May 9, 2025 • 51 mins
Let me know your thoughts on the show and what topic you would like me to discuss next.
Through faith, emotional healing, and spiritual alignment, we can break free from past wounds and embrace a future of love and inner peace.
• Understanding the three inner voices: wounded child, protector, and true self
• Pain transforms into purpose when we're awake enough to see the lessons before us
• Unresolved emotional wounds gather in our "bucket" and get triggered in current relationships
• The protector develops to keep us safe but can become destructive in adult relationships
• Learning to speak for all parts of yourself rather than becoming controlled by them
• Two principles that can restore any relationship: repentance and forgiveness
• Leading with grace before speaking truth maximizes the chance of being heard
• Men need the love and blessing of other men to fully love their partners
• Triggers are opportunities to heal parts that deserve love, not threats to avoid
If you're ready to take control and live with purpose and become the man your family, community and future needs you to be, then I challenge you to start today. Go to membersbeawakenedman.net and begin your journey by taking the integrity challenge, because the only thing standing between you and the life you're capable of is the decision to take that first step.
Key moments in this episode:
04:39 The Hero's Journey: Overcoming Personal Battles
11:31 Understanding the Voices Within
23:52 Healing Emotional Wounds: A Path to Self-Love
27:40 Exploring Relationship Challenges
28:24 Healing Broken Marriages
35:52 Effective Communication Techniques
38:11 Managing Emotional Triggers
41:27 Grace and Truth in Relationships
48:26 Final Thoughts and Takeaways
How to reach Dr Dean and Hollykem:
Website: https://www.ihaveavoice.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/deanhollykemsunseri/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dean-sunseri-b918a278/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@IHaveAVoice1212
Book: A Roadmap to the Soul: A Practical Guide to Love, Compassion, and Inner Peace
Thanks for listening to the Revolutionary Man Podcast. If you want more information about our programs, use the links below to check us out. It could be the step that changes your life.
Want to be a guest on The Revolutionary Man Podcast? Send Alain Dumonceaux a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/revolutionarymanpodcast
👉To join our movement:
⛰The Integrity Challenge
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
You know, life can sometimes feel like a relentless
race, trying to mendrelationships, overcome personal
battles and rediscover ourpurpose.
But what if the answers we seearen't external but buried deep
within?
Today, we're going to unlockthe power of emotional and
spiritual healing.
Prepare to uncover theinterplay of faith, love and
inner growth, how it cantransform pain into peace and
(00:27):
disconnection into profoundconnection.
So this episode isn't justabout recovery.
It's about living fully,finding freedom and experiencing
a soulful transformation.
Now, before we dive intotoday's topic, let's take a
moment and talk about somethingthat could change your life.
We all know how hard it is tostay true to ourselves in a
world that constantly pulls usin different directions.
(00:49):
The pressure to provide, toperform and persevere can leave
us feeling disconnected, likewe're drifting further from the
man we want to be.
And if you found yourselffrustrated and stuck and unsure
of how to bridge the gap betweenthe life you have and the life
you want, then let me introduceyou to Living With Integrity.
This is more than a program.
(01:09):
It's a roadmap fortransformation, and you're going
to realign your actions withyour values, rebuild meaningful
connections and create a legacythat truly matters.
So if you're ready to takecontrol and live with purpose
and become the man your family,community and future needs you
to be, then I'm going tochallenge you to start today.
Just go tomembersbeawakenedmannet and
begin your journey by taking theintegrity challenge, because
(01:33):
the only thing standing betweenyou and the life you're capable
of is decision to take thatfirst step.
And with that, let's get on.
With today's episode, let's geton with today's episode.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
The average man today is sleepwalking through life,
many never reaching their truepotential, let alone ever
crossing the finish line toliving a purposeful life.
Yet the hunger still exists,albeit buried amidst his
cluttered mind, misguidedbeliefs and values that no
longer serve him.
It's time to align yourself forgreatness.
(02:06):
It's time to become arevolutionary man.
Stay strong, my brother.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Welcome everyone to the Revolutionary man Podcast.
I'm the founder of the Wickedman Movement and your host, Alan
DeMonso.
How often do you find yourselfmaking a mistake, looking
towards external solutions forwhat, deeply, are internal
challenges?
And how can you recognize thischange of trajectory for our
lives?
And what would it take for youto heal your emotional wounds
(02:37):
and reconnect with your soul ina way that renews your
relationship purpose?
And you know, healing isn'tjust a destination.
It's a deeply personal andtransformative journey, and by
confronting emotional wounds andrekindling faith, the seeking
of soulful connections, we cancreate, rewrite our narratives.
And so today we're going toexplore how that profound
(02:59):
process of healing and spiritualalignment can empower anyone to
break free from the past andembrace the future of love and
inner peace.
And with that let me introducemy guests, Dr Dean and Holly.
Kemps and Sari are co authors ofa roadmap to the soul.
It's a practical guide to love,compassion and inner peace, and
they are experts in personaltransformation with over 30
(03:22):
years of experience Been marriedsince 1991 and they help
individuals and couples overcometrauma, break self-destructive
patterns and find purpose.
Dr Sonseri is a licensedprofessional counselor with
advanced degrees in practicalministry and mental health
counseling, specializing inemotional and spiritual health,
and Holly Kamm, a certified lifecoach, draws from her recovery
(03:44):
journey to inspire others towardfreedom and resilience.
And together these powerfulcouples share with us their
practical wisdom and heartfeltinsights that make them
compelling guests for an episodeI'm sure you're truly going to
enjoy.
Welcome to the show, Dr Deanand Holly Kemp.
How are things, my friends?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Thank you.
So good to be here.
That's so good.
I love the awakening aspect ofAwakening Men, because we've
been doing this for years andone of the characteristics we
see when people really take toit and grow is there literally
is an awakening, there's anunderstanding at a higher level,
and we love talking aboutgrowth, we love to see men go to
another level, so we're excitedto be here.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I'm so grateful to have you on and, as we were
saying, as we're getting ontotoday's show, it's always great
to have couples, especiallycouples that speak to the type
of topics we're going to touchon, just upon marriage, but also
this deeply transformative workthat both of you have done.
And my first opening questionfor all my guests is to talk a
little bit about their hero'squest or their hero's journeys.
(04:45):
Tell us about how your pathscrossed and how that experience
shaped you into the couple youare today and the work that
you're doing.
I'll start with you, holly Kim.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
Yeah, hi.
What's interesting is yesterdayI was sober for 42 years.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Oh, congrats.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
I know the journey of coming back from addiction and
alcoholism and dysfunction Grewup in a dysfunctional family.
Who doesn't?
Because we just don't know howto deal with our emotions.
It's not like a lesson we gottaught in elementary school.
So through that process ofworking on myself, going from
(05:20):
self-hatred to self-love, and onthat journey I met Dean and I
had already been divorced andout of that marriage for a long
time and as I met Dean we becamereally good friends and started
to really dig into where wewere at the time.
And we both were on this reallypowerful journey of discovering
(05:44):
, like, what did God want for us, who were we, what was our
destiny, and start to really diginto that.
At that time I was a boardcertified substance abuse
counselor and through thatbecame a life coach and an
ordained minister and in all ofthat 36 years of being in the
field of really what I do ishelp people love themselves and
(06:08):
that what I brought to the tablewas not only the educational
part but it was actually whatreally did work on me so I could
hopefully have a healthy,loving relationship.
So I could have a healthy,loving relationship with myself
and with God and with otherhuman beings.
So the journey of just diggingdeep, really facing the traumas
(06:35):
without fear today.
But there was a time when I didface those traumas I was
trembling.
When I did face those traumas Iwas trembling, but today,
because I've learned a system, alifestyle that works, I don't
(06:56):
face it with fear anymore, Iface it with joy, because I know
what's on the other side For us.
We've been married for 33 yearsand we work on ourselves still
today, after 42 years ofsobriety.
And one day now I can stillwork on myself.
I just can't go.
Oh, I've arrived.
I don't know when you arrive, Iguess when I cross over.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
But I'm not afraid.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
I'm not afraid of it anymore, which is beautiful.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Love that.
What about you, Dr Dean?
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Yeah, I love the term the hero's journey.
I think we all are called on asignificant journey and I think
mine began at 16 years old whereI was really made a commitment
to follow His voice, the voiceof my spirit, and eventually led
(07:51):
me to the seminary because inCatholicism that's like the
place to go.
But there was a certain pointwhere I never lost that calling,
but I did lose the attractionto the seminary.
You get real close to theCatholic Church and you see the
wonderful things and you see thewonderful things and you see
the underbelly and there was alot of things that occurred that
I decided to transition out andit was a really difficult
(08:13):
transition and there was also alot of turmoil in my family.
At that time my parents'marriage was on the rocks.
My dad's drinking had escalatedto levels that were a lot
higher than before.
We're a very tolerant culture inNew Orleans in terms of alcohol
but it just escalated to aplace where it was really
becoming a problem and in themidst of all, that was one of
(08:34):
the lowest areas in times and Iwas transitioning out of the
seminary and it was at that timethat I met Holly Kim and I
always say, the priest met thejunkie.
But the thing we had in commonwe were both really committed to
the same journey, even thoughwe were coming from I was coming
from the seminary, she wascoming from the streets and we
were hungry, just really hungry,to do whatever needs to be done
(08:57):
emotionally, psychologically,spiritually to walk in the
destiny that we believed we werecalled to do.
And eventually I got intocounseling and got into doing
work with life coaching.
But I think that, looking back,part of the hero's journey for
myself was that the deepesthurts became my deepest
(09:20):
treasures, and so what I mean bythat is just dealing with the
alcohol issues.
My dad made a very courageousdecision when I was probably
about 21, 20, 21 years old to goto treatment.
He's been sober ever since andhe's 87 years old, and in that
midst of that we learned a lotof things about alcoholism.
(09:42):
I made a commitment to stopdrinking myself because I could
see some unhealthy patterns, andthat was the most shameful
thing in my early adulthood lateteenagers, early adulthood but
it was transformed.
It was going through thegauntlet of an awakening,
literally, and now, for 35 plusyears, I've helped hundreds, if
(10:05):
not thousands, of individuals,families, that same thing.
So all of a sudden it's becomea treasure.
It's become from shame tobrought to the light to now.
It's the way I've served peoplefor so many years and we've
done that together.
Really We've been a partnershipin that and it's just been
(10:26):
really good that's outstanding.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
What I love about both your stories is really it
is I made a daughter to notehere it's really about pain to
purpose.
Yeah, we find our purposethrough our pain if we're
willing to be awake enough tosee the lessons that are being
put before us.
And you know, what I liked iswhat the question you asked
yourself there, holly kim, yousaid is what did god want for us
(10:51):
?
And as men, we tend to notbecause we get.
We are raised for the most partin that we need to be this
provider, this protectorpresiding over everything that
we think we need to.
This is a one-man showprotector presiding over
everything that we think we needto do.
This is a one man show that allthe weights that we are Atlas
with the weight of the world onour shoulders and we forget that
there's something much greatercalling us to do this work and
(11:15):
we have to be willing to do that.
And so I think that's what Ireally liked about this getting
into your book, a Roadmap to theSoul, because you talk about,
or use this analogy of thisvoices within and you have the
sign behind you there the I havea voice, and I like that idea.
So let's talk a little bitabout who, what and where these
voices are and how they'reimpacting our daily lives.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
Yeah, I'll go there.
And one thing I want to say,alan, is that I really
appreciate your commitment tothis journey for men, that
you're holding their handsthrough this, because, as a
woman, I find my women that I'veworked with they don't always
get how difficult it is to bethat man Like you're the one
(11:59):
that asks us to go out, you'rethe one that takes the lead and
you're the one that holds mostof the rejection, because we're
the ones that go no, no, thankyou.
And it's like how many no's doyou get?
I can't even imagine.
You know what I'm saying Ifyou're even brave enough to ask.
But just in all the no's thatyou did, do you know, as a woman
(12:20):
, I want to say I'm sorry forall the women that didn't get it
and I want to say thank you forasking.
I just think it's reallyimportant.
So in that just side note, I'mjust excited about this because
I love men.
I think they're awesome humanbeings.
I love my husband In this.
What happened was I see inthrees, I am dyslexic and 80,
(12:44):
and it's my gift.
And so in pictures, I see inthrees, I am dyslexic and 80,
and it's my gift.
And so in pictures, in pictures.
I see in pictures.
So words are not the greatestfor me.
So when you were giving yourmonologue and sharing all this,
it was beautiful because it wasso beautiful words, but it was
painting a picture.
And when someone would come tome or when they would talk to me
, when I was on the other sideof the sofa, I would see three
(13:05):
parts of myself that there was apart of me that was an addict,
that was hardcore, was aprotector, that would not, that
doesn't want me to get hurt andwould not take risks Okay, in
certain arenas, and sometimes itwould take too many risks in
other arenas.
And then there was a part of methat was very wounded by all
(13:26):
the traumas that I had done tomyself or it had happened to me.
And then there was my true selfthat wanted to be free, who I
really was, which I wasterrified that there wasn't a
big part there anymore.
She got lost in the midst ofthe trauma and the protection
and as I, that's how I startedto figure out what they were
(13:48):
asking me to do, what I neededto do, cause they kept saying
Holly, kim, you got to loveyourself and you got to quit.
You have to quit beating onyourself.
And I'm thinking what are theytalking about?
But finally I could see thatthere were these three parts of
me in the movie.
Sometimes they have the littleangel on one shoulder and the
little devil on the othershoulder.
What I could see was that therewas this true self that was that
(14:11):
felt guilty about the part ofme that did things that were
against my own values.
But what was in between thatwas this wound of not being able
to take nothing else in thebucket Like that bucket of
wounds were so large that mytrue self couldn't handle it
anymore.
So my protector came out andhelped me.
(14:33):
So when I would work withpeople, when they would speak to
me, I would categorize whenthey would speak, I would say
that is their wounded child,that is their protector, there's
their true self.
And as I would speak back tothem and say, look at it like
this, and I would say that istheir wounded child, that is
their protector, there's theirtrue self.
And as I would speak back tothem and say, look at it like
this, and I would show them andthat I wanted, what I wanted
from them was to have a voice onall three levels.
(14:53):
I wanted their wounds to tellme what, the way they saw it,
how it felt, what happened.
Then I wanted their protectorto tell me how they handled it
and how that worked for them inthe beginning and then how it
became their enemy.
And then who were they?
Who were they really?
And through that process?
(15:14):
When Dean can tell you about hisside of that, when we met he
had his master's in theology andthen what are you going to do
with that?
So he went to become acounselor, get his master's in
counseling.
And he's Holly Kemp.
What I'm learning and what youdo and your people they look
like people are going to getbetter, right, he said, through
the lessons.
Right, he said, but what you'redoing?
Your people are coming out ofthe office and they're getting
(15:36):
better and they're getting theirlives.
So teach me what you do.
So that's how we came up withthe whole concept of allowing
someone to see it and be able tohave a have a language for the
inner life.
Because it was like if someonesaid to me Holly, my kidneys
hurt.
I have never seen a kidney, I'mnot medical at all, but in my
(15:58):
mind I had a vision of what akidney looked like and I could
have compassion.
But for the inner life, for theemotional life, the spiritual,
there was no real good words.
So you could say something andI could miss it, and if I missed
it as your coach or as yourtherapist, you could really hurt
yourself and then you could endup in a divorce, you could end
(16:20):
up drinking suicide, I don'tknow.
So it was like I have to.
Really, my intention in myheart was I really wanted to be
able to hear what you weresaying and that I could speak it
back and we could learn to loveall of that.
Yeah, so that's where it reallycame out of, and then teaching
it to Dean.
Then we came up with the moreconcreteness of it.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah, dean, what about you?
Anything you want to add on tothat?
Speaker 3 (16:45):
of it.
Yeah, dean, what about you?
Anything you want to add on tothat?
I think that what happened waswe were on a honeymoon and one
of the things I asked Holly Kim,I said we were conditioning.
I said you know what'simportant to you, what would you
like?
And she said I want to write abook.
And I said it's hard for yousince you're dyslexic and you're
not good with words, and shesaid that's why I have you.
So really, when she began to seethe, I saw the brilliance of
(17:07):
the simple brilliance of whatshe was seeing, and so we put a
language to that and it's just alanguage to understand the
inner life and it made a lot ofsense.
It was originally applied a lotto addiction, because it's easy
to see somebody struggling withaddiction.
Yes, a part of me wants to usea part of me, doesn't want to
use a part of me, is afraid, orI feel rejected.
(17:29):
I want to sedate, but I don'twant to sedate because it causes
more problems.
So we're talking in all threevoices, but by by giving them
voices, then it helped theperson identify those things.
And when it goes back to reallyself-love we all have are
called on our journey and that'sour true self-calling.
(17:50):
But the biggest blocks of thoseis our wounds and our coping
behaviors.
So if we just try to empowerour true self-vision and we
don't deal with the other two,it makes it really difficult to
really fully pursue what we'recalled to do.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Yeah, that makes so much sense and the note I wrote
down here is a voice on allthree levels and in the men's
work that we do, that's some ofthat.
We call that the shadow workhere, and it's about having
giving the men courage to lookat that part of themselves that
they're not crazy about, right,that we tend to suppress, that
tend to.
You know, holly Kim, you talkedabout the number of no's.
(18:30):
You know that we get the amountof rejection, yes, and
depending on where we are from amental state, we may be using
that as fuel to move us forwardand then at other times in our
lives it can feel more like abattering ram and then it just
pushes us down and so we don'tlearn how to express, and that's
where I wanted to really takeus to.
The next part really is, look,talking about your develop, your
transformational process,because really you're what
(18:51):
you're I hear you're saying isyou're working with people
between the emotional andspiritual growth, and so let's
talk a little bit about whatthat looks like and how you're
helping folks do that.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Yeah, yeah, so really , really, the way I approach
spirituality is very simple, andcertainly it's in the
Judeo-Christian tradition.
But really, jesus said thethree most important
relationships is the verticalit's a relationship with God,
then relationship with neighborand to relationship with self,
and his primary charge is thatwe need to grow in a loving
(19:24):
relationship with those threerelationships.
So, in my own simple mind,anything that helps us grow in
any of those three relationshipsis good, is healthy, is
life-giving.
Anything that destroys thosethree relationships is bad or
unhealthy or, a theological term, would be evil.
And so then, when you look atit that way, it simplifies
(19:48):
things.
Now, religion's the institutionthat's supposed to help those
three relationships grow in apositive way, and sometimes it
does a really good job andsometimes it doesn't.
And so we begin to separate,okay, our religious experience
from our calling, and what we'venoticed is that when you grow
in one of those relationships ina positive way, it impacts the
(20:09):
other two.
So if I learned to love my owngrief, then I'm going to be able
to learn to love the grief inyou and I'm going to have a
better understanding of God.
If I'm stuck in my pain, theopposite is true I won't be able
to handle your pain and I'llprobably have resentment towards
God.
So the point being is that anymovement in one area ripples and
(20:33):
impacts the other two.
So when we're dealing withpeople, it's not a proselytizing
thing that someone comes in.
We just say we want to knowwhere you are right now on those
three relationships and we'regoing to give some attention to
helping it grow.
We're going to, we're going towater that, and a lot of our
work is starts off with therelationship with yourself.
(20:54):
Yeah, when I begin to theshadow work, I work as a very
much kind of a Carl Jungian type.
Things is is given names to theparts.
We just have three parts, butgiving names to the parts,
making some of the unconsciousstuff more conscious, owning it,
taking responsibility for it,acknowledging some of the ugly
(21:14):
thoughts and just saying, okay,I'm not going to give you power,
but I understand that you wantto slap your wife right now,
it's all right.
It brings me back to early in mymarriage just to illustrate it.
I remember my Holly cam had twojobs.
She was working a lot andreally neglecting our time
together and I was like, okay,you need to cut back on your
work because you're not beingavailable as my wife and this
(21:37):
and that.
So I'm right.
And given her the assertivecommunication.
And so she came home one day ona Friday she said honey, I took
all day, the rest of the dayoff today, all day Saturday and
all day Sunday.
We can spend the whole weekendtogether.
And at that moment, the woundedpart oh my God, you're going to
be smothered all weekend.
(21:58):
You're not going to be able todo anything.
And then my protector was likelie to her, tell her you got a
golf game on Saturday.
And true self was like I get tospend time with my wife.
Yeah, at that moment I'mdealing with these three, three
energies, right, one isterrified, one is wanting to lie
(22:19):
and another part's excited andI'm the one that asked her to
take the time off.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
So you know I need to be able to manage that.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
I need to manage that , and if I don't and I become
the fear, then it's not.
That result's not good.
If I slide to her, the result'snot good.
But if I'm able to translatethat and that's what we want to
do is help individuals translateand say look, I'm so glad
you're able to spend the wholeweekend together and I'm really
excited about that.
And a part of me was afraidthat I'm going to be controlled
(22:50):
the whole weekend and scaredabout that, and another part of
me actually wanted to lie to youjust to create space.
If I need some space, I'll askfor it, and then it creates a
moment of intimacy andconnection, as opposed to didn't
you ask me to take time off andnow you want to play golf and
it turns into something youdon't want to happen.
So, yeah, it's just a way tomanage the inner life so it can
(23:13):
bring connection as opposed toisolation and disconnection that
makes so much.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
I'm laughing with you here because I can totally
relate to that and I'm sureeveryone listening to this
episode there'll be lots of usmen.
This is what I asked for andall those emotions we go through
.
But really this is the nextquestion for you, Holly Kim.
It's really what I'm hearingyou talking about is really
helping people deal with theseunresolved emotional pain,
because that's really what'sstunting our growth from a
(23:39):
spiritual perspective and reallybeing on that journey and in
our relationship.
So talk a little bit about thatpiece, about this unresolved
emotional pieces that we keeptaking with us.
Speaker 4 (23:51):
Yeah, in the old days they used to call it baggage.
I brought this suitcase to themarriage and I didn't tell you
about.
And then something happens andit opens up and all this stuff
comes out.
And in that what happens isthat when we get wounded, let's
just say my grandmother dies,right, and.
But also that means my mother'smother died, my father's mother
(24:15):
in law died and all my siblingsand cousins and family lost
somebody they love.
So let's just say there's athousand pounds of love that
needs to help me heal from mygrandmother dying.
However, everybody needs athousand pounds of love, okay,
so maybe there's only a hundredto go around for each person,
(24:36):
just because, just because Notbecause nobody doesn't want to
do it, but we all lost the samething, do it, but we all lost
the same thing.
So in that what happens is that900 pounds that still deserves
love gets put in this bucketwhich we call the wounded child.
So then life goes on andthere's another loss and that
(24:59):
deserves 500 pounds of love andI'm only able to accomplish a
hundred pounds of love for it.
So I have another 400 that goesin that bucket.
That needs love.
You do that over a life, right?
That all of this stuff gets putin there.
It's not that I don't knowabout it.
It's not that I wouldn't takecare of it.
It's not that the people thatlove me wouldn't help me.
(25:21):
However, there's things in herethat just never got the love
that deserved.
Okay.
So instead of me having to beateverybody up because they
didn't know how to do it, it'sjust there's stuff inside of me
that needs love and deserves it.
So what happens is when we soour protector takes over and
figures out how to manage thatextra pounds of love that was
(25:45):
deserved or sedated.
We got to sedate it.
We got to pretend it's notthere, we got to put the mask on
, do whatever we got to do to befunctioning in society.
But this thing is heavy, sothis thing is trying to take
over, and what happens is thatwhen we get triggered and the
trigger, everybody's just stopthe trigger or let me get rid of
the person that's triggering me.
Really, what's happening is,when we get triggered and the
trigger, everybody's just stopthe trigger or let me get rid of
(26:05):
the person that's triggering me.
Really, what's happening is,when I get triggered, it is an
opportunity for me to go in andlove some of this stuff Because,
let's say, your grandmotherdied.
You're my good friend, I go toher funeral.
Now I am crying a little bitfor your grandmother and you,
but now my wounds are crying formy grandmother.
(26:29):
As an adult, I have theopportunity to love this and now
I have opportunity to maybe goto one of my siblings or
somebody else and we can havethat moment of loving each other
through this wound.
But what we've been taught, orwhat I was taught, was shh, that
was 20 years ago.
We're not gonna talk about that.
(26:49):
We're not gonna make anybodyelse sad.
Shh, we're not gonna talk aboutthat.
Make it go away.
Make it go away.
So, all of a sudden, myprotector is as big as my wounds
.
So if my protector is 100,000pounds strong, my protector is
100 hundred thousand poundsstrong.
But every time I get theopportunity to love some of this
stuff that deserved it, myprotector gets smaller, my wound
(27:14):
gets smaller, my protector getssmaller and there's more room
for me to continue to come out.
And as I learned to do that andthen I learned to trigger
myself, like on a podcast likethis, you're listening, you have
that opportunity, or you go togroups or a men's movement or
whatever.
You're taking the opportunityto trigger yourself to let those
(27:37):
things come out so you can loveit.
So the part of you that keepsyou from being in another
relationship or being aworkaholic or drinking too much
you can, that will get smallertoo.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I love that, and what I really appreciate about what
you're talking about here isthese are all topics that we
Well, we touch on here withinour men's group mentorship group
.
We call it the Band of Brothers, and one of the things we
talked a lot about last year wason relationships, and
relationships not just in ourmarriages, but the relationships
we have with ourselves, withour siblings, with authority,
(28:14):
and all of these little aspectsof relationship.
We have set different types oftriggers for us, and how we
react to it starts to show up inour key relationships, and so I
really wanted to focus now onfolks that are struggling with,
in a what we would call a brokenmarriage, things that they
brought this childhood baggagewith them.
(28:35):
They have triggers that arehappening, and yet they're.
They struggle individually andcan't seem to connect.
In your work, do you have aprocess that helps people go
from this point of the marriagebeing broken to getting on a
path to reigniting love andpassion for themselves?
Speaker 3 (28:52):
yes, yeah, we definitely do part of my
practice I do.
Probably 60, probably 70couples and really the when
people come to me there there'sbrokenness on a greater or
lesser degree, and so that'swhat we need to delve into.
And if you have, if each personalways say can you help us?
(29:17):
So what are you?
What are the results that youget?
Can you guarantee results, kindof thing.
I said I can guarantee you thatI'll give you everything you
need to restore yourrelationship.
The question is, are both ofyou all committed to that?
One might be committed, theother might not, another may be
partially committed, but there'sa roadmap to restoring any
(29:37):
relationship and I've seen it inthe most egregious hurts that
have occurred.
Certainly, infidelity isusually one of the deepest hurts
that can occur when it'srevealed and I say look, we can
restore this if you're bothwilling.
And it's not an intellectualprocess, it's an emotional
process.
So we're going to have to teachyou how to manage your emotions
(29:58):
, what to do, and also so webring them on a journey.
But we're going to have toteach you how to manage your
emotions, what to do, and allthat, so we bring them on a
journey.
But if we had to sum it up.
There's two principles that canrestore any relationship and
there's spiritual principlesthat have deep psychological
application.
One of the principles isrepentance, and repentance is
(30:19):
often thought about me repentingbefore God, which is a
dimension of it, but I'm talkingabout the horizontal dimension
of it.
I define repentance as to havea heartfelt sorrow for the
things that I have done to hurtyou, to take full responsibility
for it, to say it, look in youreyes and say it, and to make a
(30:41):
commitment to learn to do itdifferently.
So it's taking responsibility.
For my part, I always say tocouples I say look, if Holly Kim
symbolically slaps me threetimes and I slap her once and
then she slaps me three moretimes, in my own mind it's okay,
she's got six in, I got one.
She deserves at least two orthree, but it's how we think.
(31:02):
But what repentance looks likeis that it was wrong for me to
slap you that one time and I'msorry and I'm going to work on
learning to do it differently.
That's her job to deal with herslaps.
And if I can get the couple tofocus on their own actions,
reactions and behavior and takeresponsibility for that both of
(31:27):
them then we're going to getlots of movement.
So one of the exercises we dois that we have them write down
what are those coping behaviorsthat have hurt your partner and
I have them sit down on the sofaand look at each other in the
eyes and I say I apologize for,and I coach them and I say fill
in the blank.
And they go through it.
And then, after they go throughit, I say what do you see in
(31:50):
your partner's eyes?
I see sadness, I see hurt, Isee anger, I see this and
they're validating that.
And then I reverse it, I sayokay, I want you to look at your
partner I apologize for andfill in the blank, and you
wouldn't believe the intensityof tension that starts to get
(32:12):
released just in that verysimple exercise.
And the next principle isforgiveness, and forgiveness is
very much misunderstood.
It's not giving a person a passfor what they've done in the
past and saying it was okay.
No, it's recognizing that youhave done certain behaviors that
(32:32):
have hurt me and I carry thehurt in my heart from that and
I'm willing to lay down thathurt on the altar and ask it to
be removed.
And so forgiveness is really awillingness to let go of hurt.
It's not saying it was okay.
In fact, you probably wouldn'thave been hurt if it was okay.
(32:53):
It's taken for granted.
It was a violation on somelevel.
And what I teach people is thatforgiveness is not for the other
person, it's for you.
That if I have a friend, joepunches me in the face and he
goes about his business and Ithink about the next day man, I
can't believe Joe punched me inthe face.
(33:14):
And the next day one time, Ithink about man, my jaw is hurt
and I'm going to get him.
And the next day I think aboutit.
The next 30 days I think aboutit one time a day.
After 30 days, how many timeshas he punched me?
31, right, I've recycledthrough it over and over again.
I'm mad as a hornet.
But if I was able to get thatoffense out of my heart on the
(33:36):
third day.
Then I saved myself I had fourpunches instead of 31.
Third day then I saved myself Ihad four punches instead of 31.
And so it's recognizing thatforgiveness is a principle that
needs to be practiced.
Now, if both couples actuallypractice that and then bring
them through an exercise withthat look in each other's eyes,
okay, I forgive you for or I'mwilling to forgive you for.
(33:59):
Sometimes it's just I'm willing, you for or I'm willing to
forgive you, for Sometimes it'sjust I'm willing, I'm willing to
forgive you for.
And then I do the same thing.
Look in their eyes, say that,what do you see in their eyes?
What's this?
And we process.
And when we just keep nurturingthose things the
self-responsibility and theforgiveness, the repentance and
(34:19):
forgiveness we begin to restoreanything.
And that's the roadmap toreally restoration.
There's always other issuesinvolved.
We need to work oncommunication skills, we got to
work on meeting each other'sneeds, we got to do all sorts of
things.
But when we start gettingmovement in that first
repentance and forgiveness.
Because it's interesting whenyou look at it spiritually,
(34:40):
ellen is that Jesus said.
He said repent, for the kingdomof heaven is at hand.
So in my own view, what he wassaying is that look, heaven is
around us.
But if you practice thisprinciple of repentance, it'll
usher heaven into this situation.
And it's the same withforgiveness.
You practice forgiveness, it'llusher forgiveness into the
(35:05):
situation, heaven into thesituation.
But I also say it's your choice, because the opposite is true
too.
If practice, never takeresponsibility for your behavior
, never forgive, and I promiselots of hell in a relationship.
It's going to be there, right,and so we actually impact the
atmosphere of our relationship.
Never forgive and I promiselots of hell in a relationship.
It's going to be there right,and so we actually impact the
(35:29):
atmosphere of our relationshipby the attitudes that we adopt
to choose to interact with ourpartner.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
That makes so much sense I was just thinking about.
I think you know, for me, god'salways with me and, depending
on how well I want to listen,sometimes it's just a nudge and
I get the message, and othertimes I need a two by four to
really understand what'shappening.
And I think that's what you'resaying and so you're also next
to you, holly Kim, I really whatI hear Dr Dean talking about is
(35:58):
really helping couples develophealthy communication styles and
help so they can navigate this.
So tell us a little bit abouthow your work evolves around
that and helping couples reallylearn how to communicate
properly.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
Yeah with us.
We teach them the process ofthe roadmap and how to use their
voices.
So, let's say I have anindividual, that's the partner
didn't come or they're not in arelationship like that, okay, so
they're coming just to work onthemselves.
So the main thing that I'mdoing is teaching them how to
speak in the voices withoutsaying them Okay.
(36:28):
So a part of me is really hurt.
This really reminds me of whenI was seven and this happened,
and a part of me really wants torun away.
I don't even want to deal withthis.
However, what I need to say isthis but for them, they know
it's their wound, they know thatit's reminding them of a
(36:50):
certain situation.
They've gotten triggered.
They realize that theirprotector wants to run away, and
so they speak for their wholeself, and then they take it to
where they need to say somethinghealthy.
Now, if it's a couple what?
And they're both all doing thevoices right?
They'll say like.
For me, I'll say Ethie, which Icall my wounded self, right
(37:11):
Cause we name and claim them.
My Ethie is very hurt and Ifeel like she feels like when
this happened to her when shewas seven with her dad, and then
the example is he never showedup.
So when you didn't call me anddidn't show up, not only did I
feel the pain of you, but shealso all of the pain from her
(37:33):
came out as well when hewouldn't call me.
And then what my protectorwanted to do was divorce you.
She's already divorced you.
She's already seen the lawyerand signed the papers because
she's I'm not dealing with thisagain.
I've already dealt with this mywhole life.
I'm not dealing with this again.
However, I know that you loveme and I know that something
(37:55):
must have happened that wasgotten the way that you did not
show up.
So I really need to be open towhatever happened, because I
know you love me and I love you.
So what we do is we teach how tospeak for those parts instead
of becoming those parts.
So the work you do is reallyunderstanding.
How does that part see theworld, hear the world feel.
(38:19):
How does this part want toreact to the world?
Want to run away from the world?
Hear the world feel.
How does this part want toreact to the world, want to run
away from the world, and what itwants to do?
But I speak for them and I makeit like a part of me, but I, we
name and claim it okay.
And then holly come, I get tosay that this is what I want and
I know you love me, I love youand I don't.
(38:40):
I don't want to run away, eventhough this part does.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
And the awareness of it depowers.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
Oh, it's so, depowers it, because instead of it just
ruminating and ruminating, andthen those parts take me over,
because for me the wounded childand the protector are best
friends.
The wounded child becomes thesilent partner in the
relationship and it just talksstraight to the protector and
the protectors.
I got this, and then I'm beingand not being nice and slamming
(39:07):
doors and all of that, and I'vebecome her.
And so you didn't marry her,you married me.
I told you about her, believeme, and you laughed.
You thought it was funny, right, when she acted that way.
But you don't like when sheshows up, right?
So when I understand that, thenall of a sudden, and seeing,
I've told you about all thesewounds, right, if I'm in a
(39:29):
relationship, right.
So what happens when I gettriggered?
Now you've become all thosepeople to her and I get lost in
all of that, because now you'reone of them and you already know
what happened.
Why would you become one ofthem?
So now my protector is at warwith you, if I say it or I don't
.
So once I understand that, thenall of a sudden I can separate
(39:53):
you from her and them and I cancommunicate because the person
that I married the person thatI'm in love with.
All that happened was youtriggered that stuff.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
It's interesting to see that you know you're
triggered and you become adifferent part, because here's a
person I'm married to in mycase for 33 years that I love,
that has access to everything mybank accounts, this and that
and in 3.5 seconds she goes frommy lover to my enemy.
Yeah, how does that happen?
Speaker 1 (40:28):
yeah, and what I was thinking about as holly kim was
describing that you know, formen, when that happens, we don't
know how to deal with that,right, and so that's the other
side of this piece that I wantedto just explore for a couple of
minutes is so you're in a,you're in a situation and that
part, that protector part ofyour wife has come out and she's
(40:49):
got guns a blazing and ready togo to war.
What are you recommending formen to do and how they handle
that?
Is it a I'll?
I won't, I won't hallucinate.
I'll let you tell me what youguys think, what your work does.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
I think that comes to communication right.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
And certainly when she becomes her protector, then
it elicits my own protectivesystem to kick in and that's
where the self-management comesin and learning to manage that
well.
But in terms of responding toanswer your question, the
guideline that I use is it needsto be colored by two aspects
(41:27):
grace and truth.
And what I mean by that isthere's a scripture that I had
meditated on, one.
It says when Jesus he's talkingabout, the word was full of
grace and full of truth.
Grace is to have anunconditional acceptance of a
person, of where they are atthis moment, and it's to treat
(41:47):
them with dignity, even if I'mnot being treated with dignity.
So if you're watching meinteract with somebody and they
spit in my face and I'm stillrespectful back, you might say
wow, dean, you handled thatreally gracefully right.
I'm continuing to treat youwith dignity, even if I'm not
being treated with dignity.
The second part is truth.
It means to speak how I seethings from my vantage point, as
(42:11):
honest as possible, with asmuch integrity as possible.
Now, the order is veryimportant.
You lead with grace and thenyou speak truth.
If you flip the order, you'renot going to have a good result.
If I'm late all the time andHolly Kim says you inconsiderate
(42:32):
SOB, you're always running late.
You cause all our schedules off.
It may be absolutely true, butshe's not going to get the
response that she wants from me,right.
So those two aspects andhandling a volatile situation is
so important.
You need to lead with grace andcommunicate that and then speak
(42:55):
the truth.
If you just lead with grace andyou don't speak the truth, then
you become an enabler, begin toenable unhealthy behavior.
If Holly Kim's always late andI'm just graceful and I accept
that and I don't speak the truth, then I'm enabling that
unhealthy behavior.
Speaker 4 (43:12):
And we'll blow up later.
And it'll blow up at some point, yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
So those both are very important and when you do
that, that maximizes the chancesof being heard.
So if I'm running late andHolly Kim says, dean, I love you
, and things run so smoothlywhen you're on time I know
you're really busy, I know youhave a lot on your mind and it's
(43:36):
difficult to get here on timeAll right, so that's graceful.
And then she says it reallywould be helpful if you can
start coming home on time, asyou told me that you would do.
That would make our lives somuch better.
Can you work on that?
Look, she told me that shecares about me, she understands
me, she loves me.
(43:56):
And then she hits me with thetruth Okay, honey, I'm sorry,
it's true, I'm going to work onthis kind of thing.
And does it always work?
No, but that's going tomaximize the chance.
And I think, as I evaluated thatthose two characteristics and
looked at the life of Jesus,that's why he could handle so
many volatile situations inpowerful ways.
The woman that was caught in avery active adultery was thrown
(44:19):
before him and they said sheneeds to be stoned.
And he said we'll never sendyou throw the first stone.
And they all drop their rocksand walk away.
But it's interesting.
He turns to her and he sayswoman, do they not condemn you?
And she says no.
And then he says neither do I.
Grace, there was grace.
And then he said go and don'tdo it.
(44:40):
No more Truth.
And she became one of his, hermost faithful followers, and
that's what he did.
He could have he I'm talking tojesus right, he could have said
listen, you low down, dirty,whatever you got to get your act
together.
It's like probably wouldn'thave been received that way.
(45:02):
But yeah, lead with grace, thenspeak truth yeah, and I was
gonna say another thing.
Speaker 4 (45:07):
Alan is like if my spouse is turning into a
teenager, which the protector islike a teenager and it doesn't
look good on an adult, but turninto a teenager, it's my job to
stay an adult yeah yes.
So it's like your go there,that's goal.
It's like you're in yourprotector.
You're there, I see it.
Okay, I need to stay my adultself, okay, and just stay here.
(45:31):
Let you go there.
And then, as when you'refinished, even if it's ugly,
then I can say honey, I knowthat you love me and I can see
that I have really upset you andI can see that a part of you is
furious with me and I can seethat I have really upset you and
I can see that a part of you isfurious with me.
See, I'm saying a part whichmakes sense, because he's going
(45:52):
to be like a part of me reallyis, because a part of me he does
love me, right, and I know thata part of you is really hurt
and but I do know you love me.
So I really want to hear canyou explain it to me more softly
?
Yes, and all of a sudden thatperson starts to yes, a part of
me really is, and a part of meit's a trance really, when you
(46:14):
get into your protective part.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
It's a trance.
If I had to play the worstarguments between Holly Kim and
I in a recorder back to you, I'dbe embarrassed.
I don't know who that is, andit's like a trance, like state,
that we get in.
And so I either pull you intoyour protector trance or, if I'm
able to maintain true selfwhich is a lot to be said about
(46:36):
that but if I can maintain trueself, I will actually pull you
out of your protector tranceinto your true self.
Speaker 4 (46:45):
Yeah, I was just in my mind.
Yeah, of course I see picturesJohnny Depp and Amber Heard's
relationship at the court.
I was obsessed.
I had to see it all and I wasas everything.
I had to see all three parts ofme and see everything.
But what was so sad is thatthey were two people that were
in love.
They were very wounded fromtheir lives.
(47:07):
They got wounded by each otherand their protectors came out
fighting and it was war and thedestruction that was done was
unbelievable.
What he was a lot of peopledidn't know.
He had been sober five years atcourt so he could sit there and
(47:28):
not react because his true selfhad come to the table.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (47:35):
And when he got on stand not that I'm taking it up
for either one of them, becauseboth of their protectors were
very destructive to themselvesand others, but when he got on
stand he was able to speak thetruth.
I did do that.
I did do that.
I did do that Like he told onhis protector over and over and
over, and it was like in thatprocess and he spoke of his
(47:55):
wounds, of where he came fromand what happened, and it was
like he was unfolding.
You know what I see in all ofus, and his was at a higher
destruction level.
We all have moments that areugly like that and that are
painful like that.
So when he came to the table,when the court came and he was
there, his true self showed up.
(48:17):
Yeah, 100% yeah and he was ableto expose the ugliness of it all
.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Yeah, that's good, absolutely.
What a great conversation we'vehad today.
It's just been phenomenal, butof everything that we spoke
about and maybe there wassomething we didn't get a chance
to touch on if there was onetakeaway you'd want our
listeners to have for them today, what would that be?
Speaker 4 (48:38):
and I'll start with you, holly kim yeah, what I
would say is that to all you men, you are so powerful, you are
so worth the work, that what'sinside of you is so much love to
give and so much heart toreceive, that you are a brave
person, you do things that womencould never do, and that I
(49:02):
encourage you and challenge youto take the journey of finding
out who you really are and whatGod has for you.
It's worth it.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Love it, dr Dean.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
Yeah, I was told something years and years ago
which I took to heart.
I didn't understand it at first,but it was when I was getting
married or early in my marriageto Holly Kim, and there's a guy
that said said you can't trulylove a woman like she deserves
until you're loved by other men.
And what I gleaned from that isthat if we have an emptiness
(49:35):
inside of not being blessed andloved by our fathers, our
grandfathers, the men in ourlives, then we look to get that
need filled by our wives, andit's an impossible thing to do
and at that that point I mademyself vulnerable.
Get involved with men's groups,got involved with probably a
program similar to you have andjust committed to do the
uncomfortable work and it has,it's really impacted my ability
(49:58):
to be a really good husband anda good father.
And my encouragement to menthat are listening, that are
tickled in a sense like thismakes sense.
It's to consider connectingwith you and connecting with
your program and say, look, I'mgoing to go through the
uncomfortable vulnerableness oftaking a risk because, as I get
(50:18):
blessed and loved by other men,I will become a better husband,
I'll become a better father,I'll become a better businessman
and I'll become a betterbusinessman and life will get
better.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Love that.
What a great way to wrap aconversation today.
I want to say thank you, drDean and Holly Kim, for spending
time with us today, and Ireally believe you showed us
that through faith, we cantransfer through anything, and
so if men or couples areinterested in getting hold of
you and participating in yourwork, what's the best way for
them to do that?
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Yeah, the best way is our website is.
I have a voicecom and we have.
You can access our YouTubechannel.
We have lots of free videos.
We also have our book, aroadmap to the soul, which you
can get on Amazon.
And if you're really interestedin doing a deep dive, we have a
four month online coachingprogram called Transform you and
(51:08):
all the information about thatis there and we take you through
just a transformational processfor individuals and couples.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
Love that.
I'm going to make sure all thatinformation, as well as
wherever else you are on socialmedia, so people can get a hold
of you.
Once again, thank you so much.
What an outstandingconversation.
They loved having you on theshow.
Speaker 4 (51:30):
Oh, thank you so much .
Speaker 2 (51:31):
What an outstanding conversation.
They loved having you on theshow.
Oh, thank you, god bless.
Thank you for listening to therevolutionary man podcast.
Are you ready to own yourdestiny, to become more the man
you are destined to be?
Join the brotherhood that isthe Awakened man at
(51:53):
theawakendmannet and startforging a new destiny today.
You know, life can sometimes feel like a relentless
race, trying to mendrelationships, overcome personal
battles and rediscover ourpurpose.
But what if the answers we seearen't external but buried deep
within?
Today, we're going to unlockthe power of emotional and
spiritual healing.
Prepare to uncover theinterplay of faith, love and
inner growth, how it cantransform pain into peace and
(00:27):
disconnection into profoundconnection.
So this episode isn't justabout recovery.
It's about living fully,finding freedom and experiencing
a soulful transformation.
Now, before we dive intotoday's topic, let's take a
moment and talk about somethingthat could change your life.
We all know how hard it is tostay true to ourselves in a
world that constantly pulls usin different directions.
(00:49):
The pressure to provide, toperform and persevere can leave
us feeling disconnected, likewe're drifting further from the
man we want to be.
And if you found yourselffrustrated and stuck and unsure
of how to bridge the gap betweenthe life you have and the life
you want, then let me introduceyou to Living With Integrity.
This is more than a program.
(01:09):
It's a roadmap fortransformation, and you're going
to realign your actions withyour values, rebuild meaningful
connections and create a legacythat truly matters.
So if you're ready to takecontrol and live with purpose
and become the man your family,community and future needs you
to be, then I'm going tochallenge you to start today.
Just go tomembersbeawakenedmannet and
begin your journey by taking theintegrity challenge, because
(01:33):
the only thing standing betweenyou and the life you're capable
of is decision to take thatfirst step.
And with that, let's get on.
With today's episode, let's geton with today's episode.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
The average man today is sleepwalking through life,
many never reaching their truepotential, let alone ever
crossing the finish line toliving a purposeful life.
Yet the hunger still exists,albeit buried amidst his
cluttered mind, misguidedbeliefs and values that no
longer serve him.
It's time to align yourself forgreatness.
(02:06):
It's time to become arevolutionary man.
Stay strong, my brother.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Welcome everyone to the Revolutionary man Podcast.
I'm the founder of the Wickedman Movement and your host, Alan
DeMonso.
How often do you find yourselfmaking a mistake, looking
towards external solutions forwhat, deeply, are internal
challenges?
And how can you recognize thischange of trajectory for our
lives?
And what would it take for youto heal your emotional wounds
(02:37):
and reconnect with your soul ina way that renews your
relationship purpose?
And you know, healing isn'tjust a destination.
It's a deeply personal andtransformative journey, and by
confronting emotional wounds andrekindling faith, the seeking
of soulful connections, we cancreate, rewrite our narratives.
And so today we're going toexplore how that profound
(02:59):
process of healing and spiritualalignment can empower anyone to
break free from the past andembrace the future of love and
inner peace.
And with that let me introducemy guests, Dr Dean and Holly.
Kemps and Sari are co authors ofa roadmap to the soul.
It's a practical guide to love,compassion and inner peace, and
they are experts in personaltransformation with over 30
(03:22):
years of experience Been marriedsince 1991 and they help
individuals and couples overcometrauma, break self-destructive
patterns and find purpose.
Dr Sonseri is a licensedprofessional counselor with
advanced degrees in practicalministry and mental health
counseling, specializing inemotional and spiritual health,
and Holly Kamm, a certified lifecoach, draws from her recovery
(03:44):
journey to inspire others towardfreedom and resilience.
And together these powerfulcouples share with us their
practical wisdom and heartfeltinsights that make them
compelling guests for an episodeI'm sure you're truly going to
enjoy.
Welcome to the show, Dr Deanand Holly Kemp.
How are things, my friends?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Thank you.
So good to be here.
That's so good.
I love the awakening aspect ofAwakening Men, because we've
been doing this for years andone of the characteristics we
see when people really take toit and grow is there literally
is an awakening, there's anunderstanding at a higher level,
and we love talking aboutgrowth, we love to see men go to
another level, so we're excitedto be here.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I'm so grateful to have you on and, as we were
saying, as we're getting ontotoday's show, it's always great
to have couples, especiallycouples that speak to the type
of topics we're going to touchon, just upon marriage, but also
this deeply transformative workthat both of you have done.
And my first opening questionfor all my guests is to talk a
little bit about their hero'squest or their hero's journeys.
(04:45):
Tell us about how your pathscrossed and how that experience
shaped you into the couple youare today and the work that
you're doing.
I'll start with you, holly Kim.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
Yeah, hi.
What's interesting is yesterdayI was sober for 42 years.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Oh, congrats.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
I know the journey of coming back from addiction and
alcoholism and dysfunction Grewup in a dysfunctional family.
Who doesn't?
Because we just don't know howto deal with our emotions.
It's not like a lesson we gottaught in elementary school.
So through that process ofworking on myself, going from
(05:20):
self-hatred to self-love, and onthat journey I met Dean and I
had already been divorced andout of that marriage for a long
time and as I met Dean we becamereally good friends and started
to really dig into where wewere at the time.
And we both were on this reallypowerful journey of discovering
(05:44):
, like, what did God want for us, who were we, what was our
destiny, and start to really diginto that.
At that time I was a boardcertified substance abuse
counselor and through thatbecame a life coach and an
ordained minister and in all ofthat 36 years of being in the
field of really what I do ishelp people love themselves and
(06:08):
that what I brought to the tablewas not only the educational
part but it was actually whatreally did work on me so I could
hopefully have a healthy,loving relationship.
So I could have a healthy,loving relationship with myself
and with God and with otherhuman beings.
So the journey of just diggingdeep, really facing the traumas
(06:35):
without fear today.
But there was a time when I didface those traumas I was
trembling.
When I did face those traumas Iwas trembling, but today,
because I've learned a system, alifestyle that works, I don't
(06:56):
face it with fear anymore, Iface it with joy, because I know
what's on the other side For us.
We've been married for 33 yearsand we work on ourselves still
today, after 42 years ofsobriety.
And one day now I can stillwork on myself.
I just can't go.
Oh, I've arrived.
I don't know when you arrive, Iguess when I cross over.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
But I'm not afraid.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
I'm not afraid of it anymore, which is beautiful.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Love that.
What about you, Dr Dean?
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Yeah, I love the term the hero's journey.
I think we all are called on asignificant journey and I think
mine began at 16 years old whereI was really made a commitment
to follow His voice, the voiceof my spirit, and eventually led
(07:51):
me to the seminary because inCatholicism that's like the
place to go.
But there was a certain pointwhere I never lost that calling,
but I did lose the attractionto the seminary.
You get real close to theCatholic Church and you see the
wonderful things and you see thewonderful things and you see
the underbelly and there was alot of things that occurred that
I decided to transition out andit was a really difficult
(08:13):
transition and there was also alot of turmoil in my family.
At that time my parents'marriage was on the rocks.
My dad's drinking had escalatedto levels that were a lot
higher than before.
We're a very tolerant culture inNew Orleans in terms of alcohol
but it just escalated to aplace where it was really
becoming a problem and in themidst of all, that was one of
(08:34):
the lowest areas in times and Iwas transitioning out of the
seminary and it was at that timethat I met Holly Kim and I
always say, the priest met thejunkie.
But the thing we had in commonwe were both really committed to
the same journey, even thoughwe were coming from I was coming
from the seminary, she wascoming from the streets and we
were hungry, just really hungry,to do whatever needs to be done
(08:57):
emotionally, psychologically,spiritually to walk in the
destiny that we believed we werecalled to do.
And eventually I got intocounseling and got into doing
work with life coaching.
But I think that, looking back,part of the hero's journey for
myself was that the deepesthurts became my deepest
(09:20):
treasures, and so what I mean bythat is just dealing with the
alcohol issues.
My dad made a very courageousdecision when I was probably
about 21, 20, 21 years old to goto treatment.
He's been sober ever since andhe's 87 years old, and in that
midst of that we learned a lotof things about alcoholism.
(09:42):
I made a commitment to stopdrinking myself because I could
see some unhealthy patterns, andthat was the most shameful
thing in my early adulthood lateteenagers, early adulthood but
it was transformed.
It was going through thegauntlet of an awakening,
literally, and now, for 35 plusyears, I've helped hundreds, if
(10:05):
not thousands, of individuals,families, that same thing.
So all of a sudden it's becomea treasure.
It's become from shame tobrought to the light to now.
It's the way I've served peoplefor so many years and we've
done that together.
Really We've been a partnershipin that and it's just been
(10:26):
really good that's outstanding.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
What I love about both your stories is really it
is I made a daughter to notehere it's really about pain to
purpose.
Yeah, we find our purposethrough our pain if we're
willing to be awake enough tosee the lessons that are being
put before us.
And you know, what I liked iswhat the question you asked
yourself there, holly kim, yousaid is what did god want for us
(10:51):
?
And as men, we tend to notbecause we get.
We are raised for the most partin that we need to be this
provider, this protectorpresiding over everything that
we think we need to.
This is a one-man showprotector presiding over
everything that we think we needto do.
This is a one man show that allthe weights that we are Atlas
with the weight of the world onour shoulders and we forget that
there's something much greatercalling us to do this work and
(11:15):
we have to be willing to do that.
And so I think that's what Ireally liked about this getting
into your book, a Roadmap to theSoul, because you talk about,
or use this analogy of thisvoices within and you have the
sign behind you there the I havea voice, and I like that idea.
So let's talk a little bitabout who, what and where these
voices are and how they'reimpacting our daily lives.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
Yeah, I'll go there.
And one thing I want to say,alan, is that I really
appreciate your commitment tothis journey for men, that
you're holding their handsthrough this, because, as a
woman, I find my women that I'veworked with they don't always
get how difficult it is to bethat man Like you're the one
(11:59):
that asks us to go out, you'rethe one that takes the lead and
you're the one that holds mostof the rejection, because we're
the ones that go no, no, thankyou.
And it's like how many no's doyou get?
I can't even imagine.
You know what I'm saying Ifyou're even brave enough to ask.
But just in all the no's thatyou did, do you know, as a woman
(12:20):
, I want to say I'm sorry forall the women that didn't get it
and I want to say thank you forasking.
I just think it's reallyimportant.
So in that just side note, I'mjust excited about this because
I love men.
I think they're awesome humanbeings.
I love my husband In this.
What happened was I see inthrees, I am dyslexic and 80,
(12:44):
and it's my gift.
And so in pictures, I see inthrees, I am dyslexic and 80,
and it's my gift.
And so in pictures, in pictures.
I see in pictures.
So words are not the greatestfor me.
So when you were giving yourmonologue and sharing all this,
it was beautiful because it wasso beautiful words, but it was
painting a picture.
And when someone would come tome or when they would talk to me
, when I was on the other sideof the sofa, I would see three
(13:05):
parts of myself that there was apart of me that was an addict,
that was hardcore, was aprotector, that would not, that
doesn't want me to get hurt andwould not take risks Okay, in
certain arenas, and sometimes itwould take too many risks in
other arenas.
And then there was a part of methat was very wounded by all
(13:26):
the traumas that I had done tomyself or it had happened to me.
And then there was my true selfthat wanted to be free, who I
really was, which I wasterrified that there wasn't a
big part there anymore.
She got lost in the midst ofthe trauma and the protection
and as I, that's how I startedto figure out what they were
(13:48):
asking me to do, what I neededto do, cause they kept saying
Holly, kim, you got to loveyourself and you got to quit.
You have to quit beating onyourself.
And I'm thinking what are theytalking about?
But finally I could see thatthere were these three parts of
me in the movie.
Sometimes they have the littleangel on one shoulder and the
little devil on the othershoulder.
What I could see was that therewas this true self that was that
(14:11):
felt guilty about the part ofme that did things that were
against my own values.
But what was in between thatwas this wound of not being able
to take nothing else in thebucket Like that bucket of
wounds were so large that mytrue self couldn't handle it
anymore.
So my protector came out andhelped me.
(14:33):
So when I would work withpeople, when they would speak to
me, I would categorize whenthey would speak, I would say
that is their wounded child,that is their protector, there's
their true self.
And as I would speak back tothem and say, look at it like
this, and I would say that istheir wounded child, that is
their protector, there's theirtrue self.
And as I would speak back tothem and say, look at it like
this, and I would show them andthat I wanted, what I wanted
from them was to have a voice onall three levels.
(14:53):
I wanted their wounds to tellme what, the way they saw it,
how it felt, what happened.
Then I wanted their protectorto tell me how they handled it
and how that worked for them inthe beginning and then how it
became their enemy.
And then who were they?
Who were they really?
And through that process?
(15:14):
When Dean can tell you about hisside of that, when we met he
had his master's in theology andthen what are you going to do
with that?
So he went to become acounselor, get his master's in
counseling.
And he's Holly Kemp.
What I'm learning and what youdo and your people they look
like people are going to getbetter, right, he said, through
the lessons.
Right, he said, but what you'redoing?
Your people are coming out ofthe office and they're getting
(15:36):
better and they're getting theirlives.
So teach me what you do.
So that's how we came up withthe whole concept of allowing
someone to see it and be able tohave a have a language for the
inner life.
Because it was like if someonesaid to me Holly, my kidneys
hurt.
I have never seen a kidney, I'mnot medical at all, but in my
(15:58):
mind I had a vision of what akidney looked like and I could
have compassion.
But for the inner life, for theemotional life, the spiritual,
there was no real good words.
So you could say something andI could miss it, and if I missed
it as your coach or as yourtherapist, you could really hurt
yourself and then you could endup in a divorce, you could end
(16:20):
up drinking suicide, I don'tknow.
So it was like I have to.
Really, my intention in myheart was I really wanted to be
able to hear what you weresaying and that I could speak it
back and we could learn to loveall of that.
Yeah, so that's where it reallycame out of, and then teaching
it to Dean.
Then we came up with the moreconcreteness of it.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah, dean, what about you?
Anything you want to add on tothat?
Speaker 3 (16:45):
of it.
Yeah, dean, what about you?
Anything you want to add on tothat?
I think that what happened waswe were on a honeymoon and one
of the things I asked Holly Kim,I said we were conditioning.
I said you know what'simportant to you, what would you
like?
And she said I want to write abook.
And I said it's hard for yousince you're dyslexic and you're
not good with words, and shesaid that's why I have you.
So really, when she began to seethe, I saw the brilliance of
(17:07):
the simple brilliance of whatshe was seeing, and so we put a
language to that and it's just alanguage to understand the
inner life and it made a lot ofsense.
It was originally applied a lotto addiction, because it's easy
to see somebody struggling withaddiction.
Yes, a part of me wants to usea part of me, doesn't want to
use a part of me, is afraid, orI feel rejected.
(17:29):
I want to sedate, but I don'twant to sedate because it causes
more problems.
So we're talking in all threevoices, but by by giving them
voices, then it helped theperson identify those things.
And when it goes back to reallyself-love we all have are
called on our journey and that'sour true self-calling.
(17:50):
But the biggest blocks of thoseis our wounds and our coping
behaviors.
So if we just try to empowerour true self-vision and we
don't deal with the other two,it makes it really difficult to
really fully pursue what we'recalled to do.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Yeah, that makes so much sense and the note I wrote
down here is a voice on allthree levels and in the men's
work that we do, that's some ofthat.
We call that the shadow workhere, and it's about having
giving the men courage to lookat that part of themselves that
they're not crazy about, right,that we tend to suppress, that
tend to.
You know, holly Kim, you talkedabout the number of no's.
(18:30):
You know that we get the amountof rejection, yes, and
depending on where we are from amental state, we may be using
that as fuel to move us forwardand then at other times in our
lives it can feel more like abattering ram and then it just
pushes us down and so we don'tlearn how to express, and that's
where I wanted to really takeus to.
The next part really is, look,talking about your develop, your
transformational process,because really you're what
(18:51):
you're I hear you're saying isyou're working with people
between the emotional andspiritual growth, and so let's
talk a little bit about whatthat looks like and how you're
helping folks do that.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Yeah, yeah, so really , really, the way I approach
spirituality is very simple, andcertainly it's in the
Judeo-Christian tradition.
But really, jesus said thethree most important
relationships is the verticalit's a relationship with God,
then relationship with neighborand to relationship with self,
and his primary charge is thatwe need to grow in a loving
(19:24):
relationship with those threerelationships.
So, in my own simple mind,anything that helps us grow in
any of those three relationshipsis good, is healthy, is
life-giving.
Anything that destroys thosethree relationships is bad or
unhealthy or, a theological term, would be evil.
And so then, when you look atit that way, it simplifies
(19:48):
things.
Now, religion's the institutionthat's supposed to help those
three relationships grow in apositive way, and sometimes it
does a really good job andsometimes it doesn't.
And so we begin to separate,okay, our religious experience
from our calling, and what we'venoticed is that when you grow
in one of those relationships ina positive way, it impacts the
(20:09):
other two.
So if I learned to love my owngrief, then I'm going to be able
to learn to love the grief inyou and I'm going to have a
better understanding of God.
If I'm stuck in my pain, theopposite is true I won't be able
to handle your pain and I'llprobably have resentment towards
God.
So the point being is that anymovement in one area ripples and
(20:33):
impacts the other two.
So when we're dealing withpeople, it's not a proselytizing
thing that someone comes in.
We just say we want to knowwhere you are right now on those
three relationships and we'regoing to give some attention to
helping it grow.
We're going to, we're going towater that, and a lot of our
work is starts off with therelationship with yourself.
(20:54):
Yeah, when I begin to theshadow work, I work as a very
much kind of a Carl Jungian type.
Things is is given names to theparts.
We just have three parts, butgiving names to the parts,
making some of the unconsciousstuff more conscious, owning it,
taking responsibility for it,acknowledging some of the ugly
(21:14):
thoughts and just saying, okay,I'm not going to give you power,
but I understand that you wantto slap your wife right now,
it's all right.
It brings me back to early in mymarriage just to illustrate it.
I remember my Holly cam had twojobs.
She was working a lot andreally neglecting our time
together and I was like, okay,you need to cut back on your
work because you're not beingavailable as my wife and this
(21:37):
and that.
So I'm right.
And given her the assertivecommunication.
And so she came home one day ona Friday she said honey, I took
all day, the rest of the dayoff today, all day Saturday and
all day Sunday.
We can spend the whole weekendtogether.
And at that moment, the woundedpart oh my God, you're going to
be smothered all weekend.
(21:58):
You're not going to be able todo anything.
And then my protector was likelie to her, tell her you got a
golf game on Saturday.
And true self was like I get tospend time with my wife.
Yeah, at that moment I'mdealing with these three, three
energies, right, one isterrified, one is wanting to lie
(22:19):
and another part's excited andI'm the one that asked her to
take the time off.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
So you know I need to be able to manage that.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
I need to manage that , and if I don't and I become
the fear, then it's not.
That result's not good.
If I slide to her, the result'snot good.
But if I'm able to translatethat and that's what we want to
do is help individuals translateand say look, I'm so glad
you're able to spend the wholeweekend together and I'm really
excited about that.
And a part of me was afraidthat I'm going to be controlled
(22:50):
the whole weekend and scaredabout that, and another part of
me actually wanted to lie to youjust to create space.
If I need some space, I'll askfor it, and then it creates a
moment of intimacy andconnection, as opposed to didn't
you ask me to take time off andnow you want to play golf and
it turns into something youdon't want to happen.
So, yeah, it's just a way tomanage the inner life so it can
(23:13):
bring connection as opposed toisolation and disconnection that
makes so much.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
I'm laughing with you here because I can totally
relate to that and I'm sureeveryone listening to this
episode there'll be lots of usmen.
This is what I asked for andall those emotions we go through
.
But really this is the nextquestion for you, Holly Kim.
It's really what I'm hearingyou talking about is really
helping people deal with theseunresolved emotional pain,
because that's really what'sstunting our growth from a
(23:39):
spiritual perspective and reallybeing on that journey and in
our relationship.
So talk a little bit about thatpiece, about this unresolved
emotional pieces that we keeptaking with us.
Speaker 4 (23:51):
Yeah, in the old days they used to call it baggage.
I brought this suitcase to themarriage and I didn't tell you
about.
And then something happens andit opens up and all this stuff
comes out.
And in that what happens isthat when we get wounded, let's
just say my grandmother dies,right, and.
But also that means my mother'smother died, my father's mother
(24:15):
in law died and all my siblingsand cousins and family lost
somebody they love.
So let's just say there's athousand pounds of love that
needs to help me heal from mygrandmother dying.
However, everybody needs athousand pounds of love, okay,
so maybe there's only a hundredto go around for each person,
(24:36):
just because, just because Notbecause nobody doesn't want to
do it, but we all lost the samething, do it, but we all lost
the same thing.
So in that what happens is that900 pounds that still deserves
love gets put in this bucketwhich we call the wounded child.
So then life goes on andthere's another loss and that
(24:59):
deserves 500 pounds of love andI'm only able to accomplish a
hundred pounds of love for it.
So I have another 400 that goesin that bucket.
That needs love.
You do that over a life, right?
That all of this stuff gets putin there.
It's not that I don't knowabout it.
It's not that I wouldn't takecare of it.
It's not that the people thatlove me wouldn't help me.
(25:21):
However, there's things in herethat just never got the love
that deserved.
Okay.
So instead of me having to beateverybody up because they
didn't know how to do it, it'sjust there's stuff inside of me
that needs love and deserves it.
So what happens is when we soour protector takes over and
figures out how to manage thatextra pounds of love that was
(25:45):
deserved or sedated.
We got to sedate it.
We got to pretend it's notthere, we got to put the mask on
, do whatever we got to do to befunctioning in society.
But this thing is heavy, sothis thing is trying to take
over, and what happens is thatwhen we get triggered and the
trigger, everybody's just stopthe trigger or let me get rid of
the person that's triggering me.
Really, what's happening is,when we get triggered and the
trigger, everybody's just stopthe trigger or let me get rid of
(26:05):
the person that's triggering me.
Really, what's happening is,when I get triggered, it is an
opportunity for me to go in andlove some of this stuff Because,
let's say, your grandmotherdied.
You're my good friend, I go toher funeral.
Now I am crying a little bitfor your grandmother and you,
but now my wounds are crying formy grandmother.
(26:29):
As an adult, I have theopportunity to love this and now
I have opportunity to maybe goto one of my siblings or
somebody else and we can havethat moment of loving each other
through this wound.
But what we've been taught, orwhat I was taught, was shh, that
was 20 years ago.
We're not gonna talk about that.
(26:49):
We're not gonna make anybodyelse sad.
Shh, we're not gonna talk aboutthat.
Make it go away.
Make it go away.
So, all of a sudden, myprotector is as big as my wounds
.
So if my protector is 100,000pounds strong, my protector is
100 hundred thousand poundsstrong.
But every time I get theopportunity to love some of this
stuff that deserved it, myprotector gets smaller, my wound
(27:14):
gets smaller, my protector getssmaller and there's more room
for me to continue to come out.
And as I learned to do that andthen I learned to trigger
myself, like on a podcast likethis, you're listening, you have
that opportunity, or you go togroups or a men's movement or
whatever.
You're taking the opportunityto trigger yourself to let those
(27:37):
things come out so you can loveit.
So the part of you that keepsyou from being in another
relationship or being aworkaholic or drinking too much
you can, that will get smallertoo.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I love that, and what I really appreciate about what
you're talking about here isthese are all topics that we
Well, we touch on here withinour men's group mentorship group
.
We call it the Band of Brothers, and one of the things we
talked a lot about last year wason relationships, and
relationships not just in ourmarriages, but the relationships
we have with ourselves, withour siblings, with authority,
(28:14):
and all of these little aspectsof relationship.
We have set different types oftriggers for us, and how we
react to it starts to show up inour key relationships, and so I
really wanted to focus now onfolks that are struggling with,
in a what we would call a brokenmarriage, things that they
brought this childhood baggagewith them.
(28:35):
They have triggers that arehappening, and yet they're.
They struggle individually andcan't seem to connect.
In your work, do you have aprocess that helps people go
from this point of the marriagebeing broken to getting on a
path to reigniting love andpassion for themselves?
Speaker 3 (28:52):
yes, yeah, we definitely do part of my
practice I do.
Probably 60, probably 70couples and really the when
people come to me there there'sbrokenness on a greater or
lesser degree, and so that'swhat we need to delve into.
And if you have, if each personalways say can you help us?
(29:17):
So what are you?
What are the results that youget?
Can you guarantee results, kindof thing.
I said I can guarantee you thatI'll give you everything you
need to restore yourrelationship.
The question is, are both ofyou all committed to that?
One might be committed, theother might not, another may be
partially committed, but there'sa roadmap to restoring any
(29:37):
relationship and I've seen it inthe most egregious hurts that
have occurred.
Certainly, infidelity isusually one of the deepest hurts
that can occur when it'srevealed and I say look, we can
restore this if you're bothwilling.
And it's not an intellectualprocess, it's an emotional
process.
So we're going to have to teachyou how to manage your emotions
(29:58):
, what to do, and also so webring them on a journey.
But we're going to have toteach you how to manage your
emotions, what to do, and allthat, so we bring them on a
journey.
But if we had to sum it up.
There's two principles that canrestore any relationship and
there's spiritual principlesthat have deep psychological
application.
One of the principles isrepentance, and repentance is
(30:19):
often thought about me repentingbefore God, which is a
dimension of it, but I'm talkingabout the horizontal dimension
of it.
I define repentance as to havea heartfelt sorrow for the
things that I have done to hurtyou, to take full responsibility
for it, to say it, look in youreyes and say it, and to make a
(30:41):
commitment to learn to do itdifferently.
So it's taking responsibility.
For my part, I always say tocouples I say look, if Holly Kim
symbolically slaps me threetimes and I slap her once and
then she slaps me three moretimes, in my own mind it's okay,
she's got six in, I got one.
She deserves at least two orthree, but it's how we think.
(31:02):
But what repentance looks likeis that it was wrong for me to
slap you that one time and I'msorry and I'm going to work on
learning to do it differently.
That's her job to deal with herslaps.
And if I can get the couple tofocus on their own actions,
reactions and behavior and takeresponsibility for that both of
(31:27):
them then we're going to getlots of movement.
So one of the exercises we dois that we have them write down
what are those coping behaviorsthat have hurt your partner and
I have them sit down on the sofaand look at each other in the
eyes and I say I apologize for,and I coach them and I say fill
in the blank.
And they go through it.
And then, after they go throughit, I say what do you see in
(31:50):
your partner's eyes?
I see sadness, I see hurt, Isee anger, I see this and
they're validating that.
And then I reverse it, I sayokay, I want you to look at your
partner I apologize for andfill in the blank, and you
wouldn't believe the intensityof tension that starts to get
(32:12):
released just in that verysimple exercise.
And the next principle isforgiveness, and forgiveness is
very much misunderstood.
It's not giving a person a passfor what they've done in the
past and saying it was okay.
No, it's recognizing that youhave done certain behaviors that
(32:32):
have hurt me and I carry thehurt in my heart from that and
I'm willing to lay down thathurt on the altar and ask it to
be removed.
And so forgiveness is really awillingness to let go of hurt.
It's not saying it was okay.
In fact, you probably wouldn'thave been hurt if it was okay.
(32:53):
It's taken for granted.
It was a violation on somelevel.
And what I teach people is thatforgiveness is not for the other
person, it's for you.
That if I have a friend, joepunches me in the face and he
goes about his business and Ithink about the next day man, I
can't believe Joe punched me inthe face.
(33:14):
And the next day one time, Ithink about man, my jaw is hurt
and I'm going to get him.
And the next day I think aboutit.
The next 30 days I think aboutit one time a day.
After 30 days, how many timeshas he punched me?
31, right, I've recycledthrough it over and over again.
I'm mad as a hornet.
But if I was able to get thatoffense out of my heart on the
(33:36):
third day.
Then I saved myself I had fourpunches instead of 31.
Third day then I saved myself Ihad four punches instead of 31.
And so it's recognizing thatforgiveness is a principle that
needs to be practiced.
Now, if both couples actuallypractice that and then bring
them through an exercise withthat look in each other's eyes,
okay, I forgive you for or I'mwilling to forgive you for.
(33:59):
Sometimes it's just I'm willing, you for or I'm willing to
forgive you, for Sometimes it'sjust I'm willing, I'm willing to
forgive you for.
And then I do the same thing.
Look in their eyes, say that,what do you see in their eyes?
What's this?
And we process.
And when we just keep nurturingthose things the
self-responsibility and theforgiveness, the repentance and
(34:19):
forgiveness we begin to restoreanything.
And that's the roadmap toreally restoration.
There's always other issuesinvolved.
We need to work oncommunication skills, we got to
work on meeting each other'sneeds, we got to do all sorts of
things.
But when we start gettingmovement in that first
repentance and forgiveness.
Because it's interesting whenyou look at it spiritually,
(34:40):
ellen is that Jesus said.
He said repent, for the kingdomof heaven is at hand.
So in my own view, what he wassaying is that look, heaven is
around us.
But if you practice thisprinciple of repentance, it'll
usher heaven into this situation.
And it's the same withforgiveness.
You practice forgiveness, it'llusher forgiveness into the
(35:05):
situation, heaven into thesituation.
But I also say it's your choice, because the opposite is true
too.
If practice, never takeresponsibility for your behavior
, never forgive, and I promiselots of hell in a relationship.
It's going to be there, right,and so we actually impact the
atmosphere of our relationship.
Never forgive and I promiselots of hell in a relationship.
It's going to be there right,and so we actually impact the
(35:29):
atmosphere of our relationshipby the attitudes that we adopt
to choose to interact with ourpartner.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
That makes so much sense I was just thinking about.
I think you know, for me, god'salways with me and, depending
on how well I want to listen,sometimes it's just a nudge and
I get the message, and othertimes I need a two by four to
really understand what'shappening.
And I think that's what you'resaying and so you're also next
to you, holly Kim, I really whatI hear Dr Dean talking about is
(35:58):
really helping couples develophealthy communication styles and
help so they can navigate this.
So tell us a little bit abouthow your work evolves around
that and helping couples reallylearn how to communicate
properly.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
Yeah with us.
We teach them the process ofthe roadmap and how to use their
voices.
So, let's say I have anindividual, that's the partner
didn't come or they're not in arelationship like that, okay, so
they're coming just to work onthemselves.
So the main thing that I'mdoing is teaching them how to
speak in the voices withoutsaying them Okay.
(36:28):
So a part of me is really hurt.
This really reminds me of whenI was seven and this happened,
and a part of me really wants torun away.
I don't even want to deal withthis.
However, what I need to say isthis but for them, they know
it's their wound, they know thatit's reminding them of a
(36:50):
certain situation.
They've gotten triggered.
They realize that theirprotector wants to run away, and
so they speak for their wholeself, and then they take it to
where they need to say somethinghealthy.
Now, if it's a couple what?
And they're both all doing thevoices right?
They'll say like.
For me, I'll say Ethie, which Icall my wounded self, right
(37:11):
Cause we name and claim them.
My Ethie is very hurt and Ifeel like she feels like when
this happened to her when shewas seven with her dad, and then
the example is he never showedup.
So when you didn't call me anddidn't show up, not only did I
feel the pain of you, but shealso all of the pain from her
(37:33):
came out as well when hewouldn't call me.
And then what my protectorwanted to do was divorce you.
She's already divorced you.
She's already seen the lawyerand signed the papers because
she's I'm not dealing with thisagain.
I've already dealt with this mywhole life.
I'm not dealing with this again.
However, I know that you loveme and I know that something
(37:55):
must have happened that wasgotten the way that you did not
show up.
So I really need to be open towhatever happened, because I
know you love me and I love you.
So what we do is we teach how tospeak for those parts instead
of becoming those parts.
So the work you do is reallyunderstanding.
How does that part see theworld, hear the world feel.
(38:19):
How does this part want toreact to the world?
Want to run away from the world?
Hear the world feel.
How does this part want toreact to the world, want to run
away from the world, and what itwants to do?
But I speak for them and I makeit like a part of me, but I, we
name and claim it okay.
And then holly come, I get tosay that this is what I want and
I know you love me, I love youand I don't.
(38:40):
I don't want to run away, eventhough this part does.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
And the awareness of it depowers.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
Oh, it's so, depowers it, because instead of it just
ruminating and ruminating, andthen those parts take me over,
because for me the wounded childand the protector are best
friends.
The wounded child becomes thesilent partner in the
relationship and it just talksstraight to the protector and
the protectors.
I got this, and then I'm beingand not being nice and slamming
(39:07):
doors and all of that, and I'vebecome her.
And so you didn't marry her,you married me.
I told you about her, believeme, and you laughed.
You thought it was funny, right, when she acted that way.
But you don't like when sheshows up, right?
So when I understand that, thenall of a sudden, and seeing,
I've told you about all thesewounds, right, if I'm in a
(39:29):
relationship, right.
So what happens when I gettriggered?
Now you've become all thosepeople to her and I get lost in
all of that, because now you'reone of them and you already know
what happened.
Why would you become one ofthem?
So now my protector is at warwith you, if I say it or I don't
.
So once I understand that, thenall of a sudden I can separate
(39:53):
you from her and them and I cancommunicate because the person
that I married the person thatI'm in love with.
All that happened was youtriggered that stuff.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
It's interesting to see that you know you're
triggered and you become adifferent part, because here's a
person I'm married to in mycase for 33 years that I love,
that has access to everything mybank accounts, this and that
and in 3.5 seconds she goes frommy lover to my enemy.
Yeah, how does that happen?
Speaker 1 (40:28):
yeah, and what I was thinking about as holly kim was
describing that you know, formen, when that happens, we don't
know how to deal with that,right, and so that's the other
side of this piece that I wantedto just explore for a couple of
minutes is so you're in a,you're in a situation and that
part, that protector part ofyour wife has come out and she's
(40:49):
got guns a blazing and ready togo to war.
What are you recommending formen to do and how they handle
that?
Is it a I'll?
I won't, I won't hallucinate.
I'll let you tell me what youguys think, what your work does.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
I think that comes to communication right.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
And certainly when she becomes her protector, then
it elicits my own protectivesystem to kick in and that's
where the self-management comesin and learning to manage that
well.
But in terms of responding toanswer your question, the
guideline that I use is it needsto be colored by two aspects
(41:27):
grace and truth.
And what I mean by that isthere's a scripture that I had
meditated on, one.
It says when Jesus he's talkingabout, the word was full of
grace and full of truth.
Grace is to have anunconditional acceptance of a
person, of where they are atthis moment, and it's to treat
(41:47):
them with dignity, even if I'mnot being treated with dignity.
So if you're watching meinteract with somebody and they
spit in my face and I'm stillrespectful back, you might say
wow, dean, you handled thatreally gracefully right.
I'm continuing to treat youwith dignity, even if I'm not
being treated with dignity.
The second part is truth.
It means to speak how I seethings from my vantage point, as
(42:11):
honest as possible, with asmuch integrity as possible.
Now, the order is veryimportant.
You lead with grace and thenyou speak truth.
If you flip the order, you'renot going to have a good result.
If I'm late all the time andHolly Kim says you inconsiderate
(42:32):
SOB, you're always running late.
You cause all our schedules off.
It may be absolutely true, butshe's not going to get the
response that she wants from me,right.
So those two aspects andhandling a volatile situation is
so important.
You need to lead with grace andcommunicate that and then speak
(42:55):
the truth.
If you just lead with grace andyou don't speak the truth, then
you become an enabler, begin toenable unhealthy behavior.
If Holly Kim's always late andI'm just graceful and I accept
that and I don't speak the truth, then I'm enabling that
unhealthy behavior.
Speaker 4 (43:12):
And we'll blow up later.
And it'll blow up at some point, yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
So those both are very important and when you do
that, that maximizes the chancesof being heard.
So if I'm running late andHolly Kim says, dean, I love you
, and things run so smoothlywhen you're on time I know
you're really busy, I know youhave a lot on your mind and it's
(43:36):
difficult to get here on timeAll right, so that's graceful.
And then she says it reallywould be helpful if you can
start coming home on time, asyou told me that you would do.
That would make our lives somuch better.
Can you work on that?
Look, she told me that shecares about me, she understands
me, she loves me.
(43:56):
And then she hits me with thetruth Okay, honey, I'm sorry,
it's true, I'm going to work onthis kind of thing.
And does it always work?
No, but that's going tomaximize the chance.
And I think, as I evaluated thatthose two characteristics and
looked at the life of Jesus,that's why he could handle so
many volatile situations inpowerful ways.
The woman that was caught in avery active adultery was thrown
(44:19):
before him and they said sheneeds to be stoned.
And he said we'll never sendyou throw the first stone.
And they all drop their rocksand walk away.
But it's interesting.
He turns to her and he sayswoman, do they not condemn you?
And she says no.
And then he says neither do I.
Grace, there was grace.
And then he said go and don'tdo it.
(44:40):
No more Truth.
And she became one of his, hermost faithful followers, and
that's what he did.
He could have he I'm talking tojesus right, he could have said
listen, you low down, dirty,whatever you got to get your act
together.
It's like probably wouldn'thave been received that way.
(45:02):
But yeah, lead with grace, thenspeak truth yeah, and I was
gonna say another thing.
Speaker 4 (45:07):
Alan is like if my spouse is turning into a
teenager, which the protector islike a teenager and it doesn't
look good on an adult, but turninto a teenager, it's my job to
stay an adult yeah yes.
So it's like your go there,that's goal.
It's like you're in yourprotector.
You're there, I see it.
Okay, I need to stay my adultself, okay, and just stay here.
(45:31):
Let you go there.
And then, as when you'refinished, even if it's ugly,
then I can say honey, I knowthat you love me and I can see
that I have really upset you andI can see that a part of you is
furious with me and I can seethat I have really upset you and
I can see that a part of you isfurious with me.
See, I'm saying a part whichmakes sense, because he's going
(45:52):
to be like a part of me reallyis, because a part of me he does
love me, right, and I know thata part of you is really hurt
and but I do know you love me.
So I really want to hear canyou explain it to me more softly
?
Yes, and all of a sudden thatperson starts to yes, a part of
me really is, and a part of meit's a trance really, when you
(46:14):
get into your protective part.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
It's a trance.
If I had to play the worstarguments between Holly Kim and
I in a recorder back to you, I'dbe embarrassed.
I don't know who that is, andit's like a trance, like state,
that we get in.
And so I either pull you intoyour protector trance or, if I'm
able to maintain true selfwhich is a lot to be said about
(46:36):
that but if I can maintain trueself, I will actually pull you
out of your protector tranceinto your true self.
Speaker 4 (46:45):
Yeah, I was just in my mind.
Yeah, of course I see picturesJohnny Depp and Amber Heard's
relationship at the court.
I was obsessed.
I had to see it all and I wasas everything.
I had to see all three parts ofme and see everything.
But what was so sad is thatthey were two people that were
in love.
They were very wounded fromtheir lives.
(47:07):
They got wounded by each otherand their protectors came out
fighting and it was war and thedestruction that was done was
unbelievable.
What he was a lot of peopledidn't know.
He had been sober five years atcourt so he could sit there and
(47:28):
not react because his true selfhad come to the table.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (47:35):
And when he got on stand not that I'm taking it up
for either one of them, becauseboth of their protectors were
very destructive to themselvesand others, but when he got on
stand he was able to speak thetruth.
I did do that.
I did do that.
I did do that Like he told onhis protector over and over and
over, and it was like in thatprocess and he spoke of his
(47:55):
wounds, of where he came fromand what happened, and it was
like he was unfolding.
You know what I see in all ofus, and his was at a higher
destruction level.
We all have moments that areugly like that and that are
painful like that.
So when he came to the table,when the court came and he was
there, his true self showed up.
(48:17):
Yeah, 100% yeah and he was ableto expose the ugliness of it all
.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Yeah, that's good, absolutely.
What a great conversation we'vehad today.
It's just been phenomenal, butof everything that we spoke
about and maybe there wassomething we didn't get a chance
to touch on if there was onetakeaway you'd want our
listeners to have for them today, what would that be?
Speaker 4 (48:38):
and I'll start with you, holly kim yeah, what I
would say is that to all you men, you are so powerful, you are
so worth the work, that what'sinside of you is so much love to
give and so much heart toreceive, that you are a brave
person, you do things that womencould never do, and that I
(49:02):
encourage you and challenge youto take the journey of finding
out who you really are and whatGod has for you.
It's worth it.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Love it, dr Dean.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
Yeah, I was told something years and years ago
which I took to heart.
I didn't understand it at first,but it was when I was getting
married or early in my marriageto Holly Kim, and there's a guy
that said said you can't trulylove a woman like she deserves
until you're loved by other men.
And what I gleaned from that isthat if we have an emptiness
(49:35):
inside of not being blessed andloved by our fathers, our
grandfathers, the men in ourlives, then we look to get that
need filled by our wives, andit's an impossible thing to do
and at that that point I mademyself vulnerable.
Get involved with men's groups,got involved with probably a
program similar to you have andjust committed to do the
uncomfortable work and it has,it's really impacted my ability
(49:58):
to be a really good husband anda good father.
And my encouragement to menthat are listening, that are
tickled in a sense like thismakes sense.
It's to consider connectingwith you and connecting with
your program and say, look, I'mgoing to go through the
uncomfortable vulnerableness oftaking a risk because, as I get
(50:18):
blessed and loved by other men,I will become a better husband,
I'll become a better father,I'll become a better businessman
and I'll become a betterbusinessman and life will get
better.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Love that.
What a great way to wrap aconversation today.
I want to say thank you, drDean and Holly Kim, for spending
time with us today, and Ireally believe you showed us
that through faith, we cantransfer through anything, and
so if men or couples areinterested in getting hold of
you and participating in yourwork, what's the best way for
them to do that?
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Yeah, the best way is our website is.
I have a voicecom and we have.
You can access our YouTubechannel.
We have lots of free videos.
We also have our book, aroadmap to the soul, which you
can get on Amazon.
And if you're really interestedin doing a deep dive, we have a
four month online coachingprogram called Transform you and
(51:08):
all the information about thatis there and we take you through
just a transformational processfor individuals and couples.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
Love that.
I'm going to make sure all thatinformation, as well as
wherever else you are on socialmedia, so people can get a hold
of you.
Once again, thank you so much.
What an outstandingconversation.
They loved having you on theshow.
Speaker 4 (51:30):
Oh, thank you so much .
Speaker 2 (51:31):
What an outstanding conversation.
They loved having you on theshow.
Oh, thank you, god bless.
Thank you for listening to therevolutionary man podcast.
Are you ready to own yourdestiny, to become more the man
you are destined to be?
Join the brotherhood that isthe Awakened man at
(51:53):
theawakendmannet and startforging a new destiny today.
Popular Podcasts
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Betrayal: Season 4
Karoline Borega married a man of honor – a respected Colorado Springs Police officer. She knew there would be sacrifices to accommodate her husband’s career. But she had no idea that he was using his badge to fool everyone. This season, we expose a man who swore two sacred oaths—one to his badge, one to his bride—and broke them both. We follow Karoline as she questions everything she thought she knew about her partner of over 20 years. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-3 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.