June 8, 2025 • 39 mins
Let me know your thoughts on the show and what topic you would like me to discuss next.
In this episode of the Revolutionary Man podcast, host Alain Dumonceaux explores the concept of love as a learned skill with Dr. Mark Hicks, an author, speaker, and relationship specialist. They delve into five crucial components of love: grief, emotion, practicality, acceptance, and passion, and discuss practical tools for building healthier relationships.
Dr. Hicks also shares insights from his book, 'Learning Love,' and emphasizes that love is not just a feeling but a skill that can be mastered. Essential for anyone looking to move from merely surviving relationships to truly thriving in them.
Key moments in this episode:
- 00:26 The Concept of Love as a Learned Skill
- 04:19 Dr. Mark Hicks' Personal Journey
- 08:51 The Five Components of Love
- 19:41 Overcoming Toxic Relationships
- 21:01 A Story of Long-Term Bitterness
- 22:16 Building Trust in Relationships
- 25:06 Applying Love in the Workplace
- 28:34 Forgiveness vs. Reconciliation
- 34:31 Best Advice Ever Received
- 36:16 Love is a Learned Skillset
How to Reach Mark:
Website: https://www.markahicks.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61560463719338
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-mark-a-hicks-359778169/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@markahicksvideo
Book: Learning Love: Building a Life that Matters and Healthy Relationships
Thanks for listening to the Revolutionary Man Podcast. For more information about our programs, please use the links below to learn more about us. It could be the step that changes your life.
Want to be a guest on The Revolutionary Man Podcast? Send Alain Dumonceaux a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/revolutionarymanpodcast
👉To join our movement:
⛰The Integrity Challenge
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So let's just imagine navigating our relationships
without a roadmap.
You know, we're unsure of howto build trust, to navigate
forgiveness or even the deepemotional connections, and for
many of us, this concept of lovefeels more like a mystery than
it is a skill that we can master.
And whether it's marriage orfamily or friendships, or even
at work, relationships are thethings that shape our lives, and
(00:23):
yet so often we struggle tomake them thrive.
But what if love wasn't just afeeling but a learned skill, one
that anyone can practice andcan master?
And so in today's episode,we're going to explore five
components of love and coverpractical tools for building
healthy relationships.
We're going to learn how tomove from surviving
relationships to creating onethat's truly thrive.
(00:46):
And before we get into today'stopic, let's just take a moment
and talk about something elsethat could change your life as
well, and we all know how hardit is for us to stay true to
ourselves in a world that isconstantly pulling us in
different directions.
So the pressures for men here toprovide and perform and
persevere can lead us to feelingdisconnected, like we're
drifting further from the manthat we want to be.
(01:07):
And so if you've ever feltstruck or frustrated and are
unsure of how to bridge the gapbetween life that you have and
the life that you want, then letme introduce you to Living With
Integrity.
This is more than just aprogram.
It's a roadmap oftransformation.
You're going to learn how toalign your actions with your
values, rebuild meaningfulconnections and create a legacy
that truly matters.
(01:28):
So, if you're ready to takecontrol of your life with
purpose, become the man yourfamily, community and future
needs you to be.
I'm going to challenge you toget started today.
Go to our membership site,membersthewakenmannet and begin
your journey today by taking ourintegrity challenge, Because
the only thing standing betweenyou and your life you're capable
of is the decision to take thatfirst step.
(01:50):
And with that, let's go on withtoday's episode.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
The average man today is sleepwalking through life,
many never reaching their truepotential, let alone ever
crossing the finish line toliving a purposeful life.
Yet the hunger still exists,albeit buried amidst his
cluttered mind, misguidedbeliefs and values that no
longer serve him.
It's time to rely on yourselffor greatness.
(02:17):
It's time to become arevolutionary man.
Stay strong, my brother.
Welcome everyone to theRevolutionary man Podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
strong, my brother, welcome everyone to the
Revolutionary man podcast.
I'm the founder of the Awakenedman Movement and your host,
alan DeMonso.
Before we get started, let meask you a couple of questions.
How might your life change ifyou approach love and
relationships as skills to belearned rather than practiced
and relying on feelings justalone?
(02:44):
And what role does trust,forgiveness and self-awareness
play in creating fulfillingrelationships that you want and
you deserve?
Building healthy relationshipsis not just about luck or
circumstance.
It's about understanding,effort and learning, and today
we're going to uncover how lovecan be taught, practiced and
(03:04):
even mastered.
Yes, men, we're going touncover how love can be taught,
practiced and even mastered.
Yes, man, we're going to learnto master this thing,
transforming every area of ourlives.
And so to do that, I'm going tointroduce.
Allow me to introduce my guesttoday.
Dr Mark Hicks is an author, aghostwriter, speaker, counselor
and relationship specialist.
His passion lies in unravelingthe mysteries of love and
relationships, digging deep intowhat makes them tick, and Mark
(03:26):
firmly believes that the healthyrelationships are the
cornerstone of fulfilling lifeand career, and he loves sharing
his insights.
That changes lives, and that'swhy Mark has poured his heart
and soul into his book LearningLove, building a Life that
Matters, and HealthyRelationships that Last.
And in learning love, heteaches the five components of
love that anyone can learn frompractice to build healthy, happy
(03:49):
, thriving relationships,regardless of their relationship
experiences so far.
That's a really big thing forme, I think.
And so in a world that's waytoo often there's grip by
loneliness, dysfunction andtrauma, especially as we get
older gentlemen, mark offershope and guidance for us to help
find deeper connections.
Welcome to the show, mark.
I'm looking so much forward tothis conversation.
(04:10):
How are things?
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Great.
Looking forward to speakingwith you today.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, it's been a bit to try to get us here
coordinated and get onto thisshow, and I'm really glad that
we're here today because this issuch a deep topic for us to
discuss.
But before we truly dive intothe topic, I'd like to have to
talk a little bit more aboutyour story, and so here on the
Revolutionary man podcast, weall know that we're all on our
own heroes quest or our ownheroes journey, so tell us about
(04:37):
that moment in your life, thatdeath and rebirth moment, and
how that experience shaped youinto the man you are today and
the work that you're doing.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
It really started when I was a young man.
I didn't always know what Iknow now.
My book is based on my careeras a counselor.
I also come from a spiritualbackground and so from both
spirituality and from psychologyI write my book about love and
relationships.
I write my book about love andrelationships, but it also has a
(05:06):
beginning in my own personalstory, because when I was young
I ended up in a toxic firstmarriage.
It ended in divorce.
I still have the emotional scarsfor that one and even though I
had been raised in a healthy,happy family, I had parents that
stayed married until my fatherpassed away a few years ago.
They had a great life together.
(05:28):
I was treated very well as achild.
I had what everyone hopes tohave as a childhood and yet as I
got into my adult years I stilldidn't know what it took to be
safe and healthy and happywithin relationships and ended
up in this toxic first marriageand from that I began to ask a
(05:49):
lot of questions Didn't fullyrealize it at the time, but it
stirred in my soul of is loveeven possible?
Is it just something thathappens to a lucky few people
that happen to stumble into it?
Is it something that can reallybe built and learned and
developed?
How would we go about that, ifthat's even possible?
(06:09):
And from those questions andfrom my background in psychology
and counseling, from mybackground in spirituality, I
came to this place ofunderstanding that, yes, it is a
learned skill set.
We can actually learn it, andnot only can we, but we need to,
because most people do learnlove and relationships from
(06:30):
their family, and that's usuallya terrible source In the best
case scenario, as mine was.
Things work a certain way inyour family and it works for
your family, but you get outinto the world and you don't
often know how things reallywork.
They just worked in your familyand it works for your family,
but you get out to the world andyou don't often know how things
really work.
They just worked in your familyand every family has its own
brand of weird and quirky andodd, and that's okay.
(06:53):
But it doesn't necessarily workin all our relationships and
that's best case scenario.
From there, you havedysfunctional families, you have
toxic, you have even abusivefamilies, and how are people
like that, growing up in thosekinds of environments, supposed
to learn what love is and how tolive it?
And so it can't just be thisrandom thing that we learned
(07:15):
somewhat from our family.
It needs to be a learned skillset, and it is, and that's what
I teach in my book.
I teach the five components oflove.
Anybody can learn and practicethese five components to build
the healthy, happy relationshipsthey want in every area to
thrive at home.
And this is not just aboutmarriage although it is about
(07:35):
marriage and romanticrelationships but it's also
about family, friendships, workrelationships, loving what you
do for a living, partnering withyour co-workers to accomplish
that.
Every area of life is affectedby love and relationships that
is so true, mark.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
That's so true, and what a great way to start our
conversation today, because itwould.
It wouldn't have surprised meif you would have told the story
of a dysfunctional family thatyou learned, that you were
learning your love skills fromand trying to build a
relationship.
But that's not the case.
And so for many of us, we'vereally, I think, we've shattered
that first myth of what we maythink that hey, if I've come
(08:12):
from a family, the situationthat it wasn't perfect, maybe it
was single parent, maybe noteven, but it was just a
dysfunctional family, then it'stypical.
That's the reason why myrelationships tend to suffer as
an adult.
But that's not the case.
You still had good models, rolemodels in front of you, and I
love the point that you make.
Because it worked with yourfamily doesn't necessarily mean
(08:33):
that it works in otherrelationships, and that's a
great piece of wisdom.
So thank you for bringing thatforward and having us really
understand that we do.
It is a learned skill.
We have to learn that partner,that relationship, whether it's
in marriage or family or wivesor another relationship.
They have their own sets ofexperience.
And so, after I had beenmarried for as well the first
(08:55):
time and married my high schoolsweetheart and that didn't last
until we got into our both intoour early 30s, and that fell
apart, and I just think aboutthe lessons I learned there.
So this was your, really yourcatapult sounds that got you to
start writing the book.
And so let's talk a little bitmore about your book, learning
Love and these five components.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yeah, I'd be happy to go through those the five
components.
The first one is grief, andthat one surprises people.
Usually, when we think aboutlove, we think about bubblegum
and butterflies, everythingsweet and beautiful, and we get
to that there is an element ofthat.
Obviously we want love to be abeautiful thing, but no one gets
through life without scars, aswe've mentioned, even if you
(09:39):
come from a healthy family, as Idid.
If you come from a healthyfamily, you don't really
understand some of the downsidesof life the manipulation, the
toxicity.
You're not prepared for thosethings and you get into that in
life and you just don't know howto deal with it.
If you came out of that, thenmaybe you don't have a model to
go by from your childhood.
(10:01):
But whatever your story is, youdon't get through life without
scars.
Life is always going to bringits share of hardships.
That is not being pessimistic.
There's some great things aboutlife, but everyone's going to
go through hardships and whenyou do, you need your comeback
story.
What people tend to do is whenwe go through those hard times,
(10:23):
we start putting up walls, weput up emotional barriers, we
keep people at arm's length, weprotect ourselves, thinking we
don't want to get hurt again,and there's a certain logic to
that.
Obviously, the problem is we'rebuilding our own emotional
prison.
We are barricading ourselvesaway from the people that could
be loving us and from therelationships that could be
(10:43):
thriving.
There's so many people thathave a story of the time they
were hurt in life, the timesomeone hurt them and in their
soul they said I will never letsomeone hurt me like this again.
And that becomes a mantra forlife, even without thinking
about it again, even withoutknowing it, and we keep people
pushed away.
And then we wonder what's wrongwith my relationships?
(11:06):
I have good people in my life.
I'm a good person.
We're all trying here, but it'snot quite working.
Part of that is because westill have that hurt we've never
dealt with.
If you know how to grieve, youknow how to keep your life, your
heart, your mind open.
You have that comeback story soyou can stay connected, and
that is a foundation for gettingthrough the tough times of life
(11:28):
and staying in thoserelationships.
Now, when you can do that, youcan move to the second component
of love, and that's emotion.
That is the bubblegum andbutterflies.
That's what we all love.
We love it whenever we havethat emotional connection, when
we really feel like we areconnected with people, when
things at home really feel good,when we're at work and we're
(11:49):
hitting on all cylinders andwe're getting things done
productively and we're enjoyingthe people we're working with.
At the same time, when life isreally working, it just feels
good and we have thoseconnections.
That's what we want, that'swhat we're going for, and for
some people those emotionalconnections become easy.
For some people they can bedifficult, they can be a
(12:09):
struggle, especially guys thatare introverted, people that
have been hurt and haven'tlearned how to grieve yet and
are starting that process.
It's a bit more difficult.
And to those folks I say it's apractice.
You don't have to be perfect atit.
Just do it a little at a time.
Learn to say things like I loveyou and if that's just too much
(12:30):
because maybe love was a loadedword in a family you grew up
with, maybe it was amanipulative word where you grew
up and say things like Iappreciate you, say thank you
when somebody does somethingnice to you.
Just start where you are.
It's fine.
You'll get better at it.
Every other practice when youshow a little bit of emotion,
you show a little appreciation,you show a little love for
someone, that can grow, thatpractice can grow and you grow
(12:53):
into those emotionalrelationships.
The third component is abalancing component and that's
practicality.
Emotion brings us together.
Practicality keeps us together.
That's how we live welltogether.
We make good decisions.
We make the decisions and putinto place the practices we need
(13:15):
in our relationships to makethem work.
In a family, in a marriage or apartnership, that would be
things like making goodfinancial decisions, because
money can tear a relationshipapart if you don't make good
financial decisions.
Communication Communication isa learned skill set.
You can learn how tocommunicate, learn how to do
that.
Things like mental health Ifyou're dealing with depression
(13:39):
and anxiety, that's going totake a toll on you.
It's going to take a toll onyour relationships and those are
treatable conditions.
That's why it's a practicalmatter, because there are
treatments for these things toget better.
There's a long list of ways wedo decisions.
We make ways that we livetogether in a practical way, so
that we are not only connectingemotionally but we're living
(14:01):
together.
You might've heard someone sayI love them but I just can't
live with them.
That's somebody who hasconnected emotionally.
They got the second componentof love down really well.
They failed on the thirdcomponent of love Practicality.
That keeps us together, livingtogether.
Well, now the fourth componentis acceptance, and that's
(14:24):
twofold.
One is accepting others,because no one's going to be
perfect.
Now there's limits to that,because we never accept abuse.
We were never put on thisplanet to be abused.
No one should accept abuse.
So there are limits, but withinthose limits we have to accept.
Others are not, they're notgoing to be perfect.
We have to come back from thosehurts.
(14:44):
That's why we have to learn howto grieve, because sometimes
things aren't going to beperfect.
But more importantly, it'sabout accepting ourselves.
Brene Brown has done some greatwork on this.
Other people have as well Tounderstand.
Scientifically, psychologically,you cannot love other people
more than you love yourself.
(15:04):
It's impossible.
That's the limit, because loveis not a commodity like money.
If you need more money, you canget a second job or take on a
loan or borrow money from afriend or some other thing to
get money.
Love is organic.
It has to be grown.
You cannot give it away unlessyou grow it within you.
(15:25):
You have to begin loving andaccepting yourself, and this is
one of the areas people reallystruggle in love is they may
love their partner very much,but they don't love themselves.
And then they wonder why isthis not working?
It's because you can't loveyour partner unless you love
yourself.
You may have feelings for them,but you can't really love them.
You have to begin lovingyourself.
(15:46):
And finally, there's passion.
The fifth component of love ispassion, and this is a passion
for life.
This is enjoying life togetheras a couple, enjoying your job,
enjoying your friends, learningto have fun.
Fun is not an option, it is arequirement for healthy,
(16:09):
thriving relationships.
And sometimes we get into thegrind.
We've come through the grief oflife, we've connected
emotionally, we're doing all thepractical stuff, we're checking
it off the list to make sure welive together well, doing
everything right, and we're evenloving ourselves as we love our
partner.
But then something's missing.
We've forgotten to have apassion for life.
Why are we doing all this?
Why are we going through allthese other steps?
(16:29):
It's in order to truly enjoyour life together with our
friends, with our coworkers,love what we do and love our
partner, our wife, in order toreally thrive in life.
Now, I know that's very quickgoing through those, but if you
practice those five things, yougrieve the tough times of life,
you connect emotionally, youlive well together in a
(16:50):
practical way, you love yourselffirst so that you have the
capacity to love other peopleand you remember to have fun and
have a passion for life.
You can build healthyrelationships in every area of
your life.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Excuse me, that is so powerful.
Mark, and I was listening toyou go through the five
components and I have to say,for a great part of even this,
the second, my second marriage,and we've been together just
over 20 years.
We celebrated our 20thanniversary here this past
October.
But I was that guy who waswounded from my first and I
hadn't opened up and it didcause problems in our
(17:26):
relationship.
And so when you were sayingthat I was going, man, like
absolutely the emotionaldisconnection was there because
I was still protecting myself.
I can remember, as bad as thisis going to sound, saying to my
wife, Kimmy, that I can nevergive you a hundred percent of
myself.
I have to protect, I have tokeep a little bit.
I sit there and say andlistening to you talk about this
(17:48):
today and go, man, that's notthe way to be.
It's to just to give all of it,not to lose myself, but to be
open all of it.
And so when you were talkedabout that and then you talked,
I really liked how you made thedistinction emotions, what
brings us together and it's thepracticality that keeps it
together, and just being able todo things so that we can have
(18:10):
fun and we can live and dothings.
Because why are we doing allthis work?
And I think for guys, we tendto get wrapped up into, as long
as I can, put a roof over myhead and food on the table and
taking care of things around thehouse.
Maybe we forget that we need tohave fun and plan that vacation
or plan that weekend to go dosomething, but to be involved
(18:31):
and engaged in our life, and soI think that's what you're
really asking us to do is reallylean into our relationships,
and I so appreciate that.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
And what you've done right there is.
Exactly what I hope people willdo with my book is learn those
five components, and a lot oftimes we're doing two or three
of them just fine, especially ifwe came from a healthy family
but then we'll think whatexactly is missing.
This is a way to conceptualizewhat love actually is, to break
it down to its five components.
(19:00):
It's not a million movingpieces, it's not a mystery.
It is all boiled down to thesefive components that we can look
at and say this one I've got,I'm doing this one.
Maybe it's by accident, maybeit's because I was raised in a
family that taught me this part,maybe somehow I just learned it
, but this was the one I'mmissing.
Or these two are the ones weneed to work on, and it gives us
(19:21):
a way to conceptualize, notjust wondering how to fix things
, but knowing what exactly weneed to work on.
And, of course, in my book Italk about some how-tos and some
ways to address each one ofthose components if you're
struggling with it.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Absolutely, and that's a perfect reason why I
need to get out there and getthat book and really start to
implement some of this stuff,because I would totally agree
with you.
We talked a little bit nowcoming out of relationships that
are from our parents and ourfamilies, that maybe we're okay.
But what about the person who'scome from a dysfunctional or
maybe an abusive background?
How do they begin to healthemselves?
(19:58):
Is it going right to step fourand acceptance, or is it
something more than that?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
I think if you've come through a very difficult
time, you've got to start withthat grief.
That's your comeback story.
That is your way back to aplace where you can really build
those healthy relationships.
And if you've come through atoxic relationship, you've come
through an abusive relationship.
Listen, get help for that.
I know sometimes there's astigma with counseling and, with
(20:25):
all due respect, that's justwrong.
It is just wrong.
We go to a doctor if we have aphysical injury.
We go to a dentist for ourteeth.
We go to a mechanic.
If our car is not running well,we'll call a plumber.
We'll call a lawyer.
I can list dozens ofprofessionals that we work with
all the time to meet our needsand to make our life better.
(20:49):
Why would we not get help forour mental and emotional
struggles and for ourrelationships, when that's
what's going to make us happy,that's what's going to build our
life, that's what's going tofulfill our life, is the
relationships we have at homeand at work.
And if we're going through agrief process, get help for that
(21:11):
.
If you've come through abuse,get help for that.
There are counselors, coaches,therapists of all kinds.
Find someone who can help youwith that.
Don't buy into this ridiculousstigma.
Don't just try to pick yourselfup by your bootstraps.
I worked with a lady one timeand she was in her 70s.
(21:31):
She came into a counselingprogram where I worked horribly
depressed, a lot of issues goingon.
Long story short.
We went through her story andall of her stuff can be traced
back to a falling out she hadwith her sister.
50 years prior she had beenmarried, she had kids.
(21:52):
She had a terrible relationshipwith all of them.
She went to the local church.
She was known to be the mostbitter lady in that church.
People always avoided her wholelife.
She was always bitter and angryat the whole world because she
had a falling out with hersister and she thought if my
sister betrays me, I can't trustanyone.
So she attacked everyone inlife for the rest of her life
(22:15):
until her 70s when shecompletely broke down.
Just think about what couldhave happened if she'd actually
went through grief and gottenhelp for that Help that's
actually available.
Get help.
Don't do that to yourself.
If you had a physical injury,go to a doctor.
When you have an emotional,mental injury like a horrible
childhood abuse, toxicrelationships, going through a
(22:38):
divorce, get help for that,excuse me.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
I love that commentary and it makes total
sense to me and it leads into mynext question is I?
We talked about in the introabout how the importance of
trust and billing and how tobuild trust in our relationships
, and I think for some of usmaybe we misunderstand the idea
or the concept of trust, and sohow can it be both earned and
yet given in a relationship?
Speaker 3 (23:03):
That's exactly what it is.
It is earned and given at thesame time.
That's really important.
It's not the trust, is notthrowing open the doors of trust
, because you're going to gethurt, and I hate to say this,
but it's just true.
People who are predators,people who are toxic, people who
(23:24):
are narcissists, that aremanipulative people they will
see you coming if you are overlytrusting, if you just throw the
doors open and so you do haveto go slow with trust.
That's really what dating isall about.
In building relationships isbuilding that trust, and you
(23:45):
have to give it and earn it atthe same time, because if you
don't give a person anopportunity, there's no way you
can earn it.
If you watch them every second,even if they do everything
right, then you can always comeback with if I wasn't watching,
what would they do?
You have to find that out.
You have to give enough trustfor them to earn it, but not so
(24:07):
much that you make yourselfvulnerable at first.
So it's this dance that we do.
It's this dance back and forthof giving and earning that trust
, giving a little more, earningthat trust and listen, the
complicated thing is we're bothdoing that for each other at the
same time.
It's not just one way.
We have to do that with eachother at the same time until
(24:27):
that place that we can fullytrust someone.
And that takes time and,especially if you've been hurt
before, take your time, butdon't take too long.
There's a balance here.
This is all a dance.
This is all a balance of givingand earning, taking time, but
not too much time.
And again, if you're strugglingwith that and it is a struggle,
get help for it.
(24:52):
You're not going to go into acounselor and say I'm really
having some struggles with trustafter I've been hurt and hear a
counselor say really I've neverheard that one before.
Every counselor has heard thatbecause we've been through that.
There's ways that we can helpwith that as a coach or a
counselor in order to build thattrust over time.
But the key is it has to beearned and given and earned at
the same time.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
That makes complete sense to me and it truly is a
dance because there is that.
We need to test that.
How much trust do I give?
And I think, going in with themindset of that that you're
having, creating this space fortrust to build and grow allows
you an opportunity to both bestill have some boundaries
within it, but then growing andexpanding, and that kind of
(25:33):
leads me to thinking about.
We've been talking lots aboutour personal relationships and
within marriage and that, but alot of those shifts.
A little bit.
We do, we, most of us, workright.
We have to be in a workenvironment as well, and love
looks differently in work.
And so how would let's talkabout the forgiveness aspect in
a work relationship and whythat's so challenging for many
(25:53):
of us?
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Yeah, and it is important to point out that the
five components of love that Italked about earlier can apply
to work relationships just asmuch at home.
Because you think about work.
Yeah, there's going to be downtimes.
You're going to grieve throughthat Not the same as you would
maybe for a personal family loss, but it's still a grief process
.
You're still going to haveemotion about what you do for a
living.
It's still practical.
You still have to trustyourself, love yourself, enjoy
(26:18):
being the person you are in thatworkplace, and you still have
to have fun.
You still have to enjoy it.
So all those things still applyto work.
Not the same relationships,obviously, but the same
components to build thoserelationships.
But when things do go wrong,when we are betrayed, there is a
method to forgiveness, and it'sreally twofold.
(26:40):
One is we need to make thecommitment when we are forgiving
someone and let me back up weneed to forgive because if you
don't, it's just going to eatyou up, it's going to eat you
alive.
It's been said I'm not sureit's debated who said this, but
there's an old saying that forunforgiveness, bitterness, anger
, those kinds of things are likedrinking poison and expecting
(27:01):
the other person to die.
It just eats you up if youcan't forgive.
And so it's just a requirementfor our own health, and our own
mental health and physicalhealth for that matter.
And when you do what,forgiveness is a commitment to
not seek revenge against thatperson in real life or in our
(27:21):
imagination.
And there's the tricky partit's really easy for some people
I think most people to not seekrevenge.
They want to forgive, to notseek revenge in person.
That doesn't mean are inreality, that doesn't mean that
they don't experienceconsequences If they've done
something illegal to you andthey have to face the law.
That's not revenge, that's justtheir own consequences.
(27:43):
And so we don't rescue themfrom consequences.
But we don't seek revenge.
We don't intentionally go outto hurt them or injure them or
damage them in some way, and wedo that in real life.
But we also make that samecommitment in our imagination.
So many people will not seekrevenge in real life, but they
(28:04):
think about it and they ruminateon it and go over it of what I
would do and what I would sayand how I'd like to get this
person Listen.
Your brain can't reallydistinguish the two.
Yes, your brain doesn't draw ahuge distinction between
punching that person in the faceand imagining punching that
person in the face over and overagain, your brain can't really
(28:28):
tell a huge difference.
So the same toll it would takeon you if you were to punch
somebody in the face and thenthink that's not the kind of guy
I want to be, that's not thekind of person I really am.
If you're imagining it, yourbody's going to react the same
way, your emotion is going toreact the same way.
That tense feeling is going tobe the same way and it's going
to have the same long-termeffects.
And so forgiveness is thechoice.
(28:50):
Does it mean we don't feelanger?
Does it mean that we don't haveemotions?
But it does mean that we make achoice not to seek revenge,
both in real life and ourimagination.
Then the second part is then weget them to make a choice of
whether or not we continue yourrelationship with that person.
Forgiveness does not necessarilymean reconciliation.
(29:12):
It just means we don't seekrevenge.
It means we don't seek revengein reality or imagination.
It doesn't mean that we restorethat relationship.
We might, and if thatrelationship is important and we
want to restore thatrelationship, then we go back to
grief again, going through theprocess that we've been hurt.
We need to come back from thatand we find ways to reconcile.
(29:32):
If we choose to, we canreconcile with that person, but
it is never required.
If we go back to practicalityone of the practical realities
some relationships need to end.
Boundaries are a real thing.
They need to exist withinrelationships and within life,
and boundaries means some peoplearen't going to be in our life.
That's a practical reality andso it's a practical area of love
(29:56):
.
Sometimes people are shockedwhen I say that because they
think, as a relationship coachand a man who writes about love
and relationships, I just thinkeverything should always work
out In theory.
If everyone practiced the fivecomponents of love, yeah,
absolutely it would work out.
Not everybody's going to dothat.
Not everybody's going to behealthy enough in their own mind
to practice these things andlive this life.
(30:19):
And so some people, sadly, asI've said before, are predators.
They're toxic, they're abusive,and the best thing that could
happen to an abuser is to runout of people to abuse Best
thing you can do for them.
And so, if you have been hurtby someone, make the choice Is
this relationship restorable anddo you want to?
Are you willing to put the workin.
(30:40):
If not, you make the choice notto seek revenge in your reality
and in your imagination and youend that relationship, and
that's a perfectly valid choice.
Either way.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
It's so interesting that we're talking about this
right now, because my wife and Ilast night were looking to
connect and so we had thesequestions, these generative
questions, and one of the thingsthat topics came up was talking
about how we get upset that,how other people have hurt us
and how we continue to carrythat piece with us.
And we were going back andforth and saying, does that make
(31:13):
me a bad person?
And my commentary was it's not.
If you're going to, as long asyou don't stay there, you know
I'll have fleeting moments.
I have a 45 minute commutebetween between what I do for a
day job and between other thingsthat I do, and so I'll listen
to stuff and I thought wouldcome through my mind and
somebody that's wronged me, andthen, and when I was like, okay,
I'm gonna say this, I'm gonnasay that to them, and then I
(31:35):
catch myself and go how doesthat serve them and me?
And maybe the most loving thingto do is to not engage in that.
And then, in the flip side ofthat, maybe the most loving
thing is in differentrelationships you talked about
setting boundaries is tellingsome person that they have
overstepped it and that therelationship does have to end.
And that is a loving piece,especially as a father of a son
(31:58):
who is an addict.
And so there's a struggle therefor me at times to show him
love and yet not be that personto enable everything.
And so it is a dance with him,as we talked about earlier.
It is a dance in these.
It's not easy, because if itwas easy then the world would
have no problems.
But that's just not the way lifeis, and we need frameworks,
(32:19):
simple frameworks like the oneyou've given us today, to help
us do that.
And so that leads me to thisidea that we've been talking
about.
All about today is really aboutlove and connection.
So how, how do we move fromwhat we would consider to have a
I have a pretty good life tohaving a great life?
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Yeah, it's very common to ask that question
because sometimes we do get alot of these right.
If you're going from good togreat, it's usually going to be
that you're going frompracticing three or four of
these components to practicingfive of them, to getting to a
place where you've got all five.
Clicking in your life Doesn'tmean life is perfect, because
it's always a practice Love andrelationships are always a
(32:58):
practice but it means thatyou've got all five components
and you're working on all ofthem.
When you think it's good, butit's not quite what I want it to
be, it will always be becauseyou're missing one of those
components.
It's not quite where.
Maybe you're not completelymissing it, Maybe it's just not
where it needs to be, and a lotof time it's going to be grief
(33:21):
that's holding you back, becauseyou aren't able to open up, you
aren't able to connect enoughbecause of that past hurt you
haven't grieved through that.
Or it's about self-love, becausewe try to love other people
before we love ourself.
We think somehow if we loveother people and we get them to
love us, that will validate usand then we'll love ourself.
Sounds logical, but it doesn'twork.
(33:42):
We have to love ourself first,absolutely a psychological
requirement you have to loveyourself first and remember to
have fun, because most peopleput love into that second
category, just emotion, and yeah, that's one of them.
We don't ignore that.
That's a very important one,but it's not more important than
the other four.
We can't just rely on thatemotion and so if we have a good
(34:02):
relationship, you've probablygot emotional connection, you've
probably got some practicalitygoing for yourself, you might
even have some fun going in yourlife, but you might be missing
some of these others like grief,hold you back or self-love.
Identify what's missing andmove to that great level and if
you're struggling with that, asI said, get some help with that.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Love.
That.
That makes complete sense to me, for absolutely or you've been
spending most of your career,most of your adult life sounds
like counseling and leadingothers, and some would say
that's offering advice and wordsof wisdom.
So I have a different take onthis next question for you, and
that's you obviously must havehad somebody or a book or
something that has been aninfluence and made a difference
(34:46):
in your life, and so my questionfor you is what has been the
best piece of advice that you'vebeen given that's still serving
you today?
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Oh, gosh, there's so many.
Wow, that's going to be a toughone to pick.
I think some of the best adviceI ever heard was let it play
out, because we sometimes getcaught so much in the struggles
of the moment that we don't justtake time to look and see where
we're headed and to make somegood decisions.
(35:14):
We get so wrapped up in thismoment and this idea of let it
play out, see how life is goingand make decisions as you go.
It takes a while sometimes toget where you want to go, and
that's okay.
Let it play out, work at it,make some decisions.
Don't try to make everythinggood instantly, don't try to fix
(35:36):
everything instantly.
And I think that was great forme, because I am a guy that
thinks I should get the answerand find the answer and put the
answer in place, and that may beavailable.
As I said, I think the fivecomponents of love are the
answer, and find the answer andput the answer in place, and
that may be available.
As I've said, I think the fivecomponents of love are the
answer.
Love is the answer and the fivecomponents are how to practice
love.
But let it play out, practiceit, let it formulate in your
(35:58):
life, develop in your life anddevelop in your relationships.
I think if we take a breaksometimes and don't try to fix
everything instantly but take alonger view of letting things
develop and putting a practicein place and seeing where that
goes, I think that's helped me alot and I think that would help
a lot of people if we just tooka breath and took our time.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Completely agree.
Just let it play out.
Sometimes we do.
I'm not that guy as well.
I just got to figure it all outand be on top of it and
managing it and but not reallyallowing it to actually just
flourish and grow and change,and so thank you so much for
that advice, mark.
Of everything that we spokeabout today, maybe there was
something we didn't get a chanceto touch on, what would be a
takeaway you'd like ourlisteners to have?
Speaker 3 (36:46):
listeners to have.
Well, the biggest takeaway andwe did touch on it but I want
people to know that love is alearned skill set, particularly
if you have been through adivorce, if you've come through
a dysfunctional family, ifyou've been through some sort of
trauma, if you're questioningwhether love really exists or
can exist for you.
It is a learned skill set.
If we keep going back to thatunderstanding it's not luck,
it's not fate, it's not mystery.
(37:07):
It is a learned skill set thatwe can put into place.
I think that changes the wholegame of life.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Love that, love that.
Well, my friend, thank you somuch for being on the show today
and spending time with us andhelping us learn how to transfer
in love from just somethingthat happens to learning it as a
skill, so we can really buildhealthy relationships, thriving
relationships, not just at home,but in our personal life, our
work and all other parts of ourlives.
So if men are interested ingetting a hold of you and
(37:36):
participating in your work, whatwould be the best way for them
to do that?
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Go to my website.
It's markahickscom.
Make sure you get my middleinitial in there, markahickscom.
Make sure you get my middleinitial in there, markahickscom.
You can order my book.
There's an easy link there todo that.
You can get to my podcast, theLearning Love podcast.
I have my own podcast where Italk about the lessons I teach
in my book and also there isnewsletter and there's a contact
(38:01):
form.
I do speaking engagements,workshops, coaching, so if I can
be of help in some way, there'sa contact form there.
Let me know how I could be ofservice.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Absolutely, and Mark's book's coming out this
June, so make sure that you havean opportunity to get it and
get a hold of it.
It's always going to be afantastic book and I'll make
sure that wherever Mark is onsocial media and his website,
we're going to have those notesin today's episode.
Once again, just want to saythank you so much, mark, for
being on the show.
Love the conversation.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Oh, my pleasure.
I enjoyed it as well, thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Thank you for listening to the Revolutionary
man podcast.
Are you ready to own yourdestiny, to become more the man
you are destined to be?
Join the brotherhood that isthe Awakened man at
theawakendmannet and startforging a new destiny today.
So let's just imagine navigating our relationships
without a roadmap.
You know, we're unsure of howto build trust, to navigate
forgiveness or even the deepemotional connections, and for
many of us, this concept of lovefeels more like a mystery than
it is a skill that we can master.
And whether it's marriage orfamily or friendships, or even
at work, relationships are thethings that shape our lives, and
(00:23):
yet so often we struggle tomake them thrive.
But what if love wasn't just afeeling but a learned skill, one
that anyone can practice andcan master?
And so in today's episode,we're going to explore five
components of love and coverpractical tools for building
healthy relationships.
We're going to learn how tomove from surviving
relationships to creating onethat's truly thrive.
(00:46):
And before we get into today'stopic, let's just take a moment
and talk about something elsethat could change your life as
well, and we all know how hardit is for us to stay true to
ourselves in a world that isconstantly pulling us in
different directions.
So the pressures for men here toprovide and perform and
persevere can lead us to feelingdisconnected, like we're
drifting further from the manthat we want to be.
(01:07):
And so if you've ever feltstruck or frustrated and are
unsure of how to bridge the gapbetween life that you have and
the life that you want, then letme introduce you to Living With
Integrity.
This is more than just aprogram.
It's a roadmap oftransformation.
You're going to learn how toalign your actions with your
values, rebuild meaningfulconnections and create a legacy
that truly matters.
(01:28):
So, if you're ready to takecontrol of your life with
purpose, become the man yourfamily, community and future
needs you to be.
I'm going to challenge you toget started today.
Go to our membership site,membersthewakenmannet and begin
your journey today by taking ourintegrity challenge, Because
the only thing standing betweenyou and your life you're capable
of is the decision to take thatfirst step.
(01:50):
And with that, let's go on withtoday's episode.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
The average man today is sleepwalking through life,
many never reaching their truepotential, let alone ever
crossing the finish line toliving a purposeful life.
Yet the hunger still exists,albeit buried amidst his
cluttered mind, misguidedbeliefs and values that no
longer serve him.
It's time to rely on yourselffor greatness.
(02:17):
It's time to become arevolutionary man.
Stay strong, my brother.
Welcome everyone to theRevolutionary man Podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
strong, my brother, welcome everyone to the
Revolutionary man podcast.
I'm the founder of the Awakenedman Movement and your host,
alan DeMonso.
Before we get started, let meask you a couple of questions.
How might your life change ifyou approach love and
relationships as skills to belearned rather than practiced
and relying on feelings justalone?
(02:44):
And what role does trust,forgiveness and self-awareness
play in creating fulfillingrelationships that you want and
you deserve?
Building healthy relationshipsis not just about luck or
circumstance.
It's about understanding,effort and learning, and today
we're going to uncover how lovecan be taught, practiced and
(03:04):
even mastered.
Yes, men, we're going touncover how love can be taught,
practiced and even mastered.
Yes, man, we're going to learnto master this thing,
transforming every area of ourlives.
And so to do that, I'm going tointroduce.
Allow me to introduce my guesttoday.
Dr Mark Hicks is an author, aghostwriter, speaker, counselor
and relationship specialist.
His passion lies in unravelingthe mysteries of love and
relationships, digging deep intowhat makes them tick, and Mark
(03:26):
firmly believes that the healthyrelationships are the
cornerstone of fulfilling lifeand career, and he loves sharing
his insights.
That changes lives, and that'swhy Mark has poured his heart
and soul into his book LearningLove, building a Life that
Matters, and HealthyRelationships that Last.
And in learning love, heteaches the five components of
love that anyone can learn frompractice to build healthy, happy
(03:49):
, thriving relationships,regardless of their relationship
experiences so far.
That's a really big thing forme, I think.
And so in a world that's waytoo often there's grip by
loneliness, dysfunction andtrauma, especially as we get
older gentlemen, mark offershope and guidance for us to help
find deeper connections.
Welcome to the show, mark.
I'm looking so much forward tothis conversation.
(04:10):
How are things?
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Great.
Looking forward to speakingwith you today.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, it's been a bit to try to get us here
coordinated and get onto thisshow, and I'm really glad that
we're here today because this issuch a deep topic for us to
discuss.
But before we truly dive intothe topic, I'd like to have to
talk a little bit more aboutyour story, and so here on the
Revolutionary man podcast, weall know that we're all on our
own heroes quest or our ownheroes journey, so tell us about
(04:37):
that moment in your life, thatdeath and rebirth moment, and
how that experience shaped youinto the man you are today and
the work that you're doing.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
It really started when I was a young man.
I didn't always know what Iknow now.
My book is based on my careeras a counselor.
I also come from a spiritualbackground and so from both
spirituality and from psychologyI write my book about love and
relationships.
I write my book about love andrelationships, but it also has a
(05:06):
beginning in my own personalstory, because when I was young
I ended up in a toxic firstmarriage.
It ended in divorce.
I still have the emotional scarsfor that one and even though I
had been raised in a healthy,happy family, I had parents that
stayed married until my fatherpassed away a few years ago.
They had a great life together.
(05:28):
I was treated very well as achild.
I had what everyone hopes tohave as a childhood and yet as I
got into my adult years I stilldidn't know what it took to be
safe and healthy and happywithin relationships and ended
up in this toxic first marriageand from that I began to ask a
(05:49):
lot of questions Didn't fullyrealize it at the time, but it
stirred in my soul of is loveeven possible?
Is it just something thathappens to a lucky few people
that happen to stumble into it?
Is it something that can reallybe built and learned and
developed?
How would we go about that, ifthat's even possible?
(06:09):
And from those questions andfrom my background in psychology
and counseling, from mybackground in spirituality, I
came to this place ofunderstanding that, yes, it is a
learned skill set.
We can actually learn it, andnot only can we, but we need to,
because most people do learnlove and relationships from
(06:30):
their family, and that's usuallya terrible source In the best
case scenario, as mine was.
Things work a certain way inyour family and it works for
your family, but you get outinto the world and you don't
often know how things reallywork.
They just worked in your familyand it works for your family,
but you get out to the world andyou don't often know how things
really work.
They just worked in your familyand every family has its own
brand of weird and quirky andodd, and that's okay.
(06:53):
But it doesn't necessarily workin all our relationships and
that's best case scenario.
From there, you havedysfunctional families, you have
toxic, you have even abusivefamilies, and how are people
like that, growing up in thosekinds of environments, supposed
to learn what love is and how tolive it?
And so it can't just be thisrandom thing that we learned
(07:15):
somewhat from our family.
It needs to be a learned skillset, and it is, and that's what
I teach in my book.
I teach the five components oflove.
Anybody can learn and practicethese five components to build
the healthy, happy relationshipsthey want in every area to
thrive at home.
And this is not just aboutmarriage although it is about
(07:35):
marriage and romanticrelationships but it's also
about family, friendships, workrelationships, loving what you
do for a living, partnering withyour co-workers to accomplish
that.
Every area of life is affectedby love and relationships that
is so true, mark.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
That's so true, and what a great way to start our
conversation today, because itwould.
It wouldn't have surprised meif you would have told the story
of a dysfunctional family thatyou learned, that you were
learning your love skills fromand trying to build a
relationship.
But that's not the case.
And so for many of us, we'vereally, I think, we've shattered
that first myth of what we maythink that hey, if I've come
(08:12):
from a family, the situationthat it wasn't perfect, maybe it
was single parent, maybe noteven, but it was just a
dysfunctional family, then it'stypical.
That's the reason why myrelationships tend to suffer as
an adult.
But that's not the case.
You still had good models, rolemodels in front of you, and I
love the point that you make.
Because it worked with yourfamily doesn't necessarily mean
(08:33):
that it works in otherrelationships, and that's a
great piece of wisdom.
So thank you for bringing thatforward and having us really
understand that we do.
It is a learned skill.
We have to learn that partner,that relationship, whether it's
in marriage or family or wivesor another relationship.
They have their own sets ofexperience.
And so, after I had beenmarried for as well the first
(08:55):
time and married my high schoolsweetheart and that didn't last
until we got into our both intoour early 30s, and that fell
apart, and I just think aboutthe lessons I learned there.
So this was your, really yourcatapult sounds that got you to
start writing the book.
And so let's talk a little bitmore about your book, learning
Love and these five components.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yeah, I'd be happy to go through those the five
components.
The first one is grief, andthat one surprises people.
Usually, when we think aboutlove, we think about bubblegum
and butterflies, everythingsweet and beautiful, and we get
to that there is an element ofthat.
Obviously we want love to be abeautiful thing, but no one gets
through life without scars, aswe've mentioned, even if you
(09:39):
come from a healthy family, as Idid.
If you come from a healthyfamily, you don't really
understand some of the downsidesof life the manipulation, the
toxicity.
You're not prepared for thosethings and you get into that in
life and you just don't know howto deal with it.
If you came out of that, thenmaybe you don't have a model to
go by from your childhood.
(10:01):
But whatever your story is, youdon't get through life without
scars.
Life is always going to bringits share of hardships.
That is not being pessimistic.
There's some great things aboutlife, but everyone's going to
go through hardships and whenyou do, you need your comeback
story.
What people tend to do is whenwe go through those hard times,
(10:23):
we start putting up walls, weput up emotional barriers, we
keep people at arm's length, weprotect ourselves, thinking we
don't want to get hurt again,and there's a certain logic to
that.
Obviously, the problem is we'rebuilding our own emotional
prison.
We are barricading ourselvesaway from the people that could
be loving us and from therelationships that could be
(10:43):
thriving.
There's so many people thathave a story of the time they
were hurt in life, the timesomeone hurt them and in their
soul they said I will never letsomeone hurt me like this again.
And that becomes a mantra forlife, even without thinking
about it again, even withoutknowing it, and we keep people
pushed away.
And then we wonder what's wrongwith my relationships?
(11:06):
I have good people in my life.
I'm a good person.
We're all trying here, but it'snot quite working.
Part of that is because westill have that hurt we've never
dealt with.
If you know how to grieve, youknow how to keep your life, your
heart, your mind open.
You have that comeback story soyou can stay connected, and
that is a foundation for gettingthrough the tough times of life
(11:28):
and staying in thoserelationships.
Now, when you can do that, youcan move to the second component
of love, and that's emotion.
That is the bubblegum andbutterflies.
That's what we all love.
We love it whenever we havethat emotional connection, when
we really feel like we areconnected with people, when
things at home really feel good,when we're at work and we're
(11:49):
hitting on all cylinders andwe're getting things done
productively and we're enjoyingthe people we're working with.
At the same time, when life isreally working, it just feels
good and we have thoseconnections.
That's what we want, that'swhat we're going for, and for
some people those emotionalconnections become easy.
For some people they can bedifficult, they can be a
(12:09):
struggle, especially guys thatare introverted, people that
have been hurt and haven'tlearned how to grieve yet and
are starting that process.
It's a bit more difficult.
And to those folks I say it's apractice.
You don't have to be perfect atit.
Just do it a little at a time.
Learn to say things like I loveyou and if that's just too much
(12:30):
because maybe love was a loadedword in a family you grew up
with, maybe it was amanipulative word where you grew
up and say things like Iappreciate you, say thank you
when somebody does somethingnice to you.
Just start where you are.
It's fine.
You'll get better at it.
Every other practice when youshow a little bit of emotion,
you show a little appreciation,you show a little love for
someone, that can grow, thatpractice can grow and you grow
(12:53):
into those emotionalrelationships.
The third component is abalancing component and that's
practicality.
Emotion brings us together.
Practicality keeps us together.
That's how we live welltogether.
We make good decisions.
We make the decisions and putinto place the practices we need
(13:15):
in our relationships to makethem work.
In a family, in a marriage or apartnership, that would be
things like making goodfinancial decisions, because
money can tear a relationshipapart if you don't make good
financial decisions.
Communication Communication isa learned skill set.
You can learn how tocommunicate, learn how to do
that.
Things like mental health Ifyou're dealing with depression
(13:39):
and anxiety, that's going totake a toll on you.
It's going to take a toll onyour relationships and those are
treatable conditions.
That's why it's a practicalmatter, because there are
treatments for these things toget better.
There's a long list of ways wedo decisions.
We make ways that we livetogether in a practical way, so
that we are not only connectingemotionally but we're living
(14:01):
together.
You might've heard someone sayI love them but I just can't
live with them.
That's somebody who hasconnected emotionally.
They got the second componentof love down really well.
They failed on the thirdcomponent of love Practicality.
That keeps us together, livingtogether.
Well, now the fourth componentis acceptance, and that's
(14:24):
twofold.
One is accepting others,because no one's going to be
perfect.
Now there's limits to that,because we never accept abuse.
We were never put on thisplanet to be abused.
No one should accept abuse.
So there are limits, but withinthose limits we have to accept.
Others are not, they're notgoing to be perfect.
We have to come back from thosehurts.
(14:44):
That's why we have to learn howto grieve, because sometimes
things aren't going to beperfect.
But more importantly, it'sabout accepting ourselves.
Brene Brown has done some greatwork on this.
Other people have as well Tounderstand.
Scientifically, psychologically,you cannot love other people
more than you love yourself.
(15:04):
It's impossible.
That's the limit, because loveis not a commodity like money.
If you need more money, you canget a second job or take on a
loan or borrow money from afriend or some other thing to
get money.
Love is organic.
It has to be grown.
You cannot give it away unlessyou grow it within you.
(15:25):
You have to begin loving andaccepting yourself, and this is
one of the areas people reallystruggle in love is they may
love their partner very much,but they don't love themselves.
And then they wonder why isthis not working?
It's because you can't loveyour partner unless you love
yourself.
You may have feelings for them,but you can't really love them.
You have to begin lovingyourself.
(15:46):
And finally, there's passion.
The fifth component of love ispassion, and this is a passion
for life.
This is enjoying life togetheras a couple, enjoying your job,
enjoying your friends, learningto have fun.
Fun is not an option, it is arequirement for healthy,
(16:09):
thriving relationships.
And sometimes we get into thegrind.
We've come through the grief oflife, we've connected
emotionally, we're doing all thepractical stuff, we're checking
it off the list to make sure welive together well, doing
everything right, and we're evenloving ourselves as we love our
partner.
But then something's missing.
We've forgotten to have apassion for life.
Why are we doing all this?
Why are we going through allthese other steps?
(16:29):
It's in order to truly enjoyour life together with our
friends, with our coworkers,love what we do and love our
partner, our wife, in order toreally thrive in life.
Now, I know that's very quickgoing through those, but if you
practice those five things, yougrieve the tough times of life,
you connect emotionally, youlive well together in a
(16:50):
practical way, you love yourselffirst so that you have the
capacity to love other peopleand you remember to have fun and
have a passion for life.
You can build healthyrelationships in every area of
your life.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Excuse me, that is so powerful.
Mark, and I was listening toyou go through the five
components and I have to say,for a great part of even this,
the second, my second marriage,and we've been together just
over 20 years.
We celebrated our 20thanniversary here this past
October.
But I was that guy who waswounded from my first and I
hadn't opened up and it didcause problems in our
(17:26):
relationship.
And so when you were sayingthat I was going, man, like
absolutely the emotionaldisconnection was there because
I was still protecting myself.
I can remember, as bad as thisis going to sound, saying to my
wife, Kimmy, that I can nevergive you a hundred percent of
myself.
I have to protect, I have tokeep a little bit.
I sit there and say andlistening to you talk about this
(17:48):
today and go, man, that's notthe way to be.
It's to just to give all of it,not to lose myself, but to be
open all of it.
And so when you were talkedabout that and then you talked,
I really liked how you made thedistinction emotions, what
brings us together and it's thepracticality that keeps it
together, and just being able todo things so that we can have
(18:10):
fun and we can live and dothings.
Because why are we doing allthis work?
And I think for guys, we tendto get wrapped up into, as long
as I can, put a roof over myhead and food on the table and
taking care of things around thehouse.
Maybe we forget that we need tohave fun and plan that vacation
or plan that weekend to go dosomething, but to be involved
(18:31):
and engaged in our life, and soI think that's what you're
really asking us to do is reallylean into our relationships,
and I so appreciate that.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
And what you've done right there is.
Exactly what I hope people willdo with my book is learn those
five components, and a lot oftimes we're doing two or three
of them just fine, especially ifwe came from a healthy family
but then we'll think whatexactly is missing.
This is a way to conceptualizewhat love actually is, to break
it down to its five components.
(19:00):
It's not a million movingpieces, it's not a mystery.
It is all boiled down to thesefive components that we can look
at and say this one I've got,I'm doing this one.
Maybe it's by accident, maybeit's because I was raised in a
family that taught me this part,maybe somehow I just learned it
, but this was the one I'mmissing.
Or these two are the ones weneed to work on, and it gives us
(19:21):
a way to conceptualize, notjust wondering how to fix things
, but knowing what exactly weneed to work on.
And, of course, in my book Italk about some how-tos and some
ways to address each one ofthose components if you're
struggling with it.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Absolutely, and that's a perfect reason why I
need to get out there and getthat book and really start to
implement some of this stuff,because I would totally agree
with you.
We talked a little bit nowcoming out of relationships that
are from our parents and ourfamilies, that maybe we're okay.
But what about the person who'scome from a dysfunctional or
maybe an abusive background?
How do they begin to healthemselves?
(19:58):
Is it going right to step fourand acceptance, or is it
something more than that?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
I think if you've come through a very difficult
time, you've got to start withthat grief.
That's your comeback story.
That is your way back to aplace where you can really build
those healthy relationships.
And if you've come through atoxic relationship, you've come
through an abusive relationship.
Listen, get help for that.
I know sometimes there's astigma with counseling and, with
(20:25):
all due respect, that's justwrong.
It is just wrong.
We go to a doctor if we have aphysical injury.
We go to a dentist for ourteeth.
We go to a mechanic.
If our car is not running well,we'll call a plumber.
We'll call a lawyer.
I can list dozens ofprofessionals that we work with
all the time to meet our needsand to make our life better.
(20:49):
Why would we not get help forour mental and emotional
struggles and for ourrelationships, when that's
what's going to make us happy,that's what's going to build our
life, that's what's going tofulfill our life, is the
relationships we have at homeand at work.
And if we're going through agrief process, get help for that
(21:11):
.
If you've come through abuse,get help for that.
There are counselors, coaches,therapists of all kinds.
Find someone who can help youwith that.
Don't buy into this ridiculousstigma.
Don't just try to pick yourselfup by your bootstraps.
I worked with a lady one timeand she was in her 70s.
(21:31):
She came into a counselingprogram where I worked horribly
depressed, a lot of issues goingon.
Long story short.
We went through her story andall of her stuff can be traced
back to a falling out she hadwith her sister.
50 years prior she had beenmarried, she had kids.
(21:52):
She had a terrible relationshipwith all of them.
She went to the local church.
She was known to be the mostbitter lady in that church.
People always avoided her wholelife.
She was always bitter and angryat the whole world because she
had a falling out with hersister and she thought if my
sister betrays me, I can't trustanyone.
So she attacked everyone inlife for the rest of her life
(22:15):
until her 70s when shecompletely broke down.
Just think about what couldhave happened if she'd actually
went through grief and gottenhelp for that Help that's
actually available.
Get help.
Don't do that to yourself.
If you had a physical injury,go to a doctor.
When you have an emotional,mental injury like a horrible
childhood abuse, toxicrelationships, going through a
(22:38):
divorce, get help for that,excuse me.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
I love that commentary and it makes total
sense to me and it leads into mynext question is I?
We talked about in the introabout how the importance of
trust and billing and how tobuild trust in our relationships
, and I think for some of usmaybe we misunderstand the idea
or the concept of trust, and sohow can it be both earned and
yet given in a relationship?
Speaker 3 (23:03):
That's exactly what it is.
It is earned and given at thesame time.
That's really important.
It's not the trust, is notthrowing open the doors of trust
, because you're going to gethurt, and I hate to say this,
but it's just true.
People who are predators,people who are toxic, people who
(23:24):
are narcissists, that aremanipulative people they will
see you coming if you are overlytrusting, if you just throw the
doors open and so you do haveto go slow with trust.
That's really what dating isall about.
In building relationships isbuilding that trust, and you
(23:45):
have to give it and earn it atthe same time, because if you
don't give a person anopportunity, there's no way you
can earn it.
If you watch them every second,even if they do everything
right, then you can always comeback with if I wasn't watching,
what would they do?
You have to find that out.
You have to give enough trustfor them to earn it, but not so
(24:07):
much that you make yourselfvulnerable at first.
So it's this dance that we do.
It's this dance back and forthof giving and earning that trust
, giving a little more, earningthat trust and listen, the
complicated thing is we're bothdoing that for each other at the
same time.
It's not just one way.
We have to do that with eachother at the same time until
(24:27):
that place that we can fullytrust someone.
And that takes time and,especially if you've been hurt
before, take your time, butdon't take too long.
There's a balance here.
This is all a dance.
This is all a balance of givingand earning, taking time, but
not too much time.
And again, if you're strugglingwith that and it is a struggle,
get help for it.
(24:52):
You're not going to go into acounselor and say I'm really
having some struggles with trustafter I've been hurt and hear a
counselor say really I've neverheard that one before.
Every counselor has heard thatbecause we've been through that.
There's ways that we can helpwith that as a coach or a
counselor in order to build thattrust over time.
But the key is it has to beearned and given and earned at
the same time.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
That makes complete sense to me and it truly is a
dance because there is that.
We need to test that.
How much trust do I give?
And I think, going in with themindset of that that you're
having, creating this space fortrust to build and grow allows
you an opportunity to both bestill have some boundaries
within it, but then growing andexpanding, and that kind of
(25:33):
leads me to thinking about.
We've been talking lots aboutour personal relationships and
within marriage and that, but alot of those shifts.
A little bit.
We do, we, most of us, workright.
We have to be in a workenvironment as well, and love
looks differently in work.
And so how would let's talkabout the forgiveness aspect in
a work relationship and whythat's so challenging for many
(25:53):
of us?
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Yeah, and it is important to point out that the
five components of love that Italked about earlier can apply
to work relationships just asmuch at home.
Because you think about work.
Yeah, there's going to be downtimes.
You're going to grieve throughthat Not the same as you would
maybe for a personal family loss, but it's still a grief process
.
You're still going to haveemotion about what you do for a
living.
It's still practical.
You still have to trustyourself, love yourself, enjoy
(26:18):
being the person you are in thatworkplace, and you still have
to have fun.
You still have to enjoy it.
So all those things still applyto work.
Not the same relationships,obviously, but the same
components to build thoserelationships.
But when things do go wrong,when we are betrayed, there is a
method to forgiveness, and it'sreally twofold.
(26:40):
One is we need to make thecommitment when we are forgiving
someone and let me back up weneed to forgive because if you
don't, it's just going to eatyou up, it's going to eat you
alive.
It's been said I'm not sureit's debated who said this, but
there's an old saying that forunforgiveness, bitterness, anger
, those kinds of things are likedrinking poison and expecting
(27:01):
the other person to die.
It just eats you up if youcan't forgive.
And so it's just a requirementfor our own health, and our own
mental health and physicalhealth for that matter.
And when you do what,forgiveness is a commitment to
not seek revenge against thatperson in real life or in our
(27:21):
imagination.
And there's the tricky partit's really easy for some people
I think most people to not seekrevenge.
They want to forgive, to notseek revenge in person.
That doesn't mean are inreality, that doesn't mean that
they don't experienceconsequences If they've done
something illegal to you andthey have to face the law.
That's not revenge, that's justtheir own consequences.
(27:43):
And so we don't rescue themfrom consequences.
But we don't seek revenge.
We don't intentionally go outto hurt them or injure them or
damage them in some way, and wedo that in real life.
But we also make that samecommitment in our imagination.
So many people will not seekrevenge in real life, but they
(28:04):
think about it and they ruminateon it and go over it of what I
would do and what I would sayand how I'd like to get this
person Listen.
Your brain can't reallydistinguish the two.
Yes, your brain doesn't draw ahuge distinction between
punching that person in the faceand imagining punching that
person in the face over and overagain, your brain can't really
(28:28):
tell a huge difference.
So the same toll it would takeon you if you were to punch
somebody in the face and thenthink that's not the kind of guy
I want to be, that's not thekind of person I really am.
If you're imagining it, yourbody's going to react the same
way, your emotion is going toreact the same way.
That tense feeling is going tobe the same way and it's going
to have the same long-termeffects.
And so forgiveness is thechoice.
(28:50):
Does it mean we don't feelanger?
Does it mean that we don't haveemotions?
But it does mean that we make achoice not to seek revenge,
both in real life and ourimagination.
Then the second part is then weget them to make a choice of
whether or not we continue yourrelationship with that person.
Forgiveness does not necessarilymean reconciliation.
(29:12):
It just means we don't seekrevenge.
It means we don't seek revengein reality or imagination.
It doesn't mean that we restorethat relationship.
We might, and if thatrelationship is important and we
want to restore thatrelationship, then we go back to
grief again, going through theprocess that we've been hurt.
We need to come back from thatand we find ways to reconcile.
(29:32):
If we choose to, we canreconcile with that person, but
it is never required.
If we go back to practicalityone of the practical realities
some relationships need to end.
Boundaries are a real thing.
They need to exist withinrelationships and within life,
and boundaries means some peoplearen't going to be in our life.
That's a practical reality andso it's a practical area of love
(29:56):
.
Sometimes people are shockedwhen I say that because they
think, as a relationship coachand a man who writes about love
and relationships, I just thinkeverything should always work
out In theory.
If everyone practiced the fivecomponents of love, yeah,
absolutely it would work out.
Not everybody's going to dothat.
Not everybody's going to behealthy enough in their own mind
to practice these things andlive this life.
(30:19):
And so some people, sadly, asI've said before, are predators.
They're toxic, they're abusive,and the best thing that could
happen to an abuser is to runout of people to abuse Best
thing you can do for them.
And so, if you have been hurtby someone, make the choice Is
this relationship restorable anddo you want to?
Are you willing to put the workin.
(30:40):
If not, you make the choice notto seek revenge in your reality
and in your imagination and youend that relationship, and
that's a perfectly valid choice.
Either way.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
It's so interesting that we're talking about this
right now, because my wife and Ilast night were looking to
connect and so we had thesequestions, these generative
questions, and one of the thingsthat topics came up was talking
about how we get upset that,how other people have hurt us
and how we continue to carrythat piece with us.
And we were going back andforth and saying, does that make
(31:13):
me a bad person?
And my commentary was it's not.
If you're going to, as long asyou don't stay there, you know
I'll have fleeting moments.
I have a 45 minute commutebetween between what I do for a
day job and between other thingsthat I do, and so I'll listen
to stuff and I thought wouldcome through my mind and
somebody that's wronged me, andthen, and when I was like, okay,
I'm gonna say this, I'm gonnasay that to them, and then I
(31:35):
catch myself and go how doesthat serve them and me?
And maybe the most loving thingto do is to not engage in that.
And then, in the flip side ofthat, maybe the most loving
thing is in differentrelationships you talked about
setting boundaries is tellingsome person that they have
overstepped it and that therelationship does have to end.
And that is a loving piece,especially as a father of a son
(31:58):
who is an addict.
And so there's a struggle therefor me at times to show him
love and yet not be that personto enable everything.
And so it is a dance with him,as we talked about earlier.
It is a dance in these.
It's not easy, because if itwas easy then the world would
have no problems.
But that's just not the way lifeis, and we need frameworks,
(32:19):
simple frameworks like the oneyou've given us today, to help
us do that.
And so that leads me to thisidea that we've been talking
about.
All about today is really aboutlove and connection.
So how, how do we move fromwhat we would consider to have a
I have a pretty good life tohaving a great life?
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Yeah, it's very common to ask that question
because sometimes we do get alot of these right.
If you're going from good togreat, it's usually going to be
that you're going frompracticing three or four of
these components to practicingfive of them, to getting to a
place where you've got all five.
Clicking in your life Doesn'tmean life is perfect, because
it's always a practice Love andrelationships are always a
(32:58):
practice but it means thatyou've got all five components
and you're working on all ofthem.
When you think it's good, butit's not quite what I want it to
be, it will always be becauseyou're missing one of those
components.
It's not quite where.
Maybe you're not completelymissing it, Maybe it's just not
where it needs to be, and a lotof time it's going to be grief
(33:21):
that's holding you back, becauseyou aren't able to open up, you
aren't able to connect enoughbecause of that past hurt you
haven't grieved through that.
Or it's about self-love, becausewe try to love other people
before we love ourself.
We think somehow if we loveother people and we get them to
love us, that will validate usand then we'll love ourself.
Sounds logical, but it doesn'twork.
(33:42):
We have to love ourself first,absolutely a psychological
requirement you have to loveyourself first and remember to
have fun, because most peopleput love into that second
category, just emotion, and yeah, that's one of them.
We don't ignore that.
That's a very important one,but it's not more important than
the other four.
We can't just rely on thatemotion and so if we have a good
(34:02):
relationship, you've probablygot emotional connection, you've
probably got some practicalitygoing for yourself, you might
even have some fun going in yourlife, but you might be missing
some of these others like grief,hold you back or self-love.
Identify what's missing andmove to that great level and if
you're struggling with that, asI said, get some help with that.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Love.
That.
That makes complete sense to me, for absolutely or you've been
spending most of your career,most of your adult life sounds
like counseling and leadingothers, and some would say
that's offering advice and wordsof wisdom.
So I have a different take onthis next question for you, and
that's you obviously must havehad somebody or a book or
something that has been aninfluence and made a difference
(34:46):
in your life, and so my questionfor you is what has been the
best piece of advice that you'vebeen given that's still serving
you today?
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Oh, gosh, there's so many.
Wow, that's going to be a toughone to pick.
I think some of the best adviceI ever heard was let it play
out, because we sometimes getcaught so much in the struggles
of the moment that we don't justtake time to look and see where
we're headed and to make somegood decisions.
(35:14):
We get so wrapped up in thismoment and this idea of let it
play out, see how life is goingand make decisions as you go.
It takes a while sometimes toget where you want to go, and
that's okay.
Let it play out, work at it,make some decisions.
Don't try to make everythinggood instantly, don't try to fix
(35:36):
everything instantly.
And I think that was great forme, because I am a guy that
thinks I should get the answerand find the answer and put the
answer in place, and that may beavailable.
As I said, I think the fivecomponents of love are the
answer, and find the answer andput the answer in place, and
that may be available.
As I've said, I think the fivecomponents of love are the
answer.
Love is the answer and the fivecomponents are how to practice
love.
But let it play out, practiceit, let it formulate in your
(35:58):
life, develop in your life anddevelop in your relationships.
I think if we take a breaksometimes and don't try to fix
everything instantly but take alonger view of letting things
develop and putting a practicein place and seeing where that
goes, I think that's helped me alot and I think that would help
a lot of people if we just tooka breath and took our time.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Completely agree.
Just let it play out.
Sometimes we do.
I'm not that guy as well.
I just got to figure it all outand be on top of it and
managing it and but not reallyallowing it to actually just
flourish and grow and change,and so thank you so much for
that advice, mark.
Of everything that we spokeabout today, maybe there was
something we didn't get a chanceto touch on, what would be a
takeaway you'd like ourlisteners to have?
Speaker 3 (36:46):
listeners to have.
Well, the biggest takeaway andwe did touch on it but I want
people to know that love is alearned skill set, particularly
if you have been through adivorce, if you've come through
a dysfunctional family, ifyou've been through some sort of
trauma, if you're questioningwhether love really exists or
can exist for you.
It is a learned skill set.
If we keep going back to thatunderstanding it's not luck,
it's not fate, it's not mystery.
(37:07):
It is a learned skill set thatwe can put into place.
I think that changes the wholegame of life.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Love that, love that.
Well, my friend, thank you somuch for being on the show today
and spending time with us andhelping us learn how to transfer
in love from just somethingthat happens to learning it as a
skill, so we can really buildhealthy relationships, thriving
relationships, not just at home,but in our personal life, our
work and all other parts of ourlives.
So if men are interested ingetting a hold of you and
(37:36):
participating in your work, whatwould be the best way for them
to do that?
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Go to my website.
It's markahickscom.
Make sure you get my middleinitial in there, markahickscom.
Make sure you get my middleinitial in there, markahickscom.
You can order my book.
There's an easy link there todo that.
You can get to my podcast, theLearning Love podcast.
I have my own podcast where Italk about the lessons I teach
in my book and also there isnewsletter and there's a contact
(38:01):
form.
I do speaking engagements,workshops, coaching, so if I can
be of help in some way, there'sa contact form there.
Let me know how I could be ofservice.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Absolutely, and Mark's book's coming out this
June, so make sure that you havean opportunity to get it and
get a hold of it.
It's always going to be afantastic book and I'll make
sure that wherever Mark is onsocial media and his website,
we're going to have those notesin today's episode.
Once again, just want to saythank you so much, mark, for
being on the show.
Love the conversation.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Oh, my pleasure.
I enjoyed it as well, thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Thank you for listening to the Revolutionary
man podcast.
Are you ready to own yourdestiny, to become more the man
you are destined to be?
Join the brotherhood that isthe Awakened man at
theawakendmannet and startforging a new destiny today.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.