December 13, 2024 • 14 mins
The role of food in health is fundamental and the government plays a pivotal role in ensuring that our food system delivers health to 330 million Americans. The food industry and healthcare industry operate in silos so it was refreshing to learn Jim Jones, Deputy Commissioner for Human Foods at the FDA would be speaking at HLTH. He joined us for an eye-opening conversation about the FDA's groundbreaking initiatives aimed at reshaping how we consume and perceive nutrition. From finalizing the criteria for labeling foods as "healthy" to the development of a consumer-friendly logo, Jim gives us a sneak peek into the future of food labeling. He also sheds light on the ambitious phase two sodium reduction goals, targeting a significant cut in sodium levels in packaged and restaurant foods. As well as an exciting proposal for front-of-pack labeling that promises to make it easier for consumers to spot high levels of sodium, added sugar, and saturated fats.
But that's not all. We also take you beyond U.S. borders to explore international health policies that have proven effective in enhancing longevity and quality of life. Special cohost Erin Martin ensures we discuss the vital role that food quality plays in healthspan and how implementing successful international strategies like front-of-pack labeling could lead to better aging outcomes here at home. Join us as we envision a future where the United States not only learns from global practices but also leads in innovative food policy changes that promise to improve public health across the nation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Reverse Mullet Healthcare
Podcast.
I am Ellen Brown, with myspecial co-host, erin Martin,
and we are here, we get to talkabout food and we're super
excited.
Actually, justin's walking in,so come on in, Justin, but
anyways so super excited becausewe're here for a Live at Health
edition.
But, anyways, we so superexcited because we're here for a
live at health edition.
(00:26):
But, on all seriousness, you'reone of the most, you're one of
the guests I'm most excited totalk to, because we are
extraordinarily passionate aboutthe need for food to be at the
center of health, not just asmedicine, as a prescription, but
at the core of how we move awayfrom sick care as our only
option to something where wehave health care.
(00:46):
And so when we had theopportunity to talk to you, I
was super excited.
So, jim, without further ado, Iam Jim Jones.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I'm the deputy commissioner for human foods at
the Food and Drug Administrationand just to riff on your first
comment about food being part ofhealth care, we, just about a
year ago, when we announced thishuman foods program, we
announced that our vision wasthat food should be a vehicle
for wealth.
So I think we're very alignedon that.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Exactly Quality I have a rather loud voice on
LinkedIn about the need to, andI mean in all seriousness.
I was in Boston last week atKatie Stebbins at the Tufts Food
and Nutrition Institute ofInnovation, the council meeting,
and my two partners, dave andJustin, were in Tulsa with Erin
(01:38):
and at her Think Regenerationevent.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah, Advancing food is medicine.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
So we take it very seriously that if we're going to
be part of a value-based care,outcomes-based transformation in
this industry, then we reallyhave to put food at the center
of that.
So tell us what you're workingon and then we'll ask you our
one question about change.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Sure, so we have a number of really exciting
activities right now, and whatwe refer to as the nutrition
space.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
yep, um giving you your mic.
Sorry, I'm like doing this realtime, appreciate it the.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Uh, I'm gonna start sort of with one that's about to
hit a milestone.
We're we're about to finalize arule that will describe the
parameters for when a food cansay that it's healthy.
Okay, so all fruit, freshfruits and vegetables are
eligible to be healthy, but inthe packaged food arena we're
going to be defining what has tobe in a product to be healthy
(02:33):
and limits for how much ofcertain things we don't want too
much of it's fantastic Likesodium, saturated fat and sugars
.
So once we've defined what cansay it's healthy, we're then
going to follow that with thedevelopment of a logo so that
consumers can start to see onpackaging some consistency
around how they can be able torecognize.
(02:54):
Exactly.
It won't just be based on whatthe manufacturer wants to say in
the label.
They'll be able to put a logoon it so you'll be able to
identify products across productcategories, within product
categories.
What's healthy.
So that's one thing we've gotgoing on that we're really
excited about.
We've had a number ofconversations here just today
with retailers who are veryinterested in helping us create
(03:15):
more consumer demand around that.
So that's very exciting.
Another activity we have goingon is that we have just
announced in September isproposed so we're taking comment
from all stakeholders right nowwhat we refer to as phase two
of our sodium reduction goals.
These are voluntary goals.
They relate to all packagedfoods, 163 different categories
(03:39):
of food, both packaged andrestaurant.
And it's phase two becausephase one just ended last April
and that was a two and a halfyear goal to achieve a 13%
reduction in average sodiumconsumption by Americans.
Americans consume way too muchsodium in their diet and at the
(03:59):
end of phase one we still don'thave we're about a year away
from having a full picture ofhow well we did.
We have a because there's abouta data lag of a year.
The early data that we haveindicates about 40 percent of
the categories are alreadymeeting or are close to meeting
the first reduction, which iswhy we decided we were in good
(04:20):
position to do a secondreduction.
This phase two set this, thesecond group of reductions.
Phase two will will wouldreduce, if successful, another
13 percent uh of the averageconsumption of sodium in the
diet.
So that's another exciting uminitiative we have underway.
And then the last one and I'lllet you guys start the question
because we got a lot- going on.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
My blood pressure is already lower as we speak.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah, it, it is around front of pack labeling
and that would be a proposedrule.
A number of countries aroundthe world have front of pack
labeling.
We have a schema we're planningto propose in the next several
months where you bring from theback of the label to the front
of the label, in a way that'svery easily understood by the
consumer, around three nutrients.
(05:03):
I say in air quotes that weknow Americans are consuming too
much of Sodium, added sugar andsaturated.
You put that on the front ofthe label with some descriptor
related to it.
So there's three things we havegoing on right now that I think
have a great opportunity toreally move the needle in the
nutrition space.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
And so you talked a lot about displaying and kind of
reducing sodium and looking andbeing able to identify
healthier products.
How about?
You know we've got a bigdifferentiation.
You know the Kellogg's issue isreally hot right now about how
in other countries some of theingredients you know are safer
in other countries in the sameproducts and they're not as safe
(05:39):
in America.
So what is being done atlooking at that and why is that?
And how can we also warn people?
We are saying this is healthy,but how are we going to assess
if something is maybe, maybemore dangerous for them?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
So chemical safety, which is another part of our
program.
So chemicals have to beauthorized by the FDA for use in
food, and so that has beenongoing for the last 60 years.
Historically, fda has notlooked at its initial
authorization except for in whatI would describe as an ad hoc
(06:14):
way.
Every once in a while achemical gets so much attention
in the media that FDA will goand take a look at it.
We are working right now tostand up a systematic
post-market process where we areroutinely identifying chemicals
that we think warrant areevaluation.
Something has happened sincethe original authorization, like
(06:35):
new data has been generated.
We know more about a chemicalthan we did than the original
authorization.
That would lead us tore-evaluate it, and so we are
planning on putting in placewe've got the early work
underway to have a systematicpost-market.
It just becomes part of ourprogram that we're routinely
going back and looking atpreviously authorized chemicals.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Do you see a universe where there's fewer chemicals
in the future as part of thatprocess, or is it just
evaluation and it's notnecessarily?
Here we're trying to reduce thenumber of overall chemicals.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
So our objective is that chemicals that are
authorized for use in food besafe.
So I've done this in two otherpre and post-market chemical
review programs and inevitablythey will ultimately, based on
an assessment, be determined notto be safe and they will be
removed from the market.
But I don't prejudge any ofthem until we've actually done
(07:30):
it.
The objective is that anythingthat's authorized is safe.
Something's not safe after anassessment, you take action to
make sure it's either removedfrom the market or used in a way
that is safe.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
So I'm going to flip it more into an opportunity
perspective and say so I'minvolved in another podcast.
Somehow I went from never in mylife having any desire to be
part of a podcast and now bepart of two of them.
But it's the Food is HealthRevolution and we had Eric Smith
(08:02):
from Audacious on and you knowhis whole objective is to create
a system to be able tocategorize and measure
nutritional density.
So it goes beyond just theingredients in there, but the
nutritional density.
So it goes beyond just theingredients in there, but the,
the nutritional density that'sinvolved in those greens, which
I think is an interesting right.
So do you see opportunities,not specifically with audacious,
(08:23):
but just when you talk aboutpackaging and labeling and
really engaging consumers togive them information?
Like, do you see a vision wheremaybe someday I understand
policy has to be enacted but youknow where people can really be
empowered to understand theirfood better?
When it's shelf stable, whenit's you know?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
so.
So our, our, our healthydefinition captures that concept
of density of foods we are.
We want people to be consumingthat you know.
We want people to be consuming.
My view is that we got 330million Americans that we really
want to improve their nutrition, and I want to do it for
(09:01):
everybody.
I want to be able to giveeverybody the information, and
to me that means we've got towork really hard at presenting
information that is accessibleto everyone.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
You should not have to be studying this at all.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
You shouldn't have to spend a minute of your time
studying this question.
It should just be obvious.
And so, in our work onfront-of-pack labeling, we
sampled over.
We surveyed 9,000 people inthis country and we oversampled
people who are known to be nothave the same level of nutrition
(09:37):
literacy, so rural americans umpoorer americans and because we
want whatever, whatever labelwe come up with to be understood
by everybody, universally,universally, so you don't have
to do a ton of education.
You see it, you know what we'retrying to say exactly and so I
think healthy.
(09:58):
The healthy symbol is similar.
Similarly, everybody shouldunderstand we're trying to
communicate, yeah, um so, andthat's, that's fundamentally
what we're trying to do so.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I know we only have like three more minutes and I'm
being respectful.
I'm looking at your, your presssecretary, saying I want to be
respect because he said you areand I am I actually, I am very
grateful that you were able tosqueeze this in, so I will be
very respectful of that.
But I'll just ask you, you know, I think it's amazing that
(10:27):
you're here at health, becausehealth is like tech and you know
, it's kind of the opposite ofhealth, of really what
healthcare should be.
This is like the sick careconference.
You know, in terms of all thetools, what do you think?
First of all, I love thatyou're here To me, it makes a
statement.
But secondly, if I ask you, youknow, what do you think could
affect real change in healthcare?
Speaker 3 (10:53):
All caps, all caps, real.
What's the trick?
What I'm, what I'm excitedabout?
So and I was on a panel thismorning about it and it relates
to tech and nutrition.
We're working with Instacart tohelp them be able to help their
customers quickly understandwhat foods that they are buying
through Instacart that are goodfor them, and I think that the
(11:17):
technology is available rightnow and there is generally going
to be in the private sector.
Fda is not going to inventthese products of.
Working with companies who havethis is part of their mission
to see how our knowledge of theFDA we have a lot of knowledge
around nutrition, chemicalsafety, how that can then be
translated in these technologiesto help consumers buy and get
(11:43):
healthier food, and I think thatthat can play a huge role in
how people get healthier?
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
You guys have any last comments?
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Apologize for my tardiness.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
But you jumped in smooth.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
It's like just smooth as silk.
You came right in and it wasall good, but you jumped in
smooth as like, just smooth assilk.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
You came right in and it was all good, but maybe just
like one.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Last final question is you know what do you think
maybe we could learn from othercountries?
You know that maybe have youknow different quality standards
.
What do you think we couldlearn from them that we could
incorporate them here in the US,because there's certainly
people with better health inother countries?
Speaker 1 (12:22):
And so I'd love to see some of that incorporated.
Oh, you mean the Commonwealthstudy that I've heard cited like
25 times because of ourposition at the bottom right
quadrant compared to the othercountries with health outcomes?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, and I certainly like, from a longevity
standpoint, my background's inlong-term care I'm a
gerontologist and and food's gotthis huge ripple effect on
health span longevity.
And I know in other countriespeople are aging better because
I've been there and I've seen it.
Just wanting to understandmaybe how we could incorporate
some of those values here in theUS.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Well, two of the initiatives I described front of
pack labeling and voluntarysodium reduction goals are
things that we've learned fromother countries' success.
Both of them came from othercountries having done such, and
basically that's where the ideascame from.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Well, that's good to know.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I hope we can have you for a full episode.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
And so we're not like speed dating, but we really
appreciate you making the timeon the way to the airport.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
We do, thank you.
Thank you so much.
All right, thanks, jim you.
Welcome to the Reverse Mullet Healthcare
Podcast.
I am Ellen Brown, with myspecial co-host, erin Martin,
and we are here, we get to talkabout food and we're super
excited.
Actually, justin's walking in,so come on in, Justin, but
anyways so super excited becausewe're here for a Live at Health
edition.
But, anyways, we so superexcited because we're here for a
live at health edition.
(00:26):
But, on all seriousness, you'reone of the most, you're one of
the guests I'm most excited totalk to, because we are
extraordinarily passionate aboutthe need for food to be at the
center of health, not just asmedicine, as a prescription, but
at the core of how we move awayfrom sick care as our only
option to something where wehave health care.
(00:46):
And so when we had theopportunity to talk to you, I
was super excited.
So, jim, without further ado, Iam Jim Jones.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I'm the deputy commissioner for human foods at
the Food and Drug Administrationand just to riff on your first
comment about food being part ofhealth care, we, just about a
year ago, when we announced thishuman foods program, we
announced that our vision wasthat food should be a vehicle
for wealth.
So I think we're very alignedon that.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Exactly Quality I have a rather loud voice on
LinkedIn about the need to, andI mean in all seriousness.
I was in Boston last week atKatie Stebbins at the Tufts Food
and Nutrition Institute ofInnovation, the council meeting,
and my two partners, dave andJustin, were in Tulsa with Erin
(01:38):
and at her Think Regenerationevent.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah, Advancing food is medicine.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
So we take it very seriously that if we're going to
be part of a value-based care,outcomes-based transformation in
this industry, then we reallyhave to put food at the center
of that.
So tell us what you're workingon and then we'll ask you our
one question about change.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Sure, so we have a number of really exciting
activities right now, and whatwe refer to as the nutrition
space.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
yep, um giving you your mic.
Sorry, I'm like doing this realtime, appreciate it the.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Uh, I'm gonna start sort of with one that's about to
hit a milestone.
We're we're about to finalize arule that will describe the
parameters for when a food cansay that it's healthy.
Okay, so all fruit, freshfruits and vegetables are
eligible to be healthy, but inthe packaged food arena we're
going to be defining what has tobe in a product to be healthy
(02:33):
and limits for how much ofcertain things we don't want too
much of it's fantastic Likesodium, saturated fat and sugars
.
So once we've defined what cansay it's healthy, we're then
going to follow that with thedevelopment of a logo so that
consumers can start to see onpackaging some consistency
around how they can be able torecognize.
(02:54):
Exactly.
It won't just be based on whatthe manufacturer wants to say in
the label.
They'll be able to put a logoon it so you'll be able to
identify products across productcategories, within product
categories.
What's healthy.
So that's one thing we've gotgoing on that we're really
excited about.
We've had a number ofconversations here just today
with retailers who are veryinterested in helping us create
(03:15):
more consumer demand around that.
So that's very exciting.
Another activity we have goingon is that we have just
announced in September isproposed so we're taking comment
from all stakeholders right nowwhat we refer to as phase two
of our sodium reduction goals.
These are voluntary goals.
They relate to all packagedfoods, 163 different categories
(03:39):
of food, both packaged andrestaurant.
And it's phase two becausephase one just ended last April
and that was a two and a halfyear goal to achieve a 13%
reduction in average sodiumconsumption by Americans.
Americans consume way too muchsodium in their diet and at the
(03:59):
end of phase one we still don'thave we're about a year away
from having a full picture ofhow well we did.
We have a because there's abouta data lag of a year.
The early data that we haveindicates about 40 percent of
the categories are alreadymeeting or are close to meeting
the first reduction, which iswhy we decided we were in good
(04:20):
position to do a secondreduction.
This phase two set this, thesecond group of reductions.
Phase two will will wouldreduce, if successful, another
13 percent uh of the averageconsumption of sodium in the
diet.
So that's another exciting uminitiative we have underway.
And then the last one and I'lllet you guys start the question
because we got a lot- going on.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
My blood pressure is already lower as we speak.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah, it, it is around front of pack labeling
and that would be a proposedrule.
A number of countries aroundthe world have front of pack
labeling.
We have a schema we're planningto propose in the next several
months where you bring from theback of the label to the front
of the label, in a way that'svery easily understood by the
consumer, around three nutrients.
(05:03):
I say in air quotes that weknow Americans are consuming too
much of Sodium, added sugar andsaturated.
You put that on the front ofthe label with some descriptor
related to it.
So there's three things we havegoing on right now that I think
have a great opportunity toreally move the needle in the
nutrition space.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
And so you talked a lot about displaying and kind of
reducing sodium and looking andbeing able to identify
healthier products.
How about?
You know we've got a bigdifferentiation.
You know the Kellogg's issue isreally hot right now about how
in other countries some of theingredients you know are safer
in other countries in the sameproducts and they're not as safe
(05:39):
in America.
So what is being done atlooking at that and why is that?
And how can we also warn people?
We are saying this is healthy,but how are we going to assess
if something is maybe, maybemore dangerous for them?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
So chemical safety, which is another part of our
program.
So chemicals have to beauthorized by the FDA for use in
food, and so that has beenongoing for the last 60 years.
Historically, fda has notlooked at its initial
authorization except for in whatI would describe as an ad hoc
(06:14):
way.
Every once in a while achemical gets so much attention
in the media that FDA will goand take a look at it.
We are working right now tostand up a systematic
post-market process where we areroutinely identifying chemicals
that we think warrant areevaluation.
Something has happened sincethe original authorization, like
(06:35):
new data has been generated.
We know more about a chemicalthan we did than the original
authorization.
That would lead us tore-evaluate it, and so we are
planning on putting in placewe've got the early work
underway to have a systematicpost-market.
It just becomes part of ourprogram that we're routinely
going back and looking atpreviously authorized chemicals.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Do you see a universe where there's fewer chemicals
in the future as part of thatprocess, or is it just
evaluation and it's notnecessarily?
Here we're trying to reduce thenumber of overall chemicals.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
So our objective is that chemicals that are
authorized for use in food besafe.
So I've done this in two otherpre and post-market chemical
review programs and inevitablythey will ultimately, based on
an assessment, be determined notto be safe and they will be
removed from the market.
But I don't prejudge any ofthem until we've actually done
(07:30):
it.
The objective is that anythingthat's authorized is safe.
Something's not safe after anassessment, you take action to
make sure it's either removedfrom the market or used in a way
that is safe.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
So I'm going to flip it more into an opportunity
perspective and say so I'minvolved in another podcast.
Somehow I went from never in mylife having any desire to be
part of a podcast and now bepart of two of them.
But it's the Food is HealthRevolution and we had Eric Smith
(08:02):
from Audacious on and you knowhis whole objective is to create
a system to be able tocategorize and measure
nutritional density.
So it goes beyond just theingredients in there, but the
nutritional density.
So it goes beyond just theingredients in there, but the,
the nutritional density that'sinvolved in those greens, which
I think is an interesting right.
So do you see opportunities,not specifically with audacious,
(08:23):
but just when you talk aboutpackaging and labeling and
really engaging consumers togive them information?
Like, do you see a vision wheremaybe someday I understand
policy has to be enacted but youknow where people can really be
empowered to understand theirfood better?
When it's shelf stable, whenit's you know?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
so.
So our, our, our healthydefinition captures that concept
of density of foods we are.
We want people to be consumingthat you know.
We want people to be consuming.
My view is that we got 330million Americans that we really
want to improve their nutrition, and I want to do it for
(09:01):
everybody.
I want to be able to giveeverybody the information, and
to me that means we've got towork really hard at presenting
information that is accessibleto everyone.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
You should not have to be studying this at all.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
You shouldn't have to spend a minute of your time
studying this question.
It should just be obvious.
And so, in our work onfront-of-pack labeling, we
sampled over.
We surveyed 9,000 people inthis country and we oversampled
people who are known to be nothave the same level of nutrition
(09:37):
literacy, so rural americans umpoorer americans and because we
want whatever, whatever labelwe come up with to be understood
by everybody, universally,universally, so you don't have
to do a ton of education.
You see it, you know what we'retrying to say exactly and so I
think healthy.
(09:58):
The healthy symbol is similar.
Similarly, everybody shouldunderstand we're trying to
communicate, yeah, um so, andthat's, that's fundamentally
what we're trying to do so.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I know we only have like three more minutes and I'm
being respectful.
I'm looking at your, your presssecretary, saying I want to be
respect because he said you areand I am I actually, I am very
grateful that you were able tosqueeze this in, so I will be
very respectful of that.
But I'll just ask you, you know, I think it's amazing that
(10:27):
you're here at health, becausehealth is like tech and you know
, it's kind of the opposite ofhealth, of really what
healthcare should be.
This is like the sick careconference.
You know, in terms of all thetools, what do you think?
First of all, I love thatyou're here To me, it makes a
statement.
But secondly, if I ask you, youknow, what do you think could
affect real change in healthcare?
Speaker 3 (10:53):
All caps, all caps, real.
What's the trick?
What I'm, what I'm excitedabout?
So and I was on a panel thismorning about it and it relates
to tech and nutrition.
We're working with Instacart tohelp them be able to help their
customers quickly understandwhat foods that they are buying
through Instacart that are goodfor them, and I think that the
(11:17):
technology is available rightnow and there is generally going
to be in the private sector.
Fda is not going to inventthese products of.
Working with companies who havethis is part of their mission
to see how our knowledge of theFDA we have a lot of knowledge
around nutrition, chemicalsafety, how that can then be
translated in these technologiesto help consumers buy and get
(11:43):
healthier food, and I think thatthat can play a huge role in
how people get healthier?
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
You guys have any last comments?
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Apologize for my tardiness.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
But you jumped in smooth.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
It's like just smooth as silk.
You came right in and it wasall good, but you jumped in
smooth as like, just smooth assilk.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
You came right in and it was all good, but maybe just
like one.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Last final question is you know what do you think
maybe we could learn from othercountries?
You know that maybe have youknow different quality standards
.
What do you think we couldlearn from them that we could
incorporate them here in the US,because there's certainly
people with better health inother countries?
Speaker 1 (12:22):
And so I'd love to see some of that incorporated.
Oh, you mean the Commonwealthstudy that I've heard cited like
25 times because of ourposition at the bottom right
quadrant compared to the othercountries with health outcomes?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, and I certainly like, from a longevity
standpoint, my background's inlong-term care I'm a
gerontologist and and food's gotthis huge ripple effect on
health span longevity.
And I know in other countriespeople are aging better because
I've been there and I've seen it.
Just wanting to understandmaybe how we could incorporate
some of those values here in theUS.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Well, two of the initiatives I described front of
pack labeling and voluntarysodium reduction goals are
things that we've learned fromother countries' success.
Both of them came from othercountries having done such, and
basically that's where the ideascame from.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Well, that's good to know.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I hope we can have you for a full episode.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
And so we're not like speed dating, but we really
appreciate you making the timeon the way to the airport.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
We do, thank you.
Thank you so much.
All right, thanks, jim you.
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