May 25, 2025 • 46 mins
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Many men struggle with outdated expectations of masculinity, creating disconnection from purpose, relationships, and self while carrying the weight of social norms that no longer serve them. Jason Lange joins us to explore how embracing men's work, uncovering shadow elements, and building supportive relationships can help men reclaim their vitality and purpose.
• Shadow work involves making the unconscious conscious, bringing to awareness what might be running your life without your knowledge
• The "man box" confines men to behaviors like never showing emotion, never asking for help, and always appearing tough
• Studies show men who strongly identify with traditional masculine values are more likely to commit suicide
• Loneliness and isolation are as harmful to health as smoking a pack and a half of cigarettes daily
• The "fierce, loving masculine heart" offers a third path beyond macho jerk and passive nice guy
• Integration of masculine and feminine energies creates wholeness regardless of gender
• Community builds resilience—men need other men to model healthy masculinity
• Many men push themselves with strategies and goals while ignoring their dysregulated nervous systems
• Connection and rest often naturally lead to renewed motivation and energy
Join a men's group or find ways to build deeper connections with other men. Visit evolutionarymen.com to learn more about Jason's work and programs.
How to reach Jason:
Website: https://evolutionary.men/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/evolutionarymenswork
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/evolutionarymen/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@evolutionarymen
Thanks for listening to the Revolutionary Man Podcast. For more information about our programs, please use the links below to learn more about us. It could be the step that changes your life.
Want to be a guest on The Revolutionary Man Podcast? Send Alain Dumonceaux a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/revolutionarymanpodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
imagine living your life feeling disconnected from
your purpose, your relationshipsor even yourself.
Many men are struggling withoutdated expectation of what it
means to be a man carrying theweight of social norms that no
longer serve them or anyone else, and these pressures can create
loneliness, confusion and alack of clarity on how to lead
(00:20):
in love, life and community.
But what if there was a way foryou to break free, to shed
these old paradigms, to stepinto a healthier, more empowered
way of being?
In today's episode, we're goingto explore how embracing men's
work, uncovering shadow elementsand building deep, supportive
relationships can help menreclaim their vitality, purpose
(00:44):
and leadership in all aspects oflife.
And so if this sounds like atopic that could be interesting
to you or to someone else, whydon't you take a moment and hit
like subscribe and leave acomment?
Let us know what you thinkabout today's episode.
Please do share it so thatothers who are also interested
can find this episode even moreeasily.
And with that, let's get onwith today's episode.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
The average man today is sleepwalking through life,
many never reaching their truepotential, let alone ever
crossing the finish line toliving a purposeful life.
Yet the hunger still exists,albeit buried amidst his
cluttered mind, misguidedbeliefs and values that no
longer serve him.
It's time to align yourself forgreatness.
(01:31):
It's time to become arevolutionary man.
Stay strong, my brother.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Welcome everyone to the Revolutionary man Podcast.
I'm the founder of the Wakingman Movement and your host, Alan
DeMonsoul.
What if parts of yourself mightbe hidden, maybe even disowned
Silently?
These things are holding usback from living the life we
truly want, wouldn't you agree?
How might joining a men's groupor engaging in men's work
(02:00):
transform not just our personalgrowth, but also our
relationships and our ability tolead?
Now, this is a journey ofreclaiming purpose and vitality,
and it starts with trulyunderstanding who we are,
embracing our shadow elementsand building connections with
others that support our growth.
Today, we're going to explorehow some tools can help you
(02:20):
transform the men that we showup as in the world today.
So I'm going to introduce myguest.
Jason Lange is a men'sembodiment coach.
He's a group facilitator and anevolutionary guide, and he
helps men drop in and wake up toa deeper clarity in their
life's purpose and theirrelationships.
He believes every man should bein a men's group for the growth
(02:41):
and support of opportunitiesthat they provide, and I
couldn't agree more.
Jason's a certified no more MrNice Guy coach, and he's studied
and trained with leaders suchas John Weiland, dr Robert
Glover, junpo Roshi, trippLanier and Ken Wilburn.
So we're going to get into lotsof topics today.
Welcome to the show, jason.
(03:01):
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Brother, so excited to be here.
Alan, thanks for having meExcellent Well here.
On our podcast, theRevolutionary man, we always
talk about all of us being on ahero's journey.
We call it a hero's quest, andso I'm going to ask you about
that.
Tell us about a time of yearwhere you had that death and
rebirth moment and how thatexperience shaped you in the man
(03:22):
you are today and the work thatyou're doing moment, and how
that experience shaped you andthe man you are today and the
work that you're doing.
Sure, I would say it wasactually in my transition to
doing this work in a lot of ways.
I had been doing it for my ownheart and soul and growth and
transformation and maybe aboutseven years ago decided, hey, I
(03:46):
think I want to give this a go,and partially because of some of
the pressures of the men's workworld and partially because I
just wasn't patient enough, Idid a burn all the boats, burn
the bridges strategy and I hadbeen kind of making a living as
an artist and a web developerand I let go of all those
clients and was like I'm justgoing to go head in and make it
(04:08):
work as a coach.
And I had been recently married, we had been planning on
starting a family and I fellflat on my face.
It was a brutal first year whereI dug myself into many tens of
thousands of dollars of debt andcaused a crisis in my
relationship, in my buddingfamily in a sense, and in my
(04:33):
bank account, and had to reallywith the support of some men in
my life and coming to terms withsome disagreements I had with
my wife at the time get clear ofokay, it's not that simple.
I'm going to have to do bothfor a while and this dream of
going kind of full time at firsthad to die and I had to create
(04:55):
and cultivate a level ofperseverance.
And okay, I'm going to have todo two things right now.
I'm going to have to do work Ilove and I'm going to have to do
work I love and I'm going tohave to do work I don't love.
That allows me to do the work Ilove, and that was a long, hard
journey that in retrospect Iwould have done very different,
(05:16):
but taught me a lot of lessons.
Actually, now that I'm throughit, that I actually see play out
with many men and some of thesome of what you mentioned here,
but some of the actual shadowwork elements of even in the
men's work world, particularlyaround purpose and drive and
whatnot that I have found to bea lot more nuanced than we often
wanna give it imagine it to be.
(05:37):
Yeah, absolutely, boy, thatstory resonates loudly for me
and, as I've been doing thismen's work since 2020 and just
actually just prior to thepandemic, and while it's still a
, I'm in that same position ofit's an and business for me.
There's the other work that I dothat well, I enjoy.
(05:57):
I don't desperately or deeplylove it any longer.
It does allow me the ability todo this work, and so it's
interesting how life shapes usand puts these things before us,
and really it reveals who weare as men, and so let's talk a
little bit we're just tickling alittle bit here about this idea
of this shadow work.
Let's get into that work andhow that work has helped
(06:19):
transform you and the workyou're doing with other men.
Yeah, shadow work is a big partof what I offer with men now
and, like the word men's work ormeditation.
It can mean a lot of differentthings, but in general it's
about making conscious theunconscious, bringing back to
the surface, in a sense, thatwhich we can't see or that which
(06:42):
might be running the show forus that we're unaware of.
And they call it the shadowright, because it's imagine
looking at your shadow, you'relike what shadow?
But oftentimes to other peopleit's blindingly obvious, like
you got a big shadow right there, man, part of why group work is
so potent and so powerful.
But my journey with men's workand shadow work actually started
(07:03):
around the same time.
I was in my mid-20s and hadbeen suffering for a long time.
Grew up in the Midwest of theUnited States White guy, lower
middle class, had my basicsecurity needs met, but my
family just did not have a senseof interiority.
There was no emotionalconnection and there was no
(07:23):
physical connection.
Had a lot of neglect.
Growing up Again, it wasn't amalevolent household, but I was
just left to my own devices andthat caused a lot of problems as
I got a little older.
When you're young you're justlike this is what's normal.
And then, as I became a teenagerand started leaving the house
(07:44):
and going into other people'shouses and then, in particular,
as I hit puberty and foundmyself interested in my case and
dating the opposite sex andfound I was terrified.
I had no idea how to talk to awoman.
I would get extremelyuncomfortable in my body when I
was around them, sweaty, tight,and it caused a lot of pain for
(08:05):
me and over time it didn't getany better.
Right I saw my friends havingrelationships, having
experiences, and I kept fallinginto the same traps over and
over again and that pain was sogreat caused me to say hey,
there's got to be a better way,right, there's got to be
something going on here.
And like a lot of men first,that took me in a philosophical
(08:29):
direction where I started tryingto study and learn about
philosophy and how to have abetter mind.
But I got lucky, because thenthat eventually took me to men's
work in somatic therapy and inparticular they swirled together
in.
One of my first experiences in adeep men's group was with an
older male facilitator who ledme through a shadow work process
(08:51):
.
I had been in therapy for maybe18 months before that and it
was useful, but it wasn'tmassively moving the ball for me
.
In particular.
I was pretty sophisticated withmy protective mechanisms and I
could go in and talk about I'mokay and keep it on the surface
and stuff I had built some skillat, apparently.
(09:13):
But then I'm in this men'sgroup with this male facilitator
who leads a process of shadowwork I'm now trained in and
within 10 minutes I'm on my backand I'm crying like a baby,
sobbing, my hands are up in theair and I'm saying hold me, like
a two-year-old boy crying forhis mother, and I hadn't wept
(09:34):
like that ever in my life.
And I got up from that and Iwas like what on earth just
happened?
What was going on?
I didn't even know that wasinside me.
And so began my kind of loveaffair with shadow work, where
part of my process wasreintegrating a deeply neglected
infant and toddler that hadnever really been held or
(09:55):
touched and because of that,felt so much discomfort around
that when I was around women inparticular, that I would either
totally freeze or come at themtoo aggressively because I was
just so hungry for touch.
And so I kept doing shadow workafter that and eventually
decided, hey, I love this work,I want to learn how to do it and
(10:18):
trained with my trainer and nowlead shadow work for men and
it's one of the most powerfultools I think I have in my
toolkit at least that I'veexperienced.
And then, in particular, whenwe combine it with a group,
something really profound andmagic happens, because men get
to see other men deepening intothemselves and seeing the light
(10:40):
bulbs of their nervous system gooff essentially light bulbs of
their nervous system go offessentially and for men to be
able to experience and feelthings inside themselves they
had never felt before andsuddenly for all these old
patterns and conditioning andhabits to become clear as to oh
wow, I never would have guessedthis.
(11:01):
One time, when I was young,this thing happened and my whole
nervous system has adapted tothat and I've been living from
that for the sometimes 20, 30,40 years.
And these things have massiverepercussions for us, and
particularly as us men get alittle older, when we're in our
20s and 30s.
I kind of joke.
It's like we come with apreloaded credit card that's got
(11:22):
lots of space and we just wecan work hard, we can of joke.
It's like we come with apreloaded credit card that's got
lots of space and we just wecan work hard, we can party hard
, we don't have to take goodcare of ourselves.
You start hitting mid thirtiesand then forties and then
fifties, and that changes fastand those bills come due.
And one of the biggest things alot of men I work with struggle
(11:43):
with is just energy management.
They get tired, they getoverwhelmed, their bodies start
to fail them, they sometimes getnumb or depressed and what I
(12:06):
have found is there's almostalways a direct correlation to
some kind of shadow material inthere.
Because another way to thinkabout shadow material is anytime
, for whatever reason, we stopourselves from feeling.
So you can imagine if you saw ayoung boy fully crying because
he hurt himself and dad comes upto him and he yells at him stop
crying.
How does the boy do it, nick?
Yeah, he stops breathing, hisbody tightens up and he holds it
(12:31):
without even realizing it.
And that process of holdingthis stuff happens at the
smallest levels inside ournervous system and it takes
energy to hold things.
And as we're holding thosethings, that energy, that life
force is not available for us toheal our bodies, to move
forward in our lives.
(12:52):
So shadow work.
Another amazing thing about itis it's a way to reclaim our
vitality, and I see it time andtime again.
Where men go in, have anincredible experience of
sometimes feeling something theyhad never felt before in their
lives, and on the other side ofit, they look younger, there's
more breath, there's more blood,their face softens, they're
(13:15):
smiling, there's just more ofthem there.
So that's a long-winded answerto the first question there.
Yeah, no, what a greatexplanation there, just writing
down a bunch of notes, and oneof the things that I wrote down
was you had these sophisticatedmechanisms and you started off
today's conversation about howyou started on the philosophical
(13:35):
side of understanding yourselfand men's work.
And that also resonated with me, because I think, as we start
to learn something, that's wherewe go.
We read books, we take courses,we do some training and we tend
to keep it here in our minds.
And one of my mentors said tome the longest journey that
we're ever going to take isgoing to go from our head to our
(13:56):
heart and being able to do thatwork.
And then you talked aboutreally finally getting the
experience of releasing all ofthat through through shadow work
, and and that was because ofthe one incident that has helped
shape who you were and wedeveloped these coping
mechanisms and it continues to.
(14:17):
Sometimes it's, it will serveus to some extent until it no
longer does, and so I liked that.
The way you've been explainingthe shadow work.
Did you want to expand on that?
I know just, I love that framein that.
Yeah, shadow work can be rootedin acute, one-time things.
It can be chronic things.
It can be all kinds of traumathat sometimes we just lock off
(14:41):
in our nervous system and carrywith us Again.
The amazing thing I foundworking with guys over these
last seven years is men willcome to me in their 60s and 70s
and have things they've nevershared or touched from decades
ago, and all of those years werespent with a little bit of
(15:01):
their life force, a little bitof their consciousness, on
holding that thing inside.
And it has an incredible costfor us as men, another one of
which is if we aren't able tofully bury it, and there's still
some of the discomfort there.
Most of us men are not taughtfrom a young age to identify
(15:22):
what we're feeling in our bodiesand our hearts, let alone how
to express them or process them.
So when there's any discomfortin there, what do most men do?
We turn to things outside ofourselves to numb it or change
it.
Weed, booze, porn, sex food,overworking TV, you name it.
(15:44):
And those are the medicinesthat most of our cultures say
are okay for men, but while theyprovide temporary relief, they
never actually treat the symptom.
Yeah, I completely agree,because it ends up by just
another way to mask what it is,that we're what's truly going on
, and because we aren't able toarticulate it and name that
(16:05):
feeling or that, that thingthat's happening for us, and
then we tend to find these othercoping mechanisms to distract
us away from actually diving inand doing that work.
And you started talking a littlebit about societal expectations
, and I think there's a lot ofthem, when we're going to see a
major shift again now with the.
You're in Colorado, I'm up inCanada, you just had your
(16:27):
federal election, we're about tohave one here in the coming
months, and so, yeah, howsociety shapes us also impacts
how we respond to it.
And so let's talk a little bitabout what are some of these
societal expectations and howare they contributing to the
struggles that men are facingtoday?
Yeah, so you know this word isloaded and people have different
(16:49):
feelings about it these days.
In general, we'd call this thepatriarchy, but in a more zoomed
in way, we could call this theman box, which is really just
this idea that there's a box ofbehaviors men are expected to
stay within and as long as youstay within that you're
considered a man.
If you step out of that, youare not considered a man, and
(17:10):
it's literally just like achecklist.
In here in the West, which Iwould include Canada and the US
in it's be tough.
Don't share your feelings,never cry, don't ask for help.
Men above women.
There's these differentparadigms there that really
confine men quite quite a bitand that it's pretty wild cause
(17:31):
so much harm to men.
It's not even just to women,it's actually to men.
I was just reading a new studythat came out that was talking
about men who strongly identifywith these kind of traditional
masculine values, some of whichcan be associated with stoicism.
In some different sense, theyare way more likely to commit
(17:51):
suicide.
It has a real cost and thatsame kind of man box tends to
emphasize lone wolf mentality.
Right that it's better to do italone.
Relying on other people is weak, and the joke with that is well
in nature.
It's actually the lone wolfthat's the one that's going to
(18:13):
die sooner because it was kickedout of the pack.
It's not going to make it.
And in real life again, theevidence shows that loneliness,
isolation they've done researchstudies just as damaging to
longevity and health as smokinga pack and a half of cigarettes
a day yeah, it has a huge impacton our well-being as men.
(18:34):
And the other wild thing aboutthis idea of the man box, alan,
that this other great study Iwas seeing is they told people
about what do you see that marksthe different, the transition
from a girl to a woman.
Like, how do you know when agirl has become a woman?
(18:56):
And lo and behold, both men andwomen tended to report back
biological things.
So she has her menstrual cycle,she's developed breasts, her
body has changed, she can rearchildren In those same polls.
They asked the other questionwhat marks the transition of a
boy to a man?
(19:16):
Lo and behold, it was notbiological, it was cultural
expectations of what a man issupposed to be.
He's able to take care ofhimself, he's able to provide X,
y and Z.
So the big difference there isthat you can be a fully grown
man but still be considered aboy, right?
(19:36):
Because of these man boxattributes and all this stuff
weighs on men from a very youngage.
I often even see it.
Most of us have seen it, if notexperienced it, in just how we
were parented.
Boys are often parented verydifferent from girls.
You scrape your knee oh, get up, you're okay, you're tough,
just get back on the swing.
(19:57):
We're taught to stop crying,often as boys.
Then we get into the schoolsystem, which Robert Bly has
written a lot about.
Often it's changing, for sure,but still predominantly women
that are teachers.
And then just the nature of theindustrialized school system
really is sit still.
And then just the nature of theindustrialized school system
(20:17):
really is sit still.
And what we know about boys andtheir hormone profiles is they
need to move their bodies.
They need to move their bodies.
But they get in school andwe're told sit still, so stop
crying, sit still.
Two messages right there we getfrom a young age that are
(20:39):
essentially what they'reactually saying is ignore what's
happening in your body, yeah,override it with your head.
That's more important.
Then we become adolescents.
We get into that kind of lockerroom age, very competitive.
Some boys' bodies are changing,some aren't.
Social dynamics come into playand we quickly learn wow, don't
share anything vulnerablebecause you will be, at worst,
(21:00):
made fun of for it and at bestmade fun of for it, at worst you
will be actively bullied for it.
Yeah, and then we get out ofthere and we get into the
workforce and lo and beholdwhat's success.
Oh, he works 80 hours a week.
He pushes himself, he neverstops so great Same thing.
He's ignoring his body.
And then I've worked with plentyof guys in their 40s, 50s CEOs
(21:20):
who wake up one day and theycan't get out of bed because
they've just burnt out afterdecades of pushing their bodies
too hard.
But lo and behold, again, allthat is pushing us as men into
this expectation and this box ofbehavior that frankly kills us
and causes us to hold even moreof that stuff inside.
(21:43):
Where I'll work with men whoare saying, yeah, I went out
with my buddies last night andyet I'm still terribly lonely.
We talked about the game, butI'm in the middle of the worst
divorce in my life and back atweekend I can't talk about that
because I don't want to burdenthem and there's still this just
deep loneliness and inabilityto share what's going on inside.
Yeah, we've touched on a bunchof stuff there and I in your
(22:06):
story.
There you talked about how youhadn't been touched, and I think
that's so true, for I'm theoldest of five and I can
remember as, as my siblings werecoming along, they sat on my
dad's lap until they could walk,basically, and then after that
there wasn't any real physical,anything physical happening,
(22:27):
especially with the boys.
Now I have one sister.
She was always nurtureddifferently than us four boys,
nurtured differently than usfour boys, and I think that's
true for a lot of men that westruggle because we don't, we
didn't learn to have thataffection, and then, on top of
that, how to manage our emotions, and so we go into the habit of
(22:49):
repressing everything, and weall know what ends up by
happening.
And you hold a basketballunderwater.
Eventually that thing's goingto explode.
And so I think it's really keythat as men start to, as we
start to do more men's work, westart to understand that it's
(23:10):
okay for us to have feelings, tobe able to acknowledge them and
work with them.
I think that Viktor Frankltalked about that stimulus
between that time, betweenstimulus and response, is that
greatest opportunity for us tofind growth and if we can just
find that one moment to be ableto exercise a different choice.
So I do think that there's aspectrum on how we show up in
terms of different aspects.
(23:31):
And if you're built and youwant to be the CEO and you want
to drive and do that, I thinkthat's great.
But are you also payingattention to the other aspects
of your life?
Because, in the end, what is itgoing to be worth for you if
you're stuck in a hospital bedat best or even at worst, much
more painful for family?
And you talk a lot, jason, inyour work also about a fierce,
(23:55):
loving masculine heart.
Let's talk about what that isall about and how we can really
embody this as men.
Yeah, part of the opportunitymen's work and facilitators like
you and me get to bring forwardin the world right now is why a
lot of men are struggling is wehave not been given a vision of
what we can grow into.
(24:16):
Men love to show up and growand move forward when they have
a path.
The problem is, as I say, mostmen grew up only seeing three
potential archetypes formasculinity.
One, the traditional kind of myway or the highway macho jerk.
This is the old school machismobravado.
(24:37):
Yeah, I'm tough, do what I sayI dominate you and I put myself
first, regardless of the impacton you, and there's a certain
power in that, for sure.
But those men we have plenty ofevidence throughout history
cause plenty of harm to othermen, to women, to children, to
the environment, you name it.
(24:58):
Now, a lot of men saw guys likethat or were raised by fathers
like that and said, uh-uh, I'mnot doing that, no way.
And then the pendulum swung,starting in the 60s and 70s, a
little to the other side of youknow what?
I want?
To be safe.
I want to be a safe person.
(25:19):
I don't want to be mean, Idon't want to be aggressive, I
don't want to dominate anyoneand that was the birth of this
term, the nice guy right whichis, yeah, I'm a nice guy, I
don't.
I'm not aggressive, I try notto cause discomfort, I want to
make sure everyone around me issafe and is okay, and in fact,
what I end up doing is Iprioritize other people over
(25:40):
myself.
So I totally reverse that in asense, where I'm only focused on
other people.
Meanwhile inside I'm suffering,I can't set any boundaries, I'm
not getting any of my own needsmet, I'm overworked, I'm over
fried, I'm treated poorly.
Whatever that might be, thatone also doesn't work.
There's also this kind of olderone that hangs out in cultures
(26:01):
like I was talking about, whichis the Stoic, and I sometimes
paint the picture of this as,like you know, the grandfather
that went through World War IIyeah, never talked about it once
in his whole life Just shows up, takes care of the family,
tight lid Sh, shares nothinginside Again, really admirable
(26:22):
in some sense but is oftenaddicted to alcohol or really
suffering on the inside.
So we men, we see these andwe're like, what are we supposed
to do?
Like, literally, who are wesupposed to be and that's part
of the problem right now In thiskind of third way, the
integrated man, whatever youwant to call it, the
evolutionary man, therevolutionary man, our sexuality
(26:43):
, our want, our drive and ourheart, our openness, our
sensitivity, our attunement toimpact, and then connect that
(27:05):
with a deep level of awarenessthat helps us guide us through
life.
And it's absolutely incrediblewhen it comes together, because
most men are actually dying tohave this kind of presence in
their life.
And I call it you've probablyseen it in your groups, but it's
like the spinach in the teethmoment, right where you want
someone in your life who, whenyou're walking through the world
(27:27):
and you got a big piece ofspinach in your mouth, sticking
there in your teeth, they'regoing to stop you and say, hey,
man, you have a piece of spinachin your teeth and at first
you're going to feel like alittle embarrassed, then you're
going to clean it out, and thenyou're going to stop you and say
, hey, man, you have a piece ofspinach in your teeth and at
first you're going to feel likea little embarrassed, then
you're going to clean it out andthen you're going to be like,
oh my God, thank you for tellingme that, because I saw 20 other
people today and no onementioned it.
And I've been walking throughthe world feeling now and
(27:50):
looking like an idiot.
And this kind of fierce, loving,attuned masculine is the
masculine that calls each otherforward, that it's not shame
based, so it's not about you'renot good enough, you're bad.
It's hey, man, I can see thevision of who you can be in the
world and I'm going to hold thatvision with you and if you
(28:14):
don't hit that mark, I'm goingto let you know.
And again, I'm not going toshame you for it, but I'm going
to join in there with you inthat moment.
And, as I say, the great giftof the masculine, the father
energy we all need is let'sfigure it out together.
Hey, man, yeah, what you'redoing right now dating those two
women without them knowingabout it that's not cool.
(28:36):
It's causing harm to you, tothem.
So how are we going to cleanthis up?
And then we're going toworkshop it.
Okay, do I need to haveconversation?
Do I need it to end with one ofthem, both of them, whatever
that might be, in that kind offierce, loving presence of I see
you and I'm not going to letyou get away with being anything
(28:56):
but your best.
It takes power, so it takes anability to penetrate and be
fierce, in a sense, and wake aguy up and, oftentimes in a
loving way, confront him.
Or this great new term I heardrecently carefrontation.
You got to confront him withcare, right, and then it takes
that heart, that and I love youand I'm here with you and we're
(29:18):
going to figure this out.
And that type of masculinepresence.
It's not even just men that arecraving it.
The world is craving it becausethe feminine women, they're
doing their best to keep thiswhole thing afloat right now.
I would say and count me intothe faction that thinks, right
(29:39):
now we don't need lessmasculinity in the world.
We actually need more healthymasculinity to join healthy
femininity in terms of ridingthe ship and just creating as
much love, truth and goodnessfor as many people as possible.
I couldn't agree more.
I couldn't agree more.
I think we're in a position nowin the world where more and
more men are starting to reallyunderstand that we do have to
(30:02):
have this integrated being ofwho we are, what we want, we
think we do, but it's based onsomebody else's perspective of
who we should be, and so are wereally truly solid on that.
And the more times that we cando this work and understand
(30:27):
everything about us, then we canshow up and be much stronger as
men, and that makes that makesthe world a better place versus
just being the being, the bully,like you talked about, that
macho guy.
Leave that for the wrestlingring Saturday afternoon.
Saturday evening.
Go and enjoy an experience thatdoes show a bit of what life's
(30:51):
about but it's not really who weare as men and really become
much better than we are.
In men's work, too, we about.
There's this feminine aspect ofit.
Sometimes that makes guys alittle bit uneasy, maybe a
little cringeworthy, but westill have aspects of ourselves,
if we truly want to beintegrated men, that the
feminine does play a role in ourlife.
(31:12):
So let's talk a little bitabout how that shows up in your
work and in your role.
Absolutely and some people getall charged up about these terms
because they can be loaded andthey have cultural baggage and,
whether you want to call itmasculine, feminine, alpha and
omega, yin and yang, feeling andperspective, flow and go.
There's so many ways you cantalk about this.
(31:35):
Consciousness and light theseare two polar energies in the
world, in the universe that justshow up.
The most simple is life anddeath.
Inhale and exhale.
You need them both.
You need them both, and one ofthe big shifts of the last 70,
80 years or so has been theliberation of these energies
(32:00):
from biology.
So it used to be if you wereborn a woman, you were expected
to become a mother and do thesecertain roles.
If you were born a man, youwere a father, you had to do
these certain roles and we livedin pretty narrow windows.
There was some culturalvariation, but overall there
wasn't as much as you mightexpect.
That started to change right inthe 50s and 60s, particularly
(32:22):
with feminism, women'sliberation movement, where women
were allowed to come out out ofthe kitchen, so to speak.
I don't have to just be a momor a wife.
I can be a human being that hasmy own desires and wants and
purpose and things I want tomove towards.
Maybe I want kids, maybe Idon't want kids, and lo and
(32:43):
behold, hey, I can have my ownbank account, I can vote.
My voice matters.
I'm a human and that wasawesome.
This is such a positive thingfor our world and we want that
to spread as far and wide aspossible.
Again, it doesn't mean if youdon't want to just be a mother,
you can't just be a mother, butthe point is you get to choose
it, you are not forced into it.
(33:03):
This is the great liberation.
A little bit after that, we sawthe first burst with kind of
hippie men.
Men were allowed to start tohave interiors.
Oh, we can grow out our hair alittle bit, we can play the
drums, we can start to feelwe're doing a little bit of
drugs.
Maybe we're not going to have asteady job, I can become an
artist, whatever, but what'simportant is the shift for men
(33:29):
started a little after women, sowe're a little behind, but this
idea of men are allowed to haveinteriors, we are allowed to
feel we deserve to feel good.
Not everything has to beattached to a goal or be about
toughness.
We can be connected, we can askfor help.
(33:50):
Whatever you want to say aboutthese different things, that
started to come online and it'ssuper important that this has
been liberated for us menBecause, like we said before
that men's bodies were mostlydisposable throughout most of
human history because, yeah, itjust takes one man to repopulate
a village, but you need manywomen.
So if you're going to lose abody, lose a male body.
(34:12):
But that's all started to shift.
And what's so important here isagain, whatever term you want
to use, I don't care if you'rethe toughest manly man in the
world.
You have an inner feminine,just like every woman has an
inner masculine.
These are just energies andcapacities inside of us and
what's happening is culture andpeople grow, is they're becoming
(34:36):
more fluid and moredifferentiated.
So there's, instead of justthis or this, there's a whole
spectrum and again, that'sbeautiful.
The interesting thing about itis the more that differentiation
and that spectrum and thatfluidity comes online, though,
the more important it is tospectrum and that fluidity comes
online, though, the moreimportant it is to understand
these energies and how they worktogether, because the ideas at
(34:58):
the pole, that's where theymostly energize each other,
right?
Yes, so just like poles of amagnet, if they're opposites,
they pull together, they'reattracted.
If they're the same best casescenario they're neutral.
Worst case scenario theyactually repel each other.
Yes, and this is one of the bigshifts in the kind of
(35:21):
relationship world right now isbecause a lot of men have
cultivated their feminine and alot of women have cultivated
their masculine.
There's a lot of reversepolarity out there right now,
where women are out therekicking ass, making tons of
money, and there's lots of menwho have no sense of direction
or purpose or are struggling,but are smoking weed every day,
(35:43):
playing lots of video games,really enjoying their life, and
it's causing a little bit offriction because everyone's how
do we do this?
Now?
This work is about consciouslybringing these energies online,
right for this more integratedpiece we were talking about.
That is that kind ofintegration of art in in balls,
as we say, but another way tothink about it is.
It's the integration of ourinner masculine and inner
(36:05):
feminine.
The yin and yang symbol is sogreat because the way it's set
up right is there's a dab ofeach one inside of each one,
which makes this super clear.
And this integrated version.
What I would say is you can'tactually be a fully integrated
masculine leader in my book ifyou don't have access to your
(36:25):
inner feminine, just like youcan't be a fully realized
feminine leader, I think if youdon't have a certain capacity of
masculinity inside and this isthe big thing we're learning to
do now as men that, yes, I canhave drive, I can have goals.
There's incredible things Iwant to create or serve ways.
(36:47):
I want to serve people in theworld, and if I am doing that at
the expense of my own body, I'mstill playing the old way.
Yeah, I'm still playing by theold rules.
So this knowing of I have aninner system, an inner feeling
state, and call it feminine orwhatever you want, but that it's
(37:07):
.
You can't always be in theseason of build, it's not always
summer, but that it's.
You can't always be in theseason of build, it's not always
summer.
Sometimes we have to slow downinto fall and winter and restore
ourselves, take care of ourbodies, bring pleasure into our
bodies, not be totallygoal-oriented.
Connect with our friends, ourfamily, our children, and this
(37:31):
is a high order demand, in asense, that not a lot of men
have figured out how to do.
How can I be kick-ass in mycareer but not be neglecting my
child?
So I'm not raising another sonwho, 30 years from now, ends up
in a men's group and says, yeah,my dad was never around, I had
to figure everything out myself.
How do we do both?
(37:52):
I think that's a big part ofwhat we're talking about here,
and what I've just seen is asmen make this realization and
actually realize.
The great thing about touchingyour own inner feminine in a
sense is you realize.
I think this is so great forgender dynamics.
It's just as powerful as themasculine.
(38:13):
I think you're all tough as men.
Women can wipe a man out ifthey want.
They always know how to takecare of him, in a sense, and we
think in that early masculinemachismo, domineering sense like
leading is the bravest thing.
Surrendering is unbelievablycourageous.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
When you just fully give your trust to someone, that
is an unbelievably bold andcourageous act of leadership, in
my viewpoint, and as menexperience that inside, it
changes them outside.
And then it changes how theylead in the world, because
they've actually had theexperience of what it means, in
(38:58):
some sense, to surrender, to beheld, to not be the one holding
it all together.
And when you've had thatexperience inside, it changes
how you care for and can leadpeople on the outside.
So I think it's incrediblyimportant to realize it's way
more nuanced than I'm a man.
I got to just be in mymasculine.
(39:19):
You're a woman you just got tobe in your feminine.
These are energies we all getto play with.
Yes A full, healthy human beinghas to be cultivating and taking
care of both.
And when men don't their bodiesfail and they pay for it, it
does absolutely show up in ourbodies.
For sure, and I was doing somework with Owen Marcus and with
(39:43):
his MELD group and really thatwas my first deep experience
with somatic work and it wasvery powerful to realize and
understand how much of thisenergy that I'm holding and that
we tend to hold as men like toyour analogy as a young child
and having having being upsetand told okay, you can't be
angry, and they and we hold itin and we tend to do that.
(40:05):
But I recognize that even moretoday, as I get close to
creeping up here to being 59,how often I'm holding my breath
and I go that's interesting,what's happening there for me?
Why am I holding my breath?
What's causing this?
And sometimes it is just ahabit, but more often than not
there's something around that'sa trigger, small or big, that
(40:26):
it's happening and that's mybody's reaction to it.
And so getting in, just doingit, talking about what you've
been saying, all this wholeconversation is really helping
us understand how to utilize allaspects of the energies that we
hold in our bodies versus justtrying to be the singular, less
dynamic individual.
Yeah, it's about another way tothink about this is I think one
(40:55):
of the new skill sets andcapacities that's incredibly
important for us men tocultivate is fluidity, the
ability to shift back and forthas needed because we're able to
actually be more effective inthe world.
That's the funny thing too,guys don't realize is you will,
in the end, get more done.
One of the myths I see so manymen I work with and I've fallen
(41:17):
prey to it too fall for over andover is oh, there's something I
want to do in the world.
I'm having a hard time doing it.
I need to set better goals andpush myself more, when in fact,
what's actually happening istheir nervous system is
dysregulated, burnt out,overwhelmed, and so, no matter
how much you try to push or goalor structure, you know what?
(41:46):
Maybe I need a little moreconnection in my life.
Maybe I should join a men'sgroup, maybe I should get into
some therapy, maybe I shouldstart sleeping more, stop
drinking so much, and ournervous system comes back to a
place of stability andregulation Almost inevitably.
(42:09):
It's not that we have to forceourselves.
There's an impulse to takeaction again.
There's just oh, now I havesome energy and I want to do
this thing and I start doing it.
And a lot of men don't stop todo that part and will keep
trying to push themselves withstrategy and planning and goal
setting.
Oh, and I need this planner orthis framework or getting things
done, and they're justrearranging decks on the deck
(42:31):
chair, totally ignoring thestate of their body and nervous
system underneath.
Yeah, completely agree withthat.
That makes so much sense andhappy to see that there's, that
men's work is flourishing againand all the different ways that
it's showing up in varieties,and there's something out there
for some, for somebody, and soif there's a piece of work,
(42:53):
whether you're doing stuff withjason and evolutionary men or
you do our work or somebodyelse's work, there's.
There is no lack of men'sgroups for you to get involved
with, and I think there's.
So that's where the most powerresides is being around other
men.
It's how we learn healthymasculinity is by being around
other men and getting anopportunity to model what's
(43:14):
before us and of everything thatwe spoke about today, jason,
and maybe there was something wedidn't get a chance to touch on
.
What would be the takeawayyou'd want our listeners to have
yeah, don't do it alone.
As I say, the power of communityis building resilience in your
life as men.
So a buddy of mine, another man, told me community is immunity.
And this is my message to allthe bravado kind of men who are
(43:38):
still this current out there,especially now that, oh, we
tried the soft thing and itdidn't work, so we got to go
back 50 years to the tough thing.
And the message I just want toget out to you guys is I don't
care how tough you think you are, how much power you have in the
world right now, there will bea day where your body will fail
you, where there will besomething you want to do and
(44:00):
your body will not be able to doit in that moment.
And that is the moment where youare going to get confronted
first hand, right in your face,with what kind of community and
connection have I cultivated inmy life and they have done
plenty of research studies withpeople who are in the terminal
(44:20):
stages of their lives.
They're about to die, and theone thing they talk about is
always I wish I had spent moretime with people that I care
about.
It's not I wish I'd done thisgoal or done this thing or
whatever.
It's man, I didn't spend enoughtime with the people I care
about.
It's not I wish I'd done thisgoal or done this thing or
whatever.
It's man, I didn't spend enoughtime with the people I cared
about in my life, inrelationships or love, whatever
you want to call it.
(44:41):
In a lot of ways, I think that'sreally the only thing you get
to take with you after death.
So something like a men's groupis a great place to start to
reformat and be like yournamesake.
It's a revolutionary actagainst culture to say you know
what?
No, we can be allies for eachother.
As men, we don't have to holdthis stuff in, and in fact, when
(45:01):
we do that, we become strongerand more resilient and, like I
said, you can get more stuffdone.
I've gotten way more done sinceI've been in men's groups than
before.
Absolutely what a beautiful wayto wrap up today's
conversations.
I want to say once again Jason,thank you so much for coming
here and helping us really breakfree from these outdated and
old paradigms, to really startto reclaim our vitality, build
(45:25):
deeper connections andrelationships with ourselves and
especially with others.
And so if men are interested ingetting a hold of you and
joining and participating inyour work, what's the best way
for them to do that?
Yeah, easiest way to keep upwith me is just head over to my
website at evolutionarymen.
You can see my programs, mypodcast retreats, all that kind
of good stuff Outstanding.
(45:45):
I'm going to make sure that, aswell as wherever else that
you're hiding on social media,to make sure folks get an
opportunity to reach out to you.
I want to say once again, thankyou so much and really enjoyed
today's conversation.
Thanks so much for having me,alan.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Thank you for listening to the revolutionary
man podcast.
Are you ready to own yourdestiny, to become more the man
you are destined to be?
Join the brotherhood that isthe Awakened man at
theawakendmannet and startforging a new destiny today.
imagine living your life feeling disconnected from
your purpose, your relationshipsor even yourself.
Many men are struggling withoutdated expectation of what it
means to be a man carrying theweight of social norms that no
longer serve them or anyone else, and these pressures can create
loneliness, confusion and alack of clarity on how to lead
(00:20):
in love, life and community.
But what if there was a way foryou to break free, to shed
these old paradigms, to stepinto a healthier, more empowered
way of being?
In today's episode, we're goingto explore how embracing men's
work, uncovering shadow elementsand building deep, supportive
relationships can help menreclaim their vitality, purpose
(00:44):
and leadership in all aspects oflife.
And so if this sounds like atopic that could be interesting
to you or to someone else, whydon't you take a moment and hit
like subscribe and leave acomment?
Let us know what you thinkabout today's episode.
Please do share it so thatothers who are also interested
can find this episode even moreeasily.
And with that, let's get onwith today's episode.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
The average man today is sleepwalking through life,
many never reaching their truepotential, let alone ever
crossing the finish line toliving a purposeful life.
Yet the hunger still exists,albeit buried amidst his
cluttered mind, misguidedbeliefs and values that no
longer serve him.
It's time to align yourself forgreatness.
(01:31):
It's time to become arevolutionary man.
Stay strong, my brother.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Welcome everyone to the Revolutionary man Podcast.
I'm the founder of the Wakingman Movement and your host, Alan
DeMonsoul.
What if parts of yourself mightbe hidden, maybe even disowned
Silently?
These things are holding usback from living the life we
truly want, wouldn't you agree?
How might joining a men's groupor engaging in men's work
(02:00):
transform not just our personalgrowth, but also our
relationships and our ability tolead?
Now, this is a journey ofreclaiming purpose and vitality,
and it starts with trulyunderstanding who we are,
embracing our shadow elementsand building connections with
others that support our growth.
Today, we're going to explorehow some tools can help you
(02:20):
transform the men that we showup as in the world today.
So I'm going to introduce myguest.
Jason Lange is a men'sembodiment coach.
He's a group facilitator and anevolutionary guide, and he
helps men drop in and wake up toa deeper clarity in their
life's purpose and theirrelationships.
He believes every man should bein a men's group for the growth
(02:41):
and support of opportunitiesthat they provide, and I
couldn't agree more.
Jason's a certified no more MrNice Guy coach, and he's studied
and trained with leaders suchas John Weiland, dr Robert
Glover, junpo Roshi, trippLanier and Ken Wilburn.
So we're going to get into lotsof topics today.
Welcome to the show, jason.
(03:01):
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Brother, so excited to be here.
Alan, thanks for having meExcellent Well here.
On our podcast, theRevolutionary man, we always
talk about all of us being on ahero's journey.
We call it a hero's quest, andso I'm going to ask you about
that.
Tell us about a time of yearwhere you had that death and
rebirth moment and how thatexperience shaped you in the man
(03:22):
you are today and the work thatyou're doing moment, and how
that experience shaped you andthe man you are today and the
work that you're doing.
Sure, I would say it wasactually in my transition to
doing this work in a lot of ways.
I had been doing it for my ownheart and soul and growth and
transformation and maybe aboutseven years ago decided, hey, I
(03:46):
think I want to give this a go,and partially because of some of
the pressures of the men's workworld and partially because I
just wasn't patient enough, Idid a burn all the boats, burn
the bridges strategy and I hadbeen kind of making a living as
an artist and a web developerand I let go of all those
clients and was like I'm justgoing to go head in and make it
(04:08):
work as a coach.
And I had been recently married, we had been planning on
starting a family and I fellflat on my face.
It was a brutal first year whereI dug myself into many tens of
thousands of dollars of debt andcaused a crisis in my
relationship, in my buddingfamily in a sense, and in my
(04:33):
bank account, and had to reallywith the support of some men in
my life and coming to terms withsome disagreements I had with
my wife at the time get clear ofokay, it's not that simple.
I'm going to have to do bothfor a while and this dream of
going kind of full time at firsthad to die and I had to create
(04:55):
and cultivate a level ofperseverance.
And okay, I'm going to have todo two things right now.
I'm going to have to do work Ilove and I'm going to have to do
work I love and I'm going tohave to do work I don't love.
That allows me to do the work Ilove, and that was a long, hard
journey that in retrospect Iwould have done very different,
(05:16):
but taught me a lot of lessons.
Actually, now that I'm throughit, that I actually see play out
with many men and some of thesome of what you mentioned here,
but some of the actual shadowwork elements of even in the
men's work world, particularlyaround purpose and drive and
whatnot that I have found to bea lot more nuanced than we often
wanna give it imagine it to be.
(05:37):
Yeah, absolutely, boy, thatstory resonates loudly for me
and, as I've been doing thismen's work since 2020 and just
actually just prior to thepandemic, and while it's still a
, I'm in that same position ofit's an and business for me.
There's the other work that I dothat well, I enjoy.
(05:57):
I don't desperately or deeplylove it any longer.
It does allow me the ability todo this work, and so it's
interesting how life shapes usand puts these things before us,
and really it reveals who weare as men, and so let's talk a
little bit we're just tickling alittle bit here about this idea
of this shadow work.
Let's get into that work andhow that work has helped
(06:19):
transform you and the workyou're doing with other men.
Yeah, shadow work is a big partof what I offer with men now
and, like the word men's work ormeditation.
It can mean a lot of differentthings, but in general it's
about making conscious theunconscious, bringing back to
the surface, in a sense, thatwhich we can't see or that which
(06:42):
might be running the show forus that we're unaware of.
And they call it the shadowright, because it's imagine
looking at your shadow, you'relike what shadow?
But oftentimes to other peopleit's blindingly obvious, like
you got a big shadow right there, man, part of why group work is
so potent and so powerful.
But my journey with men's workand shadow work actually started
(07:03):
around the same time.
I was in my mid-20s and hadbeen suffering for a long time.
Grew up in the Midwest of theUnited States White guy, lower
middle class, had my basicsecurity needs met, but my
family just did not have a senseof interiority.
There was no emotionalconnection and there was no
(07:23):
physical connection.
Had a lot of neglect.
Growing up Again, it wasn't amalevolent household, but I was
just left to my own devices andthat caused a lot of problems as
I got a little older.
When you're young you're justlike this is what's normal.
And then, as I became a teenagerand started leaving the house
(07:44):
and going into other people'shouses and then, in particular,
as I hit puberty and foundmyself interested in my case and
dating the opposite sex andfound I was terrified.
I had no idea how to talk to awoman.
I would get extremelyuncomfortable in my body when I
was around them, sweaty, tight,and it caused a lot of pain for
(08:05):
me and over time it didn't getany better.
Right I saw my friends havingrelationships, having
experiences, and I kept fallinginto the same traps over and
over again and that pain was sogreat caused me to say hey,
there's got to be a better way,right, there's got to be
something going on here.
And like a lot of men first,that took me in a philosophical
(08:29):
direction where I started tryingto study and learn about
philosophy and how to have abetter mind.
But I got lucky, because thenthat eventually took me to men's
work in somatic therapy and inparticular they swirled together
in.
One of my first experiences in adeep men's group was with an
older male facilitator who ledme through a shadow work process
(08:51):
.
I had been in therapy for maybe18 months before that and it
was useful, but it wasn'tmassively moving the ball for me
.
In particular.
I was pretty sophisticated withmy protective mechanisms and I
could go in and talk about I'mokay and keep it on the surface
and stuff I had built some skillat, apparently.
(09:13):
But then I'm in this men'sgroup with this male facilitator
who leads a process of shadowwork I'm now trained in and
within 10 minutes I'm on my backand I'm crying like a baby,
sobbing, my hands are up in theair and I'm saying hold me, like
a two-year-old boy crying forhis mother, and I hadn't wept
(09:34):
like that ever in my life.
And I got up from that and Iwas like what on earth just
happened?
What was going on?
I didn't even know that wasinside me.
And so began my kind of loveaffair with shadow work, where
part of my process wasreintegrating a deeply neglected
infant and toddler that hadnever really been held or
(09:55):
touched and because of that,felt so much discomfort around
that when I was around women inparticular, that I would either
totally freeze or come at themtoo aggressively because I was
just so hungry for touch.
And so I kept doing shadow workafter that and eventually
decided, hey, I love this work,I want to learn how to do it and
(10:18):
trained with my trainer and nowlead shadow work for men and
it's one of the most powerfultools I think I have in my
toolkit at least that I'veexperienced.
And then, in particular, whenwe combine it with a group,
something really profound andmagic happens, because men get
to see other men deepening intothemselves and seeing the light
(10:40):
bulbs of their nervous system gooff essentially light bulbs of
their nervous system go offessentially and for men to be
able to experience and feelthings inside themselves they
had never felt before andsuddenly for all these old
patterns and conditioning andhabits to become clear as to oh
wow, I never would have guessedthis.
(11:01):
One time, when I was young,this thing happened and my whole
nervous system has adapted tothat and I've been living from
that for the sometimes 20, 30,40 years.
And these things have massiverepercussions for us, and
particularly as us men get alittle older, when we're in our
20s and 30s.
I kind of joke.
It's like we come with apreloaded credit card that's got
(11:22):
lots of space and we just wecan work hard, we can of joke.
It's like we come with apreloaded credit card that's got
lots of space and we just wecan work hard, we can party hard
, we don't have to take goodcare of ourselves.
You start hitting mid thirtiesand then forties and then
fifties, and that changes fastand those bills come due.
And one of the biggest things alot of men I work with struggle
(11:43):
with is just energy management.
They get tired, they getoverwhelmed, their bodies start
to fail them, they sometimes getnumb or depressed and what I
(12:06):
have found is there's almostalways a direct correlation to
some kind of shadow material inthere.
Because another way to thinkabout shadow material is anytime
, for whatever reason, we stopourselves from feeling.
So you can imagine if you saw ayoung boy fully crying because
he hurt himself and dad comes upto him and he yells at him stop
crying.
How does the boy do it, nick?
Yeah, he stops breathing, hisbody tightens up and he holds it
(12:31):
without even realizing it.
And that process of holdingthis stuff happens at the
smallest levels inside ournervous system and it takes
energy to hold things.
And as we're holding thosethings, that energy, that life
force is not available for us toheal our bodies, to move
forward in our lives.
(12:52):
So shadow work.
Another amazing thing about itis it's a way to reclaim our
vitality, and I see it time andtime again.
Where men go in, have anincredible experience of
sometimes feeling something theyhad never felt before in their
lives, and on the other side ofit, they look younger, there's
more breath, there's more blood,their face softens, they're
(13:15):
smiling, there's just more ofthem there.
So that's a long-winded answerto the first question there.
Yeah, no, what a greatexplanation there, just writing
down a bunch of notes, and oneof the things that I wrote down
was you had these sophisticatedmechanisms and you started off
today's conversation about howyou started on the philosophical
(13:35):
side of understanding yourselfand men's work.
And that also resonated with me, because I think, as we start
to learn something, that's wherewe go.
We read books, we take courses,we do some training and we tend
to keep it here in our minds.
And one of my mentors said tome the longest journey that
we're ever going to take isgoing to go from our head to our
(13:56):
heart and being able to do thatwork.
And then you talked aboutreally finally getting the
experience of releasing all ofthat through through shadow work
, and and that was because ofthe one incident that has helped
shape who you were and wedeveloped these coping
mechanisms and it continues to.
(14:17):
Sometimes it's, it will serveus to some extent until it no
longer does, and so I liked that.
The way you've been explainingthe shadow work.
Did you want to expand on that?
I know just, I love that framein that.
Yeah, shadow work can be rootedin acute, one-time things.
It can be chronic things.
It can be all kinds of traumathat sometimes we just lock off
(14:41):
in our nervous system and carrywith us Again.
The amazing thing I foundworking with guys over these
last seven years is men willcome to me in their 60s and 70s
and have things they've nevershared or touched from decades
ago, and all of those years werespent with a little bit of
(15:01):
their life force, a little bitof their consciousness, on
holding that thing inside.
And it has an incredible costfor us as men, another one of
which is if we aren't able tofully bury it, and there's still
some of the discomfort there.
Most of us men are not taughtfrom a young age to identify
(15:22):
what we're feeling in our bodiesand our hearts, let alone how
to express them or process them.
So when there's any discomfortin there, what do most men do?
We turn to things outside ofourselves to numb it or change
it.
Weed, booze, porn, sex food,overworking TV, you name it.
(15:44):
And those are the medicinesthat most of our cultures say
are okay for men, but while theyprovide temporary relief, they
never actually treat the symptom.
Yeah, I completely agree,because it ends up by just
another way to mask what it is,that we're what's truly going on
, and because we aren't able toarticulate it and name that
(16:05):
feeling or that, that thingthat's happening for us, and
then we tend to find these othercoping mechanisms to distract
us away from actually diving inand doing that work.
And you started talking a littlebit about societal expectations
, and I think there's a lot ofthem, when we're going to see a
major shift again now with the.
You're in Colorado, I'm up inCanada, you just had your
(16:27):
federal election, we're about tohave one here in the coming
months, and so, yeah, howsociety shapes us also impacts
how we respond to it.
And so let's talk a little bitabout what are some of these
societal expectations and howare they contributing to the
struggles that men are facingtoday?
Yeah, so you know this word isloaded and people have different
(16:49):
feelings about it these days.
In general, we'd call this thepatriarchy, but in a more zoomed
in way, we could call this theman box, which is really just
this idea that there's a box ofbehaviors men are expected to
stay within and as long as youstay within that you're
considered a man.
If you step out of that, youare not considered a man, and
(17:10):
it's literally just like achecklist.
In here in the West, which Iwould include Canada and the US
in it's be tough.
Don't share your feelings,never cry, don't ask for help.
Men above women.
There's these differentparadigms there that really
confine men quite quite a bitand that it's pretty wild cause
(17:31):
so much harm to men.
It's not even just to women,it's actually to men.
I was just reading a new studythat came out that was talking
about men who strongly identifywith these kind of traditional
masculine values, some of whichcan be associated with stoicism.
In some different sense, theyare way more likely to commit
(17:51):
suicide.
It has a real cost and thatsame kind of man box tends to
emphasize lone wolf mentality.
Right that it's better to do italone.
Relying on other people is weak, and the joke with that is well
in nature.
It's actually the lone wolfthat's the one that's going to
(18:13):
die sooner because it was kickedout of the pack.
It's not going to make it.
And in real life again, theevidence shows that loneliness,
isolation they've done researchstudies just as damaging to
longevity and health as smokinga pack and a half of cigarettes
a day yeah, it has a huge impacton our well-being as men.
(18:34):
And the other wild thing aboutthis idea of the man box, alan,
that this other great study Iwas seeing is they told people
about what do you see that marksthe different, the transition
from a girl to a woman.
Like, how do you know when agirl has become a woman?
(18:56):
And lo and behold, both men andwomen tended to report back
biological things.
So she has her menstrual cycle,she's developed breasts, her
body has changed, she can rearchildren In those same polls.
They asked the other questionwhat marks the transition of a
boy to a man?
(19:16):
Lo and behold, it was notbiological, it was cultural
expectations of what a man issupposed to be.
He's able to take care ofhimself, he's able to provide X,
y and Z.
So the big difference there isthat you can be a fully grown
man but still be considered aboy, right?
(19:36):
Because of these man boxattributes and all this stuff
weighs on men from a very youngage.
I often even see it.
Most of us have seen it, if notexperienced it, in just how we
were parented.
Boys are often parented verydifferent from girls.
You scrape your knee oh, get up, you're okay, you're tough,
just get back on the swing.
(19:57):
We're taught to stop crying,often as boys.
Then we get into the schoolsystem, which Robert Bly has
written a lot about.
Often it's changing, for sure,but still predominantly women
that are teachers.
And then just the nature of theindustrialized school system
really is sit still.
And then just the nature of theindustrialized school system
(20:17):
really is sit still.
And what we know about boys andtheir hormone profiles is they
need to move their bodies.
They need to move their bodies.
But they get in school andwe're told sit still, so stop
crying, sit still.
Two messages right there we getfrom a young age that are
(20:39):
essentially what they'reactually saying is ignore what's
happening in your body, yeah,override it with your head.
That's more important.
Then we become adolescents.
We get into that kind of lockerroom age, very competitive.
Some boys' bodies are changing,some aren't.
Social dynamics come into playand we quickly learn wow, don't
share anything vulnerablebecause you will be, at worst,
(21:00):
made fun of for it and at bestmade fun of for it, at worst you
will be actively bullied for it.
Yeah, and then we get out ofthere and we get into the
workforce and lo and beholdwhat's success.
Oh, he works 80 hours a week.
He pushes himself, he neverstops so great Same thing.
He's ignoring his body.
And then I've worked with plentyof guys in their 40s, 50s CEOs
(21:20):
who wake up one day and theycan't get out of bed because
they've just burnt out afterdecades of pushing their bodies
too hard.
But lo and behold, again, allthat is pushing us as men into
this expectation and this box ofbehavior that frankly kills us
and causes us to hold even moreof that stuff inside.
(21:43):
Where I'll work with men whoare saying, yeah, I went out
with my buddies last night andyet I'm still terribly lonely.
We talked about the game, butI'm in the middle of the worst
divorce in my life and back atweekend I can't talk about that
because I don't want to burdenthem and there's still this just
deep loneliness and inabilityto share what's going on inside.
Yeah, we've touched on a bunchof stuff there and I in your
(22:06):
story.
There you talked about how youhadn't been touched, and I think
that's so true, for I'm theoldest of five and I can
remember as, as my siblings werecoming along, they sat on my
dad's lap until they could walk,basically, and then after that
there wasn't any real physical,anything physical happening,
(22:27):
especially with the boys.
Now I have one sister.
She was always nurtureddifferently than us four boys,
nurtured differently than usfour boys, and I think that's
true for a lot of men that westruggle because we don't, we
didn't learn to have thataffection, and then, on top of
that, how to manage our emotions, and so we go into the habit of
(22:49):
repressing everything, and weall know what ends up by
happening.
And you hold a basketballunderwater.
Eventually that thing's goingto explode.
And so I think it's really keythat as men start to, as we
start to do more men's work, westart to understand that it's
(23:10):
okay for us to have feelings, tobe able to acknowledge them and
work with them.
I think that Viktor Frankltalked about that stimulus
between that time, betweenstimulus and response, is that
greatest opportunity for us tofind growth and if we can just
find that one moment to be ableto exercise a different choice.
So I do think that there's aspectrum on how we show up in
terms of different aspects.
(23:31):
And if you're built and youwant to be the CEO and you want
to drive and do that, I thinkthat's great.
But are you also payingattention to the other aspects
of your life?
Because, in the end, what is itgoing to be worth for you if
you're stuck in a hospital bedat best or even at worst, much
more painful for family?
And you talk a lot, jason, inyour work also about a fierce,
(23:55):
loving masculine heart.
Let's talk about what that isall about and how we can really
embody this as men.
Yeah, part of the opportunitymen's work and facilitators like
you and me get to bring forwardin the world right now is why a
lot of men are struggling is wehave not been given a vision of
what we can grow into.
(24:16):
Men love to show up and growand move forward when they have
a path.
The problem is, as I say, mostmen grew up only seeing three
potential archetypes formasculinity.
One, the traditional kind of myway or the highway macho jerk.
This is the old school machismobravado.
(24:37):
Yeah, I'm tough, do what I sayI dominate you and I put myself
first, regardless of the impacton you, and there's a certain
power in that, for sure.
But those men we have plenty ofevidence throughout history
cause plenty of harm to othermen, to women, to children, to
the environment, you name it.
(24:58):
Now, a lot of men saw guys likethat or were raised by fathers
like that and said, uh-uh, I'mnot doing that, no way.
And then the pendulum swung,starting in the 60s and 70s, a
little to the other side of youknow what?
I want?
To be safe.
I want to be a safe person.
(25:19):
I don't want to be mean, Idon't want to be aggressive, I
don't want to dominate anyoneand that was the birth of this
term, the nice guy right whichis, yeah, I'm a nice guy, I
don't.
I'm not aggressive, I try notto cause discomfort, I want to
make sure everyone around me issafe and is okay, and in fact,
what I end up doing is Iprioritize other people over
(25:40):
myself.
So I totally reverse that in asense, where I'm only focused on
other people.
Meanwhile inside I'm suffering,I can't set any boundaries, I'm
not getting any of my own needsmet, I'm overworked, I'm over
fried, I'm treated poorly.
Whatever that might be, thatone also doesn't work.
There's also this kind of olderone that hangs out in cultures
(26:01):
like I was talking about, whichis the Stoic, and I sometimes
paint the picture of this as,like you know, the grandfather
that went through World War IIyeah, never talked about it once
in his whole life Just shows up, takes care of the family,
tight lid Sh, shares nothinginside Again, really admirable
(26:22):
in some sense but is oftenaddicted to alcohol or really
suffering on the inside.
So we men, we see these andwe're like, what are we supposed
to do?
Like, literally, who are wesupposed to be and that's part
of the problem right now In thiskind of third way, the
integrated man, whatever youwant to call it, the
evolutionary man, therevolutionary man, our sexuality
(26:43):
, our want, our drive and ourheart, our openness, our
sensitivity, our attunement toimpact, and then connect that
(27:05):
with a deep level of awarenessthat helps us guide us through
life.
And it's absolutely incrediblewhen it comes together, because
most men are actually dying tohave this kind of presence in
their life.
And I call it you've probablyseen it in your groups, but it's
like the spinach in the teethmoment, right where you want
someone in your life who, whenyou're walking through the world
(27:27):
and you got a big piece ofspinach in your mouth, sticking
there in your teeth, they'regoing to stop you and say, hey,
man, you have a piece of spinachin your teeth and at first
you're going to feel like alittle embarrassed, then you're
going to clean it out, and thenyou're going to stop you and say
, hey, man, you have a piece ofspinach in your teeth and at
first you're going to feel likea little embarrassed, then
you're going to clean it out andthen you're going to be like,
oh my God, thank you for tellingme that, because I saw 20 other
people today and no onementioned it.
And I've been walking throughthe world feeling now and
(27:50):
looking like an idiot.
And this kind of fierce, loving,attuned masculine is the
masculine that calls each otherforward, that it's not shame
based, so it's not about you'renot good enough, you're bad.
It's hey, man, I can see thevision of who you can be in the
world and I'm going to hold thatvision with you and if you
(28:14):
don't hit that mark, I'm goingto let you know.
And again, I'm not going toshame you for it, but I'm going
to join in there with you inthat moment.
And, as I say, the great giftof the masculine, the father
energy we all need is let'sfigure it out together.
Hey, man, yeah, what you'redoing right now dating those two
women without them knowingabout it that's not cool.
(28:36):
It's causing harm to you, tothem.
So how are we going to cleanthis up?
And then we're going toworkshop it.
Okay, do I need to haveconversation?
Do I need it to end with one ofthem, both of them, whatever
that might be, in that kind offierce, loving presence of I see
you and I'm not going to letyou get away with being anything
(28:56):
but your best.
It takes power, so it takes anability to penetrate and be
fierce, in a sense, and wake aguy up and, oftentimes in a
loving way, confront him.
Or this great new term I heardrecently carefrontation.
You got to confront him withcare, right, and then it takes
that heart, that and I love youand I'm here with you and we're
(29:18):
going to figure this out.
And that type of masculinepresence.
It's not even just men that arecraving it.
The world is craving it becausethe feminine women, they're
doing their best to keep thiswhole thing afloat right now.
I would say and count me intothe faction that thinks, right
(29:39):
now we don't need lessmasculinity in the world.
We actually need more healthymasculinity to join healthy
femininity in terms of ridingthe ship and just creating as
much love, truth and goodnessfor as many people as possible.
I couldn't agree more.
I couldn't agree more.
I think we're in a position nowin the world where more and
more men are starting to reallyunderstand that we do have to
(30:02):
have this integrated being ofwho we are, what we want, we
think we do, but it's based onsomebody else's perspective of
who we should be, and so are wereally truly solid on that.
And the more times that we cando this work and understand
(30:27):
everything about us, then we canshow up and be much stronger as
men, and that makes that makesthe world a better place versus
just being the being, the bully,like you talked about, that
macho guy.
Leave that for the wrestlingring Saturday afternoon.
Saturday evening.
Go and enjoy an experience thatdoes show a bit of what life's
(30:51):
about but it's not really who weare as men and really become
much better than we are.
In men's work, too, we about.
There's this feminine aspect ofit.
Sometimes that makes guys alittle bit uneasy, maybe a
little cringeworthy, but westill have aspects of ourselves,
if we truly want to beintegrated men, that the
feminine does play a role in ourlife.
(31:12):
So let's talk a little bitabout how that shows up in your
work and in your role.
Absolutely and some people getall charged up about these terms
because they can be loaded andthey have cultural baggage and,
whether you want to call itmasculine, feminine, alpha and
omega, yin and yang, feeling andperspective, flow and go.
There's so many ways you cantalk about this.
(31:35):
Consciousness and light theseare two polar energies in the
world, in the universe that justshow up.
The most simple is life anddeath.
Inhale and exhale.
You need them both.
You need them both, and one ofthe big shifts of the last 70,
80 years or so has been theliberation of these energies
(32:00):
from biology.
So it used to be if you wereborn a woman, you were expected
to become a mother and do thesecertain roles.
If you were born a man, youwere a father, you had to do
these certain roles and we livedin pretty narrow windows.
There was some culturalvariation, but overall there
wasn't as much as you mightexpect.
That started to change right inthe 50s and 60s, particularly
(32:22):
with feminism, women'sliberation movement, where women
were allowed to come out out ofthe kitchen, so to speak.
I don't have to just be a momor a wife.
I can be a human being that hasmy own desires and wants and
purpose and things I want tomove towards.
Maybe I want kids, maybe Idon't want kids, and lo and
(32:43):
behold, hey, I can have my ownbank account, I can vote.
My voice matters.
I'm a human and that wasawesome.
This is such a positive thingfor our world and we want that
to spread as far and wide aspossible.
Again, it doesn't mean if youdon't want to just be a mother,
you can't just be a mother, butthe point is you get to choose
it, you are not forced into it.
(33:03):
This is the great liberation.
A little bit after that, we sawthe first burst with kind of
hippie men.
Men were allowed to start tohave interiors.
Oh, we can grow out our hair alittle bit, we can play the
drums, we can start to feelwe're doing a little bit of
drugs.
Maybe we're not going to have asteady job, I can become an
artist, whatever, but what'simportant is the shift for men
(33:29):
started a little after women, sowe're a little behind, but this
idea of men are allowed to haveinteriors, we are allowed to
feel we deserve to feel good.
Not everything has to beattached to a goal or be about
toughness.
We can be connected, we can askfor help.
(33:50):
Whatever you want to say aboutthese different things, that
started to come online and it'ssuper important that this has
been liberated for us menBecause, like we said before
that men's bodies were mostlydisposable throughout most of
human history because, yeah, itjust takes one man to repopulate
a village, but you need manywomen.
So if you're going to lose abody, lose a male body.
(34:12):
But that's all started to shift.
And what's so important here isagain, whatever term you want
to use, I don't care if you'rethe toughest manly man in the
world.
You have an inner feminine,just like every woman has an
inner masculine.
These are just energies andcapacities inside of us and
what's happening is culture andpeople grow, is they're becoming
(34:36):
more fluid and moredifferentiated.
So there's, instead of justthis or this, there's a whole
spectrum and again, that'sbeautiful.
The interesting thing about itis the more that differentiation
and that spectrum and thatfluidity comes online, though,
the more important it is tospectrum and that fluidity comes
online, though, the moreimportant it is to understand
these energies and how they worktogether, because the ideas at
(34:58):
the pole, that's where theymostly energize each other,
right?
Yes, so just like poles of amagnet, if they're opposites,
they pull together, they'reattracted.
If they're the same best casescenario they're neutral.
Worst case scenario theyactually repel each other.
Yes, and this is one of the bigshifts in the kind of
(35:21):
relationship world right now isbecause a lot of men have
cultivated their feminine and alot of women have cultivated
their masculine.
There's a lot of reversepolarity out there right now,
where women are out therekicking ass, making tons of
money, and there's lots of menwho have no sense of direction
or purpose or are struggling,but are smoking weed every day,
(35:43):
playing lots of video games,really enjoying their life, and
it's causing a little bit offriction because everyone's how
do we do this?
Now?
This work is about consciouslybringing these energies online,
right for this more integratedpiece we were talking about.
That is that kind ofintegration of art in in balls,
as we say, but another way tothink about it is.
It's the integration of ourinner masculine and inner
(36:05):
feminine.
The yin and yang symbol is sogreat because the way it's set
up right is there's a dab ofeach one inside of each one,
which makes this super clear.
And this integrated version.
What I would say is you can'tactually be a fully integrated
masculine leader in my book ifyou don't have access to your
(36:25):
inner feminine, just like youcan't be a fully realized
feminine leader, I think if youdon't have a certain capacity of
masculinity inside and this isthe big thing we're learning to
do now as men that, yes, I canhave drive, I can have goals.
There's incredible things Iwant to create or serve ways.
(36:47):
I want to serve people in theworld, and if I am doing that at
the expense of my own body, I'mstill playing the old way.
Yeah, I'm still playing by theold rules.
So this knowing of I have aninner system, an inner feeling
state, and call it feminine orwhatever you want, but that it's
(37:07):
.
You can't always be in theseason of build, it's not always
summer, but that it's.
You can't always be in theseason of build, it's not always
summer.
Sometimes we have to slow downinto fall and winter and restore
ourselves, take care of ourbodies, bring pleasure into our
bodies, not be totallygoal-oriented.
Connect with our friends, ourfamily, our children, and this
(37:31):
is a high order demand, in asense, that not a lot of men
have figured out how to do.
How can I be kick-ass in mycareer but not be neglecting my
child?
So I'm not raising another sonwho, 30 years from now, ends up
in a men's group and says, yeah,my dad was never around, I had
to figure everything out myself.
How do we do both?
(37:52):
I think that's a big part ofwhat we're talking about here,
and what I've just seen is asmen make this realization and
actually realize.
The great thing about touchingyour own inner feminine in a
sense is you realize.
I think this is so great forgender dynamics.
It's just as powerful as themasculine.
(38:13):
I think you're all tough as men.
Women can wipe a man out ifthey want.
They always know how to takecare of him, in a sense, and we
think in that early masculinemachismo, domineering sense like
leading is the bravest thing.
Surrendering is unbelievablycourageous.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
When you just fully give your trust to someone, that
is an unbelievably bold andcourageous act of leadership, in
my viewpoint, and as menexperience that inside, it
changes them outside.
And then it changes how theylead in the world, because
they've actually had theexperience of what it means, in
(38:58):
some sense, to surrender, to beheld, to not be the one holding
it all together.
And when you've had thatexperience inside, it changes
how you care for and can leadpeople on the outside.
So I think it's incrediblyimportant to realize it's way
more nuanced than I'm a man.
I got to just be in mymasculine.
(39:19):
You're a woman you just got tobe in your feminine.
These are energies we all getto play with.
Yes A full, healthy human beinghas to be cultivating and taking
care of both.
And when men don't their bodiesfail and they pay for it, it
does absolutely show up in ourbodies.
For sure, and I was doing somework with Owen Marcus and with
(39:43):
his MELD group and really thatwas my first deep experience
with somatic work and it wasvery powerful to realize and
understand how much of thisenergy that I'm holding and that
we tend to hold as men like toyour analogy as a young child
and having having being upsetand told okay, you can't be
angry, and they and we hold itin and we tend to do that.
(40:05):
But I recognize that even moretoday, as I get close to
creeping up here to being 59,how often I'm holding my breath
and I go that's interesting,what's happening there for me?
Why am I holding my breath?
What's causing this?
And sometimes it is just ahabit, but more often than not
there's something around that'sa trigger, small or big, that
(40:26):
it's happening and that's mybody's reaction to it.
And so getting in, just doingit, talking about what you've
been saying, all this wholeconversation is really helping
us understand how to utilize allaspects of the energies that we
hold in our bodies versus justtrying to be the singular, less
dynamic individual.
Yeah, it's about another way tothink about this is I think one
(40:55):
of the new skill sets andcapacities that's incredibly
important for us men tocultivate is fluidity, the
ability to shift back and forthas needed because we're able to
actually be more effective inthe world.
That's the funny thing too,guys don't realize is you will,
in the end, get more done.
One of the myths I see so manymen I work with and I've fallen
(41:17):
prey to it too fall for over andover is oh, there's something I
want to do in the world.
I'm having a hard time doing it.
I need to set better goals andpush myself more, when in fact,
what's actually happening istheir nervous system is
dysregulated, burnt out,overwhelmed, and so, no matter
how much you try to push or goalor structure, you know what?
(41:46):
Maybe I need a little moreconnection in my life.
Maybe I should join a men'sgroup, maybe I should get into
some therapy, maybe I shouldstart sleeping more, stop
drinking so much, and ournervous system comes back to a
place of stability andregulation Almost inevitably.
(42:09):
It's not that we have to forceourselves.
There's an impulse to takeaction again.
There's just oh, now I havesome energy and I want to do
this thing and I start doing it.
And a lot of men don't stop todo that part and will keep
trying to push themselves withstrategy and planning and goal
setting.
Oh, and I need this planner orthis framework or getting things
done, and they're justrearranging decks on the deck
(42:31):
chair, totally ignoring thestate of their body and nervous
system underneath.
Yeah, completely agree withthat.
That makes so much sense andhappy to see that there's, that
men's work is flourishing againand all the different ways that
it's showing up in varieties,and there's something out there
for some, for somebody, and soif there's a piece of work,
(42:53):
whether you're doing stuff withjason and evolutionary men or
you do our work or somebodyelse's work, there's.
There is no lack of men'sgroups for you to get involved
with, and I think there's.
So that's where the most powerresides is being around other
men.
It's how we learn healthymasculinity is by being around
other men and getting anopportunity to model what's
(43:14):
before us and of everything thatwe spoke about today, jason,
and maybe there was something wedidn't get a chance to touch on
.
What would be the takeawayyou'd want our listeners to have
yeah, don't do it alone.
As I say, the power of communityis building resilience in your
life as men.
So a buddy of mine, another man, told me community is immunity.
And this is my message to allthe bravado kind of men who are
(43:38):
still this current out there,especially now that, oh, we
tried the soft thing and itdidn't work, so we got to go
back 50 years to the tough thing.
And the message I just want toget out to you guys is I don't
care how tough you think you are, how much power you have in the
world right now, there will bea day where your body will fail
you, where there will besomething you want to do and
(44:00):
your body will not be able to doit in that moment.
And that is the moment where youare going to get confronted
first hand, right in your face,with what kind of community and
connection have I cultivated inmy life and they have done
plenty of research studies withpeople who are in the terminal
(44:20):
stages of their lives.
They're about to die, and theone thing they talk about is
always I wish I had spent moretime with people that I care
about.
It's not I wish I'd done thisgoal or done this thing or
whatever.
It's man, I didn't spend enoughtime with the people I care
about.
It's not I wish I'd done thisgoal or done this thing or
whatever.
It's man, I didn't spend enoughtime with the people I cared
about in my life, inrelationships or love, whatever
you want to call it.
(44:41):
In a lot of ways, I think that'sreally the only thing you get
to take with you after death.
So something like a men's groupis a great place to start to
reformat and be like yournamesake.
It's a revolutionary actagainst culture to say you know
what?
No, we can be allies for eachother.
As men, we don't have to holdthis stuff in, and in fact, when
(45:01):
we do that, we become strongerand more resilient and, like I
said, you can get more stuffdone.
I've gotten way more done sinceI've been in men's groups than
before.
Absolutely what a beautiful wayto wrap up today's
conversations.
I want to say once again Jason,thank you so much for coming
here and helping us really breakfree from these outdated and
old paradigms, to really startto reclaim our vitality, build
(45:25):
deeper connections andrelationships with ourselves and
especially with others.
And so if men are interested ingetting a hold of you and
joining and participating inyour work, what's the best way
for them to do that?
Yeah, easiest way to keep upwith me is just head over to my
website at evolutionarymen.
You can see my programs, mypodcast retreats, all that kind
of good stuff Outstanding.
(45:45):
I'm going to make sure that, aswell as wherever else that
you're hiding on social media,to make sure folks get an
opportunity to reach out to you.
I want to say once again, thankyou so much and really enjoyed
today's conversation.
Thanks so much for having me,alan.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Thank you for listening to the revolutionary
man podcast.
Are you ready to own yourdestiny, to become more the man
you are destined to be?
Join the brotherhood that isthe Awakened man at
theawakendmannet and startforging a new destiny today.
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