin a more mainstream,
consumable way.
Right, you know, putting ZachBush on, putting it just, it's
it.
There were all sorts ofdifferent folks that all of a
(07:58):
sudden you're like you know allthe, all the folks that you're
talking about that are legends.
It was like, all of a sudden,now, the masses, right, right,
they weren't in thoseconferences.
Susan Benigas (08:07):
It's true, and I think what first ignited it, you
know I through my journey again.
You know what I just describedwas late 2007 and there was this
series of events, but I reallycame to this conclusion that we
had to reach medicalprofessionals, that we had this
gaping void of lifestylemedicine and food as medicine in
(08:30):
medical education right, andthat until we really got medical
professionals on board, thattoo often individuals may see a
documentary, read a book, listento a podcast, feel led to
change their behavior, but ifthey go to their unenlightened
medical professional who's beentrained in an allopathic,
diagnosed the ill prescribed thepill right and a lifetime of
(08:53):
disease management, you know,too often, you know I will say
that a doctor's word is secondonly to God's and so often they
hold the trump card right andthat we really had to reach
clinicians.
And that was why ACLM wasestablished.
You know, 20 years ago.
It was established by visionaryphysicians, led by founding
(09:17):
president John Kelly, who lookedaround and saw that there was
no other field of medicine thatrepresented evidence-based
therapeutic lifestyleintervention to treat and even
reverse already existing disease, knowing that if the dose was
efficacious for treatment,reversal prevention was the
natural byproduct.
(09:37):
And that really, you know, setthe wheels in motion.
And, interestingly enough, andyou know, I joined ACLM in 2014.
And we did a member survey in2015.
Now, back then, like in 2015,we probably had 500 members by
the time 2015 rolled around.
But we asked them you know,what drew you to ACLM?
(09:57):
Now this is 2015.
And we listed.
You know, was it a book, was ita documentary?
Was it a class in medicalschool?
Was it a?
You know?
Just tell us.
Over 50% of the respondentsback in 2015 said it was the
documentary.
Forks Over Knives.
Yes, and that that was what was, you know, had kind of led them
.
But now, my goodness, had kindof led them.
(10:24):
But now, my goodness, there'sso many, as you say, from Rich
Roll to your podcast, to so manypodcasts and incredible books
and so many more researchstudies and papers that are
published from the Lancet toJAMA, it's undeniable.
I mean the gentleman whom wejust gave a special recognition
award to today, dr Ali Mukdad,who is head of the Institute of
(10:44):
Health Metrics and Evaluationout of Seattle Washington
University of Washington, thelargest repository of
healthcare-related data in theworld, funded by the Gates
Foundation, and you know some ofAli has been the one that's
been championing, saying thatit's lifestyle that's the
leading cause of disease anddeath, and you know what people
(11:07):
are and are not eating, sort ofat the, at the tip of that
particular sphere.
Ellen Brown (11:12):
So what?
I guess this is sort of adouble edged question.
You can answer how you see fit.
Is there's obviously beentremendous moment, right?
Yeah, I mean, if you look atthe trajectory of a attendance
to this conference be the numberof diplomats, you know just
sports or all of it, theadoption of it but at the same
time, like I guess, I would ask,what do you think has been sort
(11:34):
of that magic?
And then how do we keep thatgoing?
Right?
But then the other piece to itis what is the friction that we
need to remove?
Right, like, how can we makethis?
Because this really should be,I feel like every when we talk
about advanced primary care,right, and all of these new
primary care models, it's likehello, everybody should be board
(11:55):
certified in this.
This should be part of the corecurriculum, or I mean's, you
know no, no question about it.
Susan Benigas (12:00):
I mean even aclm stated vision statement is a
nation and world whereinlifestyle medicine is the
foundation of health and allhealth care.
Ellen Brown (12:09):
Right it's about, so I get knuckles on again.
This is yeah, absolutelyapplause.
Can you do okay?
Susan Benigas (12:15):
well, it's true, you know it's.
Uh, I like to say all thingsold are made new again, right,
hippocrates and all of hisinfinite wisdom, over 2,500
years ago.
So you look up so many of hisquotes, probably the most
notable being let food be thymedicine and medicine be thy
food, right, and so many of thefamous quotes that are
(12:35):
attributed to him.
Clearly, you know, the fatherof medicine knew that.
Again, it's the, if you just hewas really preaching lifestyle
medicine.
I mean, there's no questionabout it, but we really strayed
so far from that, becausethere's immense profit in
disease right you know there'simmense profit in disease.
(13:03):
The system has really beendesigned, even from quality
measures to you know so much, toreally support a disease and
disability care system.
And hey, thank goodness formodern medicine, I mean, if you
need acute care absolutely Imean, you know, we've got the
best health system in the worldbut so while we've done an
amazing job by and large of likepreventing infectious disease,
we have done a horrific job ofpreventing chronic disease and,
(13:25):
quite frankly, it has been.
I think COVID-19 did more to.
You know.
It really shined a bright lighton the urgent need to address
the underlying conditions thatexacerbated the virus's most
harmful effects, and what werethose?
Yeah, those underlyingconditions were lifestyle
related chronic diseases and thedisproportionate impact on our
(13:48):
underserved communities.
So it really made the awarenessabout and urgency for lifestyle
medicine root cause treatmentall the more relevant, and so we
our fall conference in the fallof 2019, we had 3,500 members.
By the time we had our nextlive in-person conference in the
(14:09):
fall of 2022, we had grown from3,500 to 9,500 members, and
that was during the time ofCOVID, when most medical
professional associations werebleeding members.
But I think that now you can'tput the genie back in the bottle
right, and this is such a goodthing that there's such
awareness about amongst all the.
(14:30):
I mean look at the.
We have nearly 4,500 registeredfor this conference.
Ellen Brown (14:35):
I mean the registrations.
Susan Benigas (14:36):
we've had several hundred that have come in just
since yesterday and it'sglobally.
64 countries are represented inour registrants and in our
Lifestyle Medicine GlobalAlliance that we founded back in
2016, when there were only fiveLifestyle Medicine Medical
Professional Associations aroundthe world.
There are now nearly 30 onevery continent around the world
(14:58):
, because it's the burden ofnon-communicable chronic disease
that is not just facing theUnited States.
I mean we've exported thestandard American diet, and so
now the world is reallysuffering under the burden.
But the good news is hey, Imean, hey look, the Reverse
Mullet podcast is tuned intothis.
That's right, as are thethousands of physicians and
(15:21):
medical professionals who arehere, and this you know.
Aclm is more than a medicalprofessional association, it's a
transformation catalyst right,that is such a magnet for
purpose, passion driven medicalprofessionals and healthcare
executives who understand what'sat stake, and they are
committed to being the changethey know that we so desperately
(15:44):
need.
And so ACLM, bringing everyonetogether, we represent a
galvanized force for change, andit is unstoppable.
Ellen Brown (15:51):
Like I said, your whole organization is a unicorn.
Like we say we're alwayslooking for the unicorns in
healthcare and I'm like ACLM.
The entity is a unicorn.
It's like at the global level.
Dave Pavlik (16:02):
So this is the 20th anniversary.
It is so what do the next 20years look like?
Hey, you know what.
Susan Benigas (16:06):
I think we're coming into the bend of the
hockey stick right, because whenI joined 10 years ago, we had
one part-time event coordinatorand 380 members, and for the
first 10 years, by and large,aclm had been a volunteer
physician-led organization andwhen it started, it was MD, do,
phd only.
And then, in 2012, reallyrecognizing the power of the
(16:30):
interdisciplinary team, openedits doors to all members of the
team.
Ellen Brown (16:36):
So I feel like in those years right because we
were really, we've always beenreally involved with, you know,
with payment transformation, sothe early years of CMMI and
value-based program development,and you know we were part of
organizations doing the samework that ACOs were doing before
there were ACOs, before therewere acronyms right yes.
And so, and then that it's thatsame timeframe, do you think
(16:57):
that that is one of thoseexamples of when that practice
transformation concept came intohealthcare?
Then all of a sudden peoplelike wait, lifestyle medicine is
, is, is you know?
Susan Benigas (17:07):
you know it's so interesting.
I do say that you know theprobably the best thing that
came out of the affordable careact was the accountable care
organization.
Right, because it finally wasgoing to incentivize, you
knowize, superior outcomes andcost containment.
The problem was it was sort oflike everybody was doing the
same thing over and over again,expecting a different result.
Ellen Brown (17:28):
Well, we know what that leads to, right.
Susan Benigas (17:30):
And so we have been like on the sidelines going
yeah, yeah, yeah, hey, we lovethe ACO model, but value-based
care you cannot.
It is impossible to optimizevalue-based care without a
lifestyle medicine firstapproach.
Unless you're identifying anderadicating the root cause of
disease, it's impossible.
So now that we've got thequintuple aim right, it's like
(17:52):
you cannot achieve the quintupleaim, you cannot manifest whole
person health, you cannotoptimize value-based care or
achieve patient-centered care orhigh-value care without a
lifestyle medicine-firstapproach to healthcare.
So I mean the momentum is thereand the time is now, and there
(18:14):
is really an awakening now thatthis is possible and it's being
done in a way where, gosh, wehave very in-depth reimbursement
roadmaps and we're seeingclinical practice models and I
mean people are doing this.
We have doctors out there whileothers are saying oh, this
needs to happen.
We're doing it.
(18:34):
We've got thousands of peoplehere who, every day, in every
state across this country,thousands of people here who,
every day, in every state acrossthis country, they are
implementing intensivetherapeutic lifestyle change in
ways that people areexperiencing health restoration
and lifestyle.
Medicine reignites the passionfor why most went into medicine
(18:55):
to begin with to become truehealers.
Dave Pavlik (18:57):
Every single practitioner we've sat down with
has stories about thistransformation.
Susan Benigas (19:02):
Oh yeah, even members of our board of
directors who say that theywould no longer be practicing
medicine if it weren't for lm.
Ellen Brown (19:08):
Not found aclm and lifestyle medicine, no, I mean
we have clients in this room whowe are helping with payment
like we are helping themnegotiate and, you know, make
sure exactly to that pointbecause I I actually, from my
perspective, having been on thedark side for so long I believe
that the barrier for this is thepayment model at the large
(19:30):
health system and at the largehealth plan level, that when you
find that vertically integratedkind of more community-based,
it's an easier piece, but it'snot difficult.
When you sit down with the CFOand you have the right
stakeholders in the room and youexplain, you show the massive
savings.
There's just not a there's nota common knowledge yet.
And so we're here we arechampions.
Susan Benigas (19:53):
Our firm is totally committed.
We're so glad that you're doingwhat you're doing because you
know, when we think about itit's like for whom is there
immense profit in optimal health?
Ellen Brown (20:02):
Well, we know it's self-funded employers.
Susan Benigas (20:04):
Number one right, absolutely.
It's self-funded employers,because you know, for them
incentives are totally aligned.
Ellen Brown (20:09):
But they need those health care delivery models to
deploy.
They do, and so that's why youhave to find those health
systems or other delivery caremodels are saying okay, I'm
willing to step up and do thisand partner with you as the
employer or the government orwhoever the insurer.
I'm willing, like Blue ZonesHealth right when it's like.
(20:30):
I'm willing to create that caremodel and take that financial
risk and be your partner todeploy this model for you, to
save the money so that you canreinvest it.
So we're in.
Susan Benigas (20:40):
Well, and now that we have, you know, thrown,
we already have, by the time theend of the year comes, we will
have over probably around 6,000certified medical professionals
in the.
United States alone, and thefact that we can.
You know, what COVID showed usas well, is that the deployment
of even lifestyle medicine,shared medical appointments, the
(21:03):
efficacy is equal to or evensuperior, when delivered, you
know, virtually than even inperson, and so the scalability
is there for us to do what weneed to do, and so you know, the
time is now.
It is.
Dave Pavlik (21:17):
Time is now so well , thank you for joining us,
Susan, Well thank you forjoining us.
Susan Benigas (21:20):
Susan Well, thank you.
Dave Pavlik (21:22):
Thank you for having us here Such a pleasure.
Susan Benigas (21:23):
Thank you for being here at Lifestyle Medicine
2024, helping to celebrate the20th anniversary of ACLN.
Ellen Brown (21:29):
That's fantastic Way to bring it home.
Thank you, okay.
Catalyst for transformationyeah, applause, applause, yay.
Susan Benigas (21:36):
Thank you so much .
Well, I hope you.
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