January 8, 2025 • 41 mins
Let me know your thoughts on the show and what topic you would like me to discuss next.
What happens when societal norms push us toward habits that don't serve our wellbeing? Join us as we uncover the transformative journey of Duncan Bhaskaran Brown, founder of the Sober Warrior Program, who has turned his personal battle with alcohol dependency into a path of empowerment. Through Duncan's poignant story, including the life-changing experience of facing a miscarriage, we explore the pivotal moments that can lead one to embrace sobriety. This episode promises practical steps to reclaim energy, boost productivity, and foster meaningful relationships, all without the crutch of alcohol.
Beliefs about alcohol can often fuel our consumption more than the actual substance itself. Discover how societal perceptions, particularly those shaped by media, may distort our understanding of alcohol's role in our lives. Addressing these misconceptions, especially for men who might use alcohol as a means of emotional suppression, is critical. We dive into the importance of emotional literacy and management, highlighting the often-overlooked dip in life satisfaction after quitting alcohol. Building emotional intelligence and forging strong social connections are vital strategies for navigating these challenges and achieving personal growth.
Alcohol dependency can significantly impact mental health and workplace productivity, and businesses are starting to take notice. This episode shines a light on the need for tailored recovery methods and annual health screenings to support employees. Learn how the Sober Warrior Program offers strategies for professionals struggling with drinking habits that have spiralled out of control. We emphasize the value of personalized sobriety plans and the power of accepting praise to nurture self-worth. Duncan's insights provide a roadmap to explore one's potential, reminding us that embracing a life free from dependency is not just possible but profoundly rewarding.
Key moments in this episode:
04:07 Duncan's Journey to Sobriety
05:08 The Turning Point: Choosing Family Over Alcohol
13:51 Mindset and Beliefs About Alcohol
16:54 Emotional Intelligence and Sobriety
20:27 Support Systems and Relapse Prevention
26:01 Workplace Support for Sobriety
31:18 The Sober Warrior Program
35:04 Final Thoughts and Advice
How to reach Duncan:
Website: https://www.bhaskaranbrown.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/duncan.brown.5648/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/soberwarriorcoach/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/duncanbhaskaranbrown/
Thanks for listening to the Revolutionary Man Podcast. If you want more information about our programs, use the links below to check us out. It could be the step that changes your life.
Want to be a guest on The Revolutionary Man Podcast? Send Alain Dumonceaux a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/revolutionarymanpodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Imagine waking up every morning feeling drained,
your productivity at an all-timelow and your relationships are
strained by your struggle withalcohol.
You've tried to cut back orquit altogether, but the cycle
of overindulgence continues,leaving you feeling powerless.
Now envision a life whereyou've had boundless energy,
heightened productivity andthriving relationships.
(00:21):
In a thriving relationships.
This transformation is possible, but requires confronting the
grip of alcohol has on your life, and it's taking deliberate
steps towards making that change.
And so in today's episode,we're going to explore the
journey from dependency toempowerment and covering the
practical steps to break free.
Told.
Before we get in today's episode, let's also come to grips about
(00:43):
something else, and thatinevitably there will come a
time in our lives when we willhit a wall, whether that's a
marriage that's not working, ora career in business that's
stagnated, or your personal lifeis completely flatlined.
So if you're dealing with anyof these, or a combination of
them, and are finally fed upwith where your life's at, I'm
going to encourage you to allowme to help you get clear about
(01:04):
what needs to get done and howto do that, so you can get back
to living the life you weremeant to live.
Just look in today's show notesand book a clarity call.
Let's get started today Withthat.
Let's get on with today'sepisode.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
The average man today is sleepwalking through life,
many never reaching their truepotential, let alone ever
crossing the finish line toliving a purposeful life.
Yet the hunger still exists,albeit buried amidst his
cluttered mind, misguidedbeliefs and values that no
longer serve him.
It's time to align yourself forgreatness.
(01:41):
It's time to become arevolutionary man.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Stay strong, my brother.
Welcome everyone to theRevolutionary man podcast.
I'm the founder of the Awakenedman Movement and your host,
alan DeMonso.
As you listen to today'sepisode, think about your own
relationships with alcohol ormaybe any other habits that you
have, and how might these beaffecting your energy, your
productivity and yourrelationships.
Consider what steps you cantake to regain control of your
(02:11):
life, and have a more fulfillingone at that, and consider the
societal norms around drinkingand productivity.
How can you challenge thesenorms and support a healthier or
productive lifestyle foryourself and those around you?
Our guest today is going toshare insights on how we can
increase our energy, power, upour productivity and build much
(02:33):
healthier relationships, andhe's going to guide us on this
path to becoming a revolutionaryman who lives with purpose and
fulfillment.
So allow me to introduce myguest.
Duncan Bashkaran Brown is thefounder of Sober Warrior Program
and is a renowned expert inhelping individuals overcome
alcohol dependency, and withover 20 years of personal
experience with overindulgence,duncan's transformed his life
(02:58):
and dedicated himself to guidingothers on the path of sobriety.
He trained with the world'smost successful stop smoking
service and holds certificationsfrom esteemed institutions Such
as Cornell University andChartered Management Institute
and Duncan's also the author ofReal Men Quit, a practical guide
to beating alcohol addictionand reclaiming one's life, and
(03:19):
it's through this work heempowers people to create their
energy, enhance productivity andimprove relationships and live
fulfilling lives without the useof alcohol.
Welcome to the show, duncan.
How are things, my friend?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Thank you very much for having me.
I'm looking forward for today.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
I really was inspired by your journey and as the
father of a son who struggledwith making healthy decisions
with drugs and alcohol.
This really is close to myheart, this subject, and so I'm
always keen on hearing fromexperts such as yourself of how
they defeated this demon,because it is quite the battle
(03:59):
for many people out there aroundthe world, especially men, and
so we, we always start ourconversations by talking a
little bit more about yourhero's quest, and so that each
of us will have these definingmoments in our lives that
changed the course of ourdestiny.
So tell us about that one ofthose moments, what you did
about it, and how's thatexperience shaped you into the
man you are today.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Yeah, I'm not so sure I'm a hero.
Certainly I don't know whethergoing out and slaying dragons is
exactly my story.
I think it's more a kind ofmaybe I don't know Gulliver's
Travels.
I went a few places, I met somepeople, I made some bad choices
, but in the end I managed tofind my way home and I came back
(04:43):
.
You know, a rich in the senseof experience and knowledge,
rich human being.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Absolutely, but it is those experiences in our lives
that really, really show us whatwe're truly made of, and so
tell us a little bit more aboutthat lowest point, then, for
your life, of what, what wasoccurring around that timeframe,
what was your mindset like andwhat were some steps that you
started to take in order to getyou out of that position?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Sure, you know, what makes a really good story is
that moment where you stare inthe mirror at 4 am and you
realize that it's all goinghorribly wrong.
I mean, that never happened tome.
It reached ahead over a periodof years really, I mean in terms
of alcohol.
Alcohol it got to a point mywife and I we were trying to
start a family.
(05:29):
We were doing all right on theadult front.
We, we had jobs.
I was always relativelysuccessful despite the drinking,
and we had jobs.
We, we had somewhere to live.
So we thought, why not, let'sstart a family, let's do the
ultimate adult thing?
And we were just like all ofthose kind of young parents.
As soon as my wife got pregnant,we just turned into idiots and
(05:50):
we were like happy all the time.
It was like, oh, it's amazing,and yeah, we were very naive and
it was all going incrediblywell until we we stepped into an
ultra scan room with thatparticular nurse who pointed out
that my wife was having amiscarriage, and then it all
just crumbled and it allcollapsed and obviously that was
(06:11):
incredibly hard on my wifephysically, mentally,
emotionally.
But what made it a lot worsewas I just wasn't there for her
and my reaction to stress wasalways just to open a bottle and
hope it'll go away, and that'sexactly the opposite of what she
needed, wasn't it?
And, like I say, I never stoodin front of the mirror and
(06:33):
phrased it in a really clear way, but looking back now I can see
that I spent six weeks, twomonths, really getting to grips
with what it was that I wantedout of life.
What was I here for?
What was the point of Duncan?
And now I can see it just camedown to this single question
(06:53):
what do you want?
Do you want to have anotherdrink or do you want to start a
family?
And the good news is I made theright decision and, almost nine
months to the day after Istopped drinking, our daughter
was born, which was amazing forabout 10 minutes, and then my
world had a whole different setof problems to it.
But they're good problems,aren't they?
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, absolutely this .
And having becoming a firsttime father and kicking a
drinking habit and decided, hey,I'm not, I'm going to make this
shift Lots of pressure.
I can remember as a youngcouple, having our children and,
on top of that, buying a newvehicle and getting into a house
we were house rich and cashpoor and all the pressures that
we put on ourselves.
(07:36):
And, as I don't know about you,but for me as a man, I really
felt like I just, I just didn't,couldn't hold it together, I
wasn't capable of doing this.
Yet I was moving us, trying tomove us forward at a pace,
thinking that this is whatneeded to be done, and we make
these decisions in moments ofunder pressure and when we look
(07:56):
back at it, it's alwayshindsight, it's always 2020.
It's interesting how differentthings happen in our lives.
It makes us.
We come up with these ideas onhow to move forward, and they
aren't always the greatest ones,right.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Oh, absolutely, and I think it's not like I stopped
drinking and, all of a sudden,life was roses and sitting
around discussing the poetry ofJohn Keats, I think.
If anything, I felt thatpressure even more.
I think a lot of men, we feellike we've got to provide,
haven't we?
We've got to go out and we'vegot to do it, and I think
there's probably a whole otherlayer of pressure put on men now
(08:33):
.
I think there's a lot moreexpectations about us being
great fathers and spending timewith our kids, which is
important, but there's alsoexpectations that we're great
cooks as well, so we've got tospend time in the kitchen and
all of those kind of things.
I very much felt the pressure ofthat, and particularly when my
daughter was young.
To an extent, I still do,because you've got to keep the
(08:56):
fridge full of food, haven't you?
But yeah, that was somethingthat was particularly difficult
in the first few years since I'dstopped drinking.
I was lucky that I was veryresolved and very certain that I
wasn't going to go back todrinking.
However, I was a little bitnaive and I thought to myself
I'm not drinking now, whichmeans I can pretty much eat
(09:18):
whatever I like, and that turnedout not to be quite correct and
I got to to a point so my wifegot quite ill when our daughter
was pretty young, and then thatwas like that just ramped up the
pressure even more and I got tothe point where I'd put my
daughter to bed and I wassitting on my own in the dark
eating triple chocolate chipcookies and like I really wasn't
(09:39):
enjoying them they just tastedawful, they were making me feel
sick, uh.
But I just felt this compulsionto keep eating and all of a
sudden, like it just struck meas, duncan, you are eating
exactly the same way you used todrink.
So all of that pressure neversent me back to the drinking,
but it did lead me down anotherpath, which ultimately I'm quite
(10:01):
grateful I went down that pathbecause it meant I had to stand
up and do something and I had tosort out my diet, and it's a
lot better.
These days.
I'm pretty much completelywhole food, plant-based, which
is like veganism but morehardcore yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
It's interesting that you talk about how that
transition for you and I've seenthat as well in my journeys
with with my mother-in-law Hervice was alcohol as well, and
when she got clean and she wasdoing all right, it just
transitioned.
We didn't find out until aftershe passed away that it
transitioned to gambling and shenever was really able to
(10:39):
overcome that.
And so it's interesting thatthese things happen.
But you were able to, in bothinstances, to figure out and
really ask yourself thatquestion, duncan what do I want
to do?
Do I want to have another drinkor have another bite to eat, or
do I want to do somethingdifferent?
Take care of my family?
And so let's get into talkingabout your book, real Men Quit,
(10:59):
and what the premise of the bookis about and what are things
that we can expect to see in it.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
What the premise of the book is about and what are
things we can expect to see init.
I did some work with this guyand he was in the Royal Marine
Commandos, which is a prettyelite bit of the British armed
forces.
It actually has the longestinfantry training course in the
world, so it's quite hardcore.
But that wasn't enough for him.
So he passed selection andjoined the Special Boat Service,
(11:27):
which is the sort of theBritish equivalent of the Navy
SEALs, and he was a disciplinedman, a lot of self-control, a
lot of determination, a lot ofwhat I think the Americans call
intestinal fortitude, and he wasa very.
Everything in his life wasabsolutely under control,
(11:47):
Everything was squared away,apart from the drinking.
He just couldn't seem to get ahandle on his drinking.
It just creeped up and up.
In the military there is a bitof a culture of drinking and
since he'd left the forces beingon deployment less and being
less active, it just creeped upand it was really starting to
affect his business.
(12:08):
And it occurred to me that ifsomebody like that, somebody
that disciplined and just withthat much self-control, if they
can get caught in the trap, thenany of us can.
And there's no shame, itdoesn't make you weak, because,
trust me, this guy was not weak.
It doesn't make you weak andthat's why I wanted to write
(12:35):
something specifically for men,because I think we do have, you
know, a different sort of viewof the problems, that a lot of
men drink for different reasons,that you know what we talked
about right at the start thatkind of pressure to provide, to
be strong to well, to not beweak.
That's part of the reason why alot of guys drink.
So I wanted to get to gripswith that and just say look, you
know, some of the toughestpeople on the planet struggle
(12:56):
with it, and some of the mostsuccessful people on the planet
have become the most successfulpeople on the planet after they
stopped doing it.
So you've got to realize it'snot a weakness in you, but
actually getting past it couldbe a huge strength.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Absolutely, it's one of those things that we need to
overcome, and so I always likethe idea in our men's work here
of talking about everyone beingon their own hero's journey or
their hero's quest.
And it's these moments in ourlives where we are faced with
this piece, this thing, that weneed to deal with.
And as we start to deal withthat, then the mentor needs to
(13:31):
come along, and then I reallysee that's what your book is
doing for men to show us thatthere is a path forward, and I
know in your book you talk aboutdifferent ways for us to do
that.
So let's touch a little bit onmindset and how our mindset
really can either reveal ahindrance to us or help us
forward.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah, no, I mean, I think I take a very cognitive
approach.
So obviously I do think mindsetis really where it's at, and
the thing that I always startwith people is beliefs.
You have a lot of beliefsaround alcohol.
Most men believe it makes themstrong, it helps them to
socializeize, it helps them todeal with stress, it's the way
(14:12):
they bond, it's friendship, it'sso many things and those
beliefs, they dictate how muchyou drink.
And that that's not my belief.
That's actually supported bythe research.
All of the research search showsthat what you expect to get
from alcohol not what you getfrom it, but what you expect to
get from it pretty much dictateshow much of it you're going to
(14:34):
drink.
So we start with your beliefs,and I think it's really
interesting because our beliefsdictate so many of our actions.
So, for example, I always usedto take the seeds out of chili
peppers.
I like I was religious about it, like every time I'd use
chilies in cooking, I wouldalways take the seeds out,
because I'd read somewhere thatthe seeds were the spicy bit.
(14:56):
They're not.
They're absolutely not.
It's all spicy, like everysingle last bit of the chili is
spicy.
Removing the seeds it's notgoing to help at all, but I did
it for ages and ages because Ibelieved that was the truth and
that's why we drink a lot of thetime, because we believe it's
the truth.
So I think the first thing to dois to identify those beliefs,
(15:17):
bring them out into the open andstart to question them.
Say, is it true, honestly, isit true that drinking alcohol
makes you tough andsophisticated and attractive to
the girls?
Or is that just because you'vewatched James Bond too much?
So we start off with?
Are they true?
And then we'd like to move intoother kind of ideas.
(15:38):
Basically around it Is itserving you, even if drinking
does have some marginaladvantage in terms of
socialization or networking?
Is it really helping you becomethe person that you want to be?
And what I find is that oncepeople really get to grips with
most of those questions, theyfind the rest of it fairly easy.
There is another bit aroundthought management that's very
(16:00):
well explained in the book andsomething that I've worked with
people, but it is getting togrips with those beliefs.
That's absolutely the firststep.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
That makes complete sense because we have these.
We'll create these falsebeliefs, these misconceptions of
what we think this is doing forus and let's just replace
drinking with any othersubstance or any other habit
We'll form these beliefs aroundwhat we think it's doing for us,
and maybe it doesn't make usmore powerful, but maybe we feel
(16:30):
that it does other things.
And I think that's for menbecause we struggle with
managing our emotions at timesthat we look for these different
ways to deal with it.
And so talk a little bit aboutsome of your work and helping
men who are going through thisprocess with you, and how are
they handling their emotions andhow are you seeing that
(16:52):
impacting their their pathforward?
Speaker 3 (16:55):
so the research that we've done suggests that
emotions are a massive part ofthe equation and and actually,
funnily enough, not just withmen, but particularly men.
Yes, we're not exactlyencouraged to talk about them in
the first place, are we?
So what I find with a lot ofmen is part of the reason they
(17:17):
drink is to suppress thoseemotions, to get rid of them.
They believe that they candrink the feelings away.
Of course, that's not true, butwhat?
One of the things that a lot ofpeople don't ever talk about in
the sober community, whichannoys me quite a lot, is that,
yes, you feel better when youstop drinking.
Trust me, it's like you willfeel a lot better.
(17:41):
Your mood will improve, yourphysical health will improve,
your gut health will improve,you will physically feel an
awful lot better, which makes alot of sense.
If you stop pouring poison downyour throat, of course, you're
going to feel a lot better, butthere is a period somewhere
between about three and 15months after people stop
drinking where they tend to havea bit of a dip and their life
(18:05):
satisfaction dips below thepoint that it was when they were
actually drinking, which oftenmanifests itself as some sort of
fairly big, not very nicecrisis and a lot of the time
that is to do with emotions andpeople don't tell you that, and
I wish they did more.
I wish they were more openabout it, because then you'd
(18:25):
expect it when it happens.
And actually in the timerunning up to that, you can
start to learn some of thethings that will really help you
get past that dip.
Just getting your life in amore kind of stable point of
view from a kind of job, house,money, transport, those kind of
areas that's quite important.
(18:46):
Getting your health and youraccess to healthcare under
control, that's really important.
But the other things thatreally make a difference to
people are trigger management,so that kind of managing the
thought process that I talkedabout earlier.
There's loads of that in thebook.
But also just being a bit moreemotionally literate, being a
bit better about talking abouthow you feel.
(19:07):
Most men think there are threeemotions, don't they?
Bad, sad and glad, and there'sa whole palette and actually
learning to be a bit moredescriptive and a bit more
comfortable talking about them.
It can make a huge difference.
Learning how to regulate them,how to stand in front of them,
realizing that actually they aregoing to pass.
(19:28):
Feeling a bit bad is notactually a death sentence.
It will pass if you feelunhappy, but you aren't going to
feel unhappy for the rest ofyour life.
It's nothing to be scared of.
So that kind of emotionalintelligence is huge bit.
And then building connectionsto other people I don't think
that comes as a surprise.
We are a very social species,aren't we?
(19:48):
And building those connectionsis I absolutely agree with that.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
I was I'm really I'm taken aback by that, by what you
had said there.
I hadn't recognized that nuancethat you just brought forward
about that time frame in between3 and 15 months.
When they're when we're,they'll typically have a lapse.
This doesn't mean it happensall the time, but but it happens
enough that it's statistical,and I completely agree with you,
having attended a few differentversions of AA and Malanon and
(20:16):
different things like that.
This was never discussed andthere wasn't any preparation for
that, at least not in the groupsetting, and so I'm happy to
hear that's something thatyou're addressing.
What are some other things thatthese hidden truths I'll call
them that aren't being spokenabout, that your, that your work
is trying to address?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
The one thing that I'd like to get people to
understand is that it's actuallya lot easier than you'd think.
The actual bit of stoppingdrinking.
That really is relativelystraightforward and a lot of
people they don't do it becausethey're afraid.
They literally don't think thatthey can live their life any
(20:57):
other way.
In fact, you know, if youreally dive into the literature,
a lot of people use dependencyrather than addiction and if you
think about it, that makes alot of sense because, certainly
for me, I believed that Idepended on alcohol to make my
life work.
I could not see a way ofgetting through life, handling
stress, socializing, coping withmy emotional life, my
(21:19):
relationships without alcohol.
That was the problem.
I believed that I depended onit.
So getting to grips with all ofthat makes moving away from it
so much easier.
And yes, there's a huge amountabout helping people to navigate
through that early sobrietyperiod.
And I get why a lot of the time, people are a bit reluctant to
(21:41):
talk about relapses or lapses orlearning new things, as they
can be.
It's because we don't want youto do it like, we don't want to
set you up for doing it, so wetend not to talk about it, but
it happens and it happens withamazing frequency.
And again, if you dive into theliterature, you'll find that a
good relapse prevention program,particularly something based
(22:05):
around mindfulness, you know,anything that helps you to
become more aware of youremotions and your thoughts, you
know that can massively increaseyour odds of remaining sober
and it will absolutelyoutperform the traditional 12
step approach.
And I think the other thingthat we tend to ignore is that
(22:25):
the methods that I use to stopsmoking and drinking and eating
junk food saved my life.
So I'm a bit passionate aboutthem.
Of course I am.
They literally I wouldn't behere today if it wasn't for them
.
You've got and a lot of peopleare like that, but you've got to
get past this evangelical kindof this is the only method that
(22:46):
works thing.
I see that all of the time.
It's, yes, it changed your lifeBrilliant, but that doesn't
mean it's going to changeeverybody's life.
It doesn't mean it is the rightthing for everybody and
everybody's got to find theirown path.
And you've got the people thatI've met that have been most
successful.
Whatever they used to start offtheir journey into sobriety,
(23:07):
whether that was cognitiverealignment or whether that was
a group program or therapy.
They haven't just stayed there.
That was the starting point andthey've moved on and they found
a lot of other things that havereally helped and I think
that's the ultimate truth of youcould say recovery, you could
say life itself.
You've got to find your ownpath.
(23:29):
You've got to find what worksfor you and you've got to learn
not to get bent out of shapebecause the gurus all tell you
to meditate and you hatemeditating.
Okay, meditating might not bethe right thing for you, don't
sweat it.
Realize what meditation isuseful for and find something
else that will fulfill that foryou and add that into your life.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I completely agree with that.
I think there's lots ofdifferent ways to lots of
different paths to your to reachyour ultimate goal, and one of
the things that in our lives wealways, we always talk about my
wife and I talk about, when youcome across a new piece of
information is and then you getexcited about oh wow, this is a,
this is such great information.
(24:12):
But soon you realize yourecognize that there are some
flaws in it and there's someholes.
I should say, and it's okay,you just take what works for us
and it works for you and thenleave the rest.
There's nothing.
Nobody says it has to be all ornothing, and I think sometimes
we have that mindset said, thisis the four-step path or the
nine-step path or whatever it is, and maybe three of the out of
(24:36):
the five of the steps are whatworks for you.
But the point is that you'removing forward and that's what I
liked about your description.
There's you.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Some of these things are just starting places and
it's about the evolution ofabout who you are, because as
you evolve, you'll needdifferent resources, you'll need
different things yeah, yeah,even the people that I know
who've really worked the 12steps that when you sit down and
like really dig into it withthem, they always favor one step
above all of the other ones,and often they they do stuff
(25:06):
that's really not on the menu.
In fact, I interviewed somebodythe other day who stopped
drinking using AA, which is likea very kind of that's that way
of doing it.
It's quite solid and okay, andthen she got really into
crystals and energy healing andthat is completely somewhere
else, but it works for her.
(25:26):
I don't think it's going towork for me.
I'm not sure how many of yourlisteners it's going to work for
, but if it works for you, do it, dude, and why not try it?
Like the man says, there aremore things in heaven and earth
than I dreamt of in yourphilosophy that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
That's, that's absolutely for sure.
So we've been spending a bit oftime here in our conversation
talking about the individual andhelping them.
But what about the situationwhere maybe it's work
environment right, and today'swork environment where if
someone discloses to you thatthey have they're having
struggles with alcohol orwhatever their vice is?
(26:01):
What can businesses do to helpsupport that individual, to help
them get healthy on theirjourney?
See?
Speaker 3 (26:09):
I think a lot of businesses still see drinking
too much as a disciplinary issue, something to be packed off to
HR, and I think that is a realshame because a lot of the
really good businesses havealready done most of the work.
They just haven't quite joinedit up a lot.
So all really good businessesthese days will have quite a
(26:32):
well-developed well-beingprogram.
They realize that happy,healthy employees are good for
the bottom line.
I'd love to think they weredoing it entirely altruistically
, but of course not.
It's just if your employees arehappy and healthy, they will be
far more productive.
It's just like basic stuff.
So well-being is something thatbusinesses talk about a lot and
(26:54):
they're getting more and morecomfortable with Mental health,
again something that a lot ofcompanies are getting more and
more comfortable with.
They've done the maths.
You know the chances of themhaving employees that have
mental health issues.
It's just astronomical, it'slike it's very common.
So they've got to do somethingto help their employees so they
can be more productive.
And again, you know it helpsthe bottom line.
(27:17):
They've done the maths on thatone.
They just haven't quite workedout that the number one thing
that affects people's wellbeingis the amount that they drink
and one of the most commonmental health problems in the
world is drinking too much.
And if you can just join thosetwo concepts up and realize that
(27:40):
alcohol is such a keydeterminant of people's
well-being and that it's also ithas a knock-on effect both ways
.
So mental health issues cancause people to drink more and
drinking more can cause mentalhealth issues Just joining those
two things up I think that issuch a huge start.
And then there are plenty ofthings that businesses can do to
(28:05):
help.
We're massively keen on healthscreening, so that's once a year
.
You should be asked 10 to 12questions by somebody with a
reasonable amount of trainingwho can just assess where your
drinking is, at what level it isat.
If you are at the nice low risklevel, then brilliant, great,
(28:26):
crack on with that.
If you have creeped up into amore of a moderate risk level,
then they can give you someadvice 10 minutes maybe, not
even that, maybe just a PDF anda couple of words of
encouragement to help you getback down to that lower risk
drinking area.
And, of course, if you'vecreeped over into the kind of
moderate to severe area, thenthere are different approaches.
(28:48):
I would always take a coachingapproach with that, help people
to understand the effect thatit's having on their life, get
to grips with some of thosebeliefs, do a bit of the thought
management piece, help them putin place a plan that is going
to work for them, is going tosuit them, because I don't just
go around and tell everybodythey should be sober.
Definitely everybody shouldn'tbe like me.
That's really not a good idea.
(29:11):
Some people do need to stopdrinking and should never drink
again, but that's not true foreverybody.
It's developing that plan thatworks for that individual.
And then, of course, if youemploy any amount of people, you
will identify some of them whoare drinking far too much and
really do need some seriousprofessional help.
So that kind of screeningprocess it's so quick, so easy
(29:34):
and you know it should behappening annually.
And I think if you actually getto grip, if you get to talk to
most people in the medicalbusiness, they'd love to run
that annually with theirpatients.
It's just they don't have thetime or the resources to do it
and I think businesses they do.
They frankly have theopportunity to do that and again
(29:55):
, it would make a hugedifference to productivity, to
relationships, to retention.
It would differentiate themfrom other employers, which
helps them to attract the toptalent.
And this is, at the end of theday, the World Health
Organization who developed thesesort of brief interventions,
(30:15):
these brief screening tools, andthey sat down with a panel of
experts and decided on a fewgroups that were high risk and
should be screened annually, andbusiness executives was one of
them.
And if you think about it, itmakes a lot of sense.
Business executives have a lotof stress.
In our society, we believe thatstress is, you know, something
(30:37):
that alcohol can help with.
So, of course, you're going tofind a lot of drinking among
businesses.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Yeah, I completely, completely agree that between
business and the well-beingopportunity of us is doing that
check-in gives us, gives thebusiness and the employee that
chance to connect on a differentlevel.
That chance to connect on adifferent level other than just
being receiving a paycheck andgetting your annual performance
review and having something thatthat ties you a little deeper
and closer to that business.
(31:03):
And especially for this youngergeneration of the millennials
are looking for that other edge,that other piece.
What are the things that myemployer can give me?
And no, I know you wrote the,you've had the book with that we
just talked about earlier.
But you also have the soberwarrior program.
Talk a little bit about yourprogram, how and how you're
using that to help people.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
So we work with two different types of people.
One of them are the people thatkind of they got to a point
where they really do need to dosomething about their drinking.
In general they tend to beprofessionals.
They tend to be quitesuccessful people.
They tend to be professionals.
They tend to be quitesuccessful people.
They tend to be holding down ajob.
But over the years the drinkinghas creeped up and it's now
(31:44):
getting to a point where they'redrinking either daily or very
heavily on the weekends and it'sstarting to have an effect and
they want to do something aboutit.
So those are the kind of thepeople that want to make a big
change around alcohol.
But we also do a lot of workwith people who have already
stopped drinking, and it isalmost to the point that if you
(32:04):
tell me what method you use tostop drinking, I will tell you
what you're going to be bad at,because all methods have
strengths and all methods haveweaknesses, and we like to think
we're reasonably good atplugging the gaps and filling in
the holes and helping you tobuild that more holistic kind of
sobriety, the kind of sobrietythat sticks.
(32:27):
And what a lot of people thatwe work with they're in this
phase of trying to stabilize andwe help them to create that
stability and then from thatstability they help to really
they propel, they pop, andthat's where you get the success
.
And I can, you know, I can boreyou for days about examples of
(32:47):
people who've stopped drinking,got that stability in their life
and then just gone on and donesome amazing things in business,
in sport, in adventure, youknow, in creativity almost any
field you can.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yes, I would agree with you.
I think there are people.
We look at these differentprograms and there's lots of
different ways to do things thatwe've been talking about
through this conversation today,and there are those pitfalls,
and so helping them become awareof that and then developing a
game plan that allows them tosee a path forward he really is
the key to the success of thisprogram, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Yeah, and I mean I'm very keen on education theory
because I'm quite boring, and ifyou look at the way people
learn, everybody learns in adifferent way.
Everybody approaches problemsin a different way.
Everybody approaches problemsin a different way.
And I think that's what wereally try to do is we try to
sit down, meet you where you'reat, but also get a bit of an
(33:45):
understanding about how youtackle problems, because I could
tell you a bunch of reallygreat books that you could read
that would blow your mind.
But if you're that kind ofperson that wants to just get
stuck in and learns by doing,then that is absolutely the
worst advice you could ever get,isn't it?
You've just, and it's aboutforming a plan that that works
(34:09):
for you and meets you whereyou're at and embraces your uh,
your the way you approach life,because so many people I know
they went to school and thosekind of people, those very
dynamic people who just can'tsit still and just want to learn
by doing.
What did they have to do atschool?
They had to sit still and readbooks and look at the blackboard
(34:32):
and they were told for yearsand years that it was a
disadvantage, that it was aweakness, that there was
something wrong with them.
Wrong with them and it's nodude.
That's just how you roll and we.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
I love it when you can turn that into people
absolutely, and what I, what I'mhearing you saying, is that
you're what your program isdoing is matching the actual
program with the personality, sothat because that's what's
going to stick, and not tryingto force a square peg into a
round hole.
So I think that's, that's kudosto you for recognizing that
through your journey and throughthe work that you've been doing
(35:04):
.
But in considering your journey, I'm sure you've had a mentor
or two that has had some impacton your life, and so next
question for you is what's thebest piece of advice you've been
given and how is it stillserving you today?
Speaker 3 (35:16):
So the two pieces of advice that I really?
The first one is the only pieceof advice about parenting that
makes any sense, and that isthat your kids will ignore
everything you say and copyeverything that you do.
So for me, that is about notjust telling my daughter how to
(35:37):
behave, but actually trying tomodel the behavior that I want
to see her.
So I am quite concerned aboutthe digital environment that she
is shortly to be plunged into,and I think the best thing I can
do is actually develop a fairlyhealthy relationship with my
own tech usage and then modelthat to her.
(35:59):
So that's number one.
But I mean my good friend andmentor, r Michael Anderson.
He doesn't drink, partly why Ilike him, partly because he's
awesome.
He taught me that you've got tobe able to take the praise, and
I think this is something thatmost people are particularly bad
(36:20):
at.
I think men are awful at it ingeneral.
We just say, oh, it was nothing, I just did what anybody would
have done.
It's absolutely nothing, it's asmall thing, and you know what?
I think we need to just getbetter at going.
Look, I appreciate that youthink I did something that
really helped you out and I'mgoing to take a moment to stand
(36:41):
in that power and recognize yourthanks and that I did something
good and I think there's thiskind of like self-awareness
piece so often it gets hijackedby being aware of what you're
not very good at and actuallydeveloping that awareness for
when you have done somethinggood.
That has been really big for meand it has really helped me to
(37:07):
live a happier, chilled out,more fulfilled life and I now
love it when my clients say nicethings and I always I bizarrely
get into this kind of.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
I really want to thank you for thanking me that's
a great piece of advice, though, because it is something that
we have to learn.
Lots of people not just men,but in our work here with men is
that learning to be able toaccept praise and when we talked
, I changed that around a littlebit.
A couple of months ago, we dida month on talking about how to
accept and receive love.
Is that something that we don'tdo as men very well, and so I
(37:44):
like this, that you've addedpraise to it, and so love, that
information that you were ableto garner from your mentor.
And, as we close out today'sconversation, maybe there was,
maybe we've talked about it, ormaybe there's something we
didn't get a chance to talkabout.
What would be the one piece ofadvice you'd give our listeners?
Speaker 3 (38:00):
Oh, that's easy.
You are enough, something Iwould love everybody to really
understand and tattoo acrosstheir heart.
You are enough.
You have everything inside youthat you need to live a happy,
healthy, fulfilling, meaningful,purposeful, enjoyable life.
You don't need alcohol, youdon't need cigarettes, you don't
(38:22):
need junk foods, you don't needgambling.
You don't need Facebook.
You don't need so much of it,because you are enough.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Love that.
That is perfect.
Great way to wrap up today'sconversation today with us.
Duncan, I just want to saythank you so much for spending
time with us today and showingus a way through any type of
grip that we may that may betaking over our lives, and
today's been focusing on alcohol.
If men are interested ingetting a hold of you and
participating in your work,what's the best way for them to
(38:49):
do that?
Speaker 3 (38:50):
So if you want to grab a copy of Real Men Quit,
just type Real Men and Quit intoAmazon and they'll drone it
over in the next 30 minutes orsomething.
But if you wanted to connect oranything, the best way to do
that is to go to my website.
Now, if you can spell Baskerand Brown, it's really easy.
But nobody can spell it.
In fact, most people can't evenpronounce it.
(39:11):
So this is the deal.
If you put getoveruk that'sgetoveruk into your search
engine of choice, it will takeyou to a bit of my website and
there you can download a copy ofmy first book, get Over
Indulgence.
It's the PDF, the Kindle or, ifyou can stand listening to me
for three hours and 45 minutes,you can listen to the audio book
(39:31):
as well.
So that's like my gift to yourlisteners.
It might give them a little bitof a nudge in the right
direction and expand a littlebit on my story, but it also, as
I say, is a piece of my website.
You can, from there find outabout the programs, find us on
social media, connect, say hi.
Always happy to talk about that.
(39:53):
There's a ton of stuff on ourwebsite.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Absolutely.
I want to make sure thatinformation is in today's show
notes, as well as whereveryou're hiding on social media.
We're gonna we're gonna stalkyou and find you and make sure
that we get people to come toyou.
And because you're doing someamazing work here, duncan, once
again, thank you so much forbeing on the show today it's my
absolute pleasure and thank youfor all of the work that you're
doing it.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
It's so important, I think, that, as men, we do
organize and start talking aboutthe problems that we have
getting them on the agenda.
So I hope all the listeners cango and give you a five-star
review on all of their favoritepodcast platforms to help.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
you.
Really appreciate it, thank youso much.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Thank you for listening to the Revolutionary
man podcast.
Are you ready to own yourdestiny, to become more the man
you were destined to be?
Join the brotherhood that isthe Awakened man at
theawakendmannet and startforging a new destiny today.
Imagine waking up every morning feeling drained,
your productivity at an all-timelow and your relationships are
strained by your struggle withalcohol.
You've tried to cut back orquit altogether, but the cycle
of overindulgence continues,leaving you feeling powerless.
Now envision a life whereyou've had boundless energy,
heightened productivity andthriving relationships.
(00:21):
In a thriving relationships.
This transformation is possible, but requires confronting the
grip of alcohol has on your life, and it's taking deliberate
steps towards making that change.
And so in today's episode,we're going to explore the
journey from dependency toempowerment and covering the
practical steps to break free.
Told.
Before we get in today's episode, let's also come to grips about
(00:43):
something else, and thatinevitably there will come a
time in our lives when we willhit a wall, whether that's a
marriage that's not working, ora career in business that's
stagnated, or your personal lifeis completely flatlined.
So if you're dealing with anyof these, or a combination of
them, and are finally fed upwith where your life's at, I'm
going to encourage you to allowme to help you get clear about
(01:04):
what needs to get done and howto do that, so you can get back
to living the life you weremeant to live.
Just look in today's show notesand book a clarity call.
Let's get started today Withthat.
Let's get on with today'sepisode.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
The average man today is sleepwalking through life,
many never reaching their truepotential, let alone ever
crossing the finish line toliving a purposeful life.
Yet the hunger still exists,albeit buried amidst his
cluttered mind, misguidedbeliefs and values that no
longer serve him.
It's time to align yourself forgreatness.
(01:41):
It's time to become arevolutionary man.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Stay strong, my brother.
Welcome everyone to theRevolutionary man podcast.
I'm the founder of the Awakenedman Movement and your host,
alan DeMonso.
As you listen to today'sepisode, think about your own
relationships with alcohol ormaybe any other habits that you
have, and how might these beaffecting your energy, your
productivity and yourrelationships.
Consider what steps you cantake to regain control of your
(02:11):
life, and have a more fulfillingone at that, and consider the
societal norms around drinkingand productivity.
How can you challenge thesenorms and support a healthier or
productive lifestyle foryourself and those around you?
Our guest today is going toshare insights on how we can
increase our energy, power, upour productivity and build much
(02:33):
healthier relationships, andhe's going to guide us on this
path to becoming a revolutionaryman who lives with purpose and
fulfillment.
So allow me to introduce myguest.
Duncan Bashkaran Brown is thefounder of Sober Warrior Program
and is a renowned expert inhelping individuals overcome
alcohol dependency, and withover 20 years of personal
experience with overindulgence,duncan's transformed his life
(02:58):
and dedicated himself to guidingothers on the path of sobriety.
He trained with the world'smost successful stop smoking
service and holds certificationsfrom esteemed institutions Such
as Cornell University andChartered Management Institute
and Duncan's also the author ofReal Men Quit, a practical guide
to beating alcohol addictionand reclaiming one's life, and
(03:19):
it's through this work heempowers people to create their
energy, enhance productivity andimprove relationships and live
fulfilling lives without the useof alcohol.
Welcome to the show, duncan.
How are things, my friend?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Thank you very much for having me.
I'm looking forward for today.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
I really was inspired by your journey and as the
father of a son who struggledwith making healthy decisions
with drugs and alcohol.
This really is close to myheart, this subject, and so I'm
always keen on hearing fromexperts such as yourself of how
they defeated this demon,because it is quite the battle
(03:59):
for many people out there aroundthe world, especially men, and
so we, we always start ourconversations by talking a
little bit more about yourhero's quest, and so that each
of us will have these definingmoments in our lives that
changed the course of ourdestiny.
So tell us about that one ofthose moments, what you did
about it, and how's thatexperience shaped you into the
man you are today.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Yeah, I'm not so sure I'm a hero.
Certainly I don't know whethergoing out and slaying dragons is
exactly my story.
I think it's more a kind ofmaybe I don't know Gulliver's
Travels.
I went a few places, I met somepeople, I made some bad choices
, but in the end I managed tofind my way home and I came back
(04:43):
.
You know, a rich in the senseof experience and knowledge,
rich human being.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Absolutely, but it is those experiences in our lives
that really, really show us whatwe're truly made of, and so
tell us a little bit more aboutthat lowest point, then, for
your life, of what, what wasoccurring around that timeframe,
what was your mindset like andwhat were some steps that you
started to take in order to getyou out of that position?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Sure, you know, what makes a really good story is
that moment where you stare inthe mirror at 4 am and you
realize that it's all goinghorribly wrong.
I mean, that never happened tome.
It reached ahead over a periodof years really, I mean in terms
of alcohol.
Alcohol it got to a point mywife and I we were trying to
start a family.
(05:29):
We were doing all right on theadult front.
We, we had jobs.
I was always relativelysuccessful despite the drinking,
and we had jobs.
We, we had somewhere to live.
So we thought, why not, let'sstart a family, let's do the
ultimate adult thing?
And we were just like all ofthose kind of young parents.
As soon as my wife got pregnant,we just turned into idiots and
(05:50):
we were like happy all the time.
It was like, oh, it's amazing,and yeah, we were very naive and
it was all going incrediblywell until we we stepped into an
ultra scan room with thatparticular nurse who pointed out
that my wife was having amiscarriage, and then it all
just crumbled and it allcollapsed and obviously that was
(06:11):
incredibly hard on my wifephysically, mentally,
emotionally.
But what made it a lot worsewas I just wasn't there for her
and my reaction to stress wasalways just to open a bottle and
hope it'll go away, and that'sexactly the opposite of what she
needed, wasn't it?
And, like I say, I never stoodin front of the mirror and
(06:33):
phrased it in a really clear way, but looking back now I can see
that I spent six weeks, twomonths, really getting to grips
with what it was that I wantedout of life.
What was I here for?
What was the point of Duncan?
And now I can see it just camedown to this single question
(06:53):
what do you want?
Do you want to have anotherdrink or do you want to start a
family?
And the good news is I made theright decision and, almost nine
months to the day after Istopped drinking, our daughter
was born, which was amazing forabout 10 minutes, and then my
world had a whole different setof problems to it.
But they're good problems,aren't they?
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, absolutely this .
And having becoming a firsttime father and kicking a
drinking habit and decided, hey,I'm not, I'm going to make this
shift Lots of pressure.
I can remember as a youngcouple, having our children and,
on top of that, buying a newvehicle and getting into a house
we were house rich and cashpoor and all the pressures that
we put on ourselves.
(07:36):
And, as I don't know about you,but for me as a man, I really
felt like I just, I just didn't,couldn't hold it together, I
wasn't capable of doing this.
Yet I was moving us, trying tomove us forward at a pace,
thinking that this is whatneeded to be done, and we make
these decisions in moments ofunder pressure and when we look
(07:56):
back at it, it's alwayshindsight, it's always 2020.
It's interesting how differentthings happen in our lives.
It makes us.
We come up with these ideas onhow to move forward, and they
aren't always the greatest ones,right.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Oh, absolutely, and I think it's not like I stopped
drinking and, all of a sudden,life was roses and sitting
around discussing the poetry ofJohn Keats, I think.
If anything, I felt thatpressure even more.
I think a lot of men, we feellike we've got to provide,
haven't we?
We've got to go out and we'vegot to do it, and I think
there's probably a whole otherlayer of pressure put on men now
(08:33):
.
I think there's a lot moreexpectations about us being
great fathers and spending timewith our kids, which is
important, but there's alsoexpectations that we're great
cooks as well, so we've got tospend time in the kitchen and
all of those kind of things.
I very much felt the pressure ofthat, and particularly when my
daughter was young.
To an extent, I still do,because you've got to keep the
(08:56):
fridge full of food, haven't you?
But yeah, that was somethingthat was particularly difficult
in the first few years since I'dstopped drinking.
I was lucky that I was veryresolved and very certain that I
wasn't going to go back todrinking.
However, I was a little bitnaive and I thought to myself
I'm not drinking now, whichmeans I can pretty much eat
(09:18):
whatever I like, and that turnedout not to be quite correct and
I got to to a point so my wifegot quite ill when our daughter
was pretty young, and then thatwas like that just ramped up the
pressure even more and I got tothe point where I'd put my
daughter to bed and I wassitting on my own in the dark
eating triple chocolate chipcookies and like I really wasn't
(09:39):
enjoying them they just tastedawful, they were making me feel
sick, uh.
But I just felt this compulsionto keep eating and all of a
sudden, like it just struck meas, duncan, you are eating
exactly the same way you used todrink.
So all of that pressure neversent me back to the drinking,
but it did lead me down anotherpath, which ultimately I'm quite
(10:01):
grateful I went down that pathbecause it meant I had to stand
up and do something and I had tosort out my diet, and it's a
lot better.
These days.
I'm pretty much completelywhole food, plant-based, which
is like veganism but morehardcore yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
It's interesting that you talk about how that
transition for you and I've seenthat as well in my journeys
with with my mother-in-law Hervice was alcohol as well, and
when she got clean and she wasdoing all right, it just
transitioned.
We didn't find out until aftershe passed away that it
transitioned to gambling and shenever was really able to
(10:39):
overcome that.
And so it's interesting thatthese things happen.
But you were able to, in bothinstances, to figure out and
really ask yourself thatquestion, duncan what do I want
to do?
Do I want to have another drinkor have another bite to eat, or
do I want to do somethingdifferent?
Take care of my family?
And so let's get into talkingabout your book, real Men Quit,
(10:59):
and what the premise of the bookis about and what are things
that we can expect to see in it.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
What the premise of the book is about and what are
things we can expect to see init.
I did some work with this guyand he was in the Royal Marine
Commandos, which is a prettyelite bit of the British armed
forces.
It actually has the longestinfantry training course in the
world, so it's quite hardcore.
But that wasn't enough for him.
So he passed selection andjoined the Special Boat Service,
(11:27):
which is the sort of theBritish equivalent of the Navy
SEALs, and he was a disciplinedman, a lot of self-control, a
lot of determination, a lot ofwhat I think the Americans call
intestinal fortitude, and he wasa very.
Everything in his life wasabsolutely under control,
(11:47):
Everything was squared away,apart from the drinking.
He just couldn't seem to get ahandle on his drinking.
It just creeped up and up.
In the military there is a bitof a culture of drinking and
since he'd left the forces beingon deployment less and being
less active, it just creeped upand it was really starting to
affect his business.
(12:08):
And it occurred to me that ifsomebody like that, somebody
that disciplined and just withthat much self-control, if they
can get caught in the trap, thenany of us can.
And there's no shame, itdoesn't make you weak, because,
trust me, this guy was not weak.
It doesn't make you weak andthat's why I wanted to write
(12:35):
something specifically for men,because I think we do have, you
know, a different sort of viewof the problems, that a lot of
men drink for different reasons,that you know what we talked
about right at the start thatkind of pressure to provide, to
be strong to well, to not beweak.
That's part of the reason why alot of guys drink.
So I wanted to get to gripswith that and just say look, you
know, some of the toughestpeople on the planet struggle
(12:56):
with it, and some of the mostsuccessful people on the planet
have become the most successfulpeople on the planet after they
stopped doing it.
So you've got to realize it'snot a weakness in you, but
actually getting past it couldbe a huge strength.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Absolutely, it's one of those things that we need to
overcome, and so I always likethe idea in our men's work here
of talking about everyone beingon their own hero's journey or
their hero's quest.
And it's these moments in ourlives where we are faced with
this piece, this thing, that weneed to deal with.
And as we start to deal withthat, then the mentor needs to
(13:31):
come along, and then I reallysee that's what your book is
doing for men to show us thatthere is a path forward, and I
know in your book you talk aboutdifferent ways for us to do
that.
So let's touch a little bit onmindset and how our mindset
really can either reveal ahindrance to us or help us
forward.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah, no, I mean, I think I take a very cognitive
approach.
So obviously I do think mindsetis really where it's at, and
the thing that I always startwith people is beliefs.
You have a lot of beliefsaround alcohol.
Most men believe it makes themstrong, it helps them to
socializeize, it helps them todeal with stress, it's the way
(14:12):
they bond, it's friendship, it'sso many things and those
beliefs, they dictate how muchyou drink.
And that that's not my belief.
That's actually supported bythe research.
All of the research search showsthat what you expect to get
from alcohol not what you getfrom it, but what you expect to
get from it pretty much dictateshow much of it you're going to
(14:34):
drink.
So we start with your beliefs,and I think it's really
interesting because our beliefsdictate so many of our actions.
So, for example, I always usedto take the seeds out of chili
peppers.
I like I was religious about it, like every time I'd use
chilies in cooking, I wouldalways take the seeds out,
because I'd read somewhere thatthe seeds were the spicy bit.
(14:56):
They're not.
They're absolutely not.
It's all spicy, like everysingle last bit of the chili is
spicy.
Removing the seeds it's notgoing to help at all, but I did
it for ages and ages because Ibelieved that was the truth and
that's why we drink a lot of thetime, because we believe it's
the truth.
So I think the first thing to dois to identify those beliefs,
(15:17):
bring them out into the open andstart to question them.
Say, is it true, honestly, isit true that drinking alcohol
makes you tough andsophisticated and attractive to
the girls?
Or is that just because you'vewatched James Bond too much?
So we start off with?
Are they true?
And then we'd like to move intoother kind of ideas.
(15:38):
Basically around it Is itserving you, even if drinking
does have some marginaladvantage in terms of
socialization or networking?
Is it really helping you becomethe person that you want to be?
And what I find is that oncepeople really get to grips with
most of those questions, theyfind the rest of it fairly easy.
There is another bit aroundthought management that's very
(16:00):
well explained in the book andsomething that I've worked with
people, but it is getting togrips with those beliefs.
That's absolutely the firststep.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
That makes complete sense because we have these.
We'll create these falsebeliefs, these misconceptions of
what we think this is doing forus and let's just replace
drinking with any othersubstance or any other habit
We'll form these beliefs aroundwhat we think it's doing for us,
and maybe it doesn't make usmore powerful, but maybe we feel
(16:30):
that it does other things.
And I think that's for menbecause we struggle with
managing our emotions at timesthat we look for these different
ways to deal with it.
And so talk a little bit aboutsome of your work and helping
men who are going through thisprocess with you, and how are
they handling their emotions andhow are you seeing that
(16:52):
impacting their their pathforward?
Speaker 3 (16:55):
so the research that we've done suggests that
emotions are a massive part ofthe equation and and actually,
funnily enough, not just withmen, but particularly men.
Yes, we're not exactlyencouraged to talk about them in
the first place, are we?
So what I find with a lot ofmen is part of the reason they
(17:17):
drink is to suppress thoseemotions, to get rid of them.
They believe that they candrink the feelings away.
Of course, that's not true, butwhat?
One of the things that a lot ofpeople don't ever talk about in
the sober community, whichannoys me quite a lot, is that,
yes, you feel better when youstop drinking.
Trust me, it's like you willfeel a lot better.
(17:41):
Your mood will improve, yourphysical health will improve,
your gut health will improve,you will physically feel an
awful lot better, which makes alot of sense.
If you stop pouring poison downyour throat, of course, you're
going to feel a lot better, butthere is a period somewhere
between about three and 15months after people stop
drinking where they tend to havea bit of a dip and their life
(18:05):
satisfaction dips below thepoint that it was when they were
actually drinking, which oftenmanifests itself as some sort of
fairly big, not very nicecrisis and a lot of the time
that is to do with emotions andpeople don't tell you that, and
I wish they did more.
I wish they were more openabout it, because then you'd
(18:25):
expect it when it happens.
And actually in the timerunning up to that, you can
start to learn some of thethings that will really help you
get past that dip.
Just getting your life in amore kind of stable point of
view from a kind of job, house,money, transport, those kind of
areas that's quite important.
(18:46):
Getting your health and youraccess to healthcare under
control, that's really important.
But the other things thatreally make a difference to
people are trigger management,so that kind of managing the
thought process that I talkedabout earlier.
There's loads of that in thebook.
But also just being a bit moreemotionally literate, being a
bit better about talking abouthow you feel.
(19:07):
Most men think there are threeemotions, don't they?
Bad, sad and glad, and there'sa whole palette and actually
learning to be a bit moredescriptive and a bit more
comfortable talking about them.
It can make a huge difference.
Learning how to regulate them,how to stand in front of them,
realizing that actually they aregoing to pass.
(19:28):
Feeling a bit bad is notactually a death sentence.
It will pass if you feelunhappy, but you aren't going to
feel unhappy for the rest ofyour life.
It's nothing to be scared of.
So that kind of emotionalintelligence is huge bit.
And then building connectionsto other people I don't think
that comes as a surprise.
We are a very social species,aren't we?
(19:48):
And building those connectionsis I absolutely agree with that.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
I was I'm really I'm taken aback by that, by what you
had said there.
I hadn't recognized that nuancethat you just brought forward
about that time frame in between3 and 15 months.
When they're when we're,they'll typically have a lapse.
This doesn't mean it happensall the time, but but it happens
enough that it's statistical,and I completely agree with you,
having attended a few differentversions of AA and Malanon and
(20:16):
different things like that.
This was never discussed andthere wasn't any preparation for
that, at least not in the groupsetting, and so I'm happy to
hear that's something thatyou're addressing.
What are some other things thatthese hidden truths I'll call
them that aren't being spokenabout, that your, that your work
is trying to address?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
The one thing that I'd like to get people to
understand is that it's actuallya lot easier than you'd think.
The actual bit of stoppingdrinking.
That really is relativelystraightforward and a lot of
people they don't do it becausethey're afraid.
They literally don't think thatthey can live their life any
(20:57):
other way.
In fact, you know, if youreally dive into the literature,
a lot of people use dependencyrather than addiction and if you
think about it, that makes alot of sense because, certainly
for me, I believed that Idepended on alcohol to make my
life work.
I could not see a way ofgetting through life, handling
stress, socializing, coping withmy emotional life, my
(21:19):
relationships without alcohol.
That was the problem.
I believed that I depended onit.
So getting to grips with all ofthat makes moving away from it
so much easier.
And yes, there's a huge amountabout helping people to navigate
through that early sobrietyperiod.
And I get why a lot of the time, people are a bit reluctant to
(21:41):
talk about relapses or lapses orlearning new things, as they
can be.
It's because we don't want youto do it like, we don't want to
set you up for doing it, so wetend not to talk about it, but
it happens and it happens withamazing frequency.
And again, if you dive into theliterature, you'll find that a
good relapse prevention program,particularly something based
(22:05):
around mindfulness, you know,anything that helps you to
become more aware of youremotions and your thoughts, you
know that can massively increaseyour odds of remaining sober
and it will absolutelyoutperform the traditional 12
step approach.
And I think the other thingthat we tend to ignore is that
(22:25):
the methods that I use to stopsmoking and drinking and eating
junk food saved my life.
So I'm a bit passionate aboutthem.
Of course I am.
They literally I wouldn't behere today if it wasn't for them
.
You've got and a lot of peopleare like that, but you've got to
get past this evangelical kindof this is the only method that
(22:46):
works thing.
I see that all of the time.
It's, yes, it changed your lifeBrilliant, but that doesn't
mean it's going to changeeverybody's life.
It doesn't mean it is the rightthing for everybody and
everybody's got to find theirown path.
And you've got the people thatI've met that have been most
successful.
Whatever they used to start offtheir journey into sobriety,
(23:07):
whether that was cognitiverealignment or whether that was
a group program or therapy.
They haven't just stayed there.
That was the starting point andthey've moved on and they found
a lot of other things that havereally helped and I think
that's the ultimate truth of youcould say recovery, you could
say life itself.
You've got to find your ownpath.
(23:29):
You've got to find what worksfor you and you've got to learn
not to get bent out of shapebecause the gurus all tell you
to meditate and you hatemeditating.
Okay, meditating might not bethe right thing for you, don't
sweat it.
Realize what meditation isuseful for and find something
else that will fulfill that foryou and add that into your life.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I completely agree with that.
I think there's lots ofdifferent ways to lots of
different paths to your to reachyour ultimate goal, and one of
the things that in our lives wealways, we always talk about my
wife and I talk about, when youcome across a new piece of
information is and then you getexcited about oh wow, this is a,
this is such great information.
(24:12):
But soon you realize yourecognize that there are some
flaws in it and there's someholes.
I should say, and it's okay,you just take what works for us
and it works for you and thenleave the rest.
There's nothing.
Nobody says it has to be all ornothing, and I think sometimes
we have that mindset said, thisis the four-step path or the
nine-step path or whatever it is, and maybe three of the out of
(24:36):
the five of the steps are whatworks for you.
But the point is that you'removing forward and that's what I
liked about your description.
There's you.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Some of these things are just starting places and
it's about the evolution ofabout who you are, because as
you evolve, you'll needdifferent resources, you'll need
different things yeah, yeah,even the people that I know
who've really worked the 12steps that when you sit down and
like really dig into it withthem, they always favor one step
above all of the other ones,and often they they do stuff
(25:06):
that's really not on the menu.
In fact, I interviewed somebodythe other day who stopped
drinking using AA, which is likea very kind of that's that way
of doing it.
It's quite solid and okay, andthen she got really into
crystals and energy healing andthat is completely somewhere
else, but it works for her.
(25:26):
I don't think it's going towork for me.
I'm not sure how many of yourlisteners it's going to work for
, but if it works for you, do it, dude, and why not try it?
Like the man says, there aremore things in heaven and earth
than I dreamt of in yourphilosophy that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
That's, that's absolutely for sure.
So we've been spending a bit oftime here in our conversation
talking about the individual andhelping them.
But what about the situationwhere maybe it's work
environment right, and today'swork environment where if
someone discloses to you thatthey have they're having
struggles with alcohol orwhatever their vice is?
(26:01):
What can businesses do to helpsupport that individual, to help
them get healthy on theirjourney?
See?
Speaker 3 (26:09):
I think a lot of businesses still see drinking
too much as a disciplinary issue, something to be packed off to
HR, and I think that is a realshame because a lot of the
really good businesses havealready done most of the work.
They just haven't quite joinedit up a lot.
So all really good businessesthese days will have quite a
(26:32):
well-developed well-beingprogram.
They realize that happy,healthy employees are good for
the bottom line.
I'd love to think they weredoing it entirely altruistically
, but of course not.
It's just if your employees arehappy and healthy, they will be
far more productive.
It's just like basic stuff.
So well-being is something thatbusinesses talk about a lot and
(26:54):
they're getting more and morecomfortable with Mental health,
again something that a lot ofcompanies are getting more and
more comfortable with.
They've done the maths.
You know the chances of themhaving employees that have
mental health issues.
It's just astronomical, it'slike it's very common.
So they've got to do somethingto help their employees so they
can be more productive.
And again, you know it helpsthe bottom line.
(27:17):
They've done the maths on thatone.
They just haven't quite workedout that the number one thing
that affects people's wellbeingis the amount that they drink
and one of the most commonmental health problems in the
world is drinking too much.
And if you can just join thosetwo concepts up and realize that
(27:40):
alcohol is such a keydeterminant of people's
well-being and that it's also ithas a knock-on effect both ways
.
So mental health issues cancause people to drink more and
drinking more can cause mentalhealth issues Just joining those
two things up I think that issuch a huge start.
And then there are plenty ofthings that businesses can do to
(28:05):
help.
We're massively keen on healthscreening, so that's once a year
.
You should be asked 10 to 12questions by somebody with a
reasonable amount of trainingwho can just assess where your
drinking is, at what level it isat.
If you are at the nice low risklevel, then brilliant, great,
(28:26):
crack on with that.
If you have creeped up into amore of a moderate risk level,
then they can give you someadvice 10 minutes maybe, not
even that, maybe just a PDF anda couple of words of
encouragement to help you getback down to that lower risk
drinking area.
And, of course, if you'vecreeped over into the kind of
moderate to severe area, thenthere are different approaches.
(28:48):
I would always take a coachingapproach with that, help people
to understand the effect thatit's having on their life, get
to grips with some of thosebeliefs, do a bit of the thought
management piece, help them putin place a plan that is going
to work for them, is going tosuit them, because I don't just
go around and tell everybodythey should be sober.
Definitely everybody shouldn'tbe like me.
That's really not a good idea.
(29:11):
Some people do need to stopdrinking and should never drink
again, but that's not true foreverybody.
It's developing that plan thatworks for that individual.
And then, of course, if youemploy any amount of people, you
will identify some of them whoare drinking far too much and
really do need some seriousprofessional help.
So that kind of screeningprocess it's so quick, so easy
(29:34):
and you know it should behappening annually.
And I think if you actually getto grip, if you get to talk to
most people in the medicalbusiness, they'd love to run
that annually with theirpatients.
It's just they don't have thetime or the resources to do it
and I think businesses they do.
They frankly have theopportunity to do that and again
(29:55):
, it would make a hugedifference to productivity, to
relationships, to retention.
It would differentiate themfrom other employers, which
helps them to attract the toptalent.
And this is, at the end of theday, the World Health
Organization who developed thesesort of brief interventions,
(30:15):
these brief screening tools, andthey sat down with a panel of
experts and decided on a fewgroups that were high risk and
should be screened annually, andbusiness executives was one of
them.
And if you think about it, itmakes a lot of sense.
Business executives have a lotof stress.
In our society, we believe thatstress is, you know, something
(30:37):
that alcohol can help with.
So, of course, you're going tofind a lot of drinking among
businesses.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Yeah, I completely, completely agree that between
business and the well-beingopportunity of us is doing that
check-in gives us, gives thebusiness and the employee that
chance to connect on a differentlevel.
That chance to connect on adifferent level other than just
being receiving a paycheck andgetting your annual performance
review and having something thatthat ties you a little deeper
and closer to that business.
(31:03):
And especially for this youngergeneration of the millennials
are looking for that other edge,that other piece.
What are the things that myemployer can give me?
And no, I know you wrote the,you've had the book with that we
just talked about earlier.
But you also have the soberwarrior program.
Talk a little bit about yourprogram, how and how you're
using that to help people.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
So we work with two different types of people.
One of them are the people thatkind of they got to a point
where they really do need to dosomething about their drinking.
In general they tend to beprofessionals.
They tend to be quitesuccessful people.
They tend to be professionals.
They tend to be quitesuccessful people.
They tend to be holding down ajob.
But over the years the drinkinghas creeped up and it's now
(31:44):
getting to a point where they'redrinking either daily or very
heavily on the weekends and it'sstarting to have an effect and
they want to do something aboutit.
So those are the kind of thepeople that want to make a big
change around alcohol.
But we also do a lot of workwith people who have already
stopped drinking, and it isalmost to the point that if you
(32:04):
tell me what method you use tostop drinking, I will tell you
what you're going to be bad at,because all methods have
strengths and all methods haveweaknesses, and we like to think
we're reasonably good atplugging the gaps and filling in
the holes and helping you tobuild that more holistic kind of
sobriety, the kind of sobrietythat sticks.
(32:27):
And what a lot of people thatwe work with they're in this
phase of trying to stabilize andwe help them to create that
stability and then from thatstability they help to really
they propel, they pop, andthat's where you get the success
.
And I can, you know, I can boreyou for days about examples of
(32:47):
people who've stopped drinking,got that stability in their life
and then just gone on and donesome amazing things in business,
in sport, in adventure, youknow, in creativity almost any
field you can.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yes, I would agree with you.
I think there are people.
We look at these differentprograms and there's lots of
different ways to do things thatwe've been talking about
through this conversation today,and there are those pitfalls,
and so helping them become awareof that and then developing a
game plan that allows them tosee a path forward he really is
the key to the success of thisprogram, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Yeah, and I mean I'm very keen on education theory
because I'm quite boring, and ifyou look at the way people
learn, everybody learns in adifferent way.
Everybody approaches problemsin a different way.
Everybody approaches problemsin a different way.
And I think that's what wereally try to do is we try to
sit down, meet you where you'reat, but also get a bit of an
(33:45):
understanding about how youtackle problems, because I could
tell you a bunch of reallygreat books that you could read
that would blow your mind.
But if you're that kind ofperson that wants to just get
stuck in and learns by doing,then that is absolutely the
worst advice you could ever get,isn't it?
You've just, and it's aboutforming a plan that that works
(34:09):
for you and meets you whereyou're at and embraces your uh,
your the way you approach life,because so many people I know
they went to school and thosekind of people, those very
dynamic people who just can'tsit still and just want to learn
by doing.
What did they have to do atschool?
They had to sit still and readbooks and look at the blackboard
(34:32):
and they were told for yearsand years that it was a
disadvantage, that it was aweakness, that there was
something wrong with them.
Wrong with them and it's nodude.
That's just how you roll and we.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
I love it when you can turn that into people
absolutely, and what I, what I'mhearing you saying, is that
you're what your program isdoing is matching the actual
program with the personality, sothat because that's what's
going to stick, and not tryingto force a square peg into a
round hole.
So I think that's, that's kudosto you for recognizing that
through your journey and throughthe work that you've been doing
(35:04):
.
But in considering your journey, I'm sure you've had a mentor
or two that has had some impacton your life, and so next
question for you is what's thebest piece of advice you've been
given and how is it stillserving you today?
Speaker 3 (35:16):
So the two pieces of advice that I really?
The first one is the only pieceof advice about parenting that
makes any sense, and that isthat your kids will ignore
everything you say and copyeverything that you do.
So for me, that is about notjust telling my daughter how to
(35:37):
behave, but actually trying tomodel the behavior that I want
to see her.
So I am quite concerned aboutthe digital environment that she
is shortly to be plunged into,and I think the best thing I can
do is actually develop a fairlyhealthy relationship with my
own tech usage and then modelthat to her.
(35:59):
So that's number one.
But I mean my good friend andmentor, r Michael Anderson.
He doesn't drink, partly why Ilike him, partly because he's
awesome.
He taught me that you've got tobe able to take the praise, and
I think this is something thatmost people are particularly bad
(36:20):
at.
I think men are awful at it ingeneral.
We just say, oh, it was nothing, I just did what anybody would
have done.
It's absolutely nothing, it's asmall thing, and you know what?
I think we need to just getbetter at going.
Look, I appreciate that youthink I did something that
really helped you out and I'mgoing to take a moment to stand
(36:41):
in that power and recognize yourthanks and that I did something
good and I think there's thiskind of like self-awareness
piece so often it gets hijackedby being aware of what you're
not very good at and actuallydeveloping that awareness for
when you have done somethinggood.
That has been really big for meand it has really helped me to
(37:07):
live a happier, chilled out,more fulfilled life and I now
love it when my clients say nicethings and I always I bizarrely
get into this kind of.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
I really want to thank you for thanking me that's
a great piece of advice, though, because it is something that
we have to learn.
Lots of people not just men,but in our work here with men is
that learning to be able toaccept praise and when we talked
, I changed that around a littlebit.
A couple of months ago, we dida month on talking about how to
accept and receive love.
Is that something that we don'tdo as men very well, and so I
(37:44):
like this, that you've addedpraise to it, and so love, that
information that you were ableto garner from your mentor.
And, as we close out today'sconversation, maybe there was,
maybe we've talked about it, ormaybe there's something we
didn't get a chance to talkabout.
What would be the one piece ofadvice you'd give our listeners?
Speaker 3 (38:00):
Oh, that's easy.
You are enough, something Iwould love everybody to really
understand and tattoo acrosstheir heart.
You are enough.
You have everything inside youthat you need to live a happy,
healthy, fulfilling, meaningful,purposeful, enjoyable life.
You don't need alcohol, youdon't need cigarettes, you don't
(38:22):
need junk foods, you don't needgambling.
You don't need Facebook.
You don't need so much of it,because you are enough.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Love that.
That is perfect.
Great way to wrap up today'sconversation today with us.
Duncan, I just want to saythank you so much for spending
time with us today and showingus a way through any type of
grip that we may that may betaking over our lives, and
today's been focusing on alcohol.
If men are interested ingetting a hold of you and
participating in your work,what's the best way for them to
(38:49):
do that?
Speaker 3 (38:50):
So if you want to grab a copy of Real Men Quit,
just type Real Men and Quit intoAmazon and they'll drone it
over in the next 30 minutes orsomething.
But if you wanted to connect oranything, the best way to do
that is to go to my website.
Now, if you can spell Baskerand Brown, it's really easy.
But nobody can spell it.
In fact, most people can't evenpronounce it.
(39:11):
So this is the deal.
If you put getoveruk that'sgetoveruk into your search
engine of choice, it will takeyou to a bit of my website and
there you can download a copy ofmy first book, get Over
Indulgence.
It's the PDF, the Kindle or, ifyou can stand listening to me
for three hours and 45 minutes,you can listen to the audio book
(39:31):
as well.
So that's like my gift to yourlisteners.
It might give them a little bitof a nudge in the right
direction and expand a littlebit on my story, but it also, as
I say, is a piece of my website.
You can, from there find outabout the programs, find us on
social media, connect, say hi.
Always happy to talk about that.
(39:53):
There's a ton of stuff on ourwebsite.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Absolutely.
I want to make sure thatinformation is in today's show
notes, as well as whereveryou're hiding on social media.
We're gonna we're gonna stalkyou and find you and make sure
that we get people to come toyou.
And because you're doing someamazing work here, duncan, once
again, thank you so much forbeing on the show today it's my
absolute pleasure and thank youfor all of the work that you're
doing it.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
It's so important, I think, that, as men, we do
organize and start talking aboutthe problems that we have
getting them on the agenda.
So I hope all the listeners cango and give you a five-star
review on all of their favoritepodcast platforms to help.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
you.
Really appreciate it, thank youso much.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Thank you for listening to the Revolutionary
man podcast.
Are you ready to own yourdestiny, to become more the man
you were destined to be?
Join the brotherhood that isthe Awakened man at
theawakendmannet and startforging a new destiny today.
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Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Betrayal: Season 4
Karoline Borega married a man of honor – a respected Colorado Springs Police officer. She knew there would be sacrifices to accommodate her husband’s career. But she had no idea that he was using his badge to fool everyone. This season, we expose a man who swore two sacred oaths—one to his badge, one to his bride—and broke them both. We follow Karoline as she questions everything she thought she knew about her partner of over 20 years. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-3 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.