April 2, 2025 • 53 mins
Let me know your thoughts on the show and what topic you would like me to discuss next.
What does it mean to be a man in today's world? Between societal pressures, conflicting expectations, and the constant messaging about "toxic masculinity," many men find themselves walking an impossible tightrope – trying to be strong yet sensitive, confident yet humble, successful yet balanced.
Josh Tomeoni joins us to tackle these contradictions head-on with refreshing honesty and depth. As a coach, entrepreneur, and host of the Derelict Podcast, Josh creates spaces where men can be real about their struggles without shame. Drawing from his own spiritual awakenings and "midlife crises," he shares how discovering his purpose – helping men reclaim their authentic masculinity – transformed his life and relationships.
This conversation dives fearlessly into why so many men in their prime years (35-50) experience the highest suicide rates, and how disconnection from authentic self contributes to this crisis. Josh challenges the very concept of "toxic masculinity," arguing that toxicity has nothing to do with true masculinity – a perspective that liberates men to embrace their natural strengths without apology.
We explore practical wisdom for navigating divorce, making conscious choices about who influences your life, and approaching failure with curiosity rather than judgment. Josh's approach combines compassion with accountability, reminding us that failure is simply not accomplishing something – not being a failure as a person.
Whether you're struggling with relationship challenges, questioning your purpose, or simply tired of feeling like you're wearing a mask, this episode offers a roadmap to authentic masculinity and leadership. Ready to transform not just your life but the lives of those around you? Join us for a conversation that might just change everything.
Key moments in this episode:
04:52 Josh's Journey: Embracing Authentic Masculinity
07:58 The Crisis of Masculinity and Mental Health
11:54 Balancing Masculine and Feminine Energies
17:55 Living Authentically: Personal Responsibility and Growth
27:42 Understanding the Trap of Tanking Relationships
29:28 Reframing the Ex-Spouse Relationship
32:42 Navigating Post-Divorce Dating
35:47 Honesty and Privacy with Children
43:29 The Importance of Curiosity and Self-Compassion
48:54 Surrounding Yourself with Positive Influences
51:54 Connecting with Josh for Support
52:42 Conclusion and Call to Action
Thanks for listening to the Revolutionary Man Podcast. If you want more information about our programs, use the links below to check us out. It could be the step that changes your life.
Want to be a guest on The Revolutionary Man Podcast? Send Alain Dumonceaux a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/revolutionarymanpodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I just want you for one moment to imagine living in
a world, or navigating yourselfin a world, where you have your
sense of self, masculinity andleadership are constantly being
challenged by societal norms andpressures.
As men, you're expected toexcel in relationships, career,
in our family life, but whathappens when you're not given
(00:24):
the tools or even theunderstanding to do so?
How do we break through thisnoise and reclaim our identity
and our authentic purpose?
So too often for men, we findourselves stuck in roles defined
by others, disconnected fromour own values and
self-authenticity, and so theresult of this is that it's a
life that feels constrained,unfulfilled and far from the
(00:50):
greatness that we're trulycapable of achieving.
And so, in today's episode,we're going to explore the deep
and unfound, often unspoken,struggles men face in covering
how to rediscover authenticmasculinity, foster stronger
relationships and embrace aleadership in every aspect of
our life.
This is going to be more thanjust about personal growth.
It's about really stepping intoour purpose that has the power
to transform not only the lifethat we live, but the lives
(01:13):
around us as well.
And before we get into today'stopic, let's take a moment to
talk about something else thatcould potentially change your
life, because we all know howhard it is to stay true to
ourselves and in a world that'sconstantly pulling us in
different directions.
So the pressures for us is toprovide, perform, persevere and
leave us feeling disconnected,like we're drifting further from
(01:36):
the men we want to be.
So if you've ever felt stuck orfrustrated and unsure of how to
bridge the gap between the lifeyou have, the life you want,
then let let me introduce you toliving with integrity.
It's more than just a program.
It's a roadmap oftransformation.
You're going to learn how toalign your actions with your
values, rebuild your meaningfulconnections and create a legacy
(01:57):
that truly matters.
So if you're ready to takecontrol of your life with
purpose, become the family manthat your family is actually
looking for in your community inthe future.
That really needs you to be.
I'm going to challenge you tostart today.
Just go to thememberstheawakenedmannet and
start your journey by taking theintegrity challenge today,
(02:18):
because the only thing standingbetween you and the life you're
capable of is the decision totake the first step, and with
that, let's get on with today'sepisode.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
The average man today is sleepwalking through life,
many never reaching their truepotential, let alone ever
crossing the finish line toliving a purposeful life.
Yet the hunger still exists,albeit buried amidst his
cluttered mind, misguidedbeliefs and values that no
longer serve him.
It's time to align yourself forgreatness.
(02:52):
It's time to become arevolutionary man.
Stay strong, my brother.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Welcome everyone to the Revolutionary man podcast.
My name is Alan DeMato, I'm thefounder of the Awakened man
movement, and so, before we getstarted, allow me to ask you a
couple of questions.
How can you understand andembrace authentic masculinity
and transform not only your lifebut also your relationship and
your leadership style, and whatsocietal pressures might be
(03:24):
holding you back from fullystepping into your identity as a
man, and how can you overcomethese?
The journey to authenticmasculinity and leadership
begins with understandingyourself and challenging the
societal norms that hold us back, and today we're going to
explore how reclaiming youridentity can lead to deeper
relationships, greaterconfidence and more powerful
(03:46):
purpose.
So allow me to introduce myguest who's going to walk us
through all of this today.
Josh Tomiani is a coach,entrepreneur and host of the
Derelict Podcast, where hecreates a space for men to be
real about their struggles andfailures.
Over 18 years, he's built asuccessful financial planning
companies and, while learningfrom the setbacks in marriage,
(04:08):
business and parenting, and somuch more, josh believes the
failure is stepping is thestepping stone to success and
shares his journey to helpothers navigate their own
challenges.
And he's also a father of free,passionate about adventure,
travel, living with authenticity.
And I always say if you reallywant to learn something about
yourself, get married, have kidsand start a business.
(04:31):
And so, josh, you're doing allthree of those.
I'm looking forward to havingyou on the show.
How are things, my friend?
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Thank you, alan.
That was quite the introduction.
Quite a bunch to live up to.
I'll try my best.
I'm sure they're doing great.
I my best.
I'm sure they're doing great,I'm doing great.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
We're just having a conversation, right before it
started, about some of yourupcoming travels and I love to
travel as well, so I'm excited.
Let's dive in.
Yeah, absolutely.
Here on the revolutionary manpodcast, Josh, we always talk
about everyone being on theirown hero's journey.
We call it a hero's quest, andso my first question to you and
I've tweaked it a little bit isto tell us about your life and
rebirth moment.
What's that moment that reallyshaped your life and how did
that experience shape you intothe man you are today and the
(05:12):
work that you're doing?
Speaker 3 (05:14):
It's a good question.
I've had several of those.
I can't point to just one.
I usually call them spiritualawakenings.
I think that, no matter whatyou believe religious, spiritual
, whatever there are thesemoments in our lives where we
have this awakening and werealize whatever version of
ourself needs to be shed Kind oflike a lizard right, like we
got to get rid of thatexoskeleton and move on to
(05:35):
whatever the next version ofourselves are.
Or we could always choose notto do that and just live
miserably and have thatexoskeleton slowly suffer us to
death.
We could do that, I would say.
The most recent one that I'vehad was probably my third
midlife crisis that I've had.
I started young, but this oneactually was when I was turning
(05:56):
40.
And when I was turning 40, Iasked myself a very simple
question.
I was 39 years old, obviously,and I said hey, josh, I had this
conversation with myself, whichsometimes I do.
I said, josh, what is yourmission?
What is your purpose?
What is your mission?
What are you?
(06:17):
Why are you here on this planetwhen you're 50?
That was my question to myself,and I came up with a lot of
answers.
My, the majority of my answerswere very in line with what
you're doing on your podcast,which is part of the reason I
decided to be a guest on here,and I really appreciate coach
people, which I currently do.
(06:37):
But even bigger than that was totry to coach men into their
authentic masculinity,specifically men that are in
that midlife period that oftenget overlooked or often get told
(07:00):
not to live in theirmasculinity by our world.
They're often told hey, if youlive in your masculinity, it's
toxic, it's evil, it'schauvinistic, and instead what
you should do is just get rid ofall that nasty masculinity
stuff and just be feminine, andthere's nothing wrong.
We all have femininity andmasculinity.
(07:21):
We're not talking about male,female here.
Every single man, every singlewoman has both.
The majority of men havemajority masculine traits.
The majority of women havemajority feminine traits, so
that's who I'm really speakingto right now.
So to tell a man that hasmajority masculine traits that
he needs to get rid of all ofthose and have feminine traits
(07:41):
instead makes him inauthentic.
The same way it would be sayingthat to a woman who has
primarily feminine traits.
So I realized that my purposein life was to help men
rediscover what that looks likein their life and to help coach
them through that.
A very sobering statistic that Italk about a lot when I guest
(08:02):
on podcasts is that I don't knowif this is true in Canada I'm
in the United States but I doknow that in the United States,
the highest rate of suicideamong any group is 35 to 50 year
old men.
Why is that?
It's the prime of our life.
I think both of us are at leastclose to that bucket, if not in
(08:24):
that bucket.
Why is that?
Why are so many men justdeciding to end it all in the
prime of their life, whenthey've really gotten their
career underway?
They probably have their familyunderway, they have an idea of
who they are as a person and Ithink, frankly, it's not.
I'm not blaming this on society,but I think it's because men
(08:45):
get to a point where they thinkI'm not enough or whatever it is
that I thought I was.
I can't be and I don't know howto be the authentic version of
myself, and whatever thisversion is I don't like.
Therefore, I just don't know ifit's worth trying anymore, and
it's really incredibly sad, andmy whole mission and passion in
(09:09):
life is to help be there for menwhen I didn't have someone
there for me in my darkest ofdays, whether that meant a
business failure, the divorcethat I went through, you name it
.
I failed at everything, and allfailure is like you said
earlier.
It just means that you didn'tdo what you're trying to do, if
(09:29):
that's the definition.
I fail every single day, solet's not be scared of the word,
but I want to be there for menthat don't know where to go next
, and they don't necessarilyhave to be suicidal.
That's an extreme example, butjust a man that wants to go to
the next version of himself andthere's just something holding
him back.
And, by the way, alan, I don'thave this figured out.
(09:52):
Like I still deal with thisstuff too.
I have limiting mindsets andbeliefs every single day of my
life.
So I'm not saying I've figuredit out.
I've just helped enough menwalk through it that I can see
the signs, I can see thepatterns and, frankly, I have
coaches in my own life because Iknow that I need the same thing
just like I try to help withother men.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah, josh, all of what you just said just
resonates so deeply with me andour work that we're doing here
as well, because I think we havethose death and rebirth
experiences in our life, andit's because it helps us look at
what's working and not working.
And, to your point, we caneither choose to do something
about it or we can allow thisexoskeleton to start to actually
constrict us and choke us.
And I think it's reallyimportant that there are more of
(10:39):
us doing men's work and doingthis, doing it in a way that
resonates with us, because thenwe're being authentic.
And I say the same thing to myguys if you're looking for a
guru program, this is not theprogram for you.
I've figured out a couple ofthings, a few things that might
be down the path a littlefurther in different areas of
life, and but we need to do thisas a group.
(10:59):
As a group, we learned to be.
We learned about healthymasculinity and what, who we are
as men by being around othermen.
And so when you started to talkabout that and your the stats
about suicide, those arevirtually identical in Canada as
well something like four timesas many men commit suicide as
women do, and in the top fiveeven at 60'm, 58, I'll be 59
(11:25):
here this year, it's the statsdon't get any better for men.
And so, as we get older, if westill haven't accomplished what
we felt we wanted to in our 20s,and we're getting that close to
that edge of retirement andthere isn't something for us to
go forward to or go on to nextto, it's even a bigger problem.
(11:49):
And so let's talk a little bitabout this work that you're
doing, and so grateful thatyou're doing it, but you also
talk about, excuse me, not onlyis it is authentic masculinity,
about living truly with whatyour values are, but how are you
employing this in your life andnow leading other men to do it?
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Uh, yeah, sure, A lot of it is.
Just I don't know how to answerthat question.
It's a very good question, I'mjust not sure how to put it in a
little package bow.
To be honest with you, I thinkwhere it all starts is awareness
, and I think, in general, asmen and any men that are
listening or watching, feel freeto reach out to me and tell me
(12:33):
that you disagree.
That's fine.
But I think in general as men,we have not only the societal
expectation, but expectationfrom other men, expectation from
people that we talk to,expectation from our family,
friends, etc.
That somehow we have to figureit out.
That we, as my grandpa, used tosay, just pick yourself up by
(12:55):
your bootstraps and try again.
You fall off the horse, you getback on it, you fall down, you
pick yourself back up, then it'soh.
The answer is always just do itagain.
It's never become aware ofwhat's happening, understand
what's actually going on withinyou so that you can then become
a better person.
It's just go do it again, andthat's not always the answer.
(13:17):
The answer isn't always just godo something.
I know a lot of guys like to saythis on social media because
it's an easy social media clipJust do stuff, don't do anything
else, just do stuff.
Okay, that's fine to a degree,but that also is a key
prescription of somebody whokeeps just doing stuff and then
drops dead at 42.
And everyone's like whathappened?
(13:39):
The guy was healthy, he ran, hedieted, he did all these things
.
Now he's dead.
That's because he just stuffedthings in his life forever.
He just kept doing stuff andthen he's out.
So I don't know, I don't likethat prescription myself, but
the other side of it, the answerwe, I think, so often get in
(14:00):
our society, is this kind offeminized version of a man that
sits around, talks about hisfeelings all the time, cries,
wears mascara, does all thethings of oh, I'm just going to
be this emotional mess.
And that's not femininityeither, by the way.
This is just some weird versionof femininity that society
(14:23):
likes to bring along because,for whatever reason, it's
dramatic and everything elsethat's not any better either.
That's not the answer, it's.
I talk about this sometimes.
I don't actually believe in theterm toxic masculinity.
Let me explain for a second why.
I'm not saying there's nottoxic individuals, there are
(14:44):
toxic men.
There's also toxic women.
So let's not be sexist here.
There's toxic everybody.
There's people that act in avery toxic way.
I personally don't believe thatanybody that's acting toxic is
acting out of their true nature,because I believe people in
their true nature are beautiful,wonderful created beings.
But I do believe that peopleact in toxic ways for whatever
(15:08):
reason.
If a man is acting toxic,that's not their masculinity.
Their masculinity is pure, it'sauthentic.
Masculinity is a beautifulthing, just like femininity is.
If somebody is acting out oftheir femininity or their true
masculinity, they're not actingtoxic.
So I think part of the problemwith even calling it toxic
(15:29):
masculinity is that you'rerelating masculinity.
Say that five times, real fast.
You're relating masculinity totoxicity, and those two should
not be related.
There is toxicity and there ismasculinity.
So if somebody is acting toxic,say they're acting toxic.
I have no problem with thatwhatsoever.
There are people that act toxicbut it's not because of their
(15:53):
masculinity, that's right.
That act toxic but it's notbecause of their masculinity,
that's right.
So the problem with calling ittoxic masculinity is that the
only answer for that is theopposite, which is femininity.
Then you have a society thatjust adds femininity.
Anytime masculinity is broughtup, because masculinity itself
then ends up being seen as toxicor evil, or chauvinistic or bad
(16:15):
ends up being seen as toxic, orevil, or chauvinistic or bad.
And now you have an overlyfeminized society where you're
missing the masculine traits.
And, by the way, the same thingcan happen.
If you have an overly masculinesociety and you're missing the
feminine traits, that alsodoesn't work well.
So I'm not saying one is betterthan the other.
Here I'm saying they'rebeautiful in how they work well.
(16:35):
So I'm not saying one is betterthan the other.
Here I'm saying they'rebeautiful in how they work
together.
Yes, it's true, and this is notalso like a straight gay thing
either.
In every couple, every couplethat lasts, every couple that
actually works well, there isgoing to be somebody who's
primarily masculine and somebodythat's primarily feminine.
There is going to be somebodywho's primarily masculine and
(16:56):
somebody that's primarilyfeminine.
Correct, mark my words twoprimarily feminine people
whether they're male or femaledoesn't matter don't work.
Two primarily masculine men, ormen or women just masculine
people do not work.
Yep, and what ends up happening?
What I've seen a lot is thatmen are told don't be masculine,
no-transcript each other for it, yes.
(17:43):
And then they're bitter andthey're resentful and it grows
and grows till one day, all of asudden, they get divorced and
all their friends sit around andsay they seem like such a great
couple.
What happened?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
it's so true, and I think what you've brought
dropped many things there and Ijust want to go back to.
You talked a lot about theseexpectations and I think that's
really important for us tounderstand is that when we
consider whether it's comingfrom societal, it's coming
through a front, through othermen, or it's coming from through
family, that how we embody thatsays a lot about who we are,
(18:17):
how we're identifying, and Ithink if there's important work
for us to do as men is torecognize where that, where our
identity, is coming from.
Not to say it to your point isnot to say that it's bad because
you're adopting it from otherplaces.
But but is it true for you,right?
Is it really true?
Because if it isn't, then itgoes back to your other point,
(18:39):
where you start raising I needto be today, I need to be more
feminine and more nurturing more, more caring more, and so you
start ramping that up and, whilethose are all excellent traits,
if you're not being decisivewhich is more of a masculine
trait, I'll suggest in instepping into it and being
involved in the in yourrelationships, then you're going
(19:02):
to be tired man because you'vegot this mask that you're
holding on and it's not who youare, and that's how we lose
respect.
And that's exactly what happenedin my first marriage and
married my high schoolsweetheart, but in the end, what
ended up happening is that wejust I was just totally
emasculated because I justthought I needed to be a nice
(19:23):
guy, and so when you fall intothat aspect, then she loses
respect for you and you loserespect for yourself because
you're not standing up, and Ithink that's so important.
The other piece I wanted tomention, just to touch on the
toxic masculinity I heardsomebody say the way they also
described it was that hurtpeople, and so when you look at
the behaviors, what's going onbehind it for them now maybe
(19:45):
it's a consistent behavior andthey are toxic as an individual,
but what got them to that point?
Maybe there's a way for us tolook at how we can show up as
father figures or leaders, thatto help them grow and move
through that transition andthrough that and I'm sure you do
that in your work, as we dohere, and so lots of great
(20:05):
points there.
I hope guys that are listeningor understanding what we're
saying is that there's a needfor both aspects of those
energies in in in life, and howwe dial them up or not really
impacts the success of ourrelationships.
Great points.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Agreed.
Just to reiterate, not everyman has primarily masculine
energy, correct, some men haveprimarily feminine energy, it's
just a lot less.
That's probably 80% of men haveprimarily masculine energy.
80% of women have primarilyfeminine energy, so that still
leaves 20% of men and women thatare on the other side.
So you have to understand whatyour primary energy is and how
(20:43):
to live authentically in thatenergy, because if you're living
authentically in that energy, alot of problems disappear.
Trust me they do, because I wasthe same way in my first
marriage as well, alan, where Iallowed myself to essentially
become emasculated as well andbecome in a lot of that kind of
(21:04):
it was more codependent and alsosome like feminine energy,
because I just was trying tokeep everything okay, yeah, and
I didn't man up.
And I don't mean man up likeeverybody means on social media,
where it's oh, you got to hitthe gym for four hours a day.
That's not what I'm talkingabout.
I'm saying living in my actualauthentic masculine energy yes
(21:24):
because here's the deal.
Here's a controversial take.
That's true.
Every feminist in the worldthat spouts feminism as loud as
possible, I don't care if it's aman or a female every feminist
in the entire world.
What they actually want is moremasculine energy in their life,
(21:45):
more healthy masculine energy.
Now they go about this bythinking that masculine energy
is toxic.
So they think the answer oftenis more feminine energy.
Ask any of them if they'rehappy with the results.
They're not.
Why they're not happy with theresults?
(22:06):
Because they're not seeing thathealthy masculine energy is
actually an answer to theproblem they have.
What they're also not seeing isthat oftentimes they bring on
masculine energy that's notauthentic to themselves.
So then a man often matchesthat with feminine energy that's
(22:27):
not authentically themselves.
And we're back to the samepoint we just talked about.
You have a woman who'sprimarily feminine energy acting
masculine.
You have a man who's primarymasculine energy acting
masculine.
You have a man who's primarymasculine energy acting feminine
.
It doesn't work.
Here's a better analogy, maybefor people that are listening
that are like I'm getting sostuck with this whole masculine
feminine thing because we'vesaid it a million times already
on this podcast.
Here's a better way of thinkingabout it.
(22:49):
Think about the time that youwere a chameleon.
Everybody's been a chameleon.
You've gone somewhere and youthought that you needed to act
in a certain way in order to fitin.
Maybe it was a golf countryclub and you were poor and you
realized, wow, maybe I need todress a little better, I need to
speak a little better, I needto not show the fact that I'm
(23:10):
missing five teeth, whatever, itis right.
You go to a symphony for thefirst time and you realize, oh
man, maybe I need to dress upfor this.
Maybe this is a differentenvironment than I'm used to.
Maybe you're used to beingdressed up and you go to a
client who is an electrician.
You show up in a three-piecesuit and everybody looks at you
sideways.
Who is this fool?
(23:31):
I don't want to listen to thisguy.
So it's not a better or worse.
It's just think about the timewhere you've been in this
situation.
Maybe it was with your spouse'sfriends and they're very
different than you.
They have very differentpolitical beliefs, or they have
very different religious beliefs, or whatever it is, and you
felt like you had to put on thissuit, you had to put on this
(23:52):
different skin.
Tell me one time you had to dothat and you felt completely
free and open and authentic inyourself.
It doesn't happen, right?
No, because you can't.
It's not authentically you.
You can pretend all you want.
Ask any actor.
I've been on stage, I've donesome minor acting.
(24:14):
I'm telling you, if you areacting a different role, you
just you do your best to try toget in the state of whatever
that person would be in, but atthe end of the day, it's not you
, and some of the most of thebest actors and actresses that
exist are the ones that playroles that fit well with
(24:35):
themselves Doesn't mean thatthey don't change things about
themselves, but the ones thatthey authentically can portray
come across better.
There's very few, I would sayeven actors that cannot do that.
If you look at most actors andactresses, there's a similar
theme with every role they play.
It might not be the same role,but there's a similar theme with
(24:57):
most of them, not all.
Some are like just crazy andthey can do anything and you're
like I don't understand how youdo all of these different roles,
but most of them there's somesort of similar thing.
It's the same thing as we arewith humans.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
And there's another thing that you brought up
earlier too, that I want to bereally careful of as well.
I'm not saying because society,your family, your friends, your
connections, et cetera,encourage you to be a certain
way.
I'm not saying that allows usany of us as men to play the
victim card.
No because playing the victimcard never helps.
(25:30):
No, it doesn't help me.
It doesn't help the people thatI'm playing it with, it just
doesn't help.
So I'm not saying it's anyoneelse's fault, but my own.
When I was that emasculatedmale in my marriage, I would not
blame that on my.
That was not my wife's fault.
I had the choice to do that.
I didn't have to do that.
That's on me.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
I have to take responsibility for that
(26:21):
no-transcript, somethingdifferent about that, whatever
that looks like.
And then, who do I aspire tobecome?
What do I want you talked aboutin your.
When you're opening there at 40, thinking about what is my life
going to look like at 50, andhow many men today you would
even think past this weekend,let alone 10 years.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
And so when you start , that was me for most of my
life.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Man, I get it yeah, and for in some parts of my life
today it's still like that, andI think that's why our work
this year with our group isreally about.
When I say living with, livingin, with integrity in our own
lives and different aspects, howare we showing up?
Are we showing up trulyauthentic?
What are my values and mybeliefs around finances,
(27:08):
relationships, my business,everything?
How am I showing up?
Because in some parts of ourlife, I bet you show up like
super well, you're totallyaligned, everything runs smooth.
And then there's, in some partsof our life, I bet you you show
up like super well, you'retotally aligned, everything that
runs smooth.
And then there's probably otherparts of your life that's not
the case.
And so how we show up and bemore consistent and be more
authentic really takes us intohaving some self-introspection,
(27:32):
and you wrote a book on thisstuff.
You talked to their books thefive traps that men face when we
go in divorce and that really,when we go through divorce, it
forces us to look at and takeresponsibility for things, and
so many of us have been throughthat really brutal ordeal.
And so in your book you talkabout one of the traps that we
fall into is tanking.
So tell me what your idea aboutthis tanking is and how it is
(27:55):
that this trap is burning menalive.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Sure, yeah.
The fifth trap is tankingrelationships post-divorce, and
I specifically speak of twodifferent categories of
relationships.
The number one relationship Idiscuss is the one with your
spouse or your ex, soon to be exspouse, and there's a couple of
different ways of taking thatrelationship and it's like a
(28:19):
spectrum.
So, on this side is be a dickat all times and just play the
victim and think that everythingis their fault and spew vomit
about them, not only to them,but to everyone that you know,
to your children, so on and soforth.
You You've met that person,maybe you've been that person, I
don't know, maybe we all have.
(28:41):
So there's that side of thingsand on this side of things it's
really critical.
It's like being careful.
What you're watching for yourmind, right?
If I watch the same horrificstuff all the time in my mind,
it's going to be implanted in mymind.
It just is so you can dowhatever you want.
You're an adult, I don't careEverybody watching this.
(29:03):
Do whatever you want, but ifyou consistently watch the same
thing, that's where you're goingto get programmed with.
It's like politics.
If you consistently watch thesame channel, that's saying the
same thing about the same party,about the same thing.
You're going to believe it, andthen you're going to believe it
, and then you're going to thinkit's your thought when it's
(29:23):
reality, it's just thepropaganda you've been fed into
your mind and you're believingthe propaganda.
Yeah, I don't care what side itis, it's the same thing over
here.
Even calling my ex-spouse myex-spouse does something
negative in my brain, becausewhat that does is it makes me
think of this person as a failedrelationship that somehow
screwed me over.
(29:44):
So one of the things I learnedvery early on going through my
divorce process is that I trynever to call her my ex spouse
and I may have already done itin this podcast, because I mess
up sometimes.
What I try to call her, everysingle time I'm referencing who
this person is my kid's mom.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Ah nice.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Cause that's always positive.
Yeah, because when I say mykid's mom, like it's impossible
for me not to get a little smilebecause I love my kids and I
want what's best for them.
So if I can think of her inthat context, it's much better
than that bitch who took half myshit and more of my stuff and
everything, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah and ruined my life.
(30:26):
Like it's just even the titlingof it, like I remember what I
even had to do on this side wasthat there were several people
in my life that were a team Josh, that were all for me during my
divorce and everything else,that I had to ask to stop
speaking negatively about her,because they would do it to try
to I don't know be on the samepage as me or something else.
(30:46):
I think they had the bestintentions, but after a while
I'm like, look, I need aspositive thoughts as possible
about this person.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
This person is my children's mother.
I want what's best for her.
I want what's best for her andI want her to have the best
relationship with my kids as shepossibly can Now.
Does that mean if there'stoxicity in there you don't need
to set boundaries?
And of course there's all thatstuff, but I still want the best
possible feelings about her.
(31:15):
The other side of that spectrumthat was long-winded, the other
side of that spectrum that waslong winded, the other side of
that spectrum is too cozy withthat person and that is the
person that goes back and Idon't know, maybe get a little
intimate, maybe have some sex,maybe kind of play around with
staying in the relationship.
And not only does that hurt you, what it really hurts is the
(31:36):
kids.
What I see oftentimes whensomebody goes through a divorce
is they're like really trying tospeak as good as possible for
this person and keep a reallygood friendship and everything
else.
And if you're not clear withyour kids that you're done, that
you are never getting backtogether, their little minds,
especially if they're young,will constantly think oh man,
(31:57):
mommy and daddy are going to getback together.
Their little minds, especiallyif they're young, will
constantly think oh man, mommyand daddy are going to get back
together.
That is super unhealthy.
Even if you do get backtogether one day great, let it
happen.
But don't speak that way toyour kids ever.
Be very clear we are done, weare divorced, we are never
(32:18):
getting back together and that'sokay.
We both love you.
There's different households,there's a lot of different
things you can say, but do notkeep that kids open.
That's so unhealthy and I'veseen a lot of people do that.
So, going back to takingrelationships post-divorce, two
biggest ones the ex-relationshipor the kid's mom relationship
(32:38):
or whatever, and I just talkedabout the two sides of that.
The second one, which is thebiggest one Now there's a whole
lot of others Like if I picked anumber three, there'd be family
and friends and community.
All that sort of stuff changes.
But the second, really big oneis dating.
And I'll tell you what.
When I interviewed people for mybook, I interviewed several
people, asked them what theythought the biggest traps in
(33:01):
their divorce were.
It was ironic because we allhad the same answer for all five
of them.
It was shocking.
After I interviewed dozens ofpeople, but the number one thing
that I heard from the mostpeople was I started dating too
soon, and I heard that fromsomebody who started dating the
next day.
I heard that from somebody thatstarted dating years later.
(33:24):
It was the same answer.
The timeframe didn't matter.
It was that they started datingin a state where they were not
complete themselves, they werenot living their authentic
identity, they were not healthythemselves.
Now that doesn't mean you haveto be a hundred percent healthy.
None of us are.
If I waited for that, I'd neverdate, ever again.
But what it does mean is that Ineed to be healthy enough to
(33:45):
where I can be a healthyindividual meeting another
healthy individual.
And for the most part, peoplestart dating because they get
lonely and because they feel badand because they want somebody
to fill some sort of hole thatthey're not going to fill.
We all do it, I did it.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
I was sitting there thinkingabout which guy was I in or in
these relationships?
Right, and taking it, I'mdefinitely was that that guy?
That, while I didn't speakharshly about my kid's mom, she
was definitely an ex, and soit's a great nuance and reframe
about considering about howimportant while I may not agree
(34:26):
and obviously our relationshipdidn't work out that we could be
together.
They're still my boy's mom andthey still look up to her and
they still see her as their mom,which is fantastic, because
there are those kids that,because of for whatever reason
that they totally disassociatewith one of the one of the
parents that I'm happy to seethat relationship is still
(34:49):
strong with them.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Yeah, here's the thing, though Like you got to
let kids, they will make theirown decision about both of their
parents, and if you try tomeddle with that or manipulate
that at all, they're make theirown decision about both of their
parents, and if you try tomeddle with that or manipulate
that at all, they're also goingto eventually see that, even if
they're young.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
And when they see that bad news for you and your
relationship with your kids, I'mjust telling you you got to let
the kids come up with their ownconclusion, and that is so much
easier said than done.
I've definitely let things slipthat I wish I hadn't.
Of course I have.
I've tried my best not to, butI definitely have, and there's
probably been elements wherethey're like oh man, he thinks
(35:28):
this about mom, which is abummer, and I wish I wouldn't
have done any of those things.
But I try my best to just letthem have whatever opinion they
need to have.
And now my oldest is only 12.
So they're all still prettyyoung, but even with my oldest
now I've started to just be alittle bit more.
Let's talk about this conceptfor a second.
(35:49):
There's a difference betweenhonesty and privacy, so you can
be honest with your kids and notshare every single detail.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
And that's really critical because at age
appropriate levels, it's ageappropriate to share some
details.
It's not appropriate to shareother details.
If I were to sit down myyoungest was really little at
the time and this doesn't evenapply to me because there
weren't any affairs or anything.
But let's just say that thereis an affair and you sit down my
youngest was really little atthe time and this doesn't even
apply to me because thereweren't any affairs or anything.
But let's just say that thereis an affair and you sit down
and you explain to yourfive-year-old the affair that
(36:24):
happened.
That's completely inappropriate.
Yes, I would call that childabuse.
That is completelyinappropriate.
If your adult son comes to youat 22 and says I really want to
know what happened to your dadDid mom have an affair?
Then you have a choice to make.
If you decide that you want totell him that information, why
(36:45):
not?
He's 22 years old.
You have to decide if that's agood for you and your
relationship with him.
You can still choose not to,but it's very different telling
him at 22 than telling him atfour.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
So you got to figure out age appropriate ways of
having these conversations forsure.
But the other thing is it'sjust going to look bad on you.
If you are trying to, kids canpick up on it.
They see, when people aretrying to manipulate them, when
they're trying to convince themeven little kids do they just do
.
Yeah, I would like the, I likethe direction that we're talking
about this with.
You know, manipulate them whenthey're trying to convince them.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Even little kids do they just do.
Yeah, I like the.
I like the direction that we'retalking about this with.
You know, being in the divorcespace now and having kids, my
children are in their early 30sand so just recently, like this
past year so we had a bit of astruggle that our their mom and
I split when they werepreschoolers, and so it's been
quite a number of years and it'salways been a bit of a distant
(37:40):
relationship with my two boysfor several reasons.
But my youngest one now hasstarted to dad's at that point
where I'm starting to be coolagain to hang out with and you
want to spend a little bit.
He's asking for advice, and sowe've got a beautiful backyard,
a fire pit and that, and so thispast summer he was over, he'd
(38:01):
come by and have a chat and he'sasking me about things and
about relationships, and whileit wasn't directly about my
marriage with his mom, he wantedto use it as an analogy because
he's 30.
And so to your point betweenhonesty and privacy.
So it was more of aconversation about conceptual
things, because he was goingthrough some stuff in his
(38:23):
relationship and said, okay,this is what I'm witnessing, how
your relationship's unfolding,and this is how similar how it
looked in my relationship withyour mom.
So we got into talking aboutthings about trust in the
relationship and when, how andhow he was showing up and what's
what is acceptable for him toallow to happen and not, and
(38:45):
what are the potential outcomesof all of that.
And so it really is importantto understand at what age level
are you talking to your childrenwith that, because they may not
be ready for all of this stuff,and even at 30 again, even
though I was pretty mindfulabout he doesn't need to know
the gory details.
That doesn't it's, I'm sure onyour podcast, interviewing guys
(39:09):
have gone through some prettyhorrific stuff.
It's not about the detail orthe gore or the horror of it.
It's about thattransformational journey that
they've gone through.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I make it very clear to people when I'm coming on a
podcast, because a lot of peoplewant to hear specifics about my
story and that sort of thing.
And one thing that I makereally clear whenever I guest on
a podcast is I'm not here tothrow anyone under the bus ever.
I'm more interested in what'sbetter for your audience, or any
audience, is to hear how thistransformed my life so that can
(39:43):
be an inspiration to them andhow that might transform their
life.
No one is better by me comingon here and bitching about
whatever my ex did 100%.
It just doesn't make anybodybetter.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
And I would also caution men that are watching
and listening to this right now.
Be even cautious when you talkto your bros about this sort of
thing as well, because the moreyou reiterate something in your
head, the more you believe it.
It's like the concept of a lotof guys get upset with me when
(40:17):
they're out there in the datingworld and I'm in the dating
world as well, so I understandthis and they'll read a dating
profile or meet with a woman orwhatever, and they'll hear men
are blank, women are blank.
Men are always blank.
The more you say that, even ifyou're joking, the more your
(40:38):
brain believes it.
Yeah, so stop saying it,because it's not true.
There is no.
Men are always blank, women arealways, but there is no
statement that's true of right.
There just isn't.
So stop saying it, and I wouldencourage you to stop saying
that in your relationships aswell, because I'm again.
I've done this plenty of times,so I'm not saying I figured
(41:00):
this out.
I just know the more of thosethoughts that I allow to enter
my mind, even if somebody elseis saying it.
Let's take this one stepfurther.
Even if somebody else is, sheis blank.
If you don't correct them.
You believe it Even if youdon't believe it.
You believe it even if youdon't believe it.
(41:21):
It's subtle, it's very subtle.
But if you are constantlytalking to your parent or your
sibling or your friend andthey're constantly saying
whatever about your ex orwhoever it's about, if you're
not correcting it, you're notcorrecting your brain and you're
just allowing it to go in yourbrain and eventually it's going
to come out in ways that youdon't expect.
It really is so real quick too,alan, before I forget, I wanted
(41:44):
to offer a resource to all yourlisteners and viewers as well.
So that ebook that you mentionedthe five traps men face when
going through divorce and how totriumph over them you can feel
free to go on Amazon right now,look up my name and go buy it.
Or, if you want, reach out tome on Instagram.
Send me a message.
(42:09):
My handle I'll give it to youfor the show notes later.
I think the one you have isactually inaccurate.
My Instagram handle is Josh thederelict.
D E R E L I C T.
So, josh the derelict, if youjust send me-E-L-I-C-T.
So, josh the Derelict, if youjust send me a message on
Instagram, please send me thesewords revolutionary ebook
Because that'll remind me thatit's coming from the
Revolutionary man podcast, wherewe are right now, and that you
(42:30):
want the ebook.
So send me revolutionary ebookto Josh the Derelict and I will
send you a copy of it for free.
Love that, brother Love that andhonestly, even if you already
gone through a divorce, send itanyway.
I tell you there are things inthat book that you have not done
yet or that you could do better.
I promise you, because when Iread that book myself and I
(42:53):
wrote it I'm like man, I coulddo better at this.
So read it and then, if youwant additional, I'll add one
other thing.
If you also want additionalresources like we're talking
about age, appropriate ways oftalking about divorce, things
like that Send me a message atJosh the derelict and I'm happy
to send you other resources aswell, other books that I have
(43:15):
Happy to send you otherresources as well.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Other books that I have, et cetera, love that, I
love that.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
I'm really sorry to pot, Can you?
Can I pause for just one second?
I have to grab something in theroom.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
I apologize, you know one of the last things, a
couple of things.
I want to summarize what we'vebeen talking about and really
we've been teasing all aroundthe idea of leadership and
really about being strongleaders.
If you were to come across aman right now who is struggling
either with his personal or hisprofessional life and looking
for some help, what advice wouldyou be giving him?
Speaker 3 (43:46):
today.
That's a great question andyou're actually bringing up
something that I wanted to sayearlier that I forgot.
So I appreciate you saying thatwhen we have all this
conversation about takingresponsibility for your action
and it goes back to let's goback to the definition of
failure.
If you look up the definitionof failure, the first definition
(44:08):
is not succeeding, which is nota helpful definition.
If you look at the seconddefinition of failure, it says
that something you wereintending to do I'm paraphrasing
here, of course something thatyou were intending to do, some
sort of goal that you'reintending to do, was not
accomplished.
So all failure is that somebodyset out for something and it
(44:30):
didn't happen.
Now, if that's the definitionof failure, that means I fail
every single day of my life.
Now, if that's the definitionof failure, that means I fail
every single day of my life.
If I was trying to walk acrossthe room without tripping and I
trip, that's a failure.
But we have in our mind that afailure means I'm a failure as a
person.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
It turns into shame.
It turns into I am a terribleperson, I'm worthless and it's
not even worth sticking around.
So here's something that Ithink is really important for
everybody to hear this is not amessage of pick up yourself by
your bootstraps and try again.
That's not what we're sayinghere.
Failure is an opportunity tohave some awareness of what's
(45:16):
going on in your life, to beconfident, gentle and loving
with yourself through that, tostay curious about what's going
on and then figure out what youwant for your life.
That's it.
It's a really simple process.
The very first step, which Iwould say is probably the most
important process, the veryfirst step, which I would say is
(45:38):
probably the most important, isjust staying curious.
It's easy for me, and I think itis for us as men in general, to
see a problem and want to fixit, to see something that's
wrong and say that's wrong.
It's not wrong, it's justdifferent than we want it to be.
So the very first thing I haveto do to be gentle with myself
is to be curious about whatabout this is wrong?
(46:00):
Right, what about this is wrong?
I'll put it in quotes whatabout this is what I don't want
it to be, and if I can staycurious about that, then I can
be honest with myself about whatit is where I'm at right now
and where I want to go.
There's no shame in that,because that doesn't mean I
failed as a person.
(46:20):
It just means that I'm in adifferent spot than where I want
to be.
If I can do that in a curiousway without shaming myself, it's
much easier to come up with agame plan of what to do next.
If you shame yourself and yousay that you're a shitty person,
it's really hard to build agame plan around that, because
that just turns into a cycle ofI'm terrible and this is
(46:43):
terrible and everything'sterrible and we're all terrible.
It just doesn't help anybody.
So I would say the first thingis just be curious about what
you're feeling.
And this could be a very simpleexercise where you literally
take out a notepad and justwrite down Just be curious.
Pretend like you are anobserver of yourself.
If you were viewing somebodyelse acting the way that you're
(47:06):
acting and thinking what you'rethinking, and you're viewing
them in a coffee shop, whatwould you write about them?
Let's say that you're a poet.
You just want to write downwhatever it is that you see
about that person, feel the sameway about yourself, then be
curious about what you read andbe very aware if there's any
judgment that you're giving ofyourself while you're reading
(47:28):
this, Because even if you'recurious during that, you might
read it and then judge yourselfLike that's wrong, that's wrong,
that's wrong, that's wrong.
During that, you might read itand then judge yourself that's
wrong, that's wrong, that'swrong, that's wrong.
It's part of the reason not totoot my own horn or your own
horn, alan, but it's part of thereason I personally, for myself
, need a coach in my life.
I have multiple coaches in mylife, and it's the same reason I
coach other men, because weneed somebody that can not BS us
(47:52):
and be honest with us, but alsobe gentle and curious with us
to help us discover what'sactually going on in our life,
and, frankly, I'm not alwaysgood about that.
I'm much better at it withother people than I am myself,
though Cause for myself, I'lllook at something and be like
you, piece of shit, figure thisout.
I don't generally say that toother people.
(48:12):
I will say that to men, though,more than my children.
So if you have a hard time withthis and you're listening to
this.
Think about it like you'resaying it to your little girl or
your little boy.
How are you going to speak tothem?
And I hope that you're a goodparent that would be loving and
caring with that little boy orthat little girl.
(48:33):
So be loving and caring withyourself.
It does not help for you justto tell yourself that you're bad
in whatever circumstance.
And then what I would say istwo things.
Number one get a coach, becausethe coach is specifically
trained on how to do this.
Reach out to Alan, reach out tome.
You have two people right herethat are willing to help you.
And then, number three, take agood long hard.
(48:58):
Look at the five people thatare in your biggest circle of
influence, the people you spendthe most time with and, more
importantly, the people thatinfluence you the most, because
whoever those people are is whoyou will become and who you are,
whether you want to admit it ornot.
There was a Harvard study doneseveral years ago about this,
and what he discovered is thatthe five people that are most
(49:20):
influential in your lifedetermine wait for it 90% of
your success 90%.
So whoever you're surroundingyourself with, that's who you're
going to become.
So if you want to become thisnext best version of yourself,
you got to make sure that you'resurrounding yourself with other
people that want to become thenext best version of themselves.
(49:42):
If you want to be a personthat's accountable to their
actions and has somebody callingyou out for stuff when you're
not doing it, you got to makesure that you're around people
that are willing to call you outand that can be called out by
you.
I found this out the hard way.
I've had to transition severalfriendships when I've gotten to
a point with those friendships,as deep as our roots were Once,
(50:05):
I realized that I was on thispath, I was willing to be called
out, I was willing to do thesethings, et cetera.
This person wasn't doesn't makeme good or bad, doesn't make
them good or bad.
It just means are we on thesame path or are we not?
Because if we're not on thesame path, there's only so much
value we can bring to ourselves,our lives, our relationship.
(50:26):
And a lot of people thinkthat's really harsh if I remove
them more from my world.
First of all, you don't have tocompletely remove them from
your world.
This is not a black or whitething.
You don't have to completelyremove them from your world.
This is not a black or whitething.
You don't have to be extremeabout it.
You just might have to setdifferent boundaries, different
rules around it.
But the other thing is you'realso hurting them by keeping
them in your life, because ifthey're on this path and you're
on this path, you're hurtingthem by not allowing them the
(50:48):
opportunity to find other peoplethat are on this path.
Yes, whatever that path is.
That's true in relationships.
It's true in romanticrelationships, it's true with
spouses, it's true withfriendships.
It's just true.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
Yeah, that is so true .
That is so true.
You talked about the Harvardstudy and, I think, of Jim Rohn
the great.
Jim Rohn used to say that aswell we will become the average
of the five people we hangaround with the most, and it
really is important to recognizewho is in our circle of
influence and what's happeningwith us.
And it does mean makingdecisions on, yes, how often
(51:22):
maybe you're hanging out andspending time with certain
individuals, and those can betough decisions, but if you're
truly wanting to raise the levelthat you show up as a husband,
a father, a leader, this is thework that we've been called to
do.
I just want to say, josh, Ijust love today's conversation
and sharing with us the wisdomof what it means for us to
(51:43):
reclaim our identity, redefiningmasculinity and really
embracing being leaders in ourlives.
And if men are interested ingetting a hold of you and
participating in your work,what's the best way for them to
do that?
Speaker 3 (51:55):
I would say Instagram is the best.
Just reach out to me, josh thederelict.
I answer all of my own messages.
I'm on there every single day,multiple times a day, messaging
people.
I probably message I don't know.
There's a lot of people everysingle day, so message me there.
That's probably the best way.
If you don't have Instagram oryou think, oh, I don't want to
go that way, that's probably thebest way.
If you don't have Instagram oryou think I don't want to go
(52:15):
that way, that's fine, go to thederelictbiz.
That's the website that givesall the contact information,
other ways of getting hold of me, shows, the YouTube channel,
the TikTok, the email, whateverway you want to go from there.
Speaker 1 (52:28):
You betcha buddy.
So I want to make sure thatwherever you are hiding on the
internet, we're going to makesure that people can go and find
you and get a hold of you.
I love today's conversation,josh.
Keep up the great work, myfriend.
Have a great one.
Speaker 3 (52:41):
Thanks, alan, appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (52:51):
Thank you for listening to the Revolutionary
man podcast.
Are you ready to own yourdestiny, to become more the man
you are listening to theRevolutionary man podcast?
Are you ready to own yourdestiny, to become more the man
you are destined to be?
Join the brotherhood that isthe Awakened man at
theawakendmannet and startforging a new destiny today.
I just want you for one moment to imagine living in
a world, or navigating yourselfin a world, where you have your
sense of self, masculinity andleadership are constantly being
challenged by societal norms andpressures.
As men, you're expected toexcel in relationships, career,
in our family life, but whathappens when you're not given
(00:24):
the tools or even theunderstanding to do so?
How do we break through thisnoise and reclaim our identity
and our authentic purpose?
So too often for men, we findourselves stuck in roles defined
by others, disconnected fromour own values and
self-authenticity, and so theresult of this is that it's a
life that feels constrained,unfulfilled and far from the
(00:50):
greatness that we're trulycapable of achieving.
And so, in today's episode,we're going to explore the deep
and unfound, often unspoken,struggles men face in covering
how to rediscover authenticmasculinity, foster stronger
relationships and embrace aleadership in every aspect of
our life.
This is going to be more thanjust about personal growth.
It's about really stepping intoour purpose that has the power
to transform not only the lifethat we live, but the lives
(01:13):
around us as well.
And before we get into today'stopic, let's take a moment to
talk about something else thatcould potentially change your
life, because we all know howhard it is to stay true to
ourselves and in a world that'sconstantly pulling us in
different directions.
So the pressures for us is toprovide, perform, persevere and
leave us feeling disconnected,like we're drifting further from
(01:36):
the men we want to be.
So if you've ever felt stuck orfrustrated and unsure of how to
bridge the gap between the lifeyou have, the life you want,
then let let me introduce you toliving with integrity.
It's more than just a program.
It's a roadmap oftransformation.
You're going to learn how toalign your actions with your
values, rebuild your meaningfulconnections and create a legacy
(01:57):
that truly matters.
So if you're ready to takecontrol of your life with
purpose, become the family manthat your family is actually
looking for in your community inthe future.
That really needs you to be.
I'm going to challenge you tostart today.
Just go to thememberstheawakenedmannet and
start your journey by taking theintegrity challenge today,
(02:18):
because the only thing standingbetween you and the life you're
capable of is the decision totake the first step, and with
that, let's get on with today'sepisode.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
The average man today is sleepwalking through life,
many never reaching their truepotential, let alone ever
crossing the finish line toliving a purposeful life.
Yet the hunger still exists,albeit buried amidst his
cluttered mind, misguidedbeliefs and values that no
longer serve him.
It's time to align yourself forgreatness.
(02:52):
It's time to become arevolutionary man.
Stay strong, my brother.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Welcome everyone to the Revolutionary man podcast.
My name is Alan DeMato, I'm thefounder of the Awakened man
movement, and so, before we getstarted, allow me to ask you a
couple of questions.
How can you understand andembrace authentic masculinity
and transform not only your lifebut also your relationship and
your leadership style, and whatsocietal pressures might be
(03:24):
holding you back from fullystepping into your identity as a
man, and how can you overcomethese?
The journey to authenticmasculinity and leadership
begins with understandingyourself and challenging the
societal norms that hold us back, and today we're going to
explore how reclaiming youridentity can lead to deeper
relationships, greaterconfidence and more powerful
(03:46):
purpose.
So allow me to introduce myguest who's going to walk us
through all of this today.
Josh Tomiani is a coach,entrepreneur and host of the
Derelict Podcast, where hecreates a space for men to be
real about their struggles andfailures.
Over 18 years, he's built asuccessful financial planning
companies and, while learningfrom the setbacks in marriage,
(04:08):
business and parenting, and somuch more, josh believes the
failure is stepping is thestepping stone to success and
shares his journey to helpothers navigate their own
challenges.
And he's also a father of free,passionate about adventure,
travel, living with authenticity.
And I always say if you reallywant to learn something about
yourself, get married, have kidsand start a business.
(04:31):
And so, josh, you're doing allthree of those.
I'm looking forward to havingyou on the show.
How are things, my friend?
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Thank you, alan.
That was quite the introduction.
Quite a bunch to live up to.
I'll try my best.
I'm sure they're doing great.
I my best.
I'm sure they're doing great,I'm doing great.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
We're just having a conversation, right before it
started, about some of yourupcoming travels and I love to
travel as well, so I'm excited.
Let's dive in.
Yeah, absolutely.
Here on the revolutionary manpodcast, Josh, we always talk
about everyone being on theirown hero's journey.
We call it a hero's quest, andso my first question to you and
I've tweaked it a little bit isto tell us about your life and
rebirth moment.
What's that moment that reallyshaped your life and how did
that experience shape you intothe man you are today and the
(05:12):
work that you're doing?
Speaker 3 (05:14):
It's a good question.
I've had several of those.
I can't point to just one.
I usually call them spiritualawakenings.
I think that, no matter whatyou believe religious, spiritual
, whatever there are thesemoments in our lives where we
have this awakening and werealize whatever version of
ourself needs to be shed Kind oflike a lizard right, like we
got to get rid of thatexoskeleton and move on to
(05:35):
whatever the next version ofourselves are.
Or we could always choose notto do that and just live
miserably and have thatexoskeleton slowly suffer us to
death.
We could do that, I would say.
The most recent one that I'vehad was probably my third
midlife crisis that I've had.
I started young, but this oneactually was when I was turning
(05:56):
40.
And when I was turning 40, Iasked myself a very simple
question.
I was 39 years old, obviously,and I said hey, josh, I had this
conversation with myself, whichsometimes I do.
I said, josh, what is yourmission?
What is your purpose?
What is your mission?
What are you?
(06:17):
Why are you here on this planetwhen you're 50?
That was my question to myself,and I came up with a lot of
answers.
My, the majority of my answerswere very in line with what
you're doing on your podcast,which is part of the reason I
decided to be a guest on here,and I really appreciate coach
people, which I currently do.
(06:37):
But even bigger than that was totry to coach men into their
authentic masculinity,specifically men that are in
that midlife period that oftenget overlooked or often get told
(07:00):
not to live in theirmasculinity by our world.
They're often told hey, if youlive in your masculinity, it's
toxic, it's evil, it'schauvinistic, and instead what
you should do is just get rid ofall that nasty masculinity
stuff and just be feminine, andthere's nothing wrong.
We all have femininity andmasculinity.
(07:21):
We're not talking about male,female here.
Every single man, every singlewoman has both.
The majority of men havemajority masculine traits.
The majority of women havemajority feminine traits, so
that's who I'm really speakingto right now.
So to tell a man that hasmajority masculine traits that
he needs to get rid of all ofthose and have feminine traits
(07:41):
instead makes him inauthentic.
The same way it would be sayingthat to a woman who has
primarily feminine traits.
So I realized that my purposein life was to help men
rediscover what that looks likein their life and to help coach
them through that.
A very sobering statistic that Italk about a lot when I guest
(08:02):
on podcasts is that I don't knowif this is true in Canada I'm
in the United States but I doknow that in the United States,
the highest rate of suicideamong any group is 35 to 50 year
old men.
Why is that?
It's the prime of our life.
I think both of us are at leastclose to that bucket, if not in
(08:24):
that bucket.
Why is that?
Why are so many men justdeciding to end it all in the
prime of their life, whenthey've really gotten their
career underway?
They probably have their familyunderway, they have an idea of
who they are as a person and Ithink, frankly, it's not.
I'm not blaming this on society,but I think it's because men
(08:45):
get to a point where they thinkI'm not enough or whatever it is
that I thought I was.
I can't be and I don't know howto be the authentic version of
myself, and whatever thisversion is I don't like.
Therefore, I just don't know ifit's worth trying anymore, and
it's really incredibly sad, andmy whole mission and passion in
(09:09):
life is to help be there for menwhen I didn't have someone
there for me in my darkest ofdays, whether that meant a
business failure, the divorcethat I went through, you name it
.
I failed at everything, and allfailure is like you said
earlier.
It just means that you didn'tdo what you're trying to do, if
(09:29):
that's the definition.
I fail every single day, solet's not be scared of the word,
but I want to be there for menthat don't know where to go next
, and they don't necessarilyhave to be suicidal.
That's an extreme example, butjust a man that wants to go to
the next version of himself andthere's just something holding
him back.
And, by the way, alan, I don'thave this figured out.
(09:52):
Like I still deal with thisstuff too.
I have limiting mindsets andbeliefs every single day of my
life.
So I'm not saying I've figuredit out.
I've just helped enough menwalk through it that I can see
the signs, I can see thepatterns and, frankly, I have
coaches in my own life because Iknow that I need the same thing
just like I try to help withother men.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah, josh, all of what you just said just
resonates so deeply with me andour work that we're doing here
as well, because I think we havethose death and rebirth
experiences in our life, andit's because it helps us look at
what's working and not working.
And, to your point, we caneither choose to do something
about it or we can allow thisexoskeleton to start to actually
constrict us and choke us.
And I think it's reallyimportant that there are more of
(10:39):
us doing men's work and doingthis, doing it in a way that
resonates with us, because thenwe're being authentic.
And I say the same thing to myguys if you're looking for a
guru program, this is not theprogram for you.
I've figured out a couple ofthings, a few things that might
be down the path a littlefurther in different areas of
life, and but we need to do thisas a group.
(10:59):
As a group, we learned to be.
We learned about healthymasculinity and what, who we are
as men by being around othermen.
And so when you started to talkabout that and your the stats
about suicide, those arevirtually identical in Canada as
well something like four timesas many men commit suicide as
women do, and in the top fiveeven at 60'm, 58, I'll be 59
(11:25):
here this year, it's the statsdon't get any better for men.
And so, as we get older, if westill haven't accomplished what
we felt we wanted to in our 20s,and we're getting that close to
that edge of retirement andthere isn't something for us to
go forward to or go on to nextto, it's even a bigger problem.
(11:49):
And so let's talk a little bitabout this work that you're
doing, and so grateful thatyou're doing it, but you also
talk about, excuse me, not onlyis it is authentic masculinity,
about living truly with whatyour values are, but how are you
employing this in your life andnow leading other men to do it?
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Uh, yeah, sure, A lot of it is.
Just I don't know how to answerthat question.
It's a very good question, I'mjust not sure how to put it in a
little package bow.
To be honest with you, I thinkwhere it all starts is awareness
, and I think, in general, asmen and any men that are
listening or watching, feel freeto reach out to me and tell me
(12:33):
that you disagree.
That's fine.
But I think in general as men,we have not only the societal
expectation, but expectationfrom other men, expectation from
people that we talk to,expectation from our family,
friends, etc.
That somehow we have to figureit out.
That we, as my grandpa, used tosay, just pick yourself up by
(12:55):
your bootstraps and try again.
You fall off the horse, you getback on it, you fall down, you
pick yourself back up, then it'soh.
The answer is always just do itagain.
It's never become aware ofwhat's happening, understand
what's actually going on withinyou so that you can then become
a better person.
It's just go do it again, andthat's not always the answer.
(13:17):
The answer isn't always just godo something.
I know a lot of guys like to saythis on social media because
it's an easy social media clipJust do stuff, don't do anything
else, just do stuff.
Okay, that's fine to a degree,but that also is a key
prescription of somebody whokeeps just doing stuff and then
drops dead at 42.
And everyone's like whathappened?
(13:39):
The guy was healthy, he ran, hedieted, he did all these things
.
Now he's dead.
That's because he just stuffedthings in his life forever.
He just kept doing stuff andthen he's out.
So I don't know, I don't likethat prescription myself, but
the other side of it, the answerwe, I think, so often get in
(14:00):
our society, is this kind offeminized version of a man that
sits around, talks about hisfeelings all the time, cries,
wears mascara, does all thethings of oh, I'm just going to
be this emotional mess.
And that's not femininityeither, by the way.
This is just some weird versionof femininity that society
(14:23):
likes to bring along because,for whatever reason, it's
dramatic and everything elsethat's not any better either.
That's not the answer, it's.
I talk about this sometimes.
I don't actually believe in theterm toxic masculinity.
Let me explain for a second why.
I'm not saying there's nottoxic individuals, there are
(14:44):
toxic men.
There's also toxic women.
So let's not be sexist here.
There's toxic everybody.
There's people that act in avery toxic way.
I personally don't believe thatanybody that's acting toxic is
acting out of their true nature,because I believe people in
their true nature are beautiful,wonderful created beings.
But I do believe that peopleact in toxic ways for whatever
(15:08):
reason.
If a man is acting toxic,that's not their masculinity.
Their masculinity is pure, it'sauthentic.
Masculinity is a beautifulthing, just like femininity is.
If somebody is acting out oftheir femininity or their true
masculinity, they're not actingtoxic.
So I think part of the problemwith even calling it toxic
(15:29):
masculinity is that you'rerelating masculinity.
Say that five times, real fast.
You're relating masculinity totoxicity, and those two should
not be related.
There is toxicity and there ismasculinity.
So if somebody is acting toxic,say they're acting toxic.
I have no problem with thatwhatsoever.
There are people that act toxicbut it's not because of their
(15:53):
masculinity, that's right.
That act toxic but it's notbecause of their masculinity,
that's right.
So the problem with calling ittoxic masculinity is that the
only answer for that is theopposite, which is femininity.
Then you have a society thatjust adds femininity.
Anytime masculinity is broughtup, because masculinity itself
then ends up being seen as toxicor evil, or chauvinistic or bad
(16:15):
ends up being seen as toxic, orevil, or chauvinistic or bad.
And now you have an overlyfeminized society where you're
missing the masculine traits.
And, by the way, the same thingcan happen.
If you have an overly masculinesociety and you're missing the
feminine traits, that alsodoesn't work well.
So I'm not saying one is betterthan the other.
Here I'm saying they'rebeautiful in how they work well.
(16:35):
So I'm not saying one is betterthan the other.
Here I'm saying they'rebeautiful in how they work
together.
Yes, it's true, and this is notalso like a straight gay thing
either.
In every couple, every couplethat lasts, every couple that
actually works well, there isgoing to be somebody who's
primarily masculine and somebodythat's primarily feminine.
There is going to be somebodywho's primarily masculine and
(16:56):
somebody that's primarilyfeminine.
Correct, mark my words twoprimarily feminine people
whether they're male or femaledoesn't matter don't work.
Two primarily masculine men, ormen or women just masculine
people do not work.
Yep, and what ends up happening?
What I've seen a lot is thatmen are told don't be masculine,
no-transcript each other for it, yes.
(17:43):
And then they're bitter andthey're resentful and it grows
and grows till one day, all of asudden, they get divorced and
all their friends sit around andsay they seem like such a great
couple.
What happened?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
it's so true, and I think what you've brought
dropped many things there and Ijust want to go back to.
You talked a lot about theseexpectations and I think that's
really important for us tounderstand is that when we
consider whether it's comingfrom societal, it's coming
through a front, through othermen, or it's coming from through
family, that how we embody thatsays a lot about who we are,
(18:17):
how we're identifying, and Ithink if there's important work
for us to do as men is torecognize where that, where our
identity, is coming from.
Not to say it to your point isnot to say that it's bad because
you're adopting it from otherplaces.
But but is it true for you,right?
Is it really true?
Because if it isn't, then itgoes back to your other point,
(18:39):
where you start raising I needto be today, I need to be more
feminine and more nurturing more, more caring more, and so you
start ramping that up and, whilethose are all excellent traits,
if you're not being decisivewhich is more of a masculine
trait, I'll suggest in instepping into it and being
involved in the in yourrelationships, then you're going
(19:02):
to be tired man because you'vegot this mask that you're
holding on and it's not who youare, and that's how we lose
respect.
And that's exactly what happenedin my first marriage and
married my high schoolsweetheart, but in the end, what
ended up happening is that wejust I was just totally
emasculated because I justthought I needed to be a nice
(19:23):
guy, and so when you fall intothat aspect, then she loses
respect for you and you loserespect for yourself because
you're not standing up, and Ithink that's so important.
The other piece I wanted tomention, just to touch on the
toxic masculinity I heardsomebody say the way they also
described it was that hurtpeople, and so when you look at
the behaviors, what's going onbehind it for them now maybe
(19:45):
it's a consistent behavior andthey are toxic as an individual,
but what got them to that point?
Maybe there's a way for us tolook at how we can show up as
father figures or leaders, thatto help them grow and move
through that transition andthrough that and I'm sure you do
that in your work, as we dohere, and so lots of great
(20:05):
points there.
I hope guys that are listeningor understanding what we're
saying is that there's a needfor both aspects of those
energies in in in life, and howwe dial them up or not really
impacts the success of ourrelationships.
Great points.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Agreed.
Just to reiterate, not everyman has primarily masculine
energy, correct, some men haveprimarily feminine energy, it's
just a lot less.
That's probably 80% of men haveprimarily masculine energy.
80% of women have primarilyfeminine energy, so that still
leaves 20% of men and women thatare on the other side.
So you have to understand whatyour primary energy is and how
(20:43):
to live authentically in thatenergy, because if you're living
authentically in that energy, alot of problems disappear.
Trust me they do, because I wasthe same way in my first
marriage as well, alan, where Iallowed myself to essentially
become emasculated as well andbecome in a lot of that kind of
(21:04):
it was more codependent and alsosome like feminine energy,
because I just was trying tokeep everything okay, yeah, and
I didn't man up.
And I don't mean man up likeeverybody means on social media,
where it's oh, you got to hitthe gym for four hours a day.
That's not what I'm talkingabout.
I'm saying living in my actualauthentic masculine energy yes
(21:24):
because here's the deal.
Here's a controversial take.
That's true.
Every feminist in the worldthat spouts feminism as loud as
possible, I don't care if it's aman or a female every feminist
in the entire world.
What they actually want is moremasculine energy in their life,
(21:45):
more healthy masculine energy.
Now they go about this bythinking that masculine energy
is toxic.
So they think the answer oftenis more feminine energy.
Ask any of them if they'rehappy with the results.
They're not.
Why they're not happy with theresults?
(22:06):
Because they're not seeing thathealthy masculine energy is
actually an answer to theproblem they have.
What they're also not seeing isthat oftentimes they bring on
masculine energy that's notauthentic to themselves.
So then a man often matchesthat with feminine energy that's
(22:27):
not authentically themselves.
And we're back to the samepoint we just talked about.
You have a woman who'sprimarily feminine energy acting
masculine.
You have a man who's primarymasculine energy acting
masculine.
You have a man who's primarymasculine energy acting feminine
.
It doesn't work.
Here's a better analogy, maybefor people that are listening
that are like I'm getting sostuck with this whole masculine
feminine thing because we'vesaid it a million times already
on this podcast.
Here's a better way of thinkingabout it.
(22:49):
Think about the time that youwere a chameleon.
Everybody's been a chameleon.
You've gone somewhere and youthought that you needed to act
in a certain way in order to fitin.
Maybe it was a golf countryclub and you were poor and you
realized, wow, maybe I need todress a little better, I need to
speak a little better, I needto not show the fact that I'm
(23:10):
missing five teeth, whatever, itis right.
You go to a symphony for thefirst time and you realize, oh
man, maybe I need to dress upfor this.
Maybe this is a differentenvironment than I'm used to.
Maybe you're used to beingdressed up and you go to a
client who is an electrician.
You show up in a three-piecesuit and everybody looks at you
sideways.
Who is this fool?
(23:31):
I don't want to listen to thisguy.
So it's not a better or worse.
It's just think about the timewhere you've been in this
situation.
Maybe it was with your spouse'sfriends and they're very
different than you.
They have very differentpolitical beliefs, or they have
very different religious beliefs, or whatever it is, and you
felt like you had to put on thissuit, you had to put on this
(23:52):
different skin.
Tell me one time you had to dothat and you felt completely
free and open and authentic inyourself.
It doesn't happen, right?
No, because you can't.
It's not authentically you.
You can pretend all you want.
Ask any actor.
I've been on stage, I've donesome minor acting.
(24:14):
I'm telling you, if you areacting a different role, you
just you do your best to try toget in the state of whatever
that person would be in, but atthe end of the day, it's not you
, and some of the most of thebest actors and actresses that
exist are the ones that playroles that fit well with
(24:35):
themselves Doesn't mean thatthey don't change things about
themselves, but the ones thatthey authentically can portray
come across better.
There's very few, I would sayeven actors that cannot do that.
If you look at most actors andactresses, there's a similar
theme with every role they play.
It might not be the same role,but there's a similar theme with
(24:57):
most of them, not all.
Some are like just crazy andthey can do anything and you're
like I don't understand how youdo all of these different roles,
but most of them there's somesort of similar thing.
It's the same thing as we arewith humans.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
And there's another thing that you brought up
earlier too, that I want to bereally careful of as well.
I'm not saying because society,your family, your friends, your
connections, et cetera,encourage you to be a certain
way.
I'm not saying that allows usany of us as men to play the
victim card.
No because playing the victimcard never helps.
(25:30):
No, it doesn't help me.
It doesn't help the people thatI'm playing it with, it just
doesn't help.
So I'm not saying it's anyoneelse's fault, but my own.
When I was that emasculatedmale in my marriage, I would not
blame that on my.
That was not my wife's fault.
I had the choice to do that.
I didn't have to do that.
That's on me.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
I have to take responsibility for that
(26:21):
no-transcript, somethingdifferent about that, whatever
that looks like.
And then, who do I aspire tobecome?
What do I want you talked aboutin your.
When you're opening there at 40, thinking about what is my life
going to look like at 50, andhow many men today you would
even think past this weekend,let alone 10 years.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
And so when you start , that was me for most of my
life.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Man, I get it yeah, and for in some parts of my life
today it's still like that, andI think that's why our work
this year with our group isreally about.
When I say living with, livingin, with integrity in our own
lives and different aspects, howare we showing up?
Are we showing up trulyauthentic?
What are my values and mybeliefs around finances,
(27:08):
relationships, my business,everything?
How am I showing up?
Because in some parts of ourlife, I bet you show up like
super well, you're totallyaligned, everything runs smooth.
And then there's, in some partsof our life, I bet you you show
up like super well, you'retotally aligned, everything that
runs smooth.
And then there's probably otherparts of your life that's not
the case.
And so how we show up and bemore consistent and be more
authentic really takes us intohaving some self-introspection,
(27:32):
and you wrote a book on thisstuff.
You talked to their books thefive traps that men face when we
go in divorce and that really,when we go through divorce, it
forces us to look at and takeresponsibility for things, and
so many of us have been throughthat really brutal ordeal.
And so in your book you talkabout one of the traps that we
fall into is tanking.
So tell me what your idea aboutthis tanking is and how it is
(27:55):
that this trap is burning menalive.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Sure, yeah.
The fifth trap is tankingrelationships post-divorce, and
I specifically speak of twodifferent categories of
relationships.
The number one relationship Idiscuss is the one with your
spouse or your ex, soon to be exspouse, and there's a couple of
different ways of taking thatrelationship and it's like a
(28:19):
spectrum.
So, on this side is be a dickat all times and just play the
victim and think that everythingis their fault and spew vomit
about them, not only to them,but to everyone that you know,
to your children, so on and soforth.
You You've met that person,maybe you've been that person, I
don't know, maybe we all have.
(28:41):
So there's that side of thingsand on this side of things it's
really critical.
It's like being careful.
What you're watching for yourmind, right?
If I watch the same horrificstuff all the time in my mind,
it's going to be implanted in mymind.
It just is so you can dowhatever you want.
You're an adult, I don't careEverybody watching this.
(29:03):
Do whatever you want, but ifyou consistently watch the same
thing, that's where you're goingto get programmed with.
It's like politics.
If you consistently watch thesame channel, that's saying the
same thing about the same party,about the same thing.
You're going to believe it, andthen you're going to believe it
, and then you're going to thinkit's your thought when it's
(29:23):
reality, it's just thepropaganda you've been fed into
your mind and you're believingthe propaganda.
Yeah, I don't care what side itis, it's the same thing over
here.
Even calling my ex-spouse myex-spouse does something
negative in my brain, becausewhat that does is it makes me
think of this person as a failedrelationship that somehow
screwed me over.
(29:44):
So one of the things I learnedvery early on going through my
divorce process is that I trynever to call her my ex spouse
and I may have already done itin this podcast, because I mess
up sometimes.
What I try to call her, everysingle time I'm referencing who
this person is my kid's mom.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Ah nice.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Cause that's always positive.
Yeah, because when I say mykid's mom, like it's impossible
for me not to get a little smilebecause I love my kids and I
want what's best for them.
So if I can think of her inthat context, it's much better
than that bitch who took half myshit and more of my stuff and
everything, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah and ruined my life.
(30:26):
Like it's just even the titlingof it, like I remember what I
even had to do on this side wasthat there were several people
in my life that were a team Josh, that were all for me during my
divorce and everything else,that I had to ask to stop
speaking negatively about her,because they would do it to try
to I don't know be on the samepage as me or something else.
(30:46):
I think they had the bestintentions, but after a while
I'm like, look, I need aspositive thoughts as possible
about this person.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
This person is my children's mother.
I want what's best for her.
I want what's best for her andI want her to have the best
relationship with my kids as shepossibly can Now.
Does that mean if there'stoxicity in there you don't need
to set boundaries?
And of course there's all thatstuff, but I still want the best
possible feelings about her.
(31:15):
The other side of that spectrumthat was long-winded, the other
side of that spectrum that waslong winded, the other side of
that spectrum is too cozy withthat person and that is the
person that goes back and Idon't know, maybe get a little
intimate, maybe have some sex,maybe kind of play around with
staying in the relationship.
And not only does that hurt you, what it really hurts is the
(31:36):
kids.
What I see oftentimes whensomebody goes through a divorce
is they're like really trying tospeak as good as possible for
this person and keep a reallygood friendship and everything
else.
And if you're not clear withyour kids that you're done, that
you are never getting backtogether, their little minds,
especially if they're young,will constantly think oh man,
(31:57):
mommy and daddy are going to getback together.
Their little minds, especiallyif they're young, will
constantly think oh man, mommyand daddy are going to get back
together.
That is super unhealthy.
Even if you do get backtogether one day great, let it
happen.
But don't speak that way toyour kids ever.
Be very clear we are done, weare divorced, we are never
(32:18):
getting back together and that'sokay.
We both love you.
There's different households,there's a lot of different
things you can say, but do notkeep that kids open.
That's so unhealthy and I'veseen a lot of people do that.
So, going back to takingrelationships post-divorce, two
biggest ones the ex-relationshipor the kid's mom relationship
(32:38):
or whatever, and I just talkedabout the two sides of that.
The second one, which is thebiggest one Now there's a whole
lot of others Like if I picked anumber three, there'd be family
and friends and community.
All that sort of stuff changes.
But the second, really big oneis dating.
And I'll tell you what.
When I interviewed people for mybook, I interviewed several
people, asked them what theythought the biggest traps in
(33:01):
their divorce were.
It was ironic because we allhad the same answer for all five
of them.
It was shocking.
After I interviewed dozens ofpeople, but the number one thing
that I heard from the mostpeople was I started dating too
soon, and I heard that fromsomebody who started dating the
next day.
I heard that from somebody thatstarted dating years later.
(33:24):
It was the same answer.
The timeframe didn't matter.
It was that they started datingin a state where they were not
complete themselves, they werenot living their authentic
identity, they were not healthythemselves.
Now that doesn't mean you haveto be a hundred percent healthy.
None of us are.
If I waited for that, I'd neverdate, ever again.
But what it does mean is that Ineed to be healthy enough to
(33:45):
where I can be a healthyindividual meeting another
healthy individual.
And for the most part, peoplestart dating because they get
lonely and because they feel badand because they want somebody
to fill some sort of hole thatthey're not going to fill.
We all do it, I did it.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
I was sitting there thinkingabout which guy was I in or in
these relationships?
Right, and taking it, I'mdefinitely was that that guy?
That, while I didn't speakharshly about my kid's mom, she
was definitely an ex, and soit's a great nuance and reframe
about considering about howimportant while I may not agree
(34:26):
and obviously our relationshipdidn't work out that we could be
together.
They're still my boy's mom andthey still look up to her and
they still see her as their mom,which is fantastic, because
there are those kids that,because of for whatever reason
that they totally disassociatewith one of the one of the
parents that I'm happy to seethat relationship is still
(34:49):
strong with them.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Yeah, here's the thing, though Like you got to
let kids, they will make theirown decision about both of their
parents, and if you try tomeddle with that or manipulate
that at all, they're make theirown decision about both of their
parents, and if you try tomeddle with that or manipulate
that at all, they're also goingto eventually see that, even if
they're young.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
And when they see that bad news for you and your
relationship with your kids, I'mjust telling you you got to let
the kids come up with their ownconclusion, and that is so much
easier said than done.
I've definitely let things slipthat I wish I hadn't.
Of course I have.
I've tried my best not to, butI definitely have, and there's
probably been elements wherethey're like oh man, he thinks
(35:28):
this about mom, which is abummer, and I wish I wouldn't
have done any of those things.
But I try my best to just letthem have whatever opinion they
need to have.
And now my oldest is only 12.
So they're all still prettyyoung, but even with my oldest
now I've started to just be alittle bit more.
Let's talk about this conceptfor a second.
(35:49):
There's a difference betweenhonesty and privacy, so you can
be honest with your kids and notshare every single detail.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
And that's really critical because at age
appropriate levels, it's ageappropriate to share some
details.
It's not appropriate to shareother details.
If I were to sit down myyoungest was really little at
the time and this doesn't evenapply to me because there
weren't any affairs or anything.
But let's just say that thereis an affair and you sit down my
youngest was really little atthe time and this doesn't even
apply to me because thereweren't any affairs or anything.
But let's just say that thereis an affair and you sit down
and you explain to yourfive-year-old the affair that
(36:24):
happened.
That's completely inappropriate.
Yes, I would call that childabuse.
That is completelyinappropriate.
If your adult son comes to youat 22 and says I really want to
know what happened to your dadDid mom have an affair?
Then you have a choice to make.
If you decide that you want totell him that information, why
(36:45):
not?
He's 22 years old.
You have to decide if that's agood for you and your
relationship with him.
You can still choose not to,but it's very different telling
him at 22 than telling him atfour.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
So you got to figure out age appropriate ways of
having these conversations forsure.
But the other thing is it'sjust going to look bad on you.
If you are trying to, kids canpick up on it.
They see, when people aretrying to manipulate them, when
they're trying to convince themeven little kids do they just do
.
Yeah, I would like the, I likethe direction that we're talking
about this with.
You know, manipulate them whenthey're trying to convince them.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Even little kids do they just do.
Yeah, I like the.
I like the direction that we'retalking about this with.
You know, being in the divorcespace now and having kids, my
children are in their early 30sand so just recently, like this
past year so we had a bit of astruggle that our their mom and
I split when they werepreschoolers, and so it's been
quite a number of years and it'salways been a bit of a distant
(37:40):
relationship with my two boysfor several reasons.
But my youngest one now hasstarted to dad's at that point
where I'm starting to be coolagain to hang out with and you
want to spend a little bit.
He's asking for advice, and sowe've got a beautiful backyard,
a fire pit and that, and so thispast summer he was over, he'd
(38:01):
come by and have a chat and he'sasking me about things and
about relationships, and whileit wasn't directly about my
marriage with his mom, he wantedto use it as an analogy because
he's 30.
And so to your point betweenhonesty and privacy.
So it was more of aconversation about conceptual
things, because he was goingthrough some stuff in his
(38:23):
relationship and said, okay,this is what I'm witnessing, how
your relationship's unfolding,and this is how similar how it
looked in my relationship withyour mom.
So we got into talking aboutthings about trust in the
relationship and when, how andhow he was showing up and what's
what is acceptable for him toallow to happen and not, and
(38:45):
what are the potential outcomesof all of that.
And so it really is importantto understand at what age level
are you talking to your childrenwith that, because they may not
be ready for all of this stuff,and even at 30 again, even
though I was pretty mindfulabout he doesn't need to know
the gory details.
That doesn't it's, I'm sure onyour podcast, interviewing guys
(39:09):
have gone through some prettyhorrific stuff.
It's not about the detail orthe gore or the horror of it.
It's about thattransformational journey that
they've gone through.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I make it very clear to people when I'm coming on a
podcast, because a lot of peoplewant to hear specifics about my
story and that sort of thing.
And one thing that I makereally clear whenever I guest on
a podcast is I'm not here tothrow anyone under the bus ever.
I'm more interested in what'sbetter for your audience, or any
audience, is to hear how thistransformed my life so that can
(39:43):
be an inspiration to them andhow that might transform their
life.
No one is better by me comingon here and bitching about
whatever my ex did 100%.
It just doesn't make anybodybetter.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
And I would also caution men that are watching
and listening to this right now.
Be even cautious when you talkto your bros about this sort of
thing as well, because the moreyou reiterate something in your
head, the more you believe it.
It's like the concept of a lotof guys get upset with me when
(40:17):
they're out there in the datingworld and I'm in the dating
world as well, so I understandthis and they'll read a dating
profile or meet with a woman orwhatever, and they'll hear men
are blank, women are blank.
Men are always blank.
The more you say that, even ifyou're joking, the more your
(40:38):
brain believes it.
Yeah, so stop saying it,because it's not true.
There is no.
Men are always blank, women arealways, but there is no
statement that's true of right.
There just isn't.
So stop saying it, and I wouldencourage you to stop saying
that in your relationships aswell, because I'm again.
I've done this plenty of times,so I'm not saying I figured
(41:00):
this out.
I just know the more of thosethoughts that I allow to enter
my mind, even if somebody elseis saying it.
Let's take this one stepfurther.
Even if somebody else is, sheis blank.
If you don't correct them.
You believe it Even if youdon't believe it.
You believe it even if youdon't believe it.
(41:21):
It's subtle, it's very subtle.
But if you are constantlytalking to your parent or your
sibling or your friend andthey're constantly saying
whatever about your ex orwhoever it's about, if you're
not correcting it, you're notcorrecting your brain and you're
just allowing it to go in yourbrain and eventually it's going
to come out in ways that youdon't expect.
It really is so real quick too,alan, before I forget, I wanted
(41:44):
to offer a resource to all yourlisteners and viewers as well.
So that ebook that you mentionedthe five traps men face when
going through divorce and how totriumph over them you can feel
free to go on Amazon right now,look up my name and go buy it.
Or, if you want, reach out tome on Instagram.
Send me a message.
(42:09):
My handle I'll give it to youfor the show notes later.
I think the one you have isactually inaccurate.
My Instagram handle is Josh thederelict.
D E R E L I C T.
So, josh the derelict, if youjust send me-E-L-I-C-T.
So, josh the Derelict, if youjust send me a message on
Instagram, please send me thesewords revolutionary ebook
Because that'll remind me thatit's coming from the
Revolutionary man podcast, wherewe are right now, and that you
(42:30):
want the ebook.
So send me revolutionary ebookto Josh the Derelict and I will
send you a copy of it for free.
Love that, brother Love that andhonestly, even if you already
gone through a divorce, send itanyway.
I tell you there are things inthat book that you have not done
yet or that you could do better.
I promise you, because when Iread that book myself and I
(42:53):
wrote it I'm like man, I coulddo better at this.
So read it and then, if youwant additional, I'll add one
other thing.
If you also want additionalresources like we're talking
about age, appropriate ways oftalking about divorce, things
like that Send me a message atJosh the derelict and I'm happy
to send you other resources aswell, other books that I have
(43:15):
Happy to send you otherresources as well.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Other books that I have, et cetera, love that, I
love that.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
I'm really sorry to pot, Can you?
Can I pause for just one second?
I have to grab something in theroom.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
I apologize, you know one of the last things, a
couple of things.
I want to summarize what we'vebeen talking about and really
we've been teasing all aroundthe idea of leadership and
really about being strongleaders.
If you were to come across aman right now who is struggling
either with his personal or hisprofessional life and looking
for some help, what advice wouldyou be giving him?
Speaker 3 (43:46):
today.
That's a great question andyou're actually bringing up
something that I wanted to sayearlier that I forgot.
So I appreciate you saying thatwhen we have all this
conversation about takingresponsibility for your action
and it goes back to let's goback to the definition of
failure.
If you look up the definitionof failure, the first definition
(44:08):
is not succeeding, which is nota helpful definition.
If you look at the seconddefinition of failure, it says
that something you wereintending to do I'm paraphrasing
here, of course something thatyou were intending to do, some
sort of goal that you'reintending to do, was not
accomplished.
So all failure is that somebodyset out for something and it
(44:30):
didn't happen.
Now, if that's the definitionof failure, that means I fail
every single day of my life.
Now, if that's the definitionof failure, that means I fail
every single day of my life.
If I was trying to walk acrossthe room without tripping and I
trip, that's a failure.
But we have in our mind that afailure means I'm a failure as a
person.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
It turns into shame.
It turns into I am a terribleperson, I'm worthless and it's
not even worth sticking around.
So here's something that Ithink is really important for
everybody to hear this is not amessage of pick up yourself by
your bootstraps and try again.
That's not what we're sayinghere.
Failure is an opportunity tohave some awareness of what's
(45:16):
going on in your life, to beconfident, gentle and loving
with yourself through that, tostay curious about what's going
on and then figure out what youwant for your life.
That's it.
It's a really simple process.
The very first step, which Iwould say is probably the most
important process, the veryfirst step, which I would say is
(45:38):
probably the most important, isjust staying curious.
It's easy for me, and I think itis for us as men in general, to
see a problem and want to fixit, to see something that's
wrong and say that's wrong.
It's not wrong, it's justdifferent than we want it to be.
So the very first thing I haveto do to be gentle with myself
is to be curious about whatabout this is wrong?
(46:00):
Right, what about this is wrong?
I'll put it in quotes whatabout this is what I don't want
it to be, and if I can staycurious about that, then I can
be honest with myself about whatit is where I'm at right now
and where I want to go.
There's no shame in that,because that doesn't mean I
failed as a person.
(46:20):
It just means that I'm in adifferent spot than where I want
to be.
If I can do that in a curiousway without shaming myself, it's
much easier to come up with agame plan of what to do next.
If you shame yourself and yousay that you're a shitty person,
it's really hard to build agame plan around that, because
that just turns into a cycle ofI'm terrible and this is
(46:43):
terrible and everything'sterrible and we're all terrible.
It just doesn't help anybody.
So I would say the first thingis just be curious about what
you're feeling.
And this could be a very simpleexercise where you literally
take out a notepad and justwrite down Just be curious.
Pretend like you are anobserver of yourself.
If you were viewing somebodyelse acting the way that you're
(47:06):
acting and thinking what you'rethinking, and you're viewing
them in a coffee shop, whatwould you write about them?
Let's say that you're a poet.
You just want to write downwhatever it is that you see
about that person, feel the sameway about yourself, then be
curious about what you read andbe very aware if there's any
judgment that you're giving ofyourself while you're reading
(47:28):
this, Because even if you'recurious during that, you might
read it and then judge yourselfLike that's wrong, that's wrong,
that's wrong, that's wrong.
During that, you might read itand then judge yourself that's
wrong, that's wrong, that'swrong, that's wrong.
It's part of the reason not totoot my own horn or your own
horn, alan, but it's part of thereason I personally, for myself
, need a coach in my life.
I have multiple coaches in mylife, and it's the same reason I
coach other men, because weneed somebody that can not BS us
(47:52):
and be honest with us, but alsobe gentle and curious with us
to help us discover what'sactually going on in our life,
and, frankly, I'm not alwaysgood about that.
I'm much better at it withother people than I am myself,
though Cause for myself, I'lllook at something and be like
you, piece of shit, figure thisout.
I don't generally say that toother people.
(48:12):
I will say that to men, though,more than my children.
So if you have a hard time withthis and you're listening to
this.
Think about it like you'resaying it to your little girl or
your little boy.
How are you going to speak tothem?
And I hope that you're a goodparent that would be loving and
caring with that little boy orthat little girl.
(48:33):
So be loving and caring withyourself.
It does not help for you justto tell yourself that you're bad
in whatever circumstance.
And then what I would say istwo things.
Number one get a coach, becausethe coach is specifically
trained on how to do this.
Reach out to Alan, reach out tome.
You have two people right herethat are willing to help you.
And then, number three, take agood long hard.
(48:58):
Look at the five people thatare in your biggest circle of
influence, the people you spendthe most time with and, more
importantly, the people thatinfluence you the most, because
whoever those people are is whoyou will become and who you are,
whether you want to admit it ornot.
There was a Harvard study doneseveral years ago about this,
and what he discovered is thatthe five people that are most
(49:20):
influential in your lifedetermine wait for it 90% of
your success 90%.
So whoever you're surroundingyourself with, that's who you're
going to become.
So if you want to become thisnext best version of yourself,
you got to make sure that you'resurrounding yourself with other
people that want to become thenext best version of themselves.
(49:42):
If you want to be a personthat's accountable to their
actions and has somebody callingyou out for stuff when you're
not doing it, you got to makesure that you're around people
that are willing to call you outand that can be called out by
you.
I found this out the hard way.
I've had to transition severalfriendships when I've gotten to
a point with those friendships,as deep as our roots were Once,
(50:05):
I realized that I was on thispath, I was willing to be called
out, I was willing to do thesethings, et cetera.
This person wasn't doesn't makeme good or bad, doesn't make
them good or bad.
It just means are we on thesame path or are we not?
Because if we're not on thesame path, there's only so much
value we can bring to ourselves,our lives, our relationship.
(50:26):
And a lot of people thinkthat's really harsh if I remove
them more from my world.
First of all, you don't have tocompletely remove them from
your world.
This is not a black or whitething.
You don't have to completelyremove them from your world.
This is not a black or whitething.
You don't have to be extremeabout it.
You just might have to setdifferent boundaries, different
rules around it.
But the other thing is you'realso hurting them by keeping
them in your life, because ifthey're on this path and you're
on this path, you're hurtingthem by not allowing them the
(50:48):
opportunity to find other peoplethat are on this path.
Yes, whatever that path is.
That's true in relationships.
It's true in romanticrelationships, it's true with
spouses, it's true withfriendships.
It's just true.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
Yeah, that is so true .
That is so true.
You talked about the Harvardstudy and, I think, of Jim Rohn
the great.
Jim Rohn used to say that aswell we will become the average
of the five people we hangaround with the most, and it
really is important to recognizewho is in our circle of
influence and what's happeningwith us.
And it does mean makingdecisions on, yes, how often
(51:22):
maybe you're hanging out andspending time with certain
individuals, and those can betough decisions, but if you're
truly wanting to raise the levelthat you show up as a husband,
a father, a leader, this is thework that we've been called to
do.
I just want to say, josh, Ijust love today's conversation
and sharing with us the wisdomof what it means for us to
(51:43):
reclaim our identity, redefiningmasculinity and really
embracing being leaders in ourlives.
And if men are interested ingetting a hold of you and
participating in your work,what's the best way for them to
do that?
Speaker 3 (51:55):
I would say Instagram is the best.
Just reach out to me, josh thederelict.
I answer all of my own messages.
I'm on there every single day,multiple times a day, messaging
people.
I probably message I don't know.
There's a lot of people everysingle day, so message me there.
That's probably the best way.
If you don't have Instagram oryou think, oh, I don't want to
go that way, that's probably thebest way.
If you don't have Instagram oryou think I don't want to go
(52:15):
that way, that's fine, go to thederelictbiz.
That's the website that givesall the contact information,
other ways of getting hold of me, shows, the YouTube channel,
the TikTok, the email, whateverway you want to go from there.
Speaker 1 (52:28):
You betcha buddy.
So I want to make sure thatwherever you are hiding on the
internet, we're going to makesure that people can go and find
you and get a hold of you.
I love today's conversation,josh.
Keep up the great work, myfriend.
Have a great one.
Speaker 3 (52:41):
Thanks, alan, appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (52:51):
Thank you for listening to the Revolutionary
man podcast.
Are you ready to own yourdestiny, to become more the man
you are listening to theRevolutionary man podcast?
Are you ready to own yourdestiny, to become more the man
you are destined to be?
Join the brotherhood that isthe Awakened man at
theawakendmannet and startforging a new destiny today.
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