June 22, 2025 • 54 mins
Let me know your thoughts on the show and what topic you would like me to discuss next.
Welcome to the Revolutionary Man Podcast! In this episode, host Alain Dumonceaux explores the often-overlooked and misunderstood challenges facing men and boys today. Joined by guest Jack Kammer, an advocate and author addressing male gender issues, they discuss societal expectations, stereotypes, and biases that impact men's mental health, education, and relationships. Jack shares personal experiences, insights from his career in social work, and discusses the concepts of 'toxic masculinity' and 'toxic femininity.' They further explore the importance of joint custody during divorces, the significance of emotional expression for men, and ways to create a more equitable society by redefining traditional gender roles. Visit malefriendlymedia.com for more resources and insights from Jack Kammer. Tune in to learn how addressing male gender issues can contribute to a more balanced and equitable society for all.
Key moments in this episode:
04:00 Jack Kammer's Journey: Death and Rebirth Moments
05:53 Challenging Gender Stereotypes
09:15 The Evolution of Gender Equality
11:40 Parental Roles and Societal Expectations
24:53 The Impact of Divorce on Fatherhood
30:03 Understanding Joint Custody
34:20 Challenges in Joint Custody and Mediation
37:47 Toxic Masculinity and Femininity
41:51 Breaking Gender Roles and Stereotypes
49:30 Practical Advice for Men
How to reach Jack:
🕸️: https://www.malefriendlymedia.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/malefriendlymedia/
📺: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrLW85qrmP5ezOvz1M--INw
Thanks for listening to the Revolutionary Man Podcast. For more information about our programs, please use the links below to learn more about us. It could be the step that changes your life.
Want to be a guest on The Revolutionary Man Podcast? Send Alain Dumonceaux a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/revolutionarymanpodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know, imagine a world where half of humanity's
struggles are often overlooked,dismissed or even minimized.
While the focus on women'sissues is being transformative
and necessary, the experience ofmen and boys, be it at their
mental health, struggles witheducation or societal
expectations, are frequentlysidelined.
What happens when these untoldstories are brought to light?
(00:22):
How does addressing the malegender issues contribute to a
more balanced and equitablesociety?
In today's episode, we're goingto explore this complex and
often misunderstood challengesfacing men, and especially boys,
today, and we're going touncover societal structures that
perpetuate these struggles anddiscuss what can be done to
(00:42):
create real, lasting change.
But before we jump into today'sdiscussion, let's address
something else that many of usstruggle with.
It's the feeling of being outof alignment.
The demands of life can pull usin countless directions,
leaving us overwhelmed,disconnected and unsure of how
to move forward.
That's why I want to tell youabout Living With Integrity.
This isn't just another program.
(01:03):
It's a proven path torediscovering your purpose,
rebuilding trust in yourrelationships and creating a
future that reflects who youtruly are.
It's about stepping into theman you know you were meant to
be.
If you've had enoughfrustration, stagnation and
uncertainty, this is youropportunity to take action.
I want you to go visitmemberstheawakenedmannet and
(01:24):
complete our free integritychallenge.
It's the first step to take andthe rewards are going to be
life-changing.
Live with intention, lead withintegrity, and let's get started
now.
Let's get on with today'sepisode.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
The average man today is sleepwalking through life,
many never reaching their truepotential, let alone ever
crossing the finish line toliving a purposeful life.
Yet the hunger still exists,albeit buried amidst his
cluttered mind, misguidedbeliefs and values that no
longer serve him.
It's time to align yourself forgreatness.
(02:02):
It's time to become arevolutionary man.
Stay strong, my brother.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Welcome everyone to the Revolutionary man Podcast.
I'm the founder of the Awakenedman Movement and your host,
alan DeMonsoul.
Are we truly addressing theroot causes of societal
challenges if we continue tooverlook the unique struggles of
men and boys?
And what changes might occur ifwe begin viewing gender issues
as human issues, where thewell-being of all individuals is
(02:33):
being interdependent?
The struggles for men and boysare deeply intertwined with
broader societal issues, andaddressing them isn't about
creating division.
It's about buildingunderstanding and equity for
everyone.
So today we're going to explorewhat it means to challenge the
status quo, confront biases,foster genuine progress, and
(02:54):
with that I'll allow me tointroduce my guest.
So Jack Kammer has his master'sin social work.
He's an author and advocatededicated to addressing male
gender issues and fostering amore inclusive dialogue around
societal challenges, and, withexperience as a correctional
officer and a parole andprobation agent in Baltimore,
jack's later worked with theNational Fatherhood Initiative.
(03:16):
This is a training prison staffto support incarcerated fathers
.
Love that work, jack and hefounded Working Well with Men, a
consultancy that provides toolsto help men build stronger
connections and relationships.
He's also the author, as I said, of multiple books and a
seasoned speaker.
Jack has consistentlychampioned the need for empathy
and balance and addressing theoften overlooked struggles faced
(03:39):
by men and boys.
I'm looking forward to thisconversation.
Welcome to the show jack.
How, how are things, my friend?
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Very well, Alan.
As my favorite uncle used tosay, I'm peachy.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Right on.
Love that, love that as Jack.
Here at the Revolutionary manpodcast, we always talk about
everyone being on their ownhero's journey or, as we like to
call it, a hero's quest.
So tell us about that point,that point point in the quest,
your death and rebirth moment,and how that experience shaped
you into the man you are todayand the work you're doing so I
(04:14):
think I've had a lot of deathand rebirth moments or maybe
they weren't complete deaths,maybe they were just near-death
experiences.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
I remember, remember the first one as a child Didn't
realize it had anything to dowith gender, because I didn't
know what gender was back then,didn't know about expectations,
sex roles, any of that stuff,stereotypes, biases.
But you know how it's wrong forpeople to say to little girls
gee, susie, you're really goodat math for a girl.
(04:45):
Or gee, mary, you're reallygood at sports for a girl.
What I used to hear and Ididn't really understand it for
what it was, but I just knewsomething wasn't quite right
what I used to to hear was gee,jack, you're really good with
(05:06):
babies for a boy.
And if we think of what we knowabout how wrong it is to tell a
girl that she's good at mathfor a girl, and a girl who's
good at sports to tell her she'sgood at sports for a girl, you
could get a an idea of how ayoung boy like me, who loved
(05:29):
babies, still loves babies feltwhen he heard you're really good
with babies for a boy, yeah,what.
So what's that mean?
Is there something wrong withme?
Am?
Am I an oddball?
Am I a weirdo?
Should I stay out of thisterritory?
It's mostly women around thebabies.
Maybe I don't belong here,maybe.
(05:52):
So that was.
It wasn't even a near-deathexperience, but it was like a
whack upside the head.
That something was wrong hereupside the head.
Yeah, that something was wronghere.
Then, much later, I was on aco-ed softball team and we would
(06:19):
play each week and after eachgame, after each week, we would
go out for beer and dancing anda little food.
And two weeks in a row I foundmyself sitting with two
different one each timeteammates, female teammates and
I'm a pretty good listener andthey were telling me tales of
woe about their boyfriends.
And they both ended theirstories, their tales of woe
(06:40):
about their boyfriends, with andso he's a real jerk, don't you
think he's a real jerk, don'tyou think?
And all I could say both timeswas maybe he's a jerk based on
what you're telling me.
From his point of view, maybeit looks like this.
And both times I offeredsomething that you and I would
(07:03):
probably see as perfectlyobviously within the realm of
real possibility of how thisfellow was thinking and feeling.
And both times they said oh mygod, I never thought of that and
it was.
That was the real kicker for meto start my radio show in 19
this was 1982, started the radioshow in 1983 to do a radio show
(07:26):
about what's really going onwith men, based on the idea that
the male point of view is notvery well understood.
Not that there was only onemale point of view.
Generally, looking at thingsfrom a man's point of view is
not very often done, and perhapsthat's at least in part because
(07:47):
the male point of view is notvery well articulated.
And it's not because I'm theonly articulate person that I
thought I could do that.
But I was one of the few peoplewho was willing to say I don't
care that this might make womenmad.
I'm going to say look, you'renot perfect, you don't
understand us perfectly anymorethan we understand you perfectly
.
So, come on, let's have a,let's have a dialogue, let's
(08:10):
have a partnership.
So that's, those are my twomain kickstarts.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
I love that.
What I appreciate excuse me,what I'm appreciating about your
story is how easily that we'vedone that and when we talked
about for a girl or for a boyand I remember that so vividly
about how we would stereotypeand demean one side or the other
.
I'm the oldest of five and thethird came around when I was six
(08:38):
years old.
So really from the time I wassix I was helping around the
house.
I was six, I was helping aroundthe house and I can recall like
having aunts and uncles notcome over and just be all so
impressed for a young boy to belooking after his brothers and
his sisters.
But I wouldn't have made thatconnection until you mentioned
it just now.
And how you get we havestereotypes built into,
(09:02):
hardwired into our society.
So in your work, have you beenfinding now that there's still
this stereotype and this, thesehardwired ideas, and, if so, how
can we start to break free fromsome of these?
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Well, we're going to need some time, first of all, if
you think about the women'smovement and all the work that
had to be done to dig out fromunder all of the stereotypes
about women, and how thosestereotypes reinforced ideas of
female inferiority and thecountervailing male superiority,
(09:37):
and how those stereotypes keptwomen out of certain occupations
that men not because they'rebad but because they're human
wanted to keep for themselves,especially because they had been
assigned the role of provider,and so they needed to have
access to money through theirjobs.
So that's the template for whatwe need to do, and it didn't
(10:02):
happen in 28 seconds.
The story, the description Ijust gave it, took 50, 75, 100
years, depending on how far youwant to go back.
What we're having trouble with,now that women are human, they
(10:29):
want what they want.
Sometimes they can be selfish,not because they're evil or bad
or horrible, but because they'rehuman.
They want to keep what they'vegot and they have in their
domain, like we had, oureconomic domain.
Women have in their domain avery wonderful thing, which is
(10:55):
primary access, primaryresponsibility for, for
relationships with children,kids, people who love you,
because they love you, you knowyou are important to them and
you care about them, which isvery much more enriching, to my
(11:19):
way of thinking.
Now, not every man will thinklike this.
Not every man wants to beheavily involved in the care and
love and nurturance of kids,although I think a lot of men
are more than they're able tofulfill.
So what I need to do, what mymission, is to point out that in
(11:44):
the early 60s, when bettyfordan you ever heard that name?
No, betty fordan is pretty muchcredited with starting the
current wave of feminism in 1963, she published a book called
the feminine mystique.
She went on to be, she went onto become the first president of
the national organization forWomen and she was very friendly
(12:06):
to men in her book.
Actually, I was surprised whenI read her book.
I thought she's going to bemean and demeaning and
(12:34):
condescending to men andequality.
In non-traditional femaledomains, domains they faced a
problem with some women sayingwait a second.
I'm hearing that men aretalking about equality too, and
a lot of men are saying itsounds good to them, but what
they're talking about is beingequal parents and we're not
(12:59):
really sure we want that,because we really love being the
primary parent now, just as menwho wanted to keep their union
jobs for themselves were notevil chauvinist pigs.
They were just human beingstrying to do their jobs and do
what's expected of them.
Women weren't bad for feelingthat way, but they did and still
(13:22):
do feel that way.
Many of them still do feel thatway now.
You will often hear peoplerespond by saying oh, that's not
true.
I don't know any women whodon't want their husbands to be
more involved around the house.
Now, what's that mean?
I want them to clean more, Iwant them to go shopping more, I
(13:44):
want them to cook more and Iwant them to be involved with
the kids more.
They'll admit to themselveseach other.
I don't really like it so muchwhen the kids come running to
him.
If they fall down and skintheir knee, I don't like him.
I don't like it when they runright past me and go daddy, now
it's not bad that they get alittle twinge of pain when that
happens.
It's only bad if they want totry to stop it from happening.
(14:09):
Right, it's only bad if theywant to keep the husband, the
father, from feeling that samesense of joy and compassion and
love and being needed and beingwanted at home in a way that's
very different from how they aretreated as part members of the
(14:31):
team.
You're an important part of theteam here at Acme Widget
Company.
It's just a whole differentthing, and women have primary
access to that and it is to ourdetriment as men.
Just as keeping women out ofbusiness was bad for them, kept
them from having access to moneyand external fulfillment, it's
(14:55):
bad for men to have a sort ofthe obverse.
It's not the reverse, but it'sperpendicular, it's in a
different dimension.
It's bad for us to be focusedjust on our provider role.
The revolution we need to haveas men is to be able to say look
, you want equality where wetraditionally were primary.
(15:21):
We got to have equality whereyou were traditionally primary.
And please stop saying that, oh, raising kids is so demeaning
and it's all about stinkydiapers, because you know that's
not true and we know that's nottrue.
It does involve stinky diapers,but that's not all.
But that's not all Now.
(15:43):
The beauty of this is that BettyFriedan in the 1980s said look,
the dialogue has gone on toolong in terms of women alone.
Let men join women at thecenter of the second stage,
because it is true that manywomen really do want men to be
(16:03):
more involved, not just at homecleaning up.
They really do want the men tobe at home taking care of the
kids, because some women good,wonderful women, who love being
mothers it's just not the mostfulfilling thing for them and
they want to be lawyers anddoctors and astronauts and
whatever they want to be.
(16:24):
But it's difficult for them ifthey have to worry about what's
going on at home or at thedaycare center.
And so the partnership comesfrom the fact that there are
guys like me.
I was in corporate life for awhile and I hated it.
I just hated it.
The politics, the fakery, thephoniness, the backslablapping,
(16:45):
the back-stabbing I didn't likeit at all.
And a guy like me with a womanwho wants to be a CEO could be a
really good combination, and Iwould be a lot happier than
being stuck in corporate worldand she would be a lot happier
than being stuck in domestic,home duties world.
(17:06):
And that's the possibility thatwe have here Now.
It's not going to be anytimesoon.
It's not going to be easy.
It's not going to even involveevery man, because a lot of men
they got to be at the factoryand of course there are ways to
make things work.
There's job sharing, there aresplit shifts.
There's there are ways to makethings work.
There's job sharing, there aresplit shifts.
There are possibilities.
The important thing is thatwe've got to get serious about
(17:29):
trying to make it happen forevery man as much as we can,
just as we have tried reallyhard over the past 60-some years
, since Betty Friedan's book, tohelp women have full options
and opportunities in the worldwhere we used to be primary.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
That makes complete sense to me, jack, and what I
was noting here was just I thinkit's really a challenge of both
sexes having to get shift theirparadigm of what life needs to
what life needs, to what lifelooks like.
And I think what I'm finding aswell in my work in the men's
sphere is we still have thislarge component of men's work
(18:13):
that's still very much of a redpill type of idea, and not that
there's anything wrong with that, and but I also see that also
can hinder us from moving tothings like we're talking about
today.
I would completely agree.
I think the challenge that wehave is that we need to allow
enough flexibility to merge intoeach other's domains of
(18:37):
dominance, I'll say, orprominence, so that we can have
a better understanding of whattotal parenthood is.
And I want to touch a littlebit we've been touching a little
bit on fatherhood, but to divea little deeper into that as
well, because when we stay stuckas this, in the same routine
that we've been doing now forthe last 50 years, it's it comes
(18:59):
to the point where the onlything that's important, or the
only thing that ever gets talkedabout, is equal pay for equal
work.
It's about the career woman.
It's never about how couplescan balance the demands placed
on them in today's society.
And so how does that look, andhow do we bring the men into
(19:20):
this picture?
And that seems to still be achallenge.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Yes, I think you're exactly right.
The women's movement was nevera negotiation.
The women's movement was aboutwomen getting together and
saying we got a lot of things wedon't like and we're going to
change them.
We're not going to stand forthis anymore.
We're going to change them.
(19:46):
We're not going to stand forthis anymore.
It would have been really nice,given the fact that men and
women have, basically thoughsome friction arises from time
to time, and big frictionsometimes but basically men and
women have been partners foreons, or the, or the adults in
the room of the human species.
So, instead of women askingtheir partners how a change in
(20:12):
the partnership should look tothem, instead of asking men what
would you like in this idea ofgender equality?
It wasn wasn't a negotiation,it was a shakedown and it was
based on shame.
You guys are male chauvinistpigs, you're selfish, you're
(20:34):
mean, and the kicker was callingus oppressors.
And that is how, in my view,that is how women were able to
justify the very obviousinjustice of engaging us in a
(20:55):
discussion of how thispartnership was going to change.
It was entirely unilateral andthey wanted to keep it
unilateral because they didn'treally like the idea of us
having equality which wouldrequire them to give up things.
They only wanted the kind ofequality which would allow them
to get things and have as manyoptions in life as they wanted.
(21:17):
The the negotiation needed tobe gentlemen, what would you
like?
And I have no doubt that evenback in 1963, 64, the early 60s,
I have no doubt that many menwould have said thank you for
asking.
Um, we do have some concernsabout what you guys are talking
about for yourselves.
(21:38):
If you're really interested inwhat we would like and how we
could make this work, we reallywould like a lot less pressure
on making money.
(22:03):
The latest research I've seenfrom the Pew Research Center
indicates that men, even morethan women these days, say I do
not spend enough time with mykids.
So there are huge opportunitieshere for everybody to benefit.
If we don't have zero sumthinking, if we don't think that
more for you means less for me.
Right Now, in the short term,more for you might mean less for
(22:25):
me, but think about when youwere a kid.
You wanted to.
You were told to share things.
And why is it a good idea toshare things?
Because it gives you morefriends and your friends are
more willing to do things foryou.
And so it's not just plus oneminus one, it's synergy and
there is more for everybody.
And if men and women could workout a deal that wasn't based on
(22:47):
shaming men and shutting men upand stereotyping us about all
of the horrible things that wesupposedly do, which not
coincidentally in my view, butpurposefully in my view render
us unsuited to be primaryparents, because primary parents
(23:07):
can't be.
All of these stereotypesViolent, impatient, mean, stupid
, clueless, can't multitask,just want to sit on the couch
and watch football, drink beer,chase girls, and all of those
stereotypes.
What are they designed to do?
Pretty much the same thing, Ithink, as the stereotypes we had
about women 50, 60, 70 yearsago.
(23:28):
They can't do math.
They cry too much, they can'tmake hard decisions.
All of those stereotypes wereways of justifying keeping women
out.
it's not their fault thatthey're like this, but it's just
they're women and all of thestereotypes, all of the man
bashing that takes place aroundmen and our flaws our human
(23:51):
flaws, I think are beingweaponized to maintain what
should be a gate that was lifted40, 50 years ago.
Now I want to mention one otheraspect of this thing.
You want to jump in with aquestion?
No, corey, I'm.
(24:32):
They grew up with it and, ofcourse, up about what great
fathers are going to be and howmuch they're going to love their
kids and their kids are goingto love them and they're going
to play together and going tohave really deep, meaningful
relationships, much better thanI had with my dad.
That's the thinking.
We're going to do it differenthere and that's wonderful, and
there are a lot of women whoreally do sincerely support that
.
(24:53):
However, in the eventuality of adivorce, which can happen in
the eventuality of a divorce,the woman can still and I
believe women still want to beable to pull rank on the father,
(25:17):
and two words no three wordsencapsulate the feeling, and the
three words are I'm the mother,I'm the mother and you're the
yeah, you're the dad, you'vebeen a great dad and everything,
but I'm the mother, andeverybody knows kids need their
mothers more than they leave,more than they need fathers.
(25:37):
So goodbye, I'm going toIndiana, or I'm going to be on
the tenure track at IndianaUniversity and you can fly out a
couple of times during thesummer to see them.
That still is very much withinthe realm of possibility and it
can destroy a man.
Possibility and it can destroy aman as you can imagine, as you
(25:58):
can imagine, it can destroy aman, and you know, if we want
men to be invested in their kids, we need to protect their
investments.
You wouldn't put your moneyinto a bank that wasn't
federally insured.
How do we expect men to puttheir whole hearts and souls
into relationships that can beblown up like that?
(26:21):
It's, it's gotta.
it's gotta change, it's gottastop and one of the worst one of
the worst ways that I am seeingin how women can turn their
backs on their pledge of havinga fully involved and fully
respected and equal father inher kids' lives is this
(26:44):
phenomenon called parentalalienation, which is, you know
what it is.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
I've heard the term, but I'll explain it for our
audience.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Parental alienation is a behavior on the part of
some parents, primarily womenhere, At the time of divorce,
when a father is saying you arenot taking my kids from me, this
is not what we bargained for,this is wrong.
Lawyers will tell her Friendswill tell her.
(27:15):
Lawyers will tell her friendswill tell her just talk to the
kids and explain why you'rebetter for them than daddy is.
Daddy doesn't really love youbecause daddy spent a lot of
Saturdays at work and sometimeshe couldn't come to your soccer
games and I would never do that.
That kind of thing.
That's parental alienation.
I love you more than he does.
(27:36):
Never do that.
That kind of thing.
That's parental alienation.
I love you more than he does.
A little worse than that is Ilove you more and he doesn't.
He's a bad person and thestereotypes are such that the
judge is caught, the judge istrapped because judges hate
domestic relations laws.
They hate divorce laws becausehow do they know?
(27:56):
And he's got a woman saying I'mafraid of him, the children are
afraid of him.
What judge is going to stickhis neck out and say I don't see
any evidence of that other thanthe fact that you're crying
here next to your lawyer.
I don't see any evidence ofthat, and so I am going to say
(28:17):
that no, I am not going to issuean ex parte order telling your
husband to stay away.
I'm not going to do that.
That puts him at a horriblerisk of letting a really bad guy
cause really bad harm.
Rather than try his best tofigure out what's the right way
to go, it's much easier just tothe saying nobody ever got fired
(28:40):
for hiring IBM or buying IBM.
Do you ever hear that saying?
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Back in the day, when IBM was big blue and big heavy
metal, no middle executive wasgoing to get fired by hiring IBM
to come in and do theircomputer system.
It was a safe bet.
And judges have a safe bet tosay I'm going to go with the
mother, I'm going to give herwhat she wants.
Now it's getting better, butit's better in the way that it
(29:07):
was getting better in 1919 whenwomen got the vote in Wyoming or
whenever it was.
Wyoming was the first state.
So in my view, you work withindividual men right, Correct
and I work in the ecosystem.
I'm not as nice as you are I'mas nice as you are to work with
(29:31):
individual men about all of thebazillion different combinations
of problems men can present toyou.
I like to work at the ecosystemlevel, the macro level, and
provide an ecosystem that makesit a little easier for you to
help out the men that you'retrying to help, Because the
(29:53):
ecosystem is better atsupporting what men want and men
need.
To me, the biggest need in theecosystem now is what's called a
rebuttable presumption forjoint custody.
Should I unpack that or do youget what it's about?
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, let's unpack it for our audience, for sure.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Okay, all right.
So joint custody is sometimescalled shared parenting, and the
research is as conclusive andas definite as science is ever
willing to claim.
It is because science is alwaysiterative and it's always
challenging itself and lookingfurther and finding new things.
But there has been a plethoraof research since about 2011
(30:37):
that makes many experts saythere's no doubt about it Joint
custody, shared parenting, fulland equal relationships of both
parents with the kids, whichdoesn't necessarily mean 50-50
time, but you don't get to pullrank on me.
We work this out together.
(30:58):
That's joint custody.
I respect you, you respect me.
If we disagree about how to dosomething with a problem the kid
is having, we'll talk about it.
We'll get to a point where, ifwe can't work out a compromise,
the best compromise will be okay.
We'll go with your idea for twoweeks.
We'll see how that goes.
(31:18):
If that's not making thingsbetter, let's try my way.
If there's respect in therelationship, they might say
yeah, that sounds good, let's doit that way.
That's shared parenting in anutshell.
It's best for the kids.
It's best for parents the kids,it's best for parents.
(31:42):
It's really bad for divorcelawyers, because neither parent
has to worry about beingannihilated as a parent.
You're in the US right, jack.
You're in the US right.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yes, In Canada, here we have this system, this group
of lawyers called fairwaydivorce, and the premise of it
and how it's built upon is thatboth and this only works when
the couple are amenable toworking through things.
But what it does is it givesthe couple these templates to
work through things and itreally gives them an opportunity
(32:13):
to come to a consensus on theirown.
And so one thing it reduces alot of tension in the divorce
process.
It reduces the expense.
The burden isn't solely on thefather any longer and it's a
much as gentle as it can be, amuch gentler way to have a
(32:34):
relationship.
And does anything like thatexist in your work that you've
been doing in the US?
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Yes, the term that's often used here south of the
border is mediation.
Ah okay, we call it mediationand many lawyers are stepping
back from their ability to makea ton of money on divorces
because they could file papersand counter suits and detainers
(33:02):
and who knows lots of paperworkthey can file and it's all worth
money to them.
But some lawyers are saying,look, this divorce court thing
is just a mess.
Judges hate it, parents hate it, kids hate it, we hate it.
It's just ugly, destructivestuff.
We're going to make less moneybut we're going to be mediation
(33:22):
lawyers and our purpose will bejust to have our clients think
through everything that they'retalking about in mediation to
help them come to a good, smart,ironclad, legally enforceable
mediation.
Not every lawyer wants to dothat.
I don't even know if everystate allows it.
(33:44):
Some states will refuse it.
If there has been any, probablyin some states it says proof
and probably in some states itsays credible accusation of any
kind of violence.
If there's any suggestion ofany violence, which could be as
little as a woman raising herhand and saying your honor, I'm
(34:07):
afraid of him yeah no mediationcan be allowed in that situation
because of the supposed powerimbalance.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Because mediation has to be power balanced.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Yeah, but there are many.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
There are many tricks still available for women who
want to foil and unwind andreverse the promise they made to
their husbands about what kindof parents they were going to be
together.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
And so a rebuttable presumption for joint custody.
We're talking about that.
So that's what joint custody isabout.
Mediation can help peoplearrive at good joint custody
agreements.
The rebuttable presumption partis this that's a fancy phrase,
rebuttable presumption might notknow it in these words, but if
(34:59):
you and I'm sure in Canada youdo you have in criminal cases a
presumption of innocence untilproven guilty, right, correct.
That doesn't mean that everyperson is innocent.
It just means that we startWith believing that every person
is innocent.
It just means that we startwith believing that this person
is innocent.
(35:20):
We have to treat him as if he'sinnocent until proven that he's
guilty.
He doesn't have to prove thathe's not guilty, we have to
prove that he is.
That's a rebuttable presumption.
It's the presumption ofinnocence, but the state in
their prosecution can rebut thatpresumption by providing
(35:41):
evidence of fingerprints andwitnesses and video cameras and
that's a rebuttable presumption.
So a rebuttable presumption ofjoint custody which I would like
to see in every state in theUnited States and in every
province of Canada.
Forgive me for intruding onyour country, but I'd like to
see it around the world.
The rebuttable presumption wouldsay in every divorce case we
(36:05):
start with the idea that bothparents are equal and if you
want to reduce him to a zoodaddy who gets to see his kids
every other week, every otherweekend and spend the night on
Wednesdays, if you're gonnareduce him to that and feel like
you can pull rank on himbecause you have sole custody
and he's a visitor, you've gotsome work to do.
(36:25):
You've got to prove why thatshould happen.
That would make things so muchbetter.
It would be so much safer formen to.
How many men do you think areout there who were telling their
buddies oh my God, I love mykids and now I don't even get to
see them?
She pulled all this crap on mein court.
What message does that send toyounger men who are thinking
(36:47):
about getting married?
They're thinking about oh myGod, I would die if that
happened to me.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
I'm not getting married.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
I'm not doing this.
You know about the MGTOW group.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Yeah, absolutely yeah , that's part of what's
happening today, isn't it?
It's groups like that that arecoming, that are starting to
gain traction, and men are justthrowing up their hands and
saying screw it.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
basically, and you talked about integrity, and I'm
not saying that every MGTOW manis motivated toward MGTOWness by
integrity.
Sometimes it's just negativethinking, but I think there are
a lot of MGTOW men who arebasically becoming MGTOW men
primarily because of theirintegrity.
(37:29):
I'm not going to put up withthis anymore.
I need to be treated fairlyanymore.
I'm not.
I need to be treated fairly,and if I can't be treated fairly
and have a woman who loves meand that I can love, then I
guess it's just not in the cardsfor me.
But I am not going to lose myintegrity.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Yes, yeah, absolutely .
I noticed in your work as well.
One of the things you talkabout is this idea we hear lots
about toxic masculinity, but youalso talk about toxic lots
about toxic masculinity, but youalso talk about toxic
femininity.
And so let's unpack those twoterms and get people to have an
understanding of how that'sactually showing up today.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Yeah, okay.
So I don't like the term toxicmasculinity.
I think that when it wasoriginally coined it wasn't as
toxic as it is now.
Toxic masculinity wasoriginally talked about among
psychologists who were trying tofigure out how can they treat
men better, how can they providebetter therapy for men, and
(38:27):
they were finding that lots oftimes the traditional male value
of being stoic and how are youtoday?
Oh, I'm fine, perfect, it'llget, but it'll get better.
I don't have any problems, andif I did, I'd solve them myself,
because I'm a man and apsychologist who is running up
(38:48):
against that is saying this is areally toxic idea.
These guys have that being aman means they completely deny
their realities, especiallytheir emotional realities.
Okay, the phrase toxicmasculinity was put out there.
Now I believe that one of, as Imentioned, all of the negative
(39:10):
stereotypes about men serve apurpose for women who want to
stay primary in the nice, sweet,happy, friendly world of love
and emotions and kids andrelationships.
Toxic masculinity is just thelatest and one of the most
(39:33):
virulent stereotypes.
Your Honor, he's got toxicmasculinity, that's.
And what does that set off inhis brain?
Oh my god, he was accused ofbeing a toxic man.
I cannot give him sharedparenting yes, against her
wishes.
So I think that the term toxicmasculinity has really lost its
(40:04):
essential, original meaning, andso what I say to people who try
to use it as a weapon againstmen is to say look, you want to
talk about toxic masculinity.
Imagine that you lived on theside of a lake that was polluted
.
What would happen to the fish?
(40:24):
The fish would get toxic.
Yes, you wouldn't want to eatthem.
Are we going to blame the fishfor that?
Are we going to blame the fishfor making them swim around in
that mess?
So to transfer it to toxicmasculinity?
(40:47):
If you think it's toxic thatmen don't express their feelings
, wouldn't it be great if womenall got together and said ladies
, let's take a good hard look atall of the ways we might not
even know we are discouragingmen from expressing their
(41:09):
feelings.
That's how you feel.
What about me?
I can't believe you said that.
How do you think I feel?
Or, oh, poor baby, let me takeout my little tiny violin, all
of that stuff.
So, look, be nicer to men.
(41:33):
We deserve it, because we'renot really oppressors.
We might do some bad thingsonce in a while.
We really do want you to loveus.
We want to love you.
We want to have happy livestogether.
I'm talking about heterosexualmen here.
Okay, yes.
So one of the things that Ibelieve very deeply in my
(41:55):
pursuit of helping the ecosystembe better is that there are
enough what's the word I want touse Unhelpful women.
Let's put it that way.
I'll be as gentle as I can.
Maybe I will say insincerefeminists, untrue feminists,
fake feminists.
(42:16):
They're not really interestedin equality, they're just
interested in what they can get,like any lobby does, big pharma
or the National RifleAssociation in the United States
.
What I like to say in theecosystem, trying to make the
ecosystem healthier, is thatthere are some people who are
really trying to pollute it.
(42:36):
They don't care because itdoesn't hurt them.
They're not swimming in thislake, they're over there, on
that ski slope over there, andso I think a lot of people find
this very difficult because theythink we should all sit around
and sing Kumbaya.
You got to talk to the ones whoare really bad and you need to
(42:59):
say okay, you want to talk abouttoxic masculinity.
I just made a video of toxicfemininity.
I did Nice Runs, about 17minutes, and I don't mean that
women are toxic no but I do meanthat there are elements of
(43:21):
female culture that are toxic,and I could show you at least
one scientific peer-reviewedstudy that says women are 4.5
times more in, have more, 4.5times more in-group bias than
men do.
Which means that if a man istalking to another man and the
(43:46):
second man says something he didto a woman or in a relationship
with a woman and it was wrong,according to the first man,
there's four times 4.5 timesmore likelihood that the first
man's going to say man, youshouldn't have done that.
What's more likely to happen onthe female side is that the
woman who did something possiblywrong to the man would hear
(44:09):
from her friend oh that musthave been so hard for you, that
must have been so hard for you.
And so toxic femininity is notexamining itself.
Female culture is not examiningitself because because we're
the mothers and we wouldn't bethe mothers if we weren't like
almost like angels.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Creates an echo chamber, doesn't it?
Speaker 3 (44:31):
Yes, it does.
Yes, it does.
It's called in group, it'scalled groupthink.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
And it's rampant.
It's rampant in modern culture.
Yeah, I think it's probablyworse in the US than it is in
Canada, although we do havefriends and correspondents,
activists in Canada who putthings into listservs that are
legit At least they're legit innewspapers.
It's not something out of somecrazy dark web thing Bad things
(45:00):
that are happening to men inCanada.
It really needs to change andsometimes I think it's not fair.
It's not fair.
I know I probably shouldn'tthink that this has to happen,
but if you had a friend who wasin a, if you were in a maximum
(45:20):
security jail and you don'tthink you belong there, and you
had a buddy who was in a minimumsecurity jail and he escaped,
what would you want him to comeand try to do?
Yeah, help you out.
He's trying to break me out ofthere somehow yeah so the
(45:43):
women's movement made a pointout of the fact that women's
work is undervalued.
I'd say, fine, I got that.
What's the other side of it?
Men, men's work is overvalued.
And so when women said we don'treally want to stay at home and
raise the kids 24-7, 365.
We want some new stuff.
(46:04):
The culture said, oh, that'sgoing to be a big change, but
okay, we can live with that.
Men are not so easily brokenout of their prison.
Men are in maximum securityprison because society values
what men do.
Where we are, yes.
(46:29):
If men had said we're not goingto be focusing so much money, so
much time on making money andwe're going to go on strike that
way and we're going to demandthat you make as much money as I
do, that would have beenpandemonium.
Going to demand that you makeas much money as I do?
That would have beenpandemonium.
But in a sense, it's reallywhat needs to happen.
(46:50):
Women are free, much more freefrom their traditional sex roles
than men are, and so it wouldreally be nice if women were
able to say we can say somethings that you can't, guys,
because we understand all of thepsychological tricks people
play on you to keep you rightwhere you are, like man up.
It's pretty sissy, man, thatyou want to do that.
(47:10):
Just toughen up and get withthe program.
It's hard for men to break outof their maximum security prison
and we really need women to sayto us hey guys, come on out,
it's okay, we're going to loveyou.
(47:30):
And here, catch this key.
Ideally, men should be able todo it ourselves is key.
Yes, ideally, men should beable to do it ourselves.
We are, in a way, in maximumsecurity prison because our work
is judged as more importantthan women's work.
There's a way in which that'sbad for women.
There's a way in which that'sbad for men.
(47:52):
Our work is overvalued.
We have to stay at it.
We don't get.
It costs society too much moneywhen a man wants to say he
wants to spend more time at alower pressure job.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
With his kids.
That costs too much money.
We can't do that when we thinkabout the synergies, because
it's probably true that aboutit's probably maybe it's not 50%
, but 40% 35% of women wouldreally like to have careers, not
(48:29):
just jobs, and they would liketo have careers where they get
to have all of the good feelingsthat men who like competition
get to have.
Yep, 35% of men maybe wouldreally like, especially after
they've had 20 years in thecorporate world, would really
like to say, to hell with allthat, I really like being with
(48:50):
my kids.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
I'm going to stay home and I'm going to hold down
the fort for you.
And now, look dear, you'regoing to have to get used to the
fact that the house isn't goingto be as clean as when you were
in charge of it, because Idon't really care as much about
a clean house as you do.
All I'll promise you is thatI'll make sure it's not a death
trap for the kids.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
Right.
Speaker 3 (49:10):
Not full of mold and mildew, and I'll take care of it
at a reasonable level.
But you can't yell at me when Idon't keep it as clean as you
do.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Yeah, I think those are all great conversations that
you know more.
I think this generation is moreopen to having those
conversations and I think we canstart to see some change.
Some of that change I want toget as we're getting closer to
wrapping up today's conversation.
I was just wondering if therewas a one practical step or a
one takeaway you'd want ouraudience to get from our
conversations.
There's so many things wetouched on today, but if we
could summarize a step or a oran idea to help the help men and
(49:50):
women who are listening to theshow move forward and move
closer together, what would thatbe?
Speaker 3 (49:55):
I'm a big fan of the I feel statement you familiar.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:59):
I'm a big fan of that and I think that is really the
first step that men can taketoward integrity.
If he's really lacking inintegrity and is afraid to say
what's really real for himbecause he's afraid his wife
will get mad or she won't lovehim, or she'll think he's a wimp
, or he won't be able to find agirlfriend Whatever is keeping
him from owning what he feels.
(50:23):
I like to say that if a mandisconnects his emotions, he's
like disconnecting his sparkplugs.
Yeah, your emotions are thespark plugs of your personality.
It's they really determine alot about how you, how your life
goes, and the I feel statementallows you, in a nice way, to
(50:49):
just say, to state what you arefeeling, what you are feeling.
Not you're wrong for making mefeel the way that you are making
me feel, and I deserve to getwhat I want, because not having
(51:11):
what I want makes me feel bad.
No, I suggest, at difficultconversations with wives and
girlfriends, let me hold yourhand while we talk.
Yeah, and I would like to talkwith you about something and it
just is.
Look, when this happened 20minutes ago, I felt really
whatever you felt, and it's notyour fault, but can we talk
about how I feel, why I feelthis way and what we could do
(51:35):
different next time.
And then it works beautifully,because if the woman has any
semblance of love for you leftif she still respects you at all
she wants to help you, shewants what's best for her family
.
She'll say, oh my God, I didn'trealize.
Tell me, talk to me more, andshe's not defensive.
I didn't realize, tell me, talkto me more, and she's not
(51:56):
defensive and you're notaccusatory.
And you get to leave theconversation thinking, wow, I
really stood up for myself and Imight not get what I want, but
I got the basic thing I want,which is to just be myself, to
stand up and say who I am andwhat's important to me.
(52:17):
So that's what I would.
That's what I would recommendas a really key thing for men
who are just lost and out of gas.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
Love that, I love that and absolutely the I feel
statement, or is a great way toown what's happening and to keep
it, and keep it within thatsphere, versus pointing fingers.
I just want to say, jack, wehad, we spent a great deal of
time talking on lots of stuffand I'm sure we could have dived
in for two or three more hours,so I just want to say thank you
so much for helping us get aglimpse of what some of these
often overlooked challenges thatmen and boys are facing today.
So if men are interested ingetting a hold of you and
(52:52):
participating in any of yourwork, what's the best way for
them to do that?
Speaker 3 (52:56):
So the hub of everything that I do is
male-friendly media.
All one word, no hyphens, nodash malefriendlymediacom.
And that's where I have prettymuch everything of any import
that I've ever done, startingwith my radio show back in 1983.
I've been digitizing them.
(53:16):
It's been amazing to listen tothem from 42 years ago.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
It's been fun.
Speaker 3 (53:23):
So that's it, malefriendlymediacom.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
You bet I'll make sure that's in today's show
notes, as well as wherever elseyou are on social media and make
sure that people get a chanceto reach out and speak with you.
You're doing phenomenal work.
Thank you so much for reachingout and really enjoyed our
conversation today.
Speaker 3 (53:37):
I did too.
I'll thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Thank you for listening to the Revolutionary
man podcast.
Are you ready to own yourdestiny, to become more the man
you were destined to be?
Join the brotherhood that isthe Awakened man at
theawakendmannet and startforging a new destiny today.
You know, imagine a world where half of humanity's
struggles are often overlooked,dismissed or even minimized.
While the focus on women'sissues is being transformative
and necessary, the experience ofmen and boys, be it at their
mental health, struggles witheducation or societal
expectations, are frequentlysidelined.
What happens when these untoldstories are brought to light?
(00:22):
How does addressing the malegender issues contribute to a
more balanced and equitablesociety?
In today's episode, we're goingto explore this complex and
often misunderstood challengesfacing men, and especially boys,
today, and we're going touncover societal structures that
perpetuate these struggles anddiscuss what can be done to
(00:42):
create real, lasting change.
But before we jump into today'sdiscussion, let's address
something else that many of usstruggle with.
It's the feeling of being outof alignment.
The demands of life can pull usin countless directions,
leaving us overwhelmed,disconnected and unsure of how
to move forward.
That's why I want to tell youabout Living With Integrity.
This isn't just another program.
(01:03):
It's a proven path torediscovering your purpose,
rebuilding trust in yourrelationships and creating a
future that reflects who youtruly are.
It's about stepping into theman you know you were meant to
be.
If you've had enoughfrustration, stagnation and
uncertainty, this is youropportunity to take action.
I want you to go visitmemberstheawakenedmannet and
(01:24):
complete our free integritychallenge.
It's the first step to take andthe rewards are going to be
life-changing.
Live with intention, lead withintegrity, and let's get started
now.
Let's get on with today'sepisode.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
The average man today is sleepwalking through life,
many never reaching their truepotential, let alone ever
crossing the finish line toliving a purposeful life.
Yet the hunger still exists,albeit buried amidst his
cluttered mind, misguidedbeliefs and values that no
longer serve him.
It's time to align yourself forgreatness.
(02:02):
It's time to become arevolutionary man.
Stay strong, my brother.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Welcome everyone to the Revolutionary man Podcast.
I'm the founder of the Awakenedman Movement and your host,
alan DeMonsoul.
Are we truly addressing theroot causes of societal
challenges if we continue tooverlook the unique struggles of
men and boys?
And what changes might occur ifwe begin viewing gender issues
as human issues, where thewell-being of all individuals is
(02:33):
being interdependent?
The struggles for men and boysare deeply intertwined with
broader societal issues, andaddressing them isn't about
creating division.
It's about buildingunderstanding and equity for
everyone.
So today we're going to explorewhat it means to challenge the
status quo, confront biases,foster genuine progress, and
(02:54):
with that I'll allow me tointroduce my guest.
So Jack Kammer has his master'sin social work.
He's an author and advocatededicated to addressing male
gender issues and fostering amore inclusive dialogue around
societal challenges, and, withexperience as a correctional
officer and a parole andprobation agent in Baltimore,
jack's later worked with theNational Fatherhood Initiative.
(03:16):
This is a training prison staffto support incarcerated fathers
.
Love that work, jack and hefounded Working Well with Men, a
consultancy that provides toolsto help men build stronger
connections and relationships.
He's also the author, as I said, of multiple books and a
seasoned speaker.
Jack has consistentlychampioned the need for empathy
and balance and addressing theoften overlooked struggles faced
(03:39):
by men and boys.
I'm looking forward to thisconversation.
Welcome to the show jack.
How, how are things, my friend?
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Very well, Alan.
As my favorite uncle used tosay, I'm peachy.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Right on.
Love that, love that as Jack.
Here at the Revolutionary manpodcast, we always talk about
everyone being on their ownhero's journey or, as we like to
call it, a hero's quest.
So tell us about that point,that point point in the quest,
your death and rebirth moment,and how that experience shaped
you into the man you are todayand the work you're doing so I
(04:14):
think I've had a lot of deathand rebirth moments or maybe
they weren't complete deaths,maybe they were just near-death
experiences.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
I remember, remember the first one as a child Didn't
realize it had anything to dowith gender, because I didn't
know what gender was back then,didn't know about expectations,
sex roles, any of that stuff,stereotypes, biases.
But you know how it's wrong forpeople to say to little girls
gee, susie, you're really goodat math for a girl.
(04:45):
Or gee, mary, you're reallygood at sports for a girl.
What I used to hear and Ididn't really understand it for
what it was, but I just knewsomething wasn't quite right
what I used to to hear was gee,jack, you're really good with
(05:06):
babies for a boy.
And if we think of what we knowabout how wrong it is to tell a
girl that she's good at mathfor a girl, and a girl who's
good at sports to tell her she'sgood at sports for a girl, you
could get a an idea of how ayoung boy like me, who loved
(05:29):
babies, still loves babies feltwhen he heard you're really good
with babies for a boy, yeah,what.
So what's that mean?
Is there something wrong withme?
Am?
Am I an oddball?
Am I a weirdo?
Should I stay out of thisterritory?
It's mostly women around thebabies.
Maybe I don't belong here,maybe.
(05:52):
So that was.
It wasn't even a near-deathexperience, but it was like a
whack upside the head.
That something was wrong hereupside the head.
Yeah, that something was wronghere.
Then, much later, I was on aco-ed softball team and we would
(06:19):
play each week and after eachgame, after each week, we would
go out for beer and dancing anda little food.
And two weeks in a row I foundmyself sitting with two
different one each timeteammates, female teammates and
I'm a pretty good listener andthey were telling me tales of
woe about their boyfriends.
And they both ended theirstories, their tales of woe
(06:40):
about their boyfriends, with andso he's a real jerk, don't you
think he's a real jerk, don'tyou think?
And all I could say both timeswas maybe he's a jerk based on
what you're telling me.
From his point of view, maybeit looks like this.
And both times I offeredsomething that you and I would
(07:03):
probably see as perfectlyobviously within the realm of
real possibility of how thisfellow was thinking and feeling.
And both times they said oh mygod, I never thought of that and
it was.
That was the real kicker for meto start my radio show in 19
this was 1982, started the radioshow in 1983 to do a radio show
(07:26):
about what's really going onwith men, based on the idea that
the male point of view is notvery well understood.
Not that there was only onemale point of view.
Generally, looking at thingsfrom a man's point of view is
not very often done, and perhapsthat's at least in part because
(07:47):
the male point of view is notvery well articulated.
And it's not because I'm theonly articulate person that I
thought I could do that.
But I was one of the few peoplewho was willing to say I don't
care that this might make womenmad.
I'm going to say look, you'renot perfect, you don't
understand us perfectly anymorethan we understand you perfectly
.
So, come on, let's have a,let's have a dialogue, let's
(08:10):
have a partnership.
So that's, those are my twomain kickstarts.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
I love that.
What I appreciate excuse me,what I'm appreciating about your
story is how easily that we'vedone that and when we talked
about for a girl or for a boyand I remember that so vividly
about how we would stereotypeand demean one side or the other
.
I'm the oldest of five and thethird came around when I was six
(08:38):
years old.
So really from the time I wassix I was helping around the
house.
I was six, I was helping aroundthe house and I can recall like
having aunts and uncles notcome over and just be all so
impressed for a young boy to belooking after his brothers and
his sisters.
But I wouldn't have made thatconnection until you mentioned
it just now.
And how you get we havestereotypes built into,
(09:02):
hardwired into our society.
So in your work, have you beenfinding now that there's still
this stereotype and this, thesehardwired ideas, and, if so, how
can we start to break free fromsome of these?
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Well, we're going to need some time, first of all, if
you think about the women'smovement and all the work that
had to be done to dig out fromunder all of the stereotypes
about women, and how thosestereotypes reinforced ideas of
female inferiority and thecountervailing male superiority,
(09:37):
and how those stereotypes keptwomen out of certain occupations
that men not because they'rebad but because they're human
wanted to keep for themselves,especially because they had been
assigned the role of provider,and so they needed to have
access to money through theirjobs.
So that's the template for whatwe need to do, and it didn't
(10:02):
happen in 28 seconds.
The story, the description Ijust gave it, took 50, 75, 100
years, depending on how far youwant to go back.
What we're having trouble with,now that women are human, they
(10:29):
want what they want.
Sometimes they can be selfish,not because they're evil or bad
or horrible, but because they'rehuman.
They want to keep what they'vegot and they have in their
domain, like we had, oureconomic domain.
Women have in their domain avery wonderful thing, which is
(10:55):
primary access, primaryresponsibility for, for
relationships with children,kids, people who love you,
because they love you, you knowyou are important to them and
you care about them, which isvery much more enriching, to my
(11:19):
way of thinking.
Now, not every man will thinklike this.
Not every man wants to beheavily involved in the care and
love and nurturance of kids,although I think a lot of men
are more than they're able tofulfill.
So what I need to do, what mymission, is to point out that in
(11:44):
the early 60s, when bettyfordan you ever heard that name?
No, betty fordan is pretty muchcredited with starting the
current wave of feminism in 1963, she published a book called
the feminine mystique.
She went on to be, she went onto become the first president of
the national organization forWomen and she was very friendly
(12:06):
to men in her book.
Actually, I was surprised whenI read her book.
I thought she's going to bemean and demeaning and
(12:34):
condescending to men andequality.
In non-traditional femaledomains, domains they faced a
problem with some women sayingwait a second.
I'm hearing that men aretalking about equality too, and
a lot of men are saying itsounds good to them, but what
they're talking about is beingequal parents and we're not
(12:59):
really sure we want that,because we really love being the
primary parent now, just as menwho wanted to keep their union
jobs for themselves were notevil chauvinist pigs.
They were just human beingstrying to do their jobs and do
what's expected of them.
Women weren't bad for feelingthat way, but they did and still
(13:22):
do feel that way.
Many of them still do feel thatway now.
You will often hear peoplerespond by saying oh, that's not
true.
I don't know any women whodon't want their husbands to be
more involved around the house.
Now, what's that mean?
I want them to clean more, Iwant them to go shopping more, I
(13:44):
want them to cook more and Iwant them to be involved with
the kids more.
They'll admit to themselveseach other.
I don't really like it so muchwhen the kids come running to
him.
If they fall down and skintheir knee, I don't like him.
I don't like it when they runright past me and go daddy, now
it's not bad that they get alittle twinge of pain when that
happens.
It's only bad if they want totry to stop it from happening.
(14:09):
Right, it's only bad if theywant to keep the husband, the
father, from feeling that samesense of joy and compassion and
love and being needed and beingwanted at home in a way that's
very different from how they aretreated as part members of the
(14:31):
team.
You're an important part of theteam here at Acme Widget
Company.
It's just a whole differentthing, and women have primary
access to that and it is to ourdetriment as men.
Just as keeping women out ofbusiness was bad for them, kept
them from having access to moneyand external fulfillment, it's
(14:55):
bad for men to have a sort ofthe obverse.
It's not the reverse, but it'sperpendicular, it's in a
different dimension.
It's bad for us to be focusedjust on our provider role.
The revolution we need to haveas men is to be able to say look
, you want equality where wetraditionally were primary.
(15:21):
We got to have equality whereyou were traditionally primary.
And please stop saying that, oh, raising kids is so demeaning
and it's all about stinkydiapers, because you know that's
not true and we know that's nottrue.
It does involve stinky diapers,but that's not all.
But that's not all Now.
(15:43):
The beauty of this is that BettyFriedan in the 1980s said look,
the dialogue has gone on toolong in terms of women alone.
Let men join women at thecenter of the second stage,
because it is true that manywomen really do want men to be
(16:03):
more involved, not just at homecleaning up.
They really do want the men tobe at home taking care of the
kids, because some women good,wonderful women, who love being
mothers it's just not the mostfulfilling thing for them and
they want to be lawyers anddoctors and astronauts and
whatever they want to be.
(16:24):
But it's difficult for them ifthey have to worry about what's
going on at home or at thedaycare center.
And so the partnership comesfrom the fact that there are
guys like me.
I was in corporate life for awhile and I hated it.
I just hated it.
The politics, the fakery, thephoniness, the backslablapping,
(16:45):
the back-stabbing I didn't likeit at all.
And a guy like me with a womanwho wants to be a CEO could be a
really good combination, and Iwould be a lot happier than
being stuck in corporate worldand she would be a lot happier
than being stuck in domestic,home duties world.
(17:06):
And that's the possibility thatwe have here Now.
It's not going to be anytimesoon.
It's not going to be easy.
It's not going to even involveevery man, because a lot of men
they got to be at the factoryand of course there are ways to
make things work.
There's job sharing, there aresplit shifts.
There's there are ways to makethings work.
There's job sharing, there aresplit shifts.
There are possibilities.
The important thing is thatwe've got to get serious about
(17:29):
trying to make it happen forevery man as much as we can,
just as we have tried reallyhard over the past 60-some years
, since Betty Friedan's book, tohelp women have full options
and opportunities in the worldwhere we used to be primary.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
That makes complete sense to me, jack, and what I
was noting here was just I thinkit's really a challenge of both
sexes having to get shift theirparadigm of what life needs to
what life needs, to what lifelooks like.
And I think what I'm finding aswell in my work in the men's
sphere is we still have thislarge component of men's work
(18:13):
that's still very much of a redpill type of idea, and not that
there's anything wrong with that, and but I also see that also
can hinder us from moving tothings like we're talking about
today.
I would completely agree.
I think the challenge that wehave is that we need to allow
enough flexibility to merge intoeach other's domains of
(18:37):
dominance, I'll say, orprominence, so that we can have
a better understanding of whattotal parenthood is.
And I want to touch a littlebit we've been touching a little
bit on fatherhood, but to divea little deeper into that as
well, because when we stay stuckas this, in the same routine
that we've been doing now forthe last 50 years, it's it comes
(18:59):
to the point where the onlything that's important, or the
only thing that ever gets talkedabout, is equal pay for equal
work.
It's about the career woman.
It's never about how couplescan balance the demands placed
on them in today's society.
And so how does that look, andhow do we bring the men into
(19:20):
this picture?
And that seems to still be achallenge.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Yes, I think you're exactly right.
The women's movement was nevera negotiation.
The women's movement was aboutwomen getting together and
saying we got a lot of things wedon't like and we're going to
change them.
We're not going to stand forthis anymore.
We're going to change them.
(19:46):
We're not going to stand forthis anymore.
It would have been really nice,given the fact that men and
women have, basically thoughsome friction arises from time
to time, and big frictionsometimes but basically men and
women have been partners foreons, or the, or the adults in
the room of the human species.
So, instead of women askingtheir partners how a change in
(20:12):
the partnership should look tothem, instead of asking men what
would you like in this idea ofgender equality?
It wasn wasn't a negotiation,it was a shakedown and it was
based on shame.
You guys are male chauvinistpigs, you're selfish, you're
(20:34):
mean, and the kicker was callingus oppressors.
And that is how, in my view,that is how women were able to
justify the very obviousinjustice of engaging us in a
(20:55):
discussion of how thispartnership was going to change.
It was entirely unilateral andthey wanted to keep it
unilateral because they didn'treally like the idea of us
having equality which wouldrequire them to give up things.
They only wanted the kind ofequality which would allow them
to get things and have as manyoptions in life as they wanted.
(21:17):
The the negotiation needed tobe gentlemen, what would you
like?
And I have no doubt that evenback in 1963, 64, the early 60s,
I have no doubt that many menwould have said thank you for
asking.
Um, we do have some concernsabout what you guys are talking
about for yourselves.
(21:38):
If you're really interested inwhat we would like and how we
could make this work, we reallywould like a lot less pressure
on making money.
(22:03):
The latest research I've seenfrom the Pew Research Center
indicates that men, even morethan women these days, say I do
not spend enough time with mykids.
So there are huge opportunitieshere for everybody to benefit.
If we don't have zero sumthinking, if we don't think that
more for you means less for me.
Right Now, in the short term,more for you might mean less for
(22:25):
me, but think about when youwere a kid.
You wanted to.
You were told to share things.
And why is it a good idea toshare things?
Because it gives you morefriends and your friends are
more willing to do things foryou.
And so it's not just plus oneminus one, it's synergy and
there is more for everybody.
And if men and women could workout a deal that wasn't based on
(22:47):
shaming men and shutting men upand stereotyping us about all
of the horrible things that wesupposedly do, which not
coincidentally in my view, butpurposefully in my view render
us unsuited to be primaryparents, because primary parents
(23:07):
can't be.
All of these stereotypesViolent, impatient, mean, stupid
, clueless, can't multitask,just want to sit on the couch
and watch football, drink beer,chase girls, and all of those
stereotypes.
What are they designed to do?
Pretty much the same thing, Ithink, as the stereotypes we had
about women 50, 60, 70 yearsago.
(23:28):
They can't do math.
They cry too much, they can'tmake hard decisions.
All of those stereotypes wereways of justifying keeping women
out.
it's not their fault thatthey're like this, but it's just
they're women and all of thestereotypes, all of the man
bashing that takes place aroundmen and our flaws our human
(23:51):
flaws, I think are beingweaponized to maintain what
should be a gate that was lifted40, 50 years ago.
Now I want to mention one otheraspect of this thing.
You want to jump in with aquestion?
No, corey, I'm.
(24:32):
They grew up with it and, ofcourse, up about what great
fathers are going to be and howmuch they're going to love their
kids and their kids are goingto love them and they're going
to play together and going tohave really deep, meaningful
relationships, much better thanI had with my dad.
That's the thinking.
We're going to do it differenthere and that's wonderful, and
there are a lot of women whoreally do sincerely support that
.
(24:53):
However, in the eventuality of adivorce, which can happen in
the eventuality of a divorce,the woman can still and I
believe women still want to beable to pull rank on the father,
(25:17):
and two words no three wordsencapsulate the feeling, and the
three words are I'm the mother,I'm the mother and you're the
yeah, you're the dad, you'vebeen a great dad and everything,
but I'm the mother, andeverybody knows kids need their
mothers more than they leave,more than they need fathers.
(25:37):
So goodbye, I'm going toIndiana, or I'm going to be on
the tenure track at IndianaUniversity and you can fly out a
couple of times during thesummer to see them.
That still is very much withinthe realm of possibility and it
can destroy a man.
Possibility and it can destroy aman as you can imagine, as you
(25:58):
can imagine, it can destroy aman, and you know, if we want
men to be invested in their kids, we need to protect their
investments.
You wouldn't put your moneyinto a bank that wasn't
federally insured.
How do we expect men to puttheir whole hearts and souls
into relationships that can beblown up like that?
(26:21):
It's, it's gotta.
it's gotta change, it's gottastop and one of the worst one of
the worst ways that I am seeingin how women can turn their
backs on their pledge of havinga fully involved and fully
respected and equal father inher kids' lives is this
(26:44):
phenomenon called parentalalienation, which is, you know
what it is.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
I've heard the term, but I'll explain it for our
audience.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Parental alienation is a behavior on the part of
some parents, primarily womenhere, At the time of divorce,
when a father is saying you arenot taking my kids from me, this
is not what we bargained for,this is wrong.
Lawyers will tell her Friendswill tell her.
(27:15):
Lawyers will tell her friendswill tell her just talk to the
kids and explain why you'rebetter for them than daddy is.
Daddy doesn't really love youbecause daddy spent a lot of
Saturdays at work and sometimeshe couldn't come to your soccer
games and I would never do that.
That kind of thing.
That's parental alienation.
I love you more than he does.
(27:36):
Never do that.
That kind of thing.
That's parental alienation.
I love you more than he does.
A little worse than that is Ilove you more and he doesn't.
He's a bad person and thestereotypes are such that the
judge is caught, the judge istrapped because judges hate
domestic relations laws.
They hate divorce laws becausehow do they know?
(27:56):
And he's got a woman saying I'mafraid of him, the children are
afraid of him.
What judge is going to stickhis neck out and say I don't see
any evidence of that other thanthe fact that you're crying
here next to your lawyer.
I don't see any evidence ofthat, and so I am going to say
(28:17):
that no, I am not going to issuean ex parte order telling your
husband to stay away.
I'm not going to do that.
That puts him at a horriblerisk of letting a really bad guy
cause really bad harm.
Rather than try his best tofigure out what's the right way
to go, it's much easier just tothe saying nobody ever got fired
(28:40):
for hiring IBM or buying IBM.
Do you ever hear that saying?
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Back in the day, when IBM was big blue and big heavy
metal, no middle executive wasgoing to get fired by hiring IBM
to come in and do theircomputer system.
It was a safe bet.
And judges have a safe bet tosay I'm going to go with the
mother, I'm going to give herwhat she wants.
Now it's getting better, butit's better in the way that it
(29:07):
was getting better in 1919 whenwomen got the vote in Wyoming or
whenever it was.
Wyoming was the first state.
So in my view, you work withindividual men right, Correct
and I work in the ecosystem.
I'm not as nice as you are I'mas nice as you are to work with
(29:31):
individual men about all of thebazillion different combinations
of problems men can present toyou.
I like to work at the ecosystemlevel, the macro level, and
provide an ecosystem that makesit a little easier for you to
help out the men that you'retrying to help, Because the
(29:53):
ecosystem is better atsupporting what men want and men
need.
To me, the biggest need in theecosystem now is what's called a
rebuttable presumption forjoint custody.
Should I unpack that or do youget what it's about?
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, let's unpack it for our audience, for sure.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Okay, all right.
So joint custody is sometimescalled shared parenting, and the
research is as conclusive andas definite as science is ever
willing to claim.
It is because science is alwaysiterative and it's always
challenging itself and lookingfurther and finding new things.
But there has been a plethoraof research since about 2011
(30:37):
that makes many experts saythere's no doubt about it Joint
custody, shared parenting, fulland equal relationships of both
parents with the kids, whichdoesn't necessarily mean 50-50
time, but you don't get to pullrank on me.
We work this out together.
(30:58):
That's joint custody.
I respect you, you respect me.
If we disagree about how to dosomething with a problem the kid
is having, we'll talk about it.
We'll get to a point where, ifwe can't work out a compromise,
the best compromise will be okay.
We'll go with your idea for twoweeks.
We'll see how that goes.
(31:18):
If that's not making thingsbetter, let's try my way.
If there's respect in therelationship, they might say
yeah, that sounds good, let's doit that way.
That's shared parenting in anutshell.
It's best for the kids.
It's best for parents the kids,it's best for parents.
(31:42):
It's really bad for divorcelawyers, because neither parent
has to worry about beingannihilated as a parent.
You're in the US right, jack.
You're in the US right.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yes, In Canada, here we have this system, this group
of lawyers called fairwaydivorce, and the premise of it
and how it's built upon is thatboth and this only works when
the couple are amenable toworking through things.
But what it does is it givesthe couple these templates to
work through things and itreally gives them an opportunity
(32:13):
to come to a consensus on theirown.
And so one thing it reduces alot of tension in the divorce
process.
It reduces the expense.
The burden isn't solely on thefather any longer and it's a
much as gentle as it can be, amuch gentler way to have a
(32:34):
relationship.
And does anything like thatexist in your work that you've
been doing in the US?
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Yes, the term that's often used here south of the
border is mediation.
Ah okay, we call it mediationand many lawyers are stepping
back from their ability to makea ton of money on divorces
because they could file papersand counter suits and detainers
(33:02):
and who knows lots of paperworkthey can file and it's all worth
money to them.
But some lawyers are saying,look, this divorce court thing
is just a mess.
Judges hate it, parents hate it, kids hate it, we hate it.
It's just ugly, destructivestuff.
We're going to make less moneybut we're going to be mediation
(33:22):
lawyers and our purpose will bejust to have our clients think
through everything that they'retalking about in mediation to
help them come to a good, smart,ironclad, legally enforceable
mediation.
Not every lawyer wants to dothat.
I don't even know if everystate allows it.
(33:44):
Some states will refuse it.
If there has been any, probablyin some states it says proof
and probably in some states itsays credible accusation of any
kind of violence.
If there's any suggestion ofany violence, which could be as
little as a woman raising herhand and saying your honor, I'm
(34:07):
afraid of him yeah no mediationcan be allowed in that situation
because of the supposed powerimbalance.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Because mediation has to be power balanced.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Yeah, but there are many.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
There are many tricks still available for women who
want to foil and unwind andreverse the promise they made to
their husbands about what kindof parents they were going to be
together.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
And so a rebuttable presumption for joint custody.
We're talking about that.
So that's what joint custody isabout.
Mediation can help peoplearrive at good joint custody
agreements.
The rebuttable presumption partis this that's a fancy phrase,
rebuttable presumption might notknow it in these words, but if
(34:59):
you and I'm sure in Canada youdo you have in criminal cases a
presumption of innocence untilproven guilty, right, correct.
That doesn't mean that everyperson is innocent.
It just means that we startWith believing that every person
is innocent.
It just means that we startwith believing that this person
is innocent.
(35:20):
We have to treat him as if he'sinnocent until proven that he's
guilty.
He doesn't have to prove thathe's not guilty, we have to
prove that he is.
That's a rebuttable presumption.
It's the presumption ofinnocence, but the state in
their prosecution can rebut thatpresumption by providing
(35:41):
evidence of fingerprints andwitnesses and video cameras and
that's a rebuttable presumption.
So a rebuttable presumption ofjoint custody which I would like
to see in every state in theUnited States and in every
province of Canada.
Forgive me for intruding onyour country, but I'd like to
see it around the world.
The rebuttable presumption wouldsay in every divorce case we
(36:05):
start with the idea that bothparents are equal and if you
want to reduce him to a zoodaddy who gets to see his kids
every other week, every otherweekend and spend the night on
Wednesdays, if you're gonnareduce him to that and feel like
you can pull rank on himbecause you have sole custody
and he's a visitor, you've gotsome work to do.
(36:25):
You've got to prove why thatshould happen.
That would make things so muchbetter.
It would be so much safer formen to.
How many men do you think areout there who were telling their
buddies oh my God, I love mykids and now I don't even get to
see them?
She pulled all this crap on mein court.
What message does that send toyounger men who are thinking
(36:47):
about getting married?
They're thinking about oh myGod, I would die if that
happened to me.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
I'm not getting married.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
I'm not doing this.
You know about the MGTOW group.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Yeah, absolutely yeah , that's part of what's
happening today, isn't it?
It's groups like that that arecoming, that are starting to
gain traction, and men are justthrowing up their hands and
saying screw it.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
basically, and you talked about integrity, and I'm
not saying that every MGTOW manis motivated toward MGTOWness by
integrity.
Sometimes it's just negativethinking, but I think there are
a lot of MGTOW men who arebasically becoming MGTOW men
primarily because of theirintegrity.
(37:29):
I'm not going to put up withthis anymore.
I need to be treated fairlyanymore.
I'm not.
I need to be treated fairly,and if I can't be treated fairly
and have a woman who loves meand that I can love, then I
guess it's just not in the cardsfor me.
But I am not going to lose myintegrity.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Yes, yeah, absolutely .
I noticed in your work as well.
One of the things you talkabout is this idea we hear lots
about toxic masculinity, but youalso talk about toxic lots
about toxic masculinity, but youalso talk about toxic
femininity.
And so let's unpack those twoterms and get people to have an
understanding of how that'sactually showing up today.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Yeah, okay.
So I don't like the term toxicmasculinity.
I think that when it wasoriginally coined it wasn't as
toxic as it is now.
Toxic masculinity wasoriginally talked about among
psychologists who were trying tofigure out how can they treat
men better, how can they providebetter therapy for men, and
(38:27):
they were finding that lots oftimes the traditional male value
of being stoic and how are youtoday?
Oh, I'm fine, perfect, it'llget, but it'll get better.
I don't have any problems, andif I did, I'd solve them myself,
because I'm a man and apsychologist who is running up
(38:48):
against that is saying this is areally toxic idea.
These guys have that being aman means they completely deny
their realities, especiallytheir emotional realities.
Okay, the phrase toxicmasculinity was put out there.
Now I believe that one of, as Imentioned, all of the negative
(39:10):
stereotypes about men serve apurpose for women who want to
stay primary in the nice, sweet,happy, friendly world of love
and emotions and kids andrelationships.
Toxic masculinity is just thelatest and one of the most
(39:33):
virulent stereotypes.
Your Honor, he's got toxicmasculinity, that's.
And what does that set off inhis brain?
Oh my god, he was accused ofbeing a toxic man.
I cannot give him sharedparenting yes, against her
wishes.
So I think that the term toxicmasculinity has really lost its
(40:04):
essential, original meaning, andso what I say to people who try
to use it as a weapon againstmen is to say look, you want to
talk about toxic masculinity.
Imagine that you lived on theside of a lake that was polluted
.
What would happen to the fish?
(40:24):
The fish would get toxic.
Yes, you wouldn't want to eatthem.
Are we going to blame the fishfor that?
Are we going to blame the fishfor making them swim around in
that mess?
So to transfer it to toxicmasculinity?
(40:47):
If you think it's toxic thatmen don't express their feelings
, wouldn't it be great if womenall got together and said ladies
, let's take a good hard look atall of the ways we might not
even know we are discouragingmen from expressing their
(41:09):
feelings.
That's how you feel.
What about me?
I can't believe you said that.
How do you think I feel?
Or, oh, poor baby, let me takeout my little tiny violin, all
of that stuff.
So, look, be nicer to men.
(41:33):
We deserve it, because we'renot really oppressors.
We might do some bad thingsonce in a while.
We really do want you to loveus.
We want to love you.
We want to have happy livestogether.
I'm talking about heterosexualmen here.
Okay, yes.
So one of the things that Ibelieve very deeply in my
(41:55):
pursuit of helping the ecosystembe better is that there are
enough what's the word I want touse Unhelpful women.
Let's put it that way.
I'll be as gentle as I can.
Maybe I will say insincerefeminists, untrue feminists,
fake feminists.
(42:16):
They're not really interestedin equality, they're just
interested in what they can get,like any lobby does, big pharma
or the National RifleAssociation in the United States
.
What I like to say in theecosystem, trying to make the
ecosystem healthier, is thatthere are some people who are
really trying to pollute it.
(42:36):
They don't care because itdoesn't hurt them.
They're not swimming in thislake, they're over there, on
that ski slope over there, andso I think a lot of people find
this very difficult because theythink we should all sit around
and sing Kumbaya.
You got to talk to the ones whoare really bad and you need to
(42:59):
say okay, you want to talk abouttoxic masculinity.
I just made a video of toxicfemininity.
I did Nice Runs, about 17minutes, and I don't mean that
women are toxic no but I do meanthat there are elements of
(43:21):
female culture that are toxic,and I could show you at least
one scientific peer-reviewedstudy that says women are 4.5
times more in, have more, 4.5times more in-group bias than
men do.
Which means that if a man istalking to another man and the
(43:46):
second man says something he didto a woman or in a relationship
with a woman and it was wrong,according to the first man,
there's four times 4.5 timesmore likelihood that the first
man's going to say man, youshouldn't have done that.
What's more likely to happen onthe female side is that the
woman who did something possiblywrong to the man would hear
(44:09):
from her friend oh that musthave been so hard for you, that
must have been so hard for you.
And so toxic femininity is notexamining itself.
Female culture is not examiningitself because because we're
the mothers and we wouldn't bethe mothers if we weren't like
almost like angels.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Creates an echo chamber, doesn't it?
Speaker 3 (44:31):
Yes, it does.
Yes, it does.
It's called in group, it'scalled groupthink.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
And it's rampant.
It's rampant in modern culture.
Yeah, I think it's probablyworse in the US than it is in
Canada, although we do havefriends and correspondents,
activists in Canada who putthings into listservs that are
legit At least they're legit innewspapers.
It's not something out of somecrazy dark web thing Bad things
(45:00):
that are happening to men inCanada.
It really needs to change andsometimes I think it's not fair.
It's not fair.
I know I probably shouldn'tthink that this has to happen,
but if you had a friend who wasin a, if you were in a maximum
(45:20):
security jail and you don'tthink you belong there, and you
had a buddy who was in a minimumsecurity jail and he escaped,
what would you want him to comeand try to do?
Yeah, help you out.
He's trying to break me out ofthere somehow yeah so the
(45:43):
women's movement made a pointout of the fact that women's
work is undervalued.
I'd say, fine, I got that.
What's the other side of it?
Men, men's work is overvalued.
And so when women said we don'treally want to stay at home and
raise the kids 24-7, 365.
We want some new stuff.
(46:04):
The culture said, oh, that'sgoing to be a big change, but
okay, we can live with that.
Men are not so easily brokenout of their prison.
Men are in maximum securityprison because society values
what men do.
Where we are, yes.
(46:29):
If men had said we're not goingto be focusing so much money, so
much time on making money andwe're going to go on strike that
way and we're going to demandthat you make as much money as I
do, that would have beenpandemonium.
Going to demand that you makeas much money as I do?
That would have beenpandemonium.
But in a sense, it's reallywhat needs to happen.
(46:50):
Women are free, much more freefrom their traditional sex roles
than men are, and so it wouldreally be nice if women were
able to say we can say somethings that you can't, guys,
because we understand all of thepsychological tricks people
play on you to keep you rightwhere you are, like man up.
It's pretty sissy, man, thatyou want to do that.
(47:10):
Just toughen up and get withthe program.
It's hard for men to break outof their maximum security prison
and we really need women to sayto us hey guys, come on out,
it's okay, we're going to loveyou.
(47:30):
And here, catch this key.
Ideally, men should be able todo it ourselves is key.
Yes, ideally, men should beable to do it ourselves.
We are, in a way, in maximumsecurity prison because our work
is judged as more importantthan women's work.
There's a way in which that'sbad for women.
There's a way in which that'sbad for men.
(47:52):
Our work is overvalued.
We have to stay at it.
We don't get.
It costs society too much moneywhen a man wants to say he
wants to spend more time at alower pressure job.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
With his kids.
That costs too much money.
We can't do that when we thinkabout the synergies, because
it's probably true that aboutit's probably maybe it's not 50%
, but 40% 35% of women wouldreally like to have careers, not
(48:29):
just jobs, and they would liketo have careers where they get
to have all of the good feelingsthat men who like competition
get to have.
Yep, 35% of men maybe wouldreally like, especially after
they've had 20 years in thecorporate world, would really
like to say, to hell with allthat, I really like being with
(48:50):
my kids.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
I'm going to stay home and I'm going to hold down
the fort for you.
And now, look dear, you'regoing to have to get used to the
fact that the house isn't goingto be as clean as when you were
in charge of it, because Idon't really care as much about
a clean house as you do.
All I'll promise you is thatI'll make sure it's not a death
trap for the kids.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
Right.
Speaker 3 (49:10):
Not full of mold and mildew, and I'll take care of it
at a reasonable level.
But you can't yell at me when Idon't keep it as clean as you
do.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Yeah, I think those are all great conversations that
you know more.
I think this generation is moreopen to having those
conversations and I think we canstart to see some change.
Some of that change I want toget as we're getting closer to
wrapping up today's conversation.
I was just wondering if therewas a one practical step or a
one takeaway you'd want ouraudience to get from our
conversations.
There's so many things wetouched on today, but if we
could summarize a step or a oran idea to help the help men and
(49:50):
women who are listening to theshow move forward and move
closer together, what would thatbe?
Speaker 3 (49:55):
I'm a big fan of the I feel statement you familiar.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:59):
I'm a big fan of that and I think that is really the
first step that men can taketoward integrity.
If he's really lacking inintegrity and is afraid to say
what's really real for himbecause he's afraid his wife
will get mad or she won't lovehim, or she'll think he's a wimp
, or he won't be able to find agirlfriend Whatever is keeping
him from owning what he feels.
(50:23):
I like to say that if a mandisconnects his emotions, he's
like disconnecting his sparkplugs.
Yeah, your emotions are thespark plugs of your personality.
It's they really determine alot about how you, how your life
goes, and the I feel statementallows you, in a nice way, to
(50:49):
just say, to state what you arefeeling, what you are feeling.
Not you're wrong for making mefeel the way that you are making
me feel, and I deserve to getwhat I want, because not having
(51:11):
what I want makes me feel bad.
No, I suggest, at difficultconversations with wives and
girlfriends, let me hold yourhand while we talk.
Yeah, and I would like to talkwith you about something and it
just is.
Look, when this happened 20minutes ago, I felt really
whatever you felt, and it's notyour fault, but can we talk
about how I feel, why I feelthis way and what we could do
(51:35):
different next time.
And then it works beautifully,because if the woman has any
semblance of love for you leftif she still respects you at all
she wants to help you, shewants what's best for her family
.
She'll say, oh my God, I didn'trealize.
Tell me, talk to me more, andshe's not defensive.
I didn't realize, tell me, talkto me more, and she's not
(51:56):
defensive and you're notaccusatory.
And you get to leave theconversation thinking, wow, I
really stood up for myself and Imight not get what I want, but
I got the basic thing I want,which is to just be myself, to
stand up and say who I am andwhat's important to me.
(52:17):
So that's what I would.
That's what I would recommendas a really key thing for men
who are just lost and out of gas.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
Love that, I love that and absolutely the I feel
statement, or is a great way toown what's happening and to keep
it, and keep it within thatsphere, versus pointing fingers.
I just want to say, jack, wehad, we spent a great deal of
time talking on lots of stuffand I'm sure we could have dived
in for two or three more hours,so I just want to say thank you
so much for helping us get aglimpse of what some of these
often overlooked challenges thatmen and boys are facing today.
So if men are interested ingetting a hold of you and
(52:52):
participating in any of yourwork, what's the best way for
them to do that?
Speaker 3 (52:56):
So the hub of everything that I do is
male-friendly media.
All one word, no hyphens, nodash malefriendlymediacom.
And that's where I have prettymuch everything of any import
that I've ever done, startingwith my radio show back in 1983.
I've been digitizing them.
(53:16):
It's been amazing to listen tothem from 42 years ago.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
It's been fun.
Speaker 3 (53:23):
So that's it, malefriendlymediacom.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
You bet I'll make sure that's in today's show
notes, as well as wherever elseyou are on social media and make
sure that people get a chanceto reach out and speak with you.
You're doing phenomenal work.
Thank you so much for reachingout and really enjoyed our
conversation today.
Speaker 3 (53:37):
I did too.
I'll thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Thank you for listening to the Revolutionary
man podcast.
Are you ready to own yourdestiny, to become more the man
you were destined to be?
Join the brotherhood that isthe Awakened man at
theawakendmannet and startforging a new destiny today.
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